House of the Dragon S3E7 "The Dragon in Winter"

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[00:01:15] Hey everybody, I'm Wendy. I'm Rennie. And I'm Veronica. And this is Dragoncast, a podcast dedicated to House of the Dragon. This week we're discussing Season 3, Episode 7 of House of the Dragon, The Dragon in Winter. So odd. I swear, I saw it listed as something else. The title. It was like The Hunt. Oh, interesting. Yeah, or Hunted.

[00:01:45] I wonder if they had originally given it a different title. Yeah, I think it was on... I think it must have been on IMDB or Wikipedia. Um, but then when I went to re-watch the episode, then it had the actual name. Hmm. Yeah. That's weird. Welcome back, Wendy. Yeah. I just listened to your podcast last night and this morning. It was great.

[00:02:14] It was great to hear David. Great to hear everybody. Yeah, David was fun to have on. Yeah. I can tell he really... This is close to his heart. Yeah. All right. What did we think of The Dragon in Winter? Well, Veronica and I had texted a little bit. We're so far off the book, you can't even see the book from here.

[00:02:44] Yeah. Yeah. I thought that's fun, though. There were things that I really, really liked. Same. I think it was fun and there were surprises and, yeah, I was excited to get on today and talk to you guys about it. Yeah. Yeah. A lot of dreaming. Yes. In the episode, which I liked. And normally, I don't like it.

[00:03:14] Like, normally, if it's too much dreaming, I'm like, I don't want to not live in reality. But these were really good. Yeah. I can't wait to hear you guys' thoughts and interpretations and stuff. Like, I feel like there's fun things to speculate about. Yes. And, Veronica, you got to see Kristen Cole's head on a pike. Yep. I didn't. Did you miss it? I didn't see it. You missed it? Yeah.

[00:03:44] Yeah, the winter wolves were carrying it on a pike when they were marching. Oh, my gosh, you guys, I missed it completely. He still had one of the arrows near his eye. It was just a quick shot as the army was marching, but there it was, his head on a pike. Like, I'm gonna have to go back and watch again.

[00:04:09] I did watch twice, but I have such a hard time watching for podcasts because I'm, like, often jotting down notes. Yeah. And usually the first time I don't take notes, but I must have missed it the first time, naturally. I'm so upset with myself. Well, at least I have something fun to go, like, look for again. That's right. Luckily, you can go see it now. So. Well, funny.

[00:04:39] All right. Who wants to go first? I could, if that's okay with everybody. Yeah. Yeah. Well, you all want to guess what my first point is? Dragons! Yeah. Correct. I could literally hear you saying that. We had so much in my head during this episode. Dragons! So much. This was one of the best dragon episodes. Right? So many dragons. So many dragons. Mm-hmm.

[00:05:08] And we got to see, so I have, like, some sub points in here. Sub point number one is Dreamfire! Yay! This is the first time we got to see Helena's dragon, Dreamfire. It was only in a dream that we saw it, but still. Yes. I mean, but. We got to see her, Dreamfire. Wow. Wow, wow, wow. Yes. And she had those, like, horn-like, antler-like protrusions on her head, so she looked quite different from the other dragons.

[00:05:36] I thought that was great. Mm-hmm. And I also thought it was very interesting what Helena said. Yes. So in the book, Helena loves riding Dreamfire, but we've never seen her ride Dreamfire in the show or heard her talk about riding Dreamfire. So I thought the conversation she had with Rhaenyra about the dragons was very interesting because she said when she's with Dreamfire, it's too much.

[00:06:04] And I thought that could either mean that the dreams become too much when she's with Dreamfire or that Dreamfire affects her personality too much or both of those things. Yeah. Helena believes that dragons alter people. She asks Rhaenyra, you have six dragons now. Aren't you altered?

[00:06:27] So I thought that was a very interesting commentary on dragons. I'm really glad they included that because the Helena we kind of have come to know, it doesn't seem like that would be somebody who would harness a dragon. Yes. Yes. So I'm glad they included that. And I love that we're getting more of Helena. She's so interesting to me.

[00:06:57] Mm-hmm. Yeah. And I think Fia Saban, who plays the part, is doing a great job. Mm-hmm. Absolutely. Yeah. Okay. Dragon second set point. Ground battle. Oh, my gosh. That was wild. That hurt me. And it made me feel very not ready for the rest of the show. Yeah. Because it hurt me. Yeah.

[00:07:26] So it seems like the dragons are acting on their rider's emotions. Mm-hmm. But not on the rider's rational commands. Ooh. That they give them. Yeah. Yeah. Raina can't control Sheepstealer at all, but the other dragons aren't really under control either. Mm-hmm. It was very interesting in the Inside the Episode segment, Clinton Liberty, who plays Adam,

[00:07:56] said, when it gets really ugly, the dragons have a mind of their own, and they're the ones in control, which adds another element of danger for everybody. I was so mad at the people. Like, stop fighting in front of your dragons. What are you doing? I know. Idiots. Yeah. I really recommend watching The House That Dragons Built, which is the behind-the-scenes featurette that they have on HBO. It's also on YouTube.

[00:08:26] That shows how they filmed that sequence. They actually had somebody there in a blue suit with a dragon head, giving the actors the eyeline of where to look. And in that, Ryan Condal said, we wanted our characters to be in a Godzilla movie with all these kaijus stomping around. And the writer said they wanted to do something different from the aerial battles of Seasons

[00:08:54] 1 and 2, so they thought up this ground battle. And it is different from anything we've seen the dragons do before. But I was really scared that one of those dragons was going to get killed. Same. I mean, I thought Cyrax was gone at first. Yeah. Right. That was the one that Brian kept telling me it was Caraxes, but I knew it was Rhaenyra's dragon. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:09:22] Caraxes is redder and Cyrax is more goldish. Yeah. Caraxes got that snake neck. Yeah. The snakey neck. Yeah. And poor Sheepstealer. And one of the things that I thought was that Caraxes and Daemon have the closest bond of all, because Daemon tells Caraxes to kill Sheepstealer, and Caraxes goes after Sheepstealer,

[00:09:48] but then Daemon falls off and Caraxes stops pursuing Sheepstealer to come back and boop Daemon and check in on him and make sure he's okay. I mean, he's probably spent the most time. Sorry. They're the only ones that have really been in battles together and done just a lot. And he's older than all the other dragon riders. Right? Yeah. Daemon, yeah. Daemon.

[00:10:17] Daemon, not Caraxes, but Daemon is older. Yeah, Daemon is older. That's right. So he's been riding many more years. In the book at this point, Daemon is 49. So yeah, he is the oldest of the dragon riders. And of those four dragons, Sheepstealer is the biggest. Yes. Is that right? Yeah. That's right. Yeah. Because Sheepstealer's the only other dragon, and Caraxes is also a large dragon.

[00:10:44] They're the only two who have any chance of taking on Vhagar. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Unless you fight yourselves first. Wait, no, Vermithor. Hugh has Vermithor, which is Hugh. Oh, yeah, that's right. Sorry, sorry, sorry. I was trying to think, isn't there another one? Yeah, Vermithor. Yeah. Yeah, Vermithor is the, so the dragons in order of size are Vhagar first, Vermithor second. Yeah.

[00:11:14] Okay. And then Silverwing or Caraxes, they're both similarly pretty. Like Silverwing is still a decently large dragon? Yes. Silverwing is, you know, an older dragon. She's old, right? But she's not as large as Vermithor. Right. Yeah. Yeah. And who's riding Seasmoke? Adam Valerion. Or Adam, not Valerion. Yeah. Adam Hall. Adam wannabe Valerion. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:11:45] It was a fantastic battle. It was. It was. And then we get one last dragon. Ha, ha, ha. Sunfire's not dead. Oh, so fabulous. So, so happy. I could watch it a million times. Wendy, behind your back in book talk, Veronica and I have been saying over and over, when are they just going to give up and admit that Sunfire's not dead? Yeah. And they finally did. Yeah. I knew it was coming.

[00:12:15] Yeah. You know? But it didn't make it any less fabulous. Right? Yes. And it's so good. You could hear Sunfire walking up behind him before Aegon seemed to realize that he was there and turned around and looked. Mm-hmm. I did have a moment, though, where I was like, is it Vhagar or is it going to be Sunfire? Yeah. Like, just for a moment, right?

[00:12:37] Because even though Vhagar's huge, like, she's hidden herself before in, like, wooded areas like that. Yeah. So, yeah. Yeah. So, I think Sunfire reappears when Aegon truly becomes a dragon, you know, a human Targaryen dragon, because he stands up and says, oh, I am Aegon Targaryen, blah, blah, blah. And he's ready to die.

[00:13:06] I mean, he thinks he's going to die. Yeah. Yeah. And he's like, I'm going to die as a king on my feet, sword in hand. Yeah. So, good for Aegon. Right? And we finally get to see the burn side of Sunfire's face. Remember, he was lying on that side of his face, so we didn't see it. But now we see the burn side of his face. And they're matching with their little burn faces. They match. It was pretty wild looking. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:13:35] So, in Inside the Episode, Tom Glyn Carney, who plays Aegon, said, Sunfire coming back is a miracle. Aegon transcends into this kind of phoenix. But please show, do not try to make him sympathetic. Don't do a Rhaenyra descends, Aegon ascends thing, because Aegon's still a monster. I don't think they are.

[00:14:04] But that is exactly what I felt. I felt like no one was winning in this episode except for Aegon. Yeah. Yes. Like, the blacks and the greens both are not doing well. No. But Aegon's doing pretty well. Yeah. Yes. Okay, that was my dragon point.

[00:14:34] I just have a little point about that. Yeah. I got something stuck in my head and I couldn't get it out. So I had to go back to Episode 5, which was unbowed and unbroken, I believe. Mm-hmm. When Aemond is dreaming and he dreams of Aegon yelling and laughing. Mm-hmm.

[00:15:00] And at the time when that happened, I thought he was remembering Aegon falling and what he did to Aegon. But it's not. It's not. It's this scene. Wow. It's exactly. Interesting. The yelling and the maniacal laughing, which, my goodness, Tom, such a great job. And I just had it in my brain, so I had to go back and play them side by side.

[00:15:29] And they're exactly the same. It was so good. Good catch. That's a good catch. So that means Aemond, that was a premonition. He saw that or dreamed it before it happened. But is that because he's Aemond or is that because Alice? Right. I think it's Alice. Right? Yeah. I kind of think so, too. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:16:02] I can sort of just, like, piggyback off of that because my first point was, like, go Team Green, question mark? Because in that moment, I had the, like, I was, like, cheering for Aegon and Sunfire. And then I was, like, ah, ah, like, wait, but he's burning up Rhaenyra's forces. And I was, like, wow. Wow. Mm-hmm. That's wild.

[00:16:27] But I had that same moment of cheering for Aegon and being really happy for him. And I think that was also built on by Daeron continuing to be just a respectable young man who, my God, wouldn't he actually be a good king? Because he isn't concerned with being a king.

[00:16:52] He just doesn't want to do the shitty thing and leave his men behind, even though he's not even really the one leading them. So then there was Daeron, who I'm like, man, like, maybe that would be good for the realm. And then I have to say, like, I don't blame Ulf. If I was treated the way Ulf was treated, I'd go and consider joining forces with the Greens, too.

[00:17:23] And so I sort of love. Yeah. They haven't given him any reason to be loyal. They've been nothing but mean to him. And they, maybe they created this event wherein people could be exposed to a dragon to tame, but he had a dragon claim him as he ran away.

[00:17:42] Like, it's not like they've done him this huge favor in any way and they've done nothing but be mean to him. Yeah. And I can't blame them. I can't blame them. Yeah. Yep. And so I'm not saying I'm team green, but I just found myself at more than one moment this episode feeling.

[00:18:11] I also want to say that I have not forgiven Aegon of the atrocious man that he has been. And I actually don't think they're playing a full redemption arc based on, despite like that I loved that he was laughing and thought it was appropriate given what he was just going through. Yeah. He was about to die.

[00:18:34] I do think that shows that he is maybe had some character growth, but is still going to probably be a bit of the shit he was before, maybe slightly evolved. But like, I don't think it's a full Aegon redemption, but I don't know. I don't know that anybody's going to get a full redemption. Right. I don't. I don't. I do think that Aegon believes.

[00:19:01] I think at this point he absolutely believes what Alicent told him that Viserys did change his mind and did want Aegon to be king. And he believes that and he believes him of all people has the best claim to be king. Yeah. And so, and he came to that very reluctantly, but now he's fully embraced it.

[00:19:30] Well, and he's like, if I have to go through all this bullshit, I should be king. Right? It's like, okay. I almost like Game of Thrones, you know, season three where there's like five kings around. Yeah. That's almost where we're at because it was interesting to me to hear Daemon talk about being the king. And I'm like, aren't you forgetting? I mean, even if they think Aegon is dead, that doesn't make Daemon the king. Nope.

[00:20:00] He's king consort. Yeah. Yeah. But I mean, I guess Aemon's gone and somebody's got to step up. I don't know. I just thought he seemed to embrace that pretty quickly. Oh, you said Aemon, not Daemon. Daemon. You didn't say Daemon. Daemon, you know. Oh, I meant Daron. I'm sorry. Let me start. Oh, Daron. Yeah. Yeah. That makes more sense. Yeah. Daron. Yeah.

[00:20:30] All those names. Yeah. It did. Yeah. But it was Daron who just seemed to accept that he was the king and there's, you know, he's got two brothers in front of him. Right. And, yeah. And his sister. Yeah. Yeah. Two sisters. I was going to say two sisters. Because Daron's the youngest. Yep. So Helena and Rhaenyra are both older than he is. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:20:59] I think that boy just does whatever his uncle, uncle cousin. Cousin. Yeah. Ormond is his cousin. I think he just does whatever his cousin tells him. Gwaine is his uncle. Ormond is his cousin. It was really, I mean, I have more things that I could say about that. Aegon and company, but that was kind of it in terms of my point of just like, am I agreeing now? I dig a. Okay.

[00:21:31] I was going to talk a little bit about Helena's dreams. Yeah. Helena dreams that she goes out into the courtyard. It looked like King's Landing and it's a beautiful white horse with a wagon. I think they called it a gray mare in the subtitles, but it looked white to me. Oh, they called it a gray mare. That's interesting.

[00:21:55] But I was seeing something online that like all white horses are actually gray or something. Oh, yes. That's right. And so maybe that's why. Yeah. But in the Song of Ice and Fire context, it's a pale mare. Pale mare. Death represents death. Oh. And also, I saw someone online also equating that to Arya in the final.

[00:22:25] It was either in the final episode or the one before that where she sees the horse and takes off on the horse after the bells and after Daenerys burns. Oh, yeah. Oh, yes. Yes, yes. Yeah. I had forgotten that. Yeah. I saw somebody online talking about that. But she opens the doors and sees this super bright light. I don't know if that's sunlight or that's Dreamfire. Not sure.

[00:22:57] And later she dreams about having her baby and it's the baby's immediately taken away, obviously, by the blacks, I would assume. It's a king's guard who takes the baby. Yeah. The person's in king's guard armor. Yeah. Then she sees herself astride Dreamfire burning those in her way.

[00:23:19] And after that, she kind of sees herself in this idyllic farm setting with her two children and the same horse and her chickens, of course, that she talked about. Yes. So it's almost like, is that dream telling her that in order to get to that idyllic freedom, she's going to need to become a dragon rider again? I kind of thought that's what the dream was saying.

[00:23:49] Maybe. I think that's a solid interpretation. But one more thing happens when she's in that idyllic setting, which is snowfalls. Yes. Winter is coming. And it sounds like the White Walkers in a sense. And so I took it as she'd have to do what you said, Wendy, but then also that her idyllic ending comes at a cost to all of humanity, I guess.

[00:24:17] Or is she the person who needs to know about the Song of Ice and Fire? I don't know. I don't know. But I really thought that was great. I love seeing more of Helena. Yes. This was really a Helena episode. Yeah. I thought Rhaenyra treated her badly. Bad. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:24:43] Rhaenyra almost, I don't know, just desperately, not realistically wanting her to somehow give her assurances. And how would she know that she could do that? Yeah. She's just taking it from something that Alicent said, I guess. Rhaenyra's just putting a lot of stock in Helena being a dreamer. Yeah. I think she's just desperate. Yeah. That too.

[00:25:13] And she's so focused on that, like, divine providence that she's so desperate for the validation of that. Yeah. Yep. She's kind of, she's definitely losing focus. Yeah. Yep. I hope we see more of her. Is that it, Wendy? Yep. Yeah, because that moves right into my next point, which is Rhaenyra and Massaria the Usurper. Oh, okay. Yeah.

[00:25:42] So Massaria is driving a wedge between Rhaenyra and Daemon, and Rhaenyra recognizes that, but she seems to be letting Massaria do it because she's so desperate. But Sylvie, when she's in the throne room with Massaria, really spells out what Massaria is up to and how she's changed. She says that the dress that Massaria is wearing is worth more than a year of what Sylvie can earn.

[00:26:12] And so she's not really the champion of the small folk anymore. And then Massaria really proves that by saying, be gone to Sylvie. I'm done with you. She's acting a lot like Rhaenyra has been acting, very high and mighty.

[00:26:30] And so I had a thought, which is if being around literal dragons changes dragon riders, then maybe being around a Targaryen dragon rider changes ordinary people like Massaria.

[00:26:49] So I think in this episode, Rhaenyra learns that she can't trust Daemon or Massaria nor WWVD. That is what would Viserys do? So all of her guideposts are really gone from her and she's lost.

[00:27:12] In the inside the episode, Emma Darcy said it's become increasingly important to Rhaenyra to know that her rule has been preordained. And they said that they talked with Ryan Condal about Rhaenyra's descent into tyranny and said it felt super important to do it in a way that felt very legible.

[00:27:34] It felt like an opportunity to take this relatively sympathetic character and use her to explore something about the corrupting nature of power. And I thought that was really interesting because we are really seeing Rhaenyra just get worse and worse every episode.

[00:27:53] And then she allows herself to be seduced by Massaria, even though she knows she can't really trust her. So I think that Rhaenyra is just kind of floundering and desperate and in need of... Even if she knows that Massaria is flattering her, she's going to let herself fall for it. She was going with the person that said what she wanted to hear.

[00:28:23] Yes, which is the opposite of what Aegon did last week. Yeah. That's why I'm worried about that Aegon rises, Rhaenyra falls arc. Yeah. Arc, because I'm fine with Rhaenyra falling, but I'm not so good with Aegon rising. I'm never going to be sympathetic to him any more than Veronica was ever sympathetic to Kristen Cole.

[00:28:48] It's funny how I have become worse, but also it's also entertaining. Like Aegon has been very entertaining the last few episodes. In fact, when they first showed him, I said to my husband, shh, shh, shh, my show's on. Like he didn't have that much screen time, but boy, did he shine. Yes.

[00:29:14] But yes, Rhaenyra's just looking for someone to tell her what she wants to hear. I mean, she's basically demanding that Helena tell her that yes, she's preordained by God to rule, but she's just showing such a lack of confidence in herself.

[00:29:36] And, you know, there's a weird thing going on here, which is what has preordained her to rule is Viserys' belief that she's the one to take the prophecy forward. And that prophecy is from a Valyrian dragon dream. But Rhaenyra is upset because the Septon won't anoint her. And she keeps talking about the gods.

[00:30:05] And I don't think she's talking about the Valyrian gods. I think she's talking about the seven. And that doesn't really make a lot of sense. Why should she care about whether or not she's ordained by the seven? Because what has ordained her is the Valyrian prophecy. So I think the writing is a little bit muddy there. Yeah, I agree.

[00:30:30] And I do think as much as Viserys made her the heir, he also tried to inject some realism in her. He was the one who always said it's an illusion. Yes. Their control is an illusion. Mm-hmm. So you've chosen to be the heir. She could have relinquished it. It probably would have been the easier course. Mm-hmm. But she's chosen to do this.

[00:30:59] So she needs to step up and lead. Yeah. That'll be next year. Yeah, that was it for me. All right, Veronica. Let's go talk about Oedipus Targaryen. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Because, wow.

[00:31:28] I think at one point Alice says all these Targaryen men want the same thing. They're mamas. She didn't say they're mamas. But she's not wrong. So I definitely, from the moment he first saw Alicent in that first scene, expected that that was actually Alice, which it turned out to be.

[00:31:53] But then when Alicent really did show up, it took a while, obviously, for Aamond to accept it. But it also took a minute for me to decide if it was really her. And obviously, Alice had seen her coming because she not only gave him the vision, but the vision of her dress and exactly what she was wearing. And exactly what she said. Yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah.

[00:32:21] So Alice has some very powerful sight abilities. We continue to see. I can't tell you how relieved I was when she morphed from Alicent into Alice. I thought, oh, I'm so glad that wasn't really Alicent. I mean, as soon as they start, I suspected it from the beginning of the scene.

[00:32:51] But then as soon as they started kissing and Alicent wasn't having that same obvious recoil. I was like, okay, no, this is definitely not her. But yes, was very glad it was definitely, definitely confirmed that it was not her. But then the rest of this sort of played out a bit like the sitcom episode with him with his mother, you know, and Alice at the dinner table.

[00:33:21] And he's trying to hold both their hands. And she's, who is this woman right in front of Alice? Yes. And then later, that was an awkward dinner. She's not my friend, mom. When she says your friend. And like, I thought all of that was quite comical, sort of like mixed into haunted Harrenhal, which was fun and interesting.

[00:33:47] Still a big pill to swallow, I think, to envision that Alicent got to Harrenhal this quickly without any disruption to her travel. And still looking like she just stepped out of the American Girl doll store with that get up. Yeah. And then at the end, her leaving.

[00:34:14] And how is she just going to trot back? I saw some good memes that just had her like traveling by Mario pipe between King's Landing and Harrenhal. But I am a little. Right. She's completely alone. She's completely alone. And, you know, she came in on a horse, but she didn't like go to the stable and get the horse or anything. I don't know what she's going to do. And she thinks that she's killed him.

[00:34:45] Yes. And I wouldn't do everything about it was so dumb. Yeah. I mean, one, like she just happened to look up and there's the, is it nightshade, I'm assuming? Nightshade. And then she just brings him in spiced wine. And after being warned by Alice that he should fear her, he still drinks it. I did love the like clothes of Alice just looking at him and saying, idiot. Idiot. I know.

[00:35:09] I mean, I, I can't believe she would physically kill her own child. And I'm sure he didn't believe it either. Like he, he said she has secrets. She doesn't keep them very well. But he still thought that she would never do that. Mm hmm. I, you know.

[00:35:38] I thought in the first dream that Alice was giving him that dream so that they could have sex. Yes. And Alice wants a baby. Yes. Mm hmm. Yeah. That's why I thought. And that's who. And she said in this moment, I'm giving you a son. Yeah. Yeah. And that's who Eamon is obviously hot for. Yes. Yes. Yeah.

[00:36:08] Yeah. Well, I guess I did. I did wonder a little bit whether there, there was a, whether enough had happened that she could actually be getting pregnant there. Yeah. It seemed that he woke up. It seemed like he stopped things. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Maybe they'll have some more time. I'm bending over backwards here not to be too graphic. Maybe it is what it is. Did Eamon get off or did he not? Yeah.

[00:36:38] I could not tell. Same. I don't know. I, I just, I didn't love this. I did. I was trying to decide if we gained anything from Allison going to Harrenhal. Yeah. That's a good question. Like we already knew she was willing to do pretty drastic things.

[00:37:08] I'm Wendy. I didn't think she would have, but. Does it change your full opinion of her? Does it change how we feel about Eamon? Could this have been accomplished simply through a few of these dreamlike sequences of showing he's still tied up? No, I, I agree with you. Like, like worse. It just felt like. Same place except Allison's in the middle of nowhere by herself. Yeah. Without her.

[00:37:35] And we have to suspend disbelief about her travel. Yeah. Mm-hmm. I don't know. I. Oh, they're really getting into late season Game of Thrones fast travel across great distances. We have dragons. It's okay for the dragon riders, but like. Sure.

[00:37:58] It's just without a real like advancement of the plot or change of like character arcs. Why are they having us be. Yeah. I'm a little frustrated by it. The worst fast travel thing so far has been John Roxton going and kidnapping Corlys, who Corlys is just outside of King's Landing.

[00:38:25] And we just heard from Kat how long it takes to get from King's Landing to Tumbleton. But John Roxton seemed to have got there instantaneously. Ancestally. Day. Right. So, yeah. So. They take liberties. I do think this series suffers from not enough episodes. Yeah. Oh, definitely. Yeah. No question. Yeah.

[00:38:52] That's the biggest thing I hear is that. It's so fast. Mm-hmm. Everything happens so quickly. Yeah. Yeah. And yet they do things that seem like wasting time, like this whole let's send Alice in Taron Hall thing, which wasn't really necessary. Yeah. Unless something happens next week that makes it make sense. I don't know. But it's also a cheaper scene, right? It's just a couple people wandering around an old castle. No dragons. Right.

[00:39:23] And where's Vhagar? Right. I think Alice hasn't hidden, right? Yeah. Who knows? She. Vhagar's a. Vhagar's a she. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I think Alice has her hidden somehow. Or a block. Because that's what Aemon's saying. Because Vhagar has been burning things out, you know. Yeah. Adam and Bela found the evidence that Vhagar had been burning things.

[00:39:52] So, I think Vhagar, I think Alice sent her away and she's just out wandering by herself. Yeah. All right. What? Are they setting up a love triangle between the Valerian brothers and Bela? I don't like that at all. They certainly are. And I don't know why they're doing that. I heard you guys talking about it on the podcast last week.

[00:40:19] And I was like, this is before I watched this week's episode. And I was like, no, they're not doing that. And then this episode hits. And I'm like, okay, yeah. They are. Yeah. I don't like that. Like, what's. I feel like they're just like, let's pass Bela from every male in the family is going to have a love interest with her. I do like Bela and Alan together, though. Yeah. Really? Yes. I don't. Yes. I just don't.

[00:40:49] It feels really fast. Yeah. It does feel fast. I think Adam will be fine and he'll find somebody else. He's just so chipper. He's pretty chipper. But Alan really needs somebody. Yeah. Alan needs somebody special. That's just my two cents worth. Fair. Alan seems like just such a, I mean, they both seem like really good men. Well, and Alan is really sort of coming into his own.

[00:41:17] He's really taking Corlys' place on the small council and he's, you know, he's going out and talking to Corlys and counseling patients. And he's very rational. He's like the only adult in King's Landing at the moment. Yes. And I do think Rhaenyra likes him and thinks a lot of him. And I think she will legitimize him, just not like in the middle of a war. Yeah.

[00:41:46] And that seems reasonable. Well, he thinks it's reasonable. So. Yeah. It's only hothead Daddy Corlys who doesn't. Yeah. Well, he's in trouble. He's in trouble. I noticed they, it's interesting that they, you know, showed that off camera. Him losing his finger. The finger. Yeah. Yeah. And they gave that only to Alan. Yeah.

[00:42:16] So Rhaenyra doesn't know about that yet. Yeah. I saw somebody say, why didn't they just take the ring off? Why'd they have to take the whole finger? Makes a bigger point. A lot more threatening. Yes. It does, again, draw that parallel between Ormond and, dang it, I've forgotten his name. The Flayed Men. Oh.

[00:42:45] Oh, Ramsey Bolton. Yeah. Because I've seen that comparison a few times. They definitely feel similar to me. Although Ramsey Bolton eats sausage and Ormond's becoming a vegetarian. Yes. Yes. He's, he's, you know, he's got some issues. Yeah. That's to say the least. Yeah.

[00:43:13] But yet in, in many ways, like his plan is working. He's just sitting there and they're off killing each other. And, you know, and losing Alf. Like, the tables are turning. So, like, all he needs to do is wait. Yeah. Keep waiting and they're just killing each other off. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:43:42] I had a little note about, um, is it Mandrelin? Mandrelin? Mandrelin. Yeah. About him complaining that they've made him the scapegoat. Yeah. And at that very time, Maserio's just sipping her wine. Yeah. Because that was her idea. Yeah. That was pretty good. They're pretty funny. They, they offer some lightness.

[00:44:10] When she told her to go ahead and go take Harrenhal and she was, like, giddy to go leave and do that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I, I have some notes left. Same. Just a couple things. Okay. Uh, circling back to Ulf the Betrayer. Mm-hmm. Did you catch that Ormond has been talking with him for a while? Yeah. Yes. Yeah. He's been cultivating him.

[00:44:37] Um, James Norton said, the actor who plays Ormond said inside the episode, he said, Ormond is a puppeteer. He plays with his enemies. And, yeah, I think that's the case. I didn't catch that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But the thing with, for both of them, is that, I mean, if Ulf was smarter, he would realize there's no way he's getting Driftmark.

[00:45:07] Ulf is not smarter, though. I know. That's the thing. He's not smarter. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. And if I were Ormond, I wouldn't trust him because he just, you know, obviously has no loyalty because he's betraying them. So he could betray you next. But I think Ormond is smart enough to keep that in mind. Well, and also, I don't think that there's anything bigger that Ulf could be offered to go back to the other side. Right.

[00:45:37] Because Ormond's offering him Driftmark. Yeah. That's one of the, you know, plummest lordships. Yeah. In the Seven Kingdoms. So. I think if that did happen, he would die real quick. His men would kill him. And I don't think there's anything Ormond has revealed to Ulf that Ulf could reveal, right? No. Like, his team, like. Yeah. Ormond is protected by the innocent people. Yeah.

[00:46:07] He's buried his army around. Yeah. That's right. And so. And even if he kills Ulf, he still eliminated a dragon. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Because he won't have a rider. Silverwing would not have a rider. That's right. Right. Uh, I love the, the, the last two lines of the episode. Ormond says, they will laugh at you no more. And Ulf says, no, they will burn. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:46:37] Um, uh, back when Rhaenyra was talking to Helena, um, Rhaenyra asks what will happen. You asked about Damon and Helena knows what will happen to Damon because she told him, she told Damon when Damon was in Harrenhal, what would happen to him, but she won't tell Rhaenyra. I thought that was interesting. I wouldn't either with Rhaenyra acting as a girl. Oh, no. Unless she was, I wouldn't be like, yeah, Damon's gonna die.

[00:47:07] Like, I feel like that would send her so far off the deep end. Yeah. Um, did you notice that, uh, Jane Aron says Raina has been living among nettles and sheep? I did. Which is, that's just a little tease to book readers because Raina has taken the place of a character called Nettles. So having Jane say she's been living among nettles and sheep is like, ha ha, book readers, ha ha ha. Yeah. I thought that was pretty cute.

[00:47:37] Little nod. Um, Alice has Eamon chopping wood just like Damon was chopping wood when he was at Harrenhal. What is this? Having Targaryens chopping wood. Interesting. Keep them busy. Yeah. Uh, Tylan Lannister is a surprising fellow. When did he become so brave? Right? Yeah. It's sort of in keeping with his book character, but in a very different way than in the book.

[00:48:06] Because he'd been kind of a, a weenie up until that point. He was ready to die and he had an out. Yeah. They were basically giving him an out. Yeah. He was a weenie, but like he did, you know, fight, uh, what's her face in the mud. And he, I think. You know, if you think of how low his opinion was of Aegon.

[00:48:31] And to run away from that, he'd have to be at a pretty, very low point about himself. And so, like, it was this moment of him being like somewhat of an honorable guy, I guess. Um. Kind of reminds me of Gawain in many ways. Uh, well, first Larys cracked me up there. Oh, yeah. Like, basically like, peace, I'll sing you a song. Bye.

[00:49:00] But then I did clock Aegon's, I missed Kristen Cole's head on a stick, but I did see Aegon's sad longing look towards Larys as he rode off. Yeah. Which was kind of like, aww. He, he, he began to care about someone who openly told him how terrible he was. And I do think that, that is the character growth for Aegon. Yeah. But he had respect for someone who told him hard truths.

[00:49:31] Yeah. I don't think Larys is going to tell any songs, though. He's going to be off. Just to the next best thing. Yeah, right. He's going to find his next advantage. Yeah. Oh, maybe he'll find Alicent. Oh my God. Because I was thinking maybe like Sunfire and Aegon would find Alicent and protect her or something, but like, what if Larys? Where is Harrenhal compared to Rook's Rest? I think Rook's Rest is in between Harrenhal and King's Landing, so it's possible.

[00:50:01] Hmm. That actually makes a lot of sense. One of the notes is that when Sunfire returns and burns the soldiers, they set 23 stunt performers on fire, which set a new world record. Wow. Yeah. That's in the house that dragons built. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:50:24] I think the only note I had beyond those ones that we just covered was just that I have so much relief that like the Raina secret is out and that Rhaenyra knows that it was her. Yeah. Um, and it broke my heart that she separated from Sheepstealer and that like, I hated my sweet, sweet snaggletooth dragon getting attacked that way.

[00:50:50] Um, but it was also just nice to see her and her sisters embrace. Mm-hmm. And I mean, Damon's a total piece of shit husband and father, but at least he apologized multiple times this episode. Like, this was a pretty vulnerable episode for him. Mm-hmm. He acknowledged he'd been a bad father.

[00:51:13] He said it both to Raina and to Rhaenyra, and then he did genuinely try to apologize to Rhaenyra, even in front of someone, which I felt like- Yes. Again, like, I'm not saying- She seems to hear it. Oh, he's a great dad and husband now because he apologized. Like, no, no, no. He's still shit. But for him, that was quite a bit of vulnerability that we don't often see. And she seemed to accept it.

[00:51:41] She said, it's not that he was lying to me. It was that he was protecting his child. And I believe that's true. I think it's stupid and he shouldn't have done it. But I do believe that was true. And I, it just, I don't know. It's just so wasteful, you know? Like, it just didn't have to be that way. And the dragons pay the price for the people's stupidity.

[00:52:10] I think what's really important about what you just said, though, is that Rhaenyra didn't acknowledge that to Daemon. Right. She said it to Mysaria, which means she's still trying to convince herself of that. Yeah. And argue with Mysaria, who said it, said the opposite before. And if she'd said it to Daemon, I would believe that she believed it.

[00:52:36] But because she didn't say it and sent him away and said it to Mysaria, I think she was still looking for, like, validation. She wanted Mysaria to acquiesce and say, oh, yeah, I guess you're right. But she didn't. And so I think Rhaenyra is still questioning Daemon after this, even though I agree with you. I don't think she should be. But. And she wouldn't even be alone with him.

[00:53:06] Yeah. Yeah. She's really in a bad place. Boy, Alinda Massey looked so uncomfortable when Rhaenyra told her to stay when Daemon was there. But she did almost seem nurturing of Rhaenyra. Like, after Daemon left, she kind of came. I know she was braiding her hair, but it seemed, you know, very kind.

[00:53:37] And she was hugging her shoulder and just. I can't imagine how alone Rhaenyra feels, which makes it understandable to flee towards Mysaria. But I don't think that's the right move. No, no. And Mysaria literally. So what was the other woman's name that her friend or. Old colleague, the lady that was in the throne room with her. Do you remember? You said it earlier, Rennie.

[00:54:06] A Linda Massey? Yes. Yeah. Okay. So. She, you know, told her you're changed and all that. But she said two things. She said, you have no power but to flatter and cajole. And then she said, a whore will always and ever remain a whore in these high houses. And in that scene with Rhaenyra, she. Said nothing like sweet. Nothing's to Rhaenyra, but she said nothing and all of that.

[00:54:33] And it was only to try to like sweet talk Rhaenyra. And then. Like that intimacy. She kissed Rhaenyra again to like flatter and cajole her. And then Rhaenyra sort of just laid back. Like it was not a scene where the passion seemed to like flow into them sleeping together.

[00:54:56] It seemed like Miss Aria placating Rhaenyra and then Rhaenyra sort of leaning back and being like, okay, do this to me and like continue to soothe me. And I just felt like it was Miss Aria like doing exactly what her friend had called her out on and reinforced to her that her friend was right. Probably that Rhaenyra is just using her and that she doesn't have the power to really truly influence.

[00:55:25] And that Rhaenyra doesn't really see her as like a love interest. She just sees her as something to use, which is disappointing because I didn't think that was the case when they were on Dragonstone. Right. Like that initial kiss that they shared and that relationship then was one where Rhaenyra was trusting her and and seeing her as a legitimate advisor. And now she's just looking to someone to be a yes man and make her feel good.

[00:55:56] Yeah. In the official podcast, they said that they consummated their relationship. But I had thought way back when last season they had, I guess they didn't show it on screen, but I just assumed. I had to. Yeah. I assumed also, but I think we were assuming. Yeah. Differently from the writers. They wanted to show us, I guess. I don't believe that. They were alone on Driftmark and feeling each other.

[00:56:25] No, they didn't wait till now to do this, but okay. Okay, writers. Okay, writers. Yeah. Did, do you know that Sonoya Mizuno, who plays Masaria, is pregnant? Oh, no, I didn't. Yeah. There are a couple of, once you know that, you can see how they're framing her and the way they've cut the gown to try to hide the pregnancy. Once you know, you can see it.

[00:56:53] But I never noticed until I learned that. Yeah. Definitely didn't. Fuck it. The last thing I had in my notes, unless anybody else has more to say about Rhaenyra and Masaria, was just the lineup of the Blacks and the Greens. And things are very balanced now in terms of dragons. If Vhagar is indeed truly still in play and reunites with Aemond.

[00:57:22] Because we have Rhaenyra, Daemon, Bela, and Adam solidly on Team Black. On Team Green, we have Daeron. Sorry, I'm saying the writers do not their dragons. But Daeron and Tessarion. Aegon now has Sunfire, who is at least a significant threat on the ground. Yeah. We'll see what else he can do. We don't know how well Sunfire can fly, but Sunfire can breathe fire.

[00:57:52] And a dragon on the ground is still a threat that would be much more vulnerable to. Yeah. Yes. But if you had an army around it. Yeah. Aemond and Vhagar, as long as Vhagar is still in play. And I think she is. And she's just. Yes, I think so. And then we now know that Ulf and Silverwing.

[00:58:12] And I think I'm just sort of like, I don't know where Hugh and Vermithor lie in the grand scheme of things after his talk with his wife last episode. And so I just sort of had him as a little bit of a wild card who, like, I could imagine just going rogue. I do think he has loyalty in him. I think so too. But his wife. What if his wife dies? What if? There's so many what ifs there.

[00:58:39] If Rhaenyra said, go burn Tumbleton, would he? Uh-huh. With his wife being there. No, I don't think he would. That I think he would be too green. But I think it could mean he goes rogue. Yeah. But I think. We'll see. Without his wife coming into play, I think he would be loyal to them. I agree. He's like an honorable man. Yeah.

[00:59:05] But with their treatment of both Hugh and Ulf, I don't think I can really fault them. Yeah. If they walked away. Like, Rhaenyra has done nothing to instill loyalty in them. Like, she's not been someone they want to follow. She's not been a leader to get behind. No. I hate that I'm saying this. She, I know. She just has them on ice. Yes. Risking their lives. Yes.

[00:59:34] No. Rhaenyra and Daemon have both been. Yeah. I think really short-sighted in their treatment of both Hugh and Ulf. Yeah. It is. So anyways, that puts us at 4v4 with a additional dragon questionable between. Yeah. And definitely, like, it's not an even 4v4. Like, Ulf and Silverwing are pretty untested. And Vhagar is still missing.

[01:00:04] And Tessarion is young. And Daeron is not likely to be someone who wants to kill another dragon or dragon rider. Although I would really love it if he killed his cousin. We have Dreamfire, which we don't know. That's true. Oh, yes. Yeah. I think I was just counting that out, but I don't think I should just... I can't imagine. I could imagine Helena riding off on Dreamfire.

[01:00:32] I don't imagine her riding Dreamfire into battle. I don't think she could handle it. Probably not. No, but she might burn some people to get away. I could see that happening. But let's not forget, the Blacks have Oscar Tully. No, they do. Yeah. Oscar Tully. That's great. I loved him last week. Loved him. And the Winter Wolves. Yeah. And the Winter Wolves. They're still hanging in there.

[01:01:00] They're trying to die in battle, but they keep living. Something about Oscar Tully's cadence of how he talks... Like, I want to listen to him read a book or something. Yeah. I love it. I love it so much. There is another dragon, which is Joffrey's dragon, Tyraxes, but who's very young and small and couldn't fight. Oh, Joffrey. Right, right. The kid who's always asleep. I know.

[01:01:29] And I guess I've also discounted Sheepsealer, who I guess theoretically is not dead. And Reyna... Looks very injured, though. ...is still, like, interested in him, but I'm... Yeah. I kind of, like, count them out. It's gonna come knocking at her door. At best, they're not a very effective duo. Currently, I don't think... I don't see them swooping in to save the day. Okay.

[01:02:00] No. Reyna needs a how-to-train-your-dragon lesson. Yep. Okay, we can get started with news about House of the Dragon. Rani, you want to start the first article? Yeah. House of the Dragon star reveals why Alice never told Daemon about the dragon eggs, from winteriscoming.net by Alexandra Ramos.

[01:02:29] In the latest House of the Dragon episode, The Dragon in Winter, fans were given a shocking revelation that Alice has hidden dragon eggs away at Harrenhal for years and that she's finally revealed them to a current Targaryen, Aemond, who has pretty much taken up residency in the abandoned castle these days. In a recent interview with Variety, Alice Rivers' actress, Gail Rankin, revealed the real reason

[01:02:53] why Alice withheld this information from Daemon, and it was because Alice knew Daemon wouldn't ever let his guard down. At the same time, Aemond was a very different story. I don't think Daemon ever really let his guard down with Alice, really, really, really. And then he broke her heart. And she's prophetic, and she can also read people like a book. So she knew that Daemon was never going to get there with her, and Daemon was not her answer.

[01:03:22] I think Aemond is a different story, and I think she knows that instinctively, Rankin said. But with Alice knowing where actual real dragon eggs are, it might mean that she is really as old as she says she is. In fact, Rankin even said in the Variety article that she believes Rivers to be several centuries old to have those dragon eggs. I think she's like 400 years old, I mean, give or take.

[01:03:49] I think we're going to find out more soon, but she could be 400 years old. Like, I believe her. That's the thing. I think there's a lot of skepticism about, is she telling the truth? Is she manipulating? I'm like, I believe the woman, said Rankin.

[01:04:07] So if those are Dreamfire's eggs that were laid when the previous Reina Targaryen was Dreamfire's writer and was at Harrenhal, those eggs would be 56 years and 74 years old. Not 400 years old. If Alice is 400 years old, then she was born 270 years before Aegon's Conquest.

[01:04:38] So I will be very interested to see what more we find out about Alice Rivers. Yeah. All right. Veronica, you want to read the next one? Sure. House of the Dragon Director explains the big dragon surprises ahead of season three finale. And this is written by Nick Romano for Entertainment Weekly. For the first time since the start of Game of Thrones... Sorry.

[01:05:08] Let me start over. For the first time since the start of the Game of Thrones prequel, fans were treated to a look at Dreamfire, the glorious she-dragon bonded to Helena, played by Fia Saban, and the one that hatched a secret clutch of eggs that Alice Rivers, played by Gail Rankin, keeps stored at Harrenhal. Nina Lopez Corrado, the director of season three's seventh episode, explains the excitement around the Dreamfire reveal during an interview with Entertainment Weekly.

[01:05:37] She worked with a storyboard artist in Vancouver to come up with a sequence, one of a series of visions in which she mounts Dreamfire in the dragon pit of King's Landing and torches an army of small folk charging their way. In the book, Fire and Blood, as originally detailed later by author George R. R. Martin, Helena is a formidable dragon rider with a fierce bond to Dreamfire. House of the Dragon takes a different approach,

[01:06:03] presenting a Helena that shares the same concerns around dragons as her grandfather... No, as her father. No. Yeah, that's a mistake in their reporting. Okay. He's her father, yeah. Understandable why they may have thought he was her grandfather. No, no, wait. No, that's right. Yes, that's correct. Sorry. The late King Viserys, Patti Quonsidine. Like him, she no longer flies, fearing the corrupting influence of such world-shaking power.

[01:06:32] Helena has such a strong feeling about the dragons in which she's torn because she thinks that they do change people and that they've changed their whole world, essentially, Lopez Corrado explains. So when she sees herself on the dragon and sees Dreamfire basically take out all of King's Landing internally for her at Bernstein, I think she knows that deep down inside, because she's a Targaryen,

[01:06:56] there is almost no positive outcome to anything that's happening in regards to this war in this family. And the dragons, as long as they exist, are going to keep this inner turmoil inside of the Targaryens. Interesting. I thought that Viserys only stopped becoming a dragon rider because... Because Balerion died.

[01:07:23] I had thought that previously, but that's not the case, right? He just like... He was still a dragon rider, but he didn't... He only rode Balerion once. So even though he was bonded to Balerion, he didn't ride him except the one time before Balerion died. Huh. And is it right that if your dragon dies, that's it?

[01:07:51] You can't be bonded to another dragon? No, you can be bonded to another dragon. Oh, wait. No, wait. Sorry. That's the other way around. Nobody knows. There's no recorded instance of a dragon rider taking a second dragon. Hmm. But dragons can have serial riders. Yeah. Right. Got it.

[01:08:16] I mean, I just think that there doesn't have to be a magical influence of dragons corrupting. I think it could just be that inherently humans are corrupted by too much power and dragons are ridiculously powerful. Yes. Yes. All right. I'll read our third article. House of the Dragon director defends book changes after George R.R. Martin criticism.

[01:08:44] This is by The Independent, by Jacob Stolworthy, which sounds like a Westeros name. It really does. The Stolworthy. House of Stolworthy. Yeah. House of the Dragon continued to deviate from George R.R. Martin's source material in its latest episode. But the director has controversially insisted the changes were necessary.

[01:09:08] These changes have kept coming in the show's third season, with its latest installment featuring a first look at Dreamfire, a dragon who, in Martin's book, Fire and Blood, is bonded to Helena Targaryen. Fia Saban. Generally speaking, the TV show presents a far less formidable version of Helena than the novel, one who refuses to fly a dragon, believing she would be corrupted if she did so.

[01:09:36] The latest episode featured a vision of the future absent from the books, which depicts the usually insular Helena, confidently astride Dreamfire, ordering her to breathe fire upon a small army marching her way. Elsewhere, the kidnapping of Corlys Valerian, Steve Toussaint, by Ormond Hightower, James Norton, is another huge deviation, not to mention his rift with former ally Rhaenyra, Emma Darcy.

[01:10:06] Addressing these revisions, director Nina Lopez-Kurada said they help enhance what's to come in the season three finale. We do deviate just a little bit in episode seven from what's originally in the books, and personally, from a character standpoint, what Ryan Condal, showrunner, and the writers did in terms of that, really helped evolve the character storylines from what were in the books, she told Entertainment Weekly. Weekly.

[01:10:34] I have been reading the book, and I'm not quite up to this point, but some of what's in the book is very vague, and they usually give several different versions, and they say over and over and over again, they're not sure about the accuracy. Yes, yes.

[01:10:55] And, you know, like, what might be a whole episode is a paragraph in the book, so I kind of feel like they had to do this, unlike Game of Thrones, which had so much detail and dialogue and, yeah. Yeah, Fire and Blood isn't a novel in the traditional sense, it's a fictional history, and it's written like a history. Yeah. Yeah. Yep.

[01:11:24] What do you think, Renny? Um, I think that they did definitely have to make changes. They had to decide which version of things they were going to use, but they've made some changes that really alter the structure of things. Making Rhaenyra and Alicent the same age is amazing, and focusing the whole story on the relationship between Rhaenyra and Alicent is a major structural change.

[01:11:53] And I think it's a good one. I do, too. I think that it gives the story of focus that makes sense. It's one of the things that George R.R. Martin really objected to. But some of the things that he vehemently objected to, I don't have a problem with. Like, he lost his marvels over them leaving Maelor, Helena's third child, the one she's pregnant with now, out of the story.

[01:12:19] Uh, because he thought that it had to serve as motivation for other things that'll happen later. But I don't think that's the case at all. I think they could have continued to leave Maelor out and use other events to motivate things. Sure. So, you know, I think that's fine. But something like having to invent the character of Ormond Hightower, he's literally just a name in the books. Ormond Hightower marched his army here, and, you know, you know nothing about his personality.

[01:12:47] And I think that they've taken that opportunity to really add something by making him such a wacko character. It's funny. It reminds me so much of the controversy surrounding Testaments, the deviation from the novel in so many ways. Very similar. Yeah. Yeah, they made a major change to who a character is in that show as well.

[01:13:11] And, you know, you could, probably not with Fire and Blood, but with Game of Thrones, you could have done an exact, with no changes. And it would have been, I don't know, 400 hours long? Yeah. We'd still be podcasting on it. Two billion dollars, right? Yeah. To adapt something, you have to make changes.

[01:13:41] And it's always going to be the case that any given viewer is going to like some of the changes more than the others. Yeah. You know, if Sunfire had ended up being dead, I would have really disliked that. But they just played out that story differently, and so it's okay. Because in the book, she's not dead. Yeah, Sunfire's not dead in the book. Yeah. Yeah. Did they ever think she was dead in the book? No. Okay.

[01:14:11] But Sunfire disappears for a while. So Sunfire's status and whereabouts are unknown for a while. And some people in the book think that Sunfire might have gone off somewhere and died. But Sunfire's at Rook's rest. And a group actually attacks Sunfire, seriously wounded but not dead. And a group attacks him and tries to kill him, and they don't succeed. And then Sunfire disappears.

[01:14:38] And nobody thought he could fly because his wing was seriously injured. And so it's mysterious. He's off page for a while. Sure. And then he comes back in a very different way than he came back in the show. I love that scene. Like, that's such a great scene. They had to do it. It really was great. It was a great theatrical scene. Yes. Yeah. So I'm fine with that.

[01:15:05] I love how when Aegon realizes that it's Sunfire, like, it just took two beats before he was like, oh yeah, Dracarys. Dracarys. Right? And I don't think he's, you know, did he say Dracarys when he was fighting Aemon and Vhagar? I don't think he did. I think this may be the first time he's ever said Dracarys. Yeah. I think you're right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It was great.

[01:15:34] So I'm open to adaptive changes. I just don't always think that showrunners make the best adaptive changes. Yeah. All right. Well, we have lots of listener feedback today. Thanks for everybody for writing in or posting on our Podcastica Facebook group. Okay. Alicia Stout says, because it's late and I'm tired, I jotted down some notes.

[01:16:02] First 10 minutes of the episode. Ew. Hard degree, Alicia. Hard degree. Helena. Winter is coming. Oh, and chickens. Side note, my closed captioning said, gray mare. Was that right? Or did she say, man? I was a little confused there. Mine said gray mare too. Yeah. I think, yeah. I think it's gray mare. Yeah. Yep.

[01:16:32] Guess what? Y'all thought Crispy was the most annoying character. Nope. It's actually Messaria. Funny how pets and owners look alike, even in Westeros. Anyone else cheering on Aegon as he dracarist those soldiers? Yes. Can we not hurt Sheepstealer? I actually feel sorry for him. Ouch. Quote, the villagers gossip of a wild girl in the mountains living amongst nettles and sheep. End quote. They said nettles. Yes, they did.

[01:17:03] Girl, Allison, never walk away before poisoning someone. Always, always make sure they're completely dead. Double tap. That dragon fight was epic and sad. Raina is a hot mess. Ulf is a shit. And one last thought I've been thinking about for a while but have yet to mention is the tapestry Helena is working on the same one in the opening credits of the show. Oh my gosh.

[01:17:30] I've heard other people speculate that that is the case, but we don't really know. No, I think it is because that isn't. Don't we see that same picture of Aemond? Is it in this week's? I didn't see. I didn't notice. I think it's been in a couple. Okay. I don't know. I'm going to have to go back to work. Maybe. That's really cool. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So OG dragon queen, Rima Jo.

[01:17:58] Posted a meme of a man sobbing and said, when it's the dance of the dragons and the dragons start dancing. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Tufain Thebalt says, is Helena actually dreaming of Daenerys burning King's Landing with the gray mare being the one Arya encounters? That's how I knew. Thank you, Tufain. I totally give you credit for that. Good idea. Yeah. Loved that episode. It had everything.

[01:18:26] And even if I am a little bit frustrated with some of the deviations from the book, the rendition of this epic world on screen is truly rewarding. I know what's coming and I can't wait. May Almordini says, I wondered what her visions were about. I love that she has a bigger role this season. She's so interesting. What an episode. The creepy Aemond and Alicent scenes were phenomenal. Damon's love for his daughter was so touching.

[01:18:56] It was so heartbreaking to see them kill Sheepstealer. Although I assume he's not dead since we didn't see it on screen. Yeah, I'm pretty sure he's not dead. He got away. He was pretty torn up, but I think he got away. But the family drama behind the scenes show how Rhaenyra's family life is a good reflection of his ruling. Just absolute chaos. Final scene with Aegon's half burnt face and Sunfire's half burnt face was phenomenal. I love this season.

[01:19:25] And it was interesting to hear that Martin hated it because it veered off from the books. I think that's why I'm loving it. Kimberly Joseph said, I think Sheepstealer will be back. I think it'll be another bad look for Damon and Rhaenyra's eyes that he didn't finish the job. Maybe, but I don't think she said she didn't tell him to kill Sheepstealer.

[01:19:52] He told him to finish him and Craxes stopped because Damon's life was possibly in danger. Yes. He's thrown off. I think Rhaenyra is more interested in taking revenge on Sheepstealer's rider than on Sheepstealer. Yeah. Did not like that. All right. We have a call from Steve Brown. Hello, Dragon Cats.

[01:20:19] This is Steve, and I'm getting caught up for tonight's episode seven. But I just have one question as I'm watching. I think this is episode five I'm watching now. Where did all the cats come from? I mean, I know the cats were there to catch the rats. But where did they come from? Like two episodes ago, there's no cats. King's Landing is running silly with rats. And now all of a sudden it's running silly with cats. I don't get it. Cats, rats. Ugh. Okay. Now that I got that off my chest. Now here we go. Episode seven. Hey, I thought Helena was under heavy guard. Oh, this is probably a dream, right? Ooh.

[01:20:49] And now she's kissing on her son again. Alicent, right? Ugh. Oh yeah, this is just wrong. Okay. Well, he stopped it. But, ugh. Oh, it was the witch pretending to be... Okay. Now Alicent actually does arrive. Oh. And Eamon just stabbed that guy in the neck that brought Alicent to him. Because obviously he doesn't believe her escape story. This whole intrigue of who's king and all the different guys claiming to be king. So is Lord Orman claiming he's king? But this kid is also... I don't... Who's this kid again? But, uh... I don't know.

[01:21:18] I'm glad I have the podcast to explain these connections to me. Now Orman's got Lord Corlys as a hostage against who? Now the kid who's talking to Gawain says he doesn't care about being king. What? Okay. I had to go to work and now I'm back. So hopefully I get this in in time. Oh, and now... So this woman is thinking that Damon... Right, Damon? This is the Matt Smith character who's married to Rhaenyra. Ugh. He's the prince, but he's the king. He's the queen's husband. I don't understand. Now the burnt king is trying to get to Braavos. Isn't that where the faceless men were?

[01:21:48] Aria learned how to be an assassin. Right. So now OneEye is saying he's going to make... Be king in Herringhall. Is that where he's at? Ooh, now which are these two dragons that are hollering at each other? Oh, okay. There's Damon and... Oh, and this must be the girl on Sheepstealer, right? Or are we going to have some dragon on dragon fighting here? All right. Here they go. Sheepstealer and what's Reyna's dragon's name? I don't know where... I don't know these... I need a flow chart. Org chart for these... dragons and riders. Oh, and now it looks like Damon's dragon... Siraxi's just killing Sheepstealer. Ooh, now so it's...

[01:22:17] I don't know if Sheepstealer's dead or not, but she crawled off. And now Alicent is meeting with OneEye. And is she going to poison him? Ooh, did he drink the wine? Now just OneEye just fell over. Alice called him an idiot. Alice? Alicent? His name. Well, now Helene is having a dream about having her baby and riding a dragon. What's that dragon that she's riding? A lot of horns on that dragon. So maybe that was the queen dreaming? She just threw the skull into the fire? I don't know. Now... Oh, that's pretty ballsy. Aemon Targaryen facing down a whole army.

[01:22:46] Is that Vhagar behind him? Or is that Sunfire? Is that his dragon back from the dead? Whoa. Okay. Whoa. Okay. I don't know what that last scene... Was that Ulf plotting with Ormond? Anyway, I can't wait to hear you guys explain this one because I need it. Talk to you next week. Thanks, Steve. Herring hall. I just keep picturing, like, a hall filled with fish. I don't know where that caught me. All right. Mac King. Yeah.

[01:23:16] Says, great episode. Aegon finding his backbone for a last stand, supported by Tylan Lannister, and at the key moment by Sunfire. Ulf White apparently being persuaded to join Ormond with the offer of Driftmark as his next home to replace nine-fingered Corlys.

[01:24:04] Yeah, he's doing it. Yeah, agree. Okay. Alma Contreras says, Oh my sweet Jesus. This was truly a great episode, but I expected nothing less from a penultimate episode. It was only a matter of time before Rhaenyra found out about Reyna, but damn it, poor sheep stealer. I can't believe Alicent actually went through with trying to poison Aemond. Alice warned him, lol.

[01:24:30] I did laugh when he came staggering in and falling with Alice just rolling her eyes saying, idiot. And probably one of the most Targaryen unhinged moments when Aegon was laughing after Sunfire Dracarysed everyone was great. And yes, I was totally not surprised that Sunfire lived. But then again, I did read the book.

[01:24:58] Kimberly Joseph said, I had to fast forward when the dragons started fighting. For some reason, seeing people fight doesn't bother me, but I can't watch animals fight, even if they're fake dragons. I was definitely covering my eyes a few times. Like it was hurting me. I fast forwarded the second time. I didn't want to watch it again. I know they're CGI, but I care about them. They sound and act so real. No actual dragons were harmed in the filming of this show. I know.

[01:25:28] And I feel like I have like released them a long time ago because, you know, but still, it's not fun. We have several from last week. We have Alicia Stout says, I'm not sure what I enjoyed more. Sir Crispy being killed in the first five minutes of the episode or Sir Crispy being killed by the best warrior in Westeros, a woman.

[01:25:57] Do we really think Corlys is dead? I mean, we didn't see a body, right? You're right. Yeah, now we know. Corlys's not dead. I think I said that several times that I wanted Crispy to be killed by a woman. Yeah, you did. You did. And he was. And I liked how he really wanted to like sword in hand. And he was like, no, you're not even worth us crossing the ravine. That's right.

[01:26:26] Alma Contreras says, yay, finally Crispy gets killed. For some reason, I thought he got his death from a dragon. Oh, well. Because I kept wishing for it. Yes, that's right. That's why. All that matters is that he is gone. Yes, I have not liked him since season one. Ugh, and Allison is forever annoying me. Rebecca Arcus says,

[01:26:50] I absolutely loved episodes one and two of this season, but I feel like since then there's been a lot of filler and build up. I love this show so much that it pains me to say that. I love the character building, but feel the balance has been off. Really hoping for some more exciting episodes in the next two weeks. I hope maybe this week was exciting for you.

[01:27:13] Kristen's death felt like a bit of an anti-climax for such a key character, though I'm glad he's met his end. Bela and Alan felt like it came out of the blue, even as a book reader. I didn't feel they gave it the buildup it would have needed for me to be okay with it, allowing time first for her to grieve, then for some believable chemistry, and the two of them spending time together. I would have found her and Adam were believable, and this just felt inappropriate and not true to the characters.

[01:27:42] I finally read the book between seasons two and three, so I can tune in to the book spoilers now, but as a book reader, I'm feeling pretty apprehensive about what's to come. All fair. Same. I felt like Jace and Bela were friends. I never felt like there was a romantic connection between them. I mean, they grew up as kids together and kind of supported each other through loss of parents and... Yeah, they were friends. Growing up years.

[01:28:12] Cousins, you know? Mm-hmm. And there might have been later, you know? I mean, she obviously cared about him a great deal and was happy with her betrothal, but I don't know that... I don't know. There's... I feel like there's chemistry between her and Alan, you know? That she didn't have with him. That's just mine. I agree with you about Jace, but I haven't felt the chemistry really built...

[01:28:40] I just wish they'd spent a little bit more time showing Bela and Alan having some more key moments together. Yeah. Because honestly, I think I would have... Like, uh... Rebecca just said that I would have found... Yeah. ...her and Adam were believable because they've been out riding together and having these little moments of talking. So it actually made sense to me the way they had Adam say all that this week. I was glad that she...

[01:29:10] Well, Bela is a Targaryen. Yeah. Maybe she'll marry them both. Ooh. Yeah, I think it's kind of the same thing that we've talked about is that this is a four-season show that could have... That had enough content to be ten. Yeah. So. Oh my God, but that would have taken 20 years because it's two years between seasons. I know. Gosh. Yeah. I mean, look how long Game of Thrones took, right? It was like...

[01:29:41] ...ten years, I think. At least. Not longer. Yeah. All right. I have a voicemail from Megan Dively-Layman. Hello, ladies. This is Megan Lehman with some quick feedback for House of the Dragon. Because I am going to send you some written feedback to catch us up.

[01:30:04] I was having dinner with Wendy and some of our other Zed Head friends about a week ago at the Netflix house, King of Prussia. I highly recommend. And told her that I had this note opened on my phone where I had been taking notes for feedback every single week for episodes two through five. And every single week failing to actually write it up properly or do a voicemail. And she laughed and she said, let me see it. And I showed it to her.

[01:30:31] And she said, most of this makes sense, but it's kind of funny. She's like, clean it up a little bit and send it. And maybe we'll read it. So I'm going to do that. I'm going to send that to you. Feel free to read it or parts of it if you'd like on the air. And all I will say for this week is two quick things. One, RIP to Kristen Cole, who I think was the best-looking man on the series until they gave him that horrible George Clooney late 90s Caesar haircut. That was just awful.

[01:31:00] Yes, you are everyone's toxic crush, Kristen Cole. I'm glad you were dead. And I'm glad you didn't get to have the fanfare and the Weeping Angels for you. And I think Wayne now is the best-looking guy on the show. I love his red hair. The other thing I wanted to comment on is I'm not sure how I'm feeling about the two new pairings. I liked Milli Vanilli with the Bela or whatever her name is. Again, I can't hear her names on these shows anymore.

[01:31:28] Her with Alan was a different choice than I expected. However, I really like his personality and what he brings to the team. I think he is like an absolute A-plus addition. So, yeah. Yeah. And I think the brother's going to be mad, though, because I think he thought that was going to be his girl. And the... Oh, Eamond and Alice Rivers is just every kind of ick. I didn't necessarily hate Alice before. I kind of like the little witchy thing. But, oh, Eamond is so gross.

[01:31:58] Like, everything about him is so gross. And the two of them, they both had these, like, super angular features. So, when they were going to kiss, I almost felt like I was watching a Cybertruck, like, crash into another Cybertruck. Oh, no. I don't know what else to say. I better just end with that. I'll catch up next week. Bye. Bye. I'm really curious what Megan thinks about this episode. Yeah. And I am going to read her notes that she sent me. They are pretty funny. It's a little long, but it's great.

[01:32:29] It's funny because I took these same kind of notes on Severance and sent them to Jason. Episode two. Millie Vanilli, naked men everywhere. What was worse for Allison? Sleeping with Viserys, a gross kiss from her son. Doing foot stuff with Laris or the attempted rape. Ugh. I think I might like to keep chickens. It's going to launch a thousand memes. Seeing where the dragons are flying over the chimney tower with all the bats was super cool.

[01:32:58] My God, Vhagar is enormous. I'm pretty sure I heard a Wilhelm scream when he was lighting up the dudes at Harrenhal. Good practical effects with the guys crawling around on fire. I confess we had not been expecting you. Oh, hilarious line. I'm sorry to see the old strong man go. Of course, now he's going to kill the sun too. See, that's the difference. Damon came in there and took over the place and he didn't have to hurt anybody.

[01:33:26] Amond had the same opportunity and couldn't help but kill everyone. Oh, good. I'm happy to see him slipping around in his own blood. Why the hell is she going to help him? See, Team Rhaenyra could just go around handing out castles to people like Alice Rivers and the bastard dragon riders and they would be happy and loyal. Why can't they just give them nice things?

[01:33:48] I think it's ridiculous that both Amond and Daemon can come in to ransack a castle and just get attacked by four or more people at once and kill them all. No trouble. That was way, way, way too easy taking over King's Landing. Rhaenyra should have made Otto confess that he knew all along that her father's wish was for her to become queen so that everyone assembled could have heard the truth from his own counselor's mouth. I don't think he would have ever confessed that.

[01:34:20] Poor Rhaenyra needs a spa day. They can do that at the Vale. She sent that poor girl back out into the wilderness looking all scraggly, hungry mess. While the physical acting of Rhaenyra going from extremely feminine body language, mourning her son's death, then taking on a very masculine body language, walking into King's Landing with Daemon. And then become very unsure and feminine again, taking the throne and killing Otto.

[01:34:50] Strength. The bloody footsteps are brilliant, and I love the making of clip talking about Daemon and Rhaenyra walking into the castle as one unit, one blood, you. Episode 3. Of course she has a huge day at work and gets her period. I knew it was the rats. Dan Fogler. See this running the city part of the show is the best, and I find it endlessly fascinating. Episode 4.

[01:35:19] Dan Fogler on main credits. He is great. The Hightower dandy had a nice soaking bath desk, quite unlike a standing desk that they give you at work nowadays. Ormond has a suspicious mole in his groin area. Someone better check that out. The small council is like a staff meeting when everyone has the flu. Who is her hand again?

[01:35:44] I love how so many people like these nobles and meisters just go, yep, whatever, whoever's in charge just don't kill us. Love the two ladies scenes, old friends, now frenemies, hesitatingly working together, sort of. Great acting. I love how the witch gives no fucks. Yes, get the cats. I really can't believe Rhaenyra is buying into this anointed-by-god stuff.

[01:36:11] The Vale people are as close-looking as we have to Lord of the Rings-style elves, and they sure could have given that poor girl a spot day. I love Daemon's dragon stagecoach doesn't get robbed of its gold. The way they did Rhaena's reveal coming through the tunnel with the dragon fire lit up behind her was amazing. Episode 5, cats. She is the goat, right? Alice Rivers. Yes, she is.

[01:36:42] Yeah, the poor horses with their feet. The two rulers seen speaking entirely in Targaryen was amazing, with candlelight around the round table. Wow, those two actors. I don't think you're the realm's greatest warrior, bro. I love Helena's flame trick to hide the hidden passage, and that she was trying to get the cat to come to bed. Holy shit, what is Daemon about to find?

[01:37:11] Oh, please, God, no, not Dan Fogler. Or was that her entire small council dead? Oh, she means it was the gold cloaks. Oh, they told me it was the gold cloaks. Thank you, Megan. That's great. Keep it up. We want to hear what you think for the finale. That was fun. All right. Kim Selby says, So happy to hear David on the pod again. Me too. Yes. Great. That was nice. All right.

[01:37:40] And last but not least, we have last week's voicemail message from Steve Brown. Hello, Dragoncast. This is Steve. And I'm trying to get caught up, but I don't think I'll make it before you guys record for episode six of House of the Dragon. So I just finished episode two. I know I'm really far behind. But I wanted to say how much I appreciate this podcast helping me figure things out.

[01:38:07] Because it's hard for me to figure these shows out, and I don't watch them multiple times usually. So I'm really appreciative of all of you that help out. Veronica, Rennie, and David this week, but normally Wendy in there. It's such a joy to hear you all talk about this show that you love and help me understand it better. So anyway, I'm going to try to get caught up a little bit. Like I said, I don't think I'm going to make it all the way through episode six before I finish.

[01:38:35] But hopefully I'll have something for episode seven next week. Talk to you later. Thank you, Steve. Thanks, Steve. Your voicemails are a joy. Yeah. All right. Next week, we will be covering the finale of season three, episode eight. And right after this, we're going to have book talk, which I know you've said there isn't a whole lot. Yeah, we've got some. Okay. A few things.

[01:39:04] I was like, I've got nothing. So I'm curious. I've got some things. Good. You can leave feedback at our Podcastica Facebook group, where we post weekly feedback threads. Or you can leave feedback or voicemails by email at dragons at podcastica.com. You can find all of our contact information at podcastica.com. I think Dead City is starting. Is that right? Yes, it is. It is started.

[01:39:33] I actually, I need to go back because I didn't get past season two. Like, I didn't get past the first episode, but there have been really good rumblings about season three so far. That's like people saying it finally has justified its existence. And so I'm curious. Yeah. So I might go check that out. And I believe Ben and Alex are covering that again this year. So, yeah. I saw the first episode, but I haven't seen the second episode yet.

[01:40:03] And what did you think of the first episode? Did you like it? I thought it was good. I thought it was way better than season two, but I'm not sure I'm going to like where they're going. Oh, yeah. We'll see. I'll keep watching and see. I haven't seen season one and I haven't seen season two, but I am a completionist, so I should do it. And then Amelie and Jason and I just covered the first half of Silo season three.

[01:40:33] So Silo is this sort of cool dystopian future, almost like a mystery noir. My daughter loves it. She was just talking about that when we were on vacation. I love Silo. I look forward to hearing that podcast, Veronica, because I love Silo. And this is another show where they've made a lot of adaptive changes. I don't know if you've read those books. Yes. But I am at the point, it has been over 10 years since I read the books and I did not refresh myself.

[01:41:02] And I'm finally at a point where I'm nervous to make predictions because I'm worried it's remnants of memories left versus my own ideas. But I know they've also gone very far from the books, but I'm at a point where things are going to be surprising to me whether it's book canon or not.

[01:41:27] And Hugh Howey has been very tightly involved with the changes they're making and has even written some blog posts. I actually read an excerpt from one of his blogs talking about how some of the changes he approved because it's still on theme. Anyways, it's been really fun. It was fun to talk about. We just recorded yesterday, so I'm still like half Silo on the brain. Cool. I'll look forward to listening. All right.

[01:41:56] Well, that is our show. Thanks for listening, everybody. Until next time. I am King Aegon II. First and second of his name. No, no, I'm not. I am not. Not, not. I am absolutely not. Until next time. I'm Rennie. And I'm still Veronica. And I'm Wendy. Dracarys.

[01:42:37] So for the first part, book, show changes. I just have a few things to say. And then when we get to the spoilery part, I think we can do some, like, what the heck? Okay. Perfect. Okay.

[01:42:56] So in Helena's dream, a king's guard takes away newborn Malor, which is a nod to the book because in the book we've talked about before, Malor is taken away by a king's guard to try to safeguard him. But that doesn't work out so well. So I thought that was interesting to put that into Helena's dream.

[01:43:24] In the book, Corlees is in King's Landing the whole time. Everything that happens in this episode in Tumbleton is really show only. And like I said before, in the book, we know almost nothing about Ormond. And I think the show does a really good job of filling in his character. But I really don't know what the point of the show taking Corlees to Tumbleton is.

[01:43:48] If we need a character outside of the Ormond-Daron-Gwain group to serve as a witness, we already have Cat in Tumbleton. So I'm quite mystified about what the show's motivation for making that change with Corlees taking him to King's Landing or taking him to Tumbleton instead of keeping him in King's Landing is. I have a question for you about it, but I can't ask until spoilers. Spoilers. Okay. We'll come back to that.

[01:44:19] So in the book, rather than staying around Rook's rest, Sunfire makes his way to Dragon's Zone. And what happens is that there are sailors who see two dragons fighting. And then Grey Ghost, one of the wild dragons who's not claimed, is found dead. And people think the cannibal, the other wild dragon, was responsible for killing Grey Ghost.

[01:44:45] And Bela, who's not in King's Landing, she's only 14 in the book. And she's only been riding Moondancer, her dragon, for six months at that point. She's living on Dragonstone. And she doesn't believe that it was cannibal that killed Grey Ghost. So she wants to fly out and investigate. But Rhaenyra has left someone named Sir Robert Quince as Castellan of Dragonstone. And he forbids Bela to go and investigate because he thinks it's too dangerous. And he locks her in her chamber.

[01:45:18] So that's quite different from where Sunfire is in the show. And in the book, no one knows what causes Ulf to change sides. I think the show fills in a motive that really makes a lot of sense. I agree. So... I also like that it...

[01:45:44] It doesn't make Ulf just a despicable sort of, like, asshole. Like, you can really understand. Like, I still think it's valid people calling him a traitor and stuff. I think you can argue either way. But I like that he's a more complex character that you can empathize with somewhat going down this road. Like, that's more interesting than him just being a rotten idiot. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:46:13] Not an idiot. Yeah. I agree. So that's... That's, you know, it's an adaptive change where I think the show actually does really well. Your audio just got quite a bit quieter. Ah, that's because I just changed it to... So I could play the dragon roar. Okay. Because now we'll go into the spoiler section. Spoilers, spoilers.

[01:46:48] Okay. Yes, Dracarys, everyone. Dracarys spoiler warning. Okay, what was your question? Well, I just can't remember where Adam is during the first battle of Tumbleton.

[01:47:07] And if this is a mechanism to keep him out of the battle or put him at initial odds with Rhaenyra when there's really no other reason for him to super be at odds with Rhaenyra. Right. But now he's maybe worried about his dad being a captive in Tumbleton. So, like, I just envision her saying, go burn Tumbleton. Hugh's gonna get mad because he doesn't want to burn his wife. And Adam is gonna refuse because of his dad.

[01:47:35] And I also think Adam is in a weird spot where he might be at odds with Alan and Bela as well. Not at odds with Bela, but, like, I just wonder if this helps justify Adam's next moves. That makes sense. That totally makes sense. But remind me, I can't remember in the book. I know in the second Tumbleton, he's trying to, like, prove, oh, oh, no, I remember.

[01:48:03] In the book, he leaves because Rhaenyra is going to, is, like, paranoid that he's gonna double cross her anyways or something. But that's after First Tumbleton. Okay. Why isn't he at First Tumbleton? Is he? I don't think he is. Because the only dragons there are Hugh and Ulf. Yeah. It's not a dragon battle.

[01:48:27] It's just Hugh and Ulf are there, and they burn Tumbleton, and Adam just isn't there, and none of the other dragon riders are there. So I think they're going to change that. And I think Rhaenyra is going to say, like, go burn Tumbleton to the ground, and she won't make Adam go because she'll have empathy that his father's there. But I don't think she'll give Hugh that same grace because of his wife, maybe? I don't know.

[01:48:58] I'm just trying to figure out. That makes sense. Oh, wait. So what happens is we have the two betrayers, Hugh and Ulf, and then Rhaenyra starts to be suspicious of all of the lowborn dragon riders, including Adam and Nettles, right?

[01:49:20] And so Rhaenyra gives the order to go down to the dragon pit and apprehend Adam. But Corlys warns Adam, and Adam flies away, and then Rhaenyra throws Corlys into the dungeon.

[01:49:39] Okay, so maybe, actually, let me retcon what I said and say maybe, actually, it's that instead of her trying to chain Adam up and him escaping and then trying to prove his loyalty to her, or maybe he disobeys her to try to go save Corlys or something. Oh, maybe. Maybe that's what it is.

[01:50:04] But I just, like, they're changing that whole storyline, and there's no reason for her, like, the sheep stealer thing is so different. That's not going to play out quite that same way. And, like, yeah, I don't know. I don't know. I'm speculating a lot right now. Yeah.

[01:50:24] But I just feel like it's because they're changing the way all this plays out that I don't think they're going to have Rhaenyra trying to go after Adam because of just paranoia. I think it's going to be some sort of, like, he disobeys her because of Corlys being captive, and there's more justification for the fallout. That makes a lot of sense. Yeah.

[01:50:49] Do you think there's still going to be two Tumbletons, or do you think they might condense this into sort of one? Okay. I think there will be the second one because there isn't time to do the whole thing in one last episode, I don't think. You're right. So another thing, Miseria is half right when she says to Rhaenyra, you will be queen for many years and your children's children after you.

[01:51:20] Yeah. Rhaenyra will not be queen for many years, but her children's children will be because every Targaryen we've met in A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms and Game of Thrones is descended from Rhaenyra and Daemon. Yeah. I think that these dreams are enough to push.

[01:51:45] Helena has basically realized there's no happy ending for her and her children without destruction to everyone. Yeah. And so I think she is going to throw herself out the window and it's going to be apparent that she's pregnant and that will be enough. People will suspect, as they do in the book, that Rhaenyra has thrown her out of a window.

[01:52:10] And how could she not only throw her sister, but her pregnant sister out? And I think that will be enough to really, you know, trash her reputation more than it already is. I think that's a great speculation about what comes next. Yeah. Really good. Because she basically, I mean, that's what she saw is that there is no happy ending for her.

[01:52:39] Any which way she looks at it. If she submits to Rhaenyra, her child gets taken. And if she survives, she has to commit atrocities. And ultimately her family and humanity still succumbs to horrors. Yeah. Well, I think that would be- Do you think it'll happen now? Next episode. Or do you think it'll be next season? I feel like next episode. Next season. They gave her such a Helena. Yeah. Oh, you think next season? I kind of-

[01:53:09] No, next episode, yes. I think next episode. Because of how heavy this episode was on Helena. This was a by-by character kind of episode, yeah. And I just think we're going to end the season with one disaster after another. Yes. Building up for Rhaenyra. So that we start the next season in complete disarray. Well, and speaking of Dreamfire, in her vision when-

[01:53:39] Sorry, speaking of Helena. When- In her vision, when she's on Dreamfire, we see her say Dracarys, it looks like they're in the dragon pit. I saw speculation that that's her seeing, like, if she escaped during, like, the storming of the dragon pit or something. Yeah.

[01:53:58] I don't know if it matters what it is so much as it's her seeing a possible outcome that's not truly an option for her. Yeah. Do you think it- I was trying to decide if I thought it mattered what the context was. I don't think it does. Yeah.

[01:54:18] I really liked what Wendy was saying about the idea that that first dream she has is actually her seeing the future of Dany burning the city. I thought that was cool. But I was trying to understand if that would really fit with the narrative that the dreams were trying to show her, which was that here are your options and the outcomes.

[01:54:42] And that seems like it would be, like, don't follow the prophecy outline because she's going to still burn it all to the ground. So I don't know. Yeah. And I'm very curious about what the heck they're doing with Aegon and Sunfire. So in the Inside the Episode, Ryan Condal said, when Sunfire returns, quote, the entire power balance of the world just shifts at once in that moment, end quote.

[01:55:12] Aegon isn't in hiding. Sunfire is still in the mainland of Westeros. How is that going to work? Are there no survivors who saw Aegon and Sunfire? So Rhaenyra will assume that Vhagar did it? That's kind of what I was thinking. Will Aegon be able to sneak off to Dragonstone? Because if Rhaenyra knows Aegon and Sunfire are there, she could send all the dragons she has to go kill them.

[01:55:41] So that, I just don't know where they're going with that. Yeah. I mean, you would presume at least some of that army ran and somebody got away. Yeah. But. And as soon as word gets to Rhaenyra that Aegon and Sunfire are still alive, she's going to want to take care of that. I think so. You would think.

[01:56:11] Maybe they just disappear, though, and aren't findable. And a dragon that doesn't fly, it is much easier or much more difficult to find on dragon back in the air. So maybe. They are still able to slink around with just like whispers that maybe they're alive. Yeah.

[01:56:32] Or maybe the Battle of Tumble, Tumbleton will be so distracting that somehow the news doesn't make its way there. There's a lot of shit going on all at once right now. Yeah. Yeah. It's not possible. It seems unbelievable that like they found out about Thailand still being alive, but. I know. Not about Aegon.

[01:57:03] And I'm assuming that Rhaena and Sheepstealer are going to reunite because Sheepstealer was very pointedly not dead at the end of that battle. And Sheepstealer has a future role to play living in the mountains of the moon, being the dragon of the woods witch that creates the burned man who we see in Game of Thrones. So I think Rhaena and Sheepstealer do get back together. I mean, I think so.

[01:57:31] I think we'll still get some sort of additional break between Daemon and Rhaenyra. Yes. Where he runs off and allows Rhaena to come with him and they go do their thing. Yeah. But I just like this so much better than Rhaenyra suspecting he has like a lover. Yeah. Which I just don't even feel like she would be that threatened by.

[01:58:01] She wouldn't care. I just don't think she would super care. Right. And I think this is more interesting. And basically you stole her emotional charge of where she was directing all of her mourning. Right? All of her grief was going into anger towards the things she could blame.

[01:58:25] And taking that away and just making it an accident leaves her with nowhere to pile that grief anymore. Yes. And so it's disastrous. I should have said this on the main pod. It's not book talk. Oh, well. Well, everybody listening to book talk will hear it. So.

[01:58:44] The other thing, something you just said made me think another thing I meant to mention, though, is who the F did she leave in charge of King's Landing when they all flew off to go handle Sheepstealer? And again, that just shows her very rash decision making. Alan, I guess. No Alan. Oh. But, like, no dragons. I mean. Oh, right. You and Ulf made one of them, possibly.

[01:59:10] But, like, that's not a reliable defense of King's Landing. Yeah. I don't know. Like, literally, Tessarion and Daron could have just flown over and taken King's Landing in that moment. Yeah. Well, I guess Bela was there. Okay. You're right. You're right. Bela. I forgot about that.

[01:59:39] Bela didn't go with them. No. It was only Rhaenyra and Adam and Daemon. And so Bela was still back in King's Landing. Still not enough to handle it if Vhagar had taken flight. No. Enough to, like, ward off Tessarion, but not enough if Vhagar was still. Mm-hmm. Like, I just don't think they should be. They should just be assuming that Aemon could reappear with Vhagar at any time.

[02:00:09] But I don't think Rhaenyra was thinking things through. She was just acting on impulse. Yep. Yeah. Okay. Okay. That is all I have. Done. From the history of Hershey to the business behind the hit podcast, Acquired, Cold Call, the chart-topping management podcast from Harvard Business School,

[02:00:38] gives you a seat in the classroom where these legendary cases are brought to life. I'm Brian Kenney, the chief marketing and communications officer at Harvard Business School and the host of Cold Call, which explores the real-world case studies taught in our classrooms, featuring the professors who wrote them and often the executives, entrepreneurs, and innovators who lived them. In each episode, we break down the decisions, trade-offs, and leadership lessons behind some of the most fascinating organizations.

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