The Handmaid's Tale S6E8-10 Listener Feedback

[00:00:05] Hey everybody, welcome to our podcast. I'm Daphne. And I'm Wendy. And I'm Jason. And this is The Handmaid's Tale Podcast. This week we're sharing your feedback from the final three episodes of The Handmaid's Tale.

[00:00:32] Not a lot of people wrote in. It's weird. We only have 42 pages. Buckle up. People feel strongly. Yeah, we love it. We love that you guys are so passionate about this show and about the last few episodes. And you have been passionate about this show for all six seasons, but coming into this final stretch of episodes and having it be finished,

[00:00:58] it's great to see your continued passion for the show and what your thoughts are. So we're really appreciative that you decided to share your feedback with us for our feedback episodes. Yeah, it's been amazing. Thank you to everybody. I feel like I know some of you from your repeated feedback. I really do. Yeah. So we're going to segue first before we get to listener feedback.

[00:01:24] We are going to have a little bit of news with Jason. Jason, what do you have for us? Jason, what do you have for us? I have an article from the Hollywood Reporter with Bruce Miller and Elizabeth Moss. They actually talked to them in separate conversations, which makes it kind of funny because there's at least one part where they pretty much directly contradict each other. But anyway, it's all about the finale. And I just thought it would, it has a lot of great little tidbits. I'm not going to read the whole thing, but a lot of it.

[00:01:55] So they asked before Margaret Atwood came to you with her plan to write the sequel novel, the testaments, were you planning on reuniting June with daughter Hannah? Or did that seem like too much of a neat ending for this world? Bruce Miller said, it felt like it was tying too much in a bow. Given where we started with June, that seemed like a whole other section of her life. This show was about June and her daughter and her husband and how she lost everything and how she's gradually been pulling a lot of that back together.

[00:02:23] It's the handmaid's tale, not Hannah's tale. It's focused on June's journey from handmaideness to freedom. The question of how she rebuilds her family felt like a whole other step, which we're seeing is a lot more complicated than just let's all go to Alaska. There's plenty of stories from people who get their kids back. Those are the one in a million stories we always tell. I want to tell the story about the 999,000 people who don't get their kids back. They have to go through life and live and it's not easy.

[00:02:51] June is a good example of someone who doesn't ever take the easy way out, but this is as hard as things get in the world and you see what that does to somebody. They said, when Margaret said, I'm writing the testaments and this may influence what you do in the handmaid's tale. She told me, which I guess is the reporter saying me that she gave you a very small, no kill list.

[00:03:14] Aunt Lydia and June's two daughters, Hannah and Nicole slash Holly. Bruce Miller said, yes, a very small one. Lydia is a fucking cat. She has 900 lives, which is exactly how those people survived in those kind of regimes by being very good at stepping slightly out of the way when the shit starts to fall. Ann Dowd has taken that character in so many different directions and shown us doors to parts of her past and personality that we haven't opened yet.

[00:03:39] Aunt Lydia, by the end of the handmaid's tale is just starting to realize that maybe Gilead was lying to her and maybe it isn't just her special girls, quote unquote, who deserve to be free. Ann has built that slowly, carefully, in a believable way over time. Margaret and her are wonderful friends. I thought that was cool. I think I might've heard that, but that's pretty neat. It's a great, it's a great pleasure to be able to continue that character in the testaments. If you look at what happened just in this last season, Lydia is at the end of a rope and then she's back already in power by the end, which is totally her.

[00:04:09] Margaret came to me as soon as she was having the inkling of writing the Testament. So it was very early for me to get the information. She let me know as the creator of the world that things might be shifting a little under my feet. The show went past the book, The Handmaid's Tale.

[00:04:22] So I was trying to come up with an ending that fit well. And certainly I was playing with a lot of the things that she talked about doing in the testaments. But this is called The Handmaid's Tale. It's not June's tale. It's her time as a handmaid. And at the end, the final episode is that she's not a handmaid anymore in any way, shape or form. She's nobody's handmaid. She's of June. And Elizabeth Moss said,

[00:04:44] I didn't have the task of writing the ending, but I understand and I'm aware that that was the biggest challenge. The Testament has Hannah not get out. That was definitely something we would have played with for the end of Handmaid's. June may be getting her out. But we had to move towards the sequel that had been written. Now, I don't think that was a bad thing, but was it the thing that was probably most present? Yeah, I would say so. So that was kind of the part that I thought was a little contradictory because he's saying, oh, no, no, we didn't want to tell that story. And then Elizabeth Moss is like, yeah, we might have told that story.

[00:05:16] Who's telling the truth? Yeah, I kind of think they might have done something with it. Because I think if there was no Testaments coming, and they ended it without them being reunited, the fan backlash was just going to explode. Yeah, I mean, it already kind of is, but it would have been worse, right? Yeah, I think so. Yeah, I would have felt differently myself. Yeah. Oh, yeah. So it goes on. Bruce, you've told me you always knew how the series would end.

[00:05:46] So had you always imagined the final scene would be June saying those words that began her tale? Was that in your initial pitch for how you wanted to adapt the series? He says, yes, it was in my pitch because it's really the story of the book. It was how you think about her as a character from the beginning. What is that voiceover? Where's it coming from? From the beginning, I was thinking, so what we're watching is this box of tapes that someone found just dramatized. But it's this box of her story, her tale of being a handmaid.

[00:06:12] So I said that what I really wanted to do was that when you get to the end, you feel like you understood what you just saw and what it was as a full piece. I'm hoping that it felt satisfying as an ending for this story. And Elizabeth Moss says, what I connected to with June at the beginning was the same thing I connected with at the very end. She has this quality of wanting to survive, not only as herself, but to create a better future specifically for her children, but also for the next generation. That is her goal in life.

[00:06:41] I saw that in episode one in that first script. I remember calling my mom and telling her that. And it's the same thing in the very last scene. Originally, it was written that June goes and sits on the front steps of the Waterford house. And I said, I want her to go inside. I think it would be so much more powerful if she goes into that room. So I talked to Bruce and asked, can we go inside the house? And he said, yes, he loved it. And so he wrote it. So June goes inside the house. Yeah. Much better choice, right? Yeah. I agree. Yeah. I love the way it ended. Yeah.

[00:07:11] Yeah. If it was on the steps, it wouldn't have been felt the same because it's just inside those walls where it seems nice outside, but inside it's not. Yeah. And the novel starts with the room. Yeah. I think it came full circle. And I think for me that stood out. Yeah. In a great way. They said, Lizzie, were you listening to yourself from the pilot as you were saying your final lines?

[00:07:36] She says, I realized about 10 minutes before we shot it that I wanted to make sure that when I was speaking the final voiceover, it matched the original voiceover from episode one. I wasn't sure if I wanted to do that or not, but I realized that I needed to match my mouth to the pilot words. We're setting up the final shot of the series. And I went on the Hulu app on my phone to episode one, and I just played it over and over and over again and memorized it in the cadence that I set it. I told our script supervisor that I can't get one word wrong. This has to be word perfect. Then we did it and it matches almost perfectly.

[00:08:05] There's a slight cadence change when my body's going back and I leaned forward. We were able to fix that in post. But what's in the finale is my voiceover from nine years ago. So that was actually her voice from nine years ago that we heard just matched her lips in the finale. Oh, nice. Good. That's interesting. They said, Bruce always told us this show is June's tale, so she survives. Even still, the audience wasn't sure she'd make it through.

[00:08:34] I rewatched the pilot and knowing what you just said, that's wild and very meta. And she says, oh, that's awesome. Using the pilot voiceover is an idea that I had and I didn't know if it would work. And then it ended up working. And it's so cool because there's something slightly disconnected about it that's really interesting. I think almost subconsciously as an audience member, you feel the meta nature of it, especially when she says, my name is Offred. And the tape recording click is in the pilot after the door slams. You hear that click.

[00:09:02] Bruce Miller said, the click of the recording at the beginning, we put in the pilot. So we've been thinking about this particular moment since then. Wow. Isn't that cool? That is incredible. I don't remember that. Like, I don't remember hearing that. I saw in our Facebook group, someone said they went back and checked and it was there. Man. And so that makes it hit even harder. Right. I think. So it's super cool. I like how details are not overlooked.

[00:09:30] Like they remember them. They make note of them. They try to, to bring it back to where it all started. And I think they did that. And in a clever way like that, where it's something that you don't notice at first, but when you go back, oh my God, they had that in mind the whole time. Kind of reminds me of Knives Out, Glass Onion.

[00:09:58] And there's a moment in that movie where you, you find something out and then you have to go back and watch the scene again. And you say, oh yeah, it was there. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, they asked Bruce about the difference between the Testaments novel and the upcoming show. He said, the Testaments book is a sequel to the Handmaid's Tale book. And there are things that are different between that and the show. Timeline things that end up mattering because you want it to be consistent within the TV world.

[00:10:25] So as creator of the Testaments, I'm trying to make a sequel to the TV show, The Handmaid's Tale, and make that work clearly. There are things that actually contradict from the book to the TV show, but each adaptation has to be its own thing. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I get that. Yeah. Yeah. He says, they say, you left June and also Luke and likely Rita and Moira still out there in the ether of this TV universe fighting against Gilead.

[00:10:52] Moss is an executive producer on the Testaments, but there's no word about an on-screen role. What would you say to people who are hoping June will show up in the Testaments? He said, that's a good thing to hope for. I hope she shows up there too. I'm like, well, can't you put her in it? You're the showrunner. She's still doing her job, still doing what she was doing in The Handmaid's Tale. Luke and Moira are still out there somewhere ringing the bell to get Hannah back.

[00:11:15] The beauty of having watched The Handmaid's Tale is that you understand there's this huge operation of people who are out there who care and who are risking themselves to get to reunite with their children. The people in the Testaments show don't feel that. But from experiencing Handmaid's, you know there's this whole operation. So is June influencing the Testaments? Absolutely. She's out there. She's trying to get Hannah back. Do we see her? I would love to see her. I love Lizzie Moss. She's awesome. She's very involved behind the scenes.

[00:11:42] And Elizabeth Moss just said, you're just going to have to watch the show. So my guess is she'll show up at least in some kind of cameos. But who knows? Maybe by the end she might have more of a role, hopefully, right? Yeah. I mean, I didn't think we were going to see Emily in the finale. And that was a huge surprise. So I think anything is possible. And with Bruce Miller at the helm of it, I'm in.

[00:12:11] I trust that it's going to be well done. I kind of assumed she would be in it. But if it follows the books, well, I mean, we shouldn't talk about that. Yeah. We should. Yeah. By the way, what's her name? Alexis Bledel, who played Emily. There was some stuff in this article about her, but I didn't include it just for time. But basically, it just said that they were so glad. Like Bruce Miller brought up the idea to Elizabeth Moss to have her come back.

[00:12:41] And Elizabeth Moss said, well, now that you mentioned it, you realize you're going to have to do that because we have to do that. And then they weren't sure if the actor would be into it, but she was totally into it. And it was really emotional and everything. It was so good. I was so glad to have her back. Yeah. And it tied back to a scene earlier in the series with that ice cream shop. So, again, it's full circle. Okay. A little bit more. So, they said, so if we weren't going to get Hannah back, did you always know you were going to give Janine Charlotte back? Thank you for that.

[00:13:11] He says, oh my gosh, yes. One of the things I always thought is that little girl looks so much like her. We'd talked from the beginning and a lot of it was about building Naomi and Janine to the point where that would happen. Building to where Naomi knows. The one thing about Janine is that Janine is really tough, which she needs to know when she's giving her daughter back. Listen, I hope June really does get Hannah back, but I'm hoping that people feel like this is the ending to Janine's story that she deserves.

[00:13:35] The fact that I'm not going to be able to work with or see Maddie Brewer every day is impossible to say out loud. And then this, I love this part. I understand you had a different ending for Serena than the one that we saw. Bruce Miller says, I don't believe, quote, what people deserve and all that stuff, but I wanted to kill her because I think she was such a horrible person.

[00:14:00] And being dead on the side of the road completely anonymously after she was pushed from the train would have been a fitting end. I had to be convinced not to throw her off that train along with the kid. Oh my gosh. I didn't know. I didn't know. And there are people that wanted her to die. So I know that there are fans that would have been happy with that. There are people that are upset that she landed on her feet. And they're like, she's going to, you know, she's going to be on top in six months. They're like, she should have Bruce.

[00:14:30] They should have given Bruce his way. The interviewer just says, wow. And then Elizabeth Moss says, Bruce did tell me his thoughts. And he told me that he was toying with certain things. I'm not the writer and I respect the role of the writer very much. So he told me what he was thinking. And I thought, okay, that's interesting. Wow. That'd be kind of crazy if she didn't make it. But in my heart, I really wanted to see her survive because I'm Serena's biggest fan. And I'm her biggest supporter and defender. I want her to live. I just think she deserves that. And I think Noah deserves that.

[00:14:58] And Miller says, if it was Eva Braun and it was Hitler's kid, what would you do? I don't think anybody would hesitate. But I love that what we ended up doing, because what I really wanted for most of the characters is to get exactly what they wanted and see what happened. June got a ton of what she wanted and a ton of stuff she didn't expect, including Emily's return, including reuniting with Luke, who she thought was dead at the beginning of the show. Serena's story really feels like the end of Serena's story, that she's someone who's

[00:15:27] never going to admit that she did wrong. But you can see how holding onto the illusion that she did right is getting very, very difficult. I love Serena. I love her to the point where I'm so much more mad at her because she should know better. There's just a little bit more, but they go, but to see June forgive her in the end felt like it gave the audience permission to accept that as well. Elizabeth Moss said, that scene also kills me. I think it's beautiful. I couldn't read Serena's ending without crying. I can't watch it without crying.

[00:15:56] Yvonne's performance is magnificent. Each and every single one of these actors is at the top of their fucking game this season, and she did it in one take, that whole speech. She's talking about talking to the baby. I get chills thinking about it. But I think this next part might be Bruce Miller speaking. Yvonne had the idea that she wanted to get to this place of acceptance and a place of peace at the end. It would have been very easy to cut that scene shorter. But when we were in the edit, I protected it because Yvonne wanted her character to find peace.

[00:16:25] You see this peace on her face where she realizes Noah's all she needs. That's all Serena ever wanted, having a baby. I think your ending is my favorite ending in this series. It's so perfect. I think that is Elizabeth Moss saying, but I wanted to read that because I know some people thought that she was just trying to talk herself into it and not actually feeling it. But at least according to Elizabeth Moss, Serena was at peace there. And then there's one more little thing that I thought, think we might be interested in.

[00:16:53] They said, should we find hope in June and Luke's final conversation? Because it was ambiguous. Elizabeth Moss says, yes, I don't think it was so ambiguous. I definitely felt like there was hope in that future when I was standing there with her with him. We had this idea to play it like they were flirting with each other, like they had crushes on each other. Like, did they almost go back to the beginning? There's such a circular nature to the finale. And absolutely, I think there's a lot of hope for the two of them. But I think they have to kind of start again. And I'm like, oh, well, that sort of explains it.

[00:17:22] They're like, oh, this is full circle. So we have to pretend these two people don't know each other. They're just meeting each other because that's really what it felt like to me. Like, what happened to everything we saw before this? Well, they talked about how they changed. Like, they did mention that they're not the same people that they were. Are they the same people they were 10 days earlier when they agreed that they should stay together? Maybe. I don't. Maybe not. I don't know.

[00:17:52] That was before everything went to hell. And like, even more to hell, I guess. Anyway, I just, I thought there was a lot of cool stuff in there. Okay. The Handmaid's Tale boss explains Nick's winner's line in final moments. Miller is the creator of the Handmaid's Tale series and served as its showrunner through season five.

[00:18:16] Yalin Chang and Eric Tuchman took over as co-showrunners for the final season as Miller pivoted to creating the Testament spinoff that's currently filming in Toronto. Miller was still creatively involved in the final season and wrote next week's Handmaid's Tale series finale. Miller says that the join the winners line that Nick's stated in on the plane was indicative of Nick's true good nature.

[00:18:46] Siding with Gilead, according to Miller, was an act of protection for his wife and unborn son. He's willingly choosing to side with Gilead. But think of what he said. He didn't say, we chose the right side. Miller explains to TV Insider. He needed to be on the winning side because he can't be on the losing side in Gilead because that means you're gone and you can't help anybody.

[00:19:11] Nick isn't choosing Gilead as a sudden endorsement of its beliefs and practices, Nick Miller says, but rather a belief that there's no beating this regime. It's better to protect yourself by moving with it rather than against it. What he really means is we pick the winning side, which is good to Nick because on the losing side, there's 36 of them, the commanders, dead already back in Gilead.

[00:19:35] Miller explains he liked to stay out of trouble and this seemed to be the only way he could possibly stay out of trouble in the long run. I feel like that's making a lot of excuses. I do too. But I do believe that he, that, that is probably what Nick thought. I mean, Nick became a commander before he married her. So he was already trying to rise up the ranks and maybe if, you know, you can't help anybody if you're dead.

[00:20:03] So if Bruce Miller is saying, I mean, Bruce Miller knows this, so he knows what he's talking about, but I'm just like, these are the questions that come up in my mind. Like why, why didn't, why didn't he just lay low if he wanted to protect himself? Like, seems like you're better off just being a dude than being a commander. And unless he's saying that Nick wanted to have power so he could help people, which is maybe the case. He was able to help.

[00:20:32] I mean, he was able to help June, I think as a commander, there are things that he was able to do, but I don't think that's why he became a commander. No, no. And I don't think he was interested in helping anyone other than the people in his direct periphery, meaning June, Rose and his unborn child. And it seemed really seemed like, I mean, he told June, like, I don't, you're the only one I care about, you know, he wasn't in love with Rose and he was about to run away

[00:21:01] to Paris. So what does that say about how much he wanted to make sure his kid was okay? I'm not sure if he really even would have. I think it was a pipe dream. Yeah. Yeah. That's a good point. Just like a panic. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. How do I stop? What's going to get ready to unfold here? Sure. And the answer is you can't. Yep. All right. Are we ready? I think we are.

[00:21:31] So this is all feedback from people after they watched episode eight. Okay. Can somebody remind me of episodes in eight's name? Exodus. Mm hmm. Nine's execution. Exodus. Yeah. Exodus. Yeah. It was Exodus, execution. The Handmaid's Tale. The Handmaid's Tale. Okay. Okay. So this is for Exodus. Um, I'll start it. Michelle Keefe says, I don't think June will make it out, but we will see the reunion

[00:22:00] of Luke and Hannah and June's mom. You were sort of. Right. No, wrong. Wrong. No, Hannah. We got June's mom. June did make it out. Right. Yeah. Our schmant wrote in to answer a question we had posed on the podcast about where New Bethlehem was filmed. He said New Bethlehem, or he or she said New Bethlehem scenes are shot in Canada, east

[00:22:26] of Toronto in a neighborhood known as the beaches on Lake Ontario. So there you go. Yeah. I thought it was beautiful, but yeah. Yeah. I'm going to say they added some sun filters there, right? Yes. Maria Lawson says, I'm a hundred percent here for this rebellion. I was genuinely shocked. Wharton let Serena walk out of the house. I expected anger in her reaction to the Handmaid, but not as much compassion as she showed. Way to grow as a person, Serena.

[00:22:55] Bell got his. Thank you, June. And it looked like Wharton was about to be taken out too. Love the long overhead shots of the Handmaids walking together. The only part I just couldn't quite buy was the guard so casually giving up to Aunt Lydia. Yes, he was outnumbered, but it just felt off that he would let them all go so easily. The final message of this episode is hopeful. Together, the Handmaids are stronger than those that are in power and together they can win.

[00:23:25] I just thought maybe that meant that she was his boss. Yeah, I think in some instances they're supposed to be listening to the ants in certain instances. I think it was true in the Jezebels too. Robin Mark says, I'm in a rush to leave the house, so I'll just say this. This episode gave me the stress sweats. There was so much tension throughout the whole thing.

[00:23:50] I didn't realize I was watching hunched over until it ended and my shoulders went back down again. Eek. Oh, wow. Yeah. Julie says, Lydia's struggling outside of the structure and process. When she had the day-to-day routine, ceremonies, these things grounded her as she lived every day like the next. No doubt, no change, no diversion. Now there's chaos. Others are questioning. She's questioning.

[00:24:16] She can do things for or against the whole of the Handmaids, but when it's just Janine, a person, her girl, she has to think. She's consistent in her desire to do what's right by God. She doesn't know what it is anymore. I really like those last two sentences, but I do wonder, and I have wondered this about Janine. I mean, not Janine, Lydia, that I think she's still, we don't see it, but she's still doing all those routines, right?

[00:24:41] She still has to bring up Handmaids and coach them and everything at the Red Center, I think. Yes. And punish them if they don't abide by everything. But it seems like the Red Center has been infiltrated. So who knows what's really happening there? Ginger Morris says, I just came here to say, ding dong, the Bellin's gone. Commander Bell. Yes. That was so awesome. Nice to meet you.

[00:25:12] Okay, so we have a voicemail from Rick. Hey, guys. Rick from Orlando with some quick feedback on episode eight of The Handmaid's Tale. For the most part, I thought it was a good episode. I enjoyed it, and I'm looking forward to seeing how this all ends. Unfortunately, the existence of The Testaments as another show is a little bit of a spoiler because we've already heard that Aunt Lydia's going to be in the new series.

[00:25:35] And the implication is that because there is a new series that, you know, maybe the Gilead situation just doesn't really go away. Maybe this revolution ends up being a big nothing. Maybe the show ends on a big cliffhanger, and that's kind of unfortunate. I kind of wish they hadn't rolled out plans for The Testaments so loudly. I mean, they made such a big deal about it. So anyway, I thought it was a decent episode. I'm looking forward to the final two, and we'll see what happens there.

[00:26:02] The other thing I wanted to mention quickly about your broadcast, you do a great job. I think you guys do a really efficient and in-depth job analyzing the episodes. I also kind of like the Mayday segment where you give people a chance to sort of vent about the current situation in Washington and draw comparisons to Gilead. I think that's a great idea. It's a good thing to talk about these issues. I know there's a lot about the current administration that I don't like also.

[00:26:30] I certainly don't like the plan to try to put religion into law in a way that's never really been done in our country. So there are a lot of things that are disturbing. But I do want to point out two significant differences. And again, I'm not a fan of Donald Trump. But I will say that nothing in the Trump administration suggests that he or any other leader would approve of the kind of slaughter that took place at Jezebel's.

[00:26:57] And nothing suggests that they would ever advocate a society where women are illiterate, where women are enslaved, where women are raped, and are kept as concubines or whatever you want to call it. So as bad as the Trump administration is in a lot of ways, nobody has ever suggested that they would do anything of that magnitude. I also wanted to mention that Trump was legally elected.

[00:27:23] And I've never heard anything that there was any chicanery in the 2024 election. He got a plurality of the popular vote. He got a majority of the electoral vote. Pretty good majority. He won both houses. Both the Senate and the Congress are under Republican control. He won all the battleground states. I don't think you can take that away from him. And you should acknowledge that that is a difference from Gilead. Gilead was a hostile takeover.

[00:27:49] That was a dictatorship where they just came in and bullied their way into power. As much as you may disagree with the Trump administration, they did come into power legally. And as I said, nothing suggests they're going to do the kinds of things that are in Gilead. They've done some bad things, and they've done some things in the wrong way, but nothing of that magnitude. And I will point out, and I will give credit to Trump for the fact that he has put women into a lot of high-level positions. He had a woman as his United Nations ambassador in the first term.

[00:28:19] He actually initially was going to appoint a woman to the U.N. This time he's got an attorney general who's female, a highly respected attorney general actually from Florida. He's got a female chief of staff. So, yeah, he's done a lot of bad things. He's done a lot of things I don't like, and he's certainly conducting government in a way that I don't respect. But it's not like Gilead. And you can draw some comparisons, but they really are different situations, and I think we probably should be clear about that.

[00:28:46] Anyway, I've gone way too long with this message, so looking forward to the last two episodes. You guys do a great job. And by the way, are you going to be covering The Testaments? Maybe you've mentioned that already, but The Testaments is going to be the sequel to The Handmaid's Tale. So I'm hoping you guys will at least consider covering that as well. Anyway, that's all I have for today. Take care, guys. Thanks. Thanks, Rick. Yeah.

[00:29:08] Thanks for your compliments on the way that we decided to cover the show and including the May Day segments in. That's appreciated. It was a definite choice that we made. About your comments about how the Trump administration in the country isn't exactly like Gilead, we're not saying it's exactly like Gilead.

[00:29:35] Clearly, we don't have a system of handmaids here. But our point isn't that. It's that it's headed in that direction and in some really shocking, alarming, horrible ways that need attention so that it doesn't become more like that. And I don't think you can ever know for sure what Trump will do. You say, oh, he would never because he doesn't have a lot of static principles other than he'll do whatever he thinks will get him more power and adoration.

[00:30:05] And it's sometimes more the people around him that you have to be more worried about. He brings loyalists with their own agendas. Some of them have stances on things that are anti-woman. Trump used to be pro-choice. He described himself as very pro-choice. You said you don't like that there's religion coming into the law. Trump's not religious. He doesn't know anything about the Bible. That's all just ways to it means to an end of more power for him and he'll do it in whatever way.

[00:30:34] That's his most important thing. And he doesn't care who he hurts to get there. And so the idea that, ah, it's not that bad. I mean, talk to one of the several people who were here legally, got shipped off to foreign prisons with reputation for brutal living conditions and maybe for life with no due process. And ask them if they think it's not that bad, you know? And also how bad should we let it get before we start speaking out about it and doing something about it?

[00:31:01] Gilead's coup was sudden, but the conditions and public sentiment that led up to it weren't. The Sons of Jacob was a movement that grew before it could take over. And there might not be a violent coup here, but that doesn't mean that things are fine and won't get worse if we don't do anything. And then, yeah, he was fairly and freely elected. I think we would all say that, although I've heard people casting doubt on that. I wouldn't really focus on that myself.

[00:31:25] But they are trying to stack the deck for the next election by changing voting laws and things like that. So I don't know, man. A lot of that just felt like, ah, you guys, you shouldn't worry about it. And we're worried. I would also counter that when you talk about that, we don't have systematic rape endorsed by our government.

[00:31:46] The government in many areas is attempting to lower the legal marriage age, sometimes to 14. So that's 14-year-old and it's going to be girls. It's not going to be boys. It's 14-year-old girls being able to marry 20-something, 30-something, 40-something-year-old men. So if you don't think that's rape, like, that is.

[00:32:11] And just out of the words of Bradley Whitford that we played during the finale is that 64,000 rape victims do not have access to abortion. So that's girls many times under the age of 18 that are being forced to birth their rapist children, many of whom are their relatives. So. All right. Who's next? Just a counter.

[00:32:41] So Carmel says, oh, my God, is Hannah the unknown handmaid in the final scene? No. No. Not to my knowledge. She's a. Yeah, she's not a handmaid. She's in wife school. I'm glad, too. Yeah. That would have been pretty horrifying. Yeah. Yeah. Denise says, and I'm sorry if that got a bit intense, Rick, but I just wanted to push back on some of those things. But I'm glad you're listening that you enjoy what we're doing and this should be a conversation. So.

[00:33:11] Yeah. We appreciate it. We don't mind when people send in things that may not completely line up with what we're saying. It gives us a chance to have that conversation. So thank you. Yeah. But I do feel kind of charged about it. And I know that comes through sometimes. Denise says, hi, everyone. I refreshed on previous seasons of Handmaid's Tale through your podcast, and I really have appreciated your thoughtful discussions. Thank you.

[00:33:40] Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

[00:34:18] Denise. Denise. P.S. I'm glad you mentioned Esther in your comments on the most recent episode, because I haven't been able to stop thinking about her since the end of last season. And I also hope they would touch on her story again. Fingers crossed. There's still time. Oh, there's no more time. They didn't. That's a bummer. Maybe, maybe she'll be in the testaments. I think you did a good job, Jason. I couldn't have said it better than that. Oh, yeah.

[00:34:47] That was a nice message. And, you know, thank you to you, Denise, and everyone else who's expressed support that we decided to do that because we weren't sure. And if you feel like you want to show a little bit more support, you know, there's that little review button in Apple Podcasts. Yes. We have had some pushback in our reviews at Apple Podcasts.

[00:35:11] That has really been the place that people have come out and said negative things. But for the most part... It's been positive. It's been really positive. So we appreciate that. It validates our decision. Mm-hmm. Allison Van Tilbor, and I've really enjoyed all your messages this season, Allison. Hi, guys. I've loved following this season of The Handmaid's Tale with y'all.

[00:35:39] Predicting where it will go is fun and validating when I have a theory that you also share. Some fun theories for the last few episodes having to do with Hannah. Hannah will save the day somehow at the very end because she has the same fiery energy of her mom and grandmom. She would be at an age where she may be able to think for herself more. She's not a little girl anymore. Hannah has been married off. Discovering this will infuriate June and put her in a situation

[00:36:07] where she will die. Maybe Luke does find a way to Hannah while June and Maura are doing all their handmaids business, and he gets his dream of finding his daughter on his own. Nick will be the one to save Hannah. Bring her to Luke, and then Nick will die. June and Luke survive and have to raise Rose's or Serena's son because Rose, Nick, and or Serena die. When Tuella arrives on the scene with the American Army,

[00:36:34] June's mom and daughter, Nicole Holly, come with them. There will be a scene with the whole blended family, including June, June's mom, Holly, June's daughter, Holly, Luke, Hannah, Nick, even Rose and their son, and maybe even Serena, who has been established to be Nick's stepmom. Share a brief moment before several of them die. Who knows? Any of these could be fun to watch. Wow. That is cool.

[00:37:01] There's a lot with Hannah in here, and we were talking before we recorded that on IMDb, the rating for episode nine is, I think it said 9.2 or something, and episode 10, the finale was a 5.7. And I think we think a lot of people are not satisfied because Hannah wasn't reunited with June, and that might in part be because of the testaments, and I can totally understand that. And I think we

[00:37:31] all said, too, before we started recording, that if there was no testaments and this had been the ending, then maybe we would also be a little bit less satisfied than we were. Yeah. So Kim says, Hi, I just want to say that I'm a first-time feedback contributor and that as a listener, I go all the way back to an episode where I believe Jason announced that his wife had talked about him taking time off from his job to see if starting a podcast about The Walking Dead

[00:37:56] could be successful. Following a passion. I have followed you ever since through many, many different shows and have yet to contribute, but tonight I feel like I have to. Nice. A few episodes ago, I felt that Commander Bell had a dad that we were going to figure out was an important character or that there was going to be a connection that was important. When he was at

[00:38:22] Jezebel's plotting to put Lawrence on the wall, one of the commanders asked if his father would approve. At that point, I was like, who is his dad? And I immediately went to Wharton. After this episode tonight, I feel like he and Wharton could be brothers. I want to make your feedback window so I can't go to find out the interaction that made me feel that way, but there was something. And maybe

[00:38:47] the phone call that he got just before June took him out could have been from his father warning him about the plan. I also want to make a few comments about Wharton and sorry, Jason, I'm going to disagree with you just a little bit. I feel like Wharton has been duplicitous the entire time he made his change to being full, the full on Gilead commander right after the wedding. I truly feel that his

[00:39:13] actions do not put him in the same category as Lydia. Lydia is a religious fanatic that fell into it and has been doing what she thought was right and just can't let go of all that she believed was right. She shows a glimmer and then falls back and gets a glimmer and falls back. Unfortunately, I've known people in my own world who do the same. And I'm really sorry that library was not built in

[00:39:38] just one day. And I believe one of you guys mentioned it, Daphne or one of you mentioned it, that it wasn't built in just one day. That was me. I'm sorry Wharton has been duplicitous from the beginning and has been knowing what he was doing with Serena. Sadly, I don't think he can just let Serena go. Some days I want a different arc for Serena and other days I want her to die a justifiably

[00:40:02] horrible death. I think June and she will meet up again and we don't know who will come out the other side. I love you guys. You do an amazing job every week. I can't wait to watch an episode just so I can get done and listen to you right away so that you can remind me of all that I've missed. Jason, congratulations on an awesome adventure that has led us all down an amazing path with many shows.

[00:40:28] And I will tell you that I'm tearing up as I type this for you and all of your success. Thank you. Aw, thank you. Aw, that's so nice. Glad you finally wrote in. Thank you. Cynthia says, I've been listening to your podcast and appreciate the extended unpacking. Thank you. The one thing I've not heard come up is the fact that High Commander Wharton is from DC. He was introduced in season six. You seem to have some affection for the actor from a previous show that I have never seen.

[00:40:58] Yeah, a few things, but he was way different. He's always been a frightening character for me. I don't have any preconceived nostalgia and always had anxiety and fear for Serena's involvement with him. That's because I was always aware and haunted by Wharton from season six, where we saw the quote, next level oppression in DC. That's a good point. Remember the bars on the handmaid's mouth, the tight leather mouth covering, preventing them from speaking the circles on the ground at the

[00:41:26] airport where the handmaids had to kneel with their heads down. Remember the home that Serena toured with the loving signs of a happy family and evidence of the violence that occurred there. The family pictures, baby room with broken glass strewn everywhere. My last bit of constructive feedback is that sometimes it seems like the male host is watching inattentively and seems to have forgotten many factual things from previous seasons. I'm guessing that he has some sort of status to be here.

[00:41:53] For listeners that are huge fans of the show, whatever the status is, doesn't come across on a program that's based on listening to a discussion. Many times I've thought, did you watch the show? If you're going to expend the energy to host a podcast, maybe review previous seasons, maybe watch the current episode twice, better prep. You know, honestly, that really hurt to read that. Yeah. I'm going to be honest about that.

[00:42:20] I don't get it either because I feel like we were all really suspicious of Wharton. Yeah. The whole time. Well, no, I mean, I think Cynthia has somewhat of a point because there have been times where I, like when May Almardini came on and she mentioned that they had already been talked about poisoning the cake. And I somehow missed that. And I'm like, oh, they already mentioned that, you know?

[00:42:49] So there's been a few times like that this season. And I think that's what Cynthia is talking about. I mean, I thought the karaoke dream was real. Mostly because I wanted it to be real. It was so nice. I think I really wanted it to be real so badly. Like everybody comes from a different lens. Yeah. Well, no, I mean, there were times when I forgot things this season and I surprised myself

[00:43:16] a couple of times like, wow, I'm usually more on the stick than that. But man, this message really just makes it seem like I don't belong here and that I'm only here because of status or whatever. And I don't know, it doesn't seem that fair to me. But if other people think that, I mean, when I read this, I'm like, maybe I won't come back for the test. No, you will come back for the test. I'm not. I don't know. Did you read the one before that? Yeah. Come on. Maybe we should just end there.

[00:43:42] I mean, we've talked about this. One of the things that I think helps our podcast stand out from some of the others is that we do have a male co-host on the show with us. It's not just me and Wendy and another woman. And I think that's one of the strengths of the Handmaid's Tale podcast is we're bringing in a male voice to talk about this. And we need men to watch this show.

[00:44:08] We do. We do. We definitely do. So no, Jason, you're not allowed to bow out. We're not letting it happen. But I... Jason, if you want to take that out. No, no, it's okay. I think it's... I like talking about real stuff like this. And I think, Cynthia, that there were a couple of times this season where, like I said, I wasn't on the stick. Trust me, I watch every episode twice. I pause. I take a ton of notes. I was probably taking notes,

[00:44:37] which is why I missed a couple of things. But anyway. Yeah. Yeah. I know why you wrote that, but I feel like it was a bit harsh. But anyway. All right. All right. Kylie says, Hey, guys. Just want to preface an apology for my very long comments. No need to apologize. I have so much to say and no one but you guys to talk to about it. I have such hot takes. I lose karma points on Reddit daily and I'm not on Facebook.

[00:45:06] Thank you for allowing the fans to be a part of your show. I love what you do. I loved this episode so much. The cinematography is so incredible in each episode, but something about the last couple has just taken my breath away. I agree with what Jason said that it reminded me of the early episodes. Not seeing The Handmaids in mass and in formation in a while really helped it feel like a throwback.

[00:45:30] Like Daphne said, it was quiet. The tone was so quiet until after the wedding that it was nerve wracking. I'm not a fan of horror movies. I have enough of my own anxiety to possibly need more so I avoid them. But the suspense of this episode was that same feeling. I think I forgot to breathe for a good chunk of it. After an exhausting and ongoing debate on Reddit about Nick, now it's about if Serena has turned.

[00:45:59] I wrote to you guys basically a thesis on narcissism a few episodes ago. Thank you Jason for the condolences. I absolutely have been through narcissistic abuse and am intimately aware of how they work and their manipulation. I've been out for years and still am grappling with it all. With that being said, I'm grateful I went through it because I gained so much knowledge on it and can clock them from miles away.

[00:46:26] I've hated Donald Trump since well before he started running and the literal PTSD I have is triggered every time I see or hear about that demon. While I believe Serena sees things a bit differently, I still don't trust her for a moment. Her wanting reform for The Handmaids is not for The Handmaids but for her. She'd feel better about what she's done. She'd feel redeemed by June. She'd be a hero to the oppressed that she helped create.

[00:46:53] The show throws in Easter eggs to just that. Saying to The Handmaid's Tale that she and June were friends was a big fat lie to serve herself, to make her look good. Going home with Wharton to a handmaid, she realized she was tricked. Up until that point, she thought she was in control and had someone on her side. She thought she was using Wharton like a chess piece, but in fact, he was using her. And she freaked the fuck out. She immediately took the victim role.

[00:47:23] She immediately turned on him. She freed that handmaid, but up until that moment, she hasn't been interested in just letting the handmaids go. She needs them for the face of reform once they retire. Everything she does is for her own benefit. The scene in the Red Center was one of the best scenes in the series, in my opinion. Ann Dowd's talent is unmatched. The emotions she can bring to the viewers is incredible.

[00:47:50] From fear to anger to empathy, it was absolutely beautiful. She needs awards. Her performance was exquisite. If I had to put a list together of most likely to die in order, it would be 1, Moira, 2, Nick, 3, Luke, 4, Rose, 5, Aunt Phoebe, 6, Wharton, 7, Naomi, 8, June, 9, Janine, and 10, Rita. I feel like my list would have been similar.

[00:48:16] I don't think they'll all die, but they all have the most chance, in my opinion. I really thought Moira was a goner at the Red Center. I'm 99% convinced she's donezo, which will be absolutely heartbreaking. I know I'm not alone when I say that all these people could die if it meant a happy ending for Janine. If the writers care at all about the viewers, they'll give that poor girl a happily ever after on a beach with her daughter.

[00:48:44] Okay, I'll end it here, or I'd write a novel about Nick, and it's gone on long enough already. Can't wait for next week. Have a fantastic week. That was awesome. Wow. Yeah. Only two on her list passed away, like died. I really thought Moira and Luke especially were just no way were they coming out of that. Yeah, that was the hard part about the last two episodes was the fear.

[00:49:12] I felt like so many were going to die, and I didn't know when it was coming, so I had that anxiety waiting for it. And when we didn't lose more people, it was kind of like, oh, you breathe for just a second. Yeah, and I'm not disappointed that more people didn't die. Me either. Like on The Walking Dead. Yeah. Some people with shows, when they're expecting a lot of people to die, get upset when it's only one or two.

[00:49:40] I don't feel that way. I'm kind of, it's this relief because you grow to love these characters, and then to have them killed off just to kill off characters, that's not a problem. I also think shows are a little gun shy, right? I mean, especially after Game of Thrones, I feel like shows are gun shy to kill off all their main characters at the end.

[00:50:05] Even if it's, like, it would have been reasonable and realistic had they done it. And I'm not upset that they didn't do it at all. I think they wanted to end more hopeful, and I think that was a good choice. And I think that's what people want in general. Yeah, I think so, too. I think so, too. Most people don't have my attitude of, well, that seems right.

[00:50:29] I mean, I would understand that, and I think years ago it would have been more in that place where you're saying it would have been more right to have things turn out more bleakly, right? But, um... I don't think it would have, I don't think I would have been upset at the show for doing that, you know? But I think others would have been. And so I don't fault them for going in that direction at all. Yeah.

[00:50:54] Like I said, like, you know, I know there's lots of opinions about Game of Thrones, but I do think that was one of the big things is that they killed off some people's favorite characters. Yeah. And people were pretty upset about that. Yeah. But watching Game of Thrones, you kind of, I feel like no one's ever, no one was ever safe. Yeah. So it was like, okay. Yeah. No one's safe. That's right. They're gonna go.

[00:51:20] I mean, if you got to the end of that show and you're getting mad that people die, it's like, how'd you get this far? Yeah. There were a lot of points in there. Because people think the ending is gonna be different somehow. Like, the ending of a show is different. I mean, think about Lost and so many other shows. Yeah. Like, people get really upset when it... They do. They do. Well, Tam from Perth wrote in. Hi, Tam. Hi, friends.

[00:51:43] Once again, we are presented with pure illusion of an ideal start to a marriage being carried through the front door until you see the worst present ever in the form of a handmaid. Serena says, I will survive you. And Wharton's response of, I'm not something to survive. I'm a good man. Ugh. Yuck. Those lines gave me chills. Firstly for, he's already had a wife. She didn't survive. But that's an extreme, full throttle reaction of mine.

[00:52:09] Serena saying she will survive was the real activation for me. I try not to use the word trigger as I think it's a quick add-on and calm is better for self-control. Women, and I say women because I'm a woman and this is a show about women surviving multiple rapes, mutilation, trauma, being pushed off trains, you name it. There's been done a lot over and over.

[00:52:34] I call myself a survivor and I relate to those brave, strong women for vocalizing and auctioning their response to their traumatic experiences. I'm even for Serena surviving to a degree purely for a possible turnaround like Aunt Lydia. To take action and use trauma for strength or in the handmaid's case, vengeance, is such a tough switch from being a victim.

[00:52:57] Getting yourself back into the place of traumatic time to save yourself and stand up for yourself is just as hard as getting through the violation sometimes. I can say this with a little pride that I'm still surviving 30 years after putting my perpetrator in jail after a trial and more. So my whole life, because I was a child even younger than the youngest wives of Gilead, around 15 or 16. Wow.

[00:53:29] The age I was when my abuse was ending after 12 years because I could speak up for myself louder and I could run and fight back. Maybe too much info to put into the podcast world, but shame is the most awful feeling imposed on a victim. And these women of Gilead are all victims of whatever status they have or don't. I don't have shame and I don't have the freedom of vengeance, so I take pride in the survival.

[00:53:56] We speak up loud for ourselves, yes, but also for everyone. June speaks up, escapes and survives the very place she goes back to and becomes an even louder voice and doing it for all the handmaids. I would bet that so many women can also relate and I know many men would support and empathize because luckily not all men are monsters.

[00:54:20] While the episode was tamer than expected while moving the story forward, we still got the groundwork for the night of the handmaid's vengeance and much needed killing a bell. I can hear the cheering echoing around the world still. If this is too much and not what you want on your show, let me know and my feedback could be much less traumatic for innocent ears. Stay loud, Tam from Perth. Wow. No innocent ears here. Now.

[00:54:47] No, I appreciate you sharing that and I'm sorry that happened to you. Yeah. Absolutely. I, the vulnerability in you being willing to share that story. Um, you know, it's, it's hard to put into words. Um, it's, it's appreciated. Thank you for sharing that. And I think talking about those stories helps other victims. Yeah. For sure. Okay.

[00:55:16] Alma Contreras says, freaking Aunt Lydia showing up the last minute to the wedding had me. This episode was filmed beautifully from start to finish. I love the stark red in the bleak darkness. I especially love how June said it was also the color of rage. I don't know about everyone else, but I thought that wedding was absolutely gorgeous. Well, except for that gaudy ass cake, LOL. For some reason I expected a little more mayhem to go down, but it was a great episode nonetheless. Yeah, I did too.

[00:55:45] I thought there was going to be like a blood bath or something. I was ready for it. And when it was more subtle. Yeah. It was a cool twist. Yeah, it was good. Phyllis Tenney says, I really appreciated May's contributions, especially her thoughts on the title and on Lydia's prayer speech. Yeah. May was great. Thanks, May. That should be said. You were really good. Thanks for coming on.

[00:56:11] Dina Karatzis says, love the latest podcast episode for Exodus and really appreciated the May Day section. The balance thing was such a good reminder. I was in Somerville this weekend visiting a friend. She's 80 and a lifelong activist. I was in a major doom spiral and asked her, what's the point of protesting? It's not going to change anything. She said two things. She didn't see the point of protesting Vietnam even while she was doing it, but that she saw its effects down the road.

[00:56:40] And two, she looks for beauty and joy every single day, no matter how bleak. So I went home that night and watched Harvey with my kid, a story that is essentially about being kind and finding joy in daily life. It was great to hear that reinforced on the podcast. Thank you. And Renee's message, powerful. Yeah, that's good to both of those things. That's balance.

[00:57:05] And that's something I've always tried to keep in my own life to make sure that you spend time enjoying yourself and relaxing and resting and healing. And also don't give up the fight. And yeah, I think protests can you wonder whether they do any good. But I just think public sentiment is a huge part of how we're going to turn things around and protesting. Big protests are a big part of that.

[00:57:34] Courtney James says, episode eight left us with such a good feeling, a little too good for The Handmaid's Tale. I fear the opening scene of episode nine will dispense with those happy thoughts by showing us Rita and or many of the handmaids on the wall. No, it wasn't that bad. I agree. I would have been upset. Yeah. Lainey Brunk says, Nick is already against the resistance fighters. As far as they are concerned, he's not on their side and he's a huge impediment.

[00:58:04] I wouldn't be surprised if he is an explicit target in their plan, even if June doesn't know it. I think Nick's wife will miscarry and that will turn Nick against the resistance fighters. Taylor Stamke Frank says, just now watching Exodus as my lunch watch. Haven't gotten past the opening sequence yet. And I'm already having to comment about the brilliant use of sound.

[00:58:30] This episode in particular really creates a stark contrast between the chaos of the music and the order of the planning and dressing and the straight lines. It's just absolutely brilliant. Yeah. It's good to get some comments about just the craft of the show. Yeah. Wendy, did you want to say anything about Lainey's? We didn't really comment.

[00:58:55] I thought she was pretty close because I did think when Rose started having problems, I was like, oh my God, that's really going to happen. Yeah. Yeah. I did use the plot point though of her having issues to kind of influence Nick. That's true. Yeah. So I think, you know. It's kind of almost, yeah, it's on the right track for sure. Mm-hmm. It's without the actual. They just left it ambiguous, which I feel like they have left it Nick ambiguous for the entire series. Yeah. That's his defining characteristic.

[00:59:25] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Katie Berkey says, I love the end when they finally got through to Aunt Lydia. I felt like her hugging Janine was a breakthrough. Yeah. I guess you could. Yeah. I think you're probably right. I would say yes. Kelsey McNamara says in all caps, I told y'all they were getting through to Aunt Lydia. I knew that already. Nicole Cavallo-Edwards says, I was scared they were going to kill off Janet slash Aunt Phoebe.

[00:59:55] She, as quickly as we got her, but the Lydia turn around felt a little too quick for me. For those who know the sequel book, we know her arc, but I think we've forgotten how hardcore Gilead and evil she is, was. She plucked Janine's eye out, beat her in June, cattle prodded June, had June tied to a bed in solitary confinement while pregnant, had a female circumcision done to Emily. Yeah. Yeah. Never forgotten that.

[01:00:23] Like hung Emily's partner. Yeah. And did it all with gusto too. Yeah. Fire. Yeah. Whitney Kibler says, I was hoping something embarrassing would happen to Serene at the wedding. LOL. She's got no street smart. She doesn't get when people are being fake to her. Yeah. That's kind of a funny thing about her characteristic is she just seems like clueless socially sometimes. I agree.

[01:00:51] Heather Slarsky says, thanks for mentioning the opening music during the podcast. I couldn't find the name despite looking all over the web. When I first saw the handmaid in Serena's new house, I couldn't figure out why she was kneeling and not in fighting stance. Like I thought she was there to kill Wharton. What a surprise on your wedding night. Ooh, I like that. That would have been good. I think that's what we were all hoping for.

[01:01:18] Emily Belanger says, warns insistence that he's a good man and a good husband after he just slaughtered the women of Jezebel's and greeted his new wife with a handmaid was telling. I think Serena's met her match in earnest self-righteousness. Yeah. Yep. Tina Marie Groskrit says, well, that didn't take long for Wharton to show how truly evil he is. I was surprised to see the handmaid. I never know what they will throw at us. Crazy there are only two episodes left.

[01:01:48] I enjoyed the podcast today. I watched the episode early this morning before work so I could listen to the podcast today. Well, thanks. Anthea Tronson says, the whole this is God's will thing, when are they going to address? Says who? I mean, that's always the thing about God's will. The people who say that God is working through them. And they're in these high positions of power.

[01:02:17] That's priests and bishops and all kinds of things all throughout history. Yep. Claiming that they're the voice of God or whatever. Dre Minoni says, I like that someone had their bell rung. I dislike violence, but I have to admit, glad to see him go. I wasn't sure what the plan was going into it. Very tense. Wardenshire turned into an evil villain so quickly. How will Serena escape that?

[01:02:46] I've kind of just honestly thought something bad about him from the beginning. So it wasn't a surprise. I was just kind of waiting for the unveiling of it. I mean, I was like, oh, look, here's a high commander in Gilead. I wonder if he's a good guy. Yeah. Kylie Rosas says, my heart was racing from start to finish. I loved every second. P.S. The gas by gas.

[01:03:11] When I saw the handmaids at Wharton's residence, I literally yelled, what the fuck? Lynetta Ford says, I enjoyed the show, but have a little bit of nitpicking. Why did June and Maura need to be at the wedding? Couldn't they have met the other handmaids after the wedding? When Aunt Lydia showed up, I was irritated. She recognized June.

[01:03:36] Would have been better to have only Maura at the wedding since she's less recognizable. Is Rita also leaving since it won't be hard to figure out why everyone who ate cake slept like a rock? Less a nitpick and just a question about Rita's safety. Did Belle eat any cake? He seemed pretty lucid. I don't think Belle eats cake. It's not the type of dessert he's looking into.

[01:04:04] Rita's plan was to join the rebellion, right? After that. Yeah. Which she did. Yeah. Right? And I think June needed to be there to kill Belle amongst probably other things. Yeah, to get Janine. Like, it was about Janine, too. And also, it's her show. Yeah. Yeah. Cam Hooks Cox says, I was surprised Wharton let her leave. Perhaps he thinks she has nowhere to run. Yeah, what was his plan there? Yeah.

[01:04:33] I was surprised he left her leave. Yeah. But then when he met her the next day, when Naomi called him over, he was trying to reconcile and show a little bit of, I'm sorry. Yeah. After everything's over with, that's what I kind of chalked it up to is like his ego. Like, he figures he can just persuade her to his side. Right. And also, it's like, where's she going to go? She has no power anymore. Right.

[01:05:02] At least that's probably what he thought. He was still calling her my love. Melissa Chi says, holy shit, the look on Serena's face when she saw the handmaid realized she wasn't above it all. Also, what the fuck, Lydia? Shut the fuck up. Yeah. Well said. Short and sweet. So that brings us to the end of the episode eight feedback. We are moving on to episode nine, which is execution.

[01:05:32] Yeah. Amber Lovo says, first thought after finishing was no. The whole episode kept me on my toes. It wasn't predictable at all, except June escaping the noose. Just barely. I knew Nick wouldn't make it to the end, and I was also done with him and his power hungry betrayals. But I was still so sad when that plane exploded. But Lawrence, no, no, no. Why?

[01:06:01] Again, I knew he probably wouldn't make it to the end, but still it hurt me. That final scene had me ugly crying. Where did Janine end up? I don't think we saw her after the gallows. Can't believe there's only one more episode left. My heart. Way to go to the writers and everyone involved. This episode was absolutely outstanding. Lizzie is a great director. Next episode is going to be something else. This was a damn good episode. It really was.

[01:06:30] This was probably my favorite episode of the season. Yeah. Yeah. There was a lot in it. Oh, yeah. And there's a lot to be said for penultimate episodes in TV series. Like every season having a lot of meat and stuff to talk about and a lot happening. And this was another instance of that. Yeah. This was really the climax kind of of the whole series. Yeah. And the final episode felt a bit more like an epilogue, which I enjoyed.

[01:06:58] But yeah, this was really where it all hit. Yeah. I like that you said that, Jason. You're the first person that said that to me, that it was like an epilogue. And I've talked. I've used that with a few people that have been questioning. And I think they it makes a lot of sense. I think that might change their perspective. And if we hadn't had all those little, you know, tie ups, I think we would have been upset about it. Like, yeah. So. Yeah.

[01:07:27] Sometimes that's what needs to happen. And it's OK. Yeah. Yeah. Barbara Jacobson says, I keep seeing hearing complaints about the ending of episode nine saying June is a horrible person. She could have stopped Nick from getting on the plane and she effectively murdered him by staying quiet and letting him board the plane. But isn't it true that everyone on that plane believed she caused the rebellion and they

[01:07:50] were literally going to D.C. to formulate a response and Rose told Nick to, quote, end her. Mm hmm. So doesn't that mean she chose to save her own life over his literal self-defense? She didn't murder the people on the plane any more than Nick murdered the women at Jezebel's. All I see is a plane full of Nazis. Isn't it Nick who at some point quoted, for whatever a man sows, so shall he reap? Did Nick deserve to die?

[01:08:19] That's not for me to decide. But he made the choice to join those other commanders to end her. He sowed. He reaped. Well said, Barbara Jacobson. What we didn't know is Nick had a plan when he got to D.C. He was going to pull out his machine gun and kill all those commanders. Uh-huh. So he's actually a good guy. He's the hero. So what? It was going to be like Die Hard in some weird way. Okay. All right.

[01:08:47] Laney Brunk said, I went back and read through the plot of the season three finale, remembering Lawrence reading to all the children before they smuggled them out of Gilead. I totally forgot about that. But more importantly, when June asked Lawrence to come with them on the plane and he says that Eleanor would have wanted him to stay and clean up his own mess. Oh, yeah. What a great guy. Yeah. Yep. Tam from Perth says, hello, fellow resistors.

[01:09:14] I, as you probably have figured out, love this show and the stories that make it so incredible and alluring. So I don't like to say I hated this episode. My first viewing, I waited a whole day thinking about it before watching a second time. It felt predictable and divided into right up to ready for takeoff. Voice pulled me back into reality with June's face lighting up, confirming the father of her child is dead. And the plan worked.

[01:09:43] I guess seeing as Nick is gone, the new division between viewers will be either yay, Taylor, or for fuck's sake, Taylor. Don't mess with Swifties or June's army while they are in their vengeance era. We could have predicted easily that Serena would run to the Lawrence house and that Rose would go into labor to save Joseph and Nick seeing June with a loose noose. I wasn't too worried about Gilead's precedent for mass hangings.

[01:10:12] June has already survived one and seen many. This isn't how she goes out, not with a prayer speech like that, and definitely not next to Aunt Lydia. Even in extreme disruption and mass assassination of commanders, Gilead keeps its aesthetic with cages bathed in warm light and cavernous rooms. There's a woman in shackles alone in a fancy cage, but it's pretty.

[01:10:39] And at the end of Familiar Bridge, we've seen many times before, gallows constructed with thought. Two trucks on either side framing the stage and a sea of econoworkers lining the road. It's visual stimulation to accept and distract from the harsh reality of why they are there. So it's pretty. At the end of this story, we are so familiar with Gilead almost as a character itself.

[01:11:05] Elizabeth Moss directs this so well because she knows Gilead from all angles and heights. I am grateful the writers gave Joseph acceptance at the end. Softening so much, he called Angela his child and gave Naomi in a roundabout way permission to read to her. It was a sweet goodbye and a death deserved. We will miss his sarcasm and wit. I wonder what he was thinking as he paused before stepping on the plane.

[01:11:34] Outsmarted by his own creation? Probably Eleanor, though. How will those of us who watch this and the last of us cope next week? Is there an aftermath group for that? There is. There is. Yes. Parasocial virtual hugs all around and bring your own booze if needed. Tam from Perth. And Tam joined our group. So I'm going to guess that's her. Yes. This is how we cope, Tam. Yeah. Link in the show notes, people. Yep.

[01:12:04] And Tam, message me because I can talk about this show endlessly. I feel like sometimes we should have a Zoom call for the Mayday group just to talk about the show with everyone. It's not a bad idea. It's not a bad idea. I think that people might be interested in just letting it all out and talking about it more. Sometimes you have to.

[01:12:28] When Lawrence was stepping on the plane, I think his last thought when he was looking over at June and put his hand on his heart, my feeling was, you know, this is the right thing to do. And this is what I, this is how I can redeem myself for all the guilt I'm feeling. Like, I don't know. Who knows what the hell he was thinking. But. No, I agree with you. It seemed like that was the sentiment. Also, I do think he probably was thinking about Eleanor. Yeah.

[01:12:57] Like, watching him, making her proud of what he did. Yeah. Because that was the love of his life. Like, Lawrence never made, I mean, he wanted nothing to do with handmaids. He, Eleanor was his world. That's what he wanted. And when he lost her, that was such a big deal. I'll never get the scene of him standing at the plane entrance and putting his hand on his heart.

[01:13:26] Like, that is something I will take with me from this series. Mm-hmm. Like, as one of those key things. Because it, it's, you know, it's when you realize it's really happening and he's going to die. And despite him. You're kind of going, uh-oh, how's he going to get out of this? Come on, come on. He's not. Like, oh. And I kind of had resigned myself to people dying in the last couple episodes. So, when the plane exploded, it was really just like, oh.

[01:13:56] And my heart was conflicted about, okay, yes, this was fantastic. It's exactly what needed to happen. And, wow, we're letting go of such an amazing character. Yeah. It's a lot. I was just thinking about Laura Lee. Laura Lee. Yeah. Were there any teddy bears around? I didn't even think about that. But I think him and June had a complicated relationship, but they cared about each other.

[01:14:25] They respected each other. And that was his farewell to her as well. Yeah. Probably the last scene he filmed in the whole series. I feel like you could tell throughout when the last scenes different characters were having with. Because sometimes they shoot things out of order. But you could tell based on the emotion in the characters, like in the actors' faces, that that was the end.

[01:14:53] Because there's just even more emotion than even we're used to seeing. Yep. So Vandy Martin says, I have heard much about pro-Nick and how he had chances to leave Gilead. But I have a slightly different view of his character. Here goes. Nick is a fence sitter. He sits on the fence and looks at both sides of every situation and picks the side that is best for Nick. This does not make him evil, but it does make him questionable.

[01:15:21] In the many moments he has risked himself for June, i.e. the moment he's allowed safe passage for baby Nicole to leave. Or he allowed safe passage for baby Nicole to leave. Or when he killed the guardians to save June's husband. Or when he got the letters at Jezebel's. He was on the side of, I have deep feelings for June and this will keep her tethered to me. So it was really for him. When he goes to June and asks her to go to Paris with all the papers ready to flee Gilead, that was Nick wanting what Nick wanted.

[01:15:50] It was not for the Americas or Gilead. He gave up Jezebel's because he was on the side of the fence that would allow him freedom. And in that freedom, he could whisk away with June. An object of his affection. He can't pick a side. And when June has gone too far and he knows that she feels betrayed by him, he sits on the fence until Rose brings him to heel. When Rose awakens and glad he is by her side, Nick says, Where else would I be? She responds with, There have been reports.

[01:16:20] Other reports about Nick with June and Paris? Or the current outbreak of rebellion? If he leaves Gilead, will he be right back to where he started from in life? No respect. No good job. Not many choices. Poor and very much alone. He knows he is not a match for June in education, family, socioeconomics. The only way they could be together is under Gilead's thumb. They are connected under a regime of abuse and that's not a real connection on equal footing.

[01:16:50] He has the upper hand in power where June does not. If given pre-Gilead, they would never have been bonded as deeply or intimately. Nick has said many times he does things for June, not for the May Day cause, not for Gilead. But if he can't have June, then he sits on the other side of the fence where it is more preferable for himself in Gilead. We know that pre-Gilead Nick had few options.

[01:17:18] He had issues with women, his mother abandoning him and his anger in low-level jobs he is forced to take, season one. He is recruited by a man who sees his vulnerability and male ego being crushed by current society as well as his desire to be more. But Nick was in a system that he was not capable of navigating.

[01:17:38] Gilead gives him all the resources to navigate his anger via good military attacks and hold contempt over women in his smoldering, good looks, and powerful position for simply being a male. This new era of Gilead is the first taste of power, respect, and success for Nick, who had none of this prior to Gilead. All of Nick's mentors are encouraging Nick to believe that it was liberalism that withheld his rightful place in society as a man.

[01:18:08] That he loved June is not enough to step back into a role less than what he has in Gilead. When he meets June, and June is desperate for human kindness in her new existence, he gets to be a hero in her world filled with only abuse. He abuses her too, but we just don't see it that way because it's not to the same gravity of what she's going through.

[01:18:33] He abuses her by never saying what is happening is wrong, never telling her it is not her fault. He even lets her know he is one of them, and that June keeps coming back for more. Gilead, with all the time she had to get away, is simply the cycle of abuse on repeat in the repeated returns. We think it's solely for Hannah, but let's also look at that.

[01:18:58] Nick could have helped get Hannah out, could have given the Americans information about where she was, but he knew that once Hannah was out, why would June have anything to do with him? This again is Nick doing what's best for what Nick wants. Hannah was bait to bring June back to him at high risks. And has anyone considered June could have worked on getting Hannah out without Nick? Maybe Mayday could have tracked Emily to have Emily help get Hannah out. She was far more trustworthy.

[01:19:29] That is quite honest. I agree with a lot of that. Breakdown of Nick that I have never read anything quite like that. I don't, yeah, I don't know if I would believe that Nick purposefully didn't do all he could to get Hannah out just because he wanted to keep June on the line, maybe subconsciously more, but I don't know.

[01:19:57] Maybe he actually thought about it. I do think it's evidence that Nick wanted June. Nick didn't necessarily want what June wanted or what was best for June or to make June happy. Oh yeah. All this stuff is that Nick is a fence hitter and just does what's best for him. I totally agree with all that, but I just don't know if I agree that he like purposefully did less than he could have

[01:20:23] just because he knew that if he did save Hannah for June, that then she might not be in his life anymore. Maybe though. That's, that's something. I can understand how people judge him harshly. Yeah, for sure. Clearly. Kel Freeman says, the only thing I'll say is that June did 100% the right thing. Choosing a boy over the fate of women as a whole was the right move. What? I think she means not choosing.

[01:20:52] Not choosing a boy over the fate of women as a whole was the right move. Ship them all you want, but she ultimately chose the women, the girls and her Hannah. Yeah. I think. A hundred. Yeah. And, and, you know, if they just hadn't had that whole thing about her feeling betrayed by Nick and breaking up with him, I think she would have saved him. She would have said, Hey, Nick. Nope. I don't believe that.

[01:21:21] Not for a hot minute. I feel like. I was reading an article about it that seemed to suggest that, but I didn't put it in the news. I feel like June had made these decisions or screwed, almost screwed things up a bunch of times. Like wanting Janine to leave with them from Jezebel's instead of staying there and helping get the girls ready to all leave.

[01:21:46] Like June was known for trying to make or change plans at the last minute. This was one time that she shown that some growth and didn't do that. She knew what the stakes were. Yeah. The stakes were way too high. She had to let it go. Yeah. All right. Renee Goldman Bates says,

[01:22:13] I knew there was a lot of complaints about the unrealistic scenarios in The Handmaid's Tale, but keep in mind, there are so many stories in history of people who shouldn't have survived what they went through. I have ancestors who did not survive the Holocaust, but others that did. Schindler's List is a whole story about people who the Nazis meant to murder or would have if they found out what they were doing.

[01:22:38] There are stories of folks that were almost shot or killed, but deemed useful and survived. There are stories of people dressing in disguise as the opposite sex, whatever they could do. So I say just view it as a story of a woman who defied everything and made it way further than what we would imagine is possible, and enjoy the incredible storytelling that is The Handmaid's Tale. Oh, thank you, Renee. That's so true. Yeah.

[01:23:09] All right. We have a voicemail from Kevin Lee. Hey, guys. This is Kevin, one of your newer listeners. I wrote in after one of the earlier episodes. But just a couple quick thoughts on episode nine, as my wife and I just watched it tonight. Credit to the writers and the actresses.

[01:23:32] The actors for opting to show the power of persuasion and tempered forgiveness in conjunction with the, I'll call it, strategic deployment of violence. June used the former when she was dealing with Aunt Lydia and Serena. She recognized that the circumstances and individuals she was dealing with required a more deft touch.

[01:24:00] She, being June, tailored her revolutionary sensibilities to her audience. And she did something similar with Commander Wharton, albeit in a failed attempt to appeal to his faith. Then, when the time came, she and the others unleashed righteous violence in open combat at her attempted murder.

[01:24:27] The writers, I think they struck a very delicate balance between showing us tactful diplomacy and meeting power with power. Each of those are necessary when it comes to achieving large-scale geopolitical goals. Particularly when it comes to trying to reclaim your country from a totalitarian regime.

[01:24:53] All that aside, I thought Commander Lawrence had the perfect death. I thought June would be our so-called Moses, given that episode title of Exodus a couple episodes ago. But, turns out, it was Josh from the West Wing instead. He did not get to see the fruits of his labor.

[01:25:19] The cherry on top of all that was that tortured hesitation that Nick showed on the steps to the plane. For a moment, I thought he might turn back. But instead, he boarded. He embraced his fate. And as soon as he was on board, whatever hesitation he had gave way to arrogant righteousness. Just a spectacular conclusion to those two arcs.

[01:25:47] I think that they were both very earned, given the entirety of the series. And what we saw over the last season or two with those two characters. And then when you combine that with the emotional agony that June suffered from losing not just Lawrence, her wily semi-ally, but her other true love, quote-unquote Nick.

[01:26:15] For a moment, I was worried that she was going to blow the entire op and try to call out to him or something. But credit to June for, I guess, focusing on the greater good. And letting Nick live with the consequences of his choices. You guys are doing great. I'm excited to hear what you guys have to say after the finale. I can't wait to see it. And, yeah.

[01:26:44] Talk to you guys soon. Thanks, Kevin. Enjoyed that. Yeah, you should call in to some more stuff. Yeah. Well said. So, Whitney Kipler says, Not getting anything else about Nick is frustrating. In the book, we know absolutely nothing about most of the characters. The show has done an amazing world. Such. The show has done such amazing world building. But there are still so many questions. I know.

[01:27:13] Because Wendy and I still kind of wanted, like, this episode to find out more about Nick. And we didn't get it. But we're letting it go. We're going to let it go. I was reading that Bruce Miller had said maybe a couple seasons ago that maybe in the final season we might get some flashbacks. But only if there was enough time. So, I guess there wasn't enough time. Yeah. I feel like there might have been enough time. Because some of the episodes of the season were a little bit short to me.

[01:27:42] But I am going to say, I think their lack of doing that is why people are so polarized. On Nick's motivations. Because they didn't give it to us. Yeah. And my point is always, we've seen enough. We know enough. It doesn't matter. Well, I think it was enough for the three of us. Yeah. Right. Other people disagree. It was enough for me. Okay. Taylor Stampke Frank says, the last long hold on June and her reaction to the light show was superbly done.

[01:28:12] Trying really hard not to give spoilers here. But that was a gripping image. It felt like a much needed release for June. Kiva Sher says, I thought it was amazing. One of the best episodes this season for sure. Such poetic justice having Nick and Lawrence there. And for June to witness it alone. Serena and Lydia also helping carry some of the burden of the resistance at the end was great too.

[01:28:38] So Ben Stone says, glad to hear you guys are a bit frustrated with how much of a leap you have to take to believe some of the story arc in this episode. It's a bit of a war nerd. I wondered where the American jets are based. I doubt Canada would be happy for airstrikes on Gilead from jets based in their own territory. I don't really know a map of the US in this story, but I assume other American territories are a fair distance from Boston.

[01:29:07] Isn't it just the West Coast, Alaska and Hawaii? I don't even know about the West Coast. Yeah, I think it's Alaska and Hawaii and something on the West Coast, but I don't have a map in front of me. Because there's only two stars on the map until now. Until Boston, yeah. Yeah. It was good to see Aunt Lydia finally cross the line and get past her crisis of conscience.

[01:29:30] I think it's easy to assume it's easy for her to acknowledge what is right and wrong and act on it, but I'm sure there's a history of indoctrination, not to mention the impending danger to your own life if you actually take action. It was an episode where so many characters take the heroic leap to act against their own welfare and do what's right. Aunt Lydia, Lawrence, and Serena, although I think she always has her own self-interest first.

[01:29:57] At the same time, Wharton and dickhead Nick double down on the worst sides of themselves and choose self-interest and power over good. Eat a dick, Nick. Tell us how you really feel, Ben. Don't let the cabin door hit you on your way down. Even Rose shows how fucked up her attitude is. That Wharton family is one not to marry into. Eat a dick, Nick.

[01:30:22] I also liked Aunt Phoebe being a CIA agent and can Rita look any more hotter in each episode. Despite having to suspend the leave for quite a few parts of this episode, I still enjoyed the payoff. In all honesty, I wouldn't have blamed the writers if June had died. I think the episode in the series and could have used the gravitas of her death to bring on the downfall of Gilead or at least freeing Boston from its control.

[01:30:53] I'm glad she didn't die. She needs more time. More time. We need more June time. Yep. But thank you, Ben. That was funny. Sarah Puhala says, Just before jumping in with both feet, I had this episode described to me as a rollercoaster ride and I can concede to that idea. While the, quote, big dips and loops I anticipated to be the things to throw me, it was really more the unexpected swerves and amazingly surprising views that did it the most.

[01:31:20] The sky literally lit up before our eyes. Lawrence, oh Lawrence, I tip my hat to your final act. As a captain does, you went down with your ship. I suspected this kind of outcome and I think you knew all along your end might come to this. May you and Eleanor find one another on the other side. Nick, conflicted until the very end. I honestly felt like I was processing those final moments right alongside June and frankly still kind of processing it post episode. I get that too.

[01:31:51] Aunt Lydia, finally, another moment I shed some tears. Without spoiling much regarding the testaments, I just have to say this was a piece of the reckoning I was so eagerly awaiting for and I'm so glad it finally showed up. Paving the way, writers, I see you. Thank you. Serena, another delicate journey of conflict with a big side of girl, wake up and get your life together. At least now, maybe for the sake of Noah, if nothing else, we got a small bit of that pressure released from her journey.

[01:32:20] We'll see what the final hurrahs ultimately give us though. Naomi, you acknowledged and took that book with you. The smallest of victories regarding your corner perhaps? Eh? June, yeah. June, Janine, Moira, Rita, Ava, Luke. All the fellow resistors. I could go on and on, but with the final moments yet to come, I will wait with bated breath for the final gifts The Handmaid's Tale will unwrap.

[01:32:44] So many bravos to each and every actor, writer, and member of the production team for the tremendous work put into this show. Excited to listen to the podcast now and finish out strong. I wonder if she thought it was strong, hopefully. Sad to note it's coming to an end, but looking forward to the next era of storytelling we will get with the Testaments. Praise be. Do not worry, June. We will not let them grind us down. That was great. That's great.

[01:33:13] Tina Marie Groskritz says, Wow, I just finished watching the episode. I am sad Lawrence didn't make it. I really liked him and his sarcastic humor. I'm happy for Noah that he has his mom. It's great that we got the other commanders along with Nick. Well, Rose inadvertently had her husband killed. LOL. LOL. This show never fails to surprise me. I didn't think of it that way, but now I do. Yeah. Maria Lawson says,

[01:33:43] Nick and Lawrence were both complicated characters, but when it comes down to it, Nick's final choice confirmed for me that Nick was always a bad guy who occasionally did good things when it served his own self-interest. While Lawrence's sacrifice showed me he was a good man who had made a lot of bad choices in the name of what he thought was right at the time. Daily, we as a country are being faced with shocking and deplorable actions perpetrated by those in power. June gave us a good reminder.

[01:34:13] Don't let the bastards grind you down. I mean, just like with Nick, really, it would be interesting to see some of the early days with Lawrence, because he's always seems like he's an architect of Gilead more than Nick ever was. Nick may have been part of like the fighting and everything, but it seemed like Lawrence was more of an architect, and that just really doesn't fit with his character,

[01:34:39] but it seems like he must have had a crisis of conscience at some point before we ever even met him, you know, and started realizing, oh, shit, what did I do? I gotta try to help. Therese Breeze says, did anyone else have mixed feelings about the end of the gallows scene when the American fighter jet swooped in to join the attack? At first, I was cheering, because in the show, that is, of course, a very satisfying moment. But at the same time, I couldn't help watching it

[01:35:09] and thinking about what's happening in our country right now and feeling sad and wistful. Like, hey, that's supposed to be America in real life, too. We should be the good guys, but we're not right now. Wondering if anyone else felt the same during that scene. I think maybe a little voice in the back of my head was saying that, but I wasn't fully conscious of it. But reading your message here is making you feel it. And I'm like, oh, my God, you're so right. Yeah. Christina Cantana says,

[01:35:37] I will never recover from this episode. I knew the second Wharton showed up that Lawrence had a choice to make, and when he paused getting on the plane, I said out loud, he's not going to get off the plane, and the tears started. Nick showing up wasn't a surprise, but I wasn't sad about him. I feel that he was always a soldier for Gilead, but when he was around June, his humanity peeked through. Unfortunately, two or so episodes ago,

[01:36:06] when he betrayed her, I was done. And so was his character arc. He was never going to change. The smug look on his face when he sat down next to Lawrence and how he delivered his lines showed me he had made his choice. Only when Lawrence said that someone else will have to carry out his plans did Nick finally understand, or at least begin to, that his time was over. I was pleased that he didn't try and stop it, but rather accepted fate.

[01:36:34] Overall, I still have not recovered from Lawrence's death and his choice to actually do something meaningful when he had the chance. I probably never will. This is one of those fictional deaths that will stay with me forever. Agree. I don't think Nick realized. I think when Lawrence said that, he thought Lawrence was giving up on his idea to make things better. Yeah. I think so, too. I don't think he had any clue. No. I don't think he knew. And I agree with her.

[01:37:03] I think Lawrence's death is going to stay with me. Yeah. I think it's going to be one of those things when you put lists together in your head of, what are the most poignant deaths in TV series? That's going to be one. It just has the best character arc. Yeah. It really does. It also really makes me want someone to make a show and write a character for Bradley Whitford that's just like Lawrence and stick him in it. Yes. Just so he can get that good writing and his great acting. I can't wait to see what he does next. He's so good.

[01:37:32] I think this, his character was so needed on this show because there's so much darkness and he brought these comic relief moments that sometimes were subtle and sometimes weren't that gave you just some little breathing time that it was needed to get through the seriousness of things. I agree. Deborah Barry Fan Nero says, some fantastic quotes.

[01:38:01] It was never about piety. It was about power. I want to see the end of Gilead. Love seeing the U.S. planes and come in and bomb Gilead. The sound of freedom. True. Pretty cool. Priscilla Sharp says, damn, that was a great intense episode. I cried a lot during this episode, especially during the hanging scene. The music with the scenes made for a very empathic episode. But I think what made me cry more

[01:38:30] was thinking of how that mini battle in this episode is the direction our country's headed for. Yeah, I hope not. I don't want to see that. Yeah, I can see that though. Taylor Stampke Frank, I just watched the behind the episode featurette and whereas I was only anxious in my initial watching, this time I flat out lost all composure and was sobbing. Babs Mountjoy says,

[01:38:59] not being sure about the structure of Gilead government, I wondered about the constant focus on the Boston commanders and the reference to the main bosses being in D.C. Aren't there other locations with a strong center of Gilead rule? Taking out this one self-important cluster won't sincerely damage the government in charge, will it? I mean, sure, kudos for striking this blow, but won't another snake head rise up to replace the one they cut off? I think they cut a lot of heads off.

[01:39:27] I think they cut off the collective heads of Boston and freed it from Gilead, which gives them one less stronghold. Well, yeah. We didn't know what the total impact would be until the finale, so Babson, you know, when she wrote this, but it's meant to show that a big battle was won, but not the war. But it's an important one probably. We'll see. I don't know. But, I mean, I'm just, you know,

[01:39:55] you can't, you don't always win it all at once, but when you get a big victory like this, it can give momentum and inspiration and everything like that. They have to be running out of commanders. Yeah. Well, they said in the finale they promoted a bunch. Because McKenzie was promoted and moving to DC. I mean, there's literally millions of men. Yeah. Christina Boyd Taylor says, they fucking nailed it, in my opinion.

[01:40:26] Great. Heather Slarsky says, With the title of this episode, I was fully embracing for June's death when she walked out onto the gallows. It was so good to hear her and Lydia give it to them. About the ending, it took me some time to formulate how I felt. I think Lawrence's sacrifice was a very fitting hero's ending. He was not always a good guy exactly, but tried to thwart the Gilead system whenever he could and do right by Eleanor. Nick. Nick.

[01:40:56] Looking back, we really never got evidence that he was a good guy. But because he loved June and did so much to help her, he tricked us. He commanded soldiers in Chicago. He sat on the council. And he betrayed May Day and the women at Jezebel's, but didn't get June in trouble directly. I think the show was telling us directly, Nick is not a good guy. When he says his snarky line to Lawrence about being with the winners,

[01:41:24] I would have liked more backstory about how Nick was involved with the rise of Gilead. I'm interested to see if anybody, I'm interested to see if anyone survived that explosion. I do not believe anyone did. Unless you look at like AI pictures of Lawrence parachuting out of the plane, which I thought was pretty funny. Yeah. When that plane exploded, I know there was no question in my mind that everyone on it died. Like it. Yeah. Lawrence parachuted out, landed in Hawaii,

[01:41:55] disguised his identity, and he's doing just fine. Okay. Is he trying to get Naomi back? Or he's like, nah, whatever. I don't think so. No. Barbie Ann says, a great episode. Sad to lose Commander Lawrence. I'll miss his deadpan humor, but he had a good death. I was never a Nick enthusiast, but even I was surprised at the nothing less I felt. When he boarded the plane. Then when he referred to Gilead as the winning team, I was like, bye.

[01:42:26] So proud of Luke, Rita, and the rest of the Maydayers. And I even cheered on Aunt Lydia. With all that's going on in this country, I really needed this episode. Keep fighting. Never, ever let them grind you down. I mean, I forget if I said this on the podcast and I probably should not say it, but hey, we're honest here. When I saw Nick show up, I was like, yes, please, please, please. So that's a little bit more than nothing.

[01:42:56] Yeah. It's kind of in the other, the other direction. Anyway, Nicole Cavallo Edwards says, Rambo, Rita, CIA, Janet slash Phoebe slash Ava and Luke Lawrence. I'm ambivalent about Nick. I never cared for him much. So whatevs don't come for me. I won't plot wise. I was surprised they went there though. Me too. Well, was I, I don't know. Yeah, I guess I kind of was there go all the love triangle fan girls. Now,

[01:43:24] what Rose was pretty Ivanka ask in her commanding Nick to go to DC to quote, end her in the sense that I guess the apple doesn't fall far from the tree. And here we thought she was a cool girl with Nick's on off situation ship. Yeah. Yeah. She was different than we thought Lawrence was my favorite bad commander. So I was sad to see he sacrificed himself, but I think he felt he didn't deserve to survive any more than his co Nazis. And he's probably right.

[01:43:52] He fell so hard and fast for a little Angela though. We had hints of it prior, but it was so sweet to see it plainly in this episode. Yeah. Poor thing is going to be ruined by Naomi anyway. Now. No, she's not now that she won't have him in her corner. Now, Serena came through again. I half expect her to backslide into Gilead brain. Like she usually does though. She has been inconsistently consistent lately in her defense of handmaids. So maybe she's getting there.

[01:44:19] I'm confused on how Lydia goes on to be testaments. TT Lydia through though, and they've confirmed her for the series. So it's not a story deviation. Seems like she outed herself quite a bit there. So how will they trust her after that? That's what I want to know. So an aside is the environment all cleaned up now. They never seem to threaten anyone with the colonies these days. It's either death or nothing. I don't think it is, but I don't know.

[01:44:47] I think Lydia gets away with it because all the people that now are dead. They don't keep good records. That's right. Yeah. Tracy Hague says it has been a terrible final season. It's like, I am watching a completely different show and Nick deserves so much better. Okay. Monica McGuire says, I think Nick was a nothing before. Like he said,

[01:45:14] and the power and prestige that came with being a commander was stronger than him or his love for June. The ending was heartbreaking, but necessary. Michelle Keefe says, I don't feel bad about Nick. His decision to get on the plane showed where his loyalties lied. And for Lawrence, he had to do it. Sadly, Gilead was his fault. I felt peace after watching this episode. Was Lawrence's mission supposed to be a suicide mission or did something go wrong? Something went wrong.

[01:45:42] He was supposed to get there early and get the suitcase on the plane and leave. But the other commander showed up early too. Yeah. Yeah. He had to pivot. I did. I didn't really know if it was going to work. Yeah. I didn't know what was going to happen. Christy Zavachin says, I don't feel bad about it, Nick. Not only did he choose Gilead when he got on the plane, but he also chose Rose and their son over June and their daughter when he was at the hospital,

[01:46:12] instead of trying to stop June from being hung. True. Christy Baseman says, What struck me about this episode is that it was about ultimate choices. Once Lawrence realized that he had to either board that plane with the bomb and die with the others, what was his ultimate choice going to be? He chose to destroy Gilead and save everybody else. When he looked back at June and put his hand over his heart, I cried. Same. Me too. He was not the only,

[01:46:42] he was not only giving up his own life, but this beautiful blossoming, blossoming relationship. He had been growing with his adopted daughter, Charlotte, Janine's daughter. He told her that he loved her when they left the house. What a great dad. Joseph was shaping up to be. Likewise with June. She's been playing both sides with Nick and Luke for a long time. Nick has been playing both sides with June and his role as a Gilead commander. Ultimately, Nick has chosen power and the winning side,

[01:47:10] and whether that's simply due to his bitterness over losing June is immaterial in my mind. He made his choice knowing full well that Gilead is evil and all it entails. His actions caused the slaughter of all those women trapped at Jezebel's, and yet he decides to lean into it. In another time, I could see June blowing up the whole plan to save Nick's life, but at this point, she has to make a crucial choice. Save everybody from Gilead or save Nick.

[01:47:39] She puts her feelings aside. Love is hard to just shake off, and he is, after all, her daughter's father, and she finally chooses to sacrifice her own feelings for the greater good. This is the choice Nick couldn't or wouldn't make. He capitulated and went all in with Gilead to save himself, and ultimately brought about his own death in doing so. I wonder if in the series finale, Janine will finally get Charlotte's Angela back.

[01:48:09] This poor kid has to be seriously confused with all the parent swapping she's been through, but I'd hate to see her stay with Naomi, who just can't seem to be bothered with her, and only views her as a symbolic trophy. I haven't read the Testaments yet, but I doubt Luke and June will get Hannah back if she's to play any role at all in the Testaments, and it'll be interesting to see where Serena lies at the end of it all. One gripe. June was hung by her neck.

[01:48:37] She should have had some serious redness bruising on her neck afterward, but she just shook it all off, shake it off, like nothing happened. It made it hit a bit hard to suspend disbelief. Did she have her hand, because I know she had her hands in there while she was screaming, but when they hoisted her up, were they still there? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. That's why she didn't have her neck broke. Yeah. Yeah. Well,

[01:49:07] I don't know if your neck would be broken anyway. It seems like your neck gets broken. This is really morbid to talk about, but during a hanging when they drop the floor out and there's a snap, like a fall and then a snap, but when they just hoist you up, but even so, or maybe it would break. I don't know, but I feel like she had her hands in there still, and you'd still think there might be some marks on the back of her neck, but maybe not on the front. I don't know. I saw a few other people talk about that, so I thought I'd mention it. Yeah.

[01:49:37] Megan O'Connell says, I'm not okay with Nick. I know a few of you did not see him as a good guy, but in the beginning and when they formed their relationship slash trauma, he was good to her. He did love her and she did love him. It was devastating to see her face when Nick is at the plane entrance and trying to decide if this is really what he wants to do. Ultimately, he did make his decision, but like on the pod, that could have just been in the moment. He didn't know it was his life he was giving up. Well, yeah, I mean, that's the point. If he knew it was his life,

[01:50:05] then the decision wouldn't have been, it would have been like, I'm not going to give up my life. It would, you know what I mean? Not like I'm going to choose Gilead. You need to find out what he's going to decide when he doesn't know it's going to lead to his death. That's what I'm trying to say. Right. The passion between Nick and June was more visceral, visceral in my opinion, than with Luke. I kind of agree with that most of the time. I'm so sad slash mad. He chose Gilead in the end. It was sad for Lawrence too,

[01:50:34] but I think it was a great moment and needed. I sobbed when he put his hand on his heart and looked at June. It would have been nice to see him in the end, but he, in the end knew he could make a difference and made the right choice. Yep. Amma Contreras says, first off, this episode was so good. It was what we've been waiting for, for too long. There was a couple of things that bugged me a bit, but I suspended my disbelief and just enjoyed it.

[01:51:03] I was completely blown away by Eva just beasting out. Yes. It was such a great little surprise. Okay. That last scene had my jaw completely dropped and I was left utterly speeches, speechless. RIP Joseph and Nick. For some reason, I was not ready to lose Nick or Joseph for one brief second. I thought June was going to stop Nick from going on that plane, but that would have foiled the whole plan. Anyway,

[01:51:32] this episode was full of unexpected stuff and I look forward to hearing how everyone else felt. Yeah. I think we, you sort of were meant to wonder if she was going to speak up. Yeah. The way that was shot to the back and forth. Yeah. Kimberly Joseph says about June, I was so worried, worried she was going to yell out Nick's name and ruin everything. The ending was so bittersweet. Kimberly Joseph is our,

[01:52:02] uh, 1000th person to join the podcast to go Facebook group. Yeah. So I wrote her a haiku. Uh, Danielle Dement Joe says, Ava was awesome. When she shot a couple of guardians with expertise, I exclaimed to my husband, damn girl. She, she was a military cop or something. CIA, right? One criticism is lovely as it always is to see Darcy Carden. I would have liked to have been pleasantly surprised to have an established

[01:52:31] character play that role, but it's all good. Oh, like some aunt that we already had seen, but it turns out she's a CIA agent. Yeah. Elizabeth Schmoopy says on the one hand, the Nick question is answered and there is now room for Luke. If he can compete with the memory, but Lawrence, who will I truly love now? When I worked with Ann Dowd,

[01:53:00] we were sitting on stage waiting in to be called. I looked at her and she said, ask me anything. I went dumb. I thought I had a second chance with Yvonne Strahovski, but she never looked at me. I was content to just get a high out of her. If, if I ever get the chance with Elizabeth Moss, there will be a lengthy interrogation on Matthews. Mad men and head mates. Who am I kidding? I'm just a podcaster that can't ask questions. Oh,

[01:53:30] I think I would have, unless I'm prepared. Yeah. Yeah. It's hard to think on the spot. You get starstruck too. You're just so, you know, like Ann Dowd is so amazing. Yeah. Jared. Jared Aletra says, a little late watching episode nine, but my hot take is that Nick knew something was going to happen on the plane and got on knowing he was going to die. He did it trying to rid himself of all the guilt he's been keeping in. And that's why he paused on getting on. He knew it was over.

[01:54:00] Well, why? When he saw Lawrence with the briefcase, he asked him if he was with the winners as in the Mayday resistance. Well, that's why. Yeah, I don't. Hmm. That's why when he saw Lawrence with the briefcase, he asked him if he was with the winners as in the Mayday resistance. That's why he asked you if June was safe. So he at least knew she was all right before he died. I'm guessing he knew from the original Mayday plan that June told him as well as just assuming that they were going to do something,

[01:54:29] knowing all the commanders were going to be together in a plane. I mean, potentially maybe. No, I mean, but I don't know. No, I mean, for one thing, Jared, if you go read interviews with the showrunners and the actor, they speak about it as if Nick made his choice, you know, that to be with Gilead, to stay loyal to Gilead. So it's just, it's just like it looked. Mark Prince says,

[01:54:56] I've been enjoying the show breakdown in the connection today's world. Episode nine execution really delivered. Love seeing badass Rita making her impact. The commander's demise was well done, especially showing the explanation,

[01:55:38] explosion from June's eyes. Probably the children of Gilead. June is a folk hero. And this season is her hero's tale. This lens has helped me understand this season and the pacing a little better. One on last week's show, it was mentioned several times that we had to suspend disbelief for some plot points. Seeing it as an epic tale handed down through the ages helps to make sense of this. Did,

[01:56:04] did the attempted hanging really happen on the same day as the bomb on the plane? It doesn't matter. The essence of the story highlighting the major events that turned the tide in favor of the rebellion. The personal sacrifices and emotional decisions are the point. The way the scenes are shot feels like visual poetry. Less concerned with cold fact than with bigger fundamental truths about the meaning of the rebellion and the values it embodied.

[01:56:32] We know that all of our heroes were imperfect. That war and the journey towards freedom is often slow and chaotic with fits and starts. But our folk tales get to the heart of the matter. Clearing out the clutter and pulling out the narrative of the triumph of justice. I could see the last episode skipping all the way ahead into the future. Skipping over the rebellion entirely. Giving us June as an older woman, Hannah and Nicole by her side,

[01:57:01] sharing the story of June's heroics with their own children. The making of St. June, patroness of bombs and badassery. One aspect of June's character development that I haven't really discussed much is her spirituality. I do believe that there were many times when she would speak the words of the Bible or the religion of Gilead and show their hypocrisy or meet to them on their level. In the season,

[01:57:31] it feels more like she has taken a new ownership of her faith. I do believe she was praying for real during the hanging scene. I feel like her prayer was a moment of actualization for June, where all doubt and fear around her place in the cause was erased, and she accepted it as a mission from God or something like it. In that moment, she fully accepted her role and was willing to use her last breath to lead the people of Gilead towards freedom.

[01:58:00] The final scene. What an awful, beautiful way for Lawrence to go. The perfect sacrifice. He made a final choice for love, to right his wrongs, for love of his wife, love of June, and love of Charlotte. A different kind of trinity, for sure. When Nick paused outside the plane, I was screaming at June, no, he's made his choice, do not go after him. The pain of knowing he would die would have been unbearable, but probably just as unbearable

[01:58:29] was the knowledge that he had made a choice that abandoned June and his own daughter, both personally and in principle. Thank you again for a wonderful podcast. Thanks, Sammy. That was really well written. Yeah. I feel like that's how I feel. That's why I'm probably so forgiving of any of the little details because that truly is how I feel when you said it so much better. Yeah, the visual poetry. Yeah, I love all that. That's so true. And I mean,

[01:58:59] you know, you got to have some sense of one thing follows from the other or else there's only so much belief that you can suspend or disbelief, but there is a line there where it's more important to get the emotional truth of the story than to worry about the logistics and stuff like that. So I really love how you said that. Also, I think June has over the course of the series, there have been other moments. I can't remember them.

[01:59:29] And so Cynthia is going to say I should not be on this podcast, but where she's shown that she is religious, you know, not just this season. So, but yeah, they seem to focus on it a little bit more in this final season. Yeah. She has her own. Yeah, that religion is false. Yeah. Yeah. Like, but it doesn't mean that she's an atheist. I think she believes in God. Right. Right. I agree. So PG Kraft says, telling Naomi to read chapter nine

[01:59:58] of A Little Princess may be sending Charlotte a message about Janine. Maybe. Could be. Oh. Could be. There are things that happen in that book that. We don't know. Yeah. There are things that happen in that book that could. Yeah, I can see that. Kiva Schur says, so I'm curious why there's been zero mention of Hannah. You'd think June and Luke

[02:00:28] would be attempting to get her during the chaos of the rebellion. It's the one thing that's bugging me. Me too. I mean, the writing just didn't want to focus on that and I think it was to the, to the, it stood out because there were times when they really, you'd think it would have been brought up. Well, and remember, Hannah was in Colorado, which is far away from where they are. Into the interior of Gilead's strongholds. I mean, as I've mentioned probably too many times

[02:00:57] when Nick said, let's go to Paris and June was all caught up in the moment. You're crazy. She should have said, no, my hand is here. You didn't give her a minute. Gary Willhide says, did Luke really have to wait until June was hung before taking action or was he still a little salty over her affair with a Nazi? Just kidding. I'll just wait a couple seconds here.

[02:01:30] Kylie Rosa says, Taylor Swift's, look what you made me do and Aunt Lydia calling out the wicked godless men and June's, don't let the bastards grind you down. Best episode in cinematic history. Those are the moments. Yep. Caitlin Genski says, I was thinking about this today. I thought of this as I listened to the last podcast episode where you guys pointed out how Luke and Rita and the crowd was so last minute out of nowhere from our perspectives.

[02:01:58] I wonder if this next episode will be primarily about a bit of the backstory of them planning that attack more from their perspective. Thoughts? I think it won't. That's my guess. I'm just trying to think of what more they have to do. Yeah, I mean, I think they were rushing just a little bit at the end there to get everything in, but it's fine. Yeah. Yeah. So that is the end of the episode 9 comments. All right. Episode 10,

[02:02:27] The Handmaid's Tale coming full circle. Sarah Siciliano says, Such a beautiful ending. I think the purpose of June reaching out and touching an older Hannah's hand in that room at the Waterfords is that she is going to write this book as a manifestation of the words she spoke to Nicole. She says, You don't need to be near Mama to feel her love. Her love will find you wherever you are. I think, just like Holly said in telling her story through this book,

[02:02:56] it will end up being hope and inspiration for Hannah as she experiences her own journey through oppression and servitude. Hannah will eventually know that her mother is a warrior and that she was always coming back for her. I didn't even think about that, if the book will exist in the world of the Testaments. Mm-hmm. And also for all the other parents and children who were never reunified. Yeah. Amber Lovo says,

[02:03:25] Wow, what an ending. I'm happy this episode was more about the aftermath than action scenes. I cannot believe we saw Emily again. As a book reader who finished rereading the Testaments yesterday, I didn't have hope in seeing Hannah with her parents. However, I was so grateful to see Janine and Charlotte. When they dragged out Janine, I was so scared that she was not alive or injured to the point she couldn't survive. I sobbed so loud.

[02:03:55] Then they brought out Charlotte, Angela, and I cried ugly tears. I was sad that we never finalized Esther's story. I was also sad that we didn't see Rose's ending either. I liked watching June grapple with the feelings of losing Nick. Serena's end was interesting. I cried when she apologized to June. I cried when June said she forgave her. I almost felt bad that she had nothing and no one, but she made her choices. I don't like saying she got

[02:04:25] what she deserved because she did and she didn't, but I do like that she left and finally took a life of challenge instead of running back to Gilead and convenience. June and Luke being neutral to each other and going separate ways was odd to me. June choosing to leave Holly again was hard for me, but I understand it. June showing up to the Waterford's old home in white blue was remarkable and a fantastic

[02:04:54] choice of imagery. And she started her book in the same place. That was beautiful. Overall, I rated it an 8 out of 10 for an ending. I can't wait for the Testaments. Please, please give us an episode or two to talk about the books before the Testaments comes out if you can. Thank you for your hard work. This podcast makes me so, so happy. I love it. Don't let the bastards grind you down and blessed be the Froot Loops. That's great. So we're

[02:05:23] doing a book club. We are. And we don't know yet if we're going to cover the Handmaid's Tale or just go straight to the head, right? Do you want to talk about that or not? Yeah. It was suggested that we do the Handmaid's Tale book before we do the Testaments. And so in our May Day group, I'm going to put out a poll about it to kind of gauge what those that are interested in the book club want to do.

[02:05:53] And we'll go from there. And Amber, if you're not in the May Day group, it should be in the show notes. I think she might have joined recently. I'm not sure though. Okay. Okay. Lindsay Schlicht, who's been a listener for a long time, says, beautiful episode with Emily and Janine being the high points. A little annoyed to not have any resolution for Hannah after six years of waiting. Yeah, I can see that. I did like the episode, but it felt a little lackluster for a series finale.

[02:06:23] Wish we had more. Marie Lydane says, I'm getting ready to listen to the podcast. I'm hoping to have a little more appreciation for the episode after hearing their breakdown. Jason, I'm on your side about the June Luke scene. When I watched it, I was thinking, not even an embrace. Definitely seemed odd, especially given their last conversation about being together. They're flirting. I wonder if people liked it better after hearing us. I don't know.

[02:06:53] I guess we'll never know. Daniel Dement Juice says, new thoughts as I listen to the podcast. We knew Nick as well as June did, and this is her story. She didn't directly see him do horrible things for Gilead, but she knew in the back of her mind that he did, just like the audience. He was involved in bombing Chicago, as I recall. He literally did whatever he had to do for his own comfort and safety with the occasional risk taking for June.

[02:07:24] But my point is that the audience knew him only, as well as June did, and it helped us accept her having feelings for him. Naomi did not suddenly change, in my opinion. She also did what she had to do to keep herself safe and comfortable. She never once behaved like a woman who actually wanted a child. She was short-tempered and controlling with Charlotte always. She was supposed to want a child and fill the role of mother, so that's what she did to

[02:07:54] keep herself in good standing. But once she was left alone with a child she never really wanted, I doubt it was hard to convince her to return Charlotte to Janine. I imagine Mark Tuella worked out some sort of deal with Gilead to return Janine and Charlotte, and there's no reason to think Naomi cared one way or the other, in my opinion. I mean, Naomi made a big deal about the pomp and circumstance around, it was Naomi, right, when all

[02:08:23] the wives were gathered around her as if she was the one giving birth, and then in the room next door was Janine with actually giving birth, and it was just ridiculous because they were treating Naomi as if she, but I'm not saying that means that she wanted to have to mother a child, but she very much worked to have that child to get a handmaid and

[02:08:53] the baby. I mean, it wasn't like she was resisting the whole thing or trying not to have it happen or something like that. She was trying to have it happen. I've mixed. I feel like, again, they didn't quite give us enough on Naomi to really definitively know, but I think she cared about Charlotte, but yes, I'm not sure. It seemed like she handed her off to the handmaid or the Martha or whoever in her home.

[02:09:23] I just think she's not a great person and she wouldn't have been a great mother, but I don't think that she doesn't care about having a child. She just wanted to have a child and be a shitty mother. And I think they tried to show us in the last couple episodes that she did care about Charlotte and that she cared about what Lawrence had said to her, but maybe not quite enough for us to

[02:09:52] really know how she felt about giving up Charlotte. And just the fact that she just had called Belle over to whose house was Serena at? Wharton. She called Wharton to come over to Lawrence's house and she's like, you should be glad to have this good husband. And she's just always towing the line with Gilead. So then to see her show up in the middle of the night with his baby and give it back to Janine, it just

[02:10:22] seemed like, oh, we've never seen her do anything like that before. But at the same time, bad things happen to people that don't toe the line. Wives that act differently, it doesn't go well. Yeah, I know. I don't know why that means that suddenly she would risk herself. You're saying that she did everything so she wouldn't risk something bad happening. No, I'm saying we might not really know how she felt about

[02:10:52] it because in public around other wives, she had to act a certain way. Do you think she was acting like she was acting or do you think it seemed like she really felt all snotty the way she really acted? I mean, I think snotty is one thing. Like, she probably was genuinely snotty, but I think towing the Gilead line, you know, talking piously and you should do this with your husband, that may have all been

[02:11:22] Gilead. She just seems so judgmental to me. Like, that judgment doesn't come from, I'm going to pretend to be judgmental so I can fit in. It just seemed to really come from her. Like, you're not proper like me kind of thing. I don't know. I guess we could argue about this all day long. Yeah. Is it my turn? It's your turn. Okay. Sarah Chase says, I just have a few notes on June's vision of singing karaoke with the women she fought and struggled

[02:11:52] alongside. I've binge rewatched the first season and part of the second leading up to the airing of the finale and several of the full circle moments in the finale were that much more moving and satisfying having done that. I bet. Especially June's picturing of the women singing karaoke. It was only briefly mentioned in the podcast and I think it was said that it was women who were freed from Gilead, but that wasn't quite it. What actually was happening in that scene was part of June's envisioning how things could have been had Gilead never happened. Janine had

[02:12:21] both of her eyes. Alma and Brianna were there, alive and joyful, and probably others who hadn't survived. And what added an additional layer of poignancy was that it was a call back to when June talked Janine into handing over Charlotte when she was about to jump off the bridge. June said they were going to get through this and when it was all over they would go out drinking and have so much fun. And Janine mentioned Moira, Alma, and the other handmaids and asked could they sing karaoke. It was just such a sweet and sad moment between them, a kind of what if we escape from this timeline

[02:12:51] and things could go back to normal, while knowing that even if they got out of this things would never be the same again and they probably never would have known each other had Gilead never happened. I agree with that. And then Janine handed over Charlotte and allowed her a chance to live and see things get better and then say goodbye and jumped. Anyway, that scene and then when they were almost forced to do to Janine but refused to do when Janine survived the suicide attempt

[02:13:20] was such a catalyst for June and the others to resist and fight. The karaoke vision in the finale was that much more moving in the context of the season one scene at the bridge. Yeah, I love that. That's great. Tie it together and make it more meaningful. But you must have stopped listening to the podcast and wrote that out because we addressed that right after we said it was actually happening. Then we said no, it actually wasn't actually happening.

[02:13:50] No, because Alma and Brianne died in the train. I thought it was actually happening until I got to the podcast and you guys told me. I wanted it to be real. I didn't recognize Janine. I wanted it to be real. Yeah, it was beautiful. Yeah. Tammy Lynn says that was beautiful. Nice. Tina Marie Goscrit says I'm listening to the podcast now regarding episode 10. I thought

[02:14:19] the interaction with June and Luke was a little bit off. I'm with Jason. Anonymous. Okay, I'm going to make a little scorecard. I thought about just not putting any of those. Yeah, it takes a big person to admit when they're wrong. No, I'm just kidding. No, I don't. Wendy, I'm not admitting I'm wrong. Are you? Of course not. You guys would never do that. No. Okay. Allison Van Tilboard says here's some hot takes.

[02:15:05] I don't think Lawrence was invited to that. They were surprised to see him there. Yeah, that's what I thought. I'm sorry, but I don't agree with this part, that part of your message. Two, the finale should have had more reflection on Nick as a recurring trope. We didn't really have much time to sit in that too long. They kind of hint at this, but June doesn't have much emotion toward it, at least not evenly throughout the episode. If Nick was a theme throughout the episode, then there could have

[02:15:35] been a cool quote letting go of both Nick and Luke thing in this episode, meaning she wouldn't end up with either and she'd be more focused on her main objective, which is Hannah. This could have also made the scene at the Waterford House more powerful because we were forced to remember what was and how far we've come. I kind of got that vibe anyway, even though maybe they could have really drove the point home even more that June didn't need to be with any man. Three, Janine being

[02:16:04] taken by Gilead was entirely unnecessary. I didn't even realize she was gone. It felt weird that Gilead threw her on the ground at the border and then Angela was sent over immediately after. I completely agree with you on this one. Wouldn't it have been more suspenseful for Janine to be called to the border, there to be fear and uncertainty and then Naomi walk over with Angela and place her in her arms? Yes. Four, I agree about the point in the last podcast about Luke and June.

[02:16:34] They just recommitted to one another. Why do we have this conversation again but a different conclusion? You either love each other and stay together or love each other but do life apart. Choose one. Felt like sloppy writing. You know where I stand on that one. Five, Serena's ending is not satisfying. We all know she's going to bounce back and end up with Commander Tuelo. I don't want her to die but there's no actual sense of stakes or justice. I'd be shocked if she doesn't make a reappearance in some powerful

[02:17:03] position in the Testaments. Wendy, I have to ask you and I feel like I feel like I may have asked you on the podcast before. How do you feel as the queen of the Tueloists? How would you feel about Serena with Tuelo? She does not deserve him but I'm ready for them to be together and have babies. Okay. Alright. Yeah. I get what people are saying and it totally

[02:17:33] makes sense to me and I think it's definitely an emotional response where I want them to have that ending. Yeah. For me, because this is a fantasy and I'm sort of like if Serena can just stay repentant and a person like this probably wouldn't but if she could life with her child. I think it would be nice for her to be with Mark but that feels like a fantasy. Also, I'm a

[02:18:02] chemistry person. If two characters have chemistry, even sometimes if it's bad chemistry, I love that and those two had hot smoke in chemistry together. Right from day one. Right from day one. Did you watch Andor? No. Should I? Yes. Andor is one of the best shows in recent years and it's kind of Handmaid's Tale-y. It's all about regular people and a rebellion, right? Yeah. And even more sometimes than Handmaid's Tale. And there's these

[02:18:31] two characters who one is an imperial like commander, part of the empire and it's a woman and she's all buttoned down with her hair pulled back and she's just really severe, right? But she's gorgeous but her lips are always turned down and then she meets this like sniveling toady empire guy who's got kind of a sneer on his face all the time and then he he goes after her as a as a potential love interest and there's so much chemistry between

[02:19:01] them in this really weird twisted way and you hate both of them but it was so much fun to watch, you know? Okay, you got me intrigued. It was a similar thing, yeah, yeah. Sarah Papa says Hi, so I just finished the last episode of the last season and I'm very disappointed. No, Hannah? Boring. Tam from Perth says Hey Daphne, Wendy and Jason, I found myself having to do a rewatch to remember lots of this finale because I really wanted to absorb

[02:19:30] myself into the episode without thinking too much. I feel like Tam is one step away from being a podcaster. Me too. Janine was my first real concern because I noticed her being led away with Lydia by Guardians in the previously on recap. So not seeing her with June, Maura and Rita, I really thought she's gone for sure and there's going to be rioting in the streets and internet. The second watch I felt grateful

[02:20:00] I didn't have that short panic again. I think this was a well-rounded finish to this epic tale given everyone some sort of happiness to move forward with. For June's voiceover paying respect to Lawrence while she described the fall of Boston giving that credit partly to him for his sacrifice albeit not planned but forced. I think knowing she didn't manipulate him in his final moments showed a form of respect. Bradley Whitford

[02:20:30] was perfection in this role and I missed his witty charm. When I heard Emily's voice I cried and cheered that she never just disappeared. Then one line from her then I realized the common thread with everyone and it linked this whole episode together for me. Emily fighting for Syl and Oliver. Toella closed his eyes and saw his son then got back to work so his son didn't have to. Luke and June had to fight for

[02:20:59] Hannah without each other so they took their own paths to find her and meet each other there. Yes! Holly scared for the new June and baby Holly's future. Even Hannah I guessed saying June should write so her daughters would know how much she fought to save them. Naomi fighting her desire for perfection I could assume but giving Charlotte to Janine she gives in to her own needs.

[02:21:31] And our Janine she never gave up fighting for herself for Charlotte and for June. Even Lydia came good and shouted from the hangman's noose she would fight against evil men. I think her final good deed was for Janine her extra special girl. And lastly Serena. She made a bad choice in her need for a baby and her realization that all she needed was baby Noah who made her a mother and her fight for that purest of all love.

[02:22:00] This wasn't a fighting story or a love story it was a human story that showed all the aspects humans will fight for what they believe in. Everyone grew and learned that sacrifice for life and love is what it's all about. So we say goodbye to June in our attic in the color of teal. Now that could be my TV or it could be one of those little things this show loves to layer depth with color and bathe our screens with beauty amongst the ruins. I truly am sad

[02:22:30] it's over. I loved all of it even the hard parts. It's been a wonderful tale indeed. Thank you for sharing your time with us all so very much appreciated. Going Grace, Tam from Perth. Thanks, Tam. Thank you, Tam. I only watched our screeners which the video quality wasn't as good so I might have to go back and watch them again in better quality. I think I watched eight on Paramount. I mean on Hulu. Sorry,

[02:23:00] I'm thinking Yellow Jackets. I watched eight on Hulu. That's a good idea. Melissa Dickinson says I think as far as series finales go this was fine. As we've seen it's incredibly hard to get a plane from point A to point B without it just blowing up in our faces in the end. Hashtag RIP Lawrence. I thought the way the series handled relationships was phenomenal. None of the women ended up with a partner and I appreciated that because the women deserve to be free to figure out who they are before walking right into another relationship that will try to

[02:23:30] define them again. Luke and June obviously respect one another's individuals and I like how Luke recognized June's experiences and loves including Nick without judgment while June admitted that she had underestimated him. Their interaction had that placid feeling that happens when people are able to let go of resentments because they've stopped trying to force themselves into a relationship and are thus able to see all the things they do admire about each other. It felt like they had just walked out of divorce court in a way.

[02:23:59] In their relationship they were actually apart longer than they were married I believe. Will they reunite metaphorically as well as literally in DC? We don't know and that's okay. I think that the situation between Mark and Serena was handled similarly well. Serena simply cannot continue marrying every man who shows up no matter how hot he is. We know she's changing and we get to see her starting to realize what's actually important. Maybe she'll actually be worthy when Mark does finder quote

[02:24:29] wherever you are. From that look on his face he's obviously going to come knocking at some point. Jason I don't think she wants to go to Gilead. I think with the passport conversation she was just pointing out that she's stateless. Yeah I agree. I agree with that although I think there's a chance if she could go to Gilead that she may consider it rather than be in a refugee shelter. But my point about that was more like why

[02:24:58] can't she go to Gilead because I didn't think anybody knew that she betrayed anyone. They would have kept that a secret. Anyway she goes on I don't see why she couldn't just go back to the commune she was at before Lawrence found her. There's a good point. I love that Janine was shown being rescued and that she got Charlotte back but I have questions. I'm not confused that Naomi gave her up because she very obviously didn't want a child to begin with. But how is she explaining the fact that the girl is gone to the other Gileadians? That's a good

[02:25:28] question. You don't just misplace the whole child especially not in Gilead. Is Naomi going to Hawaii? I'd be surprised if she was with Mayday so that can't be it and why are these eyes allowing it to happen? Is the other side of the story going to be shown in the Testament series? Viewers would sometimes learn things that June didn't know so I don't think it would have been outrageous for us to know what happened here. It felt rushed to me I'm saying. That brings me to my biggest frustration. We spent 5.75 seasons working up to a revolution

[02:25:58] which then came and went in 0.25 of a season. I didn't suffer along with June for all these years to have the whole thing done in essentially three episodes and not get to see even a montage of the fighting or any of the surrender. This episode spent a lot of time on flashbacks of Hannah that were cute but felt dropped in as filler. Same with the long karaoke scene. I hate that song and although I get that the lyrics are about change etc.

[02:26:28] Its sentiment didn't fit the exuberance of their performance which somehow confusingly included Janine because it was a what if. I thought it was the women having met up to celebrate being free and thought oh I guess she was rescued but then she got thrown at us in the rescue 10 minutes later so I guess it was just a daydream. Yes. I don't know but it was time that could have been spent on filling out the story in other places. What about poor Nicole? That child is constantly being left.

[02:26:57] Yes I know that feeds us directly into the testaments but it feels bad to have June constantly dreaming of Hannah while not parenting poor Nicole at all. Anyway I think that this was fine somewhere near the perfection nowhere near the perfection of the good place finale but a million times better than the how I met your mother debacle of 2014. Bye. Oh man. Jennifer Ringham

[02:27:26] says SMH Nick. Shaking my head. Shaking my head Nick. When someone shows you who they are believe them. He had me fooled that he cared about more than himself deep deep down. Guess not. Ama Contreras says I liked how June kept thinking of Hannah. I was glad because she hadn't mentioned her for a while and ultimately her reason for fighting and going back to Gilead had always been Hannah. I was sad we

[02:27:55] didn't get any closure with that. I had really wanted to see June and Luke reunite with Hannah. At least we got Janine back and reunited with her baby. This finale left me a little flat. I guess the show ended how it needed to end with everything ultimately being about June since it was her story. Mm-hmm. Handmaid's Tale. Danielle Dement Joe says the finale didn't quite meet my expectations but I'd be hard pressed to articulate why. It's probably Hannah

[02:28:25] and she says hard pressed and then nails it. I found it a little a little off that so many Americans were happy to resettle Boston so soon. They're literally surrounded by Gilead. I wouldn't have felt safe there yet. Serena's final scene was a little odd to me. Like somewhere in her mind she's still thinking all of this is or was worth it because she got to have the baby she always wanted. She's shown remorse for the way she directly treated June but none for everything else she helped happen.

[02:28:56] I was thinking about something. The Waterfords were June's third placement if I recall correctly. I'm surprised we never heard any reference to her time in the other two commanders' homes. Yeah, all these are good points. I think Luke and Janine are I think Luke and June are just in a holding pattern until they get to after like they talked about. Now is not the time to figure out their relationship but they will eventually one way or the other. For now they will each do what they need to do. I was surprised Naomi gave

[02:29:25] Charlotte back to Janine. They never explained how they secured that release but good work to Willow. I wanted Lydia to step forward and declare that she was done with Gilead but I guess she's going to keep trying to revolutionize Gilead from the inside. That part is unbelievable to me honestly. After Boston, I cannot imagine them letting her stay alive let alone stay an aunt. But Mayday has a woman on the inside so I'll take it. All in all, it was an excellent show and I'm glad to have watched it.

[02:29:55] Thank you for the amazing coverage going all the way back to Kristen, Diana, and Lizzie. And was there another group before them? No, they were the first. I remember being really disappointed when the host changed but ended up loving everyone equally, lol. Thanks. Thank you. Penny Lennox says, Nick is, was, selfish. I never got a sense from him that he believed in Gilead as a concept or from a moral standpoint and I don't think he cared about fertility or the environment. I don't think he

[02:30:25] has morals at all. Just desire for power and June. I don't even think he loved June. He loved being able to do things for her because it made him feel powerful. Thank you, Penny. I agree. I think he was really into June. I think he, I don't know if you, if it's love, but. Infatuation, obsession. Maybe some kind of obsessed

[02:30:55] idealization or something like that but I really think he was hung up on her. That's the way to put it. For sure. Murr Ann says, I think what bothered me most about the writing and the final episode was the forced happy ending for Janine. So many things didn't make sense about it. Why did Gilead agree to give up Janine? Why is Lydia back to being an aunt after defying the Gilead men with her final words at her almost execution? She surely wouldn't be back

[02:31:25] in a position of power that quickly. most unbelievable Naomi Putman drank the Gilead Kool-Aid and tried to keep Serena in line this entire season. No way in hell would she have given up her child to the woman who once said to her, I hate you. I just couldn't suspend disbelief and therefore the happy ending didn't move me at all. I mean, they totally could have forced her to do it. So I think I've seen a few things

[02:31:55] about this, but I think it's either one of two ways. Either it's a Gilead sanctioned, it could be swapping prisoners or whatever else they're going to gain from it. But it also could have been a backhanded deal and they're going to come up with some kind of story to explain why that child's missing, why Janine's missing, assuming they can even know those things. But it's one of those two things, you know, it's some Nick negotiating with

[02:32:24] somebody in Gilead. I mean, not Nick, Mark. Oh, Mark, Mark, Mark, Mark, Nick, Luke, one syllable. Like a walking dead with Carol, Daryl, Carl. Yeah. Merle. Yeah. Yeah. This, I think the idea was that Lawrence was getting to Naomi. I think that's why they had that reading scene with the book. And to me, it was just a little too little, but I

[02:32:54] think that was the idea. And yeah, that doesn't explain everything you talked about, but I think that's at least where they were going with her. Alison Lay Crass Blau says, in her room in the Waterford's home, Offred confined in red versus June in green and liberated. Full circle and on to the Testaments, I sobbed through the entire finale, Bravo. Chef's kiss and homage paid to the legendary

[02:33:23] Margaret Atwood. Nay from Detroit says, I completely agree with him, I'm assuming she meets Jason, that this whole finale didn't make any sense. I don't think Jason said that. No, so I'm not sure. Maybe, yeah. Who were these characters? Luke and June did have the conversation about being together, and next episode, bam, like it never happened. I think that's what she agrees with. Just so boo of a finale. No, I like the

[02:33:53] finale. Yeah, me too. Terry from Huntington Beach says, Hey, Podcastica crew, I wanted to give my final thoughts on this great series. The first few seasons were nerve-wracking. I cringed every time June was by the Gilead higher-ups. Those first few seasons were great TV, but I think the showrunners bit off more than they could chew with the last few seasons. Telling a massive multi-country

[02:34:22] revolution while crowbarring our heroes into the story is hard to do. June and Moira's ex-handmaids and Luke, a lovable but not the smartest fellow leading the rebellion. It's just not believable. What the showrunners could have done is tell the story of our heroes with the rebellion running in the background. This is easier said than done. A very successful way of telling this type of story was season two of Andor on Disney+.

[02:34:52] We saw the rebellion through slices of the lives of our heroes through time jumps and multi-planet adventures. It made for a very believable and well-told story. It's hard to nail the ending of a great series. Game of Thrones didn't do it. Neither did Lost, but both of those shows were great. I think The Handmaid's Tale was a great show, great writing, acting, cinematography, etc. The ending was good, not great. I'll be watching The Testaments.

[02:35:23] P.S. I know Trump is a jerk, but we aren't living in Gilead. Things aren't that bad. Well, I have the same answer to that as I did to that caller who called in about it. Yeah. Things aren't that bad until they're that bad. Until you're in an El Salvadorian prison. Yeah. And it doesn't have to be as bad as Gilead to be bad and to be something that is worth

[02:35:53] fighting against. point. It is bad now, and when you can see things going a certain way, you don't wait until they get all the way there before you start speaking up about it. Yeah. Okay, next one is from listener Bruce Miller who says, Wendy, Daphne, and Jason, thanks for all your thoughtful coverage of The Handmaid's Tale. I had a lot of fun listening to your conversations, and I know they deepen the experience for so many viewers. Blessed be the fight,

[02:36:22] Bruce Miller. And who's Bruce Miller? I think we know him. He was the showrunner for the first five seasons and stepped away as showrunner so he could work on The Testaments but continued to write for the show. And I just want to say, Bruce, thank you so much for this show and also for putting up with my petty nitpicks. We love the show with all our hearts. Yeah, it meant a lot to hear from him. I mean,

[02:36:52] I said it on the last show, I think this might be the best series ever, so not going to hear many complaints from me. Yeah, we got so much out of it. Yeah. Sarah Siciliano says, Jason, Luke said exactly what you wanted him to say. He told June he knows they loved her and she loved them and they deserve to be remembered. I have no idea what that means. Okay, so that had to do, all right.

[02:37:23] I read this in the, before and I couldn't really, I don't understand it unless I was going to reply to it. Jason, Luke said exactly what you wanted him to say. He told June he knows they, they he means Nick, Lawrence, all the people that helped her. Okay. That they loved her and she loved them and they deserve to be remembered and he names them off even. Oh, thank you. Okay. Yeah.

[02:37:53] And I feel like that is his way of saying, I know you need to mourn the people you have lost. I also think it is because of how much love is between them that they say a lot to each other in that conversation without using words. They show their love by fully supporting each other and what they need to do. And I agree. I think Luke was trying to say to June, it's okay for you to mourn the people that you've lost. Even if it's

[02:38:22] hard for him because if you think about it, Luke knowing Nick, you know, like Nick is one of them, but he even acknowledged that. I don't think you can measure the decisions they are making in their relationship as if they were two regular people in regular times. They have future historical figures, leaders of rebellion, icons of goodness and light, no time for any kind of codependency. LOL. I mean, it's true. No time for that. Yeah. That's part of it. Yeah.

[02:38:52] They were not, this is not normal times. Robin Price Daily says, I purposefully watched it before getting out of bed, so I didn't get spoiled. But since this is a feedback post, I assume people will avoid it until they have watched. I went into this with guarded optimism. I wasn't sure how they would be able to give us any sort of closure in the one remaining episode. I will say I was pleasantly surprised. They certainly managed to tie every

[02:39:21] storyline up into a nice, neat little bow. They were even able to tie up Hannah's story as good as they could without a rescue. I loved that they brought Emily back. I thought she was imagining it at first, but I loved that surprise. I love the way that Luke and June parted ways. It was perfect. I cried during the whole episode like a lot. I feel satisfied. I can't wait for Testaments, although I feel like they will have to change quite a bit of it to adjust to the

[02:39:51] story changes they did here. Either way, I'm eager and satisfied at the same time. Well done. Yeah, I'm looking forward to seeing how they do that for sure. Yeah, I think there's ways they could change it. I wonder if they'll have such a big time jump or not, you know? Right. Yeah. I think hopefully it's okay to say this, but I thought I read or heard someone saying that they were just not going to have much of a time jump

[02:40:26] which I think Testaments is. I think that would be so cool. Yeah. Nicole Cavallo Edwards says, I was satisfied with the ending. Love that Emily was back and she helped fan the flames in June to keep fighting and that it doesn't mean she's leaving her family wholly by doing so. Was okay with the Luke and June and accept no hug or I love you goodbye? Or did they still meet up at wherever home was after that before they both skedaddle off? I don't think so. I think that they were partying there.

[02:40:56] I like Serena's somewhat redemptive arc. I don't think she can ever make up for all she did though. Like she said, she did bring Boston down twice. Oh, the first time was not so great. But I do think she has major regrets. June forgiving her was more for June's sake. I don't know that Serena deserved it, but maybe it will be the final tipping point in her head to stop being a Nazi too. Love seeing the singing and dancing with the ladies. RIP Alma and Brianna

[02:41:26] were shocked that Naomi gave Angela back. I'd love to have seen a bit in what brought that on. Saw a post on Reddit that the theme for this episode was mothers and daughters, and it really was. Yeah. Yeah. Whitney Kibler says lame as fuck. LOL. That's the way to end. Yeah. That's our final one. No, I'm just kidding. We actually have a voicemail

[02:41:55] from Renee Murray. Hi, Daphne. Hi, Wendy. Hi, Jason. Madeline Joe, I just want to say to you, you did an awesome job and I wouldn't expect anything less from you. You're my girl. Okay, let's get to this finale. This finale is like most finales. It left me one more. You know, I sit here wondering why did they do that? Why didn't they do this? And yet, that's what

[02:42:24] most finales do. You know, they leave you one more. Now, for me, June is the Harriet Tubman of The Handmaid's Tale. She stood on business. She never backed down. She led people to freedom, period. Now, when I look at Gilliam, I don't just see a dystopia, I see a plantation. And because of that, it's hard for me to see anyone who was a part of it as good. They were all horrible. Every last

[02:42:54] one of them. I didn't feel sympathy for Lawrence, for Wharton, for Nick, or any of those commanders. They all got what they deserved. Good riddance. And honestly, I feel the same way about Lydia, Serena, Naomi, and all the other women who were complicit. They helped commit genocide. Thousands, maybe millions of women were beaten, raped,

[02:43:24] and broken. Why did it take all of that suffering for them to finally realize what they were a part of? But you know what hurts me the most? They stole those children. Like slavery, it wasn't just the abuse. It was tearing families apart. That's what I cannot forgive. Whenever I watch movies about enslaved people, what breaks me isn't just the cruelty, it's the separation. Mothers from daughters, fathers from sons,

[02:43:53] husbands from wives. And I ask myself, would I be able to forgive someone who took my child? And the answer is no. Hell to the no. hell to the no, no, no. I can forgive a lot of things, but that never. If someone took my child, I'd be just like Janine. I would absolutely lose my mind. And that is why to me, June and Luke, they always felt a little distant.

[02:44:24] Yes, they fought and yes, they saved lives, but they didn't save Hannah. And that weighs on them. You can love someone in all your heart, but if your child is still missing, your heart is not whole. That's why that final scene felt like something was missing because something was missing. Hannah, their daughter. Now, let me tell you, when Janine got Charlotte back, who cried like a baby, it was me. When I tell you, that moment wrecked me in the best way.

[02:44:53] I was so happy for Janine. Now, Serena, unjoyful damn joy. She better not end up with Mark. She better not end up with Wendy's boo because she does not deserve him. Now, although, I will admit that when she apologized to June, I did shed a tear. And I get it. June forgave her because forgiveness isn't about the other person. It's about you. It's about your own peace. And I admire you that. Now,

[02:45:23] for me, I just don't know if I could be that strong. Now, the truth is, I'm glad this show is over. This show was beautiful. It was brilliant, but it was so damn hard to watch. I mean, really hard. But every week, I look forward to hearing from you, the podcast team. And I know, I always go on and on about how much I appreciate you guys. But I believe in giving people their flowers while they're here. So once again, thank you. I appreciate you.

[02:45:53] I salute every single one of you at Podcastica because you guys stand on business as well. Peace and love. Bye. And remember, don't let the bastards grind you down. Renee! Thank you. Well said, too, about the commanders and everything. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I'm glad you said that. Emily Belanger says, Serena's fate felt absolutely

[02:46:23] perfect to me. Before Gilead, she promoted the idea that motherhood was the most important role for every woman, even as she pursued a career with power and influence. She was miserable in Gilead because she'd lost her power and been forced into the domestic life she'd claimed to want but clearly hated. Even after having her own child, she kept seeking out power, even when it meant putting herself and Noah in jeopardy by returning to Gilead, and she never had the

[02:46:53] self-awareness to admit that she wanted power. She had to justify it as a calling from God. Even as things were coming to a close, she complained to June that she was now going to be nobody. So ending with Serena sitting in a room full of fellow refugees, just one of many, with no special treatment, trying to convince herself that motherhood was enough, that felt like the perfect arc. She's still a narcissist, she still

[02:47:22] wishes she had power and fame, but now she doesn't. No one wants to hand her a microphone anymore. I think it's a little more complicated than that, but I think you're mostly right, that I think she is, well, like I said when I read that news article, she was genuinely happy and at peace in that moment, but her old patterns will rear themselves again and she'll want attention

[02:47:52] or want power, right? Probably. Probably. I mean, maybe not. Maybe nobody's going to come for her. Maybe Mark's going to find somebody else and that's that. He said he would seek her out and I believe even if he doesn't want her as a partner that he'll try to help you would think. Morgan Allen says, I happy cried when I saw the karaoke scene. I understand it was a vision, but I was

[02:48:22] happy that June remembered the promise she made to Janine when she was going to jump off the bridge with Charlotte. Yeah. Holly Dillon says, the emotions the show ending and the podcast stirred up were unexpected, so I'm glad that it's over and I can release that torment now. But I am glad the ending had some wins and hope for a full Gilead takedown in the future. However, in the real world, we are still in a real life Gilead, so it's also hard to see their wins and a finality

[02:48:51] on the show when it feels like we potentially don't get any wins that stretch out for four years. Yep. Tina Marie Grosgritz says, I have mixed feelings about the finale. I love that Janine got her daughter Charlotte back. Why didn't Naomi bring the book Lawrence read to her? I was hoping we would see what happened to Rose and the wives. We didn't get closure on Esther either. I'm hopeful we get some answers on the testaments. I'm wondering

[02:49:21] how much the show will differ from the book. I listened to it a few years ago when it was released. I'm looking forward to your feedback episodes. I will miss listening to your show once you wrap up the podcast. Aw, thank you. Well, we will be back with testaments when it comes back, so we are going to be covering that. And if you want to hear us in the meantime, start watching Yellowjackets and go listen to Yellowjackets WTF. Yep. Jada Pellegrino says, I was annoyed

[02:49:50] with Luke's ego in season 6 episode 10 finale. Also, how he doesn't take accountability for his faults, but tries to make June feel guilty for her faults. Luke would rather run away than take accountability. June is better off without Luke. He prefers June to be submissive to him, but the new June is not submissive in spirit. She won't be oppressed. He doesn't love her as a leader, a hero. Her mom does, and so many others do, but Luke doesn't. Luke wants to be in the spotlight. I think a lot of people

[02:50:20] forget that Luke was going to blow up Jezebel's without warning the girls. That was Luke's original plan when he first joined Mayday. Janine wouldn't be alive if June and Moira didn't go there together. A lot of innocent people died shortly after Luke joined Mayday. Oh. What do you guys think about that? I think that's definitely a different take. It wasn't my take. Yeah. I don't understand it. But I do think

[02:50:49] they showed Luke to be a little rash, right? Yes. He seemed like he was coked up or something. I think, well, if you look at it from his point of view, June has been able to be in the thick of it for a while, and he was not able to have any impact on anything. Yeah, felt helpless. Yeah. And so this was his opportunity to jump in with both feet. Have an impact. Yeah. Maybe he was running too fast, a little, a bit too

[02:51:19] fast at times. Yeah. I mean, all this stuff about his ego and that he didn't take accountability for his faults and tried to make her, well, okay, trying to make her feel guilty is about yelling at her about Nick, I think. Yeah. But run away, then take accountability and prefers June to be submissive to him. I don't understand really what you're right. I'm surprised he had yelled at her before. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I don't really understand.

[02:51:49] Maybe Jada's a fan of Nick and that's where a lot of this comes from. That's possible. Anyway. Kiva Cher said, I honestly don't know what I'm going to do without the catharsis of watching the show during the current degradation of our democracy. Some people can't watch The Handmaid's Tale because it hits too close to home. For me, I found it soothing to see our reality reflected in such a beautiful, artful way. The idea of our real fall of our country continuously

[02:52:19] unfolding without this show feels very disconcerting to me. Well, Kiva, if you're not a member of our Mayday Facebook group, please come and join us. We've had a lot of people join over the last couple of weeks, so now that the show is over, I'm going to try to spend more time in there getting to know everyone, but please join us over there. And it sounds like we might get testaments relatively soon, sooner than we got this season.

[02:52:50] Yeah, I thought I saw a rumor maybe the end of this year even, but that's an interesting idea. I didn't like, yeah, we were worried that it was going to be hard to watch with what's going on in the country, and it turned out to be kind of helpful, and now like she's saying not having the show is disconcerting, which is interesting. I think part of it is just because it was a season of rebellion and some victories and wins on the good guy side and stuff like that, you know? Yeah.

[02:53:19] But we're still there, like we're in the Facebook group, so please come join us. So the comments coming up are about the overall season. All right, Beck Flea says, I've been thinking about the characterization of June as the hero mother, the bold, self-sacrificing woman who will stop at nothing to protect her children. I'm curious whether anyone has questioned the impact this portrayal has on the audience. Specifically, has there been any critique of how this reinforces the

[02:53:49] idea that women are most valuable in maternal or caregiving roles? I wonder how this might affect women in the audience who can't or choose not to have children. Can the series separate feminism from motherhood or women from the role of mother? Is June celebrated as a hero precisely because she aligns with the societal expectation that women should always put their children first? I also question whether this narrative might

[02:54:19] unintentionally reinforce gendered divisions of care, making it harder to imagine a more equal sharing of caregiving roles between men and women. I'd really love to hear this explored in your next episode as I haven't come across much discussion on this angle in anything I've read or heard about the series so far. It's really interesting to think about and talk about and I think it definitely has,

[02:54:49] you know, it definitely is true in many ways that this becomes about June and her child and what would it be like if she had no children? Could she have this role? Yeah. I think about Rita who obviously had a more minor role but Rita didn't have any children that we ever knew of and yet she well I was talking about Rita. Okay, I'm just saying more is

[02:55:19] another one that had no kids. And yet they fought just as hard to free the women and children and other people in Gilead. Yeah, I mean when I hear, when I read this, my first thought and maybe I hope it doesn't come off as too dismissive but it's just like this happened to be a story about a woman and who, I mean the whole thing about Handmaid's Tale is they take your kids away.

[02:55:48] That's the premise of the story. So it's about a woman who had her kid taken away, that's what the story is. And you know Luke is a father and he's just as pissed off and he's doing heroics too. So there's someone of another gender doing something similar. so it should sort of equalize in my mind. And then also June, you're saying here that women are most valuable in

[02:56:18] maternal or caregiving roles but then June also gets criticized for not staying with Nicole. So she's sort of can't win either way. Yeah. So I don't know. I think this is definitely, you know, absolutely, maybe I shouldn't be the one saying this but it is a subject that's important and worth talking about but I don't feel critical of this story for being about a woman who is worried about her child.

[02:56:48] I think it's a little bit like Hollywood shows have to stick with some of the traditional tropes to continue selling to a wide audience. I mean, I'm putting words in Beck's mouth self but I think kind of that's what they're saying and I think that is true that Hollywood does do that. Look, Margaret Atwood wrote this book

[02:57:18] and she's like a premier feminist and, you know, it wasn't so there could be a TV show. They made it the TV show. So I think it does, and correct me if I'm right, but it does line up in some ways with a lot of like, oh, why does the woman have to be presented as her importance is just as being a mother, you know? But I don't think this story is like those other stories because June is such a multifaceted

[02:57:47] character and we saw her go through PTSD and it's not just about her being a mother. She's a fully realized person, I would say, very complicated and, you know, she kind of almost just happens to be a mother. And I also think this, the source material was written a long, long time ago, probably older than most of the listeners. And, you know,

[02:58:17] so I do think if the source material was written in the last five years, it would probably look pretty differently and maybe that's a good thing, you know, that things are evolving. I recommend The Robber Bride by Margaret Atwood, which seems to be more of a, more what you're talking about, Beck. Yeah, I wonder if you've read other... Yeah.

[02:58:47] Kimberly, is it me? No, it's Jason. Sorry. Yeah, I'm just hesitant. I don't want this to feel like I just shut all that down, but that's just what thoughts came up to me when I read it. If I'm being unreasonable, I want one of you guys to tell me. I don't think you're being unreasonable. I do think what I get what Beck is saying. Yeah. And I think it would be a

[02:59:16] more modern telling. Yeah. Which I'd love to see someday. What do you think, and this is just purely out of curiosity to explore the subject, what do you think they could change to make it satisfactory? I think what he's saying is that he or she yeah, is that the reason why it evokes so much emotion in us is

[02:59:45] because June is a mom and June has a child and how do we evoke those same emotions in shows without having to go there? Not that I think it's a bad place to go because it's not. I love this story. I love the novel. I love the source material. But I just think that's what they're saying is that can you evoke the same emotion in a story without those

[03:00:15] tropes. I mean, I've noticed especially podcasting that stories where there's something between a parental figure and a child tend to get me and it probably because I became a father, you know, right? We all come to things from our own lens and our own life and experience. And the reality is that, you know, many, many women in the world have children. And so this is an easy thing

[03:00:44] to pluck out that people are going to relate to. But Daphne, I come in from a different perspective. But yet you love this show and it has evoked incredible emotion in you. I've seen it. Yeah, it really depends. I think good storytelling is what draws out emotion in me more than necessarily

[03:01:14] those complex relationships with the, like a mother-child or father-child dynamic. Although, I mean, you're right, like The Last of Us, the whole Joel and Ellie and Ellie's not his daughter, still, it's still got that feel of it because it's this complicated connected relationship between a child

[03:01:44] and a parental figure. Someone who's in a, but in a very post-apocalyptic way. I think I'm just, really, it's not just like parent-child relationships, it can be between two people, whether they're same-sex or not the same-sex, like just that connection between characters. I get drawn to that and less to, well, if it's a mother and a child,

[03:02:13] I'm going to be drawn. Or a father and a child, I'm just drawn to complex or interesting character relationships as a whole. But I know that a lot of people are drawn to, and as Jason said, as a parent, I can totally see why you would be drawn to those types of stories. But just because I don't have kids, I guess what I'm saying is that doesn't mean I'm not drawn to them too. I'm just drawn to a lot of different types of

[03:02:43] stories, and I don't compartmentalize them into, oh, well, that's a love story or a parental story. I don't always look at it that way. I'm more of a, okay, you know, good storytelling, complex characters, interesting relationships. That's what draws me in. Yeah. I read this story when I was just a young girl, so I definitely didn't have children at that time. It hit you hard, right? Yeah.

[03:03:13] Yeah, and I think it's really, I love it when there's women, there's strong women characters, complex is a better word, women characters in shows. Orange is the New Black is one that really stood out to me, just watching that going, oh, wow, it's so weird just to realize how, because as a man, I probably didn't pay attention to it as much as I should have, how unusual it is to have these complex

[03:03:43] female characters who aren't there just to serve as like the girlfriend or something like that, you know? Why is that so unusual? It shouldn't be that unusual, so it's good to see. The last decade has been so good for women in Hollywood, like women characters in Hollywood. We've really seen that. Yeah, an increase in those strong women. Yeah. Or, I mean, I even like when there's women who aren't

[03:04:13] strong and they're just as despicable as any human being, you know, like in Yellowjackets, you know? I mean, Cersei, that's probably why I love Cersei, right? Because she was so developed. They're just human, you know? Yeah. Yeah. And not every character is like a black and white, like good or bad. There's that gray area in the middle that is complicated and often frustrating to watch or exciting to watch. It just

[03:04:47] something more real because people in general are not good or bad. It's the same and it makes it more believable. I think that's one thing that you can look at and think is, yeah, this is a person, this is a human and humans are complicated. Exactly. All right. Kimberly, we've got a couple more. Kimberly Joseph says, overall, I love the season. Episode nine was my favorite. I was okay with how it ended, but I didn't think it was amazing. I know they're leaving it open for the testaments.

[03:05:16] I'm sad it's over. Well put. And finally, Arabella Espinoza says, just finished the most recent podcast episode, and I guess last one for a while. Surprise! And wow! Absolutely agree on how necessary and helpful the Mayday part of the podcast is. I'm so glad you guys decided to do that. It gives me so much hope and this season overall just gave me so much hope as far as where we're at in this country.

[03:05:47] Awesome. I didn't pick that on purpose to be the last one, but it's really great for Arabella. Yeah. What a beautiful We're not actually doing a Mayday segment because it's such a long podcast for this one, but maybe we'll come back with some stuff at some point. Yeah, and if we see anything that we think is worthy of an episode, we could come back and podcast on something similar or we'll leave it open. And we haven't done an episode on Testaments yet, right?

[03:06:17] The book. I don't think we've done an episode on either book, have we? There was a little talk of Testaments and do we have those early episodes in our feed that Lizzie and Diana did? I believe so. I believe so. There might be some talk, but no, I think a full-blown Testaments episode would be great. Yeah, so I think that we'll definitely do that. Yeah, the feed, watch the feed because there may, you know, there may be things coming

[03:06:46] and we don't want you to go too far away. Just keep watch. Yeah, thank you to everyone for all your amazing feedback over the last three seasons that I've been part of the show and even before that. We really have appreciated all the support. Yeah, it's been amazing. Yeah, totally. Really good. This podcast is unlike any of the other podcasts that I've ever been on in some

[03:07:16] pretty particular ways, just sort of the relevancy to what's going on now and the passion behind it and everything. So, really good. Yeah, it's been really special. All right,

[03:07:45] that's our show. Thanks so much for writing in everyone. A couple of things that we want to mention. We have the Mayday Facebook group, which we've already talked about. Link in the show notes. Oh, there's a link in the show notes. We are going to, as part of the Mayday Facebook group, be doing a book club. And right now, I'm hoping to start it in mid-June. That's my plan at the moment. I kind of

[03:08:15] just need to decompress for a week or two from this. Yeah. Because it's been a lot. But that should be coming. If you're already in the Mayday group, watch for the poll because we will be deciding which book we're going to start with. Because we may go back and do the original Handmaid's Tale book, which I've never read. So that could be interesting. And as we said earlier, we will be back for the Testaments TV

[03:08:45] series. We've made a decision. Yeah, definitely. back for that. All right, that's our show. Thanks for listening, everybody. Fighting may not get us everything, but we don't have a choice because not fighting is what got us Gilead in the first place. And Gilead doesn't need to be beaten. It needs to be broken. Don't let the bastards grind you down.