"Another Shitty Lesson" (TWD: Dead City S2E2)

[00:00:00] Hmm? Ah! Hmm. Podcastica!

[00:00:54] It's layered and exciting. So, even when my dad is being a tyrannical fucking asshole, I always had Bach. And if I could just focus on Bach, then maybe I could get through another shitty lesson.

[00:01:48] What's up, Zedheads? Welcome to the podcast. I'm Ben. And I'm Alex. And this is The Cast of Us, Episode 644. And this episode, we're covering The Walking Dead Dead City Season 2 Episode 2, Another Shitty Lesson. Ah, what a great title for an episode. It really works and it kind of covers everything that you need it to in just those three simple words. Right?

[00:02:16] Um, so before we get into anything, because we have a lot of feedback to do, um, we're gonna, like we said, we're gonna start doing feedback from the previous episode first before we go into Episode 2. So we're gonna go through all the feedback we got for Episode 1, dive into that a little bit, then we'll discuss Episode 2, and then we'll wrap things up. But before we do that, there was two things I wanted to make mention of.

[00:02:38] Um, the first is a question for you, because you recently went and listened to all the episodes from us covering Dead City Season 1. So it's more fresh in your head than, then my own. So I wanna see if you recollect me ever saying something. I was taking notice watching the episode this week, that when they show the Statue of Liberty in the opening,

[00:03:08] it shows that there is a ladder to the crown of the Statue of Liberty, meaning people are up there. Yes. Did I ever bring that up? I don't recall it. Okay. And it's so funny you mentioned that, because when this season started, I will say I'm probably gonna get filleted for doing this, but I am who I am, and I will accept it. I hit skip intro. Okay. I accept it, folks. It's fair.

[00:03:37] I skip an intro credits. All right. I got a lot of things to do and very little time to do it in. But I did notice this season that ladder and the people moving around inside the crown. And I did wonder, was that was that in season one? I didn't remember that from the season one. It was. I'm gonna tour. Okay. Thank you. Because I'm a notorious skipper. So I didn't know. So, unlike some other shows, like The Last of Us, Game of Thrones, things like that, the credits have not changed. Yes.

[00:04:05] At least anything that I have taken notice of. If there's anything, it's been very, very subtle. So when I saw this this time, the ladder leading up to the crown of the Statue of Liberty, I actually went back and watched the credits from season one. And nothing has changed. Everything's the same. Okay. So that's why I'm wondering if I brought it up during season one. I don't recall it being brought up. Okay. But that kind of goes into what I had made mention of before.

[00:04:34] Is that how the Statue of Liberty could literally be like Negan's throne room in the end? Oh, it has to be Negan's headquarters. It has to be just like his, once he fully accepts the, the world of the crowd, like that whole, I don't know how it's going to happen. We'll get to it later in the episode, but yes, that statue is coming into play and it's going to be Negan's like home base of some sort. Yes. I'm, it has to be like, has to be. It's too obvious.

[00:05:04] And the show has a tendency to telegraph. Yeah. I am going to get into. Yes. 100%. Ben, we're going to have to get through this feedback because I have, I'm so ready to explode just from the last time on the cat, the, the walking dead. And it anyways, we'll get there. Okay. Okay. That's fair. Uh, so the other thing I wanted to bring up is it actually released. We're recording this on a Tuesday. We usually record this Monday nights, um, and then release on Wednesday because the last of us coverage releases on Tuesday.

[00:05:33] Uh, however, because of my schedule, we are recording this on a Tuesday night, which kind of worked out because earlier today on YouTube, if you're not unfamiliar with hot ones, uh, and the first we feast channel, uh, on Tuesdays, they, so on Thursdays, they released their typical. You know, episodes of hot ones on Tuesdays. However, they release episodes called versus where it's two celebrities pitting against each other. This week was Lauren Cohan and Jeffrey Dean Morgan.

[00:06:02] Oh, so to anyone that has never watched hot ones, I cannot recommend it enough. Sean does some of the best investigative journalism to come up with some of the most unique questions that, that these celebrities don't often get and his ability to draw realistic non-manufactured. Answers out of them is, is amazing.

[00:06:23] I'm, I'm very jealous as a, as a podcaster, as a interviewer, as a journalist, I am incredibly jealous of Sean Evans because he has, he has found a niche and a format that has just taken off and skyrocketed the popularity. And like so much of that, I'm a huge fan and, and I watched these episodes too. Now versus Sean is not part of these are just the two celebrities back and forth.

[00:06:52] So I'm, again, I'm bringing this up because it is related because it was Lauren Cohan and Jeffrey Dean Morgan this week. So if you're hearing this and you haven't had the chance to watch that, I'm going to have, we're going to make sure the link to that video is in the show notes this week so you can find it. I highly recommend it. It is a lot of fun watching them compete against each other for the trophy and eating incredibly hot wings at the same time. I can't wait to check it out. I can't wait to check it out.

[00:07:20] And hearing, hearing Lauren, Lauren Cohan drop the F bomb is just adorable to me. So one thing I've thoroughly enjoyed this season on dead city is the behind the scenes featurettes where we hear Lauren Cohan's most fascinating natural dialect because of all the different lives she has lived and all the different. It's the craziest muddled. It's the craziest muddled. It's the craziest muddled. Like no linguist alive could ever pick out what exactly she is. It's great. I adore it.

[00:07:49] She's, she's, she's a Jersey girl who grew up in the UK and is now back in the States. Like it's, and has been playing a southerner for over a decade. And it's been playing a southerner. Exactly. Just all the, all the stuff, all the stuff. I adore it. Yeah. It's not, I, we've talked about this already. And anybody who knows me well knows like I have had a massive crush on her for the longest time. I adore her so much. I've, I've had the pleasure of meeting her a number of times.

[00:08:16] I hope to one day just share the stage with her as I have people like Ross and other people, but that's for another time. But yes, check out hot ones versus from this week with Lauren and Jeff. It is a ton of fun. And it's only about like 20 minutes. So it's not like it's going to take up a huge portion of your, those, those episodes are really, really digestible. Yeah. Yeah, for sure.

[00:08:42] Um, and I also, see now I'm on the hot ones kick. Um, uh, the Paul Rudd episode of hot ones is just iconic. It is. He has, he has become a legendary guest on, uh, on that show. Childish Gambino is a really good one too. Don Glover. Yeah. Don Glover's is another good one.

[00:09:02] There's another one that's more recent that, uh, another episode of versus that they just did recently was, um, Haley Steinfeld and, and Michael B. Jordan. Oh, when they were promoting sinners, that one was a lot of fun. That's a good combo platter. So again, we were, we digress. We're getting off topic. Uh, let's dive into some of the episode, some of the feedback that we got for episode one and we'll get through that. And, and, and before we start talking about episode two.

[00:09:32] Uh, so we got a ton of Facebook feedback, a couple emails as well. And of course we have a voicemail from our great friend, Steve Brown, that we're going to play, uh, at the end as well. So I will kick things off. Um, most of the, at most of the feedback was positive. There's a couple negative ones in there. Uh, the negative is not towards us. It is towards the show, but you know what? We know how diverse of this show is because of Negan.

[00:10:03] So I knew we were going to get it. So let's start with those first. Let's get those. Um, uh, this one comes from dobelino, Bob grippy. Uh, he says predictably boring. Nothing happened that I was surprised at at all whatsoever. Continuing the Maggie and Negan story is contrived. If this was the eighties, they would, they would have had a sitcom instead. I would watch that. Uh, of bad sitcom, like Maggie and Negan go to Hawaii. I would not watch that.

[00:10:33] Uh, Maggie should have just closed the book on Negan in the regular show. She would have had closure and Negan still would have been Negan. I don't know if I agree with that. Uh, changing Lucille at all is like messing with Superman's cape. It's iconic enough and you don't need to do anything too much. Could we, and not enough. Should we, I'm actually teetering on whether or not to continue watching out of all the spinoffs. This one is probably the worst and least interesting the writers and all involved.

[00:11:01] They're exploring the personalities of Maggie and Negan further, but I'm not convinced. When I heard JDM say that I envisioned tire spinning in the mud. Oh, when I heard JDM say that I envisioned tire spinning in the mud. He keeps playing Negan because they keep paying him. I don't agree with that. Uh, period. And they're going to ride the Negan train right into the ground to the point of fear without knowing it odd. And oh yeah, it is a spy. So double Lena, you really saved yourself with that final line there.

[00:11:31] Uh, you need a spy. Well done. I love that. So I, I appreciate your little interjections throughout because I felt pretty much the same. So double Lena. Now I don't know what you thought the show is going to be, but it was always a Negan and Maggie spinoff. And what could you do other than explore their personalities and what makes Maggie and Negan, Maggie and Negan? And so I, that's a fair point.

[00:12:00] You may not continue. It might not be the right cup of tea for you and to each their own. Like, honestly, I haven't finished Daryl Dixon season two because it just, it didn't grip me as much. Same as 100% same, you know? So if this isn't for you, I'm here to let you know, like, it's okay to just kind of back off and check out the periphery. Um, there's nothing wrong with that, but like, I'm sorry to hear that you didn't enjoy that first episode. Yeah. I mean, look, you're, you're absolutely right to each their own, uh, no criticisms that you don't like it.

[00:12:30] It's not everybody's cup of tea. I, I took on the challenge of covering this show, knowing full well that I wasn't bringing on the full audience of everybody who watched the walking dead. I, I know, you know, I knew people were not going to watch the show because of their feelings of Negan. And, but to me, the dynamic of taking two characters who were so polar opposite at the time that

[00:12:59] this show started two characters who you would look at and be like, oh, you would never put them together because of their history. And then you actually put them together and you watch that dynamic. I'm like, no, that's what intrigues me is. I want to see what comes of that. The friction of those two characters forcibly being put together is what drew me to watch the show.

[00:13:24] It's if they would have continued loss with Benjamin Linus and Hurley on the island for five more years, figuring some things out. I would have watched the heck out of that. And 100%. Those were two completely different characters that never really shared a lot of screen time or like got along. So I, I don't know. I think a spinoff of opposites has, has, has legs and potential. Yeah. I mean, and the only other thing I'll say, um, dobelino to your, uh, to your feedback

[00:13:52] is, and thank you for writing in, by the way, I don't want this to, I don't want this to feel like we're attacking you at all. Um, or anybody to feel like we're attacking him or anybody at this point, but the, he keeps playing Negan because they keep paying him. I don't agree with that either. I've seen a number of interviews with Jeff and he actually like, he really just enjoys the dynamic of this character and the challenge of playing this character. He knows full well that this character is hated by many. And that's one of the reasons why he enjoys playing it.

[00:14:21] So I don't, I don't think it's about the paycheck at all. I think he really legitimately enjoys playing this character. He's played it for 12 years. And he's done a great job at it. And he's added layers and nuance to him. I mean, much like an ogre or an onion that he's got layers and I appreciate that. I do. Yeah. Um, all right, moving on to our next bit of feedback, this one from Andrea a Barca. Hello. I'm glad to hear that. I am not the only one who didn't care for the show. Maggie is still irritating and I cannot stand any of the new groups.

[00:14:51] Not sure. I will continue to watch about the only person I don't find annoying is Negan. Everyone else is a cartoon character. As I grew up close to the city, I have enjoyed an apocalyptic New York, but I don't think it's enough to keep me watching. Um, fair enough, Andrew. Honestly, the pretty much the same stuff that we were saying before. Um, I, I hear you with the Maggie is irritating. Uh, sometimes, um, and Negan delightful, but I don't know. I, I like the story that they're building.

[00:15:20] I like what they're fleshing out as we get deeper into season two. Yeah, that's again, it's fair. If it's not for you, it's not for you. And I don't want people to feel like we're forcing you to watch it. It's, it's all subjective. If you don't like it, that's fair. We're not offended. If you stop it's, you know, but we do recommend you continue to follow the show to keep up with all the happening going on inside of New York city. That sounded so much like a tourism ad.

[00:15:50] Oh, thank you. Yep. All right. Moving on to our next bit of feedback. This one comes from Dray Manoni. Uh, I really debated for a while about whether I'd renew my AMC plus for the show and kept hearing Jason in my head talking about another show and how, if you don't watch it live, are you a true fan? So I watched it. I love seeing Maggie and Negan in terms of a continued story, but I do hope it gets better. The first episode was just okay. I wasn't totally wrapped up in the plot or anything.

[00:16:18] Nothing too exciting happens, but here we go. I'm, I want to, I want to, I'll take lukewarm. Yeah. I mean, it's, you know, and I'm wondering though, because I'm, I'm kind of trying to figure out by the tone of this and what they were saying, are they talking about the first episode of season one? Like, or are they, or did they start with season two? Like I'm trying to figure that out by this email. Uh, Dre, let us know. Like, I don't know.

[00:16:49] I don't know if you're caught up or, or I don't, yeah, I don't know, but hopefully you're sticking with it and you're still more. If you're hearing this, I'm glad you stuck with it. And I want to hear, uh, let us know where you were at when you, when you wrote that. I agree. Uh, next up from Andy Fisher. Has it been explained why Maggie is no longer at Hilltop slash Alexandria? I don't think so. Uh, I think the second season is starting much better than the first season.

[00:17:19] I could watch Maggie do anything. I think it's really clever that they put Negan in this diabolical situation where he has to bring out the full Negan and great villain characters too. Who the fuck is this evil woman? And my favorite part is that does not actually narrow it down that much. She's amazing. I agree with some of the critique here that the explanation of who these new community slash new characters is a little vague and I'm not fond of the Dower teenage characters. I wonder if Herschel storyline will follow the comic book. I can't wait to watch the rest of the season.

[00:17:49] Dear AMC execs, please bring back more of our beloved TWD characters. Uh, Andy loved it. Big fan, big fan. Um, I don't know which evil woman you're talking about. Probably the Dama could be the Dama could be the general could be Navarez. Like all three could qualify at this stage in the, in the, in the story. Um, although maybe not by episode one. So I, I loved it.

[00:18:14] Um, the Dower teenage characters, you know, there's only so much you can do with angst. And like, you think about the characters in this universe, you've had Carl, you have Enid, you've had, uh, well now Herschel and, and, and company to add to the crew. It's not easy to get that kind of dialogue. Right. And, and I like what they're doing with Ginny Herschel. We'll see. We'll see. Yeah. And as far as, uh, I hope that they're following a wonder if Herschel storyline will follow the comic book. I, this might just be me.

[00:18:43] I don't remember her show in the comic books. So, um, spoiler alert to anyone that didn't finish the comic. But more or less towards the end, Herschel became a traveling sideshow guy with, um, like walkers on display, like a circus thing brought them to, uh, the Commonwealth where Carl rest in peace was still living. And there was a big to do, ah, man. Now I am starting to question myself on, on, but essentially he was an entitled sheltered snowflake prick.

[00:19:14] Oh, okay. Yeah. That's kind of where it, it seems like Maggie, a kind of more or less made it so that whatever he wanted growing up, he got, and that made him very entitled and very dickish. Okay. Fair enough. Yeah. Uh, next piece comes from Robin Springer. She said, uh, they say, Hmm, I should have rewatched the last episode of season one. I was surprised to see Negan in a cell and Maggie in a nice little community. Anyway, I really don't like mustache dwelling villains like the new Babylon governor and

[00:19:43] her henchwoman, uh, and the older woman whose name I don't know. The Croat is meh. Uh, the actor got an extra gig while they were filming. He was in a new episode of law and order. I think every actor who has ever acted has been in an episode of law and order at some point. That's I mean, the Duchess of Sussex was in an episode of law and order. Robin Williams was in an episode of law and order. Like now you're cooking with gas. Everybody's been in law and order at some point. Uh, nice call back to Maggie hanging. What's his name at Hilltop though.

[00:20:13] And Lucille electrified. Wow. I don't know. It's weird. Not sure. I like it, but I'll keep watching and see how it goes. Love it. Love it. Next up from Chad Johnson. One of my favorite wide receivers in Cincinnati bangles history. Hello. I didn't expect a big bang start. It laid a lot of groundwork and fast. New Babylon's hold on the communities is brittle because of crop loss and not ethanol. So they need the tech to use methanol.

[00:20:41] Maggie didn't want to weaken the bricks by losing fighters on this exploratory mission. So she volunteers. I liked how Negan didn't give in right away. The mama bear story was pretty good plot reason that and they are going to have to deal with new Babylon. The friend of Annie was a bit convenient to push him into it. After all, I do hope we see Annie and meet the son of Negan. The scene in the church was definitely the highlight of the episode. It shows how this tech is going to affect the balance of power. Flamethrowers. Definitely a new fresh touch.

[00:21:11] Interested to see where it goes and mainly how anything ties into the other shows. I'm not seeing a real big bad that would be able to threaten the civic republic. Great call. I love my dear Chad that you brought that into the wider scope of it all and just like, okay, where does this fit in the grander story? CRM in theory is right down the road in Philadelphia. Like how is there not enough?

[00:21:37] I love what's possible from here in that tie in. Yeah. Yeah. And I feel like a couple of these things have actually changed since him writing this just in the second episode. Yeah. So there's been a couple new balances of dynamic and for sure in just the second episode since we received this. So, but we'll get into that when we, uh, when we talk. I love it. Uh, next up comes from Deborah Ulmer.

[00:22:06] Uh, hi Ben and Alex. I understand the discourse surrounding dead city and I don't blame any walking dead fans for not liking or watching it. Personally, I'm not a fan of the Maggie and Negan pairing, especially after they came to an understanding and a fitting conclusion at the end of the main series. However, I tune in because Negan is entertaining and I love the New York setting. The expanding world building with different factions and leaders is also enjoyable reminding me of the John wick universe, which is one of my favorites.

[00:22:36] Uh, that's a good comparison to it really is. Uh, the episodes opening scene was cool showcasing how zombies are converted into methane to light up Manhattan. I feel for Maggie dealing with two angsty teens and I'm glad Negan's family is still relevant. I hope they're not used as a plot device. It's fun to see the Croat fanboy admiration for Negan. And I'm excited to see how the groups clash and align. Y'all have a good one and take care. Yeah, I'm again.

[00:23:03] That's one of the main reasons why I tuned into is because I I've I'm a fan of Maggie or I'm a fan of Lauren Cohen as Maggie. I love Jeffrey did Morgan as Negan and the environment itself. The New York setting is really to be completely honest. That was the biggest draw for me. I wanted to see the walking dead universe set in Manhattan. For me, it was just more walking dead. But, um, I do think the urbanized world, which we really, I mean, we barely scraped the surface of Atlanta and New York is not Atlanta.

[00:23:33] So it has been fascinating and a whole lot of fun to check out. Yeah, for sure. All right. Next up we have from Josie Bowen. I'm not even going to try and pronounce that last. I believe it's actual, but I apologize if we if we get it wrong. All right, Josie, if we did, please let me know. Hello, podcast fam. It's been a minute as I've been in a days of newborn baby snuggles and lack of sleep. My husband and I decided to finally watch the last of us last week and been watched to catch up in a total of two days.

[00:24:03] Both seasons. I'm still not quite caught up on the actual podcast episodes, but I'm finally caught up on everything as far as the show goes today felt so exciting to have two episodes of our shows to watch. Here's my thoughts on dead city. I found myself irritated Maggie through the majority of her screen time. I did appreciate the moment when Maggie and Herschel discussed the light signal. To be honest, I've not been the biggest fan of Maggie since Glenn died and watching her continue to not be the best mom to Herschel because of her wrath slash obsession with Negan is painful.

[00:24:33] Her character's journey has been frustrating me for a while. I'm interested in Negan's plotline, especially as his diving driving forces now to keep his wife and child safe. But I wonder if it'll pay off as anything satisfying. I doubt it, but I have to admit I do love Negan's one liners and he stays interesting to me as a character, probably because of how much I love Jeffrey Dean Morgan. I'm also excited to see Dasha Polanco and watch her character unfold as I loved her as diet and oranges new black.

[00:25:00] I hope Herschel has some opportunities to shine this season season. One thing I really enjoy about this show is seeing Glenn's son and imagine what Glenn's reactions would be to how his and Maggie's lives are playing out. It's fascinating to think about, especially as we've been doing the rewatch and my husband, I have such recent memories of his character. It led to some fun discussions. Excited to catch up on episodes of the pod in the next few days. Love hearing from you guys. Bye.

[00:25:29] Oh, well, thank you, Josie, for that. I'm glad you're finally getting caught up. And hopefully by the time you're hearing us reading your feedback, you are caught up with the podcast as well. And if you're a first time parent, don't worry. Eventually you will get to sleep again. And if you are not a first time parent, well, you knew what you were signing up. I've been there. I've got two of them myself. I was going to say you're a parent. So, you know, how it is. Sure. Uh, next piece of feedback comes from Becky Anderson.

[00:25:56] I didn't hate this episode. It had some cool moments, but there were some that weren't great. I did love the opening and seeing Maggie and Herschel's relationship mending for a minute. Anyway, I really appreciated the moments with Negan. I like how they explained the time that that's passed and how he is continuing to refuse to go back to the bad Negan. And the only reason he does is because they've threatened his family. I did not relish in seeing that persona on screen again, but at least there's a reason.

[00:26:24] What I didn't care for was the scenes with the different gangs coming together at the world's most insane farmer's market. It felt like the meetup scene from the 1979 film, the Warriors. There's definitely was a Warriors feel to it for sure and was equally as cheesy. I also didn't care for the scene at the bricks with the governor and her sidekick. Lucia love Dasha Polanco, but this character seems so over the top and that prove yourself scene just didn't do anything for me.

[00:26:53] As always set design was great. I love every shot we get of post apocalypse New York. Hopefully it gets better and these over the top characters develop into more interesting people. We'll see. I want to add how much I'm enjoying the two of you on the podcast. You have amazing chemistry and it's a lot of fun listening. Oh, I love that. That means a lot. Becky. Thank you. Thanks, Becky. Honestly, we hate each other behind the scenes. It is just it is a firewall. We do not talk. It is just Ben stays in his corner. I stay in my know.

[00:27:22] Thank you so much. That was great. And I got to say, hey, whenever I see these people from the New York gangs, I think of that old song like the freaks come out at night. The freaks come out at night. I don't know. It just it rides through my head every time I see them. But having said that, I, too, hope that they really start to shed some more light on these crazy like mustache twirling characters, because I think there's a lot of character to be explored within both New Babylon and the New York City area.

[00:27:52] And I hope that they give the show the opportunity to do that. Yeah, for sure. 100%. All right. Next up, we have a call an email from Colin Stillwell, and I don't I'm going to try my best, Colin. You are going for something here, and I hope I do you justice. So wish me luck. I'm a goddamn cat. And I wrote a line, Rick, in a city where walkers still roam. Maggie fights far away from home with Negan in tow through chaos.

[00:28:21] Yes, they go past and present refuse to disown. It's good to be back. I like the new Lucy, though. The teasers were misleading since it looked more like an explosion than a shock. Still pretty slick. Can't wait for the shenanigans old Croatia and the Neganator are going to get into one peeve as someone who grew up in the country around pastures and woods and cricks. I've never once heard the word brambles be spoken out loud. Of course, I know what the word is and I know what they are.

[00:28:51] But this isn't 1932 anymore, Maggie. It was so out of place and awkward. It made me feel itchy. Anyways, it's great to have you all cover in the Negan show. Can't wait for next Sunday. Peace. Colin from IA. That was amazing. Starting off with that poem. That's fantastic. I love the the lime Rick, the lime Rick indeed. I didn't know. So the first you know, I'm a I'm a goddamn cat made me think of Abed and community.

[00:29:20] Yes, that's where I went to that's where I went. And then the I wrote a lime Rick felt like Rick and Morty. So Colin did I nail both of those references because I take pride in my pop culture reference. I was raised on Mad Magazine and SNL the the I'm a goddamn. Yeah, my brain went to the same thing. That I'm a sexy cat. It was Abed's impression of Nick Cage 100% from an episode of community. And then you read it that way, too, which made it even. How do you not even even more?

[00:29:51] But thank you for that, Colin. That was great. Next up, we have another email. This one comes from Tom Tomara Gravenal. Hey, Ben and Alex. Thanks. OK, to be fair, I have watched this season one for the set. I rewatched. I have watched season one for the set design, and I love that Maggie has endured an extremely traumatized single mom. Has it? I'm sorry, has endured as an extremely traumatized single mom now dealing with a teenage boy. Her tenacity is infectious, obviously.

[00:30:21] And I'll also admit I fell asleep on my first watch. Been there. Don't worry. I've been there. However, my intention was evident when I realized there are a lot of villains and bad guys from other shows filling villains and bad guys on the show. And I'm here for it. Shallow. But here we go. So Negan has a new bat with a taser. I mean, it's cool if I'm seeing it right, even though I kind of was bracing for standard Negan totally imagining Christos meeting Lucille.

[00:30:50] Mm hmm. But he's got a new but he's got a new way. His voice is measured. He's not playing with people the same way. His presence has been requested, so he has a new role. He's paler than usual. More time in a cell. He certainly accepted that life again willingly. He has the backing of this crazy lady and a total nut job Croat. I wonder if he's thinking he's going to outsmart them giant brains instead of giant nuts. I love that line so much. Me too.

[00:31:19] That's that's a great line. Um, I did keep waiting for Kim coats to twirl his mustache and get in a wet again. Wacky race cars. Yep. That's a great reference as well. Uh, I can't wait to see his character development because he also looks insane. Manhattan is a giant Walker infested a state asylum for the apocalypse.

[00:31:40] I'm not completely sold, but I love this genre and it seems these days I'm all about sharing my thoughts with you lovely people instead of me being the crazy one and trying to make someone in my family watch this crazy shit with me. We will have might be stuck with me. Tam Perth, Australia. Um, happily stuck with you, Tam, like you have found family that yes. So to, to all of you leaving feedback, that's where I started. Okay. Right where you are leaving feedback. Next thing you know, I've got my own show.

[00:32:09] I'm doing this with Ben. So like, this is the coolest family I've ever been a part of and I have kids. So that's saying something. Sorry, that caught me off guard. That was that's great. No, but the, uh, giant brains instead of giant nuts.

[00:32:29] Um, I'm writing that down cause that's, um, Hey, if you listen to our coverage of episode one, you know, that's kind of where my brain is with Negan right now. It's, is, uh, the giant brain. It's at a giant nuts. Uh, but we're not done yet. We have one more piece of feedback and that of course is a voicemail from Steve Brown. Here we go. Let's play that now. Hello, Ben and Alex. This is Steve.

[00:32:56] And this is going to be for TWD DC season two, episode one power equals power. Oh, the statue of Liberty. I wonder if Negan is going to get to see it this time. I love it. Back in the New York groove. Hunting deer with rocks. Is that what he tried to throw at that deer? Okay. So they have Negan in a cell and he's eating cockroaches. And it just sounded like Negan said a year has passed. Wow. It's quite a jump. Maggie sure is a mama bear. That's for sure. Okay. So this is the Marshall from last season, right?

[00:33:26] He claimed he killed Negan and this governor. What are they trying to do with Maggie and her community? Bring them in. Oh, so they are part of this community and they have a treaty. Okay. Who is this woman who is just now told had this guy hanged for desertion? Yes. Failure to accept conscription is not the same as desertion though. I remember this kind of from last season. They think Negan has the charisma to bring all these groups together. Oh, they're mentioning Annie and Joshua.

[00:33:53] That's Negan's wife and son, right? Oh, and they've got them and they're bringing them to Manhattan. I think you guys mentioned this on the catch up or the recap season, right? Whether we would see Annie and Joshua or not. Oh, it's not Marshall anymore. It's Colonel. And he's trying to get Maggie to go with him to Manhattan. Oh, the Croats trying to tempt Negan with a new Lucille. Lucille too? Uh huh. And it looks like Negan's got his leather jacket and he's got his new Lucille. So, uh huh. This is Negan's back, I guess.

[00:34:23] They're similar to the warriors, right? This big meeting of all these gangs or groups. But no, no, they didn't have gladiator games in the warriors. Okay. How are they going to make Maggie prove that she's worth 20 soldiers? Ooh, they're going to make her fight a bunch of walkers alone, I guess. Oh, so it's Maggie and Ginny fighting together. Well, that was tense, but ended quickly the major with one shot. Haha. Here's Negan. That smile on Kim Coates' face just, just not, it just, uh, ooh, it makes me feel weird. And this Christos, I think he's going to get his head bashed in.

[00:34:52] Oh, what did they add to Lucille? Some sort of electric shock and now somebody's got a blame thrower. Uh, he just said power equals power. Title of the episode, mic drop. Well, it looks like Christos is at least being carried. Oh, and the hanged guy turned, obviously. Ooh, and Hirst was just through that knife like he meant it. All right. Good first episode. Let's go on to episode two. Haha. Thank you, of course, Steve. It's not a podcast like a podcast without a live steving from Steve Brown.

[00:35:21] It, I, I have dreamt in my life of several moments, none more so than being addressed by Steve Brown on a live steving as hello, Ben and Alex. I, I feel like I've made it. I feel like I can die a happy completed man. And thank you, Steve, for making that happen. Great feedback. As always, I adore your in the moment, uh, turns of phrase and never stop being you, you beautiful son of a gun.

[00:35:49] I, you, and you know what, like I, what else I noticed from like Steve's voicemail and a couple of the other pieces of feedback that we got is I love the fact that Kim Coates is recognized. Yeah. I don't know Kim from a hole in the ground, but I am in the minority in this world. And I love that because apparently I'm in for a treat and I can't wait. He is, he is such a, an amazing character actor that he's been in so many things that so

[00:36:17] many people don't realize he's been in. I've been rewatching, um, prison break and any of the 9,000 things that are on your to watch, right? We're not going to get in. Look, we're not going to get into what I should be watching instead of what I am watching. Okay. That's a whole nother podcast, but it's, uh, but Kim Coates appears in prison break in the fifth, in the, the last season of prison break. He is, he's an amazing character actor. I've had him on my Wilhelm podcast a number of times. So I've talked to him.

[00:36:47] I've spoken to him. He is incredibly personable. I, I just love the fact that he is recognized, not getting recognized that we are getting people addressing him as Kim Coates because they know who he is. That's awesome. I love that. I love that so much. That's really exciting. I will say one thing I've noticed in the feedback to those that are kind of on the fence. They're not sure if they're, if they're going to watch it, um, depending on what you're in

[00:37:15] it for, the thing that is giving me a lot of excitement about what I'm seeing is that I'm really enjoying a story told outside of the Negan and Maggie relationship. Honestly, their dynamic and their relationship with each other has been maybe 1% of the season thus far after two episodes. And I just, I like the story that they're building and I think it's worth giving it, you know, giving it a couple more. So hang, hang in with us.

[00:37:43] See, see how you feel after one or two more before you write it off. That's that's my only ask for you. Give it a little bit more. Yeah, no, I agree with that completely. Uh, but that being said, let's dive into episode two, uh, walking dead dead city season two, episode two, another shitty lesson. Uh, I did it last week, Alex, why don't you give us this, the plot summary for this week? Alrighty folks in this episode, Maggie warns the new Babylon. They're in a post-moderation about the dangers of their mission and the potential threat from

[00:38:13] the Croat. If they travel via ferry, despite her warnings, the Federation proceeds with their plan leading to a deadly ambush orchestrated by the Croats forces using methane bombs. Maggie and her son, Herschel are captured and imprisoned on the ferry, but managed to escape during the chaos. Meanwhile, Negan now aligned with the Croat and the Dama shows signs of his former self, but hesitates during the attack, allowing Maggie and Herschel to escape. This act of mercy leads to a brutal punishment from the Dama,

[00:38:42] who kills Negan's friend Victor the violinist to share a message. The episode ends with Maggie and Herschel reuniting, but tensions remain high as the battle for Manhattan intensifies. I want to start with just the opening shot of this episode. It was something, I don't know why it made me smile, but similar to episode one, how we got the,

[00:39:12] in the New York groove song playing with them coming in and cleaning out the streets. This episode starts on the mainland and it is an, it is a shot of a bird's nest in a corpse's head. Yep. Don't know why I enjoyed that as much as I did, but I did. I love that. It is the first note that I have of corpse with a bird's nest. I love that. Can I tell you my first note, Ben? Sure. So while watching the previously on, uh, the walking dead, dead city,

[00:39:40] they had mentioned and showed very explicitly the Croats saying that he had received Intel that they were gathering a group to come to the, uh, Island. And I, I thought to myself in that exact moment, how the hell did the Croat get that Intel? Who is his mole? Oh, obviously, obviously, duh. His moles Herschel. And I thought, I thought I was going to be captain know-it-all and I was going to be the smartest man alive because I was going to be able to reveal this week my theory.

[00:40:08] And no, they just led the breadcrumbs and pretty much told us in this episode. Oh, by the way, Herschel's the mole. And I'm so irritated because I really thought I caught something and they went and the entire episode, I was waiting for them to ruin it for me. And they kept dropping little hints that they were going to. And then bam, they just, they just, they just zoomed in on a piece of blue cloth and I died inside. So, okay. That was my first note was Herschel the mole. Yeah. I, I feel that so hard. Okay.

[00:40:37] You were in the same boat. I was in the same exact boat when the tire fire is lit and the smoke signal is going up, letting them know that they're on their way. And then Herschel comes out. I'm like, oh, hi mom. I was like, this is the signal. Like this is the opening the hand of the firefly that we talked about in episode one that we knew we said was going to come back into play.

[00:41:04] And it already has in the fact that Herschel is the one who revealed the tire. He's the one that lit the fire, let them know, notified them. They were on their way. Maggie sees the cloth burning in the flyer. And then by the end of the episode puts two and two together when she sees him using the same cloth to nurse that woman's wounds. And when that moment hit, I was in the same position. I was like, oh, I got a good one for this week. We're going to talk about this. I'm going to make this massive reveal.

[00:41:33] And then we see that and I'm like, damn it. Okay. Then here's my challenge to our listeners that write in. If you do leave feedback, this is for you. If you don't, you should this week. Since Ben and I knew essentially from the very beginning that Herschel was the turncoat. To those of you that didn't realize until the end or still don't know, what did you interpret of Herschel's actions and Herschel's experiences throughout this episode?

[00:42:00] Because I couldn't watch the rest of it without acknowledging that I believe that Herschel was the spy. Yeah. Everything after that, I was heavily overanalyzing. Well, I mean, and not to go too far ahead, but I mean, like I've looked at some of the I've glanced at some of the feedback we've already gotten for this episode. And there are one or two people who were like, I don't know what that cloth, like, I don't know what that cloth implied.

[00:42:29] So there really are people that didn't know and didn't pick up on it. And we don't want you to we the last thing we want is to make you feel stupid. Like, oh, gosh, no. Oh, you didn't figure this out because this is just because like Alex and I were so honed into overanalyzing everything. Everything when we watch, I'll make that 100 predictions and three of them will be correct. This was one of those 300 predictions I make on any given episode. So I'm not batting a thousand here, folks.

[00:42:57] I am usually very wrong, but I just I happen to be good this time. I'll take it. Yeah. And we're kind of hoping, like, as you're listening to this, you're kind of like coming to the same realization we did. Like, oh, so like, yes, Herschel, it's not they didn't come out and scream. Herschel is the one that did this.

[00:43:17] But there are so many clues to it laid out throughout this entire episode that not only is Herschel, the one that lit the tire fired, is the one that is notifying the Croat that, you know, these people are coming. He's he's giving them the warning, but there's that scene on the on the ferry as well, where he is just completely zoned out. He's got that Stanley Kubrick stare, that thousand yard stare.

[00:43:42] He just he is just grappling with everything inside of him and how all of his choices led to this exact moment. There is a part of me that kind of believes that he is this person, but he doesn't know he's brainwash, hypnotized, brainwash. Yes. So. All right.

[00:44:02] I mean, maybe we'll just get into that now, but the Herschel, I, I am really fascinated because what I saw in this episode was someone that was working for the Dama. But I also felt someone that was stricken with guilt by what I don't know. There was something about the way he was talking with Maggie once they made it out of the water. And he did the I love you. Like, I don't feel like he's manipulating Maggie.

[00:44:32] I feel like he's really having an internal struggle between what he's doing and what he wants for life. And I think if that's the case, it's an absolutely brilliant call by this team. And Herschel is the actor is absolutely executing it. Logan Kim is an he is a fantastic. Yeah, I think that's what's happening. And if so, he is channeling both sides of that coin expertly. And he's crushing it. I think I think you're right.

[00:45:00] I think he's definitely he definitely has guilt for what he did, because if he's not brainwashed, there's I think he is brainwashed, maybe not to the point of hypnotism, to the point where he doesn't realize he's doing these things. Right. But he he's doing these things because in his mind, it is showing love to the Dama in the sense that that's what she wants. And that's kind of what she's she's brainwashed him into.

[00:45:27] But at the same time, he also feels like doing these things in a way is protecting Maggie. Yeah, because by lighting that fire, by her finding the fire, by him coming out like he probably believes in his mind, like, OK, this means that she's not going to go now. Their plans are going to change. They they know that they they see them coming. So now she's going to stay home because this is what I wanted. I wanted her home. And then it doesn't work out that way because Maggie is a badass and punches the major in the face.

[00:45:58] Damn right. Gets locked up along with him and gets forcibly taken to New York City. So his plan kind of backfired. It does. And I think that's a lot of what you see at first in the boat in his Kubrick thousand yard stare is him realizing, like, oh, shit, I am now taking us into the belly of the beast. And everything I was trying to do was to make this not happen. And I think he's just a kid that's being manipulated on a couple of sides.

[00:46:27] The one question I have is and I think I know the answer, but I just want to double check with you. Do is there any part of you that believes that Herschel is doing this out of fear and not out of some level of obedience? Like she the Dama has threatened him that if he doesn't do what she asks, she's going to hurt people. Or is it more of a is it more carrot than stick from the Dama?

[00:46:56] What do you think is driving Herschel carrot or stick? That's a really good question, because I can see it going. I could see it going either way. Right. The fact that the Dama actually has Herschel's toe could lead could mean like, OK, like she forced him to do this and he's doing this out of fear. Right. But there's something there.

[00:47:22] There's there's so much more that could be revealed in that the toe could have, in essence, been a gift. Right. Or, you know, that'd be I like flowers, but no, for sure. Yeah. Could have been a gift. Yeah. There's there's souvenir shops with key chains. I mean, 100 percent, 100 percent. You're not wrong. But I mean, like it kind of leads me to something that I didn't even write down in my notes because I'm not thinking about it now. But the Dama is clearly the one that hypnotized Herschel or brainwashed Herschel into being this person. Yep.

[00:47:52] Had. But because of the fact that Negan doesn't know that he doesn't know the relationship of. Yes. Dama and Herschel. Yes. Dama and Herschel. And Herschel was the one that Negan was trying to give time to get off the ferry when he saw Herschel. But had had the Dama known it was Herschel he was trying to save. This could have played out completely differently. Holy shit.

[00:48:19] I am so happy that we are podcasting on this together because I had that same exact thought. If Negan knew enough to just say to the Dama, hey, hey, hey, Herschel was coming off the boat. I didn't want him getting blown up. Obviously, she'd have been like, oh, dip. Victor, play us another Bach. But we're getting ahead of ourself. Let me ask you, Ben. Sure.

[00:48:43] When it comes to Victor, at the beginning of this episode, there were two immediate roles that ran through my head because of how much exposition and how much spotlight they gave him. Is Victor the violinist a traitor or a martyr? When you notice what they were doing in the beginning, what did you think about the Victor character as it unfolded? I legit thought that there was a...

[00:49:10] I thought there was a legit friendship between Negan and Victor. I don't think... I think by the end, he becomes a victim. I don't think he's a martyr or a traitor. I was really worried he was a traitor, and I'm super happy he wasn't. I think he was just a victim, and he died because he was just a pawn. I mean, he's a low-level guy. I mean, we see him at the beginning of that episode.

[00:49:39] He says, like, I was sent here to do housekeeping. He was literally... He just came in to clean the cell that Negan was in. I have so many thoughts on Negan in this episode, starting with that cell. But to continue with the Victor conversation, Victor was just purely a victim of circumstance with everything.

[00:50:02] These lower-level people in the Dama and the Croats business, in their world, yeah, in their establishment, these people are expendable. Anybody is expendable. Even Negan, to this point, I feel like is expendable to the Dama.

[00:50:20] I don't know if the Croat is expendable to the Dama at this point, but I have my questions about his position, too, after this episode. I think we'll get there. But I do want to ask this question. So you are someone that knows music, likes music, etc. I'm a musician, yes.

[00:50:47] What did you think of Classical Composers 101, led by Victor, and the absolute immaculate layman's term explanation for what each composer's general vibe is? I thought it was great. I was blown away. As somebody who, no lie, still listens to jazz and classical music on vinyl, I still break that. I've actually been playing a lot of vinyl lately.

[00:51:15] I used to play one album a week. I've been playing, for some reason, I think it's just the fact that I can have the windows open and the air coming in. I've been playing, no lie, I've been playing an album a day. That's amazing. I just take an hour and I just play music on my turntable, and it's great. So as somebody who still enjoys that kind of music, I love the description.

[00:51:40] And one of my favorite parts of that entire scene was when he finally goes into Bach by the end of it. And it makes Negan look up. It finally breaks that tension that Negan has in himself. And he looks up and he's legitimately enjoying it, which we know he has in the past because we've seen him in episode one, Victor playing music outside of the cell. We know this has been going on for a while.

[00:52:07] But it's that whole adage of how music can calm the savage beast. Right. That is the moment that is happening right then and there, is Victor is playing Bach, and he's playing it so beautifully after explaining why he loves Bach so much that it helps Negan to enjoy it a little bit more, too. And it calms the storm that Negan has in himself in that moment.

[00:52:31] So what was, in your interpretation, the reason why Victor told him that story? Why did Victor share all of that with Negan? What was his goal? I think there's a connection with Negan. There's been a connection. I put it in the summary that they were friends for a reason, because I think there was a friendship that established there.

[00:52:56] I think with everything that is happening, I talked about it last week when we were talking about episode one and how this is nothing more than a facade that Negan is putting on for the sake of survival. Now, not just for himself, but for Annie and Joshua, because their lives are at threat now. This is all just a facade. But his friendship and conversations he has with Victor is one real thing that he has now in this world.

[00:53:26] And because everything else is fake. Everything else is just a front that he's putting on. But that friendship was real. Son of a bitch. So you nailed it. That's exactly what Victor was saying to him, was you get through the shitty times so that you can relish these moments. Two friends sharing a beautiful song and just enjoying the piece of the world that we still have together. That's exactly.

[00:53:53] And I think that's also what I love about this show is it is, again, it's showing, not telling. Fear of the Walking Dead would always have ended that whole exchange with Victor saying to him, so just get through the bad times and we can have good times to look forward to. But this show leaves you before that. It at least gives you the opportunity to interpret it yourself. Fantastic. And I don't think, and again, Negan considered Victor a friend, and I think that was absolutely reciprocal.

[00:54:23] I think Victor considered Negan a friend as well from all that time that they spent together. And to get back to your point of why did Victor give him that explanation to do that, when Victor came to that cell to clean it and saw that Negan was sitting there in solitary in a cell that he didn't have to be in anymore, he knew something was wrong. He knew that Negan was conflicted. So that was Victor's comfort to Negan. He was comforting his friend.

[00:54:54] I couldn't agree more. That's fantastic. And I love their damn dynamic together. Well, and that's what makes it so heartbreaking by the end when Victor is playing Bach yet again in front of Negan. Negan knows what's coming. We all know, and we all have to sit there and listen to this magical, majestic piece of art.

[00:55:19] I hope people appreciate just the sound of a violin, honest to goodness. It is one of my favorite string instruments of all time. Violin, viola, they are top-notch for me. And the guy playing Victor executes it exponentially. And just the juxtaposition, while we all know what's going to happen, we all know what's going to happen the second he's done playing. So intense. So intense.

[00:55:48] I mean, the Dama has that pen in her hand the entire time. So menacing. And you know from that moment that she's got that pen for a reason. For sure. Like, there's a reason that pen is in her hand. And it's just, ugh. We're getting ahead of ourselves, though, Ben. A lot of things happened before that. Look, we're going to. There's a lot of stuff. We're in a chop all over, aren't we? We are. And you know what? That's okay.

[00:56:15] Because I'm about to jump back to the mainland. There it is. With Maggie and the Commonwealth and the Major and the Governor and them talking about their plans. Because I realized something really, really crucial in this moment. Please. In that Maggie is telling New Babylon and the Governor that you have no idea what the Croat can do.

[00:56:41] You, if he, like, he is well aware of your plans. It made me realize, like, Maggie, you are right. New Babylon has no idea what's coming their way. But at the same time, you're wrong. Because you have no idea at this point that the Croat is just an underling. You still think the Croat is in charge. And he's not.

[00:57:07] So while you are correct in telling New Babylon how dangerous the Croat is, you have, you yourself have no idea how dangerous it actually is. Because you think the man that you think is in charge is nothing more than a lieutenant. And that is. And that just makes New Babylon even more wrong. So here's the thing about New Babylon.

[00:57:32] And to all the people that wrote in and commented about the mustache-twirling villains and the yada, yada, yada, here's where I am going to emphatically side with you. New Babylon is by far, overall, the dumbest group of leaders we have ever experienced in the Walking Dead universe.

[00:57:57] As far as leaders with a level of authority, power, charters, etc., they are some of the absolute worst military minds, some of the absolute worst planning individuals. Every single member of their team is dumber than the next. Pearly, Pearly is the smartest member of New Babylon. Let that sink into you, okay? They are a terrible organization.

[00:58:27] Go ahead. You're brimming to say something. I can't get over how dumb they are. No, you are absolutely right. And on your note of Pearly being the strongest one out of all of them, let's think about why that is. New Babylon has never been challenged. They're holding their authority because everything they've ever done to this point has worked. They've never been challenged before. Pearly has been challenged. Yes. He went in. Things didn't go as planned.

[00:58:56] He survived. He knows how the world works outside of those laws. But he is able. Believes that tariffs are a good idea. Like he still is drinking the Kool-Aid of insanity. He is. Pearly is the first of the New Babylonians to see the shades of gray. Yes. That is. Yes. Yes. Yes. Absolutely. Yes. They. Everybody else.

[00:59:24] They've only seen white and black and white. Yes. It's one way or the other. They've never seen those shades of gray. So Pearly is the one who, like you said, he's the smartest. He's the most. Adept. Open minded. Yes. Of. Okay. Yeah. That's great. I think. I always forget her name, but the annoying one, you know, the major. Yeah. She's so over the top. She is.

[00:59:54] So major Lucia. Yeah. Lucia. Lucia. She's, she's an idiot. She does not know what she has in front of her. She is so drunk on her own authority and all that jazz. I'll get into her more later, but I would like to throw out new Babylon might have the worst army uniforms I have ever seen in any TV show ever. Did you notice they all had the Canadian Mountie hat and like these really thick wool looking jackets.

[01:00:21] Like clearly you are part of a collective militia. Maybe that's not what you want to wear going into New York city. I don't know. It seemed like a bad idea to me. I mean, they, they look like revolutionary blue coats. They sure did. They sure did. Ugh. And I mean, and you know, look, I will say I was, again, this is jumping around a little bit because we talk about how stupid these people really are. Yep.

[01:00:49] And when it comes to them taking the ferry and going over and there are even still moments where like we've praised pearly a little bit about how open-minded he is, but he still kind of falls into it every once in a while. Like when telling Maggie, like, oh, this is why we're approaching for a ferry might not be the best idea, but this is why we're approaching from the bay side. Like that's not how that that's going to work. Yep. So he's still struggling with the shades of gray as well, but at least he's coming around. True.

[01:01:20] These other people were just completely stupid, like so much so that this is the first wave in their plans. This is the first wave to go over. You sent the governor in your first way. Thank you. Damn it, Ben. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. You do not send high ranking officials. So that's like her whole thing about like, oh no, we're sending milk. Like, no, no, no, you idiot. You send a scouting mission first. You have no idea what's ahead of you.

[01:01:49] You are about to ambush a completely isolated area. This is a terrible. You spent months planning this. Who did Sesame Street? Awful. The worst idea ever. This is one of the reasons why in the world of Star Trek, Riker never let Picard go on away missions. Nah, man. He was too busy playing the sax too. Who, Picard? No, Riker. Oh, I was going to say, Picard played the piccolo.

[01:02:18] Picard played a very different kind of sax. We are showing our nerdy side right now. But no, it is. But I mean, again, it's a good comparison. It's the reason why Riker never let Picard go on away missions. Yes. You never send the leader because look what happens. The governor got what she deserved and she's blown up on the front of that ferry. I mean, she lasted all of three episodes and even that he was never. Well, the finale of season one. Oh, that's true. All right.

[01:02:48] And then these two episodes, but two and a half. She was never properly. I mean, even this one was a half. So like two all day. She was never properly fleshed out. She was a caricature of a bad guy, mustache twirling, et cetera. Like I am. I feel bad for that actress that she didn't have an opportunity to be more than just cannon fodder at that point. Literal. We'll say that literal cannon fodder. Yeah. Because I don't know. There was something about the way that she played that character that I did want to see more.

[01:03:17] And it's a shame that she's done. And I wanted to see her have a little bit more. And I'm intrigued to see what new Babylon does from here. Yeah. While we're talking about that ferry and the ferry attack. You know, we. Oh, you mean. We. Go ahead. The Battle of Black Walker Bay. That's a great name for it. The Battle of Black Walker Bay.

[01:03:43] So we talked last week how this show still finds innovations and ways to find ways to use zombies. Ways to wow us. Interesting ways. Last week, we got the zombie battle bots. Yep. This week. We also had the quad zombie. In last season. Yeah. Absolutely. Um. This episode. Wow. We get zombies being used as mortar rounds.

[01:04:13] Zombie bombs. I. It is. The greatest. It might be my favorite invention in this universe of zombie stuff yet. Methane. Cool. Zombie bombs. Badass. In that moment watching this episode. When they're sending projectiles towards the ferry. I was like, oh shit. Like they're attacking them. And then you find out a couple scenes later that they're filling zombies with methane. Using plaster.

[01:04:41] Using plaster to seal them up. And then just shooting them at the boat. That is pardon my language. Fucking brilliant. You don't even need to pardon your language. Because that's the exact. In fact, Miriam Webster's actually under the phrase fucking brilliant has that zombie bomb. As it has this scene listed. Yeah. A hundred percent. That was the coolest thing I've ever seen. So.

[01:05:08] So the last of us gave us Winterfell, but with, you know, semi-automatic guns. Now the walking dead has given us Blackwater Bay, but with exploding Zeds. It is so happy that this moment exists. It is so. It was so fun to watch. Like when I saw that scene, I was like, what? That's amazing. I was so excited to see that. Even if they're attacking the ferry.

[01:05:38] I'm like, I was so excited to see that that's what they were doing. Honestly, both sides suck. So like, as long as Maggie and Negan stay fine, I'm good. Everyone else can die for all I care. But no, I concur with you entirely. And I got to be honest with you. It points out Negan's ability in this world to excel and to exceed and to do things well. And let's talk about the Walker meat story. So I have that too.

[01:06:07] The sanctuary dinner. Let's talk about the sanctuary dinner. So to those of you who don't remember, I don't know how you couldn't. A group of raiders came to the sanctuary early in Negan's campaign. And he allegedly feigned that he was going to surrender and cook them a massive feast. But instead of serving them venison, he served them Walker meat, which ended up poisoning and killing all of them, thus showing his might.

[01:06:34] And Ben, I got to ask you, is this the first time that they have confirmed that eating straight up Walker meat, even cooked, will infect you and kill you? I don't know if it necessarily confirms that it will infect you. Like, I don't think because I don't think they acted. I don't think they said that it will turn you. I think it just like it makes you violently. It makes you sick. It makes you violently ill, which could be either one.

[01:07:03] They they died from eating the infected meat or it made them so violently ill that it made them vulnerable that they could take them out. That makes perfect sense. So perfect sense. I don't think it's really explained which one of them it is, but it does give us a lot of insight to the earlier days of the sanctuary. For sure. Because they were susceptible to raiders.

[01:07:25] We get a little bit of the origin of the sanctuary at that point in that story for the other Croat in that, you know, they were similar to just like everyone else. Susceptible. Just like, yeah. God, for the life of me, the cities are Alexandria. Alexandria. Thank you. Yes. I was so stuck on figuring out Alexandria that I didn't even get to Hilltop. You didn't even get to Oceanside. Or Oceanside.

[01:07:53] But like they were just another small time place to until a an idea set them apart and made them stand out. And, you know, it just goes to show to that, you know, there's been a lot of comparisons to Nick and Nick, Nick, Rick and Negan in the past that, you know, had a path diverged a different way. Rick would have just become another Negan. Yep.

[01:08:17] And this kind of further influences that, that the sanctuary was probably just another place like Alexandria or Hilltop until it came to a point where they had to defend themselves. And they did it. And then they became something different. And to affirm what we've said before, Negan still went across the line many times as the leader of the saviors.

[01:08:41] But you see and we see like how they can be forced into their aggressive stance because of those raiders in that moment. That's a great point. But it also kind of and this was a point I was I really wanted to make about Negan in this episode. I said it a lot last week that I was kind of leaning more towards how I believe this is all just a facade. This is an act that Negan is putting on the Negan has Negan is not back.

[01:09:10] He is pretending to be back for the sake of appearances. And this dinner story kind of leads me even more. I'm actually more convinced this week that that is the truth. I don't think the real Negan is back. I think this is still just an act. I think he is doing everything he can to prevent himself from going back to his old ways.

[01:09:37] There's that moment outside of the church before they're going in where a walker is coming up and I have it written down. The crew, the crow actually says to him, Lucille must be thirsty. Negan won't even kill a zombie in that moment. Yep. He just walks past it. He walks inside. Any little bit of aggression. Negan will lead Negan closer to becoming who he was. And he doesn't want it.

[01:10:06] No, but. But. Go ahead. Read your butt. It's fine. Here's the thing. They are laying some breadcrumbs for us to get there. And I am so happy you brought this up, Ben, because I was going to introduce Negan's descent a meter, which is a meter. I'm going to gauge as Negan slowly but surely descends into evil Negan right now. He's at about 15 to 20 percent. All right.

[01:10:36] He still hates the Croat and the Dama, but did have a wee twinkle in his eye as he recalled his Aria moment when he walker afraid those jerks to try to take his sanctuary. And he did enjoy seeing the explosion. So I think after enough time, after enough slights by the opposition, he might fall into that. My biggest fear is that we're going to end season two with Annie watching him brutally murder the Croat with Lucille and her being like, what the fuck?

[01:11:05] Like the Morgan and Rick at the end of season five in Alexandria moment. Like Negan's going to finally slip into madness the moment he's reunited with Annie. End of season. That's my fear. I don't know. I don't know. I'm I'm I'm feeling and it's fine because I like the fact that we have different points of view on this because as we progress forward, we're going to see where which way we're we're leaning towards. I don't know because I feel like you're right.

[01:11:33] There definitely was like a little glimpse of, yeah, I was a badass when he talked about that dinner with the Croat. You know, and but again, and yes, there was a little bit of enjoyment as he saw the explosions happening to the ferry and, you know, the the mines that were set in the water that were having effect and him watching it. But he comes to that wake up call when he sees Herschel. He does.

[01:12:03] It draws him back. It pulls him out of it. The old Negan could have never been pulled out of going the Negan way there. He has escapes now like he has things that when he's about to go down, whatever that meter is that you called it, the centimeter, the centimeter. Thank you.

[01:12:29] Old Negan would have just kept plummeting down the centimeter until he hit old Negan. But now there are things that pull him back. Seeing Herschel on the boat. Pulled him out and it wasn't because of the connection to the Dharma. He doesn't know about that. True. It's because of his connection to Maggie.

[01:12:54] Now, his connection to Maggie is what is why seeing Herschel pulled him out. OK, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. I 1000% agree. I do. Let me ask you a question. As someone that's been doing these type of television rewatch podcasts for a number of years, does watching the scenes from next week ever gauge what you're going to say about this week? No. OK. All right.

[01:13:21] Because quite honestly, I don't even remember what they are. OK. All right. Good for you. I wish I could not. No. So. All right. All right. So real quick to rewind to the the Battle of Black Walker Bay. Can I give you a nitpick moment? I had. Yeah, of course. All right. So I don't typically nitpick science and I'm not here. But at the buoys, I'm no linguist.

[01:13:47] But either the boom poem was written in English and therefore the crude translation would have occurred turning into Croatian. Or it's a Croatian saying that somehow crudely translates into a perfect rhyming poem. I the the Croat was telling Negan his boom poem. He said, forgive the crude interpretation. But then he rattled off a perfectly rhyming English poem. So how how could there be a crude interpretation when it was flawless? I don't know. It's just I wanted to nitpick that.

[01:14:16] It bugged me the entire time. I I'm I'm glad you nitpicked it because I didn't pick up on any of it at all. OK, I have an English major of a mother, so I can't I can't help it. No, that's that's totally fair. I did not pick up on that at all. All right, then let's see about this. How do we feel about the Benjamin Pierce capturing by the Dama and crew and and Negan having a new a new Eugene, essentially?

[01:14:45] What do we think is going to happen there? OK, us seeing this this scene play out leads me to a massive, massive question. Yes, that we I can't even ask you because we don't know the answer yet. That question is who the fuck is the Dama? Because why does he know her? There are two things that happen in this scene.

[01:15:15] That make me think she was somebody substantial. She was somebody like maybe she was a celebrity who just went crazy. Maybe she was a performer because one Benjamin recognized her. Yep. He is a historian. He has been going through documents, so he's probably going through books, entertainment magazines or magazine, whatever. He is going through published things from the past. He has seen her face.

[01:15:45] Yes. So she is a public figure of some kind to she knew Bach when Victor played it. She knew it by ear. That's a great call. She knew Bach by ear. And I picked up on that as well. Like, damn, if I didn't have subtitles, I may have not known exactly what that was. Yep. She knew that what Victor played was Bach, which means she is like she's intelligent.

[01:16:15] She is. She's cultured. That's the word I'm thinking. I mean, I think she's always given that off. And then the entire Saturn story, like Greek mythology. Yeah. I have a soft spot for people to get that. Or was that Roman? I always forget Saturn. Saturn's Roman, right? I think it's Roman. Yeah. I think so. Okay. So I would wonder as well, like, is she a Catherine O'Hare, Aubrey Plaza type? Like, who is the Dama in reality? I can't wait to find out. I hope we're going to find out.

[01:16:44] But what I can tell you is she's crazy and kind of an idiot. And can I explain to you why I think she's kind of an idiot? Okay. So Negan has one friend, one thing on the entire island he cares about enough to admit he screwed up and why. And what does the Dama do? Instantly throw Victor away. He would have been so much more useful as a prisoner and she could have just tortured him whenever she needed to get Negan back in line or motivated.

[01:17:10] And before anyone judges me, I am podcasting with the man that told Joel to leave no survivors, which I also agreed with. That's right. I am going to rebut your comment, though. Please do. Your thought process here. Please. Victor was not her only chip. Don't forget. Annie and Joshua are on their way to the island. Victor was expendable. She still has something to hold over.

[01:17:38] Without Victor, she still has something even bigger to hold over Negan. You know what? Thank you. Because I was really casting some shade on the Dama, but you're absolutely right. I was the idiot there because she still has collateral on the way. Much better collateral. And this was one to get him in line before she ever has to threaten that one. Yeah. Great call.

[01:17:59] And to be completely honest with you, I don't think there is a part of me that believes this whole Annie and Joshua thing is just a lie to keep Negan in check. They might not actually ever be coming to the island. Oh, I've danced with that idea, but it's way too walking dead. That's too convenient. They're going to come. They're going to come. We'll see. We will see. We will see.

[01:18:28] But at the same time, from a storytelling perspective, from a storytelling perspective by the Walking Dead universe, I think they also wanted the Dama to kill Victor because if they didn't, we were going to start really siding with Team New York over Team New Babylon because of how much New Babylon sucks. We haven't seen the Dama be cruel per se other than the toe in the box.

[01:18:55] But we kind of needed to see her be ruthless and kill someone out of spite. We needed to see her capable of that level up to understand, no, no matter how much you like Negan or whatever is going on or how much you hate New Babylon, you also can't root for the Dama because she's just as ruthless and just as evil, but with a different end goal in sight.

[01:19:19] But we not only did we as viewers need to see that, like you said, Negan needed to see that, too. Negan has not seen the Dama get her hands dirty. So true. This is a great point. This is the first time he's seeing it for himself, because up until this point, she's been nothing but a voice. That's amazing. But now she has done the dirty work herself without any hesitation.

[01:19:44] So Negan, from the Dama's point of view, she needed to show Negan, you don't know who you're messing with. I'm not anybody to toy with. And she made that point crystal clear. Now, here's my question to you. Okay. Since we've been asking each other these questions. I love it. In that moment.

[01:20:09] The most interesting person to watch throughout this entire sequence is the Croat. Sure is. Because it is tough to gauge his reaction to all of this so much so that even in the end, when she when the Dama kisses his head. It makes you think, is he scared of her? Or did he was he the one that told the Dama Negan hesitated?

[01:20:38] Yes, to both. Okay. So the Croat in my my my interpretation and only my amateur sleuthing interpretation is that the Croat is currying favor to the Dama, which is why he is her little snitch. I think he is infatuated both with her as a person and as an intellectual and as a power source. And he sees Negan as both a means to an end and a threat to the Croats ultimate goal.

[01:21:07] So while he is cool with selling out Negan, he also knows that the Dama just put him on blast for selling out Negan and that Negan is going to come for him. And Negan is probably better at it than the Croat. So like he made a play and it worked, but then she sold him out immediately on that play. And he's like, oh, shit, I guess I'm in the game now. And that's that's fascinating to me.

[01:21:37] She she the Dama. I don't know what her end game is, what her goal is or what she's playing at, but I am here to watch it. I love her. She is diabolical. And where new Babylon is mustache twirling. I feel like the Dama is playing real like 3D chess. She's she's good. She she has proven this episode alone that she is so much more intelligent and so much more frightening.

[01:22:05] Oh, she's ever terrifying. And again, this isn't a point just for the viewers. This is a point for the people there, too. Negan just got shown that she is so much more frightening than she has ever. Because I think I think going to my point of how Negan has been putting on a facade and pretending to be the Negan that he was before for the sake of appearances. I think the Dama is on to that. And this is the point that the Dama needed to make.

[01:22:34] Like, there's no pretending here. You are going to be who you are. I believe that was the purpose of the analogy of the Saturn painting and the story of Saturn always knowing that the next of kin was going to be the one that he had to look out for. And she was telling Negan, like, I'm prepared to eat you at any given moment. Well, I I'm glad you brought up the painting again. Hell yeah. Because go on.

[01:23:03] I see that a little differently as well. Please. I see that as foreshadowing, but to kind of recap that story, it was a story of how Saturn was told that one of his kids would betray him. So in order to go against that, Saturn devoured his children so that none of them could ever turn on him until one of his children. I believe it was Neptune forced him to eat a stone.

[01:23:32] I think it was killed him. It was Jupiter. You're right. It was Jupiter. Yeah. Jupiter forced him to eat a stone thinking it was his child, which in essence killed him. Yep. I think. This whole that whole analogy is what is going to play out. She is Saturn. Negan is Jupiter. He's going to find that stone.

[01:24:00] And it's going to it's going to end her reign. I agree. I agree that. Yes. As far as storytelling and telegraphing goes, that is exactly what is going to happen and how we get there. Shit. You get three. I have no idea that you get three seasons out of that easily because the dom is so, so good. But I can't wait to see. I have some questions about the new Babylon folks. If we can give it for a hot second. Sure. I would like to talk about Ginny for a hot second.

[01:24:30] You mean not talking again, Ginny? So here's I'm so happy you said that. Okay. I would like to put a challenge out to there to the people with more time on their hands and less less ambivalence. But who will it take longer to get to 500 words spoken? Ginny or Michonne? Because I think they're going to be in a dead heat to get all the way to 500 whole entire words.

[01:24:56] Ginny isn't saying shit, but her on-screen leveling up of abilities has been delightful. Last year, all she was doing was riding on coolers across dead infested waters and popping up in places. But now here she is killing walkers last week. She's letting people out of their constraints. Like Ginny's kind of badass and I'm here for it. And I'm excited for what happens next.

[01:25:24] What is what do you think Ginny's modus operandi is? What do you think her ultimate goal is? She wants some answers from Negan. I think that she knows her dad was a piece of shit, but she needs Negan to confirm that that's why what happened happened for her to forgive him. I think she's looking to forgive him, but she needs to hear the story from him.

[01:25:50] I have no reason to think that other than an amateur bachelor's degree in psychology. But I think I think more than I got. Right. I think she wants to believe that Negan had a reason and that she knows her dad sucked. I. Look, nobody tells the truth harder than children. Correct. And granted, she's not a child anymore. She's a she's a teenager now. Very correct. Yes. But she was with him for a good amount of time.

[01:26:19] And I think she spent enough time with Negan to see the real Negan. A man with a code. Exactly. So I'm of the belief that she's not going to kill Negan. This is not a vengeance. Absolutely. I don't see that at all. Not even a little bit. This is a rescue mission for her. She knows that he's in trouble. She knows that he's in a position he should not be in.

[01:26:45] And she thinks just the same way that he took her in. She wants to rescue him. Yes. This is a payback mission, but in the best of ways. I could not agree. I think maybe they're trying to soft pedal us the idea that, you know, she's coming after some. But that's a red herring. That's not real. She she's here. She's still team Negan. There's no doubt in my mind. And I cannot wait to see what she's going to do next. I don't know.

[01:27:13] Well, I think it's going to be another breaking point for Negan when he realizes that she's there because he wanted he he had Maggie promised that she would be taken care of. It's it's one thing. He's going to be so pissed. You're right. It's one thing to see Herschel on the boat. If he saw Ginny through that, this it's game over for. Oh, my God. I never thought for a second about how pissed off he's going to be seeing Ginny back in New York. Well, I don't know. And I think it's going to be.

[01:27:44] If he saw Ginny on the ferry rather than Herschel, he wouldn't have been pissed. He would have been worried, terrified. And again, why would have been he's pissed at Maggie? It would have been game over. Yeah, it would have been game over for Negan at that point. For sure. So he's kind of lucky that it was Herschel that he saw and not Ginny. But the moment he sees Ginny on the island, it's going to be I think it's going to be a moment of relief to knowing she's alive. Yep.

[01:28:12] Immediately turned into anger for sure, because she should not be there. That's amazing. That that that's such a great call. Yes. I couldn't agree more with you. And I think we're definitely going to get it this season. Yeah, we're going to get it next week, actually. Like we're we're we're 100 percent. I so here's do you did you watch next time? You don't I did. I watched it. So it does.

[01:28:37] They are setting up a head to head with Negan and and Maggie or that team crossing over like Negan's playing some double agent stuff. I don't know. But they're setting up potentially a meetup. We're only in episode three out of eight. I've thoroughly, thoroughly been enjoyed separate Maggie and Negan storylines.

[01:29:00] I think that has really helped season two separate itself and differentiate itself and make itself more than just the Negan and Maggie story. I'm really enjoying their separate storylines now, and I don't really want them to interact yet. What about you? So here's the thing that I think how this season is going to play out.

[01:29:25] OK, and the way this episode ended with the whole Victor scene kind of is what leads me in this direction. Season one was all about Maggie needing Negan's help so that she could rescue Herschel. Season two is now Negan knows how in much in deep shit he's in. He needs Maggie's help.

[01:29:53] He needs Maggie's help to help get him out of this situation, because let's not forget. He did not volunteer to do this. He was forced into this through capture. Yeah. So he is, in essence, still a captive. He is a free roaming captive, but he is still a captive nonetheless.

[01:30:20] I think it's going to come down to he's going to ask Maggie for help. I think that that's an idea, and I think that's one direction. Clearly not the direction you believe this season is going to go. Yeah, I don't know if it's what I believe or what I want, but I think Negan's going to slip back into full Neganery.

[01:30:48] And I think he is slowly going to find ways to enjoy being himself. I think the new Babylon world is going to give him reasons to be pissed off at them and enjoy himself. And I think the season ends with him having to confront that he has slipped too far into his old ways when one of his morality meters, whether it be Maggie or Annie or both shows up.

[01:31:16] That's my guess that Negan and Maggie, though, could be on a collision course for next week, maybe don't interact until the season finale. Absolutely. I, again, I could see it going either way. For sure. I don't think I don't foresee Negan falling back into his old ways.

[01:31:38] I think that the writers and producers have taken so many steps to work Negan towards a redemption. True. That for him to slip back completely into the old Negan just completely undoes all of it. I don't think they would allow that to happen. I think I think you're right.

[01:32:02] I think Negan, I think Annie and Josh have completely changed Negan. He's gone through enough. Negan has realized the person that he knows who he was. And I legitimately, I could be completely wrong. I think Negan doesn't want to be that person ever again and hates the fact when he slips back again. It's one of the reasons why he sat in solitary in the cell that he did not have to be in anymore.

[01:32:31] He's conflicted. I don't I could see him maybe taking a couple steps backwards, but I don't see him ever going back to the old Negan completely. So this is where I think it depends on the kind of storytelling they're willing to tell. And it goes back a little bit to what Jason Kabassi said when we were talking about the show, I think in last episode.

[01:32:57] And that is like there are pieces of Negan that you just you cannot necessarily excuse. And I think while Jeffrey Dean Morgan wants Negan to be a hero, I think it's a more compelling story point if they make Negan susceptible.

[01:33:19] Like if they make it that he's always having to tampon down the dragon, that he's one of those people that is 80 percent more willing to show up the dragon and that his struggle is tamponing down the dragon when he can be seduced to go to that side. I just I don't know. We'll see what happens with the season. I just I think that's a more compelling story to follow. What do you think? No, I could see it go again. I could see it going either way.

[01:33:46] And I think regardless of which way it goes, it's going to be, as you said, a compelling story. I can't wait. I cannot wait to see what happens. I get more excited the more. I'm so glad that I brought you on to do these discussions with me to have nothing against the guest hosts that I had on last season, because we're definitely going to have starting next week. Actually, we're going to start bringing on guest people so excited to talk these conversations with us.

[01:34:10] But to have somebody who's steady with me and cover this entire season and take the whole journey with me. Like, I'm so glad I brought you on for this one because you're just a great you've you've totally found your groove as a great podcaster. But like the fact that like having these discussions one on one every week, even in just the second episode, like I'm I'm already so much more into this show than I ever was in the first time. Season. And I was into it for a season.

[01:34:38] I'm so happy you said that, because that leads me to one of my other investigatory questions for you, which is as someone who's probably watched a lot more Walking Dead than I have. I lasted like two and a half seasons of fear, and then I knew it was. I made it a little further, but I didn't finish. I never watched World Beyond. I didn't even watch Tales, but. I've watched everything since the end of Walking Dead proper.

[01:35:04] Is this setting up to be one of the most complete spinoffs of the Walking Dead unit? Like, I just I feel like this is a really well crafted show that uses the past but doesn't rely on it anymore. And it's a good self-contained story now. And it's good. It is. And I feel like we talked a little bit about this during the recap going into going into this season.

[01:35:33] This show, while yes, Maggie and Negan are the two characters. They're the two main characters, the spotlights of this show. This show feels like the only one out of all of them that could exist without them. Yes. One hundred percent. Yes. You could get rid of Maggie and Negan, and I would still follow Dama versus New Babylon versus the rest of New York City. Or just survival in New York.

[01:36:02] Yes. It's created a compelling enough set piece that I understand the limitations and I understand how that story could go. And I'd watch that. That's good survival television there. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. One hundred percent. The only thing I'm missing from season one that we haven't gotten in season two yet is zip lines over the city skyline. It's a great point. That's great. We haven't had any really cool transportation methodologies yet.

[01:36:31] And I think once you get cars, everyone just gets lazy. And that's just that's not cool. But we're also in a completely different section of the city this in this season than we were in season one. True. So, I mean, we know that all these different gangs are coming together, which we didn't see any of them this episode. No Kim Coates this episode. No Christos, none of these rival gangs. We got the gift through the picture. Right.

[01:37:00] But that was barely just exposition. That was really just the mention of them. So I'm really curious as to when they're going to start bringing those people back into this. But Manhattan is so is so large of a landscape that. Each season is taking place in a different section of the city, and we've still never left the city. Right.

[01:37:25] And that's again, it's got legs like a ZZ Top song to go on forever. Yeah, not forever, but exponential. I mean, it has the possibility and I love it. I'm here for it. Yeah, yeah, completely. I'm so I know it's not everybody's cup of tea, but I'm so into it. I'm so into it. I watched worse people. I watched both seasons of Iron Fist. Okay. I you know, it's funny that you brought up fear, too, because I did.

[01:37:55] I watched I watched every season of The Walking Dead, and I enjoyed it for the most part. I did not watch World Beyond with the one with the kids. I didn't. I haven't watched that one. I didn't watch season two of Daryl Dixon. Nothing against Norman Reedus. I think he's great. I love the character of Daryl. It doesn't do it for me in France. Just yeah. And the religiosity and the savior thing. I went to 13 years of Catholic school. I'm good on that.

[01:38:24] Yeah, exactly. The Ones Who Live, I thought was great. It was a nice wrap up. Awesome. But self-contained as hell. Exactly. It was a it was a one and done kind of deal. Perfect. Fear the Walking Dead. I got as far as the episode where John Dory died. Well documented on these networks, for sure. Yes. I've said it a number of times when they killed off John Dory. I was like, well, I'm done. Yep. Because he was the only reason I was still watching. I didn't. Yeah. And I lived up to it.

[01:38:53] I lived up to it. I did not watch one second past John Dory's death. God love you. I was done. But I'm really, really digging this one. And it to me, it has kind of put new breath into this universe. Yes. They have been again. Again, I haven't really watched Daryl Dixon. So but this has felt much more innovative and much more interested in expanding the lore of Walking Dead.

[01:39:22] Now, granted, Daryl Dixon talks more about the variants. And I am a little disappointed that we don't have more variant walkers in this version of Dead City. But hopefully that will come with time. Hey, we got the we got the what was it? The four armed or the four? We did. We got the the mutated quad zombie. Quad zombie. That was it. Yeah. But, you know, I want the climbers. I want the rocks that bang through the glass. I want the guys that run. I want some running clicker, you know, style zombies. That would be great. Just a little bit. Come on.

[01:39:52] Just level up a little bit. It's been 15 years. I want to make a quick note, too. I was looking this up as we were talking just because it was purely curious. But Logan Schmucker, who is the actor that played Victor, is a legit New York City violinist. Like he out. He was actually playing everything that we heard in the episode. I would hope so. I would hope. And I'm glad to hear that he was. He looked the part for sure. He is a classically trained violinist based in New York.

[01:40:21] So he could have been playing a version of himself. Very possible. Very, very possible. I don't have a lot of notes left. I have one more note. Go for it. Which is the behind the episode featurettes. Folks, I just want to know, why are you selling me on Navarez? Why are you making me enjoy this actress? What kind of story arc are you setting her up for? Okay. They praised the Croat and the Doma, too. But they didn't try to make us love them.

[01:40:51] So I'm on the AMC. I see that you're building something. This character that everyone is talking about, this actress, Orange is the New Black, which I didn't watch. And I guess she's amazing. So I see you. I haven't liked her so far. You're going to make me love her. And I'm going to hate you for it. But it's going to happen. I think she's going to come around kind of like Pearly. I think she's going to have to. Because otherwise, it's going to cost her her life.

[01:41:17] There's no reason that they're showing us how funny and adorable the actress is without selling us on her. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. But I mean, look. Come on to you. Dasha is a great actress. I watched Orange is the New Black. She was in The Heights, which she was fantastic. And that as well. I like her as an actress. It's been tough for me to watch her in this role because I hate this character. Oh, she's a really bad character.

[01:41:43] I do like the gold tooth, which was her idea, which I thought was fantastic. But I didn't even notice it until the behind the scenes feature. I noticed it during the episode. And I literally had the thought to myself like, oh, that's a good character choice. I like that. No, that fits her very well. And then during the after the show and they're like, yeah, I said I needed the gold tooth. I was like, holy shit. You do get it. I love you even more now. Damn it. You're going to be a good character by the end of the season, aren't you? Son of a gun. I just know it.

[01:42:09] Look, we may come around on her just the same way because I've come around on Pearly. I think he's a simp, man. I think he's like he's got good intentions, but he's just a bitch. Like, Pearly, get out of here, man. He's so boring. All right. He doesn't do it for me. That's like he's not a bad guy. He's not a bad guy. He's just boring. The only two notes I have left are we kind of made mention of it earlier.

[01:42:38] But by the end of the episode, Maggie comes to realize that Herschel is the one that set the tire fire because she sees the same cloth that was burning in the fire, which is most likely what he used to light the fire. The accelerant. Sure. We see him using the same cloth to bandage the woman at the end. So the the the the hugging at the end is not so much to me a I have my son back.

[01:43:08] It's more of a I might have lost my son. It's a what the hell is about to happen? Like, yeah, what what is what is going on? My entire world has now been turned upside down in just in a millisecond instant. I felt so bad for Maggie and I thought Lauren Cohen did a absolutely phenomenal job of selling that heartbreak and that that that tear. Amazing.

[01:43:34] Who in the end has more of a reason to take out the Dama at this point? Is it Negan who is keeping who is under the belief that. She has Annie and Joshua. And is using them against him. Or is it Maggie?

[01:43:59] Who she brainwashed Maggie son right now in this exact time as the chess pieces land? It's 100 percent Maggie because the Dama still has the piggy that went to the market. And whereas, you know, Annie and Joshua, we don't know where they are in their travels. We haven't seen them yet, but, you know, damn sure she's got her tentacles inside of Herschel. So Maggie's got more of a reason. Let's see what happens with Annie and Joshua.

[01:44:29] And we'll see what that drives Negan to do. Yeah. Again, could just be a could just be a play. Could be. And they're not actually on their way at all. And the final note I have before you wrap everything up is it looks like we talked about this last week, but we're we're heading into Central Park, folks. I can't wait, Ben.

[01:44:52] I, I, though I've lived on the East Coast my entire life and I live, what, six hours away from New York City. I have never been inside of Central Park. I've been to Broadway, but I've never been. And I'm going to take my kids there, but I cannot wait to see it in a Walker infested, overgrown world. This is going to be so much fun. Yeah. In that moment at the end of the episode where she where Maggie was like, we can go in there. It's overgrown. We can. We've got places to hide.

[01:45:22] You know, we could spend the night in there. I'm like, oh, oh, dear. You have no idea what you're getting into. So many Children of the Corn references just ran right through my head. But like, oh, my gosh, I cannot wait. It's going to be so much fun. Yeah. Like you have you have no idea. What a good set piece. Any final notes before we wrap up anything on this discussion of the episode? That's it for me. I loved it. I thought it was a great episode. I thought it set up perfectly the last three quarters of the season.

[01:45:51] Bring on some more. I am 100 percent right there with you. Nice. All right. That's our show. Episode 644. Thank you to everybody for listening, for the feedback, all of all of that fun stuff.

[01:46:22] Next episode will be feedback for The Last of Us. Season two, episode five. Feel her love. I was supposed to be on that episode. But unfortunately, you know, as we as I mentioned, we're recording this on a Tuesday. We usually record on a Monday. My Monday's my Monday was unavailable this week. But, you know, it all it all worked out. We're still getting the podcast out on time. And that's all that matters to me. Darn tootin'.

[01:46:48] So if you want to write in or leave us a voice message about the episode, the next episode, which is or no, about this episode we just discussed. Sorry. Season two, episode two of Dead City. You can find all of our contact information at podcastica.com. And while you're there, please check out our other podcasts, including Murder Magnets, a Poker Face podcast, episodes one and two up now, as well as the Star Wars TV cast wrapping

[01:47:16] up and or arguably the best show in the Star Wars television universe. But you be the judge. Listen to the show and find out. I still haven't started and or. I have not either, dude. I am waiting until there's a lull in my life. It's baseball season. Like I recap every night. Like, yeah, you have a lot going on. And or when I have the time to watch and I'm going to love it. But I'm not there right now. Yeah.

[01:47:43] I kind of want to in addition to all the podcastica stuff, too, I kind of we haven't done this yet this season, but I want to do it now. I kind of want us to plug our own stuff at the same time, because as you said, you've been podcasting. It's Philly season right now. So you've been podcasting on that. So tell people about that as well. All right, folks. Thanks, Ben. Yes, I am one of the co-hosts of the Philadelphia Phillies podcast called the Quit Chasing podcast.

[01:48:11] We are a little irreverent, a little cheeky and always unqualified. We are the absurdist take on Philadelphia Phillies baseball. We are going to recap the week that was as well as share with you any and all of our thoughts in between. You can find us wherever you find podcasts, including YouTube. Yeah. And you do a little after hour show with that as well that I'm going to be joining you guys on in a couple of weeks. And we're going to be talking music, which I'm excited for. Darn tootin'. Yes. So if you're not. I have to put that list together.

[01:48:41] I've done the homework, Ben. I'm ready. I just have to do mine. But no, if you're not a big Phillies fan, that's okay. We do tackle things on our After Dark episodes, whether they be music or Pitch Perfect or Taylor Swift albums, whatever really tickles our fancy any given week. Yeah. Yeah. I'm looking forward to coming on and talking with you guys, especially when it comes to like music and favorite albums and things like that. But in addition to that, obviously, my Willhound podcast is going to be launching.

[01:49:10] It's going to be relaunching in the upcoming weeks. I've mentioned having Kim Coates on before, as well as panels that I've done like Ross Marquand. So you'll be able to find all of that kind of stuff. We're gearing up for a new show season with the show that I'm working for. So I'm going to have a ton of new audio panels that I'm hosting over the course of the year, plus new interviews with people coming on top five episodes like Alex has been on helping me do some of those as well. So that's going to be relaunching relatively soon. You can find that.

[01:49:37] And then Kristen and I are also going to be relaunching the revisited podcast. It's going to be a new name. And we're not actually it's the first I'm actually making this public, but we're actually not going to be part of the podcasting network going forward. But we're going to be releasing an episode kind of explaining that a little bit more and talking about the reformat and all of that stuff. But Kristen and I are coming back and I'm very, very happy about that.

[01:50:04] So me and my mother, we've been waiting anxiously for the good place to start up. OK, and that's what we're going to be kicking it off with. We're sticking to what we said. We're going to dive into the good place on that. But it's keep an eye out for that episode on the revisited feed to hear about why we're leaving podcast. It's nothing there's obviously you're still hearing me on podcast. So, you know, it's nothing bad.

[01:50:30] It's just some changes that we're making as well as the new name and everything else. So keep an eye out for that. But you can find Wilhelm revisited all of that stuff at welcome to Wilhelm dot com is where you can find links to all of that stuff as well. And I can make this public now, too, not to take up all the time. But Eric and I, Eric from my one of my co-hosts on the cast of us talking about the last of us, a.k.a. Mr. Blog.

[01:51:01] Eric and I are going to be launching our own podcast relatively soon called Previously on Survivor. We are going to be doing a Survivor rewatch podcast. Oh, I'm in. I am in. I am in. So you can find them what? Paramount Plus, I think. All this. They are on every season of Survivor is on Paramount Plus. And we are going in. We are going all the way back to season one. Snakes and rats, baby. Snakes and rats.

[01:51:29] I am so here for it, bro. Oh, my God. I am in. I'm in. I'm excited. I love podcasting with Eric on the cast of us. So he's actually the one that brought the idea to me to do a podcast with me. We're both huge Survivor fans. I've actually auditioned for Survivor and came really, really close to being on the show. But we're going to save that story for the podcast. Love it. I'm so excited. That's going to be amazing. I'm in. Yeah.

[01:51:57] But more information on where you can find that once it launches is also at welcometowilham.com. All right. That is our show. Thanks for listening. Don't get bit, Eric Scott.