"The Red Sowing" (House of the Dragon S2E7)

[00:00:00] Hey everybody, I'm Wendy. And I'm Vermithor- no, I'm Rennie. And I'm Veronica. And this is Dragoncast, a podcast dedicated to House of the Dragon. This week we are discussing the House of the Dragon S2E7, The Red Sowing.

[00:00:50] I don't think I said this in last week's podcast, but that was my prediction for what the title of this episode would be. Nice. Good fit. And what does the red sowing mean? The sowing of the dragon seeds.

[00:01:04] Some people call it the sowing of the seeds and some people prefer the red sowing because it didn't turn out very well for everyone. Yeah. Understatement. I mean, you got to take the good with the bad. Yeah, there was good.

[00:01:23] I will read the brief synopsis of the episode from Wikipedia. Rhaenera confronts Adam who pledges fealty to her. Dismayed at being removed from the small council, Alicent seeks refuge in the Kingswood to avoid court. Laris pushes Orwell to accelerate Aegonon's recovery while departing the Eyrie with the

[00:01:47] young princes, Rhaena leaves to find the wild dragon. Myceria tells Rhaenera to search for Targaryen dragon seeds, which are illegitimate children of Valyrian blood. In King's Landing as potential dragon riders, now the Lord Paramount, Oscar Tully offers

[00:02:08] Daemon allegiance but denounces his nefarious behavior, demanding he show contrition and mete out justice. Daemon then executes Willem Blackwood for slaughtering the Brackens. Jace challenges Rhaenera, arguing that bastard dragon riders could challenge the Targaryen's power and threaten his succession.

[00:02:29] Rhaenera and Corlys have Elinda and Allan gather and bring Targaryen bastards to Dragonstone, Hugh and Ulf among them. Vermithor kills many dragon seeds until Hugh claims him. Meanwhile, Ulf succeeds in claiming Silverwing and flies over King's Landing bringing out Aemond on Vhagar in pursuit.

[00:02:53] As Aemond nears Dragonstone, he quickly retreats upon seeing Rhaenera with Syrax, Vermithor and Silverwing. Oh yes. That's about the most detailed summary we've ever had. That's because I went to Wikipedia. Like I gave up on HBO and IMDB. I say like almost nothing. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:03:16] I think it's nice to have that big recap. I just want to thank Rima and Kristen and Sam for filling in when we had vacancies. It was really nice to be a listener last week and I got to listen to the podcast and so

[00:03:30] really nice to see or hear everybody. So I just want to thank everybody for doing that. It was really great also to like disconnect and put my phone down mostly for a week. So that was really nice. All right, who wants to go first? Veronica? I can't.

[00:03:48] I'm always so torn of where I want to start. I think I'm going to start with Oscar Tully because that was a blast. Completely unexpected for me was, you know, we saw Oscar previously and he was so meek.

[00:04:06] And so I think that was one of the pieces that was so fun about this was how it really surprised me how he stood up to Damon and the actor. I feel like just killed it the way he played it out. I think this character is really fun.

[00:04:23] I think he is one of the few people we've really seen effectively stand up to Damon. And I think he both angered and frustrated Damon, but also Damon respects that, I think that sort of daring dangerous opposition.

[00:04:45] And so I think it accomplished both garnering Damon's respect while still somewhat dangerous, but also the respect of the other river lords that were there who were questioning, you know, this very young Lord trying to call them all to follow his lead.

[00:05:04] You know, they had the initial conversation back in the room and he just straight up said like, look, we're pledged to Raniera, but they all hate you. You've messed this up. And he was so, you know, he started off with just that absolute directness with him.

[00:05:21] And then when they got out into the courtyard, I thought his speech was fantastic. I really loved how he called Damon out pretty directly because Damon said everyone that they were going to pledge themselves to me, to Damon.

[00:05:38] And he, Oscar in his speech clarified that it was the pledge to Viserys in respect of Raniera. And I thought that was just like chef's kiss speech that he did there. And I loved Simon Strong, all the looks that he was giving Damon, like those were really

[00:06:00] fantastic throughout that. And at the end of that speech, Oscar also reverted to calling Damon my prince. And I thought that was good, you know, because he had been sort of allowing Damon to demand the king title and he'd been acquiescing to that.

[00:06:19] And so I thought it was appropriate at the end of that speech for him to rightfully call him my prince. And then just walked right up and got right in his face and said, will you have us? Yep. I think he was right to have Willem Blackwood beheaded.

[00:06:40] I think it was, again, the only way he was going to get all the River Lords in line, get them to respect him. I thought it was really ballsy though, that he forced Damon into the position to do it.

[00:06:54] And I was curious, I mean, I think we're pretty certain that he beheaded him, but I felt like it was strange the way this scene was shot. Like I rewind it and watch it a few times because I was like, did he just cut his hand off?

[00:07:09] Like the sword fell strange and then they just didn't really show it. Not that they always show a head rolling off, but I didn't know. I think they were meant to think that he beheaded him. That's what I thought, but it was just strange to me.

[00:07:24] Although on first watch, I wasn't sure whether any of that had actually happened because we go right into what I think is going to be Damon's last dream of the series. But yeah, I think that's why that beheading is just a little weird is because we just

[00:07:44] move right into the dream from there. Yeah, but I think that's all that I really had to say about it. Just I loved seeing Damon put in his place. I loved seeing the progression of the storyline at Heron Hall, which feels like we're getting

[00:08:01] to the end of it. And I just absolutely adore Oscar and I think, yeah, it's a great character and a fun actor. He really reminded me of Leanna Mormont. Yes. Yeah, like he's so young, obviously new to their place in life, but ballsy and has obviously been raised.

[00:08:23] He said his grandfather raised him and he's been raised for this moment. He's been prepared for this moment. He's not just ballsy, he's smart. He just outplays Damon brilliantly. Yes, I loved it.

[00:08:38] One thing I did notice is that part of what allows that to happen is that Caraxes is not there. They're in the Godswood, same place where Damon and Alice talked last week. And remember Caraxes was just outside the wall of the Godswood last week, but he wasn't there.

[00:08:57] And on second watch, I looked to make sure Caraxes is not there. Interesting. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. He's less intimidating when he doesn't have his dragon standing behind him. I just love that Oscar like back Damon into a corner where he had no choice.

[00:09:14] And then once he realized what was happening, he was totally on board. He was like, all right, all I got to do is lop this guy's heads off and we're back in action. He was all too happy to do it. Yeah.

[00:09:28] I did wonder, and I don't really want to go too much into what the next scene, because that wasn't part of my point, but I did just wonder how clean of a cut that really was for Damon.

[00:09:41] Because while I think that is very much in his character to jump in and do it, I wondered if there was a piece of him realizing, hey, I like using the sword and fighting, but having

[00:09:53] to make these decisions and navigate bringing people together is maybe not what I'm thriving on. Yeah. It's not his strong point, definitely. All right. I thought that was great. Rennie? Okay. My first point is, come on! Yes! It's the bonding of the dragons.

[00:10:22] I thought that Hugh's bonding with Vermithor was just about perfect. And now the shot of Rhaenyra standing in front of Vermithor that we saw in the trailer, now that makes sense. I could never figure out why she was standing in front of Vermithor rather than Syrax, and

[00:10:44] now we know where that comes from. And when Rhaenyra walks up to Vermithor and puts her hand on Vermithor's nose, and the camera cuts back to Hugh, the look we see on Hugh's face is not fear. It's desire. He wants that dragon.

[00:11:06] Formax is known as the surliest and nastiest of living dragons. And he's an angry dragon. And so when Hugh just stands there and dares him, dares Vermithor to burn him, that's when Vermithor says, oh, I think I like you. You might be my guy.

[00:11:33] And that just works so beautifully. I'm not as happy about Ulf's bonding with Silverwing. In the Inside the Episode, Ryan Condal said he didn't want the dragon claimings to all be the same thing over and over. And I think they might have overdone that just a little bit.

[00:11:59] Ulf's falling into a pool of dragon poop was just too slapstick. And when he steps on the egg, that was positively something out of Alien. Yeah, with the goo. Yeah. I really didn't like it on first watch. Liked a little bit better on second watch.

[00:12:22] I get why they did it. I get why they didn't want to be repetitive. And then the dragon army at the end. Wowza. So exciting. The show has just leveled up. Yeah, the look on Aemon's face was just priceless. Yes. It was so worth everything. Yes.

[00:12:42] Yeah, it was great. This is the most dragon action we've ever seen. I think I understand why this season's only eight episodes. Because all of their money has gone into those dragons. They look really good. They really do. I'm like a super, I really don't like visual effects.

[00:13:08] Usually it draws me out immediately. I've struggled with it even in season one of the show a few times. I'm not being pulled out. I'm all in. I think the dragons look amazing. They really do.

[00:13:23] And if you watch the inside of the episode, they always have these blue screen dragon heads that somebody operates so the actors can get the eye line right and actually touch. And they have really got that perfected. It's amazing how they look.

[00:13:42] It really looks to me like there's a dragon there. I was actually pretty critical, I would say, of the last two episodes with the scenes and things. I really felt like this was not Game of Thrones level production.

[00:13:58] But I do think it's because they saved all the money up for the last 20-25 minute scene, which was glorious and worth it. But I have noticed that some of the other productions just really seem flimsy. You know, really just kind of low production.

[00:14:19] You're seeing a door or in this episode, we saw Alison in the woods. That was so weird. Not expensive productions for most of that. And I think you can tell, but I guess you can't have everything. I guess not. I guess HBO only has so much money.

[00:14:41] Hugh made me the happiest. There's a guy who deserves a little slice of happiness in his life. A little slice of happiness in the form of the second biggest dragon on earth. Yeah, it seems like he's had a hard go of it.

[00:14:56] And he was worthy, especially because in the end, he was protecting one of the other people. And I mean, he's just really worthy. But I will say, Ulf probably gave me the most enjoyment. I was like, well, who's coming? What dragon is that? What are they doing?

[00:15:14] And of course, it's Ulf back to show his drinking buddies exactly what happened. And I just, it was hilarious. I loved it. I wrote in my notes that if I was a dragon, I would want Hugh to be my rider.

[00:15:31] He just like, I don't know, he's who I would have chosen out of that, right? Like he looks like a warrior. And that moment when he yelled, I mean, that's why I love fantasy series are for those brave, brave hero moments.

[00:15:45] He pushed someone else out, looks a dragon in the face and screams like, I mean, that's what I'm here for. I loved it. And I see what you're saying, Randy, about Ulf. But I still really liked it.

[00:15:59] And I think in my head, Ulf started to remind me a bit of a hobbit. And he just went sort of, you know, running off with his torch and, you know, accidentally stepped in an egg and gets pushed over into the mud.

[00:16:13] Like it just felt, I felt fondly for him the way I might Pippin. And it was funny because as soon as Silverwing came out, I feel like Silverwing's horns also reminded me a bit of a Balrog.

[00:16:26] And so I was just like, Oh, I'm in Middle Earth right now. Enjoying, enjoying two of my worlds colliding. So I still, I thought it was sort of endearing seeing Ulf's experience and sort of how clumsy and different it was juxtaposed to Hughes sort of bravery.

[00:16:47] And I wonder how he came to fly over King's Landing. Like was Rhaenery like, why don't you go over there and just say hi? Or was he just completely out of control? Right? Yeah, I don't. I'm curious. I've seen people say both.

[00:17:03] Or he was just hanging on to wherever that dragon took him. Yeah. Could be either one. Yeah. So what do you guys expect? That was one of the points I had was just talking about the Dragon Riders in general. I watched last week's episode with my family.

[00:17:20] And we're all way deep into this at this point, all of us. And they all thought that Adam was going to immediately go over to the greens. And I didn't. I was like, why would he do that? I don't get that.

[00:17:35] I mean, like he's not happy with the way Corlys has treated him. And he's going to go over to the greens. But I truly thought exactly what happened was what was going to happen. I thought he was going to swear fealty to Rhaenery.

[00:17:54] And I was really glad to see that. I thought it would happen just the way it did. And he seemed really honored and excited about this dragon just choosing him. And him being able to come into this more elevated position. And I really liked that part of it.

[00:18:19] And I still don't understand why we needed all those disjointed scenes ahead of time. Because I don't think it really helped us understand. But I'm really glad that we now know. I like his character. I'm excited to see what happens.

[00:18:35] He's probably going to die in the first five minutes of the next scene. But I really liked it. And then it seems like Rhaena is trying to bond with a dragon at the Vale. So we could have a dragon rider there.

[00:18:51] That seemed really strange to me that she just could wander off and nobody in that caravan would notice that she was gone. That was a little strange to me as well.

[00:19:02] There's been a lot of scenes like that, that you're like, I just don't get the point of this scene. Or even if I get the point and know where they're going, it's just like, this isn't feasible.

[00:19:14] Like Rhaenyra sneaking into King's Landing and then this episode, a mass exodus of silver haired people all leaving King's Landing and nobody notices. Where'd all the blondes go? Yeah. They're filming shampoo commercials on Dragonstone. But I guess I have this question.

[00:19:33] Why does it seem like Corlys favors Alan and not Adam? All these scenes are still confusing to me. Like, I feel like there's something we're supposed to be getting from that that we're not.

[00:19:44] And I know he comes to Alan and basically offers him like, hey, do you want to try to be a dragon rider too? Even the scene between him and Adam was odd.

[00:19:55] It was just, I just don't understand what they're trying to get us to know by all of that. But like, so if he has two illegitimate sons from the same woman, why does he talk to one and ignores the other?

[00:20:10] Like it just doesn't make a lot of sense. Is it supposed to make sense? I mean, all I've picked up from that, and I'm really curious Rhaenyra's interpretation as well.

[00:20:21] But it's just that he's closer because Alan has served with him and Alan pulled him from the sea and rescued him. And so they have just had more sort of exposure to each other.

[00:20:37] And so I just assumed he sort of felt closer to him because he spent time with him. That's all I can come up with. Yeah. And I think Alan is more compliant, more willing. He's not asking for anything from Corlys.

[00:20:54] Adam is more distant and aloof because he has more of a sense of being mistreated. And so that just adds to Corlys' keeping his distance from Adam, I think. I don't know.

[00:21:10] It feels like, as you were saying, Veronica, there's a big dynamic that they want us to figure out. But I don't think there's enough there to really figure it out. I mean, obviously, Corlys was keeping them under wraps while Rhaenys was alive. But she knew.

[00:21:31] And Rhaenys said, oh, you should lift Alan up. You should elevate him. And Corlys still doesn't do that even after Rhaenys is gone. So I think he's ashamed of having bastard children. Yeah. That's sad. It bothered me that he's on Team Black this deep into things.

[00:21:52] He's the Hand of the Queen. And he didn't realize the importance of explaining to her who Adam was. I know. So that she could understand a bit more about why Seasmoke might have claimed him.

[00:22:08] I just felt like that was very irresponsible and possibly even a bit out of character. I mean, the shame makes sense. He is a very proud man. Well, Adam doesn't admit it to her either. No. Right.

[00:22:25] But I don't know if Adam would have the understanding of sort of why that's so important for her to know as far as understanding who might be a good selection to go try and... Yeah.

[00:22:39] Adam kind of gets his little dig in at his father by saying that his father is no one of consequence. I thought he was saying he was no one of consequence. No, he said his father was no one of consequence. Oh. Yeah.

[00:22:53] He says his mother was a shipwright and his father was, and then he pauses and says, no one of consequence. But maybe that's him not telling Corlys' secrets either. Yeah. Maybe he knows Corlys would not want that. Yeah.

[00:23:08] It does seem like they're trying to convey something that they're just not quite getting. I agree. Yeah. And it does seem like a really important detail to know that he's Laenor's half-brother. Yes. And that that has got to have affected Seasmoke's choice. Yeah.

[00:23:25] You smell like my old master. Because, you know, we were talking about last week, I think, about kind of breaking from the idea that you have to be blood of the dragon. And so one explanation could be Seasmoke's extreme pain at missing Laenor, and he's like,

[00:23:44] well, this doesn't smell like blood of the dragon, but it smells like my rider who was blood of the dragon. Mm-hmm. But then there was also that conversation with Alan where Corlys suggested perhaps there could be Targaryen blood on their mother's side as well. Yes.

[00:24:00] And that could also make sense. Maybe he has a little bit of both. And so maybe it's not even breaking with the Targaryen blood of the dragon canon. Yes. Yeah, I agree. Back to you, Veronica?

[00:24:12] I actually had a few more things just talking about what makes a dragon rider and that theme. So I'll just continue on with that a little bit more. I thought it was interesting how all of these discussions around dragon seeds really brought

[00:24:31] out the class divide and the prejudice of the royal family against the small folk. And I was impressed with sort of how patient Mysaria was with Rhaenyra while she was trying to get Rhaenyra to come around and sort of realize how she was acting.

[00:24:49] But then we also saw it from Jace, who obviously Jace, his emotions were being really driven by his fear around his inheritance, but still his frustration at someone who's not highborn claiming a dragon was really pulled out there.

[00:25:07] When Rhaenyra brings all of these dragon seeds in to talk to them and we see... What's the name of the order of dragon trainers? Oh, the dragon keepers. Yeah. It seems like the dragon keepers, this is more than a job.

[00:25:26] This is a bit of a religion to them, which makes sense because of how highly dragons are sort of up there, I feel like with the gods as well as Targaryens. But I thought it was interesting how they so strongly disagreed with the decision to

[00:25:40] do this and walked away from it. Yeah, I already mentioned sort of the craziness of the mass exodus of blondes from King's Landing after she decided to raise an army of bastards. I just thought it was interesting sort of thinking through what could make a dragon rider.

[00:25:58] It seems like certainly we found out that Hugh is a very close lineage Targaryen, right? Like his blood is not diluted. Right. Rhaeny, I'm not sure I fully understood what he was saying. This was a sister of Daemon and Viserys?

[00:26:18] Which means that it's the child of King Jaehaerys. He's claiming to be a grandson of King Jaehaerys, which I don't know about that. I thought that was- But that's who it'd have to be.

[00:26:32] If his mother was Viserys and Daemon's half sister, that means they would have to have the same father and that father is King Jaehaerys. Because King Jaehaerys was pretty in love with his wife. Exactly. And when she passed, he was pretty old.

[00:26:50] Probably not out at the pleasure houses. And I don't feel like Hugh would be as old as he was if it had been a post. Yeah. Anyways. Yeah. Per show canon, he's very closely related to royal Targaryens, I guess. Yes.

[00:27:08] And then I was trying to remember what Ulf's claims were that we heard. That was the first or second episode of this season. His is exactly the same claim. Okay. Okay. Right? He says that Daemon and Viserys are his half brothers. Yeah. Interesting.

[00:27:27] So different than Hugh, who's the son of the- That's right. Oh, that's right. That's right. Yeah. I thought it was really funny because I thought, oh, this is going to go, this guy, obvious.

[00:27:38] As soon as they start talking about it, you can see the look on his face. He's not sure that what he's been bragging about all these years is real. And in fact, I think he may think that it's not real. And it is. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:27:54] But when you're suddenly faced with a dragon, you're going to be a little scared about that family story that's been told. I just thought that was hilarious. Just the look on his face when they started talking about it. He's like, oh. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:28:08] He says, oh, I can't go. My leg, I hurt my leg. Oh, I can't go because I don't know. I'm not sure if it's true. Oh, I can't go. Oh, shoot. I guess I got to go.

[00:28:17] And of course, Hugh, who we never heard him talk about that before, is the one who's been keeping it on the down low. Yes. But we've seen his hair from the first time that we met him. So. Yes.

[00:28:33] And last episode, man, they really were like, I feel like he was in a Pantene commercial last episode swinging his hair around like, look, look. It is glorious. Yes. I thought for sure it was going to end with Ulf getting eaten. Yeah.

[00:28:49] So I was very surprised at the end when we see him. Especially when he broke the egg. I was like, oh no, that seems like a bad thing. Yeah. And I don't think they could have done that though because it would have been funny at

[00:29:06] that point if he got eaten and they're not playing getting eaten by dragons for laughs. So I don't think they would have done that. Right. Right. That's all I had to add on to the discussion of dragon riders.

[00:29:21] Well, my next point follows really well on yours, Veronica, which because it's not easy being Jace. Oh, buddy. Yeah. So he had the idea of looking for noble born people with Targaryen blood to be dragon riders.

[00:29:37] And he's really pissed about the idea of opening it up to common born people, particularly bastards. He tells his mother outright, I know I'm a bastard. And what were you thinking? He practically says, if you were going to have an affair with somebody, why didn't you

[00:29:54] pick a blonde? Because he says, did you not think that I might have dark hair? And that's such a marker of not being a Targaryen that Jace really leans on the fact that he

[00:30:08] and his three dark haired or his two dark haired brothers, all three of them, they all have dragons, which legitimizes their claim to being Targaryens. Of course, they are Targaryens because they're Rhaenyra's. Yeah.

[00:30:23] But the fact of the dragon is really what shores up Jace's claim to being Rhaenyra's heir because he is a Targaryen dragon rider. And if you make, if you democratize dragon riding, if you make it more available to people

[00:30:43] who don't have, you know, nobility, then that just adds fuel to the fire of people who are calling Jace a bastard and not the true heir. And it's really understandable why that would upset him.

[00:30:59] And if you think about the larger picture, they just really have torn the lid off of something because we've heard Rhaenyra say in season one, Targaryens are closer to gods than to men.

[00:31:13] But if anybody from Flea Bottom, if Ulf the White, also known as Ulf the Sod, can claim a dragon, then how special is it to be a Targaryen? How much closer to gods than men are Targaryens if someone with some Targaryen blood, but

[00:31:33] no nobility on their mother's side or in their upbringing can claim a dragon? It demystifies, it takes away part of the mystique of dragon riding. The Targaryens are, they're Targaryen supremacists, right? They're racists. They openly say Targaryens are better.

[00:31:54] If you start picking away at that, then it opens the whole doctrine of Targaryen exceptionalism, as it's called in the books, which allows Targaryens to practice incestuous marriage despite the fact that the Faith of the Seven outlaws that.

[00:32:13] If you demystify Targaryen specialness, the House of Cards falls down. So Jace is right that his mother is creating a revolution that's maybe not in their best interest. Maybe it's in the best interest of the common people in the long term, but it sure isn't

[00:32:32] in Targaryen best interest. Yeah. Bothered me how quickly she brushed him off, even if she was going to make a different decision because she is trying to stop this war. I think either approach could be rationalized, but the way she just sort of was like, oh,

[00:32:50] I hate this. I don't like talking about this. Well, you know, it just sort of bothered me. And her saying that we're gonna, we're gonna get riders for these dragons. We're going to arm these nuclear weapons and that'll be a deterrent and we won't have a war.

[00:33:06] No, we know it doesn't work that way. Yeah. I think she believes that though. That's still what she wants. And I think she, I do think like it's survival at this point. Yes. Oh yes.

[00:33:19] Rhaenyra loves Jace much more so than most examples of mothers and children in Westeros. True. But she has put Jace in this really difficult predicament in that he knows that he's not a legitimate child and even more so because they had Harwin in their lives.

[00:33:42] So it was obvious to him, like, it's great that you had this loving, caring father figure, but at the same time that really sealed the deal that that's our dad and not that guy who is supposed to be our dad.

[00:33:55] And I think he's just in this impossible situation of where he's not supposed to talk about it. He's not supposed to admit it. He's supposed to hide it. He's supposed to be somebody that he's not for the rest of his life. Yes.

[00:34:12] And that is awful and no one should have to do that. I'm not blaming Rhaenyra because again, what else was she going to do at that point? She's going to sleep with a Lannister. They're blonde. Well, there you go. But nobody's in Jace's position like Jace is.

[00:34:34] He's the heir to the throne and he knows he's not legitimate. And I just can't imagine the inner turmoil that that has caused poor Jace. Yeah. No, I love what they're doing with his character because he is facing those contradictions

[00:34:54] and he's trying to do the best that he can, but he is in an impossible situation. And he's doing it all by serving face. Yeah. Jace the face. Yep. Yep. I don't think it's Jace being an elitist.

[00:35:12] I think it's Jace looking down on bastards because he knows that's what he is. I think that's what it is. I don't think it's him being royalty. I think it's him not even wanting to touch that. Yeah. And maybe, you know, it's interesting.

[00:35:29] They haven't emphasized a lot in the show the Westerosi attitude towards bastards, but there's a huge amount of prejudice towards bastards that they're not trustworthy, that they are devious, that because they are born out of sin, they are themselves sinful. Jace knows all those assumptions. Yep.

[00:35:53] And I did think it was interesting. Jace is already seeming to not like Myceria. Yeah. Like, you could tell by the way he talked about her. Almost reminded me of Melisandre with... Stannis. Stannis. How could I forget Stannis?

[00:36:11] The way they all kind of looked at Melisandre with Stannis, it was like this foreigner, this interloper who's got the queen's ear, especially after last week. So they're really building up the tension. I'm loving it. Yeah. Yes.

[00:36:28] I did think in addition to not really loving how she dismissed Jace's valid fears, I also thought like, yeah, you're having this important conversation with Myceria, but should you really be not meeting with your small council at all too? Like that disappointed me in her a bit.

[00:36:49] I don't like her small council. Well, her council has been... Yeah. That's true. But she needs to be standing as a figurehead to them and forcing them to respect her. The last interaction she had, a man was burned to death by a dragon and then she slapped

[00:37:04] one of them. Which is still a better day than the people in Westeros are having or the people in King's Landing are having. So I'll just get to it, right? You know I'm going to talk about it. Alicent. I really thought she was going to kill herself.

[00:37:24] I thought she was preparing to kill herself. She was going to put stones in her pockets and walk into the sea and that was going to be the end of Alicent, which I could kind of see.

[00:37:37] I mean, I don't know what the future holds for her, but I could kind of see that ending happening now because it so seems like there's nothing left for her to do.

[00:37:49] And I hope I'm very wrong about that and I hope we see Alicent rise again and face down some of those men in her life. But I could be, you know, I could be wrong but it just did seem odd.

[00:38:03] She said she didn't know if she was ever going to go back and that's why I was like, she's getting ready to kill herself. What are you doing, dude? But then I don't think that's what it was, right? I think she was just getting away. Having a retreat.

[00:38:19] Yeah. Alicent's one of my points as well so I'm just going to pick up from there if that's okay. Orwyle's cleaning up the cut that she got on her arm in the little riot last week, which

[00:38:31] is in exactly the same place as where she cut Rhaenyra in season one. Same arm, same place. And Orwyle says to Alicent that she'll have a scar but that it will be easily hidden, which I thought was a very interesting line.

[00:38:49] I wasn't entirely sure what they were doing with Alicent in this episode. Let's go out to the Kingswood expedition struck me as very strange, but this is what I think. When she goes out into the lake, the sky is reflected in the water.

[00:39:07] It looks like she's in the sky. It looks like she's flying as much as floating. She opens her eyes and looks up into the sky and there's a hawk or some big bird soaring like a dragon. I think this was a kind of symbolic rebirth for Alicent.

[00:39:27] And I think she's going to go back and kick some butt. I'm ready for it. Kick some sun butt. They need some butt kicking. And she may, this is not something that I know from the books because the show is doing this very differently from the books.

[00:39:45] But she may go and reform some sort of alliance with Lary's to try to help rehabilitate Aegon to use Aegon against Aemond. Yeah, that would make a lot of sense. Well poor Aegon definitely needs a mother's love. I got no sympathy for Aegon. He's a monster.

[00:40:09] It's so hard to remember that because they've done such a good job this season of creating empathy for him. Yes. But I'm like, wait, he's a total turd. He raped girls. He's drunk all the time. He leaves his own bastards in the fighting pits. Oh yeah.

[00:40:27] Oh my gosh, I forgot about that. He's a monster. I need them at the beginning of each episode to flash all those scenes again so that I don't feel so bad for him. Yeah. He hugs at my heart strings. Yeah.

[00:40:40] You know, I had no idea where they were going with Alyson other than just she's feeling the full impacts of all the decisions that she's made that have helped lead up to this point.

[00:40:51] And Wendy, I know you mentioned like lower budget because they are just in the woods, but man, I found these scenes really stunning. Just absolutely beautiful. He's so beautiful. Yeah, she's gorgeous. She's riding through lush woods. She has her hair down. She's on this gorgeous white horse.

[00:41:09] Yeah, on second watch I definitely enjoyed all of that. On first watch I really thought she was going to die. So I was really worried. But yes, on second watch when I could relax a minute about the scene, it was very beautiful. Yeah.

[00:41:28] She walked to the wildflowers and just her floating on the lake and the overhead shot of it. I just thought it was all really beautiful. For some reason, it didn't occur to me that she might try to commit suicide there. And so I wasn't worried about that.

[00:41:43] But now that you say it, I'm almost surprised that I wasn't worried about it the way that was playing out. I think I had just watched something about people putting stones in their pockets and going into the sea.

[00:41:55] I can't remember what it was, but I had just watched something not Game of Thrones. And so that's immediately where my head went. And I was like, especially when she said, I don't know if I'll ever go back. Yes. It's like, where are you going?

[00:42:10] And her wearing the white and walking out into the water, it's very Ophelia reminiscent. Yes, I think that undertone is definitely there. But I think if that was in her mind at all, she definitely decided not to go that direction. I agree. Veronica? I'll just sort of go.

[00:42:34] So I had that little snippet about Alyson and how beautiful I thought those scenes were. And then I just had a whole list of all the scenes that just stunned me with the dragons. And so I just wanted to go through some of those.

[00:42:48] And then I also have the team black and team green dragon lineup written out in case that's helpful. I can go through that. Let's do it. So first, all the pretty dragons, the opening shot of the episode. All the pretty horses only it's all the dragons.

[00:43:07] That opening shot of Cyrax and Seasmoke on the beach. I mean, they're really like very similar in size dragons and just so beautiful. Like I wrote, they feel like fire and salt, you know, facing each other. And I thought that was gorgeous and exciting moment.

[00:43:26] And having secondhand excitement through Adam's face in that scene also, I thought just added to everything. Like Reni already mentioned that moment of Rhaenyra calling Vermithor and standing there in front of the Bronze Fury as it's right behind her. I thought was so just really a badass moment.

[00:43:50] And Vermithor was chasing down all the people and it really just felt like a scene out of Jurassic Park to me. And yeah, just really terrifying and fun to watch despite people being massacred. It was like a cat playing with mice.

[00:44:08] And then that shot of Rhaenyra looking down at Hugh as he was accepted by Vermithor and he's kneeling with his hand on Vermithor's nose, I thought was also just like a mouth open shot.

[00:44:22] I already talked about what I loved about Silverwing and Ulf and how I felt like it was a Balrog moment. But I also the other thing I liked about something about Silverwing both the way Silverwing looks

[00:44:36] and I think particularly the vocalizations that they gave to Silverwing kind of combined to make meeting Silverwing feel really exciting. Something about the noises, I don't know if you guys are familiar with How to Train Your Dragon. Oh, absolutely.

[00:44:53] But Toothless, the main dragon, something about Silverwing gave me Toothless vibes. And so I love How to Train Your Dragon. I think all those things made me very excited about meeting Silverwing. Is this the first time we've seen Silverwing? Yes. I think so. Yeah.

[00:45:13] And it turns out Silverwing is actually Vermithor's mate. Wow. Yes. When I looked it up. Okay. So they're still hatching little eggs. Yeah. They were the dragons of old King Jaehaerys and good Queen Alysanne. And Jaehaerys and Alysanne were, you know, they were brother and sister and married.

[00:45:35] They were mostly a very loving couple, although they had a couple of famous fights and split up for a couple of years. But Vermithor and Silverwing are known to sleep curled around one another and to hang out with one another as a reflection of their former riders. Wow.

[00:45:57] I had two more dragon scenes. Yeah. I love, and we've already seen this happen once, but I could see this every episode and not get sick of it. Vhagar emerging from greenery, just sort of standing up and you see like moss and leaves sort of shaking off.

[00:46:15] I just think it's, Vhagar will never not be impressive. Do I think she's beautiful? No. Do I think she is terrifying and awesome to behold? Yes. Especially when she gets going with all those holes in her wings. Yeah.

[00:46:31] And I think Aemond is so fun to watch ride the dragon. The way that actor is playing that, it feels so spot on for the character and just no one else is as entertaining to watch ride a dragon, I think, as he is. I agree.

[00:46:47] It also feels like he doesn't have full control of Vhagar. Yeah. How could you look at that thing? No one could have full control of Vhagar at this point. But I don't think anybody else could have played Aemond. I think Ewan Mitchell is just perfect. Yeah.

[00:47:03] I mean, knocking it out of the park. Just that smug look with that eye patch on and the scar and it's just so good. I love it so much. Yeah. And then we already mentioned it but I want to say it again, Rhaenyra standing there as

[00:47:19] Aemond flies away with Syrags, Vermithor, and Silverwing in the background. That was just such an epic moment and yeah, that was our dragon queen. I'm just so sorry Jace wasn't there with her, you know?

[00:47:35] So speaking of that, let's go through all the dragons that Team Black now has. So we have Rhaenyra who's on Syrax with golden scales. Who's like a middle-aged dragon. Yes. Yeah. So that's the egg that Rhaenyra hatched, right? With her as a baby.

[00:47:58] And Syrax also has that beautiful heart-like medallion on her harness which I think is just really sweet. And then we have Daemon on Caraxes if he ever gets himself together and comes back, which I think he is. And so Caraxes is also known as the blood worm.

[00:48:14] It's got blood red scales and that crazy weird long neck. I don't think Caraxes is my favorite dragon but impressive. Yes. Lots of battle experience. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And then we have Jace on Vermax which we have seen is a young dragon with green scales but very young.

[00:48:34] Again an egg that hatched with Jace. Bela is on Moondancer. I can't remember, what does Moondancer look like? She's a lighter color, right? Yeah, she's kind of white and green and she has that kind of mohawk. Oh, right, right. She's pretty. Adam is on Seasmoke.

[00:48:54] So that's that pale silvery gray dragon that's about the same size as Rhaenyra's Cyrax. Then now we have Ulf on Silverwing, Hugh on Vermithor, and potentially Rhaena is trying to grab the dragon that's loose in the veil.

[00:49:12] And so that's one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight dragons if Rhaena can get that. Eight flyable dragons. Correct. And they also have babies. Yes. At least two babies, right? Yes. Joffrey, the younger brother of Jace, his dragon's called Tyraxes, too young to ride.

[00:49:33] And Aegon the Younger's Stormcloud which is just a little baby. A pocket dragon. I want a pocket dragon. Yeah. Yeah. So then on team green we have Aemond on Vhagar which is the queen of all dragons. Really very experienced and huge.

[00:49:52] And then we've heard talk of Daeron on Tessarion but we have not seen either of those two yet. Who just started flying so he can't be much use, right? Jace and Daeron were born very close together. Yeah. And they actually even shared a vet nurse.

[00:50:14] And so I would imagine their dragons are very similar in age. Was Jace even born after Daeron? But Jace's dragon's been flying for years and Daeron's, they said, just started flying. I think it's a matter of when the dragons hatched because Vermax, Jace's dragon was born in 114.

[00:50:37] Tessarion was born in 120. Okay. So I bet, yeah. Yeah. I think it's just a matter of when the cradle eggs hatched. They don't all hatch at the same time. Right. So they're all hatched earlier than Tessarion. And then technically, Helene has Dreamfire. Yes.

[00:50:54] Although we've never seen her ride Dreamfire. But so all told that's eight, nine, 10, 11 dragons with riders currently plus two babies. Wow. Dreamfire is an older and larger dragon too. She was not hatched by Helene from an egg. Helene claimed an older dragon that-

[00:51:15] Which is hard to kind of imagine. With what we know of Helene. Yeah. But how interesting is it that Helene, who we think has some sort of visions of the future that her dragon is named Dreamfire? I know. How appropriate. Yeah. 11 dragons.

[00:51:34] How many are we going to see survive? The blacks now have far more, but how many does it take to- Kill Vhagar. Equal Vhagar. Yeah. And how do you do it, right? Do you send all your nukes out at once and call them to heal?

[00:51:54] Do you hold some back? Yeah. It's going to be interesting. Yeah. We're going to have to find out. All right. That was all I had about the dragons. All right. Reni? That was my last point that what I added on about Alicent to your previous point.

[00:52:12] I had a couple little things. There's a lot in this episode about the small folk and in general, in the last few episodes, there's been a lot about the small folk. I've really been enjoying that arc. I think it's really exciting to see.

[00:52:29] And it takes Myrceria, who Rhaenyra kind of newly trusts, for Rhaenyra to realize that the lowborn are a place that she can look for allies. And when she tries to explain why that wouldn't occur to her, it really is because she thinks

[00:52:51] that only royalty and the houses and the intermarriage in this whole culture they have are what keeps people loyal. And it takes Myrceria to see her look at it in a different way. And she starts to realize that, yeah, my brothers are trying to kill me.

[00:53:13] So maybe loyalty isn't what I need from my kin. Maybe I need to look somewhere else for that. And then the other note I had is in one of the scenes we see that we see Laerys and Jasper, where they're talking about Seasmoke having a rider.

[00:53:33] And in the background, we see this scene of what looks like two of the Kingsguards being sent to the Wall. And Aemon is out there doing it himself. And my question was, are these Aegon's buddies? Yes. I think so.

[00:53:48] Yes, they're being sent to the Wall for their incompetent handling of causing the riot. Yeah. Yeah. I just think that's funny. Those guys sure rose to power quickly and now headed for the Wall. They'll have some stories to talk about, I guess.

[00:54:08] And then when I love a show, I'm very forgiving of it. And I do love this show, especially when you're podcasting on something. I feel like you really dig into it and you love it.

[00:54:17] But I just have to say, I think it's been a huge misstep of this show to have Daemon hallucinating through Harrenhal for seven episodes. I just don't know how they thought that was going to land. I'm looking online. I don't see anybody who really likes any of that.

[00:54:38] And I just think it's... I mean, Daemon, he's such an incredible character. We had to have been able to do something better than this. And I did like this episode with Oskar Tully, who kind of stole the show from everybody. Patti Considine. So I did like that.

[00:54:57] I hope we're done. I think we're done. Yeah. I just can't believe they let it go on for seven episodes. What this whole arc has been about is bringing Daemon back to supporting Rhaenyra, abandoning his usurping thoughts.

[00:55:14] And I think that last scene has brought him where he needs to be. Yeah. I mean, I almost wonder, did the actor have another gig or something? It's just so odd that they did it that way.

[00:55:26] No, there's a source material issue, which is that basically Daemon goes to Harrenhal in the book, just like he does in the show. And the armies just start rallying to him and he just sits there and waits for the armies to show up. So he has... Right.

[00:55:42] He does nothing. Has nothing to do for this whole time. We just hear in the book that he's off at Harrenhal and the armies are gathering. So they had to think up something to do with him. And this is what they thought of.

[00:55:52] I think it could have been done better. That's my critique. I feel like it would have been nice if we just had a Christmas Carol over two or three episodes. He gets all of those visions. Yes. Sort of clumped more one after the other. Yeah.

[00:56:10] I mean, I am a diehard Daemon fan. You guys know. I finally, last week, reached my limit with this storyline. Prior to that, I was like, I'm not loving it, but I'm still here for Daemon. But it's just a waste. I'm glad he's having an emotional journey.

[00:56:28] I am. I do appreciate that when that happens with a character, and I think it's going to make more sense if he has gone through all this to understand how he could come back and actually help Rhaenyra to accomplish this. He was just such a confident, badass character.

[00:56:54] And this has really, you know, he's just been wandering out of his mind. And Harrenhal is what it feels like. Right. Yeah. So I'm in the distinct minority. I've actually really liked all these dream visions that he's been having. Well, I'm glad. I do like the visions.

[00:57:16] I don't like the stagnant, how torn up he is and how long it's been taking. But I have loved the point of each of the visions. I've loved seeing people this week. We finally got Viserys with his emaciated self and his decrepit face.

[00:57:37] I'd been expecting that last time he showed up. And so I thought that was excellent. And I was watching the post show interviews and that was actually Patti Constantine who pushed to have that makeup.

[00:57:51] And I felt like that was so it was appropriate for that scene, I think, because he was talking about the weight of the crown and the responsibility and the way it destroys you.

[00:58:02] And I thought it was also really smart how they went straight from that vision and flipped on to Aegon trying to do physical therapy and falling and just another reflection of someone who the crown has led to their destruction.

[00:58:24] Obviously a very different path than what happened to Viserys. But I have enjoyed it. I've enjoyed the point of all of the visions he's had, just some of the in-between stuff. Like him not realizing, oh, maybe don't drink the drinks that Alice Rivers gives you.

[00:58:44] Stuff like that bothers me about it. So I think that the Harrenhal scenes are something that are going to read better on a binge watch than on a week-to-week watch where you're waiting to see what's going to happen next and wanting the plot to advance. You're right.

[00:58:59] I agree. I had one other note if nobody else does. Go for it. I just had noted that it really seems the master of whispers is really who's running the show. I mean, the small council to an extent too.

[00:59:17] But I mean, if you think back to Game of Thrones as well, they hold so much quiet power and have really... While the perception is that bloodline is what dictates who's ruling, we know that's not true.

[00:59:35] We see people taken out from the seat all the time, and often through the plotting of the lords in the small council, and particularly the master of whispers. And I think we saw that again, the impact that they can have this episode when they

[00:59:54] withheld information from Aemond and how they've been conspiring to help Aegon recover. I clocked that Laerys told... It's Maester... What's his name? Orwyle. I noticed that Laerys told Maester Orwyle at the end there, like, hey, I'll make sure the sentry gives you more warning next time.

[01:00:16] And so they are trying to be cautious. I'm assuming that Aemond does not become aware of the progress that Aegon is making. And so, you know, just another way that Laerys is kind of controlling the show a bit from behind the scenes.

[01:00:32] I mean, obviously not completely, like not everything, because Aemond wouldn't be in power if he was fully controlling everything, I think. But it was just interesting to see 150 years prior and see sort of the same thing that

[01:00:47] the importance of this role, and not necessarily to support the royals, but to support the realm, and to try to do whatever that person thinks is best for the realm. Although I am not trying to say Laerys is anywhere as well intentioned, I think, as...

[01:01:07] What's from Game of Thrones? What's his name? Varys. Oh my gosh. Yeah, Varys. I was going to say Maesterus. I was like, that's right, Varys. So I'm not trying to put Varys in the same category as Laerys, because I like Varys quite a bit more.

[01:01:24] No, I think he's in the same category as Littlefinger. Yeah. You think Laerys is Littlefinger? Yes, because I think Laerys is much more interested in his own power and prestige, the same as Littlefinger was.

[01:01:39] Whereas I think Varys really did, I think similar possibly at least to what we've seen of Messaria, really cares about the realm and the small folk, and is making decisions based on that. Yeah, that was my only other note.

[01:01:57] Oh, I just had one other small observation from the inside the episode. So the weirwood tree in the Godswood has a face carved into it. And that face is George RR Martin. No! Yes. Which one? The weirwood tree at Harrenhal. In Harrenhal? Yeah.

[01:02:20] I'm going to have to go back and look. That's really funny. Yes, there's a making of series called The House that Dragons Built. And it's in there. And there's a little moment of Ryan Condal taking George RR Martin out on the set and

[01:02:38] showing him that that's his face. That's really cool. Pretty cool. All right. Any other notes? Actually, I lied. I have one other one. Yeah, go for it. There was a quote that Damon says to Oscar and he says, I don't need their love. I need their swords.

[01:02:56] And I thought that statement was such perfect juxtaposition to Rhaenyra, who at another point in the episode is so concerned that she needs to feel certain that she can trust that the Dragon Riders have actual fealty and loyalty to her. They're not just a swordsman.

[01:03:16] I think to her, she knows that that respect and love is important to it. And I just thought that juxtaposition really summed up the two of their leadership styles. Well, we can start on some news about House of the Dragon. Okay, this is from Variety.

[01:03:38] The title is House of the Dragon. Clinton Liberty and Abu Bakr Saleem on Adam and Alan's dragon seed choices for Corlys and what happened to Laenor Valerian. Clinton Liberty and Abu Bakr Saleem speak with Variety about the Hull Brothers' roles in

[01:03:57] the Dance of the Dragons as the end of House of the Dragon Season 2 approaches. By the end of the episode, what do you think it takes to bond with dragon? Targaryen blood, strength or something else? Clinton Liberty who plays Adam.

[01:04:13] I feel like it's a combination of different things because as we saw, Steffan Darklyn, he had the blood of the Highborn sort of family. But Seasmoke could sense that the essence of the human wasn't quite what Seasmoke was

[01:04:25] looking for, which made me understand, oh, it's more than just blood. It's also the essence of who the human is. If we see Laenor and Adam, yes, they both share the same blood and similar blood.

[01:04:41] But when you look at them as people, they're actually just really good, nice, lovely human beings. And it's funny to say that in a world of hard-hearted people who are trying to claim glory, win, whatever the cost is.

[01:04:55] I feel like that's also an important factor for a dragon to choose a human to bond with because dragons are very intelligent. They know who the essence of the human is behind the facade the human's trying to portray.

[01:05:09] So I think it's a mixture of blood, but it's also who this human being is. Question, how much do you think is in part because Adam is secretly Laenor's half-brother by Corlys? Clinton Liberty, we're both from technically the same family and there's a way that you

[01:05:30] are in the whole slash Valyrian household and it just seeps through. I feel like Seasmoke, having been bonded with Laenor previously, senses it in Adam. But he also senses this kind of person who wants to achieve these amazing things in an

[01:05:45] honest way and not try to kill anyone. He senses the purity in Adam. Question, have you been told whether Laenor is in fact dead? That he died offscreen? And that's how Seasmoke was able to bond to Adam as a new rider? Or does Seasmoke just think he's dead?

[01:06:02] Clinton Liberty. Do you know who that's a great question for? Ryan Condall. That's the guy you need to talk to. To be honest, when I was working on this, all I was literally focused on was the mind of the character because Adam doesn't know.

[01:06:17] Adam is just chilling, trying to live his best life, trying to go fishing, picking up crabs, walking on the beach peacefully. He doesn't know any of the politics behind what goes on.

[01:06:27] So this is an introduction for him to the life of a dragon rider, to the life of what's going on with Queen Rhaenyra and the rest of Westeros and King's Landing. Question, when Adam bonds with Seasmoke, Corlys comes to Alan and asks if he wants to try

[01:06:42] his luck as a dragon seed as well. Alan turns that idea down, choosing to help in another way by bringing the dragon seeds from King's Landing. Why does he do this? Abu Bakr Saleem. For Alan, we're seeing his life being turned upside down.

[01:06:59] Essentially, the thing that he wanted, the attention, the energy from Corlys, which he's been craving for a while now, is all coming. His brother getting his wishes. It's almost like in Alan's eyes, it's a bit too much.

[01:07:13] And the thing that Alan does is focus on what he's good at, working in the shipyard, working on the ships, being of salt and sea. And that's where my character's head is at. He's very protective of his brother and he loves his brother dearly.

[01:07:29] So to hear now that his brother is not only involved in the war to a degree, but on such a high level as a dragon rider, it's a lot to take on.

[01:07:37] And I think that's why he thinks, I have to be in this more than ever because I just don't want my brother to fail. Yeah. And he seems like a simple guy. He knows what he is. He's accepted that. Yeah. Yeah. All right.

[01:07:56] Here's an article from the Hollywood Reporter. House of the Dragon actor on how that scene just changed the show. The power shift is huge. This is Tom Bennett, the actor who plays Ulf the White.

[01:08:12] And he's talking about how his oppressed working class character is suddenly sitting on a nuclear warhead. Question. A lot of actors who get on these shows previously auditioned for other parts in this franchise. Would you go out for another role before this? Bennett. I've only had one.

[01:08:29] I had one Game of Thrones audition, maybe for season three. I auditioned to play a comedy guard having a piss and then he gets eaten by a direwolf. It was a good scene, but it was one scene and now I'm flying a dragon.

[01:08:43] It's a good thing I didn't get it because maybe now I wouldn't be Ulf. Question. So obviously he's led his whole life being told this story that his mother was Viserys and Daemon's sister, but he doesn't know for sure if it's true, which must have been

[01:08:56] fun for you to play in those early scenes because he's presenting it as being true while not really knowing if he's lying. Answer. Yeah, for the sake of a free pint of mead, it's true. The different change of temperature comes when they're like, okay, show me it's true.

[01:09:12] You might get killed by a dragon. Now I'm not sure. Question. So what goes through his mind when he's facing off against Silverwing? Answer. So I run into the caverns and I'm stumbling through a lake of dragon shit and dragon piss. Question. Oh, so that's what that was.

[01:09:29] Answer. And then I put my foot through a dragon's egg. I know what's happening. The mummy is clearly there. She's seen this. She doesn't like the look of me and it's game over man in the words of Bill Paxton in Aliens.

[01:09:43] I believe I'm going to be set on fire and eaten and I get bumped around a bit. But what we realized is Silverwing doesn't want to kill me. She has for whatever reason. She's taken a liking to me, whether it's my smell or my Targaryen blood.

[01:09:56] And she's toying with me like a cat would toy with a mouse. Eventually she accepts me as her rider. Question. That's been interesting in general this season, just in the context of the whole franchise to have these small folk characters being rapidly elevated to positions of power.

[01:10:12] It's a unique vibe in terms of what we've seen before in Westeros. Answer. Season one was the ruling classes and we spent all our time in castles and on the throne and in council rooms.

[01:10:24] I think it's really nice that this season we get to see the people in Flea Bottom because Flea Bottom has always been there and a big part of Thrones and dragon lore. Until Dany. Now we finally get to meet a few genuine Flea Bottomers.

[01:10:40] I think that can only be good for the season moving forward. That's great. Thank you. All right. We have some listener feedback. Veronica, you want to get us started? Yeah. So it looks like the first is from my Almerdini.

[01:11:04] And so last week we forgot to put up a feedback post. So sorry to listeners that I know we're excited to give feedback. But so this is actually feedback for episode six that she wanted to share before going on to the seventh episode.

[01:11:21] And it starts out, the golden cloaks are worse than the secret service. And then went on to say, I didn't notice that Alan's hair was silver and that's why he was shaving it off.

[01:11:32] I thought he was doing it because he didn't want to look like Corlys while Adam was embracing his dreads. I guess one got the color and one got the locks. I always assumed Corlys was just old, not that he had silver hair.

[01:11:45] I wanted to reflect on why I disliked Alison so much. And it occurred to me that she actually has a lot of similarities to the second sons. There are a lot of parallels between her and Amond.

[01:11:58] I do think she was drugging Viserys to stay in power, similar to how Amond is trying to knock out his brother. Viserys didn't want to rule. Aegon doesn't want to rule. And Rhaenyra didn't want to rule. I know, I know.

[01:12:25] People say she was a victim of the patriarchy, blah blah blah. But she could have used her position for good to educate her children and make sure they do better, or use her position to uplift others like Rhaenyra.

[01:12:39] But no, she decided to be a shit mother, play footsies with Larys, and screw Sir Crispy. All of which is coming back to bite her in the ass. Oh sorry, can you tell I don't like her?

[01:12:53] Helene is a victim of the patriarchy, yes, but I don't see Alison as a victim. She victimizes herself to get power, and she keeps failing at that too. Okay, rant over. I'm excited for episode 7, hopefully I can leave some feedback before we record.

[01:13:07] I think that Alison can be both a victim and have made bad decisions that led to things that she is having to now deal with. I think both of those things could be true.

[01:13:21] She does not have to be all bad, or all good, or completely a victim and have made no bad choices herself. I think it's absolutely both. Agree. I mean, she continues to choose badly. Like she could be at Helene's side, who probably needs some support right now.

[01:13:41] At Aegon's side, poor Aegon. But she's not. She is off in the woods by herself. So I do feel empathy for Alison, but I also acknowledge that she has made a lot of bad choices. Yeah. Yeah. I agree. And she will continue to do so.

[01:14:06] This was an interesting episode that we didn't get any Kristen. Yeah. We didn't get, we haven't had any Otto for quite some time. I don't know if we'll get that in the next episode. I do hope we get Otto. I would like to see what he's up to.

[01:14:24] And I hope, I think, I hope we get Darren as a finale, get to see him. Yeah, that would be nice. I mean, I'm not sure why else would they be talking about him so much. Yeah, they're talking about him so much. Yeah.

[01:14:38] But this is what they're doing. I could imagine them holding it to the beginning of next season, but I, my bet right now is we'll get him. Yeah. For the next episode. Alma Contreras says, well, the dragon seed storyline is finally paying off.

[01:14:58] I have to admit this dragon seed storyline had been boring me. I feel like it was taking too long to get to where we needed it to go. Ulf and that Tully boy sure was talking some smack to Damon.

[01:15:11] The finale looks like it's going to be, it's going to be awesome. Yeah. I'll finish up for her. All right. And next we have a call from Steve Brown. Hello, Dragoncast. This is Steve and this is going to be for House of the Dragons season two, episode seven,

[01:15:29] the red sewing. I had to start it over again because I made a stupid comment, but the previously on is really helping me remember what's happened. But I also count on your podcast to help with that as well. Ooh, starting almost right where we left off, right?

[01:15:41] There's Cyrax and there's Seasmoke and here's Rhaenera, right? Ooh, he's pledging his allegiance to her. Does she even know who he is though? Oh, and he has the best argument. It chose him. He didn't choose it.

[01:15:51] So, but Adam of Hull, your parent is just going to be found out eventually, I'm sure. Is that foreshadowing that Alison just saw a rat in her chambers? Because, you know, the rat catchers are gone. Ooh, this is a great conversation with Viseria.

[01:16:02] Viseria and Rhaena, she's like, we're going to raise an army of bastards. Go find them. This guy is calling Aemon the king now. Is that right? So this Oscar Tully is the head of House Tully and he's claiming his allegiance to the queen, not to Aemon, right? Aemon?

[01:16:17] What is this one? The guy without the eyepatch. This is Daemon. The guy without the eyepatch is Daemon. The one with the eyepatch is Aemon. This kid is smart. He's basically giving Daemon no choice.

[01:16:27] Even though he has no love for Daemon, he is going to pledge his loyalty to the queen. Well, so much for that lord who committed savagery in the name of Daemon. But now, huh? Is this Daemon having another vision of Viserius? But a wasted away Viserius.

[01:16:41] So Aegon is getting stronger and Adam's brother doesn't want anything to do with dragons. Okay, which daughter of Corlys is this now that doesn't, this is the one that doesn't have a dragon, right? Okay, what is this montage of people leading to in this very tense music?

[01:16:58] Oh, so this is the small and this is Ulf who's he claims to be Targaryen, right? So this guy, the guy that was building the dragon, right? The dragon shooting things. He actually does have Targaryen blood.

[01:17:09] Okay, this High Valyrian discussion with the subtitles is going way too fast for me to try to read what's going on. But I'm assuming these guys don't agree with Rhaenyra bringing in the low folk, the bastards to claim dragons. Okay, this is tense. We're going to see Vrimavor.

[01:17:24] This is going to be the first time we're going to see this largest dragon ever. Oh, so are they leaving it to the dragon to decide? Because that's going to be interesting. Oh, okay. Wow. Who's going to be chosen? Well, he's still alive.

[01:17:38] Oh, and this is Ulf, right? Running away into the cave. Which dragon has he just met that just nosed him? The closed caption just said Silverwing. I don't know which one that is. He's riding Silverwing. Does it have a saddle? And he's hooting and hollering.

[01:17:52] Oh, it's going to be an epic final episode. That's a good point. When we see Silverwing, he has a saddle. So somewhere that happened, right? Well, in one of the behind-the-scenes episodes, Ryan Condal said they never take their saddles off.

[01:18:12] The saddles kind of grow into the dragon scales. That's why Vhagar's saddle and all that netting was there when child Aemon claimed Vhagar in season one. Okay. Interesting. Okay. I did see a funny, very slightly vulgar, but I think if we're all watching House of the

[01:18:32] Dragon bits, but I saw a meme that was saying to tell the difference between Daemon and Aemon, it's whether you want the D in the front or the back. Because it's literally the same name as Aemon with a D on either side. Yep. All right. Sorry.

[01:18:50] Yep, yep, yep. Becky Fenner Anderson says, loved Oscar Meyer Tully putting Daemon in his place. He deserved a slow clap from the audience. Allison said, peace, I'm out. Aemon gave me Wicked Witch of the West vibes on Vhagar.

[01:19:09] For a moment, I thought Silverwing was going to claim Massaria. Silverwing was never anywhere near Massaria, so I'm not sure. Maybe Vermax? I mean, Vermithor was going to claim Massaria? The camera kept sweeping back to Massaria. Yeah, it did. Yeah. Yeah. When they were with Vermithor.

[01:19:31] I'm thinking they were just trying to show her reactions to things. Because this was kind of her brainchild in many ways. And so I think that's what it was. But I get that thought. Yeah. Going on, Ulf, he was so happy. PSA, don't drink and dragon ride.

[01:19:51] Poor Aegon. Can't wait to see Rhaena get her dragon. That final scene with Rhaenyra and her growing dragon army was awesome. Really good episode. I agree. I want to see something good for Rhaena. She seems so lost. I know.

[01:20:08] All right, this is from Jackie F. She writes, Hey y'all, I would send you a voicemail, but I don't know how to do that, so I'm typing this instead. So I think for voicemail, the best way to do it is usually have a voice message on your phone.

[01:20:26] And I can just record mine and just go ahead and send it via email or message. You can hear the sheer awesomeness of glee and happiness at this episode seven. And I was very gleeful at the end of the last episode, especially with the kiss.

[01:20:46] Anyway, the dragon seed scene was epically frightening to the point I felt the sheer terror of Vermithor going dragon pissed off and torches everyone until Hugh had the sheer balls to stand up to him. And that's when he went docile.

[01:21:03] Also the ending, are we going to trap Vhagar? I'm half remembering the book, so some of this is a surprise to me. I knew the dragon seed thing, but seeing it compared to reading it is totally different experience.

[01:21:18] Made me totally respect Rhaenyra's power more the way she called forth and calmed Vermithor enough to touch him. Made me respect Dany even more as a dragon rider and tamed two other dragons too from birth. No wonder people called her mother of dragons.

[01:21:38] They did her bidding together in unison. Wow. The awesome power of that. That ending had me in chills. I tell you, I was like, yes, dragon war, take King's Landing. She's got Syrax, Vermax, Silverwing and Vermithor on her side against Vhagar.

[01:21:57] If they fought together, they would swing it easily. Some would die in the attempt, but what a better way to die than riding a dragon into war for your queen. Ugh, I can't wait for next week's episode. Love you, long time listener. Thank you, Jackie. That was wonderful.

[01:22:13] That was awesome. And here's another follow up comment from Myle Murdini. This was for episode six. So for episode seven, says that was a fun episode. I think I could do without any dragons flirting with me though. LOL. I disagree. I think I am Hugh.

[01:22:33] Like if I came face to face with a grizzly bear, I'd just be like, this is the coolest moment ever. This is how I die. I'm here for it. Yeah, I really enjoyed it when we didn't know what to expect when we saw that dragon riding around.

[01:22:52] And of course it was him just having the time of his life. Loved it. Rima Jo, our guest host from last week says, what a great episode this week. Too many to go into detail. So a few quick thoughts. This episode had some beautiful imagery.

[01:23:07] Ranira with Vermithor, Cyrax and Seasmoke on the beach. Ranira, you stand with a dragon of House Targaryen. What do you want? Adam of Hull. I'm just happy to be here. I love Daemon but young Oscar Tully reading him for filth in that scene. Awesome. Dragon seeds.

[01:23:29] I loved that each claiming was different. Like Grandpa Vermithor getting grumpy, but then bonded with Hugh when he stood up to him. But then way less drama with Silverwing. Finally, put this pic on my tombstone. All hail Queen Ranira.

[01:23:45] P.S. could Serra Targaryen be Hugh's mom he talked about? Yes, in fact she could and we can talk about that in book talk. Alright Alicia Stout says, for all you dragon lovers, this was the episode for you lol.

[01:24:04] No doubt all the money for CGI went into this episode for sure. Fantastic scenes with multiple dragons, loved all of it. The last 25 minutes was intense as hell and all I gotta say is don't pee your pants. Phew. Yes. Agree so much.

[01:24:20] While Hugh was running through the dragon pit my first thought was, what does dragon poop look like? And man that would suck to step in it. Then when Ulf stepped in that big mound I thought for a second, well here we go, my question was answered.

[01:24:36] But then it turned out to be a clutch of eggs. Bummer. Can you imagine how bad it must smell down there? I'd also like to take a moment to mention that the costuming in the show is great and everything in this episode that Ranira was wearing was stunning.

[01:24:53] Looks like Alicent is feeling a little bit of self-loathing and for a minute while she was floating in that lake I thought she was going to end it all. Overall another awesome episode and I can't believe there's only one left. Boo. Thank you Alicia, that's great.

[01:25:10] We have a brief message from Jacob Decker that says, I hope Damon just wrecks Amon this weekend. Yep. I don't because I love them both and I want more Damon with swagger back and I want to watch Damon as long as possible because he's just so fun.

[01:25:29] I predict they're going to have an initial battle but it'll be a draw or neither of them, you know, and then they're going to save the big thing for next season but I could be wrong. Alright, our last call is from Sam. Hi it's Sam! We got dragons!

[01:25:54] Yes, finally! Finally! We get the dragons, we get the writers on these dragons and oh my gosh it did not disappoint me. I loved it! From that opening scene, it was so beautiful and seeing Rhaenyra and Adam of Hull, like

[01:26:10] it was just so cool seeing the psychic bond between the writers and the dragons. I mean the dragons were clearly protective of each other writers and also being their own writer's hypen. Like, rrrrrr, rrrrrrrr, like it's not a dragon sound but you know what I mean.

[01:26:25] But it was just so cool to see that and then Rhaenyra gave this boring speech to the dragon seeds and it was like okay I get why you have to do this, I'm just- and the Darcy did their best. It was just really boring.

[01:26:39] I'm like okay let's go we want to see the dragon part and then it was so cool. You know, I think what Rhaenyra should have done is given them tips on how to bond with the dragon.

[01:26:53] Like don't be afraid, accept that you're gonna die, be calm, be assertive, be angry, but don't be afraid. Like something, teach them Valyrian or like something I don't know. But he was so cuddly when he showed up with his sleep apnea and breathing like hhhhhhh

[01:27:08] I'm like ohhhh you cutie pie. And it turns out Seasmoke was the sweetest dragon that we have seen in quite a while because he just killed two people and then left. He's like I'll do it myself. Vermithor? No no no. This sir was mad.

[01:27:23] He was like I'm old and I'm cranky and you woke me up for this bullshit. Like you just decimated everyone, had a little bit of a snack. And then my toxic trait is like even after all of this kind of terrifying slaughter,

[01:27:37] he slow blinks at Hugh and I'm like awww I wanna hug you dragon. Death by dragon and doing what she loved would have been on my tombstone if I wasn't Westeros and there were dragons.

[01:27:52] I mean even all of them at the end, like just doing a pack of huskies and growling and howling at Aemon and Vhagar I was like oh my god you guys are adorable. And I don't know, Hugh and Ulf, clearly not a surprise we've been spending time with

[01:28:08] them so we knew that they were gonna bond which hey that's a little sloppy writing. I mean at least have one person in there that's not gonna make it but whatevs. Hugh is the- his mom was the bastard king of King Jaehaerys I who we saw in season

[01:28:21] one episode one who kinged Viserys right? And I don't know something about how he said to his wife if we have a dragon we'll never want for anything again, it rubbed me the wrong way.

[01:28:34] It reminded me too much of Aemond as a kid thinking that a dragon fixes everything. Like it's beyond cool. We kind of know where that leads though so I'm a little sus with him. I'm a little bit of a yellow flag.

[01:28:48] And then Ulf just being a comedian the whole way like his friends are like you should go get a dragon Targaryen. He's like well you know my legs not working right and my toe and like my neck has like

[01:28:59] a crook in it from sleeping bad it just won't take. Like nah nah nah, put your money where your mouth is let's go. So just like some quick things that I thought about the episode. I love you kid.

[01:29:16] Sass seems to be the official language of the Riverlands and I'm here for it. Sir Simon Strong you are my MVP this season I adore you sir. You are so funny all the time. What is happening with Daemon?

[01:29:29] I know it seems to be like my feedback every week but it's like he said he's like I don't need their love I need their swords. How is this the same Daemon who took teen Rhaenyra to see the small folk and told her that their opinion matters?

[01:29:42] What is going on? Are we actually getting hints that Alicent is gonna switch sides to Rhaenyra and go there and be like hey bestie you were right my kids do suck you should be on the throne. I'm kind of excited for that conversation.

[01:29:56] And aww Jace I forget sometimes that he's still just a kid. Someone who never fit in was always bullied about his heritage and like he was able to buff up against the rumors and hatred against him because he's like well I have a dragon I'm good enough.

[01:30:14] And that's how he could tolerate it more than like Luke who like was always weighed down by it. And then of course you take the thing that he thinks makes him special away and he's like how am I any more worthy? I'm like no I keep forgetting you're 16.

[01:30:26] So I'm so looking forward to the podcast can't wait to hear what y'all have to say. Aw thanks Sam. I don't think Alicent is gonna switch sides. No either. No probably not. I think it's all too late for that.

[01:30:43] Alright so stay tuned for after the podcast we're gonna have book talk with Archmaester Rhaeny and acolyte Rhaeny and we're going to talk about the differences in the book to this episode only and then we're gonna have real book spoilers.

[01:31:03] So if you don't want to be spoiled on anything from the book then just end it when you hear our music. Next week on House of the Dragon we will be covering the season 2 finale. Any ideas for names of that?

[01:31:20] No I don't yeah I don't know what they're gonna be doing next week. I watched the next week on and I still don't know exactly what they're gonna be doing next week. Damon wakes up that's a good. My only guess is it could be called Rhaenyra Triumphant.

[01:31:36] Oh okay. I don't have a guess I really don't know what they're gonna end with. You can leave feedback at our Podcastica Facebook page. We post weekly feedback threads or you can leave feedback by email at dragoncastica at gmail.com.

[01:32:00] You can find Dragon Cast and a bunch of other great podcasts at podcastica.com. What are you guys listening to right now? I am like super behind on everything. Me too. I've been listening to Rima on Strange Indeed covering Sweet Tooth and I just I've been

[01:32:22] following it was a Netflix show so it was dropped all at once but I've been following along week with by week with them and I. Is that season 3? Season 3 the final season and I just watched the last episode. Oh nice.

[01:32:35] I watched season 1 and haven't seen season 2 or 3 but it's still on my list. And I'm waiting for the final podcast to cover that last episode. Yeah. I definitely want next in my queue is to get caught up on the coverage of The Bayer with Lucy and Peter.

[01:32:53] Yeah but I'm not I'm not I think I'm like two episodes behind. I'm a little bit behind on everything right now. But yeah. All right that's our show. Thanks for listening everyone. Until next time I'm Rennie. I'm still Veronica and I'm Wendy. Drakaris.

[01:33:16] All right going into book talk. So to answer Rima's question about Sarah Targaryen. And I don't know this lineage as well as you do so I don't know who she is. So Sarah Targaryen is a daughter of Jaehaerys and Alysane brother of sorry sister of Balon

[01:33:55] who was the father of Viserys and Daemon. And she got involved in a scandal and she ended up going across the narrow sea and working in a pleasure house in Lys.

[01:34:09] So I see you know the idea but because she was not in King's Landing she was not in Westeros she was in Lys and Hugh and Ulf are clearly both born in Westeros probably King's Landing. I don't think that Sarah could be their mother.

[01:34:32] She might be their grandmother because at the great council of 101 where Viserys was chosen the heir three of Sarah's bastard sons all by different men came to assert a claim to the throne. But that would make them a generation later.

[01:34:51] And I feel like so like the way he was talking about it it made it sound like my interpretation but I couldn't understand how that would work was that it was actually their sister and

[01:35:06] so that would fit with that and so maybe the show is just changing the piece of where she was in the pleasure houses is it? I don't know. Maybe I don't know. I feel like just the way they have Hugh I mean he looks so pure Targaryen right?

[01:35:26] Like Ulf is not quite of that same caliber although if the idea is Ulf is the same parentage then that doesn't really make sense either. I don't know. No, no. I think they just are doing some hand waving.

[01:35:43] And also to be fair the books you know they say there are all these dragon seeds right on Dragonstone but there have never really been that many Targaryens. So when you try to pin down whose bastards are all of these it's a little slippery.

[01:36:03] So we don't know but we do know that they are true dragon seeds. I think it's an interesting change from the book where Jace is the one who thinks up the idea of looking for dragon seeds to claim dragons to the show version where his concern

[01:36:21] that ordinary people bonding with dragons undercuts legitimacy of his own claim that having a dragon gives him. And I think in that way the show is addressing something that's a little bit of a blind spot in the book.

[01:36:35] The book never brings up the fact that it's actually quite problematic that ordinary people are claiming dragons and the show does so I think that's good. Yeah, I agree. So Mysaria says the line that they should be looking under the sheets and in the wood

[01:36:55] piles that line is straight out of the book. Only it's Mushroom who says it in the book. It's Mushroom who says he says it in the book. That's right. He says under the sheets and in the wood piles wherever you Targaryen spilled your silver seed.

[01:37:16] So speaking of Mushroom, Silverwing is known to be the most docile of the riderless dragons and there's a funny story of Mushroom trying to claim Silverwing getting his pants set on fire and nearly drowning in a well when he tries to put out the fire.

[01:37:33] I think maybe that's why they played Ulf's claiming for laughs. It's kind of in a way it's riffing off of Mushroom's story. And it makes sense if Silverwing is a bit more docile for her to have that if there

[01:37:50] was a dragon that was going to sort of gently allow Ulf to claim them at least her temperament is consistent with that. In the book we never get any description of how Hugh and Ulf claim those two dragons. It just says Hugh claimed Vermithor and Ulf claimed Silverwing.

[01:38:12] That's all it says. You know something that surprised me so much about the way all that played out in the show was in the book I was just envisioning one person at a time going in and trying right

[01:38:25] And so I was not expecting, hey let me shut 30 of you in here and let's see who the dragon chooses. Like that just seemed like a bad idea. I know because even if the dragon rejects one person which is what happened multiple people got killed.

[01:38:43] So like if you really think these are important maybe just do one at a time. And I actually think for the show like yeah I get they needed to. It was more than 40 who were there because Miss Aria says she could name 40.

[01:38:58] I can't remember whether she says 43 or 48 or something like that herself. And so yeah the death toll looks a lot higher in the show because a lot of people get wiped out there but in the book only 16 men die and then three times as many were burned and

[01:39:18] maimed. And it doesn't happen all at once. And it doesn't happen all in the same place. I get why that made more sense for on the screen to kind of have it all at once but

[01:39:32] it just it's another one of those things where it sort of like nagged at me a little bit that this didn't seem smart. Which has seemed like a lot of the things that they're doing to move plot and scenes

[01:39:46] that I'm loving but I have these little like oh but I wish you hadn't had it happen this way. But oh well. I'll take it if we got all the beautiful dragon scenes that we got this episode. I'll forgive a few bad decisions.

[01:40:05] So in the book we have not heard of Adam and Alan previously. This is the sowing of the seeds is the first time we hear of them. And we learn that their mother Marilda is a shipwright also known as Mouse.

[01:40:22] And she has they both have silver hair so they're obviously dragon seeds but she's never admitted who their father was. But when the sowing of the seeds happens she brings them forward claims that they're dragon seeds and says that their father is Lenore.

[01:40:41] And a lot of people don't believe that for obvious reasons and believe that they are Corleases. And in the show clearly they have to be Corleases because they're too old to be Lenores. But Corleas himself brings the boys to the sowing.

[01:40:59] And show Alan is much more sensible than book Alan because show Alan declines to try to bond with the dragon. In the book he tries for a sheep stealer and it's only Adam's intervention on sea smoke that saves him from sheep stealer.

[01:41:19] He gets burned and it said that he carries the scars for the rest of his life. There's three wild dragons in the book and they don't seem to exist in the show on Dragonstone.

[01:41:33] The dragon that's in the veil clearly is sheep stealer because they very clearly showed us a sheep skull in the burn area. Yeah, like multiple both times, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's obvious now that Rayna is replacing Nettles.

[01:41:50] The character Nettles in the show who's the one or sorry in the book who's the one who claims sheep stealer and she is brown skinned, brown haired. She's dark and doesn't look like a dragon seed. There are some who think that she's Damon's illegitimate daughter.

[01:42:11] And she tames sheep stealer by bringing him sheep every day. Yeah, I honestly expected that we would see Rayna doing something like that this episode. Yeah, there is so much. This is too much of a snippet. Like give me like a tiny bit more with this scene.

[01:42:32] So much they're gonna have to pack in next episode because clearly she's gonna have to claim sheep stealer next episode. They're not going to wait that over until next season. I wouldn't think so. That would be weird. It wouldn't make sense. I don't think.

[01:42:45] And in the book, the dragon seeds are all already on Dragonstone. It's Targaryens on Dragonstone who have had all these illegitimate children. Nobody comes over from King's Landing. So nobody in King's Landing has any idea what's going on over on Dragonstone.

[01:43:05] And Aemond isn't even there in King's Landing at this point. He's on the march with his army. None of the dragon seeds accidentally or on purpose fly over King's Landing. So the chase back to Dragonstone doesn't happen.

[01:43:24] But it was pretty cool to see Aemond turn and run away. Yeah, I thought everything about that was really fun. I think having it be Ulf who went and flew over the city was just appropriate for that character. Yes.

[01:43:41] And yeah, I am so glad with that change of letting us see Aemond have his oh shit moment. Don't get too many of those from him. Oops, it's a trap. So that was all I had about the difference in the way that the dragon seeds play out.

[01:44:00] That's all. I didn't have a ton else. I have a few spoilery things, but keep going if you have more. I just have one more non-spoilery thing. And that's, so since they beheaded Willem Blackwood, I hope that opens the way for us to get bloody Benjikot Blackwood.

[01:44:18] Oh yes. Who is about Oscar Tully's age. And already in the book, he's the person who's leading the Blackwoods. And he's a pretty cool character. So hopefully he will replace Willem. You know, I didn't think I would be as excited as I am for the additional characters.

[01:44:40] I thought I just wanted Targaryens and the Dragonriders and everybody else's whatever. But I am changing my mind because I am loving the richness it adds. And Oscar this week was so fantastic. He was great. So I'm excited for more new characters as we go.

[01:44:59] That's another thing that's really different is that Grover Tully doesn't die until pretty much the Dance of the Dragons is over. And then he succeeded, not by Oscar, but by his son Kermit. Because these are the Muppet Tullys. I love these names so much. Yeah.

[01:45:22] So I'm pretty sure they just kept Oscar because Grover and Oscar don't immediately go Muppets. But when you have Elmo and Kermit, then it's pretty clear. Yeah. Yeah. All right, shall we move into spoilers? Yeah, let's go. Okay, warning, warning, warning. We're moving into the book spoiler section.

[01:45:42] Here's your warning. All right. You might die, but it will certainly leave you forever chained. Yes. So Jace says, what if one of your baseborn silver haired Dragonriders decides he wants to rule the Seven Kingdoms? What if? So prophetic, Jace, prophetic, because that's exactly what's going to happen.

[01:46:21] Yeah. I'm very curious how they're going to get Hugh from the sympathetic character he is now to a big jerk who wants to be crowned king. I'm wondering if they will, or if it will be more of a less of him being a jerk and

[01:46:42] wanting to crown king and more of these Targaryen Royals are killing us all, and we should just destroy them and take over. I could see them going that route. I think they've made him too honorable.

[01:46:57] I mean, if his wife dies after he's gone to do this, I could see that really messing him up. Yeah. So because his daughter died, right? Yes. Yeah. And so I could see that being something that could break him, but I wonder if they'll have

[01:47:17] it play out just a little bit differently. Yeah. I think they have to. I like your idea that he may be wanting to be king because he wants to champion the small folk, do better by them.

[01:47:32] And he thought Rhaenyra was going to do that and maybe something when this is going to play out to where he becomes disenchanted with that. Or he may just get nastier and nastier as he becomes more and more bonded with Vermithor. Ooh, yeah. Yeah.

[01:47:49] It'd be interesting to see how they go with that. Yeah. I like him. I like that character. Yes. I like the actor too. Yeah. So they've really juggled around the timeline a lot. In the book, immediately after the four new dragon riders are chosen, Jace starts making

[01:48:08] plans to invade King's Landing. But at that moment, the Triarchy's fleet shows up to break the blockade and captures the Gay Abandon, which is the ship that Aegon the Younger and Viserys are on. Is that where we saw them being... Were they headed to the ship?

[01:48:28] I think they were. From the Vale. Yeah. I think that's what the question was. I think so. And I'm guessing that's why it's going to be so important for Rhaena to claim Sheepstealer too. Do you think that they will use her on Sheepstealer to replace some of the...

[01:48:48] To rescue Aegon? Interesting. Do you think? Maybe. I don't know. I was trying to think, because you've brought that up before. Who is going to... Yeah. As it could be anybody, but... How is Aegon going to get away, since clearly Stormcloud is not big enough to ride?

[01:49:06] And then the Battle of the Gullet happens, which is the bloodiest battle of the Dance of the Dragons. Biggest naval battle in Westerosi history. And the Triarchy is crushed, but Jace and Vermex die. My heart. I'm not going to be able to handle it.

[01:49:29] Watching Jace this episode, I felt my heart just be pierced. I know. Especially because the way Rhaenyra brushed him off. I was just like, you are going to regret it so much. You're going to be sorry. I know.

[01:49:42] And then I reread that part in the book and almost felt tears in my eyes just from reading the few lines. That's going to be tough to watch. I know. Do you think? There's no way they end... No. There's no way they fit that in.

[01:49:58] There's too much that needs to happen, right? It's next season. Yeah, they can't possibly do it. I think they have to move the Battle of the Gullet to Season 3. Yeah. Yeah. And then it's only after that that Daeron and Tessarion rescue the Hightower army in the Reach.

[01:50:18] And Daeron becomes known as Daeron the Daring. I am excited to meet him. And he's been cast, which makes me think we will see him. Yeah. And you know, that doesn't really matter when that happens. That's kind of disconnected from the sequence.

[01:50:36] So they could easily do that next week. Aemond comes to see Daemon's army at Harrenhal as the greatest threat and orders Jason Lannister to march from the west while Aemond accompanies Cristen Cole's army from King's Landing.

[01:50:54] And Alicent is still very much part of the Green Council at this point. She has not been banished from the council, which is part of what makes me think that after her walk in the woods she's going to come back and reassert herself. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:51:12] And it's only then, it's only after all of those events that the Blacks take King's Landing. But it looks like they're going to take King's Landing next week in the show without all those other things happening. So I think they're time swapping them.

[01:51:29] It feels like there's too many things that still need to happen. I know. I know. That's why I'm really unsure about what happens next week. But they have sped up Aegon's recovery, right?

[01:51:41] Like I expected him to just be in bed drugged up for the rest of the season. He does, in the book he is well enough to get away. I know. To be snuck away.

[01:51:57] But I thought that, I thought like next season would end with them taking King's Landing or maybe the mid-season or something. And so I anticipated the rest of this season he would just sort of be asleep and then we

[01:52:12] would see him starting to gain strength back next season. But the fact that they're already sort of showing how much they're pushing him makes me wonder if you're correct. I did watch the preview but not closely because I didn't want to completely spoil myself.

[01:52:33] And so I didn't pick up on that, but it could just be that I didn't pay close attention. Yeah. I love that we don't know. Let me just say that. I love that we don't know.

[01:52:47] I'm so glad that they are changing some things because I feel like they've kept it exciting for book readers and allowed us to still throw out theories. Maybe the fighting that we, the urban fighting that we see isn't King's Landing.

[01:53:04] Maybe it's, I don't know, maybe it's just the Dearon and Tessarian and the Hightower armies fighting. I really have no idea. Yeah, I don't either. I'm excited to see. So season one with all the time skips and everything covered about 70 pages of fire and blood.

[01:53:26] So far in season two, they've covered just over 20 pages. And there's at least 100 pages left before there's a logical stopping point for the story. So I think seasons three and four will speed up. But that of course means major characters getting killed off.

[01:53:52] I think that the fight with Damon and Amond is not going to happen until early in season four, just because of the popularity of those characters. I don't think they would do that. I think they're going to push that as far out as they can.

[01:54:14] Just from a perspective of a showrunner wanting to please viewers, I think they can do that. And I think they can do it reasonably. But I wonder if they won't even push it a little later in the timeline, right?

[01:54:33] Yeah, because you lose two of the most important characters and two of the most interesting dragons. So it's going to be hard for the show to go past that. Yeah, I agree. That's going to be epic though.

[01:54:53] I did wonder, like, I think Wendy might be right that we get preemptively that we get some face-offs that don't come to anything though, between the two of them just to build up to that. But that doesn't happen in the book, right? They fight when they meet.

[01:55:12] That's it, right? Yeah, that's it. Yeah. So I would bet that we might get some sort of like teaser of it. Although it's hard for me to imagine either of them pulling out of a fight. And so I don't know how they would navigate it.

[01:55:28] But it feels like they need to do something to build that up more. We just need to see a redemption arc for like, strength of Damon at this point. Because they like, they've sort of broken him down a lot this season. I don't hate it completely.

[01:55:45] I wish it had been a slightly more condensed. But I'm just ready to see him get his groove back. You know, he may in the show, he may go back to Dragonstone, which he does not do in the book.

[01:55:59] But it wouldn't make sense for him to go back to Dragonstone and say, I'm back. And I'm all in support of you, honey. Yeah, I yeah, I think that will happen. I think it has to because I well, it depends on where next episode goes, I guess.

[01:56:16] But in my head, they don't take King's Landing until next season. Yeah, so they need to do something with him in the in between. And I think we need a reconciliation with Runeera. And so I could imagine him going to Dragonstone. Yeah. But who knows?

[01:56:36] I don't know what they're doing. Maybe if Rayna flies Sheepstealer over to Dragonstone, Damon will say, Oh, wow, I have another daughter. I absolutely think that's what will happen. I mean, think of what they set up with him.

[01:56:53] They've set him up to be ignoring her since she was introduced as a character and for her to be disappointed at that. And if she's taking the place of Nettles, who was sort of in the book, taken a bit under Damon's wing.

[01:57:09] She's either his daughter or his lover. Yeah. And so I think it makes sense that we're going to get a rebonding of or not even a rebonding, just a bonding of Rayna with Damon.

[01:57:24] And it makes sense then that it would be Rayna who would go hunting for Aemond and Vhagar Sheepstealer is one of the larger dragons. And Bela's dragon is smaller. So rather than taking Bela, I'm so excited for Rayna. Like I think that's going to be really fun.

[01:57:55] So the you know, the actor who plays Rayna did say something that I found extremely disturbing, which is she said that Rayna is going to get Dark Sister this season, which makes no sense. Why would Damon give up Dark Sister? This season? Yeah.

[01:58:15] She said it happened this season. So next episode? So it would have to be next episode. I have no idea why he would give up Dark Sister. That doesn't make sense. No. And he can't give up Dark Sister because there is a very specific place where Dark Sister

[01:58:27] has to go. Yes. That's weird. Very weird. Well, we'll see what they're doing. I guess we'll see. I did think more last week we sort of talked about with them changing it to Rayna that it might sort of mess with the canon of the Burned Men. Yes.

[01:58:47] And I was thinking maybe not because we've already set up that this dragon is living solo in the Vale. And so if Rayna was done with Sheepstealer at some point, I could imagine Sheepstealer just going back into the wild and still living there.

[01:59:07] And so we wouldn't have the witch with the dragon, but there would still be a dragon in the Vale. So yeah, I don't know. Could be. Yeah. Anything else? That's all I had. Yeah. All right. That's all I've got. Awesome. All right.

[01:59:23] Well, I'm excited to see what we have to talk about next week. Yes. Looking forward to the finale. As you say, all the more so because I don't know what's going to happen. Yeah, it's going to be good. All right. Great.