“Shadows and Flame” (Rings of Power S2E8)

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[00:01:37] Ah!

[00:01:40] Hear the dying words of Celebrimbor

[00:01:44] The rings of power

[00:01:47] shall destroy you

[00:01:50] And in the end

[00:01:51] I foresee one alone shall prove your utter

[00:01:58] RUIN

[00:02:00] I am the creator. I am the master

[00:02:13] No, you are the prisoner

[00:02:24] Lord. Greetings ring bearers, sword wielders, elven smiths and dark lords. Welcome to our podcast. I'm Anwen

[00:03:16] And I'm Penny

[00:03:18] And this is the cast of the rings episode 24

[00:03:22] This episode we are going to cover the rings of power season 2 finale episode 8 shadows and flame

[00:03:31] I can't believe that it's come around already the finale this season's over it went by very

[00:03:37] fast

[00:03:38] I think because they dropped three at once at the beginning and we scrambled so much to get

[00:03:45] the season off the ground

[00:03:48] Exactly

[00:03:48] And then it was like now we're halfway done like it just happened really quickly

[00:03:53] Yeah, it was really only six weeks and uh because it was so crunched in the middle and especially this last bit because we took a little bit of a break to get our thoughts together it's kind of

[00:04:05] It feels like forever since we're podcasters and we had uh, we had an episode without each other so yeah, it's all come together now for the finale and it's very exciting to be here

[00:04:14] Yeah, we haven't podcasted together since episode 5

[00:04:18] Yeah, so much has happened

[00:04:20] It's wild

[00:04:23] Absolutely. What did you think of the episode overall?

[00:04:25] I thought it was um

[00:04:32] Really dense like a lot happened not dense in a bad way, but like that there was a lot going on

[00:04:38] I think they did a good job of wrapping up some of the smaller less interesting

[00:04:45] Storylines and setting up season three

[00:04:48] But I mean the the sort of best parts were all the Sauron parts and they were amazing just amazing

[00:04:56] How about you?

[00:04:58] Yeah

[00:04:58] Yeah, I loved it. I

[00:05:00] I had that sense after watching it the first time of just

[00:05:05] Like i'd been hit by a train like what just happened so much happened that it was really hard to and my biggest sense was of relief

[00:05:14] Like oh great. We don't have to podcast on this in in two days from now because it's just

[00:05:18] So intense and so much so i'm really glad that we've had the space to be able to

[00:05:23] Get our thoughts together, but overall I was very very impressed with what they managed to

[00:05:28] Fit in within the episode

[00:05:30] There are some parts I think that

[00:05:32] Felt a bit rushed that maybe it would have been great to have one more episode

[00:05:35] I think they could have taken a little bit more time but

[00:05:37] In general, it was very skillful what they did manage to cover in the time that we had

[00:05:43] And I kind of knew that we were in good hands

[00:05:46] Within about the first five minutes when they pretty much sewed up this the dwarven storyline and got that done

[00:05:52] I was like, okay cool. They know what they're doing now. They've found their stride

[00:05:55] And the main things that I was you know excited to and hoping to see all happen so

[00:06:02] I've got a little list here and we'll cover all of them

[00:06:04] But um adar's redemption rivendale saron and galadriel fighting the balrog

[00:06:10] Calabrim banner which we'll go into

[00:06:13] Gandalf

[00:06:13] And narsil like all of these things were like yes, so satisfying they did it and and I was really super surprised

[00:06:19] Um, the only thing that I found really surprising actually was and we'll talk about this too

[00:06:26] But kemin showing up at palagi. I was like what that was quite a big a big shock for me

[00:06:31] But everything else was kind of as I expected but more so I was really happy with that. I was thrilled with it overall

[00:06:37] Yeah

[00:06:38] Awesome

[00:06:41] Well, I think we need to just um settle in because we're going to be here for a while

[00:06:45] This is going to be a bumper episode and um so much to talk about

[00:06:49] Where do you want to start pinny?

[00:06:51] Well, let's start with king duran and the and the balrog I

[00:06:56] I thought that scene was really powerful even though it was quite short

[00:07:00] That

[00:07:01] It reminded me a lot of

[00:07:03] Of an addiction story and we've talked about the ring

[00:07:07] As addiction metaphor

[00:07:10] When you know first he breaks through the rock and he's like look my son look at all of our wealth, you know

[00:07:15] He's all excited about it and then the cinematography was amazing how the light of the fire slowly washes over their faces

[00:07:23] And then you see them see I assume the balrog, but we don't see it yet

[00:07:28] and then

[00:07:30] The the change on the the king's face. I I was like, I guess

[00:07:35] He literally hit rock bottom like, you know, they say that in in addiction like you have to hit rock bottom before you'll get sober

[00:07:43] And he sobered up fast. He's like, whoa, that's a that's a big fiery monster

[00:07:48] And I okay i'm taking off the ring and you're king now

[00:07:53] I'm gonna jump off this cliff in a very like

[00:07:57] I mean if you're gonna go out go out in complete glory like that like leaping into

[00:08:03] The balrog's face with an axe was pretty cool and it looked cool and um

[00:08:11] This you know the last couple of sentences he says to

[00:08:15] His son, you know, it wasn't me letting you lift my hand. It was you getting stronger was

[00:08:22] Was beautiful because these two have had a very contentious relationship and and they knock heads a lot and and because it's because they're very similar and

[00:08:31] you know, his last words to his son were letting his son

[00:08:34] know like I see you and

[00:08:37] I know that

[00:08:38] You're strong and you're gonna be a good king and i've always known it

[00:08:42] and

[00:08:43] You know, we might fight

[00:08:46] And I might be a you know a tough old guy, but like

[00:08:49] I love you my son king durin calls him king durin and then leaps into the thing

[00:08:53] I thought it was really moving and beautiful, but I also thought it was really just kind of funny

[00:08:58] I was like that's like literal rock bottom. He got to the bottom of the mountain

[00:09:02] There's rocks there rock bottom. Yeah

[00:09:05] Yeah, and also

[00:09:06] The balrog as a

[00:09:09] representation or an emblem of the addiction like that this is the monster within it's literally the monster deep down within that's

[00:09:17] You know can cause havoc to your life type thing. So yeah beautifully symbolic

[00:09:21] when uh when prince durin

[00:09:23] Um finds disa and disa says it's the ring it has him

[00:09:27] And then they kissed I was like, oh, no

[00:09:29] They've cursed and is that a good buy is one of them gonna gonna not make it but um

[00:09:34] I thought it was beautifully done where she was sort of there because I

[00:09:37] I you know, we've both loved disa and durin's relationship all the way through and so

[00:09:42] I think it's really nice that she was there with him

[00:09:44] When that happened but also slightly background so she was there she was backing him up

[00:09:48] But she wasn't directly involved with what was happening

[00:09:51] I think it was important that it had to be between durin and his father. Yeah, I agree at the end there

[00:09:56] I loved how when he breaks through and you look down and you see that whole mind

[00:10:00] Full of that whole cavern full of me thrill

[00:10:02] It was very similar to the part in the fellowship of the ring when they're going through the mines of moria and they're going along that little kind of um

[00:10:09] Ledge and they look down and they see this whole cavern

[00:10:13] Visually, it was almost identical and I loved that because it's really recognizable to us

[00:10:17] That's the part that was sealed up and then you know later on gets opened again and all that sort of stuff

[00:10:22] It was really cool. It tied everything in nicely

[00:10:25] And the balrog looked pretty much identical to the peter jackson version as well

[00:10:30] So I think that's what everyone was wanting to see

[00:10:32] And with the the the whip of fire as well coming and grabbing durin's ankle was incredible

[00:10:38] I saw a meme floating around the internet that said um, oh, i'm so glad they cast the same actor as the balrog from fellowship

[00:10:48] That's great. I love that

[00:10:49] Because it does look very similar even though the cgi has clearly improved, you know in yeah in the last 20 years, but

[00:10:57] Yeah, they kept the look and feel

[00:11:00] Very close

[00:11:01] Exactly

[00:11:01] Yeah

[00:11:02] And I also loved that

[00:11:04] It's very

[00:11:06] Neatly kind of

[00:11:07] And literally sealed back up

[00:11:09] So a lot of the the criticisms that people were having in anticipation of the balrog showing up were

[00:11:15] It's way too early. It's not supposed to show up until the third age and that's when moria falls and all that sort of stuff

[00:11:21] This is really cool because we got to see it, but it looks like it's kind of sealed back up

[00:11:26] So it still stays within the kind of canon of the story that yay

[00:11:30] We got to see the balrog, but it's actually I think khazad-doom is going to be fine for a bit

[00:11:34] Was that the impression that you got?

[00:11:35] Yeah, I think so too. I think now we're going to deal with

[00:11:38] You know internal dwarf politics

[00:11:42] Because there are people apparently who don't support

[00:11:44] Durin for

[00:11:47] To become king they think you know there were problems with his father towards the end there

[00:11:52] So they think he wasn't the preferred heir and there's always

[00:11:56] At least

[00:11:58] My readings of history and also

[00:12:01] Things like game of thrones, you know when a king dies there's that's a time when people are going to try to

[00:12:08] Get power and move up in the world and there's always unrest around

[00:12:12] succession of power so

[00:12:15] That's going to be interesting next season to see

[00:12:17] Who are these other people?

[00:12:19] I like the way they sewed that up too because

[00:12:21] It does sort of sow the seeds for the next season

[00:12:25] But it felt like a bit of a completion for the story for now, but it's not

[00:12:29] While this is all over we we still know there's going to be drama and and excitement happening for the dwarves moving forward

[00:12:34] So that's that was really good. I really enjoyed that too

[00:12:38] It was awesome

[00:12:39] I thought uh, you know later the dwarves show up to Eregion, you know after they said they would be there

[00:12:45] But they do get there eventually and and help the elves

[00:12:48] And I was just saying like, you know if you're late somewhere

[00:12:52] Like the best excuse of the world has to be oh, I had to deal with a balrog first

[00:12:56] Like no one's gonna question you and be like oh though you should have done that faster like no, that's all right balrog

[00:13:04] You get a pass and navi

[00:13:06] Navi's like oh durin's in mourning. It's like he doesn't mention the balrog

[00:13:11] Yeah, I guess it's dad dying is the biggest thing but yeah, it was it was very well done and

[00:13:18] Came to the titles and and like I've really enjoyed watching the titles previously

[00:13:22] But um because they really haven't changed a lot. I don't think I generally skip them

[00:13:27] But I needed the titles

[00:13:29] Because I sat there going that was one of the most intense cold opens I have ever seen

[00:13:34] Yeah, and I actually needed the titles to recover

[00:13:36] I was sitting there just kind of fanning myself and going oh my god, that was incredible and I needed those

[00:13:41] Couple of minutes of the titles to kind of reset and get to the next scene

[00:13:45] So it was very well timed and very well placed and as I said before it made me go okay

[00:13:50] They've got this. I think I think we're gonna get a good coverage of everything

[00:13:55] And in general, that's a a good indication for me

[00:13:58] Of this season as a whole that I really think the showrunners have found their stride

[00:14:02] So the first season was really trying to find their feet and establish so many

[00:14:06] Situations and characters and civilizations and now they've just really got their pacing so much better and throughout the season

[00:14:14] I think it's improved too up to this point where I think it was very very well done

[00:14:18] Everyone I've talked to

[00:14:20] Who are fans of the show and have been watching all agree they're like season one was good, but it suffered under the weight of the world building

[00:14:28] It was a little clumpy clunk

[00:14:31] It was a little clunky and slow this season is just

[00:14:36] Just like full speed ahead and it's been

[00:14:39] Like I liked first season but season two is so good

[00:14:43] Just so good. Yeah, I and I've also heard of it quite a few people who

[00:14:48] Either didn't watch the whole first season or fell off partway through or watched it and didn't like it and weren't gonna watch the second season

[00:14:54] And then on recommendation from other people have gone back in and gone. Yes, I see what you're saying

[00:15:00] Definitely. Yeah

[00:15:01] Season two has really kicked it up, which just makes me so excited for the next three seasons

[00:15:05] If we do get to see them, um, you know that

[00:15:08] They're just gonna keep getting better and better and i'm super excited for it

[00:15:12] Me too

[00:15:13] Even though we have to wait a really long time

[00:15:16] I know

[00:15:18] At least two years I assume

[00:15:20] Exactly

[00:15:23] A lot of my notes are kind of in order of the episode because

[00:15:27] I just had so much to write down and think about but

[00:15:31] It might be a good idea to go right to where we go next in the episode which is over into the east and

[00:15:36] Talk about what's happening there

[00:15:39] Um, yeah

[00:15:40] So we have we have the dark wizard asking the stranger to join him

[00:15:46] And the stranger

[00:15:49] Says well, what does that kind of mean and then you get this whole scene where he's um, he's

[00:15:55] Like basically holding holding nori and poppy at knife point and um, and pretending like he's just not that threatening

[00:16:03] But then he kind of is and I quite liked that the dark wizard was a bit ambiguous in this scene

[00:16:08] We kind of weren't sure is he is he a good guy is he a bad guy?

[00:16:12] Um, and

[00:16:14] Yeah, I just

[00:16:16] I found it really interesting that they used old friend a couple of times because

[00:16:20] That's very reminiscent of saruman and we've talked before about maybe potentially as a saruman

[00:16:25] I think we can talk a little bit about it here and not just in the spoiler section because

[00:16:29] Lots people are speculating now that we know it's gandalf and gandalf and saruman kind of go together

[00:16:34] Yeah, a lot of people are wondering if it's him and the criticism of that obviously is that saruman was good

[00:16:40] To start with right through until you know partway through the third age when he kind of came under sauron spell

[00:16:47] Um, so there's a lot of chit chat around whether he's an earlier version of saruman and then is he gonna die?

[00:16:54] And then is he gonna come back and be the good version or is he not saruman at all?

[00:16:57] Yeah, and the fact that they used old friend twice was very interesting to me because that's exactly what saruman calls

[00:17:04] Gandalf and

[00:17:06] Yeah, and the physical markers are still very saruman

[00:17:10] And yes, it's completely possible that the we don't really know what the blue wizards are supposed to look like so

[00:17:16] They could look like that. I mean, it's kind of a standard wizard look

[00:17:20] But his staff looks like saruman's staff to me. It's got a similar design

[00:17:27] And the old friend thing

[00:17:30] I don't know I thought the scene between the two of them was was interesting the the dark wizard

[00:17:36] um keeps changing the subject the stranger keeps sort of trying to pin him down and be like what

[00:17:41] But are you trying to ally with sauron?

[00:17:44] And he's like, oh you and I should ally and he just keeps not answering the strangers questions

[00:17:52] and

[00:17:52] um, and then finally he sort of says

[00:17:56] What frustrates me and it happens in modern politics all the time is

[00:18:01] Well, if sauron wins there's going to be so much suffering. So i'm

[00:18:06] Basically the lesser of two evils you should ally with me and at least we'll be better than if sauron wins and it's like

[00:18:14] But you're still

[00:18:15] like a bad guy

[00:18:17] That you

[00:18:19] Aren't yeah good and and the stranger clearly wants to be

[00:18:25] Holy good. He's not

[00:18:27] Interested in power. That's why he passed the test

[00:18:30] Is because he only wants power as a tool

[00:18:33] Not for its own sake

[00:18:35] Yeah, and but he also says something about um

[00:18:39] About

[00:18:40] We would be his successors or we would take over and be better than him or something like that which which sounded dark to me

[00:18:47] Like hang on are you saying that you would you know?

[00:18:50] That you would be

[00:18:52] Taking over as the evil

[00:18:54] I think

[00:18:56] Yeah, I think from his perspective. It's not good evil. It's in charge not in charge

[00:19:01] And he's like we would be in charge and wouldn't that be better than sauron?

[00:19:05] Yeah, but it's like

[00:19:07] Maybe but like we've already seen that you

[00:19:10] Practice blood magic and you're okay with killing

[00:19:14] Innocent harfoots and you did something to these nomadic people that they have to wear these metal masks

[00:19:20] We don't know what but that was you like you're not a nice person

[00:19:25] We don't want you in charge either

[00:19:27] And he has no problem with trashing their entire

[00:19:30] Home yeah

[00:19:31] That's the other thing

[00:19:33] One of the things that I've that I feel has not been

[00:19:37] Like explained the best is

[00:19:40] Why is so I understand

[00:19:43] Galadriel thinking that sauron's a threat because it's been thousands of years

[00:19:47] She's been looking for him ever since he kind of disappeared obviously now we've got the

[00:19:51] The in-story back story of him being slimed for a couple of thousand years

[00:19:56] But for these other people especially

[00:19:59] I mean, we don't know the age of these

[00:20:01] We don't we don't really know how long

[00:20:03] The dark wizard's been there. We don't actually know how long

[00:20:07] The mystics have been around or these these masked people

[00:20:11] We know that the lifespan of the of the harfoots and the stores is is not long

[00:20:17] You know, maybe around 100 years

[00:20:19] Why is this whole idea that sauron is such a threat

[00:20:23] there? Because in the story he's really only been back

[00:20:30] And in his non-slime form for maybe some months

[00:20:34] Yeah

[00:20:35] And no one knows that he's back yet. No one knows until you know, he's showing his face in Eregion and people realize that

[00:20:42] Anatar is sauron and stuff but in this other area

[00:20:44] Why is everyone so stressed out about sauron when he hasn't been around for several thousand years?

[00:20:49] Did you kind of feel like that was explained or did you get an idea of that?

[00:20:52] I think

[00:20:53] I think Tom Bombadil clearly knows what's up

[00:20:57] Right, and he has powers we don't understand. So he knows that sauron is a threat and is coming

[00:21:02] I assume the dark wizard with his powers

[00:21:07] knows that sauron is a threat and and

[00:21:11] That it's a future threat right that it's like he knows he's not there right now, but he's like that's coming

[00:21:17] And who knows maybe he has a volunteer maybe, you know, wizards have ways of knowing things

[00:21:23] Or maybe when he was meeting with Tom Bombadil, Bombadil was like it's your job to oppose sauron

[00:21:29] The same way he said it to the stranger and

[00:21:32] And so he knows it and maybe he's spreading fear, right?

[00:21:36] Maybe he's told all these nomads and

[00:21:38] the mystics and everyone like

[00:21:42] I'm

[00:21:42] I was sent from the Valar to oppose sauron and

[00:21:46] You all have to help me oppose sauron. So you have to do what I say

[00:21:51] You know?

[00:21:52] Yeah, and that that sort of shows the opposite of what we see from Gandalf because yes, we know that the the wizards

[00:21:58] The astari are sent by the valar to assist against sauron. That's their job

[00:22:02] But that what they're supposed to do is they're supposed to do that in a subtle way

[00:22:06] They're supposed to come in and

[00:22:09] Basically rally the peoples of middle earth to fight this evil but not have a really

[00:22:13] Strong individual part in it themselves and they're supposed to not really say who they are as well

[00:22:18] They're not supposed to go around going I am an emissary of the valar

[00:22:21] They're supposed to just be these wise kind of

[00:22:25] Beings that come in and help to influence in a positive way

[00:22:27] And so it's almost like the dark wizard is if he's one of the you know astari

[00:22:32] He's kind of missing the brief from the beginning in terms of how he's supposed to influence these these peoples

[00:22:40] Which is it which is really interesting and again if he's if he's saruman, I just don't see how that fits

[00:22:45] Yeah, but and and saying that I you know

[00:22:49] There's been a few things where i've gone. Oh, how is that going to work?

[00:22:52] And then it did work, you know the very beginning I was like, I don't want this to be gandalf. It's wrong

[00:22:55] They've made it work. They've made it work really well

[00:22:58] So I trust them to to you know show us and I just think there's been so many mystery boxes all the way through

[00:23:04] They have to leave the season with having at least one mystery to go who's this guy?

[00:23:09] They finally solved the two seasons worth of is it gandalf and now we have to play is it saruman for a bit?

[00:23:14] Yeah, seriously, I um, I have to admit this wasn't my favorite part of the finale. I was like, yeah

[00:23:20] Yeah, yeah, we kind of all predicted that this is exactly how this would go

[00:23:24] We even predicted that gandalf would find his staff from that tree that was you know special to the stores, so

[00:23:32] It it all sort of went the way we thought it was gonna go more or less. So I

[00:23:39] I just didn't find it to be that interesting. I was like, yeah, it's gandalf. We knew that already. Thank you

[00:23:46] Um, yeah, i'm glad it's over

[00:23:48] Yeah, I found it satisfying to see but I also because everything else was so exciting. I did find it a little bit distracting to go back there

[00:23:57] um

[00:23:58] Yeah, did did you notice that when uh

[00:24:02] Nori was sitting there packing up all of the stuff and doing a bit of sorting and tidying?

[00:24:08] She had gandalf's staff next to her and she just shoved it off the shelf onto the ground. Yeah

[00:24:13] I didn't notice that on like my third viewing and I went hey, that's the staff

[00:24:17] Which you know, to her it's just a broken piece of wood

[00:24:20] Yeah, it was great. It was really cool. This is completely not relevant to the story, but I couldn't help noticing

[00:24:27] that gandalf's hair looked fire like really looked good and you're a curly-haired person

[00:24:33] I'm a curly-haired person. I was like, I want to know what products

[00:24:37] he's using that is keeping his hair like in those perfect

[00:24:41] like oh, I just woke up like this waves

[00:24:45] Especially in the desert. Yeah, I was like, how is he doing that? He looks amazing

[00:24:49] Also Farazhan. Farazhan has amazing beautiful waves as well. I was like and he's got those white streaks

[00:24:56] Farazhan's hair is also really on point

[00:24:58] That's a lot of good hair

[00:25:00] Even even Annatar wearing the Halbrand costume

[00:25:03] Um, yeah, I think they curled his hair up a little bit there was less kind of straggly scruffy Aragorn and more kind of

[00:25:09] John Snow like

[00:25:10] Yeah, he looked good

[00:25:12] When he when he showed up as as Halbrand I was like that's like clean pretty Halbrand

[00:25:17] It's not exactly the Halbrand she remembers

[00:25:20] It's like magical better looking Halbrand

[00:25:25] Beautiful hair tangent

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[00:26:25] We'll probably pop back into the east towards the end when we're talking about how the episode wrapped up

[00:26:31] But that's kind of it for now I think

[00:26:33] Yeah

[00:26:33] It was good to just pop back there and see what was happening and

[00:26:37] And then we can get back into some more action

[00:26:40] Shall we go over to Numenor next?

[00:26:42] Yeah, I think that's a great place to go

[00:26:45] Awesome

[00:26:47] Yeah, so Farazon's there and he's gathering the faithful and

[00:26:52] You know, they're basically playing the absolute politician game of spinning what happened

[00:26:58] So in the last few episodes we saw that

[00:27:02] Miriel had to undergo the sea trial and they were expecting it was a really good way to just get rid of her

[00:27:06] But now when that happened

[00:27:08] It's clear that the Valar do support her

[00:27:11] So they had to spin that and his way of spinning it was

[00:27:14] They say that Miriel bewitched the sea and that the way that she was able to do that is because she has this ally with cunning powers

[00:27:22] So they're pretty much saying to everybody that she's got Sauron on side and that's why she's able to

[00:27:27] To influence the Valar which I thought was very clever and horrible

[00:27:32] And technically true because she was allied with Halbrand not knowing that he was Sauron

[00:27:38] So it's not

[00:27:41] Exactly a lie. It's just a misrepresentation of the situation

[00:27:45] Yeah

[00:27:46] And also i'm like where is your proof?

[00:27:49] What are you going to tell everyone you looked in the Palantir?

[00:27:53] Because

[00:27:54] That was part of your argument against Miriel to begin with was the Palantir so

[00:28:01] At the end they show her sort of standing trial

[00:28:04] And i'm like how is he gonna

[00:28:07] What's his evidence like how is he gonna back up his claims?

[00:28:12] I just think he he can say what he wants now because he's rounded up the faithful

[00:28:16] He's basically said that if you're faithful to the Valar and to the old ways that you are now a traitor

[00:28:23] And he's got everybody locked up so i think he can kind of do what he likes and even if there are people in

[00:28:28] The general population who don't agree with it they're going to be afraid of being locked up too

[00:28:31] So it's a yeah absolutely classic kind of tyrannical thing to do

[00:28:35] Um

[00:28:37] And yeah, we we see the leaves of the trees are falling so we can see that the Valar are you know

[00:28:45] Not not supporting what's happening

[00:28:47] Um, I quite liked Iyari and starting to redeem herself

[00:28:52] I was finding her so irritating and I I actually loved seeing her

[00:28:57] Use some of that power that she had to to help Alindiel

[00:29:01] So, you know, she she she was told to round up the faithful and she didn't know why and then when she sees what's happening

[00:29:08] She's like, oh, no, I'm out of here and she backs out the door and you can see far as on give give her that kind of look under his eyebrows

[00:29:15] As she leaves and then she heads out and then when they're about to find

[00:29:20] Alindiel she basically uses her authority to say move along which I thought was really really cool

[00:29:25] Oh, it was fantastic. She was full

[00:29:28] Snotty when she was like shall I tell Farazan about your subordination? I was like, yeah, yeah use it girl

[00:29:34] How dare you? Um, I did think why is Alindiel now working in a bar?

[00:29:40] Was that what he I couldn't really tell like where he was or what he was doing?

[00:29:44] It did look like he was wiping the table. Yeah, he's wiping tables in the pub

[00:29:48] It's like well, I suppose he's got to earn a living now. He's not the sea captain

[00:29:51] But isn't he like a wealthy doesn't he have like a home outside the city and and wealth?

[00:29:58] Like I would have just if I were him in that situation

[00:30:00] I guess he doesn't want to leave the queen, but I would have been like let's go to my country house like I

[00:30:05] I wouldn't have stayed there had to be a way for her to find him and then for him to to run off so

[00:30:10] I could I could buy it. Yeah, that's all good

[00:30:13] And then of course he goes off to um to convince Mariel to leave

[00:30:17] um

[00:30:18] And and she that she refuses to leave she's going to stay there and stay with her people

[00:30:24] Captain goes down with the ship

[00:30:26] Yeah, and then she gives him Narsil and it was it was such a beautiful scene

[00:30:31] But I kind of wanted it to be longer. It was so short and I love everything between these two all the scenes that they've had together

[00:30:36] I just think are captivating and they've got such amazing chemistry

[00:30:38] I also wanted to know more about Narsil and I I imagine you have some more to

[00:30:44] Help us out, but she's like it's called Narsil and then he picks it up and he's so

[00:30:50] Mimicked exactly aragorn's

[00:30:53] Movements when he got Narsil in fellowship of the ring that had to be completely intentional

[00:30:59] The camera work was similar his motions were similar the way he held the sword was similar

[00:31:05] um, but I was like

[00:31:07] Is this an I?

[00:31:09] I don't know the background is Narsil an existing blade or did she have it made for him?

[00:31:14] Is it

[00:31:14] Like is there something special about it because I know what's special about it by the time we get

[00:31:19] to lord of the rings

[00:31:20] But yeah at this point is it just a nice sword like what's the story?

[00:31:26] Yeah, so we actually

[00:31:28] See the sword in the background in season one

[00:31:31] So this is the first part where you see her kind of walking through when she's looking towards the palantir

[00:31:36] There's a bunch of different kind of relics in the background and you could see Narsil very very um

[00:31:41] Clearly in the background there, but yeah right in the back

[00:31:43] Um, and they've obviously

[00:31:46] Uh followed the design of the um of what we see in the lord of the rings when we when we see the sword later

[00:31:54] And both of those designs are based on john howe who's one of the um, one of the the concept artists who's worked on both productions

[00:32:01] So it's really cool that you see it looking the same. We know it's the same sword

[00:32:05] and

[00:32:06] uh, yeah, she doesn't she doesn't really say much. She just says this is Narsil and you can tell that he knows that it's really special

[00:32:13] Which is which is cool and like you say we get that same

[00:32:17] Drawing of the sword in the same way that aragorn does later

[00:32:20] Um, so the sword itself it was um

[00:32:23] It's very old. So it was it was forged probably in the first age

[00:32:27] It was forged by telkar who was a a really famous dwarven smith

[00:32:31] And he was probably top three smiths ever along with faenor and calabrimbor

[00:32:37] So he was this really really famous renowned smith um who made this sword

[00:32:41] And not you don't really see anything any mention of it or or what happened with it or it doesn't really come into the stories

[00:32:47] Um during the second age until elindiel gets it

[00:32:50] So this is really the first kind of time that we see we know that it's existed for a long time

[00:32:54] But this is the first time that we see it in the story

[00:32:57] um when elindiel gets it

[00:33:00] And Narsil is a quenya name. It means red and white flame

[00:33:03] And I think he says in this scene the white flame when he turns it over and he sort of sees that little sigil on the on the scabbard

[00:33:10] Um, and we do know from the books and movies that it is a very important sword later

[00:33:14] I'm going to leave that for the galadriel's mirror spoiler section just because people might not want to know

[00:33:19] But um, yeah, we've got a little bit more on that

[00:33:21] Um in case anyone is um very fresh and just wants to see what happens in this story

[00:33:26] Um, but yeah, I think I would have liked I think it got across

[00:33:30] The importance of it

[00:33:31] But I just would have liked a little bit more time with these two and a little bit more

[00:33:37] In this scene, um, I saw I've seen a couple of memes about this actually

[00:33:43] And one of them was quite it was really funny. It was like

[00:33:46] Hey, let's get out of here. No, i'm gonna stay but I would never leave you. Here's a sword. Oh shiny. Okay. Bye

[00:33:56] She kind of distracts him and changes the subject he goes

[00:33:59] But uh how why would you think that I would ever be so cowardly as to leave you and she's like here's a sword

[00:34:04] Ooh, yeah, she does say that it's a command that he

[00:34:10] Leave that he reclaim his lordship and his destiny

[00:34:15] And I think making it a command is the only way she was going to get him to do it

[00:34:20] Yes, he he would only do it do it under those circumstances and and I do like that reminder for us all that

[00:34:27] He he does have noble blood. He does come from a line of kings. He's not just a sea captain

[00:34:31] So it's nice to have that reminder now and to know that he's going to go off and do that and

[00:34:35] It does keep more to the law that she's going to stay there um in the city and you know

[00:34:41] Stuff will ensue later on

[00:34:42] It makes me sad because I think that that was the last scene we're going to get with the two of them

[00:34:48] Right, they're separated now their stories are going in different directions and I loved them together

[00:34:53] I thought they had a wonderful mutual respect

[00:34:57] Even though he was very

[00:35:00] Deferent to her because she was the queen

[00:35:03] She was very

[00:35:06] Appreciative of his integrity and his value and his faith and

[00:35:12] I just I loved them together. I mean, i'm not a big shipper, but

[00:35:16] I was like kiss kiss

[00:35:18] Kiss before you say goodbye

[00:35:22] I loved them too and I loved that and we mentioned it in another episode. I loved that

[00:35:28] I also wanted them to kiss, but I loved that they didn't and I love that little

[00:35:32] For forehead touch that they had that just felt so much more intimate and powerful because I don't think it is just a romantic love

[00:35:38] I think that they're so drawn to each other. They respect each other

[00:35:42] There's kind of a noble courtly kind of love there as well as the as the they kind of fancy each other type thing

[00:35:48] So yeah, I I don't

[00:35:50] I don't feel that it is the last time we'll see them together

[00:35:54] So he's headed off to the other side of the island. She's going to stay in the city, but there's still a lot more that has to happen in Numenor before

[00:36:02] Before the end of that storyline, so

[00:36:04] I think they're going to probably have another scene or two together

[00:36:09] I don't know what that'll look like, but I feel I feel like that's coming. I don't think el and deal's gone from the city and that's it

[00:36:15] Okay, good

[00:36:17] He did mention

[00:36:18] His son anarion which is good because I know a lot of fans are like what about an area and like they've been wanting to know

[00:36:24] So he he name dropped him so we know that an arian is in the west

[00:36:28] And that's where el and deal is headed and then of course his escape is exactly the vision he had in the palantir and

[00:36:36] You see in the background like all this smoke rising from the city

[00:36:41] and

[00:36:42] When we saw the soldiers running around like rounding up the faithful

[00:36:47] There wasn't fire involved. So i'm like what is causing that smoke is there the breakout of civil war are people resisting like what's happening

[00:36:55] In Numenor in the background?

[00:36:58] Uh

[00:37:00] We we don't know. Maybe we'll find out in season three

[00:37:03] Yeah, it was it wasn't that clear but it was super satisfying to see his vision come true and it was him leaving the city

[00:37:09] I thought that was very well done

[00:37:12] That was really cool

[00:37:14] All right, I I think that's probably about it for Numenor

[00:37:18] Yeah, it was just enough to to finish up the storyline and set the table for season three

[00:37:23] It was like the perfect amount of that story for this finale

[00:37:27] Yep, exactly just like with the dwarves. It was like that's what we wanted to see and let's move on

[00:37:32] To the good stuff. Yeah, I mean it was good but also the even more exciting stuff

[00:37:37] Um, what do you want to talk about next?

[00:37:40] Yeah, let's just deal with pelar gear and and

[00:37:44] What happened there and get that out of the way?

[00:37:47] Because I was like I don't care about these stories at all. I don't care about estrid. I have no investment in the isiel door estrid romance

[00:37:55] I just don't care. I care about theo and his story and um

[00:38:00] I continue to just hate kemin

[00:38:04] Uh, I thought it was so interesting that when isiel door walks up and is like is that kemin that kemin says your sister will be so pleased to

[00:38:12] Hear that we found you i'm like you didn't find him

[00:38:16] What are you talking about you didn't find him you just were he like he came up to you

[00:38:20] But then they have a little like nepo baby face off right where they're like my dad's is

[00:38:26] No, my dad is the king now

[00:38:28] And then it's just like it was such an icky little face off

[00:38:31] But between the two of them even though I like isiel door

[00:38:35] I didn't really enjoy him being like that. My dad is the captain to the queen

[00:38:39] And then kemin threatens to kill the horse and I was like come on man. I already hated you

[00:38:44] Like yeah, don't threaten the horse

[00:38:48] He's doing such an amazing job. I just love that

[00:38:51] He's so good

[00:38:52] Like from the beginning, you know when we first saw him and he was so nicey-picey and as he he was you know, like

[00:38:59] Trying to flirt with the yardian and it was you know trying to get respect from his dad and it was like oh

[00:39:04] This poor little guy and now he's just like I just think that he's doing such a phenomenal job

[00:39:10] Really um portraying this

[00:39:12] Absolutely hateful character and just the the face acting that he's doing you know when he stands there and he sees a seal door

[00:39:18] And the reaction and the the myriad of of emotions that are crossing his face

[00:39:24] He hasn't learned to control that yet as a as a

[00:39:27] Character, you know

[00:39:28] The actors doing an amazing job of showing that but right he doesn't have farizan's diplomacy

[00:39:34] Farizan is no and cagey

[00:39:36] And kemin is right on the surface

[00:39:39] Exactly and farizan has learned to wait and watch so

[00:39:43] Very many scenes that you see with farizan. He is

[00:39:46] He's just sitting and watching and letting stuff happen and not showing anything on his face. He's got really good poke face

[00:39:52] But kemin is just letting everything show and his his you know, he gets off the ship and he's all cocky

[00:39:58] And he's all like I don't care who you and your mother are kind of thing to theo and but then when he sees his seal door

[00:40:03] He's like oh my god. What am I going to do with this information?

[00:40:06] Oh wait hang on i'm annoyed, but I have to pretend that i'm pleased to see him and all this happens within a split second

[00:40:12] Which is really beautiful? Um

[00:40:14] And I noticed actually for the first I didn't notice the first couple times he's he's wearing a sling

[00:40:18] Yeah, his arm is hard. Yeah

[00:40:20] Yeah, he's got a belt sling and some people were saying how can you have your

[00:40:24] Your shoulder dislocated and they have no repercussions. So I really like that little touch

[00:40:27] But uh, yeah, it was really cool to see that's that scene between the two of them and I

[00:40:32] I've I feel the same with you about a silda and estuid i'm not too bothered by whether they're together or not together

[00:40:40] um, but I did like how

[00:40:43] A silda was basically reacting to kemin and saying yep. Um

[00:40:48] This is how things are and kemin goes no, it's not and this is a seal do you know

[00:40:52] He he doesn't know this information about how could he gone down and moving or so

[00:40:56] He's pretty upset by it obviously

[00:40:59] Um, I did find it

[00:41:01] One thing I did find a bit confusing and it wasn't I don't think explored as much as it could have been was

[00:41:06] The whole thing between estuid and hagen

[00:41:08] So she says yeah, okay, he's building me this house and um, but i'm not happy about it

[00:41:13] And then you know, she and a silda kiss and it's all very sweet and music and everything like that

[00:41:18] And he says come with me to numenor and then it looks like she's gonna go because they're standing there by the ship and and he goes

[00:41:24] Oh, hey, can she come with me pretty much and it seemed to me like kemin is is saying?

[00:41:30] Okay, you're allowed to come because you are

[00:41:32] kind of noble blood

[00:41:34] But no one else can come and then a silda says yeah

[00:41:37] But can't we make an exception because I am kind of noble and special and can't she come with me and hagen's just standing there

[00:41:43] Yeah, and he's not saying anything. Yeah or doing anything

[00:41:46] And then at the end when is the door gets on the ship without her

[00:41:49] He like holds her hand hagen is like

[00:41:53] Whatever I if you stay you stay and if you go you go i'm fine either way

[00:41:58] Like he doesn't seem to care

[00:42:01] Yeah, but yeah, I mean I wonder whether that's intentional, you know, she says that she she mistook his potentially mistook his kindness just for love

[00:42:08] Maybe he's just a very calm mellow kind person and he loves her and he does want what want her to be happy

[00:42:14] And maybe if she was to go he was actually going to be okay with that

[00:42:17] But that's too good to be true. Yeah

[00:42:19] You want it just

[00:42:20] It just added to my whole like I don't care about the story. It's just dumb

[00:42:25] um

[00:42:26] I have a feeling that the order that kemin gives to the people that they have to bring him timber

[00:42:33] To make an armada is going to really upset the entes and i'm hoping it means we get the entes back

[00:42:40] In season three because he says they're just trees and i'm like oh, they're not just trees kemin

[00:42:45] You gotta look out and I the idea of of one of those entes picking kemin up and like shaking him makes me really happy

[00:42:52] Just like

[00:42:53] It was cool. Like I said, it was a surprise to see him there, but I do like how they're they're moving that story along and that's pretty true to the story as well

[00:43:02] You know, that was a numenorean outpost and I think it's really cool that they've brought them back there and they're kind of taking control

[00:43:08] Um

[00:43:09] I did really like the scene with the steel door and theo

[00:43:12] I thought it was lovely how theo kind of brought up again about their mums and and um

[00:43:17] They had this really connecting moment and it was really special. Um

[00:43:21] And

[00:43:22] Again, it made me think uh, I wonder if they are gonna become the witch king because he's close to a seal door and there's going to be some

[00:43:29] Betrayal later on way later on in the story

[00:43:31] I don't know if they're going to be able to manage that but um, I think it was really cool

[00:43:35] You know with quite a lot of time without seeing them

[00:43:38] To have them tied up together at the end as well and have their storyline kind of

[00:43:43] Um, yeah, just kind of completed for now. Yeah, we'll see what happens. Their relationship is nice theo and is ill door

[00:43:49] It's very much

[00:43:50] Yeah, sort of brotherly mentor mentee and you get the sense that is ill's door is like oh

[00:43:57] I never thought of myself as being the older brother, right?

[00:44:00] I've always been the the screw-up baby of the family and now here's this younger

[00:44:05] Person looking up to me. I kind of like it

[00:44:08] He's had a chance to be a mentor and I think it's one of the first steps for him towards becoming a leader

[00:44:14] You know as he as he does become later and I

[00:44:17] I I did like his

[00:44:19] I wasn't a big fan of him in season one and I mean I again

[00:44:23] I think the actor's doing an amazing job, but the character itself I found him quite annoying in season one and in season two

[00:44:29] He's definitely grown on me a little bit and especially with this kind of development of him admitting that um

[00:44:36] He's basically admitting that he was kind of sheltered and spoiled, you know and any he basically says I I hadn't realized

[00:44:41] You know that there are bigger things here in middle earth than I had imagined um, which is really nice to hear

[00:44:47] You know given what we yeah, he's matured a lot. I think being you know tied up by spiders really

[00:44:52] Um

[00:44:53] Gave him some time to think

[00:44:55] That helped and a little bit of time in the in the belly of the of the nameless thing in the swamp

[00:45:01] A little bit of mud time

[00:45:03] That helped

[00:45:04] Yeah

[00:45:06] That's all good. I think that's probably it for palagia

[00:45:08] Yeah, and I think we need to get into the main

[00:45:12] Yeah, main meat of the story. Yeah, the best stuff

[00:45:16] There are so many

[00:45:19] Approaches to what's left to talk about right there's like

[00:45:24] Annatar and Celebrimbor there's the

[00:45:26] Basically the sack of Eregion there's Galadriel and Adar there's Galadriel and Annatar there's just there's a lot

[00:45:34] It's so good. Let's kind of go in order and start with Sauron and Celebrimbor

[00:45:38] Yeah, because this is what we've been leading up to all season long and

[00:45:43] It was oh, it was just incredible to watch

[00:45:47] um

[00:45:48] And

[00:45:49] Just charlie vickers. I mean, I don't know if they're going to give out any nominations acting nominations for this show

[00:45:56] But both the charlies need a nomination

[00:45:59] Oh, they're

[00:46:00] Just incredible

[00:46:02] They're both wonderful and together

[00:46:05] They are magical their their chemistry together is fantastic. That scene was so powerful

[00:46:11] When he says look what you've done to yourself

[00:46:15] I wanted to reach through the screen and like smack him like

[00:46:19] You did it you did this but he

[00:46:22] His perspective is consistent

[00:46:25] Sauron thinks

[00:46:26] I'm just trying to help. Why can't you just do what I tell you to do?

[00:46:30] I'm just trying to

[00:46:31] I'm trying to share your your magic rings with the world like

[00:46:35] Why are you forcing me to torment you?

[00:46:38] And then he like reaches over and like twangs one of the arrows which you know is

[00:46:42] Wildly painful to keller brimbor and and it's like

[00:46:46] Are you you have no self-awareness?

[00:46:49] No, and and it's it's that classic narcissist thing of him playing the victim so he's saying

[00:46:54] I but I but you know, I only wanted to to share these with the world

[00:46:58] You're the one who's stopping me from doing this

[00:46:59] So he's kind of making it seem as though keller brimbor is holding him back from this noble cause

[00:47:04] So he's he's painting keller brimbor as the villain

[00:47:07] And you know that that he's standing there all regal in his robes and there's keller brimbor on the ground

[00:47:13] Covered in blood and stuck with arrows and the most vulnerable, you know tragic position

[00:47:19] And for him to say look what you've done to yourself and

[00:47:22] He looks so psychotic. I just think Charlie Vickers. I mean, he's scared

[00:47:27] He scared me that scene his eyes the way his eyes looked at this is

[00:47:31] Something about this sort of shiny quality to them. That is really terrifying

[00:47:35] Um, and then tweaking the arrows

[00:47:38] You know, we see in in the book it mentions that he he

[00:47:43] Torchers keller brimbor

[00:47:45] And most of what we see in the um appendices and then also quite a lot and this and were in the other works as well

[00:47:52] They they just mention it in one line. So basically

[00:47:57] Sauron tortured keller brimbor to find out where the rings were

[00:48:00] That's pretty much it. You don't get dialogue. You don't get um how he tortured and you don't get detail

[00:48:05] Um, but we do know that he was also shot with a lot of arrows and I loved that they combined the two

[00:48:09] They didn't have him pulling out fingernails. They didn't have him, you know branding him or all these other torture devices

[00:48:15] They basically used what was already in the story shot him with arrows and then tweaking the arrows

[00:48:20] Yeah, was the torture which was so well done and just so

[00:48:25] Horrible and keller brimbor

[00:48:27] was

[00:48:29] visibly in pain

[00:48:31] but

[00:48:32] refusing to give

[00:48:34] Sauron

[00:48:35] the satisfaction

[00:48:37] right he wasn't screaming

[00:48:39] or crying and then he starts

[00:48:41] talking about oh it must be around noon and the king fishers

[00:48:45] used to be able to hear them coming to the river and I was like

[00:48:48] he knows he's about to die and he just wants to

[00:48:51] remember

[00:48:55] Yeah

[00:48:55] Yeah

[00:48:56] And yeah

[00:48:56] And also to thwart

[00:48:58] Sauron

[00:48:59] So he's just talking about anything else

[00:49:01] other than the rings because he's like I'm

[00:49:03] I'm not gonna tell you what you want to know

[00:49:05] And yeah

[00:49:06] It was so

[00:49:08] powerful and

[00:49:09] and sad

[00:49:11] And um

[00:49:14] And I had so much

[00:49:16] respect for

[00:49:17] keller brimbor

[00:49:19] being able to

[00:49:20] sort of swallow his pain and

[00:49:23] and be defiant to the very last moment

[00:49:26] Yes

[00:49:27] He kept his dignity

[00:49:28] He's so dignified and

[00:49:31] you know when they first sort of

[00:49:33] introduced keller brimbor

[00:49:34] and season one he sort of seemed a bit like the

[00:49:36] the bumbling uncle a little bit and

[00:49:38] I wasn't sure how they were gonna

[00:49:40] you know explore this whole

[00:49:42] this whole

[00:49:43] part of the story

[00:49:45] but the way they have

[00:49:47] slowly built this up over the season

[00:49:49] has been incredible

[00:49:51] to show

[00:49:52] how and why he was able to be

[00:49:54] influenced and

[00:49:55] and sucked in

[00:49:56] and there's also a part that he said in the previous episode where

[00:50:00] he kind of knew

[00:50:01] part of him knew

[00:50:02] but he also just wanted the thing

[00:50:05] Yeah

[00:50:05] So

[00:50:05] he admits to why he was able to be influenced and

[00:50:10] but at the end he keeps his dignity and

[00:50:14] he doesn't

[00:50:15] plead

[00:50:15] he doesn't beg

[00:50:16] he's

[00:50:17] he doesn't even ask him to stop

[00:50:19] he's just basically there

[00:50:20] and knows that his time is coming soon

[00:50:23] and

[00:50:23] but I did look

[00:50:24] there was one look where

[00:50:26] I think it was right after

[00:50:27] when Sauron says

[00:50:29] look what you've done to yourself

[00:50:30] and he

[00:50:30] and keller brimbor looks at sarah like

[00:50:32] he can't believe the madness

[00:50:34] like he looks at him like

[00:50:35] you

[00:50:35] are off for the charts

[00:50:37] and

[00:50:38] it's incredible and I just love how he says

[00:50:41] um

[00:50:41] but the rings are beyond your reach

[00:50:43] as I shall be ere long

[00:50:44] for soon I shall go on the shores of the morning

[00:50:46] born hence

[00:50:47] on a wind that you can never follow

[00:50:48] and he's just quietly saying this

[00:50:50] and that

[00:50:51] that's a torture to Sauron

[00:50:53] because Sauron knows that he can't

[00:50:54] you know

[00:50:55] he's

[00:50:56] um

[00:50:57] he

[00:50:57] he's

[00:50:59] ah

[00:51:01] I've lost my words because I'm so

[00:51:03] this is so

[00:51:03] um

[00:51:04] it's the ultimate thing to do to a narcissist

[00:51:07] is

[00:51:08] the thing that

[00:51:09] that narcissists crave more than anything else

[00:51:12] is

[00:51:12] attention and drama

[00:51:14] and

[00:51:15] yeah

[00:51:15] if a

[00:51:17] narcissist can get attention from you

[00:51:19] they start with

[00:51:20] usually they start with

[00:51:21] kindness and love

[00:51:22] they love bomb right

[00:51:23] and that's what

[00:51:25] that's what he did in the beginning

[00:51:26] you're so brilliant

[00:51:27] I just want to help you realize your craft

[00:51:30] blah blah blah

[00:51:30] you're the best smith in the world

[00:51:32] blah blah blah

[00:51:32] and then you know

[00:51:34] when they don't get that

[00:51:35] they turn

[00:51:35] and they become

[00:51:36] mean

[00:51:37] and they torment people

[00:51:38] and what they want when they do that

[00:51:41] when a narcissist turns

[00:51:43] they want you to fight them

[00:51:44] they want you to scream

[00:51:47] and cry

[00:51:47] and tell them how horrible they are

[00:51:49] they want the drama

[00:51:50] and Celebrimbor is not

[00:51:53] giving him his supply

[00:51:55] and it's

[00:51:56] killing and

[00:51:57] angering

[00:52:00] Annatar Sauron

[00:52:01] so much

[00:52:03] he's like

[00:52:05] you could

[00:52:06] you could feel this tension in him

[00:52:07] where he's like

[00:52:08] oh just

[00:52:09] cry already

[00:52:10] like

[00:52:10] why aren't you screaming in pain

[00:52:12] and then

[00:52:14] yeah

[00:52:14] you know he says

[00:52:15] after that speech

[00:52:16] is when

[00:52:16] Annatar says like

[00:52:18] oh I can keep you alive

[00:52:19] for a long time

[00:52:20] I'm the master of my craft

[00:52:21] and Celebrimbor

[00:52:22] that's what

[00:52:23] that

[00:52:23] that is too much

[00:52:24] for Celebrimbor

[00:52:25] he's like

[00:52:26] craft

[00:52:27] that's not a craft

[00:52:28] oh you're a master

[00:52:29] of his treachery

[00:52:29] and it will betray

[00:52:31] the very hand

[00:52:32] that forges it

[00:52:32] and I'm like

[00:52:33] so Celebrimbor

[00:52:34] has a little prophetic

[00:52:36] powers as well

[00:52:37] right

[00:52:38] he's like

[00:52:38] I've seen it

[00:52:39] you're gonna be a prisoner

[00:52:40] of the rings

[00:52:41] and

[00:52:42] yeah

[00:52:43] that

[00:52:43] there's one

[00:52:44] that's gonna be

[00:52:45] your undoing

[00:52:45] and I'm like

[00:52:46] all right

[00:52:46] so you know

[00:52:47] that's prophecy

[00:52:47] that's

[00:52:48] that's good

[00:52:49] I love when he called him

[00:52:50] a shadow of Morgoth

[00:52:51] like

[00:52:52] you're not even

[00:52:53] you're not even

[00:52:54] the real bad guy

[00:52:54] you're just like

[00:52:55] a cheap knockoff

[00:52:56] of the bad guy

[00:52:58] yeah

[00:52:58] yeah

[00:52:59] and that's it

[00:52:59] like

[00:53:00] I've

[00:53:01] learned a little bit more

[00:53:02] about narcissism as well

[00:53:03] through watching this

[00:53:04] and

[00:53:05] that my understanding

[00:53:06] is that often

[00:53:07] narcissist is quite

[00:53:08] addicted to that

[00:53:09] attention and that

[00:53:10] admiration from the

[00:53:11] person that is their

[00:53:12] target

[00:53:12] so in that way

[00:53:14] you can also see

[00:53:14] why he

[00:53:15] wants to keep

[00:53:17] Celebrimbor alive

[00:53:17] so it's not just

[00:53:18] about him wanting

[00:53:19] to get the information

[00:53:20] about the rings

[00:53:21] he needs to keep

[00:53:22] him alive

[00:53:22] because like you say

[00:53:23] that's his supply

[00:53:24] that's the way

[00:53:24] he gets his

[00:53:25] his admiration

[00:53:27] and his

[00:53:28] feeds his addiction

[00:53:29] pretty much

[00:53:30] and what I loved

[00:53:31] was at that

[00:53:32] that part where

[00:53:33] Celebrimbor

[00:53:34] had had enough

[00:53:35] and he

[00:53:36] is basically

[00:53:37] right

[00:53:37] I'm just gonna

[00:53:38] wind him up now

[00:53:38] so he kills me

[00:53:39] quickly

[00:53:39] and I think

[00:53:40] it was very

[00:53:40] intentional of him

[00:53:41] oh yeah

[00:53:42] and you know

[00:53:43] when Anatar first

[00:53:44] shows up

[00:53:44] he calls Celebrimbor

[00:53:46] the lord of the rings

[00:53:47] as a compliment

[00:53:48] and I think that

[00:53:49] helps to suck

[00:53:49] Celebrimbor in

[00:53:50] and just say

[00:53:51] yeah wow

[00:53:51] this is cool

[00:53:52] I can be this

[00:53:52] amazing

[00:53:53] you know

[00:53:53] smith

[00:53:55] but I just loved

[00:53:56] how Celebrimbor

[00:53:57] turned that

[00:53:57] name back on Sauron

[00:53:59] you're their prisoner

[00:54:00] you're the lord of the rings

[00:54:01] and

[00:54:03] and he says

[00:54:04] that one alone

[00:54:04] will be his ruin

[00:54:05] and I also loved

[00:54:06] that that was a bit

[00:54:07] ambiguous

[00:54:07] he could mean

[00:54:08] one ring

[00:54:08] but he could also

[00:54:09] mean one person

[00:54:10] I love that

[00:54:11] it could be

[00:54:11] one alone

[00:54:12] will be your ruin

[00:54:13] and we know

[00:54:14] from the stories later

[00:54:15] that that's Frodo

[00:54:16] and potentially

[00:54:17] depending on your thoughts

[00:54:18] Sam

[00:54:18] is the one

[00:54:19] that actually

[00:54:21] defeats him

[00:54:21] yeah

[00:54:22] yeah

[00:54:23] so there's a lot

[00:54:24] there's a lot

[00:54:24] that he could be saying

[00:54:25] in that

[00:54:25] and I don't

[00:54:25] I love that

[00:54:26] he doesn't say

[00:54:27] one ring

[00:54:27] will be your ruin

[00:54:28] he just says

[00:54:28] one alone

[00:54:29] and I just think

[00:54:30] that was beautifully

[00:54:31] written

[00:54:32] and then of course

[00:54:34] Sauron goes into

[00:54:35] that absolute rage

[00:54:36] and he stabs him

[00:54:38] with the spear

[00:54:38] and then raises him up

[00:54:40] against the column

[00:54:42] and this is such

[00:54:43] a great nod to the book

[00:54:44] so we've talked about

[00:54:45] this quite a lot before

[00:54:46] in the spoiler section

[00:54:47] for people who didn't

[00:54:48] want to be spoiled

[00:54:48] with this

[00:54:49] but we can talk about it

[00:54:50] now that in the book

[00:54:52] as I said

[00:54:53] he was tortured

[00:54:54] to find out the location

[00:54:55] of the rings

[00:54:57] in the book

[00:54:58] he does give away

[00:54:59] the location

[00:55:00] of the seven

[00:55:00] and the nine

[00:55:01] but he does not

[00:55:01] give away

[00:55:02] the location

[00:55:02] of the three

[00:55:04] and he's shocked

[00:55:05] through with arrows

[00:55:05] and then he's raised

[00:55:06] on a pike

[00:55:07] and he's paraded

[00:55:08] as a banner

[00:55:09] in front of the

[00:55:09] Alvin army

[00:55:10] so that's why

[00:55:11] I said before

[00:55:12] Calabrim banner

[00:55:12] that's a word

[00:55:13] that's been going

[00:55:14] around on the interwebs

[00:55:15] people wanted to see

[00:55:16] the Calabrim banner

[00:55:17] I didn't

[00:55:18] and I loved

[00:55:20] that they

[00:55:22] paid tribute

[00:55:22] to that

[00:55:23] by raising him

[00:55:24] up on the pike

[00:55:25] but I loved

[00:55:26] that it was

[00:55:27] just the intimate

[00:55:27] scene between

[00:55:28] the two of them

[00:55:29] I don't think

[00:55:29] they needed

[00:55:30] the extreme

[00:55:34] graphicness

[00:55:34] of what it would

[00:55:35] have been like

[00:55:35] to have him

[00:55:36] on a pike

[00:55:36] in front of the army

[00:55:37] I think this was

[00:55:38] perfect

[00:55:39] it was beautifully

[00:55:40] done enough

[00:55:40] to be paying

[00:55:41] tribute to the book

[00:55:42] but also

[00:55:43] that it was

[00:55:45] just between

[00:55:45] the two of them

[00:55:46] and then you see

[00:55:49] Sauron's tears

[00:55:50] and part of me

[00:55:52] was

[00:55:52] it's so complex

[00:55:53] there's so many

[00:55:54] reasons for Sauron

[00:55:55] to cry

[00:55:56] in this moment

[00:55:56] and part of me

[00:55:57] was thinking

[00:55:58] is it just

[00:55:59] remorse

[00:55:59] is he sad

[00:56:00] that he's lost

[00:56:01] Calabrimbo

[00:56:02] is it his own

[00:56:03] loss because

[00:56:04] he didn't get

[00:56:05] the rings

[00:56:07] I think he did

[00:56:08] admire and respect

[00:56:08] Calabrimbo

[00:56:09] even though he

[00:56:10] was his victim

[00:56:10] I think he had

[00:56:11] I think right up

[00:56:12] to the end

[00:56:14] there was a part

[00:56:15] of him that was

[00:56:16] like but we're

[00:56:17] friends

[00:56:18] why don't you

[00:56:19] understand that

[00:56:20] I love you

[00:56:21] and

[00:56:22] yeah I'm here

[00:56:23] for you

[00:56:23] I talked

[00:56:23] with somebody

[00:56:24] on the internet

[00:56:24] about this

[00:56:25] that

[00:56:26] in Sauron's

[00:56:28] head

[00:56:29] he's a good

[00:56:30] guy

[00:56:30] he's just

[00:56:31] trying to help

[00:56:32] and he's so

[00:56:34] misunderstood

[00:56:35] and lonely

[00:56:36] and his

[00:56:38] relationship

[00:56:39] with Calabrimbo

[00:56:40] was very

[00:56:41] satisfying for

[00:56:41] him for a

[00:56:42] long time

[00:56:42] because

[00:56:43] they both

[00:56:44] are Smiths

[00:56:45] and they

[00:56:46] they like

[00:56:47] creating things

[00:56:47] and there

[00:56:48] were genuine

[00:56:49] bonds there

[00:56:50] about

[00:56:51] you know

[00:56:52] bonding over

[00:56:52] method

[00:56:53] and remember

[00:56:54] how excited

[00:56:54] they were

[00:56:54] when they

[00:56:55] were talking

[00:56:55] about making

[00:56:56] an alloy

[00:56:57] in season

[00:56:58] one

[00:56:59] yeah

[00:57:00] that was a

[00:57:00] genuine

[00:57:01] connection

[00:57:02] yeah

[00:57:03] and he's

[00:57:04] lost like

[00:57:05] he's lost

[00:57:06] who he thinks

[00:57:07] is his best

[00:57:07] friend

[00:57:08] and

[00:57:09] yeah

[00:57:09] and this

[00:57:10] is typical

[00:57:11] of narcissists

[00:57:11] is that

[00:57:12] they don't

[00:57:13] they don't

[00:57:14] have an

[00:57:14] ongoing

[00:57:15] memory of

[00:57:16] the pain

[00:57:16] they cause

[00:57:17] other people

[00:57:17] once they're

[00:57:18] done causing

[00:57:18] the pain

[00:57:19] it's over

[00:57:20] for them

[00:57:21] and so

[00:57:22] in his mind

[00:57:23] like there

[00:57:23] was still a

[00:57:24] chance that

[00:57:24] Caleb Rimbaud

[00:57:25] was gonna

[00:57:25] like be like

[00:57:27] no you're

[00:57:27] you're right

[00:57:28] we should

[00:57:28] share these

[00:57:29] rings with

[00:57:29] the world

[00:57:31] and they

[00:57:32] were gonna

[00:57:32] you know

[00:57:33] be together

[00:57:35] and he's

[00:57:36] genuinely sad

[00:57:38] yeah he is

[00:57:39] and that'll

[00:57:40] come up later

[00:57:40] in the scene

[00:57:41] with him

[00:57:41] and Galadriel

[00:57:42] as well

[00:57:43] just in terms

[00:57:44] of him

[00:57:44] you know

[00:57:45] still thinking

[00:57:46] that he can

[00:57:46] win someone

[00:57:47] over

[00:57:47] we'll talk

[00:57:48] about that

[00:57:48] too later

[00:57:48] but it did

[00:57:49] remind me

[00:57:49] of this

[00:57:50] scene too

[00:57:51] I think

[00:57:52] he does

[00:57:52] mourn

[00:57:52] the loss

[00:57:53] of that

[00:57:53] talent

[00:57:53] so he

[00:57:54] mourns

[00:57:54] that connection

[00:57:55] that they

[00:57:55] had

[00:57:56] the loss

[00:57:56] of the

[00:57:56] talent

[00:57:57] of

[00:57:57] Calabrim

[00:57:57] but he's

[00:57:59] also annoyed

[00:57:59] that he's

[00:58:00] lost his

[00:58:00] target

[00:58:00] you know

[00:58:01] he's lost

[00:58:01] his obsession

[00:58:01] and he's

[00:58:02] probably

[00:58:02] disappointed

[00:58:03] in himself

[00:58:03] at heart

[00:58:04] narcissists

[00:58:05] are very

[00:58:05] insecure

[00:58:06] and he's

[00:58:07] disappointed

[00:58:07] that he

[00:58:08] had lost

[00:58:09] the plot

[00:58:09] and killed

[00:58:09] him in a

[00:58:10] rage

[00:58:10] he's spent

[00:58:11] a lot

[00:58:11] of time

[00:58:11] trying to be

[00:58:12] very measured

[00:58:13] and very

[00:58:14] calm

[00:58:14] and you know

[00:58:14] think of

[00:58:15] every single

[00:58:15] scene where

[00:58:16] someone touches

[00:58:17] him and you can

[00:58:18] tell that he's

[00:58:18] he hates

[00:58:19] that but he's

[00:58:20] kept it

[00:58:20] very buttoned

[00:58:21] down and

[00:58:22] very inside

[00:58:25] and then I

[00:58:26] think lastly

[00:58:27] I think the

[00:58:28] other complex

[00:58:29] part of it

[00:58:30] is that I

[00:58:30] think it's

[00:58:32] also sadness

[00:58:33] and bitterness

[00:58:33] for himself

[00:58:34] that he can

[00:58:35] never have

[00:58:36] the integrity

[00:58:36] and the

[00:58:37] dignity

[00:58:37] and that

[00:58:38] inner beauty

[00:58:39] that Calabrimbo

[00:58:39] has

[00:58:40] he knows

[00:58:41] that Calabrimbo

[00:58:42] has that

[00:58:42] and he will

[00:58:42] never have

[00:58:43] it

[00:58:43] and he can

[00:58:44] have all

[00:58:44] of these

[00:58:45] facades

[00:58:45] that he

[00:58:45] creates

[00:58:46] and all

[00:58:46] of these

[00:58:47] pretend

[00:58:47] relationships

[00:58:48] that he

[00:58:48] fosters

[00:58:49] but he'll

[00:58:50] never have

[00:58:50] those true

[00:58:51] and real

[00:58:51] things

[00:58:52] because of

[00:58:52] who he

[00:58:53] is

[00:58:53] and I

[00:58:53] think he

[00:58:54] realizes

[00:58:54] that

[00:58:55] I found

[00:58:56] a really

[00:58:56] cool

[00:58:57] interview

[00:58:58] with

[00:58:58] Charlie

[00:58:59] Vickers

[00:59:00] I'm afraid

[00:59:01] I don't

[00:59:01] know the

[00:59:01] source

[00:59:02] because I

[00:59:02] found it

[00:59:02] on somebody's

[00:59:03] comment on

[00:59:04] some

[00:59:04] Facebook

[00:59:04] thing

[00:59:05] somewhere

[00:59:05] but this

[00:59:06] is Charlie's

[00:59:07] words

[00:59:08] so he

[00:59:09] somebody

[00:59:10] asked him

[00:59:12] was the

[00:59:12] was the

[00:59:13] tear planned

[00:59:13] you know

[00:59:14] did you

[00:59:14] did you

[00:59:14] sort of

[00:59:15] plan to

[00:59:15] cry

[00:59:15] in that

[00:59:16] scene

[00:59:16] and he

[00:59:17] says

[00:59:17] I don't

[00:59:18] know

[00:59:18] it just

[00:59:19] happened

[00:59:19] that is

[00:59:19] the honest

[00:59:20] truth

[00:59:20] as an

[00:59:21] actor

[00:59:21] you just

[00:59:21] put yourself

[00:59:22] in the

[00:59:22] moment

[00:59:23] and if

[00:59:23] something

[00:59:23] happens

[00:59:24] it

[00:59:24] happens

[00:59:24] it

[00:59:25] never

[00:59:25] happened

[00:59:26] to me

[00:59:26] before

[00:59:26] as

[00:59:27] Sauron

[00:59:27] and I

[00:59:27] didn't

[00:59:27] want to

[00:59:28] block

[00:59:28] that

[00:59:28] if

[00:59:29] they

[00:59:29] use

[00:59:29] it

[00:59:29] they

[00:59:29] use

[00:59:30] it

[00:59:30] and

[00:59:30] they

[00:59:30] did

[00:59:30] use

[00:59:31] it

[00:59:31] but you

[00:59:32] can

[00:59:32] justify

[00:59:32] it

[00:59:32] so

[00:59:33] many

[00:59:33] different

[00:59:33] ways

[00:59:33] he

[00:59:34] had

[00:59:34] a great

[00:59:34] partner

[00:59:34] in

[00:59:35] Calabrimbor

[00:59:35] who was

[00:59:35] the greatest

[00:59:36] of Alvin

[00:59:36] Smiths

[00:59:37] someone he

[00:59:37] revered

[00:59:38] and respected

[00:59:38] they could

[00:59:39] have done

[00:59:39] really great

[00:59:40] things

[00:59:40] together

[00:59:41] Calabrimbor

[00:59:41] could have

[00:59:42] been an

[00:59:42] amazing

[00:59:42] tool

[00:59:43] but he

[00:59:43] killed

[00:59:43] him

[00:59:43] and I

[00:59:44] don't

[00:59:44] think

[00:59:44] he wanted

[00:59:45] to kill

[00:59:45] him

[00:59:45] in that

[00:59:45] moment

[00:59:46] but he

[00:59:46] lost

[00:59:46] control

[00:59:47] which is

[00:59:47] very

[00:59:48] Sauron

[00:59:49] if

[00:59:49] anything

[00:59:49] the tear

[00:59:50] is probably

[00:59:50] more about

[00:59:51] his own

[00:59:51] reflection

[00:59:52] on himself

[00:59:52] what he

[00:59:53] has become

[00:59:53] and his

[00:59:54] history

[00:59:54] with

[00:59:54] Morgoth

[00:59:55] Morgoth

[00:59:55] was very

[00:59:56] nihilistic

[00:59:56] and destroyed

[00:59:57] everything

[00:59:57] he was out

[00:59:58] of control

[00:59:58] all the time

[00:59:59] wrecking

[00:59:59] stuff

[01:00:00] Sauron

[01:00:00] didn't want

[01:00:01] to be

[01:00:01] like that

[01:00:02] and then

[01:00:02] Calabrimbor

[01:00:03] says to him

[01:00:03] you've become

[01:00:04] a slave

[01:00:04] to the

[01:00:04] rings

[01:00:05] they are

[01:00:05] your

[01:00:05] master

[01:00:06] Sauron

[01:00:06] loses

[01:00:07] control

[01:00:07] and kills

[01:00:08] him

[01:00:08] when in

[01:00:08] fact

[01:00:08] he needed

[01:00:09] him

[01:00:09] to tell

[01:00:09] him

[01:00:09] where

[01:00:10] the

[01:00:10] nine

[01:00:10] rings

[01:00:10] were

[01:00:10] there's

[01:00:11] a lot

[01:00:11] of

[01:00:11] sadness

[01:00:12] and anger

[01:00:12] and grief

[01:00:13] at the

[01:00:13] fact

[01:00:13] that he's

[01:00:14] being

[01:00:14] reflected

[01:00:14] in his

[01:00:15] own

[01:00:15] actions

[01:00:16] exactly

[01:00:17] what

[01:00:17] he

[01:00:17] doesn't

[01:00:17] want

[01:00:17] to

[01:00:17] become

[01:00:18] but

[01:00:18] then

[01:00:19] interestingly

[01:00:19] when

[01:00:19] Glug the

[01:00:20] orc

[01:00:20] comes

[01:00:20] in

[01:00:21] you see

[01:00:21] this

[01:00:21] really

[01:00:21] quite

[01:00:22] fast

[01:00:22] transition

[01:00:23] into

[01:00:23] how can

[01:00:23] I

[01:00:24] twist

[01:00:24] this

[01:00:24] now

[01:00:24] and he

[01:00:25] calls

[01:00:25] him

[01:00:25] an

[01:00:25] urdic

[01:00:26] to try

[01:00:26] and get

[01:00:26] him

[01:00:26] on side

[01:00:27] which I

[01:00:27] think

[01:00:27] is

[01:00:27] really

[01:00:28] cool

[01:00:28] writing

[01:00:28] that

[01:00:28] transition

[01:00:29] is

[01:00:29] quite

[01:00:30] unhuman

[01:00:31] so

[01:00:31] I

[01:00:32] really

[01:00:32] liked

[01:00:32] that

[01:00:33] because

[01:00:33] it

[01:00:33] showed

[01:00:33] that

[01:00:33] he

[01:00:34] first

[01:00:35] of

[01:00:35] all

[01:00:43] that

[01:00:43] he

[01:00:44] can

[01:00:44] be

[01:00:45] that

[01:00:46] moved

[01:00:46] by

[01:00:46] something

[01:00:47] that

[01:00:47] affected

[01:00:48] by

[01:00:48] something

[01:00:48] and

[01:00:49] then

[01:00:49] quick

[01:00:49] as

[01:00:49] anything

[01:00:50] turns

[01:00:50] around

[01:00:51] and

[01:00:51] goes

[01:00:51] how

[01:00:51] can

[01:00:51] I

[01:00:51] now

[01:00:52] like

[01:00:52] you

[01:00:52] say

[01:00:52] you

[01:00:53] forget

[01:00:53] instantly

[01:00:53] the pain

[01:00:54] that

[01:00:54] you've

[01:00:54] caused

[01:00:54] and

[01:00:55] so

[01:00:55] now

[01:00:55] what

[01:00:55] can

[01:00:55] I

[01:00:55] do

[01:00:55] to

[01:00:56] twist

[01:00:56] this

[01:00:57] situation

[01:00:57] to my

[01:00:57] benefit

[01:00:58] it's

[01:00:59] it's

[01:01:00] an

[01:01:00] incredible

[01:01:01] writing

[01:01:01] and

[01:01:03] for

[01:01:04] anyone

[01:01:04] who

[01:01:05] has

[01:01:05] experienced

[01:01:06] narcissistic

[01:01:07] abuse

[01:01:08] it's

[01:01:08] incredibly

[01:01:09] familiar

[01:01:09] to me

[01:01:10] it's

[01:01:10] very

[01:01:11] familiar

[01:01:11] and

[01:01:14] also

[01:01:14] cathartic

[01:01:16] seeing

[01:01:17] it

[01:01:17] portrayed

[01:01:18] in this

[01:01:18] way

[01:01:19] in these

[01:01:19] sort of

[01:01:20] epic

[01:01:20] proportions

[01:01:21] of good

[01:01:22] versus

[01:01:22] evil

[01:01:23] it's

[01:01:24] comforting

[01:01:25] to me

[01:01:25] to see

[01:01:26] that even

[01:01:27] Caleb

[01:01:27] Rimbore

[01:01:28] fell

[01:01:28] victim

[01:01:29] to this

[01:01:29] and

[01:01:31] that

[01:01:31] it's

[01:01:32] not

[01:01:33] always

[01:01:33] something

[01:01:34] that you

[01:01:34] can see

[01:01:35] and it's

[01:01:35] not

[01:01:36] something

[01:01:36] you can

[01:01:36] always

[01:01:37] defeat

[01:01:37] and

[01:01:38] regular

[01:01:39] people

[01:01:40] fall

[01:01:40] victim

[01:01:40] to

[01:01:41] narcissists

[01:01:41] all the

[01:01:42] time

[01:01:42] and

[01:01:43] it's

[01:01:43] not

[01:01:43] a

[01:01:44] moral

[01:01:44] failure

[01:01:45] to do

[01:01:46] so

[01:01:46] because

[01:01:47] they are

[01:01:48] very

[01:01:48] to borrow

[01:01:50] a phrase

[01:01:51] from Tolkien

[01:01:52] Trixie

[01:01:56] absolutely

[01:01:57] and

[01:01:57] you know

[01:01:59] just I

[01:01:59] just want

[01:01:59] to sort

[01:01:59] of make

[01:02:00] it clear

[01:02:00] for people

[01:02:01] as well

[01:02:01] you know

[01:02:02] often

[01:02:03] in just

[01:02:04] normal

[01:02:04] life

[01:02:05] people

[01:02:05] can

[01:02:06] accuse

[01:02:07] someone

[01:02:07] of being

[01:02:07] narcissistic

[01:02:08] or a

[01:02:08] narcissist

[01:02:09] and that

[01:02:09] can just

[01:02:10] be used

[01:02:10] as a

[01:02:11] word

[01:02:11] to describe

[01:02:12] somebody's

[01:02:13] personality

[01:02:14] traits

[01:02:14] or the

[01:02:15] way

[01:02:15] somebody

[01:02:15] acts

[01:02:16] but

[01:02:16] narcissistic

[01:02:17] personality

[01:02:17] disorder

[01:02:18] is actually

[01:02:19] a mental

[01:02:20] health

[01:02:20] disorder

[01:02:21] that can

[01:02:22] be

[01:02:22] diagnosed

[01:02:22] and we

[01:02:24] did get

[01:02:24] some

[01:02:24] really

[01:02:25] interesting

[01:02:25] information

[01:02:26] sent

[01:02:26] through

[01:02:26] from

[01:02:27] Jason

[01:02:27] who

[01:02:28] has

[01:02:28] done

[01:02:29] a bit

[01:02:29] of research

[01:02:29] of his

[01:02:29] own

[01:02:29] around

[01:02:30] narcissism

[01:02:30] and

[01:02:32] I'd like

[01:02:32] to read

[01:02:33] that now

[01:02:33] because I

[01:02:33] think it

[01:02:33] gives a

[01:02:34] really good

[01:02:34] clear

[01:02:35] indication

[01:02:35] so we're

[01:02:36] not just

[01:02:36] talking about

[01:02:36] somebody

[01:02:37] who is

[01:02:38] a bit

[01:02:38] mean

[01:02:38] we're

[01:02:39] talking about

[01:02:39] an actual

[01:02:41] disorder

[01:02:42] right

[01:02:42] a diagnosable

[01:02:43] condition

[01:02:44] a diagnosis

[01:02:44] yeah

[01:02:45] and so

[01:02:46] this is

[01:02:47] a disorder

[01:02:48] that's

[01:02:48] in the

[01:02:49] DSM-5

[01:02:49] which is

[01:02:50] the Diagnostic

[01:02:50] and Statistical

[01:02:51] Manual

[01:02:52] of Mental

[01:02:52] Disorders

[01:02:53] and so

[01:02:53] that's

[01:02:53] what

[01:02:54] psychiatrists

[01:02:55] use to

[01:02:56] diagnose

[01:02:56] people

[01:02:57] based on

[01:02:57] specific

[01:02:59] outlines

[01:02:59] of what

[01:03:00] that behaviour

[01:03:00] is

[01:03:00] so there's

[01:03:02] nine

[01:03:03] main factors

[01:03:05] and five

[01:03:06] of the

[01:03:06] criteria

[01:03:06] need to

[01:03:07] be present

[01:03:07] to meet

[01:03:08] this

[01:03:08] diagnosis

[01:03:08] so the

[01:03:09] factors

[01:03:09] are

[01:03:09] grandiose

[01:03:11] sense

[01:03:11] of self

[01:03:11] importance

[01:03:12] exaggerates

[01:03:13] achievement

[01:03:13] and talents

[01:03:14] expects to

[01:03:15] be recognised

[01:03:16] as superior

[01:03:17] without

[01:03:17] commensurate

[01:03:18] achievements

[01:03:19] the second

[01:03:20] one is

[01:03:20] fantasies

[01:03:20] of unlimited

[01:03:21] success

[01:03:22] power

[01:03:22] brilliance

[01:03:23] beauty

[01:03:23] or ideal

[01:03:24] love

[01:03:24] belief

[01:03:27] in being

[01:03:27] special

[01:03:28] and unique

[01:03:28] and can

[01:03:29] only be

[01:03:29] understood

[01:03:29] by

[01:03:30] or should

[01:03:30] be

[01:03:31] associated

[01:03:31] with other

[01:03:32] special

[01:03:32] or high

[01:03:33] status

[01:03:33] people

[01:03:33] requires

[01:03:34] excessive

[01:03:35] admiration

[01:03:36] a sense

[01:03:37] of entitlement

[01:03:38] or especially

[01:03:39] favourable

[01:03:39] treatment

[01:03:40] or automatic

[01:03:40] compliance

[01:03:41] with his

[01:03:42] or her

[01:03:42] expectations

[01:03:43] interpersonally

[01:03:44] exploitative

[01:03:45] takes advantage

[01:03:46] others to

[01:03:47] achieve his

[01:03:47] or her

[01:03:47] own

[01:03:48] ends

[01:03:48] lacks

[01:03:49] empathy

[01:03:49] unwilling

[01:03:50] to recognise

[01:03:51] or identify

[01:03:51] with the

[01:03:52] feelings

[01:03:52] and needs

[01:03:52] of others

[01:03:53] envious

[01:03:54] of others

[01:03:54] or beliefs

[01:03:55] that others

[01:03:55] are envious

[01:03:55] of him

[01:03:56] or her

[01:03:56] arrogant

[01:03:57] haughty

[01:03:58] behaviours

[01:03:58] or attitudes

[01:03:59] and Jason

[01:04:00] felt like

[01:04:01] Sauron

[01:04:02] meets seven

[01:04:03] of those

[01:04:03] but probably

[01:04:04] actually all

[01:04:05] nine

[01:04:05] if we really

[01:04:05] look into

[01:04:06] it

[01:04:06] there's a

[01:04:06] little bit

[01:04:07] of room

[01:04:07] for the

[01:04:08] grandiosity

[01:04:09] in the

[01:04:10] fact that

[01:04:10] he is

[01:04:11] like a

[01:04:11] supernatural

[01:04:13] being

[01:04:14] of the

[01:04:15] Valar

[01:04:15] and so

[01:04:16] I mean

[01:04:17] he is kind

[01:04:17] of special

[01:04:19] yeah

[01:04:19] yeah

[01:04:20] exactly

[01:04:20] yeah

[01:04:21] that's one

[01:04:22] of those

[01:04:22] ones

[01:04:22] where it's

[01:04:23] actually

[01:04:23] yeah

[01:04:23] he's

[01:04:24] in a

[01:04:24] fantasy

[01:04:25] he's not

[01:04:25] actually

[01:04:25] going to

[01:04:26] be

[01:04:26] diagnosed

[01:04:27] by a

[01:04:27] psychiatrist

[01:04:28] in this

[01:04:28] situation

[01:04:29] he's not

[01:04:29] human

[01:04:29] and so

[01:04:31] his

[01:04:31] outsized

[01:04:32] expectations

[01:04:33] of you

[01:04:34] know

[01:04:34] his own

[01:04:35] abilities

[01:04:35] and

[01:04:35] his own

[01:04:36] powers

[01:04:37] and the

[01:04:37] outcome

[01:04:38] are

[01:04:38] they're

[01:04:38] not as

[01:04:39] unrealistic

[01:04:39] as they

[01:04:40] would be

[01:04:40] in a

[01:04:40] human

[01:04:41] exactly

[01:04:42] yeah

[01:04:42] and then

[01:04:43] Jason went

[01:04:44] on to

[01:04:45] to

[01:04:45] explain

[01:04:46] a little

[01:04:46] bit about

[01:04:47] his thoughts

[01:04:47] regarding

[01:04:48] how this

[01:04:49] diagnosis

[01:04:50] fits in

[01:04:50] with

[01:04:50] Sauron

[01:04:51] he says

[01:04:52] anecdotally

[01:04:53] just going

[01:04:53] through a bunch

[01:04:54] of YouTube

[01:04:54] videos of

[01:04:54] people

[01:04:55] who have

[01:04:55] had

[01:04:55] relationships

[01:04:55] with

[01:04:56] narcissists

[01:04:56] he fits

[01:04:57] a lot

[01:04:57] of those

[01:04:57] too

[01:04:58] for example

[01:04:58] a narcissist

[01:04:59] often starts

[01:05:00] by love

[01:05:00] bombing

[01:05:00] or praising

[01:05:01] someone to

[01:05:01] high heaven

[01:05:02] until they

[01:05:02] fall deeply

[01:05:03] for him

[01:05:03] or her

[01:05:04] it doesn't

[01:05:04] have to be

[01:05:05] a romantic

[01:05:05] relationship

[01:05:06] it can be

[01:05:06] in a

[01:05:07] professional

[01:05:07] capacity

[01:05:08] just like

[01:05:08] with Sauron

[01:05:09] and Calibra

[01:05:09] and Boar

[01:05:09] and then

[01:05:10] over time

[01:05:11] the narcissist

[01:05:12] starts seeing

[01:05:12] flaws in the

[01:05:13] other person

[01:05:13] or gets bored

[01:05:14] with them

[01:05:14] because it's

[01:05:15] no longer

[01:05:15] a challenge

[01:05:16] they become

[01:05:16] intermittently

[01:05:17] cold which

[01:05:18] makes the

[01:05:18] person feel

[01:05:19] even more

[01:05:19] attached

[01:05:20] the narcissist

[01:05:21] will start

[01:05:21] criticising

[01:05:22] making the

[01:05:25] which they

[01:05:25] respond to

[01:05:26] by striving

[01:05:26] harder

[01:05:27] for the

[01:05:27] narcissist's

[01:05:27] approval

[01:05:28] narcissists

[01:05:29] often gaslight

[01:05:30] denying a

[01:05:30] person's

[01:05:30] reality

[01:05:31] and making

[01:05:31] them feel

[01:05:32] crazy

[01:05:32] they'll do

[01:05:33] this pattern

[01:05:33] called

[01:05:33] DARVO

[01:05:34] deny

[01:05:35] attack

[01:05:35] and reverse

[01:05:36] victim

[01:05:37] and offender

[01:05:37] where when

[01:05:38] accused of

[01:05:38] something

[01:05:39] they'll turn

[01:05:39] it around

[01:05:39] and accuse

[01:05:40] the other

[01:05:40] person of

[01:05:41] the same

[01:05:41] thing

[01:05:41] and act

[01:05:42] like a

[01:05:42] victim

[01:05:42] Sauron

[01:05:43] totally did

[01:05:43] that

[01:05:44] to Calibra

[01:05:44] and Boar

[01:05:44] the sad

[01:05:45] part once

[01:05:46] the narcissist

[01:05:46] has passed

[01:05:47] the love

[01:05:47] bombing phase

[01:05:48] is they'll

[01:05:48] string the

[01:05:49] person along

[01:05:49] and treat

[01:05:49] them horribly

[01:05:50] they'll also

[01:05:51] at the same

[01:05:51] time be

[01:05:51] sharing

[01:05:52] other

[01:05:52] people

[01:05:52] with

[01:05:52] love

[01:05:53] bombing

[01:05:53] moving

[01:05:53] on to

[01:05:53] new

[01:05:54] sources

[01:05:54] of

[01:05:54] narcissistic

[01:05:55] supply

[01:05:56] and side

[01:05:57] note from

[01:05:57] me I think

[01:05:58] we saw that

[01:05:58] a little bit

[01:05:59] with

[01:05:59] Murdania

[01:06:01] all the while

[01:06:01] the first person

[01:06:02] is feeling like

[01:06:03] it's their fault

[01:06:03] this is happening

[01:06:04] trying to get

[01:06:05] back to the

[01:06:05] initial high

[01:06:05] of the

[01:06:06] relationship

[01:06:06] but from

[01:06:07] what I've

[01:06:07] heard and

[01:06:08] read it's

[01:06:08] impossible

[01:06:08] to get it

[01:06:09] back

[01:06:09] sometimes the

[01:06:10] narcissist

[01:06:10] will throw

[01:06:11] out little

[01:06:11] bits of

[01:06:11] praise

[01:06:12] called

[01:06:12] breadcrumbing

[01:06:12] to make

[01:06:13] the person

[01:06:13] think it's

[01:06:14] possible

[01:06:14] but really

[01:06:15] they're just

[01:06:15] stringing them

[01:06:15] along

[01:06:16] and then when

[01:06:16] things go

[01:06:17] really bad

[01:06:17] the narcissist

[01:06:18] will badmouth

[01:06:19] the person

[01:06:19] to all

[01:06:19] their mutual

[01:06:20] friends

[01:06:20] make it

[01:06:21] seem like

[01:06:21] they're

[01:06:21] coming from

[01:06:22] a place

[01:06:22] of care

[01:06:22] like isn't

[01:06:23] it too

[01:06:23] bad he's

[01:06:23] having such

[01:06:24] a hard time

[01:06:24] with things

[01:06:25] or you know

[01:06:25] rings

[01:06:26] again Sauron

[01:06:27] totally did

[01:06:28] this to the

[01:06:28] point where

[01:06:29] everyone just

[01:06:29] accepted him

[01:06:30] as the new

[01:06:30] leader of

[01:06:31] Eregion

[01:06:31] narcissists

[01:06:32] are often

[01:06:32] really charming

[01:06:33] and so people

[01:06:34] don't see

[01:06:34] through all of

[01:06:35] this

[01:06:35] there's a lot

[01:06:36] more but I

[01:06:36] agree that the

[01:06:37] writers of the

[01:06:37] rings of

[01:06:38] power must have

[01:06:38] done some research

[01:06:39] into narcissism

[01:06:40] and I agree

[01:06:41] with all of that

[01:06:41] thank you so

[01:06:42] much Jason

[01:06:46] well portrayed

[01:06:47] and so well

[01:06:48] written on screen

[01:06:48] that you know

[01:06:49] the writers

[01:06:50] either have

[01:06:51] personal

[01:06:51] first hand

[01:06:52] experience or

[01:06:52] they've done

[01:06:53] the proper

[01:06:53] research into

[01:06:54] what this

[01:06:54] looks like

[01:06:55] and it's

[01:06:56] beautifully done

[01:06:57] it's really

[01:06:57] really well

[01:06:57] done

[01:06:59] I hope

[01:07:00] that it

[01:07:00] helps some

[01:07:00] people

[01:07:01] I hope

[01:07:01] that there

[01:07:02] are people

[01:07:02] who see

[01:07:03] the pattern

[01:07:05] maybe listen

[01:07:06] to us talk

[01:07:06] about it

[01:07:07] and say

[01:07:07] oh that's

[01:07:08] a pattern

[01:07:09] in a

[01:07:10] relationship

[01:07:10] in my own

[01:07:11] life

[01:07:12] and if

[01:07:13] the pattern

[01:07:13] continues

[01:07:15] it's never

[01:07:16] going to be

[01:07:17] better

[01:07:18] I need

[01:07:19] to end

[01:07:19] this relationship

[01:07:20] and get

[01:07:20] out of it

[01:07:21] to that end

[01:07:22] we are going

[01:07:23] to include

[01:07:23] some resources

[01:07:25] in the show

[01:07:26] notes

[01:07:26] if you're

[01:07:27] in a

[01:07:29] situation

[01:07:29] that you

[01:07:30] need help

[01:07:30] getting out

[01:07:31] of there

[01:07:31] are resources

[01:07:32] out there

[01:07:34] yeah

[01:07:34] we'll put

[01:07:35] a few links

[01:07:35] in the show

[01:07:36] notes

[01:07:36] and we really

[01:07:37] hope that

[01:07:39] that might

[01:07:40] help someone

[01:07:40] and it's

[01:07:41] interesting

[01:07:42] for people

[01:07:42] from an

[01:07:43] outside

[01:07:43] perspective

[01:07:43] who have

[01:07:44] been lucky

[01:07:44] enough

[01:07:44] to never

[01:07:44] deal with

[01:07:45] anybody

[01:07:45] who's a

[01:07:45] narcissist

[01:07:46] to look

[01:07:47] at and

[01:07:47] recognise

[01:07:47] what that

[01:07:48] is

[01:07:49] and we

[01:07:50] are aware

[01:07:51] that this

[01:07:51] is probably

[01:07:51] triggering

[01:07:52] for some

[01:07:52] people

[01:07:52] both watching

[01:07:53] the show

[01:07:53] and potentially

[01:07:54] the conversation

[01:07:55] that we've

[01:07:55] just had

[01:07:55] so please

[01:07:56] do reach

[01:07:57] out and

[01:07:57] have a wee

[01:07:57] look at

[01:07:57] those show

[01:07:58] notes

[01:07:58] if you'd

[01:07:58] like to

[01:07:59] find out

[01:07:59] a little bit

[01:08:00] more information

[01:08:00] and look

[01:08:01] after yourself

[01:08:02] and remembering

[01:08:02] as well

[01:08:03] it's not always

[01:08:04] a romantic

[01:08:04] relationship

[01:08:05] as Jason

[01:08:05] said

[01:08:05] often it can

[01:08:06] be

[01:08:06] you can

[01:08:07] experience

[01:08:07] it

[01:08:07] at work

[01:08:08] you can

[01:08:08] experience

[01:08:09] it with

[01:08:09] family

[01:08:10] with friends

[01:08:11] and it's

[01:08:12] really important

[01:08:12] to be able

[01:08:12] to recognise

[01:08:13] those signs

[01:08:13] and do something

[01:08:16] before it gets

[01:08:16] too damaging

[01:08:17] so yeah

[01:08:20] it's tragic

[01:08:21] as we saw

[01:08:22] it never ends

[01:08:23] well

[01:08:25] exactly

[01:08:25] yeah

[01:08:26] and just

[01:08:26] so beautifully

[01:08:28] shown on the

[01:08:29] screen and I

[01:08:29] think respectfully

[01:08:30] as well

[01:08:30] and realistically

[01:08:31] I mean as much

[01:08:32] as you can be

[01:08:32] realistic when

[01:08:33] you're talking

[01:08:33] about elves

[01:08:34] and Maya

[01:08:35] but you know

[01:08:36] in terms of

[01:08:37] the personal

[01:08:37] relationships

[01:08:37] that happened

[01:08:38] it was

[01:08:39] beautifully

[01:08:39] done

[01:08:39] so I really

[01:08:41] enjoyed

[01:08:42] the way

[01:08:42] that they

[01:08:42] were able

[01:08:43] to recreate

[01:08:44] that on

[01:08:44] screen

[01:08:44] and yeah

[01:08:46] that scene

[01:08:47] is as

[01:08:48] painful

[01:08:48] as it is

[01:08:49] to watch

[01:08:50] I could

[01:08:50] watch it

[01:08:50] a hundred

[01:08:51] times

[01:08:51] just for

[01:08:52] the acting

[01:08:52] and for

[01:08:53] the poetic

[01:08:54] nature

[01:08:54] of how

[01:08:54] they manage

[01:08:55] the dialogue

[01:08:56] and everything

[01:08:56] was just

[01:08:57] so incredible

[01:08:57] loved it

[01:08:58] I saw

[01:08:59] I watched

[01:09:01] a lot of

[01:09:01] videos

[01:09:02] of the

[01:09:03] cast

[01:09:03] over the

[01:09:04] last week

[01:09:05] or so

[01:09:06] you know

[01:09:06] both

[01:09:07] official

[01:09:08] interviews

[01:09:09] and then

[01:09:09] there were

[01:09:10] a few

[01:09:11] where they

[01:09:11] had cast

[01:09:12] members

[01:09:12] interviewing

[01:09:12] each other

[01:09:14] and the

[01:09:14] actor

[01:09:15] who plays

[01:09:15] Gil

[01:09:16] Gallad

[01:09:16] was

[01:09:17] interviewing

[01:09:18] the two

[01:09:18] Charlies

[01:09:19] and he

[01:09:20] says to

[01:09:20] Charlie Edwards

[01:09:21] so what do

[01:09:22] you think

[01:09:22] is in store

[01:09:23] for you

[01:09:23] in season

[01:09:24] three

[01:09:24] and then

[01:09:25] they all

[01:09:25] just like

[01:09:25] cracked up

[01:09:26] it was

[01:09:27] so funny

[01:09:27] and so

[01:09:28] cute

[01:09:28] and I

[01:09:29] was like

[01:09:29] I'm pretty

[01:09:29] sure

[01:09:30] Charlie Edwards

[01:09:30] is moving

[01:09:31] on to other

[01:09:31] projects

[01:09:32] like this

[01:09:33] is I

[01:09:34] think that's

[01:09:34] a wrap

[01:09:35] on Charlie

[01:09:35] Edwards

[01:09:36] for Rings

[01:09:36] of Power

[01:09:37] maybe there'll

[01:09:37] be a flashback

[01:09:38] or something

[01:09:39] but I

[01:09:40] don't think

[01:09:41] he has a big

[01:09:41] role in season

[01:09:42] three

[01:09:42] he did

[01:09:44] die

[01:09:44] I think

[01:09:45] he's done

[01:09:46] and I

[01:09:47] actually saw

[01:09:48] an interview

[01:09:48] with one

[01:09:49] of the other

[01:09:50] interviews I

[01:09:50] saw with

[01:09:51] Charlie

[01:09:51] Vickers

[01:09:52] was something

[01:09:52] about what

[01:09:53] are they

[01:09:53] going to do

[01:09:54] are they still

[01:09:55] going to do

[01:09:56] the banner

[01:09:56] are they still

[01:09:57] going to

[01:09:57] you know

[01:09:57] but I just

[01:09:58] think that's

[01:09:58] done

[01:09:58] I think

[01:09:58] they've

[01:09:59] paid enough

[01:10:00] tribute

[01:10:00] to it

[01:10:01] and some

[01:10:02] of the

[01:10:02] behind the

[01:10:02] scenes

[01:10:03] stuff

[01:10:04] when they

[01:10:05] you know

[01:10:05] in all TV

[01:10:06] shows and

[01:10:07] movies when

[01:10:07] it's someone's

[01:10:08] last day

[01:10:08] on set

[01:10:08] they

[01:10:09] everybody

[01:10:09] usually goes

[01:10:10] to set

[01:10:11] for their

[01:10:11] last shot

[01:10:11] and everyone

[01:10:12] claps and

[01:10:12] there's usually

[01:10:13] a wee speech

[01:10:13] and stuff

[01:10:13] like that

[01:10:14] but it

[01:10:15] seemed very

[01:10:16] much like

[01:10:16] a series

[01:10:16] wrap for

[01:10:17] him

[01:10:18] that he's

[01:10:19] not coming

[01:10:19] back

[01:10:19] so I think

[01:10:20] he's done

[01:10:21] a phenomenal

[01:10:21] job

[01:10:22] I'm excited

[01:10:23] to see

[01:10:24] what Charlie

[01:10:24] Edwards is

[01:10:25] going to do

[01:10:25] next

[01:10:26] because now

[01:10:26] that I'm

[01:10:27] aware of him

[01:10:27] as an actor

[01:10:28] I'm going to

[01:10:28] start looking

[01:10:29] for him

[01:10:29] and seeing

[01:10:31] his other

[01:10:31] projects

[01:10:31] he's so

[01:10:32] good

[01:10:33] yeah

[01:10:35] well I

[01:10:36] think we

[01:10:36] should move

[01:10:36] over to

[01:10:37] Adar

[01:10:37] and I

[01:10:38] think you

[01:10:38] should

[01:10:38] talk about

[01:10:38] him

[01:10:39] because I

[01:10:39] know that

[01:10:39] he's been

[01:10:40] a favorite

[01:10:40] of yours

[01:10:40] for a while

[01:10:41] yeah I

[01:10:41] do love

[01:10:42] Adar

[01:10:42] I love

[01:10:42] this character

[01:10:43] I think

[01:10:43] the concept

[01:10:44] of somebody

[01:10:45] who started

[01:10:46] off as an

[01:10:47] elf

[01:10:48] wanted power

[01:10:49] was corrupted

[01:10:50] became the

[01:10:51] leader of

[01:10:52] the Uruk

[01:10:52] but that his

[01:10:53] whole goal

[01:10:54] with the

[01:10:54] Uruks was

[01:10:55] for them

[01:10:56] to live

[01:10:58] like the

[01:10:59] other free

[01:10:59] peoples of

[01:11:00] Middle Earth

[01:11:00] he's like we

[01:11:01] just want a

[01:11:01] homeland and

[01:11:02] we want you

[01:11:02] to leave us

[01:11:03] alone and

[01:11:04] then he gets

[01:11:04] obsessed with

[01:11:05] with Sauron

[01:11:05] and he gets

[01:11:06] manipulated by

[01:11:07] Sauron into

[01:11:07] bringing his

[01:11:08] army to

[01:11:08] Eregion

[01:11:09] right that's

[01:11:10] what Sauron

[01:11:10] wanted all

[01:11:11] along and

[01:11:12] the scene

[01:11:13] where Galadriel

[01:11:14] is brought to

[01:11:15] him right she

[01:11:16] turns herself

[01:11:17] in after

[01:11:18] she's uh

[01:11:19] she's gotten

[01:11:20] a handful of

[01:11:21] people out of

[01:11:22] Eregion through

[01:11:22] this dwarf

[01:11:23] tunnel and

[01:11:24] then there's

[01:11:24] orcs waiting

[01:11:25] for them there

[01:11:26] and they bring

[01:11:27] her to

[01:11:28] Adar and

[01:11:28] he's facing

[01:11:29] away from

[01:11:30] her and

[01:11:30] then she

[01:11:31] sees her

[01:11:32] ring on his

[01:11:32] hand and

[01:11:33] he turns

[01:11:34] around and

[01:11:34] he's beautiful

[01:11:35] right he's

[01:11:36] like this

[01:11:36] handsome elf

[01:11:38] man and

[01:11:38] she's like

[01:11:39] like the

[01:11:41] the shock

[01:11:42] for her and

[01:11:43] then you know

[01:11:44] he's like when

[01:11:45] I looked like

[01:11:45] this before I

[01:11:45] had a different

[01:11:46] name she

[01:11:47] asked him

[01:11:47] the name and

[01:11:48] then he's

[01:11:48] like that

[01:11:49] name doesn't

[01:11:49] matter that

[01:11:50] was the name

[01:11:50] that was given

[01:11:50] to me Adar

[01:11:51] is the name

[01:11:51] I earned

[01:11:52] and and

[01:11:54] they start

[01:11:56] to form a

[01:11:57] real alliance

[01:11:57] and he

[01:11:58] says you

[01:11:58] know if

[01:11:59] we defeat

[01:12:00] Sauron I'll

[01:12:00] take my

[01:12:01] Uruk home

[01:12:02] and and

[01:12:04] let's have

[01:12:04] peace and

[01:12:06] let's heal

[01:12:07] this rift

[01:12:08] between elves

[01:12:09] and Uruk and

[01:12:10] it's such a

[01:12:11] hopeful moment

[01:12:11] where I'm

[01:12:12] like she even

[01:12:13] says like but

[01:12:14] I've killed so

[01:12:14] many of your

[01:12:15] people he's

[01:12:15] like I forgive

[01:12:16] you like let's

[01:12:17] put it behind

[01:12:18] us and you

[01:12:19] know we've

[01:12:19] both done

[01:12:20] horrible things

[01:12:20] both sides

[01:12:21] have done

[01:12:21] things like

[01:12:22] let's just

[01:12:22] let's move

[01:12:23] forward and

[01:12:24] it's a

[01:12:24] beautiful

[01:12:24] vision right

[01:12:26] a world

[01:12:26] where the

[01:12:26] Uruk get

[01:12:27] to just be

[01:12:28] people and

[01:12:28] not be like

[01:12:29] you know

[01:12:30] basically slave

[01:12:31] army and

[01:12:32] and then

[01:12:35] his Uruk

[01:12:37] lieutenant

[01:12:38] Glug like

[01:12:39] fully betrays

[01:12:41] him like

[01:12:42] almost

[01:12:42] Brutus

[01:12:44] versus Caesar

[01:12:45] betrays him

[01:12:46] right lures him

[01:12:47] in stabs him

[01:12:48] and then there's

[01:12:48] that really

[01:12:49] violent like

[01:12:50] multiple

[01:12:50] stabbing scene

[01:12:51] very Caesar

[01:12:52] right and

[01:12:55] and his

[01:12:56] last words

[01:12:57] are something

[01:12:58] like my

[01:12:58] children and

[01:13:00] then and

[01:13:00] then Anatar

[01:13:01] Sauron is

[01:13:02] standing over

[01:13:03] him and

[01:13:03] says they're

[01:13:04] not children

[01:13:04] anymore that

[01:13:06] scene I

[01:13:08] was sad to

[01:13:09] lose Adar and

[01:13:10] I was sad that

[01:13:11] he didn't get

[01:13:11] to see his

[01:13:12] vision and

[01:13:13] of course I

[01:13:13] know that

[01:13:14] Sauron was

[01:13:16] going to win

[01:13:17] in this I

[01:13:18] knew I mean I

[01:13:19] knew he was

[01:13:19] going to get

[01:13:19] the orc army

[01:13:20] because he has

[01:13:20] the orc army

[01:13:21] and lord of

[01:13:21] the rings but

[01:13:23] there was a

[01:13:24] moment where I

[01:13:25] really was like

[01:13:25] oh that that's

[01:13:26] such a beautiful

[01:13:27] vision that we

[01:13:28] could heal the

[01:13:29] the wounds between

[01:13:30] orcs and elves

[01:13:31] and and at I

[01:13:33] really wanted it

[01:13:34] I wanted it so

[01:13:36] much and I'm

[01:13:38] also really sad

[01:13:39] that I'm pretty

[01:13:40] sure that's the

[01:13:41] last we're gonna

[01:13:41] see of Adar

[01:13:42] like that I

[01:13:44] think he's

[01:13:44] gone I don't

[01:13:45] think he's coming

[01:13:46] back I also

[01:13:47] wonder if he

[01:13:47] gets to go to

[01:13:49] I'm sorry I

[01:13:50] forgotten the name

[01:13:50] of the place

[01:13:51] where elves go

[01:13:51] when they die

[01:13:52] oh yeah so

[01:13:53] first they go to

[01:13:54] the halls of

[01:13:55] Mandos where

[01:13:55] they kind of

[01:13:56] get judged and

[01:13:56] then they can be

[01:13:57] reincarnated into

[01:13:59] sometimes their

[01:14:00] same body and

[01:14:01] other times a

[01:14:01] different body

[01:14:03] but I don't

[01:14:04] think they're going

[01:14:05] to visit that

[01:14:05] in this show I

[01:14:06] think that when

[01:14:07] you dig you're

[01:14:08] dead in this show

[01:14:08] so we saw that

[01:14:09] with Madania we

[01:14:10] see that with

[01:14:11] Calibri Moore he

[01:14:12] mentions the kind

[01:14:13] of next stage I

[01:14:14] guess but

[01:14:14] poetic about it so

[01:14:16] that could just be

[01:14:16] heaven yeah I

[01:14:18] think the

[01:14:18] representation in

[01:14:19] this is that it's

[01:14:21] kind of heaven it's

[01:14:22] a little bit like

[01:14:22] that with the

[01:14:23] undying lands as

[01:14:24] well that sense

[01:14:24] that you get with

[01:14:25] Frodo going off at

[01:14:26] the end you know

[01:14:27] they're literally

[01:14:27] physically living in

[01:14:29] another part of the

[01:14:29] world but it's the

[01:14:31] representation is that

[01:14:32] it's heaven I think

[01:14:32] that's where they're

[01:14:33] going with this that

[01:14:34] when you die you

[01:14:34] die you know that

[01:14:35] you've sort of seen

[01:14:36] a few elf deaths

[01:14:36] and it's very sad and

[01:14:38] it wouldn't be as

[01:14:39] sad if you went well

[01:14:39] that's fine they're

[01:14:40] just going to pop

[01:14:40] back up again later

[01:14:42] I don't I agree I

[01:14:44] think that's the end

[01:14:44] for him and very

[01:14:45] poetic that it was

[01:14:47] the same way that

[01:14:48] he and his orcs

[01:14:49] killed Sauron you

[01:14:50] know that we saw in

[01:14:51] the in the first part

[01:14:53] of this season exactly

[01:14:55] the same way being

[01:14:55] surrounded and multiple

[01:14:57] orcs stabbing him

[01:14:59] and yeah he was

[01:15:01] beautiful I loved I

[01:15:02] loved that he was

[01:15:04] facing away and then

[01:15:05] turned around and we

[01:15:06] saw all of those old

[01:15:07] wounds healed and so

[01:15:10] sad that when he took

[01:15:11] the ring off

[01:15:11] they all came back

[01:15:12] that it came back

[01:15:14] yeah and it's

[01:15:16] interesting that he

[01:15:17] says he was known by

[01:15:18] another name because

[01:15:18] there's been lots of

[01:15:19] speculation out there

[01:15:21] on the internet about

[01:15:22] who he could be and

[01:15:23] is he one of the

[01:15:24] oldest elves from

[01:15:25] Valinor or was he

[01:15:26] one of the first elves

[01:15:27] that was created in

[01:15:28] Middle Earth and a

[01:15:30] lot of people saying

[01:15:30] that because you

[01:15:32] notice that he has a

[01:15:33] gauntlet or a glove on

[01:15:34] his left hand and you

[01:15:35] never see his left

[01:15:36] hand a lot of people

[01:15:38] were saying that it

[01:15:38] potentially could be

[01:15:39] one of the earlier

[01:15:41] elves who

[01:15:42] whose hands were

[01:15:43] burnt by the

[01:15:44] Silmarils so I've got

[01:15:45] a bit of background

[01:15:45] about that this is

[01:15:47] from Tolkien Gateway

[01:15:48] so basically after the

[01:15:50] War of Wrath when

[01:15:51] Morgoth was defeated

[01:15:52] the last two

[01:15:53] remaining members of

[01:15:56] Feandor's family

[01:15:56] his last two sons

[01:15:57] Maitros and Maglos

[01:15:59] demanded the Silmarils

[01:16:01] from Eonwe so

[01:16:03] Eonwe is the herald

[01:16:04] of Manwe who's that

[01:16:05] the main boss

[01:16:06] Valar guy but

[01:16:09] Eonwe refused to

[01:16:10] give them to them

[01:16:11] because of the many

[01:16:12] evil deeds so you

[01:16:13] know we've talked a

[01:16:14] little bit before and

[01:16:15] you can go back into

[01:16:15] all the history to find

[01:16:16] out about Feandor and

[01:16:17] his sons and all the

[01:16:18] nasty things they did

[01:16:20] so he basically says

[01:16:21] no you can't have the

[01:16:22] Silmarils but the two

[01:16:24] brothers still wanted

[01:16:25] them so they crept into

[01:16:26] the camp and they

[01:16:27] stole the jewels but

[01:16:29] even though they got

[01:16:30] caught Eonwe actually

[01:16:31] let them go

[01:16:33] each brother took one

[01:16:34] jewel but because of

[01:16:35] their evil deeds

[01:16:36] this caused the jewels

[01:16:38] to burn their hands

[01:16:39] so in the same way

[01:16:40] that the Silmarils

[01:16:41] burnt Morgoth it

[01:16:42] actually burnt these

[01:16:43] elves because they'd

[01:16:43] done evil and so

[01:16:46] each of them had a

[01:16:47] burnt hand from the

[01:16:49] Silmarils

[01:16:51] Maitros in despair

[01:16:52] cast himself into a

[01:16:53] fiery fissure

[01:16:55] Magloa was the last

[01:16:56] surviving son

[01:16:57] threw her Silmaril

[01:16:58] into the sea

[01:16:58] and legend says that

[01:17:00] he still wanders the

[01:17:01] shores of the world

[01:17:02] singing laments for

[01:17:03] his despair and his

[01:17:04] regret possibly later

[01:17:06] casting himself into

[01:17:07] the sea and meeting

[01:17:08] his doom so there's

[01:17:09] all this speculation

[01:17:10] oh my goodness could

[01:17:11] it be one of these

[01:17:12] guys because you know

[01:17:13] he was he was after

[01:17:14] the Silmarils and he

[01:17:15] burned his hand and

[01:17:16] that's why we don't

[01:17:16] see Adar's hand but

[01:17:19] both of those elves

[01:17:19] were known very well

[01:17:20] to Galadriel and

[01:17:21] Elrond so it's clear

[01:17:23] that they're not trying

[01:17:24] to intend it to be

[01:17:25] one of them it's more

[01:17:26] likely that he was

[01:17:27] one of the earliest

[01:17:28] elves created in

[01:17:29] Middle-earth and he

[01:17:30] does talk earlier in

[01:17:31] the show about how he

[01:17:32] first came under

[01:17:33] service to Sauron

[01:17:35] that part sort of

[01:17:36] seems to be a bit

[01:17:37] of a show creation

[01:17:38] I mean it's known

[01:17:39] that Sauron was in

[01:17:40] charge of breeding

[01:17:41] orcs and raising

[01:17:41] armies and so on but

[01:17:43] it's not really anything

[01:17:44] about him having these

[01:17:45] 12 dudes and giving

[01:17:47] them wine on the

[01:17:47] mountaintop kind of

[01:17:48] thing so I think that

[01:17:49] was a bit of a

[01:17:50] representation

[01:17:51] but I like how all of

[01:17:53] this stuff this

[01:17:53] background information

[01:17:54] and the idea that he's

[01:17:56] wearing this glove and

[01:17:57] he had this other name

[01:17:58] but he's not revealing

[01:17:58] it to us

[01:18:00] maybe for rights

[01:18:01] reasons because we

[01:18:02] can't say the names

[01:18:03] of some of the people

[01:18:04] and other stories

[01:18:06] but I think it was a

[01:18:07] nice tribute to that

[01:18:09] sort of first age elf

[01:18:10] history but without

[01:18:11] actually naming anyone

[01:18:12] I liked how they did

[01:18:13] it it was really cool

[01:18:15] and I agree that he

[01:18:16] did seem to have that

[01:18:17] connection with

[01:18:18] Galadriel and they're

[01:18:19] about to make that

[01:18:20] sort of patch to

[01:18:21] fight Sauron

[01:18:22] but I loved that

[01:18:25] I guess progression

[01:18:26] she first calls him

[01:18:27] Orc and then she

[01:18:28] moves to calling him

[01:18:29] Uruk and this is the

[01:18:30] first time she calls

[01:18:31] him Adar so he turns

[01:18:32] around she sees his

[01:18:34] beautiful face and she

[01:18:35] says Adar and I loved

[01:18:36] that that she used his

[01:18:38] chosen name you know

[01:18:39] his earned name which

[01:18:41] was really beautiful

[01:18:41] and then just that

[01:18:43] betrayal you know

[01:18:44] poor old Glug the

[01:18:46] daddy Orc you know

[01:18:47] he just wanted his

[01:18:48] family to be okay and

[01:18:49] somewhere to live and

[01:18:50] he switched allegiances

[01:18:51] and it did not pay off

[01:18:52] you know I felt

[01:18:54] something for him you

[01:18:55] know because we saw

[01:18:56] him from the start that

[01:18:56] he just wanted this home

[01:18:57] for his family and

[01:18:59] that's it you don't

[01:19:00] you don't switch your

[01:19:01] allegiance to someone

[01:19:02] like Sauron who's just

[01:19:03] going to use you to

[01:19:05] whatever yeah yeah

[01:19:06] exactly yeah so sad

[01:19:09] I also liked that Adar

[01:19:11] immediately took the ring

[01:19:13] off and gave it back to

[01:19:15] Galadriel because he

[01:19:18] didn't want more power

[01:19:20] for himself he really

[01:19:21] wanted the alliance with

[01:19:22] her and he wanted to earn

[01:19:25] her trust and so he

[01:19:27] immediately without any

[01:19:28] hesitation gave the ring

[01:19:30] back to her knowing

[01:19:32] probably that it would

[01:19:33] cause him to turn back

[01:19:34] into his you know scarred

[01:19:36] veiny self and I think

[01:19:38] he also was like I've

[01:19:39] earned this face as well

[01:19:41] as this name

[01:19:45] absolutely and I know at

[01:19:47] the start we kind of when

[01:19:49] they switched actors there

[01:19:51] was part of me that really

[01:19:52] missed the the portrayal

[01:19:55] previous of the previous

[01:19:56] actor that kind of got

[01:19:58] across a bit more of the

[01:19:59] tragedy and the sadness

[01:20:00] of this character and at

[01:20:03] first this new actor seemed

[01:20:05] to be a little bit more

[01:20:08] warlike and a little bit

[01:20:09] less caring overall a little

[01:20:11] bit less emotionally scarred

[01:20:13] than the previous portrayal

[01:20:14] but looking at it now and

[01:20:16] seeing what he's done with

[01:20:16] it I almost feel that that's

[01:20:18] intentional that that he

[01:20:19] started out that way and

[01:20:20] then he's moved towards

[01:20:21] this this portrayal at the

[01:20:24] end when he is really

[01:20:26] Adar the elf rather than

[01:20:27] Adar the orc father and

[01:20:29] yeah I'm looking at a

[01:20:30] picture of him now and

[01:20:31] yeah just beautifully

[01:20:32] portrayed and you could

[01:20:34] see the sadness there in

[01:20:35] his eyes and the nobility

[01:20:40] it's so sad that his

[01:20:41] that his Uruks betray him

[01:20:43] it's a horrible way to

[01:20:44] to die yeah yeah he's

[01:20:49] another one of those actors

[01:20:50] where like some of them

[01:20:51] you see interviews and you

[01:20:52] kind of can see that they're

[01:20:54] that character and there's

[01:20:55] some that you see like so

[01:20:57] Charlie Vickers is one like

[01:20:58] you see interviews with him

[01:20:59] and he's just this cheerful

[01:21:00] Aussie bloke and you can't

[01:21:01] believe that he's sour

[01:21:02] yeah and it's it's a it's a

[01:21:05] little bit the same with

[01:21:07] this actor as well like

[01:21:08] sometimes I look at him in

[01:21:09] interviews and and I'm like

[01:21:11] he just Sam Hazeldean he's

[01:21:13] just like chit-chatting away

[01:21:15] and seems like a really nice

[01:21:16] bloke and stuff and he's

[01:21:18] he's Adar it's amazing

[01:21:20] this thousands and

[01:21:21] thousands of years old and

[01:21:22] just does such incredible

[01:21:23] job it's really cool

[01:21:26] R.I.P. Adar

[01:21:29] should we get into the

[01:21:31] what I think is sort of a

[01:21:34] heart the climax of the

[01:21:36] episode

[01:21:38] absolutely and so we're

[01:21:39] talking Galadriel

[01:21:40] so

[01:21:44] so so their scene starts with

[01:21:48] her saying this was your

[01:21:49] design all along and he's

[01:21:50] like you think too much of

[01:21:52] me and we've been debating

[01:21:54] this over the season right

[01:21:55] is he is he a puppet master

[01:21:58] or an opportunist and he sort

[01:22:01] of confirms he's a little bit

[01:22:03] of a puppet master but also a

[01:22:05] lot of an opportunist he's

[01:22:07] like you know the road goes

[01:22:09] ever winding and even I can't

[01:22:11] see all the paths and you know

[01:22:13] things work out the way they

[01:22:14] work out and he just keeps

[01:22:17] making decisions that benefit

[01:22:20] him as he goes along but he

[01:22:21] doesn't get everything he wants

[01:22:25] I thought that was a nice

[01:22:27] confirmation of something that

[01:22:29] we had been wondering for a

[01:22:30] long time and then the I've

[01:22:36] said before I see a lot of

[01:22:37] Buffy the Vampire Slayer in

[01:22:39] Galadriel and the whole scene

[01:22:43] you know this fight scene with

[01:22:45] Annatar the sword fight

[01:22:48] reminded me so much of Buffy

[01:22:50] season two finale when she has

[01:22:53] the big sword fight showdown with

[01:22:55] Angelus and sorry listeners if

[01:23:00] you're not Buffy fans but

[01:23:02] Angelus is a character that had

[01:23:06] been good and turns evil and he

[01:23:08] and Buffy were in love and then

[01:23:10] he becomes her greatest

[01:23:11] adversary and they fight and

[01:23:14] first of all I thought the

[01:23:16] fighting style was similar

[01:23:17] physically similar but also the

[01:23:20] way that he was playing with her

[01:23:23] memories of the good things and

[01:23:26] the bond that she had with

[01:23:27] Halbrand sort of rubbing her

[01:23:29] face in it it was very

[01:23:31] very unjealous and it was very

[01:23:34] painful and yet she was defiant

[01:23:36] and ultimately was able to not

[01:23:42] succumb to his mind control

[01:23:44] literal mind control it made me

[01:23:48] really want to go back and watch

[01:23:50] Buffy season two finale again

[01:23:53] because I was like god there's so

[01:23:55] many similarities there but I don't

[01:23:59] want to get into a whole I have a

[01:24:01] separate podcast about Buffy called

[01:24:03] still slaying if you want to hear

[01:24:04] about it but the the way that he

[01:24:07] was manipulating her emotionally at

[01:24:09] the same time that he was fighting

[01:24:11] her physically I thought was really

[01:24:13] moving also using the crown as a

[01:24:16] weapon was just cool that was a

[01:24:18] cool move every time he trapped her

[01:24:20] sword with it and then he would like

[01:24:22] rotate his wrist I was like oh that is

[01:24:24] so cool it was really cool I loved

[01:24:29] how when he says the road goes ever

[01:24:32] winding that's a very Tolkien style

[01:24:34] line it's a bit reminiscent of the

[01:24:37] of the walking song that Bilbo sings

[01:24:38] the road goes ever on and on I quite

[01:24:40] liked that but yeah to represent that

[01:24:44] that things have happened that he

[01:24:46] didn't expect but he will always twist

[01:24:47] them to his own his own benefit and I

[01:24:50] loved the progression over this scene

[01:24:53] he's not fighting very hard at first

[01:24:55] he's toying with her and he still

[01:24:58] thinks that he can get her on side

[01:24:59] he still he still believes that I

[01:25:01] think you know he uses her brother's

[01:25:04] line to find the light we must first

[01:25:05] touch the darkness so he's trying to

[01:25:08] remind her of the darkness that she

[01:25:09] does have within he's seen that and

[01:25:11] he's trying to remind her and use that

[01:25:13] as a as a kind of weapon to bring her

[01:25:16] in and she says to him we're not

[01:25:19] alike it's just another illusion and he

[01:25:21] says not all of it and then he puts on

[01:25:23] his hell brand skin you know we talked

[01:25:25] about this before that stops her in

[01:25:27] her tracks yeah it really does because

[01:25:30] she remembers that connection that she

[01:25:31] felt to him and and that she did have

[01:25:34] with him earlier and he's got these big

[01:25:36] sad puppy dog eyes looking at her and

[01:25:38] you know I don't think for a second

[01:25:41] that she falls for it but she she's

[01:25:43] conflicted for a little bit within

[01:25:45] herself of remembering the feelings that

[01:25:47] she'd had it was another thing that

[01:25:49] really reminded me of angel and Buffy

[01:25:51] because he has said several times like

[01:25:55] the way I felt fighting by your side if

[01:25:57] I could just I thought if I could just

[01:25:59] hold on to that feeling and he's he's

[01:26:02] trying to draft off her goodness and

[01:26:04] light for his own redemption right he

[01:26:07] thinks she's so good if I ally with her

[01:26:10] if I make her my queen then I won't be

[01:26:12] that bad and I can be redeemed but it's

[01:26:15] like a vampire he wants to suck the

[01:26:17] goodness out of her and use it for his

[01:26:19] own ends he's not selfless he's not

[01:26:22] trying to actually redeem himself he's

[01:26:24] just feeling sorry for himself and he's

[01:26:26] grasping at straws and he thinks he can

[01:26:29] like feed off of her light and goodness

[01:26:31] it's it's I mean it's evil big surprise

[01:26:36] Sauron is evil it it is and then he he

[01:26:40] tries another trick putting on the

[01:26:42] Galadriel skin so he he appears as

[01:26:45] Galadriel and she has to fight herself

[01:26:46] and I love that it was so symbolic you

[01:26:48] know she's battled her own conflicting

[01:26:50] desires and throughout so it was really

[01:26:52] cool that she had to yeah so she had to

[01:26:54] fight herself but I also loved the

[01:26:57] styling of that it's quite hard to see

[01:26:58] when they're moving fast but the the

[01:27:00] Sauron Galadriel was very clean and shiny

[01:27:03] and kind of looked all perfect while the

[01:27:07] the real Galadriel had already started to

[01:27:09] become a little bit scarred and dirty and

[01:27:10] grubby and her hair was messier and I

[01:27:13] loved that they had the difference between

[01:27:14] those two it was beautifully done wonderful

[01:27:16] attention and then he becomes then he

[01:27:18] becomes Calabrimbor and he says are they

[01:27:21] not the seeds you planted and again that's

[01:27:23] getting into her mind you started this this

[01:27:25] was your fault there was things that you

[01:27:27] did in the beginning to make this come

[01:27:29] about and to play on that guilt with her

[01:27:31] as well I was sure he was going to become

[01:27:34] Finrod as well her brother I was certain he

[01:27:36] was going to pull that out I'm glad he

[01:27:38] didn't he brought up the line which was

[01:27:39] cool and he says to her I see you I know

[01:27:43] your mind the door is still open and he

[01:27:45] has this evil little smile like it's sort

[01:27:49] of a cross between evil and innocent there's

[01:27:51] part of him that's like I think I think

[01:27:53] she I can still talk when they're open I

[01:27:55] think she likes me yeah yeah the door's

[01:27:58] still open I'm still offering everything

[01:28:00] and he looks hopeful even and then oh I

[01:28:05] watched this maybe five or eight times

[01:28:07] when she says the door is shut and kicks

[01:28:10] him in the face that's pretty satisfying

[01:28:13] she kicks him in the face so hard that it

[01:28:16] slams him like three or four meters back

[01:28:18] into this big boulder and I just thought it

[01:28:20] was so great and that's when he loses it

[01:28:23] so again it's a really similar thing to

[01:28:25] with Calabrimbor when he knows that that

[01:28:28] door is shut and he gets into a rage and

[01:28:32] he that just gets really intense and I

[01:28:34] think it was a fairly matched fight you

[01:28:37] know like I could tell that she wasn't

[01:28:39] going to win she she's not going to win

[01:28:41] she is one of the oldest and strongest and

[01:28:43] most battle-hardened elves in Middle

[01:28:45] Earth and even though he is Maya he is

[01:28:48] still in an earthly form so his body we've

[01:28:51] seen his body can still be overcome but so

[01:28:54] I think they're quite evenly matched and

[01:28:56] she has a ring which helps yeah but but he he

[01:29:01] was she was never gonna and if everything

[01:29:03] else you know was the same and she didn't

[01:29:07] jump off the cliff she would have lost

[01:29:08] that fight and then she yeah she cuts him

[01:29:12] and I just could not help but think of

[01:29:15] dodgeball when he goes nobody makes me

[01:29:17] bleed my own blood

[01:29:21] how dare you how dare you cut me

[01:29:25] I cannot stop anytime someone cuts

[01:29:27] anyone in any show I can't stop thinking

[01:29:29] of that oh I've been still I love him

[01:29:31] and that's when he stabs her and he says

[01:29:38] that incredible line and I think you you've

[01:29:40] got a clip of it the the line that he

[01:29:42] says to her after he stabs her with the

[01:29:44] with the crown

[01:29:46] I would have placed the crown upon your

[01:29:49] head I would never have rested until

[01:29:54] all middle earth being brought to its

[01:29:55] knees to worship the light of its queen

[01:30:23] even in wanting to make her a queen he

[01:30:26] doesn't understand that Galadriel doesn't

[01:30:29] want to be worshipped that's not her goal

[01:30:33] right he's like I would have made you a

[01:30:34] queen and I would have made everyone

[01:30:36] bow down to your light like that's not

[01:30:38] what light is for that's not the point of

[01:30:41] being good and light is to make people

[01:30:43] bow down to you and he just so

[01:30:46] fundamentally misunderstands good yeah I

[01:30:51] think he misunderstands good but I think

[01:30:53] he does see something in Galadriel that

[01:30:55] is there and is there from the writings

[01:30:57] that she she did actually want power she

[01:30:59] wanted some she wanted a people to rule

[01:31:01] over in the land of her own so that was a

[01:31:04] motivating factor for her from the

[01:31:05] beginning but it's not because she wants

[01:31:08] to dominate necessarily because I think

[01:31:11] she is of course inherently good but he

[01:31:14] does miss the point with her that he's

[01:31:15] just like but everyone's gonna worship us

[01:31:17] and think that we're great yeah that's not

[01:31:19] what she wants and and you can see that

[01:31:22] later she does you know eventually get her

[01:31:24] her own realm but it's secret yeah and

[01:31:27] she's more of a leader not a not a ruler

[01:31:31] it's different yeah definitely yeah and

[01:31:35] then yeah the way he stabs her with that

[01:31:37] crown the way he used it in the in the

[01:31:39] fight like you say twisting the sword

[01:31:42] around and then the way he stabs her with

[01:31:43] it it was brutal and then she falls down

[01:31:46] there and he takes the nine and and she

[01:31:50] says to him you wish to heal Middle

[01:31:52] Earth heal yourself and he again he

[01:31:55] thinks that she's gonna give him the

[01:31:57] ring she's holding it he gets that

[01:31:59] little smirky smile oh yeah it's cool

[01:32:01] yeah you're gonna give it over me and

[01:32:03] everything's gonna be cool and I loved

[01:32:05] how she goes to tip the ring and it was

[01:32:08] sort of reluctant to leave her hand just

[01:32:10] like the one ring with Bilbo when he

[01:32:12] was like a little sticky or something

[01:32:13] sticks yeah I love that and and then

[01:32:17] and then she falls and I loved that it

[01:32:20] was really the only way to get away he

[01:32:21] was he was convenient cliff yeah and then

[01:32:25] Glug comes up and is like you know what

[01:32:28] are your orders Dark Lord and and Sauron

[01:32:30] just stabs him and I was like was he

[01:32:35] always planning to kill Glug because you

[01:32:36] can never trust a traitor or was he just

[01:32:39] so upset at losing Galadriel in that

[01:32:42] moment that he was just lashing out

[01:32:43] maybe both I don't know but a both yeah he

[01:32:48] means nothing to him yeah it's not like

[01:32:50] oh it's like it's like you know when

[01:32:53] people are angry and they punch a wall or

[01:32:55] break a plate he just was like yeah it's

[01:32:59] it's a bit like my Dania yeah you know

[01:33:01] Glug had served his purpose don't need

[01:33:03] him anymore off you go that was really it

[01:33:06] and his look on his face when he turns

[01:33:08] around you know I'm sure he knows that

[01:33:10] she survived this fall and yeah but he's

[01:33:13] kind of now right I have to get on with

[01:33:15] the next with the next job which is

[01:33:17] gathering my orcs and then you know

[01:33:18] heading off into into Mordor and

[01:33:20] regrouping I guess because he also hears

[01:33:23] the the horns of the dwarves and so he

[01:33:26] knows that that the dwarves have come to

[01:33:28] assist at the at the last minute yeah and

[01:33:30] he's he has accomplished everything he

[01:33:33] wanted to accomplish he destroyed Aragion

[01:33:37] he got the nine rings and he has an orc

[01:33:40] army he's he's ready to move to the next

[01:33:43] step you know regrouping in Mordor and

[01:33:45] also distributing the nine rings yeah he's

[01:33:49] um he's definitely leveled up that's for

[01:33:51] sure getting closer and closer to the

[01:33:54] Sauron that we know from from the Lord of

[01:33:56] the Rings so it's it's perfect in this

[01:33:58] sort of um 40 percent of the way through

[01:34:01] this this story where we've got to with

[01:34:03] him and I'm impressed how how well

[01:34:05] they've done that over the season it's

[01:34:06] been amazing to go from our brand to

[01:34:08] this I hadn't done that math 40 percent

[01:34:10] we are two out of five seasons that's

[01:34:13] 40 percent

[01:34:15] yep that's it and I was just so excited

[01:34:19] to see the dwarves show up yeah I was

[01:34:21] you know it's in the story that they show

[01:34:23] up but you know Aragion still falls and I

[01:34:26] think they portrayed this nicely so they

[01:34:28] show up and this is a way for our leaders

[01:34:30] and some of the population to get away

[01:34:33] but also that the city is destroyed and I

[01:34:36] love when Gil-Galad and Elrond have

[01:34:39] been taken by the orcs and they're being

[01:34:40] marched through the city I love how Gil-Galad

[01:34:43] turned the ring around so you couldn't

[01:34:45] see the stone did you notice that it was

[01:34:46] quite exciting it it turns it around and

[01:34:48] hide it which was really cool and I just

[01:34:51] love Elrond he took like at least five of

[01:34:53] those orcs out yeah just in that

[01:34:55] worst little struggle I love when he's

[01:34:57] like not the books no not the books kill

[01:35:00] us but not the books it was so cute I was

[01:35:03] like orcs don't care about books no take

[01:35:06] me not the scrolls and you know he's a

[01:35:08] scholar so he's visibly devastated that

[01:35:10] they're destroying this this this library

[01:35:12] and it is really really sad and then of

[01:35:15] course we see our beautiful Aron dear he

[01:35:19] is alive we knew he was alive again I've

[01:35:23] seen a little bit on the internet people

[01:35:25] whining about we didn't see the scene of

[01:35:26] him being healed and why wasn't he dead and

[01:35:29] look he he was still moving when Adar

[01:35:31] left him in the last episode he was still

[01:35:34] crawling and yes he had had been stabbed

[01:35:36] but that might have killed a human but

[01:35:39] elves can survive many wounds and he

[01:35:41] actually said himself previously we can

[01:35:44] survive many wounds that would kill a

[01:35:46] mortal and I'm totally fine with it I

[01:35:49] don't think it felt too much like a yada

[01:35:50] yada over it I was just like what's

[01:35:53] not on dear he's fine he shows up very

[01:35:55] happy to see him there is a small

[01:35:57] contingent on the internet that thinks

[01:35:59] that's not Aron dear that's that's a

[01:36:01] Sauron pretending to be Aron dear I'm

[01:36:05] like I mean some people just want too much

[01:36:09] complication it's it's yeah I think that's

[01:36:13] unlikely I have a question so yeah Tolkien

[01:36:17] didn't believe that there were creatures

[01:36:21] of pure evil is that is that right is

[01:36:25] is there yeah a version of the story

[01:36:27] where Sauron is redeemable and he's he's

[01:36:32] definitely known to be wanting to redeem

[01:36:34] himself early on so he does want to heal

[01:36:36] Middle-earth the way that he goes about it

[01:36:38] is not ideal but he does he does actually

[01:36:41] want to and there's a point where earlier

[01:36:43] in the story where after Morgoth is

[01:36:46] defeated where the Valar say okay actually

[01:36:49] you know you can redeem yourself all you

[01:36:52] have to do is come back to Valinor and

[01:36:54] behave and be good and he refuses he just

[01:36:57] says nah actually I think I'll just stay

[01:36:59] here and be the Dark Lord so he does have

[01:37:01] there is an actual point where he has a

[01:37:03] choice and he's offered redemption he's

[01:37:04] offered forgiveness and he just doesn't

[01:37:07] like the terms so he makes a very clear

[01:37:11] choice and then I think they've kind of

[01:37:13] I guess represented that in a subtle way

[01:37:16] in this series to show that when he is

[01:37:19] Halbrand maybe he does actually want to

[01:37:22] redeem himself and do and do good but then

[01:37:25] they've moved it into the I want to save

[01:37:27] Middle-earth but I'm going to do it in a

[01:37:30] really evil way so I think it's really true

[01:37:32] to his character for sure and you know some

[01:37:35] people who only see this the story on the

[01:37:37] surface do say that Tolkien's characters are

[01:37:41] really black and white they're they're either

[01:37:43] good or they're bad and they're not everyone's

[01:37:45] just about everyone's quite a grey character

[01:37:47] doing this maybe apart from Sam he's pure

[01:37:50] but you know like a lot of them have

[01:37:52] complexities and I really like that about

[01:37:54] it so I think it's great and we see we see

[01:37:58] Galadriel she's fallen down and then

[01:38:00] obviously you know Alrond and Gil-Galad and

[01:38:04] Arondia get away with the rest of the of the

[01:38:07] elves and they find Galadriel lying there in

[01:38:10] the forest and oh I loved Gil-Galad in this

[01:38:14] scene I just thought he was awesome you know

[01:38:15] I've had my moments where he's just all

[01:38:18] snobby and kingly and blah blah but I

[01:38:20] just thought he was great you know I don't

[01:38:22] know what it is about him and Elrond but

[01:38:24] when they're grubby they are fine yeah I

[01:38:28] mean there was a lot of gorgeousness

[01:38:30] happening in those final scenes yeah the

[01:38:32] three of them the three of those you'd

[01:38:34] those guys and all grubby in that forest

[01:38:36] yeah totally I loved how Gil-Galad was

[01:38:39] speaking elvish when he's trying to heal

[01:38:41] her and he calls her Alatariel which is

[01:38:43] another of her names it's her Tuliri name

[01:38:46] and that was really cool and and then

[01:38:48] Elrond puts on the ring so you know the

[01:38:51] the power of Gil-Galad's ring is not

[01:38:53] enough we know that she's been stabbed by

[01:38:55] this this crown and he Elrond has this

[01:39:00] moment where he realizes that he can help

[01:39:02] and that maybe the rings are good for a

[01:39:04] purpose he puts on the ring and I loved

[01:39:07] how he just looks straight down the camera

[01:39:10] like it's a really intense look that he's

[01:39:12] putting this on and and then this helps to

[01:39:15] heal her and so I really like the scene I

[01:39:19] think the her fighting Sauron hand-to-hand is

[01:39:22] a show creation you don't really get that in

[01:39:24] the in the lore and in this this part of

[01:39:27] story but I love that they used the symbol of

[01:39:33] being stabbed with Morgoth's crown so it's the

[01:39:35] evil that she had been fighting for thousands

[01:39:37] of years represented again in this reforged

[01:39:40] crown that's now Sauron's and it's also

[01:39:43] similar to the Morgul blade so we've seen

[01:39:45] this in Lord of the Rings before where the

[01:39:46] witch king stabs Frodo and there's a darkness

[01:39:49] to that weapon that stays with you so in

[01:39:53] Frodo's case part of the actual sword itself

[01:39:55] remained in the wound and it began to lead

[01:39:57] him into this wraith world and then later

[01:39:59] on he was healed by Alond and Rivendell

[01:40:02] and for Frodo he he felt that pain and that

[01:40:05] despair on every anniversary of the of the

[01:40:08] event but he was finally free of it when he

[01:40:11] crossed the sea to Valinor and I really

[01:40:13] think that this visual representation of

[01:40:17] Galadriel being stabbed by the crown is a

[01:40:19] really good explanation of later why the

[01:40:22] darkness kind of remains in her to an

[01:40:24] extent and she's always bound to Sauron in

[01:40:26] that way and we see this later in the books

[01:40:29] and we see it in the movies where you know

[01:40:31] she's on by the mirror with Frodo and she

[01:40:34] says you should have a dark queen and you can

[01:40:36] sort of see that torment and that that

[01:40:39] conflict within her and the darkness within

[01:40:41] her I love how they've kind of you know

[01:40:44] retrofit this part to that I just think it

[01:40:47] fits so nicely with the theme of the story

[01:40:49] and with her character I thought the whole like

[01:40:52] love to find the light you must first touch the

[01:40:54] darkness there's no such thing as pure light

[01:40:57] or pure dark at least not in Tolkien's universe

[01:41:01] and I think that's true of our universe as

[01:41:05] well there are there are people who have done

[01:41:08] just unspeakably evil things but I don't

[01:41:13] believe that there are humans who have no good

[01:41:15] in them or humans that don't have you know

[01:41:21] temptations or darkness in them either I just

[01:41:23] I don't believe in that

[01:41:25] I agree yep yeah so that was that sort of

[01:41:31] scene where I guess we'll come back we'll maybe

[01:41:33] come back to to where they go next I did want

[01:41:37] to just sort of wrap up the little main ending

[01:41:40] part that we see in Rune again I was a bit

[01:41:45] distracted to go back there after all this

[01:41:48] I know I was like they should have just wrapped

[01:41:49] all that stuff up at the midpoint of the episode

[01:41:52] and been done with Rune yeah I kind of went oh

[01:41:56] we're back here again wait I have to just reset my

[01:41:58] brain to being there but I did I did like the way

[01:42:02] they did it in the end so I did I did enjoy the

[01:42:05] the voiceover that Poppy did it was a way to wrap

[01:42:08] it up and it was very reminiscent of of Sam's

[01:42:13] speech in the two towers and I don't know if

[01:42:16] you remember but there's a part in Ozgillia

[01:42:18] where they're basically you know this is all

[01:42:21] very very despairing and it's a bit it's a

[01:42:24] bit Empire Strikes Back like in terms of end of

[01:42:27] the second movie things have all gone to crap

[01:42:29] let's try and kind of find the light and I

[01:42:33] think it's really cool because I think you

[01:42:34] know Poppy and Sam are two similar characters

[01:42:38] yeah they're the friendly loyal sidekick of the

[01:42:41] main Hobbit type thing but I did weave everything

[01:42:43] together nicely it is very like Sam's speech in the

[01:42:47] two towers and I've got Sam's speech here he says

[01:42:50] it's like in the great stories Mr Frodo the ones

[01:42:53] that really mattered full of darkness and danger

[01:42:55] they were and sometimes you didn't want to know the

[01:42:57] end because how could the end be happy how could the

[01:43:00] world go back to the way it was when so much bad

[01:43:02] had happened but in the end it's only a passing

[01:43:04] thing this shadow even darkness must pass a new day

[01:43:07] will come and when the sun shines it will shine out the

[01:43:10] clearer those were the stories that stayed with you that meant

[01:43:13] something even if you were too small to understand why but I

[01:43:16] think Mr Frodo I do understand I know now folk in those stories had lots of

[01:43:20] chances of turning back only they didn't because they were holding on to

[01:43:23] something that there's some good in this world Mr Frodo and it's worth

[01:43:27] fighting for and I loved that her speech was reminiscent of that partly

[01:43:31] because of the way the characters are quite similar but also because it kind

[01:43:35] of just tied everything up nicely so she said she says some things can't be

[01:43:40] fixed some things lost are lost forever no matter how hard we fight how much it

[01:43:45] hurts or how much our hearts yearn to put them back together because this world

[01:43:49] is so much bigger than any of us and sometimes the winds blowing against us

[01:43:53] are just too strong at those times we've just got to accept it what's broke is

[01:43:57] broke and won't fix and all anybody can try and do is to build something new

[01:44:03] and I thought that was really lovely it was a nice reflection on grief and on what

[01:44:09] it's like to lose someone and and what to do next that's always with you but you

[01:44:13] have to move on and do the next thing and it tied in really nicely as a voiceover

[01:44:18] for the little scenes that we see to tie up this whole season so it flicks

[01:44:24] between different scenes and we see durin's funeral scene we see the elves being led by

[01:44:30] alron leaving a region we see a seildur on the ship back to numinoa and estrid standing

[01:44:35] there with hagen we see miriel in chains before the court of farazon we see elendil

[01:44:41] leaving the city just like he did in this vision and we see sauron standing there with

[01:44:45] faenor's hammer and it was a really cool device so while I was distracted when we went

[01:44:51] back to rune I loved what they did with it and it did tie everything nicely together at

[01:44:55] the end and sort of show us where we're leaving each thread which was cool and then there's

[01:45:00] the scene at the very end where galadriel wakes up and she's healed and they're talking about

[01:45:06] what they're going to do next and erondir asks her what she thinks they should do

[01:45:12] i would remember the council of our dear friend philip in greatest of elven smiths and the mind

[01:45:29] are people which is not strength to overcomes darkness but light and the sun yet shine the

[01:45:59] music is really helping but that i find to be very moving and i realized it's a paraphrase of a martin

[01:46:08] luther king jr sermon it's one of his most famous sermons uh entitled loving your enemies and he

[01:46:16] preached returning hate for hate multiplies hate adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of

[01:46:23] stars darkness cannot drive out darkness only light can do that hate cannot drive out hate only love

[01:46:31] can do that and it's words i try to live by in my life you know there are dark things in our world

[01:46:40] like there are in tolkien's world and we fight against them but i also try to fight against

[01:46:48] darkness by spreading love i try to be giving and loving even to people i don't know and it's why i

[01:46:57] you know volunteer for a local homeless shelter and i take food to a local um community fridge where

[01:47:06] people could just take food if they want food and and i think that violence isn't the answer to

[01:47:17] problems and it should only be used to stop other violence and and never to to try to solve

[01:47:25] anything it's just how i believe and i don't know this is a little i'm a little schmaltzy but

[01:47:30] you know try to be the light in the world i would ask our listeners that's beautiful i i love that

[01:47:38] i exactly and i and i love how you've you've linked it back to that to that sermon and um you know it's a

[01:47:45] it's a an interesting way to look at the world and i think it's the right way to look at the world

[01:47:50] and um i was having a chat with someone the other day just about how how you help to teach your kids

[01:47:57] that and i one of the things that i try and teach my kids is to look for the good in everyone and this

[01:48:03] is not a way to be sucked in by staff or be taken advantage of always look for the good in someone

[01:48:08] but also be cautious and be wary and you know but to see first that there's a good in each person

[01:48:15] in each situation is a good way to look at the world in the same way that you can protect yourself

[01:48:20] in other ways but also um to to keep that in mind and the world is a better place if everyone does

[01:48:26] that so agreed i i love that they brought this in and i think it's a big development for galadriel too

[01:48:36] from when we see her in the very start of the first season it's only about finding saron and defeating

[01:48:42] him it's only about looking for the darkness she's a pure soldier and getting on yeah and this now

[01:48:49] especially when you have um galad is sort of saying what what are we going to what are we going to do

[01:48:56] here we've got this choice basically and it's the sword or the shield are we going to come out and attack

[01:49:01] fully or are we going to regroup and use the shield and i think that they've chosen the shield

[01:49:07] obviously they're going to just kind of regroup at this point um but they're going to consolidate

[01:49:14] what they have which is the goodness and the lightness and and and go from there and i thought

[01:49:20] it was beautifully done and rivendell this is rivendell so they they mentioned it um in the

[01:49:26] beginning they said that the the the escaping to the north a valley to the north of here and so

[01:49:32] they've placed that nicely geographically that we know that that's rivendell

[01:49:36] and they've made it look similar enough to what we've seen before in the artwork um of alan lee and

[01:49:42] john howe and obviously translating into the what we see on screen and the lord of the rings that this

[01:49:47] looks like rivendell with these beautiful trees and these rocks and this hidden kind of valley which

[01:49:51] is really cool i've always wanted to go to rivendell i i um it's my favorite fictional location

[01:49:59] that's beautiful isn't it when i used to do the lord of the rings tours everyone was like oh oh my god

[01:50:03] do we get to see rivendell and unfortunately um rivendell was almost entirely in the studio

[01:50:09] um and with the background digital there was a few parts that they did that were kind of walking

[01:50:16] through this one little kind of you know just a local kind of um city park that they used to kind

[01:50:23] of show some of the the little walking to and fro on the grass bits but there's not really a location

[01:50:29] that you can visit so much um there's a there's a spot that they did use in wellington and i think

[01:50:33] they've actually they've had more license recently to go back and actually build some things that look

[01:50:40] like the sets so there's a spot that you can go to um in wellington that that kind of is rivendell

[01:50:45] but it's not the same as some of the other locations that are so obvious of what it is but yeah

[01:50:50] beautiful i uh i just um recently started rereading the fellowship of the ring and i got to the part

[01:50:58] where they're in rivendell and the way that bilbo describes rivendell is it's the perfect place if you

[01:51:05] want to sing or feast or read or talk or just sit and think i think i'm paraphrasing that is not

[01:51:14] exactly how he said it but to me i was like that's where i want to go i want to go to a place like that

[01:51:19] where where you can do all those things or any of those things or nothing and and it's you know

[01:51:25] there's all this music all the time and people are constantly creating art it's it sounds like

[01:51:32] heaven to me and then it's also this place where people go when they have questions because they

[01:51:38] seek the wisdom of elrond and there's you know they're just starting i'm at the part of the book

[01:51:42] where they're just starting the council of elrond and i'm like yeah like he now that i've seen this

[01:51:50] show and i understand about what they lost at a reggie on i understand better what he created at

[01:51:56] rivendell because he wanted a place of peace and protection and healing but also education and art

[01:52:03] and creation and for him those things are intrinsically related you can't have yes protection without a

[01:52:11] much art yeah definitely yeah i love that and it's cool when you sort of see you know that there's

[01:52:18] obviously all of the rest of the elves there and then you've got galadriel and arondir and gilgalad but

[01:52:22] seeing elrond himself in rivendell was really cool to see that kind of origin story i love that i love

[01:52:28] that arondir is like he's like really moved up in the world from being like just some soldier to being

[01:52:36] at the top of that cliff with like three of the most powerful elves that exist and he's like he's right up

[01:52:43] there with him i'm i'm psyched great and when he shows back up and and and galadriel says oh dear and

[01:52:50] he comes over and the fact that he was he felt close enough to her to actually take her hands

[01:52:56] you know when she's this this noble elf was really cool i loved that that connection and it gives me hope

[01:53:03] that we're going to see our friend ismael um continue in the next few seasons because i think they've put

[01:53:09] him into this place where he's this character that's going to mean a lot and he's not canon so

[01:53:13] they can do what i like with him and i hope that what they like is to keep him around because we love

[01:53:17] him oh ismael if we ever get to talk to you we'll tell you how much we love you

[01:53:23] we will all right there's one last little bit i think um gandalf he's he gets his staff

[01:53:33] he gets his name and he goes back to visit our friend tom the very very end and um i love how he

[01:53:42] says i was meant to choose friendship over power i was meant to find this meaning his staff and it's

[01:53:49] really similar to gandalf and the lord of the rings telling frodo that he was meant to have the ring and

[01:53:54] it was meant to come to him so there's some semblance of kind of fate there or destiny um and

[01:54:00] we all knew it was a test of course you have to choose a friendship and in doing so then you will

[01:54:05] find your destiny all of that stuff very cute little scene loved how they they ended with them

[01:54:10] singing it was beautifully done it was really cool and that that song is actually um on the

[01:54:15] soundtrack as well and then the other thing that i loved in that scene was tom's hedgehog teapot

[01:54:20] how cool was the internet is on fire about that teapot people are like i don't want to buy the

[01:54:27] clothes i want this teapot like they need to get that into manufacturing right away i mean it's amazon

[01:54:34] they're missing an opportunity there is so much merch you could do from this show and i just haven't

[01:54:38] really seen any but i would get that teapot i've seen a lot of clothes that sort of mimic the feel

[01:54:45] of the elven clothes i've seen some dresses and i've seen a lot of hoodies that have you know like

[01:54:51] symbols from various characters on them and of course i have a great eye of salron t-shirt that

[01:54:58] i wear and i think is hilarious because it's like i'm rooting for the devil i think that teapot will

[01:55:03] sell out in like minutes if they make it it's incredible yeah i saw um i saw on facebook someone

[01:55:09] had made a cosplay of arondias um breastplate and shoulder plates um all hand carved look exactly so

[01:55:18] beautiful i saw that too i was like blown away by the artistry and i was like hand carved that whole

[01:55:23] face and everything like amazing so beautiful and then someone said why does it have a belly button

[01:55:30] it does have a belly button and i didn't really notice that i feel like i feel like the one that

[01:55:36] he's wearing um you can sort of see abs on it but the belly button is not very obvious when you see

[01:55:42] i hadn't noticed it before oh pretty funny because it's like a tree person so although i don't think

[01:55:49] it's an ant the the armor looks like a tree person to me so i guess i thought that the marks weren't

[01:55:58] abs but they were like you know like the rings of a tree or a knot or something like that right

[01:56:03] yeah it's beautifully done yeah and i thought it was really cool how he talks about his name so

[01:56:11] you've got the you've got the uh stores saying thanks grand elf thanks grand elf and then it

[01:56:17] becomes gandalf and um i quite like that so the thing about the the wizards as i said before they

[01:56:27] weren't supposed to go around saying who they were and what they were there for and very few of the

[01:56:31] inhabitants of middle earth knew who they really were their star didn't share that information

[01:56:36] most of them believed that they were elves or wise men and the name gandalf represents that

[01:56:42] interpretation so it means wand elf because the men that gave him that nickname believed that he was

[01:56:47] an elf so that actually does fit a lot of people saying oh it's too cutesy grand elf becoming gandalf

[01:56:52] it's like but um i actually quite like it i'm okay with it and the other reason i like it is a

[01:56:57] little bit personal um when i was doing the lord of the rings tours um my dad was also a tour guide

[01:57:03] um at one point for them and we had to have passenger licenses so we could drive people around

[01:57:09] and when you get a passenger license you have to have your registration card to display um like you

[01:57:15] know like a taxi driver an uber driver has their little card with their name on it and their picture

[01:57:20] and um my dad's um passenger driver name was grand elf because he used to like to dress up as

[01:57:28] gandalf and he looked exactly the same as him and um and he's a granddad and so the grandkids called

[01:57:34] him grand elf and so i really liked that they used the name grand elf in this it was a really cool

[01:57:39] connection for me so that is really cute i think that's just about it i think we've covered it

[01:57:48] i had a couple of little wee tiny notes apart from the hedgehog teapot that was one of them

[01:57:54] sauron's little bow and his hairdo i've seen heaps of memes and videos about this as well you know he's

[01:57:59] got this incredible costume and he's got this beautiful elven hair and the back of his hairdo is

[01:58:05] like this little bow yeah tied out of his hair and i saw this little video and it was like sauron

[01:58:12] before he starts his day of torture and domination and it's like him doing his hair and putting a little

[01:58:17] tie in it and stuff was super cute and then our friend greg was commenting on this and saying hey

[01:58:21] sorry to disappoint you but he doesn't have to actually do his hair he just snaps his fingers and

[01:58:25] he he looks how he wants but and then somebody else was like actually it's a wig if you're gonna go

[01:58:32] there like let's go all the way there he's an actor and he's wearing a wig but um someone puts it on

[01:58:39] floor and while he's having his coffee in the morning and that the tutorial somebody had a good

[01:58:44] tutorial on how to do the bow and it didn't look that difficult now i have curly hair so i'd have to

[01:58:50] first straighten my hair to do it but i'm a little tempted to try it yeah sounds good we'll start this

[01:58:57] new trend and the only other little note i had was um there was a scene with um nori and gandalf

[01:59:06] and she says if i had my druthers and i don't know if everyone's would be familiar with that phrase um

[01:59:13] apparently it's actually a united states phrase it's not that common elsewhere um and it evolved from a

[01:59:20] pronunciation of i'd rather so your druthers are the things you'd rather do so i'd rather

[01:59:26] means you're druthers um is that something that you hear a lot penny or that you're familiar with my

[01:59:31] father used to use that phrase that word a lot but i don't hear it in regular

[01:59:40] conversation that much and i've used it from time to time and had people say what and then i say

[01:59:46] oh it's not i'd rather or druthers and they and they sort of look at me like i'm insane and then

[01:59:52] usually when i say things that are not common usage in the u.s somebody will be like oh you lived in

[01:59:59] europe and then they just assume that it's something from my european time but um yeah uh i yeah my dad

[02:00:07] said it all the time i think it's old-fashioned it's cool i think so i love antiquated language like

[02:00:14] that when it pops up i think it's really cool i think it's a shame when things get lost brilliant

[02:00:19] so much to get into and there is so much more to come so please stay with us and we just have one

[02:00:57] piece of news this week because uh we have a mountain of feedback to get through so would you like to

[02:01:02] start us off with our news of sure it's called the rings of power finale charlie vickers on

[02:01:08] salron's rampage from hollywood reporter.com and it's a q a format congratulations first of all on

[02:01:15] a wicked season why don't we start by you telling me your initial reaction when you read the script

[02:01:20] for this season finale the thing i was really excited excited by was the mind prism thing that's

[02:01:28] what the showrunners call it and kelle brimboer trying to fight against it but in the finale that

[02:01:33] particular scene where salron kills kelle brimboer i was really excited to do that because it's an

[02:01:39] iconic tolkien image kelle brimboer's body being full of arrows and then hoisted high on a spear

[02:01:44] both edwards and i when we read it we were just like this is going to be really cool i i love that

[02:01:51] these two are like such buddies in real life all right um we see that salron is emotional in that

[02:01:58] scene killing kelle brimboer is not easy for him what does that tell us about his character

[02:02:03] it's funny it's one of those things where i did the scene and i wasn't expecting to get emotional

[02:02:08] it's not like it was a planned thing it just happened and then when you talk about it you

[02:02:13] have to go back and try and unpack why and sometimes there is no explanation for these things

[02:02:18] but in thinking about why he might have been feeling like that there's a lot of different

[02:02:23] things i think you do see him kill people in this show and he often kills them quite matter of

[02:02:28] factly let's say it's different with kelle brimboer because he has been a partner in crime

[02:02:33] and someone sauron really respects and someone he could have used there's also this huge anger in

[02:02:40] himself in this moment that he's been defeated because kelle brimboer has hidden these rings

[02:02:45] sauron needs the rings yet kelle brimboer wants to die before he tells sauron where the rings are

[02:02:50] and sauron says there are ways of keeping you alive something like that so he clearly wants to

[02:02:56] torture him until he finds out but it's just like the way kelle brimboer tells him that he's now a

[02:03:01] slave to these creations i think it probably hits home for sauron and he loses control and kills him

[02:03:07] and i think that makes him really angry and upset because it's so un sauron to be out of control

[02:03:13] it is more interesting to watch than him just dispatching everyone and the interviewer goes on we

[02:03:22] finally see this battle with galadriel which had been brewing for a while first things first is sauron

[02:03:27] in love with galadriel he talks about making her his queen and charlie responds i don't think he's

[02:03:33] in love with her in the human sense of the word i bring my humanity to the role that everyone watches

[02:03:37] it through this prism of humanity so you see characters with chemistry and you see there's a

[02:03:41] romantic thing there and that's how we watch things because it's part of our lives i think that's great

[02:03:46] for people to feel this way about the show or about different relationships but i think for sauron and

[02:03:51] romantic love it isn't something he goes around thinking where's my girlfriend at

[02:03:55] because he's an angel and i think that's probably the same for galadriel i don't see it as romantic

[02:03:59] love i see it as this kind of connection that's on another level to anyone else that he's walked

[02:04:03] past on the street he sees this high elf and he's like oh she operates on a similar plane to me where

[02:04:08] i can connect with her on things that i couldn't connect with joe blogs in the corner and the

[02:04:12] blacksmith but i think it's fun if people want to read into whatever they want i quite like that that

[02:04:18] he says that and um that actually goes along really well with that one um diagnostic criteria about

[02:04:24] only being able to associate with high or high status beings um that that really is right she's

[02:04:30] worthy of him there's lots more in that article yeah exactly um the article is really long it's quite

[02:04:36] a long interview there's lots more in there about filming the scenes with um charles edwards who played

[02:04:41] killer brimboe there's a bunch of stuff about filming with morford clark who plays galadriel and

[02:04:45] also charlie's hopes and thoughts on season three so we'll include the link in the show notes but it's

[02:04:50] a really cool article to go back and have a look at um overall and we got heaps of listener feedback

[02:04:57] this week um including some from from new listeners which is always very exciting so would you like to

[02:05:03] start us off sure this first one is from rita cantinella or l who says i've enjoyed the show so much

[02:05:11] this season and this finale was incredible i can't believe how sauron managed to manipulate me as a

[02:05:17] viewer at one point i felt like i was rooting for him which was a tad concerning i think i have a soft

[02:05:24] spot for an intelligent villain who doesn't have to lie in order to get his way charlie vickers knocked

[02:05:30] it out of the park this season and i want to watch everything he's in now i have a few questions

[02:05:36] if galadriel had fallen into the shadow realm would she have become a barrow white also did

[02:05:43] isildur leave barak behind that boy needs his horse thanks rita um so galadriel yeah if she'd fallen into

[02:05:53] the shadow realm um she wouldn't have become a barrow white so barrow whites are um they are creatures

[02:05:59] from the shadow realm but they are specific creatures that are uh inhabit the bones of the

[02:06:05] the buried kings and the barrow downs but she would have probably become a wraith so in a similar way

[02:06:11] that we see um the kings of men become ring wraiths and a similar way that we see um frodo almost

[02:06:16] becoming a wraith um i believe that's where they were kind of going with that and they could see

[02:06:21] you know you could see that dark wound spreading and you could see galad saying we're losing her to

[02:06:26] the shadow or the shadow realm or the darkness or something like that i believe that's where they