20: "The Queen Who Ever Was" (S2E8)

[00:00:00] Hey everybody, I'm Wendy. I'm Renny. And I'm Veronica. And this is Dragon Cast, a podcast dedicated to the House of the Dragon. This week we're discussing House of the Dragon Season 2 Episode 8, the season finale, The Queen Who Ever Was.

[00:00:56] All right, I'll start with a brief synopsis from Wikipedia. Tyland Lannister allies with the triarchy but must first defeat Admiral Shereko Lohar in a mud wrestling competition. He wins, impressing her. And I noticed they're saying her, but in the show they said him.

[00:01:17] They talked about that a little bit in the behind the scenes. Yeah. Oh no, sorry. It was in the official HBO podcast. Ryan Condal said that Shereko Lohar is a woman who's living like a man and it blows

[00:01:36] everybody's mind so much, the people around her, that they can't think of her as a woman so they call her, they use he. Okay, all right. That makes a little sense because I thought something was happening there but I wasn't sure why.

[00:01:53] Laris convinces Aegon that they should exile themselves in Braavos where Harren Hall's gold is stashed, then reclaim the throne following the war. After days of searching, Reina finds the wild dragon. Gawain challenges Kristen who regrets the war. Out of anger, Aemond lays waste to Sharp Point with Vhagar.

[00:02:17] Rhaenyra, who hoped having more dragon riders would deter the conflict, declares war. Ulf's boarish behavior enrages Jace. Alan rebuffs Corlys's attempts at reconciliation. Rhaenyra and Adam fly to Harren Hall after Simon Strong sends warning that Daemon may be traitorous.

[00:02:40] Alice leads Daemon to a werewood tree where he foresees a future including a white walker and Daenerys Targaryen and three newborn dragons. Seeing himself as part of a larger story, he swears fealty to the newly arrived Rhaenyra. Aemond demands that Helena fly Dreamfire into battle.

[00:03:01] She refuses and predicts Aemond will die in the war saying that killing her will not alter his fate. Aided by Orwyle, Alicent sneaks into Dragonstone offering to surrender King's Landing to Rhaenyra's forces. Rhaenyra insists that Aegon must die to ensure the transition.

[00:03:23] Idaho is briefly seen in a cage. Soldiers from across Westeros prepare for war. That was a lot in that episode. That was a lot. So much. So many different directions. It was a long episode. It was. Yeah.

[00:03:41] And it wasn't like the time wasn't sucked up by like a big battle scene or anything like that. So it was a lot of little pieces. Yes. My notes are all over the place. I don't know what's going to happen. Who wants to go first?

[00:03:58] I can jump in. Yeah. Okay. Because everyone knows my love affair with Daemon during this show and this episode. I feel like we finally got back peak Daemon. Everything that I wanted. I'm like, I wrote my notes.

[00:04:15] Can we please just carve like Daemon plus Rhaenyra forever in a Weirwood tree because I was just living it up watching their reunion. I feel like I was so excited that we got to see Rhaenyra in action. Flying Cyrax going to go bring him to heel.

[00:04:34] I just felt like we needed to see her make that kind of power move. And I loved it. I loved the dragons all sort of greeting each other as she rode up. And then, I mean, they really made it such a very dramatic scene.

[00:04:51] Like her slow walk up the steps and then his slow walk through the crowd of men. Just the music that was playing as that was happening. I just, I loved it. I thought it was a fantastic scene.

[00:05:06] I loved that they had their conversation in High Valyrian and that's always beautiful when they do that. And it was a very, I don't know, it was just a very sassy Daemon type conversation. But I liked the way it played out.

[00:05:20] And then I loved Daemon on his knees swearing until death or the end of our story that he was pledged to her as queen. And then peak Daemon, he was not meant to be the ruler, but he was meant to be a leader.

[00:05:37] I think him as a, I don't know what the right term is, but as a captain of men leading them to war, that's what he thrives doing. I think that's when you see, or that's the Daemon that I love.

[00:05:51] That's the, even though he's obviously questionable morals and not a stand up guy. That's why in season one, I love to watch him because of sort of who we saw him be again this episode.

[00:06:06] But I feel like it was Daemon 2.0, like the best of him, but him also loving and bowing down to Rhaenyra. I felt like, I don't know, it was just everything I wanted out of that piece of the story. And so very happy with it.

[00:06:23] And last little thing, again, we got Sir Simon just being a total scene stealer. I mean his faces and his clapping and his almost like little dance there at the end. Just he's been absolutely fantastic the whole season.

[00:06:39] And I think even at times when I was getting frustrated with this storyline, he was a bit of fresh air, I think, into these scenes. So it was nice to end the season with him still doing that. Yes.

[00:06:51] Well, I can pick right up from there with my first point, which is also Daemon, but it's not Daemon so much as the vision that Alice Rivers shows him with the werewood tree. So this is something that absolutely does not happen in the book. This is show only.

[00:07:08] And I'm very curious about what Alice's motivation is. Why does she want to show him this vision? In the inside the episode, they said that one of the things that they wanted to do was

[00:07:24] link the events of this show to the events of Game of Thrones, which they definitely do. Because we saw Bloodraven, that was Bloodraven, and went really fast. And I thought, is that supposed to be Bloodraven?

[00:07:39] And I actually didn't see the birthmark on his face, but other people noticed that it was there. And you see the three-eyed crow, three-eyed raven. And of course you see Daenerys' eggs and Daenerys. But for me, and this comes right back to your point, Veronica, the most important

[00:07:59] part of that vision is that Daemon sees Rhaenyra on the throne, and that is what guides him to what he has to do. And Rhaenyra looks damn good on that throne, I have to say. She looks very regal, she looks like a monarch.

[00:08:18] Then Daemon sees Helene, who speaks to him. She says, now you see your part. And when I saw that, I thought that Daemon sees Helene, but it's really Alice speaking and Helene is just Daemon's envisioning in the vision, in the dream of who's speaking.

[00:08:41] But Ryan Condal said, again in the official podcast, that this is the time in the world of maximum magic because there are so many dragons alive. And we learned in Game of Thrones that magic went out of the world when the last

[00:09:00] of the dragons died and before Daenerys has her dragons, there are no dragons at that time. And so there's very little magic in the world and then magic starts becoming more and more viable because the dragons have been hatched.

[00:09:13] So this is a time where there's lots of magic because there's lots of dragons. And Ryan Condal said that actually is Helene that Daemon is seeing on a different magic channel who just happened to have intersected with the magic channel that Daemon was on.

[00:09:32] So I really liked that whole vision, that whole sequence. I thought a really good culmination for Daemon's whole plot at Harrenhal. And did you notice as he and Alice are walking towards the Weirwood, by the root of the Weirwood, you see just a glimpse of a figure.

[00:09:52] Now I'm seeing people say that that was a child of the forest. My first thought was that it was a green man. Green men are mythical beings who live on the Isle of Faces and the Isle of

[00:10:04] Faces is right out there in the lake that Harrenhal's sitting on. And I was pretty sure that it looked, that figure looked like it had antlers. It did and there were horse hooves on the stones as it walked.

[00:10:19] So that's got to be a green man, not a child of the forest. Children of the forest don't have antlers. So I don't know why people are talking about it as a child of the forest. Whatever it was, it was interesting.

[00:10:32] Maybe we'll get to see more of those, I hope. I have a couple points about this. I will say that of the entire episode, this was one of my favorite parts. And I know I've been critical of the Daemon vision quest that we've been on for eight episodes.

[00:10:52] One thing I thought was Broome attempts to lure Daemon in to basically overthrow Rhaenyra, which, of course, he doesn't do. And I don't think at the point that Broome said that he was ever going to do

[00:11:07] that. But my question is, will he pay for that in some way? I was surprised he didn't pay for it already. Mm hmm. Might let it go. Well, I think that is a huge, a huge question for each and every one of

[00:11:22] these characters. Will they pay or how will they pay for the things that they've done? Because there's almost no one who hasn't done something that was not great at this point. Right. So for Alice Rivers, are we to imagine that they're lovers?

[00:11:42] I mean, she's in his bedroom at night. Yeah. Privilege to her sleeping schedule. It seemed to me, I wondered about that, but it seemed to me more that he just woke up and there she was out of nowhere. Yeah.

[00:11:55] And that wasn't the first time that she'd done that. Yeah. I almost thought, like, is she real or is she not real? Is she part of the hallucination? We've seen other people acknowledge her existence. Yeah, not much. She's real. Yeah. She's real.

[00:12:13] And I think next season we will see just how real she is. She's real. Yeah. I thought up to this point, we've really only seen Damon in one kind of this 2D character. Like, he believes in strength and power in the Targaryen line.

[00:12:36] He believes in his own power, the power that he wields with his sword, with his dragon. And he became very angry and upset with Rhaenyra when she talked about Aegon's vision and her father passing that down to her.

[00:12:57] And I think this was his way of finally being able to believe in something else, believe in the words that Rhaenyra spoke. Yes. Even the visions that he's been seeing to believe that maybe his place is

[00:13:17] putting somebody else on that throne, which I'm not sure up to this point he really believed. Like, he was supportive of it, but was he 100% behind it? Yeah, I think that's right. Yeah, the first time he's believed in anything higher than himself, right? Definitely.

[00:13:36] I liked the scenes of them two coming back together. I don't think we needed eight episodes to make it happen. But I did like the outcome, and I loved when Rhaenyra just took that step back and said, and who do you serve in front of the entire...

[00:13:54] Like, she was not there to play. And I thought that was really great. It showed a really powerful move for her. Like, she's just laying it all on the line. Like, this is it. Yes. So I liked... I've always loved the two of them together.

[00:14:09] They just sparkle and crackle with chemistry, and we have missed that. Mm-hmm. Yes. Yeah. Agreed. Totally agreed. All right. Back to you, Veronica. I guess since we all got to talk about Daemon. Yeah. I had a small point, and it references a little bit of this anyway.

[00:14:29] So I'll just go to that. It was just sort of the accumulation of betrayals that continue to add up. And we saw a few more this episode. And so you just mentioned Alfred Broom asking Daemon to clear himself over

[00:14:44] Raniro with the line, what we need in this moment is a king, which was gross in general as a woman. But particularly with current US political events was particularly like poignant, I suppose, with some of the comments that I've heard thrown around recently about women in leadership roles.

[00:15:07] And so that was a gross moment. And like you said, Wendy, I wonder if he will pay and I hope he does because it just, I mean, shouldn't surprise me. That's the theme of this whole show is the patriarchy. But just made me angry at at Sir Broom.

[00:15:28] Yep. And then technically, I mean, I don't know if this really fits into the column of betrayal, but Simon Strong definitely went behind Damon's back to warn Raniro. I think it was the right move. I was honestly surprised because I guess I've just seen Simon Strong

[00:15:48] as acquiescing to survive and not really known. Does he truly believe in Raniro's cause or what does he care about? Is it just sort of his survival or is there more there?

[00:16:00] And so it was sort of nice to see him step up and, you know, in a way, stand up to Damon. And then some of the other betrayals, Laris sneaking Egen away. So we saw the seeds of Laris sort of beginning to betray Eamon.

[00:16:19] I think again, I don't fault him that betrayal. I think I would make the same decision. But so Laris taking Egen away. And I think, I guess it's only Maester Orwell that was also in cahoots of knowing what was going on because some of Alison's conversation with Raniro.

[00:16:38] I was trying to decide if Alison knew that Egon was going to be escaping King's Landing, but she did not seem aware of that in that conversation. And I guess you could argue whether we believe that whole conversation or not.

[00:16:54] But it seems like that's just Laris and Egon going off. Can we talk about the fact that Laris has stolen all of the crown's gold and hidden it somewhere? Yeah. Oh, I thought he said all of Harrenhal's wealth. I didn't realize he said the crown's gold.

[00:17:15] I thought it was all of the gold. Oh, yeah, I thought he said the royal treasury. Yeah. He may have. Yeah, I just might not have clocked it well. Which I thought was really weird because in the book, Tyland Lannister divides the royal treasury in three

[00:17:36] and sends it to three different places. And that becomes very important later on. So the idea that Laris was doing something with the treasury seemed very strange. Yeah. Yeah. And what was your plan if Egon said, no, I'm staying here? And you've already taken the gold.

[00:17:54] Ha ha, I've got your money. You're coming anyways. I don't think Egon has the capacity to say yes or no to anything at this point, especially Laris. I mean, Egon could say, no, I'm not doing rehab. I'm the king.

[00:18:10] You can't make me walk up and down this room with a faulty cane. But he doesn't. He doesn't have any willpower. He doesn't have any capacity, it seems, to assert himself at all. Now we see him begging so sadly for a little bit of rum

[00:18:25] put on his drink. It was just so sad. Yeah, yeah, he's a much reduced version of himself. Yes. Which is not all bad, but it is pitiful. And then the only other betrayal I had, and I feel like this is a whole separate point,

[00:18:45] so I won't go into the details of it, but just, Alicent basically betrays the entire green side by going to Raniro. Right now she's only betrayed them in promises. We'll see what comes of it. She's fed them sort of a timeline of Aiman's plans. They betrayed Alicent. Yes.

[00:19:10] They used her when she was the queen, and they used her when she was the queen mother, and they took every ounce of power away from her. I mean, I'm not saying it's OK, but that's what happens. Yeah, no, I don't think necessarily all these betrayals

[00:19:31] are bad things. In fact, I feel like most of them, other than Alfred, make sense to me, and were actually somewhat honorable betrayals given the situation. I don't want to really call Laris honorable, but they were decisions that betrayals that made sense, I guess is the better phrase.

[00:19:50] No, I don't think Laris has any good motivations for anybody. But it was a reasonable choice. I in that situation also probably would have tried to flee. I mean, I do think what Laris said was probably true, that Aegon's life was definitely in danger. Oh, yeah.

[00:20:08] So I don't think he lied in that way. And I do think he was trying to save his life, but the question is why. For what purpose? Yeah, it wasn't altruistic. No. To his own ends. Aegon is his poker chip at this point. Right.

[00:20:24] That was all I had. OK, my next point is when oh when is Corlys going to acknowledge Alan and Adam? Wow, that scene between Alan and Corlys was really powerful. I loved it that Alan just let him have it.

[00:20:45] And it's very much in the keeping of this theme of this season about the small folk, right? Because Alan is describing what it's like to be an ordinary common person, be in the market from dawn to dusk to try to put some pennies by against the winter,

[00:21:04] watching the rich people come and buy luxuries. I thought the scene was very well done in that Corlys does not, he doesn't blink. You can see that this is a very painful confrontation for him, but he does not have it in him

[00:21:24] to see it from the perspective that Alan is describing, because he's so wrapped up in his self-made man identity. He went out and he's high born, but the Valerians weren't wealthy before he went out and did his nine voyages and made them

[00:21:44] the wealthiest people in the seven kingdoms. There's such a barrier between the two of them, but eventually, and he has the conversation with Renear, and he doesn't own up that Adam is his son. Adam doesn't own up to it, and Corlys doesn't own up to it.

[00:22:05] And eventually, this is going to come out, and I'm very interested to see where they go with this storyline in season three of that relationship between Corlys and his two sons. Also, in that big speech, Alan says that Corlys' two legitimate children are dead,

[00:22:27] which is what everyone, including Corlys, believes, but we know that Lainor wasn't really killed when everybody believes he was. So are we supposed, but they keep telling us Lainor is dead in various ways. Are we supposed to believe that Lainor has died,

[00:22:45] and that's why Adam couldn't bond with sea smoke, or are they just not going to address that issue at all? I think that they're hinting around, very strongly hinting around, that Lainor is dead, but they haven't come out and made that explicit.

[00:23:04] I don't think we're going to see Lainor again, or if we do, it'll be like a snippet of what's going on with him. I don't think he'll come back. He can't possibly come back, because that would set up something completely untenable,

[00:23:18] which is a dragon that has two riders, and that can't be. But I think we could see a snippet of him somewhere. After this episode, I feel like anything's possible. I know anything is possible. I just came out of that conversation

[00:23:34] just feeling so sad for both of them. We know that bastards are a way of life in this land, but there's no reason why Adam and Alan should have gone hungry. I mean, it's just unforgivable. That's right. And Corlys is still acting like he's done those

[00:23:59] to a big favor. Yeah. And that was really hard to watch. I mean, everything our Alan said was absolutely true. Those were hard things to hear, but they were true. Yes. I'm glad he got the chance to say those things to Corlys.

[00:24:16] And I hope Corlys tries to make amends, but you can't go back. It's too little, too late. You can never have the relationship that maybe you should have had. Yes. But it made me sad for both of them because Corlys is left with so little

[00:24:34] and now he's grasping onto the things that he has left and you can't fix it. That's right. Yeah. Yep. All right, I'm just gonna rip the band-aid off. I liked this season. I liked this episode. I mean, there was one scene,

[00:24:54] I think it was when we were watching Amand and Vegar from a certain perspective while we saw the city in the background burning. So cool. Like just the coolest visuals ever. Like it's been amazing. But I have to say, like I felt like watching this episode was bizarre.

[00:25:16] It felt like all the writers had just gotten fired and the new writers didn't know what had happened previously. There were three long scenes of people that they told us everything we ever wanted to know in this odd word vomit after eight episodes of not knowing anything.

[00:25:37] It was the scene between Gawain and Cole, the scene between the two of them, the scene between Gawain and Cole, the scene between Laris and Aegon, and the scene between Alison and Reneira. I just found it really odd. It took me out of the episode. One second watch,

[00:25:58] I could listen to the dialogue a bit more and appreciate it. But at the time I was like, what is happening? It was so odd and just not well done. I'm sorry, I'm just gonna say it. I think that this season really suffered

[00:26:16] from the writer's strike and from HBO giving them only eight episodes because they had planned for 10. And this whole episode kind of seemed to me like a trailer for season three that montage at the end of all the setup. Which was great, I loved that.

[00:26:36] I had thought that there are two major events which now are gonna clearly happen at the beginning of season three that I thought would be the end of this season and they didn't get there. And they didn't get to either one of them.

[00:26:50] I think it's because they got cut down to eight episodes instead of 10. And I think that that really wrecked the shape of the season. Definitely. I still feel like they just did weird things. Beyond the examples you gave also weird,

[00:27:11] but like how we kept going back to Reyna for like little snippets. Oh my God, for 10 seconds at a time. OMG. That should have been one segment, just one at the end of her finding. And she never actually touches the dragon. I know.

[00:27:29] But I feel like that is an example of the things I feel like they did all season long. And sometimes it wasn't always condensed into one episode like that. Sometimes it was over multiple episodes, but just things that needed to be slightly more condensed together.

[00:27:46] Or cohesive in some ways. Because otherwise it just felt like a random snippet until four episodes later that suddenly it makes sense but it wasn't a big enough payoff. I agree 100%. For the amount of slow build. And I'm still enjoying this show

[00:28:04] and I still enjoyed a lot about this episode but I was disappointed. Like you said, it felt like a trailer for season three not a conclusion to season two. Yeah and I hope they get it together and have a good long time.

[00:28:22] I'm sure it'll be a while before we see the next season. Take all the time you need HBO. Have a good long time to get this worked out because this was not, it just did not live up to season one in my opinion. Yeah, interesting.

[00:28:40] I mean there's still lots of great things here but it was just something, it just could have been better if it had been put together. And like you said Reni, two more full episodes probably would have made a big difference too. It was like, they were like,

[00:28:57] oh we're running out of time let's just have a bunch of talk, talk, talk. Like season one ended with something really horrifying Luke's death and then that amazing shot of Renear, right? There is something that could have ended season two

[00:29:14] that would have had as much or more impact and that's where I originally thought they would go. They just couldn't get there with what they had to work with. Yeah. And one of the things I thought was an effective ending with a little bit of a climax

[00:29:34] rather than anticlimax might have been just have Renear get on the damn dragon, right? It would have been better. But then I thought maybe they didn't have enough money left to do that. Yeah, I get it. Yeah. And I think I'm not alone.

[00:29:53] I've read some of the feedback and I feel like a lot of people are feeling the same way. Yeah. There was really good stuff in it. It's enough to keep me going. I'm excited about season three. I like the turn of events. I really do.

[00:30:10] I just not sure, like it was crazy how we got there. Yeah. Back to you, Veronica. I'll talk a little bit about the dragon seeds. Yeah. Because that was somewhat lighter. Wolf is basically exactly as I expected him to be, messy and uncouth and making everyone irritable.

[00:30:36] But I have to say, what did they expect? He hasn't grown up in a place where he had these types of manners ingrained in him. Okay, appropriate to correct him when he's rude to the queen and the prince, but can we also give him an ounce of grace?

[00:30:55] He's saving your butt here and had no preparation for the suddenly being his life. So I'm sure I'll eat my words at some point for having compassion for Wolf, but I do in this moment a little bit. I've kind of liked his scenes. He brings something to it,

[00:31:15] especially the last scene in the montage of building up to the army, he looked more serious. And even like he had his hair brushed and he just looked more like a dragon rider and more serious about the whole situation. So.

[00:31:35] And he says he can take Veigar on by himself. So we'll see that. I loved Adam retorting, there'll be time enough to see which of us is a coward. That was pretty good. And he already seems very bonded to his dragon. You can see there's care there.

[00:31:51] There's already this bond growing. So. Well, perhaps one of the things that we're meant to see is the way how bonding with the dragon changes you. That Ulf has become more aggressive because now he's bonded with a dragon. Because there is this subtext in the story.

[00:32:12] Dragon riders really are different. And part of that difference is that the personality of the dragon affects the person and the personality of the person affects the dragon. Like it was awkward with the three of them, but yet that's the new family. Like they're dragon riders together

[00:32:35] and they have to figure it out if they wanna win. Yeah. Well, and Ulf and Hugh aren't just dragon riders, they're cousins. Right. You know, they're cousins, they're relatives, they're bastards, but they are Targaryens. They were both given a very specific Targaryen lineage. Right. Yeah.

[00:32:58] Adam's unknown because he hasn't owned up, right? But everybody at that table knows who Hugh and Ulf are. I saw a little reel on TikTok of the actor playing Ulf talking about this scene. And you know, he keeps asking for some more of these little birds. Yeah.

[00:33:18] And he's just giving him in his face the whole scene. He ate over 20 birds for this scene. Like- Oh my gosh. Because they had to keep reshooting it, but he was just like, I'm committing, we're doing this. I thought that was- That's great. Very funny.

[00:33:32] Very much like the character. I was gonna say, he seems to have the same energy as Ulf which was really fun to see. Yeah, I like that. And then yeah, then the other piece of this scene that I think is probably going to come into play next season

[00:33:50] was Ulf and Hugh's reaction to being asked to kill innocents when they had been told they were basically coming in to be a show of strength. I think Baelor also reacted to that pretty strongly. Adam seems ready to be a warrior.

[00:34:11] I don't think he's going to take pleasure in it, but he's ready to be a knight and to serve the queen. And to do what it takes. But I'm curious how, if in season three they indeed do have to go down that path,

[00:34:25] how that's going to play out in everyone's psyche. Especially given Ulf and Hugh and Adam grew up among the people that are innocent in all this and are being asked to harm those people. Yeah. I wasn't quite sure, you know, as Rhaenyra is telling them

[00:34:49] that that's what she wants them to go do, which is to go attack the Hightower and the Lannister cities and armies. Are Baelor and Jace being included in that discussion too? Is she saying all five of you are going out? Because Baelor seemed upset about it

[00:35:07] and Jace said, no, this is what we need to do. So that was my assumption that it wasn't just the three new riders. It was all five of them that she's asking. I think it's all five. If they're going to take Veigar,

[00:35:20] they're going to need every single one. Plus Rhaenyra. I would think so. I think that makes the most sense, but I just was curious if that was- Especially if Dreamfire gets into it. Cause then that's another big giant dragon. Yeah. Yeah. Although Helena said it pretty firm, new.

[00:35:41] Yeah, she did. I'm curious if that stays strong next season. I think it will. She didn't seem interested. Why would she? She seemed to know that it wasn't going to make a difference. So the only other thing I had to say, it's a little bit dragon seed tangential,

[00:36:00] but I laughed so hard when Baelor came in to tell Jace not to pout, because I don't think that boy knows a different face besides a pout. But man, she was just really wise in that moment and seemed older than her years

[00:36:18] in her counsel of him to sort of like suck it up. Like, yeah, it's not ideal, but we needed these people to help us win this and you need to own who you are and where you came from instead of letting other people control that narrative.

[00:36:32] And I just thought that was a really fantastic scene and made me like her even more than I already did. She's fantastic. Yeah, I love Baelor. All right, Ren? Okay. Who has auto prisoner? What is up with that? That came just out of nowhere.

[00:36:54] Like four seconds of it. I know. Like what the heck? So I had to even play it back to think, who is that? Who is that? It's auto high tower. So I've heard a lot of speculation. One is that it's Larrice who has him prisoner.

[00:37:11] One is that it's the Tyrells who are holding him because last season, Alison told him don't go home to Old Town. Go to the Tyrells. Or the Beesberries because they blame him for Lyman's death. Or that it's Dalton Greyjoy, the red kraken.

[00:37:31] So basically nobody has any idea whatsoever who actually is holding auto prisoner or for what purpose. What about Messaria? Yeah. Oh my gosh, it could be Messaria. She hates him. Yes. But again, that is such a bizarre scene to play four episodes after we've seen him.

[00:37:55] It doesn't have the weight or the heaviness that it would have had had we been keeping up with what auto has done. True. Hey, nobody wanted auto to get eaten by dogs more than me. Why didn't we get to see some of that? So weird. Yeah.

[00:38:13] Again, I think that was prepping for next season. Yes. Yeah. Clearly we'll come back to auto next season. Yeah. I agree. I'm gonna talk about Helena because I loved that we got more Helena this episode. I've really been interested in her

[00:38:32] and wanted to see them develop that character more. I had always thought that there might be something more between Aemond and Helena, but these scenes kind of showed me that there wasn't. There did not seem to be any connection between them

[00:38:49] other than brother and sister or dragon riders. And at first he's just a bully trying to force his will on her. I mean, he's physically grabbing her, not letting her give no for an answer. And then she comes to Daemon in his dreams, which is interesting

[00:39:08] because I don't even think we've ever seen the two of them together. Just at the big family gathering right before Viserys died, I think that's the only time we've seen them together. And that was everybody in the same room. Right. But it was interesting that immediately after that,

[00:39:24] we see Aemond come to her in person, taking a different tact, trying to be sweet, trying to be nice, trying to get her to go along with him in a different way. Helena only has truths to tell Aemond. And it was really interesting

[00:39:47] because he was obviously hurt and upset at her words, mostly because I think he absolutely believes them. Yeah, she tells him that she knows how he's gonna die. Yeah. And you can see tears in his eyes. Like it was a really powerful scene between the two of them.

[00:40:05] And I loved it. But I also just love that's her. Like he threatens her twice. He says, I could have you killed. This is treason. And she just keeps coming back at him and says, it's not gonna change what I'm saying.

[00:40:24] And I really liked that scene between the two of them. And it kind of for me put to rest any ideas that there was something between them because it did not seem like it. Yeah, I agree. I agree. And it put the kibosh on some speculation

[00:40:40] that I'm very glad to have the kibosh put on. And that is, so in the book, Aegon and Helena have three children. They have a younger son. And evidently in an interview, Ryan Condal said he hasn't been born yet. So then everybody's speculating,

[00:40:59] oh my God, is that son going to be born? Is it gonna be Aegon and Helena or is it gonna be Aemond and Helena? Right, and how could it be Aegon's if he has no cock? And now we know that it can't be Aegon's

[00:41:14] because his penis exploded like a sausage. That was a description I could have gone without. That was such a, not funny, but kind of amusing scene with Lairs just keep talking about the future and this and that. And Aegon's talking about his pissing. Pissing down his leg, yeah.

[00:41:36] Yes, it's like I don't think you get where he's at, Lairs. But clearly because this scene shows us that there is nothing romantic between Aemond and Helena. Yeah. That that's not gonna happen. I can't imagine it would. So I think Ryan Condal just saying

[00:41:55] he isn't born yet was just misdirection. That there is never gonna be that child. Knowing nothing about the books, maybe Helena's gonna get on Dreamfire and go for Team Black. Wow, you guessed it, Wendy. That's exactly what happens. Hey, you never know anything could happen at this point.

[00:42:17] I thought you were gonna say get on Dreamfire. Alison gets on Dreamfire. Oh yeah, no, that Helena would get on Dreamfire with her daughter, Jahara, and ride off to become one of the wives of Shikaro Lohar in Tye Bosh. Yeah, he's got a few.

[00:42:38] Yeah, I think that'd be great. I think that's equally possible. All right, let's see, what have we not talked about? Let's talk about Krispy Kohl and his exposition. Yeah. Still hate him, still want him to burn, but did appreciate that he sorta knows where he's been a shit.

[00:43:07] I don't know, yes it was exposition, but I liked a few of the things that he said of just sort of explaining who he is or what his philosophy is, I guess. Or yeah, just that he sort of has realized

[00:43:23] no one is actually righteous, there is no true honor, there's just people. He says perhaps all men are corrupt and honor is a mist that melts away in the morning. Yeah, and I don't think that's completely wrong. So often we're looking for people to be good or bad

[00:43:46] and yeah, I mean, in this show, certainly no one is good or bad, right? They've all done good and terrible things. They're all hateful and loving depending on the situation and you know, I mean that is real, right? Like that is real life.

[00:44:03] I mean, we're not all doing the atrocities that have been committed in this show, but I mean, that is the human condition, I think, right, to be complex creatures and we're not all in one clear good or bad bucket. I mean, there's shades of right and wrong,

[00:44:21] but Kristen is real dark in the wrong. He has done atrocity after atrocity after atrocity. I have a question, how did Gawain know? So this is something that I have a problem with in this scene. Yeah. He was watching when Alison and Kristen

[00:44:44] were saying goodbye and he saw Alison pull that handkerchief out and hand it to Kristen and then he sees Kristen smelling it and I think he just puts it together. He also saw the way they were looking at each other, like he knows his sister.

[00:45:00] I think that's a far leap. It is a far leap from just coal spilling everything and I also think that it doesn't really work that Gawain knows about this because this is like a big, big deal. It's no longer treason because Alison is a widow

[00:45:24] but it's still misbehavior on Alison's part and it's a total breaking of- His oath. Kristen's vows and so it's, yeah. I mean, it's not okay. Kristen does that daily more though. And Gawain knowing about it and not gonna do something about it in the future,

[00:45:43] that just, it hit me wrong. The whole scene was odd. Like so she has his handkerchief. He is her sworn protector and has been for 15 years. He's sniffing it. He's got it up to his nose. I know but that does not make an affair have happened.

[00:46:06] I don't know. I mean, I feel like you can smell that kind of stuff on people. To me, it didn't seem far-fetched that her brother would at least throw the accusation out. I can understand that. I just, it just was so bizarre

[00:46:19] that they've kept this secret for this entire season. Almost to the point where they barely acknowledged it to themselves. Yeah, right. And then just word vomit. We just, we just spew it all out but I guess because we're running out of time and we got it.

[00:46:42] And I did one second watch. I liked what he had to say. Well, he's also like designed to death. He knows, or well in his head, he's marching to death. Like he saw that last battle of dragon with a couple dragons and knows worse is to come.

[00:47:00] And so I think that's why he didn't cater to spill it cause he doesn't think he's going back and what he said to Gawain. So I think he welcomes death at this point. Yes. Yeah, he said to die will be a kind of relief.

[00:47:13] And I think he knows Gawain won't tarnish his family name on it. Like it's not worth it. She's the queen. Like she's not the queen anymore. Yes, it makes him angry but the paramour is probably about to die on the battlefield. And if he reveals what he knows

[00:47:31] he's only damaging his own family's name. And so I think, I still think it was too much exposition. I'm not completely disagreeing with you at all but I can understand why he spilled it. And they were saying it around other people. Other people were watching and listening.

[00:47:47] That was dumb. That was dumb. It should have been more removed. I was just like what is happening? I think the other people were supposed to be out of earshot. I don't think they were supposed to be hearing the conversation.

[00:47:58] They were just watching because Gawain had this sword pointing at Kristen originally. It was odd. I thought that the, you know, after thinking about it more I think the point was that this is Kristen's broken man speech. Like the broken man speech in Game of Thrones.

[00:48:17] That part I liked. I just didn't like Gawain confronting him about sleeping with his sister. It was off. The scene was off. And like I said, when I watched it the second time I'm invested in Kristen and Allison. I think their story is really interesting.

[00:48:36] And I liked what he had to say. I just, it was hard because of the way we got there. Makes sense. Yeah. That final set of shots of Rhaenyra and Alicent. That was some really great cinematography. Yeah. You see one after the other

[00:48:58] and they're facing in opposite directions which shows where they're at. They're, you know, even though they've made this disagreement they are in opposing camps. So those facing opposite directions is indicative of their conflict. And we see Rhaenyra behind all those scrolls in that library room.

[00:49:24] So the weight of history and of prophecy is what's driving her. And Alicent is standing in front of the sunset that her son is setting indicating that her time of power is over. And I just thought so much was conveyed just through those visual images

[00:49:50] that it was really beautiful and just really impressive visuals storytelling. So I really loved that sequence. Did you see the tear coming down Rhaenyra's face? Yeah. I thought that was really nice touch. Yes. It was, I loved the ending montage. Loved it.

[00:50:12] It made me excited for next season. Yeah. I'll just continue to talk about Alicent. Alicent tells Aamund very plainly that she would not see them win at any cost which is definitely she's the only person thinking that way. Maybe Helena would be on her side with that

[00:50:30] but everybody else is all out war. Like Aamund is so convinced that it doesn't matter what they do because they're in a fight for survival. So he has the right and the just to burn cities to the ground to do whatever he needs to do to prevail.

[00:50:48] And then she kind of plots to take Helena and her grandson away from the war and give Rhaenyra the throne in an act against her own children. And I think in the end, she has to know that that could mean the loss of, I mean, she basically agrees

[00:51:07] that Rhaenyra is going to kill Aegon but she has to know that could also mean the loss of Aamund, of Kristen, of Gawain, of Otto, of her entire house. Like she has to know that she could lose everything. Yeah. I think that she probably trusts Rhaenyra

[00:51:27] would spare, would be Helena, you know? And her grandchildren. And even that would be shaky but I feel like that's what she's banking on. Yeah. And I think this is her way of attempting to set things right. I think since the moment they attempted to usurp Rhaenyra,

[00:51:47] she has known that she's not been in the right. And especially since she has come to believe it was not Viserys's wishes. Which I do believe in the beginning, she did think that. But now that she knows it was all set up in a mistake,

[00:52:04] I think this is her way of setting things to right. I know that people will still criticize Alison's previous actions but at this point, what else could she do? I mean, she's either going to just keep living as the queen mother in whatever role they allow her

[00:52:25] or she's going to try to do something and she's trying to do something. I don't believe it's a setup. I do believe she means what she says. I doubt it will go away. She thinks it will. But I do believe she means what she says

[00:52:37] and that that would be a big sacrifice for her to me to set things right. And so I gave her a lot of props for doing that. And then Alison asking Rina to run away with her was just like, so it was like they were the 14 year olds

[00:52:56] underneath the God's tree again. You know? And it was really sad of what could have been and what all the scheming and the men's manipulation has done to them. And they'll never be maybe the people that they should have been. Yes, that's right.

[00:53:17] Did you notice she was wearing a blue dress? She was no longer in green. Yes, yes, a neutral color. Yep. Yeah. I liked the scene again. I had this bizarre feeling the first time I watched it. Like how is this happening? What is that?

[00:53:34] Just like all the things you wanted to hear the whole episode and you suddenly hear it. But on the second watch, I really invested in the scene and I really, it was moving and I liked it a lot. I'm still annoyed at how easy it is

[00:53:51] for people to sneak to see each other, but at least they're being consistent with how easy it is. Yeah. It doesn't even bother me because they have to find a way to get these two together. Yeah. I'd rather them pretend they're cell phones at this point. Yeah.

[00:54:09] And what's happening with the sneaking into these places? Glass candles. Glass candles. Tin cans maybe. I don't know. But yeah, there were things that was satisfying to hear Alyssa admit and to see her realize kind of why she did things. And so I'll give it that. What else?

[00:54:33] I'm down to notes. I just had sort of a rundown of where we're at with all the forces and the plans for the war. So I can run through that because I sort of needed that rundown for myself to place things.

[00:54:48] And I still need to go look back at a map to really understand because I'm terrible at directionality even in real life, let alone memorizing a map for a fantasy world. So I need to go look at it again. You actually need to buy a map.

[00:55:03] I've been so fascinated by the maps and the worlds and everything. I should buy one. Yeah. Yeah. So we have Corlys who is off in the Queen Who Never Was. That's what he renamed the ship, right? Yep. So he is going off to rejoin the blockade

[00:55:20] of King's Landing. And as he's going off, he advises Renear to strike quickly. The Triarchy Fleet is sailing to break the blockade with Lohar in Thailand. Aemond is attempting to convince Helena to take Dreamfire into battle. I feel pretty confident that's not going to happen,

[00:55:41] but there is still small, small question mark that that could potentially come into play. And they were gonna go to Harrenhal. Mm-hmm. And so yeah, Aemond is going with Vegard to meet Cole in the Riverlands where the Lannister Army is also amassing

[00:55:57] and the plan is for all of them to go march on Harrenhal because they think Damon will be there when they get there. All of that is, I guess, going to take place in about three days time because that's the timeline Alicent gives Renear

[00:56:11] to show up at King's Landing. In two days, this was prior to the conversation with Alicent about the three days to King's Landing, but when Renear was talking to the Dragon Riders about going to Oldstown and Lannisport and subduing the armies, she said in two days time,

[00:56:30] you're all going to go off to do that. So I don't know if that timeline will change because of her conversation with Alicent, but right now that was the plan. Damon has his large host of rivermen at Harrenhal and their goal is to skirt all of the armies

[00:56:49] in the Riverlands and march on King's Landing. The High Tower Army is moving through the Reach with Daron on his dragon. We saw the blue queen, Tesarion. So we just got a glimpse of the beautiful blue dragon flying over them. And then we also saw the winter wolves,

[00:57:11] which are the older Northmen, which are marching south. And I think we saw them entering the Riverlands right over that bridge. They were on the twins. I think they were crossing the bridge at the twins. The twins? Okay. I think that is everything.

[00:57:29] That's all the players that we have right now. That's a lot. It is a lot of moving pieces and parts and things I think that are all about to collide. The only question I have, so we have Reyna in the Vale

[00:57:45] and so her brothers we saw going down the mountain as she split off, but no one has said anything. I mean, I guess they're supposed to be going to Pentos because that was the plan, right? Yeah. It was just weird to me that that wasn't made more clear.

[00:58:02] I agree. They appear to have just marched off and not noticed that she was gone. Right. Again, another one of those sort of strange things, but whatever. I'm excited that she's hopefully going to get a dragon. I hope. I mean, I guess there's always the chance that-

[00:58:18] She'll get eaten. She doesn't survive her encounter with this dragon. Wouldn't that be something if the first scene of the first episode of season three is Reyna runs down to the dragon and eats her. J'Karis. I mean, I'd have to hand it to him.

[00:58:36] That would be like a Ned Stark moment, I think, where we've built up and we're all assuming one thing's going to happen. I hope not. I like her. I like this storyline. All right, I'll have our notes now too. So I noticed that all of the claimed dragons

[00:58:54] have now been added to the tapestry in the opening sequence. There's just a bunch of dragons. Interesting, they don't have riders in the tapestry. It's just the dragons, but those are clearly the dragons that have been changed. I have to say I could have done

[00:59:07] without the whole Tyland Lannister and Tyrosh, that whole section. In the behind the scenes segment, they were talking about needing some comic relief, but that whole section just seemed like a distraction from the main action. In an episode where there was so much they needed to get done,

[00:59:24] I just couldn't believe they kept going back and spending time there. I found it amusing. It should have been an episode or two earlier and more condensed, like we don't need the song. I found it all very amusing, but I thought the same thing.

[00:59:43] While I was watching it, I was like, what are we doing? Why are we here? They go from this incredibly poignant moment with Cole giving his speech, and then you immediately cut to Tyland in a WWE episode, my wrestling. It felt like a cheap repeat.

[01:00:07] I don't need another blonde Lannister covered in mud against a warrior woman, because that's what we had with Jamie and Brianne. I know this is different, but it felt too similar to me. I didn't think about those two, but it was funny just how uncomfortable he seemed,

[01:00:28] but he kept plodding along. I gave him credit. He kept going. Yeah. I think I would have been okay if it was earlier. I mean, and he secured his army for his king. That's what he did. Indeed he did. So I did think it was funny.

[01:00:48] Just like what you said, Veronica, in a different episode, in a different time, we would have loved it more. I think so, and it bums me out because I really liked Admiral Lohar, and I think that character was fantastic.

[01:01:03] She was great, and I wanted to like that more than I did, and it's just because it felt wrong with the rest of the tone of the episode. Yeah. Yeah. Probably another casualty of the eight episodes instead of 10. Yeah, you're right.

[01:01:19] I loved it when Bela points out the obvious to Jace that the paternity of many heirs is not what it's claimed to be, that many heirs are not the sons of their supposed fathers. And there's many cases of that

[01:01:35] throughout the whole A Song of Ice and Fire saga, Jon Snow being one of them. Even in real life, we're finding out about how Ancestry.com and 23andMe are, really shedding light on things, knocking some skeletons out of closets. That's right. Yeah.

[01:01:56] George R.R. Martin himself found out on Henry Louis Gates' TV show that his grandfather was not his grandfather. Mm-hmm. So yes. So as Veronica just pointed out, we see the dragon Tesarion flying with Hightower Army, being ridden by Daron at a distance. You can't see Daron.

[01:02:22] So he's been mentioned many times this season, and we were wondering if he'd show up, but clearly they have not cast him yet. So they'll cast him for next season. It was weird because there are rumors that he had been cast.

[01:02:35] And so I thought we were going to see the actual actor. And so now I'm guessing those were not true rumors. And then my final observation is Sheepstealer is one ugly dragon. Oh, I liked the way Sheepstealer looked. I loved the sort of like modeled colors.

[01:02:57] I know it's supposed to be ugly, but I don't know, I'm a sucker for mutts maybe, but. And this is a dragon that we just didn't know about. Right. I guess so. I wonder if there's others, you know, like that. Could be. That's all my notes. Okay.

[01:03:17] Yeah, I think that's the right thing that I had too. I actually have one piece of news before we do that, which is that in an interview today, Ryan Condal said that the series will conclude with season four. That it's planned for four seasons. Yes.

[01:03:35] So they're going to start work on season three in early 2025, and that the series will conclude with season four. Maybe in 2028. Yeah. I think that's good. I do think that's good. So do I. I think that that makes me very certain of where they're going to stop

[01:04:00] and not go beyond a certain point. Some of the best series that I've seen are ones that were very well planned out. Yes. Had a finite number of seasons, and were not just going to keep going till it's dead. Yes. You know, like the walking dead. Yes.

[01:04:21] I think that's good. Like some of my favorite series were like Breaking Bad that was really kind of developed that way. They really had it all together. And I think Lost suffered from that. Yeah. Not having a planned out series as well. So I think that's good.

[01:04:43] And I'm glad it's not just one more season. I want to see more. And we got a very small teaser, a teaser trailer for a spinoff. Did you guys see that? Oh, from Nine to the Seven Kingdoms. Yeah, yeah. Yes. Tell me about that.

[01:05:02] Okay, so there is a series of novellas that are set 80 years before Robert's Rebellion. So there are two characters in that who are still alive in the Game of Thrones time period. And it's the adventures of Dunk and Egg.

[01:05:26] And Dunk is Sir Duncan the Tall, who is a hedge knight. And Egg is Aegon, son of a Targaryen prince, ultimately becomes Aegon the Fifth. And he's called Aegon the Unlikely because he is the fourth son of a fourth son.

[01:05:46] So the fact that he ends up inheriting is weird. He runs away and becomes the squire to this hedge knight and adventures in Sue. Oh, that sounds good. It's a very beloved series. It's not as dark and heavy as this show or as Game of Thrones.

[01:06:05] It's a mix of serious and comic. I've seen a video where, and so Egg, that he's like eight years old, he shaves his head to hide his Targaryen hair. So he looks like a little egg. And I saw a video of the young actor

[01:06:22] getting his head shaved and he was so into it. And I think he's gonna be great. I think the actor that they've cast to be, Sir Duncan the Tall, looks great. So I'm really looking forward to this series. It's gonna have a lot less special effects.

[01:06:38] So this is already being filmed. Yeah. Yes. It's in production right now. And it will show on HBO. Yes. That's great. That's exciting. Give them all to me. I'll take them all. I think those will be fun. Yeah. There's also four animated series in development.

[01:07:00] Who knows whether they'll ever come to the screen. Right. But I think the Dunk and Egg series is probably the easiest thing to make as a TV show because there are fewer special effects. There are no dragons at that point. Right. So there's no dragons to animate.

[01:07:17] And so it'll just look like a medieval setting. Yeah, that sounds great. Yeah. I'm excited about that. I'm excited forward to it. Me too. All right. All right. Let's have some listener feedback. Alicia Stout says, wow, wow, wow. What a fantastic buildup to what I presume

[01:07:45] will be a huge opening to next season. Gulp. First off, I want to once again shout out Ramin Jewadi and his awesome music on this episode and all episodes of House of the Dragon and Game of Thrones. And Alicia, yes, thank you for pointing that out.

[01:08:01] I think I've been remiss in not saying anything about it. I love Ramin Jewadi's music. Alicia goes on. I find it fascinating how he sprinkles in even the smallest of notes that you recognize while watching. For example, I'm not sure if anyone has noticed,

[01:08:18] but a few episodes this season, I've heard some notes of Shireen's song when dragons are mentioned. In this episode, when the armies are gathering to march, you hear this theme song for the sharks and the Lannisters, which I thought was a nice touch.

[01:08:33] Nothing makes me happier than to see a Lannister be completely covered in mud, shamed, embarrassed, and humiliated all in one episode. Lohar was amazing and gave me serious Brienne of Tarth vibes. The many names she called Thailand had me chuckling. I swear, if this isn't fan service,

[01:08:50] I don't know what is. How about that flash bang future snip of the three-eyed raven, Dany the dragon eggs, White Walkers, Night King, eek! Death of the dragons and destruction. Winter is coming. That was a phenomenal scene and so powerful. I think I may have gasped out loud.

[01:09:10] Daemon's fealty to his wife sure is romantic, LOL. Poor Helena, that girl needs therapy, stat. Aemond is such a tool. I just wanna punch him in the other eye. Instead, he got to hear his sister's premonition and he will die in the god's eye. That's a better punch.

[01:09:36] Found it interesting, the meetup between Alicent and Raniera and how opposite they were to the first time they met. Now I have a really bad feeling Alicent is tricking Raniera into arriving at King's Landing with gates wide open. Or Alicent is just that naive

[01:09:51] to think all will be just dandy. Oof, chaos is a ladder. Ulf is yuck and disrespectful. Jace needs to shut up and move on. Corley's got a verbal slap in the face. Daron, auto in a cell. Crispy has PTSD. Lena found her sheep eating dragon.

[01:10:11] Phew, so much happened in this finale. It's hard to keep up. Thanks to all of you for a fantastic podcast this season and I look forward to hearing more in the future. Reni, you are a walking encyclopedia to the Game of Thrones universe.

[01:10:24] Have you thought of doing your own podcast breakdown of the books? I would listen to that all day long. Wendy, I would also like to thank Chris Elliott who wrote in to let us know where we could find more information on Ulf and Hugh.

[01:10:37] If you go to a wiki of ice and fire, it covers these characters and so much more. So thanks for that Chris. Yeah, thank you Chris. And yeah, Chris had sent an email separately that pointed us to the wiki which has everything you ever wanted to know.

[01:10:57] Yes, it does. I know they're almost weekly. Yeah. I love that. I try not to just because I don't wanna be spoiled but I have started the book starting from the very beginning. So I've got a ways to go and I'm a slow reader.

[01:11:12] Yeah, it starts with Agon's conquest. So you've got 129 years to go. I'm pretty much through Agon's lifetime so far. So yeah, it's good though. And I also wanted to squeeze in some feedback that my daughter sent me and I didn't wanna retype it from messenger

[01:11:34] so I'm just gonna read it. I would say she was a little upset about the episode. She wrote, I hated it. I would have rather watched the life leave Melyse's eyes again than end the season on that episode. We couldn't even get Reyna attempting to claim

[01:11:50] Sheepstealer without making it three episodes stretched across two seasons. The writing just feels lazy. It's like the writers are afraid that the audience is stupid enough to miss any foreshadowing less obvious than shoving Ulf is a bad guy down our throats in like four separate scenes

[01:12:07] and having every other character ignore it. Maybe it's because they're insistent on cramming a six season story into 30 episodes, eight of which they find narrating Daemon finding himself. There is no justification for cutting two episodes and an hour of screen time versus last season.

[01:12:26] Game of Thrones era foreshadowing was like Tywin skinning a stag in his first appearance. The Rat King story foreshadowing the phrase even Danny scalding bath and picking the dragon eggs out of the first foreshadowing her being unburnt. Come on.

[01:12:46] She wrote, the only upside is that maybe we might be close to ending Daemon's for godforsaken side quest in Harrenhal. I would rather have watched a seven episode spin off of Reyna freezing to death in the veil in real time. I think sir, what's his name turn cloak

[01:13:03] who offered to betray Reneira for Daemon is going to die horrifically probably by Daemon's hand. I did appreciate Reneira's lines in her conversation with Daemon. Also a fan of Simon's awkward happy clapping in the background as Daemon rallied the troops. Helena telling Amon his future was pretty satisfying

[01:13:23] and a bit chilling. Maybe the only scenes I actually enjoyed were the ones with her and Alicent. Laugh my ass off at Alicent saying, Aegon still listens to her like honey the last time you gave him advice he went drunk flying to his permanent incapacitation delusional.

[01:13:40] Feels like Admiral what's her name is just an appeal to what these people think the audience wants. Maybe they captured the straight white male audience with the mud wrestling scene I guess. I hated it. It was the worst.

[01:13:52] That was Laney I said, tell me how you really feel. I have to say I love the passion behind it. All right. Sidebar did any of you get spoiled by the leak that happened earlier in the week because I saw the entire Daemon scene where he- You did?

[01:14:14] Yeah. I mean you chose to though. So I started to see it not realizing and I was like, ah scroll past and I was like, oh I wouldn't know and I went back and watched it but then I didn't see it were out.

[01:14:25] I saw something pop up on YouTube and it said leak and I said next. Yeah I was pretty careful I didn't see anything. Which scene was it? It was the scene where he bowed to Raniera. Okay well I feel like at least

[01:14:41] that wasn't that big of a spoiler. Yeah like I assumed it was gonna happen I did not expect it to happen like that. How was it leaked? Someone who had it legally accidentally leaked it and then people disseminated it. Oh boy, oh boy. I was a little bit,

[01:14:58] I think they got most of it taken down pretty quickly and I was like, ah you know I should have just went and looked it up and watched the whole thing cause man a week to prepare for the podcast would've been really nice. Yeah I know.

[01:15:10] I resisted and only watched the one scene. Okay we have a comment from Gijo, wait Gijo Puthia? A little disappointed that it was a setup episode instead of the war starting. The rain of stuff is really ridiculous. Overall I love the show but it does feel

[01:15:30] like it's being stretched a little to make it last longer. The Damon stuff for example was stretched although the payoff was pretty awesome. I actually love Ulf throwing a wrench and all the pretension, pretension elitism. All in all I would give it three out of five dragons.

[01:15:48] I think that's fair and I agree with all those comments. Lindsay Schlicht says, not going to lie the first 45 minutes or so really irritated me. The Thailand Lannister storyline was absolutely ridiculous. Ulf is obnoxious as fuck and 35 scenes of Raina running around the veil

[01:16:07] and still not officially claiming her dragon was annoying. Ironically enough the storyline that I've hated all season, Damon and Heron Hall is where the episode got really good for me. Show me White Walkers and Daenerys and I'm happy again. The scene with Damon joining Rhaenyra

[01:16:23] was a little drawn out but ultimately a relief that they are a joined force again. Anyone else think Aemond was going to toss Helena off the balcony? I was so worried for her. I did not care for the original Rhaenyra and Alicent conversation scene

[01:16:40] but this one was much better for me. As a book reader it came as a huge shock to consider Alicent being a part of Rhaenyra's efforts to secure the throne and ultimately even agreeing to sacrifice her son. Too bad he seems to have escaped.

[01:16:57] I really love the idea that Alicent tried to make amends. History really did paint her as evil. Emma and Olivia killed this scene. They were both amazing. I could see the young best friends in them, so sad. Some big hits and misses for me this season

[01:17:14] but I'm still enjoying the show and the podcast even more. Can't believe it's over for another two years. That just reminded me of something that Alicent and Rhaenyra were talking about that just made me so sad for Alicent when she was talking about Emma, Viserys' first wife.

[01:17:31] And you could see how she did love Viserys but she knew that whole time that she was living in the shadow of Emma. And I can't imagine what that must have felt like. That's pretty cruddy. Yeah. All right, we have a call from Steve Brown.

[01:17:51] Oh hello, House of the Dragon, or excuse me, Dragoncast. This is Steve and this is House of the Dragon season two episode eight. Aw, it's a little monkey walking on the ground there. Oh, these are the pirates you're gonna find.

[01:18:02] Oh, these are the pirates you're gonna take over the step stones, okay. Oh, so the Admiral of the Pirates is a woman and she's gonna beat this guy's ass. Well King Aegon seems to be looking a little bit better.

[01:18:13] Of course he probably still can't get out of bed but. So Rhaenyra has seven dragons? What? Did he say the queen who never was or the queen who ever was? Title of the episode, mic drop. Rhaenyra hoped that her new dragons would be a deterrent

[01:18:25] but obviously they're gonna fight. We're gonna see more dragon fights, right? And Christian Cole, the commander of the army is out in the woods doing something. Mud wrestling and she is beating him. These pirates, not cannibals. Tylin Lannister is gonna keep correcting them

[01:18:45] as every time they get his name wrong I'm sure. Rhaenyra's giving them two days to learn how to ride their dragons and take them to war. Oh, has he seen a vision of the White Walker, the king, what's that guy's name, the Night King?

[01:18:58] Wait, is Daemon gonna become the Night King? I see the three dragon eggs, what? Oh and we have dragons. Oh this confrontation between Rhaenyra and Daemon is a long time coming. Who are they sworn to? Oh and Daemon just said winter is coming.

[01:19:13] Hey well they're pledging their bend in the knee to Rhaenyra. Isn't this another one of Corlys' sons, the guy who just told him that he's gonna go on alone if he survives the war, isn't that one of his sons? Oh, Alicent looking for some forgiveness

[01:19:25] and absolution from Rhaenyra. What dragon is this that just met, is it Bela? Seriously, that's the end. Oh can't wait to hear you guys talk about this one and explain what I missed. Thanks Steve. I have to say it was telling that he drifted

[01:19:39] during the conversation with Alicent and Rhaenyra because as much as I enjoyed the points they got to it was a pretty draw. It was long. Well and they kinda kept circling back a couple times. Like a couple times she was like why are you here?

[01:19:54] I was like didn't she just say why she was here? All right this is from Sim. Hello Dragoncast, thank you for all your careful and insightful coverage. Just a quick side note, apologies if it's old news or not relevant but I got excited to hear

[01:20:11] of a British book adaptation called Starve Acre. It stars Matt Smith and Morpheth Clark so it's Damon and Galadriel in one movie. Wow. OMG, LOL. It might intrigue fans of the actors while waiting for next season or for Rings of Power.

[01:20:31] The artwork looks like it's some creepy folk horror vibe. I admit I haven't read any blurbs or reviews. I don't want any preconceptions and don't really know how good it is but the stars alone are extremely compelling in horror, e.g. Saint Maud.

[01:20:48] If it's good and or available it might be podcastica worthy material question mark? Thanks. Interesting, Damon and Galadriel. I'm definitely checking it out. Just a reminder, podcastica does cover the Rings of Power with an excellent podcast. And that's coming back later this month,

[01:21:08] the end of the month right? Oh really? We're in August. Yeah, coming up pretty soon. Yeah. That's very exciting. All right from Jenny Ryan. Did y'all have pop-up video in the States? What's missing from this show is some pop-up video bubbles that appear with explanations

[01:21:24] every time a new character or dragon appears on screen. You know Amazon does that? That's great. When you're watching on your show. So like it's really helpful actually. And I think of all the shows that could use it. This is it.

[01:21:39] This show needs maps and grids and family trees. Jenny goes on to say, either that or everyone needs name tags. My brain spent so much time trying to figure out who was who to whom that I kind of miss understanding the plot.

[01:21:55] A soap opera shouldn't be this confusing. Yeah, I feel like they could benefit from some things that help the viewers keep things straight a little more. And then Maria Lawson responded to Jenny's comment to say, I just want one that pops up

[01:22:11] when they show a castle or location because they all start to look the same to me and I never know where we are. That would be nice too. And you can see they've put a lot of effort into showing us things that I'm like,

[01:22:22] I'm sure that means something but I don't know what it is. Like in the montage, they were marching to an area where the rivers met and I'm like, I'm sure that's something that I'm supposed to know what it is but I don't know what it is.

[01:22:35] Yeah, it would be fantastic if they just did those little place names. I mean, so many shows do that. Right. And not ring about rings a power. Well, and that's what was so nice about the first Game of Thrones introduction

[01:22:48] because you kind of saw where you were going and what it looked like on the map. That's why I love that. Yeah. All right, we have a call from Sam. Hey gang. So, do my ears? I really am torn because I really enjoyed the episode.

[01:23:11] I thought it was so well done. And I'm not sure how I feel about it as a season finale. It's supposed to have seven episodes of payoff and hold me over for two more years. I was definitely at the end, I was like, eh, like now what?

[01:23:28] Oh, now nothing. Now we wait. So, you know, that's how I can tell like for me at least it was really well done. I don't know, maybe looking back on this, it'll be a bit of a misstep for the series to have five episodes of Damon at Harrenhal.

[01:23:46] Because I never bought in that he wanted the throne. I don't know, like for me, he just always wanted Viserys' undying love and unconditional love. And the throne was just a symbol of that. Like, I don't know, I never really bought into this.

[01:24:03] And I know Ryan Condal and Sarah Hess are insistent, but that is not the character I took away from in season one or frankly in season two. Even the part where they're trying to rationalize it, saying like we needed to get him to a place

[01:24:18] where he would accept what the vision would tell him. And I'm like, he rides a dragon. Like, he grew up with the stories of old Valyria. Like, they're told that they're gods, that they have magical blood or whatever. Like honestly, like how skeptical do you think he is?

[01:24:38] Like he would see it with his own fricking eyes. Everything about his reunion with Raniera was perfection. The vision was amazing. I feel really bad for Helena and Aegon and even a little bit for Aemond, who is like a psychotic toddler with a nuclear weapon at this point.

[01:24:55] I mean, oof, the scene between Alan and Corlys, incredible, incredible. I watched it like a couple of times. It made me cry. It was so good. And also lowered my opinion about Corlys as it should and really informs me about Adam and Alan.

[01:25:11] And yeah, I mean the scene with Alyson and Raniera was great finally. That was an insight I guess she got from last week. We just wait till next year. Oh sorry. So hopefully they'll learn some of their errors in this and change season three.

[01:25:30] But yeah, so I'm super excited for the podcast. You ladies always do a great job of making me enjoy the episode even more and it like settles warmly in my fan heart. Yeah, so there's a lot going on here and I'm excited for season three.

[01:25:46] Who do you think took Otto? I think it's either Jane Aaron or Craig and Stark, which hopefully we'll get more of. I can't wait to listen to the podcast and thank you so much for doing this. It's been absolutely wonderful. I wouldn't have thought either of them

[01:25:59] but I guess it could be anybody. It just really could. Yeah, neither of them were on my list. But yes, I think it could be literally anybody. Yeah, I mean it's the mystery for next season. All right, Kelly Bridges says, hey ladies, I couldn't let the season end

[01:26:19] without writing to you. First of all, I have loved listening to your coverage of season two so much. I love the dynamic and respect that comes across between the three of you and your guest hosts. I really appreciate all of the different opinions that have been shared.

[01:26:33] One topic that really resonated with me throughout the season is the empathy that has been shown for Alison and other members of the Greens. I feel like the show and the audience could make it so easy to just write them off as the bad guys.

[01:26:47] So it's been refreshing to hear some empathy being thrown their way. I'm not exactly sure why, but Alison is a character that I've related to and empathized with from the beginning, which is probably why I haven't shared much feedback. People can be so mean when they disagree.

[01:27:04] Speaking of Alison, the scene between her and Renera was my favorite of the finale. I was very emotional watching it. They both were amazing in it. My heart broke for them as they realized what it all means and the damage that has and will need to be done.

[01:27:20] I don't want to go on much more, even though I have many more thoughts. But I really did want you all to know how much I've enjoyed listening to you this season. It's a large part of what kept me in it.

[01:27:31] Wish we didn't have to wait so long between seasons. Oh, thank you, Kelly. And I feel so much the same way. I think it was important for them to get the greens and the blacks on more of a level playing field as far as our hearts and emotions.

[01:27:46] And I think they did a good job of that. And I really think that's gonna be a good leap off point for season three. Yes, this is from Matt King. A good season and final episode, but a little disappointing that it was effectively a trailer for season three,

[01:28:05] which is probably two years away. Could have done with seeing battle commence. For those who have read the books on the material available, how many more series do you think they will try to stretch this over as it felt quite drawn out at times?

[01:28:18] Well, now we know the answer to that from Ryan Condal, four total. I see they released a teaser for A Night of the Seven Kingdoms due 2025, approximately said 100 years before Game of Thrones. Should be interesting. Yes, indeed. Looking forward to that. That is exciting.

[01:28:37] That'll be a good in between seasons. Yes. All right, we have a call from Renee Murray. Hi guys, it's Renee calling in about the House of Dragons. First of all, I wanna thank you all for reaching out to me and my messenger when I did send my feedback.

[01:28:59] When I saw that, I was like, oh, like I said, this is my tribe. They really, that was so thoughtful. You guys just do not know that really made my day. I was going through, man, I was going through. And when I saw that pop up,

[01:29:11] I was like, oh, that is so sweet. King Viserys should have raised his kids to have a closer relationship than what they had. Had they had a close relationship, it wouldn't have been no turning on each other. Like, I forgot King Jocerius, he said that the only thing

[01:29:28] that can tear down the House Targaryen is the House Targaryen. I just look at it a little differently. And just like even on The Walking Dead, I think Wendy was talking about, I feel like loyalty is so important to me.

[01:29:39] And I feel like they don't have any loyalty because they're not close knit. And because I was raised like that, I'm loyal to anyone, my family, my friends, everyone. I'm just just my personality. So I just had to get that out. But because I wasn't able to respond

[01:29:54] because everything that happened. But the episodes were, for me, I liked the world building. I liked the people building. I don't have to have battle after battle. Matter of fact, I preferred this. I preferred this over, of course I love the dragons, but I prefer the people building,

[01:30:11] the world building, getting to know one another and to see how people think. Because it is amazing to me that people act like that and people still act like that. You know, like I'm talking about family now. I know a lot of people. I have my best friend.

[01:30:29] She has five sisters and they do not have a relationship. And it starts with the mother because they don't have a relationship with their mom because she is not a mother. She's like Allison. She's not there for her kids.

[01:30:41] So I feel like when you don't have that motherly love or that fatherly love, you end up being resentful and having all kinds of issues. And that's what I see with those kids versus Jace and Joffrey and whatever, Lucerius, whatever the other one that died.

[01:30:56] They, Reneira was very loving to her kids. So her kids are very loving. Even Raina and her kids and her grandkids, they seem to have a very loving relationship. Now Corlys pissed me off. It's like, sir, if you don't sit your ass down somewhere,

[01:31:10] getting on my nerves, trying to make, trying to, and I went Corlys' son. To me the reason why you was acting the way you was acting because you done lost all your other kids. So now you wanna come and you wanna try to talk to me

[01:31:23] and try to build a relationship, which I feel like you can. So let me backtrack. I do feel like that is, you know, you can, if you was not there for your kids as you get older, you could try to build a relationship,

[01:31:35] but you're gonna have to try. You're gonna have to allow them, like I respect Corlys for allowing him to get all of that out because he needed to get all of that out. You walking around, parading around with your other kids.

[01:31:45] Like you said, you got on fur, we hungry, and you sitting there with your other kids and parading them around and you don't even look at us. Like that is sad. That is really sad. And basically this is what it's about.

[01:31:56] It's about the, the haves and the have nots. That's, and that's why Jace was like, demongrose. It's like Jace, why would you say that? But then I do understand Jace because it's like he's saying it from the aspect. I don't feel like he was being racist

[01:32:11] or classes or whatever. He was saying it from the aspect of, because he's a bastard and I can understand him as well. You know, I understand both sides of the coin. Just like I think Veronica was saying with Alison,

[01:32:25] she can be good and she could still be bad. Now for me, Alison is horrible because she's a horrible mother. Like you get no, you get no sympathy or empathy for me when you're a horrible mother because I have a son and I have one child.

[01:32:38] And I mean, I don't understand anyone that can just be horrible like that to their child. Now, now Helena, she seems to care for Helena. She seems to really listen. She got the damn care for Helena cause she's about to get ghost.

[01:32:50] She don't want to run there and like, listen, deuces me and my daughter and my grandbaby is out of here. So she, I think that she has learned from her mistakes. So she does get some empathy. Let me, let me read, let me read that.

[01:33:04] She gets some empathy because she did learn from her mistakes. And Damon over there at Heron Hall, it's like what the hell is going on with Damon? But now I understand that Damon had to go through all of that.

[01:33:14] But again, all of these folks is messed up, man. They dysfunctional. It's because I feel me, I feel, and I know that you can grow up in a household with a good family and still turn out bad. But statistically speaking,

[01:33:29] I feel when you're brought up in a horrible household, a lot of times that's when you turn out bad. Not saying that you can't turn out bad when you come from a good household because you can. But like I said, statistically speaking,

[01:33:43] there's a lot of time when your household was f'ed up, man, and they household is messed up. The Togueras is f'ed up. When I say f'ed up, they are all f'ed up. And it's really sad because they could have been so powerful. Y'all got all these damn dragons

[01:33:56] and y'all are going to lose the throne. It's awful. But again, it's because they're fighting among one another. Y'all should have stayed close. But okay, I done talked too long and too much. Okay, love you guys. Peace and love. I'm going to miss you guys.

[01:34:09] I'm telling you, man, I'm gonna miss y'all. Thank you so much, Renee. It wouldn't be the end of our season without a voicemail from you. All right, we have a comment from Reema Jo who says, So this confirmed Danny is the prince who was promised

[01:34:28] and I'm pissed all over again about Game of Thrones season eight. I feel you, Reema. Why is Otto in a dungeon cell? Tesarion, the blue queen spotted. I agree. I'm excited to see more of Tesarion. That was a beautiful dragon. I'm so proud. Who is Tesarion's rider? Daron.

[01:34:50] So that's Alison's youngest son that's been raised with the high towers. So Tesarion is the baby dragon. He's young. He's young. Yeah. Okay. He's not a baby, he's old enough to ride. Similar to Jace's age probably, right? Yeah. A few years, hatched a few years later.

[01:35:12] Yeah, Vermax is older than Tesarion but Jace and Daron are the same age. In fact, they were milk brothers, meaning they had the same wet nurse. Ah. But evidently, for whatever reason, Daron's egg hatched later. So Tesarion's younger. And Reema goes on to say,

[01:35:34] I'm still processing but left underwhelmed with the finale and the season. We had some good stuff for sure but the pacing could have been better. We should have had 10 episodes. I agree. I think either 10 episodes or condensed some of the time they spent

[01:35:50] on a few of the storylines and moved things a little more quickly. Yep. Maria Lawson says, maybe this was a change from the books. I haven't read so I don't know but I got the feeling a few weeks ago that Alicent was going to come to her senses

[01:36:08] and help Rhaenyra. Now it looks like she is but is she? Is she in cahoots with the master of whispers and knows Aegon won't be there already or did they get him away without her knowledge? Either way, Rhaenyra is going to be pissed when he's not there.

[01:36:25] Finally some payoff for Daemon's fever dreams. I really enjoyed the peek into the future he got and how it put him in the right head space. Aemond is out of control and needs to go. I absolutely thought Aemond was going to push Helena off that balcony

[01:36:41] but she put the fear of the seven gods into him with her premonition talk. My favorite shot of the episode was near the end of Rhaenyra from far away framed among an empty space in the shelves of all the Targaryen histories. Beautiful representation of her tiny part

[01:36:58] of the greater story to be told. So much happened here and I can't wait to hear you all break it down. It's great, thank you, Maria. Emily Rochette says, I really loved the episode as an episode but it felt like some elements were missing as a season finale.

[01:37:14] The scene between Rhaenyra and Alicent totally had me crying. Seems like their roles are now reversed in a way. Is Rhaenyra going to pull a Dany at some point? Seems like she's showing signs of hardening at times. I loved Daemon's vision.

[01:37:31] Might've been a bit fan servicey but I'm here for it. How cool was it to see White Walkers and the Mother of Dragons? I wish they went deeper into that bit of the story. Also glad Daemon came to his senses about time.

[01:37:46] I also wish that we got to see the interaction between Rhaena and the dragon from the Vale, the mutton lover. That's what we should call that dragon, mutton lover. Yeah, I like it. They could have cut some other parts and given us more of that.

[01:37:59] Now that I can actually remember most of the characters names, season two is over. Your crew and guests have been doing such a great job this season. It has been a delight listening to you every week. Thank you so much. You're the best, Drakaris.

[01:38:17] All right and our last phone call is from Megan Dively-Lemon. Hi, this is Megan Leman with feedback for the season two finale of House of the Dragon. I enjoyed this episode better and I think most people are probably gonna say based on the online reactions that I've seen

[01:38:36] to this point. I understand that there's kind of this feeling that the finale should be the biggest and best episode of the season but when and why did we decide that? All the big events don't have to happen in the finale. Wasn't the penultimate episode of the season

[01:38:50] usually the big episode for Game of Thrones and a lot of other series? I think back to the last finale when Jack and Locke were peering down into the hatch or Negan's lineup. Examples, they were probably controversial and frustrating but big cliffhangers

[01:39:02] and looking back there were really thrilling moments that we all remember and kept people talking. I will say, I think they should have brought one or two of the minor plots to a bit of a conclusion, give us a little bit of a thrill.

[01:39:14] For example, they could have had Reyna claim the dragon, not just see it, to give us a little more meat on the bones before this probably two-year wait. Although I wanna say the way her eyes bulged out when she finally spotted Sheepstealer was amazing.

[01:39:28] So this season has been full of big events and in my book I thought the episode was tense, thrilling, it leaves me excited for what's gonna be, I'm sure, a really rapid pace going into season three. So three highlights for me. Rhaenyra's chickens coming home to roost

[01:39:42] with both Alyson and Daemon bending the knee, literally or figuratively, and accepting that she should rightfully be queen. The conversation with Alyson was particularly thrilling and I'm excited for her future character development. She's going the whole Ophelia route and sort of I don't give an F anymore.

[01:39:58] I find her to be a much more interesting character to watch with this new attitude. Second, Daemon's frustrating season-long acid trip at Harrenhal has come to a satisfactory conclusion with him having some visions of the future including, I think, the Night King in Daenerys

[01:40:13] and understanding that the stakes and his tiny role to play in a scheme of things are not what he thought when he was all up in his feelings. Third, everyone marching into their places in the closing montage kind of like setting up a human chessboard.

[01:40:26] That sequence and all of its visuals I thought was just sheer perfection. And three little OMG moments that I wanna highlight. Aegon's sausage cooking on a spit reference? Nuff said, yikes! After carrying two kids, I can sympathize with your pee issues, buddy. Sorry.

[01:40:43] Second, Simon Strong's clapping smiling reaction in the background when Rhaenyra and Daemon reunited and he affirmed her leadership. Simon was so darn happy. It was like his mom and dad just got back together. Third, Tyland, Tyrod, whatever his name is, as a stranger in a strange land asking,

[01:41:00] how many wives do you have? That entire sequence was a little confusing but really, really funny and awesome. Finally, I'll just make a wacky prediction. Daemon might be the Night King somehow? Shortly after showing the Night King in Daemon's vision, we saw Daemon looking very similar in profile.

[01:41:17] I felt like this camera shot was not a coincidence. Maybe they're just teasing us because I know this has been a fan theory and I've also heard, because I did not actually watch the full run of Game of Thrones, I need to correct that. I came in later.

[01:41:29] I've heard that there was canon in that show that disproves this theory. However, I'm gonna stand to this wack crackpot theory. Even if they're not planning to do it, maybe they can listen to the fans and somehow wreck on it, I don't know.

[01:41:42] Well, thanks for all your coverage this season and I will look forward to when it comes back. I know it's gonna be a while. Bye. Huh. Yeah, they showed us in Game of Thrones the man that became the Night King, correct? Yes, and it was not Daemon.

[01:42:01] So, I don't think- And it was thousands of years or hundreds of years ago. Now, the Night King that they flashed in Daemon's vision looks different than the Night King from Game of Thrones. He does. So there is that. Yep. There is that.

[01:42:23] I don't know if it means anything or if the show just thought we wouldn't notice. I don't know. I did think it was really funny that they call Tyland everything except his actual name. Every possible name that starts with a T. I did think that was funny.

[01:42:40] It was. All right, so join us after the episode for Book Talk with Archmeister Renny and Acolyte Ronny. They are going to talk about differences up to this far with this episode only in the book and then they're gonna give us some book spoilers.

[01:42:59] And I just wanna also thank everybody who's helped out this season. Thank you to Veronica and Renny. It's really been a great experience with the both of you and we had a lot of fun, so really thank you. And we had our guest hosts this season,

[01:43:15] which were Cassie, Sam, Kristen and Rema. We also had a lot of people helping us do the lives earlier in this season. That was Alex, Daphne, Sam and Alma. So just really thank you to everybody for writing in and calling in and giving us your feedback.

[01:43:34] It's really great to have the interaction with everybody. Yeah, thank you everybody who filled in and wrote in. Like Wendy said, this has been so fun. And Wendy, thank you for everything you've done. It's been a real blast and you're the,

[01:43:48] I think the person making all the wheels turn. So thank you. Yeah, it's been fun. You can find Drag and Cast and a bunch of other great podcasts at podcastica.com. I know I said last week I was sort of behind.

[01:44:03] So one of the things I caught up on this week was the rewatch of episode, season one, episode one of The Walking Dead as done by. Welcome to the apocalypse. Welcome to the apocalypse. And you know, I laughed out loud like throughout

[01:44:22] almost that whole episode, like it was very, very fun. A really, a really cute crossover and welcome to the apocalypse has been a really great. I feel like almost like palette cleanser for me with each episode that comes out. It's just pure fun. It's really great.

[01:44:40] And they do such a really, a real good job with it. And this was just a little cherry on top to their season. So go check it out. I find myself saving up those episodes. Like I don't want to watch them because I'm saving them.

[01:44:56] But I will definitely get caught up now that I have some time. Yeah, nice. Yes, I've been behind on the rewatch as well. But now that House of the Dragon is over, I will get caught back up again. Just a couple of episodes behind at this point.

[01:45:11] So should be there soon. All right, that's our show. Thanks for listening everyone. Until next time two years from now, I'm Renny. Hopefully I will still be Veronica and I will be Wendy. Let's do one last recaris. Recaris. All right, here we are in Book Talk.

[01:45:49] In this section, we will not have spoilers for future events, but we'll talk about the way things are different in the book from the show. So we're way, way off book at this point. We've diverged a lot. I have lots for spoilers for things that they foreshadowed

[01:46:13] but I only really have one thing because everything else was different. So I'm so curious to hear what you have. Yeah, so at this point in the books, Kristen Cole has not yet marched to Heron Hall and there is of course no meeting between Renira and Allison.

[01:46:38] And Allison is still very much a part of the Green Council. She has not been kicked off of that. So those are some of the major differences. It is not Tyland Lannister who negotiates with the triarchy. It was Otto who did that before Aigon fired him his hand.

[01:47:03] And the book just says, Otto quote, sent word to the Magisters promising exclusive trading rights at King's Landing. And to add savor to the stew, he also promised to see the step zones though in truth the Iron Throne had never claimed those aisles end quote.

[01:47:22] So that whole thing in Tyrosh is an invention of the show. And Shirako Lohar has been combined with another character, Racalio Rendoon who appears later, like so much later that I think he comes in beyond the point that the show is ever gonna get to.

[01:47:48] So there is a character named Shirako Lohar. He's a Lysini Admiral who commands the fleet at the Battle of the Gullet which is the battle that we're heading towards obviously the two navies coming together. And we hear nothing about him

[01:48:08] except the tactics that he uses in this sea battle. And we hear that when he returned to the triarchy he was accused of sending the Mirish and Tairashi fleets and holding back his own fleets and he's later murdered but that murder is actually by arrival

[01:48:27] for the favor of a courtesan but it's taken for a political killing and ultimately leads to a war among the three cities that ends the triarchy. That's all we know about Shirako Lohar, that's it. On the other hand, Racalio Rendoon who is a Tairashi

[01:48:49] who fought against Daemon in the Stepstones is described as one of the most curious and flamboyant rogues in the annals of history. He's six foot six, he speaks a dozen dialects of Valyrian suggesting that he was high born but he was infamously foul-mouthed suggesting he was a commoner.

[01:49:11] He dyed his hair and beard purple sometimes streaked with orange, dying your hair purple or blue or something in the Tairashi fashion. He was a glutton and a drunkard. He honored all gods of all religions. He hated slavery and he would buy any slave girl

[01:49:27] that caught his eye, kiss her and set her free. He had a dozen wives and would sometimes dress in women's clothes. He quote was mad yet his men loved him, fought for him, died for him end quote and they made him king of the Stepstones

[01:49:43] although he was known as Queen Racalio. Interesting. And then I have more to say about Racalio Rendoon in the spoiler section but that's all we can say in this section. So Eamon does not burn sharp point in the book. Also Eamon remains loyal to Aegon.

[01:50:08] He takes the title Prince Regent and Protector of the Realm but he never makes any sort of threat to Usurp. So that's very different in the book. But he hasn't really officially done that in the show, right? I thought he did.

[01:50:25] I thought he did take the title Protector of the Realm. I thought he was still calling himself just like Prince Regent. Well, they refer to him as Prince Regent. Yeah and I thought that I do think Aegon is life is in danger from Eamon

[01:50:49] but I feel like even, I feel like this whole storyline could still be consistent with the book because of the way his, like there's enough holes in the book that this story could still fit because officially Eamon hasn't actually completely tried to say he's king, right? Right.

[01:51:11] Well, they've taken the characters of Eamon and Daemon and by which I mean their personalities, who they are and they've pushed their untrustworthiness in the show much more than it is in the books, which I think is interesting and it's an interesting parallel between Eamon and Daemon.

[01:51:31] So I don't mind that at all but it's done differently in the show. And it's telling that in the show and I don't know how much of it is intentional versus just more interesting but the men are much worse in the show than they're described in the histories

[01:51:50] and the women are actually much better because you know, Alison I think was, as I think was quoted this episode, how did she put it that you'll be, you'll go down in history as a cold queen grasping for power and then defeated.

[01:52:05] And that is kind of how she is in the history, like much more despicable, like there's not these redeeming moments which wouldn't have been recorded in the history because nobody would have known she snuck to go talk to Rhaenyra. That's right.

[01:52:17] But Rhaenyra also in the books was depicted as not very attractive after she had birthed children and as withdrawn and not present. And in this show, we've still seen that there've been times where she has been withdrawn and not present

[01:52:33] in a way that could still be consistent with the histories but the histories of men were like, eh, she's just mourning. And in the show, the reality is she's making money moves, like going to try to talk for peace with Alison or going, she was doing things,

[01:52:48] coming up with the idea of the seeds with Mithra. Like I'm enjoying, I'm continuing to enjoy that sort of story writing style with the history and then comparing it with the show and deciding what can actually still be consistent with what would have happened in the histories.

[01:53:09] Yeah, very much so. Yeah. Aegon doesn't leave King's Landing quite this soon in the book, but he does leave and it is Lerys who takes him out and Lerys takes him through some secret passage of Maegor the Cruel, which only he had knowledge of. So that's consistent. Yeah.

[01:53:35] Yeah, we've mentioned before that Rhaena is substituting for the character Nettles in the book who clearly is not gonna exist in the show, although I would love it if next season we see that Sheepstealer is growling at Rhaena because Nettles is standing on the other side of him.

[01:53:51] Ooh. Nettles has already claimed him, but alas, I don't think that's going to be the case. I wrote in my notes cause I know we had talked before about sort of the idea of in the histories, there being a storyline of potentially Sheepstealer

[01:54:12] and a woman who's the witch living in those woods. And I just started laughing and I was like, well, maybe Rhaena never actually claimed Sheepstealer and she just forever is wandering the veil looking and that's what this is gonna be. So I don't really think that,

[01:54:28] but I was just getting so annoyed with the storyline this episode that gave me a chuckle to think maybe she's just forever wandering and looking for a dragon and never comes back and never claims it. I like that. I also liked the,

[01:54:48] even though I don't like Ulf's behavior, I really liked that dinner among the new dragon riders, which fills in the relationship between Rhaenyra and the new writers and talks about their need to learn how to control the dragons. All of that makes sense

[01:55:02] because all that is just silent in the book. They just claim the dragons and we're onto the next thing. So I liked that building that out. Yeah, for sure. So in this episode, Corlys renames his ship the Sea Snake, which gave him his nickname.

[01:55:23] He renames it the Queen Who Never Was. And that's kind of an echo. In the book, one of Alan's ships, later in Alan's career, on which he undertakes one of his voyages is called the Queen Rhaenys. So I think that probably was part of the idea

[01:55:45] of how they came up with the idea of naming, Corlys renaming his ship. Nice, I liked that. Alfred Broom turns traitor much earlier in the show than he does in the books, but he's still a traitor. So that totally was consistent with the book. Helena flying Dreamfire

[01:56:07] is never a question in the book because after Jaehaerys is killed, she's basically catatonic from that point. She never takes an active role in anything, including raising her remaining children. They're given over to Alyson to raise. So it makes sense to me

[01:56:25] that since she's not dysfunctional in the show, since she's behaving, she's active and so forth, that the question of why she's not gonna fly Dreamfire had to be addressed. So I thought that was a good way to take that on. Yeah, and made sense.

[01:56:49] It would be ridiculous if Aemond wasn't trying to get her to do it, right? When they're up against this many dragons on the other side. So I was glad they did that head on. And then finally, Rhaenyra and Adam do not fly to Harrenhal. Right.

[01:57:07] Which I'm fine with. But I love that flying scene. I love them flying around the corner and coming and seeing Harrenhal and Cyrax landing and Caraxes picking up his head and hollering at the other dragons. Remember, Seasmoke and Caraxes know each other well

[01:57:27] because they fought together in the Stepstones. Right. Yeah. And I mean, Caraxes and Cyrax, like Rhaenyra and Daemon used, when they were younger, used to fly together quite a bit. Used to fly together all the time. That's right. Yeah. So even though it doesn't happen in the books,

[01:57:49] I thought it was a good addition to have it happen that way. And I was thinking, if I was looking around that room full of people and I needed to pick one of them to fly to Harrenhal with me, Adam would totally be my choice as well. Absolutely.

[01:58:03] I wouldn't pick Jason Baila because I wouldn't want to put them in danger. And I sure wouldn't pick Ulf because he's a jackass. And it would have definitely been between Adam and Hugh, but Adam is the one who immediately got down on his knees

[01:58:16] and said, I swear, Feildy. So he'd be my pick too. Yeah. And he seemed, he was the one at the table too that seemed ready to do what needed to be done to support the cause. Yeah. So yeah. Yeah. I just wanted one other note. Yeah.

[01:58:31] It's just that Agen very clearly says his dragon is dead. So I was going to talk about that in the spoiler section. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Anything else before we move on to spoiler section? The only other things, yeah, that I've got are spoilers. So let's go. Okay.

[01:58:55] All right everybody. That was it for the first part of Book Talk. We're now moving into the spoiler section where we're going to talk about everything. So if you don't wanna know, bye-bye. Here is your warning. All right. Yes. So he says Sunfire is dead.

[01:59:34] If Sunfire is dead, how is Reneera gonna die? So I was rereading that part of the book today and maybe everyone just thinks Sunfire is dead because they are sort of surprised to find Sunfire in as good a shape.

[01:59:52] Like they know he's a, it's a he or she. Sunfire is a he. Okay. They know Sunfire is alive in the book but they think much closer to dead than Sunfire ends up being. And so maybe this is just, he thinks Sunfire is dead

[02:00:08] and we're gonna find out as a surprise that indeed. And I would believe that if it was anybody but Aegon saying it, but shouldn't a Dragon Rider know if the dragon's dead? So yeah, I'm just a little worried about that.

[02:00:28] But there's still plenty of room for Sunfire to reemerge and say, oh, not quite dead yet. Yeah. Otherwise I don't, I can't think of another way they accomplish that. No, Sunfire has to be alive. So I think they're just faking us out

[02:00:49] to make us not wonder about what's going on with Sunfire. And then Sunfire will come back and say, surprise, Sunfire is back. I think that'll be a good surprise. Okay. Talk about the show spoiling itself. I can't believe it. Helena straight up tells Aemond

[02:01:07] what's gonna happen to him and tells him that Aegon's gonna be king again which he is gonna be. Well, we also see Daemon's demise as well. Like there were just a lot of things. Yes, Alice has told Daemon and we see him die in his vision.

[02:01:27] Although that's so quick that I'm sure a lot of people won't recognize what's really happening there. But yeah, anybody thinking about it could put it together because they've, Daemon's been told he'll die at Harrenhal and Aemond has been told that he's gonna die at the God's eye.

[02:01:49] So you could figure out that one of them kills the other or they kill each other. Yeah, I was very surprised. Yes. And I guess there's always the fact that you can think maybe that is all gonna happen but do you believe that the visions are 100% accurate

[02:02:16] and I don't know, I feel like even when I know something is gonna happen like we've read the books, I know Rhaenys was gonna die. There's still this glimmer of hope in me that like, oh, someone's gonna change and she's gonna be okay

[02:02:28] even though I know that's delusional. And so I guess there can still be excitement. There are many things that can change but there are some things that I think are too iconic, too important that they cannot change. Like they couldn't have changed Eryk and Arak, right?

[02:02:44] That fight had to happen because that's talked about in the main Song of Isis and Fire books, right? And Daemon and Aemond, that's so central to the whole historical mythology that it has to happen. And it's too perfect, right? It is too perfect. It's too perfect.

[02:03:07] I mean, that is what we want as fans like as much as we don't wanna see our favorite characters. Oh my, my, my, what an amazing visual that's gonna be. It's going to be, yeah. So good. It's gonna be epic. Yeah. So Alfred Broom,

[02:03:26] I thought it was interesting that they make him a traitor in this episode because he does become a traitor later. So- I don't remember, it remind me sometimes with the lesser lords I don't know this the same way you do it. Well, he's not actually even a lord.

[02:03:40] He's the most senior knight in the garrison at Dragonstone. And when Rhaenyra goes to King's Landing, he's part of the force that's left behind and he wanted to be named Castellan, but quote, his sullen disposition and sour manner inspired neither affection nor trust, end quote.

[02:04:03] So he was passed over for somebody else. And so he's pissed about that. So when Rhaenyra comes back and Aegon's already there, he's the one who helped Aegon figure out or which of the guards could be turned and how to take over the castle.

[02:04:24] And he leads Rhaenyra into the trap. And he's the one who, he leads Rhaenyra up to Sunfire and Sunfire ignores her. And then he takes his dagger and cuts her on the chest so that the blood will draw a Sunfire's attention.

[02:04:44] And he's standing so close that as he leaps away, his cloak catches fire. And then he also argues for killing Aegon the Younger as well, but Aegon the second disagrees because he wants Aegon the Younger for a hostage instead. So do you think that will still happen

[02:05:04] that that will still be this character? I think it very well could be, but Alfred Broom is, yeah, he's a bad dude. So setting him up in this episode as already being a traitor to Rhaenyra made sense. Yeah. Then you already mentioned that Rhaenyra tells Alicent

[02:05:26] that history will paint Alicent a villain and Alicent says, let them think what they must. And that is exactly how history paints are. And Rhaenyra too, they both come off very bad in the book. And I think you had just had a great insight

[02:05:43] which is the show is making the women better and the men worse, which is kind of a corrective to the patriarchal nature of the history in Fire and Blood. Yeah. I'm very curious to see what plays out with the taking of King's Landing

[02:06:03] because in the book it is said that Alicent is the one who closes the gates and puts up that last defense against Rhaenyra's forces. And so here we're seeing things set up. If I had to guess what I think is going to happen

[02:06:23] is that Alicent is going to intend to do what she said but other things are going to get in her way. She won't be able to open the gates and then Rhaenyra is going to get in and see that Aegon has escaped and whether or not Alicent,

[02:06:40] she'll blame Alicent. She's going to blame Alicent. How would you not think that she knew after the discussion that they had? And so I think even though Alicent has in this, iteration of things sort of, Yeah. I think you're completely right. I think we're going to see things

[02:07:02] that have been somewhat patched. I don't think there's repair but there are patches to things that have happened. I think those patches are just gonna get ripped right back off. Yes they are. For their relationship. But there's gonna be a great opportunity

[02:07:17] for a lot more interaction between the two of them because Rhaenyra will be in the city and Alicent will be there. So they can have lots more heartrending conversations. Yeah in the book, it's the Gold Cloaks who are still loyal to Daemon who open the city gates.

[02:07:36] Alicent sees to the defense of the city because Aemond is gone. He's marched off to Harrenhal. Well not marched, he's flown off to Harrenhal. And Aegon is still high on Milk of the Poppy at that point. And her brother Gwain isn't out with Cristin Cole.

[02:07:54] He's the second in command of the Gold Cloaks in the city. And he gets killed by Luthor Largent, the commander of the Gold Cloaks because Gwain calls Luthor a Turncloak and Luthor says, Daemon gave us these cloaks and they're gold no matter how you turn them.

[02:08:13] Which is a great line. Yes. Yeah. So yeah, that's a, it'll be interesting to see how they manage all of that. Yeah. And then finally, more about Ricalio Rindoon. So way later, long beyond where I think they're gonna end the show, Al and Velaryon encounters Ricalio Rindoon.

[02:08:41] And it's during the reign of Aegon III. And Ricalio is queen of the Stepstones. And it's unclear whether Alan is his guest or his prisoner. He insists that Alan wrestle with him in a mud pit. So they took that right out of the book.

[02:09:02] He sends three of his wives to Alan and says, give them sons. I want sons as brave and strong as you. So that came right out of the book. Ultimately Ricalio lets Alan go, but he wants three things. He wants three ships.

[02:09:18] He wants an alliance signed in blood and he wants a kiss. So Alan gives him three ships. He signs the alliance in ink rather than blood, but he signs it. And he promises that his wife, Bela will give Ricalio a kiss should Ricalio ever come to Driftmark.

[02:09:40] This is a question I had for you. Do you wonder if they might switch a bit? Is there room for them to switch Alan and Adam? I just have a really hard time seeing Alan ending up with Bela, but I could see Adam. But did that work?

[02:09:59] I've heard people object to the supposed age difference between this version of Alan and Bela. And I looked up the actors and Abu Bakr Saleem is actually only four years older. Than the actor who plays Bela. To me it's not even, it's not the age, it's the personality.

[02:10:18] Like Bela is fire and blood and I don't know, Alan seems more reserved. I don't know. I just feel something about the characters personalities. In personality Adam and Bela would be a better match, especially since they're both Dragon Riders, but that's not gonna happen.

[02:10:41] You don't think, I just can't remember the end of Adam's story. Oh, Adam's. Adam after Ulf and Hugh defect, then Rainier is convinced that all bastards are untrustworthy, which is totally ironic, but she's convinced that all bastards are untrustworthy. So she orders Adam arrested, but Corlys warns him.

[02:11:17] He's in King's Landing at that point. Corlys warns him and he goes to the Dragonpit and flies away. But to prove his loyalty, he attacks Hugh and Ulf and he gets killed. Okay. I thought he survived that. No, Adam does not survive.

[02:11:35] And Alan puts a memorial to him on, Dragonstone or Driftmark? I don't remember. Puts up a memorial to him and it just has one word on it, loyal. Yeah. Oh, everyone's gonna die. I hate it. Yeah, that is one of the problems,

[02:11:57] one of the structural problems with this book to adapt it to TV is that everyone who you get invested in, every single one of them is gonna die. Oh, I hate it. I knew it was coming and I still hate it.

[02:12:18] Yeah, I mean, if they do the battle of the gullet in episode one or two, bye-bye, Jace. Yeah, I think that will be episode one or two for sure. Yeah, absolutely so. There's something in Ulf and Hugh's reaction this week further sort of cemented for me

[02:12:37] that I think rather than the book version where we get them sort of celebrating all the carnage that they helped ensue, I think we're going to see them not reveling in that, but angry that they've been manipulated into the position where they did all that.

[02:12:58] And I think that is what's going to lead to them. I think that's the only way with the way they have set Hugh's character up for that to be consistent. And honestly, Ulf even did not seem thrilled with as uncouth as Ulf is.

[02:13:12] He did not seem like he wanted to go do anything besides throw down Eamon, right? He was not thrilled about burning up innocent people. And so I think that is going to be what leads to their rebellion.

[02:13:26] And I like that better than them being just the bad guys. And once again, it would make sense with the histories that this could still be the true version of things because of course they're bastard small folk. They can't possibly be honorable men. So I don't know.

[02:13:46] I'm enjoying these changes. I think it's fun. Well, Hugh's wife has kept talking about going to her brother in Tumulton. Oops. I think she may do that and not tell Hugh she's gone and get killed in the first battle of Tumulton.

[02:14:04] Yeah, and that was one of the things I had suspected might tip him over the edge as well as his family and all he has left is his wife is hurt. Man, yeah. You're right. All right, that's all I've got. Me too.

[02:14:25] So my guess now is we start season three with the Battle of the Gullet. Second episode is Rhaenyra takes King's Landing and then they go off book and wander and do things for the rest of the season. And I don't think that Daemon and Aemon die

[02:14:42] until episode two, season four. I agree. I think they're gonna put that off because they want to keep those two just as long as they can. Do you think, I think we lose Christian Cole in season three though. Do you think?

[02:14:56] Yeah, I think we lose him in season three. Yep, absolutely. I am so excited to find out what in the world is going on with Otto. I know. Is there any chance that he's in King's Landing in a cell? Possibly. Because in the book,

[02:15:12] when she takes over King's Landing, Otto walks out with Alicent when Rhaenyra comes. And so I also was like, could Alicent have put him there to protect him? Could Larys have put him there to keep him out of the way? I don't know.

[02:15:30] It could just literally be anything, but I'm very curious. And then I think where season four ends is with the death of Aegon II and the crowning of Aegon III. And they don't go any further than that because there's a lot of rigmarole about the Regency

[02:15:45] until Aegon III is 16. And then Viserys coming back and his lysine wife and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I just don't think all that stuff is very interesting actually compared to the material we've done so far. I think we'll wrap up.

[02:16:01] We'll get to know what becomes of Bela and Rhaena. I think we'll get little glimpses of future things, but I agree. I don't think they'll try to... It's already such a dense character field show. Oh my God, Ryan Condal spoiled the whole thing

[02:16:20] very unthinkingly, I think he said. After all Daenerys is the descendant of Daemon and Rhaenyra. And every single Targaryen monarch, starting with Aegon III, they're all descendants of either Aegon or Viserys. And so they're all descendants of Daemon and Rhaenyra. And in order to know that,

[02:16:54] you know the Blacks win. Yeah, or at least, yeah. The Blacks win as soon as Aegon III becomes king. I don't wanna wait two more years. Two years, I know. It's a big bummer. At least we get a little show in between, but...

[02:17:12] Yes, I'm really looking forward to A Nine of the Seven Kingdoms. I think that is really easily adaptable material. Super looking forward to the second season, which is where we'll meet a young blood raven. I do not know the blood raven story.

[02:17:31] I saw it, but I don't know. I have gotten through the first half of the story of Egg and Dunk, but I didn't finish it yet. So I need to finish that before the show comes out. But I loved what I listened to. I just hadn't finished it.

[02:17:50] Yeah. All right. All right. Well, it has been a pleasure. Yeah, see in two years. It has been a pleasure doing Book Talk with you, Veronica. I really enjoyed it. Thanks. It was fun to get to be the dummy who asks you all the questions

[02:18:07] and doesn't know all the histories. You have not been the dummy at all. You have come up with some really good insights and observations. Yeah. Well, it's just, yeah. I'm in the presence of giants, so. Thanks for letting me tag along. All right.

[02:18:24] And thanks to all the listeners. Oh, thank you for declaring your fealty. Just like Adam Valerian. Yeah. Yes. I don't have a dragon, but if I get one, I'll ride into battle for you ready. Perfect. All right.

[02:18:40] And I promise I will not have you kill civilians with it. Thank you. Appreciate it.