House of the Dragon S3E8 Listener Feedback

[00:00:00] Hmm? Ah! Hmm. Podcast to go! Hey everybody, I'm Wendy. I'm Rennie. And I'm Veronica.

[00:00:28] And this is Dragon Cast, a podcast dedicated to House of the Dragon. This week we are sharing all of the feedback we've received regarding the finale and season three as a whole. We'll also have some news and a final book talk for this season. And I won't be joining the final book talk because I was very ambitious thinking I would complete the reading. I did not complete it. I did some, but I am not up to caught up yet.

[00:00:56] Well, Wendy, it's like this. You have two years until season four. Yeah. So see if you can get it read by then. That's right. What do you think? I should just stop and start reading Knight of the Seven Kingdoms now. Oh, God. Yeah. No, that'll take you a while. Some of those books are pretty thick. Really? For Knight of the Seven Kingdoms? Oh, I'm sorry. Knight of the Seven Kingdoms. Sorry. Oh, yeah. I was thinking of the main Song of Ice and Fire series. Oh, oh. No, no. Yeah.

[00:01:25] Knight of the Seven Kingdom, you can definitely get through because it's- They're just novellas. Yeah. So they're delightfully short. Okay. I'm gonna definitely get that. I have read the first two books of- Okay. ...the main Game of Thrones, and that's where I am. I highly recommend the audiobooks as a way to read. The Knight of the Seven Kingdoms books are narrated by Harry Lloyd, who played- Oh.

[00:01:55] Daenerys' evil brother in the main series. Oh. The Serious. And he's quite good. Oh. And so audiobooks are definitely a good way to read the Knight of the Seven Kingdoms novellas and the main series. Yeah. Okay. All right. Let's move into some news. Rennie has picked up some great articles for us. Thank you.

[00:02:23] So House of the Dragons, Aegon actor is already getting I'm alive hollered at him, has A-plus response. And this is from Cinema Blend written by Corey Chicazola. It says, The House of the Dragons season three finale had some deaths and twists, but one line of dialogue quickly went viral as well. Namely, Aegon shouting I'm alive to his brother, Aemond.

[00:02:50] And actor Tom Glenn Carney revealed that folks are already yelling that line at him on the street. And his response was A-plus. House of the Dragons season three has a doozy, and the finale helped set up the fourth and final season. The episode saw Aegon and Aemond reunite at Harrenhal, despite the latter thinking the king had actually died.

[00:03:14] Glenn Carney's delivery of I'm alive was instantly iconic, and he took to Instagram stories to reveal how fans have reacted to him in real life. On his Instagram, there's a picture of him giving a peace sign, and it says thanks to all the huns shouting I'm alive at me in the street. Together we thrive. Well, at least he's got a good sense of humor about it. This bit of dialogue started going viral

[00:03:42] shortly after the finale aired, with hot D fans making a number of hilarious memes inspired by the actor's A-plus line reading. But it turns out that this is extended to funny in-person interactions with Tom Glenn Carney as well. So it's safe to say that the 31-year-old actor knows how the fandom has responded to his performance in the season three finale. That's awesome. And Veronica, kudos to you for your line reading.

[00:04:13] Hopefully that wasn't like terrible, and if it was, hopefully everybody gets a good laugh out of it. I've been loving the TikToks and everything. It's been great. It's so good. And I don't think I follow him on Instagram. I'll have to do that. I don't think I do either. All right. The next article is entitled, House of the Dragon Boss Promises to Do What Games of Thrones Couldn't. This is from AOL Entertainment.

[00:04:40] House of the Dragon showrunner Ryan Condal has promised fans that the series will have a memorable ending. In a recent interview, the veteran producer hyped up House of the Dragon season four, saying that the Game of Thrones prequel will have a fitting conclusion. We have an incredible season coming, the television writer remarked.

[00:05:04] As crazy and big as season three was, I think season four is going to be even bigger. It's a great privilege to be able to tell a story and to be able to control and write the ending, and to control when and where that happens. This is not a given in making television, certainly. We're very excited to get back in. We have new characters and new dragons and new locations all to come. Wow. New dragons. Yeah, that's...

[00:05:34] Hmm. I have some thoughts about that, but... Okay. But it's not obvious which dragons those might be. Okay, that I think are going to make it a very worthy final season. And I'm looking forward to doing it with one of my favorite people in the world, Emma Darcy. With just eight episodes remaining in the series, Condal and his team have several loose ends to tie up in House of the Dragons' final season.

[00:06:11] Hmm. I do think they've probably had the advantage of... Kind of being able to paint the whole story from the very beginning. And Game of Thrones didn't really have that. I mean, they sort of did, but not completely.

[00:06:42] Yeah. True. Yeah. I mean... I don't know. I didn't dig into all that at the time when Game of Thrones ended. But when they started in season one, did the writers know where they were going? No. With the Stark children and with Dany's character? I don't think they knew. I think they had to sit down with George R.R. Martin and find that out later. Yeah.

[00:07:11] That's true. They had a big meeting where Martin told them, in what they called broad strokes, where the story was going. And he told them some specific things, like what happens to Hodor and what happens to Shireen. And those were the two that they called WTF moments. And they said there were three of them,

[00:07:40] but they've never said what the third was. And at what point did they have that meeting? Was that... It was late. It was after. I'm not sure. Probably after season four, maybe season five. That's what I was thinking. Because Hodor and Shireen, I think, was season five, six. Okay. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Hmm. Interesting. Those were so great, too. Like, hard to imagine them just coming up with stuff that big. Yeah.

[00:08:10] From the beginning. So one dragon that we might see, who I don't think we've seen yet, is Tyraxes, who is Joffrey's dragon, Rhaenyra's son, Joffrey. Ah. So that's a dragon that we might see. There are also two wild dragons who we've heard mentioned, but never seen, Grey Ghost and the Cannibal. Mm-hmm. So possibly those could be dragons that we would see. And then also there are two dragons,

[00:08:40] Shrikos and Morgul, who are... Morgul is Jahera's dragon. Jahera's Allison's daughter, who's still alive, and Shrikos was Jaherys, the boy who has killed his dragon. And so they're very young, baby dragons. But those are the only dragons that appear in the book that we haven't seen yet, really. Mm-hmm.

[00:09:08] So it could be any of them that Ryan Condal's talking about. Don't know. Interesting. All right. House of the Dragons showrunner Ryan Condal confirms he is done with dragons, Targaryens, and thrones. This is by Therese Laxon from Collider. Interviewers... The interviewer says,

[00:09:48] Brian Condal says, Though the hows and whys of this story are yet to be revealed, we felt that we could only go so far with the Aemond the Destroyer storyline. Vhagar is great fun, but she is so all-powerful that we often have to ask ourselves, why couldn't Vhagar just kill everyone and everything? The idea that everyone is hunting Vhagar as a way of finding Aemon,

[00:10:14] one wounded man, without realizing they were separated, was great fun. I doubt Alice has much power over the world of dragon magic, but I would guess that Vhagar has been around for a long time and hasn't survived without being a canny old lady. Now that Rhaenyra and Daemon are weakened and Aegon has returned with Sunfire, let's see what happens next. The interviewer says, Ormond was a brilliant villain this season.

[00:10:42] I think we all really took a liking to James Norton's performance and how smarmy he could be. Ormond's death is one of the wildest scenes in the season. What made you guys go in that direction tonally? Was there ever a point where you thought about extending Ormond's time on the show simply because he's such a great villain? Ryan Condal... James Norton is great and I wish he could be in everything I make from here to the end of time, but the plan was always for a one season arc.

[00:11:12] His story perfectly sat within our season three plan and his work, though he paid for it with his life, has irrevocably damaged Rhaenyra and Daemon's cause while simultaneously strengthening the Greens. Better that Ormond leave us all wanting more and passed the torch to his nephews, Aegon and Aemond. I have to just give Ryan Condal a little correction here. Aegon and Aemond are not Ormond's nephews. They're his second cousins.

[00:11:40] Ormond and Alicent are cousins. He's not... Ormond is not Alicent's brother. That's... Gwaine is their uncle. Right. Gotta keep those very complicated and interbred family trees straight. Interviewer, how much of that symbiosis with Daemon is contributing to Rhaenyra becoming more extreme and turning her into Rhaenyra the Cruel... Sorry. How much of that symbiosis with Daemon

[00:12:10] is contributing to Rhaenyra becoming more extreme and turning her into the Rhaenyra the Cruel figure that she is known as in history, especially after she ordered Alan to kill the High Septon, Ryan Condal. Rhaenyra has tried to be a conciliator and a consensus builder, making compromise after compromise ever since her claim was stolen from beneath her. She has realized a sad truth about humanity. It understands black and white, light and dark,

[00:12:40] better than it does nuance. Interviewer, with season four being the final season of the show, I am very curious. If you could take on another era of the Targaryen dynasty, which one would you personally adopt? Adapt. Or which one would you be most excited to see adapted beyond Aegon's Conquest and A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms? Ryan Condal. I have really said all I have to or need to say

[00:13:10] about dragons and Targaryens and thrones. But I think the most interesting story left on the table is the story of the end of the Targaryen dynasty, but the one told from the point of view of the Targaryens themselves. Interviewer, do you mean the end of the Targaryen dynasty after Ares II, the Mad King, or one beyond that? Condal. Yes, I mean the accepted formal end of the dynasty with the death of Ares II, the Mad King.

[00:13:39] Now what's really interesting about that is that that's what the stage play, The Mad King, that's on in Stratford on Avon right now, that's what that's about. Interesting. Yeah. I really would like to see The Conquest. Same. Yes. I don't think that's going to be next, though. The Conquest is my number one on my wish list because I want to see Visenya riding the younger Vhagar and wielding Dark Sister. Yeah.

[00:14:10] All right. We can move into some feedback. From Lindsay Schlicht. Even though I've read the books, I'm still disappointed to see Rhaenyra so changed. As much as I love this world, the crazy women can't rule trope sucks. Dany and Rhaenyra were such amazing female characters we rarely get to see. Watching their demises so some guy can eventually take the throne is disheartening. Still love the shows, just a bit saddened.

[00:14:40] I hear that. I think that's what I was struggling with last week. Sort of just, yeah. Kind of sucks to see her. I think some of her strong moves make sense in that she's lost a lot and it's sort of like if she backs down at this point, she's literally lost both sons for this cause. What's the point, Ben?

[00:15:33] Yeah. I think she's just hardening herself against anything. It's that win. She's got to win at all costs. And that's not good. I mean, I have a little of that right now here. Mm-hmm. All right. Alicia Stout says, Helena jumped so Tommen could fall.

[00:16:02] Out that same window. Oof. After the Battle of Tumbleton, when Daemon wakes up after being knocked out and starts walking through all the destruction, I immediately thought of Arya in King's Landing after Daenerys destroyed the city in season eight episode, The Bells. The scenes were so eerily similar. Both of them are just walking around, almost in shock, surrounded by fire, ash, rubble,

[00:16:31] and dead or injured small folk. You can see on their faces that they're really taking in what just happened and the amount of innocent people who were killed. Just devastating. Also, Daemon fighting the Battle of Tumbleton on horseback while next to his dragon, instead of being on it, was very Daemon and not anything I was expecting to see. Amazing finale. There is so much to discuss after watching and I'm sure you'll discuss all of it

[00:17:00] on the podcast this week. Looking forward to hearing it and once again, thank you all for so much for the amazing work you do. I can't wait for season two of A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms, which will hopefully fill some of the void until season four of House of the Dragon. All right. And then I have some voicemails from Renee Murray. Hi, Renee, Wendy, and Veronica, my girl. Veronica, I miss you over there

[00:17:30] on the Wheel of Time. You guys are doing an awesome job and I have listened to every episode. I just have not had time to write in. But I was like, I'm going to make it to the finale and I'm so glad that y'all gave up enough time to call in. First, I have to give a rebuttal to Megan's voicemail because she said that Sir Crispy Cole was the most handsome man on Game of Thrones. I mean, on House of Dragons. And that everybody felt that way. Ma'am, I beg to differ.

[00:18:00] Now, I know beauty is subjective, but, you know, hey, that's her opinion. But my opinion, Lloyd Corleese, baby, with those blonde locks and that swagger and that chocolate skin, baby, he is fine, fine. And that man is swagalicious. He has swagger for days. And then Eamon and Damon, come on now, Damon, hey, Damon, Damon a mess, but he, Damon got swagger. And Eamon, he will forever be baby monk from the last kingdom.

[00:18:28] You know, he has that Uhtred of Vittenberg swagger along with that Damon swag. And yeah, you know, I just can't see Sir Crispy Cole. He was the whiny pants, and I just didn't like him at all. But again, I know it's subjective. Imagine how formidable they would have been if Damon and Eamon would have hooked up. You know, it's clear that Eamon admires Damon. He wants to be his uncle. And I understand that

[00:18:56] because uncles and aunties are like, you know, your second mothers and fathers. At least I am to my nieces and nephews. And they would have definitely been a team. However, because they are crazy. It's like they imploded upon each other. Like it is awful. And it's the parallels to real life, you know, with family. You know, it's amazing how family can implode from within.

[00:19:24] And you don't need outsiders to destroy the family. The family would do it itself. And that's exactly what the Targaryens did. And it is just sad. And that lady, I don't know her name, that talked to Massaria. I hope I'm pronouncing her name correctly. When she told her, hey, listen, baby, listen, a ho gonna be a ho and a ho gonna do ho shit. And I'm so glad that Raneria got rid of her. And it's like, Raneria,

[00:19:53] however she pronounced her name, you know, this Geechigullah accent. Like, girl, why are you so damn insecure? Girl, be a dragon. Do what you are supposed to do. Like, get your shit together. And listen, I'm down with it. I'm telling you, I am down with it. Because the sexism, the misogony, and the patriarchal system in the House of Dragons is, hey, it's like real life. You know what I'm saying? Hey, we living there right now. Just bullshit, okay? Just bullshit.

[00:20:22] Just awful. Awful, awful, awful, awful. But like I said, Damon, Damon and Caraxes. Damon, Damon, Damon. That's all I can say, man. And those Winter Wolves, when he put that sword and ripped him from the rooty to the tootie, I was like, he stood on business. Like, he stood on business. And, you know, I have read the books. And I'm not sure if I'm excited about what's going to come. Because I can live in this world.

[00:20:51] I've loved the world of Westeros. I really do. Like, it is just so fascinating to me. Fascinating to me. And oh, with his drunk ass, I forgot to meet him. I forgot to talk about him. His drunk ass. Like, you know, I understand Damon and Rennaro could have treated him better. However, technically, he is an employee. And he has responsibilities. And you can't just decide you're going to get drunk while you damn working. Like, it don't work like that.

[00:21:20] Like, his drunk ass has to go. And I am just so sad that it's over with. We got to wait two years. I know the Night of the Seven Kingdoms is coming. But man, two years. Life is out here. Life ain't. What the hell? How do we know what the hell? What's going on right now? You know, let me be quiet. Whatever. But yeah, I'm down with... I'm still Team Black. I love the Targaryens. I love Dany. Daenerys Stormborn.

[00:21:50] She will always be my girl. She can do no wrong in my eyes. The way that they treated her and the way they're treating Rennaria. Yeah, I'm all messed up too. I'm like Steve. If it wasn't for you guys, I would be totally lost. I love the book talk. I love the spoilers. I love everything. You ladies rock. All righty. Peace and love. Bye. Well, I do agree. Corleese is hot with those white dreads. He is.

[00:22:17] And for both Kristen and Ormond, both, like they're just... I just hate them so much. But then I'll see interviews with the actors and they're just so adorable, especially with their British accents. And I mean, they're just so... They seem like such great, nice and adorable guys. So then I'm like, aww. Yeah, I've had that same reaction. Uh-huh.

[00:22:45] I just saw Cassie was showing me an interview with the actor who plays Ormond. And he's so great. He's so sweet. I know. I bet he had a lot of fun. That's why it's called acting. Yeah. But I mean, even just like, it doesn't see... Like his face doesn't seem the same. Nothing seems the same about him. Yeah. Yeah. Really well done.

[00:23:14] And I have a little bit more from Renee. She got to thinking that she hadn't abused Allison enough. So she had to give another call back. She wasn't even in this episode there. I know. I'm sorry, Rennie, Veronica, and Wendy. I forgot to add. Allison. Allison, what in the hell? Like that lady literally poisoned her own son. When I say

[00:23:43] she is mommy dearest, she is she is the epitome of the... What the freak, man? That lady poisoned her own son. That lady is the reason why all this shit got started. Rennie, I think she said she's gonna always dislike Eamon. Veronica's gonna always dislike Crispy Cole. And I'm gonna always dislike Allison. I have no empathy for her. You know, I have no empathy for her at all.

[00:24:11] She didn't show her kids any love. She just was like, hey, I don't give a damn. I understand. She went through stuff. She was groomed. Whatever the case may be. But, damn. She poisoned her own son. Like, that's some that's some gangster shit right there. That's some Cersei wouldn't even do no shit like that. Like, I could not believe that. Like, yeah. Okay. Alrighty. Peace and love. Bye. And it's interesting because we talk about Rennie's actions, you know,

[00:24:40] and how it would all be all be waste wasted if she doesn't accomplish something. And it's the same thing for Allison. She did all of that because she thought she was saving Helena. Yeah. And when she gets back, there's gonna be hell to pay. Yeah. Yeah. And while I can't imagine ever

[00:25:09] poisoning your own child, I do still have empathy for Allison and how her arc has really been such a tragic arc for her. Yeah. Yeah. All right. I think it's your turn, Renn. Yes. Mary Patricia DeRigo says, love the Monty Python references. I really wanted Roddy to say, it's only a flesh wound

[00:25:39] when Ormond cut his arm off. Roddy was even dressed in black. Yes. Come back. I'll bite you. I'll bite your ankles. My Almardini says, the only person I'm rooting for right now is Gwaine Hightower. The rest can all suffer the same fate as Ormond. Yeah. Those seem like the only real good guy out there. Yeah.

[00:26:09] Giju Puthia says, Rennara is so concerned about being legitimized that she's forgetting that the daily decision she's making is ruling. This is where she is coming up short, taking care of her people, her dragon riders, the small folks. That is ruling. She's more caught up in the concept of her as a queen than actually being the queen. I think this is the whole problem. What a mess. Not going to

[00:26:38] end well. Brad Holt. Ormond, line the walls with children. That will give our attackers pause. Damon, fuck them kids. So, Cassie and I watched the finale just one more time yesterday because my father hadn't seen it yet. And she did track that those kids weren't burned. They were able to get away.

[00:27:07] Oh, really? Okay. I saw them moving, but I wasn't sure. Like, there was an alcove they went into. Okay. Yeah. Carissa Brewster just says, Welp. Alma Contreras says, Woo! Freaking Daemon Targaryen is a beast. Say what you will, but man, I love his badassery. And damn those wretched Hightowers for putting

[00:27:37] all those babies on the front line to face the savage Starks. I'm watching as I comment and I pray to the old gods in the new that Ormond has an ugly death. Prayer answered. O-M-F-G this battle has me on edge. I must admit the episode seemed to start a bit slow, but oof, boy did it turn into a spectacular finale. Tracarys bitches. I love that sign. Mm-hmm. Matt King.

[00:28:07] So, as a summary, Helena killed herself, Ormond was killed by a combination of the North and Ulf's dragon, Daron is missing, Tumbleton is destroyed with no real victory, and Ulf and his dragon kill anyone in their way. We can pick out Ulf for going rogue, and Hugh for failing his duty for no benefit, but Daemon choosing to ride his horse instead of controlling the skies with Caraxes ultimately was critical, leaving Ulf to

[00:28:37] get revenge on those that beat him. The Agen and Aemond scene was great, and bodes well for season four. I guess I didn't think about that. If Daemon had been on Caraxes, it might have been a very different thing, because he probably would have been able to. Subdual. But I do think Daemon was doing what Rhaenyra asked him to do. He tried. He was. Yeah. And I do

[00:29:06] think if he couldn't just burn his enemies, he was going to be really effective on the ground, as we've seen. Like, he's an incredible fighter. Yeah. Tafane Tabalt writes, the Joan of Arc visual for Rhaenyra is brilliant, with blood makeup that gives a dragon eye effect. And the comparison foreshadows her fate,

[00:29:35] but also echoes the political appropriation of Joan of Arc mythology by the far right in France using her image of savior of the nation against the invaders. It really resonates with Rhaenyra posturing herself as the rampart against the Night King, mirroring Daenerys' arc. Ormund's death and Aegon at Harrenhal was pure Game of Thrones spirit, so good. And I agree with what was said on the podcast about the finale bringing the plot closer to the book. When the

[00:30:05] book timeline will the last season end, do you think? Oh, that is such a good question. And Veronica and I have talked a lot about that and we really wonder because there are several different points at which they could choose to end the story. Yeah. You mean after season, like the ending of season four? The ending of season four, yes. So it's not obvious? No. No. Hmm. No. There's a,

[00:30:34] okay, that's the end point. And then there's another, okay, that's really the end point. And then there's another point where, okay, that was the end, but we had more to say. Yeah. I'm interested. Yeah. All right. We have a call from Jenny Ryan. Hello. It's, um, my name is Jenny. Um, you might know who I am from other podcasts. I've never called this one, but I have

[00:31:04] listened and I've never really had anything to say and you all cover it so well. So why would I bother chiming in? But this time I had something to say. I just wanted to talk about what's been happening with Miss area. That's her name, right? The lady whisperer. We're whisperer lady. Just sartorily, I think what's happening with her character is very interesting. Have you noticed she's wearing like

[00:31:35] whatever King's Landing version of a blazer is? She's now a business lady. Anyway, they've got her wearing like structured jackets, which makes me laugh because she never really seemed like a structured jacket type before. But I guess, you know, dress for the job you want and what she wants to be is, I guess, the boss. Okay. That's all.

[00:32:04] Nothing earth shattering here. Just wanted to call. Okay. I think you're doing a great job. Bye. Thanks, thanks, Jenny. Thanks, Jenny. I think that's a really neat point and I want to pay closer attention to I want to go back. I'm going to start back with season one and do a rewatch and I want to pay attention to sort of more subtle things like that, especially like sometimes when I'm podcasting I'm paying too much attention, if that makes sense.

[00:32:33] And then when I sit back and watch it, I can catch new things. So I want to and I'm definitely going to pay attention to sort of the evolution of Masaria's clothing throughout. All right. And then we have a message from Rima Jo. She said, for me, Roddy was the best part of the season. That and my favorite murder noodle, Caraxes. Which is a great name for the dragons. noodle. Yes.

[00:33:04] Especially for Caraxes. Yeah. Yeah. If you ask me who my favorite character is, I think I have to say Caraxes. Yeah. And we got a lot of Caraxes. A lot of Caraxes. Yeah. Mm hmm. Yeah. I mean, I don't I we had so much of the dragons and I suspect we'll have maybe even more next season. I hope so. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Next on Dragoncast,

[00:33:34] we will see you all back here when we cover the second season of Night of the Seven Kingdoms to see the next adventure of Duncan Egg. Don't forget to stay tuned for our final book talk. All right. That's our show, our season, our hearts and our minds. Thank you so much for following along this season. It's meant a lot. Until next time, I'm Rennie. I'll still be Veronica. And I'm Wendy.

[00:34:05] Dracarys. All right. Okay. Book talk. So we'll start with the where we just

[00:34:35] talked about what has happened up until this point. And then we'll make an announcement when we get into the spoilers. spoilers. And Veronica, you and I are going to have to watch each other that we don't wander into spoiler territory early because there are several things here that just kind of cry out for talking about what's to come. I just read up through the end of Tumbleton right before the podcast so that I had in my mind like where

[00:35:05] this really stops and what we know in the book. So I'll try to be good, but it's hard. I know. So the episode title, The Treasons, of Tumbleton is a phrase right out of the book. So. Yeah, I liked that. Yeah, same. In the book, Damon is not at Tumbleton. No, nor is Corliss. Or yeah, or Coraxes, right. Nor is Corliss, nor is Gwaine. Gwaine has been dead for quite a

[00:35:34] while in the book. He was the second in command of the gold cloaks and he was killed as soon as Rhaenyra took over the city. But I think that they've repurposed his character in a really great way because, you know, there's the law of conservation of characters in TV adaptations where there's all kinds of different characters in a book. But if you can combine them in a show, then it's easier for the show audience to follow and you only have to have one actor.

[00:36:04] And so they've given things to Gwaine to do that I just think have worked really, really well. And it really allowed Darren to have, like, we did not know his real feelings about his cousin until Gwaine got there and then we finally got to have him in conversations where we learned a lot. That's right. Yes. And helpful. So the proposal that Gwaine makes, that is then modified by

[00:36:34] Corlys, right, to let Daron rule and then it's just let him be Lord Paramount of the Reach, that really echoes the one that's made by Alicent in the book. And it's right as she's finding out, like, that all the dragons have left to either go to Tumbleton and to hunt Vhagar. Right. So it makes sense, like, it was done in the same sort of vein in this. Yes, I agree. So in the book, Tumbleton is held

[00:37:03] by the blacks, not the greens, and it has its own small garrison that has been reinforced by the Riverlands army and the Winter Wolves. And it's the Hightower army that attacks the town from the outside, although there are greens infiltrators among the defenders in the town. And Roddy, the Ruin, and the Winter Wolves come out of the town and attack the Hightower flank,

[00:37:33] fighting their way through ten times their own number. Yeah. And Roddy fights his way to where Ormond is, where one of Ormond's men, not Ormond himself, takes off Roddy's shield arm with an axe, but Roddy still manages to kill the guy who attacked him and Ormond before he himself dies. So I thought the way they adapted it worked perfectly well. Really,

[00:38:03] really well, I think. Yeah. So, Daron and Tessarion are taking part in the battle. they attack the black troops who are outside the walls while Ulf and Silverwing burn the town, and then the infiltrators

[00:38:33] who are inside the city open the gates. I liked that they, like, in the book there's sort of, like, a cheer that goes up at one point from everyone inside the town which would have been the blacks, like you just said. And I liked that they still did that in the show, like, when Ulf first appeared you hear the black army all cheer and then, like, immediately stop cheering when he, like, opens fire

[00:39:03] on them. Yeah. I thought it was cool that they still, like, got that little snippet of the cheer. I don't know why that stuck out to me from the book. No, that's good. I like that. Yeah. Like that observation. The book reports that nobody really knows why Ulf turned. And I think the show does a great job of supplying a very plausible reason. In the book there's speculation that it was cowardice or avarice, but they don't, nobody really knows, but it's very clear

[00:39:33] in the show it's because both sides have humiliated him and not taken him seriously and forgotten that he has a very big dragon. So very differently, which is interesting. Am I cutting out? Yeah, say that again. Sorry. I thought the way that they adapted Hugh's betrayal to just be that he didn't show up for the battle at all was interesting.

[00:40:04] Yes. It felt more true to the, I was expecting Hugh to be on his dragon and turn for some reason and I just couldn't fathom that with his character. Right. And so this had a similar like major impact on the battle, but still I think kept Hugh as this distinct and interesting person. Agreed. Completely agree. So this is a quote from the book. The sack that followed was as savage as any in the

[00:40:34] history of Westeros. Tumbleton, that prosperous market town, was reduced to ash and embers. I think we saw that already. Yeah. And I think we also are set up for Ormond has just been taken out and he was kind of the only reason his troops were behaving. And so I'm curious if we will have a further

[00:41:03] like vicious sort of I just don't understand who's going to be keeping things in shape in Tumbleton, even though the greens are successful there. Right. Okay. So in the book, Alicent never leaves King's Landing. She's there when word of the Tumbleton battle reaches the city and she laughs. She says, all they

[00:41:33] have sowed now they shall reap. And Rhaenyra orders the city gates barred because she fears that turncloaks will open them for the rebel army, which she expects to be marching her way. And Joffrey, who's a bit older in the book than he is in the show, says, let them come. I will meet them on Tyraxes. Do you think this should be in the spoiler part? No,

[00:42:02] because it's just what he says. Okay. He just says that. Okay. And he says it at the point where we are in the show. Okay. Yeah. And at this point in the book, Aegon and Sunfire have not yet reunited. Right. Yeah. So it's also not clear whether Helena was murdered or threw herself out of the window.

[00:42:32] one of the possible explanations for why that if she threw herself out the window was that Messaria had chosen that night to tell Helena about her son, Maelor's grisly death. The son that she's pregnant with in the show who's a baby in the book. But if that was what motivated Helena to kill herself, Messaria's motive for doing so is unknown according to the book except for

[00:43:02] simple malice. And I think it's very interesting that in the show, Messaria is the last person to speak to Helena, telling her that there's no way out of her prison. So in a way, that is congruent with the book. That's interesting. Because Messaria doesn't seem to do it out of malice in the show, but the effect is the same. one thing we don't get in the show, which I wish they had done, and they could have done it

[00:43:32] cheaply, is that when Helena dies, Dreamfire rose suddenly with a roar that shook the dragon pit, snapping two of the chains that bound her. And if they couldn't afford to do the dragon animation, they could have just showed us someone in the dragon pit and made the sound of Dreamfire roaring, and somebody could have said, oh, Dreamfire's roaring. Yeah, I think that would have been really cool, like sort of a

[00:44:01] cutscene as Rhaenyra is giving that talk. And you could have almost thought that it was roaring because that was happening, and then you would realize it was because Helena had jumped. Wow, yeah, that would have been great. I should write the show. You should write the show. And at this point, Bela is indeed locked in her room, but not at King's Landing. She's at Dragonstone. And the Castellan has locked her in her room

[00:44:30] because she wants to fly out on Moondancer and find out what happened to Grey Ghost, the wild dragon whose partially eaten body has been found by fishermen. And people think at that point that it could have been the cannibal. The cannibal. Yeah. And that's all I have before we move into the spoiler section. Do you have anything to add pre-spoilers?

[00:45:01] I don't think so. Let's do it in spoilers because I don't feel confident of when these events happen. Okay. All right. This is your warning. We are moving into spoilers.

[00:45:33] And we can just imagine that that was Dreamfire roaring when Helena dies. R.I.P. Helena. So it the phrase treasons of Tumbleton in the book is plural because of course it's both Hugh and Ulf who are burning Tumbleton with both dragons. Daemon is not at Tumbleton

[00:46:03] because he's with Nettles searching for Aemond and Vhagar who are riding around in the Riverlands burning things together. They do one thing that seems to me to come from Second Tumbleton which is that Ulf sleeps through Second Tumbleton and they find him asleep in the privy in this battle. Maybe that was yeah maybe it's foreshadowing

[00:46:32] just that this is who Ulf is going to be in any battle. Yeah. So fear of in King's Landing fear of the coming attack after they hear about the Battle of Tumbleton fuels the rise of the shepherd. And Rhaenyra killing the High Septon which does not happen in the book surely will fuel something like that in the show. That's what I'm anticipating too.

[00:47:02] I've heard a lot of speculation that Missaria may take the place of the shepherd. Ooh. Yeah. Or at least she'll be behind him. Yeah. Yeah. So in Tumbleton the Greens are leaderless and in disarray. Daron is described like this he's still a boy the youngest of Queen Allison's sons. He had grown up in the shadow of his elder brothers and was

[00:47:32] more used to following commands than giving them. Yeah. And one of the people who tries to take control is Sir Hobart Hightower who is Ormond's cousin. And in the show this role is clearly going to be taken by Wayne. John Roxton the guy who fought with Damon he also claims leadership and I wonder what they're going to do with John Roxton's character. Something I mean they've obviously continued to

[00:48:02] like incorporate him in important ways. Yes. I think it's very interesting that Corlys proposes marrying Raina to Daron because after the dance is concluded in the books Raina marries one of Ormond's sons but Ormond doesn't seem to have any sons in the show. Because Gwaine says that he's the heir to Highgarden. Gwaine says he himself is the heir to Highgarden.

[00:48:31] So that would Who are they going to have her marry then? Gwaine? I don't know. But I don't think that he's going to survive the show because I think Gwaine will play the role in the Caltrops plot that Hobart Hightower plays in the book. Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. They ended Helena a little bit earlier than it happens in the book because it's her death that provokes the

[00:49:01] riot that leads to the storming of the dragon pit. I didn't remember how. Yeah. I think I'm dreading. I think that is going to be one of the hardest things to watch happen next season. Like that just sounds awful and I'm dreading it. Yeah. So here's the big events that I think that they have to do in season four. The shepherd and the storming of the dragon pit. Aemond and

[00:49:30] Daemon in the battle over the god's eye. Rhaenyra's flight from King's Landing to Dusk and Del. They may or may not do the three kings in King's Landing. They have to do second Tumbleton. And then Rhaenyra fleeing to Dragonstone to meet her fate. And I thought so I wrote this note before I had seen that news story from Ryan Condal.

[00:49:58] I cut out part of that story where I thought it was a little spoilery because he says that Daemon or sorry that Aegon isn't on Dragonstone right now but who knows where he may go in the future. So I think maybe that event will happen on Dragonstone after all. I think so. And in the book Sunfire has a battle with

[00:50:28] Moondancer and that's where he gets the wounds that he already has now. The right side of his face gets burned. That's already done. That's done. Yeah. Are you feeling? Oh sorry go ahead. I was just going to say I really don't know where they're going with the Aegon story. Is he going to go to Tumbledore? Ormond is dead but Darren isn't so he still may want to go to Tumbledore. Is Alice going to intervene somehow and

[00:50:58] bewitch Aegon like she did Daemon and Aemon to keep him on ice for the first part of the season? I don't know. It's yeah. Yeah. It's a mystery. I hope we get to see some of Aegon and Aemon sort of riding together bonding and looking for Vhagar. Like I hope it's not just immediately okay we found Vhagar and things are back in action. That would be interesting. Yeah. I like that.

[00:51:28] I'm guessing I mean right now we have what's her dang name? Tabitha Frey on the way to Harrenhal with men and so we have Aemond and Aegon leaving Harrenhal so I'm guessing that Tabitha and her men are going to arrive while they're gone and we'll still get that scene of him burning things down again. Yeah. It just feels like how many times is Vhagar

[00:51:58] going to arrive and burn stuff down but I just don't think they would have had Tabitha Frey introduced and sent off to Harrenhal if we weren't going to get that. Yeah. It's Sabatha Frey. Oh Sabatha. Okay. Yeah. It's one of the names that George R. Martin has made up by just changing one letter in an ordinary name. Just a mess with us. Yes.

[00:52:28] And then I think what they've done to set up I mean I think I'm a little annoyed at Corlys being as butthurt as he is about his sons not being legitimized. I know. But other than that I think they've set up enough like I don't think she's going to have this all dragon seeds are our terrible reaction necessarily to Ulf and drive Adam away like

[00:52:58] that I think Adam is going to leave because he thinks that she's making terrible decisions and treating him bad. I'm guessing. Yeah. And then try to redeem himself by going to Tumbleton. But I feel like they've already set them up to be at odds with each other. And I wonder I don't know I just will Adam try to get Bela to leave with him like what are they going to do with Bela? Will she just be locked away all of season

[00:53:27] four or will she leave with Adam possibly? Good question. Yeah. I hope they have a plan for where they're going with these storylines. I think they do. I'm excited to see it play out and I'm sort of pleased with how much they've changed so that we are guessing this much about what might happen. Yeah.

[00:53:57] And of course you know the places where they could end they could end with Rhaenyra's death but I think that would be a weird place to end because that leaves Aegon as king and that's not so great. So I think they have to go at least until the end of Aegon II's reign. But I don't think that they're going to give us much if anything of Aegon III. I don't think so either.

[00:54:27] I'm still just trying to understand what device they're going like what storytelling device they're going to use to wrap up some of the loose ends or if they'll just leave it a little unwrapped like in my head we need to know like who Reyna and Bela marry and like all of these trickle down things. Yeah I don't think we're gonna get that we just

[00:54:57] don't need to. I don't know. But it seems weird to not resolve some of that. I know. Yeah. Yeah. Well and there's the whole thing with Viserys Aegon III's little brother Viserys being held prisoner in Pentos and Alan and Alan is the one who finds out

[00:55:26] about that and brings him back and I just I don't think we're gonna get any of that. I think that just her two sons will come back safely together possibly if they even like I think they have to bring them back otherwise there's this unresolved she still has two children at large but I think it will just be a they're back and this is the plan of succession. You know they might bring him back okay because one of the

[00:55:56] things that has to happen is that both of their dragons have to get killed right because Aegon III's dragon didn't get killed in the Battle of the Gullet and so if they bring Aegon and Viserys back with Aegon's dragon in the first episode and put Aegon's dragon in the dragon pit that would be a way to kill off that

[00:56:26] dragon yeah because Aegon really needs to be there when Rhaenyra dies because that that's what gave him his great fear of dragons and why he's called Aegon the dragon's bane yeah yeah I don't know I don't know how they're going to do that but I think they'll probably just bring them both

[00:56:57] together somehow yeah I think so I don't think it's going to be Alan going to rescue anybody no I don't think so well they could send Alan to bring them home yeah I don't know I'm just going to trust they have a plan and that it'll work and I am guessing we have Daemon sneaking Reyna out of King's Landing to go get Sheepstealer

[00:57:26] probably yeah I don't think Sheepstealer is dead and I think Reyna and Sheepstealer will reunite I think so too I don't have anything else I don't think yeah that's that's all I have for now looking forward to season four me too and I hope that they are able to do what Ryan Condal said in that new story that

[00:57:56] to give it a good ending yeah I definitely at least think the pacing has set them up for more success sort of knowing the full story knowing where they want to go and being able to plan it out ahead of time in four seasons yeah okay

[00:58:22] house of the dragon that could be like a menstrual thing you know it's because we're trying to record on Sunday the universe like knows it's not the normal day we could include our

[00:58:51] blooper reel for this yeah from the history of Hershey to the business behind the hit podcast acquired cold call the chart topping management podcast from Harvard business school gives you a seat in the classroom where these legendary cases are brought to life I'm Brian Kenny the chief marketing and communications officer at Harvard business school and the host of cold call which explores the real world case studies taught in our classrooms featuring the professors who wrote them and often the executives entrepreneurs and innovators who lived them

[00:59:21] in each episode we break down the decisions trade-offs and leadership lessons behind some of the most fascinating organizations not to mention we just dropped a new video series examining AI case studies like the Atlantic's partnership with open AI Mass General Brigham's use of AI to streamline clinical documentation and Harvard Art Museum's experimentation with generative AI so don't miss out follow or watch cold call on Apple podcasts Spotify YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts podcasts