"Exodus" (The Handmaid's Tale S6E8)

[00:00:00] Hmm? Ah! Oh. Oh. You are my wife now. Your place is in this house. You have nowhere to go. You are under my- Under your what?

[00:00:32] Under your what? Your rule? What are you going to do? Cut off my finger? Beat me with a belt? Because all of that, all of it has happened to me before. And I will survive it. And I will survive you. I think to survive.

[00:01:21] Hey everybody. Welcome to our podcast. I'm Wendy. And I'm Jason. And I'm May. And this is The Handmaid's Tale Podcast. This week we're covering The Handmaid's Tale Season 6 Episode 8, Exodus. And Daphne has exited. She's out this week and we have May filling in. Welcome to the podcast, May. Great to have you here. Welcome, May. Thank you. I'm very excited to be here.

[00:01:47] You may recognize May's voice because you've been calling in for a while, right? How far back? I can't remember if I started listening after season 2 or 3, but I think I ended up catching up a couple of seasons in. And it's been really enjoyable to listen to you guys and kind of start sharing within the conversation. You guys do such a good job of involving the fans. Thanks. So it's really fun.

[00:02:14] We, I mean, season 3 actually is when Podcastica started. Kristen started it and then it was Lizzie and Diana and then Daphne and Wendy and I picked up with season 4, I believe. And we've been going the last three. And I remember, yeah, you calling in all the way back on this show and a bunch of other shows. I'm curious to get a few words from you on what it's been like to be a fan of this show. I love the show because I do have, I guess a personal connection to it in the sense that

[00:02:43] it was originally filmed in Hamilton, which is where I live. So the original house is like five minutes away from my, from where I live. I can just walk down the street and see like the old Gilead. You could put on your red cloak and just walk down the street. Do you mean the Waterford house? Yeah. So they film a lot of it in Hamilton, which is where I'm from. Wow. You have to send some pictures. Yeah. I could go to the original house and send you guys some pictures. That'd be cool. And I'm sorry, where is Hamilton?

[00:03:13] Hamilton's about 70 kilometers west of Toronto, if you're familiar with Toronto. Okay. Yeah. I'm not, but that's what it is. Okay. Yeah. So it's fun, especially in the later seasons when you see them coming into Toronto and talking about Canada to kind of see that. But I feel a connection to it. I just, I think the subject line, I was born in Syria and you know, with, with everything

[00:03:39] that's happening there, you can draw a lot of parallels to, you know, real world events and what's happening in the, in the Handmaid's Tale, not just, you know, what's happening in the U S but also from my background. And I don't think I would have watched it if it wasn't for you guys. I think I've heard of you talking about it. That's what got me into the show. Oh, you were watching something else that we were doing. Uh, I think I found you guys from, um, Game of Thrones. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. That's what I recognize your name from.

[00:04:08] Um, I'm not real familiar with what's happening in Syria. I know there's always something, but is it a theocracy? I don't know what it is anymore. Um, I mean, there was a revolution where we're very religious group took over at this point. And I don't know if they're just pretending not to be a theocracy and trying to get the people to like them. But like, even you see it in the Handmaid's Tale where there's a lot of revenge that's

[00:04:37] taking place because people were oppressed for so long and now they're coming out and going against different groups and there's a lot of, um, little groups fighting each other. And it's just come to a point lately where I stopped watching the news cause it became so depressing. I couldn't sleep anymore. Yeah. So I sort of turned it off because I just couldn't take it anymore. I wish I had some like magic power where I could just make everyone forget all their resentments in all the world and start over, you know?

[00:05:07] Yeah. It's so sad to see all this fighting everywhere. That happens so often. Like it happened in Eastern, um, Europe when, after the, um, Nazis were overthrown, it happened a lot of infighting and like the example that I always use is India. Like they fought so hard for their independence from Britain.

[00:05:37] And as soon as they got it, probably even before that their whole country was ruptured. It just goes to show that you can't go back. Like when something happens, when your country is overtaken by something, hello, United States. You can't go back. It's never going to go back to the way it was. You can only hope to move forward. And I think the old regime in Syria did such a good job of dividing people and just pitting

[00:06:04] them against each other that nobody trusts anybody in Syria, I think. So you just see people who like everybody's afraid of their neighbor kind of thing. Um, and I think that's what keeps it going. But again, that's just my personal opinion and my personal take of what's going on. Sure. Yeah. It is sad though. Yeah. Are you in Canada? You live in Canada? Yeah. I live in Hamilton. That's good. I'm glad. Me too. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:06:31] I saw your new prime minister with Trump and he, he was, you know, trying to work with him, but also made it very clear. We are not for sale and we're never going to be for sale. And Trump, you know, okay, great. Bubble bubble. And he goes, never say never, by the way. And he was like, never. Yeah. Yeah. Which was pretty great. Good for him. I can't stand it. Yeah. I really liked who we elected. And it's kind of funny that, um, I don't know if he would have been elected if Trump didn't become president.

[00:06:59] I think it was a reaction. Yeah. Yeah. That's what's happening all over the world. In Australia too. We're a warning. Yep. Hey, if there's something good coming out of all. Thanks guys. Yeah. Yeah. Totally. I have one more question. Sure. Do you know where they're filming new Bethlehem scenes? I don't know. Actually. I didn't look that up. Yeah. I don't. Yeah. I'm not sure. I think it might be New England somewhere, but I don't know for sure. I thought it was in the U S.

[00:07:29] Yeah. Yeah. It looks very U S. Yeah. Mm hmm. All right. Thank you. You're welcome. All right. Um, so overall thoughts for this episode, may what are you're a guest? What are your thoughts of this episode? Um, I loved it. I've been loving this whole season so far. Um, I was really expecting to have so much action and like bombings and, and stabbings, but it was just quiet and tense.

[00:07:57] And just, you know, I was at the edge of my seat the whole time. You're waiting for your favorite character to die, but then nobody died. And I'm just waiting for someone we love to go. Someone died. Well, not nobody we love. Yeah. Nobody we love. Yeah. That's a better, yeah. Like I'm just expecting someone to go and I'm waiting for it to happen any minute. And it hasn't happened yet, but yeah, it's been fantastic. I really liked the episode. Are you expecting anyone in particular?

[00:08:26] Um, I'm going to talk about that. And one of my points. Okay. Uh, yeah. I also felt like. Expectations were subverted in this one. I thought it was going to be a big attack and it was a lot quieter and I kind of loved that, you know, it's a lot of. It's, uh, not to get too much into it, but the idea that they're going to go back to their homes and kill the commanders in their sleep, in their beds just feels right somehow. Yep.

[00:08:55] Versus some big explosion or poisoning or something like that. Poison is a woman's weapon. I was just thinking that. They already did that though, you know, at the Jezebels. Uh, I think in season three, they poisoned a bunch of people. So I, a bunch of commanders. So I think that's one reason why they wouldn't do that again. Just dramatically. I wondered why they wouldn't poison them too, but then I guess you don't want to poison everybody. They're just targeting specific people that they want to kill. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:09:23] I was thinking that too, just put rat poison in the cake, but they don't necessarily want to kill everyone. But I do think it's just dramatically. They didn't want to repeat the same plot point that they did before, but, uh, I thought it was such a good episode and, uh, felt more of that. It felt more like handmaid's tale to me than any episode this season. For some reason, I don't know if it was just because it was in Gilead and you saw the handmaids or what, but I think that's probably why it just took place more in the world of the early handmaid's tale episodes.

[00:09:52] But anyway, I loved it. What'd you think? I loved it. Uh, again, it was not what I expected. Bell's death was not what I expected. I feel like nothing was, but I did love it. I loved, it was like watching like an opera or an orchestra or a musical or something. It was so ornate.

[00:10:16] Every scene was really ritualized and beautiful and cinematography was amazing. Um, so I really loved it and I just can't wait to watch the next one. I know. It was very regal. It almost looked like an inauguration, like the way they had them seated and facing everybody like a king and queen. Yep. Yeah. Yeah. Very fitting for Serena's wedding. Absolutely. All right. Great.

[00:10:46] Let's get started with our points, May. Um, so my first point is the title, which is Exodus. And I thought it was very interesting. Um, and I started thinking about like the biblical implications of Exodus and, um, how the Israelites kind of escaped from Egypt. So they were enslaved by, uh, Pharaoh and they were led by Moses and it happened, uh, uh, with a slaughter of the first sons of Egypt.

[00:11:14] And the way that the Israel, the Israelites escaped is by, um, being given these instructions to, to kill a lamb and eat it a certain way, prepare it a certain way, and then mark, um, their doors with, uh, blood so that the angel of death would pass by and not kill their firstborn. Um, so this was the 10th plague. Um, and then, um, after this happened, the Pharaoh let them go and they were led by Moses and, and they ended up escaping.

[00:11:43] So I compared it to what happened in this episode. Um, and the handmaid's attire, um, you know, it was representative of blood. And then, uh, we have the slaughter of the commanders, which, um, allows them to kind of escape and be, uh, relieved from their, or they escaped the enslavement, um, by Gilead. Uh, and you were asking me, Jason, about who do I think is not going to make it?

[00:12:09] Moses didn't actually make it to the promised land because he became proud. Um, and so God punished him by not allowing him to, um, and he was leading them. And I was thinking that Jude is leading, June is leading everybody. And I do think that she has a sense of pride in how she's leading everyone. And it made me wonder if she will actually make it out alive from the cities. That would be a crazy. I hadn't even considered that.

[00:12:38] I hope you're wrong about that. I hope so too, but, but you can do it. Yeah. Yeah. I don't think there's any givens, you know, I think anybody, it could be anybody. I mean, I'm really glad you brought that into because, uh, it's quite a, like the title really calls it out for some explanations. That was cool. Yeah. At this point though, everybody on my list is going to die. So don't, I wouldn't be surprised if anybody dies.

[00:13:07] I'm just emotionally preparing myself. Let's see if I had to guess. Uh, I mean, really there's, there's Moira, there's Luke, there's, uh, Nick, there's June and Janine are the, oh yeah. Lawrence. Lydia. I really want Lawrence to make it out. Uh, Lydia. Yeah. She'll make it out. Uh, so I think it's going to be Luke. That's who I would guess if I had to pick one.

[00:13:36] You think it's just going to be one? No. Um, if I had to pick another one, I'd say Janine. Although I hope she makes it. And then next. I don't know. I think, I think Serena will make it out. Hmm. I don't know. I could see Serena. I mean, things could go, things could go anyway with people. You're right.

[00:14:06] But I, but I could see Serena making some grand gesture and saving somebody or, or, you know, doing something for the rebel side and dying. I could see that. I think that actually I could see that for Nick. Yeah. Same. Although I, I feel like Nick shaping up to be the villain. I don't know. That would be a brave move for the show.

[00:14:33] And I think fitting, but, but I think he's going to be hero. I like Nick. I know you love Nick. I mean, I, I, I like the character, but yeah, I don't. I don't even think he's that great a character. Usually like if there's some good villain, like Walter White, I'm like, yeah, he's one of my favorite characters, even though I would not want to be anywhere near him. But with Nick, I'm just like, Hmm.

[00:15:01] I feel like the show, if it's a villain, they, they show us they're a villain. We're like with Lawrence and Nick, they're just so laid back. Like I don't think of them as villains. They do bad things, but I don't think of them as. I think maybe that's kind of the point of Nick where they kept his, he's mysterious and that's the appeal for a lot of people. Right. But they did that.

[00:15:27] They kept, they had him keep his thoughts to himself because they want people to have the same experience as June, where you kind of fall for him. And then you look back once he reveals his true colors and go, Oh yeah, he was a commander that whole time and he could have left and he didn't. And how did he rise to become from a driver to commander? He had to do some things. So I guess I'm like June, I fell for it, fell for it. That's what I think. But I don't know. We'll see.

[00:15:58] All right. Jason, your next point. I want to talk about the handmaid's clothes. And I really thought that the reason why June and Moira didn't show up in their handmaid attire was because they wanted to make a spectacle of it. And boy, was I right. And it was even better than I expected.

[00:16:21] It was so good with, uh, radio heads, the national anthem playing and June giving this voice over while the, they sewed the clothes. And I think the point of making the clothes was to sew the little pocket to carry the knives. And, um, I'm going to read June's voice over. She says they wanted us to look like we'd been dipped in blood, some fairy tale figure in a red cloak.

[00:16:48] It seems ridiculous now to contemplate how important clothes were to us before big closets full of them. We took jobs. We hated just so we could buy more of them. So we could be fashionable. We couldn't figure out how to get rid of them. So we threw them in landfill fills. We poison the water. We brought on ecological collapse all because we believe that these garments that we put on our bodies told the world who we were. It was a lie. A lie Gilead believed too. They assigned us colors.

[00:17:17] They dictated what we wore, who we could be. They used our clothes to divide us, to dehumanize us. But tonight those robes will be our weapons. Tonight we will use these robes to start a war. And I thought it was really interesting that she added that part about clothes pre Gilead with some judgment to it. Uh, and I don't know if I fully understand why they added that in there, but it feels like

[00:17:44] it's something about how even pre Gilead America wasn't as free as they thought because they were trapped in this capitalist grind and, and that led to waste and environmental damage just so they could, um, be what they thought they had to be instead of just being what they actually were. Um, and, um, that even before Gilead, there were symptoms of control, but they just looked prettier and easier, more palatable.

[00:18:09] Um, but then there's Gilead where the clothes are clearly oppressive and overtly limiting and dehumanizing. And now this episode where they're going to use their clothing to reclaim their power. And I think it's great to bring back the imagery of the handmade because it's the handmaid's tale. And we haven't really seen a lot of that in a while. So to see so many of them close to the end here is a good idea for this show.

[00:18:33] Um, and then at the very end, uh, of the episode, June comes back in voiceover as the handmaids all walk out in formation and says, they put us in red, the color of blood to mark us. They forgot that it's also the color of rage. Oh no, that wasn't at the very end. That was still at the beginning. And then at the end, she says, uh, we took the clothes they used to enslave us, to liberate us. The dress became our uniform and we became an army. And, uh, my thought was, I want to see that right now. Like it's no fair. We don't get to watch it.

[00:19:03] But, um, and then having radio heads national anthem is great. Even just that title, it's kind of ironic and subversive, I think, cause national anthem symbolizes pride in a country, but they're here. It's about revolt. So, uh, it's their own personal national anthem, I guess. So pretty well done. I very much enjoyed it, even though I didn't, I don't know if I fully understood it. What didn't you understand?

[00:19:27] Well, I, I mean, I said what I thought kind of about why they were talking about why she was talking about what was bad about clothes in pre Gilead. But, um, I feel like there's more to it than what I could glean out of that. I mean, I think we're meant to believe that the world before Gilead wasn't great. You know, I mean, the fertility rates were dropping.

[00:19:57] Because of pollution. And there was a lot that was wrong with it, but it wasn't, you know, Gilead was the over correction that no one needed. Yeah. So that's kind of what I took it. And I. It's told the story of. Yeah. What happened to the country. Yeah. And why it's just like now, do I think when Biden was in office that everything was great?

[00:20:24] No, I don't like this country has ignored like healthcare for decades. And, you know, just because what's happening now is really bad. Doesn't mean what was happening before was great. Yeah. Things led up to it. Yeah. Yeah. Clothing was actually one of my points too. And I was just trying to think about it, just the imagery that they were giving.

[00:20:47] But the way I thought of it is the way that society sometimes uses attire or clothing to oppress women. And, you know, previously it was like just wearing really tight clothing. So you couldn't move. It's being used in oppressive cultures, like a burqa, for example, where you can't see women, but also in modern society. And maybe like that's where June was talking about is over sexualizing women by the way they dress.

[00:21:14] So if you look at certain sports, for example, like volleyball, where women are wearing very little clothes and, you know, it's very restrictive probably so that you can't perform because you're worried about, you know, things showing. So that's where I take it. And as well as fast fashion, that's just, you know, killing the earth.

[00:21:34] And the way she was talking about it was not so much the over sexualization, though I do think you're completely right about that, but more like they felt like they needed it to prove or to show something about themselves, you know, like just pressure to look good. I guess that is, that is part of it. The, the over sexualization. Pressure to wear certain labels. That's a big thing. Yeah. In this day and age.

[00:22:00] And depending on what labels you're wearing puts you in different categories. Yep. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I just wear the same black t-shirt every day. Well, I also thought it was interesting. I don't know if you guys noticed, not just the handmaid attire, but Serena's attire is different. So in New Bethlehem, she's dressed in pink, but I think around the wives now, she's dressed in this like baby blue. Sure.

[00:22:29] And she was also dressed in, I think it was a baby blue at the wedding, but I didn't know what that meant at all. Little by little, she's becoming more Gilead. She starts out in jeans and a white top on the train and little by little, she. I mean, I almost think it's the opposite. Like she's trying to step away and change, but it's not really enough, you know, like she is trying, but it's, it's so pathetic.

[00:22:57] And yet you got to give her some credit for at least trying. At least that's how I feel. I'll just continue talking about that a little bit too. I timed that opening montage was almost eight minutes of no real speaking scenes. We had the June voiceover, which was fabulous, but it was just so beautiful and orchestrated so wonderfully.

[00:23:22] Like I said, it really seemed like an opera or a musical or something like that. And it goes from beginning with the dying of the handmaid's tale red outfits and goes all the way through June arming all of the handmaids. And then the, the, one of the last things we see is Nick and Rose walking down the aisle.

[00:23:46] And then we see Serena and Gabriel, just like King and Queen holding court. And the handmaid's tales are all the subjects, I guess. And it was such a long opening scene, but I loved it. And it said so much and really put us in the mood.

[00:24:05] I couldn't help, but realize that the, the, the scenes of Serena walking down the aisle and you can see both sides of the wedding. And also the scenes filing into the dining room seemed very Nazi Germany ish to me. In fact, they had like a fuzz over them, like a, like a haze.

[00:24:32] And I think that was really supposed to give us this old world feel that it really reminded me of that. Yeah. It's, I mean, it's, this show has always been really interesting that way because it is very beautiful and appealing, but also feels so limited, restricting, oppressive. Same time. I thought it was cool. I don't know if you noticed, but all the handmaids were actually facing like the same way when they did the shots from up top, except for June.

[00:25:01] She was looking to the side and she was looking at Nick. Like she was the only one out of line. Yeah. There were a couple of scenes like that where you could see she was kind of making herself conspicuous, you know? And it made you worry. That's the other thing. I was on the edge of my seat for this entire episode. Oh yeah. Such anxiety. Yeah. Like such anxiety. In a great way. Yeah. Yeah. I like, yeah, me too.

[00:25:25] And I noticed like, because they're all so uniform in dress and also formation that, and they have these long bonnets on that. If one of them is looking around, it's really conspicuous. You can see like, what's that? What's going on with that over there? Like when they were passing around the knives and that one drops it. It's like, oh no. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:25:50] Or I mean the whole, I know we'll get into it, but the whole thing with Serena over there talking to all the handmaids and, and you know, that scene was set up just for the purpose of making us feel like June's going to start lunging at her any second. And then she's like, oh, we, I want to see you with your, your faces. And it's like, yeah. June's not known for her impulse control. Yeah, exactly. I was actually thinking that Elizabeth Moss is doing a lot of eye acting this time because her face is covered.

[00:26:19] So you just see her eyes like going up. I know. Yeah. I know. I mean, she's known for the face acting and now she had to restrict it to just eyes. And I mean, she could just probably do it with just her eyebrows or one eye probably. All right. Back to you, May. So my next point is about Aunt Lydia, who's my least favorite character. And I actually hate every single scene she's in.

[00:26:44] But it got me kind of curious when she was supposed to go somewhere and Lawrence was assigned her to the human reallocation project. But then she doesn't do it. She's still that she comes to the wedding and kind of figures things out. And then she goes back to the handmaids and then she was giving them that big speech. And I looked up what the big speech was that she was giving them. And it was, Oh Lord, God of vengeance, show yourself.

[00:27:13] And it's taken from Psalm 94.1. And it's a prayer plea asking God to reveal his justice and to intervene on behalf of those who are suffering and against those who are doing wrong. So the O Lord, God of vengeance refers to God's attribute of punishing evil and rewarding righteousness. And then the second part talks about or asks God to rise up, judge the earth and bring justice to the proud. And I'm quoting this from research I did.

[00:27:43] These are not my words. And the psalm acknowledges the wickedness of humanity and their tendency to think that God does not care or see, but reminds them that God is all knowing and all seeing. And I'm trying to get into Lydia's head and figure out who does she think is suffering in this case? And who does she think is righteous? To me, it seems like she thinks that the commanders are suffering and the handmaids are the righteous.

[00:28:10] And she tries to pull out Phoebe and she's trying to, you know, kill her. And that was so nerve wracking. Wait, the handmaids are righteous? That's what I think she thinks in that moment. Because she's bringing up. One line was he who knows all, shall he not punish the wicked? So I, and the handmaids were sort of cowering. So I thought she was scolding all the handmaids, but you think she was just aiming it specifically at Phoebe?

[00:28:35] I think she was aiming at all of them with her, like with Phoebe's leadership and the handmaids that she thought that they were, they didn't think God, God cared about them and that they were trying to, you know, take justice into their own hand. Okay. So when you say righteous, that's a bad thing. Like wicked, wicked. Yes. You're saying the handmaids, she's saying the handmaids are wicked. Okay. Yeah. Like they think they're right or they're being righteous. Self-righteous. Yeah. So that's like, that's where it bothers me.

[00:29:01] I don't think Aunt Lydia has, I don't know what her intentions are, but it really bothers me when I see her because she doesn't care. It feels like she doesn't care about the handmaids. And it's shown when like Moira gets up and she's like, who are you? And she's like, I'm Moira. And she's like, who are you? And she doesn't remember who they are. The only person she cares about is Janine. And she only lets them go when she sees Janine. So that's a nitpick I have too.

[00:29:28] It's like, it seems like in this season, I love Janine, but people are only doing things if Janine's involved. And I don't know why that's happening. And I'd love to hear your thoughts about what you think of Lydia, because I don't know. I feel like they've obviously been trying to show an arc for Lydia. And I'm not sure it's completely landed. Because she has flip-flopped a hundred times this season.

[00:29:57] And just in this episode, she flip-flopped back and forth, back and forth. I mean, I guess we need to watch the next two episodes to see where we end up. But I think it's obvious they're trying to show us this conflict within Lydia, this revelations that she's coming to. But I'm not sure that it's completely landed. I think it has been a little confusing for me.

[00:30:26] I do like her character. I do think she's fascinating and interesting. But I do feel like, you know, I just don't know what her motivations are, what she's thinking right now. I think I get it. And so that was part of it. Go, go, Jason. I mean, I just think she's very pious. And that she, when she started out with all of this, she was a believer. She believed in everything that she was doing.

[00:30:53] And she's a bit like Wharton, who I'm sure we're going to talk about, who I think they do some really horrible things. But they feel like it's in the name of God. And so they feel righteous in doing what they're doing. They feel like this is what God wants. The difference between Wharton and Lydia is that Lydia's faith in that is being shaken.

[00:31:17] Like she, over the last couple of seasons, has been having doubts that what she's doing is really what God wants. And she still wants to do what God wants. So that's why I think she's kind of confused. But we've seen her a lot in the last couple of seasons in her unguarded moments because she's not at the Red Center whipping the handmaids into shape, which she still has to do, right? Every day. That's still her job, I think.

[00:31:45] But we're seeing her in other moments where she can be more vulnerable. And yeah, for whatever reason, she felt connected to Janine like she's a daughter. So she's more vulnerable with her. But here we see her yelling at these handmaids just like she was in the first couple of seasons. And that reminded me of her back then just with that harsh voice, you know? And like she might chop off one of their fingers right there or something. She was going to have the guard kill Aunt Phoebe right there.

[00:32:12] So she still got that access to that cruel streak. And that's because I think she's just – she's having some doubts, but she hasn't fully gotten to the place where she's like, okay, this is wrong. She's still not sure. She's trying to make it right.

[00:32:31] I mean, it's like – it's why it's so hard to talk anyone out of changing their beliefs because they've already committed and done a lot of things in the name of those beliefs. And sometimes they've done things where if they were to change, they would have to realize, oh my God, I'm a horrible person. And that's when it's really hard to change, you know, with her. Like it would take a lot.

[00:33:00] And that's why I think here, you know, June comes in and she speaks to persuade Lydia to let everyone go. And she says, you know, you beat, tortured, and mutilated them and took their children away. And they were raped and you know it wasn't their fault. And they just want dignity and freedom. And she appealed to Lydia's faith. Would God want all of this? And could God empower you basically to bend towards the arc of light and help them?

[00:33:29] So she knows Lydia enough to know that Lydia still has this strong belief in God and wanting to do what God wants. And my sort of hang up with that whole approach of June's is I guess Janine must have told her Lydia's having a crisis of faith. Because otherwise, I don't see how June would have known that unless I'm forgetting something.

[00:33:51] And as far as June remembers, Lydia's just this really cruel person who you couldn't win over by trying to persuade her of something like that. So that's why the scene didn't quite work for me. But then again, June was with just with Janine. So maybe Janine told her, guess what? Lydia's been having doubts about Gilead. Maybe you can talk her into letting all the handmaids go or something like that. I don't know. But I don't know. Did that make any sense?

[00:34:19] I guess the reason why it bothers me is because almost in every episode, you see that Aunt Lydia sees the faults in what's happening. And you think she's going to change, but then she doesn't. She just keeps falling back into her old habit. Right. That's how I felt this episode when she immediately was going to NARC on June. I was like, what the hell? What are you doing after everything you've seen? It's a gradual process. Like I said. I guess.

[00:34:47] You know, if you're Lydia and you mutilated and killed and forced women to be raped, but you saw it all differently, that these were holy vessels and this was God's plan for them. And it was the best that they could hope to have in life, given their past and all that. And then you realized, oh no, that's none of that was true. So everything I did makes me a monster.

[00:35:14] Then it's hard to get your mind to go there and cross that through that veil into the light and see the light of what you did. You know, it's just really. I just think there's a lot of cases all around the world of people who don't want to change their beliefs because then they'd have to realize that, oh shit.

[00:35:36] I mean, I think that's why people stand by Trump when he just does fucked up thing after fucked up thing because it's cognitive dissonance. They can't let themselves see that. Oh my God, I went so far down this path and this guy's a monster. And there are some people, there's like MAGA deprogrammers and people who get out of it, but it's like a cult, you know? I think it might be a little bit of the opposite in that.

[00:36:00] I think Lydia knew what she was doing was wrong and she did it to survive. And then she ascribed this faith to make it livable for herself. And I do think that happens to people. We saw her, they made a point to show a flashback of her. Narking on her co-worker.

[00:36:30] I feel like she's just cruel. Like even when she went to Janine Jezebel's and she's trying to save her, she just slaps her because she doesn't like what she's saying. It's like, she just reverts to that. Like it's just what's programmed for her. She did that for a long time. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that comes not from her trying to get along to go along like Nick does. I think it was more just her strong belief, her faith, her version of it, you know? But whatever.

[00:37:00] Well, I mean, hope we get some clear answers. Because I do think it's a little, it's been a little murky, right? Her arc has been a little murky. Well, yeah. I mean, I kind of want to talk about the Testaments, but we can't really talk about it, right? Not here. All right, Jason. Next point. Okay. Let's see. The wedding.

[00:37:30] So, it was a big, beautiful church. There were so many handmaids. I didn't expect to see that many. I mean, Wharton said there would be some handmaids there, but it was like all of them. And I was sort of thinking it would actually be, you'd think it'd be a higher security event where they would really, if this is like the lead commander, but I guess dramatic license.

[00:37:58] They don't check and make sure everyone's on the up and up. I think, I thought it was good that we didn't know the plan ahead of time because then we're wondering what's going to happen. But when you have a caper like this, which is, I guess, a weird word to describe it considering the intensity, but, you know, a plan that people set out to do and they don't tell the plan ahead of time.

[00:38:23] That usually means it's going to work because if it's not going to work, then they'll tell it and then you'll see how it goes off what it was supposed to be. So, that's kind of what I was thinking this whole line. Like, whatever they're planning is going to at least work to some degree. But I was like, are they going to start attacking or what?

[00:38:43] And I was also thinking this is a really quick courtship because, and I was wondering if Gilead would look down on people getting married so quickly without knowing each other that long. I guess we don't really have a total. Well, they have a lot of arranged marriages where they've never even met each other before. That's a good point. It's probably completely normal. I won't tell you that my sister married her husband six days after she met him.

[00:39:12] How are they doing? They're great. They've been married for years. Yeah, it worked out. Yeah, I mean, I know it does actually work out a lot from what I understand, but you could be unlucky. Yeah. I also thought Serena should have gotten to know him clearly, right? We'll talk about that. She should have taken some time. Nick delivers the invocation and I'm thinking as he often is, he's being the dutiful servant of Gilead.

[00:39:41] Going along to get along, playing his part. Then the handmaids start passing knives up the rows and I wasn't exactly sure what was happening. And I'm still not 100% sure, but I guess it was that the handmaids at the, were they at the Red Center? Is that where they were all gathered? They, or just handmaids who weren't currently assigned, brought these knives to give to the handmaids that were assigned so they could go home and kill their commanders, right?

[00:40:06] Yeah, I had to rewatch episode seven because I was also very confused to hear the plan again. And they were saying that none of the handmaids would have knives. So June says, I will sew them into like the garments. And then that's why they were passing them on from the ones that were at the Red Center to the rest of the handmaids. So they do mention it. Oh, so we did hear the plan. I had to go back and watch it because I was so confused as to why didn't they just come with the knives? Why are they passing around these knives?

[00:40:36] But yeah, that's, that was part of the plan. Yeah. Oh, wow. Okay. I feel silly now, but anyway. So I sort of wonder, like, don't they have knives in the kitchen that they could just go grab? But it's not as dramatic, I guess. Maybe they just wanted to make sure they weren't like caught by a guard in the house or something. I don't know. Then we get cut to the reception. This was very much a subversion of my expectation.

[00:41:05] I thought we'd at least see some of the ceremony. And what we don't. And then there's more knife passing. And I thought something was going to happen at the reception. But it was a twist that for me anyway, that it was just the ceremony and the whole wedding was only for the passing out of the weapons. And then Serena and Wharton cut the cake. And so I think I might've missed something here too. But Moira said, how long is it going to take?

[00:41:35] And June said just one to two hours. They'll go home and they'll just fall fast asleep. And was that the only indication we had that they like spiked the cake or was there something else? So last episode, Lauren's hands, Rita, the medication that she puts into the cake because she agrees to bake the cake. Okay. Okay. Did we know overtly what that was about or only in hindsight? I think only in hindsight. I mean, I thought for sure it was poison, right?

[00:42:05] Yeah. Okay. That's what I thought at first. I was like, so it's some relaxant or something to put them to sleep, but it didn't seem that potent because Bell woke up just from a phone call. And I noticed Lawrence, of course, wasn't eating any cake, but he was encouraging Naomi to eat more cake. Yeah. That was kind of sinister. I was like, I thought, what does that mean? Does that mean he's going to kill her? I think he's just a bastard. Yeah. Yeah. I think.

[00:42:35] And no handmaids ate the cake, of course, even though they all got a piece, but they probably should have just tossed it in the dumpster on their way out. All of their mouths were covered too. Like, how were they expecting them to eat the cake? Yeah. They weren't. Yeah. They don't care. No. They just gave it to them like in a napkin. Just to look good. So I just, you know, sort of had a point covering the beginning of the wedding, which I just laid out. We could go on, but I'll pass it on to somebody else.

[00:43:04] I just thought it was interesting that the wedding was so bland. Like it was regal, but it was also very bland. Like nothing was happening. It was just boring. I've been to weddings like that. Yeah. In terms of security, I think they just don't think anything of the handmaid. That's why there wasn't much security around them and they could go about doing whatever. Makes sense. Yeah. But yeah, it was very confusing for me too.

[00:43:29] I agree that I was expecting like for a bloodbath, but I guess it makes sense that if there's all these people that are like the handmaids, that they would want them to go to sleep and then do it quietly. Yeah. I thought it works on narratively and practically. Narratively, I do think it's just more satisfying to think of these handmaids attacking their commanders in their homes where they've experienced all of this horrificness in their beds.

[00:43:58] And practically like, yeah, you can just sneak in each one in a hundred homes and do it. So I'm sure it won't go fully 100% fine, but we'll see what happens. Yeah. It never does. I wanted to make a big point about Serena and her arc in this episode, but I was just too angry with her. I couldn't bring myself to write it all out. I was like, yeah, she's stupid.

[00:44:27] And that's why this happened. You know, when she said, I'm so stupid to have done this, we're like, yes, you are. I was so mad. I guess the one question I had was, I did really enjoy Serena's talk about, I've survived all these things and I will survive you. And I really did like that. And I couldn't help but like be on her side with that, even though she's so stupid.

[00:44:57] Even when she went like, she talks to the handmaids and she's like, I'm like, oh, she's going to try to, you know, sort of be on their side. And she did try, but that's very much in quotes because she just showed what an asshole she is. Like giving them a talk about forgiveness and letting things go. Like now everything's going to be okay. Right. Because we're thanking you for your service and it's like, fuck you, you know?

[00:45:24] But then when she went home and she saw the handmaid there and was horrified, that's just being horrified is good. And then going over and asking her name and telling her run and get away from here. And she's a human being. She said, you know, all that stuff is, it shows that she has changed some. Yes. Not enough. No, not enough. Because one of the first thing that she says is, but I'm fertile.

[00:45:55] But what if you weren't fertile? Does that mean that's okay, Serena? Like you're still in it. You're still in Gilead. But that's still, that also shows. And I, I get, I think I get why she said that because it's like, you know, Wharton having a handmaid there when he has a fertile wife is a perversion of a perversion. It's already a perversion to think that handmaids are okay when you don't have a fertile wife. But that is the reason for it.

[00:46:24] And now he's like, eh, let's just have one. Even though I do have a fertile wife. It's like, that's not what it was for, but you're just like gaming the system. And it's even worse. I mean, it's all equally bad, but it's just, I could see her being shocked. Like, wow, we wouldn't even want a handmaid if I wasn't fertile, but I am. And you're still wanting one that's double fucked up.

[00:46:44] The other thing that I thought was interesting is in the last episode when, um, aunt Lydia hears that commander doucheball took Janine as a, um, handmaid. She says, but he's newly married. So there's that suggestion that when you're newly married, you don't take on a handmade right away. You wait a while before you do try to have a baby yourself. Exactly. Where he just like on his wedding night, he has a handmaid just waiting there. Yep. Yeah.

[00:47:12] And he knows that she's fertile, but he just wants a big family fast. That's some honeymoon there. Um, and I, so I, I did like her little speech that she made and I also, he seemed to let her walk right out the door. So I'm wondering. Yeah. Well, all that goes, because I didn't think he was. He was going to.

[00:47:37] My guess is he's going to kill her because he said, you've deceived me. And I still, I was sort of battling with myself over this, like Wharton, was he just hiding all of this? Who he really is.

[00:47:55] And now that he's got her trapped, he can reveal himself, I think a little bit, but more than that, I think the same thing I've always been thinking that he's just feeling so self-righteous and he thinks he's doing God's word. And like he said, I'm not someone to be, uh, what did you say survived? I'm a good man. That's how he sees himself.

[00:48:18] And so now after what happened tonight, where she told the handmaid to run away, when he said, you've deceived me. I think he thinks, okay, that's, she's transgressed against me and against God. And you can't get a divorce in Gilead. But as a commander, what you can do is send your wife to the colonies or kill them. Yep. I was wrong about Wharton, by the way. Or you thought he was a good guy?

[00:48:47] I thought that he was like genuinely just caring about his daughter and wanted like a good, um, environment for her because she was disabled and she wouldn't have survived Gilead otherwise. So I thought he was like trying to create new Bethlehem for her and that's why he had Nick there. But I don't know if you guys have seen the theories online too, that, um, Rose has been impregnated by him. Yeah. Hmm. Um, I don't know.

[00:49:18] I, I think he does want what's, I, I think he does want good things for Rose. But I don't think he's like, oh, that's why I'm in New Bethlehem. Cause he doesn't approve of that. No, he's just going along with that. Yeah. Um, I think since he started flirting with Serena, I've had my Spidey sense tingling. Oh yeah. I mean, just more than anything.

[00:49:43] Well, we really should know that if you're a commander in Gilead, you're probably a douchebag, but also narratively, it just seemed like the most exciting thing to happen. That he, you would put this guy in, have Josh Charles play him who has this really lovable face and have him turn out to be a total asshole. I mean, but also what is Serena thinking? He's, he is the head of Gilead. Yeah. If he wanted things to be different, they'd be different. Right.

[00:50:12] I mean, what did she think? She's so full of her son. He love bombed her. He did. But she drinks her own Kool-Aid. She thinks her power is never ending. You know? I think the reason I was fooled by him is that he didn't want to go to Jezebel's. Like he didn't believe, like the other commanders were doing it. Lawrence wasn't, but he didn't want Nick to do it. So you, you get these glimpses of like, no, maybe he is a good person and he did.

[00:50:42] That's why I, I think he is pious or at least in his own perverted way. Right. Yeah. Right. So it can manifest in some things that seem good. Yeah. Right. Jezebel's bad. Handmaid tales. Okay. Handmaids. Handmaids are good. Yeah. And that's what Lydia used to think and is changing. I think. Oh, and the idea of. Like.

[00:51:07] The, the idea of labeling that poor woman as like, this is the most fertile handmaid in Gilead. Oh, that just is so cringy. Yeah. I think hearing like of Gabriel again, or just the, of like the commander's name, it was just, it's very cringe. Yeah. Every little hint. Cause it was such, we called it misery porn in the first few seasons and it was so good to get out of that. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:51:37] Starting with like season four and now every little hint of it, it feels almost like a little tiny bit of PTSD. Like, Oh. And was it bell who was talking about the, the handmade who you just look at her and she drops twins or something like that. Yeah. Okay. And they're trying to make it more extreme, right? That's why they're trying to get rid of new Bethlehem. Yeah. They, they want that control. They just want to fool everybody to come back and then just re-imprison them.

[00:52:07] Yep. All right. I have no idea where we're at. I think it's my turn. Yeah. And that's okay. Because my point was Serena. That's okay. We're all melding. Do you have anything more about her? I was, um, so I looked up to see just cause it like, she's so clueless and it was frustrating. And, uh, I guess Freud described repetition compulsion, which is what she does. It's like, she does the same thing over and over again, expecting a different result.

[00:52:35] Um, and she doesn't know how to break free of her patterns. So she's rewriting a book. I think that's what she was doing. That's what, uh, June found when she was looking around. Um, she's trying to build new, uh, Bethlehem. She's hitched herself to a charming man thinking that he's going to be better. Obviously he doesn't turn out to be better. And, um, I don't know if she actually is going to end up breaking her cycle. Like she did go against not wanting to have a handmaid.

[00:53:04] I don't know if this is going to be a wake up call for her. I just, I don't feel like Serena can redeem herself to me. Um, I think she just passed out in a ditch somewhere with Noah crying. I don't know what's going to happen. Yeah. Where is she going to go from here? Like what she may not have much of a choice. You know what I mean? Cause you can't get a divorce. So her two choices are to flee Gilead or just go back and deal with Wharton. And she's got out before. And, but like, she just went back thinking, no, I can fix this. Yeah.

[00:53:34] And I think, I mean, she's like a Lawrence. They're the, they're the same in some ways. They feel guilty, but they think they can reform Gilead to be better. And, uh, Serena's reforms in my opinion would be kind of better, but they still suck. They're better for her, not for anybody else. I mean, if you're a handmaid, I would rather, and maybe you, either one of you could speak

[00:54:01] more to this, but instead of having to go to people's houses and be ritually raped, I'd rather go work at a fertility center. I guess my end rate once a month or yeah. Like, I don't know. Yeah. No, you, you wouldn't be raped once a month in new, in new, um, Bethlehem. That was my understanding is that they'd be like surrogates, but how is that going to happen if they don't believe in technology? That was my understanding. I think they were only talking about them working in the fertility center when they're retired

[00:54:29] and no longer fertile. I don't think they were talking about doing away with handmaids. Okay. Yeah. But at one point Lydia had, um, sourced the idea of keeping the, um, all the handmaids at the red center and the commanders would only come by once a month. Yeah.

[00:54:57] But I think, okay, maybe I'm wrong, but my, I thought Serena had decided she didn't want there to be handmaids anymore and that's why, you know, she liked New Bethlehem because there were no handmaids in there and she wanted to bring the retired handmaids to the fertility center and she wanted to start a fertility center so they could figure out how to solve the fertility problem without needing handmaids. That's what I thought. Maybe.

[00:55:24] But still, I mean, just the way she was talking to them, like, I mean, it was really delicious dramatically to have June sitting right there and Serena saying that, oh, I had a handmaid and I was not as nice to her as I could have been, but she wasn't very nice to me either. And it's like, you forced her to be ritually raped once a month. And so fuck you.

[00:55:52] And then to say, oh, but she forgave me and we're friends now. And I'm like, I'm pretty sure she said specifically, we're not friends and we will never be friends. And it was so funny because I could totally picture June just jumping out of her seat and lunging at Serena. Yeah. I love that she brought in Rita. Rita's like, keep your eyes on the prize. Like, do not listen to this. She's insane. She's looking right at June. My advice is to have a goal and keep your eye on the prize and don't attack anyone. Okay. Yep.

[00:56:24] Calm. Serenity now. That was a great scene. Also, Rita looked fantastic at that wedding. Yeah. Yes, she did. Your turn, Jason. Next point. Okay. Let me see if I had any more to say about Wharton because I feel like that deserves some unpacking. I mean, it didn't take any time for him to show us true colors after they were married. Two minutes to get to the house. Handmaid's right there.

[00:56:51] Um, and I just, I still can't decide if he thought, if he actually thought Serena would accept all this, but I do think he's so deluded that I think he did think she would accept it. Um, and then when he gets so pissed, what's wrong with you? And I was so stupid to do this again. Yes, you were. And, um, I was wrong about you. I thought you were a better man, but you're just like the rest of them. Um, I mean.

[00:57:20] And you could kind of understand why she thought he was a better man because she said, I want to be able to read. I want to be able to divide my time between houses. And he was all yes. He made that library for her. But, um, anyway. Yeah, I guess, you know what? We don't really need to go over all that because we did a pretty good job already. Uh, what about bell? So after the wedding, all the handmaids are marching to their homes, peeling off one by one and other great visual. And June, I'm like, where's she going? Oh yeah.

[00:57:49] She's going to save Janine. So she goes to bells. He's in his chair asleep from the sleep cake. And, uh, then the phone rang to wake him up. And was that just like a coincidence? It was weird. Cause. It was a warning. From who? I don't know if it was from aunt Lydia or somehow like aunt Lydia got the word out. But then he, what did he say? He's like, speak up. I can't hear you. So I don't, I, I kind of wondered if June set that up.

[00:58:16] No, she, she'd have no reason to, but maybe June wanted him to be awake. Anyway, I, what struck me about this whole sequence is how little dialogue there was. Uh, bell said June Osborne and she goes, nice to meet you. And then she took him out walking dead style. And then, then, um, Janine comes out and my first thought was, oh, I was wrong. I thought Janine was going to be the one to kill him. But anyway, she comes out and not much dialogue there either. She just goes June and June goes, hi.

[00:58:46] And Janine goes, thanks. That was really funny. And then I was thinking about who June has killed over the course of this series. I'm probably missing some, but commander Winslow at Jezebel's with a pen in self-defense that time. Oh, that was such a great scene. Then she let Eleanor Lawrence die because she was afraid if she didn't, that she would mess up her plan to smuggle these kids out of Gilead.

[00:59:15] So I don't know if that counts as killing someone, but she could have saved her. Um, she shot a guardian when the helping those kids escape and then a whole bunch of commanders. We don't know how many at Jezebel's in season four by poison. And then Fred Waterford in the season four finale. That's all I found. I, she must've killed somebody in season five, but there was that scene with, uh, what is the girl Esther?

[00:59:44] Who they like put her husband on this trial and then Esther killed while everyone else watched. And now bell. Yeah. I thought it was going to be way more gory than that. I said it was the opposite of Fred. Fred was like long and delicious and drawn out. And this one was shocking and abrupt, but I did love it. Yeah. It was good. Yeah.

[01:00:12] And he, I mean, he kind of, the way he struggled around a little bit. And he knew who it was. And I think that was important. Yeah. What'd you guys think of her doing it instead of Janine? I thought she was going to let Janine do it just to get her justice. Yeah. I kind of thought that would have been better, but it was fine. Yeah. I don't, I don't think Janine had any misgivings about that. I think it was good. She seemed good with it. It was a good team.

[01:00:43] Um, and that's all I had about anything. I thought, Oh, I thought it was kind of, um, interesting that, you know, when Lydia, when June talks Lydia basically into calming down and, um, then Lydia's hugging Janine and Janine hugged her back. And it seemed like Janine has some affection for her, which is weird, but those things can be really complicated.

[01:01:12] I saw it more as pity than affection. Like, I feel like she pitied her in that moment. Yeah. Yeah. It seemed to me like something that's just not that easy to label, but there's some bond there, even though Janine should just totally hate her. Yeah. I don't think they will kill Janine at this point. Like she survived so much for her to die at this point. I don't know. It would be cool. Yeah.

[01:01:39] That's kind of why, one reason why I wanted to live because she has gotten through so much. Yeah. I had a little bit more about Lydia. I did say like the flip flopping of Lydia. It felt like all episode, I was waiting for her to stop and do the right thing. And she just kept going back and forth.

[01:02:02] Um, I did think the scene was really powerful and that, you know, we're, we only have two episodes left and it was like, it was that chance for June to monologue to talk about really what's happened through the whole season. Everything she was saying are things that happened through the whole season.

[01:02:26] And so often we see all the Gilead people just ignoring the fact that these are fundamental wrongs. You know, they make excuses. They talk about faith. They use everything, every tool in their tool belt to make these heinous acts be right. And yet common sense knows that they're wrong.

[01:02:52] And June, just speaking those simple truths was really powerful because they weren't allowed to do that in Gilead. None of those handmaid tales can barely say, none of those handmaids can barely are allowed to speak much less speak these simple truths of what is right and wrong. And I, I did, I thought those were powerful words.

[01:03:16] And I guess probably the scene was manufactured to have that opportunity. So I appreciated that. Yeah. And you can see the fear in all the handmaids. The only people that spoke out were Moira who's been out and June. And it's because they, they know what's out there. So they felt brave enough to say it. Whereas the other ones were still had that fear. Even if he was scared. Yeah. Yeah. And crying when Lydia yells, some of them start sobbing even harder.

[01:03:47] And then the only other note I had was like, when I was writing my notes, I called Serena DeLulu, Selina. I was like, she's just delete delusional. Yeah. That was it. I had a couple of notes. One of them is a question. Who was in the last scene with the handmaid? I couldn't see it. And the, the commander that was passed out. Do we know who that was? What do you mean? When at the very end?

[01:04:15] No, at the very, very end. As the, like they're showing the handmaids are free. They left. And there is one handmaid standing and there was a commander that was kind of passed out. But I couldn't tell who the handmaid was and who the commander that was passed out was. You mean when they were all like going to their separate houses? After that. So after Aunt Lydia. After she let them go. I'm not sure. Yeah. I don't know. I have to go back and watch it. The last thing I remember is.

[01:04:45] Now I'm curious. Them going off to war. I just thought, yeah. Like June saying, we wore these uniforms. Now they're, you know, we're going, we're an army or whatever she said. Yeah. And then they show one handmaid. After that. Yeah. Oh. With one commander. But I couldn't tell who it was. I don't know. That's okay. I didn't know if it was Nick or Wharton. And I was like, hmm. I wonder, I wonder who's going to die. Like which commanders are they taking out? Are they taking out everyone? Are they taking out everyone? Now I gotta go back and look at that right away.

[01:05:14] I mean, I know Nick likes to watch his figure, so I don't think he had any cake. I didn't see him eating cake. I was, I was waiting for it to see if I saw it. But it's the, it's the very last scene. And he wasn't, he was drinking. I'll have to go watch that again. That's what he was doing. Yeah. I don't know. Yeah. Any other notes, Nick? Nobody's mentioned Hannah for a while. Yeah, I know. I was just thinking about like, where's Hannah? I feel like there's been a few conversations where she should have come up and didn't.

[01:05:44] And it just feels a little bit inorganic or something. Like the writers just don't want to talk about that right now. Yeah. And I don't have anything else other than I'm expecting a lot more action and bombs. Yeah. Next episode. Like, it'll be very interesting to see the aftermath of what just happened. If they don't show some action next time, that's going to be kind of a bummer. I don't know. Maybe it'll be something that we're not expecting.

[01:06:13] Like a side thing. Yeah. Yeah. When they were having that meeting, they did talk about bombs because they did say like, it'd be a shame to waste the bombs. They're already in place in Boston. Oh, they did? Yeah. So I'm expecting some action. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I didn't even know about that. I just had a couple. I forget if we mentioned it last time, but Aunt Phoebe is played by Darcy Carden, who was really good as Janice in The Good Place. Janet. Janet.

[01:06:43] Yeah. Yeah. I love her. I haven't seen The Good Place, but I like her. It's so good. I like her character. Yeah. Yeah. For a minute there, I thought she was going to kill Lydia, but I mean. You'd love that, Wendy. You should watch it. Yeah. She's really good in it. Yeah. No, I mean The Good Place, not killing Lydia. No, I would love that. Yeah. She had her knife ready to kill her. I don't think she wanted to have to do that, but she's ready. Okay. Let's listen to some news that Jason has. Yeah. I just had one.

[01:07:10] And it was an article at L.com called Why That Betrayal on The Handmaid's Tale Had to Happen. It came out after the episode with Nick and June in the closet, and they find out that Nick told Wharton about the impending attack on Jezebels. And they actually pulled from a few different articles that different people have talked about this in. So co-showrunner Eric Tuchman told Us Weekly,

[01:07:39] it was time for June to take a very honest and hard look at who Nick is and what their relationship is really about. We've seen Nick in a pressure cooker situation all season. The walls are really closing in on him. He has two worlds with one foot in each world, and it was time for him to make a decision. We're very aware that people feel deeply connected to Nick and very invested in the June and Nick relationship because there's so much chemistry between them. He's done wonderful things for June over the course of the series.

[01:08:06] He saved her many times, but that's only part of his day. The other vast majority of his time is spent as a Gilead commander, and he rose from a driver to commander, so he must have been doing something to contribute to that ascent. When the other co-showrunner, Yalin Chang, said Nick has invested in this system that has promoted him, Nick has had many opportunities to leave and to leave with June. He's been in Canada, and he's made the choice time and time again to go back to Gilead and to double down on Gilead.

[01:08:35] We felt like it was important to show that that has been his character all along, that he hasn't left. He's talked about how before there was Gilead, he was nothing. We felt like as storytellers, we would be dishonest if we didn't incorporate those choices that he's already made into showing what he's like and what his characters really like. And then Max Minghella, who plays Nick, told TV Line, I'm conscious of the fact that it's probably going to be pretty divisive. I don't have an investment really in him being heroic.

[01:09:04] I have an investment in him being interesting and complex. So I thought that the season is full of complexity for the character. And reading that just made me love Max Minghella because I have so much respect for any actor that's willing to play a character who's done something shitty and not try to deny that and turn him into a hero, which I've seen on other shows and been critical of. If you know me, you'll probably know which character I'm thinking of right now.

[01:09:32] But sometimes people do bad things. And that just, when I read that from Max Minghella, I was like, oh, I have so much respect. If you're listening, Max Minghella, by some chance and you don't hate me, I just want to tell you, I love you said that. And I think you did a fantastic job. I didn't know he was British, actually. I saw an interview. I didn't know that either. Yeah. I'm like, hey, that's a different accent. His American accent is great. Yeah. It's so weird when you don't know someone like Melanie Linsky with her Australian accent. Yes.

[01:10:02] She does such a good job, too.

[01:10:45] And we're back with some listener feedback. And the voice you are hearing is definitely not Wendy. This is Daphne. I'm actually coming in to do feedback with Jason. Wendy is out of the country. We'll just say that. She split. She did. And so through the magic of editing and because we wanted to give our listeners an opportunity to have more time to send in feedback about this episode, we decided to wait a couple of days.

[01:11:14] And we get the added bonus of finding out what you thought about this week's episode. It's getting real. I'm so excited. This is quite an episode, right? Yes. Oh, Commander Bell. That was so sweet. I was so excited about that. Free Janine. I feel like it should have been a hashtag or it probably was a hashtag for people watching the show, especially the last two episodes.

[01:11:42] I'm excited and cautious because this this is just I mean, we just saw a little bit of them. The handmaid stepping up. Let's see what happens next. Yeah. We were saying it probably can't go 100% perfectly, but hopefully it's overall a success at least. Yeah. I don't I don't know what this how this sets things up because we know the Testaments is coming after this show.

[01:12:12] And so I'm not sure because I, again, have not read it. But I'm interested and intrigued by how they're going to weave that story in or how that's going to change things with the new series, how it all comes into play. But I'm excited and happy that we've got some closure a little bit, I think, especially with Commander Bell. He's gone. I'm hopeful for the next two episodes. We'll see.

[01:12:41] I can't believe we're at the end. Can you believe it? I know. I feel like we just started covering the season. Yeah. Zipped right by. It did. And now it's over. Almost. Before you know it, we'll be in the squid game. It's coming at the end of June. To brighten things up. To brighten things up. So, yeah. So let's go ahead and I can kick this off. Katie Scott says, Rose has a sweet tooth.

[01:13:11] She's going to want some of that wedding cake. Absolutely. I don't know if that's sort of meant to imply something like Nick. Nick should put Rose to sleep so he can escape. Or something. I don't know what he means by that, you know. Yeah. Or if she's just saying maybe she'll accidentally eat and go to sleep. Or I don't know. So we know that Nick didn't have a handmaid. So what does that mean for him? I mean, I'm assuming he's going to survive this. Oh, yeah. That's a good one.

[01:13:39] What about other commanders that didn't have a handmaid? Like how many of them are there? Can't get them all. Yeah. You can't. But you can take out a chunk of them. Yeah. Especially the worst of them. Right. All the worst ones have handmaids, I'm sure. Yes, they do. That's the ending right there. Tina Marie Groskrit says, so happy I got to watch the day on my lunch break listening to the episode now. Nice. Hope you liked it. Mm-hmm. Lori Stewart says, I thought this was such a great episode.

[01:14:08] Hopefully setting up something epic before the eventual tragedies that will rip our hearts apart. Our hearts apart. Oh, I know. I worry about that too. Like how. I feel like we got this one really incredibly satisfying episode. And does that mean that it's coming? Mm-hmm. Like. I mean, all these, it's hard for me to remember all the time, but everyone here is talking about last week.

[01:14:37] So that was with Moira and June at the end saying, let's kill these fuckers or whatever. Lord, give us. Yeah. Was it something like, Lord, give us the strength to kill these motherfuckers or something like that? Something like that. So we're still kind of in a similar place now. We're still like, oh my God, well, let's see what happens. And what if, what if we don't get some massive casualty event that takes out a bunch of the people we care about?

[01:15:05] What is that going to, I mean, what would that look like? Would that be satisfying? I mean, I don't want the characters to die, but I also feel that this story won't end without some sort of backlash or retaliation. Or tragedy. I know. I mean, yeah, that's a good point because they're all putting themselves in a lot of danger right now.

[01:15:31] And so I think the best we can hope is they kill their commanders and then get out of there, you know, go to Canada, go to Alaska or something. I'm concerned. I want to, I want to see what happens. And I'm sure June and Moira and Mayday has a plan. A plan. People out afterwards. Yeah. Right? Yeah, they have to. I mean, June did that amazing flight and got all of those kids out. She must have a plan to do that.

[01:16:01] Same for the people that are left behind. You hope so. Otherwise it's a suicide mission. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. It's my turn, right? Heather Sklarski says, heck yeah, I'm ready to watch them light the place up. Good for June standing up to Nick though. I wonder if it's going to come back to bite her soon. Yeah.

[01:16:25] Given Nick's personalities shift after, I do wonder, but I also believe that if June came knocking, he'd let her in. He'd still help her. Oh, he would. I think, yeah. I think he's going to do something to try to redeem himself, but we'll see. We'll see. Rinaldi Calixte says, poor Janine. She's been through so much.

[01:16:52] She's been through things that military veterans in war zones haven't gone through. She needs to reunite with Angela and find one of the greatest therapists in the world. Absolutely. They all do. Yeah. Nicole Cavallo Edwards says, my favorite episode this season so far. Glad June didn't let Nick talk his way out of what he did and glad Luke finally was honest with her. And bad Janet is here to help. That's a good place.

[01:17:21] The one thing I didn't like was Lydia seems to be a shell of herself these days, and I don't think that's true to her character. Well, I wonder, Nicole, if you liked this episode then, because some of that old Lydia came back for a minute there. Yeah, it definitely did. I appreciated that. I feel like if you go back to look at Lydia at the beginning of the series and then you see where she is now, that arc is just crazy to me.

[01:17:49] Like, the way that she is driven by the Gilead principles, but also I think she's come to understand her love for the handmaids and what she thinks is the right thing. And because of that, she shifted. I think that's part of the reason we see the shift in her is she saw Janine. She saw what was done with Janine and their mistreatment. And I think it shifted her.

[01:18:19] Yeah, she's having this whole crisis of faith kind of where she has these strong religious beliefs and believed that Gilead was in accordance with all of it. But now she's trying to like have or she's having to try to separate those two and be like, okay, maybe my faith is good, but Gilead's not. But it's really hard to come to that. I was saying this on the podcast. It's got to be hard for her to fully give over to that because then she has to realize that

[01:18:49] she did a lot of really horrible things and for no good reason. Self-reflection is really hard, especially when you start to realize that your previous actions have not had the intended purpose. purpose. I mean, I think people look at, well, the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. But if what you do to the few is some sort of terrorism, basically, to them, it's not really helping.

[01:19:19] I think, you know, you have to dig and look inside. And sometimes it's not a pretty place. And in order to make it a better place, you have to accept and acknowledge before you can move on. And I think that that act that she did in this episode was a big step in that direction. You know, like she's just going to have to face some consequences for that. Absolutely. It's not going to be easy. I think the next episode we're going to get to see consequences. Yeah.

[01:19:49] Especially given that there was a guard there. So she can't really lie about what she did. No, she can't. Nope. Lisa Spur says, I love the bit between June and Mara about how hot a commander would have to be for Mara to fall in love with them. Like Rihanna hot. Here's a silly question. What happened to all the Rihannas and Angelina Jolie's of the world in this reality?

[01:20:15] I also hope Madeline Brewer's next project is a light romantic comedy. Having just finished you. I mean, yeah, she's amazing. I was just going to say, I know she's on you and I don't think that show is light and funny. So, yeah. I'm excited to watch her in that because I haven't seen her in much else.

[01:20:36] But what happened to the Rihannas and Angelina Jolie's, my guess would be that Gilead would be pretty judgmental of pop singers and even actors. Most of them anyway, if you've ever played a nude scene, you'd be a handmaid. Oh, absolutely. Honestly, though, if you think about it, they left the country before any of this happened. Hopefully, yeah. They had the resources. That's what they probably would have done. Yep.

[01:21:06] That's a good point. They're in Paris. Amber Lovo says, in previous seasons of The Handmaid's Tale, didn't they say they sterilized the Jezebels? I thought Moira stated they sterilized them because these women aren't worthy to procreate. Quote unquote. I was both shocked and confused by Janine because of this. The fact Belle brought her back to be a handmaid. Obviously, he's obsessed, but I thought the Jezebels are unable to have babies.

[01:21:30] I asked ChatGBT, and ChatGBT isn't always right, but it said it was implied but never explicitly stated. So I guess they're using creative license to say not always. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know the answer to that. Or else Belle just somehow finagled it and didn't tell his wife that the new handmaid is still. Could be. Yeah.

[01:22:01] Holly Dillon says, I love the talk Moira had with June and the one Luke had with June about Nick. Priorities, June. Priorities are shifting. June and Luke need to light it up at the wedding. See, I thought that that's where it was going to happen. I'm just wondering if Hannah would be there at the wedding. Poor Janine. I really saw that bloodbath coming at Jezebels, but it went a different way than I thought. And she is worse off now than like she predicted.

[01:22:31] I'm hoping she gets redemption. I don't know about redemption. I was looking more for her to have revenge maybe against Belle. I feel like Janine deserves a happy ending, but I don't know that she'll get one. I guess we'll see. Yeah. And as far as Hannah at the wedding, I wondered that too, but I think she's still in that wife school.

[01:23:01] So probably not. Yeah. And someone brought up, I think on the podcast that they haven't really mentioned Hannah much lately. So you got to think that's going to come back into it in the next couple of episodes. Yeah. I feel like we're going to get something. I'm not sure what it's going to be. That's a big part of June's story. It makes me think too, I noticed a bunch of people online have really been asking about Esther.

[01:23:28] And I don't think we're going to get any closure for her story. But I also am interested and would like to have some, like, to know how she is because of what she went through. But I don't think we're going to get any closure on that. Right. I mean, any of these characters could potentially show up in the Testaments too. Yeah. Alma Contreras says, oof, this was a really good and intense episode. I had two favorite scenes.

[01:23:57] First was the Luke-June conversation. Luke told no lies. The next scene was when they were planning their move and how that coincided with Serena planning her wedding. I sure hope the plan really does work. We've been waiting for something big for so long. This rebellion has got to happen. Can't wait to hear y'all's thoughts. I mean, we're still, like, I'm still feeling that same way. Like, yeah, I hope it works. So we'll see next time. Yeah. Dre Manoni says, very interesting episode.

[01:24:24] This episode description described June as spiraling in this episode, but I really didn't see it that way. I think this episode is about June finding clarity about who she is prioritizing, who she wants in her circle, and some reality checking about Nick and who he really is, even if he does give smoldering looks. I love the deep friendship between June and Moira and how they understand each other.

[01:24:50] I love that they are in this together and that final leaderish pep talk was a great ending. Can't wait till the next one. May the rebellion begin. Yes. Absolutely. Therese Breeze says, that scene when Janine is waving to Lydia from the window of Commander Bell's house was one hell of a horror movie style jump scare for me. When the wife suddenly grabs Janine and drags her violently out of Lydia's view and back into God only knows what. They're reminding me of Freddy Krueger.

[01:25:20] At the end? Yes. Of the first one. With the bomb, right? And he just, the clock, and yanks the mom through the window. Through the window of the front door. Yep. Absolutely. I got that. Amazing episode that left me anxious for the reckoning that is about to come down on Gilead, even though that payoff may come at the sacrifice of more than one beloved character. Can't believe there's only three more episodes to go. Two more. I know. Two. I'm not ready.

[01:25:50] I'm ready, but I'm not ready. I kind of want to see how it ends, but I also am not ready for it to be over. I felt that way with other TV series. This isn't the first one, but knowing that it's actually ending. It's an exciting and bittersweet time. Yep. Becky Anderson says, this is one of the best episodes of the series. So many incredible moments.

[01:26:18] June and Nick's conversation was interesting. I think there was some truth in his words, but I'm still angry he cost those women their lives and that it didn't need to happen. I'm glad she walked away from him. His moment with Rita was a great setup for her getting involved in the resistance. June and Luke's moment was beautiful. I really love how their relationship is growing stronger. Moira and June together again. Their conversations gave early season vibes and that prayer at the end,

[01:26:48] with Barracuda playing as the credits rolled, loved it. Lawrence goading June and her realizing how they can use Serena's vanity to start taking Gilead down. The montage of all of it coming together was so good. I'm glad that they aren't leaving Janine behind. I can't wait to see Belle and his wife get theirs. Disgusting people. Amazing episode. Yes, Belle. You saw one of them. Yep.

[01:27:19] One thing, yeah, that you just made me think of Becky that I didn't realize before is that Nick kind of letting Rita down spurred her to go ahead and risk being in the rebellion. So that's one bright side about it. Yeah, definitely. I think it just added into it. I kind of expected he might have a little person.

[01:27:41] Nick might have that personality shift, but Rita did try to get through to him and he just was not having it. And before that, she was saying she didn't want to get involved. So that's what got her to go ahead and do it. Because she was counting on Nick to get her and her sister out. Yeah. Kazia from San Diego says, Hi, Jason, Wendy, and Daphne.

[01:28:03] In regards to your questions about Nick opinions in talking to Wharton, I think Nick could have very easily explained being at Jezebel's. He was sitting at home like a good son-in-law and got a call from High Command Lawrence about a missing eye at a lockdown at Jezebel's. Nick could say he was doing what Wharton told him to do, investigate. Security is Nick's job. Second thought, Serena is now wearing pink, the color of little girls.

[01:28:29] I think it's symbolic of how Gilead sees Serena as a powerless little girl. But why would she go along with that? I guess you're saying they forced her to wear that. Maybe just to sort of knock her down a peg or something. Last thought, the theme of forgiveness. Serena questions why June can't forgive her. Similarly, Lydia is pleading with Janine what she can do to be forgiven. June and Lawrence too. June's the only one who understands that she may never be forgiven by Lawrence or forgive Serena.

[01:28:59] And that is sad and extremely human like a wound she can't let heal. Love the pod. P.S. Did June steal Serena's journal? Ooh. I don't think so. I don't think so. I think she was just looking at it and it was making her feel a certain way, you know. Like, oh, she's still on the same kick. Yeah. Um, yeah, there's a lot of wanting forgiveness, but I don't know what to make of that.

[01:29:28] June wants, Serena just wants everyone to love her, even though she's treating them badly. She wants them to see it as good and she's great and everything.

[01:30:07] Yeah. She's done and thinks that, and so she thinks that everyone should just be forgiving her and moving on and let bygones be bygones. Yeah. That was in this episode when she talks to the handmaids and she's like, and then Rita comes up and she goes, oh, I was just telling them the importance of forgiveness and moving on. And, you know, she just said she was great friends with June and everything. And it's just like, yeah, she sees herself as this bringer of light.

[01:30:35] And meanwhile, she's trying to talk these women into accepting that being slaves is this great honor. Yeah. Delusional. And even having them go off, the handmaids go off to work in the fertility center after retirement is another step in the slavery chain. Yeah. And that, I mean, she supported it. She wanted it.

[01:31:00] She was trying to make Lydia happy, but I just don't think that she really gets it sometimes. I think she's above it. I mean, she really just looks at it like she is. She's Serena Joy. She is going to be able to talk her way or schmooze her way out of everything. But in this season, we have seen her. Have to count on June for help at least once and we'll see what happens next.

[01:31:31] And I mean, it's not, none of this is black and white and both Lydia and Serena have changed for the better. It's not at this point enough. But when Serena is sitting there telling Wharton, she's not a vessel talking about this handmaid. She's a human being. That is just that little piece of a sentence is the perfect thing to say, you know, but it's overall with her.

[01:31:58] She's just gone like a half step in the right direction. And who knows how far she could even go down that path. But like if you look around at people who are ex-MAGA and they start speaking out about, yeah, I didn't realize I felt like I was in a cult. And there are people who do that and then they speak about it and it's like, good, you know, that's great.

[01:32:24] You were doing some things and then you changed course and did the right thing. And, you know, that's why I feel like if Serena did just keep going down that path, maybe she could get there. I don't know. She's so narcissistic and it's so hard for like extreme narcissists to ever completely change. So, like I said, not black and white. Yeah, I think she's walking on a sword blade right now, really.

[01:32:49] And now, well, I especially before this episode, I felt like she was walking on a sword blade where she could kind of go back to the way things were, but also not. Like, will she want would she want to go back to the way things were? I don't think she can. But if things really change and she gets to be more of a power player, would she really be happy? Because she says she really just wants to be a mom.

[01:33:17] Like, I just feel like there's there were two different directions. But I think at the end of this episode, when we see her leaving the Warren's house after that mess, I think she may have gotten hit in the face with something June was trying to hit her in the face with this entire time. Which is you you say you don't want this, but it's what you're going to end up with because you're not changing.

[01:33:46] It's doing the same things over and over and over, expecting a different result. Yeah. June told her you're you're subjugating yourself to a powerful man. And I think when Serena said to Wharton, I was so stupid to do this again. She's probably thinking of June. Yes. Like June was right. I'm sure. I'm sure that voice was in her head. It's like, yeah, again, you did it again. And June tried to warn you and you still didn't listen.

[01:34:16] And but it's it's human nature. I think sometimes people just get sucked up in what in in the hysteria of everything or the people have patterns. But when you do something this bad, this big twice. Maybe I'm an idiot, but I do kind of think, OK, maybe this would be the last time she would ever do that. And then if like I always say, I believe in second chances, but not third. I don't know. I guess Serena's had a lot of chances, though.

[01:34:46] Well, I mean, there is that saying fool me once. Shame on you. Fool me twice. Shame on me. And she's been fooled twice, basically. Yeah. She got married to Fred and things changed and Fred changed. He wasn't the person that she married. He became someone who allowed her finger to be cut off. Yeah, you're right. She's been fooled twice. So shame on her. Wharton brings in a handmaid on their wedding night. What kind of fucked up is that?

[01:35:16] While he's got a fertile wife. Yes. Yeah. I was saying earlier on the podcast, it's like a perversion of a perversion. It was already bad enough to have a handmaid when you thought you needed one, but to have one when you as an extra is just despicable. It is. It's awful. Like, I don't blame her for her reaction. I mean, she was devastated, but she was also, I think, internally pissed. So again, I'm surprised he let her leave.

[01:35:45] I don't know how far she's going to get. I think he's going to kill her. Yeah. Gary will hide says my hope is that Lydia comes around and is radicalized by everything. Her eyes are being opened up to. Basically, Lawrence saved her ass by sending her to DC. Otherwise, she would die at the wedding. Well, she didn't. I don't get that. I think because we thought that everything was going to take place at the wedding. Oh, that's what Gary thinks at this point. Yeah.

[01:36:15] Yeah, totally. And I totally thought that too. Yeah, I'm sure most people did. I did. As horrible of a person as she is, I still hold out hope for Serena. That's a testament to how great of a character she is and the great acting. Yvonne Strahovski's facial expressions when the wives were speaking against New Bethlehem said much more than words could. Yeah, she was so uncomfortable. I really don't like the fact that June always kept going back to Nick, and I don't hate Nick for it.

[01:36:44] I think Nick grew up in a situation where there were very little life choices for him and he was taken advantage of. He grew up with a scarcity mindset. He should have told June no many times. Maybe he would not have been in the position he was when he tried to save himself. I blame June. Don't get me wrong. I feel for June and Nick made his own bed. But June went to the well too many times. She took advantage of Nick just like the sons of Jacob did.

[01:37:13] Well, not just like it, but still took advantage of him. Gosh, I hope their plane goes off without a hitch, but I'm not holding my breath. I still fear something will happen to Lawrence, my favorite character. Wow, that's a hot take. I don't know, man. Nick's in the power position, so I can't agree with that. You know what, though?

[01:37:37] I have to say, if June took advantage of Nick, I think in some ways Nick also did the same with June. Yeah. I think it was their relationship very complicated. It's like an addiction and you go back to it and you probably shouldn't. Yeah. It's two people that are... To two-way street. Yeah. Physically, they are very... Like, the chemistry is there and they're really good for each other.

[01:38:05] But emotionally, I'm not thinking that's... I don't think it's the case. It's just someone that you're in a relationship with that you know you shouldn't be because it's bad for you, but you do it anyway because there's a thrill in it. Mm-hmm. At least that's what I think, but... Yep. Lisa Marino says, hi, ladies and Jason. This is probably the best episode so far because it just ended and when it ended, I was thinking

[01:38:34] this was way too short, but it seems to be the same amount as the rest of them. Yeah, they're all like 43 minutes or something like that. Yes! Like old school TV, right? Like back in the 90s. Walking Dead. Yeah. The start of this episode was sad in terms of the ladies that Jezebel's getting gunned down. I'm glad that Janine was saved, but that was fucked up. I think June finally saw Nick for what he was and what he is.

[01:39:00] I think she had a fantasy in her head that he was a good guy, but no, he was and is selfish. What Luke said to her, quote, how about not loving a Nazi, was spot on. She deserved everything he said to her. And leave it to Lawrence to come and persuade her to lead the charge in fighting back. She owes Janine at this point to get her out. Commander Bell is going to die in a very bad way. I love that for him. Janine looked horrible.

[01:39:29] I really hope she's the one who delivers justice. I knew that aunt was on the side of resistance when she sent that guard off. And it looks like we've got Rita on board to fuck shit up as well. You go, girl. Serena just doesn't learn. When she was talking to all the wives, they don't want change. And she just doesn't get it. But unknowingly, her wedding is going to be their downfall, I think. These last episodes are just going to be wild. Can't wait to hear your take on the show and everyone's feedback. This was awesome.

[01:39:59] Oh, yes. Thank you, Lisa. And I, you know what? I think Lawrence was the only one who could persuade Jim. I think I even said that on the episode where we talked about that episode seven, that I really feel like he was the only one that was going to get through to her. Tyrone Miller says, hi, Wendy, Jason and Daphne. Again, a couple of thoughts on episode six and seven. Circling back on Serena. I think she is grappling with the addiction to power.

[01:40:29] She wants to change, but that change comes at a sacrifice, like being a refugee or losing her baby. She loves the power that Gilead can afford, but can she live with herself this way? She tells June, change takes time and has expressed how she wants to be better. But at her bridal shower and conversations with Commander Wharton, I think she realizes that she can't have both. It also seems like she chose power and to be on top with Commander Wharton.

[01:40:59] Yeah. She chose to be on top. Yeah. That all sounds right. With Commander Wharton, I actually like how they have developed him in this season. I like how so far he isn't a big bad, but rather a supporting character that pushes the storylines of others. He is powerful enough to feel like a main character with his presence and it fits perfectly. I think he is here to show the different types of commanders and to show that not all Gilead are hypocritical to the belief system. He is a Nazi.

[01:41:30] I guess the liberal version of such. But he does seem to stand ten toes down on Gilead. He doesn't indulge in Jezebel's and seems to have the moral compass of what an upstanding Gilead commander should have. Taking out Jezebel's was a double win for him as he is against those types of vices along with stopping a threat. I also need to know how he got so much power. He is not threatened by anyone.

[01:41:59] He is the highest commander, right? Like that's something that we've, I mean, as far as we know, basically. Yeah, they've referred to him as a highest commander, but we don't know if he could have the tools up there. Yeah. He does not need to prove his virility and he can build a library with a woman's name on the front and we hear no one go against him. Big dog. I question whether or not he ever showed those plans to anyone but Serena.

[01:42:27] Because I don't know that it was ever intended that that was going to be the case. I think it was. I don't think he's a liar. I just think he's self-righteous. And he's like Lydia where she thought she was so rooted in her beliefs, like you're saying, Tyrone. And look what that led her to do. Take Janine's eye out, you know? Yeah. Like he is a big bad. That's one thing I disagree.

[01:42:53] Like Wharton is a big bad, but he also thinks of himself as this pious person of Gilead. And because of those perverted beliefs that will lead him to do all these really fucked up things. And as you said in this episode, still say, I'm a good man. Exactly. I have to agree. I do think he is a big bad, but not in a way.

[01:43:24] I think we got to see the big bad in him in this episode. Like exactly like what the big bad is. But as far as being an in-your-face villain this whole season, I don't think he was out there. Like there were subtle things he did that led you to believe he might not be who he appears to be. But there was not like this in-your-face thing. See, what I really love about it is I think he's exactly who he appears to be.

[01:43:49] But we expect like that's like if you have a good feeling about someone, oftentimes you'll discount the bad things that they do. Or you'll think that, oh, I'm going to know the bad guy because they're just going to have this vibe to them that's going to be evil.

[01:44:06] And really when you look around and just look at what people who seem normal actually do and judge it without needing to see them wearing all black and having a mustache or something. I know. You can be like, okay, people who seem normal and pious and whatever else actually can do some really fucked up stuff.

[01:44:32] And I have to stop needing them to seem like a villain to realize that they can do some bad things. You know, it's kind of like how I felt about some characters on Yellow Jackets at times. And then as they've gotten more and more extreme, they start to actually seem that way. But they were already doing bad things, you know. Yeah. I don't know if what I'm saying makes a lot of sense. No, I have to agree. I think that sometimes you do when you like someone, you will overlook some of those things that maybe you shouldn't be overlooking.

[01:45:02] He continues. I am also very pleased with how they developed Nick as well. Bear with me, Jason. He didn't annoy me up until he laid it all out to June. I do feel like it was clear he was a double agent this whole time, but we never knew his motives. This conversation clears up five seasons of his moody boy faces and gives us the context we needed. Ironically enough, he is a great double agent.

[01:45:29] He worked his way up the power ladder, saved his first child and the love of his life. And by revealing the Jezebel's attack, he is justified reasoning if Toello ever tried to rat him out. Last thought. Given what we see from Commander Wharton, do you think Boston is the loosest of all Gilead locations? Remember in D.C., the Washington Monument was turned into a cross. Handmaids couldn't talk.

[01:45:56] It just felt way more strict and by the Gilead book, but still had Jezebels. This is Commander Wharton's main station. Do you think this is why he got Rose to Boston? Lastly, I have to send a shout out to my Whitney. She was thrilled to hear my thoughts on the show before. She was the one who put me onto this show. You all are great for real. Aw, thank you. Hi, Whitney.

[01:46:27] I don't know if Boston's the loosest. Maybe. I mean, I think. I feel like there was some story point to having the D.C. Handmaids. Didn't they have their like something sewed over their mouths? Yeah. Stapled together. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. But I feel like that's just a thing that happens in shows and movies sometimes where they want to up the stakes every once in a while. So they have something even worse somewhere else. But as far as.

[01:46:57] Yeah, I don't know. I guess you just we can't really know. But he's saying did Wharton bring Rose to Boston because it's the loosest? I mean, now that we know what Wharton is really like. I mean, he he killed had a bunch of women, innocent women killed because he thinks that they're expendable and they're unclean or whatever. Like, I don't think he.

[01:47:24] I mean, the idea that he did, as he said in this episode to Serena, he's like, I've been to your liberal ways, you know. And so that's the part that makes me wonder, OK, well, why did he choose someone that seemed to be sort of on the edge of what Gilead considers to be OK and trying to push it away from what he considers their core values? You know, like, was he lying to her when he was sort of presenting like, yeah, it's going to be great.

[01:47:53] You can live in two places and you can read and all that. Like, it does feel like he should have known that a person like that wasn't going to like it when she came home and found a handmaid there. Exactly. On her wedding night. Yeah. I mean. So I've been saying that I don't think he's a liar and that he's just pious, but I don't know. Like, it seemed like he was sort of stringing her along a little bit before he told her what the real truth was about himself. Hiding behind the curtain. Yeah.

[01:48:22] Tam from Perth says, hi, fellow resistors. Hello. So as always, I start with a compliment to the showrunners, always getting better at giving us what we want in the openings. Nick's guilty face. Then an execution minus Janine. Phew. And a new kind of brutality to women we haven't seen. Then right back to the breakup of Nick and June. She just knows before asking the question he can't answer. They're dead. And when he says to June, you love me. So what does that make you? Me involving myself talking to the TV.

[01:48:51] Stupid and regretful. Because I was kind of team Nick. He's become so simple minded with such complicated actions like getting a passport to Paris, but betraying June the same day. That was kind of, yeah, crazy fantasy. Now on to fucking Naomi Putnam. Just because she has that new Lawrence surname means nothing. You were right. She's going to be trouble and I suspect a betrayer of Serena. I hope Janine hasn't entered a killer as she takes baby Charlotte back.

[01:49:22] Serena's time away from these wives, her taste of the past and the lure of a perfect middle ground of New Bethlehem is only isolating her further. Her smirk when the wedding and her and Wharton at the top is mentioned just shows her need of a backup plan constantly. I'm trying so hard to hope for her because of the baby, but well, she's just a bad guy. And I hate to say it because Aunt Lydia has been so awful, sadistic, ritualistic, just plain blinded by frankly stupid rules of religion.

[01:49:51] I am all for her suspicious nature now just for Janine's sake. And our June, oh June, June, June. She just has too many feelings. She needs an excellent therapist ASAP. I mean, if she was my friend, I would send her back to Holly and Nicole and let everyone else have a go with the right emotions. Yeah, she wants to save Hannah and that should be her only focus. I wish someone would say, you're no help right now. I also know she would say, fuck off and do her thing.

[01:50:19] And so back to the boot, Aussie word for trunk, she goes. Because this is, however, the Handmaid's Tale and that's what we're here for. Onto the wedding and massacre of the century and our true hero, Rita, or possibly that last from the good place, Aunt Revolution. Fuck yes. Straight into the perfect song, which has such a great story in itself. Excuse all the fucks, please, Tam. Always, Tam. Feel free to let it all out.

[01:50:49] Tammy says, a couple of quick thoughts on this episode. I think we are seeing a lot of internal reckoning and choices about each character's deep commitment being formed as we move from survival to revolution. Circumstances are forcing each of them to ask the question, what is the cost of personal peace? Or said differently, when will I choose my own personal peace over the greater good? We saw it at Jezebel's when June wanted to take Janine with them.

[01:51:18] Mortar helped her see it was too high a cost. We see it in a huge way with Nick in the last episode. He was willing to leave his life and mayday to choose his own peace with June at his side. Serena is wrestling with selling out her vision of New Bethlehem for peace and security of marriage. Lawrence is facing the price of personal peace and his vision of New Bethlehem. Each of them is facing a choice to be comfortable and safe or put themselves at great risk for a greater cause.

[01:51:47] Even June is facing this choice. In the first season, she was facing pure survival. Now she has to choose every day to continue the mission when she does have the option to live a peaceful life. Though how peaceful it could be without Hannah, I don't know. Nick seems like he might have been a January 6er. I don't think we'll get some big reveal about one terrible thing he did. Maybe he was involved in the slaughter of Congress they mentioned at the beginning.

[01:52:17] I could see him as someone who was drifting, got caught up in the manosphere type movement that's caught up so many young men into the alt-right pipeline. But he was never really committed to the goals. They just made him feel seen. He got pardoned and then taken in and brought up in the commander's world, mostly because of his discretion.

[01:52:40] I mean, with him, we don't see him in many non-June contexts. We saw him kill Putnam. We've seen him with Rose a little bit. But his life is a big mystery. What we do know is that he was a driver who rose up to become a commander.

[01:53:01] And so what I get from him isn't that he's this hardcore Gilead idealist at all, especially given that he'll go out of his way to help June in anti-Gilead activities. But more that, which is what I've said about him a lot, he's just the go-along-to-get-along type.

[01:53:19] And I think he will do things that harm people in that vein, but it's always just to protect himself and to make himself – like he also said about how he was nothing before Gilead. So he likes the idea of having the power that it gives him, but I just don't think he's one of the ones – like you're saying, he maybe is in the manosphere.

[01:53:43] To me, that's more getting wrapped up in the ideology of it, and I'm not sure Nick is wrapped up in the ideology of it. I just think he likes the power that goes along with doing what he's supposed to do to rise up, you know? Yeah. I think he may have gotten caught up in the hysteria of it. Sometimes that also happens. We don't know because we didn't get to see like the rise of Gilead or how it all came about and how polarizing it might have been for people.

[01:54:12] He doesn't seem to me like he's caught up in the hysteria at all. He seems to me just like he's a guy who likes to be comfortable and powerful, and so he'll do whatever it takes. And if it was a different country with a whole different system of values, he'd be fine at going along with that too. I think though – not now because I don't think there's a lot of – the hysteria isn't now. I'm thinking the hysteria back then when he was first like getting into it all.

[01:54:37] So I don't – I mean he may have gotten caught up in it or he may – it just may have happened to him because he had no other options really. I don't know. I don't know. I mean – I hope we find out more. We got two more episodes. Yeah. But we may not. It may be one of those things we just never know. Mm-hmm. Serena is marrying the actual devil, and she's about to get a real comeuppance that will force her to see the horror of her betrayal of women.

[01:55:05] The other commanders are simply power-hungry. They don't care about the principles of Gilead except insofar as it benefits them as white men. They are in it for the joy of the cruelty because it's easy and fun for them to climb the ladder to power. Those who succeed are the ones who are the most amoral and just enjoy the game. Warden is extremely dangerous because he is a true believer.

[01:55:30] He also knows how to play the game, but I think he sees the other commanders as useful idiots to usher in a Gilead renaissance. If he allows Serena to do anything, write anything, he will take full credit for it. She will find herself truly caged in a prison of her own making, being forced to be the platonic ideal of a Gilead woman.

[01:55:53] She's going to have to truly choose to actually practice what she preached without the privilege previously afforded to her or fully join the resistance. I think it's possible that because she's proven her fertility that she could be forced to be a handmaid. I think Lydia is going to have a lighter version of this happen to her. She reminds me of nuns who became aware of the abuses performed by priests.

[01:56:17] She bought into the religion of Gilead and the scales are falling off her eyes. I wouldn't be surprised if she also joins the resistance. Thanks for a great show, as always. Well, what if Wharton somehow forces Serena to be a handmaid because they know she's fertile? I mean, he could! That would be karma. That would be one word for it.

[01:56:47] He could, I mean... It'd be fucked up. Yes. But this show is done... I mean, Gilead is a fucked up place, so fucked up things are going to happen. It kind of felt like that when she was at the, oh, I always forget their name, that one couple's place. The Wheelers. They were so creepy.

[01:57:06] It felt like she was sort of getting a little bit of a taste of her own medicine there, but to actually see her in that outfit and know that she's going to have to do that ceremony would really be karma for her, but I would not wish that on her or anyone. No, no. I mean, she... I really wouldn't. She was responsible. I mean, she's responsible. She wrote that book.

[01:57:34] Like, she plays a part in all of this. Yeah, big part. The whole thing. And so, you know, reaping the benefits of it or non-benefits of it is just something that she may have to do. Suffering the consequences, yeah. Suffering the consequences. Oh, man. So, we do have a couple of voicemails. The first one is from Jenny Ryan.

[01:58:03] Okay, here's what I want to have happen. I want us to get to the wedding and then we find out that Serena Joy was in on it the whole time. Nope. I want her to pull a dagger out of her dress and stab Wharton. I want her to have been part of the planning, like part of the resistance. Like, I know that's not going to happen because that would be a real twist and I don't think Handmaid's Tale is particularly good at twists.

[01:58:32] But I think that would be super cool. That's what I wish was going to happen. But in the end, I think she's probably just going to, I don't know, get killed or something. But I'd rather her have some kind of a redeeming thing. Also, yeah, not to speak too much to what's happening with Aunt Lydia because it will give things away, I think, in the Testaments. But, yeah, I don't love what's happening with her.

[01:58:57] It makes no sense to me because she really was very, I don't know, they're retconning, I think. They're trying to squeeze her into something else to make the new series work, I think. And I don't know. It rings false to me. Okay, bye.

[01:59:16] To me, without trying to give too much away, I think there are definitely people who have what I call a crisis of faith. And it seems like that's what's happening to her. And I think that does happen in the real world.

[01:59:33] I also think that because Lydia has this connection with Janine, and I think it has affected her more than other situations or other things that she's seen that the girls have been in. And I think, for some reason, she has taken it upon herself to try to protect Janine.

[02:00:00] And through everything that's happened, I mean, she was happy for Janine to be placed as a handmaid, knowing that Janine did not want that. Okay, we see that piece of it. But because she was just grateful Janine was alive. So, I don't know. I think some of Lydia's change has come about because of the way she feels about Janine. Yeah, I think you're right. I think it's a big part of it.

[02:00:28] And that's also something that happens. People can feel one way when it's all in the abstract, and they're not having a direct experience of the people that are suffering because of their own actions. But then when they meet somebody and care for somebody who is, that can hopefully change them, you know, if that's what it has to take. Yeah, exactly. So, we have another voicemail from Renee. Thank you, Renee. Hi, Jason.

[02:00:58] Hi, Wendy. Definitely, I love how you say Mora's name. It's super cute. Now, to my points. In my opinion, Nick, Commander Lawrence, Lydia, Serena, and the rest of Gilead, New Bethlehem, are all hypocritical bigots. Because nowhere in the Bible that I read does it say you can enslave people for your own benefit.

[02:01:23] Also, saying that Commander Bell is obsessed with Janine is like saying a slave owner was obsessed with certain female slaves. He does not care about Janine. He only cares about owning and demeaning her, just like the slave owners did. But this show is not cathartic to me because the people who need to see it either aren't watching it or, if they are, they treat it like it's fiction, which it is.

[02:01:52] Although, the world that we're living in now, we're part of the Handmaid's Tale. These are often the same people who don't believe racism is real or who don't believe in women being in control. Serena is the worst of the worst because she actually believed her own lies, the opposite word being lies.

[02:02:16] I have no sympathy for Nick, Lawrence, Serena, Unjoyful Joy, or the rest of the people complicit in that mess. They try to justify themselves by quoting scripture for only the parts that fit their twisted agenda. In my opinion, it's completely fair to be morally judgmental towards people like that. Nick is an awful, awful person.

[02:02:45] He had a choice to make the right decision, and to me, the right decision would have been to go on the wall. He said before Gilead, he would have been a bag boy or Uber driver. I would rather be either of those than support an organization that oppresses people. Do you know how many people chose to go on the wall during the civil rights movement? And it wasn't just black people.

[02:03:11] White people with the advantage of complexion protection chose to go on the wall instead of selling out human beings who were dehumanized simply because of the color of their skin. They chose to die so others can live. Do you know how many white people were killed during slavery because they were the good white people that Dr. Martin Luther King talked about?

[02:03:36] Do you know how many white abolitionists willingly chose to go on the wall right along with black people? They chose it because they knew that it was wrong what the other people were doing. Commander Lawrence is awful because the only reason he chose to help was that he overheard the other commanders saying that he was next to go on the wall.

[02:04:02] Lydia is awful because she believes that God chose her to be judge and juror. She's no better than those who turn a blind eye to evil. I think when a character is attractive, people tend to overlook their bad behavior. Take Negan for example. People only make excuses for him because they find him attractive. Meanwhile, Simon gets crucified more than likely because people don't find him attractive.

[02:04:29] I've never heard anyone lust after Simon the way they do Negan. I can't understand how people sympathize with Serena but dog June. Sympathize with Nick but dog Luke. Luke is like Rick Grimes. They both deserve enormous respect. If for nothing else, they chose to raise children that wasn't biologically theirs. Children that were conceived by their wives' lovers.

[02:04:56] And they still chose to stay with their wives after that. To me, that speaks volume. Oh, and another thing, I think Wharton has everyone's house and cars bugged. You know, I'm a conspiracy theorist, so there's that. And also, I want to end this with this. Throw me in the ocean with my ancestors. I'd rather die than to be in bondage. Alrighty, peace and love. Bye-ya. Oh, Renee.

[02:05:25] You never disappoint. Never. Oh, my gosh. So much. Oh, man. My favorite is about saying, you know, Nick had a choice there and he chose wrong. He should have chose the wall. And I'm like, well, yeah, he would have saved, you know, dozens of women's lives for one, you know, for his own. And then saying that if not for Gilead, he would have been a bag boy or an Uber driver.

[02:05:54] And she said, I would rather be that than be complicit in all this. That was just so powerful. Yes. And true. Exactly. I think, yeah, I like how she kind of reflects on the things that are happening right now in our world. Yeah. And I think we all have to take a look inside ourselves right now and determine who we want to be. Mm-hmm. You know?

[02:06:19] And Renee, I think you should take a look inside and see if you're excusing some of Rick Grimes' bad behavior because of how haught he is. Whoa. Whoa. I'm going to get it for that one. You are. You are. You're definitely going to get it. But thank you so much for that message. That was one of my favorite of the ones you've ever given us. Yeah. Thank you, Renee. Thank you, everyone who sent in feedback for this episode. Mm-hmm.

[02:07:06] All right. This is the part of our podcast where we're going to have a May Day briefing. Yeah. So it's about, you know, something in the real world. And that's sort of like The Handmaid's Tale. And I've been thinking about how there's this sort of culture war in the United States. And what's happening in government right now feels like the culmination of this.

[02:07:34] It's been going on for maybe as long as the United States has been a thing. And liberals and the left in recent years, you know, recent decades have really fought for diversity. Not just ethnic diversity, but in gender identity, sexual orientation. I consider it just freedom. The basic right to live freely, even if your life doesn't conform to traditional norms. That is freedom to me.

[02:08:02] Not having to live your life by the way that everyone else or other people think you should. It's not freedom. If everyone thinks it's okay, then it's not really freedom. It's only freedom when people don't think it's okay and you're still allowed to do it anyway. Um, but now the government is actively taking the other side of that war. They're erasing references to diversity and inclusion from federal language and policies. They're mandating a strict binary definition of gender across all their agencies.

[02:08:31] They're injecting Christian nationalist ideology into lawmaking and public institutions. Like we talked about last time, they're punishing dissent. They, they don't allow teachers to acknowledge gender diversity in classrooms. And if they do, then they'll be fired or they punish librarians defending books like this one, uh, our mother's house, which portrays a loving family with two mothers and it's faced bands in multiple school districts.

[02:08:57] They're just really trying to shape the culture to their vision. And it's, it's trying to control the narrative of what it means to be an American. And it feels very hands made tailish to me. The more the state defines what you're allowed to be, the less room there is for freedom.

[02:09:17] Um, um, so just to, that's just a quick, you know, a little thing about what's going on, but one way to cope with everything that's going on that I think is kind of related to this. And I hope most of you listening are already doing this, but just to keep balance in our lives, to not live in a perpetual state of outrage, fear, anxiety. It's hard, but I really think it's important to spend time connecting with friends, doing things we love, uh, whatever brings you joy.

[02:09:47] Last weekend, I, uh, went and saw my friend Chad play in his band in his backyard at a party at his house. A bunch of my friends who I hadn't seen in a long time were there and it was just a really good time. And, uh, I spent a little time ranting with a friend of mine who was there about how shitty Trump is. And she told me that her father had quote fallen to the red wave. And I was like, Oh no, cause I know her dad. And we kind of commiserated about that.

[02:10:12] And it felt good to connect with another person who I knew felt the same, but I could see that the conversation was getting her down and she wasn't having fun anymore. And so I just changed the subject. What TV shows are you watching? You know? And, um, then we had a few laughs and I think she and I, and all of us were just happy to be there having a good time together. And I just think it's important to, to keep doing that. And, and for me, it's a big part of why I care about all this so that I can keep getting to do stuff like that.

[02:10:40] And we want to keep having the freedom to live our lives the way that we want. And so let's spend some time living our lives the way we want and keeping our batteries full. So that all this stuff is a little bit easier to deal with. Yeah. And I think everybody has to find that in a different way.

[02:10:56] I know I've, I was pretty down probably from like August on because I just kind of saw the writing on the wall and I kind of figured I knew the way the election was going to go. And then the election and then seem to manage to get it under control. And then the inauguration and the last hundred days. Um, but you know, you, you can't just live in misery.

[02:11:25] You have to find joy in life. And, um, That's why you're going to France, right? I'm recapturing a little bit of that. It's not just going to France. Like I've limited my social media exposure, my news exposure. And obviously I'm doing this podcast. Like I, I am talking about it and I am doing things about it. I went to a protest last week. Yeah. And I think that's important too. That's why I say balance, you know? Yeah.

[02:11:51] But it's, I was not balanced before I was just living in doom scrolling. And you feel, I mean, I've noticed the difference in you and I wish I could do something about it. Like, I know you're upset and I don't blame you at all, but I'm glad you went to France. I have felt better for the last like, um, six weeks. I've felt much better about things. I just feel like, you know, I still feel it though. Sometimes like when we start talking about something, I can just feel the adrenaline rise.

[02:12:20] You're living it. That's why. Yeah. I do think it's healthy to take a break from things. Sometimes you can't just live in it all the time. And I know I don't live in the U S but it leaks into other places. Like it leaks into Canada politics. Um, I knew someone who was very close to me who cried the day Trump got elected the first time and he fell into the red wave now.

[02:12:44] And we kind of just had a falling out because, you know, like we don't live in the U S but that mentality and the fear that is in people's, um, lives. So that like, and I think they get people by making them afraid, especially if they have parents that, you know, your kids are going to turn into trans kids or, um, LGBT. Like, you know, they're going to turn your kids gay. And I'm like, it's not possible. Like you're born like that.

[02:13:13] And it's so annoying to see. So yeah, you sometimes just have to turn it off because it's always, it's, I find it's always ignorance. And I don't mean that in a mean way, but like, I've talked to people that truly good people and it's ignorance. You know, when, when, when, when, when, when you have a rational discussion about like, well, why are you voting that way? Or why are you supporting that?

[02:13:40] And their answers for the most part are just true ignorance. Like I, I asked my friend, um, that I grew up with, went to college with, I asked her, you know, her and her sister, why they were going to vote for Trump. And they said it was all about the illegal immigrants. They truly believed that illegal immigrants across the country are getting free housing, free healthcare, free this, free that. Whereas, you know, our people are starving to death because of that.

[02:14:10] Like they truly believed that was the root of all evils. And I don't know if I dissuade them, but I did say it was okay not to vote if they felt. I do think that sometimes it, I hate to say it, but sometimes it's at their control because it's whatever algorithm you fall into. Like sometimes, and it's so funny because sometimes like random things show up on my feed and I'm like, what is this?

[02:14:37] And you watch it for a second and it takes you a while to figure out what it is. But if you keep watching that, like it's so slow and it really pulls you in if you're not careful. So I don't think it's ignorance so much as I think if that's what you're consuming, that's what becomes, like that becomes your truth and your reality. And that's why you get sucked into that. And your culture. If all the people around you and people are talking about it much more than they used to.

[02:15:05] I mean, I can remember when we first moved into our old neighborhood, I had a Bush Cheney bumper sticker on my car because I lost a hand. I lost the poker game. And that was the, like, it was so much lighter in those days. And so like first party, you know, first neighborhood party. And somebody mentioned that I had that Bush Cheney sticker on my car. And I was like, well, that's interesting that you say that. You know, but it was all so much lighter.

[02:15:35] It didn't mean as much, you know. I think also if you think of how you feel right now because Trump won and like his supporters, how they would have felt if Kamala won. Like politics has become so divisive that at one point, like, you know, when Bush won, it was like, oh, that sucks. Like what were people thinking? But you didn't feel that. You didn't feel like your way of life. Exactly. Yeah.

[02:16:02] And I think the media has something to do with that, too, is because they also feed into that fear of people. Yeah. I mean, both. So, you know, both sides on both sides of the aisle and it's campaign time. They want to motivate you to vote. So they'll focus on the things that they think are going to motivate you. And I think the left can sometimes exaggerate things or play things up.

[02:16:29] But not to the level of the right where, especially now it's with MAGA, where they will just like it's ridiculous. Like there was some election back when Trump was first president. And it was a midterm. And he started talking about these caravans of illegals that were coming up from Mexico to kill us all. Right. And then the midterm election happened. It went very badly for them. It didn't work. But and then after that, the next day, they completely stopped talking about it. It was such bullshit.

[02:16:59] And they just make up really crazy things like that. And like your kids are going to go to school and be turned into a different gender. And it's just so and it's like you said, ignorance, like, come on. Like, and now they don't talk about it anymore. They're talking about something completely different. Like he started off. Yeah. Tariff. And I don't know. Right. They put in a bill and they called it the furries bill because it was all based on.

[02:17:27] And schools having litter boxes in this in the public school system for children that pretended they were furries. And they presented that in a bill for Congress. That's where we are. Like, yeah, it's just if somebody had told you that 10 years ago, you wouldn't. I just don't know. So turn this podcast off and listen to some music for a while.

[02:17:57] That's what we're saying. That's what we're saying, basically. Don't listen to us. Go listen to something. We have a private Facebook group called The Handmaid's Tale Mayday for any of you who would like a place to talk more about The Handmaid's Tale and also a safe space to talk about the Trump administration. Give each other support and talk about what we can do to fight back and save our democracy. The link will be in the show notes. But don't do it. Just go listen to some music and go to a party. Yeah.

[02:18:45] All right. That is our show. Thanks for listening, everybody. Next up, Handmaid's Tale Season 6, Episode 9. Does anybody know what the name is? Oh, shoot. We should look it up. Sorry. It is called... Everybody Dies. It's got to be one word. Well, it's called Execution. Oh, my God. So, you kind of nailed it.

[02:19:11] Next up, Handmaid's Tale Season 6, Episode 9, Execution. Wow. Everything's fine. Let's hope it's executing someone we hate. If you want to write in or send us a voice message about it, that would be awesome. You can find all our contact information at podcastica.com. While you're there, be sure to check out our other podcasts. What other podcasts should they check out? Oh, The Last of Us or The Cast of Us.

[02:19:41] That's my favorite one right now. Good choice. That's what I've been listening to. Yeah, it's been such a great season. Yeah. And by the way, thanks for coming on, Mae. It was a pleasure to get to know you a little bit. It was awesome talking to you guys live instead of having to talk to you in my head. I know. I always miss the opportunity to do feedback. And then I have things to say. So, I just post it in the messenger chats. Nobody cares, but this is what I want to say. All right.

[02:20:10] That is our show. Thanks for listening. And don't forget to take a little bit of time to get to know your fiance. Bye. Bye. Bye.