16: “The Red Dragon and the Gold” (S2E4)

[00:00:16] Hey everybody, I'm Wendy. I'm Veronica and I'm Cassie and this is Dragon Cast, a podcast dedicated to the House of the Dragon. This week we're discussing the House of the Dragon season 2 episode 4, The Red Dragon and the Gold.

[00:00:36] And I'd like to reintroduce Cassie Hatter, my daughter, have to say it. Hi. Cassie previously podcasted with us on our Yellow Jackets WTF podcast where we talked about Lord of the Flies and compared and contrasted that to Yellow Jackets. So welcome back, Cassie.

[00:01:00] Thank you. Good to be here. Tell us how you're liking House of the Dragon this season. I am really enjoying it. I really like what they've done as far as kind of minimizing certain plot lines and emphasizing other plot lines. I agree. It's been fun.

[00:01:18] Yeah, Cassie is also a book reader. I am not. So she knows all the things that might or might not happen. Now we don't know. They've divulged a little bit. So that's good. Yeah.

[00:01:31] I do like the hints that they give to the previews of the next episode. I do like that. Same. I feel like especially for book readers it gives a lot. Yeah.

[00:01:45] I usually say I'm not going to watch the previews for the next episode and then I can't stop myself when I do it. Same. I'm not good at resisting spoilers. I listened to book talk even when I hadn't actually read yet just because I wanted to know.

[00:02:02] I edited it on fast forward so I can't really hear any of the details such as sacrifice. Yeah, so if you guys ever want to take something out you should probably mark it and tell me because otherwise it's going to be in there. That's good to know.

[00:02:16] That's good. So the very brief synopsis that I got from HBO this time says in Rhaenera and Damon's absence, Rhaenys tries to study the Black Council as Colmance mounts a campaign into the Crownlands. And they did a change up of the title.

[00:02:38] So the title on IMDb of this episode was A Dance of Dragons, but that's not the title. The title was The Red Dragon and the Gold. So what did you think of that? I'm guessing just IMDb just guessed or something? I didn't even look up.

[00:02:57] I didn't realize that it had been different. I just waited until 9 p.m. on Sunday to see what HBO updated it to. So I didn't even realize there was a difference. So I guess we really can't go by IMDb because they're just guessing at this point.

[00:03:16] Yeah, I mean it was a good guess because we did get the beginning of The Dance of the Dragons. But interesting that they're just guessing. Cassie, you are our guest of honor. Would you like to go ahead first with your first point?

[00:03:34] Okay, my first point is actually a reference to Fallout. Sorry, I'm a super nerd. And it's the idea that war never changes. And I really liked when towards the beginning of the episode, Rhaenys is talking about, you know, like when did it start? When did the war start?

[00:03:51] What are we going to remember? And I think that it's something that we saw on Game of Thrones and we're seeing it in House of the Dragon. And I think it's a really good, like, I guess, reflection on all war in general.

[00:04:07] And I really like how she went into, you know, when did this really start? Did it start when blood and cheese killed Jhaerys in his bed? When Aemon killed Luke, when Luke took Aemon's eye or was it even before that? Was it when Allison married Viserys?

[00:04:21] Was it when Viserys chose his son over Emma and let her die like that? And then for Game of Thrones, right? Like the War of the Five Kings is where we kind of start with everything in Game

[00:04:32] of Thrones, where, you know, was it the death of Robert Baratheon? Was it when Joffrey killed Ned? Was it the death of John Aaron or when Robert married Cersei when Kat married Ned? Like it's just really interesting how you can look at all of these things.

[00:04:47] And in the vast history, like no one really cares. No one really cares what started it. Everyone just cares that everything is fire and blood now. That's a really good point. I mean, if Robert had only realized that Leanna wasn't kidnapped and actually loved

[00:05:04] Rhaegar, and maybe they could have somehow communicated that to people. Maybe all of that wouldn't have happened in the first place. Well, and it's also like, like, I don't know. I always want to blame Allison for everything. I know that's like unhealthy and toxic.

[00:05:22] But like, you know, when Allison was first kind of ordered to court. Runiera's father, like she could have just told her near. You could have just said something. Right. So it's not just like the actions, but it's like the lack of action, the inactions.

[00:05:39] Or like Ned not telling anyone about John or Ned like admitting to Cersei that he knew what he knew, like, you know, that guy, very dumb at the end. But all right. I feel like that's a really good point.

[00:05:56] And I think there was another piece in the sub with so Cassie, if it's OK for me to jump in and add on to that, that I feel like is that same theme is the discussion

[00:06:07] that Allison had with Laris and sort of this idea of like, it really doesn't matter. It doesn't matter why what his intentions were because this has already started. Those the importance of the services intentions died with him. I love that line.

[00:06:25] I just I feel like that's very consistent with sort of this theme of like, it really doesn't matter these little minuscule details of what started something or what the previous king's intentions were. It's it's like you said, it's sort of like it's what's happening now.

[00:06:42] It's the dragons and the fire and there's no going back from it. All that matters is the current reality of the realm, which is black versus green. Right. Yeah. Did you think when she was saying that did you feel like she was

[00:06:55] maybe even talking about herself a little bit, like her intentions of telling everyone what he said, even though we all know now that it was a mistake? Yeah, I think it's almost like she's convincing herself. That's exactly what I think a lot of this discourse with other people

[00:07:13] is more about her having a out loud conversation with herself, trying to rationalize things. And that was a rare moment where I felt like Laris was being genuine, not certainly not in the beginning of the conversation.

[00:07:29] But at that point when he agreed with her, I thought that was a rare sincere moment because we don't see many of those from Laris slimy Laris. I agree. I feel like he felt less slimy this episode than he normally does.

[00:07:44] Not that he was like likable or anything. I still didn't really want him. I would not have wanted him entering my bed chambers, but. But he felt less slimy. And I think it was probably because of that, because he was being a little more

[00:07:59] real and you could believe him. And I also think it's, you know, like war doesn't care if you're rich or you're poor. It doesn't matter that you're what is he considered the master of? He's not the master of secrets, right?

[00:08:13] They made a master of whisper. Master of whisper. Yeah. And I it's just like. I think he realizes at this point, if there is war, he's not going to be safe either. Yeah. I know it is. Yes, evidenced in this episode. Yeah. All right, Veronica. Yeah.

[00:08:36] I want to talk a little bit about what I titled the continued haunting of Heron Hall, but really just Damon sort of dealing with the consequences of his mind as he was at Heron Hall and that opening scene of him.

[00:08:56] Seeing young Reneira on the throne and approaching her and, you know, cutting her head off at literally her crown falling at his feet. This episode, I do think did a lot of very like heavy handed symbolism, but I thought it was nice sort of showing.

[00:09:16] I guess another piece of Damon like showing he's been very domineering and sort of do what I want and get what I want throughout the whole series so far. And we're finally seeing that that actually is taking a toll internally.

[00:09:33] Like he's not just letting it all slide off. And I think we're seeing that through his experience at Heron Hall. And it's still not clear to me like we finally really properly met Alice Rivers as he wandered through Heron Hall.

[00:09:51] And it's still not clear to me how much of what's happening to him is her doing some sort of manipulation versus just Heron Hall in of itself. I mean, she mentions that he's been sleeping. The bed he's sleeping in was made from a heartwood tree.

[00:10:11] And so like that in of itself is probably not great for him having good dreams. But then obviously she gave him some sort of potion, which sort of drove me crazy that he just took right away. It just didn't seem right. I would say there were several again.

[00:10:31] And I think this is a theme for this season. There were several moments for me that I just had to like not think about too deeply because they bother me like Reneara last episode sneaking into King's Landing. Like this felt like another.

[00:10:46] I don't really believe that he would have drank this drink right there. But I'm OK with like the experience that we're getting because of it. The only thing I thought is he just doesn't seem to care about anything at this point. So I'm thinking maybe he didn't care.

[00:11:02] That's true. But previously he wouldn't even eat peas because he said they could be poisoned. And now he's just downing what some witch is making in our kitchen. Like what? Yeah, that's bizarre. We are feeling he's just kind of like.

[00:11:19] I don't know teetering on an edge of like either I'm going to kill my wife, behead her and take the throne or maybe I just kill my I don't know. I don't know what he's thinking, but I definitely get weird vibes from that.

[00:11:32] Yeah, I think he's teetering on the edge of things and trying to figure out what to do, and he's not doing any of it very well. It I see. I was very frustrated with his arc because he's sitting at Heron Hall where no one is and playing King.

[00:11:52] And meanwhile, his kin is dying, dueling dragons and dying. Yeah. He could have changed that outcome if he had been there with Rhinies. Or if there had just been any communication to know, hey, like let Kristen cool take this castle.

[00:12:14] I'm gathering a big force and then we'll go. Smashing, right? He's not even responding to re-education. Right. Yeah. And I'm so bothered that it's Heron Hall of all places too. Like it's a half it's a crumbling castle. Yeah, you don't need a dragon to guard that.

[00:12:31] Right. And there's no one there. No, and I think Alice Rivers called it like he's hiding from his wife. You don't want to deal with what's going on, but like there are things to do, dude.

[00:12:46] The only thing I can think of, and this is absolutely not knowing any of the looks is that maybe we're going to see a redemption arc in Damon for the rest of the season. I'm I that sounds good to me. I don't know. I would hope so.

[00:13:03] Like putting book knowledge aside, like I feel like that's the point of what they're building to write. Like why else go through all of this like guilt? Like we saw the reneer scene that I already mentioned, but also like

[00:13:17] we saw him sort of seeing himself in Amond as he's following what he thinks is Amond going through the halls and it turns around and it's just himself wearing an eye patch. So he's having a little bit of guilt, I think of like realization like

[00:13:32] I'm the idol that my nephew sort of became. And then he also saw Lena. Yeah. Yeah, definitely probably fear of him, too. I mean, Amond is nothing to turn your nose at. And so it's hard for me to imagine sort of going through all this

[00:13:54] guilt journey without a redemption arc after. But again, we're talking about a show where there aren't a lot of heroes. And so that might just be my hopefulness that wanting there to be a hero redemption arc. And they might deny that to us.

[00:14:09] Given what the show is and wouldn't he be a terrible king? The first thing he does is tell poor Oscar Tully that he should just kill his grandfather and take his you know, take his house. I'm like, oh, that kid's a red shirt.

[00:14:29] I mean, do you think that's going to win your popularity with the people that you want to go to battle with you? Like he would be a terrible king. Yeah, it doesn't care at all. I did find that scene like weirdly comical.

[00:14:48] Like him basically, you know, drugged off of this drink and unsure where he is and just completely incoherent. But these people are all terrified of him. So they're just having to like cater to him and no one can actually say anything like, are you OK?

[00:15:04] They might lose their head. So I found that somewhat comical. I loved the scene when he sees his wife, his his wife that passed walking and it's just a servant who looks like nothing like her. They're all just staring at him, staring at her like,

[00:15:23] I guess we just move on from this. Yeah, right. It was our. There's probably a lot of that, right? Especially with the Targaryens, because they have a mad streak in them. Yeah, so there's probably yeah, a lot of just. OK, that's just the Targaryens.

[00:15:41] Oh, one in every three of them is born crazy, right? Yeah, I'm going to talk a little bit about Allison. You can see that Allison is really thinking a lot about the seris in this episode. She mentions him several times.

[00:15:58] She's talking to several people about what his intentions were. And I think when she comes to that point with Laris, where she says it didn't really it doesn't really matter at this point. I think that's her coming to the realization that she's got to put that

[00:16:13] behind her and keep moving forward on the course that she's on. She had the little stone dragon that was broken. The seris had dropped it just in the manner that she dropped it in this episode, and she had had it repaired for him when they were, I guess,

[00:16:34] in their recording phase. Wow, I didn't realize that was that same piece. Yeah. And I think is it you that, Cassie, I think you and I talked about it that that was representative because we see some dragons hurt in this episode as well.

[00:16:51] That might have been me or maybe dad, I don't know. So I thought that was really representative of what was happening. I was annoyed with Allison with her conversation with Aegon, where she's like, you've no idea the sacrifices that were made to put you on the throne.

[00:17:13] And I thought that was like a great quote, but I also think it's crap because it's like literally all because of her and her like she had she just had to tell people that that's what her husband said on his dying, you know, on his deathbed.

[00:17:30] The one word that he uttered that she understood as he's like in the throes of dying and she has to tell people that he said the word Aegon. He wanted him to be she could have just kept it to herself.

[00:17:41] And then nothing would have none of this would have happened. I think it would have happened anyway. I think it would have still happened. I think it could have happened. But like also it might not have like Raniera and Damon could have come

[00:17:54] to King's Landing and taken over and booted Otto because he was the old hand. He didn't need to be the new hand, regardless of who the new king was. I just feel like she put herself in a position where she. Didn't have to be there.

[00:18:09] And I also think for her to talk about sacrifice is interesting because it's the same thing she talks about when Luke takes Aiman's eye where she says, you know, where's duty or sacrifice to Raniera? And it's interesting because like Allison did sacrifice a lot.

[00:18:25] But the biggest thing she sacrificed was her relationship with Raniera. And again, like it all comes back to she's listening to the men in her life. I don't think that's fair. She sacrificed her entire life. She didn't want to marry the Saras, an old man.

[00:18:42] She I think could have gotten around that though. Like I do think she could have if she had told Raniera that her dad had pitted her to marry her dad. Like I think there could have been some work around. I don't think so.

[00:18:55] She was Otto's puppet at that point. There was she did not have the option of saying no to that. That's my that's just my opinion. Like I think she did sacrifice a lot. I mean, she was the Saras's nursemaid.

[00:19:10] She was the Saras's wife and the mother of his children, right? Four children. But the problem is that she didn't present Otto and Viserys for putting her in that position. She resented Raniera. Yeah, like to me, that's the problem.

[00:19:25] I absolutely with what you're saying, Wendy, like she's a victim. She had to sacrifice a lot for this life. She felt forced to live. And I don't think you're wrong. Like I do think she very much felt forced into it. She resented Raniera, had more choices.

[00:19:42] But to me, the problem is, yeah, that she resented her friend and that she hid it from her friend that she was going to her father. Like, can you imagine your mother just died tragically? Your best friend can really relate to you

[00:19:58] because she also recently lost her mother. You've confided in her your struggle. And then you find out the entire time she's been moving in on your father. Like, that's pretty difficult. Yeah, it's not that she courted Viserys or that she married him

[00:20:16] because like Otto told her what to do when she did it, but she could have told Raniera. They were best friends and Raniera as the princess would have had sway. And it's the fact that like you didn't want to open your mouth then

[00:20:28] when your best friend, which I don't know if anyone else is in on this theory, but like they looked like they were soulmates when they were younger. Like there's definitely a vibe of like they could have just grown grown old and been happy together.

[00:20:41] Yeah, but you don't want to open your mouth then, but you want to open your mouth when Viserys is dying and it only benefits you in an obscure way because even she knew, right, that her son shouldn't be king. She knew he would be a terrible king.

[00:20:56] She even tried to and he never asked for it. So for her to say, do you know what? What? That's exactly. It doesn't mean anything to him. It was so unkind to Aegon and like Aegon's a little shit. Like he was a terrible child and teenager.

[00:21:14] Obviously, he didn't have people really paying close attention to parenting him. But he did not want to be king. Like he was hunted down and told this is your duty. You have to do this or your half sister will kill you and all your siblings.

[00:21:30] And so he said, all right, I'll try to do this thing. They dragged him out of the step, I think. Yeah, for her to be like to put that on him, her actions and the actions of the council for her to act like he somehow

[00:21:43] like owes them for their sacrifices, like he's making the sacrifice. And you know, and I think that bothers me. Just shut up and listen and don't do anything. And like to not recognize his, I know everyone on the greens feels like they're unraveling right now.

[00:22:04] And it's very hard when you're unraveling to recognize that. But that's that's her job as the parent, I think, to suck it up a little bit and like not put it on your child in that way. And so I think that really bothered me with her this episode,

[00:22:21] the way that she did that to him. And I think she's going to feel the guilt of it when she finds out what happens. And I think she did the same thing to Helena with Jiharis.

[00:22:31] She like was trying to make Helena talk to her about seeing her with Cole. And then Helena is just like, I forgive you because Helena doesn't want to talk about it either. No one wants to listen to Alice and feel bad about what she's done.

[00:22:42] Because clearly she doesn't feel that bad about it. Like she tries to confess to her father about her and Kristen. And he's like, I don't want to hear about it. And then she goes and does it again. Yeah.

[00:22:56] And as I've said before, like I want I wish I could be happy for her to be with Kristen because my God, like she literally had an old man who was wanting like forcing her to bear children for him. Like she deserves that joy.

[00:23:11] But it's so hard for me to feel any happiness for her when like she just so terrible. I don't think he's going to find joy when he's there. Yeah. Did we? Because Kristen's my last big point that I wanted to talk about.

[00:23:27] But for Allison, did we are we assuming that that's an abortion that she's doing? I assumed that that she's pregnant because I thought it was moon tea. Yeah, because I thought it was moon tea, but it's not moon tea because that's not really the way moon tea acts.

[00:23:44] And she's like clutching her stomach and making a big deal about it, which means that she's because I think like in Game of Thrones, they kind of mimic the medieval world where you didn't really realize you were pregnant until you could kind of feel it.

[00:23:57] And so that's just very interesting that it got that far for her unless she's not been taking moon tea after all of her escapades, in which case that's an irresponsible Taoist. I was having a hard time understanding the timeline

[00:24:10] of how she would be far enough along to know for sure she was if it's actually like a full abortion tea versus just like quick plan B, which seemed like the moon tea that season one. Well, in the timeline, she says it's only been a couple of weeks

[00:24:29] since Viserra's past, which is like, OK, maybe like three to four weeks, like so a month, which maybe even six weeks if it was six, yeah, you would know, but like you would have missed her period. And yeah, I took it.

[00:24:46] That they wanted us to think that she was pregnant and was ending her pregnancy. And she seemed to be in discomfort. She was sweating. She was. Yeah. Yeah. She was just again, like I know she was has been acting so rash in her.

[00:25:09] Like they're not being very careful. Her and Kristen Cole, obviously people barging in on them. But then, you know, this episode, she left her potion out for Laris to stroll in and right, right. She's just not thinking right. And it makes it makes sense like there's a war

[00:25:27] and she's really dug herself. Yeah. And she's the queen. So all she would have to do is if somebody knocked on her chambers is say, oh, wait, let me move that. But she doesn't maybe she doesn't care who knows what. I don't know. Yeah.

[00:25:44] Or maybe she just assumes Laris knows. Yeah, that's true. I would assume. Probably no point trying. I mean, Laris knows everything, right? That was all I had for Allison. Cassie, what's your next point? Mine was Kristen Cole, the kingmaker. Yeah, let's hear it. I love the nickname.

[00:26:05] I love how much I hate him. I think he's a great character. I think, oh, what's his name? Fabian Frankie, Frankle. Is that his name who plays him? Is stellar, stellar cast. Yeah. And this isn't like a spoiler. I just like a very brief reference to the books.

[00:26:26] Like so Kristen, the books had more vague reasons for like doing everything that he did. And I feel like in the show, he has more concrete reason of just like at first, he does everything for Reneira and then he just does everything for Allison.

[00:26:40] But not for the good of the realm. Yeah. Which I think is interesting and interesting quality in a kingmaker is someone who's not in it for the realm at all. And I think it's really interesting too that he's

[00:26:55] the hand of the king and the leader of the Kings guard, I think, which I didn't I don't I'd have to go through like the books and stuff because I don't think that's ever been done before or had been done since.

[00:27:07] We talked about that on the podcast and Rene gave another example. Was it Tyrion? No, it was I'm blanking. Barristan, so yeah, Barristan. Oh, yeah, Tyrion came along. Yeah, it was both for Danny. But that was also when she wasn't really sitting. Yeah, that's what I mean.

[00:27:26] Close to the iron throne. They were just trying to be the usurpers. Yeah. And I I really enjoy that at this point, Kristen is just like not respected by a lot of people. Like he's not respected by like Allison really doesn't respect him. Like she just doesn't.

[00:27:44] Like I think she cares about him obviously. And I I love what Veronica, you said about, you know, like she deserves a little bit of normal like she deserves someone who cares about her. Oh, but he was just not the person. But she doesn't respect him.

[00:27:57] Her brother doesn't respect him. His guys don't respect him like the scene in the last episode where I think they're talking about, oh, you know, no one in the Kings guard can lay with a woman and they're all laughing at him because everyone knows.

[00:28:12] And I just think it's really befitting that he's just so not respected and kind of like thrown to the side when people don't immediately meet him. I am going to be very upset when he gets all the credit for saving Aegon, if that happens.

[00:28:28] I think he's going to get a lot of the blame for him. I think he should. But everybody in his care doesn't do well. You know what? I think it's so interesting about what you just said about like the disdain that everyone who's close to Cole has.

[00:28:45] But I think his like broader reputation through the realm is like shining. Oh, yeah. Listened to the way like the small council was laxing poetic about him in front of Aegon and and that idea of him having the name

[00:28:59] Kingmaker, like if you don't know him personally, I think you think he's like this great guy, but then everyone who actually is like directly around him sees the truth that he's just a petty man on a lifelong revenge tour.

[00:29:19] I think the ones who respect them are Aamond and Aegon because they want action right now and he's giving them that. He was also like the only father ish figure I think they had growing up. Like he trained Aamond, which yeah, like that's your father figure. Yeah.

[00:29:38] Oh, for Veronica. I think I'll just carry on to the Sir Crispy Cole topic. I'm really banking on make him getting crispy at some point. And I thought what I liked was episode for him is him starting to have to

[00:30:00] really like we've seen him and Allison start to crack the last couple episodes. But I think we really saw him having to stomach the reality of what this were. He's helped start is going to be.

[00:30:16] And I think you could see it first when he had that beheading scene of Lord Darkly, I think even though he tried to act like those comments weren't penetrating him, I think they were. I also encourage everyone to go back and just laugh at that.

[00:30:32] The way that he lops that head off, I don't know. I watched it like three times and giggled every single time. I don't think I've ever giggled at like a beheading scene before, but he's just so funny like the movement he does.

[00:30:45] I know this is audio, so you can't see me acting this out for Wendy and Cassie right now. So I'll just tell you to go rewatch it and get a laugh at that. But. Beyond that, I mean, just him sort of waking up on the battlefield

[00:31:02] and seeing the distract the destruction post dragons tearing everything up. And I think in that moment he's realizing like, oh, I started something that I didn't quite realize was like this because he's been in wars before, but he hasn't seen

[00:31:23] the destruction of dragons fighting each other and decimating whole battlefields of men. I said, I'm wondering too if he's realized like just how much of like a detriment Aegon is going to be to his own cause.

[00:31:39] Because I think like, I mean, they didn't expect him to be there. They had Vagar on standby, but I think like Aegon being there kind of ruined it. And I think that was part of Kristen Cole's like, oh my God.

[00:31:52] But also how could they not expect him to be there? But also Kristen is the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard, whose only job is to protect the king. And he's the hand of the king and his king just went rogue. And that Chris. Yeah.

[00:32:13] That toasty like and this is coming off of just losing a member of the royal family. So, you know, his track record is not looking good for Crispy. No, I mean, you could see it all over his face as he walked up

[00:32:29] to Aegon laying there of just like, oh, I have messed up so badly. And like, I'm just curious what he's more scared of returning. Like, is he more scared of Allicent or everyone else?

[00:32:45] Because like, I can't imagine having to go face her if I was him after all of this. And then I feel like there's another part of me that just thinks he's just acting. He's not thinking he's just acting because when,

[00:33:05] you know, if he thinks then we get those long moments where he doesn't seem to be able to function. Yeah, he just keeps moving. And that's why I think he wants to go and fight because that's what he knows. Yeah, I think you're right.

[00:33:23] I think I think similar to what we're seeing, like I think we're just watching the slow disheveling of Allicent and Kristen throughout this. I mean, I feel like every time they came back to Allison this episode, her hair was a little bigger and more frazzled.

[00:33:40] Yeah, and I feel like every time we came back to Kristen, like he was a little more dead and scared in his eyes. Yeah. And I think they just both thought this was going to be a bit simpler

[00:33:53] than it has been and they have complicated things even more than they needed to be, I think. And so I'm thoroughly enjoying watching them unravel, given that I am very much team black and not thrilled with them and think they're getting their due.

[00:34:09] But I thought it was interesting that Cole was the one who just kept plowing ahead against everybody else's inclinations or, you know, they were all tired. He didn't care. He was rousing everybody we're going to attack. But yet at the very end, it was Allison's brother.

[00:34:31] It was Gwane who was leading the charge after Rhaenys and Mailies landed right on top of the castle, creating a breach. And it was Gwane who was leading the forces through the breach to what I can only assume

[00:34:48] would be a victory over what I don't know, a burning hole in the ground at that point. But they were and not Cole, who probably would have liked to have been that person doing that. Yeah, I'm very curious to see what what Gwane's character is going to do,

[00:35:08] because he's been our sort of the person following Cole around and seeing like he seems to be the one really seeing what's going on and seeing through this guy where other people are for some reason still following him.

[00:35:24] I'm curious if there's going to be some sort of bigger like are we building to some bigger conflict between those two? Oh, I think so. Yeah. Or is Cole just going back to King's Landing and Gwane is going to you know, lead the armies like I don't know.

[00:35:41] Yeah. I think Cole's been good at getting rid of people who would make his intentions and his actions and his and actions like obvious like the Eric sending him like that was a doomed mission. That was never going to be successful.

[00:35:59] Kristen Cole did not think that that that he was going to be able to kill Raniyra, but he knew that that was the one person who knew that he wasn't where he was supposed to be when Jhares was killed.

[00:36:09] I don't know if Eric had gotten in that room 60 seconds later, they would have succeeded. Like they came close. I mean, they got right up to the queen. But there was no way he was going to come out like he might have killed Raniyra. I can see that.

[00:36:24] But there's no way he was getting out of that. Oh, no. That was a suicide. So there was no there was there was going to be no glory or no victory for him.

[00:36:31] He was just going to be right to half of them a kin slayer and to half of them like because Raniyra dying wasn't going to end what had already started. I did like at the very end when Kristen's getting up

[00:36:43] and I think he's heading to where Aiman says Aegon is and his you can see his horse. I'm pretty sure it's the same horse just chilling unhurt unburnt. Staying there. I thought he was going to jump on there. I know. I heard any horses.

[00:36:58] The one the one horse to survive the scene. Excellent. I'm OK with it. There's enough animals dying. Step up seriously. Oh my God, it's so bad. I did think Raniy's got a great death for her character. I'm like, I'm ready to talk about it. I know. It's OK.

[00:37:24] I was sobbing ugly tears for the last 10 minutes. Well, I'll dip my toe into that. But that's all I'm doing. I wanted to talk about the bonds that the Targaryens have with their dragons. They really showed that and it's really hard to talk about,

[00:37:46] especially with the ending that we had. And I feel like they did that on purpose, so we would hurt more. Thank you, HBO. That's great. I think they did a really great job of showing that bond that the dragon riders have with their dragons

[00:38:02] and it's pieces that we've seen a little bit of, especially with Rhaenara. I think we saw more than anybody else, but I really liked what we saw. We saw Aegon with Sunfire. And I'm going to say that I've never seen Aegon

[00:38:19] with a look of happiness on his face. Like I saw him with Sunfire. Like we just haven't seen Aegon like that. That's why the only thing that has ever truly loved him. I know, unconditional love. Like I started crying there. And Sunfire just sitting here,

[00:38:40] chilling thinking we're about to go on a little ride. Right. Because Sunfire has never been in battle. Sunfire is not a baby baby, but Sunfire is very young for a dragon. He's a baby. He's Aegon's age. Yeah, was he hatched with Aegon? Yes, he was hatched with Aegon.

[00:38:57] And I know Rhaenie is not here. And if we're getting any of this wrong, Rhaenie, I'm sorry. Grimming at us. No, I believe Sunfire was hatched with Aegon because Aemon didn't, his didn't hatch. Right. And that's how he got Aegon.

[00:39:12] And so I felt like that was the first true smile we saw from Aegon. You can see he and his dragon have a really playful bond. And Aegon doesn't seem to have that with anybody else in his life. And he's embracing Sunfire

[00:39:28] and it was really sweet and precious. And then we see Rhaenie's with Maelis. Yes. And at first she, on first watch, she was like looking back. And I thought it would just this look of joy and love. And I thought at first she must be looking at Coralus.

[00:39:49] But then on second watch, I realized, no, she's looking. She's turning her head to look into the eyes of Maelis. And she says we're off to battle again, old girl. And she just smiles back at her dragon in such a loving way. It was so sweet and precious.

[00:40:07] And even Aemond, we see talking to Vhagar in a similar way too. So it was really nice to see that even though these three dragons that battle it out, you know, they do have that love for their dragons. And it seems like a mutual respect

[00:40:32] just made it all the much harder to see those dragons be hurt and killed. Yeah. So that's it. That's all I got. Back to you, Cassie. I've read the books. So and I mean, everyone knows that at the point of Game of Thrones,

[00:40:49] there are no dragons left, but I think it's like it's really interesting when you're going to I think it's Aegon the Conqueror's dream and the idea that the dragons had to fight each other for the good of their realm.

[00:41:04] I think I can't remember the exact wording, but when Renea is talking and she said she's talking about fire and blood in the prince that was promised and against a common foe and she's talking about all this stuff.

[00:41:16] And it's just like really disheartening to know that like dragons had to be almost extinct for the humans to get it together. Yeah. Yeah. I suspect I guess I don't know, like what would dragons do in the wild?

[00:41:30] Would they fight each other for territory or things like that? Or is it just humankind that has forced them into that activity? I don't know enough about. I mean, we're really making them fight our battles, really. Yeah. I mean, they seem like I think dragons are territorial,

[00:41:54] but they do seem to coexist in a pretty small area around Dragonstone, even ones that don't have riders. And so that makes me think they're not. They don't need like huge solitary territories. Right. And these are all that seem like they're like immediately ready to attack each other.

[00:42:13] These are all three dragons that would have known each other. What else do you have, Cassie? I really liked the I just wrote Bay and Jay with a heart, Bayla and DeSeris. I really enjoyed their dynamic with them at the,

[00:42:33] I guess the War Council before Reneer came in, I think he was being kind of awful to Reneerah. But I really do enjoy their energy and I think they seem like so well matched. And I think it's going to be interesting watching that

[00:42:49] develop and see how that's going to because we already know that Bayla is a very capable dragon rider. Oh, yeah. And I think it's going to be really interesting to see how that serves the fight. Yeah, I agree. They're getting their taste of being grownups.

[00:43:07] Yeah. I thought it was cute to see them like trying to control that council and really frustrating how poorly it was going for them. That they both have. Councils are terrible. Terrible councils, you know? I do think the actions of the Green Council.

[00:43:25] So these are people that have said we're going to back Reneerah and they're still not OK with women being in charge. So it does go back to like the conversation of Allison and Laris and sort of the even all the way back to the Council of 101.

[00:43:41] Like I do think even if there hadn't been previous plans by the Green Council to usurp the throne, sort of regardless of what Viserys said on his deathbed or not. But even if that hadn't happened and Reneerah had tried to try to take the throne,

[00:43:58] like I do think there would have been a lot of difficult. Like I don't know if anyone would have. I don't know if war would have broken out because all the dragons would have been united. Like if the House Targaryen wasn't divided,

[00:44:11] I don't think anyone could stand against them. But I think there would have been this kind of like BS going on, right? Like things would not have gone easily for a female leader. And I probably would have had a problem with Daemon, too. Oh, absolutely. Trying to be.

[00:44:31] David will always be a problem. Yeah. As long as there is a even the. As long as he's living and there's a chance he can take the Iron Throne, Daemon will be a problem. Yeah. All right. Veronica. I think I just had like a couple of more points

[00:44:56] sort of jumping off of the Bay and Jay, which I love. But I had just titled my point Summer Children and it was just basically that we have a lot of people trying to be or actually being in positions of leadership who do not have the right experience.

[00:45:16] And so we have Bailyn J. Sue, I think have the right hearts and are brave and will become or could become very strong leaders, but they're young and inexperienced and so people aren't going to listen to them. And then even even Raniera, right?

[00:45:32] Like she is a summer child in that she thinks that she can lead this dance of dragons by just sending a single dragon out and that that's going to be OK. Like I think even she is not thinking very clearly about the best approaches to battle

[00:45:50] because she hasn't had to think about like war planning before. And she has it in. Yeah, I mean, understandably, these are all people that she loves. It's her family. She has to send out on dragons and dragons that they love too. Right. So it makes sense.

[00:46:08] But I think it still fits in that like summer child mindset, right? Because they're focusing on the things they love instead of like the duty and what just has to be done because they've decided to enter into this war

[00:46:20] because she's decided to go down the path of trying to win the throne. And then on on the side of the Greens, we see, you know, Aegon also I think a bit of summer child in his decision to go off

[00:46:36] on his dragon with no one really knowing he's going off to go fight the go fight in this battle. And we see where that gets him as well. And so I think it's just we have not only like brother fighting brother in this war,

[00:46:52] but like young brother fighting young brother. Right. Like no one's been in a war before. They don't have a lot of voices of reason leading them. And one of the few that we had, we just lost Rainey's. I did notice something in that scene with Bela and Jace

[00:47:13] when Rainey's was trying to sort of control the small council with them. The immediate change to the room when Corlys strode in and he immediately took control of that room. And I'm just so curious what's going to happen with his character

[00:47:29] going forward because I could see two different outcomes. Like he's going to obviously be distraught at Rainey's dying. And even though he was there and those Rainey's fully volunteered and went off, like is he going to direct his anger at,

[00:47:49] you know, other people for not having gone with her? Is he going to be angry at Damon who has, you know, remained silent and helped put them in this position? Or is he going to use that anger to help him

[00:48:03] fuel his desire to see them win the war? And is he going to lead the small council, you know, from that to me? That was a bit of foreshadowing with the way he strode in and everyone listened to him. He seems like a vengeance guy.

[00:48:15] Yeah, but who's that vengeance going to be direct at? Everyone or Rainey the Greens? I would think everyone. Yeah. Of the two of them, Rainey's and Corlys, he was the more reluctant to come to Reneire aside. She was really pivotal in him making that decision, I feel like.

[00:48:37] Although he was quicker than her to accept. Her children, which is interesting. Oh yeah. Sometimes they flip flopped on that. But in season one, Rainey's was like pissed at, you know, the strong boys and Corlys was like, look, like obviously, Lane, where's OK with this?

[00:48:55] And it doesn't matter who their blood is. Like history remembers a name. That's his own hubris, though. So sometimes he was surprisingly, yeah, you're right. I guess it was not a defense of Reneire so much as a

[00:49:09] wanting his name and line to live on sort of in that way. I'm going to be really interested to see what Adam and Alan's roles are going to be in this as well. Because the scene with Rainey's like looking at them and figuring out, I think, who Alan.

[00:49:27] I think her looking at him and like realizing exactly who he is and Corlys being like, oh, I didn't think it was relevant or pertinent or whatever. That's going to come back. Yeah. From a non-book reader, I have become annoyed with these scenes

[00:49:43] because they're not giving you enough context to understand why these scenes are important. I took from the last scene that we got that this is Corlys' son. I mean, that's what it seems like, right? Right. Well, they're Hulls. They're Adam and Alan Hull, right?

[00:50:02] So Hull is like Rivers or snow. Yeah, it's a bastard last name for those born on the sea or docks, I think. But I do feel like we've had three scenes with them. Like let's get to it. Yeah.

[00:50:17] Tell us what we need to know and why this is important because I feel like those scenes have just taken you completely out of it. They've done this from the beginning. I feel like this was part of the problem with the white worm in season one.

[00:50:32] I know there were more problems there, too. But I feel like they've done that quite a bit. This season had very random. Where are they going with this? What's the point? Sometimes you'll get a scene like that in an episode

[00:50:46] and you won't know the relevance until later in the episode, but not for episodes in. It's weird. Yeah. And it's one thing to have like a big reveal at the end where you can kind of go back to a couple scenes and be like,

[00:51:00] oh, but like no, not no one because clearly there are nerds like us who will. But I feel like a lot of viewers are not going to go back and look at all of these tiny little scenes when whatever relevance they have becomes apparent.

[00:51:12] And I feel like that's just kind of screen time that they wasted trying to develop something too early. I think it's odd. Yeah. In the show that already has 15 people with names that sound almost exactly the same. Yeah. And a deep, rich history of lore.

[00:51:30] We don't need more things to confuse the watchers that we just don't. You're good. You've hit that and everyone's excited. You have dragons, you have war, you have Targaryens. Like we don't need little small mystery scenes. Like, right? It's weird. It's on the flip side of that, though.

[00:51:48] I do enjoy all the references to like what's going on north of the wall. Mm hmm. Like, because I know that's really not going to have to go anywhere because we don't see that until, you know, 300 something years later.

[00:52:01] But I do like the references to like, you know, the scene in the north. Yeah. The scene in the north and like, you know, do you think they built out this wall? They built this wall just about wildlife.

[00:52:12] Like, and the whole idea of like, you know, we have to unite the realm. The realm has to be united. And I think that's going to be interesting. And I appreciate little things from Game of Thrones.

[00:52:24] Like, I think in this episode, there was a reference of the Stokeworths. Yeah. I believe was Lawless Stokeworths, right? Was going to marry Bron. I did really like that reference to them saying that Castle Stokeworth fell. And I'm wondering if that ever gets rebuilt.

[00:52:42] And if that is maybe why the Stokeworths end up at court in King's Landing instead of on their own. Well, we see their castle in the background in Game of Thrones. Bron and. Oh, yeah. Right. Are walking the coastline and the castles in the background. Here I am.

[00:53:01] So they must have repaired it. Yeah. But when they sack it, they just take it over. Yeah. So I like those the nods to Game of Thrones, but there's never just like a whole scene that's based on a random reference to Game of Thrones.

[00:53:17] Always woven into the other scenes. I thought we're going to get more of a blatant reference in the scene in the north with the like, I don't know why it wouldn't even make sense for that to be a blatant reference, but I don't know.

[00:53:29] I want to mean it honestly bothered me that they had Kreegan acting so sort of knowledgeable and believing so deeply in what's beyond the wall because I felt like I know we're still several generations away from Game of Thrones,

[00:53:47] but I felt like even by this point, the lords of the north would be sort of starting to discount those as old wives tales and still see the importance of like defending the wall because of wildlings and and giants and other things.

[00:54:02] But it surprised me that they had Kreegan sort of like believing in what seemed to be the almost like a wear of the prophecy of like white walkers like that didn't feel it didn't feel right to me. But I don't know.

[00:54:18] It's like the dance of the dragons has anything to do with those things being chalked up to rumors, like with all of the stuff happening in the war. It's also like a different timeline. Yeah, because I think the series is like 170 years before and in the books,

[00:54:36] it's about 300 years before maybe. Huh? I could be wrong on that. I have to go back. I could be wrong on that, but I did think it was kind of odd how like blatant they were about believing in everything beyond the wall. But I did like the nod.

[00:54:54] Yeah, I liked it. It was nice to visit. That's about all I got. We should we should talk about the battle. Yeah, that's I think that's the only thing I even have left. Are you going to be OK? I'll start.

[00:55:11] So it's the battle starts out, it has several different parts to it. They are just sacking houses as they go. And then they're adding those houses to the armies. So they come upon House Darklyn. They sack that castle. Their lord is beheaded by Cole.

[00:55:34] And then it seems like Cole and Aemond are setting a trap. They're purposefully headed towards Rook's Roos to try to get a dragon to come. And they probably don't know which dragon could have been Rhaenara. You know, they don't know where Damon is.

[00:55:55] They could have easily do any of that. They do know Damon's at Heron Hall. Oh, they do. I think they do because Aegon was ranting about it. And so I think that's all the more reason that they knew.

[00:56:05] Yeah, this was a smart trap because they knew they probably knew they wouldn't send Rhaenara and they knew the only other experienced dragon would be Maelis. And I think if if Damon had been close, I don't think they would have risked it.

[00:56:21] And Maelis is the second largest dragon in the world right now. I think she's the second largest like that has a rider. It has a rider. I think they're my. I can't remember where Vermithor fits in sizes, but I think Vermithor is also pretty large.

[00:56:40] And on first watch, I thought that Aegon rushing to the battle was part of the plan, like part of Cole and Aamon's plan. Like I thought they were spurring him on to that action. But then on second watch, I realized that they both seemed surprised

[00:57:02] and annoyed that he came. So I don't think that was part of the plan. I don't think Aamon seemed that surprised because he just looks up and he's like idiot. Yeah. And I almost think like I think Kristen and Aamon were setting the trap for a dragon.

[00:57:18] But I think maybe Aamon kind of figured like, oh, you know, I'll just be here just in case. Yeah. Because I think when. Aegon was talking in the council about wanting to get on his drag

[00:57:30] and I feel like Aamon kind of knew he might not be the most responsible with his decision making then. Yeah. And then I think the things that Allison said to him just absolutely drove him to the action that he took.

[00:57:46] I mean, she was very condescending, just very unsupportive. And she basically told him to do nothing, which of course, he's going to do the opposite of that. I think you see him sitting there drinking and then and then he just takes off.

[00:58:04] Him being drunk and bored is the worst combination. Yeah. Never leads to anything. Yeah. And riding a dragon. I think that Aamon and the small council pushed him to the edge. Alice is what pushed him over. Because that whole high valerian discussion. Oh, my gosh.

[00:58:26] And then I mean, I mean, that was so embarrassing. And then he hears the small council like ranting and raving about the kingmaker and how strong Aamon and Vega are. And then he goes to his room and his mom insults him. And he's like, OK, I'll show them.

[00:58:47] Yeah. Rides off. He also just lost his firstborn. You know, it's not doing well mentally. And I also think again, like it comes to Allison's parenting. Because I think like you're right, she's never been a good model. Well, yeah.

[00:59:03] Well, Viserys was older and kind of crippled, so I maybe give him more of a pass. No, I don't give. I don't give up a pass. No, he wasn't. He let Otto and Allison and Cole raise those boys.

[00:59:18] I want to feel bad for him because towards the end he was kind of like rotting. Yeah. Yeah. Maybe. But yeah, no, you're right. He was of sound mind when he did all that. He could have at least sat and talked to his kids, right?

[00:59:30] Like maybe he couldn't go out and teach them swordplay, but he could have spent time with them and had them be a little wiser, understand a little more about what it means to be a Targaryen ruler with the responsibility. Because even if Rhaenyra was next in line,

[00:59:47] like there's always some chance, like he saw it in his own. Like Viserys himself should never have been king. And so to not plan to train your children right that responsibility, I think that's definitely I'm not going to put that all on Allison. Yeah, it's him too.

[01:00:05] I agree. I can't remember what episode it's from this season where she is talking about what a good leader Viserys was. And it's like Allison, you took the person that Viserys literally raised with all of those ideals. And then you've removed her from the throne.

[01:00:22] Right. She says in this episode, I was hoping you'd be half the king your father was. Yeah, she was making references. And he's shocked at that, that she says that. Well, everyone else is shocked too, because Allison knew he wasn't. She knew he was a rotten kid.

[01:00:38] She knew he was violent and angry. And she still insisted on doing all the things. I'm just going to be an Allison hater. But also, he's been king for a month. Like let's give the kid a chance. No, he's been king for a month in a time

[01:00:54] when you forced him on the throne and began a war like. And he lost his child to that war. Yeah, like I feel bad. Like he's rash and a total shit. And I feel bad for him because. Yeah. What do you expect when that's your upbringing? Yeah.

[01:01:15] OK, keep going. War. Sorry. So I thought it was interesting that the newly fallen houses that they took over were basically, you know, they were in the vanguard. So they're basically dragon fodder, you know, they're in the front

[01:01:35] softening up the battle lines for the rest of the blacks. I mean, the Greens armies. I thought that was pretty awful. And even I think they said it, the people they just took over the dark lands were like in the very front.

[01:01:54] So I guess that's the way it goes. Like that's not good. And it's either that or you're killed on the other end. So yeah. Can we talk about Aegon getting crisped? Oh. Oh, I loved it. I mean, I loved him getting crisped.

[01:02:13] Obviously, I did not love Sunfire getting crisp. No, it was awful. I mean, I didn't like any of it. No, it was awful. No, I think that was the highlight. Aegon looking at his brother thinking, oh, Aiman and Vagar are like here to save me.

[01:02:29] And Aiman's like, nah, this is good. This is a chance. I'm going to say that we're so good. Pretty amazing moment. What? It was so good. The scenes were so good. Oh, these were great. Like that part. Aegon's like he just like scratches out his his breastplate.

[01:02:46] Yes. Yeah. It's just like blood dripping down on everybody. That was just like, did we need that? No, but it was it was incredible. That reminded me so much of Game of Thrones when Dany loses her first dragon in the north. Which one does she lose? Viserite? No.

[01:03:05] Viserion? I don't remember the name, but I remember the scene very vividly. Viserion and Rage all that. Just like dead land. The shock. Yeah. Just like, but like the giant ice spear and the gouts of dragon blood and the. Oh, it was. And I also like, man,

[01:03:23] I don't know how they make these sounds. Like I don't know what kind of like raptor voices they're putting through a generator. But like the screams are so emotional. I think you can find that. Oh yeah. Like somebody with Sunfire because it was like it was like.

[01:03:41] It's not like some sort of be my entire animal in immense pain, which just like I was already I felt like my heart was already wrecked and then those cries. Yes. But I think someone posted about the how they generate the sounds and they

[01:03:59] they'll like mix together like four different animal roars and they'll do different ones. Each dragon like has its unique. Yeah, we'll look that up and talk about it next week. Yeah, that's a really good topic. I did when they were at Rooks.

[01:04:17] Is it Rooks rest or Rooks nest? Rooks roost. Roost. Oh wow, I really wrote that down wrong. When they see Vagar coming and they're like, all right, my Lord, time to get you down below. I sheet man is just an entity. That is an amazing dragon.

[01:04:33] That's a that's bigger than the castle. That's just yeah. And like at the end when Vagar is on the ground spurting the fire and you see that like that like people on both sides are getting smushed. Oh, yeah. The nature of the dragon, like they're not horses.

[01:04:50] They're dragons. No, he squishes like three at a time with with his legs. Vagar looks like something out of Jurassic Park, like that first scene where he's crouched where Aamon and Vagar are in the forest, crouched down. Like it felt like something out of Jurassic Park

[01:05:10] when you see Vagar like start to settle up out of the green. And then yeah, girl. I think it I think I think I think Vagar is female. I said, yeah, I thought I don't know why. No, no, no, because now I think I'm getting it wrong.

[01:05:24] I thought Aamon said something boy, old boy, but I could be wrong. Vagar is queen of all dragons. OK, well, there you are as female. We love girl power. Yeah. Yes. Yeah, I also agree. I thought that scene with Vagar coming from behind the trees was amazing.

[01:05:43] And you're on the vantage point of the very top of the castle. And he's just overshadowing everything. And I feel like that's where Aamon or Aegon must get his confidence. Like Aamon obviously gets his confidence. But I feel like Aegon is just like.

[01:06:01] Like even in his war council, he's like, oh, we have Vagar. We have like, but it's not your dragon, dude. But she's just so massive. Like. Yeah, I can understand you being overly confident just having that one dragon, just massive and monstrous and.

[01:06:19] Oh yeah, amazing because riding that and controlling that, controlling her. I mean, you have to feel like the most powerful person in the land. Yeah. And it's not only that that Vagar is huge. Like she is also experienced. Right. And she's a war dragon.

[01:06:42] The craziest thing to me. Is this giant dragon and the way she keeps sneaking up on her dragons. That's true. This is the second time now that she's just snatched. That's another dragon out of the sky and ninja.

[01:06:58] It's a little department of suspension of disbelief because she's so big, but like maybe that's her her dragon superpower. I'm going to go with this. She's big and stealthy related to the walking dead walkers that just sneak up on you those ninjas.

[01:07:14] You got to look out for them. I'm just going to start picturing her with like a little ninja. Yeah. Outfit around her. So Aemond Dracarys is on both Mellis and Sunfire. Yes. And my question is, won't someone have seen that? Certainly if Aegon lives,

[01:07:37] he probably will remember it because he saw exactly what was happening. Oh, I think that can be explained away. I do too. I think Aemond can be like, oh, I don't know. Or or oh, I was trying.

[01:07:50] Like I knew I had faith in my dragon's aim or like, I think Aemond is going to be able to get around that. You think? And that's assuming that Aegon remembers because he fell a pretty decent way. Yeah. I mean, even if Sunfire was protecting him,

[01:08:05] because I feel like that's kind of the vibe you're meant to get. That last scene of Sunfire, like kind of curled around him, you know? But like even then, he went through a pretty bad trauma. So if he lives, he might not remember.

[01:08:17] And I think also it was like the tangle of the two dragons up there. So for people on the ground, it would be hard to judge exactly. Also, if he remembers, do you really think he's going to cross Aemond again? Even if he remembers or deal with that?

[01:08:35] Or is he just going to shut his mouth and be glad that? Yeah. Yeah. Because otherwise, like he would have died if he is alive. He would have been dead because the other dragon was about to tear him to pieces.

[01:08:52] And so I think that could also be Aemond's like defense is like, look, it was either me do this or me do nothing. And he dies either way. Right. So this was my rationale. Yeah. And I don't think that's the real reason,

[01:09:07] but I think that's going to be really easy to explain in this way. But yeah, I mean, I think if it had just been Mellis and Sunfire, so it wouldn't have been a battle like it would have been over. Yeah, it almost was.

[01:09:21] Once Vagar gets into the picture, Rhaenys is able to kind of get away and I see her heading away and I'm thinking, yes, had a way live to fight another day. And then you can just see the resolve on her face and she turns her dragon around.

[01:09:44] Why? And I just knew it at that point. Well, he's a dragon rider, but that's not going to have a reason for me. Why? Like I can't I can rap like it's hard for me that they didn't send other dragons just to be back up and reserve

[01:09:58] like Baila and Jace don't engage in the battle unless you have to stay in reserve. That's hard enough for me, but it's their children and grandchildren. OK, I can like do the whole mother's heart thing. But why? Like what was the benefit to staying and fighting there?

[01:10:19] What did she like? What would have been the detriment if she had turned tail? I think she hoped to kill Vagar. I think she knew she was I think she knew things were over. You could see it in her face from the moment they are here.

[01:10:35] Yeah, I don't think she thought she thought I'm dying here. And that's what's happening. And so when she started to get away, I was trying to understand is it because she knows that Aiman will come after her and she's going to die regardless?

[01:10:48] And I may as well face it head on and try or. Like could she not have gotten away like is. That's hard for me. Smaller dragons are faster. That's my understanding. And she's experienced. Like just thinking she can outrun.

[01:11:06] And that's what I was hoping and thinking would happen. But as soon as she turned around, I knew what the outcome was going to be. I also think part of it was she was trying to do damage to the

[01:11:19] like I think she was trying to do as much as she could. I don't think she thought she was going to kill Vagar, but like wounding Vagar might have been a possibility. And I think Vagar did get like a tiny a little bit

[01:11:29] like we saw a little bit of landage super hard at that point. Let's think of strength. But are the team green though? A slightly I mean, team black, a slightly wounded Vagar or having Rhaenys and Mellies intact alive? Alive. They fight another day. And that's hard for me.

[01:11:47] And so as much as I loved what the actress got to do in those scenes and the faces she made where you could read so much, it was wonderful. I had a hard time with with the rationale.

[01:12:03] And I think this is very similar to me to to what I already mentioned earlier, like the Rhaenys sneaking into King's Landing, Damon easily sliding into King's Landing. There have been too many of those situations this season that have really bothered me, but because

[01:12:22] the way it's delivered is so like lovely and there's so many high points that continue to forgive it. But I I hope they tighten that up a little bit more. Yeah, I feel like we're going on a path.

[01:12:39] I don't know what the path is, but it feels like we're going on a path. And that was a piece of the path was losing Rhaenys. Right. I think it was a word to lose or I just didn't like the way that they

[01:12:51] like that they could have done that without having her have the choice. Yeah. To run away or stay. You know, she could have been engaged in a fight with Vega the whole time. Yeah, but going out fighting. Was Rhaenys like that was Rhaenys.

[01:13:08] And I think that's what they want us to take away. Yeah, so she died. A dragon rider. She did. Well, and I think Rhaenys knew Malyse wasn't going to outrun Vagar. Like she's faster, but Vagar is sneaky. Vagar is bigger. And so I don't think.

[01:13:26] I think Rhaenys was like, if Malyse is going, I'm going because that's how dragons work in. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. Dragons can get other riders, but riders can't get other dragons. I don't know if they're sticking to that. I think they are.

[01:13:40] I think there's a reference to that in season one, but like. Canonically. If Rhaenys lived and Malyse died, Rhaenys could never ride again. Well, the Saras when Beleriand died, he didn't get another dragon. Well, because that's how it works.

[01:13:59] They're not just like, I mean, they're not obviously they're not horses, but they're almost kind of like. And they're not even animals almost. Yeah, they're like familiar. That's what we're. Yeah, but I know. It's like you and I read the same book about familiars.

[01:14:15] What? Oh yeah, we did. Yeah. And so. Tragic heartbreaking, awful. Rhaenys was one of the best characters. I know like for the past week or two of this show, everybody I know has been saying Rhaenys should have been the queen.

[01:14:39] How different would it have been if Rhaenys had been the queen? And she certainly has given us a queenly presence throughout the whole series. She's been amazing. She doesn't miss step. She's been great. So really upsetting to lose her.

[01:15:01] And I also thought it was really telling and symbolic that she took with her the castle that she was meant to defend because she demolishes her and Mellys demolish that castle on their fall. Who was talk, Veronica? Was it you were talking about symbolism or mom? Yeah, yeah.

[01:15:27] I mentioned that the get go by. I feel like we all have touched on different symbols. And what was it? We were talking about the oh, the toy, the toy dragon. And then I also really liked some of the symbols in Damon wandering

[01:15:43] around, freaking haunted hair and haul him waking up with blood on his hands. I wrote Shakespeare next to that. And I know he's like literal blood on his hands. Yeah, my husband says that there is a rumor, internet rumor. Oh no. That Alice Rivers is Melisandre.

[01:16:03] That is what I told Renny and Boat Talk that that is my I was like, this is my crazy theory. It's probably not true. And she's like, yeah, it's on the internet. I was like, well, at least I'm in a tinfoil hat with other people. Yeah.

[01:16:15] I mean, it's possible, right? Totally. The only thing is that I think we know Melisandre was not born in Westeros. Yeah, but we don't really know if Alice is who she says she is. Yeah, she seems like she was, but who knows? So I thought that was interesting.

[01:16:34] I also noticed in Heron Hall that as one of the scenes where Damon is walking through with is it Simon, that there's a black goat, which is always like a sign of the devil of like Satan or evil. I was wondering why they were lingering on that.

[01:16:50] Yeah, to me, I just think that was a sign that like there's evil in this castle. Should we talk about Amond and his actions at the end? Yeah, which actions at the end? Just standing there over his brother with his sword drawn.

[01:17:07] It was weird when I first saw this scene, it looked like he was going to she this sword. Then Kristen called him out like, are you about to do something with that sword? And then he she's it. But to me, it looked like he was already about to.

[01:17:21] Like, did you think he was about to like make sure Agen was dead? That's what it seemed like. It seems like he was going up to finish the deed. What did you think, Cassie? I thought it was either going to be that or he was because

[01:17:36] Sunfire is not dead at the very end. Like you can still hear him. Yeah. So I thought maybe he was like going to put Sunfire out of his misery, but then also that doesn't make sense.

[01:17:47] So like I feel like that's the only maybe he was going to put them both out of their misery. Yeah. Like also, Amond was hugely embarrassed by Agon in the last episode. Right? Yeah. Yes. At the whorehouse. So yeah. OK.

[01:18:02] Now, I think that was probably on purpose then. I don't know. I think I know I have a problem with Damon and Amond that I want to excuse them for a lot. I don't know.

[01:18:14] I don't usually have a thing for blondes, but these two, their amount of swagger. Like I just yeah, yeah. Oh, love me a Targaryen. I also just love that Amond is just trying to be Damon.

[01:18:27] Yeah. And that's part of what makes him so intimidating is like those similarities. Mm hmm. But I think he's scarier. He's scarier because he's young. But anyways, like I think for some reason is my head like I think he waited when he saw Agon go over.

[01:18:44] I think if he had been a good brother, he would have immediately launched off on Vagart to protect his idiot brother who he knew didn't know what he was doing. But I think he specifically waited to let him get into trouble.

[01:18:57] I do believe that he decided to burn him on purpose as something that he could I think both in his own head as well as to other people sort of claim as just collateral damage. Like I think he's doing some cognitive dissonance even possibly to like convince himself.

[01:19:16] That's why he did it. I have a hard time seeing him just slay his brother Agon with a sword if he was still alive there. So you think if Kristen hadn't interrupted him, he wasn't going to do that? I don't think he was going to.

[01:19:31] I think he was. I think he was considering. But like I think it's reasonable and probably more reasonable to think that he was. But I don't know for some reason, that's not who I've interpreted him to be.

[01:19:43] But I mean, I watched this like four times in the last 24 hours. I only watched it twice. It was tough. But I did think on second watch, it seemed obvious that it wasn't Aiman's plan to try to kill Agon, but he took that opportunity and presented itself. Absolutely.

[01:20:05] You miss 100 percent of the shots you don't take. Yeah, Wayne Gretzky, Michael Scott. All right. What else does anybody have? I'm down to notes. The only other like quick note I had just about that whole scene was I thought it was really a cool juxtaposition of hearing

[01:20:28] Aiman and Rainey's talk to their dragons in the area. And the only non English word that Aigan said to his dragon was jacarice. Everything else he was just saying in in English. And I just thought it was like this other very plain example of how

[01:20:50] sort of unprepared for the life he's been thrust into. Aigan is or was depending on. Yeah, he wasn't raised to be the heir. So when he didn't study and didn't train right, nobody really cared. And then in the first season, you saw lessons with Luke and Jace

[01:21:13] working on their hi-valarian. Yep. Yep. Who are, you know, technically not trueborns if we're being forgetting there. But Agon technically is a trueborn. Right. And doesn't speak it and his whole council recognizes that he doesn't speak it.

[01:21:29] That scene with the council where they all kind of like see that he can't really talk in hi-valarian, I don't know if it's that everyone else can understand hi-valarian or that they just can recognize that he's not capable of like keeping up with it.

[01:21:42] I think that's all it was. I don't know anyone else can speak it. I think it was just very apparent that he was struggling to even put a few words out. And I think Aiman's face spoke volumes about what was actually yeah, not being said by Agon.

[01:22:00] I have a couple of notes. I thought it was interesting that we didn't really get any addition on the introduction with the tapestries. It pretty much ends after the rat catchers are hung. I bet we'll get an update next time though. Yeah.

[01:22:20] The new Kingsguard are like the three stooges. Those are the guys who were trying to take the one guy out, right? Yeah. Oh, you mean Al at the brothel. I thought you meant Al as in dead. That's where my mind is in House of the Dragon.

[01:22:38] I'll take them out. Oh yeah, no, I see. No, but that's what I was talking about. Those are Christian's men who absolutely do not respect him. Now, I don't think they respect anybody. They're like the three stooges of the Kingsguard. They're like banging into each other.

[01:22:52] They don't know how to act. Yeah, yeah. I thought we just had some really pretty, like, I don't know, pretty is the right word, but stunning scenes in general. Like I'm one of the people that like when I listen to music, I don't really hear the music.

[01:23:08] I only hear the lyrics and I think with shows, I'm the same way. Like I'm so invested in the storyline that often you guys are talking about like the scenery. You brought up the beautiful library like five times and I still have

[01:23:20] yet to actually let clock the library. Picture it in your head. No, yeah. But this episode I tried to actually pay attention and was sort of blown away. So in the past, I've really struggled a bit with the CGI, like even really well done CGI and shows.

[01:23:39] It takes me out a bit. And so I sometimes struggle with the dragon scenes, even though it's absolutely well done. Like I can't believe this is what we're getting as far as TV content and not a movie.

[01:23:52] It's still hard for me sometimes, like the scene of Aegon over King's Landing was a little like I didn't like it. I think the close up shots are worse. But I actually like there were some scenes like I already mentioned,

[01:24:08] Vagar in the forest, a lot of the battle scenes. Like I just thought were beautiful and striking when Kristen Cole wakes up and is walking across that battle scene. I thought it was pretty amazing, like when he goes to touch

[01:24:25] what he thinks is a soldier and it just crumbles. Like I felt like some of those moments in this episode were really special and beautiful for once I paid attention to things beyond the storyline

[01:24:38] and thought it was really for the most part really well done and really beautiful. And once I got past that one scene over King's Landing, I didn't think at all about the dragons being CGI.

[01:24:53] I was crying because I felt like a real dragon was dying in front of me. And to me goes pretty far because I normally don't like those scenes, even when other people seem to love them.

[01:25:03] So absolutely kudos to you getting me to feel like a real dragon was dying and then crying over it when it's just a computer generated image. Yeah, crying over CGI dragons. Yeah, that's that's Game of Thrones. That's House of the Dragon. That's what we do.

[01:25:21] I mean, to be fair, I have animal crossing friends that I maybe get sad when they asked to leave my island. So maybe it's not too big of a stretch for me to be crying over characters that aren't real.

[01:25:32] But but yeah, I just thought it was really beautiful. I also think we haven't talked about this yet, but I think it's definitely notable that Rhaenara takes the time to talk to Jace about the song of Ice and Fire and Aegon's dream as her air.

[01:25:52] I really enjoyed that. It was so well done that it was overlaid on those scenes of Targaryens bonding with their dragons. That's when we got that beautiful scene of Rainys and Mellies and of Aegon and Sunfire. And I think overlaid over that, I feel like made those scenes

[01:26:13] which felt so impactful sort of feel even more impactful. Really thinking about the price of what's about to happen and why Rhaenara believes they need to do it. And I think going back to what we talked about at the beginning

[01:26:27] of just like the cost of this war and all that everyone is sort of losing. And I think that partially what Rhaenara is saying is that if it wasn't for her belief in the song of Ice and Fire, she may have decided that this war wasn't worth it.

[01:26:49] And maybe it would be better for her to just acquiesce and go live out her life as a relative of the crown. And she may have done that to protect her children and protect the people that she loves.

[01:27:03] But I think because of the song of Ice and Fire, she feels even more of a duty and responsibility to future generations to do this so that it is worth the risk to her to risk her loved ones, herself, her dragons, her children.

[01:27:26] We see that it she paid off. I mean, it's not a spoiler. We we see her loading the dragons eggs up in episode three. We know those are some of the only ones that make it out. Right. I think it's also interesting that during all the war councils

[01:27:43] and conversations, the idea of we're not going to win just with dragons. Right. Keeps kind of popping up. But I think that's wrong. I mean, it's wrong to think they can do something like they're obviously doing some chess piece moving with armies.

[01:28:00] But I mean, we've already seen the decimation that these dragons cause on a battlefield. There's no it is absolutely comes down to who has the best biggest fiercest dragons. Yeah. That's who's going to win this. I think what you said also rings true to me, Wendy, about Reneira,

[01:28:25] even just her actions in season one. Like when she's initially before she's named air, she doesn't really care about being air. She doesn't really seem to want it. She seems to just want to like live a carefree, happy life.

[01:28:41] I think her only sort of upset feelings around that are just like wishing her father saw her as enough. Right? Like I think she felt sadness at that. But I don't think it was this lusting for power or the crown.

[01:28:57] And it wasn't until he told her the importance of it that she really, I think, took it very seriously. And I think it's why it was such an absolute no brainer for her when Kristen Cole suggested they run away. Because honestly, I think the Reneira before

[01:29:14] sort of being vested with that duty would have at least considered running away with Kristen Cole, you know? And I think that's why it was sort of just like, I absolutely can't. Like this is my duty. No. Right. This is my future.

[01:29:28] And she's already come to grips with that and accepted it. Yeah. And so I absolutely think that's been a congruent through line for her that this is the only reason she's choosing this path. I agree. For the realm. Yeah. All right. Does anybody have anything else?

[01:29:48] That was everything that I think that was literally everything I had written. OK. All right, we're going to have news about House of the Dragon. Cassie, you want to read our first article? Our first articles from Mashable titled was Aemon Trying to Kill Aegon by Sam Hason.

[01:30:07] So Aegon flying his little dragon into battle was never part of the plan. That's clear from the expression on the face of Sir Kristen Cole, Fabian Frankel, when he sees the king flying overhead on Sunfire and even clearer

[01:30:19] when a hidden Aemon mutters idiot as his brother travels by. So the first thing we can say with certainty is that what happened to Aegon wasn't a premeditated murder, but what about an opportunistic one? Sorry. But what about an opportunistic one?

[01:30:35] When Aemon does take to the sky, he flies Vhagar directly at his brother and rain is on my lease as they're locked in a duel. Aegon at first seems relieved, but that quickly turns to terror when Aemon shouts the trademark Dracarys command and Vhagar bathes

[01:30:47] both of them in flames, causing Aegon to plummet out of the sky. At this point, you could still argue that the damage done to Aegon could be an accident. Maybe Aemon thought he had no other choice with the dragon so closely deadlocked,

[01:30:59] but this theory gets scuppered by the episode's final scene. When Cole regains consciousness and goes looking for Aegon, he finds Aemon walking towards his fallen body with his sword drawn, looking as though he's about to strike. But when he hears Cole's voice, Aemon sheaths his blade instead,

[01:31:15] picks up his brother's dagger and simply points to the fallen body before walking away. If Cole hadn't appeared when he did, though, Aemon's intentions seemed pretty clear. He was going to finish Aegon off. Interesting. Veronica, you want to read our next article?

[01:31:29] Yeah. So Emma Darcy was interviewed by Gay Times earlier in June and I found this clip of the interview that was posted on the Instagram reels from Gay Times on the topic of being a beacon for non-binary representation within the TV sphere.

[01:31:48] So I think we've mentioned this before, but Emma Darcy is non-binary because they them and I'm going to read an excerpt of what they said, but I really encourage you to go look this interview up because Emma just delivers the message really beautifully

[01:32:06] and they are so, I think, humble. And you can tell that they carry the weight of this platform really seriously. And so I just thought it was really beautiful. So they the interviewer asked Emma about what it's been like to be this beacon for non-binary binary representation.

[01:32:29] And Emma replies that it's been very beautiful. Having a profile is a really strange thing, especially if you don't expect that to be part of your life. I suppose being a gender non-conforming person on screen feels like a real privilege because when I was younger,

[01:32:45] I kind of thought that if I were to be able to act as my job, it would probably be quite separate from my identity and that maybe they would just continue to remain separate. I didn't know if it'd be possible for those to overlap

[01:32:58] and be in conversation with one another. You hear about and you see more and more gender non-conforming trans and non-binary people in all aspects of the media. And I think that's very hopeful. It turns out there is, in fact, space. So I just thought that was really beautiful.

[01:33:16] And yeah, Emma is an absolutely amazing actor on screen. And when you see them off screen, the amount of swagger and just life that comes out of them is really fun to watch. So I'm always enjoying interviews, especially Emma and what's the actress's name that plays Allison?

[01:33:39] Those are some of my favorite. Olivia. Olivia. They seem to be quite good friends in real life and just seem to have the best time in interviews together. So again, Gay Times actually did this interview with Emma, but it does a co-interview with them as well.

[01:33:58] So go look those up. The only other thing I want to drop in the section about news is if you're like me and you get sucked into watching Reels on Instagram or Facebook or TikTok, there's lots of great House of the Dragon and Game of Thrones Reels

[01:34:14] that are now filling up my feed because the algorithms are onto me. But people have been doing these really awesome reels of excerpts from Game of Thrones that are referencing events that happen in House of the Dragon.

[01:34:26] But if you're not a book reader, be careful because they're like huge major spoilers like ruin the entire series level spoilers. So I just wanted to put that out there for anyone who might be trying to remain spoiler free

[01:34:43] that might want to be real careful about Game of Thrones references. When the show is feeling really heavy, I will go and watch some of those like blooper reels and see all the characters and such love that they have for each other is really it's like a bomb

[01:35:01] to soothe your your dragon sadness. They are all just like strikingly beautiful people, like uniquely beautiful looking people. Like it's I think I'd just pass out if I was in the presence of more than one of them in a room, but they're fascinating to watch.

[01:35:20] And like you said, they all seem the cast seems to be very tight knit. So there's no black and green divide right among the cast members. I agree. It's a nice bomb after the chaos of these episodes.

[01:35:34] I think I was willing to suspend my disbelief so much for that Raniara and Allison meeting in King's Landing just because I wanted to see them on screen together again. Yeah, I agree. They're so amazing together. So so good. That was it. We needed that conversation.

[01:35:52] And the young actors and actresses, too. Yeah. I was just listening to it again. And I was still like picking out little pieces that I hadn't heard before, you know, it's great. It's really good. I do like that you gave a spoiler alert, though.

[01:36:10] I know a lot of not a lot, but I do know that there were people who were upset because blood and cheese was like spoiled. Like, Jha'Haris's death was spoiled because so many people were putting stuff on it.

[01:36:21] You have to not look at Game of Thrones or House of the Dragons stuff online. You just especially. Yeah, you don't know old as they are like you can't risk it. I wouldn't have if I wasn't. I wouldn't have expected the Game of Thrones.

[01:36:36] Like, I know we've mentioned that they reference things that have happened in this history timeline in Game of Thrones, but I was not expecting just like within the first two seconds of a clip. Just like, bam, there, let me ruin the entire House of the Dragons.

[01:36:53] I'll score you. Love them a book reader so it's not ruining for me. But I was just like, oh, I would be so sad if. Yeah, I'm staying away from that. Yeah. Do it. It's why I love this world of Game of Thrones, right?

[01:37:08] Like I was a kid that got into Tolkien very young and that's what amazed me about Tolkien was the world building and just that George R. Martin has woven this rich tapestry of history of Westeros.

[01:37:21] And we have this entire series that happened, you know, all all these years before this one and we're still getting these cool little crossovers is just amazing to me. Speaking of which, George, where's the book, dude? Oh, I've given up. It's never happening.

[01:37:42] Someday he will pass on and someone will pick it up and finish it for him, I think. Someone's probably probably already written or just waiting for him to go. No offense. Sorry. You know, I have the mind that I'm just glad we got what we did

[01:37:58] and that I got to experience this world and I'm sad if we never get the ending he intended to the books, but I'm OK with it because of everything we've gotten so far. Yeah. Let's start with some listener feedback.

[01:38:13] I want to read one from one of our live posts on YouTube. We didn't do that this week and we're probably only going to do it for the finale. We're going to go live on YouTube. Podcastica has a YouTube site and we will do that on the finale,

[01:38:28] which I believe is August 4th. So as we get closer, we'll give a reminder about that. But this was from one of the other lives that we did. This is from David SK, and he says, just watched Episode Three last night,

[01:38:44] but need to watch again, paying more attention. Really love the tension of the meeting between Allison and Ranae. I'm so thrilled to finally see Alice Rivers. I saw Gail Rankin, who plays Alice in Cabaret a couple of months ago

[01:38:59] and saw in the playbill she is in Season Two of House of the Dragon. Cabaret was probably the greatest Broadway experience I've had and Gail was fantastic as Sally Bowles. Y'all keep killing the podcast. You make it so much better even for book readers like me

[01:39:14] who have already forgotten what happens in the book. That's great. I'm glad. You know, that's one thing I didn't comment on was I love the casting of Alice Rivers. I think that actress is really fantastic. I think she has a very unique face.

[01:39:31] I think she seems almost like you can't tell if she's like in some in some of the scenes, I felt like she looked quite about older. And some I felt like she looked quite a bit younger and I love her accent.

[01:39:43] And I think that might be her real accent because in the post-show interviews, it sounded the same. So she definitely doesn't blend in with the other characters. Like there's something very distinct about her. I love it. I know her from an SVU episode. Of course you do.

[01:40:03] I think that's like one of the I was just looking her up on IMDB. And I think it's like one of the first things that she did, which kind of makes sense now that that's how I know her. But she was in an episode of SVU. Interesting.

[01:40:19] All right. For feedback, we have feedback from Reena Jo. I knew what was coming and it didn't make it any easier. If anything, it was worse than reading the words on the page. I have no deep analytical thoughts, only feelings of heartbreak

[01:40:33] over the senseless loss of Mellies, the injury of Sunfire and the loss of our princess, Rhaenys. I'll never recover from that last look Mellies gives to Rhaenys before she fell almost like an apology. She couldn't protect her so strong was their bond. Wendy's freaking out. She's crying. Sorry.

[01:40:49] House of the Dragon loves poor shadowing. The scene where Allison was holding the dragon statue she had repaired for Viserys only for it to fall and break away. Another moment I just thought of the picture Aegon knocked off the table had a dragon on it.

[01:41:02] That's two dragons foreshadowed. Amen totally went after Aegon due to still in his feels about the scene at the brothel. Everyone wants to give crap to Rhaenys, Rhaenys kids about bullying him. But how about look at his own brother? P.S. I'll leave this here.

[01:41:15] Princess Rhaenys Targaryen was born on the seventh day of the seventh moon in 74 AC. Today is her birthday and she left a photo of princess Rhaenys the queen that should have been. I thought that was really sad that it was literally her birthday. That's awful.

[01:41:33] I also thought Rhaenys point about Maelis the look Maelis gave to Rhaenys because in that scene what I saw was Rhaenys looking at Maelis and thinking I'm so sorry I put you in this situation like and so I think it's beautiful that

[01:41:52] probably that's what they were both thinking. Yeah. Because they loved each other. It's both true. Yeah. It was kind of like a it's OK old girl look. Yeah, we tried. We tried and we went out together. Yeah. And I think that's like fitting for Rhaenys.

[01:42:06] I think if she was going to go anyway, it should have been with her dragon. Yeah. All right. We have a call from Steve Brown. This should be good. Hello Dragoncast. This is Steve and this is going to be for House the Dragons

[01:42:24] season two episode four Dance the Dragons. Well, I guess it's not called Dance Dragons. It's called the Red and Gold Dragon. I didn't see the title. OK, this has got to be a dream, right? Damon and this is one of the young I can remember

[01:42:35] this character talking Hyvelarian to him. Cut her head off. OK, yeah, a dream because a headless body talking not or headless but a decapitated head talking. Oh, Damon asking this kid to kill his grandfather. Come on. OK, so who does Allison have this T for?

[01:42:54] Oh, it's for herself. OK, that was a lot of talk for M'neris to say she just wants to end the conflict and now we're at some battlefield. It's Kristen Cole facing down somebody. OK, there's a lot of talking in this episode

[01:43:06] and I missed something here with who's the guy with the eye patch. OK, he's with King Aegon. So and who is Alice Rivers that's now talking to Damon? I missed something in here. Oh, I see Alice Rivers is trying to convince Damon to try to overthrow R'neris.

[01:43:21] OK, so is Damon dreaming again here after he's drank this stuff from this is a whole lot of talking here and who's he talking to that's going to betray his lord? And Aegon, the young king is bored. Did the Kingsguard just run into each other

[01:43:35] as he was done to leave after he told Allison that he removed the books? She's right, Aegon, you really should be attending to the people around you who have wisdom. OK, so how many dragons does the blacks have and how many dragons does the Greens have?

[01:43:49] But obviously nobody wants to go to dragons to fight. OK, so now what's the Queen's name that's going to go on her dragon to confront Cole R'nara? Oh, this is quite the epic battle we've got brewing here, right?

[01:44:00] That's Aegon on his sunfire and then R'nara is going to be on her dragon. Oh, what dragon is this that's in the forest? Oh, that's I patch. Amen. OK, all the talking in this episode is really led up to this battle. I'm excited.

[01:44:12] Oh, Maley seems to be quite the match for Sunfire. Oh, did Amen just burn up Aegon? Well, R'nara's dragon seems small compared to Aegon's. Amon's was like it doesn't matter which side you're on. When two dragons are fighting, everybody better run.

[01:44:28] And when that dragon's got it by the neck. Oh, is that the death of R'nara? Maybe not every time I thought it's going to end, it's not ending. OK, can't wait to hear you talk about this one. Who? OK, thanks, Steve.

[01:44:41] All right, Steve, I'm going to send you a little flip chart of pictures and names of everyone to help you for next live. Steve, yes. Look, that's fair. They all sound the same. You got like it's awful. Jihara, Jiharis, Jisaris, Luceris. Come on. I made like 10 mistakes

[01:45:00] and called Aegon, Amon to like 12 times this episode. I probably should not be calling Steve out at all. OK, we have feedback from Becky Fenner Anderson that says that was intense, amen. Wow, Rainys and Mayleith. That was well written in the book,

[01:45:20] and I love how they had it play out on the show. So good. Dance of the Dragons indeed. That's good that it lived up to her expectations. I feel like just the way that was written, like the short sentences or the one word in a period is

[01:45:37] exactly how I felt like I could not even form my thoughts. After watching this the first time. And we're podcasting pretty quickly on it. Yeah, sometimes you have a couple days and we really don't. So be kind to us. We're trying. That's right. It's less than 24 hours later.

[01:45:56] All right, Lisa Moreno says, well, what can I say? Rest in power, Rainys and Mayleith. I'm so sad. And if Aegon survived that fall, I'm calling bullshit. I'm just so sad. I kind of knew this was coming, but still brokenhearted. I don't understand what Damon is doing.

[01:46:19] If he had been there, things would have gone differently. Great episode, but still sad. Yeah, I think that sums it up. I read. I read. We have a comment from, I think it's Emily Rochet. If I could pronounce her name. Amelie. Amelie Rochet. I'm sorry. She's French.

[01:46:38] She's Canadian. Oh, actually, good. Yes. Oh, nice. French Canadian. So if you could read this in her accent, please. Oh, no. Okay. I'm going to try it in good old fashioned American. Sorry. Holy smokes. I knew shit was going to hit the fan, but this I'm speechless.

[01:46:57] So sad about Rainys. She was the true wise leader. Can't wait to hear your views on it. You are correct. She was a true wise leader. Mm-hmm. From Lisa Edmondson Walker, that was so hard and emotional to watch.

[01:47:13] I'm saddest about Rainys and Mellies and I wonder what's what next week's heartbreak will be. They're better. We've had enough heartbreak. I need like a one episode break, please. Hopefully we don't have more. I agree. All right. Next, we have a call from Anwin.

[01:47:33] Our friend from the upside down, otherwise known as New Zealand. Hi, Wendy, Renny and Veronica. It's Anwin. Thank you so much for the podcast. I'm really, really enjoying it. I need you guys to explain all the bits and pieces to me in the background.

[01:47:50] And I've been following along. Thanks so much. I'm really enjoying it. The show, even though I always do feel a bit behind on the names. My husband and I just sit here and we see a dragon and we go, oh, it's moon shadow. I mean, moon face.

[01:48:05] And then we see the tree and we're like, oh, it's the wishing tree. I mean, the Wamping Willow because we get stuff. But you guys help us out. So thank you. I wasn't a big fan of the woo woo ghosty stuff with Damon in this episode,

[01:48:19] but it was really cool to see Millie back as the young Renea. So that was cool. I love how they make even the bad characters seem more human. I actually felt sorry for Agon in this episode.

[01:48:31] He was never raised to be the king and Alison was so right when she told him that he needed to listen to those people around him or wiser, but he was just lost by the end. Poor boy. I also like how she keeps questioning what Viserys wanted

[01:48:44] and then agrees with the artist that it doesn't matter. I didn't think we would actually get a battle this time, but it was amazing. As soon as Renea's got on the dragon, I knew she would die so sad. She's my favorite character and she was so badass.

[01:48:58] Things would have been very different if she had been the queen, but probably there would be no wars and no story because it just all would have been good. But it was so satisfying when she'd recourse the crap out of Agon's army.

[01:49:09] My question for you is, did Crispy Cole know that Agon was going to be at the dragon fight and did he plan with Aamon to kill him or did that just happen coincidentally? Aamon decided to do that. And my final question, does anyone else think that Prince Jisaris

[01:49:27] looks like just like a young Andrew Lincoln? Because I sure do. Thanks again so much. Bye. Oh, I can see that. Yeah, I guess I'd have to see what Andy Lincoln looked like back then. It's hard to think of Andy not grizzled. I mean, think love actually.

[01:49:49] Oh, yeah. Yeah, maybe. Jay standing out front, some poster boards telling Bela how much he loves her. In the scenario, Bela's not taken so it's not creepy. Yeah. We have an email from Sam Lowe. She says, I'm heartbroken. I don't know what hurt more.

[01:50:17] The deaths of Mellice and probably Sunfire or Rainies or both. The cuddling of the dragons beforehand really stung and I had a feeling this was going to end poorly. I had no idea it would be this tragic. I kept thinking back to Rainies first scene with Teen Rinnara.

[01:50:38] Little did she know she would end up dying for that little girl. Welp. Now we know why Wiser Mines delayed bringing in the dragons. It really is brutal for everyone. Some quick points. The way Mellies looked back at Rainies, she knew and she followed Rainies anyway.

[01:50:59] OK, Mama, we're really doing this. It's been a good run. And she made sure Rainies was the last thing she saw as she died from Vagar's bite. Speaking of for a giant dragon, Vagar really can speak up on people. Vinga. And she seems to love her jump scares.

[01:51:24] JFC. I could have done without Allison's Westerosi Plan B storyline. Allison judged Teen Rinnara so hard after learning about the potion before the irony and the irritation. That's a really good point. Like, I think maybe that's why that was in there.

[01:51:44] Like, she's doing everything that she criticized Rinnara for. She criticized Rinnara for maybe hooking up with her uncle and then she married her children to each other. Yeah. I'm going to be an Allison hater till death. Sorry. Yeah.

[01:52:01] Not sure where the daemon's Christmas Carol storyline is going at Harren Hall. Is there a reason for it? Do I have to wait to see? Why did Aimen tell Vagar to wait when Aegon arrived? Pettingness, revenge for the mocking? Yeah.

[01:52:18] And I think the plan was for Aegon to die. Aegon pushing the water jug over like a cat made me laugh and his broken old Valyrian. The dragons remind me of cats so it hurts me so much more when they get hurt on the show.

[01:52:34] The air puppies deserve better. Simon Strong, I adore you, sir. Is Aegon the infantile dead? It can't be that easy. I don't think he's dead. I think we're meant to, if he was dead, he would have been dead. I think we're meant to think he'll be alive.

[01:52:54] I have a book related thought at all stage. Yeah. Thank you for your thoughts, Sam. I loved it. Thank you. We have a comment from Maria Lawson. I'm probably too late for this week, but here goes.

[01:53:09] Ooh, I knew when they showed that sailor a few episodes ago, he would be back. And not entirely surprised to see that he is Corley's son. Raineyce went out like a badass and was obviously the more experienced and skilled

[01:53:22] dragon fighter, I assume she didn't survive, but we don't see a body so can't be sure yet. That's a good point. Aegon is an idiot. And while I'm rooting for Reneire aside, him being likely out of the picture makes things more interesting on the high tower side.

[01:53:36] Now we really have to see why they were avoiding using the dragons. But now we really have seen why they were avoiding using the dragons. That whole battle should have just been called the Battle of Collatering Camage. Yeah. So do you think Aiman meant to take out Aegon?

[01:53:51] I absolutely do. And I think he would have not engaged Reneire after had she not turned back to the battle. Thanks for the great coverage of the show. One more thing I forgot, Prince Joceris absolutely rolling his eyes and being

[01:54:03] exasperated with his mom wanted to ride into battle, maybe laugh out loud. Yes, I agree. So I have a question that we haven't talked about. Is Aamond Aegon's heir? Yes. OK, so his only son was killed. Correct. Aegon's only son was killed. Correct.

[01:54:24] In the books, he has another son, but they have clearly not decided to continue having that son in this storyline. And so we believe. So I think that's who it would have passed. Aamond would be the heir. Yes. OK.

[01:54:41] Lindsay Schlitt writes, Oh man, I knew it was coming, but I still wasn't prepared. I'm not sure I even knew what happened in the episode beyond the end. I agree. I just keep seeing that last breath from Maley's.

[01:54:57] The dragons feel much like a dog to me and my dogs are my everything. So losing dragons hurts more than it probably should. Saw a baby head fall off and I'm fine. Kill a CGI dragon and a blubbering mess. Same. What is wrong with us?

[01:55:14] The loss of such fantastic character in Rainey's hits too hard. Echoes of losing Danny for me. The show will not be the same after this. I dread seeing Corlys's grief next episode. Heartbreaking episode. I thought about Lindsay because Lindsay and I have talked a lot about this,

[01:55:34] like when we covered Avatar, Lindsay and I talked about this because in Avatar, there's a lot of non-existent animals that we feel so badly about. And it's so similar. Like it was really hard to watch.

[01:55:51] And the second time I watched it, I just kind of fast forwarded past the dragon spots, but I wanted to see the human parts. I was thinking about you, Lindsay. All right. Alicia Stout says,

[01:56:05] I knew that episode was going to be epic, but there was way more to unpack in this one than I thought. Shout out to the Queen who never was and may lease the Red Queen. May they rest in peace.

[01:56:21] They went down in a blaze of glory during a great battle. Could we not love Rainey's more? I mean a fearless, strong, bad ass devoted and committed woman along with her strong bond to Corlys. It makes me so sad that they didn't get a proper goodbye.

[01:56:37] Next week we'll be heartbreaking. RIP. It was so great seeing Millie come back again as the young Rennera. I just love seeing her in these episodes. Oh, how she is missed, even though I love Emma Darcy.

[01:56:52] What a creepy dream or premonition for Damon to experience at Harren Hall. The throne room seems to be a place where Damon experiences a lot of pain in his past. House of the Dragons show runners like to give us Easter eggs, fan love, etc.

[01:57:07] So I like when they repeat scenes that may be shot slightly different. For example, earlier last season we see Damon sitting on the throne and Rennera walking towards him speaking Valerian. And in this episode it was opposite. Super cool.

[01:57:23] They showed a brief glimpse of a black goat as Damon was entering the small council room during his hallucination. What do you think that signifies? Do you think it has something to do with Alice Rivers being that she is a witch? Sir Crispy Critter.

[01:57:40] Man, how I wanted him to not be okay. I was actually cheering when he went down on the ground, but no, the jackass got up only for fun to the king. Digging sir Gawain giving all the sastical, Hopi sticks around for a while.

[01:57:55] Is it me or does he look a little bit like the on grey jar? Yes. Either way, I'm here for it. I really liked the entire scene between Aegon, Sunfire and Amond with Vagar. Oh, the deception so, so different from the books.

[01:58:11] And I know I said this last week, but I really like the change for the show. Anyway, I could go on and on, but I will stop here or else I will take over the entire comment section. Thanks for all you guys do.

[01:58:23] You are rocking the podcast and shout out to Renny and Veronica as I am thoroughly enjoying book talk as well. Ciao for now. Dracaris. Thank you, Alicia. That's wonderful. And then our last thing is we have a call from Renee Murray. She emailed right at the last minute.

[01:58:43] I was so, I was kind of waiting for her call to come in. Hi guys, this is Renee calling in about the House of Dragons. I hope I am not too late, but I had to get my bearings together

[01:58:56] because this was the first episode that was super duper sad. I mean, when Jace died, that was sad as well. But this episode here, I guess, because Renny, she was such a pivotal part of the show and just of just the Queens.

[01:59:12] Um, I don't know why she was not Hand of the Queen. I have no idea. She should have been Hand of the Queen because she just was always giving out such sound advice and she should because she's older

[01:59:25] and she has lived long and what she says makes sense. And but I do feel like they continue to play in Renee's face. They make her they on the show. It makes it seem like she's so indecisive.

[01:59:36] Like she does not know what she's doing, whereas I feel like that she cares about the small folks, just like the mistress of Whisper said. I have seen both of you guys in action and you're the only one that shows grace and favor.

[01:59:49] And I feel like that she has empathy. I feel like that she did she didn't want this war. But if it's if it's something that she could have done, I guess she could have, you know, bent the knee or just let it go.

[02:00:01] But I don't see how because I don't see Damon letting it go. I just do not see that. I feel like Damon is not that she he would not even allow her to bend the knee. Like you've been it would have been like if you bend the knee,

[02:00:13] guess what? I'm going to become king. He's really going to turn on her then he would have turned on her. So I don't know what Rene or could it be. But this is this is sad. It's sad. It's sad. It's sad that the dragons are dying.

[02:00:25] And those beautiful dragons fighting one another that grew up together that, you know, Vagar was Damon's wife dragon. It's like what this is? This is sad. And it's just it's basically how it is in now. Nothing has changed.

[02:00:40] They didn't want a woman to be a queen. The queen then they don't want a female president now. They don't want me to be a president, the president now. So nothing has changed. They things have changed, but things still have not changed.

[02:00:52] And Allison is she definitely pissed me off because it's like, ma'am, you had another chance to make your baby boy feel so much better. And you played in his face as well. Like, how dare you talk to him like that?

[02:01:04] I feel like if she would have shown them kids just an inkling of some type of love, then them kids would have not been as bad. And I do feel like I don't know which one of y'all said on the show

[02:01:17] was that Damon that Damon would have been Damon's favorite nephew and he would have been his favorite uncle. I do feel that way. I feel like had they been raised to love one another and care for one another. I don't think that would have turned out any better.

[02:01:32] Even with Viserys and Damon, I feel like Damon is the way that he is because his brother did not love him. I feel like his brother was jealous of him as well. And I feel like Viserys made help make Damon into who he is.

[02:01:45] If he were to show Damon some love, like how the hell you going to get somebody else to be your hand when you got your brother right here that knows how to fight, has skills when it comes to war. That has a dragon that has some sense.

[02:02:01] I know that Damon is a high head, so I understand that he won't go listen to everything that Damon said, but he didn't listen to everything the auto said as well. So I feel like he made Damon who he is and Alice that made her kids

[02:02:16] who they are. A. A. Amon is a small brat that was what did I say? Because the first time I said it, I saw it. I was like, he is drinking while dragging. Like that don't make no sense. It makes no sense at all.

[02:02:31] And Amon, he wants to be Damon and I looked at the after show and basically that's where they sit on the after show that Damon that Damon created. Amon, because he does look up to him, but he looks up to him as if,

[02:02:44] you know, I need to find it. If I can just only kill him, then I'm going to be the head honcho. I'm gonna be the big man. That's how I feel like he looks at Damon, which is sad. It's really sad.

[02:02:55] This whole, like I said, like this family is you to my dysfunctionality throw the whole damn family away. Just throw them all away. All right. Peace and love talk to you guys later. Bye. I just have to argue like if someone tried to blame me for how

[02:03:11] my siblings turned out and I'm sure they feel like it's worth. So like no, no, no, no, that is not my serious fault. I think vice there is for all of his shortcomings as a king. I think he was smart not to put Damon as his hand.

[02:03:27] I think he tried to give Damon positions and even in the one he succeeded, he got signed away because he took his well almost took his niece's virginity in a pleasure house in front of a lot of people. Yeah. Right? Like like my stairs try. He's a fighter.

[02:03:48] He's not a king. Damon and would not ever have been able to really unite. Like I think them as a united force would be absolutely unstoppable, but I also think both of them want power too much for that to ever happen.

[02:04:03] And I think that was a really good point. Her saying that even if Raniera had bent the knee and just for Damon wouldn't have allowed it. I think that's a really good point. Yeah. I think that's really, really true.

[02:04:16] Like he would have gone and started a war on his own if Raniera had done that. I mean, I feel like he's about to do that. Yeah. Right now. Doesn't take much. There is split in the family. Yep. All right.

[02:04:29] Well, that wraps up our feedback for the day. So stick around. We are going to have book talk with Ackley, Ronnie and Alchemist Cassie. And we'll have two different sections. First, they will cover differences in the book versus this episode only or up through this episode only.

[02:04:52] And then the second part will be true book spoilers. So if you have not read the book, please don't listen unless you love to be spoiled on everything. Next week on House of the Dragon, we will be covering season two, episode five.

[02:05:09] That also remains untitled probably until after it starts. And Kristen is going to be joining us for that episode. So if we have anybody who listened to the podcast last season, Kristen will has agreed to come back for that one episode. So we're very excited about that.

[02:05:28] And then Rima's going to do the episode after that. So we're going to get some blasts from the past. You can leave feedback at our podcastica Facebook page. We post weekly feedback threads or you can leave feedback by emailing dragoncastica at gmail.com.

[02:05:46] That's dragon c a s t i c a at gmail.com. You can find Dragon Cast and a bunch of other great podcasts at podcastica.com. What are you listening to right now, Veronica? You know, I've mentioned multiple times that I'm loving the Walking Dead recap rewatch.

[02:06:07] Um, and so I just listened to most recent episode and Jason's about to go off to Scotland to see Lucy. And so while he is gone, we're actually getting this awesome crossover next week, I believe, where the Welcome to the Apocalypse cast who's been doing

[02:06:25] this awesome improv show, the characters from Welcome to the Apocalypse are going to watch the first episode of the Walking Dead. So the pilot season one episode one talk about it. And so I think that is going to go full. I can't wait. So fun.

[02:06:45] Yeah, they're going to stay in their characters. I love their characters. Yeah. I'm hoping they reflect a little bit on like what this episode could teach them about surviving in their current apocalyptic situation. So yeah, it'd be really fun. Yeah, I'm looking forward to that.

[02:07:03] I'm also keeping up with the rewatch. I'm a little bit behind. I just finished season three episode one today of the podcast, and it was it was really great. I find myself wanting to like argue with them.

[02:07:16] Like I want to like get on the messenger thread and be like, no, no, no, that's not what happened. This is what so that's a lot of fun. I keep finding though that I go back to try to like catch to where

[02:07:27] they're at and then I'm like in season four again. Yes, I just keep watching through. Just let it go. Yeah, it's great. I do that too. All right, that is our show. Thanks for listening everyone. Until next time, I'm still Veronica. I'm Cassie and I'm Wendy. Dracarys.

[02:08:02] Do you know what JFC stands for? Yes. I assumed Jesus fucking Christ. Well, I was just curious. I didn't want to offend everybody all at once. I mean, why not burn it to the ground when it is House of the Dragon? Dracarys. I have the book with me.

[02:08:34] Nice. I feel like that we really only covered like a page or two. I mean, each literally it is not very much. I don't have a ton, but so we'll start with the non-spoilery. So just like everything that we've come up to to this point.

[02:08:54] I'm happy to like start off on a point. Yeah. Okay. So I wanted to start off on sort of this difference with Alice Rivers. And so in the book, Damon is at least based on the reported history.

[02:09:14] Damon is not supposed to be impacted by Alice Rivers sort of witchy powers at all. And I think one of the things I've talked to Renny a lot about that I love so much about this sort of approach to the book that they've taken is the differing

[02:09:31] histories and the way that what's on the page may not be absolute truth, right? Because we have different people just sort of reporting what they've come across. And so I think it one gives the show leeway to like it's not even getting away

[02:09:49] from canon because the book isn't necessarily true canon. Does that make sense? Like because there could be discrepancies in the history. Oh, yeah. Well, there's half of it is based on. Mushroom. Give a play from Mushroom. Right. Who is like not like not a reliable source.

[02:10:08] And the like the the perspective in which it's written like constantly says that Mushroom is not reliable. Right. Like every other page, it's like Mushroom said this, but we're not really meant to believe that. Yeah. But I do like that.

[02:10:21] I think it gives it a lot more wiggle room to like do what you want with certain plot lines and characters. Yeah. Without like the fan base coming in and being like, this is different than

[02:10:31] the book because they it could be like, well, this is what really happened. But I what I liked about sort of the piece with Damon and Alice Rivers is that because of Damon's personality, the prideful person that he is, the ego

[02:10:47] he carries, like even if the true version in the book was that Alice Rivers did impact him, he would not have wanted that story to get out. Right. So both he would have kept it secret, but also like even the people

[02:11:03] that we saw him interacting with this episode that were obviously noticing his strange behavior, like they're terrified of him. And so what are the chances that they would also like spread that rumor about him as well?

[02:11:19] And so I still felt like even though it was a change from the book, there's enough wiggle room that I could see that still actually being congruent in a way. Does that make sense? Oh yeah. I agree.

[02:11:30] I think they could still follow the basics of the plot and still have her as like a major factor. Yeah, it would just depend on the writing, but I have faith in the writers. That was just that was all I really had for that.

[02:11:45] If you have a point. I put a post it. My book is so posted up at this point with those. Now I'm like, oh, I have a post it here. I have posted on every page. I mean, it's not like a big difference, but like the fight scene.

[02:12:02] Sir Kristen Cole was not dismayed. Aegon's hand had expected this counted on it. So I feel like Rainey's arriving was definitely more like plotted out in the book versus in the show. It's kind of like they were just kind of one backup in case someone arrived

[02:12:18] and in the book, I think it's very obvious that that was like a trap for her. Yeah, I can be wrong, but that's kind of how I know. I think you're right.

[02:12:25] And I think I still felt like that was the plan in the show, but it wasn't as clear. Like, I think it could have been that they had it perfectly planned as a trap or it could have been, as you said, that it was just backup.

[02:12:40] Whereas in the book, it's like, like you said, like super clear. That's what they wanted to happen. And I think the only other stuff I had was kind of like spoilers. I have just like two other small notes. Actually, I guess three.

[02:12:58] So I really appreciated that Rainey's knew about Alan. Because in the book that you don't really there's no indication that she knows it. And actually, like it's not even completely clear that Alan truly is his core. This is son for sure, for sure.

[02:13:24] And so I felt again, I was having a hard time imagining based how close Corleys and Rainey's are and how sort of. Perceptive, I feel like Rainey says it was hard for me to imagine

[02:13:39] like a bastard born son right under her nose without her at least having suspected it. And so I was kind of glad that in the show, like she she knew or at least had suspected

[02:13:51] for a long time and it felt like she was sort of confirming it when she looked in his face. I liked that. Yeah, I got that too. Like the confirmation. I liked it better because it was more definitive and at least like.

[02:14:06] She knew like before she went and he knows that she knew. Yeah. And that must have been good for him to at least like have her know. Yeah, like the burden of that secret is gone and she didn't die with some

[02:14:22] big secret that he was still hiding from her. Like I think that's why it felt good to me. I. One of the things that Renny and I have talked a lot about that I disliked about

[02:14:32] the book and that I've really appreciated the change in the series is in the book, Reneera really just sort of shrinks back after Luke's death. And all of this planning, all of this war, she just isn't really involved. She's supposed to be so distraught.

[02:14:53] And I liked that as much as I have already sort of driven home that I'm not thrilled with the way that she went to King's Landing. Even though I liked the I liked that she got to have the conversation with Allison and like seeing them together.

[02:15:10] I do like that in the book. She's just sort of absent because she's just like off being sad. And in the show, we still got that look into like her being absent and Jay struggling to try to run the small council and take a leadership role.

[02:15:27] But it wasn't because she was just absent, sulking or sad. It was because she actually like went off to sneak and do a mission. And so I thought it was cool how they're changing things, but still able to weave it back into the book storyline in that way.

[02:15:45] And I think that's like, I think it has to they had to do that for her council to be there the way they are in the show. And I think it was like it's interesting, like we see Jace getting frustrated with her.

[02:15:58] We already saw Damon getting frustrated with her. We see her council getting frustrated with her. And it's really interesting because like she's, you know, she's the queen, but she's also a mom. She's also a human. She's dealing with a lot of stuff. And I agree.

[02:16:12] I really like the way that she's more active in a series versus in the book, it feels like she's definitely kind of sitting off to the side almost like kind of just things are just happening without her. Yeah. OK.

[02:16:25] And the only other thing I had, it was a little bit more about that battle scene is that in the book. Rainy's is locked in or Maley's and Sunfire are locked in together and Vagar comes and just like snatches both of them out of the air.

[02:16:47] And so everyone goes down basically all at the same time. So it's not quite as pointed or as easy to say that. Aamon, I think it was easier in the book story for it to be explained as collateral damage that Agon got so injured versus here where.

[02:17:14] You know, it happens very separately like one one. Yeah. And so a small change, like same sort of outcome of the dragons that went down and stuff and the people. But I thought it was just an interesting additional look.

[02:17:33] And I think it allowed for a much more interesting and dramatic battle scene because we got sort of like that fight and then the separation and then Rainy's going back. So I think a good change and definitely makes the Aamon's dynamic more interesting than it could have been.

[02:17:51] I agree. I think it would have been quite a sight to see all three dragons because in the books, it says they plummet to the ground so hard that the stones in Rook's rest like fall, like the stuff starts crumbling because of the impact.

[02:18:07] So I think that would have been really cool to see all three of them going down like that. Yeah. But I also feel like there's definitely room for that for something like that to happen. For sure. I hope we get.

[02:18:19] I think I hope we just get a lot more of cool dragon fights. I think we will. But I feel like even in the show, they're setting things up that they could add additional additional fights in that aren't in the book. So I'm excited for that.

[02:18:36] But that's all I had as far as non-spoilery stuff. So yeah, are you ready to go into spoilery? OK. So normally, Renny plays a dragon sound and I do not have a dragon sound to play. So this is your big warning.

[02:18:50] Get the heck out of here if you do not want to hear spoilers because we're about to spoil everything. OK. Do you want to go first? OK, if I'm doing it wrong, tell me. Amund or not. Amund. No, Aegon is the first thing I want to talk about.

[02:19:11] I was so upset thinking that he was dead. I was so upset thinking that he had died. Because I don't know, like I guess it was just like the scene of him laying there and Amund's there and Kristen's there. And I really thought, like, oh, they changed it.

[02:19:25] He's going to he's dead. And I was going to be really upset because that's not how he's supposed to die. I had a moment where I questioned it. I couldn't believe that they didn't like they gave us a good look to see that

[02:19:39] like we saw Sunfire at least like somewhat breathing, even if it's like, you know, pretty injured. But they gave us no glimpse to actually see like any information as to whether Aegon is breathing or not.

[02:19:55] And so I had this brief moment of like what they have killed him. But I don't think it makes any sense to the rest of the story. It would have to change so many things. And it would contradict things that have already been laid out

[02:20:08] in the Game of Thrones references. So there's just absolutely, I don't think any way they've changed that. I think he's got to still be alive. And like they didn't show him, right? Like if they don't show the dead body.

[02:20:23] Well, they showed him and he wasn't moving, but it was like it was like wasn't enough. It was just like. He's just like curled up in the fetal position, which is more or less like because if you get fire and blood,

[02:20:35] the illustrations by I can't remember what his name is, Doug Wheatley are really good. The illustration of Sunfire and Aegon is almost identical to the scene. Really? Yeah, hold on here. Well, the page I have mine sitting on the. Yeah, OK, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[02:20:52] I thought it was beautiful that I thought I had Sunfire curled around him. I mean, they did. I think this whole season, they've done such a good job of a bit of a redemption for Aegon.

[02:21:03] Like I didn't think I would have as much empathy for him as I do at this point. Not that I'm like totally defending him, but I felt I softened to him some more this season. Like I saw a bit more of like the victim pieces.

[02:21:20] I'm not excusing his behavior. He is an atrocious young man and like I don't want to like gloss over the fact that he raped a lot of servant girls or any of that. But they softened my heart enough to him that I felt like

[02:21:37] a little bit of sadness for him in that moment where he was going down. And I think the biggest thing that softened it for me was the dragon. Like I think I just felt sad for this dragon that loves him.

[02:21:50] This dragon doesn't know what a terrible human being he is. Like so, I think, yeah, I did feel more sadness than I was expecting to feel for him, especially as a book reader. The more like Alice in becomes so like transparently hypocritical,

[02:22:09] the worse I feel for Agon because like he really never had a chance. Yeah, he was the second born son of a man who already had an heir born to a woman who had born to a child who had absolutely no interest

[02:22:23] in being another and was told basically his entire childhood that it didn't matter what he was because there was already an heir. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's it's unfortunate. Again, I don't want to make excuses for he wasn't the things he's done.

[02:22:40] But yeah, I don't think he had anyone really guiding him. I mean, he's not like Ramsay Bolton, but no. That's pretty low bar to judge someone by. That's true. I am really curious what they're going to continue to add

[02:23:03] to the story storyline for Alice Rivers and like if there's going to be more to this interaction with Damon or if it's just, you know, in the book she ends up become like when things switch around. She ends up being with Amond

[02:23:23] and she actually helps Amond find Damon later on. That's kind of where I was thinking. So do you think the only reason that they've introduced sort of this weird dynamic with Damon is to sort of show a more dynamic piece

[02:23:43] to his character that he's having regret and guilt that it's not all just like callousness with him? And that's the only point to having her. I think there's all this. Is it going to help drive? Is it going to help explain him going back to Raniyra?

[02:23:59] I'm guessing at the end of the season. So I think that's part of it. And I think the other part of it is I feel like they're going to have to make her a bigger influence on Amond.

[02:24:10] And like, I feel like that's kind of what they're leading up towards. So I feel like in order for her to be that bigger influence on Amon, not like, you know, a master of whispers, but like she's she's a witch. She's an alchemist. She's something. She's got power.

[02:24:24] So I think they're gearing up for her to be very relevant in helping Amond and helping like that branch of the Targaryens later on. I mean, I just really enjoy her like as a character, so I'm not going to be upset whatever they do to her really.

[02:24:40] Like I just really love her character. So yeah, I was really pleased getting to like properly meet her in quotes this episode. And it made me excited that hopefully she's getting a bigger I mean, everyone has a bigger role than they did because the book is so brief.

[02:24:58] But yeah, do you have any other? I I don't know how much you want to get into it, but I'm curious to see what they're going to do with. Sunfire. Yeah. I mean, Sunfire seemed pretty damaged.

[02:25:21] I don't see a reason for them to do much different than they do in the book. Which is just that Sunfire stays there, right? So in the book. So yeah, the book, Sunfire is super, super damaged, has a really injured wing.

[02:25:41] He stays there for months and he first eats all the corpses on the battlefield. And then I think it's Kristen Cole and someone else orders that like sheep and stuff be basically delivered there for him to eat.

[02:25:55] And then eventually he does like heal his wing is still broken, but it heals enough and he does fly off. Oh, I forgot about. Yeah. Yeah, he leaves enough that he like is able to fly away, I think with Vagar, I'm trying to find it.

[02:26:13] So I did the book on tape, audio book, tape I'm showing my age. I did the audio book and I'm just now like delving into reading the book. And like the audio book, it's hard to like, I think absorb whereas now that I'm

[02:26:29] reading the book, I have like posted notes and notes. And so some of these like details like this, like I don't remember. So that's why ready like the encyclopedia. Oh yeah. Well, it was just while I was waiting on the book to arrive.

[02:26:43] Yeah, because you have like the chronological order of events and all the similar names. I feel like that would be hard. Yeah. But yeah, Sunfire does live, but I'm wondering like because I don't think I want to say like nothing really happens and Sunfire just like lives

[02:26:58] and then flies away and like it's expected that he dies somewhere. I'd have to double check, but I'm wondering if they're going to even bother because I will lose my mind and sob if there is a scene of like injured burnt Sunfire crawling his way across a field

[02:27:15] to eat dead body. Like I will lose it. That's what I don't want to happen. I'd rather just kill him. I know that's terrible, but no, I mean, I think I don't see the dragons suffer. I am surprised at how deeply the dragon suffering hit me.

[02:27:31] Like I knew this was all going to happen and like watching Rainey's die was really difficult. I didn't expect to be crying like at the dragons from the first like injury. I was crying and she was telling her to get ready for battle.

[02:27:49] Yeah, I don't want to see that either. I really think the dragons are going to be so I might be wrong, but I think the worst scene in the whole series to date is Emma's death. And like I've argued with people and people will say it's not.

[02:28:07] I just and I don't have kids. I've never given birth. I just that scene, I feel like is a gut punch to anyone with a womb. But I feel like the dragons. It's so confusing as to why that's more like emotional than like Jairus.

[02:28:21] I guess because you don't really see. I think you don't see Jairus. I mean, normally when it's not children, when it's human, like adult humans, I rationalize it that like the animals are just being like, you know, like, you know, you know, animals are just bigger innocence, right?

[02:28:40] Like, yeah, they're not choosing to this. But when it's the child, then I don't have a I don't have a rationale for why I'm more moved. But I think if we had seen Jairus having fear and experiencing pain the same way we had to watch the dragons experiencing

[02:28:57] pain that we might feel very differently. I don't want to see that. I'm very glad they did not show us that. I don't need to to have that. But I think if the book death of Jairus had been in the show,

[02:29:09] that might have been it would have been different. I was disappointed that they didn't have it at first. And I think Renny was too. And then I think both of us, the more we thought about it, I think it would have been like too dark.

[02:29:24] And that's saying a lot with the show. I think it might have been too much. I don't know. I think it would have been hard for a see like, I think the scene itself would have been too dark.

[02:29:36] I think it would have been really hard to do that with a child actor and still been like, oh yeah, I didn't even think about that piece of it. Well, well, so there's like a whole. So like in the first game of Thrones season,

[02:29:49] the scene with Danny and called Drogo when they're like pantomimeing sex and it's like violent and stuff. That's why there are intimacy coordinators on sets now. And so it's like interesting how like we protect actors and then you have to think about like protecting the

[02:30:04] children actors because clearly like they have to have some kind of clue of what's going on. But I think it would be different of, hey, like we're going to put you in this bed and this guy is going

[02:30:12] to put his mouth when you cry a little bit versus like, hey, we're going to like, you know, I think I get that. You're right. I also think it would have been, it would have made more sense for Helena to have lost

[02:30:25] it right away versus the kind of more gradual decline we're seeing in her. Yeah. I think that's been fascinating to me and I've been curious if they're going to do something else with her character. If she will play a bigger part because she has not

[02:30:41] completely devolved the way she did in the book. So immediately, because she still has a dragon like, is there any chance they would use that at some point or are they just sort of keeping that so that we have this hope in this conversation?

[02:30:58] It's hard for me to imagine her going out on a dragon at all, but maybe to like try to escape or something. I would like to see her do something. Or like release the dragon or like, because I could definitely see that being one brand for her.

[02:31:11] Like she doesn't want her dragon to end up caught up in everything. She just lets it go. Let's him go. No, I think her dragon is hurt. I could see that happening, especially possibly when the dragons are being attacked later on. Well, and she's also not clairvoyant,

[02:31:30] but like kind of clairvoyant. Like she gets a bit, I guess visions or something like that. So I could definitely see like she wasn't there for Aegon to be hurt. She wasn't there at Rooks. She probably knows. But she probably knows.

[02:31:44] So I could definitely see her trying to like release dragons to save them. Yeah. I definitely don't think I could see her riding a dragon though. But once she have had to, when she was younger, at least to learn. Yeah. I think so.

[02:32:00] But I also, I think I like touched on this in the main show without specifically calling it out because I didn't want to spoil it, but I think we definitely got the setup of Corleys being named Hand. And in the book, Jace does it.

[02:32:20] And so we also got the setup of Jace like trying to be more of a leadership role. And I'm just curious if it will be Jace sort of negotiating that like he did in the book. Or if we'll see Raniyra sort of stay strong.

[02:32:39] Like I think this is going to blow her pretty hard. Having Rhaenys go down. And I do think Corleys is going to have anger directed in all directions. But I'm just... In the book, I think, does Rhaenys send Rhaenys in the book? I think so.

[02:33:06] I mean, it just says she has no choice but to send Rhaenys or something like that. Yeah. So I think in the book it lends itself more to Corleys being like really upset and enraged at her.

[02:33:17] And I think in the show it's going to give him more of an excuse to rage at everyone and not just her. That's true because he was there when Rhaenys said it has to be me and he didn't try to talk her down from it or anything.

[02:33:32] And so hopefully that... I'm all for, I think for the show it's important to have Rhaenys continue to at least be a slightly stronger character for it to be compelling. Yeah. That's all I had us for, Squilers. Did you have anything else? No, not really. Awesome.

[02:33:55] Well that is book talk then everybody.