6: "We Light the Way" (S1E5)

[00:00:00] Hey everybody, I'm Kristen and I'm Reema and this is Dragon Cast, a podcast dedicated to the House of the Dragon. This week we are covering season one episode five titled We Light the Way. And yes, we do.

[00:00:31] We will light your way this week and tell you all about what we think about what happened this week. Holy cow. So much happened, but I'm so happy that you're back. Yes, I'm back. So you can light the way with me. Yes, I will.

[00:00:48] I'm so sorry to everybody. I don't know if Reema told anybody because I have been in a COVID induced fog for the last week, week and a half. So I did not get a chance to listen to last week's episode, but I got COVID after my cousin's

[00:01:11] super-spreader wedding. Bummer. This is just a small 230 person gathering and it's been a wild ride. So I missed two weeks ago because of this wedding and that was already planned. But then what I did not plan for was the COVID and the COVID hit me hard.

[00:01:32] So I'm really glad to be back. I broke three fevers. We just, you know, everybody in my camper has tested negative now. We went to DC yesterday, which was really amazing. We really enjoyed that. And we're just happy to be back. Happy to be back.

[00:01:59] Full throttle as much as we can be. I'm still getting really dizzy and cognitive function is still not 100%. So I might lose some words today. It's been happening to me the past week. So if I do, I apologize.

[00:02:12] But oh, and we are on a farm tonight in the middle of Pennsylvania. So we do have all the windows open because we have no power source. So if you hear outside noises at all, it's probably the family of pigs that is about

[00:02:33] 20 feet away from me or the three llamas. There's also three llamas that are about 10 feet away from me. So maybe they'll make an appearance. It's OK. It's it's nature. You can pretend you're on a king's hunt.

[00:02:48] I am except this time I'm going to do it better than the series. That wouldn't be hard. It would not be hard. No, no, he does hunting just like he does kinging, I think. Yeah. Indeed.

[00:03:04] But I have been enjoying the show, especially the last the last two weeks have been really good this week. I definitely have some opinions about this week that we'll get into a little

[00:03:17] bit later, but I would probably say it's not my favorite episode so far of the season. Really? Yeah, yeah. I can't wait to find out why. I still really liked it, but I just think that they've been so strong this whole

[00:03:31] this whole season and I don't know, this season, like when it turned this episode when I when I turn it off, I looked at Dave and I was like, not my favorite. And he's like, really? And I go, yeah, I don't know why you yet though. So interesting.

[00:03:45] Well, I can't wait to dive into that with you and find out why because I really enjoyed this week's episode. There there's a few things I think they could have done a little differently. I do think there were a few moments that was a little fast,

[00:04:07] but for the most part, I think it was great. And I honestly, I think for me, this show just keeps getting better and better. You know, the the costuming production design, it's so detailed. And, you know, we've talked about it several times, you know, Fire and Blood,

[00:04:28] the book that the show is based on, it's filled with ambiguity and all these misdirections. And the show for me is really filling in the blanks. I think doing a fabulous job with that because there's, you know,

[00:04:42] so little to go off of when you're reading, you're like, Oh my gosh, I wish they'd tell me more. The show is giving me more. And so I'm absolutely loving that. So I really enjoyed this episode. But I know that there are a lot of opinions out there

[00:04:57] and I can't wait to hear yours. Well, not to say that I didn't like it, right? Because I did. I still very much enjoy it. This just hasn't been my favorite of the season. Yeah. But I do have like, you had like, like,

[00:05:11] especially one aha moment today while I was typing up my notes because I went through, you know, typing up the notes, second watch. And my notes actually read like a journal entry at one point because usually I just jump and I'm like, wait a minute.

[00:05:23] So if this happened and this happened, did this really happen? Did this really happen? So like I have like running commentary, which I never have running commentary on my notes. So that was kind of fun. That's awesome. Yeah. That is awesome.

[00:05:35] But for those of you who don't know this is season one, episode five. We light the way. Brief synopsis of the episode from HBO is Damon visits his wife in the veil. Miss Saris and Reneira broker agreements with the Valerians. And Allison seeks the truth about princesses.

[00:05:56] It's a very vanilla description of what really happened over that hour. Yeah, a little bit. A little bit. Oh my gosh. So I'm really glad that you like the episode. How are you? How, you know, the past two weeks have been good. Yeah, same on the shelf.

[00:06:18] Yeah, I think so. We're getting through it. Good. I'm sure it was wonderful in every way. I mean, we just do what we do, right? Show must go on. But happy, happy that you're back and, you know, I'm excited to really talk this one out.

[00:06:36] Me too. Me too. And maybe at the end we'll have, you know, better clarity and opinions on my on my end, at least. We'll see. We'll see. All right. Well, why don't you kick us off this week? OK, it is your return after a few weeks hiatus.

[00:06:56] Yes, ma'am. So I want to start off by talking about this aha moment I had because I really want to kind of flesh it out. And it comes actually from a news article that Dave sent me.

[00:07:08] He sent it to me last night and I woke up this morning. I read the article, then I went down like, you know, a little rabbit trail for a little bit. And then I watched the episode with that article in mind. And the article is basically.

[00:07:23] But the article basically is talking about this theory that I thought that I knew Game of Thrones really, really well. I thought that that was that's kind of like my thing is Game of Thrones. And apparently I had no idea there's this

[00:07:41] theory that has been long kind of thought of that the maesters tried to poison and kill the Targaryens over hundreds of years because of their importance of magic and they didn't want magic in the realm. And so their their strategy was to slowly poison

[00:08:09] or make the Targaryen kings and royalties sick on purpose so that they would die off. Have you ever heard that before? I can't say that I have. If I've if I've read it, I've forgotten it because I feel like

[00:08:26] there's a lot of information in the world of Westeros in history. So I don't recall that. So this article. So this article came from Nerdist and it said, House of the Dragon is hinting at the truth of a major maester theory.

[00:08:40] And so it talks about Otto High Tower telling his daughter, Queen Allison, that her husband won't live much longer. It then ended with Grand Maester Melos telling or giving Aileen King Viserys subpar care. Those two bookends combined with some curious moments earlier in the season

[00:08:57] make it impossible not to suspect a sinister scheme that might be afoot against House Targaryen. And if there is, that could mean that the Grand Maester conspiracy, a major song in ice and fire theory is absolutely true.

[00:09:11] So the Grand Master's conspiracies name comes from readers of George R. Martin's novels, but the longstanding theory, which says maesters of the Citadel both spy on the families of Westeros for their own benefit and secretly undermine all forms of magic comes from Martin's characters.

[00:09:26] So the article goes on a little bit, but there's this lady Barbary and she suspects that the maesters share sensitive information among themselves and that they have a lot to share. They're privy to every family's greatest secrets. They're all keepers of the realm's messenger Ravens.

[00:09:44] And that's why she calls those figures clad in robes and chains gray rats. So I'm thinking about that and I'm thinking about Otto High Tower is kind of tied to Old Town and being the keeper of Old Town and for the Lord of Old Town.

[00:10:06] And as I think about this, I think we don't know that Viserys sent the tea over to Renear that night. For all we know, it was Otto High Tower that sent the tea over and then put it in somebody's ear that it was Viserys

[00:10:26] that asked for the tea to be sent over because that is don't know that Viserys would do that. We don't know that you would have the forethought to do that. You know, you would just think everything's fine and he can go to bed.

[00:10:38] We see that there's another maester that is trying to give Maester mellows a different way of treating King Viserys with an herb salve on some cloths instead of the leeches that the Grand Maester has been using and he tells him, no, the leeches are fine.

[00:11:00] King Viserys likes the leeches. OK, when we see that it's not making him better, he's getting worse with every episode. He's getting sicker with every single episode. And then at the very end of the episode, the last shot

[00:11:14] or one of the last shots of the episode is a gray rat coming into the party and licking up Joffrey's blood. So yeah, it makes me think how much of this has had this Viserys really know that's actually going on.

[00:11:32] So one of my questions is, is did Viserys bring the tea through the Grand Maester or was it Frotto to plant the seeds of doubt and have one last undermining before heading back to Old Town? And those scenes now become a little bit more.

[00:11:52] Attention grabbing mainly because I'm looking at it going. We never saw if you don't. One rule that you know in Game of Thrones is if you don't see it, it didn't happen. If you didn't see that person die, they didn't die.

[00:12:05] If you didn't see that person die, right? We didn't see the scene where Viserys said, send Reneira this tea, you know, just in case. And then Otto plants the seed in Allyson's mind to start questioning Reneira and Viserys. She never asks her husband about this tea.

[00:12:24] She just goes on whatever Otto says. And then she has that weird cryptic conversation with Larry's I can't be his name. All. Larris, Larris, Larris. There it is. There's the club foot, right? And he's manipulating Alice in as well.

[00:12:41] So he has some kind of weird end game and he has a very like little finger varies. Think like era to me, like he kind of wants to be like this guy who has the whispers and the secrets, but he also seems to be super slimy.

[00:12:57] And he has like some kind of grand plan, but not even his brother seems to know what he's doing. But it all goes through Allyson. And then there was another point or we're going to go over a lot of this later.

[00:13:12] But what do you think about that so far? I think it's an interesting theory that I'm just now hearing about and trying to wrap my brain around. So is it? Do you are you saying that this this theory, anyway,

[00:13:31] is it the maesters themselves or is it the high towers kind of over because the citadel is an old town? And I, again, because I'm still trying to like learn and really figure it all out. I know that they're the high towers are the lords of old town.

[00:13:50] And but I mean, aren't wouldn't the wouldn't the maesters be considered almost like a separate order or can they actually be commanded to do what the high tower say? Are you saying that the maesters are acting of their own accord

[00:14:03] against the Targaryens and trying to like poison them because of their use of magic and that doesn't go with their their beliefs? Or is it the high towers that are telling the maesters you need to like get rid of the kinks?

[00:14:18] Because if that was the case, what about Aegon, Allison's, you know, she has Targaryen children. What about them? So is it is it just acting against like the Ceres in in Otto's own interest to put his his grandchildren or grandchild on the throne?

[00:14:39] I guess I'm not clear on that. Yeah, so that's a really good question. And I think that it might be a combination of both. I think that if we are looking at if we're looking at the maesters and high towers as as separate entities,

[00:14:57] you know, because who knows how long this has been going on. Right? There's a whole long and I'd be interested to talk to Renny about this later to see because she knows the book a lot better than you and I do

[00:15:10] and see what she thinks of this and knowing Renny, she knows this theory and probably has thoughts about it already. Yep. So we could put a pin in that for now if you want, but could be a combination of both

[00:15:22] just because the high towers and and the maesters are in the same spot. And it could be that there's this conspiracy, maybe, because maybe the high towers want, you know, to be on the throne. And maybe the maesters want the high towers to be on the throne

[00:15:40] because that puts them closer to power as well. I mean, we know from what you've said, I mean, we know from watching the original Game of Thrones series that Grand Maester Picell was a worm. You know, he was he was a trash human being.

[00:15:57] And now we're seeing this Grand Maester Melos, who seems to not be giving the king very good care and hasn't this entire time. I mean, he's chopped off two of his fingers already. The leeches aren't working. They're not giving him relief. So what is he?

[00:16:12] What is he even talking about here? Well, and I and I and I see that. But the other side of that, if I could argue, could also just be, you know, he's he's the Grand Maester and maybe set in his ways.

[00:16:27] And he sees this maester or while as some young upstart here to, you know, oh, well, what do you know? You're just a young maester. I've been treating the king for years. How dare you question my treatment? You know, kind of how I think some not all.

[00:16:46] So don't don't add me. But you know, some doctors can kind of get set in their old ways, set in the older treatments that are not looking for new innovative type treatments. I'm thinking of like modern day, right?

[00:16:57] That, you know, they're a little resistant to like the newer methods of maybe treating illnesses and things. And they're kind of stuck on in the more older ways that they're more familiar with. And they kind of that's that's how I kind of took it was like, you know,

[00:17:13] don't question me. I've been here for years, boy. You know, I can see that too. But I mean, that I think that, you know, I see I see both. I think that could certainly be a possibility with this theory that, you know, that you're talking about.

[00:17:29] I hadn't even considered it because I wasn't even aware of it until now. But, you know, when you say that, it's like, I mean, yeah, I could I could totally see that. Like, don't question me. I've got this covered, you know, I've got a plan here.

[00:17:40] You know, I'm on a mission. And I will and I think that, you know, I've talked a lot about it this whole season that I do think Otto has ulterior motives. I mean, I think that that's very obvious that he does.

[00:17:56] I don't think that he's this, you know, in watching the inside the episode after this week's episode, he's like, he really he's, you know, he has a chance to be vulnerable here. And he really wants to like get through to Allison because he's scared for her.

[00:18:10] I don't think that that's true for one second. I think that he has a plan and he was foiled mid-plan. And now he's trying to get his plan to keep going by using his daughter by giving her like these last few sentences to like keep it going.

[00:18:27] And he probably got Larry's to be involved somehow. Interesting. I just, I don't think that he's this father who is, you know, adoting father on his daughter when he basically horded her out to the king right after the Queen's death.

[00:18:44] Yeah, I don't doubt that there's probably more to Otto Hightower. I think he probably has some affection towards his daughter, but I do think he's got ulterior motives. He's I do think he was manipulating his way kind of like what

[00:18:59] Viserys was accusing him of when he fired him. You know, I think he's been manipulating, you know, all along. And I don't think that it has anything to do with the kingdom's best interests or anything like that.

[00:19:14] I think he was definitely furthering his own and his family's, you know, best interest. Agreed. Wow, what? That was a lot. That was heavy. Yeah, I just wanted to get that out right away because I just,

[00:19:28] it's been on my mind and I'm just like, I just want to talk about this right now. That's all good. No, it's all good stuff. Oh gosh, I've got stuff to chew on and I need to do some more reading now

[00:19:40] because I've never, I'd love it if somebody wants to like weigh in on this, like leave us a voicemail or write us an email and whatever you want. But I'd love to hear somebody else's take on this.

[00:19:52] Maybe you have information that I don't or maybe your mind was as blown as my mind was blown this morning and we can all just, you know, sit here with our blown minds and be like, well, I have to watch every episode

[00:20:04] now from the very beginning right now. Yeah, it could certainly make you see things in a different light for sure. Gosh, so many possibilities. Well, I want to start off with We Light the Way as we were talking earlier with the title of the episode.

[00:20:22] So We Light the Way is the house motto for the high towers. That is, that's their motto. I kind of like we got the whole, you know, winter is coming and, you know, you've got all the house, house logos or mottos, not logos, but motto. Sorry.

[00:20:39] This one is for the high towers. And I just want to go straight to the moment of Allison making her entrance while the king is making his speech. That was a moment and I sat there and I'm like, did she wait off to the side?

[00:20:56] Like, was she waiting in the wings there, you know, until he started his speech for that exact moment? He had to have, right? I mean, she was looking to make a statement and I'm like, was she waiting?

[00:21:08] Because, you know, the king asked when they were getting ready to start. He's like, where is the queen? Oh, well, she must be still be getting ready. And I'm thinking, she's sitting over there waiting for this moment so she can

[00:21:21] leave it to Jason Lannister to be a complete douche about it. Of course. Yeah. There's one in every crowd and he's still, he's still proving the Lannister name, you know, as it is and as we know it. Yes, he is. But it's entertaining though, entertaining.

[00:21:38] But Allison shows up in this green dress and this is important. And this is one way where I think that they did kind of rush this just a little bit. I know we're going to talk more in detail in book talks, so I encourage anyone,

[00:21:56] you know, if you either want to hear differences or even book spoilers, stick around for book talk because this will come up. But this is important. It will be the main subject for a while. I'm just giving you a little, a little hot take. It's important.

[00:22:16] So and then they do point it out and I think that's one thing that I think that was maybe kind of rush is that they felt the need to kind of tell us why when we had Laris strong say to his brother, you know, when the high towers

[00:22:33] light the beam, the green or the flame is green, calling their bannerman, you know, to arms. And so it's like why is Allison doing this? Why does she feel the need to do this again? I think she's calling the banners to war.

[00:22:52] I'm very curious to what everyone's opinions are. I know as book readers, you know, this was a big moment for a lot of us that we know what this means. But, you know, we got we've gotten a lot over the last couple of episodes.

[00:23:05] Allison, she's lonely and she's trying to fulfill her duty, right? She's now the queen and she's providing these errors as is her duty. There's a lot of pressure on her. And in that conversation with her father there in the beginning as

[00:23:19] it's pouring rain, you know, he's telling her, you have to either bend the knee or Renea is going to kill your children. You know, I mean, can you imagine the position that that puts her in? That's also such a bullshit statement.

[00:23:40] I really don't think that that was going to be the deal. I don't think that Renea was going to sit there and be like, I'm going to kill your children because I'm going out. Like, I mean, I'm like, I don't I understand why he says it.

[00:23:55] But it's like, well, why? Why does she have to? If she if her father declares her his heir, then there shouldn't be any need for it. And this is where I mean, I'll talk more about the series later,

[00:24:08] but this is definitely includes one of his many failings as king. But this is, you know, but Allison is still young. I know she's married and she has children now, but she is still very young and impressionable. Her father definitely like it's just them two,

[00:24:27] you know, and he is definitely able to get through to her and manipulate her. So this she believes this, you know, in this moment, you know, she's really scared to think this that, you know, if I don't if I don't do something, this is what's going to happen.

[00:24:43] But even then she was still team Renea, you know, in this one, she was still defending her. And well, that was her family, her husband and her best friend. And really, I mean, I don't want to say stepdaughter and it was weird that she called her stepdaughter.

[00:25:02] But yeah, I'm sorry to keep going. No, no, you're fine. But, you know, her father is manipulating her. I think he's lying to her again. I think that was pretty overboard. I don't think it was necessary to say or believe that that's what

[00:25:17] Renea is going to do once she takes the throne that those children are a threat to her. And then you have Laris, who's also planting these little seeds of doubt about, you know, what happened and with the tea.

[00:25:35] And it builds up to this moment, you know, where Allison breaks out this green dress. And it's a total slap in the face to the king, you know, because he here is he's having this speech. They're in the middle of this feast.

[00:25:55] And after her conversation with Sir Kristen Cole, which again, we'll get to that too. I know that's one of my points. But after that conversation, she realizes that she has been lied to and she feels betrayed.

[00:26:09] And I understand her anger, you know, when it comes to this moment. How's she been lied to? Well, well, I think her father might have been a little untruthful, a little with her. I'm saying I don't think Renea lied to her. She never had sex with Beaman.

[00:26:34] That's what she was being accused of. Yeah. You know, I guess it depends on perspective. She said he never touched me. And there was there was a little different. Yeah. Well, I guess it's there was a lot of handsy stuff.

[00:26:53] So did they actually have sex that they were being accused of? No. But for when she's like, he didn't touch me. I'm like, well, I mean, what are you talking about exactly? If you are talking about sex, no, you guys didn't have sex, but there was definitely

[00:27:08] a lot of touching and you were there at that moment nearly, nearly getting. But isn't that the scandal though? Is if she's been sullied, if she's been her maiden head has been taken, right?

[00:27:25] Like, I mean, and I love the argument last week because I didn't get to talk about this. I loved the argument last week that Renea made to her father by saying, if I was a man, this wouldn't even be an issue.

[00:27:39] I could go down the sleep bottom and have sex with anybody and nobody would bat an eye. But because I'm a woman, this is now I'm ruined. And I just love that that line and that exchange was there because as progressive as

[00:27:53] Viserys thinks that he is, he is not. Because if somebody came to him with this, he could have just been like, you know what? Screw you. She's not ruined. She's going to be the queen. She can do whatever she wants. Go away. Right. So different times.

[00:28:08] I don't know. Well, it is different times, but at the same time he's made a big proclamation by saying, my daughter is my heir. She will be the queen. She will be the first queen of Westeros.

[00:28:22] So if you're going to be progressive as to give that person a woman, you know, that power of, you know, protector of the realm and the queen of the andals and the roiners and the whatever is in the blah, blah, blah, blah, the whole nine yards title.

[00:28:37] Then they should also have the same standards that a man king, a man king, that a king also gets the benefits. Right. And again, this is me not having the right words in this moment, but I apologize for the background noise right now.

[00:28:57] It's feeding time at the farm. So there's a lot of activity around feeding the animals when I digress. So I just love that the double standard, we know that the double standard is there. We talk about it week to week.

[00:29:12] We still talk about it to this day about the double standard between men and women. It's one of, I know you and I, it's something that you and I feel very strongly about personally, but I loved that the conversation was thrown back in Viserys' face last week.

[00:29:27] And I think that the same thing is also happening here again. You know, like you asked if I had sex with Damon. No, I didn't. Next. Yes. And she did not offer up the information about what happened with Sir Kristen Cole.

[00:29:46] And I mean, I think I understand why Reneira wouldn't tell her after, I don't know that Reneira, even though they started to become a little closer after their little moment when it was revealed that Viserys was going to marry Allison. And she felt betrayed in that moment.

[00:30:04] I think Reneira still feels that betrayal just a little bit. Maybe she doesn't fully trust Allison to, doesn't trust her with that information to say, you know what? I didn't have sex with Damon, but hey, I had sex with Kristen Cole.

[00:30:16] You know, I don't think she trusted her. I'm not gonna tell you it was good. I didn't hate it, you know. But I don't think she trusted her with that information. So no, she didn't lie to her, but you know, she wasn't fully truthful either.

[00:30:32] And I mean, in today's times, she doesn't have to be. And I don't know that she had to be with Allison there either. But and it's fine that at least I think if you're going to give a female the same power,

[00:30:48] you know, as a queen and name her as air as you would your male air, and he have all those powers as a king and nobody cares what the king does. The king can have as many mistresses as he wants.

[00:30:59] He can father as many bastards and we're not gonna talk about it, but we know what happens. You know, then yeah, the same should be for a woman, but and even if Viserys was king enough

[00:31:12] to stand up and say that like trying to squash those rumors, leave it be, which he did end up doing here. But the thing is, is that it who who's going to want to marry her?

[00:31:26] Even if he could say it doesn't matter what she does, she's allowed the same freedoms as a king. Who what house is going to put forth their their noblemen their, you know,

[00:31:38] high high houses that is worthy enough for a princess or a future queen who would marry her. It's she has to, you know, in her station marry someone at a certain rank.

[00:31:55] And I mean, that's that's the thing, you know, you can squash the rumors all you want and say it's fine because she's going to be queen and she's going to have the same powers as a king. But who's who would marry her?

[00:32:07] And that's their, I think one of their biggest things. So I see, I see that I do. But at the same time, she is about to be queen queen. Who would want to marry her? I would say everybody.

[00:32:24] I mean, yeah, maybe. I mean, whoever is her king, you know, I mean, he's definitely going to have, you know, the power but, you know, I feel like I mean, I see that I'm just arguing for the sake of arguing, I think I'm not even sure.

[00:32:40] Me too. And I love this. Yeah, I know. I don't even care. I love it because it doesn't matter, right? Okay, that's honestly because I'm like, let her have, let her have screw whatever she wants to. You go, she's right.

[00:32:51] You guys having a hot girl summer and I'm all about it. That's so. But that's the give and take, right? That's a give and take. That's like, oh, who would want her now? She's going to be queen. Everybody's going to want her,

[00:33:03] you know, like let's, let's just put all this tradition and pop and circumstance aside. She going to be queen. That's true. I don't know. I just, I see that and I'm like, you know, she still had a long line of suitors.

[00:33:18] She still is going all over the place and people were like giving away, you know, kingdoms and favors and whatnot to, to be her or king, even Jason Lannister who showed up, you know, in his duchy way that he did. He still like, he still had that lovely,

[00:33:38] wonderful, like I was laughing so hard scowl when Rangloneer is like, yes, Lenor is a very good match. I couldn't have thought of a better match myself. Jason, you know, having been scorned or scoffed off or whatever, right? That didn't break seriously.

[00:33:56] Previously, he's just like, mm-hmm. Yes, of course. And she's not winning a lot of friends. That's for sure. Well, and that's the other thing. That's the other double standard, right? Like, the men can be as terrible as they want, but she has to be a certain way.

[00:34:16] Like she's, she's just saying and doing the same thing that a king would do, except she has boobs. Yeah. I know. Yeah. So, you know, I applaud Rangloneer. I applaud her for, you know, remaining fierce and remaining her own person and wanting, you know,

[00:34:35] what she wants as a king would want what they want. Now, I don't really think that a king and a queen should get whatever they want, but in this world, that's the norm. That's

[00:34:47] what happened. So, you know, I love the fact that she is taking her stand and she's making her point and making herself note, you know? Like, Allison, it took her years to show up in that

[00:35:00] green dress. That was, that was her moment. I love that we started this off with Allison, and now we're just talking about Rangloneer. Well, there's, you know, they go hand in hand those to you. So, what's, what's your next point?

[00:35:16] My next point. That was awesome, by the way. I really enjoyed that discussion. I have so much that I want to talk about. So let me just look over here. I want my, I want to talk about my favorite scene in the entire episode. And that is

[00:35:35] the scene between Corleys and Corliss, Corleys, Corliss, Corliss. The scene between Corliss and Rhaenys. Because I think that there are so many different, different levels and different nuances in that entire scene. Like, first of all, can we just take a moment and just love the fact

[00:35:58] that these two are equals? I love them. They're my new favorite power couple. She burst into the throne room of Hytide, and he doesn't even bat an eye. It is not in the front. It is. His

[00:36:13] wife is coming in, and he loves that she sits on the edge of his throne as they're talking. And she's very comfortable there. It's not a power move. It's just she's going to go sit down.

[00:36:24] You know, she commands that relationship as much as he commands that relationship. And as somebody on Reddit, not too long ago, I was looking over some things because I'm addicted to Reddit.

[00:36:40] I mentioned the fact that they are like the Game of Thrones or House of the Dragon version, the Westeros version of Morticia and Gomez Adams. Oh, I hadn't seen that. And I really, really enjoyed that comparison. I just, because they're so loving, like they're having this

[00:37:00] really intense discussion about the future of their son and the future of their family. It's a very serious discussion. And they're wrapped up in each other's arms, and they're touching each

[00:37:10] other's faces. And it's so obvious how much they care for each other. And you don't see that in this world very often. And it's wonderful because they're both smart as a whip, and they're both

[00:37:26] equally fierce. And they both understand each other's and their own agendas, and they're one in the same. You just don't see that a lot. You know, Coralus has this blindside in him. He wants power. We know this. You know, you know, Coralus' backstory, you know, the man has

[00:37:52] everything that he's done his entire life has been for power, more and more and more and more power. He's very ambitious. Yeah. Very ambitious. He marries Rhaenys, and he goes all feminist,

[00:38:03] you know, on the fact that she was passed over for Queen. But how much of that is what he wants for his wife, and what he wants for his family and for himself? Because with him as King

[00:38:17] Consort, right, he could even try and say instead of Targaryen, let's have you be Valyrian, right? And then we'll start the Valyrian dynasty as it were. I love it. I love the way that they say

[00:38:29] dynasty instead of dynasty. Three two. You know, which is exactly mirrors the conversation that he had with Vacerys in his throne room, you know, in that entire scene like right before Rhaenys and Coralus' scene. So, you know, I love the fact that he is this progressive thinking,

[00:38:58] forward thinking feminist for his wife. But in the same breath, he's like, oh, Lainer's not gay. He's just going to grow out of that, you know? Like, he's going to be King Consort,

[00:39:13] it's going to be fine, you know, like so he's fine with not seeing his son as, you know, as a homosexual and making sure that he gets to be King Consort, right? But he's not fine

[00:39:27] with his wife being passed over for Queen, you know, and making him King Consort, you know, so how much of that is him being progressive and how much of that is him being ambitious? You know? And so I really question that on my second watch. The first

[00:39:44] watch, I just sat there, I was like, I love these two. I think that they're so great together and I love the fact that they're on the same page with each other. But then you watch it a

[00:39:52] second time with kind of a more critical eye. And I see that his ambition blinds him when he wants to be blinded and it makes him progressive when he wants to be progressive.

[00:40:07] So I don't know if he's really progressive or if he's just his ambition just gets in the way. But what's great is that Rhaeny sees that and she's able to reel him in, you know? She's able

[00:40:21] to say, I have put this to the past. I don't care about not being Queen. What I care about is the fact that Rhaenyra is going to be Queen. This is going to come to blows and our son,

[00:40:34] who is gay, is going to get caught in the middle here. And she has no and so she's trying to bring him down to earth a little bit. And they have this beautiful balance that's almost like a dance

[00:40:51] and anytime that they're in a scene together, I'm just automatically focused in on them because I think that they're the best couple in the entire show, in my opinion. What do you think?

[00:41:02] Yeah. Oh yeah, I agree. So far from what I've seen anyway, one of my favorite couples for sure. And I think it's a mixture of both and that's my opinion. Anyway, I know Corleys' history

[00:41:18] and knowing what happens later in the books, I think his ambition is a big driving point for him. So I think that is true. But I do truly believe he has a real affection for Rhaenys. It's not just

[00:41:34] there seems to be more of a love match than we normally see. Then just a political 100%. And I know that just like there's so few, especially because she was in the Targaryen family,

[00:41:50] she was part of the royal family at one time could have been considered as an heir. So she was a powerful person in the family. So she would have been asked to marry well. We're going to

[00:42:03] find someone for you that's a good match politically, right? Just like everyone else. And rarely does that come to be a love match in this world. It's usually just tolerating each other. We're friends or something, or we have an agreement or something. So I do think that

[00:42:19] there's a genuine affection between them. I think it is more of a love match. I do, I just got this feeling from him though when he was talking about how she had been passed

[00:42:29] over. That looked to be a genuine slight to him. Not just to him but to her. Because of it was a slight to her that hurt him. And that to me felt more of his caring for her,

[00:42:47] not just his ambition. So I think it's both. But I saw something in that moment that wasn't just all about his ambition. I think it was because of how his wife was treated. And I was like,

[00:43:00] go Coralus, supporting his wife. That is not seen in this world very often. So I loved it. Yeah. And I agree with what you're saying. I think there's obviously love. And if I didn't portray that in what I was saying, then yes, there's obviously love between them because

[00:43:21] I completely agree there. I just think also that when his ambition seems to take over, like his green monster, green eyed monster seems to take over, Rhaenys knows how to reel that in.

[00:43:33] Oh yeah. And I agree. And I love that because I think he does need reeling in, like big time. He does. No, you're right. He seemed to go over the edge a little bit as far as asking for more or just think of all these things.

[00:43:54] And she's like, well, let's take a moment. I think she came into that throne room because she knew that Coralus had slided the king by not meeting him outside of the gates.

[00:44:10] And she went to defuse that. Got to at least mention that. I know I had that in a note somewhere. It wasn't going to be a big point, but just to at least mention because

[00:44:19] yeah, that was, I don't know what Coralus, well, and Rhaenys is responsible for that too, to a point. She's as much the head of the household as much as what Coralus is and to disrespect the king, to not show up. And look, going back to Game of Thrones,

[00:44:42] and again hopefully this doesn't spoil anything for anyone. I hope everyone has watched the show, but what was it in episode one or two at least when the king showed up there at Winterfell? And you had this huge display like the entire

[00:44:59] household. Everybody's getting haircuts, right? Everybody's getting haircuts. Everybody's getting bathed. It's a big deal. The entire Winterfell folk all showed up when the king and his party arrived. So this is what's to be expected. You lay it all out there for the king when he arrives,

[00:45:19] and then to open up the gates and there was no one except for Lainar and his, and Joffrey, his lover, sword fighting. That was such an insult. And acting like they didn't even know that he was coming. Like you're on an island. You saw the ship coming.

[00:45:38] Well, and surely a crow was sent, right? Or a raven was sent. Right, right, right. Right, we're coming even with the days or two notice. I mean, I know that they're fairly close. I think

[00:45:52] oh, Hi-Tide I think is close to Dragon Stones. It's not that far from King's Landing. It's very close to Dragon Stone. Yeah, it's very close to Dragon Stone. So it's not that far. It sounds like a day or two by ship or something is what it sounded

[00:46:09] like later in the episode. Someone mentioned that the ship left the day before or something like that. So it doesn't sound like it was a long trip. So you could have sent a raven

[00:46:20] in advance, which I'm sure they did. And I don't know. I'm not sure what that was about. I don't know if that was a power move or something on, or at least as part, but yeah, pretty disrespectful I think. And again, another example of where King Viserys

[00:46:36] just let it go and didn't make a big deal of it. And again, not showing his... Yeah, you know what? You're right. He didn't make a big deal of it. He's a very patient man.

[00:46:49] Yeah, he's an incredibly patient man. I mean, was it last week where he held his dagger up to Daven's neck? Who was last week, right? That's the most visceral we've ever seen him.

[00:47:05] And it was awesome. It was awesome, but it was also in private, which is unfortunate because more people need to see that than that he has that side to him because he's too

[00:47:18] wishy-washy all the time. Yeah, you know, I just as an aside, I did not... I don't like the fact that he's not a dragonrider, but I also don't like the fact that Ramira didn't show up on her dragon. It would have been super cool. Yeah.

[00:47:37] Well, especially since when the Valyrians showed up to the wedding feast, they came on their dragons. Yeah, I don't know. I also just want more dragons. I also would love to have more

[00:47:51] dragons. So I would not have been mad about that. Not at all. So that was me. What was... What is your next point? Well, it's kind of quick and it's mostly about Ramira and

[00:48:09] Lenore. So they have this conversation down by the beach, which I loved. We find out Ramira is an ally. Yes, she is. Go girl. Yeah, I love that. They did however add a new spin to the DuckDuck

[00:48:27] Goose game was not expecting that. But I thought it was very forward thinking of Ramira to be like, hey, you have your taste in desires. I have mine. Our marriage is for duty. You do what

[00:48:43] you want. I'll do it. I want... And she was totally fine with that and had proposed to Lenore of having an open marriage. And I thought, well, damn. I like this. And he seemed agreeable.

[00:49:02] He's like, hey, okay. It was like his lover, Joffrey told him, this is the best we could have hoped for. Like, look, Lenore Valarion is from a very high powerful family. He's going to

[00:49:18] marry eventually. He's going to be expected to marry and carry on the line. So he's going to have to at one point or another fulfill his duty. What better way than to be married to the

[00:49:30] queen who also happens to understand that you have different tastes and that she's okay with that. And he's going to be able to continue with her blessing, this relationship. Or I don't know if

[00:49:45] she knows of his one relationship, but she knows that he isn't interested in women and she's totally fine with that. But the sad part of that... So I thought that was really nice. I like seeing

[00:50:00] for them on the beach. But then it unfortunately ended, sadly, with the wedding itself, so freaking sad that they ended up having to have that wedding. I mean, just it felt like minutes after the whole battle. It wasn't even a battle. What do I even say?

[00:50:22] It was a drunken bar fight. Yeah. That's a good way to put it. So after all of this, and he loses his lover and it was so sad to see him lying on the floor or after the crowd had dispersed, crying over his dead lover. And then,

[00:50:41] Viserys is just like before one more f-ed up thing can happen. We're getting this wedding done and the blood wasn't even dry on the floor yet and he's getting them married. I mean,

[00:50:53] the poor guy couldn't even take a day. The blood was still coming out of his nose. Yeah. Viserys, he's all messed up too. Oh no, I mean Lenor. Lenor. He was still like,

[00:51:06] he's still had a bloody nose. I forgot he had gotten punched too. Yes, he was still crying, he still had a bloody nose, Reneer's hair is all a mess. You know, Kristen Cole for punching

[00:51:18] Lenor the way that he did, that should have gotten him kicked off the Kingsguard immediately. Immediately. Yeah, I mean it was shocking what he did to Joffrey and then yes, to completely manhandle

[00:51:32] Lenor as well. I'm like dude, you know. But he was asking for it honestly. I think he was asking for that. That's what he wanted. But anyway, that was my main point, it was just Reneer and Lenor getting a little bit of insight into their relationship and their

[00:51:54] agreement that they had. And I'm sure we'll talk about that some more as it involves other people and their thoughts about that and what led to this moment there in the middle of the throne room.

[00:52:06] But I like that, I like those two together. I do, I am the same way. I love the fact that they were very, they were like kind of besties almost. You know, like my betrothed, my betrothed,

[00:52:23] you know, and they're like, you know, kind of dancing and they look, they look really happy. They look happy with their arrangement. They look like, okay, yeah, we can do this. We can

[00:52:32] totally do this, you know, and that was going to be an amazing match. And maybe that's what scared Otto, maybe that's what scared Allison, maybe that's what scared everybody. And so

[00:52:45] it was like time to screw it all up. It was time to make sure that that was never going to be as good as the Targaryens and the Valyrians intended it for it to be, right? That's me

[00:52:58] in my tinfoil hat, right? That's me saying, you know, we're not going to stand for this. This is entirely too positive for these two families. And we must strike it down immediately. Yeah, maybe. Great point. I loved it. Oh, cool. Thanks. What's your next point?

[00:53:21] Daemon's entrance, man. Daemon's entrance. Jesus. Stretz and the King landing like I've got exiled. I haven't been banished. Hey, man, what's up? Newly single DTF. How you doing?

[00:53:37] Just a frickin, just I love him so much, you know, the chaos. I'm so here for it. I'm just here for it. Yeah, Stretz in like nothing. Like, like you said, what? I got exiled the other day. Oh,

[00:53:54] nope, it's all good. Just killed my lady wife. I'm good to go. Who wants it? Wait, no, my inheritance to come in. That was the best conversation because Gerald comes up and he's

[00:54:07] just like, I accuse, you know? I mean, he was just like, he's ready to make a stand. And he's like, oh, are you confessing this something? He's like, no, no, I accuse you. You know? And it was just,

[00:54:22] it was wonderful to see this back and forth. He goes, you know what? I'm so glad that you came because I wanted to talk about my inheritance. He's like, what? It was just the best.

[00:54:33] Seriously, that whole conversation, Damon never broke a sweat the whole time. He was smiling. He's like, you know, fiddling something in his hand. I mean, he walked into that wedding feast

[00:54:47] just the star of the show, the bell of the ball. He sits down a chair is brought for him. The series doesn't say anything. Reneeran doesn't say anything. Gerald's like, I'm going to say something

[00:55:01] and then, you know, that backfires. And then, you know, Lena sees him and is like, I like you, you know? And like, it just, Damon's entire presence at this wedding feast was fantastic.

[00:55:15] And then, oof, where did he go? Right. Where the hell did he go? Because the last we saw was him and Reneerah, you know, having their moment in the middle of everything. And then this

[00:55:30] fight breaks out. Kristen Cole goes berserk. And yeah, poof, he was gone. Where the hell did he go? What's he been up to? It's not like Damon to not be in on, you know, more chaos, right? I feel

[00:55:43] like he's always right in the middle of that. So yeah, I don't know where the hell he went to. We didn't see him after that. I don't remember seeing him at the wedding, right? I mean, it was just the parents and so the septum and Lenore and Reneerah.

[00:56:02] No, yeah, you, oh no, he wasn't, he wasn't at the wedding. So maybe I'm wrong, but hear me out on this. What if, this is a total what if moment because we didn't see it.

[00:56:14] What if Kristen Cole, Sarah Kristen, saw Damon getting kind of fresh with Reneerah and he goes in like this blind rage and he sees Joffrey. Maybe Joffrey tries to get in the way or something

[00:56:31] and he beats Joffrey to death as a result. I mean, that's a possibility. I do think that that Kristen Cole took his rage out on Joffrey and that that was, you know, a bit of escape goat there.

[00:56:49] But maybe I don't know. Maybe we'll, yeah, I don't know either. It's just interesting that he just like literally disappeared. Yeah, it didn't. I don't know. It didn't feel like he would just disappear like that. Like he would be all up in the middle of it or

[00:57:08] something because, yeah, she, they were there in the middle of the floor and then all of a sudden she's getting tossed aside and nearly stepped on and pushed into some chairs. And it was like, well, Damon was literally just right there. Why, you know, he should have,

[00:57:28] should have been there to protect her. Why did he, he buzzed out fast? I don't know what happened. It was odd. Yeah, he did. Yeah, because when you're wasn't a lot of trouble in that whole thing. I mean, it wouldn't surprise me to know that he stirred some

[00:57:45] shit because that's kind of what Damon does, you know? Yeah, he just, he's like the Joker. Yeah, he's, he reminds me of the all state commercials mayhem. You know, he's just always kind of causing mayhem wherever he pops up. So, and I mean, he achieved that by

[00:58:02] showing up unexpectedly, you know, just kind of insisting, quietly insisting a seat at the table and doesn't rise when Allison comes in. He's like the only one that doesn't rise. Idiot. What an idiot. So yeah, I know it's, but I mean, I don't know. Again, maybe it is

[00:58:23] the Damon move. I come, I did what I set out to do, you know, he stirred things up and then bailed. It's kind of something he might do. I don't know. Well, I mean, if you think about it though, that's

[00:58:41] what Damon has been doing this entire time. If it wasn't for Damon, things would be fine. You know what I mean? I really think like, Raniro would be able to find somebody that she matches

[00:58:53] with. Maybe she would even, you know, find somebody that she likes on her own who will end up being the person that she likes on her own very soon. Again, that's for book talk. But

[00:59:11] you know, maybe she would have been given the time, maybe she would have been given the latitude. Maybe there wouldn't have been Otto's, you know, fervent, one dimensional look at just making sure that Damon is never going to be king and trying to just, you know,

[00:59:32] stay eye on the prize as far as that is concerned. I don't know. I mean, I think that if there wasn't this Damon and Otto dynamic that things would be very, very, very different.

[00:59:44] At King's Landing. Maybe if there wasn't Otto or not Otto, Damon, but he is a Matt, he is the, he puts Loki from the Marvel to shame. Yeah, he likes to stir it up and I'm here for it.

[01:00:05] Yeah, I mean too. He's not a good person, but I don't care. He's a trash person. Oh yeah. Yeah, he's trash straight up trash. I mean, he's not a good guy. And I've said that. I've been very clear about that. He is not a good

[01:00:17] guy and I'm not going to sit here and defend him by any means. I like him as he is. I'm not here to fix him. So that's okay. We're too old to fix men. I have zero interest. They are.

[01:00:31] They are. I have zero interest in it. I'm too old for that shit. I'm just gonna fix myself. Thank you very much. Anyone anymore? If you don't come to me broken, that's all I'm gonna say. Come

[01:00:43] to me broke. Yeah, at least come to me broken and tell me you're fixing it. Yeah. Bad chance of that. But anyway, was that all of your point? Yeah, that was yeah, Damon's entrance.

[01:00:59] I just loved it so much the minute I saw him. I was like, yes, this is gonna be great. I can't help but smile. Seriously, I know I know he just killed his wife.

[01:01:09] But I still love to see. I know we just committed murder again, but who cares? He entertains me and that's all I care about. I'm just being honest. I can't help it. It's okay. I just totally love it because it's true. I mean, there's like a bad guy.

[01:01:34] He is a bad guy. Look what he just did. If there was any doubt that anybody's like, I don't know. He's a little great. No, no, he's not. You can be. No, keep watching.

[01:01:44] You can be. Yeah, keep watching. You can be. Keep watching. I think we said it way back, probably one of the first episodes, kind of setting this up or maybe even in our intro episode about kind of talking about the characters and introduction to characters.

[01:01:59] You can be a really, really bad person and do a good thing. You know, you can be a really, really good person and do a bad thing. And there's a lot of that in this book, in this story.

[01:02:11] Damon is a really, really bad person. I'm not blind to that, but he entertains the shit out of me and I just love. Yes, he does. Without him, there wouldn't be a story to tell.

[01:02:20] Yeah. So love to see it. Well, I want to talk about, and I know we have talked about him, but Sir Kristen Cole, let's do it. Man, did so. Did anyone else, you know,

[01:02:36] you're rooting for him? Or at least I know I was. You're rooting for him. Yeah. Yeah, Kristen Cole is a good guy. This dude thought his D game was so good that it was going to change

[01:02:48] the life and goals of a woman. And I'm like, what? Yeah. He really overvalued his D. Like sure, sure dude. He did. I'll give up the crown for you. Yeah. You know, really on point,

[01:03:05] I think, for how some men really think about their D game. Well, especially when he was like, he told Alison later, she made me, oh, screw you. Screw you. Yeah, screw that dude. Look,

[01:03:19] he is a grown ass man and I get it. You know, you can argue if you want the power dynamics, but he is a Kingsguard. He answers to the king. She is a princess, not the queen and not the

[01:03:33] king. He could have said no and went and reported her to the king and her ass would have been in trouble. He could have said no. Or he could have just said no and it would have been fine, you

[01:03:44] know? Yeah. She had, you know what though? Like I see what I'm saying right now. I see what I'm saying and we say the same thing for women that are caught in the same position.

[01:03:56] You could have just said no and walked away. Yeah. And sometimes you feel powerless to do that. I see what I just did and I'm going to take that comment immediately back. That's fair. Yeah. No, I apologize because there is a power struggle and there is,

[01:04:16] whether it's male or female, there is a power struggle and that power struggle is real. You don't know what to do in that moment. And it is possible that he felt conflicted. It is possible

[01:04:29] that he felt that he had to do what she asked him to do. However, at the same time, I'm going I'm going to go on with this. He said he wanted to marry her. He said he wanted to run away with her

[01:04:40] and he really, really seems to truly love her. So that's where I'm a little conflicted. I feel like you keep going with your point. Well, and I hear that and I don't disagree. And look, I don't

[01:04:57] want, I don't want to make it sound like that it's one way for men and one way for women because I get that. But I feel he wanted to be there. My opinion, whenever I watch that scene

[01:05:15] with him, there was a conflict but it was mostly the conflict over breaking his vows because being a king's guard is a breach. Yeah, that was that for me was the struggle not I don't want

[01:05:30] or feel right doing this because I don't want to be here. It was more of, I don't know if I want to do this because I'm breaking my vows and clearly that means something to him because

[01:05:40] of how he reacts in this episode and in this scene because he's all upset that he slept with her and he feels ruined and shamed and dishonored because he broke his vows and he thinks that

[01:05:52] he can fix that by marrying Reneira and running off and living an exile. He's all caught up in his feelings, dude. And I think it's a double standard because he told Reneira,

[01:06:04] he messed around before he became a king's guard and now she's ready to have her hot girl summer. He's pissed that she wants to like have her freedom and he can't, he just can't see that.

[01:06:21] And so he's also, he is also somebody who has the double standard. Yes. And he's trying to work that double standard to his advantage. Yes. 100%. I 100% agree with you. Well, the line that

[01:06:35] I actually wrote down that you were just alluding to a minute ago is I thought if we were married, I might be able to restore it, meaning his honor, right? So that's that ambition getting in

[01:06:49] the way again, right? That's that's the, you know, all I have is my name, all I have is my honor and I bloodied it and I soiled it and la la la la la la. Okay. Well, then why do you want her to

[01:07:02] run away with you because you feel bad? What do you want her to run away with you because you actually care for her? So you're right, that is, that is the question. Yeah, I think he

[01:07:13] had more say in what happened. Now, I get it. He's a Kingsguard. She's a princess. There's a power dynamic there and I don't, I don't want to make that small by any means. But I, I got from that

[01:07:31] scene because he was smiling with her, you know, he, he wanted to be there. And I think he made a choice. He made that choice, but he's putting it now on her. But you know, I see another

[01:07:44] side of that in the, in the, in these times, these like medieval times, if, if that had been a woman and Kristen Cole had done that to a woman and ruined her because again, here we are talking,

[01:07:56] we were talking about Renea earlier, you know, if the threat of her maiden head has, you know, these rumors, whether it's true or whether it's not, you know, you know, she's not free

[01:08:06] to just go around and, you know, be with whomever she wants to be without being married. That's kind of what's being put on him. He's like, well, you've ruined me, you know, in quotes,

[01:08:21] you've ruined me. And the only way that we can fix this is by getting married. That's the only way that I'm going to be able to, to feel good about myself and to restore my honor. The same

[01:08:33] as if, you know, a man in these times ruins a woman. He's supposed to marry her to fix her honor, to, you know, commit to that. And I don't know. It's, I feel like this was a little bit of,

[01:08:49] a little bit rushed with, with Kristen Cole because I think it would have been maybe good to see their relationship blossom a little bit more because it would have made more sense when

[01:08:56] he spun out there at the wedding or at the feast because it didn't make complete sense to me why he would go so overkill on Joffrey. And the only thing I can think that he, he, why he did that is because,

[01:09:12] you know, Joffrey confronted him and he's like, Hey, I know it's all good, you know, you and me were the same, you know, you're going to have your little thing with her.

[01:09:21] I'm going to have my little thing with, with Lainer. We're all good. We're on the same page. And I think it, it was a reminder for Kristen Cole what he had done, which he's just wanting to kind

[01:09:31] of forget about that because he feels so much shame over that. And I think a couple of things were maybe happening. Joffrey one knows a secret like he knows his shame, you know, in quotes and knows

[01:09:44] about what happened. And also it was a reminder. And I think he just snapped. And that was maybe why. Because I'm like, dude, you slept with her one time. What is all of this?

[01:09:57] And I'm saying one time we didn't see any other time no other time was mentioned. So I'm assuming it was just the one time that we saw. And I don't think a lot of time has passed since then either

[01:10:06] when we look at the timeline, everything that seems to have happened from the time that they found out to auto being dismissed as hand and then Allison, like in the beginning there has a conversation with Otto, so he's still at King's Landing. I'm thinking there hasn't been

[01:10:22] a whole lot of time that's passed for there to be any other sexual interludes to happen between them. I think it was just that one time. But maybe I mean, it's obvious that he liked her

[01:10:34] way more than she ever liked him. But it would have been nice to get a little bit more of him falling for her to make more sense as to why he reacted the way that he did. But I don't know, I agree.

[01:10:47] Well, you need to let it go. So anyway, that's my point. I talked a lot about that. Yeah. And I'm so glad that you brought it up too because I just I think that conversation is

[01:11:03] that conversation is actually that was what I was going to use that conversation for our opening bit before the podcast. But I decided that the arranged marriage conversation was much better. But yeah, I totally agree with you there. I wish that he would have just waited like

[01:11:27] two more seconds to know that he wasn't admitting to being with her, that he was that she was being questioned about Raniro with Damon. Right. So and that's a different that that's a different scene, of course, but it all

[01:11:50] coincides together with like this weird, you know, guilt that he had over everything that was happening and it had nothing to do with Raniro. It had only to do with himself, his ambition, his ego. Good point though. I like it.

[01:12:07] Thanks. So let's shoot was it my turn or your turn? Do you remember? I think it was mine. Okay, so we're so okay. So what let's get into notes. Kristen,

[01:12:23] you want to start off with your remaining? I do. I have a couple of notes. One of them is, you know, we were talking earlier about Damon's entrance and Allison's entrance. But we never really talked about the Valerian's entrance and I thought that it was just really

[01:12:40] a little over the top, but at the same time like they got style. And I loved that. I love the fact that they were like, we're coming in. We love because, you know,

[01:12:52] Coralus last time that he was in King's Landing, he kind of like left in a huff. And so now he's coming in and he's like, here's my son. He's about to be king

[01:13:02] consort. I've got the Navy, I've got the dragons and back on top. Everything's great. You know? Yeah, I thought it was appropriate that it was it was a good show. Yes, it reminded me of Kingsley Kingsley Kingsford Chekelbot from Harry Potter that after

[01:13:21] Double Door disappears by his by his Phoenix. He goes, well, you may not like him, but he's he got it met. He's got style. That's fitting. Yes. Yes. Also the I love seeing Harwin

[01:13:43] break bones in action. You know, you got to kind of see exactly why he's, you know, named break bones and he's just so strong. And he just like went in there and he just

[01:13:52] made very little work out of, you know, busting through the crowd, grabbing Reneira and taking her off. And, you know, maybe that's a little symbolic. Maybe it's not. But I you definitely know that two of them, you know, might have a couple conversations after this.

[01:14:12] If a man does not bust through a crowd like that and hoist me up on his shoulders, then I don't want it. So yeah, that's all I'm going to say about Harwin strong for the moment. Yeah. Well, I think he's also like really, really good looking.

[01:14:26] I don't know what I pictured in my head when I was reading the book. But, you know, when I saw him, I was like, yeah, okay, you kind of look like a manlier version of John Snow. I'll take it.

[01:14:37] Mm hmm. I'm not mad about it. No, no, ma'am. Let's see if there's anything else that I really had notes of because I feel like we've talked about almost everything like even like, even in our other points, like we've talked about other

[01:14:54] stuff. You know, we've talked about how disrespectful that Coralus was having Viserys come to him. Viserys being so ill on the ship, I just felt really bad for him. Dude just can't catch a break.

[01:15:09] I know that poor man. And also something that I thought was very interesting two things. First of all, in the opening scene with Lady Rhea and Damon, Damon never said one word, that entire scene. It was a one sided conversation, but he commanded the scene.

[01:15:31] And I thought that was really, really incredible. I thought he did a really good job. Matt Smith is great. You know, in Rogue Prince, the second episode with the Stepstones and him going on to the battlefield, he never said a word then either.

[01:15:50] And yeah, what a magnificent performance. So Matt Smith is I think a really great actor. I don't, I think I mentioned it before. I haven't really seen him in a whole lot of things, but so I didn't, I didn't realize his range. I think he's doing absolutely fantastic.

[01:16:05] Did you see him in the crown? Yes, I did. I thought he was fantastic. I thought it was really good, but that's the only thing that I've really seen him in.

[01:16:12] So I didn't really, I was like, okay, so I've seen him in this and he was really good, but I don't really have any other. I am not really, I haven't seen Doctor Who,

[01:16:20] so I can't, I don't have that to compare to and, but I mean, I'm interested after this. I haven't seen Doctor Who either. Yeah, I know. I feel like I've got to cash in my geek card because I haven't seen it, but

[01:16:32] I just, I haven't. It just was not on my radar like ever. And I feel like, oh my gosh, now I'm kind of intimidated by how long it's gone on that there's no way in hell

[01:16:40] I'm ever going to like, right, I'm with you. So I'm kind of intimidated. I'm kind of like, maybe that's a ship that sailed unfortunately, but I know a lot of people love it for a good reason. But yeah, he's fantastic.

[01:16:52] He was definitely commanding in that scene. He's definitely an intimidating presence. And I'm curious, you know, talking about that scene with him and Lady Rae, you know, Damon, I think is very opportunistic. And I was like, is he really there to kill her,

[01:17:11] to taunt her or what? And like, did she know, or did he know that she was out hunting at this time? Did he have a plan as to what he was wanting to do? I mean, he seemed to definitely

[01:17:23] indicate to her again without words to Lady Rae that he was there to offer. She definitely felt threatened, you know, because she's reaching for her bow and she's getting ready to run away. And I'm like, so how did this happen? How did this, how did he get,

[01:17:41] how did he make this incident happen? How did he make this look like an accident? And I think, and I'm just curious because I'm seeing this theory floating around and I'm buying

[01:17:49] into it. You know, we got in that first episode when Queen Emma says to Reneira, you stink like dragon, you smell like dragon, you're like a dragon. Damon had to have gotten, because we talked, well maybe we mentioned in book talks, maybe not everyone will hear this part,

[01:18:08] that maybe not a lot of time has passed from when Damon, or from when we left in the last episode to where we are now where Damon ends up in the veil. He had to have gotten there, I think,

[01:18:22] because the veil in King's Landing is not close. It's not a short ride. So I think he must have gotten there by riding caraxies. And so he stinks of dragon and I don't know what a dragon

[01:18:35] smells like. We could talk about that all day, what do dragons smell like? But assume that he has some dragon scent on him and you notice when he's approaching very slowly the horse, how he's waving

[01:18:46] his hand around. You can see the way that the wind is blowing, they're kind of upwind of Damon. I think he is letting the horse get a whiff of dragon and that is what is spooking

[01:18:58] the horse. That's a really good catch. I didn't, yeah, that's great. Yeah, it was interesting the way that because he kind of does it a couple times, you see him do this. Again, he's not talking,

[01:19:08] but he's doing this thing with his hand, kind of throwing it up in front of the horse. And this horse is a hunting horse. Hunting horses are typically trained to not spook real easy,

[01:19:19] right? Because that's what they're out for is for hunting. So what can spook a hunting horse or a horse in the veil, but a dragon and or the scent of dragon. So I wonder if that's what

[01:19:31] he did to kind of spook the horse. And then when the horse reared up, I think Damon, you see his hand go up and I think he suplexed the horse to make the horse because he doesn't want the horse

[01:19:44] to just throw, Rea, because she could survive that. She's a trained horsewoman. She could probably take a fall. But I think he purposely wanted, he suplexed the horse once he got

[01:19:54] it to rear up. It looks like he put his hand up on the horse and help it suplex to fall directly on her to really injure her. And then of course, she taunted him there at the end

[01:20:06] and he was like, okay, I'll show you, I can finish. Right, right, right. But I just thought that was interesting and yeah, very good performance with no words. Yes, he's very, very good at that.

[01:20:19] He's got a very expressive face. Dude is good. And the last thing was just that this episode was bookended by death. First, Renera, or Lady Rea being killed by Damon and then Sarah Christen killing Joffrey. And all kind of for Renera kind of, which is interesting. So,

[01:20:47] I don't know. It wouldn't be the world of Game of Thrones if we didn't have some deaths beginning and ending an episode. Especially at a wedding, right? Right. Yeah. What's that, a meager affair. It was just one death. Right. It's nothing by death rocky standards. Exactly.

[01:21:10] Good. How about you? What are your notes? I have a few. I'm going to get through them as quickly as possible. So just wanted to quickly mention just a note for all of our listeners, the dragons. So the dragons we saw this episode, we saw Sea Smoke,

[01:21:28] Lenor on his Dragon Seas smoke as they're arriving in King's Landing. And for the first time in House of the Dragon in this episode, we got Maley's also known as the Red Queen. She was ridden by

[01:21:42] Rhaenys. So Maley's was called the Red Queen. She was a she dragon. She had scarlet scales and pink membranes on her wings, which that is why she was referred to as the Red Queen.

[01:21:54] Her crest horns and claws were bright as copper, it is said. And she was considered to be one of the swiftest dragons in Westeros, easily outpacing craxies and vagar. So great to see her. We

[01:22:07] just got her for a few minutes, but she was beautiful and glorious in the sky with her red coloring. So that was awesome. I can't wait to see more of these dragons too. They just, they're teasing me and they're just, they're rolling them out very slowly. I'm hoping

[01:22:23] for some really big things in future episodes. Yes, me too. Let's see, we've got what else? Oh, I talked earlier about Daemon at standing for Alice and so I won't say that again. Oh, I think a good note just for anyone future reference if your name's Joffrey,

[01:22:42] maybe you just don't go to a wedding in Westeros. Or, you know, change your name. King's Landing. Yeah, change your name maybe. Oh, and then a line, one of my favorite lines, Daemon of course, when he's

[01:23:01] confronted about the death of his wife, he said, I am positively bereft. I mean, I can't say it as well as what he did in the same tone. I'm positively bereft. But Daemon for the coldness win. Yes. That was really great. I think that's it for my notes.

[01:23:27] Okay. All right. Well, we are going to switch over to the news. So let me switch over to the news. So the first piece of news that was so I'm going to say this about the news

[01:23:44] because we're in a weird point of the season and we're about to do the time jump, there is a lot of news out there about the time jump and considering that it's a little

[01:23:55] spoilery, I left all of that out and it didn't really leave a lot for today or for this week. I will say that number one, the biggest piece of news I think we are recording on September 20th,

[01:24:08] Tuesday. Today is George R.R. Martin's birthday. So happy birthday to George R.R. Martin. We are celebrating you today by talking extensively about this episode. We love the content. Keep it coming, George.

[01:24:26] Yes, please. The second piece of news that we have is actually, it is from Yahoo News and it is titled House of the Dragon Star Matt Smith says, Renea and Allison recasting is a brilliant idea.

[01:24:42] So I picked this because I thought it was just kind of like a really nice way to just kind of put an ending, a period on the end of our two young actresses really, Millie Alcock and

[01:24:57] oh my gosh her name is Emily Darcy. No, oh, Emma Darcy. Nope. Millie Alcock and Emily Kerry. That's who it is. So in the first five episodes of Game of Thrones prequel series, Millie Alcock and Emily Kerry portray the show's main characters, Renea, Targaryen, Allison,

[01:25:18] Hightower and when they're between the ages of 14 and 18. However, in the upcoming sixth episode, there will be a 10 year time jump to when Renea ascends to the Iron Throne. At this point, Renea

[01:25:30] and Allison will be played by Emma Darcy and Olivia Cook respectively and the twins, Laina and Lainar Valerion will also be replaced by older actors. During an interview with E! News, Matt Smith who plays Renea's uncle, Daemon Targaryen said he thinks the recasting is a brilliant

[01:25:47] idea. It was brilliant actually quote it was brilliant actually because I think they done brilliant work. Smith said it gave you a completely different context for the age thing to play off of. Constantine Constantine who plays Renea's father, King Viserys Targaryen also said the recasting is a good

[01:26:04] idea. Yeah, I loved it. He told E! News. I loved it because they were the same character but they had a different energy. So I like this article because I think that it just shows that

[01:26:23] you know there are these two time periods that are happening in the show and you know unfortunately we're probably not going to see these two younger actors from here on out as

[01:26:35] long as the show is. And they've done brilliant work and that should be amended and talked about and recognized. And you know we're about to go into these all new actresses and it's going to

[01:26:49] be almost like starting a whole new show in my opinion. You know so I can't wait to see what's happening but I do know it's nice to know that Matt Smith and Patty Constantine both

[01:27:02] really enjoyed the switch and I'm sure it was a lot more comfortable for Patty in particular as far as being married to you know somebody who is not 17 years old. Yes. Because when they were

[01:27:19] filming Emily Darcy, was it Emily Darcy? Yeah she was 17 and he was 47 and that couldn't have been easy for either party. And yeah and it's nice to just acknowledge the transition. I know a

[01:27:36] lot of folks are you know kind of upset because they've really grown and I get it. I mean these younger actresses they're just brilliant in their performances and I'm going to miss them too

[01:27:47] but I think it's, I hear a lot of people because they already know about the time jump. I don't think it's too spoilier to even say that there's going to be a time jump and

[01:27:55] you know if you've heard or saw previews then you know it's going to happen but you know a lot of folks are kind of upset about it and I get it. But I think it's important because

[01:28:06] you know it's I think a little bit more believable to age them up a little for what's going to happen so yeah it's nice to acknowledge that. They were brilliant. Yeah so that's all I have for news this week. There's really not a lot just because

[01:28:24] of the time jump and you know how many times can you read the same article over and over again before it's just you know the same article. Yep I don't, yeah I don't worry too much about the

[01:28:34] news just in general because I'm like you know what everybody's got Google and if there's something super interesting I'll include it but yeah. But happy birthday to the Grimm. Oh. All right let's get into Lucifer feedback. Yeah let's do it. Feedback this week so

[01:28:55] do you want to take the first one? Sure. Cindy Barrick says me watching House of the Dragon season 1 episode 5 is he dead? Oh no he's still alive. Oh now he's dead wait he's still alive

[01:29:09] well now he's really dead. What how is he still alive? The series what is dead may never die. That's funny. It was touching go there the dude's got something going on did you see his arm?

[01:29:27] I thought it was grayscale at first. It's the poor guy I mean I feel feel bad for him he's got to be suffering but yeah it was touching go there. That's right. Renee Murray says

[01:29:42] Alice has shown her true colors she has some nerves acting all high and mighty as if she didn't tell tales and keep secrets from Reneira. Yeah that's what I said. That is such a good point.

[01:29:54] Yeah that's I was like you know hey girl you didn't tell Reneira anything for six months about you and your little secret dates with the series you know like her father didn't say anything and

[01:30:07] Allison didn't say anything so yeah yeah right there with your Renee anyway I'm so sorry she goes on Sir Kristen went berserk he's definitely pee whipped. That Damon ain't nothing nice he

[01:30:23] sauntered into the feast as if he was invited I can't with him I really wanted him to take Reneira up on her offer and take her to Dragonstone. Lord Corlys Velaryon is killing his role I love

[01:30:37] the way his house entered into the feast him and his wife seem to truly love one another they actually remind me of Ned and Cat Stark so I know their house is not going to win the game

[01:30:46] of thrones but nevertheless I'm still team blackety black black. Yes yes yes agreed. Agree with all those things. Nathan Eschelman says I have to agree with what Rima said last week

[01:31:02] I'm hitching my cart to team Damon like the chaos ensues. Thank you. If you're a real person I'm sure I wouldn't even want to be on the same continent but from an entertainment perspective Matt Smith

[01:31:13] is my favorite part of the show the biggest compliment I can give to the podcast is that it's so engaging that your thoughtful insight to each episode has made me buy fire and blood. Yay!

[01:31:25] I've started reading because I don't want to miss out listening to book talk with you both. I'm running long but I had a fun question this week if you had a dragon what color would

[01:31:35] you want it to be? Thanks. Wow thanks Nathan that's awesome feedback and looks like we've converted another non-book reader to a book reader. Yay the book's actually really fun to read too.

[01:31:49] I love it I hope you enjoy let us know what you think Nathan once you start diving in. Yes. If I had a dragon what color would I want it to be that is tough because as I've been reading

[01:32:02] about all of the dragons and the different colorations of all of these different dragons I'm going to go with for today because I am there's a Dracarys app that is like this fun little feeder dragon kind of thing game. It's so fun. You're gonna feed it and groom

[01:32:23] it after you've hatched it and that dragon is bronze he's got like bronze wings under his wings there was that the membrane I guess they call it and blue. Oh beautiful. Yeah so he's bronze

[01:32:38] in blue so I'm going with that that's my dragon in in my little game that I'm playing so that's what I'm going with what about you Kristen? Well I am a diehard uh Laker fan my entire life

[01:32:50] so anytime I get to pick colors it is always purple and gold. Oh glorious. Beautiful dragon. Yes and purple is my favorite color so I love purple too I'm sporting purple hair right now so

[01:33:03] that isn't possible. Well Nathan you need to answer your own question. Yeah what would yours be? What would yours be? All right Anwen Carver-Holtausen says well it wouldn't be a wedding without extreme bloodshed would it? Otto gave Allison the choice of fighting for her son or being at

[01:33:21] the mercy of Reneira I guess she put on her green fighting frock if looks could kill she's gone from sad victim to proto Sansa with one outfit change as soon as I saw the young prince's ginger lover in

[01:33:34] the sand dunes I said he's dead that beating was so gross uh yes it was uh best moment was the valarians entering the banquet like the fierce badass boss family they are I want all their

[01:33:47] costumes and cold titles and Damon I hate and adore him exponentially each episode. Yeah he's so fun to watch he's so fun to watch just you know crazy. Love to hear it I'm I'm all in. We have a couple of more here um we have one from

[01:34:13] Wendy Ott Eppers hi Wendy. Adult affair by Dothraki standards Reneira thought she had it all figured out Mary one bed the other and all the while she smolders for demons but Sarah Kristen could not

[01:34:26] take it as lightly as she it's obvious that the situation has been eating at him and she could no longer handle the charade I wish we had the younger actresses for at least a season but

[01:34:36] as always I can't wait to see what comes next agreed. Next one is from Penny Lennox she says forgive me if you've already covered this but could you talk a bit about how dragons and

[01:34:48] writers are paired anyone else think of Mira Reed when we met Lady Rhea? Yes yeah yeah I thought she was a little also could have been a little Arya a dull Arya oh yeah maybe mm-hmm yeah

[01:35:02] they could have even cast the same actor you know Damon is pissed he didn't get to beat someone to death and ruin the wedding himself yes oh my gosh yeah I think he's like hey that's

[01:35:18] that's what I'm supposed to be doing right now yeah um so I actually saw this and I'm glad that you mentioned that I'll just quickly I have some information Penny about dragon writers so

[01:35:31] a person just a little history a person may become a dragon writer at any age so much like horses and their writers some are very young some as teenagers some not until adulthood to ride a

[01:35:43] dragon a person has to bond with the dragon and once the dragon and the writer have bonded the dragon will not allow anyone else to mount it while its writer lives no matter how familiar

[01:35:55] that said person might be to the dragon now dragons are willing to accept another person upon their backs as long as their own writer has also mounted so say for example there's a time of Visenya Targaryen

[01:36:10] Queen Visenya Targaryen um that was back within Aegon's days Aegon and his sister wives she gave a ride to young Lord Ronald Aaron upon her dragon Vagar so as long as she was on the

[01:36:23] dragon um sometimes the dragon will accept an additional writer but their their dragon writer has to be present um it is generally generally believed that Valyrian heritage plays a part and being able to bond with the dragon in the Valyrian freehold the dragon lord family's

[01:36:38] frequently married brother to sister to keep the bloodline pure now of course we've seen that with the Targaryens right mm-hmm there are some people with no known or uncertain Valyrian descent have made attempts to claim dragons um or sorry there are no known or uncertain Valyrian descent

[01:36:57] people of descent that have made attempts to claim the dragons during that time never nevertheless the possession of Valyrian blood no matter how direct is it's not a guarantee that a bond with a dragon will be successful um but at some point it did become a custom

[01:37:13] among members of House Targaryen to ensure bonding with dragons by placing unhatched dragon eggs in the cradles of their children now we saw uh in what was it episode two when Daemon stole the dragon

[01:37:27] egg and he was going to place it in his quote son's um cradle uh to hopefully have him bond be a dragon if that was um so and so what is dragon bonding it's it's complicated and it can happen at

[01:37:44] any time um it's usually when the human riders are younger Rhaenyra for instance bonded with with her dragon Cyrax when she was only seven years old um again the bond is a one-on-one relationship once they're bonded they won't allow any other humans to ride them um

[01:38:00] um the that bond does last until death um given their long lifespans dragons usually outlive their riders in some cases a dragon may bond with a new rider after that first rider's death um technically speaking a dragon rider who outlives their dragon could attempt to bond with

[01:38:19] a new dragon but no one in history has ever actually attempted it now the exact science of the bond between human dragon riders and their dragons is a little murky and it's hard

[01:38:30] to predict there really isn't any full explanation for that um so just you know we're not really sure of that but they did try to increase their odds of a dragon hatching and bonding with a human

[01:38:43] by placing that unhatched dragon egg in the cradle um so I don't know that that was very helpful they don't they say it's more of a maybe maybe not there's not an exact science

[01:38:55] it's still it's still like magical dragons are magic um so there's not a full explanation but that's what I was able to glean so hopefully that helps penny I think that that was very a very

[01:39:07] great response so I hope that that helped because that was feels good um lastly um Alicia Stout says did we see a quick glimpse of the mushroom the only thing left to say is

[01:39:21] shits about to get real y'all um my my Amandini uh responded that she that she said I believe it was mushroom I saw somewhere that patty constantine had requested he be at the wedding

[01:39:37] hmm I've seen some speculation about that being mushroom um I don't know that it was I don't have confirmation either way uh but I don't know that it was I think it was a nod

[01:39:52] to mushroom though that's why I'm hoping that we get him I hope so but I don't know I don't know what they'll decide to do yeah um we had a lot more feedback this week I just couldn't find

[01:40:09] the post-in time so I apologized to everybody that we didn't get to Lindsay Schlitt had an amazing response and uh hopefully next week we'll get everybody in there and I will I'll be on it

[01:40:22] more next week promise and promise guys but with that we're gonna go to um our voicemails so the first one we have is our one and only uh live steving

[01:40:43] hello dragoncast this is Steve and this is for we light the way I don't know why I just did it like that oh totally unrelated but why Lord is coming back in October always wondering why the Targaryen

[01:40:54] crest has a dragon with three heads on it we've never seen a three-headed dragon right oh this is Daemon's real wife feel like that comment about the sheep being uh more attractive

[01:41:05] was something he might have said to her at one point okay well that's one way to get rid of your wife Daemon oh this episode not for her metaphobes right isn't that the people that can't watch

[01:41:14] vomiting this conversation between Allison and her father maybe foreshadowing of things to come not to be spoilery okay so the tea was something yeah the gods are cruel and Daemon yeah we know that's not gonna happen because the dragons die out well I guess 200 years from now

[01:41:31] there's no dragons but maybe 100 years from now there's still dragons I don't know I guess West Rose doesn't have hyphenates so it couldn't be like Targaryen Valerian Valerian Targaryen okay was that conversation between Wenerus and I'm assuming Leno Leno or how do you say his

[01:41:46] name it's not Leonard but uh like euphemistic the conversation they were having there on the beach about the Duke and the Duke the duck and the goose okay I guess the duck and the goose conversation was euphemistic now we're seeing this conversation between Leno and his partner

[01:42:03] is Sir Kristen trying to convince her to go away with him now oh but yeah Renerus I don't think Kristen's gonna be your side piece who is Allison gonna ask Sir Kristen about

[01:42:17] Renerus and what he did with her well no she's asking about Daemon and he's about to confess that he did it and now King Viserius uh regretting the fact that he's never been tested by war

[01:42:27] oh so she's not gonna marry Lenore she's marrying the Lannister guy okay no she is marrying Sir Lanner it's just this is how's Lannister coming to the wedding oh and of course Daemon's gotta

[01:42:38] come pee in the weedies oh no is the king gonna die making the announcement oh no oh who is this queen it's queen Allison that has stopped him in his tracks no you said there's some

[01:42:50] significance to the green the red and the yellow or whatever colors fact that she's wearing green is significant wait this isn't the wedding itself okay this is the wedding this is the dance not

[01:43:01] the wedding a more palace intrigue involving Daemon and Sir Gerald and Lady Daemon Daemon Daemon oh don't poke the bear uh Lanners partner whatever to Sir Kristen Kristen I complained last week with the color but now could the font be smaller in this hi valerian font the subtitles

[01:43:23] yeah what's going on so Sir Kristen Cole is attacking the and the princess is being taken away by somebody and the king looks like he's dying sorry this went long uh this episode

[01:43:36] was long and a lot happened oh and I guess we are getting the wedding oh and queen Allison stops Kristen from killing himself that was amazing as always oh I laughed even I'm so hard at

[01:43:55] all of that well he said something earlier that I thought was really interesting too that we didn't discuss um I do agree about the gold font with when they're speaking valerian I had to actually

[01:44:12] read it to Dave because he couldn't see it even with his glasses yeah I am always wearing my glasses with this show that was a great that was a great live steving thank you thank you Steve thanks Steve

[01:44:27] and next we have uh Greg hello dragon cast sorry for the quick and maybe relatively loud voicemail but uh this is Greg uh this episode was pretty crazy I think it was a pretty good one for the end of

[01:44:46] Millie Alcott and not the end of but the end of their run as Allison's and and Renea I really thought that like the sea stone not sea stone that was quite great um high tide

[01:45:02] was really really cool to see that's one of my favorite things about this show is that we're seeing places that we've only heard about or read about and they're doing it justice a lot I think

[01:45:14] that the more I see the intro uh the more I get irritated with it because I can't make tailed heads or tails of what's going on but uh I can just sit and listen to music and I'm fine

[01:45:27] like on the intro for Game of Thrones we're like we know what new places are or try to identify differences in all of the things but I had have zero concept of like

[01:45:38] where's up or down or whatever at the car anyway um this wedding was pretty crappy uh I mean or at least uh the leading up to it was um at least the wedding got done

[01:45:52] but we will see how everybody suffers and where to the end all right I look forward to hearing you guys talk about it bye thanks Greg that was good thank you Greg yeah this was a very interesting episode for sure

[01:46:09] it was a lot a lot happened and a lot happened to get us moving forward for sure okay I agree I totally agree um okay well I think that is it I believe so that I think that was

[01:46:29] really great coverage uh so far anyway yes and now we're here for book talk we are joined by Archmester Renny from the Citadel and I have many questions for you in the Citadel

[01:46:42] Archmester Renny so I'm really excited that you're here because I would have sent a raven and summoned you anyways great uh well I'm very excited to be here and I may have to go into the stacks of

[01:46:58] scrolls and books on chains and haul them out to have reference materials to answer your questions well I'm excited about it all yeah all the same um so how are you everything is

[01:47:11] good at the Citadel uh everything is great at the Citadel uh you know we sneeze a lot here because the books are all dusty but it's great it's really good to see you I have to say it's really good

[01:47:25] I've missed you these past few weeks so I'm really glad that I get to see your face and and talk about the book now and I had time to actually read through the Dance of Dragons

[01:47:34] while I'm head COVID yeah and then I started over from the beginning now so now I'm in the beginning and I'm reading good yay me um so as our archmaster where would you like to start today

[01:47:49] well I want to start by officially going on the record here to say that the show far surpasses its source material this is just a great adaptation so as we've said before Fire and Blood in

[01:48:05] fictional history rather than a novel um so it tells us what happened and sometimes different versions of what happened but not the details of why and how and how it felt for the participants

[01:48:20] and we knew all along that the show would have to fill all that in um what I didn't even dare to hope was how brilliantly they would take that scaffolding and make it live and breathe I'm loving everything about it the scripts the performances the visuals the costumes

[01:48:40] the dragons I would like some more dragons please yes please please so um yeah I'm really loving it that's so good I'm so glad I'm so happy yeah that makes me so happy

[01:48:58] how do you feel about the pacing um you know it's interesting I think if you're a non-book reader the pacing would be would feels uneven because sometimes they go whizzing through things and there

[01:49:20] are these jumps between each episode that are different lengths um I think as a book reader who's open to changes it's less bothersome to me I think for books book readers who are sticklers for

[01:49:40] wanting it to be exactly the same as the book that it's bothersome for them but uh I think the story is so strong that it pulls readers along with it and I'm fine with the pacing that they've

[01:49:57] had so far okay awesome so what do you want to start off and talk about with uh the book for the episode right for the the non-spoilery section um yes well a couple of things that I wanted to say

[01:50:15] first is um I heard in last week's podcast that some listeners who weren't previously book readers may be joining us uh as book readers and so I wanted to give all of them a special welcome

[01:50:27] welcome to all of you who have started reading yay yes we've had some some folks convert and said okay I broke down and bought it because because y'all thought I should and I'm like yes welcome

[01:50:38] of yes we could just say butterflies in the sky I could see a twineth as high take a lift the other thing that I was really struck with in in in this episode in particular

[01:50:54] that I wanted to point out is how much um this show recontextualizes the original game of thrones because we see how far fallen the monarchy in westeros is in the game of thrones time frame

[01:51:10] because now in this time we're in in house of the dragon the Targaryens are having serious troubles yes but there are still lots of Targaryens and they have dragons and you've got the two

[01:51:25] ancestral swords black fire and dark sister both at the same banquet table in this episode and both of those um swords and everything that they symbolize for the dynasty are long gone by

[01:51:39] the time of robert's rebellion and so we see in retrospect now that the whole timeline of game of thrones took place in a in a in a fallen world in a very diminished dynasty so yeah good I think that's interesting

[01:52:03] so my first observation for this episode is the title we light the way are the house words of house high tower yes and so therefore the title is emphasizing what uh elizabeth is doing when she

[01:52:22] comes in in the green dress uh emphasizing her house high tower um connection over her Targaryen connection yeah that was a statement yes yeah that was I mean do you think that that was as

[01:52:39] you know they they talked about the um the the words right with um larry saying that the beacon high tower glows green when calling its banners to war do you think that that was allicent doing

[01:52:54] exactly that I do think that was allicent doing exactly that yes especially when she goes over and talks to her uncle robert um who says you know house high tower stands with you

[01:53:10] you know she's she's the beacon calling her banners to war and he's responding and saying oh yeah we're yep we know girl we know yes well I I was just going to ask because I I wanted I'm interested in

[01:53:30] both of your opinions what do you think about the green being displayed but not the black as it does in the book right I feel like we got one half of that yeah so I'm thinking that we're not going to hear

[01:53:52] the factions called the greens and the blacks and I think the reason for that is because they have cast the valerian family with black actors yep that's kind of a bummer because that's such an important distinction the book but I understand what you're saying you know I think

[01:54:18] one thing they could have done is make them the greens and the reds maybe because Targaryen's are red and black yeah yes um well it was interesting too because Raniro was wearing white and gold

[01:54:31] and she wasn't wearing red or black during the wedding feast which was interesting it was an interesting choice to me it's an interesting choice and if you are um okay it's a fantasy world

[01:54:44] they can do whatever color schemes they want but if you're being uh pseudo medieval in our world white white was not a wedding color uh at that period white was you know adopted as a wedding

[01:55:00] color in the victorian era uh previously was not um a colored that was associated with wedding so that's that's a bit a historical that's interesting I didn't know that yeah okay um so what else

[01:55:23] well so um speaking of the marriage um as we've talked about before when Lainer is proposed for Raniro as the person she will marry uh she quips that her half brothers would be more to

[01:55:40] its taste um but in this version in this version she knows who he is um and she proposes her very practical solution to him giving them the chance to be friends within their marriage while still doing their duty and I just like this on-screen version better than Raniro's

[01:56:05] dismissiveness uh in the book um and I think um you know it's a it's a more mature approach uh than what we see in the book and also they've painted Lainer as a much uh more interesting character in the show because in the book

[01:56:31] you know Lainer's just doesn't he doesn't do much of anything and they have to have him nighted two weeks before the wedding because he you know he's supposed to be a knight but here he's already a

[01:56:40] knight he was battling in the stepstones he's established as a dragon rider um so you have a more fully fledged out um person there who uh Raniro can connect with in this way

[01:57:01] and I really appreciated that yeah I like what they've done with his character a lot yeah they've really given him a presence and and life versus what we saw in the book was so little so little

[01:57:11] in the book I agree I really like that actor um I really liked the actor who played poor Joffrey Launmouth also I I wouldn't mind seeing a spinoff show The Adventures of Lainer and Joffrey you know that happened before this day the the prequel yeah that's right

[01:57:33] um we've also talked talked about the two different versions of what happened between Raniro and Kristen Cole oh yeah right and I think that the way they've spun this out is really

[01:57:46] intriguing um in the book he has more power in that he's already the lord commander of the kingsguard at this point um whereas the show is emphasizing you know the show is emphasizing that he's a

[01:58:00] commoner who had nothing until Raniro chose him for the kingsguard and I think that you know it very fits in very well with the overall a song of ice and fire seems that when the nobles play their game of game of thrones the commoners suffer

[01:58:22] um good point and I really like how there are stages to his downfall and his rebirth he's devastated by Raniro's rejection but he's still hanging in there and doing his job until Allison questions him and and he thinks that she's after him not after Raniro that she's

[01:58:49] really trying to find out if he's guilty of something whereas Allison is trying trying to find out if Raniro is guilty of something right and and I think because he's a commoner

[01:58:59] he thinks that Royals really can't be in trouble and he just can't take the pressure anymore so he just fesses up and begs Allison for mercy and I think he's super confused when Allison just

[01:59:12] sends him on his way because that wasn't what she cared about and of course that's very different than what happens in the book he never confesses anything to Allison uh in the book um

[01:59:26] um and and I think that it's that tension and confusion that he's under when Joffrey Lawnmuth and so he's under all that tension when Joffrey Lawnmuth starts kind of playing with him um

[01:59:42] and once more here's a noble Joffrey Lawnmuth is he's a noble um giving a working guy who's on duty some trash talk and uh Kristen breaks all the way down and potentially gets himself even deeper

[01:59:59] in trouble um because he's just killed a noble and if you think back to episode one when he's got Damon down in the tourney he says yield and Damon just scowls at him and he says yield again in

[02:00:17] this almost pleading kind of tone like please yield I know that um I can't I don't dare do anything further to you so won't you please yield and Damon just gets up and walks off and he never does formally

[02:00:31] yield um so now I think Kristen knows he's totally screwed himself over and that's why he goes off to kill himself presumably to escape being arrested and tortured right and then Allent comes and absolves

[02:00:48] oh he also punched he also punched Lenor yeah yeah right uh huh that was the to me that was the biggest like what are you doing exactly he he punched the future uh king consort and he failed to protect

[02:01:05] the princess total dereliction of duty right yeah he cannot believe that he did that like when I saw that I go oh okay okay we're going there got it okay um and then when Allent comes and absolves him

[02:01:20] she owns him now oh yeah she's totally owns him yeah um so um in the show version the two competing book versions of what happened between Reneira and Kristen they both have elements of truth as the show plays it out Reneira did seduce him

[02:01:46] and he did propose to her and she turned him down yes so both of those things happen in in sequence um in the show um and one of the things that I think is crucial is that in

[02:02:03] mushrooms version of what happened where um a mushrooms version Reneira comes to him and he refuses to be seduced uh the reason that he refuses to be seduced is that

[02:02:16] quote he's a man of honor and true to his vows and quote and I think in the show Kristen is a man of honor and is trying to stay true to his vows and since he failed that's why he confesses

[02:02:32] and breaks down completely I agree yeah I think they handled it really well I I think it was I was just talking to Kristen about it earlier and our main part of the podcast was

[02:02:49] I thought it was a little rushed to see his extreme reaction to Reneira's rejection that I wish they had flushed it out a little bit more to kind of have that build up of how he seemed

[02:03:01] I guess to fall for her he was very caught in his feelings so I think we missed a little bit of that there but I do like how they handled it how we finally got that answer you know that

[02:03:12] well we got this story we got this story well it ends up being a mix of both so I I really liked it yeah um so I don't know if you commented earlier in the main part of the show there are two

[02:03:28] dragons that fly to the wedding and that's Lenore on Seasmo who we saw before in the Stepstones and Reneys on her dragon Mellies the Red Queen and Mellies the Red Queen uh oh she was so beautiful

[02:03:46] wasn't she gorgeous magnificent she originally belonged to Damon and Viserys' mother Alyssa Alyssa um and then uh Reneys became her second writer so we got to see two of the Valyrian dragons on the way to the wedding yeah it was glorious she was beautiful

[02:04:15] so um I wanted to talk about the way the wedding is described in the books um so the wedding was celebrated with seven days of feasts and jousting the greatest tourney in many a year and so instead of all of the dramatic things happening at that first

[02:04:38] feast as they do in the show most of the dramatic things happen during the tourney that's associated with the wedding um Reneys gives her favor to Harwen Strong known as Break Bones and when she does that Lenore laughs and gives his favor to Joffrey Lawnmouth

[02:05:02] and then because Kristen Cole was denied Reneys favor which she should have had since he's her sworn protector he uh quote turned to Queen Allison instead and he fought in that tourney in a black fury and defeated all challengers he breaks Harwen Strong's collar bone and his

[02:05:27] elbow to which I say oh ouch uh yeah broken elbow that's that's gotta hurt hurt in days before modern medicine and because of the the broken collar bone and the broken elbow mushroom calls him broken bones ever after because his nickname is Break Bones and

[02:05:50] Mushroom changes that to broken bones um but it's Joffrey Lawnmouth who feels the full measure of his wrath um he beats Joffrey so savagely with his morning star that he cracks open his helmet and leaves him uh senseless in the mud

[02:06:15] so Joffrey is carried away and he dies six days later Lenore spends the whole time by his bedside um and Viserys is uh most wroth that a joyous celebration had become an occasion

[02:06:32] of grief and recrimination um that is to say it became a typical song of ice and fire wedding but Allison did not share his displeasure after that she asked that Kristen Cole be made her personal protector so they've condensed all of those things down into

[02:06:56] the drama that takes place at that initial feast and and I'm guessing maybe for budgetary restrictions or you know time things like that you know it's maybe why we didn't get

[02:07:13] I mean it would have been so fun because that first joust was super cool to see uh but you know I'm guessing you know some some decisions were made you know for again budget or to draw it out

[02:07:24] you know a whole seven day feast and celebration for the wedding um and so the as you said the this rage that Kristen Cole was in during the joust they took that

[02:07:36] and put it here instead so that that makes sense right yeah okay yeah I'd forgotten about that part yeah um so it but it explains why he's able to get away with killing Joffrey Lawnmell

[02:07:52] because it was an attorney right right yeah what he's done in the show is a little bit of a worse transgression mm-hmm yeah yeah I just murdered someone straight up in the middle of a

[02:08:06] of a dance that they were having and and I don't even know I mean I I feel like they were on their way to this big long celebration like the the valerians just arrived and they're you know

[02:08:20] just kind of kicking off the celebrations seemed seem like this was the kickoff to the wedding celebrations and we got none of that you know they hurried up and had that wedding

[02:08:30] straight up right after after all of that yeah yeah so um but it's good because we gotta get there we gotta get there we gotta get there you know we gotta get get that's right loyalties and

[02:08:48] we've got to get all of these things in place to move forward with the story so that's okay yes and I don't think that we were going to get more than one attorney yeah in this season and we had it in

[02:09:02] the in the first episode so I'm totally okay with the way they they changed that yes it's it was a little bit all packed in but that's okay yep I'm okay with it if they spend their money

[02:09:16] on the dragons and less yes I'm okay with that it's fine yeah it's just fine I do have a question for you whenever because I talk about it in the podcast in our discussion of the episode and I just wanted to know what you thought about this

[02:09:36] and that is the long-standing theory that I just found out about this morning um about the maesters trying to kill off the Targaryens they are playing so many fingers towards that theory in this show yeah because maesters are

[02:09:56] referred to as gray rats sometimes yes and you see so many rats in this show there's also another reference which I won't say anything more about in the non-spoilery session about the rats but

[02:10:11] but that it also it does indicate that there is a maester conspiracy and also you see a little conflict between maester mellos and maester Orwell in this episode where Orwell wants to do a different treatment for Viserys' awful skin condition and right and mellos just blows him off

[02:10:38] and says no no no um right and uh so uh the theory is that the maesters hate anything to do uh with magic and dragons are magical creatures so the maesters wanted to eliminate the Targaryens dragons if not the Targaryens altogether um and so that's the maester

[02:11:08] conspiracy and this show is really throwing a great deal of potential evidence that at least in show canon there is a maester's conspiracy so George R. R. Martin was interviewed recently

[02:11:27] and he by the history of Westeros which is a great youtube channel about um all things a song of ice and fire and he said very clearly that he thinks that there is show canon and there

[02:11:41] is book canon yes and that they can be different um so if the show says there's definitely a maester's conspiracy that doesn't necessarily mean it's also true in the books but um it certainly

[02:11:58] is intriguing that they seem to be going that way in the show. What do you think about the high tower's involvement along with the maesters conspiracy since they live in the same spot

[02:12:12] and they seem to have the same kind of weird agenda what do you think about that? Yeah uh so you know in the main um a song of ice and fire novels um there there is a high tower

[02:12:32] who has been up in the top of his tower for years and years and years just reading books and he hasn't come down and he's been referred to a number of times that he's up there reading books

[02:12:42] and so many many readers think that he's going to come out and play a role in the last two books that he's going to have found things and it's going to know things that but nobody knows

[02:12:56] exactly what those things might be at this point okay um but definitely the high towers and the citadel are interconnected okay the high towers are kind of sponsors of the citadel

[02:13:11] yeah because they're in old town and high towers are the rulers of old town and by the way well they're sponsors of the citadel but they may not be entirely in court in accord with each

[02:13:23] other because the high tower itself has something of a magical history in its construction so it is said to be taller than the wall and it is said that from the top of the high tower you can

[02:13:38] actually see the wall which is hard to believe that that could literally be true um and the base of the high tower is made out of this oily stone oily black stone that other things within the world not just westeros but the world um which have potentially magical

[02:14:01] backgrounds and origins are also made out of so there's something unusual about the high tower itself interesting i have a couple of other things for the non-spoiler section yes good because i

[02:14:18] know i have something and i i feel like it's probably on your list too so please continue so one of them i have is just a small thing and that is that i have heard comments asking

[02:14:30] why allicent and reniera don't have ladies in waiting and i think the answer for that is you know you can't throw too many characters at us so it's just um keeping things simple for the

[02:14:43] show but in the books it's interesting that reniera takes her handmaids to drift mark when she sails on the sea snake to go get married and two of them are daughters of lionel strong sisters of harwin strong so she has a very thorough connection to the strong family

[02:15:10] because two of the hand the hand lionel strong the current hand in the king two of his daughters are her um handmaids and it's a just you know keep an eye on that familial connection

[02:15:25] and you don't see those characters in the show so okay the other the other much bigger one is the death of rey arroys yes is that the one you want to talk about rey ma yes ma'am yeah so it's very

[02:15:42] interesting that they choose to full on have daemon kill her in the show because in the book it's not suggested that he did um he was fighting in the stepstones when she had her accident which

[02:16:02] is only referred to as an accident um she fell from her horse and hit her head on a stone and um quote she lingered for nine days before she felt well enough to leave her bed and quote

[02:16:16] and then she collapsed and died within an hour of rising so she if she was well enough to leave her bed presumably she was well enough to tell someone if daemon had been the one who caused

[02:16:30] her accident and she didn't right um so when she died they sent a raven to storms and and uh lord baratheon dispatched a ship to take the news to daemon so it took a while for him to

[02:16:48] get the news and he flew um his dragon to storms and uh sorry to uh to the airy uh to put his wife to rest or more likely to lay claim to her inheritance and when he's on his way back

[02:17:06] to the stepstones he decides to stop off at drift driftmark to pay a visit to his old war buddy coreleys valerian and it's then that he encounters lana and he is very taken by lana um who has

[02:17:24] been betrothed since she was 12 she's now 22 she's been um betrothed since she was 12 to a son of the sea lord of bravos remember that was mentioned in the show right um but the sea lord died and the

[02:17:38] son turned out to be a waste roll so coreleys kept prop postponing the betrotel and it was mushroom who said that lana was almost as pretty as her brother and they give that line to daemon in

[02:17:55] the show and and they've moved up his encounter with her because it's a year after um reyna reyneera and um lana get married that rey roisteyes and daemon comes back because remember the

[02:18:14] serri's exiled him and in the show he just kind of comes back and says i yeah i know you exiled me but i'm here and i'm so wonderful you can't kick me out right um but in the um in the book

[02:18:27] he knows he's not welcome in west rose and so he figures you know one one person who will be willing to see him is coreleys so he goes to see coreleys and that's where

[02:18:40] he encounters lana they are playing a little with the timeline again which i think you know i'm okay with for the most part but uh i did think it was interesting the choice that they made based on

[02:18:51] that little sentence that we got about later lady rey as uh accident about how it crushed her in her skull i wasn't it mushroom that kind of alluded to the possibility that even though

[02:19:05] daemon wasn't present for that that he couldn't have been there that he could have sent someone to initiate the accident you know uh no i went back and read that section very carefully because

[02:19:20] i thought that that accusation was there but it's not there in the text so i actually think that's a fan theory okay okay that's fair so it's interesting then that since they've moved

[02:19:35] and played a little bit with the timeline then that daemon is actually present he's not in the stepstones that seems to be over i guess for now or and and i don't know how to come back but

[02:19:45] or if they're just done with it um but that that was interesting to say the least um i have my speculations as to why they did it this way but those speculations are not for the non-spoiler

[02:20:00] resection ah well then then we'll definitely get to that um well and i don't think this is a spoiler because it's it's from the show from from game of thrones but you know seeing what we

[02:20:11] what we got here in in house of the dragon and what daemon did to lady rey we know anyway what happened and others just assume it was the accident that she was thrown from her horse but

[02:20:24] and then we see that confrontation with lord uh roice there in the um in in the wedding festivities when he confronts daemon in the show if we remember lord yawn roice i'm not pronouncing

[02:20:39] that correctly um but he spoke out against john's plan uh with denaris targaryen on the basis what did he say a targaryen cannot be trusted yeah like that goes a long way that goes way back on his

[02:20:59] yeah roice's distrust of targaryens considering what daemon did um and again accusation for everyone else we we know it to be true at least for the show um but i thought that was interesting

[02:21:14] that yes that we had that um so agree yeah like we remember what you targaryens did we can't prove but we know what you did it's funny yeah um i i think we've had you have more i think before

[02:21:31] we move to the spoiler section no i i don't um at least for for this section um but i'm very interested to get into book spoilers all right well let's go ahead and move into our our heavy book spoilers

[02:21:45] so just as a warning for anyone if you you know don't want to know what happens beyond uh this episode then please skip ahead because because we're getting in it so with that being said uh

[02:21:57] reny please um your observations we were just talking about the difference in daemon's storyline you know he's not at reneera's wedding because viscerius had banished him he's back in the stepstones at that point it's a year after the wedding that rey roice dies and and he marries

[02:22:20] lana valerian um and he does it in the book as a way to stop the descent of status and fortune that he's experiencing in the seven kingdoms um but i think um bringing him back early and moving

[02:22:38] his meeting with lana works really well uh moving it earlier it works really well and it keeps his focus on reneera alive because the show really needs to continue to show us the connection between reneera and daemon since they're going to end up married um

[02:22:59] and as for why they um it decided to have daemon just flat out kill rey roice i think that they have to show us that he is someone who is capable of doing really horrendous things because he is probably the one

[02:23:20] who's responsible for blood and cheese right good and i think that that is the other thing that's going on with the rats um uh because we see we're seeing rats all the time and since cheese

[02:23:38] is a rat catcher um these are constant illusions and when you you saw the rat come and lap at um joffrey lounges blood on the ground i thought oh my gosh that there it is blood and cheese

[02:23:55] that you know the rat has come seeking cheese and has found blood yes thank you i i noticed that too and wondered if you thought that was also maybe a foreshadowing moment there for blood and cheese

[02:24:06] i think it definitely is yeah i i i can't believe they're gonna do it i think they're gonna do it i know i wasn't sure i mean i feel like something has to happen but i'm like if they carry this out like

[02:24:21] you know like that um i'm shocked i guess yeah i mean we'll see i guess we don't know but they they they certainly lead to it a lot yeah um so yeah daemon has to be both a monster

[02:24:37] and prince charming and amazingly i think they're managing they make him both yeah they are doing something i do not understand with daemon though and that is with his supposed sexual dysfunction um i the showrunner said that he never consummated his marriage with rea

[02:24:58] because of his impotence and that's also why he left ranira in the brothel and although he was getting it on with uh mesaria he couldn't finish um and this seems very strange to me because

[02:25:13] in the book he fathers six children with two different lives one of those children dies shortly after birth but he has five children who live you know for some amount of time yeah and there's no doubt whatsoever that he is the father of those children and it's really

[02:25:31] important in the targaryen succession because he and ranira all the subsequent targaryen monarchs descend from them exactly that's that's what i love because um the line you know here or that we that we get in the future anyway denaris um you know they're they're all from

[02:26:00] ranira and daemon yeah so i i love that yeah so yeah he does father children and it's and and i don't know if they'll address it you know why he's afflicted in some times and other

[02:26:17] times he's not i don't know but it is interesting yeah yeah because he's gonna father children with both lana and ranira so it isn't just that ranira is going to be the only person that

[02:26:33] he's ever sexually compatible with it can't be that um it so i don't know why they're i don't know why they're introducing this i guess we just have to keep watching and see um because uh

[02:26:50] it's something that isn't in the book at all and so there's no clue of what they're doing with it so i'm just i'm just keeping watching and trusting them and letting me take letting them take me on

[02:27:02] this ride yep same i'm just gonna trust for now i think i i'm happy with what they've done so far so i'll continue to trust yeah um the other thing that i think that they're doing really well

[02:27:18] in the show is how they're handling allicent's turn from being ranira's friend and supporter to becoming someone who can do the things that she will be doing in the future um and uh you know we started out with the relationship between ranira and allicent their friends

[02:27:45] allicent is quite sympathetic and allicent is gonna become someone capable of doing heinous things and uh i i think that they took the first step in driving her in that direction when her father

[02:28:03] auto terrorizes her by telling her that ranira will have to kill allicent's children and uh remember last time i said that in the book she's sort of a wicked stepmother yep did you notice that at the banquet she very pointedly calls ranira stepdaughter yes oh i forgot this

[02:28:27] yeah yeah wasn't that weird no she's it's a power play i i will continue to be interested in to see how they develop um allicent um and of course we're gonna get the time jump next time

[02:28:43] and uh there'll be the two different actors portraying ranira and and allicent and um it'll be interesting to see because i think it would be hard to see emily carrey turning into what allicent becomes the older actress may sell it better i think

[02:29:05] yeah it's because i'm still seeing emily carrey as very sweet and young and innocent so i'm really you know and that's just me personally speaking you know i think she's done a fantastic job not to

[02:29:22] discredit yes you know how how much she has brought to the character of allicent yes but yeah i think it would be hard for me to see her turn like she's going to turn

[02:29:33] and the terrible things that she's going to do yeah uh from her i i i want to keep emily carrey a sweet place in my heart for just remove her from that let's bring on the older actress and

[02:29:45] that way i can despise her i agree um so um we have the ten-year time jump and they're jumping over quite a bit that happens in those ten years but i'm not too worried that we're gonna miss out

[02:30:03] on much um since they've been playing with the timeline they can continue to play with it and i looked and so far in the first five episodes we have covered 25 book pages which is about five

[02:30:18] pages per episode wow and i think that we will probably get aamons fight with raneira's sons i'm not ready um in episode six and if that's the case we will have skipped over about five pages

[02:30:38] isn't that crazy it's crazy yeah oh man i don't i don't think i'm ready but i think you're right i think based on what i saw from the preview and i hope it's okay to talk about here christin

[02:30:48] i don't know if you've seen the preview um because that's all that i've seen i don't know anything ahead of that um yeah i think you're right i think we're gonna see that that confrontation that first

[02:30:59] one that kind of starts to spark things a little bit yeah which involves a dragon yes well and a dragon we have not yet seen yeah finally it's gonna yeah there's that

[02:31:17] and then also uh it looks like we're gonna get vagar that's the dragon that it that's involved yeah okay i thought i thought there was a different one in the um i don't they're not in i don't think

[02:31:34] it's like the dungeon wherever they were the closed is that vagar that we see i don't know if that if i don't know i haven't watched the trailers very closely um well i hope i'm not spoiling anything for

[02:31:49] you no no no i mean i know what's gonna happen right because i've read the book but um i just i just haven't looked closely enough at the trailers to try to figure out which dragon is is which

[02:32:04] like i had seen the scene where lanor and the stepstones rides seasmoke and um burns that line of it you know enemy soldiers i'd seen that in the trailer several times i had no idea that was seasmoke

[02:32:19] so yeah well in the flash that we got in the trailer at least from i i try not to keep watching them over and over again i watch it like the one time after the episode airs and i try not to

[02:32:29] go back to it again i just get that brief flash and what i saw it was hard to tell who which dragon it was supposed to be if it's a new dragon that we haven't seen yet or if it's uh one that we have

[02:32:40] seen so it was hard for me but there was um a scene um that showed a dragon i'm just not sure who it was supposed to be but i do think we got a pretty good shot there at vagar that

[02:32:53] that we saw yeah um daemon with craxies and lana with vagar the only thing i think i might be sad about is if we don't get to see you know vagar and lana bonding and lana i know and there is an

[02:33:09] adult or an older actor cast to play lana right yes but she's probably only gonna be in one episode so that's kind of too bad yeah i don't know i guess it'll be interesting to see how they handle it but

[02:33:24] i i'm yeah so excited to finally meet vagar well all the dragons all the dragons um whether we've seen them or not but to finally get to see vagar after all the all the talk and knowing that

[02:33:34] it's at this time point in time the oldest living dragon yes so and and and especially since we should have seen vagar back when lana was 12 yes when um it was proposed that she'd be a

[02:33:50] possible bride for the series because she already was riding vagar at that point exactly exactly yeah we're behind we gotta get some some catch up on on vagar and man from the from the trailer

[02:34:04] it was a very quick very quick flash uh yeah they're gonna it's gonna be what we want she's she is mighty from the very little we got she is mighty so i can't wait good um so yeah i

[02:34:25] there's just one final thing that i kind of have a reflection on and that is we have both auto and reynice uh saying that the realm would not accept reyneera as queen but you know we never

[02:34:43] really get to find out whether that would have been the case if auto and allicent and christin cole hadn't out and out usurped reyneera's throne by leaving poor the seris to rot right

[02:34:59] in order to keep it mum that he died right so that they could crown agon the second if they hadn't done that if they had immediately announced that the seris died so that reyneera could have been

[02:35:13] crowned properly she would have had all the houses um that support her in the civil war they would have been her supporters um plus probably several other houses that wouldn't dare rebel and so in effect auto fulfills his own prophecy that the realm won't accept her

[02:35:35] by carrying out that usurpation that is so true we never got the chance to see it yeah wow that's a really good observation and you know i think that's important to keep in mind when you're thinking about whether or not west rose would have accepted denaris as queen

[02:36:01] so you know obviously it went one way in the show but it's necessarily going to go differently in the books because there's another character in the books who's just not in the show um

[02:36:14] who is another potential sargarian claimant to the throne and that all has to be worked out i'm very interested to see what will happen in winds of winter and adrew spring the last two

[02:36:29] books uh in the show one day but you know when we first started i said that um the dance the dragons is suggested by a real event in the history of england which was called the anarchy

[02:36:43] where um uh the the heir was a woman matilda but she was usurped by her oh my gosh i can't remember if he's your cousin or her nephew steven of law um and uh that's that's exactly what

[02:37:04] happened in the anarchy is that before um matilda could be crowned steven and his faction usurped her and so georgia martin is following that bit of real history in um the way that the

[02:37:24] dance the dragons plays out as well interesting any other spoiler observations that you want to talk about no that was it for my observations this time so good um gosh i i think we covered most of

[02:37:42] mine i how did you like though uh how hard when strong kept popping up here and there i feel like enough for us to be like there he is there he is but not for the show watchers maybe not

[02:37:54] picking up i know if you're a show only person i imagine you think he's not all that's significant at this point oh my goodness the way that he like his you know his father lionel

[02:38:06] kind of gives him like that nod to like go ahead and he just yeah we get to see break bones in action and oh my word um dad did not disappoint uh you know the whole strong family is kind of very subtly

[02:38:23] coming to the four in the show because we saw laris talking to allicent about the the plant that is indigenous bravos but here it is thriving in king's landing which is clearly a metaphorical

[02:38:38] reference to allicent herself yeah um and you know so he's working his way in and then um you saw laris and harwin talking to each other at the wedding it's the two of them who have that conversation

[02:38:55] about the color of the high tower beacon being being green and then um lionel gives harwin the nod to go take care of raniera and it's a family that is really tight with each other which is

[02:39:13] interesting because they want all necessarily be on the same side going forward yeah it's going to be interesting to see how they decide to navigate that based on what and of course one of the things

[02:39:29] that is said in fire and blood is that one of the great mysteries of the dance of the dragons was which side was laris strong on yeah he's a tough one to figure out i know it was never clear to me

[02:39:41] in the book so i wonder if they'll clear that up a little because they they've done i think a good job of kind of filling in the blanks you know uh so far so i wonder if they'll decide to do that or

[02:39:55] maybe not maybe they'll leave it kind of ambiguous and you know oh and maybe he's playing both sides could be whichever side suits him in the moment maybe you know one of the things i'm really

[02:40:09] curious about is if hbo gives them all the seasons that they want how far do they want to go with this where's their stopping place yeah i'll have it it's well that's what i let them have what they want

[02:40:25] take it all the way you know and i was thinking about because we've talked before about who are the good guys who can you root for and towards the end of fire and blood as the you know as the aftermath

[02:40:41] of the civil war plays out there is one person you can totally root for and that's alan velaryon who is kind of the sea snake coming in you know um and uh so i was thinking you could have a whole

[02:40:57] season that is just focused on the adventures of alan velaryon while agon the third is growing to maturity and under the protection of his very bad regents and you know just waiting to come of age right i

[02:41:15] would watch it i'm here for it they're doing a fantastic job so far so i say uh as long as they want to keep going yep yep i'll keep watching same well i i think that's great did you have any

[02:41:34] any other notes or points that you wanted to talk about ready i don't well i i think that was great so so much goodness i knew this one was going to be a great one uh to dive into which they all

[02:41:46] are because it's fascinating but boy we really got some good stuff to to sink our teeth into uh with differences um from the book and things they changed or um uh you know fleshed out i should say

[02:42:01] and then of course the spoilers so as always thank you again so much uh reny for your time and i look forward thank you for having me well of course as always um and i look forward to

[02:42:13] hearing from you next week all right thank you thank you well next week we'll be covering season one episode six of house of the dragon titled the princess and the queen yes and you can always leave feedback on our front podcastica facebook page uh we post weekly

[02:42:37] feedback threads or you can leave feedback by email dragon castica at gmail.com um yeah well be sure that you go out and leave a review and please subscribe that's the important part subscribe

[02:42:53] to dragon cast on apple podcast that helps people find us um and it really helps our numbers we really want to make sure other people can find us um and we would really appreciate that so

[02:43:04] thank you in advance um you can find dragon cast and a bunch of other great podcasts at podcastica.com and there's a lot of really good podcasts out there right now on um the podcastica network

[02:43:17] there's a lot of good tv out right now and everybody everybody that hosts the show on podcastica they are phenomenal they they know their stuff they come prepared um you just

[02:43:30] can't go wrong so true yeah a lot handmade's tale just started up so you can listen in and on handmade's tale she helped um the the new lord of the rings um show um tales of the walking dead

[02:43:45] yeah there's something for everyone check them all out everyone's brilliant definitely agreed um so before we wrap this up we are going to just tell you that if you're looking for book talk

[02:43:57] you're just going to want to hang to the end of the show and it's just gonna you can just leave it playing and it'll go right into book talk um i had some major audio issues during this time

[02:44:11] so you will not hear me for a good half of it but the discussion is awesome because i got to just sit back and listen to rima and renny talk about the book and i'm so glad that i didn't

[02:44:23] interject because their conversation was really rich and every single time that i was like yeah me too it just would have lessened it so um it's already it is already well she's phenomenal we're

[02:44:36] very very lucky to have her um come in and do book talk with us i feel like i get to know the story even more um you know and even though i do i know the book i know the story he brings this

[02:44:51] other level to it and yeah rima you and your book knowledge has just been so so phenomenal this entire season um i've really enjoyed listening to you and to renny and i just feel thankful that i'm able

[02:45:04] to just be a part of it you know even if i'm just listening well same same i'm just happy to be here so but thank you thank you so much um but you know we're gonna fix that so we can

[02:45:17] we're gonna fix that so we can make sure that you can um be more contributing instead of just a listener so i will i will definitely have a stable um connection next week and the week after so

[02:45:30] you're you haven't heard the last of me that's for sure thank goodness hopefully um yeah so that's our show thank you so much for listening everyone until next time i'm rima and i'm christin dracarys