"Art for Art's Sake" (Daredevil: Born Again S1E7)

[00:00:00] Ah!

[00:00:30] dead would have been one more if Daredevil hadn't shown up. And he's still out there. So I'm going to need you to reach out to your contacts and find out exactly where all of those victims are. So you think I'm going to enable you with this shit? He's going to go into survival mode because he knows he's got limited time. If I can figure out his pattern, I can figure out where he's going to strike next. So do me a favor. Talk to your contacts. No, no, no, no, no. If you want to blow up your

[00:00:54] life again, you go ahead. Join your own. There was a time when you were on the force.

[00:01:03] Moments like this, you called me. Hey, everybody. Welcome to Daredevil Born Again,

[00:01:30] a podcast to Marvel TV cast. I'm Jim. And I'm Kirk. The episode we're going to be discussing is Season 1, Episode 7, Art for Art's Sake, written by Jill Blankenship and directed by David Boyd. And of course, we know Boyd from the last episode, Episode 6, and it really makes sense that he directed this episode. I think if I did what we talked about in the last podcast, I watched them

[00:01:55] back to back and the framing, if you frame it that way or even have made that into one really long episode, I think maybe it would have made both of them better. But they did have the same feel with the same almost format, if you think about it. But Boyd, I think, is a very simple director, and I did like them both better. The interesting part about this is the previous director called Boyd

[00:02:21] the Bernthal Whisperer, which made me think that he was going to direct episodes with Bernthal actually in it. And he wasn't in either of these episodes, which now makes me think the next two episodes were cut apart as well, even though I heard that they weren't. So I also I think this was written by Jill Blankenship, and I think she also wrote Episode 3, which was the White Tiger

[00:02:51] port battle episode, which which was really good and talks. You know, I feel like you'll see what my my what I was impressed with this in this episode was also well done in that episode. So and she's not definitely ties in with her. Yeah, she's not she doesn't have a rich history of writing or directing or producing like many of these other people do, which I actually like she was

[00:03:20] probably helps. She was connected to she was a co-executive producer for Arrow and season seven and then the executive producer of that show during its last season when they were out things that didn't write. She didn't. She did write a couple of episodes for that. Yeah, but she's her her writing and producing are all limited to about five or six things.

[00:03:42] Whereas if you if you try to run through Boyd's, you know list of the things that he's done, it's you know, it goes back into the 90s and as a cinematographer and a director and a writer and hers it seems like she's staying very focused and obviously attached to Marvel things. So people like her and I think she did a great job in both the episodes that she wrote. Yeah, I'm not sure I thought that this was a real standout for me in terms of the

[00:04:11] interpersonal relationships character building dialogue. So yeah, yeah, I have to It answered some of the questions that you've had throughout which I think we've all had but we'll get into that. So yeah, generally speaking I think you started talking about how you feel about this episode I We've texted a bit outside of this and I could tell this is one of your favorite episodes I will say that this is tied for the least liked episode of the series

[00:04:41] Well, I'm persistent if I'm nothing I'm putting this in, you know, if you look on IMDb we're talking about 8.1 So this is the low standard and I want to preface all of this too. I think, you know, we're critical 8 out of 10? Yeah, yeah So there have been a bunch of 9s and 10s? They've all hovered between 8.8 which was the episode Episode 6 was 8.8 Episode 7 was 8.1

[00:05:07] As of the last time I checked and I haven't checked Rotten Tomatoes yet but yeah, so according to IMDb So take that for what it's worth But that 8.8 is the top and 8.1 is the bottom So this series has been hovering in pretty good territory Yeah, I'll say, holy cow So general thoughts and maybe zoom on into your first point General thoughts, it is in fact my favorite episode of the season so far I definitely enjoyed it from beginning to end

[00:05:35] There was nothing, there were no cringe moments for me There were no uncomfortable dialogues or conversations or cuts So I thought this was It just seemed to me like they were getting tighter and tighter in the writing You know, most importantly I felt like this had the best character development of side characters And I think for me that has been a lacking part of the show I think we've talked about that And I understand

[00:06:05] the show is focused on the two main protagonists but and their evolution or de-evolution or you know, rebirthing or being reborn But I think that one thing that's clear for me is that Daredevil as a character as a compelling character needs to have additional side characters that help bring out

[00:06:34] you know, your concern for him for their connection to him so that you care about them so that there's there's there's a price to be paid if someone you know, like Foggy I mean, the reason Foggy's death was so powerful even though for any new watcher it probably wasn't very powerful at all but if you'd watched the series at all you knew you know how important Foggy was so I always I felt that the season was lacking that a little bit

[00:07:03] I felt this episode really changed that dramatically for me I liked it a lot I do think you and I talked separately after we got done recording the last two episodes is that yeah they should have split instead of five, six together it should have been six, seven I mean, five could have so easily been a standalone episode being the bank heist sure and and then six and seven being kind of the muse the muse arc

[00:07:33] yeah, the muse arc exactly and and it would have been more powerful I think and especially if you'd seen them together it would have been like a one long episode having watched these three though I think the producers probably Scarpedone and again if that's not how you pronounce his name you know sorry I think that probably the biggest concern that they had as second showrunners was that

[00:08:02] one-off episode being almost impossible to do anything with because it was a secondary story where we sort of got the teeter-totter with Matt kind of shifting from the lawyer to Daredevil they really couldn't do anything with that episode so as a standalone I'm sure they were worried about it so they tried to tether it to I think well and if you if you look at if you look at the big critical hits that this show has taken and when I say it plural

[00:08:31] there really hasn't been many but that episode was the one that caught that social media pervert of what are we doing with it why so they were right to an extent I think people that know the comic books or read comic books or intertwined with this character intertwined with the Netflix series specifically too were able to look at that episode as a standalone and appreciate it for that where I think a lot of people were

[00:08:59] if you look at the timing of it you add an extra episode beginning where you do get a little bit of the suit and then you have these this long drawn out process where you don't have the suit and then you have this episode where he's basically not even attached to the rest of the series you mean five you mean yeah five five speaking of five so I think I think it was the the showrunner and the executive producers being careful with that one singular episode not knowing what to do with it so I think they tethered it to this

[00:09:29] and I think it was a mistake I think yeah I think they were concerned that that they'd made they've made everybody wait until episode six to get more daredevil right and they just felt like they needed to to satisfy that demand or they were worried and felt they should probably try and satisfy that demand by by bringing connecting it to episode six but sure but I think that was probably made that wasn't made based on the viewership as they were watching it I don't think

[00:09:58] I think that was probably made before they did they did alter they did alter the schedule after the first or second episode and blended those two together and we speculated we speculated that they did it to have it finish prior to oh yeah and or which which which may have been to your point which may have been something that they were going to do and maybe maybe maybe they had that schedule yeah but but but

[00:10:28] and they would have gotten the same effect yeah the schedule so so they chose to do it this way because I think they felt like people were going to have to watch Matt be Daredevil again without the suit and right they knew that that was you know they were pushing the limits on that it will have having watched it now is a singular to a double episode I think it's great like these two episodes are this one certainly depending on where you're at with it either picks up episode six or six picks up episode seven

[00:10:58] I think brings it to a very solid like arc as we mentioned so jumping into my first point as I mentioned you know the the relationships and the character connections I thought were were standouts for me Cherry and Matt arguing over his getting back into the suit was great I thought you know Cherry clearly cares about him like Foggy did and he doesn't want to stand by and let Matt you know fall off the wagon essentially sure and the intensity of that exchange

[00:11:27] it was just it was heartfelt and it helps us viewers also now care about Cherry and their relationship because we know how much he cares about Matt and I felt like that was that was really really important and then you know in turn also McDuffie and Cherry then have a confrontation as a result of that Cherry-Matt confrontation and you know and she's stepping up saying hey what's going on with Matt and he's like I love that he says he's on my shit list right now you don't want to ask me about him

[00:11:57] that was great but but again you know she wants to be let in to the secret world she wants to know what's going on she cares about them she cares about the firm and wants to help and and and that you know again puts her for me in a in a light that's much more positive and connected to Matt and and and helps his character for me sure it makes her less of a flat she's been a flat character throughout this yeah you can tell that the actress

[00:12:27] is putting in great work there's probably been stuff that's been cut out and and this she got a chance to breathe with multiple characters in this episode for the first time uh and and it felt great yeah yep and then the Heather-Matt relationship you know they actually connect in this episode you know it felt kind of superficial up until this point um you know the opening shower scene really sets the stage um their passion together I want I'm going to say more about that scene but yeah just touching on that um

[00:12:57] then later when she's worried about his bruises um you know she has genuine concern for him and is you know reaching out to him and and uh it makes for me it makes us care about that character more and it was crucial that we started to care more about her because of this story arc it gave us some depth and it also gave us fear for the future because for the first time we were given a reason to worry about how the hell Matt is going to explain this once again about how he's got all these bruises with some ludicrousness

[00:13:27] of him falling when I'm certain that someone yeah but it was great because she doesn't buy it I mean she's a professional she knows she knows he's holding back and she confronts him with him she's like look you know you've been holding back so much trauma yeah well and just the fear though going forward of where this is going to go especially now we'll get to that later but right yeah there's some depth there for sure we get some great scenes also away from the two main characters to build surrounding characters you know like the Gandolfini BB scene which I know you and I

[00:13:57] talked earlier about it's you didn't I know you didn't care for it too much but to me it helped flesh that out he's becoming an asshole he's becoming a little fist and more importantly BB is realizing she's in over her head a little bit and realizing she'll have to make a decision like her uncle did sure you know is she going to tell the truth and be a journalist or is she going to buckle under the fear so so that to me that

[00:14:27] that just helps the story overall of course then we've got fist talking with Buck you know Buck has been kind of this like ghost in the story you know and he just kind of pops up he's doing a little dirty work he didn't seem very important at all well after that discussion where Fisk is sitting by the window you know we get so much more about how tight a relationship these guys have how important Buck is to him you know he alludes to his previous career you know and I think

[00:14:56] just fleshes out again Fisk more because now now we know this is a very important relationship to him I know you're going to talk some more about about Buck so I won't go much more into that well I just I just it's been frustrating for me with regards to Buck just simply because there there there's a comic book relationship which we'll talk about later but I there you can this this actor who has been in you know he was in Carnival Row

[00:15:26] a fantastic character there and he just hasn't he's just been again much like Kirsten McDuffie just this character in the background to the point where we've had discussions about his true allegiances was it to Vanessa was it to right was it by episode seven yeah all of these characters should be so much richer think about the main the original series on Netflix I mean Karen and Foggy and all these people were so fleshed out

[00:15:56] by that point you know what I mean well to the point Wesley was as main a character in season one as any other character absolutely to the point where in fact I found him a little scarier yeah well I yeah because he he's the guy who can he can take Fisk's you know kingpin and bring it into the light and and sound sane where and also you know clearly Fisk needs you know kind of like we were talking about last week about the

[00:16:26] episode last week where he goes and talks to the police himself and makes this rah you know go team motivating speech which is so out of character in my opinion you know he's a manipulator not a motivator and because he didn't have anybody like Wesley but he does and you know that's what Buck is and until this episode until episode seven and these scenes with him I just didn't feel that connection now I do and to your point again last week

[00:16:56] kingpin and I'm just going to call him that now because it seems like we've entered that phase although we still haven't gotten the white suit but we'll come back to that he has an interaction with the police the anti-vigilante task force which is definitively better because of the underlying threat of what he says to Cole North at the near the end of the episode where he tells him he's taking

[00:17:25] credit for this and not daredevil even though North was pointing out that it wasn't them that did it people were falling into their roles and we were getting depth like this Cole North character again there should be more depth there we still haven't really got anything with him but we're starting to he's a big character in the books sure sure and he's being played right now like he's being forced to make choices and I feel like in the books he never really showed

[00:17:57] there's been some choices I think that were made in the prior six that the prior six with the original show runners that are now being re-vetted out better and this is the episode where I think we're starting to see that kind of launch forward I'm excited because the new show runner and the new directors who are taking essentially over full on after they did episode one they're doing the next two it definitely seems like they're trying to launch forward with this episode so so definitely positive there in the books

[00:18:27] I don't ever recall there being there obviously there was Vanessa and her connection with him was really tight and important and influential but I remember there being a Wesley or a Buck type of character Wesley was there yeah Wesley was there okay yeah but Wesley yeah Wesley's demise in the comics didn't match Wesley's demise in the show that's what made me very sad but Kingpin Kingpin has in the comic books relied on a variety of different people

[00:18:56] throughout them and we've seen them in and out but that's why I think with a character like Daniel Blake who to my knowledge is not in the comics I think that we're getting a lot of a lot of these past characters are getting maybe even a new shine and I think the original show runners and Daredevil Born Again had a lot of great ideas that weren't vetted out and it seems like these new the new people that came in are doing a nice job of piecing it all together and giving weight to it

[00:19:26] unfortunately I don't think they had enough to be able to do it in the prior six and I just want to again preface I think that you and I probably share this thought that you know it's almost like an 8.1 we're still talking about a show that we love it's just right there there are holes in it that are evident and it's hard to tell because they've done such a masterful job of sewing it together it's hard to tell where the holes are from if it was just because of the first six or if it's more kind of like you feel the holes you can't

[00:19:56] yeah yeah sure sure well my point was relationships as well and I literally wrote all of these down I Matt and Heather Matt and Cherry Buck and Kingpin and just a prop to Artie Frusjean who is playing the Buck character you can tell that there's going to be more to come with this character at least they're better Matt and Angela we get a brief little connection to sort of give the problem you had in the last episode a little more weight or you can see that his conversations

[00:20:25] with her and his connections with her he was the one who was there waiting with her with his mom I thought that was a nice little touch Vanessa and Luka again going back to the first episode and going back to the five families where we got to see Buck interacting we had of course Vanessa and Fisk which I still think is going to be interesting I know we're going to talk more about that later I think it's a lot more complicated although I do think it's heading to an ending of togetherness but we'll get to that in a second the Heather and Bastion Cooper

[00:20:55] relationship which actually is one of my points so we'll come back to this one which I found in isolation interesting and intriguing but found in the overall arc a little irritating we'll get to that we do get kind of an interesting interaction with detectives in this Angie Kim has an interaction with Kingpin well we'll call him Wilson Fisk for this because it seemed like it which was again much better much better written much better directed than than what we saw in

[00:21:24] episode five yes in my opinion you know well I mean her confusion at Fisk and his approach I just it it just read very real to me yeah well and it gives it lens how Kingpin how Fisk is handling the police a little better I think than in the past Cherry and Kirsten Kingpin and Heather even though they don't have any scenes together

[00:21:54] per se in this episode he cares about the fact that he perks up when you know she's mentioned as a target which is again a fun little connection for Murdoch Daredevil Kingpin Wilson Fisk although they could have played that better but that's for another day and then I mentioned Kingpin and Colmork just as part of this and then the BB and Daniel interaction which yeah I just

[00:22:23] I feel like you know he's sitting there playing with his stupid ring and it just I know it's based off a comic but it's almost like they're trying to and this is probably the point you pick Michael Gandolfini and obviously you you feel remnants of his father you know playing a infamous mobster and we have a scene at the end of this it's very similar perhaps to the end scene of the Soprano spoilers but

[00:22:53] I just it was actually you're right I feel like I don't know this is one of those episodes they should have gone they should have gone to black and then let us know what happened until the next episode yeah yeah oh yeah with a journey song maybe but I I don't want to spend too much time with the BB and Daniel relationship I get it man I get it I mean I think I think what I feel and I think is echoing what

[00:23:22] your issues are here is that yeah it's it's a it's a perfect example of the lack of character development and relationship development that's been going on at least throughout the whole show in my opinion with side characters and that if this relationship had been touched on more frequently instead of the there's the first time and then there's the burn where you know he he drunkenly you know he's trying to hang out with her he's obviously trying to you

[00:23:52] know show off or whatever so then he gets burned on that but that then there's this so it's just kind of like a little too fast yeah for this to have meaning to it because it's like why are they friends yeah well like were they friends prior to this like give me there's none of that's there right and my problem apply that with that rushed kind of oh they're out partying scene you know what I mean sure sure like but it seems like they've been friends right I don't think it's or were they you have to kind of read into it then that that sucks show us right well and there are things

[00:24:22] that that you know as a as a viewer you can sort of make your own thoughts about but you've got to give us a platform to stand on which they haven't done until this episode and if you think about all the relationships that I just ran through the thing I didn't like about this episode and these relationships yes it was better it gave us more foundation it is episode seven we have two more episodes in season one and yeah I think that's exactly why this the BBC is and Gandolfini still even though it was great to get something with

[00:24:52] them it's weak because there just is nothing to hang hang your hat on there yeah there's no there's no concern or feeling of like betrayal by him being like that to her sure you know what I mean sure well and you go back to us getting the depth with Heather and Charlie and Heather and I'm sorry Matthew Matt Murdoch that scene was amazing because two actors made it amazing right but after you know because when she said that she loved him and I

[00:25:22] you know you could hear her heartbeat kind of underlying there so he knew that she was telling the truth and then he says it back to her I had that doubt like was he really going to say and it gave it weight because they acted really well but then I was like so we basically have skipped their whole entire relationship we saw day one and now they had dinner and now they live together and now they live together yeah I mean rushed big time so so it's it's and I think that I mean think about the relationship with Karen and how that evolved

[00:25:51] over the whole season okay so that I when she was talking my favorite part of that scene was the trauma quote but also she's talking to him and she says look Heather you realize I used to have this whole other life and it was a lot different than this and I was like oh no no no no and then she says at your old firm with your old friends and she unlike John Berthold Punisher she

[00:26:20] very quickly says foggy and and there's this pause right and then she said she goes Karen and I was like ooh ooh it feels like there should be something there that we don't know and and and I will say that that again Charlie Cox fabulous in every scene but the the the actor portraying Heather I'm I'm pissed for her good job oh every scene in this episode that she was in she added so much weight a lot with her facials

[00:26:50] obviously the way she handled things how she handled Bastion slash Muse and in her office which we'll talk about again but I I when she said to Matt in the scene this is what makes this episode I think in my opinion one of the better episodes she says things like this you've been tamping down trauma for so long you can't even see when it's bubbling up inside of you and threatens to ruin everything good you have everything good we have you can see and I mean this is the story of Matt she says it in one sentence and there's weight

[00:27:20] to it and you can kind of see his reaction that sort of that's also great writing oh she's fabulous she's yeah she's you know she's saying you're being self-destructive you know yeah well the female characters in this episode are given great great writing and which makes this episode stand out to your point Angela Kim has that great scene where she's acting like a police officer to kingpin but holds a pensiveness like

[00:27:50] this is a guy that I was just trying to chase down five years ago or seven years ago however long ago was well and also how personal he's getting involved in yes work yeah the mayor what the hell what the hell is he doing why is he you know what I mean yeah so I you know the relationships part of this was great I specifically like the Heather Glenn part of it although I want more there and of course now with what's happened in this episode we're probably going to get some more where's this going to go but again with only two episodes

[00:28:19] left and an arc that ended that we just read an article that was going to carry on in season two which may or may not I don't I there was lots I loved about it and there were just some some gaps in the relationships based on everything that we've talked about in prior podcasts that that just stood out to me so I'm going to add my my my point one there with the relationships because yeah finally now earn my trust earn my trust back keep giving me some more before we get to the end of episode nine all right point two let's head down point

[00:28:49] point two very simple that opening shower with Matt yeah you know was just I thought was just perfect he's you know some metaphorically being baptized yes born again well and how they how they interjected Angela's dream with a scene of Matt as daredevil and then it flashes right to him throwing his head back in the shower right like he was baptizing himself

[00:29:18] yeah and like he also that he's he's been reborn which is what baptism is right and you know it's almost like it's the title of the series I also like how without being beating us over the head or being too too much religiosity that's the right word but you know it brings back Matt's religious connection and the fact that you know which we then

[00:29:47] get her words about you know you've been holding back all this trauma later in that scene you know that's kind of also like he's been holding back the devil you know who gets out all of his pent-up trauma and then her joining him in that shower there was no words without questions words just passion yeah and it reinforced you know how satisfied I think he is once now that

[00:30:17] he's being himself and how much more comfortable he is in his own skin and with other people and with her because he's kind of let out this thing that he's been holding back for so long yeah he's more at peace he can be more himself he can be more passionate he can that side of him I thought it was great yeah I again it lends to the weight it's a blend of things here I think that you know we

[00:30:47] kind of said funny memes back and forth to each other throughout the week and you sent me the one where Matt Murdoch's not really blind showing all the women that he's involved with I but it lends to this character that throughout both the run in the movies and the run in the comics and the run in the obviously the series the two series now he is a very

[00:31:16] sexual character who is I would stop a step short of saying playboy but he certainly plays to his charms because of his senses and I think that's always been a big part of the comic book he's got the riz and he uses it so but I the seriousness of that scene because you know you see the blood and when she started walking in to the bathroom I'm like oh shit yeah she's this is she doesn't

[00:31:46] know well we don't know this but we find out by the end she doesn't know who he is she doesn't have a reason to she doesn't know that he's their devil and this again secrets that he has to hold her now back full force because you know foggy knew actually the only you know cherry knows but obviously Heather doesn't and you're like how's he going to explain all the blood but she doesn't ask any questions when she walks in they spend the night together and then when they wake up in the morning the questions start coming

[00:32:16] and well it's also a there's a non verbal acknowledgement yeah of her touching the bruise right her touching the bruise that this guy is still is somewhat tortured that he's in pain that he's suffering that he's hurt and then she says that in the next scene but it's you know again show us don't tell us and that that was great yeah and it wasn't what I love about it too is it wasn't a threat that how

[00:32:45] she was talking to him and it wasn't even quite as a therapist even though Matt makes a quip about it it you can tell the way that she's portraying it and the way that Matt is portraying it too that he doesn't want her to know she wants to know but there's a depth there of love this isn't like if you're this person I'm going to leave you although she does make a quote to muse that might lend us some trouble down the road but we'll

[00:33:15] get there oh she does say you're destroying this yeah you know what I mean you're undermining this which but then folds into the I love you you know what I mean like my point simply being is a normal a badly written scramps it would have would have had them this is who you are if you're not telling me the truth this relationship is over right but it was

[00:34:00] somewhere down the line will be a part of his life which plays out in front of us and in front of her at the end of the episode too if we fold into that episode where she had just said to muse that you're a coward if you wear a mask so I think that she's a smart person who realized that someone

[00:34:30] Daredevil and realized that Daredevil said her name so we're heading down a path and then there's this unspoken memory that Kingpin knows who he is and we have this complex will he or won't he ever say anything tied together with the last scene of the Netflix series where we have Daredevil saves Vanessa's life and they make their promises to each

[00:35:00] end because I can't imagine we're not going to at least play a little with people knowing who Daredevil is right so anyways yeah so my point too is kind of a common theme that we've talked about in numerous episodes we get a full on description of how thoroughly Kingpin Wilson Fisk believes that

[00:35:30] we get to see Buck sort of vetted out a little bit where Buck and he are having a conversation about Daredevil coming back and we get to see D'Onofrio just he gets a little expository here but he does it in a way that's so amazing when Buck says you know Daredevil cleaning up this mess isn't a bad thing is it you know for the sake of the city and he says that for the sake of the city and the way he

[00:36:00] says it he goes for the sake of the city and I was like we're talking about and this diatribe that he gives him is so reminiscent of current day politics you know without really diving into that he says and if you take into all of actually saving the city but we're talking about a man who single-handedly destroyed 10 years of business structure not to mention the fact that he

[00:36:29] was a mob boss but I ponder that term blue collar millionaires from distributors overseas to port workers here and he sang it

[00:36:59] in a sad voice at that point I actually wrote sad but I wrote it for a different reason but again I don't want to connect those people they had grit he went on a rampage he tracked down all of my workers and this comes from for those of you that have watched Echo there was there was a he tracked out all my workers custom facilitators all of them savagely beating them down he broke bones broke

[00:37:29] spirits without due process without standing or legal cause all because of this twisted delusional man this vigilante because of his righteousness and I watched that episode I watched that scene and I was like oh my gosh this guy truly believes it he truly believes it but what's amazing about that is that he is slowly sucking in all of these people around him into buying into it as well the police the anti

[00:37:59] vigilantes Daniel Buck obviously dependent on where Buck comes from and we'll talk about that in a news piece but I just that head of to try to get rid of the vigilantes or trying to stop him from being the king kind of crux yeah gosh it touches too much truth

[00:38:29] for me Kirk it touches too much truth but again I'm backing out of that and heading towards your third point my third point is just a couple of individual little points I love the editing back and forth between Heather and Mews and Fisk with Detective Kim I thought it was a great way for us rather than just seeing Heather and and Mews and him slowly you know getting more

[00:38:59] bizarre it just had a little bit more power with the cuts back and forth with Fisk and Kim discussing this guy's degeneracy and mental illness and history of crime and they found a way to give us expository without it feeling like expository because of how they blended it together I mean the only downside is it's like she's read the damn report so he's sitting there reading it to her and she's like

[00:39:29] motherfucker I know I know I read the thing I put the thing together for you you know what I mean why are you reading it to me you dumb fuck but I I loved it I love but I think that's part of her whole expression which is yeah you know what I mean and part of who he is because clearly she can't know about it until he knows about it so right but but this dude this dude doesn't Daniel knows shit before he does it's kind of funny when you think about it like Daniel comes to him

[00:39:59] with all this stuff and he's just a bumbling idiot anyways okay sorry I love the muse lying on the canvas like a self-portrait at the end but also that's daredevil art yeah daredevil created that art well him and Heather together I guess yeah as an artist how did you feel about that I hope it didn't give you thoughts because I'm thankful we're doing this on zoom yeah amen

[00:40:28] first it's also the first villain in the daredevil series whether Netflix or this series that he fights that has a costume yeah if you think about and I thought that was pretty cool it was finally we're kind of finally getting daredevil really in the MCU you know and not just like daredevil in New York city because he's a New York guy I suppose you can count the Punisher from the Netflix series he had kind of a

[00:40:58] costume but really this is the first super villain costume that he fights yeah I mean the fully fleshed out costume too and I loved I don't know if his costume was made out of burlap but I love that it looked a little like a canvas as well yeah exactly that's on purpose I think I can't remember in the comics if that was what it was but I the costume was fabulous absolutely wonderful

[00:41:28] very cool bad guy costume yeah good point and you know I liked that he does his own self portrait while he's talking to her with his blood from his nose but then ends up on the canvas as a self portrait so that was kind of a cool little thing and then the fight sequence itself was epic again we talked about last time about I was using the baton more and just loved all of that fight scene

[00:41:57] I also loved that they had and again you mentioned that the female characters were so much better written in this episode the fact that Heather fights back she doesn't just cower she goes for the gun at one point and then of course in the end is the one that takes him down which was beautiful and I do want to mention too and I think we talked about this a little bit well

[00:42:29] empowering empowering how about that yes her character her as an actress which again sort of scared the director a bit she much like much like Charlie Cox she didn't want to stunt double to do a lot of the scenes that she was part of so the first two or three takes of Bastion Mews slamming her into the wall was her and she wanted to keep doing

[00:42:58] it and had to be asked not to because you they didn't screw up the filming he actually kind of jokingly said that but you could tell that there was some levity to what he was saying but the actress's name is Margarita LaViva and again I probably really butchered that but she's been fabulous in the series yeah and one thing she's really great at is communicating

[00:43:28] with her eyes there was so much facial expression and and you know like she goes from being soft and open and listening yeah and you kind of start to what I mean and really really really well done

[00:43:58] yeah and when you take into account her life was clearly at risk without really diving into the meat of it because I don't know what Apple podcasts like yanked down or not but she had a wound that was clearly life threatening and at no point did she give up and they made a point of showing her fighting back to the point where in the middle the fight the fight was so amazingly intricate because you had so many different things going on this was my

[00:44:28] fourth point as well the interaction between first her and Bastion then to her and Muse then him you know laying out the canvas daredevil in the plane of day bursting through the window so you have the interaction between the three but then you have the anti vigilantes coming and have Matt paying attention to them so you have this and then in the background you have this again you know to your

[00:44:59] religiosity you have this chorus playing in the background that built up the tension and the interplay between all of this you know she gets starts to get up and Muse grabs the knife which leads to one of my favorite scenes in any of the daredevil seasons when he uses the billy cubs string to wrap around him and blood squirts out of his chest because the string he pulls the string taut the fact that

[00:45:28] this character probably the only bit of exposition that frustrated me was the whole taekwondo bullshit I'm not even going to dive down that but what I did like about it gave meaning for how well this human can fight against daredevil daredevil has a little bit of taekwondo experience as well it made this fight more realistic and very abruptly ended and I did not see it coming and I loved that part of it where you can see that now Heather's

[00:45:58] going to have some trauma to work through going forward so yeah I definitely took her comments in that final scene at the hospitals that she knows I think he said my name and he was trying to play it off and I just I think it's going to end up with them I think that's going to be the breaking part of them I think that's my guess is that her knowledge her finding out about that will be but that'll also she'll still also be an important

[00:46:28] character I hope she'll be somebody who knows who he is that he can go to he can get support and talk to you and well and remember she has a relationship both with Vanessa and Wilson Fisk that I would assume is going to

[00:46:59] I would be and I haven't done that in a long time I loved the end of this episode the last 25 minutes sends us down so many different directions and I think to the new team that put all of this together to tie it all together this

[00:47:28] way without it feeling like it standing there taking credit for killing muse holding up the mask which I thought was a great little touch yeah and then we have that ending scene

[00:47:58] very reminiscent of any mob movie that you've ever seen where there's going again you talk about cinematography here we see Luca walk up through the outside he looks in through the window and sees kingpin there's

[00:48:28] no way anybody else could be there and he walks up as he's pulling out the gun I'm like complexity and I like that they I watched an interview with David Boyd

[00:48:58] the director who talked about the end scene and I don't believe the end scene was the way it was originally initiated he was asked what that scene meant and he very coyly said the executive producers definitely wanted you to think certain ways at the end of the scene without really giving away whether or not Vanessa set him to kill him or set him to be killed and I they obviously ended without answering that question although I think we we have some differing

[00:49:28] points here coming up I black and white did she send him to be killed or did she send him to kill and I felt it was black and white but I know you didn't yeah well but that I think is the point I think

[00:49:59] Vanessa has set up enough in the past and we've talked about all this where she wants power but again does she want power alone or does she feel more galvanized that power with and does she want power or does she want her her kingpin back yeah well it's great and the power that comes with that obviously but which Luca points to in this episode like this was better with you and you know and I personally

[00:50:29] believe that kingpin and Vanessa as a duo is a market improvement over any other direction they could possibly go which perhaps no pun intended murders any possibility of a setup involving foggy but then again maybe maybe not maybe not maybe do things at the beginning that

[00:50:59] you yeah well yeah I think we'll get an answer on that definitely and you know I'll stop there because there has been a trailer for episode eight but I'm not going to talk about that so I loved how how that final scene in the restaurant just reminded me so much of the godfather and when Michael Corleone becomes Michael right and he goes to the restaurant which is I thought maybe it was in Brooklyn but I just looked it up it was in the Bronx so but

[00:51:30] they didn't go that quite that far in terms of echoing that but that's how it I love to call back to the Sopranos the idea of the hit and all

[00:51:59] that stuff and then you know the fact that you know when he buck steps out and shoots him how he in the white suit it does lend credence to the fact that perhaps now Wilson Fisk

[00:52:29] can be kingpin with his wife as opposed to against him we don't have a suit yet though we got a suit up he's walked by that white suit well and it didn't fit until now so maybe he had to eat that talamari or whatever he was eating Matt Murdoch goes and does a little work with his billy clubs and kingpin goes to Italian restaurant

[00:52:59] and eats it out all right do you have any notes no that's it I do want to say this I apologize kingpin former current chief of staff who was not even in this episode but I was already I got her Sheila Rivera

[00:53:30] I apologize for not knowing your name even though you for some reason weren't in this episode at all so maybe maybe you're dead I Rivera yeah who she is probably well I'm not going to be mean

[00:54:02] all right we're going to take a break there's more to come we got some news so stay with us welcome back to hell's kitchen confidential we got a little bit of daredevil actually quite a bit of daredevil news thanks to an interview that

[00:54:31] a brand new interview that Vincent D'Onofrio did with a YouTube interviewer named Josh Horwitz he spilled a ton of goodies including one that I don't think anybody has talked about whatsoever although we talk about this happening to lots of other characters the Incredible Hulk being one of them but Wilson Fisk many people have been expecting him to show up maybe in a Spider-Man movie specifically because

[00:55:07] know that as of now Wilson Fisk cannot be used in any of the MCU movies and I'm just going to read a few quotes from the article he was asked will we see Wilson Fisk in one of the new phases especially with the Avengers movies coming up and perhaps brand new day that was just announced and D'Onofrio said the only thing I know is not positive D'Onofrio explained to Josh Horowitz on the podcast Happy Sad Confused recently it's a very hard thing

[00:55:37] to do for Marvel to use my character it's a very hard thing to do because of ownership and stuff I'm only usable for television shows not even a one off Wilson Fisk movie it's all caught up in rights and stuff I don't know when that would work out or if it ever would work out at all and you know you can intertwine this into two different categories because you had the initial Daredevil use of Wilson Fisk in the original movie 2003 which I

[00:56:16] may be limped in with that so as of right now well Fisk Kingpin is a Spider-Man villain first and and then became a prominent Daredevil villain and is pretty much associated almost almost exclusively with yeah with with DD but he really is a Spider-Man so character so I'm not surprised to hear that because they got like something like 900 characters when they did those when they did that deal

[00:56:46] but I would I would argue I would guess that it would be relatively easy to get him into one of the Sony Spider-Man movies to bring him into Spider-Man movies although he seems to rule that out in this article but I don't see why that I mean they may have to pay Sony but and Sony may be resisting it because they have plans to use him some other way but sure I think they could

[00:57:15] Miles Morales yeah but that's animated yeah well but it's different but that's still part of that but that's still part of that universe that's yeah but they yeah they can do Marvel can do that well that was Sony anyway that was so yeah so so that's my point like so so to your alternate universe that's not but it's it's it is one that the producers of all the movies

[00:57:46] so I am super intrigued by all of it because you know they used him for the Netflix show it's never been brought up before obviously we've talked about him possibly being in movies before not us but everyone like when's DeOnofrio going to show up and it's been a little bit of a head scratcher that he hasn't this makes perfect sense also though I will say this DeOnofrio in the past has been coy and if

[00:58:16] there's one thing I know about him is he even if Sony let him be in a movie that wasn't Sony related I don't this would be a great story to tell I mean it's true but it also might not be so I'm I'm going to just listen to it with a grain of salt and see where we go with it it would be such a so in that same interview

[00:58:47] Vincent was discussing and let out some information about some discussions with Kevin Fage and his role in the show overall and it was pretty interesting yeah between Charlie and I yes it was a collective idea he said of the overhaul you know I have to say the initial writers they had a great idea the how

[00:59:20] crazy is it though that the two actors really were the ones that spearheaded the change because clearly Feige wasn't part of it at it wasn't working Charlie and I couldn't understand

[00:59:51] how we were supposed to portray these characters that everybody loves within the environment we were putting us in so we kept on bumping against that he says that this is a pretty big compliment 40 years of acting he's completely unique to me the context in the

[01:00:21] context of the position that he's in he listened very carefully and he did the due diligence to get to some good work on the series the divisive bottle episode the fifth chapter with interest was the only one untouched

[01:00:51] by the new creative team you mentioned that last week it was indicative of what the series would have looked like as a whole then yes we can safely assume that Daredevil Born Again was in trouble that is definitely that just so were clear that's not the not speaking that's the writer right I hate that there are people that don't see how important episodes like episode five can be and again

[01:01:21] coming from somebody who said as many F-words about it before I watched it it is really growing on me to the point I mean if like I said last week if it's the worst episode of this season that I'm good like it definitely has an 8.5 feel to me so I do think that the new show runners have done just such a great job of piecing it together that you can leave that episode alone and it fits perfectly well so I think the

[01:01:51] takeaway for me who trust in the creative process and supports it is not it's not an ego trip it's not I know what's best type of deal for instance he knew that that series was the standout of the Netflix Marvel shows that

[01:02:21] it was super popular super successful so when the people who were the backbone you got to have faith in them you got to trust in that you know you can't let your ego be like well these are the people I put in charge to write it and direct it and produce it or whatever and and I trust them so get lost you're the actors do what you're told read the script you know what I mean well

[01:02:50] especially when when you put it in go because the actors didn't see the direction of their characters and I think you can handle this as you know the mastermind behind the MCU you can handle this in one of two ways we've seen it play out and

[01:03:20] over time you know actors can come and talk and be labeled as miscreants and troublemakers and he didn't do that he listened to these two actors who quite honestly portrayed an intense care not only for their character but for the audience he listened to them and then what I loved about the statement is you know he didn't just listen to them and then go everybody fired he listened to them and he put

[01:03:51] into researching what was going on and perhaps looking at some of the things that had already been shot and realizing that the which I'm very much looking forward to because I think they did a great job putting

[01:04:21] together season one the final short little piece of news was Ayelet Zer the actress who portrays Vanessa and if she said

[01:04:51] she was able to share thoughts on Vanessa and Vanessa touching on the sense of loyalty and trust between the characters which lends me to believe that her loyalty and trust is always going to be with Wilson Fisk but she says and I sees who is fully she doesn't see the bad side of him

[01:05:21] or the good side of him I think she sees him in full sense and I feel like maybe he does the same for her maybe he comes to the season in you were thinking in that end scene that she

[01:05:51] definitively just said hey Wilson I'm sending this guy to you take care of it right well what she's looking at is if she condones that she's condoning basically an all-out war between the crews there's none of the other crews have sworn loyalty to her like he did so you and also if he's willing to

[01:06:20] turn on Kingpin he'll be willing to turn on her sure so you know he's a threat it makes no sense to support that yeah and and she he mistakes her feelings as being in concert with his that things were better when she was in charge yes and she clearly agrees that from a business point of view yes but she wasn't satisfied she wasn't whole

[01:06:50] she wasn't happy necessarily right she did it the best way she could and that worked out well for everybody from a financial business point of view but from a power point build to where to we're at obviously

[01:07:21] there's a whole crew of people who've watched this the first three on netflix that have a feeling about the relationship between the two and maybe bringing in a new actress would have allowed them to take a different course of know that right so I don't think this undermines

[01:08:03] your kingpin you know the irony of them getting closer Vanessa and Wilson while Heather and Matt are clearly going to start splitting apart while one is becoming a hero one is becoming a villain it's always been the fun part of these two characters in

[01:08:34] when he's not kingpin right yes and and and Matt is tight with Heather when she thinks he's just Matt and now the reverse is happening on both sides where we can go with where we can go with all these relationships which again is now rebuilding for this new series is going to be a lot of all right we are going to end there we've got a little bit of comic book news before we wrap things up we'll be back in a second

[01:09:24] all right so I've got one really quick comic book connection here and I know this is one of your points so pipe in Kirk whenever you book book book book wasn't a

[01:09:54] British character he was an American agent named bullet who is pulled in by kingpin to more or less do his bidding throughout and he has a very interesting relationship with daredevil to start with and then over the course of 40 years of being in the comic books he becomes a symbiote which I actually want you to talk about because I don't know about that rip at all although it's it's I'll add a show

[01:10:24] link that you can yeah he had well what happened was and I read one comic book and actually he was his dogs had the symbiote in it and I believe Carnage makes a call out to them and they leave the dog and they go and he be friends daredevil actually

[01:10:54] saves him at one point in the comic but but I think the interesting arc to this is that he was a part of the US government before that Wilson Fisk used as part of his underworld ties and so he was a villain throughout where it looks like this character has a little more complexity to it so he does note that when I brought you from this other world and we don't know what that other world is although

[01:11:24] we definitely know that it's not some straight lace suit sort of world so I'll be curious to see what this buck what what his hopefully we get to vet out his past because I'm intrigued I'm interested to find out that was interesting too that he's I guess he's had some relationship with the character Bullseye as well yeah yes and also Typhoid Pairi too so there

[01:11:54] are lots of little connections to characters that we've seen with some of the other defenders so but then he also I think became a hero yes well so so I believe here I got to know here that he he ends up working with Hank Pym has a group called the lethal lethal legion team oh yeah the anti ultra lethal legion well that's it that rolls right off that had to be the 90s

[01:12:24] that sounds like actually that sounds like image people writing I believe that's in the 2020s to be honest oh my gosh but I the one point at the end of this he does befriend daredevil because daredevil protects his son helps protect his son right who's involved in all of this so so there is an interesting arc for Buck in the comics that may or may not relate to who we get to see in however long this born again series goes we know we've got two seasons of it so

[01:12:54] will he will he be yeah will he move will he slide one way or the other yeah it's so but the actor's great his interviews if you ever get to see him there's a red carpet interview of him where he's just enthralled with playing this character and being part of the MCU and earnestness of that I just I love about the characters they get the characters they get for the show there's a gratefulness to being part of this cast that I

[01:13:24] think enhances everybody's role so all right we're gonna end that um there and I guess we're heading towards the end of the show I just wanted to point out that we had to talk just a second Avengers Doomsday cast announcement with oh gosh we've never talked about that so that was pretty cool um and I think you know there was there was some you know some social media reaction was negative but man that was the most brilliant

[01:13:53] thing they've they've done recently I mean you know Marvel just really had everybody's attention for the whole day I mean there was nothing but live streams going on TikTok and everything else all day long and um I think it was it was a fantastic way to do this I don't think it's I don't think they'll repeat it but I think um it was a brilliant master stroke of marketing uh that just owned the day oh and um the fact that they showed us all of those

[01:14:23] chairs focuses everybody's attention on all the names on the backs of those chairs knowing full well the way Marvel does things that there are certainly people that are going to be in this movie that they haven't mentioned yet or will mention it until the movie comes out so at CinemaCon which was this weekend Kevin Figge spoke and clarified that there are more cast to be announced and we knew that because we knew that a number of the original uh six Avengers were were already signed on to come back but um that uh they weren't in the

[01:14:53] chairs so and then I guess there's been a number of actors too that are still in negotiations who said you know they're planning on being in it or whatever but they're not it's not official yet like um Halle Berry uh Storm so uh they just haven't signed that yet so they can't put them in that kind of thing so um and I think they don't want to give away the story too much so they don't want to tell too much about who's going to be there the the addition of the Fantastic Four just in the overarching part of the MCU

[01:15:22] sort of shifted everyone away from the X-Men discussion so having Patrick Stewart and having Kelsey Grammer yeah and these older X-Men uh no mention of um Wolverine no mention um Deadpool no mention of the first class of X-Men just lends me to think we're going to get to see them at some point and either they haven't negotiated with them yet or they're not going to be in this

[01:15:52] specific movie so yeah I mean you've got two two movies back to back that are based on stories that are so large and so sweeping and involve the entire MCU in the books well in a rich history too where you can pull from an 80s version and you can pull from a teens version because I wasn't familiar with the one that you talked about last week the current version where doom sort of has that

[01:16:22] yeah well or of the the secret wars that runs out time runs out storyline the time runs out storyline yeah yeah so which is a bit it's a bit chaotic I've got all the trades recently and reread them and it's a bit all over the place but but it does I mean it does end up boiling down to to basically a consistent story but sure you know get into it too much but yeah but I think

[01:16:51] it feeds into doomsday really well in other words they've set and the thing that's great too is they've set things up like in marvels the the end credits did you see that movie yes the end extra credit scene where photon ends up going through to the x-men universe yeah it just and those are the x-men that are in in this doomsday

[01:17:21] so there's in the storyline of times running out you've got we see kelsey grammar in that right right correct yeah the last two universes are the mcu well in this in the comic book it's 616 but and this other universe and they're going to collide and that'll be it for the whole the rest of the all the other universes are gone and i think that's basically what the story is going to be you know you're going to have the x-men

[01:17:51] universe basically getting ready to have an incursion which is what they call it in the mcu with with the mcu universe and so initially you'll have these two universes fighting with each other and then realizing that you know the bigger issue is doom who's kind of orchestrating everything well i am just intrigued with who christopher evans is going to be um i've never heard i've never heard

[01:18:21] him called christopher before you listen they've earned this place in my heart there you go yeah i i i think there are lots of speculation on that um my guess is he'll just be uh a captain america from that universe from that x-men universe you don't think he'll be you think he's going to be evil that he's going to be the hydra cap and i mean maybe but i don't i don't think so

[01:18:51] i think you're just going to have two universes of heroes and each one thinks they're fighting to save their their universe i would be happy i would be happy and content if he was the older version that we see um at the funeral like i'd be happy as him in a mentor role like i i i just i'm happy he's going to be in it i think adding adding the potential that he could be johnny a johnny storm somewhere or even a johnny storm we get a johnny storm version of him and there might be

[01:19:21] a fantastic four in that universe right so i don't think i think it's i wouldn't say it's clear but to me it seems pretty obvious that the fantastic four is coming from another universe right right third universe that is actually gets destroyed yes and through through this process and and uh they escape to the mcu so they but that doesn't mean there isn't a fantastic four and a reed richards and johnny storm

[01:19:51] and all that from the other universe well you know pretty kong you can't control so uh the

[01:20:20] marvel news it's going to be seeping out over the course of the next two or three months prior to this fantastic four movie and perhaps um which would lend itself

[01:20:50] to a galactic like figure which i can't wait to see i cannot wait to see the big question there has always has been you know is is is that character going to consume planets or consume consume universes right and he's consuming universes then he kind of might be the the one a one single character that exists through all universes right but if he's a world eater

[01:21:20] then like he is in the comics then most likely every universe has that character yeah yeah it'd be interesting to see how to handle that the heroes but it is in my book because the people who work in in the ERs and in these crisis and these trauma centers are unbelievable the doctors the nurses the

[01:21:49] attendings everybody and I can't recommend this show enough it's so brilliantly done it's it's created by some of the creators of ER including the original actor Noah Wiley who plays the lead and it's it has this really unique cool format where each episode represents one hour in the shift of

[01:22:19] this ER so it's a 15 hour shift and there's 15 episodes and while we were recording I've gotten several texts all from I've got a sports text thread and everyone's probably all of those texts I'll tell you what it starts with the first text I got was holy shit there's a blank episode of the pit and it is harrowing

[01:22:49] and the whole time we've been recording which probably explains some of that explains it I've been pondering what you said about this 24 style of hour by hour by hour thinking how the hell does that work so I'll talk to you about it off air but I I am going to charm so I don't know if you know what the blank is but the minute we

[01:24:07] can know so well written so highly recommend everybody I love this for Noah Wiley who as a young actor was in this massive serial of VR and one of the continuous actors throughout all of these other people leaving and seeing him get this opportunity to take a swing at a more authentic character on max where he can you can portray everything

[01:24:37] that you're saying in a much more realistic way is fantastic because he's taken some strange swings over the years in some series that I've liked and enjoyed but haven't made him a part of the big huge attraction and social media hype has been

[01:25:07] from the medical profession people are saying how authentic it is nurses doctors that say this is so relatable the actors and the producers have been distancing themselves I saw a video clip of Noah Wiley in a hospital in Pittsburgh I think the hospital they modeled this after and you can tell you can tell that there has been a I think the best series always have an

[01:25:37] interconnectedness with the topic that they're covering and this out did

[01:26:07] they're so you let's take a bet which do you think it is well it's funny because when I posted that I was like well it's got to be so initially I would say Isle of Joy however I think Bernthal is going to be in this next episode yeah if bernithal's in this episode i'm going with straight to hell i would say i think it's straight to hell i think it's straight to hell because

[01:26:37] the isle of joy is more the completion you know i mean you you you and and i think straight to hell is you know he's he's now fully daredevil and and fisk is fully kingpin and we're going straight to hell so that's my guess if you'd like to join the conversation you can find all of our contact information at podcastica.com where you'll also find links to our social media pages

[01:27:03] and to all of our shows if you'd like to send a message you can leave a message at the podcast facebook site or email or send a voice message to talk at podcastica.com and some of our most recent podcasting shows i'm just going to focus on on really one right now because we are heading on april 13th is the premiere of the last of us in our our benchmark series which used to be called the

[01:27:27] walking dead cast is now called the cast of us for the last of us they just re-released and and i would say this is a somewhat spoilery show because it is uh we have jason and eric talking about the game they did their first walk through the game uh back in 2020 when the last of us 2 was released which this season is is centered on uh so they re-released that episode and also released an

[01:27:52] episode with uh i believe it was jason eric and ben who were a part of the the cast of us this the last of a season talking about what they think is going to happen in season two so highly recommend the benchmark series uh did a fantastic job with the season one which seems like 17 years ago when when they came absolutely fantastic uh gut-wrenching captivating performances off the hook writing

[01:28:18] just riveting um the the environment the special effects um the sets yeah well they did the the executive producers are also uh the creators of the game so as we mentioned with the pit it's interrelated to they they didn't step away from the game they they owned into it so they leaned into it so

[01:28:41] really looking forward and having now played the last of us game um both part one and part two uh it yeah i'm really looking forward to it and i'll leave it at that very cool and if you'd like uh if you like what we do give us a five star rating a review or a like and follow and subscribe on facebook instagram and patreon you can find all of that information in our show notes as well as podcastica.com

[01:29:09] thanks for listening and we'll see you next week peace to second to last next to uh um to the dooms

[01:29:56] what's his name the guy playing doom robert downey jr well our brain power is just oh my god there are people listening right now that are like these guys they're so old and so demented you don't think that we're gonna say okay but they i was gonna send in a comment but fuck that sure