5: "King of the Narrow Sea" (S1E4)

[00:00:00] Hey everybody, I'm Reema and I'm Wendy and this is Dragon Cast, a podcast dedicated to House of the Dragon. This week we are covering season 1 episode 4 King of the Narrow Sea. Wendy thank you so much for coming back this week and helping us out here on Dragon Cast.

[00:00:34] My pleasure, I was super excited. Reema asked me and I was like I have 500,000 things to do this week but hell yes! I love that, I knew that if I had reached out that no matter what you had going on you would have the time.

[00:00:50] So thank you just for everyone's information. My presentation, Kristen is under the weather this week and was unable to join so Wendy has graciously stepped in so we can have our show. So I'm not just sitting here and you don't have to listen to just me.

[00:01:08] Reema arguing with herself. You know what? That's exactly what would happen. Nobody wants that. So yeah, happy that you're here. This was a really great in my opinion episode and before we jump into it I'll give just a brief synopsis and this comes from HBO.

[00:01:31] And so we'll kind of sum up what we're going to talk about this week. They say after Reena cuts short her tour of Westeros, Damon introduces the princess to the street of silk after dark. That's quite brief. It's very brief.

[00:01:49] It gives a nice little, I like the after dark part. It's kind of gives you a little taste of the spicy, spicy parts of this episode. Westeros after dark. That would have been a great name for the podcast or at least for this episode anyway.

[00:02:11] That's really good. So clever. Everyone's so, so good at names and I suck at that. So Wendy, what are your just your general thoughts? How did you like this episode this week? I loved it. I really loved it. I thought that it really advanced all the character arcs.

[00:02:32] I feel like in some ways I wish it would slow down because I feel like it's speeding so quickly and I don't want to miss anything. But I really loved it. I'm totally hooked on this show.

[00:02:47] I mean, I've heard a couple of criticism that it's too slow and things like that and I just don't feel like that at all. I'm totally in. Fantastic. And I love that perspective because you're only familiar with the show. You're not familiar with the book material. Right.

[00:03:06] Okay, so I've heard some conflicting things from folks and I think it might depend on if you're familiar with the book stuff or not. I can see where some might say, oh it's moving too fast and I don't understand all the book stuff.

[00:03:21] And so I don't really understand all the layers and everything that's going on. And some folks I know have said, oh, it's too slow.

[00:03:27] So I like that perspective that you have as just coming from the show perspective that you're enjoying it and you seem to keep up with everything that's going on. Yeah, I mean, I'm totally geeking out on it.

[00:03:43] So I am, you know, listening to podcasts on it and I've been watching the little snippets that HBO puts at the end of each episode for an insider view of the episode and geeking out about it with all my friends. Yes.

[00:04:04] I feel like I probably am getting some book stuff. I'm trying to stay pure, but it's, you know, I'm just corruptible. So I think, yeah, I'm really liking it. Oh good. And I'm almost glad that I'm not a book reader because I know sometimes that can be hard.

[00:04:24] And I know a lot of people with the Game of Thrones franchise were just so much infighting about well that wasn't in the book or it was different in the book. And I think it's almost better to watch the show first and then read the book.

[00:04:40] Because I think it just gets a little difficult to accept what you have this vision in your head. And let's face it, books have lots more time and material to develop things than a television show does.

[00:04:56] So it's probably never going to be as in depth or as artistically explained than in a very short 60 minutes or 50 minutes. Yep. That's a very true point. Yeah, I love talking with you about it just getting your thoughts without having that general knowledge of the books.

[00:05:23] And from this side it's hard to not talk about it. Like you just start talking and then you start wanting to just blurt out differences or something. So it's challenging. That has to be hard. It is a little hard.

[00:05:35] It's difficult for me because it wasn't that way when we were talking about Game of Thrones. I've been familiar with all of the books. I think I just read the first one. So I was like, well this is all that I know.

[00:05:47] So I'm excited that you really liked this week's episode. I also liked it. I thought it was a magnificent episode. I thought it was so well done considering the content in the episode.

[00:06:00] And I really, I mean I think you can tell and for anyone that didn't know, this episode was directed by a female director. And I think that was important because of our spicy scenes. As I mentioned that we got, I think it was handled very well.

[00:06:16] And the way that it was handled because the episode follows Renea's perspective almost entirely. As she was directed by Claire Kilner. Sorry, I don't have my glasses on. Sorry, Claire Kilner was the director for this episode.

[00:06:36] And I thought it was an absolutely refreshing viewpoint and authentic view of what it's like to be a teen girl sneaking out. And that's just a very brief summary, I'm sure of what we're going to talk about. Did you watch the after the episode? I did.

[00:06:57] Yeah, she talked about how she really tried to unthink all the sex scenes that she had seen because they're all from a man's perspective. Because that's just Hollywood is from a man's perspective and tried to think about it from a woman's perspective.

[00:07:14] And I think she did a really good job with that. I don't know about anybody else but this woman thought it was pretty hot. This woman on the end of this mic thought it was very hot and I was not disappointed. Yeah.

[00:07:27] At all by the end of this episode for a lot of different reasons that I'm sure we'll talk about. But you know there's a lot of differing opinions about these scenes, either by different characters or some scenes in particular or exactly maybe power dynamics.

[00:07:46] And I do want to be respectful of that but in everyone's opinion is valid. I'm simply going to talk about my opinion. You can express your opinion and your feelings on it.

[00:07:56] But I'm sure we're going to have some others that feel a little bit differently about what we saw in this episode. So without further ado, because I know we've got so much to talk about and because we're both pretty excited to jump into it.

[00:08:13] Wendy please since you're the guest, what is your first point? My first point is the war for Ranae's love. Everybody seems to want something from her and I can't imagine how that feels.

[00:08:30] I mean she's pretty good at giving us a good idea of that she wants nothing to do with this whole finding a suitor. She's just going through the motions. So her would-be suitors are lined up to vie for her affections and this was at Storm's End I believe.

[00:08:51] Is that correct? You are correct. Yes. Okay. My husband thought it was Dragonstone but I had heard somewhere else somebody said Storm's End. And I think that's the first time we've ever seen Storm's End.

[00:09:04] I'm pretty sure that this is the first time in Game of Thrones and here in House of the Dragon. Yeah, we've heard about it a lot. And so all these guys are lined up mostly old men, a few boys.

[00:09:18] She hates the whole process of them fighting to win her affections because it isn't really her affections that they want. They're trying to get her blood, her crown, her titles, what she can bring to them with her name and her lineage.

[00:09:39] And so she goes from an old man who's older than her father to a little boy that comes into the castle and she's pretty outspoken about how she feels about all this.

[00:09:56] To the point where she might be coming off arrogant and condescending and belittling to, you know, she's a guest even though she's the heir. She's a guest at this place. Yes.

[00:10:13] And honestly, you know, maybe regardless of her feelings, I feel like there's still a little bit of expectations of behaving like a princess. Like at least being respectful or having a respectable tone.

[00:10:28] Like, oh my gosh, I really do not want to be here but yet being respectful of the people that have come to present themselves. No matter how ridiculous she might feel that they would be a suitors.

[00:10:40] And throughout the episode, and we can go into it more in depth. I'm sure you have notes on it as well. But we kind of see, you know, all these men fighting for Rhaenara's affections and Rhaenara trying to find out what she really wants.

[00:10:59] And for a long time, it seems like what she really wants is nothing. She wants no parts of marriage and childbirth. Her mother died from having a child and it seems like that has really scarred Rhaenara.

[00:11:17] She brings that up time and time again that she kind of has this opinion that that is a woman's worth, is that your job is to, you know, you have that royal womb and you're supposed to sire heirs from that. And her mother died attempting to do that.

[00:11:40] And I think that has really made an impact on her, how she feels about sex, how she feels about men, how she feels about marriage. And so this episode seems to be all about that because we see her with Damon and we see her with Kristen

[00:11:56] and we just see her kind of struggling to find her place in all of that. And I loved it. This little actress is such a powerhouse. She is amazing. 100% agree. Millie Alcock is doing a really great job. Is she Australian? You know, I don't know.

[00:12:20] I heard her in an interview and she sounds like, at first I thought, oh my gosh, she's American. But then I thought I detected at least a hint of Australian or something but her accent is incredible.

[00:12:33] Like her voice work is amazing in the series so she's just doing a great job. I'm mesmerized by her and I, you know, don't want her to ever not be on the show. Yeah, she's doing a fantastic job with the content and her acting abilities.

[00:12:49] How she's able to say so much without words, like just the look on her face. Like the scene a couple episodes ago when her father announced that he was going to marry Allison.

[00:13:01] You know, just that look of, you know, on her face like betrayed by her father, betrayed by her best friend. Same time all in one fell swoop. So she's, and that's just one example of many where she's really demonstrating her acting chops. So she's fantastic.

[00:13:21] And I agree with everything that you just said. You know, obviously, you knew when her mother passed it was obviously going to have an impact on her. She seemed to be pretty close with her mom and that's devastating to any young girl to lose her mother

[00:13:35] and to for it to be such a tragic end. You know, definitely had an impact on her and she does talk a little bit more about it. You know, she's like, this is all that I'm worth to be trapped in some marriage and squeeze out airs.

[00:13:55] I think she put it. And you know, her mom had that conversation with her to a degree in that first episode before she died.

[00:14:03] You know, she's like, because there was a tournament coming up and you know, men are out there practicing, you know, for the for the jousts and things like that. And she's like, you know, our battlefield is here in the birthing room.

[00:14:17] And you know, this is what what we're to do. This is our duty. You know, the men fight and have war and this is our war. And she didn't seem interested in it then either like that was like, I'm just not that's not what I want.

[00:14:31] I don't care about getting married, but you know, she she is the heir to the throne. And regardless, you know, she does have to ensure like her father keeps pushing her her succession.

[00:14:41] You know, she she has to have airs to be able to continue her line and she's definitely like she wants to be the heir. But she doesn't want to have to fulfill, you know, her her obligations. You know, you can't just not you can't not do that.

[00:14:59] And at least in this world, you know, I definitely worry. Yeah, she's worrying against the traditions. Just like she says multiple times that if I was a man, I could father 15 bastards and nobody would blink twice. You know, if I was a man, I could do this.

[00:15:17] But because I'm a woman, it's completely different. Yeah. And I think she was really close to her mother and she watched her mother suffer through miscarriages and stillbirths and children who died young.

[00:15:31] So she probably had a really up close experience with all of that and it has changed her ideas about things. Very much. Yeah. And and not just having having to be told what to do.

[00:15:49] She she definitely has a rebellious spirit and I definitely identify with Renea in so so many ways, but definitely that one. Just this, you know, you have to marry, you have to have children. It's almost like she doesn't get a choice in it at all.

[00:16:05] And she doesn't as long as she wants to be heir, honestly. But also, I think there's that fear. I think she is fearful of being pregnant and, you know, possibly, you know, it going a tragic way like it did with her mother.

[00:16:22] You know, she seems to talk about that too, that she's fearful of that but also just not having the choices. Agreed. Really good point. All right. What's your next point? Oh, goodness. Where to start? I'm just going to start right with the chaos of Damon Targaryen. You know,

[00:16:49] Yes. Look, this is just don't don't judge me all. This is strictly from an entertainment perspective. But you know, every week, I certainly do look forward to seeing what crimes he's going to get into and how I can support all of them. He's very interesting. He's never boring.

[00:17:11] And the two of them just crackle. Wow. Yeah, it's absolutely sizzling for sure. But you know, look, I don't want to fix Damon. You know, I don't want to fix him but I'm ready to join in his chaos. I am here for Damon Targaryen.

[00:17:30] You know, this dude was welcome back into the fold. You know, welcome back by the king and all the onlookers were like, oh yeah, isn't this sweet nice little reunion. And then within the hour exiled again. Right. Dude.

[00:17:49] When he and you know when he walks into the throne room and he throws that hammer and says add it to the chair. Oh my gosh. What a moment. I can't even begin to tell you.

[00:18:02] And for anyone who doesn't know just a little piece of history, the iron throne was forged by Aegon the Conqueror.

[00:18:13] The throne was made by they say now this is not, you know, truth I don't believe but they say forged by 1000 swords that were surrendered to Aegon for fealty basically all the house is swearing to. Aegon and bent the knee.

[00:18:33] Those swords were surrendered and that's what the iron throne is made of so it's funny that he's like throwing it and saying add it to the chair. I like the new representation of that in this show as opposed to Game of Thrones because it feels bigger somehow. Yes.

[00:18:54] Yeah.

[00:18:55] If you if you ever look into the books and the illustrations of the original iron or what the iron throne was envisioned to be it looks a lot similar in this and I hope that's not too spoilers is more history prior to not really like forward book spoilers but if you look at some of the illustrations of what they imagined it to be the show is

[00:19:19] depicting a more accurate picture than what we see in in Game of Thrones it is a little, almost smaller if you will. So yeah, it's I think a little bit more accurate of a detail.

[00:19:33] But you know I think it's really hard to tell what Damon's intentions are in this episode. I don't even know how to begin to talk about it. It's just I feel like I'm blushing a little bit if you if you can believe it.

[00:19:48] His his scenes with Rhaenyra when he decides to take her out of the castle at night sneaks her out. I think he's really looking to push her out of her comfort zone.

[00:20:03] I think to see what her what she's going to do like what's what's her reaction going to be and I think it's an interesting turn of events that when he ends up resisting her and she takes the control. That's when he just that's when he splits.

[00:20:25] And when she takes control like that isn't something that he's he's used to. I think he's very comfortable being the one in control and he doesn't quite know how to act when she does that.

[00:20:38] And I think that that's what makes him unable to perform if you will and continue and then he just bales on her.

[00:20:48] So I think it's an interesting look into Damon Targaryen because this Damon is a character that he can do great things but he could do really bad things. And it's hard to tell what his intentions were with Rhaenyra.

[00:21:08] You know does he care about her? Does he love her? Is he just using her? Yes. All these things are true I think. Oh I don't know if I'd go so far as to say he loves her. I think that there I think he is infatuated with her.

[00:21:25] I think he does. There are some feelings because I don't think that you can watch them in the show and the way that he looks at her without thinking yeah there's probably a little something there. But he does use her as well.

[00:21:39] So there's you know very gray and there's a lot of back and forth and I think all these things are true. Damon is not a good guy though so let's not kid ourselves or maybe kid myself. I keep telling myself that. Damon is not a good guy.

[00:21:57] But Damon is an interesting character. It's hard to imagine where his line of thinking is and what his true intentions were and what his motivations were but I do think it was fun. He's super fun to watch. He's very entertaining.

[00:22:10] Imagine being King Viserys your little brother who's estranged. He's almost exiled. He's been gone for four years not sitting for four years. He comes back with these unknown intentions stains your daughter's reputation you know and this is how he decides to get back at you.

[00:22:35] I mean Damon is just chaos. Yes exactly it. Yeah. So Damon Targaryen I'm all in for Damon Targaryen. I absolutely love Matt Smith's portrayal of him. He's got it nailed. So good.

[00:22:55] Yeah so and that I did enjoy I know that it wasn't for reals you know but I did tear up when they had their little reunion.

[00:23:04] They're in the throne room when Viserys told him rise and they did the little hug and he put his head on his shoulder. I was like wow you know and I think that's what's really interesting about Damon.

[00:23:19] I feel a little bit like the characters do in the show like oh did Damon change is he good now is he going to come back and he's been humbled and you know no he's not.

[00:23:31] We've been I've been full just like the characters so but I did like that moment even though it come to find out it wasn't as true at least for for Damon's part. So yeah gotta love Damon. What's your next point.

[00:23:50] I'm just going to continue in the same vein because I had a lot of the same. Please. I wrote that Damon's motivations continue to be hidden.

[00:24:00] We know a lot about Damon's actions but we don't know a lot about why he does what and what he really wants and how he really feels. He bends the need of Viserys and seems to have solved a lot of Viserys problems for him.

[00:24:20] The seris and Damon seem quite at home with each other. They're joking around about who was their mother's favorite and you think they're going to have a peaceful moment and I guess they had a little tiny moment but it's not long.

[00:24:35] And yet he also seems to thrive on creating chaos. He helps Rinae sneak out of the castle and you know before I even read before I even listened to the end of the episode. I prepped this first and then I just happened to listen to it today.

[00:24:58] And it's funny because I took things pretty differently than what they said. Like I thought yes you could take him taking Rinae out of the castle as him trying to corrupt her or him trying to ruin her.

[00:25:16] Or him trying to sully her reputation, create chaos in the kingdom, threaten her status as an heir which could maybe benefit him. I don't know how it could because if she's not the heir then they still have Aegon. Right. Take her down a dark path.

[00:25:44] It was really unclear and that may have been some of his motivations but at the same time you can see that they're attracted to each other. That she was the one who was saying I don't want to live trapped up in this royal castle.

[00:26:08] She said that she had a desire to see more of the world to be free of the obligations of her inheritance. She wanted to taste freedom and he gave her all those things that she said she wanted.

[00:26:22] She explained, I mean they had a fairly pointed conversation about sex because he was talking about how he didn't have any children. There was a reason for that and she was pretty clear about not wanting to have children.

[00:26:39] All that means is that Damon's not having sex with his wife and Rinae has no interest in having sex with anyone because she doesn't want to have children. He's kind of changing her opinion on all of those things and kind of awakening her.

[00:26:59] His motivations are still unclear and I saw tons of people online who thought this was disgusting and thought this was abuse. I'm not saying that's not a valid point but these are fictional characters in a fictional world. I felt both things at the same time.

[00:27:22] I felt like is she okay to trust him and is this a good path to go down for her? But at the same time that's kind of what she wanted and it did awaken her and show her more of the world. She seemed excited about it.

[00:27:42] She seemed like she wanted to take some control and then she got home and attacked Sir Kristen. I completely get that we don't know Damon and we don't know what his motivations are.

[00:28:00] Now I think when he was on the floor of the throne room and Viserys was attacking him that might have been as honest as we saw him. And it seemed like in those moments he was saying that he's extremely disappointed in the way Viserys' reign has gone

[00:28:23] and that it has diminished the power of the Targaryens and that he would like to marry Rhaenara and roll together and restore in his opinion, restore the Targaryen monarch to where it was.

[00:28:42] And maybe he has a point there and maybe that's not even a terrible plan but it's still unclear whether he's just trying to piss Viserys off or that's his real motivations.

[00:28:57] And I would think if those were his real motivations, kind of letting Viserys believe that him and Rhaenara had had sex which they didn't was not the best way to go about it. Like if you're truly wanting that.

[00:29:14] And even when Viserys, when he first said wed me to Rhaenara and Viserys didn't say don't be ridiculous or no or fuck off, he said you're already wed so it didn't seem out of the realm of possibilities. You know what I mean?

[00:29:34] Well, because look, you know, and I've heard some whisperings as well, you know a lot of differing opinions and again they're all valid.

[00:29:43] You know, I'm not going to discredit anyone's thoughts about any of this but I know a lot of folks were like oh my gosh that's his niece, that's her uncle and that's true.

[00:29:57] But remember we are in a fictional world and we saw this in Game of Thrones and not even with the Targaryens, we had it with Jaime and Cersei who were Lannisters, you know, siblings. And they had knowledge of their relationship.

[00:30:18] We had Dany and Jon, now they did not know their relationship. But this is just a known thing in the world of Westeros with the world of the Targaryens.

[00:30:30] And George R.R. Martin drew from medieval times for inspiration for his world building in Westeros with the Song of Isom Fire. And these things happened. And you know, and again I don't think this is a spoiler because this is before the events, not future events,

[00:30:52] but Jaehaerys and Allysane who were Daemon and Viserys grandparents. So we saw Great King Jaehaerys in the beginning, at the very very beginning epilogue of the season premiere. Him and Allysane were brother and sister. Viserys and Daemon's own parents were brother and sister.

[00:31:14] What was his relation to Emma? Emma was his first cousin. Yeah, and that is the reason why Hemophiliacs was spread, you know, which is a blood disorder. The reason why that spread crazily in the royal family and they had so many deaths

[00:31:36] and children that didn't live to be old ages is because they intermarried so much in the royal families of the 1400s, the 1500s, and so on. So this is something that happened. This isn't something that's happening in 2022 in the world right now. So, right.

[00:31:59] I think for me because look it's in my opinion undeniable the chemistry at least in the show that we're seeing between Daemon and Rhaenyra.

[00:32:12] They're like you said there's a sizzle and in order for that to make sense for me, I have to kind of forget that that's her uncle. Right. It's a fictional show. And they do have chemistry together. There is no question.

[00:32:32] I think a wet blanket might have chemistry with Matt Smith and Daemon Targaryen. I'm telling you, I don't know if he looked at me with that gaze that he did like Rhaenyra in the show. Yeah, so, you know, right or wrong.

[00:32:52] But I think that's what I have to think about. Because it wasn't easy watching Jaime and Cersei. It was hard to not think of them as brother and sister and their relationship.

[00:33:09] Not that I'm saying that that was good or bad, but it was just they had a lot of scenes together. And it was hard to kind of remove that. So that's just my thoughts on it as far as, you know, those two together. What's your next point?

[00:33:28] My next point is Rhaenyra. I'm going to talk a little bit about her specifically. This girl, so we talked a lot about Daemon and his chaos, but I'm telling you what this girl, she grew up a little bit in this episode.

[00:33:45] She snuck out late at night, goes to a brothel, nearly sleeps with her uncle. She did sleep with her knight, lied to the queen on her mother's memory. No, she didn't. She said she didn't sleep with Daemon. She said he didn't touch me.

[00:34:09] Oh well yeah, that is true. You're right. Now however Rhaenyra decided to interpret, you know, did they have sex? No. Did he touch her? There was some hands. Yeah, yeah, no. She lied and she knows it.

[00:34:30] And she gets to keep her title and remains heir to the throne. And in the meantime, the king again for the second time exiles the aforementioned uncle. She then lies to her father, convinces him to fire his second command, who also happens to be his wife's father.

[00:34:54] Well again she didn't lie to dad. He never asked her. He, because he came in and just kind of assumed it had happened. And she said you're not even going to ask me. And he never did ask her.

[00:35:10] You know as a father I think he maybe just didn't want to know. Oh yeah, and I think he thought it was true. Even with Allison trying to like talk him out of it, I think he thought it was.

[00:35:29] I mean obviously he gave her the concoction at the end. Oh yeah, oh yeah. And it's hard to be outraged at him because it could have very easily been true. Yes. Right. Yes.

[00:35:46] But it's, I think it's interesting because we're getting a, I think a different side of Rhaenyra. A little bit of a darker side that you know she was so ready to kind of lie and stand by that.

[00:36:01] You know so vehemently with Allison and also with her father and also how she's, you know, kind of laying it down like hey I'll marry Lenore. But you need to get rid of your hand. So there's definitely a different side that we're seeing.

[00:36:22] But also the other side of her like you were mentioning earlier with her evening that she had with Damon. Damon awakened something in her. And she in this episode definitely embraced her rebellious side but also her womanhood. You know she claimed that, you know, as her own.

[00:36:50] But she made some mistakes, you know, because she did put herself in a position that she should, that she isn't allowed to. Like she can't just go sneaking off to brothel. She can't just go sneaking past the gates without her guards.

[00:37:07] She can't just do those types of things because of the position that she is or that she has without these consequences. You know, that she ended up having to face in this episode. Now she got away with a lot, that's for sure. But boy she nearly got disinherited.

[00:37:25] You know, Viserys was like I should just disinherit her. You know, so she got scarily close to losing that. And but I think that she saw that she kind of got away with it a little bit. You know, she's like okay fine I'll marry Lenore.

[00:37:45] But she still, she still got her way. So I think it's, I think it's something we need to watch for. I think she started out the episode really kind of acting like an arrogant entitled brat. And I think that's because for all these years she's been the heir,

[00:38:05] but she's only had the negative impact of being the heir. Meaning that she's supposed to act like a proper princess. Meanwhile, you know, she sees in the play that Damon takes her to, that the people don't support her and that she's kind of a joke.

[00:38:24] And so that's what the being the heir has meant to her. But she hasn't been allowed to have any of the advantages to being the heir. Nobody asks her opinion about anything. She isn't in the inner circle of making decisions about the realm.

[00:38:43] And the truth is when she has had an opinion about things, she's been pretty savvy about those things. Her decision to go to Dragonstone and just directly face Damon and get the egg back.

[00:38:59] She's, she's been pretty, you know, she has a logistical and tactical mind for these things. And I think when she got serious about it and he said, you know, you need to do this for the realm, which is marry the sea snake son.

[00:39:22] She was like, okay, I will do my duty and marry the sea snake son, but you need to do your duty and get rid of this guy who's been a vulture. And I believe she's right that he has been a vulture. Yeah.

[00:39:37] And, and Viserys has either been too ignorant to see that or too laxadaisical. Like I just don't want to take the effort to do what would be involved in, in, in removing him. You know, he'd been there for a long time since before Viserys.

[00:40:00] So that was going to be a big deal. I think when Renera is given the power to make those decisions, what she, when she gets serious about the realm and about her being in a position of power, she does a really good job of it.

[00:40:19] She's just nobody's giving her a chance. Right. They're treating her like a little girl. Yeah. She's a woman. She's a female, which, you know, she, I noticed that she got to be, be more present during the council.

[00:40:34] Like she had a chair, which I thought was great because before she was being more of her father's cut bear. So she did get to hear the things and you know, kind of hear those conversations. But yeah, she's not asked, well, Renera, how would you handle this situation?

[00:40:51] Or at least we're not seeing it anyway. I have to just go by what we've seen. But you know, nobody is going or the king isn't looking at her going, well, Renera, how would you handle this situation?

[00:40:59] What do you think is the best route to take and kind of test or walk, test that a little bit and see, you know, and then say, well, okay, I'm hearing you, but that's not quite the right thing that we should do.

[00:41:09] So we're going to do something else or whatever. We'll take it under advisement or something like that. I think it would really help her learn to be a better ruler. I mean, if you're wanting to, at least in this world, take the risk of having a woman take,

[00:41:25] take the throne, then teach her to be a good ruler and prove the people wrong maybe that a woman can lead. Right. He's been discounting her for a long time. Yeah. And Viserys is a, you know, we've mentioned it before. He's a weaker king.

[00:41:46] He just wants to wait till things are at such a bad level before he takes action and does anything. He doesn't like confrontation, but you know, this, this episode was different. We got a different Viserys.

[00:42:02] He was a true king, I thought in this episode the way that he handled things like he took action with Reneira confronted her, took action with Damon and then took action with, with Otto rightfully so.

[00:42:17] And when he had that conversation with Otto, he said a lot of things about Otto. And those were things that Viserys had to have known for a long time and had to have thought about. And I just wonder why did you wait till now?

[00:42:34] Like he knew why Otto was putting Allison in front of him. And he just let it happen. Because that's just Viserys to be honest with. He's making the easy way almost like the path of least resistance. That's what he does.

[00:42:50] That's kind of King Viserys in an internet shell. He just, he likes things at peace. He likes things, you know, he wants others to just kind of rule things in his stead a little bit. And he just wants everything to be sunshine and roses.

[00:43:04] And he doesn't like to really deal with it until it's nearly too late. And, you know, it's kind of, kind of what he did here. Yeah. But he did finally do something. Yeah. That was great. Yeah, it was. It was. All right. Is it my turn?

[00:43:24] I think it's your turn. I feel like we just... No, I think it's my turn. Okay. But I think I talked about my point. Oh, okay. Do you have a different one that you went to? I'll talk about Sir Kristen. Perfect. What a cutie.

[00:43:41] So, you could see that Sir Kristen definitely has a thing for Ranae. And I think you've seen this over the episodes when, like when they were stuck when the boar attacked them. But he seemed really reluctant here.

[00:44:06] And I think part of that was he's made an oath, although it seems like oaths in Westeros are usually broken. But also, I think if that was discovered, I mean his life might be in danger. Yes. Right. I mean, they're not going to kill her.

[00:44:28] They're going to kill him. Exactly. But I thought the two of them, although the scene was beautifully done and it really was lovely. And I thought they were two beautiful people. I loved it. But they seem almost like buddies. She really wanted to know what sex is.

[00:44:52] Damon got her all worked up and then left her. And he was the safest thing that was right outside her door. And I do think she's really comfortable with him and she likes him. But they seemed more like friends than anything else.

[00:45:13] And I think he was almost her consolation prize because she would have been with Damon if she had had the chance. I think so. Yeah. And I think she was ready to go to that level, obviously. Yeah.

[00:45:29] And I'm really curious to see what happens with the two of them. It's going to be interesting indeed. And my next point is actually Sir Kristen and his honor actually is my next point. So I'll just join in your conversation or your point there.

[00:45:49] So there is a lot more to unpack in the scene and book talk. Anyone who wants to either hear the differences or maybe wants to hear spoilers or if you're familiar that I'm sure we'll talk more about that later.

[00:46:06] But I think that there's some interesting perspectives about this scene and others. And like we talked, or like we've been talking about Reneira, she's coming off of this high after being with Damon. Like she's feeling herself. And she takes the opportunity to seduce Kristen Cole.

[00:46:27] And we see this moment where he's holding his white cloak, which is the symbol of the valves that he took. And remember you take a valve celibacy when you take the cloak. You know. And I'm sure there's probably something in there about not sleeping with the princess.

[00:46:46] I don't know. Might want to throw that in there. That's a really bad idea. Like not only do you have a valve celibacy, but you definitely should not be sleeping with the princess. The people you're protecting. Exactly.

[00:47:00] But you can tell I think in that moment that he's really weighing this decision and what it means. He could be killed, you know, that is an act of treason. He could dishonor his whole family. Right. He could be exiled.

[00:47:18] And we know how much this opportunity meant to him. You know, he talks to Renea about that. We learn and know that he came from nothing. He wasn't from a noble house, you know, and he understood what it took for him to get there.

[00:47:35] And he talked about that in the previous episode with Renea and how grateful that he was to her for elevating his status in life. He didn't have that before. So there's a whole lot of weight in this decision to put that aside and to break this vow.

[00:47:56] But I just want to say, let's... I think everyone just needs to pay attention to how easily he did give in and break the vow. So I'll let that sit for a moment. He looked at the door several times.

[00:48:12] They pointedly showed him like looking at the door and then not, not leaving. So, you know, we were talking in the beginning about, you know, how the show was directed by a female director, which I think is very obvious and so, so needed.

[00:48:34] I wish they had more and more female directors, especially when dealing with these types of scenes. Because they're... the storytelling in this episode, you know, there's a lot of power dynamics. And in this episode, for me, we're telling it from Renea's perspective that's giving her the power,

[00:49:00] you know, and they're making Damon and Kristen Cole, or Sir Cole, Kristen Cole, objects. They're the objects versus where women are always the objects, right? And they are in turn being put on display. And we kind of see them as Renea does.

[00:49:24] And they get objectified the same way that women have been objectified. And I like it because this is Renea's story, you know. This isn't their story in this episode. This is Renea's story. And I read that director Claire Kilner,

[00:49:45] that she considered Renea's perspective when she was setting up all of these shots. Like, she was very purposeful. And they talked about it, like you said, in the behind-the-scenes feature that they did for the episode. She says that, you know, or that she talked about how the scenes

[00:50:02] were carefully blocked out to show Renea's interests, her fears, her desires. So even with this scene with Damon and Renea when they were in the Godswood, you know, he is seated below her, and she is kind of sit more up at the end of a table.

[00:50:21] And the shots were very purposeful to give Renea the power in those shots. So I like that. And so, you know, when her scene with Kristen Cole, I think we're done very well. Because you could definitely see where she was taking the power.

[00:50:43] But I know I think there are some also some opinions about that as well based on Renea's position and Sir Kristen Cole's position. So again, all opinions are valid, but that's not how I was taking it.

[00:51:01] Right. I guess I never thought about that like he's supposed to obey her. Uh-huh. Yeah. Yeah. And I think going from one to the other just an interesting switch in dynamics. Yeah. I agree. Yeah. It's going to be interesting to see what happens after this.

[00:51:24] So that's all I'll say. Um, well that was mine kind of blended into yours. What's your next point? I'll talk about Allison. I thought she was such a sad figure in this episode. And she has been pretty much from the first episode.

[00:51:46] You can see we don't get a lot from Allison about how she's feeling or what she's thinking. So you have to get it from her actions in the few words that she does say.

[00:52:01] I think the actress does a great job in portraying that with such a quiet personality that she has. She's doing a fantastic job. Yeah. Yeah. Love, I just love her character and Rhaenyra's character like two young women that are just doing an amazing job.

[00:52:24] She's risen to the highest position a woman could hope to rise to in this land. But and she seems to do her duty to her husband and her children. There seems to be genuine caring, you know, for her and the Saras they seem pretty comfortable with each other.

[00:52:45] I'm not sure that Allison ever truly lets her guard down because she's so roiled up inside with duty and honor and probably conflicting priorities between her father and her husband and being queen. But I do think there is genuine caring between the Saras and Allison. I agree.

[00:53:13] So she's married to a husband who's much older than her. I mean probably twice her age, if not more. And he's also very ill. You can see that he has some kind of diabetes or something like that, some kind of wound healing disease.

[00:53:35] And there seem to only be having sex because it's their duty to produce more errors. And I'm sure like it seems like that's always in the back of their minds. Like we have to have more errors.

[00:53:48] Like yes they have Aegon, but in this world of you know, you don't know what could happen. It's very precarious just to have a couple of errors obviously. That's what happened to Viserys with his father and his uncle.

[00:54:09] So even though I'm thinking Viserys probably isn't up for it and Allison definitely didn't seem like she was up for it. They're having sex because that's their duty is to have more children.

[00:54:23] And it made me feel really sorry for her when Allison is called into the king's bed chambers. There's just this look on her face of, I don't even know what it was like exhaustion, defeat, disgust. It was a little hard to tell.

[00:54:42] And she seems to genuinely mourn not having the relationship that she once had with Renera. She didn't choose to go into the king's bed chamber and befriend him initially. She didn't choose to marry him.

[00:55:03] Like these are all things, these are all choices that have been made for her. Yeah, and that's I think probably a point of contention for a lot of folks.

[00:55:14] For this scene as well and Allison, you know, the scene that we get that juxtaposition which, well, we'll talk about here in a minute, but that juxtaposition that we get between the scene with Renera and Kristen Cole and Allison and Viserys. Yeah.

[00:55:34] And Renera says how romantic it must be to be imprisoned and squeeze out airs and then kind of immediately realizes what she has said and how hurtful her words must be landing with Allison. And she does the right thing, you know, she realizes it right away. She apologizes.

[00:55:55] She squeezes Allison's hands and comforts her. But it's obvious that even though she's the queen, she's lonely and she doesn't seem very fulfilled or happy. Mm-hmm. And throughout these first four episodes, you can really see that Allison is torn between protecting and loving Renera

[00:56:19] and obeying Otto with his never-ending ambitions and demands that he's putting on her. Allison tries to sway Viserys to believe that Renera is telling the truth. Or, and I mean, you can see that on the one hand Allison is doing her father's bidding in many ways

[00:56:43] in the things that she does, but also she's trying to be a friend to Renera and she's trying to use her influence with Viserys to do good. You know, even like when in the last episode when they talked about him going to finally confront the crab beater.

[00:57:05] Like Allison has influence on Viserys and she seems like she's a genuinely kind and nice person and again, I could be completely wrong and I'm sorry if you're a book reader and you're like, oh, just great. No, it's fine.

[00:57:21] She seems like a really genuinely kind and sad figure and I just, I hope she gets some happiness somewhere down the road. I'm so silly. Not at all because everything- Happiness in Westeros.

[00:57:38] I was gonna say now that part, yeah, that might be, you know, might be a bit of a stretch there, Winnie, because I don't know what did Tyrion say in Game of Thrones? If you're expecting a happy ending then you haven't been paying attention. That's right.

[00:57:52] I don't know that that's gonna change much in this show. Yeah. So, no, everything that you were saying is spot on. She is definitely a very sympathetic character and I feel bad for her and I'll add to what you said.

[00:58:14] My next point was basically to him and living in a patriarchal society and it's about Renea and Allison. Yeah, go for it. Okay, we'll just have a conversation. We don't have to run over each other or anything like that. I don't want to run over your point.

[00:58:28] No, you're fine. I liked that moment between Allison and Renea. They got so close to being friends again and then they got divided again there at the end. Now, I know Allison was still taking her side to the king.

[00:58:43] She's like, well, she swore to me that she is still a maiden. So even though they had their confrontation. But I don't think she did swear that she was still a maiden. She did but that's what Allison told me. She swore that she didn't screw Dana.

[00:58:58] That's what she swore. Well, this is what she's telling the king. She's like, well, she swore to me. She's like, no, that never happened but then I went home and... Allison's a true girlfriend. She took it and said, she swore to me.

[00:59:12] It's all good when actually we know that she didn't. But again, I think it's just a demonstration of her friendship and how much she loves Renea. So even though they seemed like they were coming together and they were being friends again,

[00:59:27] which I really loved for them because you could really see how close friends that they were before. Viserys made that decision to marry her before Otto kind of just thrust Allison on Viserys.

[00:59:41] So it was good to see that and then it was sad when it was starting to be, you know, taken away from them again. But as I mentioned the, you know, a good part about the episode was that Jax's deposition that we got between her and Allison

[00:59:57] where Allison is kind of stuck in this role, essentially is breeding stock for the king. And, you know, Viserys and Emma, you know, he really did love her but she did understand what her role was.

[01:00:14] She's like, I know that as the king's wife that it's my job to produce heirs and children and that's the role that Allison has also gotten stuck in. And I feel like I'm curious if the narrative that they're trying to build here is,

[01:00:35] if Allison is going to grow resentful of how trapped she has been versus Renea getting to just go out and do whatever the hell she wants. Right. You know. I do think that was the narrative that Allison was trying to say, hey, you know, you should be grateful.

[01:01:01] You're allowed to choose your own suitor and she wasn't. Right. Right. And also- And even though she's the queen, which is, you know, that's a great thing. There are probably a lot of women in that land would want to be that person,

[01:01:18] but they're not living in Allison's skin. And I think Allison does feel trapped. I think that she feels trapped.

[01:01:29] I think that there's going to be some resentment on the side of Allison seeing that Renea just gets to go out and enjoy the pleasures that are to be had there in the kingdom. And also getting to remain the heir to the throne. You know, consequences be damned.

[01:01:51] You know, Allison is having to be there for the king and pop out the heirs, you know? Yeah. And I think that there's definitely going to be a little bit of envy there towards Renea that, you know,

[01:02:09] that she's allowed to just break these rules in this patriarchal society. So I think it's just an interesting look at both of them and how one of them has chosen to break some of the rules

[01:02:25] and the other is basically stuck with this corpse of a man, you know? Yeah. He's like- He's falling apart. He is. And if we learned anything from Game of Thrones, you know, in this world, nothing happens without consequence.

[01:02:55] But I think it was kind of interesting to see that perspective of Allison because we got Renea and Ciri, we got all of this told from a female perspective, but we got it from Allison too. We got to see her point of view.

[01:03:08] So the scene that she had with Viserys, that's taken from her point of view, you know, which I think was, you know, important at all. Or, you know, important as well. So I think it was interesting to see this society.

[01:03:24] Again, we have to keep remembering that, you know, how much of a patriarchal society that this is, that they exist in and how it's very different for both of them. And I think it's going to lead to something later. Yep. Okay. Do you have another point?

[01:03:46] I think we have talked about all of my points. Excellent. I think that was- How about you? I think that's all of my main points. I have a few notes and then I have just a few dragon's eggs. They're my Easter eggs, but I'm calling them dragon's eggs.

[01:04:04] Why don't you go ahead with your notes? I thought just some little notes. I thought Damon walking through the castle gates all hung over and barely walking was just hilarious. He did such a good job with that. He did indeed.

[01:04:22] He's just like the epitome of a fuck up, but like, you know, then he does something like last episode where he's killed, you know, that crazy battle scene where he kills the crab feeder, which is just amazing. Yeah, he's just the best to watch. What else?

[01:04:44] The tapestries behind Allison's bed. Did you notice that? You know, I don't- I remember seeing them in her room in the last episode. They definitely grabbed my attention where I couldn't even pay any attention to the scene or what was the dialogue that was being said.

[01:04:59] All I could do was stare at these tapestries. I can't help it. I'm drawn to it and I thought they were fantastic, but I did not see this episode. I didn't notice it last episode.

[01:05:08] This episode I noticed it and I was like, wow, like that's, uh, was like this giant explicit orgy tapestry. Nice. And that seems odd, right? For the queen. Well, in the, um, was it before she went to Viserys while she was still in her?

[01:05:30] It was in her bed. Yeah, you know, I think there was some question about that because, um, and I'm not sure why because obviously she would have taken over Emma's bed chambers, right? After Emma had passed. So I think it's interesting in the queen's chambers versus the kings.

[01:05:54] I don't know. Maybe that's the wrong viewpoint of me or something. I don't know, but I like them. I think they're great, but it is an interesting choice that they're in the queen's bed chambers. Yeah, I just thought it was unexpected.

[01:06:10] And then I think the only other thing I have is the sea snake son is going to marry Ranae. I mean supposedly as far as we know. And he's a dragon rider. We saw him very briefly in the last episode. Yeah, sea smoke. And he is his dragon.

[01:06:30] And he is Valyrian and Targaryen? Yes. His mother is Rhaenys Targaryen, Corlys' wife. She was the queen who never was. So she is a Targaryen and that is why, uh, Lenore is, um, able to ride dragons. From his mother.

[01:06:51] So he can ride dragons and he seemed like a pretty good fighter, brave battles. Maybe that is a good match for Rhaenara. Um, but I guess we'll find out. We'll find out. I'm hoping we get the wedding next episode. Yeah. I'm ready for a Targaryen wedding.

[01:07:14] We didn't get to see, um, Viserys and Allicens. Yeah, that's sad. I wonder if they just did that for time or? I heard there's deleted scenes. I think there were some pictures shared. Uh, but I think it was on the cutting room floor. I'm guessing for time.

[01:07:33] You know. Yeah. So I think it's out there if you, if you Google it or want to look at it or whatever, but it's, um, yeah, it's a shame. So hopefully we'll get a good Targaryen wedding in this one. And that's the last of my notes.

[01:07:50] I like it. Uh, well a couple of dragons eggs, uh, that I'll mention. So the tunnels that Rhaenara slips out through when she's out to meet, um, Daemon. A little bit of history here, um, and a little bit of a dragon's egg.

[01:08:10] Those were built by Megar the Cruel. Uh, he was the third Targaryen to rule Westeros and he in fact killed the builders to keep the castles secrets. So no one would have knowledge of those. Wow.

[01:08:27] But somebody had knowledge because in Kameh Thrones, uh, Varys used that same tunnel with that room because we see him in the same room, uh, that houses Beleriand, Beleriand the Black Dread, um, with the skull. Uh, we see, uh, Arya down there when she's chasing the cat.

[01:08:50] Um, we see it at least three times I believe in Kameh Thrones. So somehow the knowledge of those, um, tunnels got out, but just a little interesting, um, Easter egg there. We got to see Storm's End as you mentioned. That was really cool.

[01:09:05] Um, hadn't seen that before in Kameh Thrones, so that was a nice little, um, nice touch there. Uh, we kind of mentioned it but didn't really say too much about it and we don't really have to, but I didn't know Westeros had plan B. Right. Right.

[01:09:27] That was unexpected. Right. Yep. It kind of reminded me of Rome because I know in Rome they had it. Mm-hmm. I think I did a little reading and I'd have to go back.

[01:09:43] There's a lot out there and a lot of history that I'm just, again, trying to catch up on. So there's a lot I'm still ignorant about but I think they called it Moonti.

[01:09:54] So it, it, apparently it was a thing but I didn't, I didn't know that prior to that episode but I was like what is happening? Uh, so it sounds like they're wanting to just in case.

[01:10:08] You know, I don't, because she's, I don't think that they truly believe that nothing happened between her and Daemon and so they're trying to make sure that nothing happens from their adventure together. Do you think she drank it? I don't know. I think she probably did.

[01:10:27] I bet she probably did. Mm-hmm. Based on her feelings about having a child. Yeah. Yeah, because, because she, I mean she didn't sleep with Daemon but she did with Kristen Cole. So she knows there could potentially be a need for it.

[01:10:44] If it had just been the, the what had happened or didn't happen with Daemon she wouldn't need to because nothing happened. But since something did happen with Kristen Cole I bet she did go ahead and take it. We just don't see it. Right.

[01:10:58] Uh, we got a little bit of Sir Harwen Strong in this episode which I thought was really fun. That's right. Because he was the one that was the admirer of Rhaenyra in episode three during the hunt when she came back with the boar.

[01:11:18] He was the one that really, he did not seem to mind at all that she had just come back from the hunt covered in blood. He found it very appealing at least based on his reaction versus everyone else's was like, oh my gosh what happened to her?

[01:11:32] Get her a bath. He seemed to be digging it. But he did her a real solid in this week's episode when he caught her running through the streets there and stopped her. And she's like, you know, don't, don't.

[01:11:46] And he, he lets her go calling her boy and allows her to go about her business without, you know, blowing her cover or betraying her to her father. So a nice little scene.

[01:12:00] Again, everyone should just pay attention to Sir Harwen which was a really, again, there was some really spicy sexy scenes in this episode. But that to me was a hot scene. He gave like this little grunt that was what he is.

[01:12:23] Like Sir Harwen and then he looks up and sees Damon and he looks back down and she, she goes don't. And he gives like this little grunt and then he calls her, you know, boy and lets her go off on what she was doing.

[01:12:38] And I was just like, wow. It made me wonder what would have happened had Damon not been there because it seemed like only once he saw Damon did he make the decision to do that?

[01:12:51] I think because if she had been maybe on her own, he wouldn't have let, I don't know that he would have. And again, this is just speculation on my part.

[01:12:58] I don't think he would have turned her in but I think he would have escorted her back to the castle and slipped her back in secretly. Right. I think he still would have kept her secret but I think he would have made her go back.

[01:13:11] There's no way I don't think that he would have left her alone there in Flea Bottom, you know, young princess and escorted.

[01:13:17] But I think when he saw Damon, not to say that he likes Damon but probably assume like, well Damon's not going to let anything happen to her. Well, I think Damon also would kick his ass if he tried to interfere. Yes, there's probably that too.

[01:13:31] I think a lot of people for good reason fear Damon. Right. You don't want to, I think you just don't want to get involved with that if you can avoid it. Yeah. You could definitely see it was funny everyone's reactions in the throne room.

[01:13:43] Damon coming back from exile in this war at the Stepstones because everyone is pretty fearful of Damon. He's a scary dude. Not just what happens in the books and some of what we know but what we've seen in the show.

[01:13:56] There's a good reason to fear Damon and it's interesting because everybody's kind of looking in the throne room like, you know, I'm thinking of like the memes where they're looking this way and then looking this way, looking at Damon and looking at Viserys and you know,

[01:14:08] like, oh what's going to happen here? And then when they reunite and it seems like a good moment everybody's like, oh yay. Yeah. They don't know what to do with Damon. So yeah, there's probably some truth to that too.

[01:14:21] My final note, I loved getting to see Craxies this episode. I'm a little sad we're not getting more dragons or more of at least any or all dragons that we've seen so far.

[01:14:35] It's been a little dragon light the last couple of episodes but we did get to get a little bit of Craxies when Renea is on her way home from her tour. And it wasn't just that we saw him, we got to hear him.

[01:14:48] We got to hear his distinctive like whistle that he has. So I knew immediately even before we saw him who it was and I hope everyone kind of picked up on that.

[01:15:00] We get to hear his distinctive sound when we had the episode was episode two when Renea went to Dragonstone to get the egg. And you could hear Craxies, he had this like whistling and the noises that he made. It's very distinctive. Yeah, he sounds almost like a snake.

[01:15:16] That's what rhymes me up. That's pretty accurate. But I love it because the show runners have, you know, and other people involved with the show that came up with the design of the dragons and such and the colors and keeping them pretty true.

[01:15:33] At least what we've seen so far now. We've only had three dragons that we've seen so far more in the trailers if you've seen the trailers. But they said that they were going to be distinctive with their color.

[01:15:45] You know, so you're going to be able to see when you see this dragon or this dragon, you're going to be able to tell them apart based on their coloration. But also their sounds and their personalities.

[01:15:54] They're all going to have kind of like their own different personalities and also sound. So I loved that, you know, we should have at least immediately known that that was Craxies before he even swept down through the clouds. So really great. I thought because of course dragons.

[01:16:13] But also I thought it was an interesting cool move again. Damon being an agent of chaos, swooping down on the ship was very intentional. It was a very Damon move.

[01:16:25] It was just like two guys walking down or walking down a hall together and one guy intentionally bumps the other guy in the shoulders. He's walking by a little bit of an active aggression. That's what that was like. I'm here. Yeah.

[01:16:37] That's what that reminded me of really great. I think that's all my notes. So I think that's a really great place to end it. Okay, so we do have a little bit of news. I didn't take too much, but I thought just a couple of interesting little pieces.

[01:16:58] This first one that we have is from winterscoming.net. So actor Patty Considine shared some details during an appearance on Entertainment Weekly's Game of Thrones podcast called West of Westeros. According to Considine, the king suffers from a form of leprosy.

[01:17:17] So we I think like you said Wendy, there's been some questions like what is wrong with the king? You know, we know he's getting injured by the iron throne, but his wounds don't seem to be healing and he's really deteriorating.

[01:17:30] We really see some deterioration more so than the last because four years have passed since he married Allison. I was trying to think of the timeline there. So it's there's been some time past.

[01:17:44] So we've seen some deterioration and he actually says his quote, he says his body is deteriorating. His bones are deteriorating. He is not actually old. He's still a young man in there. He's just unfortunately got this thing that's taken over his body.

[01:17:58] It becomes a metaphor for being king and the stress and strain that it puts on you and what it does to you physically, what it does to you mentally. Yeah, I thought it might be diabetes because he's also he drinks a lot.

[01:18:11] And so I was thinking that could be but that makes sense too. Yeah, I mean, I think like one hit most of his one hand is gone. And he's obviously got wounds all over his body as well, which he hides.

[01:18:27] But there were a lot of servants in that room and I'm betting it's it's known. Known but not known right only in the right the servant the gossip and yeah. Yeah.

[01:18:45] Yeah, but I thought that was interesting because I thought well that gives a little bit of clarity as to you know what's kind of going on there. The next one is from insider.

[01:18:57] So House of the Dragon star Millie Alcock said that she felt quite comfortable filming a steamy scene with Matt Smith who plays her uncle. So of course we know all about you know the little tour that Damon takes Renear on and what happens.

[01:19:10] But she says in an interview with the New York Post she said and just for reference, she is 22 so she is at least of age. Yes.

[01:19:19] For the filming she's old enough to be filming these things and in the show just as a side note, Renear is 18 and I think almost 19 honestly with the time that's passed. Which is quite old for women in that world. Yes.

[01:19:34] So I understand a lot of folks' perspectives about some of the scenes but at least she is of age. Right. I want to say that. Alison is her age and she has two children. Right. So she is at least of age.

[01:19:47] We're not talking about anyone under the age of 18 at least we have that. Right. So anyway back to the article. She says it wasn't awkward to film the scene with Smith who's 39.

[01:19:57] She says nope strangely enough Matt and I were just kind of mates so it was quite comfortable. We had an intimacy coordinator and we worked with her through the rehearsal process and blocked it out months before.

[01:20:09] And she continues to say Claire Kilner our director made sure that we hadn't seen any of the brothel stuff until we were shooting. So that was our first time walking through the brothel and he's guiding her through the room with all these other bodies.

[01:20:21] So that was quite shocking. You're like this is kind of weird and silly. There were extras who had just met who are like 69 for 12 hours. It's pretty gnarly. I don't want that role. You know you just hope someone has bathed. Yeah, it's all up to you. Seriously.

[01:20:42] So she said we just felt pretty overdressed because everyone else was nude. So I thought that was interesting. I think it was kind of important to kind of get her perspective on what it was like to film in that scene and how she felt about it. Okay.

[01:21:00] So I think that then takes us into our listener feedback. We got a lot of feedback, a lot to get through. I love hearing from you guys. So I can't wait to talk about this one. This is awesome.

[01:21:12] Yeah, I love that people are having strong opinions about it either way. There are a lot of strong opinions and I'm ready to get to all of them. So Wendy if you don't mind you want to take the first one? Sure.

[01:21:24] The young sphara guest says, okay now I can't decide whether or not this was scary then La Donna on the tales of the walking dead. Lindsay Schlicht says, I'm sorry this is so long but this episode really bothered me. Feel free to cut or edit.

[01:21:46] So this is the Game of Thrones universe and explicit sex is to be expected in the series. Normally it's not something I care about at all but this episode felt like a 45 minute exploitive porn with a few storylines thrown in.

[01:21:59] I guess I'll start with the least horrifying couple, Renea and Sir Kristen. While he did ultimately seem to be a willing participant his reluctance in the beginning made the scene uncomfortable to me.

[01:22:09] His position as Renea's shield may be wonder if he truly had any agency to deny her and what would have happened to him if he had. It made me think less of Renea for putting him in such a position. Next, Allison and Viserys.

[01:22:22] Watching her lay dead eyed under an old man covered in sores felt like nothing less than watching an assault. The fact that it went on for so long felt unnecessary. I remember the episode of Sansa's wedding night and the outrage to me this is barely different.

[01:22:36] Did we need to see this? We could have assumed the 17 year old with two children was already essentially being assaulted constantly by her old ass husband. Why the outrage for Sansa but not Allison? And last but not least, Damon and Renea.

[01:22:50] While it is clear that she is a willing participant here there's a reason we currently have laws against 17 year olds and 40 year olds. No matter how you slice it the maturity experience and power dynamic are too different to be a level playing field.

[01:23:02] From the first drawing of the secret door to them and brothel felt like a carefully laid out plan on his part. To do all that and then act like he did at the end almost like she lured him there like he was angry.

[01:23:14] I have no idea what that last part was. I've read other people seeing as him having a change of heart but I did not see that. I saw more idiotic mind games. Layered on the incest aspect of the situation and went from brutal storytelling to trash for me.

[01:23:28] I know last week you warned us no one comes out great in this one but I think that might be starting to bother me. I don't need a Captain America hero but I need someone to care about.

[01:23:37] I need a John or a Danny or an Aria or any number of characters who sometimes behave badly but never crossed into this type of territory. I don't know who Damon will become in this story but for me he will never be redeemable after this.

[01:23:51] After this episode I can't stand him. The one character I felt hopeful for, Renea, diminished significantly for me this episode as well. So in case I was too vague LOL I absolutely hated this episode. Couldn't even do the rewatch I normally do for feedback.

[01:24:05] Much like the last two episodes of Game of Thrones I'll never rewatch this one again. Hoping you guys can provide some much needed clarity because this one was a huge disappointment for me. I won't stop watching yet but this was the first time I considered it.

[01:24:22] I don't know that I can provide clarity. I just think that like we do so often with The Walking Dead and other shows you have to put it in a certain department of that this isn't the world that we live in.

[01:24:38] And I mean that doesn't make the things okay but I think we're watching a show unfold and I think very much like Game of Thrones there aren't many solidly good characters. Most characters are complex. I mean I don't think Danny was a solidly good character.

[01:25:05] And even Aria really wasn't a solidly good character. So I think I'm not disagreeing with you. I totally understand your point of view and it makes me sad if you stopped watching because of that. I'm sorry.

[01:25:22] I think the only pure character that I can recall and there's probably more but I'm just not remembering in Game of Thrones was Hodor. I don't know too many pure characters. Oh, Podrick was pretty good. Podrick Payne. So in just in response to Damon he's not redeemable Lindsay.

[01:25:44] He's not supposed to be and he's just not you know so you're not wrong in that. He's not a good person. I like him for my entertainment value and you know I kind of joke about all that but if he were a real person it'd be completely different

[01:26:00] but I'm able to kind of take myself out of that a little bit. It's hard to I think think about a lot of this is about perspective as well. We all bring our own perspectives to the show, our own experiences

[01:26:17] and I think that's why there's so divisive you know this episode for a lot of people. It's all about perspective and it's not right and it's not wrong. You're you know so I'm not here to tell anyone that they're wrong for their perspectives

[01:26:32] and their opinions by any means. I know it's different for everyone and I respect that. I hope that you don't stop watching but I mean I understand you know if you don't and just for also you mentioned in here 17 year olds and 40 year olds.

[01:26:50] Renea is older she is at least 18 I think she's about 19 based on the time jump that we had. So I don't know if that helps or not. And I don't think Damon's 40 right? He's younger, youngish. I don't know. I don't know if this is.

[01:27:09] He seems like he's much younger than Viserys but again that could be because of Viserys condition. I'd have to try and do the math because they've aged it feels like they've aged them up a little bit for the show versus the book. Right.

[01:27:23] Hopefully that's not too spoiler to say but anyway. No I think that's pretty known. They did the same thing with Game of Thrones. Yeah so anyway thank you Lindsay for your thoughts. I always love Lindsay's perspectives. Yeah.

[01:27:41] Gijo Puthia says I know it's Game of Thrones and all but I gotta say that I am disturbed by the Uncle Nese scene.

[01:27:49] I don't know why but I feel almost as stunned as the red wedding again I get it that's the world they live in but I can't help how I feel. I don't think you're alone. You're not alone. Lots of people commenting this.

[01:28:03] It's hard to take out our world view of today. That's for sure. I just keep reminding myself of medieval times. Um Derek Whitfield says amazing episode shit is getting real. René Murray says man that Damon is a mess.

[01:28:25] I'm so happy the king realized that Otto didn't have him nor Renéra's best interest at heart. Poor Allison having to do the deed with someone that's old enough to be her dad.

[01:28:36] Oh I forgot to mention I believe Renéra and Damon have been messing around for a while because she didn't seem shocked or taken aback when he started kissing her and it seems at times she was being the aggressor. Allison said you Targaryens do some weird shit.

[01:28:56] I feel like René and I are almost always simpatico because I kind of felt that same way that even from the first episode there seemed to be a lot going on. A lot of unspoken tension between Renéra and Damon.

[01:29:18] And while I don't think they've had sex before, I think René is right. I think they've been close, closer than your typical uncle and niece. There's definitely like a chemistry between them that's pretty undeniable from the time in the premiere episode when he gave her that necklace.

[01:29:41] So I don't think that there's been any messing around but I do believe there's been a tension. I agree. All McIntrair says, I do not know what is wrong with me but I just love Damon. Something about how he saunters about.

[01:30:02] Was anyone else shocked by how Renéra was so forward with Kristen Cole? Ooh wee when they're sex scene but I guess that's what's supposed to happen when your uncle takes you around in Orgy. Quite a difference to poor Allison with her rotting husband.

[01:30:18] Definitely another good episode setting up for what is to come and I am here for it. Yeah, I agree. I think Damon just lights the screens up and you might not like him but you can't stop watching. You can't stop watching. My Al Mairdini.

[01:30:37] Oh man I can't wait to hear Steve Brown's voicemail this week. Starts off with everyone making up and it's a big happy family again. Just kidding. The theme for this week was pleasure versus duty. I loved the juxtaposition of the two scenes.

[01:30:55] We see Allison begrudgingly performing her wifely duties and bearing errors. I thought it was interesting because up until now they show her as happily going along and she seems to love the king. But then maybe not and she's just a good actress.

[01:31:11] The scene with Damon and Renéra left me speechless. I really wasn't expecting that. Matt Smith plays that role so well. It feels so wrong but I still really like that character. I loved the way the scene was filmed with Sir Kristen. Renéra was totally in charge.

[01:31:29] It's rare that we see a sex scene like that where the woman is leading the way and they focused on her undressing him which was so cool. She is now a new woman.

[01:31:38] After some pleasure she is finally ready to accept her duty on the condition that her father gets off his lazy butt and accepts his duties. As much as I'd love to say good riddance to Otto, I don't think he's going to be going away that easily.

[01:31:55] He's too ambitious to just step aside. I think the Sarah suggested that he killed his father to get to where he is. Maybe you can clarify that. Yes, that is what I thought he was saying too. Yes. And then I watched it on the second watch.

[01:32:13] I was like no, I don't think he is saying that but there was some context going on there. Yeah. Anyway, sorry. My continues on with in my second watch I noticed some parallels between Renéra and Arya

[01:32:30] and how they find out what people think about their family through the plays and both dressing up as boys and Allison and Sansa in their forced marriages. Definitely. Yep. Alicia Stout says overall I love this episode and even though I have yet to watch it a second time

[01:32:49] I believe this may be one of my top favorites so far. I'm digging the twists and turns that differ from the book. I know that some scenes in the show are a little bit shocking but lest we forget who the Targaryen family is and what their traditions are.

[01:33:02] Have we all forgotten the beginning of Game of Thrones with Daenerys and her brother also named the series? You don't want to wake the dragon. This episode was a little bit match.com and a lot tender lol. Swipe left, swipe left, swipe oh yes hello Kristen Cole. Yes.

[01:33:23] Hot hot hot. Daemon and Renéra in the brothel. Oh boy Scandi. Daemon was controlling and teasing her and opening her eyes to sexuality and when he realized she was in to it he couldn't go through with coupling so he ditched her.

[01:33:40] This should lead to some interesting plot development later on. Renéra's life is so opposite of Allicent who has no friends and is living the humdrum life of being a queen and squirting out heirs.

[01:33:53] She does not enjoy her coupling at all and can't wait for it to be over with. I mean who could blame her? The series is deteriorating and ew his back. It was nice to see those brief moments of the two girls showing they still care for one another.

[01:34:10] Oh and bye bye Auto High Tower. Don't let the castle door hit you on the ass on the way out. Alright Karen Stoll-Madera says, Did she drink the plan B.T. and poor Auto if only it were that easy to get rid of him.

[01:34:29] As others have said this episode was pretty disturbing in a lot of ways. I think the pacing continues to be very challenging. As I mentioned last week in response to someone else's post

[01:34:41] I wonder if they should have skipped a lot of this and just provided some flashbacks and a voiceover to get us to the dance. I wish there was more time to understand the relationships that Renéra has with Damon and Sir Kristen Cole.

[01:34:55] Parts of the series feel rushed and others too slow. Something that's missing from this show compared to Game of Thrones are the supernatural, mystical and horror elements. Those aspects are what sucked me into the Game of Thrones world.

[01:35:09] Another different but interesting thing is seeing how direct and to the point the Targaryens are. It's a very different culture when a series is filled with Targaryens. Can't wait to hear book talk on this as we get answers to some major questions from the book.

[01:35:25] Yeah, check out book talk. Yeah I'm probably not going to make it too long before I just give in. I actually think I'm going to order the book. I've seen where we've pushed a couple people. We've influenced.

[01:35:42] I've seen people have like, okay I did it, I broke down and I got it and I'm just yay. I love that for you guys. At least read up to what we've seen. Yeah, you know look and if you want I'll help find...

[01:35:56] We can talk offline about that but I can help you know where to start. You don't have to start at the very beginning of Fire and Blood. You can jump into where the story starts and go from there if you want. It's not like a traditional book.

[01:36:10] It's like a history book. That was great Karen. Yeah check out book talking. Let us know what you think. Penny Lennox says, Daemon is R rated Aladdin. I can show you the world. Shining, shimmering, splendid.

[01:36:27] Tell me princess now when did your last, did you last let your heart decide? I can open your eyes take you wonder by wonder over sideways and under on a magic carpet ride. Okay now sing it. No. No, no one wants that.

[01:36:47] I love it Penny that's so great. Penny that was fantastic. Maybe I should have let that for Wendy so you could sing it because... Nobody wants that either. There will not be any singing from Rima on this podcast.

[01:37:00] Okay so we did get a couple of voice messages this week. Now I have two this week from our friend Greg and this was my fault so we have one for last week from Greg and then I'll play one for this week's episode.

[01:37:15] So let's see what Greg has to say about last week's episode. Hello Dragoncast this is Greg. I just want to talk about Viserys in this episode.

[01:37:26] I mean Dungmuirong there were some awesome things with Raniyra and you know douchey Lannisters and all that but like Viserys has turned into like actually a really good dad even if you know some questionable decisions in the past didn't necessarily turn out the way that you know the best way.

[01:37:52] I did like he really has become more likable and like I'm rooting now for Raniyra and Viserys to not die as quickly or maybe he dies quicker so that she's actually I don't want the baby to die but like the next baby or... I'm so conflicted by this.

[01:38:13] I've read the book but it was a long time ago and I can't find my big ass book so I guess I'm just kind of stuck left out to dry with everybody else.

[01:38:22] But I'm really I'm liking it although this pit in my stomach is just like I know it's the world of Westeros and it all gets fucked in the end.

[01:38:31] Anyway, yeah I thought it was the one question I did have made you guys a cover it but who was the douchebag who was telling Otto that he's got to convince Viserys to name Egan the air. I think like we've seen him before but I'm not 100% sure.

[01:38:48] Alright look forward to the podcast. Bye. You know I feel like I would need for that last question he had. I'd have to consult with Archmacer Rani because she's my expert. I think though that was Otto Hightower's older brother. Oh wow. He's like a lord of Old Town.

[01:39:07] I think that's who that was. It wasn't explicit I don't think in the episode though and I could be very well wrong about that there's probably someone screaming at me right now. That's okay tell me I'm wrong but I think that's who it was. Thank you Greg.

[01:39:23] That was for last week's episode so let's see what Greg thinks about this week's episode. Hello Dragoncast this is Greg and on this week's House of the Dragon these are the days of our lives. Some of my favorite awkward moments were oh man that's kind of hot.

[01:39:42] Oh crap she's his uncle. Nope he's her uncle. Oh well now she's going to do it with this other guy and that's cool good for her. Oh wait that completely destroys any chance of any chance of reputation and all that.

[01:39:56] Yep she's totally right how women are pretty much F'd in the A in this in this land. Oh man this is so kind of still kind of hot and disgusting. Oh man I am very confused by this episode and the way it makes me feel.

[01:40:12] And we only got like one dragon for like a second and a half. Anyway it was enjoyable but it was very soap opera-ish at least that's how it felt to me.

[01:40:22] Maybe that's what I what it was like in Game of Thrones but it didn't seem like there was a ton of action although I really did enjoy the puppet play and the like all of the rhyming and stuff. I thought it was pretty good.

[01:40:35] Alright look forward to hearing you guys talk. Thank you Greg. That was fantastic. Okay so last voice message is from our good friend Steve Brown. Alright Dragoncast this is Steve and here we go with King of the Narrow Sea.

[01:40:57] Did this guy just take a break during his pitch to be her husband and to take a drink? Right well the kid proved he could kill somebody. Okay how long has it been now since she's got two months left of seeing suitors? Oh what dragon is that?

[01:41:15] So I guess that was Damon's dragon. He just said the name of the episode King of the Narrow Sea Mike Drop. Oh is that a dig imprisoned in a castle? Oh okay she apologized to her for saying it.

[01:41:26] Okay somebody needs to contact the HBO subtitles for the the Hivalarian language. In this bright scene with your yellow subtitles I can't read a word of it. Okay so Allison had her second baby we don't know what it is yet.

[01:41:39] Okay so someone left her a note and some clothes to change into. And now she's out in the streets without her guard. So it was Damon and he's taking her somewhere.

[01:41:48] Okay so we know the people don't like the fact that she might get thrown but she doesn't care or it's no consequence but he says it's of consequence. Oh that's not going to be good if the king requested her presence and she doesn't go. Yes she did go.

[01:42:03] Okay is that is he gonna know and what now listen to this is getting no pleasure and now Damon is kissing her. Okay this is just wrong. Then he just leaves her all alone. Oh yeah she just walked right past you Christian. Oh now she's kissing Sir Kristen.

[01:42:23] Well at least he's not related to her. That's a whole lot he's taken off and he's going to have to put back on. Oh that's the kid who saw her go out of the thing right so now the palace is going to know.

[01:42:33] But now that's the kid coming back and bringing her money so what is going on? Okay so it is what I thought he just told her everything. And now he's telling the king. Oh the queen's going to get to the bottom of this.

[01:42:43] Oh she told some truth it's not all the truth. Oh and now Damon returns to the castle in disgrace and they're taking him to the king. Oh he's banishing him again and now what's he going to do with Reneira.

[01:42:55] I mean so he's banishing, he said he's sending Damon to the Vale to his true wife. Is the Vale, is that the place where it had the hole in the thing and they would throw people down it? That's a good line the truth doesn't matter only perception.

[01:43:08] Wait is this some poison she's supposed to drink? And of course that's where it ends. I guess the Vale had the moon roof. The moon door. Moon door yes thank you. I had to collect myself I was laughing so hard. At least he's not related to her.

[01:43:31] Oh my gosh so good. Excuse me thank you everyone so much for contributing to the feedback giving us your opinions you know whatever they may be strong opinions or if you're enjoying things that's it's always a great thing.

[01:43:52] I appreciate it so thank you everyone for taking the time. Alright everyone it's time for this week's edition of Book Talk joining me this week as always the wonderful Archmaster Rene from the Citadel. Welcome Rene. Thank you very much I'm happy to be with you here today.

[01:44:11] Thank you I'm very excited to dig into some book talk for the show versus the book but also into those book spoilers so just for anyone who's maybe new to us this week and hasn't heard some of our other book talk.

[01:44:27] The way that we format book talk is we do our first section with the differences on the book versus this episode only.

[01:44:36] And then after that section we will move into some heavy book spoilers so just before warned you can listen to whichever portion that you like or if you want to skip ahead entirely of book talk if you don't want to hear any book talk about this episode or even heavy book spoilers.

[01:44:54] Please skip ahead otherwise we're happy to have you here. So first Rene quickly if I could get your just general thoughts about this week's episode what did you think. I loved this episode. I am loving the show I think this is a great adaptation.

[01:45:14] I love Matt Smith as Damon more and more every episode. There was however one thing in this episode that made me cringe a great deal. What's that? That was Viserys using the sword Blackfire as a walking stick.

[01:45:33] I know it's made of Valyrian steel and setting the point down on the stones won't hurt it won't dull it but Blackfire was not made to be used as a walking stick.

[01:45:46] And just the contrast between last week that Damon did that very sharp move where he kind of spins dark sister in his hand. Compare that to this week Viserys only use for a sword is as a walking stick. I thought that was a great contrast between the brothers.

[01:46:05] That's a very good contrast there and I'm glad that you pointed that out. I agree. I did have again even though you know the blade isn't going to be damaged I had the same thoughts thinking oh man that's using it like a walking stick.

[01:46:21] That's not right but the differences between Viserys and Damon are just so especially in this episode so glaring. So that's a good point. Okay so as far as so I'm glad to hear that you're loving the show and I really like the episode so that's great.

[01:46:47] So let's go ahead and jump into some book differences that we noticed in this show or in this episode. And of course we could also reference past episodes that have already aired.

[01:47:02] But what were some of your biggest points or differences that you noticed or you thought were interesting in this episode? Yeah well so you mentioned also in past episodes they are really changing the chronology of the order in which things happen

[01:47:20] in ways that I think work quite well in the show. But the chronology of the war in the stepstones is really quite condensed that war is over a lot sooner than it is in the books.

[01:47:36] And so when Damon comes back as king of the stepstones and the narrow sea as he is styled in the book

[01:47:45] his return is a bit more dramatic than it is in the show because five years have gone by that he has been away from King's Landing in the books. And there is a tourney happening that is celebrating Allison and Viserys fifth wedding anniversary

[01:48:05] which I don't think we are going to see that tourney in the show at all because some of the events from it were kind of moved up into the tourney

[01:48:13] that we saw in the first episode of the show. But Damon flies in on Caraxies and he lands Caraxies on the tourney grounds and right there on the tourney grounds he walks up to Viserys with the crown on his head

[01:48:27] and he offers the crown to him on the tourney grounds. So that's a difference. Another big difference I think is that in the book Damon declared himself king of the stepstones and the narrow sea

[01:48:43] whereas he says they named me King. So he doesn't you know own up to having claimed it himself in the show. So he declared himself king and then Corleis Valerion crowned him king. And so that's a different approach to his kingness, his kingdom.

[01:49:10] The other big difference is that he was back in King's Landing for six months after his dramatic return on Caraxies and handing over his crown. And during that time he spent a lot of time with Reneara as the book says

[01:49:29] telling her tales, giving her gifts including a jade necklace once owned by the Empress of Lang and they flew their dragons together regularly. They would race to Dragonstone and back

[01:49:43] and that is one thing that I'm sorry we didn't get to see in the show was Damon and Reneara racing Caraxies and Cyrax. Yes, I loved those scenes from the book and I really wish it really wish maybe they had found some way to squeeze that

[01:50:03] and I know that they're moving things along quite quickly like I said they're kind of moving some events around a little bit. But man, I can't get enough dragons and I really like that scene with those two are racing their dragons

[01:50:15] and I've been a little sad for the lack of dragons. The last couple episodes we got a little bit of Caraxies this episode and it was great but in which Caraxies literally rocks the boat. Yes, I love that it was such a Damon move. It really was.

[01:50:32] It was like that shoulder bump that guys do when they're walking up along someone they just like purposely bump them in the shoulder to it's like an act of aggression or something of that nature is such a Damon thing.

[01:50:47] Yeah, that was great. Yeah, it's a bummer maybe they'll maybe we'll still get that somewhere else. Maybe and Damon may go back to the war in the Stem Sons because in the book after he killed Kragas the crab feeder

[01:51:03] the triarchy sent a new commander and the war went on so it's possible that he may return to the war or not. I'm not quite sure where they're going to go with Damon for here but during that five year period

[01:51:21] before Damon's return King's Landing was described as an endless round of feasts, balls and turnies because the series liked he was a party boy in the book. Very different from Patty Constantine's version

[01:51:39] but the show is different in a good way. I like the portrayal of the series in the show very much and during that five year period Allison had three children at this point in the show she seems to just have the two

[01:51:56] Aegon the boy who was two in the last episode and now Helena the daughter who's a baby. Yeah, I like seeing little Elena that's the only sight we got of her but yeah that was interesting now that we've got her.

[01:52:12] Yes and during that time many lords and knights sought Renea's favor but she only had eyes for Ser Christian Cole and Allison remember Allison and Renea were not friends in the book Allison is nine years older than Renea.

[01:52:38] Yes and the big change in the book is to have made them very close in age and very close friends as young girls.

[01:52:48] So Renea makes this snappy comment in court one day she says Ser Christian protects the princess from her enemies but who protects the princess from Ser Christian? A very true statement and considering what happens in this episode.

[01:53:11] That's right. Well actually it was poor Ser Christian who needed to be protected from Renea. Yes he needed protection from her yeah. So the series. I don't want to say much more about Kristen and Renea in the non-spoilery section. Okay okay that's fine.

[01:53:41] Yeah something in the book I'll just in this section I'll just say something happened between them in the book there are different versions of it given by the different sources that Fire and Blood is. Draw the different fictional sources that the fictional Fire and Blood is drawing from.

[01:54:00] And so something happened that I'll have more to say about in the spoiler section but what happened between Damon and Renea there are also multiple versions of that. So there's the clean version which is kind of the original the official version given by Grand Maester Runciter.

[01:54:27] Who says just that the brothers quarreled Damon in the series quarreled and Damon returned to the step stones. So that's the PG version. Others and I don't know I'm making air quotes that which of course nobody in the podcast.

[01:54:45] Others with air quotes because the others are not specified in Fire and Blood but those others say that Allison urged the series to send Damon away.

[01:55:00] But then there are the less PG versions of what happened so Septimusus who is generally given as the more reliable authority according to Archbaster Gildane who's writing Fire and Blood. Says that Damon seduced Renea and Sarah Eric Cargill there are twins Eric and Eric.

[01:55:29] One spelled with an A one spelled with an E it's hard to say them with a differentiation but that Sir Eric Cargill of the Kingsguard discovered them in bed and brought them before the king.

[01:55:42] And Renea said she's in love with her uncle and pleaded with her father to be allowed to marry Damon. And the series said that Damon was already married and therefore couldn't marry Renea. Notice that his objection isn't that he's reneer uncle but that he's already married. Right.

[01:56:03] That's what we're worried about. That's the only thing Targaryen's worried about. And so that the series can find Renea to her chambers and send Damon away and swore the two of them to secrecy to never admit that they had been lovers.

[01:56:24] That mushrooms version is as Archmage Archmage Master Gildane calls it far more depraved. As always with mushroom. And I have to tell you Rima I always believe mushrooms version. You know I lean into that too. Yeah.

[01:56:47] So mushrooms version is that Renea is in love with Kristen Cole but he's true to his vows unlike unlike in the show.

[01:56:59] And so Damon tells Renea that Kristen Cole is seeing her as the little girl that she was because remember in the book she was seven when Kristen Cole became her sworn shield. Yes.

[01:57:13] And so he tells her that Chris sir Kristen is seeing her as the little girl she was not the woman that she has become. So Damon gives her sex lessons basically which mushroom claims he himself was sometimes involved in. Yeah. He was.

[01:57:33] I think he was exactly mushroom says that Damon would smuggle Renea to brothels dressed as a page boy where she could observe and learn. And that this went out and went on for some time when she finally tried it out on Kristen Cole though he spurned her.

[01:57:50] He didn't go for it. And the tail came out. That's the language that the book uses the tail came out mushroom himself was a bore some responsibility for the tail coming out. And Viserys refused to believe any of it until Damon confirmed that it was true.

[01:58:10] And at that point he asked Viserys to give Renea to him as a wife since as Damon says who else would take her now. But instead Viserys banished Damon for life upon day pain of death should he return.

[01:58:26] And at that point he went back to the war in the stepstones. So the show has steered another course and said parts of all these stories are true. It wasn't that interesting. Yes.

[01:58:43] I love how they took different pieces of it and made made that the events or at least show canon. That's right. Yeah, that's right.

[01:58:53] And I think that you know it makes perfect sense to do that because Fire and Blood saying there are different versions of these stories we don't know which of them are true. And the show presents a version which could definitely have spawned the competing of other versions.

[01:59:12] And so parts of all of the versions have some grounding in the truth as the show presented it. And I think that is brilliant adaptation. I agree because it's like real life right?

[01:59:31] There's this side of the story and this side of the story and somewhere in between there's the truth. So that's very much how it felt to me whenever I was watching a play out.

[01:59:42] I was like oh we're getting those sprinklings of this story but we're also getting sprinklings of this one which makes it kind of seem like well neither version was 100% correct but they weren't 100% wrong. They had sprinklings. But what we saw was I guess the truth. Right.

[02:00:01] The elements are there was something with Rhaenera seducing or attempting to seduce Kristen Cole. Something with Daemon taking her out and teaching her about sex. And all those elements are there in all of those stories. And Daemon asking Viserys to let him marry Rhaenera.

[02:00:32] Which by the way I believe was the last opportunity to prevent a civil war.

[02:00:40] I think that if Viserys had married Daemon to Rhaenera that that would have short up her claim so that there would not be this prospect of civil war between her and her half brother who many people see as the heir.

[02:01:00] And I think you know of course then there'd be no story. The next episode would be the wedding and then there'd be no more story. And what fun would that be? Actually not fun at all just because of the events to come.

[02:01:23] Or not what I would describe as fun which we'll talk about soon but so yeah you're right but you're right that that would have been an opportunity you know then but gosh Viserys was just not willing to let Daemon get close to the throne at the end.

[02:01:39] Not at all. So he scrapped that pretty quick.

[02:01:43] Yeah so the other big change that I see is in the character of Allison and I like what they're doing with Allison in the show because in the book she's kind of she fits a bit into this stereotype of the wicked stepmother. Indeed she does.

[02:02:04] She actually is Renea's stepmother. It doesn't feel that way in the book because they you know they're the same age and childhood friends but she married Renea's widowed father so indeed she's her stepmother.

[02:02:15] But it is Allison who is pushing and pushing and pushing about the succession in the book not her father.

[02:02:24] She so the matter had been decided so far as King Viserys was concerned it was not an issue his grace cared to revisit but Allison questions this and her father Otto is described as her supporter.

[02:02:43] Not that he's the one pressing the matter but that he's supporting Allison and pressing it and this is a this is another change which is about how Otto gets fired from his job as hand in the king.

[02:02:58] He was pushed so Viserys was pushed too far on the matter and he stripped their auto of his change of off chain of office.

[02:03:08] In the show Renea is the one who makes that deal with her father that I that she'll marry Lain Arvelarion without an argument if in return her father will make Otto not be hand anymore.

[02:03:23] And so I see the changes in the show as giving Allison less agency but also let making her less of a stereotypical wicked stepmother out for the you know the advantage of her own children right and gives Renea more agency because she has become politician enough to see that she can make this deal with her father.

[02:03:52] To get rid of Otto. You're right that's that's a good point there. I like the changes too and I think that it's also interesting because it's who do you root for you know for events to come.

[02:04:10] Right yes that I think that's going to be a big problem going forward as soon as you were four. Yeah yeah.

[02:04:17] Yeah it for me reading the book it was like I knew what and I don't think I'm going to waiver in the show I feel like my my loyalty is strong but I can see where it's going to be really interesting for a lot of folks either who haven't read the book or maybe if they have might change their minds you know who they think is in the right for future events.

[02:04:42] Yeah. And then there's one last small change that I wanted to mention in the non spoiler section and that is my sorry in the book she is in lease for several years rather than remaining in King's Landing.

[02:04:56] But it makes sense for her to remain in King's Landing so she can make one or two more appearances this season because you have to keep an actor employed if you want them to come back in subsequent seasons you can't just you know if you don't do that then you end up with like the recasting of

[02:05:16] Berek Dundarian in the original Game of Thrones he appeared once in one season and then when he came back in a later season it was a different actor altogether. Right. It's like we had like three different mountains. Yep. So that was my observations for the non-spoilery section.

[02:05:41] That was also great thank you so much. So observant. I love all of that.

[02:05:47] So with that being said to anyone listening we're then going to move on to some really heavy book spoilers for future events for what's going to happen in the books or and what could happen in the show.

[02:06:02] I mean there's I'm sure some of these events are going to happen or it might just be a question of how I guess because we're on the journey. The journey is what we don't know. I think at the end we do.

[02:06:12] So just if you want to skip ahead if you don't want to be spoiled and know what happens in future events then please skip ahead to the end. So you've been warned. All right so with that ready go ahead with your first observation. Yeah. Yeah.

[02:06:29] So as I mentioned in the non-spoilery section after in the stepstones after Damon killed Kragas Krabfeder he the triarchy sent another commander and that is a Ricalio Rindoon. And he is a very colorful character who it would be great if we got to see him.

[02:07:03] You don't get a lot of detail about him in Fire and Blood but he has also talked about in the World of Ice and Fire which adds a little bit to his characterization.

[02:07:16] He liked to dye his hair in his beer purple with orange streaks and he bathed in lavender and rose water and he sometimes dressed as a woman. So I would love to see that character on screen. I don't know if we will or not. I don't know.

[02:07:38] I love you know in Game of Thrones they always had a sprinkling of some really colorful characters so I hope they continue with that in House of the Dragon. You know just a sprinkling. So yeah it'd be great if we got to see that. Yeah. Great.

[02:07:53] So in this time period already there's a faction developing the Queen's Party composed of powerful lords friendly to Allison and supportive of the rights of her sons. And the party of the princess is pitted against them and that's Renea's supporter.

[02:08:16] And so already this factionalization has started and we don't really see that at all happening in the show. And it's noted that King Viserys loved both his wife and his daughter and hated conflict and contention and he strove to please them both and keep the peace.

[02:08:35] But here it's you know Allison is really playing that peacemaker role which is a very different role than what she has in the books. Yes.

[02:08:45] And these two parties these two factions even the dragons pick up on this conflict because some sharp eyed observers noted the dragons of the other party snapping its spitting flame at the dragons of the others whenever they chance to pass near each other.

[02:09:05] So even the dragons are in conflict at this point. I love that.

[02:09:10] Again, you know we've talked about the bond between dragon riders and their dragons and you know how they just seem to be in sync right or maybe kind of feel each other or pick up on their energy maybe.

[02:09:26] So again leads to I think that theory a little bit too. I love that. Yeah. So I mentioned in the non spoiler section they fifth anniversary party where there's the tourney where Damon lands caraxis and when he returns as king of the narrow sea.

[02:09:47] That is the tourney at which Allison wears green and Reneira wears red and black and they become the greens and the blacks. They become known as those two factions.

[02:10:00] So that's also the tourney where Kristen Cole wore Reneira's favor and we saw Kristen Cole get Reneira's favor at the tourney in the first. That's right episode.

[02:10:13] So that's one of the reasons why I think I don't think we're going to get this tourney which makes me wonder will there be an event where we get greens and the blacks and did you notice in this episode.

[02:10:24] Reneira kept wearing green and Allison kept wearing wearing red and black. I did notice. Allison wearing the red and the black.

[02:10:36] I don't know that I was observant paying attention to I think just because I love the costume so much I kept going oh my gosh Allison's costumes are just. And so I mean they all are they're fantastic but I did not notice Reneira wearing the green.

[02:10:51] It wasn't like a deep emerald green it was kind of a pale green but it was definitely definitely green. Oh interesting. Yeah. Well I mean I think and I mean I don't feel like it's really spoiling too much for the next episode.

[02:11:06] I don't know if anyone's watched the preview but I mean we know that Reneira agreed to marry Lenore so I feel confident in saying that we're probably going to get a wedding. Yes. Next episode and I wonder if maybe that will be the event.

[02:11:24] That may very well maybe yes that would make sense so entirely possible.

[02:11:30] Yeah it's just a guess but you know if we're talking about an event first it kind of sparked this that I feel confident that's probably what we're going to get then because they're definitely moving things along at a piece with some of these events.

[02:11:44] So I feel like we're probably going to get that and that might be an appropriate place to do it. Yeah so. Speaking of that wedding in the book Reneira has just turned 16 when she marries Lenore and Lenore was chosen for her by the small council.

[02:12:04] So prior to that great lords and dashing knights fluttered around her like moths to a flame including the sons of Lord Bracken and Lord Blackwood who fought a duel over her but it was not a duel to the death.

[02:12:22] It doesn't say that either the Bracken or the Blackwood died in that duel but we see it in the show where the Blackwood boy kills the Bracken bully. Such a great scene. I'm calling them dragons eggs for this broadcast instead of Easter eggs.

[02:12:45] Call them dragons eggs but a great dragon egg for this episode. You can see the Blackwoods and the Brackens and a little bit about their feud. Yes they're ongoing feud which will continue going on. Doesn't end here folks. No it does not end here.

[02:13:03] So Allison wanted it was her not Otto who suggested that Reneira marries Aegon who wasn't two at that point but he's 10 years younger than Reneira so he's six at the time of the suggestion.

[02:13:21] And the council didn't you know the series and the council didn't go for that suggestion. But when the council is discussing the possibility of Lenore Valerian they did note that Lenore who was 19 at that point so Lenore is 19 and Reneira is 16 in the book when they get married.

[02:13:44] Reneira is 18 in the show. It's not clear how old Lenore is because he appears to have aged a lot more. The child actor looked so much younger than the adult actor that it's hard to figure out how he was supposed to be at this point.

[02:14:00] The council did note that Lenore had never shown any interest in women. Grand master Melos he's the grand master who's at the in this ball council.

[02:14:13] He dismissed this concern saying what of it I do not like the taste of fish but when fish is served I eat it. So I remember that line. So I have to say I give George R. R. Martin a solid C plus.

[02:14:35] He does include characters who are not straight in his medieval fantasy world which is much, much more than many writers do.

[02:14:47] You go George but he does tend to lean on this stereotypical and a historic idea of these gay male characters who never can or never will have sex with a wife in order to procreate. That's a much more modern idea than a medieval idea.

[02:15:15] So you get that with Reneira and you get it with Lenore and that's why you give him a C plus because that's just not...

[02:15:29] The ideas about sexual identities that we have today are very contemporary and somebody like Lenore, somebody like Rene Lee could have far, far, far have preferred the company of men, sex with men.

[02:15:44] But this dynastic God produce an air thing is so much of a big deal that it is unlikely that they would not be able or willing to produce airs.

[02:16:02] And Lenore is portrayed much like Renly in that respect although in another respect he's very different which is they have him knighted two weeks before the wedding because they think that he ought to be a knight.

[02:16:17] And he's kind of... He doesn't do much of anything. I really like the way they've made him much more of a badass in the show and he's the dragon riding come in and save the day in the battle.

[02:16:32] Yeah, and a good strategist. He had that good strategy for the step stones so I do like how they've kind of changed that up a little bit because he was a little bit different there in the book.

[02:16:46] So when Reneer is told that the small council has chosen Lenore to be her husband, she rejects it and she says my half brothers would be more to his taste.

[02:16:59] So then Viserys pleads with her and argues with her but she would not agree to marry Lenore until Viserys threatened to take this succession away from her, to make her not his heir. And it is that knight that something happens between her and Kristen Cole.

[02:17:23] And by that time, by the way, he is Lord Commander of the Kingsguard. He's no longer the one standing watch outside her door because the previous Lord Commander had died and he'd been promoted to Lord Commander.

[02:17:39] And this is where there's two different versions. One, I talked about this last time. One version is that Reneer goes to him and pleads with him to take her virginity because her husband won't want it and he turns her away and she storms off mad and runs into Sir Harwin Strong in the hallway and he obliges her.

[02:18:05] The other version is that Kristen Cole comes to her and says, oh, don't marry Lenore. Run away with me. I'll go be a cell sword in Essos and we'll live like that.

[02:18:17] And she says, are you kidding? I'm a Targaryen. I'm not going to run off with a cell sword. Those are the two versions of what happens in the book.

[02:18:24] There still has to be something that happens between them to turn Kristen Cole away from, you know, against her because after that night whatever happened, whichever version happened or whatever version happened, he becomes her bitterest foe.

[02:18:44] And I'm very interested to see what they do in the show to make him into her bitterest foe.

[02:18:53] I wonder too. And I wonder if it has something to do with the scene that we get between them where they do the deed and I wonder if he's going to feel, and this is just a theory.

[02:19:08] I don't know because it is clearly they're handling it just a little bit different but there has to be a betrayal. There has to be a betrayal.

[02:19:14] So what sparks it? I wonder if he's going to feel rejected by Rhaenyra because he put his vows aside for her when they were together. Like you could see how he was gazing at his white cloak or his cloak when he was putting it aside.

[02:19:32] Like he's that some heavy weight there that he's putting aside everything that he has sworn to and putting that aside to be with Rhaenyra and maybe him finding out, and I don't know if this is a play out but maybe learning or if he learns that maybe Rhaenyra used him that night.

[02:19:51] And he's maybe has those feelings towards her. He feels rejected by her. He feels used by her and he's like thinking maybe I broke my vows for you or to be with you or to do what I did and you play me like this.

[02:20:07] That's just a guess of maybe how that might play out. The other interesting thing in the power dynamics in that scene is over and over again we hear how dangerous marriage and producing heirs is for women. Yes.

[02:20:24] Because as we see Rhaenyra's own mother dying in childbirth but for Kristen Cole what he's doing is potentially a capital offense because he's committing treason by having sex with the princess and heir to the throne.

[02:20:44] And he's violating his Kingsguard vows and there are previous Kingsguard members who have been found to have had relationships with women and children who were castrated and sent to the wall or who were executed.

[02:21:02] So there's a very big and very real risk for him in having sex with Rhaenyra. Absolutely. I mean that's like an act of treason he could you know if he's very lose his life. Right. He could very easily be executed for that so he's very vulnerable to her.

[02:21:23] Absolutely. So yeah I see how they handle it. Exactly. So that's why I'm thinking what you're saying about you know he might feel betrayed. I think that is very possible. But he has to feel really betrayed because he has to become her bitterest foe.

[02:21:39] I know it's got to be serious because yeah he goes hard for her in the book you know he's not playing around in the book as far as going after her. No. And he is the one who will put the crown on Aegon II's head. Yeah.

[02:21:59] And be his hand. So yeah.

[02:22:04] One thing about the in the show what we see is when Rhaenyra is dressed as a boy and she's in the street in King's Landing she bumps into Sir Harwin Strong who's he's a gold cloak and he's on patrol and you know they recognize each other

[02:22:23] and I think that is the show's nod to Mushroom's version of the story where after she storms out of Chris and when Kristen Cole turns her down and she runs into Harwin Strong and he becomes the one who she has sex with.

[02:22:41] But he's an important character because she is the one who he is the one who she will be accused of. He will be accused of being the father of her children not Lain or Valerian. The book is very inconclusive about that.

[02:23:01] It heavily hints that her children are strong not Valerian. But it never comes out and verifies that. Right.

[02:23:13] She holds to the fact that Lenore is their father and some others do but then there's a lot of folks that don't and that definitely plays a part in events to come. It does. So finally this is the the most heavy heavy heavy duty spoiler.

[02:23:40] I can't believe that they put this in the show you know what I'm going to say. Yes. So the most heavy duty spoiler of them all. A street person. I don't know if that's a seer.

[02:23:55] A megan frog kind of figure says to Reneara child do you want to know your fate. Sorry. Do you want to know your death? Yes. And then that dragon head breathes fire. I said aloud when I saw that did they actually do that. Did they go there. Yes.

[02:24:21] Because that's the end you know that that prefigures exactly Reneara's end. I was in shock. I my hands to my face I leaned way forward and scooter to the edge of my seat almost fell over and I was like did they really just do that.

[02:24:40] That was some of the darkest foreshadowing I've seen in really was time if not ever in either show that they showed that they didn't have they put it right there.

[02:24:53] Put it right out there and did you notice that there's actually another one which is Allison is holding Helena baby Helena in front of a window. No. Oh my gosh I did not pick up on that.

[02:25:10] Oh maybe the very window that Helena will go out of in the future. Oh my gosh that's such a great observation. No that was not thinking of that at all but oh my gosh great pickup.

[02:25:26] Yeah very well maybe yeah probably I feel like every I feel like this is probably very intentional they don't do a lot of you know. Oh we didn't think of that or you know I feel like right these writers and show runners definitely understand the content.

[02:25:43] Yes so they definitely do intentional great pickup. Yeah I have no doubt that it was intentional. Was that. That was all of my observations. So good so a couple of thank you for all of that just absolutely fantastic as always.

[02:26:06] I'm looking through my notes to see if there was something that we hadn't already talked about.

[02:26:13] I like that they are giving a little bit of a prelude I think to Renea's future self that we're going to see I mean I feel like this is maybe who she always was and we're getting a little taste of that because

[02:26:29] in this episode as she's being questioned in quotes her truth about what happened you know we see this later when she's questioned everyone keeps questioning her truth about the parentage of her children by Harwin Strong.

[02:26:46] She's such a good liar you know and she demands you know off with their head you know if someone dares to question who her children's real father is you know she's well it wasn't me and if someone says it was they're committing trees in you know just like she was saying to Allison you know how you

[02:27:05] know to commit or to question my virtues and act of treason and holding so strongly on to what she sees as the truth and I thought oh boy we're getting getting that little taste of Renea that I think we're probably going to see

[02:27:21] book version in a future I don't know if we'll see it this season but maybe in a future season I'm not sure where where we're going to end this particular season.

[02:27:32] So I think that was good. Yeah and in that she says I swear to you I did not sleep with Damon.

[02:27:42] True enough but not the whole truth and you know and maybe and then Allison turns around and says she swear she's still a maiden that's not what she swore at all.

[02:27:54] She swore she didn't have sex with Damon right not the same thing and she didn't but and she says he didn't she didn't he never touched me.

[02:28:02] He didn't touch me right so they didn't have sex but there was definitely he touched her touch it there was a lot of a lot of handsy things going on for sure. So so yeah and wow I swear on my mother's memory. I know. Holy cow.

[02:28:24] Woo that I mean she was willing to go that far. I thought oh boy we're definitely getting some some future Renea here. It also felt like they were kind of setting her up a little bit to not be very political savvy.

[02:28:40] I feel like she lacks out a little bit in the books you know in one instance of that is when she was having to be reminded to show courtesy or pay respect to some of her suitors there in the beginning when when they were at storms and and how she was kind of insulting some of them you know I think that's a little bit of foreshadowing.

[02:29:01] Kind of like in an earlier episode when she was told to the Kingsguard when she was choosing the Kingsguard and she's like well you might thank him for your their service your grace you know.

[02:29:12] Yeah I thought it was kind of telling during the street play the small folk not liking her very much. Yeah that's another foreshadowing. There was foreshadowing about bastards.

[02:29:27] Yeah in this when she's talking about well if I were a man and went out and fathered however many she named bastards. So for some foreshadowing there the secret passage. They're at King's Landing I wonder if we're going to get some blood and cheese.

[02:29:43] I think we are yeah. Yeah I don't know when but. And that's gonna be not going to show him to us you know and yeah I know. That's going to be one of those really shocking moments for people who don't know what's coming.

[02:29:59] I feel like it might be. Up there if not worse than the red wedding. Yeah for some people that that are show watchers only maybe yeah if however they decide to show it. I don't know what they're going to do to handle that.

[02:30:16] But I feel like they're showing it and it's maybe foreshadowing moment maybe same with Storm's end we got to see Storm's end. They're not going to go to all the trouble to build that set right without coming back to it later. Yeah yeah.

[02:30:33] We get some we get some future future things happen there as well.

[02:30:42] Let's see I think one other thing sorry the last thing I'm curious your thoughts on you know in this episode it feels this episode and others they're really leaning hard into the Prince that was promised the Azor a sigh a high sorry prophecy.

[02:31:01] Do you think they're doing this to lay out something for other spin offs. Yes potentially yes yes. It's very interesting and it. It makes me hate season eight of Game of Thrones even more.

[02:31:32] But it makes me look forward to the release of the Winds of Winter and a Dream of Spring even more also. But yes there are you know there's kind of endless potential spin offs that could happen. Yes.

[02:31:47] I wish they'd go all the way back and do an Aegon's Conquest series. I would live for an Aegon's Conquest spin off Aegon and his sister wives. Yeah please somebody. Please. Oh that would I mean I'm loving this but oh my gosh this this I would just die.

[02:32:14] Start writing it for you we have a flashback to old Valeria and Danish the dreamer. You should do that you should put some pen to paper and write us some fan fiction at least.

[02:32:27] Rene because I don't know if that'll be all that we get but I I I nominate you to leave. Yes. But yeah please if we could have Aegon and the original Rainys and Visenya and Valerian

[02:32:47] and Vagar and oh my gosh I can't remember Rene's is Dragons name but yeah Dark Sister in Visenya's hand Black Fire in Aegon's hand yeah but speaking of Black Fire I think another really possible

[02:33:02] spin off is the Black Fire Rebellions which are later in the timeline than the Dance of the Dragons. That would be great. I hope they keep up I hope they do something like that. You can see the young bloodbraven Brendan Rivers.

[02:33:22] There's also with Dark Sister in his hand. You see a theme here I just want to see Dark Sister. We can't we can't get it enough.

[02:33:32] Yeah I would be just as pleased but yeah I was just curious I thought wow we're getting it again which I'm fine with.

[02:33:40] I don't mind it so much but I'm just I'm like they're really kind of putting those little nuggets out there so I don't know if it has something to maybe do this with the spin offs or like you said the books that haven't yet been released. Right.

[02:33:54] Is there you know are we getting these little droplets for those those books and that's going to make more sense when those books come out so obviously I don't know anything just kind of curious because I thought yeah we're getting it again.

[02:34:09] One one thing I think that that was really seeing here though is that these show runners are leaning into the high fantasy elements in a way that the Game of Thrones show runners tried to lean away from and

[02:34:27] I think that's part of why they're emphasizing this prophecy because that is part of the the magical elements. That's a good point that's a good point and I think you're right and I like that they're leaning a little bit more that way. Yeah personally I think it works.

[02:34:49] I love it. Okay. You have to when you have dragons because dragons are magical beasts and there were no dragons right Game of Thrones. Exactly. You know at the opening right right in the first the whole first season there's no dragons right so it's there's nothing.

[02:35:10] We see the brief snippet of the others at the the White Walkers at the beginning and then we forget all about them for the rest of the season and then until the very end there's really no magical elements at all until the dragons are reborn.

[02:35:24] That's true and they kind of oh gosh and it's been a hot minute so I don't remember exactly but it's referenced somewhere or spoken about you know dragons disappeared when there was no magic left in the world something to that effect and I'm kind of paraphrasing

[02:35:38] but you know what I'm talking about. Yeah. So you're right there's still magic in the world right now because we have dragons. That's right. We lose the magic we kind of lose the dragons they kind of go hand in hand can't have one without the other.

[02:35:51] I wish we had magic today and in our wish we had dragons today. We should have dragons gosh anyway that was fantastic any other last thoughts for book talk spoilers. No I think that is it for this episode.

[02:36:08] Wonderful well Renny thank you again so much for your time this week as always it's been an absolute pleasure and I hope you join us again for the next one. Thank you very much now I'm back to the Citadel and my duties there.

[02:36:25] That's wonderful thank you so much. All right. So next week we're going to be covering season one episode five of House of the Dragon titled We Light the Way. I don't feel like that gives us anything.

[02:36:43] Gives us nothing which I'm fine with because I actually did look ahead I'm not going to say it here but I was I actually have all of the titles of the future episodes and I feel they get spoilery.

[02:37:02] So I don't know if I'll continue to post them or not. But anyway we'll see but that's the title for next week gives us nothing and I'm okay with that.

[02:37:13] So you can leave feedback at our podcast to the Facebook page we do post weekly feedback threads or you can leave your feedback by email or send a voice message we love those two at dragoncastica.com.

[02:37:28] Go out and leave a review and subscribe for a dragging cast on Apple podcast. You can find dragging cast and a bunch of other great podcasts at podcastica.com.

[02:37:41] A lot of great podcasts happening right now we just started up with Cobra Kai cast that came back this week. Super excited for that.

[02:37:52] We are dropping two episodes of Handmaid's Tale on September 14th which will probably this will be that will already have taken place when this comes out.

[02:38:08] Hulu is dropping two episodes on September 14th and we already recorded our first two episodes because we had access to the episodes ahead of time.

[02:38:18] I've watched the first three episodes and it's so good like House of the Dragon and Handmaid's Tale is the thing I'm most excited about. Like that's fantastic. They're both really good. So if you're into Handmaid's Tale that's a must see.

[02:38:38] Absolutely and you guys do such a fantastic job with the coverage for that because there's some really sensitive things on that show. So you guys do a really great job breaking that show down and handling the material. It's so well done.

[02:38:57] It really is a labor of love for me like I always know like just like this coming on here is a labor of love because I love talking about it with you. Same same. Yeah. Absolutely this is definitely a labor of love.

[02:39:12] It's a lot of time and energy but it is just the best. I love talking about the show and I love geeking out with you and anyone that wants to geek out on honestly.

[02:39:23] I'm going to be in and I'm going to end up like talking to strangers in the street before too long. Yes. I know when I meet people and I have conversations or you know like at work and stuff and I'm like what are you watching?

[02:39:37] And like they're like CSI or something like that. I'm like no no you're not my people. You know all the respect. Not that there's anything wrong with CSI but these shows are so good. Yeah.

[02:39:51] And viewership I saw a little snippet that viewership went I mean it's been really great for House of the Dragon but it went up like another 4 or 5% with this episode. So it's climbing and I love it. I'm glad everyone's digging it so.

[02:40:07] Alright thank you again Wendy so much for joining me tonight. I so appreciate it. Alright that's our show. Thanks for listening everyone. Until next time I'm Wendy. And I'm Reema. Dracarys.