"After" (The Walking Dead S4E9 Rewatch)

[00:00:00] Hmm? Ah! Hmm. Podcastica!

[00:00:51] Just do it.

[00:01:45] Hey Zedheads, welcome to the podcast. I'm Jason. And I'm Karl Poppa. And this is the cast of us episode 627. And this episode we're covering The Walking Dead season 4 episode 9 after. Yeah! Man we just flow! Cause we flow! You had to miss the last one that was a bummer. Oh! I've just had like the shittest week.

[00:02:11] My schedule is so inflexible right now because of all the podcasts so we had to do it without you. But I was kind of bummed because that's such a big episode. But is there anything you want to say about it? I just thought Veronica smashed it and I really enjoyed listening to the both of you. But yeah, I don't really get migraines that much. But last week the weather here went from freezing to quite wet and hot. And for some reason that just like broke my brain. So I was like... Yeah.

[00:02:40] I was lying down with my eyes closed like I don't think I can look at a screen. And then that turned into a stinking cold. So this is me like just back in the land of the living today. So... Feel better? Yeah. Bummer. It was nice to have a podcast to listen to. So that was good. But yeah. And then Jim was sick too. So I don't know what happened with Jim. Yeah. I hope he didn't get bit. He's okay now. Okay. I was actually feeling a little sick too, but I think we're all better now. We're all fine. And Jim picked another episode to come back on. So it should be good. Amazing.

[00:03:08] So I'll read the plot summary. It says, Carl helps his injured father Rick as they flee the prison and fearful they have lost Lori's child. Judith. Judy. Judith. Why would it say that? Is this a wiki one or an AI one? It is a wiki one. It sounds like an AI one though, right? Yeah. It really does. This is not good. Yeah. Throws some beats and starts wrapping up a storm. No, I'm just kidding. Yeah, he does. They take shelter in a suburban home and Rick collapses from exhaustion.

[00:03:37] Carl scavenges nearby homes for supplies. Michonne finding the prison overrun and no sign of the survivors sets off on her own, but comes to an epiphany about her purpose and follows Carl and Rick's trail rejoining them at the home where they are sheltering. Yay. It's all happy. So what did you think watching this one again? I would say that having rewatched this episode, it's definitely in my top 10 all time walking dead episodes, if not my top five.

[00:04:07] Oh wow. I didn't know that. Yeah. And I'd forgotten about it, which isn't great. Like I'm like, oh yeah, this episode's amazing. It's pretty iconic. It's a really interesting one because it's so it's, it's kind of spare and almost kind of chill in some ways, but it made an impact. And I think it pays off in the larger lore of the walking dead when you know where Rick and Michonne storylines are going and that relationship is going to play. Absolutely. Yeah. I miss Mike. Where's Rick? Yeah, no, Mike. I'm sorry.

[00:04:38] Oh, I know where I have to go now. Hi, Rick. Like, um, but no, I think it's, I think it's one of the strongest. Um, I meant, I know Greg Nicotero directed who wrote it. A guy called the Robert Kirkman. No way. Mm hmm. Interesting. He's pretty cool. Yeah. You know, what's interesting about him? And I just had this sort of daydream fantasy of trying to figure out a way to ask him about this if I ever got the chance to interview him again, but probably would just come off insulting

[00:05:06] is you seem like the kind of guy who just like you just joke and he's just sort of, uh, he's super funny to listen to if you've ever heard him, but he's really sarcastic and stuff. And then it's really surprising in his writing and there's such a sensitivity and an understanding of the human condition. And how do you reconcile those two? Cause yeah. Well, I just noticed that he, so I'm like looking at, um, his IMDB because I realized I've never actually looked at

[00:05:32] like the specific episodes that he's written, um, in this particular way. And he's got bylines all over the place. Like he, apparently he wrote the screen story for Renfield that, um, Nicolas Cage thing. I was like, Oh, okay. Didn't know that. Obviously a lot of it. He just has his name on it because it's a walking dead, um, adjacent thing, but yeah, it's, it's interesting.

[00:05:58] And I find it fascinating because I think, I think I remember Kirkman talking round about when Rick and Michonne got together on the show and it might've been in the back matter of an issue of the walking dead. I can't remember if he, I can't remember the exact wording and I don't want to put, I don't want to misrepresent this, but it was something to the effect of he wished he'd thought of having Rick and Michonne get together,

[00:06:25] or it was something that he wished he'd explored or it was interesting to him that that hadn't been a possibility. Yeah. So I wonder if this is him, I don't know, starting on that path of wish fulfillment and timelines. Yeah. That's an, that would be an interesting question to ask him too, because I think he did do things like that. He's like trying out different things in the show than in the comic, just for his own creative fulfillment.

[00:06:49] Cause one of the things I've been kind of tracking is, you know, have they, have they planned Rick and Michonne? Cause I always thought Rick and Michonne wasn't necessarily planned from the start, but I'm trying to watch it with the eye of maybe it was. And this episode I'm like, yeah. I mean, my suspicion is they just, the writers saw their chemistry on screen and responded to it. Yeah. And I feel like at this point they're fully aware. I don't know.

[00:07:17] I could be wrong, but it sure seems like it, you know? Yeah, it really was. It feels like the only person who's... They're pushing it in that direction consciously now, I think. Definitely. Definitely. Um, yeah. So no, I honestly like one of my favorite episodes in retrospect, um, I'd kind of forgotten about. I, I liked it a lot too. I, I remembered feeling for Carl a lot and the pudding is the thing. It's the most iconic for some reason. So iconic. 12 ounces, 112 ounces of pudding. Yeah.

[00:07:47] I checked it out. You can actually buy those. I found this like restaurant supply store online where you can get one for seven bucks. It makes me laugh because like pudding is not a thing over here in the same way. Like we have some, we have some like wet sweet desserts you can have, but pudding is like a very North American thing. So like I, yeah, I always laughed when I would see it in the supermarket and Canada and be like, Oh yeah. Yeah. Pudding over there is like a bready cakey thing or something.

[00:08:18] Or just what we call dessert. Like what's for pudding? What's for pudding? Um, so yeah, I was confused about that when I was watching Bake Off at first. Yeah. Uh, but, uh, I, I feel like it should be said that this episode feels more like the start of a new season than season four, episode one did. And it's a real turning point for the series. You know, the prisons are act. We see the governor's dead body that's over.

[00:08:45] And from here on out they're scattered on the road for a while. And then in Alexandria and we weren't used to seeing them being on the road for very long. They had the quarry camp in season one, the farm in two, the prison in three and four up till now. And I remember a lot of listeners seemed to not like them being on the road and scattered and they were anxious for them to get back together and find a new place. And I think being a comic reader, I was like, well, I didn't say this, but when they find the place, they're going to be there for the rest of the series.

[00:09:15] So maybe we should enjoy this, you know, this little like different kind of a thing, but also just me personally, I like when they do episodes, just focusing on a few people sometimes, not always, but you know, sometimes it's, it's fun to just get to go a little deeper with the smaller subset of characters. I think the walking dead like is a strong show for it. Like I think they, I can think of a lot of good episodes of the walking dead where it really

[00:09:41] is not technically a bottle episode because Peter gave me a very long and involved explanation of what a bottle episode is and I've forgotten it, but I know they're not all bottle episodes. Um, and I think, yeah, there are some really standard episodes where they do winnow the cast down to like just a couple of members. There are some duds. There are some that I'm like, well, I don't really care about that one, but some of the strongest ones like this one, I think are clear. Yeah. Clear. Yeah. And absolutely. Governor one. Even not the governor ones for you.

[00:10:11] Uh, I even liked the one with, I always say this, but, uh, Carol and the rat. We love that. We got such hate for that. People were like, really guys, really? I'm like, it's a pandemic. We're all doing what we can to survive. We like the rat. Independent movie. All right. Want to get to the points? Yeah. Well, of course. I mean, I thought I would start by talking about, um, Karl Poppa. So Sir Karl Raymond Popper was an Austrian British philosopher, academic and social commentator.

[00:10:38] He was one of the 20th century's most influential philosophers of science. And he's known for his rejection of the classic inductivist views on the scientific method in favour of, I'm bored already. Yeah. So Karl Popper, philosopher, but not as cool as this rapper. Um, long story short, if you haven't watched the bad lip breeding video, you're missing out. Go and watch it. I watched it today to prep for the podcast. There's two versions. It's heavily, heavily drawn from this, right? Yeah.

[00:11:05] I mean, there's the bad lip breeding video that has a version of this song that Karl sings. That's mostly from this episode, but from other episodes too. And then he did an extended version of just this song. So if you look for Karl Poppa, you'll find Jiggy Jar Jar do. You do do do do do do do do do do do. And it's, it will make you laugh for sure. It is the best. I'll try to remember to put links in the show notes to those.

[00:11:31] It truly like, yeah, it just makes me smile this episode knowing that there is this. Yeah. Um, there were only a couple of scenes where I'm like, it has actually impeded my ability to enjoy the scene. And that's when he's like yelling at Rick when Rick's like, he thinks Rick might be, I know, he doesn't think Rick's dead. Rick's like home at toes and he's frustrated. But I was like, all the other scenes are like emotionally hitting this one. I just keep thinking about that video. So it's fine. It's still hit for me, but I thought about it a little bit too.

[00:12:00] I couldn't remember exactly what he said, which is probably good because then it would have really messed it up. It was the gingerbread boy. Cause he's a pretend bread boy. All right. Now it's ruined. Oh, it's so done. Um, I, it's hard not to just have a point that is like, I'm not going to be a guy. It's just Carl because this is Carl's episode, right? This is like his, I don't know. It's him coming into being a man.

[00:12:26] And it's one of the things that they mentioned it in the IMDB trivia. They must've taken it from an interview with Andrew Lincoln. Cause he says, this story is very much about a boy growing up and working with Chandler Riggs was like watching an actor becoming a leading man. And I thought the push and pull between Rick and Carl at the start of the episode and the anger that Carl is feeling at his dad for being so weak and not being able to protect them. It just felt really real.

[00:12:55] I just think Chandler Riggs gives an amazing performance in this episode. Again, I think you and Veronica touched on this really well last week, talking about the sadness we all feel about Carl getting killed off when he does in season eight. Yeah. Yeah. In season eight. And this episode, I really felt like I felt that loss more. I thought, you know, this is what we kind of could have had. Um, this episode probably has more screen time for Carl than any other episode in the series. Yeah.

[00:13:25] And I think there's something I always really like about seeing a, an older actor taking a younger actor under their wing and pulling these really good performances out of them. And I think you can tell Andrew Lincoln and Chandler Riggs had that kind of relationship. Um, and I can just imagine that that was a really supportive set to be on. And I guess my first point really is about Rick's failure slash attempts to try and maintain this parent child relationship when he's physically and emotionally completely drained.

[00:13:55] Like he's at death's door. He's dragging himself along. He looks an absolute wreck. And Carl just doesn't give an inch. He just doesn't let him. He's like, no, I'm helping you clear this building. I'm doing this. You keep watch, not me because I know what I'm doing. You're basically like not fit for doing this kind of work. Um, Rick getting angry when Carl shoots the gun, when he tells him not to Carl saying things like I win when he gets a bigger haul of food than Rick.

[00:14:25] Um, one of the bits I really, that made me laugh. Um, but also kind of sad is when Carl is yelling in the house that they end up in. Hey assholes. Hey shit face. And Carl, um, Rick and Lori always seem to be quite like, watch your mouth with Carl. Like they really don't enjoy him, um, swearing. And I thought that was quite funny when Carl's just like, are you kidding me? Like, are you kidding me right now?

[00:14:49] Um, cause like Rick's the guy who in the train car, when they're being threatened by cannibals will say they're screwed with the wrong people. That's how polite he is. With a like pointed look at Carl, like see Carl. I didn't swear. This is how you do it. Don't be vulgar. Um, and then this absolutely savage interaction they have about Shane is just so horrible, but amazing. Remember him. Yeah. Cause like Carl's like doing all the shit.

[00:15:19] He's like securing the house. He's like got the power cable for the Xbox and that. And Rick's like, did you do the back door? And Carl's like, Shane taught me how to do this awesome knot. And, uh, yeah, that's the tension there. Like where Rick's like, I remember him every day. Now help me move the couch. Like it's. Oh, savage. I love it. And then when he won't eat the food and he's like, eat it. Yeah. I've been there. Yeah. I've been on both sides of that. Just last night. Yeah. I'm not doing that. I'm not doing that.

[00:15:49] I'm not doing it cause you're telling me to do it. And then the next morning. It kind of surprised me a little bit that Rick wasn't a little bit more like, what's going on with you, Carl? He's like, Carl, what the fuck, man? He's basically his attitude, you know, like get off my case, you little bitch. I think it's safe to say that Rick's had like a day. Yeah. He's like, I'm not in the mid for this right now. What the fuck is up with you, man? Jesus Christ. Oh my God. I love it. But then of course it, it kind of turns around. It's so interesting.

[00:16:19] This device, which is straight from the comics of having Rick be unresponsive for like 60% of the episodes. So Carl goes through this journey of like being rebellious, pushing back against him, cussing, doing all this stuff that like his dad doesn't like him doing. And then with his dad absent, you know, there's this really visceral monologue where he's like, I killed three walkers. I don't need you anymore. You couldn't protect all these people. And then he saves his mom for last.

[00:16:48] You just wanted to plant vegetables. You hid behind those fences and let him find you. And now you're nothing. I'd be fine if you died. We know that's not true. But in that moment, it feels like it is true for Carl that he feels, he feels that anger. Obviously deep down, he doesn't actually want his dad to die. And we see the other shoe fall when he thinks Rick has died and he's in absolute bits. And I thought that was outstanding acting from Chandler Riggs in that scene. I thought he was just so good when he says, I can't, I was wrong.

[00:17:18] Just do it. And when he puts his forehead to Rick's and says, I'm scared. I was like, oh, give this little kid like a little Emmy. Like he's really good. He gets so shit, gets a lot of shit primarily from us for not always being the best actor. But that scene was wonderful. And the way that they kind of reconciled when he confesses about the pudding and Rick kind of recognizes that what Carl has done is good.

[00:17:44] Telling Carl that he's a man, you know, and that he's sorry and he understands that things aren't going to be able to go back to the way they used to be. Um, and Carl telling him that he doesn't need to be sorry. It just feels like a nice rounded arc for an episode of Carl going out and exploring the world, pushing those boundaries and finding where they are and where they give and where they don't. Yeah. It's a little zombie coming of age story. Does this one hit harder now that your kids are older? Yeah. Yeah.

[00:18:11] My son, Nico is, uh, just a little bit younger. I mean, like by months, he's almost the same age as Carl. Yeah. I think Carl's while Chandler Riggs was 14 when he filmed this and Nico will be 14 in six months. Wow. And they look similar to. Yeah. And, um, yeah, just dark hair and, um, similar bone structure. So yeah, it really, I thought about Nico as I was watching this.

[00:18:37] And also, uh, I think when you're a teenager, no matter what the situation doesn't need to be the zombie apocalypse. I think most teenagers will start to differentiate themselves from their parents. And, uh, I'm feeling that a little bit from Nico lately, not, not a whole lot, but I wonder how much of that is coming. You know, is he on your roof at the moment with some pudding? With some pudding. That's no, that would be sweet. Yeah. He's just giving me some back talk every once in a while.

[00:19:07] Oh, not your mind. But, uh, actually, no, it's good. Like I, I want him to stand up for himself, you know? Mm-hmm. Yeah. Absolutely. That's what I worry about. Like, then that's the whole point. They need to feel like they can have some agency and they, they're on this journey where they're going to have, they know they're going to have to fend for themselves. Mm-hmm. So they have to start building up those muscles.

[00:19:57] Yeah, you do. And they're going to play video games. That's not what, that's not what's useful. I mean, my kids, cause I thought that was sort of a moment where he's like, no, I'm, I'm growing up. I need to do the responsible thing and use this cord to help with the door. Yeah. But my kids would have been like, is there a generator or something? Can we go on a quest for gas? Love it. Dude.

[00:20:29] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's me. Okay. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. I'm going to go on.

[00:20:43] I'm going to go on. No, I'm just kidding. No, I'm just kidding. Excellent. Excellent. Yeah. So it's tough to be a teenager in the ZA. Okay.

[00:21:09] And, um, I think a first reaction to this might be, God, Carl's being a little shit, you know, and especially say, well, I, I, I've seen some people reacting that way. Um, especially when he said, you know, remember Shane, that, that was pretty harsh, right? And then he said, uh, you know, I don't, I, I still know how to survive. I don't need you anymore. I don't need you to protect me.

[00:21:37] Um, you probably can't even protect me anyway. You couldn't protect Judith. You can protect Herschel or Glenn or Maggie Michonne, Daryl, or mom. You just wanted to plant vegetables. You just wanted to hide all this stuff. They're all gone now because of you. They counted on you. You were their leader, but now you're nothing. Chicky jar jar dude. No, I'm just kidding. Yeah. Jar jar dude. Duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh. But, uh, so that's all really harsh.

[00:22:02] And I don't think Rick actually heard any of that, but, um, it was probably cathartic for Carl to say it, but just, I already was sort of getting into it, but just sort of examining what's going on here. I mean, I think when we're little kids, most of us, our parents are everything to us. Yeah. They're, they're every safety. They provide everything. They're our source of love and care. And we literally think they know everything.

[00:22:30] Bodhi still asks me questions and I'm like, I don't, I don't know. I don't, I, there's no way I can know that. Like, and, uh, at some point, all of us in our development, we, as we grow up and get smarter and more sophisticated, we realize our parents aren't perfect and it can be disillusioning. And we realize the ways in which they've actually failed us or yeah, that they're just not perfect. And we might at some point start feeling things like, why do I have to listen to what you say?

[00:22:59] You kind of fuck up in a lot of ways. And up to this point, Carl has looked up to his dad and tried to be like him. And now, as far as Carl knows, they lost everything. They lost his mom, Shane. He thinks Judith, all his friends. I mean, the whole world they lost, right? Everybody in the world, as far as he knows, they're the only two left alive.

[00:23:26] And, and I could see that how that might be particularly disillusioning that he might think his dad fucked up more than any dad ever has. You know, I mean, it's not logical. It's an emotional thing, but like, he should realize that, Hey, we, we had something unusual happen. The zombie apocalypse where 99.5% of the world died and me and my dad are two of the few still left alive.

[00:23:52] And so that's pretty special that we're able to still be here when everyone else is gone. But where Carl's at right now, he just feels all this loss and he feels let down. And I can totally sympathize with that. And that's paired with where he is in his development as a teenager, where it's when you start looking to establish your own identity, agency, independence. You want to be a person in your own right and prove to yourself that you can handle things.

[00:24:21] You know, as I said before, you're kind of learning to fend for yourself and you know, you're going to need to do that. So I think a lot of times that just means when you're trying to find your own identity and you've been wrapped up with your parents, you just part of the way you do that is you push away from your parents, you know? And I've been trying to get ready for when my kids really start to do that and not react to it too much and just realize that it's part of their development.

[00:24:50] And so anyway, with Carl to be going through this teenage years right in the middle of all this, it's going to be so hard. Oh God, can you imagine? I would never, ever go back to being a teenager. Like if I could go back to any era of my life, I would never go back to my teenage years. Oh my God, awful, awful.

[00:25:08] And I think it's so common too that once a person establishes themselves and they get into their 20s and they realize, oh, I am able to make it out here on my own. I know myself better. I'm an independent person. I have an identity. Then they start to be more grateful to their parents and be able to talk to them again.

[00:25:29] And they don't have that reflexive pushing away. Then when I think this is fairly common too, if you decide to have kids, then you really appreciate your parents even more because you realize what little shits they can be and how hard it is and all the sacrifice and all that. Oh, really? Why do you think I don't want them? Yeah. I don't want to have to go to my mom and apologize. I'm like, no, I gave my parents such shit. Like, oh no.

[00:25:56] And it's funny because I guess the thing I'd forgotten about this episode, I think because of the mid-season break and again, because we know how it ends, is you're right. At this point, they think Judith's dead. They think the thing that they lived for in the sense of like, you know, Laurie died to give birth to Judith and it was this whole big thing. Like they think Judith's gone as well. And that's a horrible grief for Carl. Like in the comics, it's a horrible grief because it's, it's real, but here it's, you know. He thinks it's real. He thinks it's real.

[00:26:26] And he, he, and we probably did too at this point. And he's like, uh, you, you were the leader and you were supposed to protect me and look where we are. You know, and he did protect him, but not everybody else, not everybody else. I remember being weirdly disappointed that Judith was alive. Now don't, don't hate on me. It's not because I think that kids should die.

[00:26:47] Um, the reason that I was, I felt the show had an opportunity to be true to the comics because in the comics, Judith is, um, Laurie is shot while holding Judith and they're both killed. So we know that that happens. And I always wondered watching the show, like, how are they going to deal with the fact that there is an infant death? Like, cause that's a really hard thing to portray on screen. And I remember when we saw the empty carrier, I sort of thought, well, that's kind of a tasteful way to deal with it because we don't have to see it.

[00:27:17] It's done. The story continues in the same way. So when it turned out Judith was alive, I'm so glad now that she was because of what that character grew to be and what that did to the group. And in retrospect, it would have been horribly bleak for the show to do that at that point. But I think they could have done it. Like, do you know what I mean? Like, I guess what I'm trying to say is I think they, they actually had an opportunity to have done that and remain true to the comics in a way that was good.

[00:27:42] But the emotional payoff of having her survive and having her be with Tyrese and Carol was worth it. And the character we got was outstanding. Although if she hadn't survived, maybe they would have made a deal with Chandler Riggs and kept him around because she kind of took over his place in the story. Well, you know what they say? Kaylee Fleming's a real, she's a real cutthroat girl. Write in everybody and tell us who would you kill, Carl or Judith Monsky? An innocent baby or Carl.

[00:28:12] We won't judge you. We'll just name and shame you. Yeah, I, at this point, I would just rather keep them both. I hear what you're saying about Judith and maybe early on when I was watching this series, I might have been more inclined to say, yeah, maybe they should have done that. But I just don't want bleakness right now. No, at the time, I remember just thinking, oh, that would be a very brave move to do that. It looks like they might have a way to do it.

[00:28:40] But I also don't think I would have wanted it, really. It was just one of those things at the time where I was like, oh, okay. Yeah. No, I think probably when we were starting this series, I might have felt the same way. I don't remember when we found out she was alive a little bit. Very glad that she's not. I'm very glad that nothing horrible happened. And the emotional impact of them reuniting is so worth it. Yeah.

[00:29:03] So Carl, I was saying most of us don't start to be grateful again to our parents after that teenage period until we get into our 20s. But he has this whole thing where he thinks his dad's going to die and he's going to have to shoot him. And he can't bring himself to do it. And I'm not sure if that's because he just doesn't want to live anymore without his dad or he just doesn't want to shoot his zombie dad or a little bit of both. But, man, Rick really handled that wrong.

[00:29:32] When someone thinks you're a zombie, don't reach your arm out and go. So Carl, me and Jenny talk about our kids sometimes how it feels like they go through developmental spurts where suddenly they're just more capable. And it's like a video game character leveling up when you get some kind of experience points or whatever.

[00:30:01] And often that happens when we go on trips for some reason. They're just more stimulated and they just suddenly seem a little more sophisticated or whatever. And Carl, I think, levels up here. And his story always is about growing up ever since the beginning of the series. And that's why I just think, man, Walking Dead is so fucked up by not having him grow into a full grown adult so we could see that whole process. And I checked it out.

[00:30:28] If he'd lived to season 11, the end of the series, Chandler Riggs was 23 years old. He's 25 now. So we would have seen him really as a man, you know. We saw him at Hilltop briefly, but not as far off in the corner. But here, I mean, he gets a chance to prove himself to his dad and to himself by doing all these things, killing these zombies and getting food and securing the place and all this kind of thing.

[00:30:58] When he was drawing those zombies away from the house, walking backwards, I'm like, you're going to trip, man. But that was pretty terrifying. But it's all, I feel like, a rite of passage. You know, this is, like I said, a coming of age story. And he kind of proves himself. But then, and when he's eating the pudding, I felt like that was a cool moment because it's like a little moment of childhood in the middle of all this, trying to be more of a man.

[00:31:27] So he's in that middle stage, you know, it's so nice. And they played the music that they played when Rick and Carl were sitting in the window of the barn loft or whatever. And that's a scene where Rick was telling him, you know, people have died and more people are going to die. And I wish I could tell you something else. But here's this gun, basically. So it's like just more of Carl having to grow up more and more in this world.

[00:31:57] But it's triumphant that moment, isn't it? I loved Walker inside, got my shoe, didn't get me. Yeah, yeah. It's their jubilation there that he survives. I'm like, oh. Yeah, he's proving, yeah, it's like he's proving that he can handle himself. Although, man, he came pretty close there. So I liked it that by the time Rick finally woke up and apologized to him and, what did he say?

[00:32:25] He said, I know we'll never get things back to the way they used to be. I only clung to that for you and for Judith. I think he's talking about that stint as a farmer. He was trying to pretend that violence wasn't in this world. But I think, or trying to ignore the violence of the world. But I think that's a metaphor for any parent trying to shield their kids from the challenges of the world. And at some point you have to go, oh, I can't do that anymore. You got to fend for yourself.

[00:32:54] And that's what Rick is doing here to a degree anyway. You're a man, Carl. I'm sorry. And Carl said, you don't need to be. And that was really sweet. But I think he's feeling, A, Carl's feeling more secure in himself now that he's had a chance to prove himself a little bit. But also realizing that he still needs his dad. He doesn't want to have to go on without his dad. So, yeah. It's a good ending for them. It's just so well written. So well done. All right. What about Michonne?

[00:33:26] I love her. End of point. No, I want to talk about Michonne's dream sequence. I remember when we were watching The Ones Who Live. There's an episode of The Ones Who Live that was written by Danai Gurira. If you told me she wrote this scene as well, I would believe you. It feels like a very Danai Gurira scene. Yeah, it does. I wonder if she helped somehow. Yeah.

[00:33:53] I remember even the first time I watched this, I was like, oh, The Walking Dead's kind of going there. Like, we've never really done this before. This is sort of surreal, abstract dream sequence. And it's just such a beautiful, it could be like a two minute short film. Like, you learn so much in those moments. So we see Michonne. In a way that was really creepy. And so that made it more engaging because you think it's a flashback, right? And so tonally different. And then the way that things start to fall into place.

[00:34:22] So Michonne's standing in a kitchen in a city apartment. We see the city outside bustling. She's in there with Mike and his friend, whose name I forget, who we know were her pets. Terry. That's right. Mike and Terry. She's standing. She looks amazing. She's wearing like kind of dressy, middle class gear. Love it. Love that look for her. They all look sexy. They all look great. They all look like, I'm just like, wow, I want to live in this like sexy apartment with all these people.

[00:34:50] And they're talking about some art exhibition they've been to see. And Michonne's talking really loftily about the art being pedestrian. She has this amazing line where she's like, I've never seen a gorilla drive a car before, but put it in a museum and I'm not going to call it art, which I think is something we should think about more in relation to art. She used to work at an art gallery. And I think she said at one point there was just a tin can with some shit. And that was like the exhibit. Yeah.

[00:35:21] Oh my God. And Terry's winding Mike up saying like, you know, oh, keep your lover in check, Mike. And Michonne's kind of cutting up like fruit and cheese and things. And this is when it starts to twist because we see her wipe the knife, but it becomes her katana. And you're like, oh, okay. Things are getting surreal. My thought was, oh, she had that already. Okay. Yeah. You know. How do you cut cheese, Jason? I mean, I just, I didn't have time to think about it. Right. Of course. So I wasn't, I don't think I was thinking this is a dream.

[00:35:51] I was like, oh, she, she already had her katana and she's playing with it for some reason. What? Before I had it, like, that would be weird. But then when she puts it into the knife thing that goes all the way in, then it's like, okay. Stuff's weird. Something's weird here. Yeah. And then we have her kid come in. We know he's called Andre, but we don't know what at this point. She calls him like her little peanut or something. She picks him up. Did she call RJ that too? I think so. I think she was. Cute ass little kid. Cute ass little kid. Only appearance as far as I know.

[00:36:19] And then when she turns to Mike and Terry, their demeanor changes. I'm reading the context clues. We're hearing something that actually happened when they were in a camp together and out on the road after the apocalypse. Well, now they're in their grimy, dirty, ratty, walkie, dead clothes too. Yeah. And Mike saying, I'm not taking my son out there. Terry saying, I see what this is. Michonne's character in the dream, as is so often the case in a dream, like you're not reacting

[00:36:48] the way you should be reacting to what's happening around you. I just think this scene really captures the dissonance of what happens when you're dreaming in it. Michonne thinks they're goofing off. She's like, who's going to open the wine? But it's really about what happened in the camp because when she looks back, their arms are gone and they're both catatonic, like staring into space. We look out the window and we see the city outside is ruined. Her child is gone. Michonne starts to scream.

[00:37:16] And then she wakes up in the car with her two new pets. Um, and it's such a fascinating study of her trauma about what she lost prior to meeting Rick and the group, probably how she's opened up emotionally to that kind of love and affection again. And at this episode, I think for her is all about a battle of wills within herself about whether or not to chase after that again, or whether to go back and become one of the walking dead herself.

[00:37:46] I just, I loved it. It was such an interesting flavor to put in the episode. Um, and it really, I feel like they've really start to explore Michonne more. And this was a really key scene in doing that. And I would love to see the show take a few more risks like this, a few more kind of artistic things like that. I mean, the whole, well, it felt like a flashback that became this creepy dream, but it made me,

[00:38:11] I just always felt like, yeah, lost ended the same year that walking dead started. And that's too, in a way too bad because maybe walking dead would have done more of this flashback stuff because I think in this series pre and post-apocalyptic flashbacks would have made even more sense or made, it made a lot of sense, you know, to see how would you see how people were before and how close or far away from that they were after.

[00:38:36] And, and here just seeing them all dressed up nicely and, and having, um, their, um, cheese plates and whatever. And then Michonne wakes up in the car with the zombies next to her. I thought, wow, it really hit home more than it has in a long time. Just the post-apocalyptic nature of the series where they used to have so much and they've lost it all. And then I started thinking, man, how would I feel if I was in that?

[00:39:06] You know, I guess this is probably how we felt a lot when we first started watching the show, but you kind of lose touch with it after a while. Yeah. And it's the stripping down of the fripperies of life. Like you see it with Carl as well, with like the video games becoming irrelevant and being uninterested in books. Michonne's talking about art. She's like critiquing art. Like that's not something you get to do in the zombie apocalypse, unless you're Jadeth, where you might because you're doing art installations. I don't know. Well, those things start to come back over time. Yeah.

[00:39:34] That's kind of what this is about with her. Like deciding to move more towards that again, you know? Yeah. And suddenly just be plunged into a discussion about something that seems so trivial when we all know, well, I hope we know that art is crucial for the survival of a civilization. See me trying to justify my existence as a humanities graduate. I'm like, I'm actually really essential. No, it's devalued in a way.

[00:39:57] And when I grew up, it always felt important to me, stories and art. And then when you get older and you get a sense that some people just don't care about any of it and think of it as frivolous. And then I start to question, is it kind of frivolous? Because it's not essential to our survival. But it's just important for us to understand each other through art, I think.

[00:40:26] And that does help us be a better society. I know that sounds lofty, but I really believe that, you know? It's true. And yeah, just to be treated to this slice of that kind of conversation. And then, you know, we're back in the land of stale cereal and no milk. Yeah, I'm glad to have it. Yeah, so I loved that sequence. That was one of my points. I thought it was brilliant. I really enjoyed it.

[00:40:56] If Carl hadn't died, he'd be in the Commonwealth or Alexandria as an older man. And he'd be like, when I was a kid, I had to eat dog food. You know? Stale cereal with no milk. Everyone's like, actually, Carl, you weren't allowed to eat the dog food. Yeah, that's right. And we had to stop you. You wanted to. Oh, that's hilarious. So, I had a point about Michelle, of course.

[00:41:26] Yay. First thing we see is her at the prison. And it's the aftermath of all the destruction perpetrated by this guy who she hasn't trusted since the day we first met her. And her story was sort of intertwined with his from the beginning. So, I feel like that's another way this episode is a turning point because it's where Michonne kind of starts to outlast the story she was introduced with, you know? Yeah.

[00:41:52] And they make a point of featuring this whole dream that, yeah, we're leaning heavily into Michonne as a character on this show. She's not part of the governor's story anymore. She's Michonne. We see the governor at the very start. Is that really David Morrissey, do you think? Or is that like a fake? I didn't think so. It did, but it looked like a really good bust or something to me.

[00:42:22] Yeah. I was like, did they get Morrissey back just to lie on the ground? I don't think so. Like, this is insane. Yeah, it was cool. So, she gets some new pets because that's what she knows. Two white dudes this time. Probably a good move. On the writer's part. And puts Herschel's head out of its misery. And by the way, how does Herschel's head growl and whisper without lungs? But whatever. Old white dude magic.

[00:42:50] So, then we have this whole dream sequence. And I noticed that her boyfriend's friend Terry called her Michonne. Michonne, yeah. Charlie Adler pronounced it that way. Yeah. When we spoke to him about the comic points. Yeah. I remember this because it was at Walker Stalker. Someone asked him who his favorite character was. And he was like, oh, I want to see Michonne. But I think that's wrong. I think it's Michonne.

[00:43:18] And I was like, oh, interesting. Oh. Oh. Well, I guess, I mean, the way that Michonne says it is Michonne, I think. Yeah. She's Michonne, right? Yeah. Um, so we kind of learn a little bit through this dream sequence about where she got her pets. It's her boyfriend and, and, uh, his friend.

[00:43:48] Yeah. So I guess the camp wasn't good, but the boyfriend was afraid of risking the kid's life. The wiki says, and this isn't Wikipedia. It's the fan wiki. It says while his mother Michonne was away on a supply run, Andre, that's the kid's name stayed at the camp with his father. The camp was overrun by walkers and his dad and Terry were too high on drugs to protect him, resulting in Andre being devoured by walkers. Did we get that in another?

[00:44:18] I, I thought that was what the, oh no, cause it can't be in the comics. Um, yeah, that's what I've always believed to be the story, but that's not really what comes across in this episode. So maybe she talked about it more later, but I can't figure out where, and there was no link to it in the wiki or anything. No, it's weird one. Yeah. Yeah. But, and then when she, in a previous episode, when someone asked her about her pet, she said they got what they deserved. So I feel like she feels like they let her son die, you know? Yeah.

[00:44:48] Whether it was the whole drugs thing or whatever. Whatever. So anyway, um, then yeah, we see her ambling around with her pets and she's like a proto whisperer. I feel like among the zombies and sees the one with dreads and it reminds her of herself. And then she flips out and kills them all. Uh, Grace E. Lou was in that scene as a zombie, by the way. Yeah. And she got killed by Michonne. Oh my goodness. That's amazing.

[00:45:17] There were some cool looking walkers in this episode. Yeah. So yeah, I think the point is that after her son died, she kind of closed up her heart and spent most of her time alone. And that's when we meet her, you know, she helped Andrea, but she was very just closed off to the world and seemed angry all the time. And I think it's because of that. Right. And then being with Rick's group opened her back up again, emotionally, like the scene where Beth hands her baby Judith and she gets emotional.

[00:45:45] And now I think she realizes, like you said, she doesn't want to be, go back to being the walking dead anymore. She killed her pets too. She's like, I don't want that life. And then she goes immediately to try to track. Uh, I, I don't know if it's specifically Rick, but she's looking for footprints. And, um, then she says, you know, she goes to that restaurant that Carl and Rick had been in and she says, Mike, I miss you. I miss you. Even when I was with you back at the camp, you were wrong. Cause I'm still here and you could be too.

[00:46:15] And he could be, I know the answer. I know the answer. I know why. And I'm like the answer to what? But if you go back to the flashback, Mike is saying, what are we going for? Where's the happy ending here? This isn't life. This isn't anything close. Okay. Not for me, not for us and for our son. What's the answer here? And Terry says, well, what is the damn question? And Mike says, why? And so I think why, I guess means why try anymore? Why go on living? And the answer for Michonne, I think is cause she likes being connected with people.

[00:46:45] And the whole story in the ones who live is about this. It's about, she always says you choose love and she gets Rick to come back to choosing love, which means choosing to love the people that you care about. And so that's what she's doing right now. She just made that choice for herself by flipping out and killing a bunch of zombies and going and looking for people that she cares about. I think choosing to stay open to the people around you and to the possibility of radical new chosen family love.

[00:47:16] And, and when she found the house that were, uh, they were in, I didn't quite understand how she knew they were in there, but I guess she could just see them through the window. Right. Yeah. I think she'd been tracking various. I mean, Carl wasn't exactly subtle with all the kind of killing and stuff he was doing, but I think she'd tracked the footprints and then saw the pudding and must've been like someone ate that. Um, yeah, I think there was a bit of trial and error. When she got to the house, she knew she started crying. Like she knew she found him. Yeah. I think she saw them.

[00:47:46] Yeah. And she was so happy. And then she knocked and Rick looked through the people and he was really happy too. And I'm like, ah, these two, they're already bonded. It's for you. It's such an iconic line. I just wrote out. Yeah, that was so good. My notes just say, um, Rishon drops her katana, smiles and joy crying capital letter. She loves them so much. Cause she does. They'd have to be like, get this fucking couch out of here, dad. I told you.

[00:48:17] I'm picturing her turning up in the two of them, just like ragging on each other. And then dad did this dickhead thing and then Carl such a little shit. And she's like, oh, why did I come back? Oh my God. Let me find two zombies and cut off their arms and get out of here. That's all the points I had. Yeah. I'm pretty similar to be honest. Was Scott Gimple a walker in this? There was a walker that looked really like Scott Gimple in the prison. I don't know. I just like one of those ones where I was like, did they deliberately make him look like that?

[00:48:47] The opening shot, I've kind of just got some misc points. I liked the way that it took us back into the prison with the overhead shot. That kind of mirrored season one, episode one. I thought it was a flashback. I wasn't thinking of the tank last week for some reason. I'm like, oh, we're in Atlanta just for a split second. And then we even see like a horse with his guts kind of taken out. It was very cool.

[00:49:10] I think Michonne does a lot of very good kind of face acting in the quiet scenes here where she finds Herschel's head. She puts him down and you can see her kind of make the decision to move on and walk away. And it's just really such a beautifully performed episode. It took me longer than I'm proud of to figure out that it was a barbecue hut that they stayed in. I thought it was, I've written, is this a gas station or an old biker bar? And then I was like, oh, it's Joe and Joe Jr.'s barbecue hut. So there was literally a sign.

[00:49:41] Yeah, it's just great. It's really good. And it's good seeing Carl pick up things from his dad as well. Like when he goes into the second house, the one where he nearly gets, the walker gets his shoe but doesn't get him. He takes his gun, but he also takes something to kind of stab with, which is what Rick is trying to encourage him to do on the way. And it's cute that he puts a kind of compress on his dad's head and says, mum used to do this for me when I was sick. Yeah.

[00:50:10] Taking care of him. For Carl. Michonne sees herself. Well, she sees a walker that's clearly meant to be her. With dreads, yeah. Yeah. And she kind of literally kills her demons, which is great. There was something on the floor. Was it a dead budgie? Or budgie is a thing in the, like his little bed. A little bird, like a little tropical bird. Carl sees it on the floor in the house. I don't know why that was there. Is that a budgie? Yeah. It's probably a pet, right? Yeah.

[00:50:40] Because Carl looked so like distraught and I'm like, budgie, mate. Like no offense to any listeners who have budgies. They're wonderful animals and they're really cute. But I was a bit like, you've just seen a lot of horseshit. Lucy likes dead birds and horses. So I was thinking to myself, like, we never see cats in these houses. Like we never see like, because there'd be feral cats all over the place eating all sorts of disgusting shit. We never see them. Yeah. Yeah. Pissing at zombies. Pissing at zombies, man.

[00:51:11] Could a zombie catch a cat? Uh, I think only if it pretended to be nice for a little while. Yeah. Bent down and. Oh my goodness. No, I'm out. That's me. That's my points and notes, I think. Yeah. I only had one note and one piece of trivia before you go into yours. Uh, they, so they find this house.

[00:51:41] I thought it was kind of funny as they go up to it. All right. This is as good as any house. And they're standing outside, getting ready to go in and clear the place. And Rick says, quick and quiet. And then he kicks the door open. Bam. What? Carl's like, do you even hear yourself? Dad. God. What? Dad. God. No wonder the world's gone. Yeah.

[00:52:05] Uh, and then trivia is that there's many shots throughout the episode containing lawns that have been recently mowed. Most notably Carl's pudding scene on the roof. Little known fact, zombies eat grass. No, I added that last part. Only if they're vegetarian. That's true. Yeah. Yeah. Which they can be. And you can hold them by the legs and just push them around and it's like a lawnmower. Yeah. It's fine. It's actually really, it's actually quite efficient in summer.

[00:52:36] Um, I have some IMDB. While shooting Chandler Riggs had to constantly eat from a 112 ounce can of chocolate pudding. Although it was one of his favorite scenes. He admitted by the end he absolutely hated pudding. I think I've heard this where if you're, if you're an actor, you try to avoid eating in scenes because you have to redo the scene and redo the scene and you will end up sick of whatever food it is. So I feel like there's worse things than little spoonfuls of pudding, but I don't know.

[00:53:01] I mean, it's like that game where you take a shot of beer every minute for a hundred minutes. Oh my God. And it seems like just one shot, but by like shot 30, you're like, okay, I can't do this. I would be, oh my God. I would be barfing. Oh my God. That's horrific. Um, director Greg Nicotero was inspired to shoot scenes like a Western. It's a one road town and Carl is the new sheriff. So that's why some of the angles are quite cool when you see Carl sort of in the middle of the street walking around.

[00:53:31] Yeah. Cause it's like his dad, his dad was portrayed as a sheriff too. And he's exactly dad's image. Um, the opening shot of a tank surrounded by walkers mimics the ending shot of the very first episode. Um, the walkers Michonne has as her pets are two men from the governor's militia. When Carl enters a kitchen alone to search for food, there is a sign that says Fredag, which means Friday. In Danish, Swedish and Norwegian.

[00:53:58] Um, and when Rick is unconscious during this episode, the scene in which Carl, Carl, Carl, Carl leads the walkers away from the house is identical to the comic in dialogue and camera angles. I didn't have time to go back and check this issue of the comic, but I do believe that one's right. Um, I think this is quite closely linked to the same comic issue. Um, in terms of the timeline, um, the prison fell on day five to four. That's when Rick and Carl find their refuge.

[00:54:28] And we see Michonne put Herschel down on day five to five is Michonne's dream and Carl's I've written Carl's pudding and breakdown. We've all had those days of pudding and breakdown. It's better Jerry's for me, but yeah, I had Hagen Dazs for the first time in years yesterday. It was, it was, it was good. It's rich. Um, and day five to six, first of February is the Grimes reunion. So first of February, first of the month, they all get reunited in the. You mean Michonne and Rick? Yeah. They're family.

[00:54:58] Okay. Grimes reunion. Yeah. Um, and that's it. I didn't really do an only on the walking dead, but only on the walking dead. Would you rebel from your father by proving you can kill more zombies than his sorry ass? Only on the walking dead. Would you seriously consider taking 12 bottles of hot sauce as your sustenance for the next two days? I would do it. Actually, Jason, you would. Yeah. You'd be like, yeah, that's fine. Glug, glug, glug.

[00:55:25] Hello, moving chief.

[00:55:57] Yeah, they're dead. They're all messed up. Update. AMC announced that walking dead dead city season two premieres. Do you know when? Uh, you told me today it's June. Is that right? Start of June. Wrong. May 4th. May 4th. May 4th. Sunday, May 4th. Star Wars Day. Which, um, yeah, that's right. It's Star Wars Day.

[00:56:22] So since The Last of Us season two premieres April 13th, that means the two shows will overlap for four weeks. So about a month. So we'll be putting out, you know, coverage of both of those simultaneously, plus possibly feedback episodes for The Last of Us. So if we get enough feedback, so you're going to be getting a shit ton of stuff from us. So Ben is going to have a pretty horrific two months. We love you, Ben. Ben.

[00:56:47] Lucy, Ben, and Eric and I will be hosting for The Last of Us, kind of rotating in groups of three. And then Ben, with a rotating group of guests co-hosts, will cover Dead City like he did last time. That's the plan. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, Ben, that's a lot. That's a lot, man. You're going to do great. And, uh, AMC, Ben's editing every one of those episodes too. So that's nice of him. He doesn't know that yet, but no, I'm just kidding.

[00:57:16] Ben's also going to do my taxes and clean my car at the weekend, which is really nice of him as well, yeah. Yeah, he's really stepping up. AMC released the first two minutes of Dead City Season 2, Episode 1. I haven't watched it, but I'll put a link in the show notes. Does it seem interesting? Yeah, there's no spoilers. It's just kind of a scene and tone setting. New York. There's a fun musical cue. It's putting you back in New York. Cool. All right, that's it for the news. Let's move on to Lister Mones, Grounds and Grunts.

[00:57:49] Kirstie Bohan says, Carl Popper. What a blast from the past. We used to play those at Walker Stalker. It was so fun. And Chandler Riggs always loved those. That's why he became a DJ. I joking, I said, I phrased it to Peter as a question, but I think he heard me say, this is why Chandler Riggs became a DJ. And he was like, really? And I was like, no. Maybe, I don't know. Chandler, please write in. Confirm or deny.

[00:58:18] Wyman Owen said, they got my shoe, but they didn't get me. Yes, Wyman. Niels Cordes says, it's for you. If I had to pick my favorite moment from all of Walking Dead, that final scene would be all the way up there. After is one of the highlights of the show and it's the beginning of probably its best arc. I hope you'll excuse the excess of superlatives in my review. Niels, you're completely forgiven. Yeah, we've been right there with you. Yeah, completely agree. Megan Dively Lemon says, this reminds me of one of my favorite moments as a member of

[00:58:48] the Walking Dead fandom and it was only possible thanks to Jason. I got to interview the actors who played Carl and Enid at one of the conventions and came prepared with a giant industrial size can of pudding. Oh yeah, I forgot about that. Oh my God, that's amazing, Megan. I opened it up and handed it out in little sample cups to everybody who came to the audience and somewhere I have a picture of Chandler Riggs hoisting up the can with a smile. That is so cool. I need to try chocolate pudding when we're in Chicago in October. I love chocolate pudding. I've never tried it, so I'm excited too.

[00:59:19] Alma Contreras says, iconic Carl moment. I got to say, Carl kind of annoyed me in this episode originally. I feel a little different now. He really tugs at my heartstrings with him thinking Rick was dying and the thought of having to put him down like his mother. Paul kid. As a parent, I hated how Carl was treating Rick. I feel like he blamed Rick for how things went down, but now I have more compassion for how Carl was feeling and I do actually cry when Carl cries. P.S. I did agree with Veronica's take on Carl's demise. I wish they wouldn't have killed him off. Yeah.

[00:59:49] Yeah, I'm with you. She says, I don't think I could add anything beyond what Alma said, but I would like to ask, could you discuss Carl's demise a little more? I'm torn. I agree that it crippled the story, but there's a small part of me that appreciates that Rick had to go there. The Walking Dead was at its best when it slapped you across the face and gave you a pat on the back. These human moments, however dark, could teach us something. The way our favorite character triumphed or simply resisted, the way they survived could

[01:00:18] help us survive if we were at a low. So losing Carl is awful even more so now that I have a young son, but seeing Rick go on and honor his son, seeing him do something good with the time that remained is moving. But at the end of the day, it's a story and Kirkman had a clear vision. Is there a middle ground or was it just a debilitating call for the show? Can't wait for the next one. I mean, it's kind of what we were saying about Judith. You know, he's saying that about Carl here and I think you're both wrong. No, I'm just kidding.

[01:00:48] I don't know. I mean, yeah. I think what's hard, Nick, is knowing the background context of it like we do that it was contract negotiations. Like, that's what sticks in the craw for me. Like, if it had been a genuine creative decision or Chandler Riggs wanted off the show or something like that, I think I would have felt a bit more forgiving of it. But as it stands, I'm just like, it was just, it's kind of like with Maggie disappearing and coming back due to pay negotiations.

[01:01:14] Like, these things happen, but they bum me out because I want the story and the art to be the forefront of it. But it's a machine. It's a business. They tried to make it seem like it was a story decision where Carl wrote that letter to Rick and that changed his view on how to go forward with Negan and everything. But I don't buy that. I think that's just them trying to make a bad situation work.

[01:01:39] And I do honestly think, hand on heart, we might have had Andy Lincoln a bit longer if they hadn't killed off Carl. But I don't know. That was not a bad thing overall. So. I do think you have a point, Nick. And I just think, though, that, and I've always felt like The Walking Dead, one of its strengths is it wasn't afraid to kill off major characters because it made you fear for everyone else.

[01:02:06] And it could make for, you know, just see how it impacted everyone else. That could be good storytelling. But I always also felt that, man, this story started out with Rick going to find his family and finding his son and then protecting his son. And I just wanted to see them to survive to the end, you know, especially Carl, because

[01:02:30] I wanted it to be about Carl surviving this with his father and becoming a man. And they took that. They took it from me. They took it. I had. I don't know if I ever told you this story. Sorry, I am. Before I put before I hosted before I hosted the podcast, picking that out there, I used to frequent there were a couple of really good Walking Dead spoiler forums. And you know me, I love a spoiler. I don't do it when I'm podcasting. God knows. But I do love a spoiler. And.

[01:03:03] The season seven, there were a lot of rumors going to season eight. Sorry, there were a lot of rumors going around that Carl was going to die and blah, blah, blah. Down of what was going to go down in the episode. I don't know where the leak was, but for the episode where Carl died, an announcement went out on the forum saying for reasons which we will disclose later, we will not be revealing any spoilers about the show, this episode. And I was like, oh, AMC has come down on them really hard.

[01:03:31] Once it had aired, they revealed it was actually Chandler Riggs reached out to them and said, I really would rather this wasn't spoiled for the emotional impact. I remember that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I just thought it was so, A, it was cool that Chandler Riggs reached out and B, that they respected it and were like, yeah. And I just felt like that was like fan solidarity with what was happening and saying like, yeah, we will respect that. We won't take that away from you. I don't remember them ever doing that. They didn't do that with Glenn and Abraham. They didn't do it with kind of any other. Spoil the dead, right?

[01:04:01] That's. Yeah. And then it was TSDF for a bit, like they had to move servers and things like that. But it was a great forum. I think it's kind of dead now, obviously, because the show is not running. But yeah, I always thought it was nice that clearly Chandler Riggs had a handle on the fandom and knew that people would care. And yeah. And that he cared. And he cared. He wanted people to appreciate that. And yeah, I liked that they did that. I thought it was a classy move. Yeah. His letter was like, dear, spoil the dead.

[01:04:29] Can you just put a break on your usual bullshit for this episode, please? Thank you, assholes. He said, hey, assholes. Hey, assholes. Hey. And then his dad came in and like, directed him and was like, speak better. All right. Here's a call from Steve Brown. Steve. Hello, the cast of us. This is Steve. And this is going to be for The Walking Dead season four after. I get it. It's called after because it's after the events of the last episode. Isn't that every episode we have? Oh, the burned up tank.

[01:04:58] I don't know if throwing a grenade down the barrel of a tank would work, but it works in the movies and TV shows and comic books I've read. Okay. So they just showed the governor's dead body. Always wondered, do we ever see Lily again? I don't remember. Oh, and here's Michonne. Freaking out. Oh, she's getting her some more pets. You look like you were in bad shape, Rick. And Carl's just got that far away stare. Did she just see Rick and Carl's tracks? Is that what Michonne just saw? Good trick. Taking the TV cord to tie up the door with. That's good thinking, Carl.

[01:05:25] Oh, Carl, being a little crappy here, bringing up Shane and then just taking the pay chips out of his hand and opening them for him or whatever was in that bag of snack food. And now we cut to a Michonne flashback or whatever this is. Oh, okay. Some kind of dream or something because she's got the sword and Michonne has a child. And these guys' clothes are getting dirtier and dirtier as this dream goes on. Dry cereal for breakfast. That actually looks comfortable. Why didn't he sleep there last night?

[01:05:54] Oh, shouting at your dad just attracted some walkers. Not a good plan, Carl. Not good. But now you're drawing them away, so that's good. Close one. Four bullets, three walkers, and you had to crawl out from underneath them. Oh, Carl, come on. That's a little... Couldn't protect... Judith, couldn't protect... Oh. At least Rick's not awake to hear this. Oh, I'd be fine if you died. Come on, Carl. Now, that's not right. Okay, so Carl found a house with some canned goods and he's got a stabby stick. Big can of chocolate pudding. Ooh. Ooh. He got it.

[01:06:24] Oh, no, he didn't get it, and that was the last bullet. All right. He got out of there, but not without losing a shoe. Sam's room, apparently. Just gonna sit quietly and eat chocolate pudding on the roof. Okay, so Michonne freaked out, killed a bunch of walkers, and now she's back where she saw the tracks. Ooh. It sounds like Rick died and he's now waking up as a walker, but I think he's just breathing, Raspi. Oh, that was powerful by Danai Guerrero right there in that scene. And now we have Rick and Carl together talking about... Wow. That's great stuff.

[01:06:52] Oh, Michonne found the pudding house. She's knocking on the door. I remember. Does she bring the boot back? His shoe back? Of course she does. Oh. Next episode. She brings the shoe back? I don't... Really? Is she? I don't think so. Oh my goodness. Need to check that. That's amazing. He mentioned, do we ever see Lily again? And Veronica and I were actually like, did we see Lily die? And then we took that out because we didn't want to sound like idiots. But I can't remember. So I looked it up because I had the same thing. I was like, huh? We don't see Lily again.

[01:07:22] Tara tells Glenn that she saw Lily get eaten by zombies. Oh, really? Okay. I thought she died, but I don't remember seeing it in the episode. Yeah. I was like, that seems like an unfinished arc. Weird thing to have off screen. Steve, you've also reminded me that one of my friends does like to eat dry cereal out of the bag for a treat. I find that. It's my friend that you lost a bet to, Jason. Oh, that guy. Yeah. The Book of Timothy. Loves a handful of bran flakes. I have rinsed him for this repeatedly.

[01:07:51] I'm like, at least put them in milk. I'm the opposite of him because I like when the milk makes my cereal soggy. Oh, I'm somewhere in the middle. I did have a cereal milk latte once though and it was great. Thank you, Steve. Sorry. Maybe I'm hungry. Becky Anderson says, Though I found Carl annoying for most of this episode and the series, his and Rick's time together was powerful. The father-son pissing contest when trying to find shelter and supplies was sad.

[01:08:20] Carl sees himself as a man now and Rick is still looking at him like he's a child. The way Carl rages on Rick when he's passed out was intense. Telling Rick, I don't need you and he'd be okay if he died was awful. I mean, I get it. Rick does carry his fair share of the blame for things, but I don't think it's fair, Carl. And so many in the group turn on Rick when things go bad. He's not solely to blame here. Anywho, watching Carl turn, sorry, watching Carl venture out on his own only to almost die twice and to return to his zombie-like father was a good reminder for him that he does in fact need Rick.

[01:08:50] Yes, he's grown up a lot, but he's still a kid who needs his dad. Glad Michonne realized she's not better off alone and went to find her family. Rick's chuckle and it's for you comment to Carl when he saw Michonne through the door was the perfect ending to this episode. I entirely agree with that, Becky. It's such a good ending. I think Rick, I mean, Carl and Michonne had sort of different versions of the same realization that they need people or they don't want to be without people. Especially those people because they're family. Yeah.

[01:09:19] Carly Jackson says, hi, Jason and Lucy. I'm writing instead of leaving a voicemail because this episode got me right in the feels from the first moments of the episode watching Michonne. I connected with her grief. I'm grieving my own losses. I lost a friend, my grandmother and my dog in the last few months. I'm sorry, Carly. My dog was named Dixon. He had that name when I found him at the shelter, but I like to think he was named after Daryl Dixon. He might've been.

[01:09:46] It seemed to me that Michonne was looking at the destruction at the prison and thinking about how it's not worth it to put your effort into something good because it's just going to get ruined. She realizes that trudging alone among the walkers was no way to live and forming relationships with people is worth it even if you will lose them. Yeah. That's life. I love her dream slash backstory. It reminded me of the episode of The Ones Who Live that Danai Greer wrote because it felt very much like a play. Also, I feel for Rick.

[01:10:15] Even if the world ends, the dead walk among you and you get yourself beat to a pulp, you still have to deal with a moody teenager. Brutal. Okay. Bye. Oh, Carly. I'm so sorry for your losses. Yeah. Carly's going to come on and do an episode with us at some point. He's like, I read someone on Blue Sky was looking for the source of a quote and I never saw who the source of the quote was, but the quote was, having a pet is signing a contract with sadness. Yeah. It's true.

[01:10:45] I think about it a lot now that my cats are older and I'm like, oh no. We have two cats and I say that to my kids every once in a while. I'm like, you know, these cats aren't going to be around forever. I'm just trying to get them ready for it a little bit. Introduce them to the idea. Like, oh, it's so sad. My cats are going to live forever because I'm going to clone them. I mean, they're not, but it's fine. Billy Thompson says, hello, hello. Hope you guys are well. Can't believe I missed the last episode to write in.

[01:11:15] What a banger of an episode. So iconic. Anyway, I won't dwell on the past. This is another episode that I always seem to remember. The first time watching this episode, Carl annoys the shit out of me. This time around, I think I understand him more. He wants someone to blame. He has just lost everything and everyone, including Laurie and Shane, which he seems to be venting. These losses have made Carl battle with himself about which way is the right way to survive the apocalypse, which is incredibly similar to Rick throughout the series.

[01:11:43] I think the first time watching this, I seem to have forgotten he is a child living through a ZA, despite what Rick says. Hey, being an adult in normal life is confusing enough sometimes. I'm so happy Michonne notices she was almost the first generation of Whisperer and decides she's not going to become Alpha Shone and instead becomes Michonne. I love how the relationship flourishes from this episode onwards. We saw glimpses in Clear, but the next few episodes with this trio are just brilliant. Walking down the train tracks, playing games, sharing chocolate bars.

[01:12:13] Ah, I can't wait. Anyway, thanks guys. Bye! Bye! Bye, Billy, bye! Alright, here's Archmaester Rennie. Rennie. I noticed what a strong callback the opening of this episode has to Season 1, Episode 2, Guts.

[01:12:35] This episode, after, opens with an aerial shot looking down on the tank surrounded by walkers. In Guts, Rick is in a tank surrounded by walkers. In this episode, there's a dead horse in the field outside the prison. A callback to Rick's horse in Guts. Yeah. Then we see the governor and the similarity becomes a contrast.

[01:13:02] In Guts, Rick was saved by Glenn, but in this episode, the governor has been killed. By Glenn. Also, this episode teaches us an important lesson for the zombie apocalypse. Or, for that matter, for everyday life in the real world. Never, ever walk backwards. Yeah. That's what I kept thinking the whole time. I was at the gym today.

[01:13:32] Just a humble brag there. I went to the gym, everyone. I don't know if you know that. And the person I was working with encouraged me to do these kind of backwards walking squats. It was effing difficult. So, like, yeah, don't go backwards if you're in a hurry and you're being chased by walkers. I firmly agree with that. I mean, I would have been at least sidestepping or something. Serpentine. Get on the ground and, like, kind of scuttle like a crab. Somersaults. Yeah. Oh, thank you, Renny. Thanks, Renny.

[01:14:01] Deborah Olmer says, hi, Jason and Lucy. I wasn't able to get all my thoughts together in time to post for the last episode. But I did want to say how it's one of my top midseason finales in the series. Ooh. Not only the tension building to the climax, but it's really devastating when you think about it all. Yeah. We lose Herschel and the prison, but also all those people who followed the governor didn't even know they were really getting into. As for this episode, I'm really excited to be getting into this area of The Walking Dead. Me too.

[01:14:30] These next few seasons are some of my favorite episodes of the series. I love that this first one, after our group is split up, is only dedicated to the Grimes 2.0. Rick was struggling for his life in the aftermath of his beatdown from the governor, but made it through. Carl Papa was acting all big and bad, getting on my nerves, LOL, until the end when his facade breaks down to see that he's still a kid that needs his father. Yeah. But the best part in the heart of this episode for me is Michonne's journey. You get to see a little of her backstory from her dream.

[01:15:00] It's truly jarring and heartbreaking. This loss is why her walls were up and took a while to break them down. Yeah. She was so close to returning to that, but realized that she'd found family again and went to go after them. Rick Carl and Michonne's reunion is one of the sweetest. Even though you don't see them reunite on screen, you can feel their emotions coming through from both sides of the door. I was so happy for them. Take care of y'all. Yeah, that was kind of a weird decision to not have, not actually show it, but just the anticipation for it.

[01:15:29] I kind of like it because it's different, but it's a little weird. It's just such a baller move to have it end on. It's for you. It's just so good. So good. Andrea Abarka says, Hi, Jason and Lucy. It's been a few weeks since I've written in, since I wanted to skip the Governor episodes. I appreciate your honesty, Andrea. I have been listening, though, as I could never skip my favorite dynamic duo. Oh. I did try to watch Too Far Gone because I wanted to see Daryl throwing a grenade into the tank and doing all my favorite Daryl things.

[01:15:59] But I couldn't bring myself to listen to the Governor's voice. And most importantly, I couldn't watch Herschel die. So I'm back to rejoin you for after. The first time I watched this group of episodes coming up, I remember being frustrated that they were all separated. I desperately wanted them all to find each other. But now I am watching them with a different perspective since I know what happens. I remember thinking Carl was being a little jerk on my first watch of this episode, but I see it so much differently now. Although Rick is really hurt and I feel he could try having a little more compassion.

[01:16:26] This kid just lost his home, his sister, he thinks, has found family and could possibly lose his dad. Chandler Riggs was really impressive with everything he brought. From angry teenager to scared little kid when he thinks Rick is a walker. When he broke down crying, my heart just ached for him. The chocolate pudding made me laugh. When I visited Sonoya, I went on one of those Walking Dead tours. They took us to the house where they filmed that scene, so it just made me smile to see it again. This was a great episode and a lot of emotions just seeing everyone struggle.

[01:16:54] I'm looking forward to going through all the next episodes in such good company. Until next week, don't get bit. Thanks, Andrea. I feel like I saw that house on the market at some point. It's Carl's Pudding House, $400,000 or something. I meant to say in response to Deborah's email as well, I'm trying to remember all the different mid-season finales. I think, yeah. Maybe that's a question for us to think about. What is your favorite mid-season finale? Season one was obviously Sophia.

[01:17:24] No, one didn't have one. Season two was Sophia coming out. Season three was The Dixons in the Ring. Oh, was it? Okay. Season four is this one. Season five. I'm not going to remember any of the ones going forward until we get to them. I don't think. Alexandria. Oh, no, Tyrese. Was it Rick waving his gun around and Michonne clocking him in the head? No, I don't know. Yeah, just another Tuesday for them. We'll have to see. Yeah. That's where this relationship goes too.

[01:17:54] Yeah, that's where this relationship goes. I love how we're like, there's such goals. I'm like, she hits him in the head with a gun and knocks him out publicly. Chill the fuck out, yeah. I'm like, heart eyes. That's what you do if you love someone. Yeah. All right. Rachel Teal Edwards says, This episode is so low-key and somehow one of the most memorable simultaneously. Yeah. It's the perfect start to the second half of the season in this arc of episodes. I may not have a ton of feedback. LOL. Yeah, right. Because I was just enjoying this episode.

[01:18:24] So many iconic scenes and such a welcome change of pace after what we've just been through. Rick is an inch from death and is in a contest with his adolescent son to see who could be more of a stubborn asshole. Personally, I think Rick wins. Take a seat, man. Carl's full of rage and projecting it all onto his father. I don't blame him. Even near death, Rick is treating him like a child. Plus, Carl just witnessed the horrifically violent end to the established and comfortable life that they had worked so hard to create.

[01:18:50] Whether it's his dad's fault or not, there's no one else around to scream at. I mean, I have compassion for both of them. Rick just got beaten to death. Yep. Almost literally. And lost his baby daughter. So if he's a little grumpy, I can understand it. Yeah. Exactly. He's like to be a little moody. Yeah. Who hasn't screamed at your kids? Eat it now! His anger brings me back to what Carol said. You can be a farmer, Rick.

[01:19:20] You can't just be a farmer. Yeah. Carl felt as she did that Rick was being too passive. Though some of his anger is misplaced and irrational, I'm kind of left wondering what more Rick could have done. Yeah. I mean, they're in the zombie apocalypse. It's hard. But maybe they needed an actual plan in place for if the governor returned, staying vigilant and keeping their defenses up instead of getting too comfortable. That's true. More of a defense slash attack plan as opposed to an escape plan. But they could add a better escape plan too. Like, for example, having a rendezvous point maybe. Yeah.

[01:19:49] I mean, that was something that is, yeah, baffles me. Baffles me. Yeah. Yeah. It's just for story purposes that they don't have. Of course. At any rate, we get to watch Carl work through these big emotions and it's such a joy. Anyway, he's proving to himself that he's capable of being on his own. And even though he's definitely a survivor in that way, in the end, it's not what he wants at all. And we get a beautiful emotional breakdown from Carl and that precious father son moment. Michonne's story is a little more abstract.

[01:20:15] I think she chooses at first to go off on her own instead of following the footprints in the mud because she's in shock after the trauma of the battle and isn't thinking clearly. Ooh, interesting. I think I hadn't thought about, I didn't realize that she chose not to follow the footprints, but to me, that's because of what one of the other listeners, I forget which one was saying where it's like, it's too, uh, there's too much pain when you, um, attach yourself to people. Yeah. Cause then you'll just lose them.

[01:20:44] That's what I thought, but I don't know. Um, I had to spend some time rewatching her dream sequence and then fast forwarding to immediately watch her talk to the ghost of Mike in real time. At the beginning of the episode, she's in the same state of mind as Mike was during that dream and flashback. I agree with that. What are we going for? Where's the happy ending here? This isn't life. What's what's the answer here? Why? She has lost hope and is questioning what the point is of trying, of creating a community and a life with people she cares about.

[01:21:14] If it all just goes to shit in the end. Anyway, then she sees her dead doppelganger and realizes that in this state of mind, she's essentially one of the walking dead. If that hopelessness is her mentality, she will end up exactly like the dead woman walking beside her, but there actually is more to life. Even now it's worth loving people, caring about people fighting for them, creating something out of this, nothing in the hope that someday they will get back to look luxuries like wine and cheese while arguing about pedestrian art.

[01:21:42] So yeah, Mike was wrong. Life is worth living and people are still worth loving. There are two really good reasons to keep fighting and their names are Rick and George. No, I'm just kidding. Rick and Carl. And then it's for you and all of our hearts explode. Yeah. Well said. Because it's so good. Thank you, Rachel. Okay, here's Renee. Renee. Oh, I bet she's going to have some things to say about Rick's outfit.

[01:22:11] Hi, guys. This is Renee calling. Listen, I got to do it. La giga ja ja do do do do. I didn't say it right. I think that song is so cute called Papa. Oh, my God. That is super, super cute to me. Like, I have been playing that to depth. Seriously. Since Mike came on there and Mike was saying that. And then Jason, you came back. I love it. And you know what? Before I even get started on The Walking Dead, listen, Jason, you and Lucy was on Welcome

[01:22:40] to the Apocalypse. That was so hilarious. It's like they forgot to call Lucy Mildred. They were like, Jason and Lucy. That was my fault. Oh, my God. I'll tell you, Welcome to the Apocalypse is hilarious. I really need to be on there. I need to bring some of my vibe to Welcome to the Apocalypse. It'd be great. All right, let me get started. Poe Michonne. She was all alone again. I felt for Michonne in this episode. And I can understand how she feel.

[01:23:09] I can empathize with her losing a child and not, you know, she was at odds with herself about, should I do this again? Do I want to put myself back through this again? Do I want to open up? Do I want to love? Because clearly Daryl taught them how to track. And when she saw the footprints and she just went off into the woods, I was like, no, Michonne, what are you doing?

[01:23:36] So I'm glad that, you know, she went back and went and found her family. Because clearly Michonne, Rick, Carl, and Judith are meant to be a family. It's like this episode here, people say that they don't see or don't feel the chemistry. There's no way. Like that Rick couldn't even look at Michonne when they were in the kitchen talking about Carl. He couldn't even look at her. Like he does not even know what the freak is going on himself, probably. He's like, what the hell?

[01:24:04] This lady has come in, you know, in my life. And I'm feeling something. I'm all tingly inside. And I understand, baby, because when I look at Rick Grimes, I get all tingly inside as well. And I am so mad at the governor. It's like, Lord, the governor put a hurting on my man. I'm talking about his face is beat up so freaking bad. That hurt me to my heart. How dare you beat that pretty face up like that? But that's okay. That gangster. That's okay. Gangster. That gangster going to come back. That's okay. He coming back.

[01:24:33] The governor was jealous of him. He was jealous of his swag. He was jealous of everything about Rick Grimes. That's why he beat his face up. That's why I'm fight. Because no one is going to mess up my pretty face. Because you know what? When you cute, they go straight for the face. That's what they do. They just mess with the face. That's true. And Michonne's boyfriend, Aldi Hodge, oh my gosh, I love him. That is my man crush. I love him too. I love Rick Grimes, not Andrew Lincoln so much because he's a permanent proper. I like him gangster. And Aldi Hodge, straight gangster. I love him.

[01:25:03] He was in the Underground Railroad. And I hate that they canceled that show, that series, because it was so freaking good. I love him. I wish he would have stayed in The Walking Dead. And I don't know which one I would have chose. But not just Rick and Aldi Hodge, I also love Mercer. That's my boo too. Mercer can get it. Oh, he's great. Mercer definitely can get it. Okay. Now that I done went to rambling, Carl. Oh my God. It was, I was so, it was so sad to, it was just really sad to see that baby look in that TV like that and not recognize himself.

[01:25:33] I mean, I know that it was jarring for him. He's like, who is this? Who is this kid? And, you know, like I said, I empathize with him because he's a child growing up in the ZA. As an adult, you don't know how to channel your emotions. So I can only imagine as a child, he had to put his mother down, lost his baby sister, lost his whole family, his family that he has met during the ZA. They are family. And I can just only imagine. That's how I would feel if I lose you guys.

[01:26:02] Like if I lose you guys, I'm going to feel some type of way. I'm telling you, if something was to happen and I would not be able to get on this podcast and talk to you guys, I would feel the same way. Because you guys have become my family. You guys have become just, I look forward to interacting with you guys every week. And Jason mentioned that hopefully we're going to meet one day. Hopefully we're going to meet one day. Hopefully we're going to get together and we're all going to have fun.

[01:26:31] I hate I was not a part of the podcast because I noticed that you all did come to Atlanta at one point in time. And I was not a podcast part of the podcast then. So I missed out. But one day, somehow or another, we're going to meet. But all righty, I will talk to you guys later. Peace and love. Bye. Oh, Renee. I can't wait. I think it will be great. In the days of the conventions, the Walker Stalker, we were meeting up all the time. Yeah, there were so many. Fans and listeners. Yeah.

[01:26:58] I mean, I would have a meetup at every convention. And they were in cities all around the country and also over in London. That was so much fun. Yeah. And so if they were only still doing that, I mean, Atlanta was like the flagship one every year too. So we would totally need that. But we'll figure out something. Yeah. I mean, yeah, we'll figure out something for sure. I have no doubt. We'll meet at some point. We will. All right. That is our show. Episode 627.

[01:27:28] Thanks so much, everybody, for listening. As always. Next episode will be The Walking Dead. Season 4. Episode 10. Inmates. Of which I have zero memory. I have no clue what happens. Oh. Is it the Glenn one? I guess I'll find out. Glenn, yeah. Yeah, maybe. If you want to write in or leave us a voice message about it, you can find all our contact information at podcastica.com. While you're there, please check out our other podcasts.

[01:27:57] Man, I'm loving White Lotus Season 3 in Thailand. It's so great. I think I probably keep bringing that one up. Are you digging it? You guys digging it? I'm really enjoying it. Yeah. When I was sick, I re-watched Seasons 1 and 2 from my sick bed. So, yeah. I'm very much enjoying it. Just love that show so much. Yeah. And I know some people in the fan group are like, oh, this season's not as good. But then you always get a ton of other people going, what are you? Crazy? It's great. Yeah. Between that, Severance and Yellow Jackets. Severance, yeah. I've got a lot of TV at the moment. I'm like, oh, it's good.

[01:28:27] Yeah. And we don't have a Severance podcast just because we couldn't get it together and there's too many other things. But I'm also very much enjoying that. And if you want to chat about it, come to our Facebook group and look for the Severance chat. Or our Discord. Or Discord, yeah. All right. This episode was made possible by Patreon supporters like Ash, who've pledged their support at patreon.com slash Jason Cabassi. So thank you to Ash. Thank you. Ash gets access.

[01:28:53] So I finally, I've talked about it a few times, but we finally recorded our hip hop call-in show the other night where we all took turns playing hip hop songs. And it was very eclectic. There was stuff in the 70s, 80s, 90s, every decade probably. And some was really commercial and some was really hardcore and artsy. And it was really fun. And I really enjoyed it. I think Amelie's making a playlist of the songs that we play. Oh, I love it. I would love that. Super cool. All right. That is our show. Thanks for listening.

[01:29:23] Don't get bit Veronica Hood.

[01:30:03] Don't get bit Veronica Hood.