House of the Dragon S3E8 "The Treasons at Tumbleton"

[00:00:00] Hmm? Ah! Hmm. Podcast to go!

[00:00:36] Cannot be. You are dead. I'm alive! Imbecile!

[00:01:09] And I'm Veronica. And this is Dragon Cast, a podcast dedicated to House of the Dragon. This week we are discussing the finale of Season 3 of House of the Dragon, The Treasons at Tumbleton. Or, as Rhaenyra says when she's speaking High Valyrian, Tommeleton! That's sad.

[00:01:33] I feel like it went so quickly. Like, I feel like it just started. Yeah. I feel very sad. Well, you know, Season 3 was only six episodes because Episodes 1 and 2 were really Seasons, Episodes 7 and 8 of Season 2. Yeah. You said it was gonna begin and end with a battle. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yep.

[00:02:00] It ended exactly where I thought that this season would end. Mm-hmm. I don't know why I ever try to have any predictions of my own. Well, people who listen to BookTok know that Veronica thought that they were gonna pack in approximately four times as much stuff into this episode as they actually did. Yeah. And I felt like they packed in a ton. Yeah. They did. They really, really did. I mean, it could have been two hours long, you know. Yeah. I wouldn't have been upset.

[00:02:31] Oh, easily. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I have a theory that the only reason that they didn't let Daron fly out on Tessarion is because they couldn't afford to put another dragon in. Yeah. I wondered about that. Yeah. It's been strange to not have him. I know. At least flying out as a lookout or something. Although I guess there have been much larger dragons looming the whole season over them. Mm-hmm.

[00:03:02] All right. I'm just gonna skip to this part. At the end of the battle, I thought we saw Tessarion fly. No? No. That was Silverwing followed by Caraxes followed by Vermithor without a rider. And I don't think Caraxes had a—I don't think Daemon was on Caraxes either. Oh. I paused it and tried to really look. I'm not 100%. Okay.

[00:03:28] But I also thought it was Tessarion on first watch. We read on the internet different. And then I like— ...framed. And I could not see Daemon on Caraxes, although I would have expected that he was there. But that makes a lot more sense if he's not on Caraxes because I thought, what is happening here? Is Daemon chasing Ulf on Silverwing, in which case there would be a dragon battle?

[00:03:56] Well, that would be a weird place to end. But if Caraxes and Vermithor are just following Silverwing, then there wouldn't be a dragon battle. So that makes more sense. So I bet Daemon's not in that saddle. It did look like Caraxes, like, nipped at him or something. Just like he did to Sheepstealer. Yeah. He was, like, telling him to land. He was, like, bumping him so that he would land. And I thought that was Tessarion.

[00:04:26] No. So I got that completely wrong. That was definitely Caraxes. No, I knew it was Caraxes. I thought the dragon in the front was Tessarion. No, that was Silverwing. So that was Ulf. And you can see Ulf on his back. Yep. Ulf is definitely on Silverwing. Tessarion is much smaller and very blue. So— Yeah, I thought the dragon was smaller. I thought it looked blue also, Wendy, on first watch. Like, I really thought—I was so confused. Yeah.

[00:04:56] But— Well, anyway, I think that that last dragon scene was a little bit hard to figure out exactly what was happening. I just sort of saw it as Caraxes being, like, the super-trained dog and, like, sort of nipping at the other dog trying to hurt it. Like, hey, you're not actually supposed to be doing this, but not, like, getting into a serious fight because he didn't have Damon there. I can accept that. But I really don't know. Yeah.

[00:05:25] I don't know either. Caraxes is such a good dog. Came on a whistle. Yeah, Damon says Caraxes, and here he comes. Yep. And maybe one of—I think between Damon and Caraxes and Aegon and Sunfire, like, I've never wanted a dragon so much as watching their interactions this season. Yeah. All right, I have a lot of notes.

[00:05:56] Yeah. And so do I. Same. Where do we want to start? Overall impression? I feel a little mixed. Me too. I loved it, and I loved it a lot more on second watch. I did like it more on second watch, and I want to go—like, I still want to go watch again. I actually want to start the whole season over and watch it again. I don't know. I don't know.

[00:06:24] Even with all the buildup to the downfall of Rhaenyra, it still felt like a rushed switch. Switch. Not like—like, I do think they gave time leading, and I expected her to get here, but this felt too extreme too fast at a weird point.

[00:06:46] I almost could, like, imagine it if it was after finding out Ulf betrayed her and really realizing how—I don't know. It—something felt off to me in that. But many other things I loved. I think the problem with that isn't this season. I think it's that Rhaenyra was just way too sympathetic in seasons one and two.

[00:07:12] You know, if you go back to Game of Thrones, Daenerys' turn was very, very sudden. But part of it is because people weren't paying attention. She ran around those first several seasons saying, I will burn cities to the ground! And everybody thought, oh, cute, cute little blonde girl, you know? Yeah. She meant it.

[00:07:35] But I feel like, yes, I totally get that it feels a little rushed to some folks, but I feel like this episode helped me get there. Especially Helena's part in it. Like, by the end, I was like, yes, I sort of feel like I understand what's happened. And where she is at.

[00:08:03] And it's not a good place, but it's just such an incredible story. Yeah. That I'm happy and excited that they did it. Well, my first point is called Rhaenyra chooses Daemon. Yes. Go for it. So, I think it's a very interesting shot when we first see Daemon in this episode.

[00:08:30] He's looking at his armor, which is on the stand. And he's looking at it as if he's looking at someone else. So, he's sort of looking at himself in an interesting way. And then when, excuse me, when Rhaenyra comes in, she looks at the armor almost like she might put his armor on. And I think that's exactly what she does, metaphorically speaking. Notice how her outfits are looking more and more like she's a dragon.

[00:09:00] That cape she was wearing had dragon scales. The outfit she was wearing before she put on the armor had scales. And when she puts on her own armor, it has wings at the shoulders. Little dragon wings. I loved it. It was really spectacular. It was. So, she's transforming into the dragon. And Daemon says to her, You have an absolute power within your grasp.

[00:09:30] You have only to wield it. And we saw that in the trailers. And that line ended up coming in the last episode. And I think that's what she decides. She decides to wield her absolute power. She tells Daemon not to make her a monster by burning the civilians at Tumulton. But she makes herself into a monster. By murdering the high septum.

[00:09:56] I've seen a couple of references that she kills the Pope. The high septum. And then she does this very strange thing. She spills the prophecy. You know, she talks about it publicly when it was a big secret. But her standing there proclaiming that she herself is the prince who was promised in Valyrian. If Daemon had been there,

[00:10:26] he would have come in his pants over that, right? That's exactly what he wants. Yeah. So in the inside the episode, Ryan Condal said that Rhaenyra has realized at the end that finally she has to become Daemon Targaryen, essentially, if she's going to win this war. And the director called it a Darth Vader moment when she comes out on that balcony.

[00:10:56] And Emma Darcy themselves said, this is about fascist imagery. Emma Darcy goes on to say, Rhaenyra begins the season doubtful of her rightness. I think by the end of episode eight, she's resolute in her wrongness, which I thought was a really clever thing to say about it.

[00:11:24] I really like everything Emma Darcy has said about Rhaenyra. I think they really have a great grasp on that character. And then Senoya Mazzono, who plays Mysaria, said Rhaenyra has chosen the path with Daemon and there's no space for Mysaria. Suddenly, here's this person who's a fascist, who I helped raise up, which is completely against all my beliefs, meaning Mysaria's.

[00:11:53] And Helena recognized what was happening to Rhaenyra, the way that Rhaenyra's depicted on the tapestry, is she's on the throne with a sword in her hand, dripping blood with a dying dragon wrapped around her. So, yes, Rhaenyra has gone to the dark side. And spoiler alert, I don't think she's coming back.

[00:12:22] Yeah, I guess I was more forgiving. I felt like Rhaenyra realized that it was the only path forward. That she had tried to be the conciliator. She had tried to be the realm's delight. And she failed when she tried to do those things.

[00:12:50] And so, at the end, when she looks at Helena's tapestry, I don't think she saw anything except, I'm on the throne. Yeah. That's assuring herself. Because she did believe in Helena's gifts. And it meant something to her to see it there. She believes it.

[00:13:19] And she doesn't look at anything else. She doesn't think about the sister that she just kind of drove to madness to do what she did. She only thinks that no matter the cost, she is sitting on that throne. Yeah. But her behavior now is turning people who should be allies against her. Look at the way she treats Bela.

[00:13:50] Yeah. I mean, the way she treats everyone. Everyone? Yeah. I mean, I made a list of all the things the Blacks did wrong. It's a big list. So, you know, so I think she could go harder. She could become more aggressive in order to stay on the throne. But she could be more judicious about keeping her allies close.

[00:14:21] Yeah. If she had kept Ulf close, that might not have happened. Yes. Although it might still have. I don't know. I think if Rhaenyra and Daemon both had treated Ulf and Hugh, Yeah. who also disobeys orders. Yeah. If they'd treated them more like they would treat someone

[00:14:48] they thought of as a peer, the way they would treat them if they were lords. Yeah. I think it would have been much less likely. But also, don't expect a man to sit at King's Landing while you attack the city where his wife is. Exactly. I mean, like, that's just not realistic.

[00:15:15] You have to come to terms with the reality of the situation. But in terms of Ulf, they might have had a little bit of a screening process before they let them into Climate Dragon. Yes. Yeah. I mean, Hugh would have been a good candidate. And if they'd just recognized that, I mean, Rhaenyra knows his wife is at Tumbleton and Yeah. doesn't figure out how to deal with that.

[00:15:45] Or doesn't even really doesn't care. talk to them about it. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Veronica. Oh, I don't even know where to go after that. I guess, like, I was just trying to decide if I had anything else to say about Rhaenyra because that was sort of where I started to. But I think that hits most of it. I'm just I think it is what you said. Sort of.

[00:16:13] They made her too likable. But I don't know. I feel like I want to go rewatch because she did make a lot of rash decisions and she didn't really have a lot of guidance from Viserys, especially in her adult years. She left King's Landing. So like not that he was the best example, but she just wasn't even preparing herself for ruling

[00:16:42] and how difficult it would be. But I think I'm just still having a hard time wrapping my head around some of these choices, like just how stupid they've been every step of the way when it seems so obvious. And I just want to go back and was was she really that stupid all along? Well, you know, her first maybe stupid decision was

[00:17:11] to have kids with Harwin Strong. Yeah. You know, it But what choice did she have? Well, she did have a choice, which was she could have had heirs who were not her own children. She has these half siblings, right? Yeah. She could have just been okay with Yeah. that if she and uh Laenor Laenor I was going to say Laris I think there's such pressure

[00:17:42] to get heirs. Like that's so much pressure is put on them and they married her to somebody that they knew probably wouldn't be able to do that. I can't blame Rhaenyra for that. How'd she think she was going to get away with it? I think she just thought it's it's the only option to me, you know? Well, it's not. They could have had their marriage dissolved some years later

[00:18:10] and she could have remarried. Which essentially she did. She could that's right. She could have gone to Viserys and said look we've actually tried but this isn't going to work I'm not going to be able to produce an heir with this husband so we need to get this marriage dissolved. the half Targaryen lover. That's right. Would have probably been better.

[00:18:40] Yeah. I don't know. I think just some of the things she did like how she treated Helena forcing the food down Helena's throat and you know going back to what you already mentioned but like the equivalent of you would not kill the Pope and assume that means all the Catholic faith is now going to follow you because you

[00:19:11] killed him. Like that's not how it works. That's right. And so it's like I could understand her saying well I don't need you or saying well you are you know threat to the throne so I'm going to put you in the cells but to have him killed right there in the sept I don't know it seemed so reckless. And and not turn to the next guy and say okay you're high septum now come anoint me.

[00:19:40] That's right. Like I can buy her treating Bela really terribly because she's so in her pain about Jace like I can buy some of that still stupid behavior and like mean and I can buy her wanting to kill Aemond and Aegon and even like I could buy her having you know wanting to take Helena's offspring but some of

[00:20:10] this felt so extreme but I yeah I don't know I can't decide what is because I just don't want this character to be that because I liked her and what is because it feels too far and I don't know yeah I'm gonna have to rewatch and think about it yeah I think she you know I suppose it's a very human thing to do she's turning her anger on Bela

[00:20:39] very unjustly because Bela is really at 0% fault but she can't be mad at Jace so she's mad at Bela in Jace's place because Jace is the one who locked her in the in the room and went off and then just did Bela come along and you know Bela went along because she wanted to help protect Jace and now Bela's mourning him too so instead of joining together in their grief Reyna

[00:21:08] is unjustly angry at Bela I do think Bela like she said that it was Rhaenyra's fault that Corlys was gone and I didn't think that was fair I know I decided to go Rhaenyra wanted him there after telling Rhaenyra off yeah in saying things to her that most people would have lost their head for although maybe Bela's saying um that it's Rhaenyra's fault

[00:21:38] because she refused to legitimize Alan and Adam yeah yeah maybe it was so I mean because Bela Bela now has a vested interest in having Alan legitimized oh sure yep and I I think Rhaenyra meant it when she said she would do it just not right now yeah and I think that was reasonable yeah

[00:22:08] I I do think it's a little different her scolding Bela Bela has been raised since infancy with this sense of fealty and duty but Hugh and Alf have not that's true and so while Bela is still doing her bidding even after all that you know Hugh and Alf did well and and they

[00:22:38] probably understand that what they've been promised may not come to fruition but Rhaenyra has taken one of her dragons off the board because as Adam says she's grounded Bela and locked her in her room that's not a smart move yeah no that's no that's not yeah it's not just you know speaking harshly to Bela she's done more than that and she's

[00:23:07] as my mother would have said caught off her nose to spite her face by doing so I think I mean I guess that goes back to this crazy Targaryen belief one that like they are more than men and so people should just naturally like want to worship them in a godlike way but then also like I thought it was so strange that not

[00:23:36] strange like it made sense within how she's been acting in the show but just that Rhaenyra assumed if she told this prophecy that now you're gonna tell us and obviously like it was just it's that Targaryen sort of like arrogance that you know they are people should just want to follow them

[00:24:06] because and they're part of prophecies and like it was so easy for her to believe it because she's been raised up in this echo chamber of that but to you know the common people standing in front of her she just sounded like a raving mad person especially ending it in the high valerian which I think really did invoke that like the way she said the words

[00:24:36] it very much sounded like a fascist speech from you know like a hit or something it was well done I thought she didn't read the room yeah that's for sure so strange because and think about all these people have been through the last six months and then this big battle that is happening on the same day no one's gonna remember that I think it's

[00:25:06] just a blip yeah I did think her makeup and her outfit she reminded me of the wicked queen in snow white yes exactly what I there was a thing in the inside the episode about that eye makeup thing that they did and I guess they tried a few different things and then it came up with that particular look I think

[00:25:36] it makes her eyes look a little bit reptilian like yeah yeah it definitely had a different look to her I thought it worked definitely yeah it was very dramatic and evoked the transformation they were trying to portray really well Wendy

[00:26:04] so much I'm gonna start with Helena I was so sad to see Helena's ending come I was hoping I was really really hoping for some spectacular scene with just like Rhaenice did with Melis I was hoping for something like that with Dream Fire and even when she first went to the window that's kind of what I thought is like

[00:26:34] maybe she's looking for Dream Fire or something but it did occur to me before the final but she starts out the episode crying just to give you a synopsis of like what her mood is how she's been she doesn't appear to be able to see her daughter at all she's getting an hour outside a day which that being outside is really important to Helena

[00:27:03] and she's trapped she sees the gray mare and the wagon from her dreams and then Myceria comes along and just pounds it all into her telling her that Rhaenyra will never release her that her children will be held hostage um Rhaenyra comes in and she's placating Helena she Helena tells her the story of the beautiful beetle and

[00:27:34] Rhaenyra is just placating Helena she treats her her like a child like she can't see through Rhaenyra's motivations or Rhaenyra's trying to seem kind but failing miserably at it and she says that all the things that Rhaenyra wants are ugly and that Rhaenyra's ugly and I don't think she means the outside um and then Rhaenyra allows the guards

[00:28:04] to force feed her which was terrible and I think she just gives up she won't fight to live she won't fight to escape that's not who she is that's not what she wants um and so I think she's kind of leave it and it's so heartbreaking

[00:28:34] I believe I've heard a few people say that was out the same door that Tommen had exited as well yep and Rhaenyra comes in and sees what's happened and just shuts that door and steals her heart against it again I was disappointed that Helena died but I thought it was an incredible ending for her character I'm glad they

[00:29:03] gave that to her the the tapestry that she's weaving seemed to contain all of that and she's been weaving it since long before the battle started Tumbleton burning her own demise and as you said Rennie Rhaenyra on the Iron Throne with blood and fire and blood all around her

[00:29:33] the actress via Saban who plays the part inside the episode said that tapestry is an externalization of the things that Helena sees and she's working towards this meta finishing point and the last image is of Helena herself going out the window and Helena looks like a butterfly in that tapestry she's falling down but almost looks like she has wings beautiful

[00:30:03] blue wings which is interesting because you know she's always greens but she's wearing blue in that tapestry and then we get just the only little snippet of Allison that we get in the whole episode is after Helena dies she sees a cluster of butterflies fly you know and that was pretty much Allison's only motivation for going forward was to

[00:30:32] salvage Helena and she didn't no she still has her granddaughter Jahara though yeah who's who's in Rhaenyra's grasp yes that's right yeah and I just thought about Allison and Rhaenyra's relationship after basically backing Allison into a corner where she was forced to attempt to kill her son there was no coming back from that between them I don't think

[00:31:01] but this is a whole other thing so in the in the book there's uncertainty as to whether Helena threw herself out that window or whether somebody else threw her out the window and she was murdered and in just reading the book before the show ever existed I always preferred the murdered explanation but I could see this whole season the direction that they were

[00:31:31] taking this story in yeah and they didn't show her jumping like they did with Tom and yeah but I think it is it does seem pretty clear I also noticed that I think we had thought Allison was alone with just the one man to protect her no but she had a few men with her yeah I always thought she had a guard and when she walked out of her and she had to be walking back to those guards yeah there's no way she could make it

[00:32:00] I was so confused about it like what is the plan here so that made a lot more sense but we know that she she does have a guard taking her back and those would be the blacks so they're going to take her back to King's landing correct yeah yeah all right all right point is actually about Damon my first point was

[00:32:30] Rhaenyra my second point is Damon and my question about Damon in this episode is something in him burned away in this episode so Ryan Condal says we wanted to see Damon as the great legendary warrior once again at the head of this battle and the director Andre Peric said that he wanted Damon to have a sort of brave heart moment you know when he rides this up and down giving the speech I don't want

[00:33:00] your best I want your worst and then Damon has to the winter wolves don't get the gate open fast enough so he has to use caraxes to burn through the gate and there's children in front of the gate and he tells them to go away and he so he does end up burning two of

[00:33:30] them and then there's that great shot of Caraxes head breaking through the gate from the inside that was awesome yeah very like Jurassic Park yeah yes yeah I loved it but then Damon goes gets off the dragon he's not gonna he's not gonna burn people inside and he gets his horse and he rides in and he fights like a regular soldier um and

[00:34:00] uh then he gets in a one-on-one fight with bull John Roxton and they fight with their two Valyrian steel swords dark sister and okay I was I was wondering who that was I couldn't identify that that's like right hand dude the one that took Corliss and stuff right so um T Mickle the co-writer of this episode said um Ryan and I got together early on and we said okay

[00:34:30] Damon is gonna be at this fight that means the sword dark sister is going to be at this fight John Roxton is also here and he has a Valyrian steel sword of his own called Orphan Maker as fans we wanted to see that fight two seasoned warriors two Valyrian steel swords two of our favorites having a go well sure of course but they dropped the swords they dropped the swords and then they duke

[00:35:00] it out that was so weird the first time I saw it before I seen this inside the episode I was shouting at my TV they dropped the swords so inside the episode Matt Smith said he didn't want it to be just a sword fight he wanted it to be what he calls a punch up it's a very British term a punch up a bar brawl and so I guess that's why they went that way with the fight choreography but Damon's

[00:35:29] losing he's losing Bull John Roxton has the better by dragon fire which brings down a building in between the two of them but then I think that this battle scene does a very interesting thing with Damon which is it puts him on the ground in the aftermath of a dragon attack this would be like the first time yeah

[00:35:59] he's never seen a battle from this side before certainly not a burned city with civilian casualties and there's that sequence where he's looking at all of the you know we're seeing the women carrying dead children the burned people all the you know civilian casualties horses and we're seeing them through Damon's eyes it's him who's looking at this

[00:36:30] and I wonder if he's been changed by come back a little bit from the darkness one really interesting thing happens in the battle which is John Roxton sticks his thumb into Damon's left eye and almost gouges his eye out which would make Damon even more like Amon his left eye is the

[00:37:07] sequence and series of events with Damon in this battle it was so good it was just so good on the second watch it's just amazing I like slowed down and went back and Matt Smith wow like this is the role of a lifetime for him it really is yeah I mean he's amazing yeah he could basically

[00:37:37] being surrounded and fighting his way out I hated that his horse got taken down but yeah but did you notice that his horse's armor has a dragon face plate yes it's so awesome yeah his eye did look fine later on yeah yes I know it's like oh you didn't even get a bruise from that I can't believe I ever doubted the casting of Matt Smith in this role because yes

[00:38:06] he is great I didn't know him and then right after I watched season one I watched The Crown and he was fabulous in that very different show but but oh but oh that his portrayal of Prince Philip is Prince Philip is a monster also yeah but the only thing I'd seen him in was Doctor Who which is completely different yeah and after just seeing Doctor Who I thought oh

[00:38:36] how is he going to meet Daemon Targaryen but then I did see the crown later and I thought oh if I'd seen this I would never have doubted him and now after this season give that man an Emmy yeah right that that scene really was very reminiscent of Arya in the aftermath of the bells yeah or Jon Snow when he was on the ground in the battle of bastards yes it reminded me of that like the sound gets muffled

[00:39:05] and you know just ash and sparks flying through the air I mean it was beautifully done amazing and it's there's a real call back to Arya after the battle of the bells because a riderless horse goes by yep and he stares at it he stares after it yeah it was interesting I felt like there were lots I mean we've mentioned like four or five of them already but echoes of game of thrones things that were happening in this episode

[00:39:34] interesting lots of Starks yes Veronica let's see what do I want to talk about I think I want to sort of focus on the fact that the Valerians are getting alienated kind of all together and I'm curious what that's going to mean for next season

[00:40:05] but we already talked about Bela and how she's like at odds with Rhaenyra this whole season but particularly this episode kind of begging her to go rescue Corlys and Rhaenyra denying it Alan is making some significant and serious choices

[00:40:34] and I can't decide you know Adam tries to call him out and say like you're basically like ascending in our father's place but I feel like he's doing exactly what Corlys told him to do which is to serve Rhaenyra in his place I don't think Corlys would agree with the decisions that he's made and I am curious how like Alan's face didn't look

[00:41:03] terribly resolute there standing on the I mean we saw Maester Orwell looking at him and he didn't look okay and so even though he's been making some decisions that are questionable like I don't I think something's gonna break in him between now and next season sort of having made those choices and I think Adam maybe planted the seed I

[00:41:33] think Adam is definitely at odds with Rhaenyra again like not a great thing to have happening because Bela and Adam are two of your dragon riders so what are you thinking um yeah you just lost one and then Corlys I mean we get him back but Daemon calls him his prisoner I don't know if you guys caught that yeah although by the end Corlys does

[00:42:02] go in to call Daemon out yeah which was a little surprising but I think again it goes to like he basically dragged Daemon out of there because Daemon seems stunned and not working on all cylinders and I don't know that like I'm not saying Corlys is not always the best voice of reason or always making the best recommendations but at this point like he's the most level-headed of any of them

[00:42:31] and he is trying to be reasonable and be like look like we're not in as good of a position as we were we may need to make concessions in the name of peace and obviously Daemon doesn't hear that and I don't anticipate Rhaenyra would listen to that at all which just to me is putting them completely like they're the strongest ally she has they have dragons they have ships and men and experience

[00:43:00] and she is basically going to alienate that entire family and that yeah I don't know where they're going to land because they don't I don't envision them like turning over to be pro greens but like something is happening there that's not great for team why didn't Adam just say to the valerians that the plan was specifically to attack tumbleton by foot

[00:43:30] and not dragon so that corliss and the other allies might be saved that was the truth I feel like that's all he had to say yeah yeah but he's you know he's not used to his position yeah and I think he's probably stressed and trying to do the right thing and it's just

[00:44:00] I don't know I mean it was weird to me the idea of Alan not wanting to go save corliss after he saved corliss multiple times at this point I just think he's going to regret his decisions shortly but I don't know yeah it'll be very interesting to see where they go next with that and how like dad's

[00:44:29] about to come home with Damon like what is he going to say when he finds out that Alan followed Rhaenyra's instructions and slew the high septum like corliss is going to be furious well but he should be furious at Rhaenyra really yeah yeah because what what what realistically could Alan have done right especially given sort of

[00:44:59] the tone yeah she was willing to kill the high septum she's probably gonna be pissed at you if you're not going to follow her orders like you don't even have a name to yourself really yet right right I'm curious though to see where that lands because if they do become at odds with Rhaenyra I don't see them although Darren is a Darren and Gwaine

[00:45:29] seem like a potential like reasonable duo that I could see swaying some of these people that like don't want to get behind Aegon or Rhaenyra but I mean I don't realistically envision that I do understand Rhaenyra and Daemon's position in some ways it does feel like to some extent it's all gone too far to say we're gonna

[00:45:58] make up with Darren and make him the regent of the oh no I don't I don't I'm not like Corlys was trying to be reasonable I don't think that was good advice especially because there's also Aegon and Aemond like yeah you can't just say oh we'll set this youngest brother up so like I don't think I wasn't trying to say that like I thought I think Corlys is the most level headed in terms of being like reasonable about the odds they're up

[00:46:28] against I don't think that was the right solution to land on or that it would have worked out for anyone I think it's all they had in truth if if they weren't going to just fight to the death that's all they really had they didn't know what was going to happen with all so they thought right they were looking at definite try does that yeah um Gawain is alive at the end right that we know yeah

[00:46:57] we saw him he was so muddy it was hard to recognize him but that was him I'll just go back to the battle yeah um the white wolves was just spectacular I've loved their arc all season it's been great we needed it too um Orman's face when he realizes that Daron and Gawain have betrayed him was spectacular as well so good just watching this guy get his

[00:47:27] I think that's why we had him slamming a sword into the table earlier when he was mad about something because that was the exact same look on his face and I really thought he was gonna whack his sword into a wall or something there but all we needed was that look and we knew how mad he was yep uh Roderick says that's the gates open there lads and we are still fucking alive and they're all that was so good

[00:47:59] and then Ormond versus the white wolf Roderick it was just so amazing maybe one of the best deaths in either series so spectacular Ormond first gets his teeth smashed him with Roddy shield and then Ormond stabs Roddy chops off his arm and Roddy sprays blood in Ormond's mouth which completely disarms him giving him the opening to

[00:48:29] stab him up the ass oh my god and then you see silver wing coming in for the burn and at first I thought that was random but no Alf did that purposefully yeah no he saw Ormond on the wall yeah and Ormond is saying no no no and Roddy is saying yeah yes with his arms wide or yeah

[00:48:58] so his arm and stub yeah loved it loved every second of it what do you think about Roddy just being like looking at the kid hesitating and then just being like both he and Damon were like okay fuck these kids I guess I mean what are you gonna do like not do it yeah I know at the end of the day though it's not gonna matter who was responsible

[00:49:28] for putting the kids out there or whose team Ulf was on or not Rhaenyra made choices that led to death and destruction of innocence is what the theme is gonna be from the small folk and and the small words through the land right like she's yeah you should have just sent Craxes in to burn it all because might as well have might as well have and at least come away victorious and you know

[00:49:58] I started out the episode really bitter about that like I was I watched we watched this with our kids and I was like why are they even going in like you're making yourself attack somebody on the defensive that you don't really need to you could have sieged them out you could have you know I mean like I know Corliss is in there and they're like her allies are in there but

[00:50:29] did you really think it was just gonna be as easy as going in and and just killing the high towers like that's what I kind of thought in the beginning but I accepted it because it was spectacular by the end but in the beginning I was just like why are you even going into this city you don't need that city it doesn't offer you anything but it's a show of weakness and only yeah

[00:50:59] even worse because she's a queen right but it's a sign of weakness that she's allowing this stronghold of people that are so vehemently against her not only have they overtaken Tumbleton which is supposed to belong to her and she's just sitting there in King's Landing with them the next town over sitting there in her face essentially but also they're causing unrest within

[00:51:28] King's Landing too and so I think it is that talk with Daemon at the beginning about like it just comes down to being strong then yeah you're kind I have to be strong it is Daemon's fault so I think yeah and I think that's what it is yeah but they didn't need to do that no they didn't yeah and they certainly gained nothing they kind of did because Aegon's back well yeah so they have to crush

[00:51:57] Ormond's army so that Aegon yeah and Aemond can't come join forces with Ormond's army yeah I just think maybe a siege but wouldn't have been as interesting but if they set up a siege and Aegon and Aemond come flying in with Sunfire and Vhagar that's true dragons don't yeah yep

[00:52:28] all right back to you Rennie all right the title of the episode is the treasons plural treasons at Tumbleton so I thought I would figure out how many treasons there are so Damon calls Corleese a traitor for trying to negotiate a peace following Gwaine's proposal so that's one one treason ormond sees Gwaine and Daron

[00:52:58] as traitors for putting forth a peace proposal Hugh abandons King's Landing where he's been told to stay and guard the city in order to come to Tumbleton that's a betrayal and Ulf is just a flat out traitor so I think there's four treasons at Tumbleton and then there's

[00:53:27] another treason in King's Landing because Rhaenyra calls the High Septon a traitor so there's five treasons some may say her killing the High Septon might be well you can call that something you can't call it treason because technically treason is just a crime against the ruler the current the current ruler yeah and you could say that Daron

[00:53:57] was the king so he had the right to trump Ormond well but you know Ormond goes back on that Daron being king thing when he knights Daron because he says you have to be knighted before you can be crowned king so you're not quite king yet right and he makes him swear fealty too not to the realm but to himself yeah yeah

[00:54:28] that was that was a strange version of the the knighting ceremony yeah and itself a self-serving version from Ormond yeah yeah so I think those were the those were the treasons some of which are going to have very long standing

[00:54:58] effects yep um I'm very curious what what Hugh's situation is because he's he's there Vermithor flew off without him he's holding his dead wife yeah so he's in the

[00:55:28] city that is still held by the greens and is it still held by the greens yeah because the the daemon and corlis and their forces the survivors they they they left so if it's held by anybody right it's held by the greens it might be held by nobody yeah yeah or by Ulf uh yeah

[00:55:57] well Ulf still you know still flying around on his dragon so if he could just shake caraxes off his tail i think he's okay yeah but you know what does he do now i mean if he was smart he would fly far far far away he's not smart though no correct he's gonna fly to the closest bar yeah him the way he yells dracarus i mean he just

[00:56:27] sounds like the biggest like kick on the back of a dragon like i love it so much yeah well this is so much um in um the house that dragons built tom bennett said when i read the script there were two moments when i had to put the script down and just take a moment and go is this really happening do i really get to see the say the word dracarus i mean that actor is all

[00:56:56] in real life it feels like i mean just the most hilarious and endearing uh character like even he's making like he's double crossing everyone and i still a little bit was like rooting for him this episode i mean you he was so mistreated yeah by both sides that you're kind of like yeah burn everybody i mean on the other hand did to him

[00:57:26] exactly what damon did that's right like threw him out in the street and embarrassed him and it's like terrible you literally i understand you're mad that your little plan didn't go out but this guy rides a dragon like consequences are he burnt you yep and how can you be surprised you think that guy's gonna now go do your bidding you think that guy really thinks

[00:57:55] you're gonna give him drift mark yeah i mean he probably did initially but he has to think you know they're both using me which they are yeah yep all right that was just a brief one veronica back to you okay so excited to talk about a god it's coming riding on sunfire

[00:58:26] and he's alive alive so great my god i'm alive alive yeah let's give tom glenn carney an emmy too oh my gosh yeah i mean i really felt like if they do a remake of the shining like that's the energy he brought has brought to the last two episodes um he is just like unhinged crazy but like happy crazy like he's just so happy

[00:58:55] to be alive and reunited with his dragon and he is ready to stir shit up and like i did not predict i would be cheering agon's like uprising but here we are it's so enjoyable to watch um and like the interaction with amond i mean i feel like you're right rennie that we

[00:59:25] have seen this like parallel path of both damon and amond becoming humbler versions of themselves um they still i think have a lot of fight left in them but it's definitely they're not the same characters that they were a season ago and amond is just like defeated i mean he really is i think rather than anger at what allison

[00:59:55] did i think there's just sadness i think he's repentant and there's recognition of how his own actions helped him get here instead of what we saw sort of the rest of this season was him sort of wallowing in self-pity now there's sort of this ownership of his own role and where he got and he takes all the wind out of egan's sails by being that

[01:00:24] repentant sorrowful brother who's ready to serve which i think is going to serve egan's purposes much better than if he'd rode in and um fought him and even if he'd killed him i think this is a much stronger position for him to be in um so yeah they're uh gonna go ride off together and find egan and then they're gonna go find that twat

[01:00:54] daron and ormond and put them in line and then they're gonna march on king's landing and then maybe he'll forgive eamond you forgot they're gonna put renair's head on a spike first right right yeah it was spectacular so good and we've never seen eamond like this like he's always been confident sure of himself he never seemed to hesitate even when he almost finished eamond off he just laughed at cole

[01:01:24] about it like we've just never seen him like this and it really is eamond's rising and eamond's fallen and humbled and broken like we've never seen him and it's it was so great and i think eamond came there to die like eamond came there and he was like i'm gonna kill my brother or die trying it's gonna happen and so you know he pivoted pretty quickly

[01:01:54] i loved the lead into that scene where we saw eamond hear a dragon and you when you first hear that just the footsteps you think it might be vegar but then when you hear the the dragon calls you know that's not vegar but you don't know what dragon it is and eamond's looking around for this mysterious dragon and then whoa that came out of nowhere for eamond yep i thought it

[01:02:24] might be a dream too because there's been so many dream sequences at heron hall but it was great i love slap yeah helped i think eamond wasn't sure if it was a dream either until the slap yep i also loved him referring to alice rivers as my betrothed and like everyone else in the room looked very surprised yeah yeah yeah it was so good i could watch that 10 more times

[01:02:54] same i people that have already made so many clips of just that little scene and i just i love it i want it as my ringtone yeah so i'm still on board for continuing to watch a next season i hope they're able to continue to balance him being somewhat likable throughout what's probably going to be some despicable moves but i don't know

[01:03:24] i need someone to root for it's interesting yeah i think yeah as much as you know renera has lowered in most people's opinions opinions and aegons get you know they're evening out i mean the nice thing about daemon is i do feel like i can still cheer for him because he's kind of consistently been like both heroic and despicable at the same time and so like he's like

[01:03:54] this consistent through line of like i've already accepted what a terrible person he is and i'm still gonna follow him but it's hard for renera when she started so high she's falling so low i did give daemon some credit because he did as renera asked and ordered everyone to not kill discriminately um and that you know he specifically said renera's moral standing depended on it

[01:04:23] yeah now when they got in there they kind of didn't act that way but he at least did say it yeah it's hard to know who did what i feel like also once they were in the city those soldiers were doing the all right wendy well we learned something about alice oh my god this is a big reveal yeah yeah

[01:04:53] so we learned that alice was heron's wife and that her son was the one who was burned terribly and alice tried everything to save his life and i guess she tried some unnatural means of doing that which ultimately were not successful but then she had to pay a price for that because she was cursed

[01:05:25] cursed to serve whoever is the lord of harrenhal and cursed to live forever yes she would be about 150 because amon says that was 100 years ago which is a simplification it was actually 130 years ago if she was a you know 20 that would make her 150 years old not amon's eye lighting up when he finds out she's over 100 and leaning in to kiss her he definitely has a type

[01:05:55] my partner brought up like oh that's probably why he likes vegar too like she's an old mommy as well yeah and i just wonder if she's serious about staying with amon it's a little hard to figure out if she's really serious about that or not what does that bring her or is she just looking to get a son out of that and can she get us on that those are good questions ryan condal

[01:06:24] did say um we have more to learn about alice rivers it's good i like her character it's been it's been a good arc as well yeah really find it interesting and i was excited i didn't know if they would leave her as just a mystery or if we would get unveiling details like this so it's kind of cool i think it says something that she revealed that to amon because she

[01:06:53] probably hasn't revealed that to other people yeah something's going on there you have so much to say that you're not saying that you're gonna save for book talk exactly yeah so this this backstory of alice rivers being black hair and whore as widow this is show only this isn't from the book i feel like there's more and more of that

[01:07:23] as we go on yeah there is yeah you know it's interesting though because i feel like in this season they really departed from the books but this episode brought us back a lot really did yeah where the battle of tumbleton left off is very much where it left off in the book i think i can even start to see some of the divergences how they're even though it's still diverging how they're using that altered storyline

[01:07:53] to curve around yeah to the same like path as the book yeah which is really interesting yeah all right anybody have more points i just have notes i have notes same okay i swear there was a monty python reference in this episode when damon says to roddy are you still

[01:08:22] willing to die for the dragon queen and and roddy says i can't fucking wait and then damon says okay go in over the east wall or whatever he says and and open open the gates and uh roddy says okay uh we'll do that and and damon says open the gate first before you die and roddy says i gates open then die that's a monty python routine

[01:08:51] in in monty python and the holy grail there's um there's a whole sequence where a guard is being given orders and he keeps repeating them wrong like you know go down the hall open the cell put the prisoner in the cell and and the guard says like okay take the prisoner out of the cell go down the hall open the door right and that it just the way that roddy says i

[01:09:21] gates open then die it just felt like bonnie python yeah they should have had him say like tis but a scratch yeah yeah it's only a flash wound um i did notice that he finally does get a name damon refers to him as lord roderick and that's the first time that we've heard his name um but black alley blackwood still doesn't get a name

[01:09:50] or she's named in the credits but um you look on imdb she's credited as black alley blackwood and she's still alive right we didn't see her die yeah we did not see her yeah she rode in with oscar yeah i was gonna say oscar tully better be alive i i don't know a whole series about him i know i don't think they can just kill him off screen i don't think no i don't think so

[01:10:19] yeah um but black alley did get a line yep boring she didn't get a name but she got a line um one of the things that rhaenyra says to bala is insolence runs in your blood which i thought was a very interesting way to phrase that which blood does she mean exactly she's probably referring to the velaryon blood because corlys was insolent by saying your children are bastards but bala's

[01:10:48] half targaryen she's she meant daemon she yeah but that means that reneira's referring to her own blood she's daemon's daughter reneira's stepdaughter and cousin by blood so and reneira was fairly insolent as a child as well that is also true yes yeah um uh

[01:11:17] okay here's a little critique about medieval battle tactics they say ormond says uh something about the siege engines and they have um catapults on the on the wall that are flinging stones outward well wrong siege engines are used from outside of fortifications against fortifications to knock the wall down against the

[01:11:46] approaching army so that was like did anybody look anything up about medieval battle tactics no i have a question yeah the offer that gawain and daron offer daemon and corliss kind of yeah pushes them aside makes his own offer daemon said unequivocally no he didn't even consider it do you think reneira would have considered it no there's no way that you

[01:12:15] can certainly not consider gawain's original offer which is to divide the kingdom yeah um that actually is an echo of something in the book um where there's a proposal made to divide the kingdom and reneira's answer in the book to that proposal is uh uh nope no way no how nope um and and there's something that's slightly deceptive also

[01:12:43] um i think it was gawain who said uh that before um the the aegon's conquest that there were many kingdoms ruled by many kings and they were at peace that's not true the the pre-targaryen westeros there were con there was constant warfare among the the smaller kingdoms so just like europe

[01:13:12] yeah just like europe exactly yeah yeah so that that didn't make a whole lot of sense but no i don't think yeah it's it would be possible to accept a proposal like that because it would be a constant threat if then i thought it was funny of corliss to offer up reyna in marriage i know i was like you haven't seen her lately corliss well and it was it was kind of random because reyna's the younger daughter so why didn't he

[01:13:42] offer his older daughter it almost seemed like he knew that alan and bala had gotten together but how could he possibly know that it happened after he was taken prisoner so that was a little weird yeah i think sometimes they the writers lose a little bit of their sense of who knows what at what time yeah uh and that was it that was everything else i had we've already talked

[01:14:11] about i thought it was funny when they couldn't find ulf and damon says what do you mean he has a very large dragon i like that part yeah i liked that ulf was poking fun at the various relationships between damon and rhaenyra yes in the tavern drinking and just spilling everything just telling the entire

[01:14:41] plan yes um gawain says that when they look out and see the army massing against them and daron says how will we face them and gawain says we will face them we will face the enemy bravely and pointlessly i respected gawain he just

[01:15:11] keeps doing his duty even though and they keep trying to kill him and he lives through it all but he stays true to his principles his beliefs yes it seems like i wonder if the actual reason that daron has turned out as a somewhat decent human is because gawain was around rather than ormond i'm sure yeah

[01:15:42] because again this episode he was so appalled at the idea of any men out there fighting on his behalf while he sat behind protected walls let alone the fact that he knew there were young children out there yeah he just it just once again was this reaffirmation that daron is somehow this targaryen son that turned out okay so we just kind of don't know where he is at the end right

[01:16:12] right hmm i found it a little unbelievable how unburnt ormond was when john roxton came and found him and it confirmed that he was dead but like a dragon just breathed fire into your face yeah i think he should have been crispier but i think he wasn't because they wanted us to recognize him yep they wanted but it should have been like show roddy's body on top of him

[01:16:41] and his helmet and that would have been enough but yeah it i find it interesting that we haven't spoken about this area oh right she's gonna be a problem for a real big big big problem why would you leave someone who has obvious spies inside your yeah you killed the high septum but you just let her go yeah well she thought she was

[01:17:12] banishing her to pentos but miss aria slipped off of the wagon yeah seems like that was not a good move no and i felt really bad for joffrey who just seems poor joffrey and i think that's just part of renera's hardening is that she can't she can't let him in because she

[01:17:42] can't lose another child that she loves we need we should forget she still has two more sons yeah yeah but i mean she just she can't let any of them in you know yeah she's just hardened herself against caring about anything other than that throne yeah she curses viserys for the first time yeah this episode and she begins speaking like you said in

[01:18:11] such like a she's empty and hollow and very formal in talking to everyone except for daemon because she was crying like a child over the realization of aegon still being alive but everyone else this episode once she sort of resolved herself at the end of that conversation that was a beautiful scene shell between her and daemon where they're speaking in hi valerian it was like she comes

[01:18:41] in almost not able to breathe hyperventilating and little by little daemon just pumps her up and pumps her up until she's you know at least standing yeah that was a nice scene like the two of them talking so beautifully to each other they really should have just ridden their dragons off together into the

[01:19:11] sunset left all this behind yeah okay my only other note i had is that tasarian was especially beautiful they've done such a nice job with the dragons i really wanted him to fly out on her yeah i think she's gonna be just i convinced myself that that was tasarian i know i really had thought so too yeah it's you know we've only

[01:19:41] seen daron flying on tasarian one time and it was at the end of season two when he was just gliding along with the army and that's it yeah oh right that's all i had that's all i have all right let's talk about some news so the first one is just um that the episode got a

[01:20:10] 9.1 rating on imdb which is up from last week's which was an 8.3 uh and almost as high as the first two episodes which were 9.2 and 9.3 respectively so people really liked the finale i thought it was spectacular all right house of the dragon star shares the bright side of the tragic final twist

[01:20:39] this is this is by the hollywood reporter by josh wiggler via saban chats with the hollywood reporter about building out the dream seeing queen's final chapter how much did you know about helena's fate in advance when i got the job i spent a lot of time googling and searching the wikis so i've always known this was coming plus there are so many fans out there in the world and i know so many people who knew it would

[01:21:09] make a point to tell me about what was going to happen to me people are the worst i know yeah when it's a show this big with a character fate this crucial is it pretty much impossible to avoid that kind of spoiler on your end totally it was never an option not to know i'm just happy i made it three seasons you've had a lot of time to think about her death then what are some of your first thoughts when you think about the

[01:21:39] character now that her arc ends in this way objectively it's very sad the story is sad i love helena i feel for helena i try to find hope by thinking she felt as though she had been killed already in many ways but it's very sad but for me kind of a bucket list thing i got to die on tv i got to do the thing where you keep your eyes open everybody wants to do that do they

[01:22:08] i i guess i i thought she had a great arc yeah everyone ready yeah isn't that one of your dreams hmm i have to think about that i listened to the official podcast they talked about her death scene was one of the very last scenes they filmed for this season and they talked about how wonderful she was and yeah they said she was hugging everybody while she still had the steak in her neck

[01:22:38] how was that experience the prosthetics were amazing it made me want to do a thing where i'm entirely in prosthetics it was so genius getting to work on that you really work with the most talented people on house of the dragon i could go through every department right now and tell you all about them but the people i had never really worked with much before were the prosthetics people and it was amazing i sat there while they created my neck which had this incredible spike and they painted

[01:23:08] it on me in a way that was so lifelike it was so fun it did it did it looked great i just i just loved it that the actor who played the part thought that the whole death experience was fun because people are so devastated by helena's death that i know you know and to just cheer everybody up to know that it was fun for the actor the actress was great i hope we see her on yeah she really was yeah i'm gonna miss her in the final season

[01:23:38] all right veronica you want to read the next one sure so house of the dragon season four release date is all but certain based on hbo's history this is from winterscoming.net by cody schultz ryan condal has made it clear that season four will be the last season for the show and has been written as the end of house of the dragon this is not something we see changing as condal has made it clear that season four is the end of the show and brings the end of the story

[01:24:08] they set out to tell this was something he reiterated again earlier this summer we're actively writing we actually are starting to turn drafts over to hbo this is early we will keep iterating i don't put the script down until they actually take it away from me in production we're as far ahead as we've ever been at this point in crafting a new season while we're still working on post-production on the old one that goes to show the machine is up and running and it's on its feet but it's also the fourth season

[01:24:37] the end the final act in a story boom we've been waiting to tell for many years we're all really excited about doing it condal shared as he mentioned work is underway on season four and the final chapter is currently making good progress which is great since hbo has already locked in the show's return year in an instagram post shared in november 2025 hbo promised fans a return to westeros every year through at least 2028

[01:25:07] by promoting the release of a night of the seven kingdoms season one and house of the dragon season three in 2026 and night of the seven kingdoms season two in 2027 and house of the dragon season four in 2028 this confirmed fans theories that we'd once again have a two-year gap between seasons of house of the dragon which was honestly a relief what i don't think it's a relief well at least it's not more

[01:25:36] than two years yeah yeah fair okay fair fair you heard it here first remember that when 2028 rolls around there is a 99 chance that house of the dragon season four will premiere on hbo and hbo max on june 18th 2028 this is not just some random guess but is based on the release pattern hbo has followed for house of the dragon last two seasons after debuting house of the dragon in late august back in 2022

[01:26:06] hbo shifted the show's release up earlier in the year so that the seasons have unfolded over the course of the summer and wrapped in early august both seasons two and three were released in june which makes it seem highly likely that house of the dragon season four will also premiere in june interestingly hbo hasn't just debuted the last two seasons of house of the dragon in the same month it's also chosen to kick the seasons off on the third sunday of the month in both instances

[01:26:36] given the pattern hbo has put into place it would stand to reason that season four will also release on the third sunday in june 2028 which happens to fall on june 18th which puts it directly between season two's june 16th release and season three's june 21st release i feel like i was reading a taylor swift like fan theory there because they go so deep into numerology yeah but okay so we'll put it on our calendar

[01:27:05] june 18th 2028 luckily we don't have to wait until 2028 to go back to westeros because we'll have the second season of nine of the seven kingdoms yeah i've also seen and like i don't know that i've seen it from a legit source yet but people are trying to say that the agon's conquest is confirmed and will come out as a movie

[01:27:33] but has anyone like officially said that no or okay i never believe these internet rumors until yes i like the idea of thinking about that happening yeah i don't think they're gonna i don't want a big conquest i i feel like they're whatever they're gonna do next is gonna be less expensive yeah like i think why they like the idea of snow yeah

[01:28:02] it's cheap just to just to cgi some wolves and yeah be in the forest in the snow have you all heard anything about um the mad king the play that's playing in stratford in england right now no yeah it um it finally premiered and it um it's four hours long and the first half covers the

[01:28:32] tourney at harrenhall and the second half covers robert's rebellion um and it confirms uh some long held fan theories but leaves some things mysterious is it produced by george rr martin it was it was um written in collaboration with him so it's it's a it's it's approved by him unlike house of the dragon

[01:29:02] which he thinks has you know too many toxic butterflies those were those butterflies that oh i know what i wanted to say i sort of felt like helena's death was just a slap in the face to george rr martin because you know we had talked before about how he was upset that they didn't include helena's

[01:29:32] third child right is it maylor maylor yeah that's right and you know she she was pregnant with another child so you've certainly felt like we were gonna see that child at some point but nope nope that's what i thought when she later when i thought about it i was like well the the reason that george rr martin was so upset about that is because it's actually maylor's death

[01:30:01] that drives helena to jump out the window yeah which i think that's still the like it was still the idea of maylor's life being forfeit to rhaenyra that drove her to do it and so i still think you got to the same theme and i think if if there is question among the small folk if rhaenyra possibly killed

[01:30:31] helena versus helena jumped right i think it makes it that much more horrendous that she would not only kill her sister but kill her pregnant sister right right and so i think that's an interest it's still a really interesting plot point that i think still like yeah the small folk will remember her you know on the wagon going through the town with her baby son so rhaenyra is responsible for

[01:31:01] one son being killed in front of her and for her dying with her other son in her womb like and that's still pretty horrific this is something i don't really agree with george r r martin about because one of the things ryan condal has talked about is that near impossibility of working with very young child actors um you know it's very hard to have a character who's one year old and i think that there

[01:31:30] are just limitations on tv you can't do things that you can just you know write a paragraph and there it is but when you actually talk about filming something with real actors portraying the roles i think it does it does make sense that you'd have to do something else and i didn't even think that they needed to make helena pregnant this season the storyline could have you know gone pretty much the way it did even without

[01:32:00] yeah you're you're right when you say it like that it didn't bring too much to it yeah it just makes her all the more tragic yes of course yeah yeah all right anything else have we done it to death i think we've done it we've done it all right first the gates then die yeah yeah we've opened the gates

[01:32:30] well we're doing things a little bit differently this week we're not gonna have book talk and we're not going to have feedback this episode but we are going to record a bonus episode where we will have all everybody's feedback and we'll talk about book talk i really hope i am caught up by then so i can be join in on book talk at least for the first part i will not be reading the complete book by then for sure yeah and

[01:32:59] um so if you are hearing this and you haven't gotten your feedback in yet please feel free you can um please feel free to send us all your feedback send us a raven yep yep and we'll have our final book talk then as well you can leave feedback at our podcastica facebook group where we post weekly feedback threads or you can leave feedback or

[01:33:28] voicemails by email at dragons at podcastica dot com you can find all of our contact information at podcastica dot com as well as all the other shows being covered by podcastica and i want to shout out uh one that i listened to very recently which was the silo podcast that you veronica did with amelie and jason uh that is um

[01:33:58] lord paramount of the podcasts jason um i i the mad podcasting veronica i'm in exactly the same situation as you with silo which is i've read the books but not for a long time so i don't remember all the details and i loved the way you talked about being in that situation on that podcast so you did the first half of the season in this podcast and it's really i highly recommend it to anybody who is

[01:34:27] watching silo and if you're not watching silo i highly recommend that you watch silo and listen to the the coverage and are they gonna have a season two oh we're already on season three oh and they it's similar to house of the dragon it's gonna be four seasons and they have a tight story that they're telling oh that's great pretty nice yeah and they've already filmed the fourth season i think wow um and are planning

[01:34:57] for it next year yeah it's also based on a on a series uh of books and has diverged from the books in interesting ways but they have the close participation of the writer hugh howey and he is on board with all of the changes because he says what you can't change in an adaptation is the themes yeah but everything else is up for grabs so i i agree so strongly with that and i

[01:35:26] think that's something that i feel like a lot of people in like the the tolkien fandom like reflect back on tolkien saying similar types of things like i think he would be really in favor of adaptations as long as you still stayed true to the themes that he had i i actually read an excerpt from hugh howey's blog talking about kind of that concept was pretty good yeah yeah so i recommend

[01:35:56] that podcast and then there's a new new one show that jason's covering right yes it's called lanterns the show i said when i watched um the house the dragon finale last night they played a preview for lanterns before the show came on and i didn't skip it i often skip the previews because i want to get to the you know finale but i i watched that

[01:36:25] preview and um it looks like the show might be pretty good it it's taking um the house of the dragon time slot on sundays on hbo and it's a it's a marvel universe show it is marvel okay yeah yeah isn't it i thought it was and then i thought it wasn't oh gonna have to look no i think you're looking right

[01:36:55] because of the name right um yeah um nope it's dc it's dc okay all right i thought it was marvel also that explains why i don't really know much about the whole green lantern thing because i know a lot more about marvel than about dc so um so this is what how uh jason describes it it's about the green lanterns which are basically superhero space

[01:37:25] cops but they're taking a different tack on the show the show is run by chris mundy who is the showrunner of ozark and it's a small town murder mystery vibe damon lindelof who did lost um the leftovers leftovers one of my favorite shows ever me too watchman um is also a co-creator and a writer on the show and it stars kyle chandler from friday night lights a show which i have never and will never see uh and

[01:37:54] aaron aaron aaron pierre and it has nathan fillion and garrett dillahunt nathan fillion from firefly and garrett dillahunt um from um what's the name of that show fear the walking dead that can't be what we credit to him though there's gotta be something better right yes there is gary dillahunt from he was on the sarah connor raising holes oh sarah connor

[01:38:24] yeah those are some power houses yeah yeah let's not attribute like i love ozark love the leftovers yeah yeah yeah so it could be really good um so the podcast is going to be called casting light a lanterns podcast it's a great name for it and it's going to be jason lord paramount of the pair of the podcast along with um kirk manley and jim pete and uh it'll be everywhere you get your podcast

[01:38:53] yeah and they've already published an introduction episode so you can see that listen to that now yes well i haven't listened to it yet because i was listening to the silo podcast but um it's next up the intro podcast is next up for me it was so funny premiering next week next week yeah not wasting any time actually finishing silo and he had you know the episode like to say what's up next and it said like um

[01:39:23] an introduction to lanterns and i thought that was the next episode of silo and was like oh i guess they're gonna be like going somewhere dark and learning about lanterns like no that's our other show that could that could totally be an episode title right it felt really appropriate but yeah it was especially since what we found out recently about the status of light bulbs in the silo right it just fit really well yeah

[01:39:53] i'm gonna see if my husband will give that a try because that sounds right up his alley nice so we'll see all right that is our show thanks for listening everybody until next time i'm rennie i'm still veronica and i'm wendy the script says i get to say dracarys do i really get to say dracarys dracarys

[01:40:38] from the history of hershey to the business behind the hit podcast acquired cold call the chart topping management podcast from harvard business school gives you a seat in the classroom where these legendary cases are brought to life i'm brian kenney the chief marketing and communications officer at harvard business school and the host of cold call which explores the real world case studies taught in our classrooms featuring the professors who wrote them and often the executives entrepreneurs and innovators who lived them in each episode we break down the decisions trade offs and leadership lessons behind some

[01:41:07] of the most fascinating organizations not to mention we just dropped a new video series examining ai case studies like the atlantic's partnership with open ai mass general brigham's use of ai to streamline clinical documentation and harvard art museum's experimentation with generative ai so don't miss out follow or watch cold call on apple podcasts spotify youtube or wherever you get your podcasts