"Where the Stars are Strange” (The Rings of Power S2E2)

[00:00:05] [SPEAKER_04]: Podcastica

[00:00:06] [SPEAKER_02]: The High King believes that if I were to face the enemy alone, I may be vulnerable to deception.

[00:00:14] [SPEAKER_01]: And why would he think that?

[00:00:16] [SPEAKER_02]: Stop it Elrond!

[00:00:19] [SPEAKER_01]: You've defied the High King's orders before, why not do so now?

[00:00:24] [SPEAKER_02]: Because he is right.

[00:00:27] [SPEAKER_02]: Sauron used me, and under his hand I was played like a harp to a melody not of my choosing.

[00:00:35] [SPEAKER_01]: It was entirely of your choosing.

[00:00:39] [SPEAKER_01]: Sauron looked inside you and plucked the very song of your soul note by note, making

[00:00:45] [SPEAKER_01]: himself out to be exactly what you needed, a lost king who could ride you to victory.

[00:00:49] [SPEAKER_01]: You gave him everything he wanted and then thanked him for it.

[00:00:52] [SPEAKER_01]: And now he has done the same to Gil-galah and to every elf in Lindon.

[00:00:56] [SPEAKER_02]: And that is why we need you.

[00:00:58] [SPEAKER_02]: Help us navigate this labyrinth.

[00:01:00] [SPEAKER_01]: There is no navigating it.

[00:01:02] [SPEAKER_01]: The labyrinth is his.

[00:01:05] [SPEAKER_01]: As long as you stay in it, you have already lost.

[00:01:09] [SPEAKER_01]: He may well want you in a regio.

[00:01:11] [SPEAKER_02]: Please Elrond, I cannot let him in again.

[00:01:24] [SPEAKER_01]: He never left Caladrian.

[00:01:28] [SPEAKER_01]: In choosing to wear those rings, you have all chosen to become his collaborators.

[00:01:34] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, I will have no part in it.

[00:01:40] [SPEAKER_02]: You promised me once that if but a whisper of a rumour of what I feared proved true,

[00:01:47] [SPEAKER_02]: you would not rest until it was put right.

[00:01:52] [SPEAKER_01]: If our friendship ever meant anything to you, please leave.

[00:02:32] [SPEAKER_06]: Greetings Ringbearers, Blingwearers and dwarves with daddy issues.

[00:02:35] [SPEAKER_06]: Welcome to our podcast.

[00:02:36] [SPEAKER_06]: I'm Anne Wynne.

[00:02:37] [SPEAKER_06]: And I'm Penny.

[00:02:39] [SPEAKER_06]: And this is the Cast of the Rings, episode 18.

[00:02:42] [SPEAKER_00]: In this episode, we're going to be covering season two, episode two of the Rings of Power,

[00:02:48] [SPEAKER_00]: where the stars are strange.

[00:02:51] [SPEAKER_06]: And the story is definitely kicking along on this one.

[00:02:54] [SPEAKER_06]: What did you think overall, Penny?

[00:02:56] [SPEAKER_00]: I thought this episode was a vast improvement on episode one.

[00:03:00] [SPEAKER_00]: It moved along much more quickly.

[00:03:02] [SPEAKER_00]: A lot more interesting stuff happened.

[00:03:06] [SPEAKER_00]: I felt like they heard some of my requests, specifically that I wanted more women.

[00:03:14] [SPEAKER_00]: There were women dwarves.

[00:03:17] [SPEAKER_00]: There was, you know, women smiths.

[00:03:19] [SPEAKER_00]: There's women elves.

[00:03:21] [SPEAKER_00]: There was a woman war leader at the war council of Gilgallad.

[00:03:25] [SPEAKER_00]: Like, thank you.

[00:03:26] [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you, Rings of Power.

[00:03:27] [SPEAKER_00]: That was what I wanted.

[00:03:29] [SPEAKER_06]: It's great, isn't it?

[00:03:31] [SPEAKER_06]: I really liked it too.

[00:03:32] [SPEAKER_06]: I think, remember last week we were saying that perhaps the episodes were all released

[00:03:38] [SPEAKER_06]: at once because one, two and three are all the real set up that we need for the rest

[00:03:43] [SPEAKER_06]: of the action.

[00:03:44] [SPEAKER_06]: And the first one definitely is set up for sure.

[00:03:47] [SPEAKER_06]: And I enjoyed it a lot more too.

[00:03:49] [SPEAKER_06]: I liked the first one, but my initial reaction actually, you know, looking back

[00:03:53] [SPEAKER_06]: when I first watched it was, huh, rather than yay.

[00:03:58] [SPEAKER_06]: And then this one, I've gotten more into the yay.

[00:04:00] [SPEAKER_06]: So this has left me even more excited to watch episode three.

[00:04:04] [SPEAKER_06]: So it's really, really great.

[00:04:06] [SPEAKER_06]: Shall we get into it?

[00:04:07] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, let's do it.

[00:04:09] [SPEAKER_06]: What would you like to start with?

[00:04:12] [SPEAKER_00]: So Master Cure Dunn, who first of all, last week you talked about how you were familiar

[00:04:17] [SPEAKER_00]: with the actor from Interview with a Vampire.

[00:04:19] [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm watching that, but I'm way behind.

[00:04:22] [SPEAKER_00]: So I haven't gotten up to his character yet.

[00:04:24] [SPEAKER_00]: But I thought he looked familiar to me.

[00:04:26] [SPEAKER_00]: So I looked into it.

[00:04:27] [SPEAKER_00]: And of course, I know him from foundation.

[00:04:29] [SPEAKER_00]: He played a character named Bell Rios, and he like stole scenes from everybody

[00:04:35] [SPEAKER_00]: in season two of Foundation.

[00:04:37] [SPEAKER_00]: He was so good.

[00:04:38] [SPEAKER_00]: And so when I put that together in my head, I was like, oh, I can see it now.

[00:04:42] [SPEAKER_00]: And I got like really excited.

[00:04:44] [SPEAKER_00]: Anyway, Cure Dunn had only really one scene this episode, but I thought

[00:04:49] [SPEAKER_00]: it was a fascinating scene.

[00:04:51] [SPEAKER_00]: So I have sort of two main points about it.

[00:04:53] [SPEAKER_00]: First is that Elrond, in visible distress, says to Master Cure Dunn,

[00:05:01] [SPEAKER_00]: I cannot trust these rings.

[00:05:04] [SPEAKER_00]: What is beauty when it is born in part of evil?

[00:05:07] [SPEAKER_00]: Cure Dunn replies, no less beautiful, not to me.

[00:05:11] [SPEAKER_00]: Would you cast Rue Mill's verses into the flame because the poet was a drunkard?

[00:05:16] [SPEAKER_00]: And this question of separating art from the artist is something I struggle

[00:05:22] [SPEAKER_00]: with constantly.

[00:05:25] [SPEAKER_00]: Every time a writer, actor, musician, politician, but let's stick with artists

[00:05:34] [SPEAKER_00]: for now, painter, whoever is revealed to be a creep on some level.

[00:05:42] [SPEAKER_00]: And those creepinesses range from Joss Whedon, who created probably my

[00:05:50] [SPEAKER_00]: favorite television show of all time, Buffy the Vampire Slayer, was like

[00:05:54] [SPEAKER_00]: basically a giant abusive jerk on set.

[00:05:58] [SPEAKER_00]: To Bill Cosby, who is a serial essayer.

[00:06:05] [SPEAKER_00]: People don't like the word, so I won't use it, but he did really

[00:06:09] [SPEAKER_00]: horrible things and he abused his power in order to do so.

[00:06:12] [SPEAKER_00]: And he did it for years and years and years and lots of people helped him.

[00:06:18] [SPEAKER_00]: And so I've made a decision to keep watching Buffy the Vampire Slayer because

[00:06:26] [SPEAKER_00]: so many other people were part of that creation and I can sort of separate

[00:06:34] [SPEAKER_00]: Joss Whedon from the product.

[00:06:39] [SPEAKER_00]: It still comes up sometimes for me when I'm watching, sometimes

[00:06:42] [SPEAKER_00]: something on screen, I'm like, oh, now that we know what we know about him,

[00:06:45] [SPEAKER_00]: that's gross.

[00:06:47] [SPEAKER_00]: I cannot imagine ever being able to watch the Cosby show again.

[00:06:53] [SPEAKER_00]: Like he's in every scene, he's on the screen all the time, it's named after

[00:06:57] [SPEAKER_00]: him and the whole show is about how he's this great guy.

[00:07:01] [SPEAKER_00]: Like, I don't think I could ever, ever watch that again, even though like

[00:07:04] [SPEAKER_00]: lots of other lovely people were involved in producing that show.

[00:07:07] [SPEAKER_00]: I similarly can't listen to Michael Jackson's music without thinking about

[00:07:12] [SPEAKER_00]: the allegations against him.

[00:07:14] [SPEAKER_00]: That's out of my life.

[00:07:16] [SPEAKER_00]: The other day I saw this really funny picture of some, or this really funny

[00:07:20] [SPEAKER_00]: graffiti in my town and I took a picture of it and it was a big construction

[00:07:24] [SPEAKER_00]: sign that said bump and somebody had spray painted underneath it and grind.

[00:07:28] [SPEAKER_00]: And when I went to post it on Instagram, I was like, oh, I should

[00:07:32] [SPEAKER_00]: push, I should post that picture bump the music bump and grind with the

[00:07:37] [SPEAKER_00]: picture.

[00:07:37] [SPEAKER_00]: And then I was like, oh, it's R.

[00:07:38] [SPEAKER_00]: Kelly.

[00:07:39] [SPEAKER_00]: I wonder if he gets royalties, if I use his music on Instagram.

[00:07:44] [SPEAKER_00]: So I didn't use the music.

[00:07:45] [SPEAKER_00]: Kiernan seems to think who cares about the creator and what they did and

[00:07:52] [SPEAKER_00]: who they are as a person.

[00:07:56] [SPEAKER_00]: If the end result is beautiful.

[00:07:58] [SPEAKER_00]: And again, he really focuses at first on the beauty and the perfection,

[00:08:02] [SPEAKER_00]: right?

[00:08:02] [SPEAKER_00]: He loves perfection.

[00:08:03] [SPEAKER_00]: He loves beauty.

[00:08:04] [SPEAKER_00]: He's seduced by this beauty.

[00:08:06] [SPEAKER_00]: And.

[00:08:08] [SPEAKER_00]: And then he compares Sauron to somebody who has a drinking problem.

[00:08:13] [SPEAKER_00]: It's not really a fair comparison, like to say like, oh, we shouldn't

[00:08:18] [SPEAKER_00]: listen to these poems because the poet is a drunk is really different from

[00:08:22] [SPEAKER_00]: we shouldn't wear these powerful magical objects because they were in

[00:08:28] [SPEAKER_00]: part created by a evil sorcerer.

[00:08:30] [SPEAKER_00]: I really feel like he's not making a fair comparison, but he is willing

[00:08:35] [SPEAKER_00]: to separate the art from the artist.

[00:08:37] [SPEAKER_00]: And I really struggle with when, and I don't think this is a good case

[00:08:42] [SPEAKER_00]: where you should do it, but when should you do it?

[00:08:46] [SPEAKER_00]: And I don't know the answer to that.

[00:08:48] [SPEAKER_00]: And I was wondering what you think.

[00:08:49] [SPEAKER_00]: And if listeners want to chime in and let us know what you

[00:08:53] [SPEAKER_00]: think, I'd love to hear from you.

[00:08:55] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.

[00:08:56] [SPEAKER_06]: As soon as he said that line, I thought of Buffy the vampire slayer

[00:09:01] [SPEAKER_06]: just we did and the conversations that you've had on your podcast.

[00:09:07] [SPEAKER_06]: For that.

[00:09:07] [SPEAKER_06]: And the other one I thought of was JK Rowling and, uh, and that's a good

[00:09:13] [SPEAKER_06]: example for me, I guess, when you ask that question, I'm not going to

[00:09:17] [SPEAKER_06]: boycott everything, JK Rowling, because I do believe that the world

[00:09:22] [SPEAKER_06]: that she created and the impact that has had on children and young

[00:09:27] [SPEAKER_06]: adults everywhere is probably bigger than the stance that she takes on

[00:09:33] [SPEAKER_06]: one issue now.

[00:09:36] [SPEAKER_06]: Um, and I'm a, I'm a huge reader.

[00:09:38] [SPEAKER_06]: I read a lot of books and I know for a fact that there are hundreds, if not

[00:09:44] [SPEAKER_06]: thousands, if not millions of kids out there who never read until they read

[00:09:48] [SPEAKER_06]: Harry Potter and that opened them up to the world of, of, of reading,

[00:09:53] [SPEAKER_06]: but also the world of fantasy, which obviously I'm a huge fan of.

[00:09:56] [SPEAKER_06]: Um, and so some of those things I can, I can separate.

[00:09:59] [SPEAKER_06]: I agree with you on, on the whole Cosby thing as well.

[00:10:04] [SPEAKER_06]: I've got no desire to watch that show ever again, because it just puts too much

[00:10:07] [SPEAKER_06]: more of a spin on, on what you're looking at.

[00:10:12] [SPEAKER_06]: Um, and with, with Buffy, absolutely.

[00:10:16] [SPEAKER_06]: I just take into account that there are so many other people that made

[00:10:19] [SPEAKER_06]: that show and that he was one of them and, um, it's a, it's a beautiful

[00:10:23] [SPEAKER_06]: thing, the creation is a beautiful thing.

[00:10:26] [SPEAKER_06]: Um, so with Curran, yeah, it's.

[00:10:31] [SPEAKER_06]: I don't know if it's the best comparison, the one that he makes.

[00:10:35] [SPEAKER_06]: I think he's using it just as an illustration to Elrond, um, to,

[00:10:39] [SPEAKER_06]: to look outside his general feelings about it.

[00:10:43] [SPEAKER_06]: It's interesting because it's quite a short scene, but it's quite packed.

[00:10:46] [SPEAKER_06]: Isn't it like you kind of think about it?

[00:10:47] [SPEAKER_06]: You think there's actually lots to unpack in there.

[00:10:51] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.

[00:10:51] [SPEAKER_06]: And, and I think maybe one of the reasons why it's a, it's a little bit

[00:10:56] [SPEAKER_06]: of a law reason, I guess, is that, um, Elrond was sort of opposed to using,

[00:11:03] [SPEAKER_06]: um, to using the rings or to, um, he didn't trust, he didn't trust, um,

[00:11:09] [SPEAKER_06]: there's no hell brand in the book, but he didn't trust Anatar and we'll get

[00:11:12] [SPEAKER_06]: into Anatar a little bit later, but I think it's a good, um, vehicle to

[00:11:18] [SPEAKER_06]: create a little bit of tension on screen.

[00:11:22] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.

[00:11:23] [SPEAKER_06]: And to show those alliances shifting, I guess, and to have Kuran kind of be

[00:11:29] [SPEAKER_06]: the impetus for that, for Elrond.

[00:11:31] [SPEAKER_06]: And we still sort of don't know how that's going to go because that very

[00:11:36] [SPEAKER_06]: final scene with, um, when Elrond, Galadriel finds out that Elrond's

[00:11:41] [SPEAKER_06]: going to be her boss on the mission.

[00:11:43] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.

[00:11:45] [SPEAKER_06]: Um, and he just gives her this look and she gives him a look back.

[00:11:51] [SPEAKER_06]: I like, I love Morford Clark's acting because there's some scenes where I go.

[00:11:56] [SPEAKER_06]: She could be thinking this or she could be thinking the exact opposite.

[00:11:59] [SPEAKER_06]: She's really good at that.

[00:12:01] [SPEAKER_06]: There's been several scenes like that with her because I could not

[00:12:04] [SPEAKER_06]: tell from that look and I watched it a few times.

[00:12:07] [SPEAKER_06]: Is she annoyed or is she really quite pleased?

[00:12:10] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:12:11] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, she, she wants to go on the mission and she did admit that she

[00:12:18] [SPEAKER_00]: doesn't really trust herself.

[00:12:20] [SPEAKER_00]: And so she is happy, I think that Elrond is going, but a little annoyed that she

[00:12:27] [SPEAKER_00]: got sort of called out by the king in front of him about it.

[00:12:35] [SPEAKER_00]: She, when she first went to Elrond, she sort of pretended like it was her idea

[00:12:39] [SPEAKER_00]: to have him come on the mission and that she was just extending this

[00:12:43] [SPEAKER_00]: invitation to him out of the, you know, out of friendship or respect or

[00:12:47] [SPEAKER_00]: something.

[00:12:47] [SPEAKER_00]: And then, you know, he pushes back and she's like, well, the king trusts you.

[00:12:51] [SPEAKER_00]: And he's like, yeah, dog is steadfast.

[00:12:55] [SPEAKER_00]: And then she's like, the king won't let me go unless you go.

[00:12:57] [SPEAKER_00]: Like he had to force her to say it.

[00:13:02] [SPEAKER_00]: And I think her pride was a little dinged, but now that it's been out,

[00:13:07] [SPEAKER_00]: it's out there that she doesn't feel safe without Elrond as like a baby

[00:13:11] [SPEAKER_00]: sitter almost.

[00:13:13] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know in that scene, she seemed annoyed to me, but I got the feeling

[00:13:18] [SPEAKER_00]: it wasn't because he was in charge.

[00:13:19] [SPEAKER_00]: It was because of how it went down.

[00:13:22] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.

[00:13:23] [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, I think overall I did really like, I just, one of the things I

[00:13:30] [SPEAKER_06]: loved about this episode sort of related to that is that relationship

[00:13:35] [SPEAKER_06]: between Galadriel and Gugallad just seemed to settle down a little bit.

[00:13:38] [SPEAKER_06]: And instead of being the finger wagging and the impestuous child and

[00:13:42] [SPEAKER_06]: finger wagging dad, it felt more like they were, and he even says, you know,

[00:13:46] [SPEAKER_06]: we're temporarily aligned kind of thing.

[00:13:49] [SPEAKER_06]: But they did listen to each other more and they did pay attention a bit

[00:13:53] [SPEAKER_06]: more.

[00:13:54] [SPEAKER_06]: And yeah, Gugallad grew on me a huge amount in this episode.

[00:13:59] [SPEAKER_06]: He got more interesting.

[00:14:01] [SPEAKER_00]: They gave him things to say that weren't just exposition or pronouncements.

[00:14:06] [SPEAKER_00]: So that was lovely.

[00:14:08] [SPEAKER_00]: I liked the scene when they sort of compared what the rings were doing.

[00:14:12] [SPEAKER_00]: To them.

[00:14:13] [SPEAKER_00]: Right?

[00:14:13] [SPEAKER_00]: She's having these prescient visions and he's having visions of sort of

[00:14:19] [SPEAKER_00]: vague visions of darkness, but dark omens, but not as specific

[00:14:23] [SPEAKER_00]: apparently as hers.

[00:14:26] [SPEAKER_00]: Uh, it's yeah, it's interesting.

[00:14:27] [SPEAKER_00]: It reminds me of how, um, I, I guess I have Slayer on the brain, how

[00:14:33] [SPEAKER_00]: Buffy and Faith, even when they're at odds with each other are the only

[00:14:36] [SPEAKER_00]: people who truly understand each other.

[00:14:39] [SPEAKER_00]: And so they always have this commonality, even though they also

[00:14:43] [SPEAKER_00]: have this like long history of enmity.

[00:14:47] [SPEAKER_00]: So, you know, she has a ring, he has a ring.

[00:14:50] [SPEAKER_00]: Who else are they going to talk to about it?

[00:14:51] [SPEAKER_00]: Kierdun is the only other person.

[00:14:53] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.

[00:14:53] [SPEAKER_06]: And they're experiencing a similar thing together.

[00:14:56] [SPEAKER_06]: I thought it was really interesting that Gugallad covered up his ring

[00:15:00] [SPEAKER_06]: when she was talking about it.

[00:15:02] [SPEAKER_06]: And also he's taken off the rest of his King Bling.

[00:15:05] [SPEAKER_06]: He's only wearing that.

[00:15:06] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.

[00:15:07] [SPEAKER_06]: It's only that ring, which is really interesting because I don't

[00:15:08] [SPEAKER_06]: definitely noticed all this other bling when you first put it on.

[00:15:13] [SPEAKER_06]: Um, so that was really cool.

[00:15:15] [SPEAKER_06]: And yeah, I like, um, that they're comparing what, what they,

[00:15:20] [SPEAKER_06]: what the powers that it has and because the rings, so the three

[00:15:26] [SPEAKER_06]: rings, um, they don't give you new powers, but they're supposed to

[00:15:31] [SPEAKER_06]: enhance the powers that you've already got.

[00:15:33] [SPEAKER_06]: Um, and I like when Gilgallad says to her, you believe the

[00:15:38] [SPEAKER_06]: rings have kindled your ability to see that which has not yet come to pass.

[00:15:43] [SPEAKER_06]: And I loved the wording of that.

[00:15:45] [SPEAKER_06]: It's really similar to Galadriel's mirror.

[00:15:48] [SPEAKER_06]: And those of you who continue on each week to listen to our spoilers,

[00:15:51] [SPEAKER_06]: you'll hear the clip of Galadriel there from the Peter Jackson movie.

[00:15:55] [SPEAKER_06]: In the movie, she says things that were things that are, and some

[00:15:59] [SPEAKER_06]: things that have not yet come to pass.

[00:16:02] [SPEAKER_06]: So the wording was actually really similar.

[00:16:04] [SPEAKER_06]: Um, but it's slightly different from the book.

[00:16:06] [SPEAKER_06]: So the book says, um, what you will see if you leave the mirror free to work.

[00:16:11] [SPEAKER_06]: I cannot tell for it shows things that were and things that

[00:16:14] [SPEAKER_06]: are, and things that yet may be.

[00:16:17] [SPEAKER_06]: So the whole things that have not yet come to pass is a

[00:16:20] [SPEAKER_06]: direct callback, I think.

[00:16:21] [SPEAKER_06]: And I really like that.

[00:16:23] [SPEAKER_06]: And Galadriel actually had this gift early on.

[00:16:27] [SPEAKER_06]: So way, way before she got the ring, she had this gift of

[00:16:29] [SPEAKER_06]: insight into the minds of others.

[00:16:31] [SPEAKER_06]: Um, but she generally would judge them with mercy and

[00:16:35] [SPEAKER_06]: understanding.

[00:16:35] [SPEAKER_06]: And she held this, um, this, she only, she basically treated everyone

[00:16:40] [SPEAKER_06]: really well with that except for, um, Feanor.

[00:16:43] [SPEAKER_06]: So, um, if you remember Feanor is her uncle and he's the one that led

[00:16:49] [SPEAKER_06]: the charge out of Felanor to go and, um, and hunt down Morgoth.

[00:16:53] [SPEAKER_06]: But he, um, which sounds good in itself, but he did a lot of awful things.

[00:16:58] [SPEAKER_06]: Um, we can read the Silmarillion if you really want to know.

[00:17:00] [SPEAKER_06]: Um, but in him, she perceived this darkness and she, she was the, she

[00:17:05] [SPEAKER_06]: basically judged him for it, but was fine with everybody else.

[00:17:08] [SPEAKER_06]: So anytime that she could perceive the thoughts of others, she didn't

[00:17:10] [SPEAKER_06]: use it for evil or for, you know, to manipulate them.

[00:17:13] [SPEAKER_06]: She, she really just used it for good.

[00:17:16] [SPEAKER_06]: Um, and I found us a cool little snippet here as well, um, from

[00:17:20] [SPEAKER_06]: the unfinished tales, um, in a letter to his friend, um, Tolkien stated

[00:17:26] [SPEAKER_06]: that the rings of power could only enhance the natural powers of the

[00:17:29] [SPEAKER_06]: princess, but not grant entirely new powers.

[00:17:32] [SPEAKER_06]: And these powers that Galadriel had were from an early age before she

[00:17:37] [SPEAKER_06]: obtained the ring Nenya and they included being able to perceive

[00:17:40] [SPEAKER_06]: the thoughts of others, communicate over vast distances, predict the

[00:17:44] [SPEAKER_06]: future and even cloak her mind from other powerful beings.

[00:17:48] [SPEAKER_06]: And she once stated that Sauron could not perceive her mind,

[00:17:51] [SPEAKER_06]: although she could perceive his.

[00:17:53] [SPEAKER_06]: So there's an interesting little piece of law that's, um, fairly deep

[00:17:56] [SPEAKER_06]: and sort of seems to contradict some of the things that we're seeing on screen.

[00:18:00] [SPEAKER_06]: But again, Tolkien himself contradicted himself sometimes.

[00:18:03] [SPEAKER_06]: So, um, yeah, I like that.

[00:18:06] [SPEAKER_06]: And I like that he, the thing I love about that scene was that it

[00:18:10] [SPEAKER_06]: shows that he knows her, you know, cause all the other scenes,

[00:18:13] [SPEAKER_06]: it seemed a lot like she's just coming in and she's done something bad

[00:18:16] [SPEAKER_06]: and he's telling her off.

[00:18:17] [SPEAKER_06]: This is a lot more like he actually understands her and knows her and is

[00:18:21] [SPEAKER_06]: seeing the effect of the ring on her, which I liked a lot more.

[00:18:23] [SPEAKER_00]: It showed history.

[00:18:24] [SPEAKER_00]: There was a history feeling between them and the conversation and also,

[00:18:30] [SPEAKER_00]: uh, a sense of mutual respect that I hadn't really seen before.

[00:18:37] [SPEAKER_00]: He just always seemed irritated with her existence before.

[00:18:41] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, exactly.

[00:18:44] [SPEAKER_06]: Yep.

[00:18:46] [SPEAKER_06]: Anything else about Curda in the end of the scene with, um, with Elrond?

[00:18:50] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:18:50] [SPEAKER_00]: Uh, so he goes on after saying the thing about the drunk poet.

[00:18:54] [SPEAKER_00]: Um, Elrond says, I wish I could know your piece and, and

[00:18:58] [SPEAKER_00]: Ciaran says you can.

[00:19:00] [SPEAKER_00]: We do not yet fully understand these rings, but look at the power

[00:19:04] [SPEAKER_00]: they exert over every form of life.

[00:19:06] [SPEAKER_00]: And that's when he puts his hand in the water and draws the fish to him

[00:19:10] [SPEAKER_00]: and then flips one fish out on the bank, which I have to admit was really

[00:19:14] [SPEAKER_00]: cool and that would be a cool power.

[00:19:17] [SPEAKER_00]: In Sauron's hands, they could work an evil beyond reckoning,

[00:19:21] [SPEAKER_00]: dominating the minds and wills of all.

[00:19:23] [SPEAKER_00]: This is why they must remain in the hands of the elves.

[00:19:27] [SPEAKER_00]: And I just questioned whether that's actually a logical series of statements

[00:19:32] [SPEAKER_00]: because they're very powerful.

[00:19:35] [SPEAKER_00]: If Sauron gets them, they could, they could do something horrible.

[00:19:39] [SPEAKER_00]: We don't fully understand them.

[00:19:41] [SPEAKER_00]: So we got to hold onto them instead of like, we got to destroy them.

[00:19:45] [SPEAKER_00]: We can't let him, or we got to just keep them safe.

[00:19:47] [SPEAKER_00]: He's, he's not saying like we shouldn't wear them.

[00:19:49] [SPEAKER_00]: We shouldn't use the power.

[00:19:50] [SPEAKER_00]: He's like, let's use the power.

[00:19:52] [SPEAKER_00]: Um, we're so good.

[00:19:54] [SPEAKER_00]: We elves are so incorruptible and awesome that like, even if Sauron has

[00:19:59] [SPEAKER_00]: a plan for these rings, we're going to be good.

[00:20:02] [SPEAKER_00]: It's just very arrogant to my mind.

[00:20:05] [SPEAKER_00]: He says you are wise to fear this power Elrond, but do not let that

[00:20:08] [SPEAKER_00]: fear blind you to the ways it can be used for good, for it is not your

[00:20:12] [SPEAKER_00]: enemy that bears these rings, but your most trusted friends.

[00:20:16] [SPEAKER_00]: It reminds me of the sort of thinking that, that got us, you know, Oppenheimer

[00:20:22] [SPEAKER_00]: and, and the atomic bomb and that a lot of scientists and technologists use

[00:20:29] [SPEAKER_00]: for things like AI that like, oh, but we're going to use it for good things.

[00:20:32] [SPEAKER_00]: Just because it could be used for bad things doesn't mean we are

[00:20:35] [SPEAKER_00]: going to use it for bad things.

[00:20:36] [SPEAKER_00]: And then it, it always ends up being used for bad things.

[00:20:42] [SPEAKER_00]: And I know I've seen too many movies and, you know, I think

[00:20:46] [SPEAKER_00]: Terminator could really happen, but I'm kidding.

[00:20:49] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't believe in robot time travel.

[00:20:51] [SPEAKER_00]: Uh, but I do believe that with great power comes great responsibility

[00:20:57] [SPEAKER_00]: to quote Spider-Man and assuming that we're a good person and

[00:21:02] [SPEAKER_00]: incorruptible and therefore can handle great power is the highest form of hubris.

[00:21:07] [SPEAKER_00]: And it's Shakespearean.

[00:21:10] [SPEAKER_00]: It's biblical.

[00:21:11] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, it goes back to the roots of, of Western culture

[00:21:14] [SPEAKER_00]: to know that power corrupts.

[00:21:19] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.

[00:21:20] [SPEAKER_05]: I, um, I agree.

[00:21:23] [SPEAKER_06]: I think, first of all, I think you're very timely with your Terminator reference

[00:21:27] [SPEAKER_06]: because I saw something on Facebook yesterday.

[00:21:30] [SPEAKER_06]: I think it said August the 29th, 2024 was the date that

[00:21:34] [SPEAKER_06]: Skynet became self aware.

[00:21:38] [SPEAKER_06]: Like, yay, didn't happen.

[00:21:40] [SPEAKER_06]: I don't think two days ago.

[00:21:41] [SPEAKER_00]: That we know of.

[00:21:43] Yeah.

[00:21:44] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.

[00:21:45] [SPEAKER_06]: And I think like, yeah, it's interesting because he doesn't sort of, he talks

[00:21:53] [SPEAKER_06]: about the reason for it being good is that we're just going to not let

[00:21:58] [SPEAKER_06]: Sauron get his hands on it because Sauron would use it for bad.

[00:22:02] [SPEAKER_06]: He doesn't really focus much on the good that they've seen about

[00:22:06] [SPEAKER_06]: the healing of the tree and the, you know, the, what we've seen

[00:22:11] [SPEAKER_06]: about the, the elves and you know, like it's, but it's more that he's focusing

[00:22:16] [SPEAKER_06]: on not what will be bad about it instead of what will be good.

[00:22:19] [SPEAKER_06]: You know what I mean?

[00:22:20] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:22:21] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:22:22] [SPEAKER_00]: He, his argument just doesn't, maybe this is again, my lawyer brain,

[00:22:27] [SPEAKER_00]: but like, where's your evidence?

[00:22:28] [SPEAKER_00]: Where's your backup?

[00:22:29] [SPEAKER_00]: That's not logical.

[00:22:30] [SPEAKER_00]: You didn't make a good case.

[00:22:32] [SPEAKER_00]: You're making an emotional argument, not a logical one.

[00:22:36] [SPEAKER_00]: Uh, he just seems to be enchanted by the rings, frankly.

[00:22:40] [SPEAKER_00]: And it, it kind of reminds me of like when someone who you know is, is

[00:22:45] [SPEAKER_00]: very smart and capable and they fall for the wrong person and make

[00:22:51] [SPEAKER_00]: all kinds of bad decisions.

[00:22:53] [SPEAKER_00]: And you're like, where is the friend I knew?

[00:22:56] [SPEAKER_00]: Like what happened?

[00:22:57] [SPEAKER_00]: And it's just that sometimes beauty or power or whatever seduces you

[00:23:02] [SPEAKER_00]: and you lose your ability to make rational decisions.

[00:23:06] [SPEAKER_00]: I think Kierdaan is ring blinded.

[00:23:11] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.

[00:23:11] [SPEAKER_06]: And I think all three of them, you know, we talked just before about

[00:23:14] [SPEAKER_06]: them and enhancing your natural abilities.

[00:23:18] [SPEAKER_06]: Um, one of, one of the, the show is true to the book in that, um, you

[00:23:24] [SPEAKER_06]: know, one of the main powers of the rings, especially the three rings

[00:23:27] [SPEAKER_06]: was to prevent and de-accelerate decay and change.

[00:23:31] [SPEAKER_06]: And so the flip side of that is also that yeah, it's enhancing

[00:23:34] [SPEAKER_06]: their own abilities.

[00:23:36] [SPEAKER_06]: So maybe, maybe what, what a, what a Kierdaan super powers.

[00:23:42] [SPEAKER_06]: He's patient.

[00:23:43] [SPEAKER_06]: He's got, he's kind of got a little bit of foresight, but

[00:23:46] [SPEAKER_06]: he's generally just wise.

[00:23:49] [SPEAKER_00]: Um, he's creative.

[00:23:51] [SPEAKER_06]: Yep.

[00:23:52] [SPEAKER_06]: Galadriel has got the, um, the ability to see things that might

[00:23:57] [SPEAKER_06]: happen and we'll go into her, we'll go into her vision in a minute.

[00:24:00] [SPEAKER_06]: Um, and, um, we've also got Gilgalad and not only did I see him not wearing

[00:24:10] [SPEAKER_06]: the rest of his bling, but there was also a scene where I think it was

[00:24:13] [SPEAKER_06]: when Galadriel came in and he's just sitting there staring at the ring.

[00:24:17] [SPEAKER_06]: Um, which is quite interesting.

[00:24:19] [SPEAKER_06]: So it's enhancing his abilities.

[00:24:21] [SPEAKER_06]: What are his abilities?

[00:24:22] [SPEAKER_06]: He's a good leader.

[00:24:23] [SPEAKER_06]: He's a good King.

[00:24:24] [SPEAKER_06]: Um, he wants the best for his people, all that sort of stuff.

[00:24:28] [SPEAKER_06]: So, okay.

[00:24:29] [SPEAKER_06]: And I don't think it is very, it's true to the book, but it's taking it a bit

[00:24:34] [SPEAKER_06]: further so you don't see in the book or all three of them got a little bit,

[00:24:38] [SPEAKER_06]: you know, glowy eyed and excited and enamored of the rings.

[00:24:41] [SPEAKER_06]: It really doesn't talk about that much at all.

[00:24:43] [SPEAKER_06]: It talks about them wearing them and keeping them safe and so on.

[00:24:46] [SPEAKER_06]: But it is, it is cool to see what they're doing with the

[00:24:48] [SPEAKER_06]: show and it's visual representation.

[00:24:49] [SPEAKER_06]: And again, it's, it's to make the show more interesting and exciting.

[00:24:53] [SPEAKER_00]: Isn't the Silmarillion mostly written from the perspective of the elves?

[00:25:00] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.

[00:25:00] [SPEAKER_06]: So it's their history.

[00:25:01] [SPEAKER_06]: So it's what even they said, but I don't want to say where.

[00:25:04] [SPEAKER_00]: We were so tempted by corruption and by power.

[00:25:07] [SPEAKER_00]: Like they, they kind of left.

[00:25:08] [SPEAKER_00]: We safeguarded the rings.

[00:25:10] [SPEAKER_00]: We're the safeguards.

[00:25:12] [SPEAKER_00]: Uh, it would be interesting to know how a different race

[00:25:15] [SPEAKER_00]: might write the history.

[00:25:18] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.

[00:25:18] [SPEAKER_06]: And that's why it cracked me up.

[00:25:19] [SPEAKER_06]: And we will go into this in depth too, but it cracked me up that line where,

[00:25:24] [SPEAKER_06]: um, Calabrian boy says to Annatar, um, for men, but men are covetous.

[00:25:29] [SPEAKER_06]: So I'm like, elves come on, you've got the shiniest robes and you've

[00:25:33] [SPEAKER_06]: got the fanciest towers and you've got all the things and all the men so

[00:25:38] [SPEAKER_06]: far that we've seen are just like, you know, working the land and wearing

[00:25:42] [SPEAKER_06]: rags.

[00:25:43] [SPEAKER_06]: Well, apart from them.

[00:25:44] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, they're covetous.

[00:25:45] [SPEAKER_00]: You have, you have the immortality and wealth.

[00:25:50] [SPEAKER_00]: Like they want what you have.

[00:25:52] [SPEAKER_00]: This is like when rich people are like, Oh, those poor people are so greedy.

[00:25:56] [SPEAKER_00]: They want, you know, in the U S there's a lot of talk about livable wages

[00:26:01] [SPEAKER_00]: and raising the minimum wage because it's, it's ridiculous how low it is.

[00:26:06] [SPEAKER_00]: And the arguments I hear from people who have never had to worry about making

[00:26:11] [SPEAKER_00]: rent is always like, Oh, these poor people just want to be able to have

[00:26:16] [SPEAKER_00]: like, you know, cable TV and fancy cars.

[00:26:21] [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm like food and medicine.

[00:26:23] [SPEAKER_00]: They want food and medicine.

[00:26:26] [SPEAKER_00]: They're not actually asking you to give them wealth.

[00:26:30] [SPEAKER_00]: They're actually asking for a living, like healthy amount of money

[00:26:36] [SPEAKER_00]: to live in our society.

[00:26:38] [SPEAKER_00]: And calling men covetous from your castle is just, it's rich.

[00:26:43] [SPEAKER_06]: That's a bit much.

[00:26:44] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.

[00:26:44] [SPEAKER_06]: And that's the thing.

[00:26:45] [SPEAKER_06]: It's like, if you've got the, the least money you have, the more you

[00:26:48] [SPEAKER_06]: have to think about money, that's it.

[00:26:50] [SPEAKER_06]: You know, the more money you have, you pay someone else to think about

[00:26:52] [SPEAKER_06]: money so you don't have to think about it.

[00:26:54] [SPEAKER_06]: And then you don't have enough.

[00:26:55] [SPEAKER_00]: Like money is crass.

[00:26:57] [SPEAKER_00]: It's for, you know, I'm above it.

[00:27:00] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, exactly.

[00:27:00] [SPEAKER_00]: Must be nice.

[00:27:06] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.

[00:27:06] [SPEAKER_06]: Well, that's, that's Kierdan.

[00:27:08] [SPEAKER_06]: I did, I definitely agree with everything you're saying about him.

[00:27:11] [SPEAKER_06]: I still love him and we'll watch him.

[00:27:13] [SPEAKER_06]: Um, I could watch a whole show with him.

[00:27:15] [SPEAKER_06]: Uh, that actor Ben Daniel was his stage train.

[00:27:18] [SPEAKER_06]: So you can kind of see this, this power and, um, you know, that

[00:27:22] [SPEAKER_06]: it's always spoken of that stage actors, you know, they have to act much bigger.

[00:27:28] [SPEAKER_06]: They have to have much bigger and louder expressions and just then when

[00:27:31] [SPEAKER_06]: they translate that to screen, um, they have to tone that down a little bit.

[00:27:36] [SPEAKER_06]: But what I can see in his performance is that I can see all that power and

[00:27:41] [SPEAKER_06]: gravity and, but he's controlled it.

[00:27:43] [SPEAKER_06]: And I think that suits the character as well.

[00:27:45] [SPEAKER_06]: I just think it's just perfect, perfect casting.

[00:27:48] [SPEAKER_06]: Love him.

[00:27:49] [SPEAKER_00]: They did this amazing thing with him and foundation.

[00:27:52] [SPEAKER_00]: Uh, the character he played was in a long-term romantic partnership

[00:27:57] [SPEAKER_00]: with this other character and they had been separated for many years

[00:28:01] [SPEAKER_00]: and then they get back together.

[00:28:02] [SPEAKER_00]: And the performance of the two actors was really powerful.

[00:28:07] [SPEAKER_00]: And you really felt like they were a couple that had been a couple for

[00:28:11] [SPEAKER_00]: like years and years and years.

[00:28:13] [SPEAKER_00]: And it, I found out that those two actors had just done a run for

[00:28:19] [SPEAKER_00]: like a year and a half on London's West end of a play where they were a

[00:28:23] [SPEAKER_00]: couple by casting them in foundation as a couple, they just like pulled

[00:28:28] [SPEAKER_00]: the chemistry from the play and like plunked it on the screen.

[00:28:32] [SPEAKER_00]: It was fantastic result.

[00:28:34] [SPEAKER_00]: Uh, really fun to watch.

[00:28:36] [SPEAKER_06]: And you, you've started interview with a vampire, but you

[00:28:39] [SPEAKER_06]: haven't got up to where he's in it.

[00:28:41] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't think so.

[00:28:42] [SPEAKER_00]: No, I'm, I am at the very beginning of season two.

[00:28:47] [SPEAKER_06]: Oh, you'll see, you'll meet him soon.

[00:28:49] [SPEAKER_06]: He's, uh, I'm looking forward to it.

[00:28:53] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:28:54] [SPEAKER_00]: I hope we get a lot more of him this season.

[00:28:56] [SPEAKER_00]: He's, he's fun to watch.

[00:28:58] [SPEAKER_05]: He's great.

[00:28:59] [SPEAKER_00]: And I like his house that looks like a ship.

[00:29:02] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.

[00:29:02] [SPEAKER_06]: It's beautiful.

[00:29:03] [SPEAKER_06]: It's beautifully done.

[00:29:07] [SPEAKER_06]: Okay.

[00:29:07] [SPEAKER_06]: I am really keen to get straight in and talk about an attack and

[00:29:12] [SPEAKER_06]: caliber and bore.

[00:29:13] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.

[00:29:16] [SPEAKER_06]: So, um, a bit of background again about caliber and bore because we

[00:29:20] [SPEAKER_06]: talked a little bit about him last season, but I'm just to kind of

[00:29:23] [SPEAKER_06]: catch people up, um, we have got caliber and bore who is an elf.

[00:29:28] [SPEAKER_06]: One of the, one of the older elves, his name in Sundaran means silver

[00:29:33] [SPEAKER_06]: fist, which I thought was quite cool.

[00:29:36] [SPEAKER_06]: Um, he was born in Valinor during the years of the trees.

[00:29:40] [SPEAKER_06]: So Fiannau, the one who led the elves out of Valinor to go and

[00:29:43] [SPEAKER_06]: fight Morgoth was his grandfather.

[00:29:45] [SPEAKER_06]: Fiannau was actually Galadriel's uncle.

[00:29:48] [SPEAKER_06]: So she's kind of like his sort of like his aunt first cousin once

[00:29:52] [SPEAKER_06]: removed or something like that.

[00:29:54] [SPEAKER_06]: Wait a minute.

[00:29:54] [SPEAKER_00]: Fiannau was her uncle and caliber and bore.

[00:29:59] [SPEAKER_00]: So that makes her his first cousin once removed.

[00:30:06] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.

[00:30:06] [SPEAKER_06]: Yep.

[00:30:07] [SPEAKER_06]: But yeah, the generation above, but you can't, yeah, that doesn't

[00:30:10] [SPEAKER_06]: necessarily mean she's a lot older because of course these guys are all

[00:30:14] [SPEAKER_06]: thousands and thousands of years old.

[00:30:15] [SPEAKER_06]: So if it's a hundred years here and there, it doesn't really make much

[00:30:17] [SPEAKER_06]: difference.

[00:30:18] [SPEAKER_06]: Um, but Fiannau was really skilled in craftsmanship.

[00:30:22] [SPEAKER_06]: He passed those skills to his son, Curafin and then onto his

[00:30:26] [SPEAKER_06]: grandson, Calabrimbor.

[00:30:28] [SPEAKER_06]: After the trees were destroyed by Morgoth, Calabrimbor followed Fiannau

[00:30:32] [SPEAKER_06]: to Middle-earth and he was also close with Finrod, Galadriel's brother.

[00:30:35] [SPEAKER_06]: So he met him in season one.

[00:30:37] [SPEAKER_06]: And the books Finrod is a king, he's an elven king.

[00:30:41] [SPEAKER_06]: Um, and at one stage, Calabrimbor's father and uncle tried to

[00:30:44] [SPEAKER_06]: wrest power from Finrod and they ended up getting exiled, but

[00:30:47] [SPEAKER_06]: Calabrimbor stayed true to Finrod.

[00:30:50] [SPEAKER_06]: And he went off and established Eregion with Galadriel and Calaborn.

[00:30:55] [SPEAKER_06]: And some believe, and it's in some of the writings that, um, the

[00:30:59] [SPEAKER_06]: reason why Eregion is close to Khazad-dum is the relationship and

[00:31:03] [SPEAKER_06]: friendship with the dwarves and actually its source of Mithril as well.

[00:31:07] [SPEAKER_06]: So when we see it on the screen, it looks like it's been

[00:31:10] [SPEAKER_06]: established and it's been there for quite a while.

[00:31:12] [SPEAKER_06]: Um, but that's one of the reasons why it was there.

[00:31:14] [SPEAKER_06]: He always wanted to rival the skill and fame of his grandfather,

[00:31:17] [SPEAKER_06]: Fëanor, and he became great friends with the dwarves.

[00:31:21] [SPEAKER_06]: And we see him in this episode making a Theldin, um, which means

[00:31:25] [SPEAKER_06]: star moon and remember the silver markings on the doors of Durin and

[00:31:30] [SPEAKER_06]: the fellowship of the ring when the fellowship are going past that lake

[00:31:33] [SPEAKER_06]: and then they get to the door and they have to say the right words

[00:31:36] [SPEAKER_06]: and it'll open and it has to be shining with starlight.

[00:31:40] [SPEAKER_06]: So Calabrimbor actually made that door.

[00:31:41] [SPEAKER_06]: So he makes the a Theldin, he invents a Theldin pretty much.

[00:31:44] [SPEAKER_06]: And he made the door along with a dwarf called Navi.

[00:31:48] [SPEAKER_06]: Navi's not in this show, but I can just imagine him having a good friend and

[00:31:52] [SPEAKER_06]: you know, making all these cool things out of Mithril.

[00:31:55] [SPEAKER_06]: Uh, I do really love the portrayal of Calabrimbor in this episode.

[00:31:59] [SPEAKER_06]: I feel like there has been some episodes previously where he seemed

[00:32:04] [SPEAKER_06]: a little bit kind of clueless and bumbling at times.

[00:32:08] [SPEAKER_06]: Um, but I do feel like in this one, they pay enough tribute to his

[00:32:12] [SPEAKER_06]: mastery that he does have and his skill and his, um, you know, he's running,

[00:32:18] [SPEAKER_06]: he's running the show.

[00:32:19] [SPEAKER_06]: He's telling, he's telling his interns or whatever they are, the

[00:32:22] [SPEAKER_06]: the Elfsmiths, um, how things are going to be, but they still sort of

[00:32:26] [SPEAKER_06]: show how he could be swayed as well.

[00:32:28] [SPEAKER_06]: And you might think, well, surely he wouldn't be taken in because

[00:32:32] [SPEAKER_06]: we talked about this last time.

[00:32:34] [SPEAKER_06]: How on earth is, how Brian going to come back and still be able

[00:32:37] [SPEAKER_06]: to convince him.

[00:32:39] [SPEAKER_06]: And I do really like that he says several times, you know, no, we're

[00:32:43] [SPEAKER_06]: not letting him in, that's it.

[00:32:44] [SPEAKER_06]: Galadriel taught me not to talk to him.

[00:32:45] [SPEAKER_06]: So we're not going to do that.

[00:32:47] [SPEAKER_06]: Um, but remember also Sauron can bend people too as well.

[00:32:51] [SPEAKER_06]: So you can be a really strong person and he can still get into your mind

[00:32:54] [SPEAKER_06]: and he knows exactly what to say.

[00:32:57] [SPEAKER_06]: And they've taken great care to show this quite a few

[00:32:58] [SPEAKER_06]: times in this show as well.

[00:33:02] [SPEAKER_06]: Um, and even in the same episode, so Gurgala says to Galadriel,

[00:33:05] [SPEAKER_06]: it is said that once the deceiver obtains a being's trust, he gains

[00:33:09] [SPEAKER_06]: the ability to sculpt their very thoughts, to deceive not only their

[00:33:12] [SPEAKER_06]: heart and mind, but their eyes and ears to alter their very reality.

[00:33:18] [SPEAKER_06]: And, and that's what we're seeing here with, with Anatar.

[00:33:22] [SPEAKER_06]: Um, so we finally get to meet him.

[00:33:25] [SPEAKER_06]: So the correct pronunciation, I'm really glad that they're

[00:33:28] [SPEAKER_06]: actually pronouncing it right.

[00:33:29] [SPEAKER_06]: So it's Anatar.

[00:33:30] [SPEAKER_06]: So in, in Alvin or Alvish language, um, the two N's together, uh, pronounced

[00:33:37] [SPEAKER_06]: with a long N.

[00:33:38] [SPEAKER_06]: So it's a little bit more like, um, like the word unnamed.

[00:33:43] [SPEAKER_06]: So rather than the name Anna, which just goes, you know, quickly,

[00:33:48] [SPEAKER_06]: it's An-anatar and I think it's really cool that they're pronouncing

[00:33:51] [SPEAKER_06]: that, that really, really right.

[00:33:55] [SPEAKER_06]: And he's come out of Galadriel's mirror section.

[00:33:57] [SPEAKER_06]: We talked about him quite a lot in the last few episodes of, about Anatar

[00:34:01] [SPEAKER_06]: coming along and, um, speculating a bit.

[00:34:04] [SPEAKER_06]: And we wondered how could he return to Eregion and full Calabrian

[00:34:08] [SPEAKER_06]: war when he's already been, been warned, but then, you know, partly

[00:34:12] [SPEAKER_06]: it's that, um, Alvin Smith lady that he's got, Merdania, the one,

[00:34:16] [SPEAKER_06]: you know, you're excited about her having a name.

[00:34:18] [SPEAKER_06]: She sort of takes pity on him.

[00:34:20] [SPEAKER_06]: Oh, it's a little bit cold.

[00:34:21] [SPEAKER_06]: Maybe we should go out.

[00:34:22] [SPEAKER_06]: And then you see, uh, Halbrand looking up and, uh, suddenly it starts raining

[00:34:27] [SPEAKER_06]: as well, like is he controlling the weather too?

[00:34:31] [SPEAKER_06]: Um, and of course they let him in and then chaos ensues.

[00:34:35] [SPEAKER_06]: But we did talk about the changing the order of the rings and we had

[00:34:39] [SPEAKER_06]: wondered whether this Anatar stuff was going to be in flashback

[00:34:42] [SPEAKER_06]: and clearly now it's not.

[00:34:43] [SPEAKER_06]: So they've made the three rings first and I was really skeptical about it.

[00:34:47] [SPEAKER_06]: Um, but then I went back and I looked at the ring verse, even

[00:34:51] [SPEAKER_06]: though the seven and the nine are supposed to be made first and then

[00:34:54] [SPEAKER_06]: the three and then the one, um, it's quite interesting because in

[00:34:57] [SPEAKER_06]: the, in the ring verse, um, the Alvin rings are mentioned first.

[00:35:02] [SPEAKER_06]: So they, the ring verse goes three rings for the Alvin Kings under

[00:35:06] [SPEAKER_06]: the sky, seven for the dwarf Lords and their halls of stone, nine

[00:35:09] [SPEAKER_06]: for mortal men doomed to die.

[00:35:11] [SPEAKER_06]: One for the dark Lord on his dark throne and the land of

[00:35:14] [SPEAKER_06]: Mordor where the shadows lie.

[00:35:16] [SPEAKER_06]: One ring to rule them all.

[00:35:17] [SPEAKER_06]: One ring to find them one ring to bring them all in the

[00:35:20] [SPEAKER_06]: darkness, bind them in the land of Mordor where the shadows lie.

[00:35:24] [SPEAKER_06]: So we've got all that goodness to come, but yep, three rings

[00:35:26] [SPEAKER_06]: come first in the rhyme.

[00:35:28] [SPEAKER_06]: So I'm convincing myself it's going to work.

[00:35:30] [SPEAKER_06]: I feel like they have definitely stayed true to the themes and

[00:35:33] [SPEAKER_06]: the characters still.

[00:35:34] [SPEAKER_06]: Um, so the order of it, I'm fine with it.

[00:35:36] [SPEAKER_06]: I'm on board.

[00:35:38] [SPEAKER_06]: Um, and this is all pretty true to the book in terms of how he shows up.

[00:35:44] [SPEAKER_06]: So he, Sauron puts on this fair face, he calls himself Anatar

[00:35:47] [SPEAKER_06]: and explains that he's an emissary from the Vala.

[00:35:49] [SPEAKER_06]: This happens in the book.

[00:35:51] [SPEAKER_06]: It's happening here on the show in front of us and, um, he's appealing

[00:35:55] [SPEAKER_06]: to Calibre and Boar's desire to be the best Smith.

[00:35:58] [SPEAKER_06]: He's appealing to his pride.

[00:35:59] [SPEAKER_06]: He got inside his brain and he went this dude wants to be just as good

[00:36:03] [SPEAKER_06]: at his, as his grandfather.

[00:36:04] [SPEAKER_06]: And I'm going to appeal to him and appeal to his goodness.

[00:36:08] [SPEAKER_00]: And I wrote down vanity as in lieu of pride, but yeah.

[00:36:12] [SPEAKER_06]: Yep.

[00:36:12] [SPEAKER_06]: Yep.

[00:36:13] [SPEAKER_06]: Exactly.

[00:36:13] [SPEAKER_06]: Yep.

[00:36:13] [SPEAKER_06]: It's definitely that hubris from him that he's like, I want to be the best.

[00:36:17] [SPEAKER_06]: Um, I think he wants to be the best, but I also think he is still good.

[00:36:23] [SPEAKER_06]: He still wants to protect and help and save people.

[00:36:26] [SPEAKER_06]: And they are clear in the book that he didn't get corrupted.

[00:36:30] [SPEAKER_06]: He's not corrupted or made evil by Sauron.

[00:36:33] [SPEAKER_06]: He is, he's basically just deceived and he's fooled and he's taken

[00:36:37] [SPEAKER_06]: in and you know, Sauron is doing what he can to, to manipulate him.

[00:36:42] [SPEAKER_06]: I really liked the.

[00:36:44] [SPEAKER_00]: I have a question or a sorry to interrupt, but when we talk about Sauron.

[00:36:53] [SPEAKER_00]: Um, this podcast, can we refer to him by his, like if we're talking

[00:37:02] [SPEAKER_00]: about him when he was pretending to be Hall brand, call him Hall brand.

[00:37:06] [SPEAKER_00]: And when he's pretending to be anatar, call him anatar and then sometimes

[00:37:11] [SPEAKER_00]: always also call him Sauron.

[00:37:16] [SPEAKER_00]: I guess I just want to apologize to the listeners for how that's going

[00:37:18] [SPEAKER_00]: to be a little bit confusing, but we're going to probably flip

[00:37:20] [SPEAKER_00]: around and go back and forth.

[00:37:22] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.

[00:37:22] [SPEAKER_06]: I think that's where I'm going with it when he's pretending

[00:37:25] [SPEAKER_06]: to be how brand I'm calling him.

[00:37:27] [SPEAKER_06]: How brand, although I've, I've flicked in and out of Sauron a little

[00:37:30] [SPEAKER_06]: bit, we all know who that that's who he is now.

[00:37:33] [SPEAKER_06]: Um, but I guess, yeah, like I said, with how brand they are seeing

[00:37:37] [SPEAKER_06]: him at the gate talking about.

[00:37:39] [SPEAKER_06]: You know what he's talking about with them in the form of how brand,

[00:37:44] [SPEAKER_06]: um, and they're calling him how brand.

[00:37:48] [SPEAKER_06]: And yeah, we'll be interesting to see where as we move forward, am

[00:37:52] [SPEAKER_06]: I going to be calling him Sauron?

[00:37:53] [SPEAKER_06]: Am I going to be calling him anatar?

[00:37:55] [SPEAKER_06]: We're seeing him as anatar.

[00:37:57] [SPEAKER_06]: So yeah, that is confusing.

[00:37:59] [SPEAKER_06]: Hopefully everyone knows it's all, all one in the same.

[00:38:03] [SPEAKER_06]: I really liked the transformation.

[00:38:04] [SPEAKER_06]: I thought that it was quite powerful.

[00:38:07] [SPEAKER_06]: It was pretty extreme with the whole coming out of the fire and floating

[00:38:10] [SPEAKER_06]: in the air and everything, and almost looking quite sort of Jesus

[00:38:13] [SPEAKER_06]: like or God like there.

[00:38:15] [SPEAKER_06]: I thought it was kind of cheesy.

[00:38:18] [SPEAKER_06]: Crossed the line a little.

[00:38:20] [SPEAKER_06]: Um, but I mean, I meant more like the transformation of how he looks

[00:38:23] [SPEAKER_06]: physically, so that part of the, the, the floating was quite full on.

[00:38:27] [SPEAKER_06]: But, um, I think he does look really quite different.

[00:38:30] [SPEAKER_06]: I don't just think it's hair and makeup.

[00:38:31] [SPEAKER_06]: I do wonder if they've done a little bit of prosthetic potentially

[00:38:34] [SPEAKER_06]: his face looks slightly differently shaped.

[00:38:37] [SPEAKER_06]: Maybe his nose is a little bigger.

[00:38:38] [SPEAKER_06]: I'm not sure there's something that's a little bit different.

[00:38:41] [SPEAKER_06]: They can do amazing stuff with makeup.

[00:38:41] [SPEAKER_00]: Well they've given him elf ears, so that's a prosthetic, but also

[00:38:46] [SPEAKER_00]: they can do a lot with makeup just to, to, I think they've done

[00:38:50] [SPEAKER_00]: something to change the quality of his skin to make it look a

[00:38:53] [SPEAKER_00]: little bit more like polished.

[00:38:55] [SPEAKER_06]: Glowy.

[00:38:56] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.

[00:38:56] [SPEAKER_06]: And then also the shape of someone's face changes enormously when you

[00:39:00] [SPEAKER_06]: take their hair back up off their face.

[00:39:02] [SPEAKER_06]: So he's used to having these straggly locks in his, in his face.

[00:39:04] [SPEAKER_06]: And so it does look quite different.

[00:39:06] [SPEAKER_00]: They did a really good job of having him be like max grubby before the

[00:39:11] [SPEAKER_00]: transformation so that it was really dramatic.

[00:39:14] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.

[00:39:14] [SPEAKER_06]: It's kind of like, um, Aragorn times a hundred, like going from

[00:39:18] [SPEAKER_06]: strata to King Alasdair.

[00:39:22] [SPEAKER_06]: Um, yeah.

[00:39:23] [SPEAKER_06]: And it was great acting.

[00:39:24] [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, I loved it.

[00:39:27] [SPEAKER_06]: I just think it's, I just, I have loved the acting from Charlie

[00:39:31] [SPEAKER_06]: Bickers, so he was just pretty much mostly this nice, nice guy in season

[00:39:36] [SPEAKER_06]: one and these hell brand and just some of those looks like even that look

[00:39:40] [SPEAKER_06]: last episode where he's sitting by the campfire after he's just got his

[00:39:44] [SPEAKER_06]: new body and he just stares into the fire with his evil look.

[00:39:46] [SPEAKER_06]: It's incredible.

[00:39:48] [SPEAKER_06]: I do miss his Northern accent though.

[00:39:49] [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, the irony is, you know, he's from the Southlands, but

[00:39:51] [SPEAKER_06]: he's got a Northern British accent when he's hell brand.

[00:39:55] [SPEAKER_06]: And that's gone now.

[00:39:56] [SPEAKER_06]: He's got the posh kind of, you know, Queen's English Alvin accent.

[00:40:02] [SPEAKER_00]: When he was at the gate in the rain, did he get his face got all veiny again?

[00:40:08] [SPEAKER_00]: Right?

[00:40:09] [SPEAKER_00]: Like, yeah.

[00:40:10] [SPEAKER_00]: And I was like, is he hungry?

[00:40:12] [SPEAKER_00]: Does he need to eat another villager?

[00:40:14] [SPEAKER_00]: Like what caused is, or is that anger or is that like, what causes that to happen?

[00:40:21] [SPEAKER_00]: Is he in control of it?

[00:40:23] [SPEAKER_00]: Like he looked away, like he knew it was happening and he didn't want

[00:40:25] [SPEAKER_00]: anyone to see it, but like, I just want to know more about the biology.

[00:40:29] [SPEAKER_06]: I feel like it's using his power.

[00:40:32] [SPEAKER_06]: So like when he did it on the raft and the vision on the raft to

[00:40:35] [SPEAKER_06]: Galadriel, it was him saying, you know, this is all your fault.

[00:40:39] [SPEAKER_06]: And he got all angry.

[00:40:40] [SPEAKER_06]: And then when he did it in the caverns with Adda back at

[00:40:45] [SPEAKER_06]: the start of the second age, he was exerting his power and getting angry.

[00:40:50] [SPEAKER_06]: And then I thought it was in this one, I thought it was when he

[00:40:53] [SPEAKER_06]: was controlling the weather.

[00:40:56] [SPEAKER_06]: I thought he was looking up, making it start to rain and he was, that

[00:41:00] [SPEAKER_06]: was part of his fury, but it was also a purposeful thing.

[00:41:02] [SPEAKER_06]: It was controlled.

[00:41:03] [SPEAKER_06]: It was so that Calabria would come down with his ridiculous Elven umbrella.

[00:41:09] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.

[00:41:09] [SPEAKER_06]: Did you notice the umbrella?

[00:41:11] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.

[00:41:11] [SPEAKER_06]: With Calabria's own umbrella.

[00:41:14] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:41:15] [SPEAKER_00]: I kept thinking about like, sort of like images of like the Roman

[00:41:20] [SPEAKER_00]: empire, how there was always like palm fronds.

[00:41:23] [SPEAKER_00]: Slaves in the background.

[00:41:25] [SPEAKER_06]: It's like this poor, this poor elf who's carrying the umbrella

[00:41:28] [SPEAKER_06]: doesn't have any umbrella protection himself.

[00:41:31] [SPEAKER_06]: He just got to hold it straight over Calabria.

[00:41:33] [SPEAKER_06]: That was quite cute.

[00:41:35] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:41:36] [SPEAKER_00]: And he very intentionally showed his like whip scarred back to Mirdania.

[00:41:42] [SPEAKER_00]: He was like, Oh, I just have to turn my back for a second.

[00:41:45] [SPEAKER_00]: Make sure you see blood and scars.

[00:41:48] [SPEAKER_00]: Um, I mean, it's funny because I've done a lot of reading about like

[00:41:54] [SPEAKER_00]: narcissists and narcissistic manipulation and, and Hal Brand and

[00:41:59] [SPEAKER_00]: Attar before he does his transformation, everything up until that was just

[00:42:04] [SPEAKER_00]: classic narcissist behavior.

[00:42:07] [SPEAKER_00]: First, he like zeros in on Calabria, Bremboar's insecurities.

[00:42:10] [SPEAKER_00]: He's like, Oh, Galadriel hasn't bothered to get in touch with you.

[00:42:14] [SPEAKER_00]: I wonder why she doesn't respect you that much or the king either.

[00:42:17] [SPEAKER_00]: How strange.

[00:42:18] [SPEAKER_00]: And I was like, my God, that is so high school.

[00:42:21] [SPEAKER_00]: Like, Oh, they didn't invite you to their party.

[00:42:23] [SPEAKER_00]: You must not be popular.

[00:42:25] [SPEAKER_00]: And it worked.

[00:42:27] [SPEAKER_06]: Calabria, yeah, I'm left out.

[00:42:29] [SPEAKER_06]: The very first line he hooked him in with, Oh, she said you'd say that.

[00:42:33] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.

[00:42:34] [SPEAKER_06]: And that's when Calabria was taken in like what?

[00:42:37] [SPEAKER_06]: And yeah, it was very cleverly done.

[00:42:39] [SPEAKER_00]: And then he turns them into an us against the them.

[00:42:42] [SPEAKER_00]: He, he creates Galadriel and Gilgallan.

[00:42:46] [SPEAKER_00]: They're them.

[00:42:47] [SPEAKER_00]: And you and I, the artists, the crafts people that they take advantage of are the us.

[00:42:53] [SPEAKER_06]: And so masterful.

[00:42:54] [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, I was just like, run, Calabria, Bremboar, run.

[00:42:57] [SPEAKER_00]: That's abusive behavior.

[00:43:00] [SPEAKER_06]: And do you think it was Hal Brand slash Sauron on his way there that

[00:43:06] [SPEAKER_06]: way laid the messenger elves with the, with the message for him?

[00:43:11] [SPEAKER_00]: I've been thinking about that a lot because they carefully do not show us who did it.

[00:43:16] [SPEAKER_00]: There's the weirdness of like dragging the bodies through the woods with chains.

[00:43:21] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm like, what's that about?

[00:43:22] [SPEAKER_00]: Like if he just wanted to kill them, he would just kill them and leave them there.

[00:43:25] [SPEAKER_00]: Like, where was he taking those bodies unless I guess he's hiding them.

[00:43:28] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know.

[00:43:29] [SPEAKER_00]: But he was so confident that he was going to be able to schmooze his way

[00:43:34] [SPEAKER_00]: in with Calabria Bremboar that it made me think that he definitely killed

[00:43:38] [SPEAKER_00]: those messengers.

[00:43:40] [SPEAKER_06]: I think it was just taking them off the path so that no one else

[00:43:43] [SPEAKER_06]: would find them on the way.

[00:43:45] [SPEAKER_06]: That was pretty gruesome.

[00:43:48] [SPEAKER_06]: Just them lying there with their eyes open and then just being dragged.

[00:43:50] [SPEAKER_06]: And they did a really good job of sort of flopping the bodies as they went along.

[00:43:54] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, it was pretty, it was pretty.

[00:43:55] [SPEAKER_00]: And why did he have to like slaughter the horse?

[00:43:59] [SPEAKER_00]: Horse never hurt you.

[00:44:00] [SPEAKER_00]: I guess the horse would run back to Linden, but still, I don't like

[00:44:05] [SPEAKER_00]: seeing horses get killed on TV shows.

[00:44:07] [SPEAKER_06]: No, he's a dark lord.

[00:44:09] [SPEAKER_06]: He doesn't care.

[00:44:10] [SPEAKER_00]: He's very sherry on fear of the walking dead.

[00:44:13] [SPEAKER_00]: On my list.

[00:44:15] [SPEAKER_00]: Horse killer.

[00:44:16] [SPEAKER_06]: Yep.

[00:44:17] [SPEAKER_06]: Anyway, and I love when he's transformed and he comes down and he says to

[00:44:23] [SPEAKER_06]: Calabria Bremboar, a storm is coming Calabria Bremboar.

[00:44:26] [SPEAKER_06]: I can bring you the knowledge none other possesses.

[00:44:29] [SPEAKER_06]: I can unlock your grandest abilities.

[00:44:31] [SPEAKER_06]: And when our work is complete, never again will the world overlook

[00:44:34] [SPEAKER_06]: you as the mere scion of Feinua, but forevermore revere you,

[00:44:39] [SPEAKER_06]: the Lord of the Rings.

[00:44:40] [SPEAKER_06]: So he's calling Calabria Bremboar the Lord of the Rings, which is, was such a

[00:44:44] [SPEAKER_06]: good twist and I loved the pause that he said before.

[00:44:47] [SPEAKER_06]: And after he said it, I was like, wait, I have to go back and say,

[00:44:50] [SPEAKER_06]: did he actually say that?

[00:44:52] [SPEAKER_06]: And again, like you say, you're definitely, um, appealing to his vanity.

[00:44:57] [SPEAKER_06]: You know, he's, he's not just going to be Feinua.

[00:44:59] [SPEAKER_06]: He's going to be the Lord of the Rings and yeah, he's,

[00:45:02] [SPEAKER_06]: he's got him, he sucked him in.

[00:45:04] [SPEAKER_00]: Another narcissistic manipulation, that sort of classic one is I'm the

[00:45:09] [SPEAKER_00]: only one who sees the real you and can appreciate you.

[00:45:12] [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm the only one who can love you the way you deserve to be loved.

[00:45:18] [SPEAKER_00]: Like, I'm the one who has the knowledge that you need.

[00:45:21] [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm the one who sees that you're the right person to receive it.

[00:45:24] [SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely.

[00:45:25] [SPEAKER_00]: Like, Oh my God, he's just, he's in an abusive relationship.

[00:45:29] [SPEAKER_00]: So sad.

[00:45:30] [SPEAKER_06]: And we're, and we're going to see that play out over the next few

[00:45:33] [SPEAKER_06]: episodes.

[00:45:33] [SPEAKER_06]: Um, and we've seen from the trailer, you know, he's gonna,

[00:45:35] [SPEAKER_06]: he's going to get some, it's going to get pretty dark.

[00:45:40] [SPEAKER_06]: Uh, and probably more on that in the spoiler section as well.

[00:45:44] [SPEAKER_06]: That's all I had at the moment for Caleb Rimbaud and Annatar.

[00:45:48] [SPEAKER_06]: Was there anything else that struck you in that whole sequence?

[00:45:52] [SPEAKER_00]: I think that you've covered all of it.

[00:45:54] [SPEAKER_00]: And I interrupted you for most of my points.

[00:45:57] [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, only that the, the dwarf catastrophe that we haven't talked

[00:46:01] [SPEAKER_00]: about yet is such good timing in that it opens up this need for the dwarves

[00:46:08] [SPEAKER_00]: to negotiate, which means they may be able to get more myth rail timing.

[00:46:14] [SPEAKER_00]: And makes you wonder if it's Sauron helped make that happen.

[00:46:19] [SPEAKER_00]: Hard to know how far his power reaches.

[00:46:22] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.

[00:46:22] [SPEAKER_06]: Well, we saw a real visual representation of it on the map at the start with

[00:46:27] [SPEAKER_06]: the darkness spreading out towards the cool the way that I loved.

[00:46:31] [SPEAKER_00]: How the explosion of Mount Doom like dissolved into the map that may,

[00:46:35] [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, so beautiful.

[00:46:36] [SPEAKER_00]: I've rewound it like four times.

[00:46:38] [SPEAKER_00]: I was like, wait, I want to see that again.

[00:46:39] [SPEAKER_00]: So cool.

[00:46:40] [SPEAKER_06]: And the darkness.

[00:46:41] [SPEAKER_06]: And then it's, I do, I always love a map.

[00:46:43] [SPEAKER_06]: Like I never, I'm never upset about a map being on screen and also,

[00:46:47] [SPEAKER_06]: um, being able to see this sort of distance and everything.

[00:46:51] [SPEAKER_06]: Like it's as far as middle earth goes, it's, it's still quite far,

[00:46:55] [SPEAKER_06]: but it's, you know, it's near enough that you can see it starting to

[00:46:57] [SPEAKER_06]: spread out towards, um, towards Khazad Dum.

[00:47:00] [SPEAKER_06]: And that whole sort of sequence.

[00:47:03] [SPEAKER_06]: I loved that with, um, with the sun shafts coming down.

[00:47:09] [SPEAKER_06]: Let's get into that.

[00:47:10] [SPEAKER_06]: Cause that was really cool.

[00:47:11] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:47:11] [SPEAKER_00]: First of all, yay, the dwarves.

[00:47:13] [SPEAKER_06]: Okay.

[00:47:13] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, exactly.

[00:47:16] [SPEAKER_06]: Every time they come on screen, I'm like, yay, Penny's going to be so happy.

[00:47:20] [SPEAKER_00]: I love them.

[00:47:20] [SPEAKER_00]: I just, as a, as a woman in her fifties, I also want to give a

[00:47:25] [SPEAKER_00]: shout out to, um, Deezza Rockin, the facial hair, a lot of women.

[00:47:30] [SPEAKER_00]: Uh, grow facial hair during or after menopause.

[00:47:35] [SPEAKER_00]: And you know, our society generally really does not take kindly to that.

[00:47:40] [SPEAKER_00]: And women go through lots of painful treatments to try to

[00:47:43] [SPEAKER_00]: prevent it or, or treat it.

[00:47:45] [SPEAKER_00]: And, uh, she makes it look good.

[00:47:48] [SPEAKER_06]: She looks amazing.

[00:47:50] [SPEAKER_06]: And I think in a design choice, it's really good because they

[00:47:54] [SPEAKER_06]: always talk about bearded women, you know, and Gimli talks about it

[00:47:58] [SPEAKER_06]: in quite a funny way and the Lord of the Rings.

[00:48:01] [SPEAKER_06]: Um, and you don't get a huge amount about it in the book, but I think

[00:48:05] [SPEAKER_06]: that they've designed it in such a way that pays tribute to it, but

[00:48:08] [SPEAKER_06]: without it being distracting, like she's got a full face beard.

[00:48:12] [SPEAKER_00]: Um, so I think it's definitely done.

[00:48:14] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:48:14] [SPEAKER_00]: It's a, it's a feminine version.

[00:48:16] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's cool.

[00:48:17] [SPEAKER_00]: I think she looks amazing.

[00:48:18] [SPEAKER_00]: She has like gold dust, like in her skin and she was wearing these

[00:48:22] [SPEAKER_00]: little jewels at the top of her forehead.

[00:48:24] [SPEAKER_00]: She just looked so beautiful and cool.

[00:48:27] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.

[00:48:27] [SPEAKER_06]: And her eyes glow.

[00:48:28] [SPEAKER_06]: I love that her eyes glow and I love, I love that expression.

[00:48:32] [SPEAKER_06]: I don't know if they, if they used this, these words last season,

[00:48:36] [SPEAKER_06]: but they call her a stone singer.

[00:48:38] [SPEAKER_06]: Love that so much.

[00:48:39] [SPEAKER_06]: And she's so in tune with the mountain.

[00:48:41] [SPEAKER_06]: I love that scene at the beginning where they're in the dwarf

[00:48:43] [SPEAKER_06]: supermarket and you know, they're trying to pick out which, which

[00:48:46] [SPEAKER_06]: mushrooms to buy.

[00:48:49] [SPEAKER_06]: You don't usually think about them actually having to go shopping,

[00:48:52] [SPEAKER_06]: but I guess, um, and she's so in tune with the mountain that she can

[00:48:56] [SPEAKER_06]: tell what's going to happen before it happens.

[00:48:58] [SPEAKER_06]: She can hear the resonance of it and gets down to the ground

[00:49:01] [SPEAKER_06]: and listens and tells everyone to take cover.

[00:49:03] [SPEAKER_06]: I thought that was great.

[00:49:05] [SPEAKER_06]: She's so strong and fierce.

[00:49:07] [SPEAKER_06]: I love her with King Durin.

[00:49:09] [SPEAKER_06]: She doesn't, she just doesn't put up with any crap and she,

[00:49:13] [SPEAKER_06]: the way she speaks to him is very forceful, but it's not disrespectful.

[00:49:17] [SPEAKER_06]: I think she still respects his authority, respects his position,

[00:49:21] [SPEAKER_06]: respects his relationship with, with Prince Durin.

[00:49:24] [SPEAKER_06]: But she's, she's not going to pull any punches.

[00:49:27] [SPEAKER_06]: She will tell him exactly what for.

[00:49:28] [SPEAKER_06]: And I just loved that.

[00:49:29] [SPEAKER_06]: I thought it was great.

[00:49:31] [SPEAKER_06]: And then there's that scene a little bit later after, after

[00:49:35] [SPEAKER_06]: Durin's been, been bullied at work and they're standing there.

[00:49:40] [SPEAKER_06]: And there's this moment where she stands in front of a lamp

[00:49:43] [SPEAKER_06]: and it looks like a crown behind her.

[00:49:46] [SPEAKER_06]: I don't know if you picked that up.

[00:49:47] [SPEAKER_06]: I didn't notice that.

[00:49:48] [SPEAKER_04]: That's so cool.

[00:49:49] [SPEAKER_06]: We've seen it before in another scene.

[00:49:52] [SPEAKER_06]: And I think, I can't remember if it was her or a different character,

[00:49:56] [SPEAKER_06]: but definitely in this one, she pauses for a moment in front of this lamp,

[00:49:59] [SPEAKER_06]: looks exactly like a crown and then she sort of just moves out of the

[00:50:01] [SPEAKER_06]: shot, which is really cool.

[00:50:03] [SPEAKER_06]: I love that.

[00:50:04] [SPEAKER_00]: She should totally be in charge of the dwarves.

[00:50:07] [SPEAKER_00]: I, Diza for president.

[00:50:08] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm on board.

[00:50:10] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, she's great.

[00:50:11] [SPEAKER_06]: She's really great.

[00:50:13] [SPEAKER_00]: She's so smart and she's like you said, she's direct and honest.

[00:50:18] [SPEAKER_00]: She knows her own power and she's loving.

[00:50:23] [SPEAKER_00]: It's such a lovely combination.

[00:50:25] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, that's great.

[00:50:27] [SPEAKER_06]: I thought of you again, because when she talked to Durin about

[00:50:30] [SPEAKER_06]: the grandchildren, I was like, yeah, but we want to see them.

[00:50:34] [SPEAKER_06]: Not even coming to dinner because the food is old and yuck because the

[00:50:37] [SPEAKER_06]: light doesn't come in and grow in the gardens.

[00:50:41] [SPEAKER_00]: That is last year's bread.

[00:50:42] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:50:43] [SPEAKER_00]: I, I was bummed.

[00:50:45] [SPEAKER_00]: I was like, there's another opportunity.

[00:50:46] [SPEAKER_00]: They could have had dinner with the kids.

[00:50:48] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:50:48] [SPEAKER_00]: It's like, uh, it's starting to feel like, um, Norm's wife on

[00:50:52] [SPEAKER_00]: cheers that you never see her ever.

[00:50:57] [SPEAKER_00]: That's it.

[00:50:59] [SPEAKER_06]: Um, I thought, yeah, I wasn't sure what to think of the scene with

[00:51:04] [SPEAKER_06]: Durin at work and you know, those, all those other dwarves bullying him.

[00:51:09] [SPEAKER_06]: Um, first of all, I was kind of like, why are they making out like

[00:51:13] [SPEAKER_06]: he's only now mining for the first time?

[00:51:15] [SPEAKER_06]: Cause he hasn't, he'd been mining this whole time.

[00:51:17] [SPEAKER_06]: We've seen him.

[00:51:19] [SPEAKER_06]: Mine.

[00:51:19] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.

[00:51:19] [SPEAKER_06]: So why are they making out like, Oh, you've got, you've got palace hands

[00:51:22] [SPEAKER_06]: and, and, you know, they're too soft and I haven't had blisters

[00:51:25] [SPEAKER_06]: since I was five years old.

[00:51:26] [SPEAKER_06]: Like, why are they suddenly being so mean to him?

[00:51:28] [SPEAKER_06]: I didn't quite get the point of it.

[00:51:31] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:51:31] [SPEAKER_00]: That seemed a little weird to me too.

[00:51:33] [SPEAKER_00]: It's like maybe part of being busted, you know, disinherited

[00:51:40] [SPEAKER_00]: meant being given to the like worst of the worst jobs.

[00:51:44] [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe he does more like, they said something about like, Oh,

[00:51:48] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm always polishing gems.

[00:51:50] [SPEAKER_00]: So maybe he's when it's mining, he's more supervisory and when

[00:51:54] [SPEAKER_00]: he's actually working with his hands, it's more like craftsmanship

[00:51:58] [SPEAKER_00]: as opposed to like heavy hammer use.

[00:52:01] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know.

[00:52:01] [SPEAKER_06]: I get you.

[00:52:01] [SPEAKER_06]: So he's normally like the project manager and now he's down with the,

[00:52:05] [SPEAKER_06]: with the crew on the, on the, on the floor, on the shop floor.

[00:52:10] [SPEAKER_00]: And some people get pretty excited when they have an opportunity to

[00:52:16] [SPEAKER_00]: lord it over someone that they are jealous of.

[00:52:20] [SPEAKER_00]: Right.

[00:52:20] [SPEAKER_00]: And a Prince being busted down to a grunt is a pretty prime

[00:52:24] [SPEAKER_00]: opportunity for that kind of person.

[00:52:27] [SPEAKER_06]: No, I feel there's no repercussions anymore.

[00:52:29] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.

[00:52:30] [SPEAKER_00]: It's very short-sighted because he's only been busted for a couple

[00:52:34] [SPEAKER_00]: of days, like it's not going to last.

[00:52:37] [SPEAKER_00]: Come on.

[00:52:38] [SPEAKER_00]: He's going to be a Prince again any minute.

[00:52:41] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.

[00:52:42] [SPEAKER_06]: I really want them to get it sorted out and bring back those

[00:52:45] [SPEAKER_06]: sun shafts, because I think the whole design of that and the way that

[00:52:48] [SPEAKER_06]: they make the underground area be livable and productive and fertile

[00:52:52] [SPEAKER_06]: is so great.

[00:52:54] [SPEAKER_06]: And I loved how it showed.

[00:52:55] [SPEAKER_06]: The terraced gardens.

[00:52:57] [SPEAKER_06]: And yeah, so beautiful.

[00:52:59] [SPEAKER_06]: And like when they closed and then it got darker and darker and you

[00:53:02] [SPEAKER_06]: just had the lamp light that was left, it made you realize how much

[00:53:04] [SPEAKER_06]: ambient light there is in there from those sun shafts.

[00:53:07] [SPEAKER_06]: That was really cool.

[00:53:11] [SPEAKER_00]: As usual, Kazza Dume is so gorgeous.

[00:53:15] [SPEAKER_00]: Even the market was really well realized and beautiful.

[00:53:19] [SPEAKER_00]: The earthquake was really evocative and well produced.

[00:53:24] [SPEAKER_00]: Like all of the aesthetics around the dwarves really work for me.

[00:53:28] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.

[00:53:29] [SPEAKER_05]: For sure.

[00:53:32] [SPEAKER_06]: All right.

[00:53:34] [SPEAKER_06]: Anything else on the dwarves?

[00:53:35] [SPEAKER_06]: I've got a few more.

[00:53:36] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:53:37] [SPEAKER_00]: There were.

[00:53:38] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:53:39] [SPEAKER_00]: The other stone singers were talking some smack about Duran and

[00:53:43] [SPEAKER_00]: Diza overhears them.

[00:53:45] [SPEAKER_00]: And she says, I love this.

[00:53:48] [SPEAKER_00]: I want to put this on a t-shirt.

[00:53:50] [SPEAKER_00]: A rumor is like a songbird.

[00:53:52] [SPEAKER_00]: It may sound filling from afar, but up close it's an empty feast.

[00:53:57] [SPEAKER_00]: That's great.

[00:53:59] [SPEAKER_00]: Brilliant.

[00:54:00] [SPEAKER_00]: Brilliant.

[00:54:00] [SPEAKER_00]: And people should remember it because I mean, they were like, Oh, I

[00:54:08] [SPEAKER_00]: rumoring going on there with like, Oh, it's Duran's fault for letting the

[00:54:13] [SPEAKER_00]: elf in.

[00:54:14] [SPEAKER_00]: Like that's some conspiracy theory garbage right there.

[00:54:17] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.

[00:54:17] [SPEAKER_06]: And you can see her authority with them.

[00:54:21] [SPEAKER_06]: It doesn't take much to shut them down and they're like, Oh no, no, no,

[00:54:23] [SPEAKER_06]: no, we're good.

[00:54:23] [SPEAKER_06]: We're not going to do that again.

[00:54:25] [SPEAKER_06]: Oh yeah.

[00:54:25] [SPEAKER_06]: They were terrified of her.

[00:54:26] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.

[00:54:26] [SPEAKER_06]: And this song was amazing.

[00:54:28] [SPEAKER_06]: I love their harmonizing and then her reaching forward as she's singing

[00:54:32] [SPEAKER_06]: to the mountain.

[00:54:34] [SPEAKER_06]: That was really cool.

[00:54:36] [SPEAKER_06]: But I was also like, didn't they just make it worse?

[00:54:38] [SPEAKER_06]: They sang and then it closed off even more.

[00:54:40] [SPEAKER_06]: It was not ideal.

[00:54:41] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, they did.

[00:54:41] [SPEAKER_00]: They did make it worse.

[00:54:43] [SPEAKER_00]: It really affects Diza in a deep spiritual way because she has this

[00:54:50] [SPEAKER_00]: physical, emotional, spiritual connection to the mountain that is expressed

[00:54:55] [SPEAKER_00]: through song, but also she just feels its vibrations all the time.

[00:54:58] [SPEAKER_00]: Right?

[00:54:58] [SPEAKER_00]: We saw evidence of that.

[00:55:00] [SPEAKER_00]: And she says she can't hear the mountain anymore.

[00:55:02] [SPEAKER_00]: It's like being cut off from like one of your senses.

[00:55:05] [SPEAKER_00]: It's like she's gone blind or gone deaf.

[00:55:07] [SPEAKER_00]: Like she's lost an entire way of functioning in the world and she's,

[00:55:12] [SPEAKER_00]: she's so vulnerable with Duran.

[00:55:14] [SPEAKER_00]: She's like, Duran, I'm afraid.

[00:55:16] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm afraid.

[00:55:17] [SPEAKER_00]: And we've never seen that side of Diza before.

[00:55:21] [SPEAKER_06]: No, it's really hard.

[00:55:24] [SPEAKER_06]: Deepens their relationship and just shows how strongly are together as well.

[00:55:27] [SPEAKER_06]: I really love that.

[00:55:29] [SPEAKER_00]: That's great.

[00:55:29] [SPEAKER_00]: I love their marriage.

[00:55:31] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.

[00:55:34] [SPEAKER_06]: All right.

[00:55:35] [SPEAKER_06]: I am really keen to talk about Rune.

[00:55:37] [SPEAKER_06]: Shall we go into the East?

[00:55:41] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.

[00:55:42] [SPEAKER_06]: So, so Rune is really cool to see this on screen because we haven't before.

[00:55:47] [SPEAKER_06]: Um, Rune's this land in the East and Rune itself is the Elvish word for

[00:55:51] [SPEAKER_06]: East and going back into a bit of the lore as well, when elves and men

[00:55:56] [SPEAKER_06]: were first awakened or brought into existence by Eru, the creator, they

[00:56:01] [SPEAKER_06]: first awoke in the Far East in Rune.

[00:56:04] [SPEAKER_06]: And most of the elves moved West.

[00:56:05] [SPEAKER_06]: And some of the men moved West, including the ancestors of the Edain who became

[00:56:11] [SPEAKER_06]: who later on went on to become the Numenoreans.

[00:56:14] [SPEAKER_06]: They migrated West, but some other men stayed and they became the Easterlings.

[00:56:18] [SPEAKER_06]: And we've seen the Easterlings before in the Harajrim.

[00:56:22] [SPEAKER_06]: Um, they're all men from the East and they ended up joining Sauron later.

[00:56:25] [SPEAKER_06]: And we see them in the Lord of the Rings later.

[00:56:28] [SPEAKER_06]: Um, Dwarves-

[00:56:28] [SPEAKER_00]: Oh right, they're the ones who ride the elephants.

[00:56:30] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.

[00:56:31] [SPEAKER_06]: Yep.

[00:56:31] [SPEAKER_06]: Um, and dwarves emerged after the elves, but before the men and they awoke in

[00:56:38] [SPEAKER_06]: seven different areas like scattered around Middle Earth, but some of them

[00:56:41] [SPEAKER_06]: were also in Rune.

[00:56:42] [SPEAKER_06]: So all the races that we know have been there, um, but it's largely

[00:56:46] [SPEAKER_06]: forgotten by the time that we know that we sort of come to know in Lord

[00:56:49] [SPEAKER_06]: of the Rings, and that's why we don't really see it.

[00:56:51] [SPEAKER_06]: Um, and I kind of like this idea.

[00:56:54] [SPEAKER_06]: It's, it's, you know, you can sort of see where Tolkien got it if he's

[00:56:57] [SPEAKER_06]: thinking about creating this prehistory of our own world, because the East

[00:57:01] [SPEAKER_06]: has always been seen as sort of mysterious or exotic in European cultures.

[00:57:06] [SPEAKER_06]: So you can sort of see where, where that comes from, I guess, in his writing.

[00:57:10] [SPEAKER_06]: Um, and I found a really interesting little snippet in the

[00:57:14] [SPEAKER_06]: earliest drafts of The Hobbit.

[00:57:16] [SPEAKER_06]: Bilbo, Bilbo offered to walk from the Shire to the great desert of Gobi

[00:57:20] [SPEAKER_06]: and fight the wild wireworms of the Chinese.

[00:57:23] [SPEAKER_06]: So he had actual like, you know, earthbound races and places

[00:57:26] [SPEAKER_06]: in the early drafts.

[00:57:28] [SPEAKER_06]: In a slightly later version, he altered it to say, to the last desert in the

[00:57:32] [SPEAKER_06]: East and fight the wild wireworms of the Chinese.

[00:57:35] [SPEAKER_06]: And then in the final version, he'd taken out all the references to our

[00:57:38] [SPEAKER_06]: own world and says, to the east of East and fight the wild

[00:57:42] [SPEAKER_06]: wereworms in the last desert.

[00:57:44] [SPEAKER_06]: So it's quite cool.

[00:57:45] [SPEAKER_06]: He's sort of taken it from our world and then he's, he's changed

[00:57:47] [SPEAKER_06]: it to be, to be one of these.

[00:57:50] [SPEAKER_00]: That was a forward looking decision because there is a certain element of

[00:57:56] [SPEAKER_00]: exoticism and, and it's a little racist.

[00:58:00] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, he is Tolkien was of his time.

[00:58:02] [SPEAKER_00]: And at that time that was a very common view of, of the East, but I'm,

[00:58:08] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm glad he just made everything fictional.

[00:58:11] [SPEAKER_00]: It would have been awkward and uncomfortable.

[00:58:14] [SPEAKER_06]: Definitely.

[00:58:15] [SPEAKER_06]: I love how different it looks to everything else we've seen.

[00:58:18] [SPEAKER_06]: And this is one thing where I'm actually on board that they are

[00:58:23] [SPEAKER_06]: shooting in Europe because they, I don't know where they shot this.

[00:58:25] [SPEAKER_06]: It looks like it could be Turkey or I don't know, somewhere in the,

[00:58:31] [SPEAKER_06]: in the East, Middle East.

[00:58:33] [SPEAKER_06]: It's beautiful.

[00:58:34] [SPEAKER_06]: And it looks gorgeous.

[00:58:35] [SPEAKER_06]: And yeah, we have got some sort of mountainy slightly deserty ish

[00:58:39] [SPEAKER_06]: areas in New Zealand, but nothing like that.

[00:58:41] [SPEAKER_06]: So I think it looks really cool.

[00:58:43] [SPEAKER_06]: And you know, it's just refreshing and different being in danger of

[00:58:46] [SPEAKER_06]: dying of heat and lack of water is new to us and the middle earth,

[00:58:50] [SPEAKER_06]: the Lord of the Rings.

[00:58:51] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.

[00:58:52] [SPEAKER_00]: More like the snow and, and blizzard.

[00:58:55] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, exactly.

[00:58:56] [SPEAKER_06]: And, and so off, off they go and they're, they're over there in the East and

[00:59:04] [SPEAKER_06]: yeah, tramping through the, through the desert, getting thirsty, passing out.

[00:59:10] [SPEAKER_06]: They find this well.

[00:59:11] [SPEAKER_06]: And then they're being chased down by, by these, these minions of

[00:59:16] [SPEAKER_06]: this, this new wizard that we see.

[00:59:18] [SPEAKER_06]: So we see this wizard and I was quite excited about this.

[00:59:21] [SPEAKER_06]: We saw a tiny flash of him in the stranger's dream last episode.

[00:59:27] [SPEAKER_06]: Very, very quickly, but now we actually see him in a bit more depth and

[00:59:32] [SPEAKER_06]: he was interesting to me.

[00:59:33] [SPEAKER_06]: I liked him a lot.

[00:59:35] [SPEAKER_06]: He seems really commanding.

[00:59:36] [SPEAKER_06]: He's got these acolytes and appears to have some pretty strong magic.

[00:59:41] [SPEAKER_06]: He's looking for the Isda.

[00:59:43] [SPEAKER_06]: So we know that he sent these, these Nazgals, these acolytes to go

[00:59:46] [SPEAKER_06]: and find the stranger and they thought he was Sauron.

[00:59:51] [SPEAKER_06]: So part of me was like, did he send them because he wants Sauron, because

[00:59:56] [SPEAKER_06]: he wanted, wants to be friends with them or because he wants the Isda

[01:00:00] [SPEAKER_06]: because he knows that Isda will also fight Sauron.

[01:00:03] [SPEAKER_06]: So is he Sauron's enemy?

[01:00:04] [SPEAKER_06]: It's still not very clear, but the only thing that is a little bit

[01:00:07] [SPEAKER_06]: clear is that he didn't appear to be bothered that his minion was

[01:00:10] [SPEAKER_06]: happy to kill the halflings.

[01:00:12] [SPEAKER_06]: So that makes him seem more bad than good.

[01:00:16] [SPEAKER_06]: So he's pretty mysterious at this point and I'll have a bit more

[01:00:19] [SPEAKER_06]: say on him in the gladrials mirror spoiler section.

[01:00:23] [SPEAKER_06]: I really liked the strange, I loved all the, all the, the on the road

[01:00:29] [SPEAKER_06]: bits with the stranger and Poppy and Nore.

[01:00:32] [SPEAKER_06]: I was a bit confused where they got their tents from.

[01:00:34] [SPEAKER_06]: They don't seem like they're carrying much and suddenly they've

[01:00:36] [SPEAKER_06]: got these tents that they just find sticks and then put their little

[01:00:39] [SPEAKER_06]: kind of half foot blankets over them.

[01:00:42] [SPEAKER_06]: I wasn't sure of that, but I loved all their little interactions.

[01:00:46] [SPEAKER_06]: And I loved it when he's dreaming of the staff.

[01:00:50] [SPEAKER_06]: They, I found it fascinating that they called this, I had to, I had to

[01:00:55] [SPEAKER_06]: watch it with subtitles to really pick this up, but they called the

[01:00:58] [SPEAKER_06]: staff that he dreamed of a gand and a gand is an old Norse word for

[01:01:03] [SPEAKER_06]: wand or staff.

[01:01:04] [SPEAKER_06]: And I thought the one in his dream was sort of shimmering in and out of

[01:01:08] [SPEAKER_06]: focus.

[01:01:09] [SPEAKER_06]: And I liked how it changed from kind of a traditional shepherd's

[01:01:12] [SPEAKER_06]: hook kind of style to looking gnarled and twisted a little bit

[01:01:16] [SPEAKER_06]: like Gandalf staff.

[01:01:18] [SPEAKER_06]: And interesting that they use the word gand because yeah, gand is

[01:01:25] [SPEAKER_06]: Gandalf.

[01:01:25] [SPEAKER_06]: Gandalf.

[01:01:26] [SPEAKER_06]: Yep.

[01:01:26] [SPEAKER_06]: And the name Gandalf means basically elf with a staff pretty much.

[01:01:33] [SPEAKER_06]: So yeah, interesting.

[01:01:36] [SPEAKER_06]: What did you think of for that whole sequence?

[01:01:38] [SPEAKER_00]: I especially liked the conversation about names.

[01:01:42] [SPEAKER_00]: I thought it was very interesting that Norey was like, how about

[01:01:47] [SPEAKER_00]: we'll just name you.

[01:01:48] [SPEAKER_00]: And he's like, no, I already have a name.

[01:01:50] [SPEAKER_00]: I have to figure out what it is and I'll know when I hear it.

[01:01:54] [SPEAKER_00]: And I have always had this theory about cats that they name themselves

[01:01:59] [SPEAKER_00]: and that your cat knows what its name is.

[01:02:02] [SPEAKER_00]: And, and when you figure it out, they'll let you know that that's

[01:02:05] [SPEAKER_00]: the right one.

[01:02:06] [SPEAKER_00]: And that's always been how I've named cats.

[01:02:08] [SPEAKER_00]: I've had them in my life for a while and I've been like, is

[01:02:12] [SPEAKER_00]: this your name?

[01:02:12] [SPEAKER_00]: Is that your name?

[01:02:13] [SPEAKER_00]: And then when they react to one, I'm like, oh, okay, we found it.

[01:02:17] [SPEAKER_00]: That's your name.

[01:02:18] [SPEAKER_00]: And, and when Gandalf said that I was like, yes, like cats, like

[01:02:22] [SPEAKER_00]: wizards are like cats.

[01:02:24] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know if it's true for all beings, but it makes sense for me

[01:02:27] [SPEAKER_00]: that a name for a being as powerful as a Maya or an Istar is.

[01:02:35] [SPEAKER_00]: Isn't as simple as just some sounds that you like.

[01:02:38] [SPEAKER_00]: It has to be something powerful to name a being of that much.

[01:02:45] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.

[01:02:45] [SPEAKER_06]: And he, and he has, he has that, um, he's got the knowledge that he,

[01:02:53] [SPEAKER_06]: he knows is a lot more to him, to himself.

[01:02:56] [SPEAKER_06]: He he's got this sort of memory of his, of where he's come from, but

[01:03:00] [SPEAKER_06]: no memory, you know, he's got more like a feeling.

[01:03:02] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.

[01:03:03] [SPEAKER_00]: So like how amnesiacs can remember, you know, how to speak the language.

[01:03:08] [SPEAKER_00]: They know how to do math, right?

[01:03:10] [SPEAKER_00]: They know how to like function as a human, but they don't know their

[01:03:14] [SPEAKER_00]: name.

[01:03:14] [SPEAKER_00]: They don't know their personal history.

[01:03:16] [SPEAKER_00]: They don't know where they live.

[01:03:19] [SPEAKER_00]: It's, it's, it's almost like he has amnesia.

[01:03:24] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.

[01:03:24] [SPEAKER_06]: The whole, everything that's happening there in the East, it's, it makes

[01:03:29] [SPEAKER_06]: me wonder, you know, what, what role are they all going to play in

[01:03:34] [SPEAKER_06]: the bigger story?

[01:03:35] [SPEAKER_06]: Because we know that, you know, right up until the end of the third

[01:03:39] [SPEAKER_06]: page until pretty much until Frodo throws the ring in Mount Doom or the

[01:03:45] [SPEAKER_06]: ring gets thrown in Mount Doom, falls in.

[01:03:49] [SPEAKER_06]: Um, that Sauron pays no attention to the halfling races.

[01:03:52] [SPEAKER_06]: Um, and it doesn't figure in the story whatsoever.

[01:03:56] [SPEAKER_06]: So this whole story, this is very separate, this whole Eastern stuff,

[01:04:00] [SPEAKER_06]: everything that's happened so far with the halfwits, everything that's

[01:04:02] [SPEAKER_06]: happening with the stranger and with the wizard.

[01:04:06] [SPEAKER_06]: Um, it's a nice break and it, and it's good to switch to a different story

[01:04:10] [SPEAKER_06]: from when we're looking at the elves and the dwarves.

[01:04:12] [SPEAKER_06]: Um, but I am going to be interested to see where they take it and how

[01:04:16] [SPEAKER_06]: that connects with the main story, if it's going to connect at all, or

[01:04:19] [SPEAKER_06]: if it's just going to be backstory that lends itself to the other

[01:04:23] [SPEAKER_06]: stories that we know later on.

[01:04:25] [SPEAKER_06]: And I don't think it's going to be rushed.

[01:04:27] [SPEAKER_06]: I think that's, you know, that could be a five season thing for sure.

[01:04:30] [SPEAKER_00]: There's a, there's a lot going on in Rune already.

[01:04:33] [SPEAKER_00]: I thought that the, the whole thing with the fluttery dry, you know, white moths

[01:04:40] [SPEAKER_00]: and, and how they were a conduit for this magic where he brings that acolyte

[01:04:48] [SPEAKER_00]: back from the dead or whatever with like blood and the moths and everything.

[01:04:53] [SPEAKER_00]: That was so cool.

[01:04:55] [SPEAKER_00]: Like horror movie, fantasy movie, like dark magic.

[01:05:01] [SPEAKER_00]: Cool.

[01:05:02] [SPEAKER_00]: I loved it.

[01:05:03] [SPEAKER_00]: And I hope we get to see more of that stuff.

[01:05:04] [SPEAKER_00]: It was just really awesome, like high fantasy.

[01:05:07] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, it was great.

[01:05:08] [SPEAKER_06]: And I don't think, I mean, we've, and I can't think of any examples,

[01:05:11] [SPEAKER_06]: but I think we see examples in different stories about magic and

[01:05:17] [SPEAKER_06]: about, about bringing things back or transformations of, of sorts.

[01:05:23] [SPEAKER_06]: I don't think I've ever seen any that involve butterflies and moths

[01:05:27] [SPEAKER_06]: in that same type of way that it's all very fluttery and dusty.

[01:05:32] [SPEAKER_06]: And yeah, it seemed to require this sort of blood sacrifice.

[01:05:35] [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, I think she's going to be okay.

[01:05:37] [SPEAKER_06]: It's just a couple of scratches on her hands, but whenever they,

[01:05:40] [SPEAKER_06]: whenever they cut someone's hand and any kind of sacrificial thing,

[01:05:45] [SPEAKER_06]: I always think it's so inconvenient.

[01:05:47] [SPEAKER_06]: Don't cut straight across the palm.

[01:05:49] [SPEAKER_06]: That's so annoying.

[01:05:49] [SPEAKER_06]: Just like cut the side of their wrist or something.

[01:05:51] [SPEAKER_06]: It's going to be way easier.

[01:05:53] [SPEAKER_00]: They do it on supernatural.

[01:05:54] [SPEAKER_00]: Like every third episode, they cut across the palm.

[01:05:57] [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm like, there are nerves and tendons and like, what are you doing?

[01:06:01] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[01:06:02] [SPEAKER_00]: It's a delicate part of your body that is like, yeah, I, I don't

[01:06:06] [SPEAKER_00]: know why that's such a trope of pirates to the Caribbean.

[01:06:10] [SPEAKER_06]: They do it.

[01:06:11] [SPEAKER_06]: And, oh, we watched a great movie recently called damsel.

[01:06:16] [SPEAKER_06]: Have you seen it?

[01:06:17] [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, I haven't seen that yet with Bobby Brown.

[01:06:19] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, it's really cool.

[01:06:21] [SPEAKER_06]: It's got some other great actors in it as well.

[01:06:23] [SPEAKER_06]: And yeah, I love it.

[01:06:24] [SPEAKER_06]: It was, um, it was a really fun one to watch.

[01:06:26] [SPEAKER_00]: Um, but the moths kind of remind me of the way bats are used in vampire, some

[01:06:34] [SPEAKER_00]: vampire stories, you know, how they flutter around and sometimes coalesce to form

[01:06:38] [SPEAKER_00]: like Dracula or whoever.

[01:06:40] [SPEAKER_00]: Uh, but the, I thought the white moths are so much more

[01:06:45] [SPEAKER_00]: evocative than black bats.

[01:06:46] [SPEAKER_00]: It's just, and the, and the sound effect of it was just, oh my God,

[01:06:52] [SPEAKER_00]: it was so visceral.

[01:06:53] [SPEAKER_06]: It was great.

[01:06:54] [SPEAKER_06]: And, and also a little bit contradictory because we, we don't like these mystics.

[01:07:00] [SPEAKER_06]: You know, they, they sit on, set the caravans on fire at the half foot camp.

[01:07:06] [SPEAKER_06]: Um, but they're wearing white and they're represented by white moths.

[01:07:09] [SPEAKER_06]: And that's usually seen as a good color.

[01:07:10] [SPEAKER_06]: So it is quite interesting to see that contrast.

[01:07:14] [SPEAKER_06]: I liked it.

[01:07:15] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.

[01:07:16] [SPEAKER_06]: So this, this wizard, what, what's up with him?

[01:07:18] [SPEAKER_06]: What do you think about him without going into spoilers,

[01:07:21] [SPEAKER_06]: which we might cover later.

[01:07:23] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[01:07:24] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, he seems like a real jerk.

[01:07:27] [SPEAKER_00]: His, when he does bring that mystic back and, you know, he questions her

[01:07:31] [SPEAKER_00]: and then he's like, well, you, you couldn't find them or, you know,

[01:07:35] [SPEAKER_00]: you lost him or whatever.

[01:07:36] [SPEAKER_00]: And she looked like genuinely terrified of him.

[01:07:39] [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm like, this is someone who's already died and been brought back.

[01:07:42] [SPEAKER_00]: Right?

[01:07:42] [SPEAKER_00]: Like the stranger like disintegrated her last season, and then he brings

[01:07:46] [SPEAKER_00]: her back and she looked like she was terrified of this new wizard.

[01:07:50] [SPEAKER_00]: And she wasn't terrified of the stranger, even though he killed her.

[01:07:54] [SPEAKER_00]: So it makes me think he's even more powerful than what we saw.

[01:07:58] [SPEAKER_00]: He's also a little vain, right?

[01:08:00] [SPEAKER_00]: He's like, and this is based on my knowledge from like Lord of the

[01:08:05] [SPEAKER_00]: Rings and The Hobbit that, you know, Gandalf is this very sort of humble

[01:08:11] [SPEAKER_00]: wizard, he travels around in a cart and he wears like rough spun fabrics.

[01:08:16] [SPEAKER_00]: And he, you know, he's just, you know, he's just like a dude.

[01:08:19] [SPEAKER_00]: And Saruman lives in that giant tower and he has delusions of grandeur

[01:08:26] [SPEAKER_00]: and wants to challenge Sauron for dominance over Middle Earth.

[01:08:30] [SPEAKER_00]: And so whether or not this particular wizard turns out to be Saruman,

[01:08:34] [SPEAKER_00]: he's got a similar, like he sits on a throne.

[01:08:38] [SPEAKER_00]: He has acolytes.

[01:08:39] [SPEAKER_00]: This is a person who thinks very highly of himself.

[01:08:43] [SPEAKER_00]: He's incredibly confident about his wants and needs and has a lot of

[01:08:48] [SPEAKER_00]: power over the people around him.

[01:08:50] [SPEAKER_00]: All of his acolytes are women.

[01:08:52] [SPEAKER_00]: That's really interesting.

[01:08:55] [SPEAKER_00]: Is that like, because he thinks he can control women better?

[01:09:00] [SPEAKER_00]: Are women more attuned to magic than men?

[01:09:03] [SPEAKER_00]: Are men too likely to like rebel and so it kills them all?

[01:09:07] [SPEAKER_00]: Like Craster on Game of Thrones?

[01:09:10] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know, but it's interesting.

[01:09:16] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.

[01:09:17] [SPEAKER_06]: I can't wait to see what they do with him next.

[01:09:20] [SPEAKER_06]: As we talked about before, I love the actor, Ciaran Hines.

[01:09:24] [SPEAKER_06]: I think he's really cool.

[01:09:25] [SPEAKER_06]: I love him and everything that I've seen him in.

[01:09:28] [SPEAKER_06]: And yeah, I think he's great in this.

[01:09:33] [SPEAKER_06]: And yeah, I think we'll talk a little bit more about him, maybe a bit later.

[01:09:39] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.

[01:09:41] [SPEAKER_06]: Awesome.

[01:09:44] [SPEAKER_06]: I'm quite keen to, I've only got one or two other sort of main points.

[01:09:50] [SPEAKER_06]: Is there anything else that you want to go into?

[01:09:53] [SPEAKER_00]: I just have like sort of a question about actually maybe this would be

[01:09:59] [SPEAKER_00]: better for the spoilers section.

[01:10:02] [SPEAKER_06]: Leave it for there and then if people want to they can jump in.

[01:10:07] [SPEAKER_06]: My last sort of main-ish thing is Galadriel's vision.

[01:10:12] [SPEAKER_06]: So again, I'm going to speak a little bit about it now, a little bit about

[01:10:16] [SPEAKER_06]: it in Galadriel's mirror, but I really liked the scene where she's there in

[01:10:22] [SPEAKER_06]: the forest and she's grieving for her brother, Finrod, and again, those

[01:10:27] [SPEAKER_06]: beautiful trees where they're sort of like a tree memorial with the carving

[01:10:30] [SPEAKER_06]: of the person.

[01:10:32] [SPEAKER_06]: It's so gorgeous to look at.

[01:10:35] [SPEAKER_06]: You know, we saw Finrod in the prologue.

[01:10:37] [SPEAKER_06]: He's been killed in battle.

[01:10:39] [SPEAKER_06]: In the book he's actually killed by one of Sauron's werewolves and he's

[01:10:44] [SPEAKER_06]: specifically there going after Sauron.

[01:10:46] [SPEAKER_06]: It's not just this big sort of morgothi type battle.

[01:10:50] [SPEAKER_06]: And then as a reward for his noble actions, he was allowed to be

[01:10:55] [SPEAKER_06]: released early from the halls of Mandos.

[01:10:57] [SPEAKER_06]: So we've talked about this before where when the elves die or they're

[01:11:05] [SPEAKER_06]: in the hall of Mandos, they go to the halls of Mandos and then they are

[01:11:15] [SPEAKER_06]: there for an indeterminate amount of time.

[01:11:17] [SPEAKER_06]: And then they're sometimes re-embodied or reincarnated because of all of

[01:11:22] [SPEAKER_06]: these noble actions that he did, he actually was re-embodied in

[01:11:26] [SPEAKER_06]: Valinor after just a really short time in the waiting room.

[01:11:29] [SPEAKER_06]: And so apparently he still dwells beneath the trees in Valinor and

[01:11:34] [SPEAKER_06]: reunited with both his father and his lover as well.

[01:11:38] [SPEAKER_06]: So I do like in this version that we're seeing on screen that it's

[01:11:44] [SPEAKER_06]: a bit more clear cut, like the elves can just die.

[01:11:46] [SPEAKER_06]: Like it lends itself to the story that we understanding her grief

[01:11:50] [SPEAKER_06]: more and so on, which is kind of cool.

[01:11:54] [SPEAKER_06]: And then she also in this vision sees Cala Brimbor.

[01:11:58] [SPEAKER_06]: And I love this trope.

[01:12:00] [SPEAKER_06]: We see it a lot on TV and movies where you're not certain that it's

[01:12:05] [SPEAKER_06]: a dream or a vision.

[01:12:06] [SPEAKER_06]: And then something happens when usually when the dreamer or the

[01:12:09] [SPEAKER_06]: person having the vision sees someone else and they act in a different

[01:12:12] [SPEAKER_06]: way, that's not them.

[01:12:13] [SPEAKER_06]: You're like, Oh, what is that really there?

[01:12:15] [SPEAKER_06]: And she goes, nobody told me you'd arrived.

[01:12:16] [SPEAKER_06]: I was like, Oh, it's dream Cala Brimbor.

[01:12:19] [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, well you figured it out faster than I did because for me, it

[01:12:22] [SPEAKER_00]: wasn't until everything got dark really fast that I was like,

[01:12:25] [SPEAKER_00]: this might not be reality.

[01:12:27] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.

[01:12:27] [SPEAKER_06]: And the slithery vines come out of the ground kind of thing.

[01:12:30] [SPEAKER_06]: But as soon as she said, they didn't tell me you'd arrived and then

[01:12:33] [SPEAKER_06]: they sort of turned around and then he spoke kind of weirdly.

[01:12:35] [SPEAKER_06]: I was like, yeah, no, that's not good.

[01:12:38] [SPEAKER_06]: Um, but yeah, I will touch on more of that in the

[01:12:41] [SPEAKER_06]: gladiol's mirror section, but I just, it's quite a short point,

[01:12:44] [SPEAKER_06]: but I just really liked that scene.

[01:12:45] [SPEAKER_06]: I liked going back to that forest.

[01:12:46] [SPEAKER_06]: I think it's so beautifully designed and I loved her.

[01:12:51] [SPEAKER_06]: I loved her outfit.

[01:12:51] [SPEAKER_06]: I love her hair braided as well.

[01:12:53] [SPEAKER_06]: I think it looks really cool.

[01:12:55] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[01:12:55] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, she's quite beautiful and they've, we've talked about so many times

[01:13:01] [SPEAKER_00]: that the aesthetics of the show are just constantly breathtaking.

[01:13:07] [SPEAKER_00]: Like I get a little bored of saying it like, wow, the costumes are so beautiful.

[01:13:12] [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, the hair is so cool.

[01:13:14] [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, the settings are so beautiful.

[01:13:16] [SPEAKER_00]: Like I'm like, is it going to get boring to our listeners?

[01:13:19] [SPEAKER_00]: I hope not because I, I get amazed every episode.

[01:13:22] [SPEAKER_00]: There's always something that I'm like, Whoa.

[01:13:24] [SPEAKER_00]: Like this time it was the moths.

[01:13:27] [SPEAKER_00]: The moths really blew my mind, but a lot of times it's like,

[01:13:31] [SPEAKER_00]: it's a gladiol's gowns.

[01:13:34] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.

[01:13:34] [SPEAKER_06]: That's so beautifully done.

[01:13:36] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.

[01:13:37] [SPEAKER_06]: And that scene also made me wonder, you know, remember in our news last week,

[01:13:40] [SPEAKER_06]: we talked about, uh, the, the, the cast talked about showing up in London

[01:13:46] [SPEAKER_06]: and having all the same costumes and sets and stuff that were here in New

[01:13:50] [SPEAKER_06]: Zealand.

[01:13:51] [SPEAKER_06]: And, and I just looked at that scene with the, with the forest and I was like,

[01:13:56] [SPEAKER_06]: how much were they able to pack up and ship and how much had to be fabricated

[01:14:00] [SPEAKER_06]: again on site?

[01:14:01] [SPEAKER_06]: So it was like, you know, some pork crew member had to pack up every

[01:14:05] [SPEAKER_06]: single little carving and leaf and it all had to be shipped over.

[01:14:08] [SPEAKER_06]: I don't know.

[01:14:09] [SPEAKER_06]: It's logistics.

[01:14:10] [SPEAKER_06]: It's how much was, you know, it was probably based on money.

[01:14:12] [SPEAKER_06]: Was it cheaper to ship it or cheaper to just make it again?

[01:14:15] [SPEAKER_06]: Um, but it looks, it looks really similar.

[01:14:17] [SPEAKER_06]: That whole forest scene, I think it was really well done.

[01:14:19] [SPEAKER_00]: Beautiful.

[01:14:20] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[01:14:20] [SPEAKER_00]: And the, when the vines came in and, and his voice changed and, and that he got

[01:14:26] [SPEAKER_00]: like tied to the tree and then like whatever it was that stabbed through

[01:14:31] [SPEAKER_00]: his chest, whether it was like part of the tree or something.

[01:14:34] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.

[01:14:34] [SPEAKER_06]: I took it to be like vines or parts of the tree sticks of the

[01:14:38] [SPEAKER_06]: tree coming out and scaring him.

[01:14:39] [SPEAKER_00]: And then he turned into wood.

[01:14:40] [SPEAKER_00]: That was so cool and scary and like very stranger things again.

[01:14:46] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.

[01:14:47] [SPEAKER_06]: And, and I think that's in her vision.

[01:14:50] [SPEAKER_06]: That's, that's her ruminating that her actions going to cause her to lose all

[01:14:55] [SPEAKER_06]: the people that she loves and the people that are important, you know,

[01:14:57] [SPEAKER_06]: cause she's just been there sitting, looking at her brother's tree and, and

[01:15:01] [SPEAKER_06]: she, she worries that that's going to happen to other people.

[01:15:03] [SPEAKER_06]: So, um,

[01:15:06] [SPEAKER_00]: Are these not the seeds you planted?

[01:15:09] [SPEAKER_00]: And that's her saying that to herself.

[01:15:12] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, for sure.

[01:15:14] [SPEAKER_06]: And yeah, that's her little dream fantasy sequence that's going through

[01:15:18] [SPEAKER_06]: her brain while she's supposed to be in this council.

[01:15:20] [SPEAKER_06]: And then she, it's like, it really reminded me of when you're in a

[01:15:23] [SPEAKER_06]: meeting and you're like planning your dinner or something like that in

[01:15:26] [SPEAKER_06]: your head, um, and then someone asks you the question, Google it's like,

[01:15:31] [SPEAKER_06]: what is the commander of the Northern army think?

[01:15:33] [SPEAKER_06]: Think, and she's like, Oh, what, what I'm just thinking I'm in the room.

[01:15:38] [SPEAKER_00]: So many times in meetings where I'm like, I'm sorry, my, my

[01:15:41] [SPEAKER_00]: phone did something weird.

[01:15:42] [SPEAKER_00]: Could you repeat the question?

[01:15:44] [SPEAKER_06]: Uh, it's a lot, it's a lot easier when it's an online meeting, isn't it?

[01:15:47] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.

[01:15:47] [SPEAKER_06]: If you're in the room.

[01:15:48] [SPEAKER_00]: When you're there in person, you can't really rescue yourself.

[01:15:51] [SPEAKER_00]: You have to be like, I'm sorry.

[01:15:53] [SPEAKER_00]: I, can you just say that again?

[01:15:55] [SPEAKER_00]: You have to kind of admit it and she didn't hide it at all.

[01:16:00] [SPEAKER_00]: The King was like, so you were not fully here, right?

[01:16:03] [SPEAKER_00]: Like he called her on it.

[01:16:05] [SPEAKER_00]: Yep.

[01:16:05] [SPEAKER_00]: For sure.

[01:16:07] [SPEAKER_00]: But again, we had another woman in that war council, an elf woman who

[01:16:12] [SPEAKER_00]: talks very excited.

[01:16:17] [SPEAKER_00]: It doesn't take much to make me happy.

[01:16:20] Apparently.

[01:16:21] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, no, it's cool.

[01:16:23] [SPEAKER_06]: I thought, I think, I think they listened to you Penny for sure.

[01:16:29] [SPEAKER_06]: That's great.

[01:16:30] [SPEAKER_06]: All right.

[01:16:31] [SPEAKER_06]: I think that's most of my main points and notes.

[01:16:35] [SPEAKER_06]: Was there anything else that you had?

[01:16:37] [SPEAKER_00]: Um, only that apparently only Poppy can read maps.

[01:16:41] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, it looks like it.

[01:16:45] [SPEAKER_00]: Thank God she came on the trip.

[01:16:47] [SPEAKER_06]: And again, why didn't they take it with them to start with?

[01:16:50] [SPEAKER_06]: But yeah, we'll, we'll get past, we'll get past it.

[01:16:52] [SPEAKER_06]: I think, um, the only other thing I had was I loved the opening titles,

[01:16:58] [SPEAKER_06]: but we do have an article about that in news so we can talk about that then.

[01:17:02] [SPEAKER_06]: And I also liked the languages that Alvish was spoken quite a lot in this

[01:17:06] [SPEAKER_06]: episode and then also, um, Calabrian was spoke the Black Spokes.

[01:17:10] [SPEAKER_06]: And Galadriel's vision too.

[01:17:12] [SPEAKER_06]: And that was just like we saw, um, how Brand speaking in the last episode

[01:17:16] [SPEAKER_06]: where he spoke the Black Speech to the, um, to the wag.

[01:17:19] [SPEAKER_06]: So I thought that was quite cool.

[01:17:21] [SPEAKER_06]: I like how they're bringing all those different languages and it sounds really great.

[01:17:26] [SPEAKER_06]: And the only last one was sort of an overarching theme.

[01:17:29] [SPEAKER_06]: I thought of this episode was pride or stubbornness.

[01:17:32] [SPEAKER_06]: Um, we've seen this in everybody's storyline.

[01:17:35] [SPEAKER_06]: So Galadriel was too proud to reveal Sarah on it first, or maybe she was

[01:17:38] [SPEAKER_06]: ashamed.

[01:17:39] [SPEAKER_06]: Both of those, those feelings can be quite similar.

[01:17:43] [SPEAKER_06]: Um, Elrond is too proud to help when he's against the rings and you know,

[01:17:46] [SPEAKER_06]: we talked about Kirdan's advice as well about, about kind of overcoming that.

[01:17:51] [SPEAKER_06]: Um, Dyrod and his father were both too proud to apologize to each other.

[01:17:55] [SPEAKER_06]: And Sauron appeals to, to Calabrian was pride as well, or his vanity.

[01:18:00] [SPEAKER_06]: So I thought that was quite a cool thing that ran through all of the

[01:18:02] [SPEAKER_06]: stories that we saw in here.

[01:18:05] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.

[01:18:05] [SPEAKER_06]: So I think that's about it.

[01:18:07] [SPEAKER_06]: I think what we'll do is we'll take a little break and we'll be back.

[01:18:11] [SPEAKER_06]: We've got heaps of news and some feedback to come in, of course,

[01:18:14] [SPEAKER_06]: our spoiler section.

[01:18:15] [SPEAKER_06]: So stay with us.

[01:18:40] [SPEAKER_06]: And we're back and we have some really fantastic news this time.

[01:18:45] [SPEAKER_06]: Would you like to start us off Penny?

[01:18:47] [SPEAKER_06]: I would love to.

[01:18:48] [SPEAKER_00]: This is an article from MSN.com called why the rings of power

[01:18:53] [SPEAKER_00]: season two's opening titles are read.

[01:18:56] [SPEAKER_00]: Changes and meaning explained.

[01:18:58] [SPEAKER_00]: The title sequence in rings of power was created by Mark Beshore and Katrina

[01:19:03] [SPEAKER_00]: Crawford, who were tasked with creating breathtaking visuals to go with the new

[01:19:07] [SPEAKER_00]: original song by famed Lord of the Rings composer, Howard Shore.

[01:19:11] [SPEAKER_00]: The pair shared how they wanted to bring Tolkien's music of the Einor,

[01:19:17] [SPEAKER_00]: not so sure about that pronunciation, to the screen with sand shifting as it

[01:19:22] [SPEAKER_00]: would when moved by sound vibrations.

[01:19:24] [SPEAKER_00]: It's called cymatics.

[01:19:25] [SPEAKER_00]: While the images of season one subtly filled audiences in on the events of the

[01:19:31] [SPEAKER_00]: first age from the destruction of the two trees of Alinor to the creation of

[01:19:35] [SPEAKER_00]: the Silmarils, the reimagined sequence instead seems to foreshadow the events

[01:19:39] [SPEAKER_00]: to come.

[01:19:41] [SPEAKER_00]: There are 19 circles total, one of each of the titular rings of power.

[01:19:46] [SPEAKER_00]: A network of circles.

[01:19:48] [SPEAKER_00]: The first significant shape formed by the sand is a network of circles.

[01:19:51] [SPEAKER_00]: These have the clearest meaning.

[01:19:53] [SPEAKER_00]: There are 19 circles total, one of each of the titular rings of power.

[01:19:58] [SPEAKER_00]: There's a group of three circles connected to each other, but not to the

[01:20:02] [SPEAKER_00]: other 16 in the middle.

[01:20:03] [SPEAKER_00]: These are meant to represent the three elven rings.

[01:20:06] [SPEAKER_00]: Surrounding these are seven connected circles, the seven given to the dwarves.

[01:20:11] [SPEAKER_00]: Finally, arched over the top is a network of nine circles representing the

[01:20:15] [SPEAKER_00]: nine given to the kings of men.

[01:20:18] [SPEAKER_00]: A crown surrounded by stars.

[01:20:20] [SPEAKER_00]: After the undulating network of circles, the golden sand takes the shape of a

[01:20:24] [SPEAKER_00]: crown surrounded by stars.

[01:20:26] [SPEAKER_00]: This is the portion of the symbol for the dwarf kingdom of Khazad-dum.

[01:20:31] [SPEAKER_00]: Then an elegant arch.

[01:20:33] [SPEAKER_00]: The next shape taken by the golden sand is an elegant arch, which looks

[01:20:36] [SPEAKER_00]: exactly like the glowing door of Durin seen in Peter Jackson's Lord of

[01:20:41] [SPEAKER_00]: the Rings trilogy.

[01:20:42] [SPEAKER_00]: Since the glowing archway of the iconic Lord of the Rings door features

[01:20:46] [SPEAKER_00]: the Khazad-dum crown at the center, this shape is cohesive with the last.

[01:20:51] [SPEAKER_00]: A Balrog's horns.

[01:20:53] [SPEAKER_00]: After another transition, the golden sand reforms into a far more alarming

[01:20:57] [SPEAKER_00]: shape, the horns of a Balrog.

[01:21:00] [SPEAKER_00]: While the beast's head isn't visible, the horns seen in the rings of power

[01:21:03] [SPEAKER_00]: opening sequence are the exact shape of the Balrog seen in Rings of Power

[01:21:08] [SPEAKER_00]: season one, which follows the same design as Jackson's Lord of the Rings

[01:21:12] [SPEAKER_00]: movies.

[01:21:13] [SPEAKER_00]: A red iris.

[01:21:15] [SPEAKER_00]: When the gold sand takes its next shape, that tinge of red again begins to

[01:21:19] [SPEAKER_00]: take over.

[01:21:20] [SPEAKER_00]: The circle that forms looks a great deal like a red iris, most likely

[01:21:25] [SPEAKER_00]: symbolic of Sauron's flaming eye.

[01:21:29] [SPEAKER_00]: There's more in the article and we'll link it in the show notes that has

[01:21:31] [SPEAKER_00]: like spoilery speculation in it.

[01:21:34] [SPEAKER_00]: So we won't read that right now.

[01:21:36] [SPEAKER_06]: I really liked this and it's kind of a common thing now amongst the

[01:21:42] [SPEAKER_06]: big TV shows that we see now in the golden age of television is these kind

[01:21:46] [SPEAKER_06]: of sort of evolving opening titles.

[01:21:51] [SPEAKER_06]: And we saw that, you know, they evolved actually each episode with

[01:21:55] [SPEAKER_06]: the House of the Dragon.

[01:21:57] [SPEAKER_06]: And I really like how this is similar to that first theme, but we're

[01:22:00] [SPEAKER_06]: seeing a lot more specific detail, which is really cool.

[01:22:03] [SPEAKER_06]: I loved it.

[01:22:04] [SPEAKER_06]: I loved watching it and seeing it was red.

[01:22:05] [SPEAKER_06]: It was really different to that first kind of just golden sandy one

[01:22:09] [SPEAKER_06]: from season one.

[01:22:10] [SPEAKER_00]: It's quite beautiful.

[01:22:11] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.

[01:22:14] [SPEAKER_06]: All right.

[01:22:14] [SPEAKER_06]: We have another article here about Sauron's origins and from season

[01:22:21] [SPEAKER_06]: two premiere, and this is an interview with director Charlotte

[01:22:26] [SPEAKER_06]: Brandstrom where she explains his origins, why Calabrianbor is like

[01:22:31] [SPEAKER_06]: Oppenheimer and directing 200 Orcs.

[01:22:34] [SPEAKER_06]: She's got a big job.

[01:22:36] [SPEAKER_06]: Charlotte Brandstrom is a Swedish film and TV director who helped

[01:22:39] [SPEAKER_06]: stand out season one episodes Udun and The Eye returns for twice as

[01:22:44] [SPEAKER_06]: many outings this year, including episodes one, three, seven and eight

[01:22:49] [SPEAKER_06]: of season two.

[01:22:50] [SPEAKER_06]: She's directing half of them.

[01:22:51] [SPEAKER_06]: It's awesome.

[01:22:51] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.

[01:22:52] [SPEAKER_06]: And that's the premiere and the finale.

[01:22:54] [SPEAKER_06]: Definitely.

[01:22:55] [SPEAKER_06]: And the seven and eight, the last two.

[01:22:57] [SPEAKER_06]: So that's always the big buildup to the end.

[01:23:00] [SPEAKER_06]: Between working on the seasons of Lord of the Rings prequel,

[01:23:03] [SPEAKER_06]: Brandstrom also ventured into the violent worlds of John Wick with

[01:23:06] [SPEAKER_06]: the Peacock mini series, The Continental.

[01:23:08] [SPEAKER_06]: I think that's like a prequel of John Wick.

[01:23:11] [SPEAKER_06]: And she also visited feudal Japan via FXM's favourite Shogun and each series

[01:23:17] [SPEAKER_06]: showcased her talent for crafting action packed set pieces with her

[01:23:21] [SPEAKER_06]: Shogun episode Tomorrow is Tomorrow featuring a memorable ship battle sequence.

[01:23:26] [SPEAKER_06]: So she's not afraid of big battles and big scenes, is she?

[01:23:28] [SPEAKER_06]: I think it's fantastic.

[01:23:29] [SPEAKER_04]: No, not at all.

[01:23:30] [SPEAKER_06]: Yep.

[01:23:31] [SPEAKER_06]: In season one, Brandstrom helped create the infamous Mount Doom of

[01:23:34] [SPEAKER_06]: and the fiery episode Udun, which nabbed a Creative Arts Emmy nomination

[01:23:38] [SPEAKER_06]: for its sound editing.

[01:23:40] [SPEAKER_06]: That episode was packed with orc battles, the volcanic eruption of Mount

[01:23:43] [SPEAKER_06]: Doom and its Ashfield aftermath.

[01:23:45] [SPEAKER_06]: Now she ramps up the middle earth madness with two episodes in the

[01:23:48] [SPEAKER_06]: three part premiere and the final two episodes of the season, which

[01:23:52] [SPEAKER_06]: include a massive multi-part battle.

[01:23:54] [SPEAKER_06]: They ask her, what did you learn from directing your two episodes last

[01:23:57] [SPEAKER_06]: season and how did they affect your approach to your four new episodes?

[01:24:01] [SPEAKER_06]: The episodes I did last season were like a premise of what I did this

[01:24:04] [SPEAKER_06]: season because it set up this darker tone and edgier storytelling.

[01:24:08] [SPEAKER_06]: And this one, we go right into it.

[01:24:10] [SPEAKER_06]: You go much more into the characters.

[01:24:11] [SPEAKER_06]: It gets stronger because it gets more dramatic and there's more conflict.

[01:24:15] [SPEAKER_06]: The scope is still there.

[01:24:16] [SPEAKER_06]: It's still cinematic and we've still worked on visuals, but we're

[01:24:18] [SPEAKER_06]: able to do less exposition.

[01:24:20] [SPEAKER_06]: It's less presentational.

[01:24:21] [SPEAKER_06]: We had to take that time in season one in order to set everything up.

[01:24:25] [SPEAKER_06]: There's so many different worlds and there's so much to set up.

[01:24:29] [SPEAKER_06]: We also did a lot of research, cinematically and visually to see

[01:24:32] [SPEAKER_06]: what kind of look we would give the second season.

[01:24:34] [SPEAKER_06]: We really wanted it to find a darker undertone this time.

[01:24:37] [SPEAKER_06]: I set it in Swedish once to Swedes and they translated it.

[01:24:40] [SPEAKER_06]: The whole world has translated it as being more dirty.

[01:24:43] [SPEAKER_06]: That was not quite the word that I meant, but I did mean that I wanted

[01:24:46] [SPEAKER_06]: to be more authentic, more edgy, more dangerous.

[01:24:49] [SPEAKER_06]: I also wanted to use as much as possible the elements in nature,

[01:24:52] [SPEAKER_06]: like the dust, wind, rain and mud.

[01:24:55] [SPEAKER_06]: I wanted everything to be very real.

[01:24:57] [SPEAKER_06]: So the films that we looked at when we were prepping were Saving

[01:24:59] [SPEAKER_06]: Private Ryan and The Northmen.

[01:25:01] [SPEAKER_06]: We love the battles in The Northmen and also the very long

[01:25:04] [SPEAKER_06]: one is.

[01:25:05] [SPEAKER_06]: So a one is like a one shot.

[01:25:07] [SPEAKER_06]: So you basically, the camera just stays on.

[01:25:09] [SPEAKER_06]: You don't do lots of different cuts.

[01:25:10] [SPEAKER_06]: It's just a whole lot of action in one shot.

[01:25:14] [SPEAKER_06]: In episode eight, I have a big action scene that I did in one

[01:25:17] [SPEAKER_06]: shot with one camera.

[01:25:18] [SPEAKER_06]: We rehearsed it so much.

[01:25:19] [SPEAKER_06]: We shot it very, very quickly and everybody was shocked.

[01:25:21] [SPEAKER_06]: It took two hours to do.

[01:25:23] [SPEAKER_06]: I finished at noon that day.

[01:25:24] [SPEAKER_06]: They had planned all day.

[01:25:25] [SPEAKER_06]: We did like five takes and it was done.

[01:25:28] [SPEAKER_06]: That's fantastic.

[01:25:29] [SPEAKER_06]: And I actually think that's great rehearsing and really great

[01:25:33] [SPEAKER_06]: planning in terms of how you're going to do the action,

[01:25:35] [SPEAKER_06]: especially since a lot of those scenes have a huge amount of

[01:25:37] [SPEAKER_06]: choreography.

[01:25:37] [SPEAKER_06]: So you've got to do a lot of practice with that too.

[01:25:39] [SPEAKER_06]: That's great.

[01:25:39] [SPEAKER_06]: I can't wait to see that.

[01:25:41] [SPEAKER_06]: Got to wait till episode eight for that one.

[01:25:43] [SPEAKER_06]: We're keeping our eyes out for it.

[01:25:46] [SPEAKER_06]: They ask how much time passes between the opening scene

[01:25:48] [SPEAKER_06]: with Sauron's original form and when we later see him

[01:25:50] [SPEAKER_06]: disguised as Hellbrand meeting Galadriel in season one.

[01:25:54] [SPEAKER_06]: And she answers in the moment he meets Galadriel and the

[01:25:57] [SPEAKER_06]: moment when he comes back and he's reborn, that's

[01:25:59] [SPEAKER_06]: thousands of years.

[01:26:00] [SPEAKER_06]: First is the first Sauron.

[01:26:01] [SPEAKER_06]: That's the very first scene thousands of years before.

[01:26:04] [SPEAKER_06]: He takes this new shape into this blob and this creature.

[01:26:06] [SPEAKER_06]: That's thousands of years before.

[01:26:08] [SPEAKER_06]: And then when he becomes Hellbrand and meets Galadriel,

[01:26:10] [SPEAKER_06]: when he comes back, it's like six months later after he has

[01:26:13] [SPEAKER_06]: clothes on and he meets the old man on the road.

[01:26:16] [SPEAKER_06]: They ask I interpreted that scene as him plotting and waiting

[01:26:19] [SPEAKER_06]: for the right moment to strike.

[01:26:21] [SPEAKER_06]: But was there a part of Sauron that may have been good?

[01:26:24] [SPEAKER_06]: No, we wanted it to be a moment when he was at a

[01:26:26] [SPEAKER_06]: crossroads.

[01:26:26] [SPEAKER_06]: He was trying to make a choice.

[01:26:27] [SPEAKER_06]: He probably had always had this inside him, but we had a

[01:26:30] [SPEAKER_06]: little discussion with the showrunners about who he was at

[01:26:32] [SPEAKER_06]: the very beginning.

[01:26:33] [SPEAKER_06]: He still says I want to heal Middle-earth.

[01:26:35] [SPEAKER_06]: So he thinks he wants to do good.

[01:26:37] [SPEAKER_06]: He's not there to destroy it.

[01:26:38] [SPEAKER_06]: Even Adar wants to find a home for his children.

[01:26:40] [SPEAKER_06]: He wants a home, they're refugees in a way.

[01:26:43] [SPEAKER_06]: Sauron wants to help everybody, but he wants to

[01:26:45] [SPEAKER_06]: do that with the ultimate power and the ring.

[01:26:47] [SPEAKER_06]: He's getting into everybody's head and manipulating

[01:26:49] [SPEAKER_06]: everybody.

[01:26:50] [SPEAKER_06]: This season is really about how Sauron is going to

[01:26:53] [SPEAKER_06]: accomplish what he's going to do.

[01:26:55] [SPEAKER_06]: He's starting off with nothing.

[01:26:56] [SPEAKER_06]: He's by himself, no army.

[01:26:58] [SPEAKER_06]: He's all alone.

[01:26:59] [SPEAKER_06]: How is he going to basically conquer Middle-earth and also

[01:27:01] [SPEAKER_06]: have Kala Brimbaw make the ring for him?

[01:27:05] [SPEAKER_06]: I like that she's been specific there about the

[01:27:09] [SPEAKER_06]: timeframe.

[01:27:10] [SPEAKER_06]: That was kind of what we guessed.

[01:27:13] [SPEAKER_06]: It's not clear the whole sort of six months-ish bit.

[01:27:15] [SPEAKER_06]: That doesn't really matter, whatever he was doing in

[01:27:17] [SPEAKER_06]: that six months.

[01:27:17] [SPEAKER_06]: I guess it just took him that long to kind of cross

[01:27:19] [SPEAKER_06]: over Middle-earth.

[01:27:21] [SPEAKER_06]: But yeah, I like that she's confirmed that it's

[01:27:23] [SPEAKER_06]: thousands of years before.

[01:27:24] [SPEAKER_06]: That's pretty cool.

[01:27:26] [SPEAKER_00]: That's a long time to be a blob.

[01:27:28] [SPEAKER_06]: That sure is.

[01:27:31] [SPEAKER_06]: And final question they asked her was how difficult

[01:27:34] [SPEAKER_06]: was it to shoot all the orcs in the opening

[01:27:35] [SPEAKER_06]: sequence?

[01:27:36] [SPEAKER_06]: She says, I needed 200 orcs as extras.

[01:27:39] [SPEAKER_06]: This year we wanted to use more prosthetics and

[01:27:41] [SPEAKER_06]: special effects, but not visual effects on the

[01:27:42] [SPEAKER_06]: orcs.

[01:27:43] [SPEAKER_06]: We wanted them to be as real as possible.

[01:27:45] [SPEAKER_06]: Each prosthetic took hours to put on each extra.

[01:27:48] [SPEAKER_06]: You imagine in the morning when you have

[01:27:49] [SPEAKER_06]: everybody arriving, you don't have a thousand

[01:27:51] [SPEAKER_06]: make-up people.

[01:27:51] [SPEAKER_06]: So we were getting them sporadically on set.

[01:27:53] [SPEAKER_06]: I would start my day with five orcs.

[01:27:55] [SPEAKER_06]: Then I have 10, then 20, then 50.

[01:27:57] [SPEAKER_06]: Then 200 for about three hours.

[01:27:59] [SPEAKER_06]: And then I had to start sending them back again.

[01:28:01] [SPEAKER_06]: I knew I only had three hours to accomplish the

[01:28:03] [SPEAKER_06]: shots.

[01:28:03] [SPEAKER_06]: They had a lot of people.

[01:28:04] [SPEAKER_06]: We feel like we had a lot of time compared to

[01:28:06] [SPEAKER_06]: other episodes, but at the same time, we were

[01:28:08] [SPEAKER_06]: always pressed for time because of all the

[01:28:09] [SPEAKER_06]: logistics.

[01:28:10] [SPEAKER_06]: It's a great creative show and there's always a

[01:28:12] [SPEAKER_06]: lot of creative freedom, but it is very

[01:28:14] [SPEAKER_06]: technical.

[01:28:15] [SPEAKER_06]: So it needs to be extremely well planned out.

[01:28:16] [SPEAKER_06]: You can't just wing it.

[01:28:17] [SPEAKER_06]: That's impossible.

[01:28:20] [SPEAKER_00]: There's a lot more in that article, but anyway,

[01:28:24] [SPEAKER_00]: we'll link it again in the show notes.

[01:28:27] [SPEAKER_00]: And our final article is called Rings of Power

[01:28:30] [SPEAKER_00]: Creators Breakdown that Sauron cold open in

[01:28:33] [SPEAKER_00]: season two.

[01:28:34] [SPEAKER_00]: So just a little bit more information on top of

[01:28:36] [SPEAKER_00]: what Charlotte Branstrom offered us.

[01:28:40] [SPEAKER_00]: So the question is, so what made doing this

[01:28:43] [SPEAKER_00]: backstory appealing and how long was this

[01:28:46] [SPEAKER_00]: sequence?

[01:28:46] [SPEAKER_00]: Like how many years did it take Sauron to

[01:28:48] [SPEAKER_00]: regain his physical form?

[01:28:51] [SPEAKER_00]: JD Payne said, so this was originally a

[01:28:54] [SPEAKER_00]: sequence that we talked about doing in season

[01:28:56] [SPEAKER_00]: one.

[01:28:56] [SPEAKER_00]: We talked about it being the cold open to

[01:28:58] [SPEAKER_00]: episode six when Adar and Hal Brand meet.

[01:29:01] [SPEAKER_00]: We were going to give you this big backstory

[01:29:03] [SPEAKER_00]: and then we were like, this is going to end

[01:29:05] [SPEAKER_00]: up feeling jammed in.

[01:29:07] [SPEAKER_00]: We didn't feel like we had the space to do

[01:29:09] [SPEAKER_00]: it in the terms we envisioned it.

[01:29:11] [SPEAKER_00]: We got to talking and said, what about

[01:29:12] [SPEAKER_00]: moving it to the top of season two?

[01:29:15] [SPEAKER_00]: Because it felt like an integral part of the

[01:29:17] [SPEAKER_00]: story.

[01:29:17] [SPEAKER_00]: And as soon as we put it in season two, it

[01:29:20] [SPEAKER_00]: liberated us to tell it the way we felt like

[01:29:22] [SPEAKER_00]: it needed to be told.

[01:29:24] [SPEAKER_00]: And it helped us by showing this animus

[01:29:26] [SPEAKER_00]: between Sauron and Adar that would help

[01:29:28] [SPEAKER_00]: charge the season going forward.

[01:29:30] [SPEAKER_00]: Patrick McKay adds, also, it's your chance

[01:29:33] [SPEAKER_00]: to spend some time with Sauron.

[01:29:35] [SPEAKER_00]: In the story in his head, he's the

[01:29:38] [SPEAKER_00]: hero.

[01:29:38] [SPEAKER_00]: He thinks he knows better than everybody.

[01:29:40] [SPEAKER_00]: He's going to fix the world.

[01:29:42] [SPEAKER_00]: If everybody did the things the way I

[01:29:44] [SPEAKER_00]: think they should be done, then

[01:29:46] [SPEAKER_00]: everything will be great and we'd have

[01:29:47] [SPEAKER_00]: peace.

[01:29:48] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, how do you come to that point of

[01:29:50] [SPEAKER_00]: view?

[01:29:50] [SPEAKER_00]: How would he come to that level of

[01:29:52] [SPEAKER_00]: arrogance that he knows better than

[01:29:54] [SPEAKER_00]: anyone in the world?

[01:29:55] [SPEAKER_00]: And the answer is go on this journey with

[01:29:58] [SPEAKER_00]: him and see how he has been betrayed,

[01:30:00] [SPEAKER_00]: how he has suffered and how he sees

[01:30:02] [SPEAKER_00]: himself as a visionary.

[01:30:04] [SPEAKER_00]: And what is he grappling with?

[01:30:06] [SPEAKER_00]: We love the idea that by the end of

[01:30:08] [SPEAKER_00]: that 20 minutes, you might rewatch

[01:30:10] [SPEAKER_00]: season one in your head and have a

[01:30:12] [SPEAKER_00]: whole new lens on what he was going

[01:30:13] [SPEAKER_00]: through at each of those story turns.

[01:30:16] [SPEAKER_00]: It's true.

[01:30:16] [SPEAKER_00]: I do kind of want to go back and

[01:30:17] [SPEAKER_00]: watch season one again.

[01:30:20] [SPEAKER_00]: JD Payne says, you asked about

[01:30:22] [SPEAKER_00]: timeline.

[01:30:23] [SPEAKER_00]: Going back to the legendarium,

[01:30:25] [SPEAKER_00]: Tolkien's cumulative works, we

[01:30:26] [SPEAKER_00]: almost felt like there was this

[01:30:28] [SPEAKER_00]: delicious hole that Tolkien had left

[01:30:30] [SPEAKER_00]: or ellipses.

[01:30:31] [SPEAKER_00]: He talks about Sauron in the first

[01:30:33] [SPEAKER_00]: age as Morgoth's lieutenant and then

[01:30:35] [SPEAKER_00]: he sort of shows up hundreds of

[01:30:37] [SPEAKER_00]: years into the second age, kind of

[01:30:39] [SPEAKER_00]: out of nowhere.

[01:30:40] [SPEAKER_00]: And there's really no indication in

[01:30:41] [SPEAKER_00]: the legendarium exactly what he was

[01:30:43] [SPEAKER_00]: doing.

[01:30:44] [SPEAKER_00]: There was a lot left unspecified.

[01:30:46] [SPEAKER_00]: So we felt like it was an enormous

[01:30:48] [SPEAKER_00]: opportunity to take you on an

[01:30:50] [SPEAKER_00]: emotional journey with Sauron and

[01:30:51] [SPEAKER_00]: help you feel that for potentially

[01:30:53] [SPEAKER_00]: hundreds of years he had been this

[01:30:55] [SPEAKER_00]: creature.

[01:30:56] [SPEAKER_00]: There's this one dissolve where

[01:30:58] [SPEAKER_00]: you can see the stalagmites have

[01:30:59] [SPEAKER_00]: grown.

[01:31:00] [SPEAKER_00]: You're supposed to get the sense

[01:31:02] [SPEAKER_00]: that a geological amount of time

[01:31:04] [SPEAKER_00]: has passed, which Sauron spent

[01:31:06] [SPEAKER_00]: at the bottom of the world.

[01:31:08] [SPEAKER_00]: They ask, does Sauron feel

[01:31:10] [SPEAKER_00]: physical pain?

[01:31:12] [SPEAKER_00]: I was surprised he didn't cry out

[01:31:13] [SPEAKER_00]: when the crown thing happened,

[01:31:15] [SPEAKER_00]: but there are other times later

[01:31:16] [SPEAKER_00]: when he's being beaten by

[01:31:17] [SPEAKER_00]: Radar's men when he does.

[01:31:20] [SPEAKER_00]: I wasn't sure if he's just

[01:31:21] [SPEAKER_00]: pretending to feel pain when

[01:31:22] [SPEAKER_00]: playing in human form.

[01:31:24] [SPEAKER_00]: McKay said, so the rules operating

[01:31:26] [SPEAKER_00]: and governing his powers, his

[01:31:28] [SPEAKER_00]: abilities.

[01:31:29] [SPEAKER_00]: We know he can't be killed by any

[01:31:31] [SPEAKER_00]: normal means.

[01:31:31] [SPEAKER_00]: He can return.

[01:31:32] [SPEAKER_00]: Tolkien writes about that a lot,

[01:31:34] [SPEAKER_00]: but also beings of his class do

[01:31:36] [SPEAKER_00]: feel pain.

[01:31:37] [SPEAKER_00]: They are subject to the limitations

[01:31:38] [SPEAKER_00]: of a mortal body.

[01:31:40] [SPEAKER_00]: So he definitely feels pain.

[01:31:42] [SPEAKER_00]: He seems to express guilt and

[01:31:44] [SPEAKER_00]: regret, but whether those

[01:31:45] [SPEAKER_00]: are altruistic in nature or

[01:31:47] [SPEAKER_00]: whether those are all about his

[01:31:49] [SPEAKER_00]: own self image and his

[01:31:50] [SPEAKER_00]: own grandiosity, I think there's

[01:31:52] [SPEAKER_00]: a really delicious ambiguity

[01:31:53] [SPEAKER_00]: about it.

[01:31:56] [SPEAKER_00]: Got it.

[01:31:56] [SPEAKER_00]: So did Sauron cause the sea

[01:31:58] [SPEAKER_00]: monster to attack the ship in

[01:31:59] [SPEAKER_00]: order to meet up with

[01:32:00] [SPEAKER_00]: Galadriel or was that random?

[01:32:03] [SPEAKER_00]: McKay said this is a question

[01:32:04] [SPEAKER_00]: about the cosmology of Tolkien's

[01:32:06] [SPEAKER_00]: universe and the show.

[01:32:07] [SPEAKER_00]: I think one could make a very

[01:32:09] [SPEAKER_00]: strong case that the gods

[01:32:10] [SPEAKER_00]: caused the sea monster to

[01:32:12] [SPEAKER_00]: attack for him, but

[01:32:13] [SPEAKER_00]: we're not privy to the

[01:32:14] [SPEAKER_00]: intentions of the gods.

[01:32:15] [SPEAKER_00]: We only see what happens in

[01:32:17] [SPEAKER_00]: the show.

[01:32:17] [SPEAKER_00]: Gosh, maybe that's what's going

[01:32:19] [SPEAKER_00]: on.

[01:32:20] [SPEAKER_00]: Payne said we talk a lot

[01:32:22] [SPEAKER_00]: in the writer's room about

[01:32:23] [SPEAKER_00]: whether Sauron is a puppet

[01:32:24] [SPEAKER_00]: master or if he's an

[01:32:26] [SPEAKER_00]: opportunist.

[01:32:27] [SPEAKER_00]: We're constantly balancing those

[01:32:29] [SPEAKER_00]: two and finding out where

[01:32:30] [SPEAKER_00]: something just broke his way

[01:32:31] [SPEAKER_00]: and he took advantage of it

[01:32:33] [SPEAKER_00]: and where he was 17 steps

[01:32:34] [SPEAKER_00]: ahead of everyone setting up

[01:32:36] [SPEAKER_00]: dominoes beforehand.

[01:32:37] [SPEAKER_00]: We'd like to leave some of

[01:32:38] [SPEAKER_00]: those things to the audience

[01:32:40] [SPEAKER_00]: to be able to have fun

[01:32:41] [SPEAKER_00]: talking about and not give

[01:32:43] [SPEAKER_00]: our own authorial opinions

[01:32:44] [SPEAKER_00]: about exactly how Sauron did

[01:32:46] [SPEAKER_00]: it.

[01:32:48] [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you.

[01:32:48] [SPEAKER_00]: Otherwise we couldn't have a

[01:32:49] [SPEAKER_00]: podcast.

[01:32:51] [SPEAKER_06]: Exactly.

[01:32:51] [SPEAKER_06]: I actually love that they

[01:32:53] [SPEAKER_06]: leave that a little bit

[01:32:53] [SPEAKER_06]: ambiguous and going back to

[01:32:55] [SPEAKER_06]: that scene with the old man

[01:32:56] [SPEAKER_06]: when he's going towards

[01:32:57] [SPEAKER_06]: the kind of ruin of Mordor

[01:32:59] [SPEAKER_06]: and then he changes his mind

[01:33:01] [SPEAKER_06]: and he ends up going with

[01:33:03] [SPEAKER_06]: the stragglers and

[01:33:05] [SPEAKER_06]: sitting out across the sea.

[01:33:06] [SPEAKER_06]: It's really not clear

[01:33:07] [SPEAKER_06]: whether he has decided,

[01:33:09] [SPEAKER_06]: yeah, I'm going to make a

[01:33:10] [SPEAKER_06]: new life for myself and

[01:33:12] [SPEAKER_06]: turn towards the light like

[01:33:13] [SPEAKER_06]: this guy tells me to

[01:33:15] [SPEAKER_06]: or whether he is this 17

[01:33:18] [SPEAKER_06]: steps ahead and going,

[01:33:19] [SPEAKER_06]: this could be helpful to

[01:33:20] [SPEAKER_06]: me later on.

[01:33:21] [SPEAKER_06]: Let's see where this takes

[01:33:22] [SPEAKER_06]: me.

[01:33:22] [SPEAKER_06]: You know, so I like that

[01:33:23] [SPEAKER_06]: they're leaving the ambiguous

[01:33:24] [SPEAKER_06]: and we can make our own

[01:33:25] [SPEAKER_06]: decisions and argue about

[01:33:26] [SPEAKER_06]: it for hours.

[01:33:27] [SPEAKER_06]: It's awesome.

[01:33:31] [SPEAKER_06]: We got some list of

[01:33:33] [SPEAKER_06]: feedback for episode one

[01:33:37] [SPEAKER_06]: and we have one here

[01:33:39] [SPEAKER_06]: from Erica Price.

[01:33:40] [SPEAKER_06]: Erica says,

[01:33:41] [SPEAKER_06]: I'm so glad we're back.

[01:33:42] [SPEAKER_06]: Starting with backstory here

[01:33:43] [SPEAKER_06]: makes me feel a little

[01:33:44] [SPEAKER_06]: discombobulated.

[01:33:45] [SPEAKER_06]: I wonder if the showrunners

[01:33:47] [SPEAKER_06]: looked at season one

[01:33:47] [SPEAKER_06]: feedback and realized they

[01:33:48] [SPEAKER_06]: were a little too cryptic

[01:33:49] [SPEAKER_06]: and had some explaining to

[01:33:51] [SPEAKER_06]: do, especially the scene

[01:33:52] [SPEAKER_06]: in Frodwaith with alternate

[01:33:53] [SPEAKER_06]: Sauron.

[01:33:54] [SPEAKER_06]: I would have found the

[01:33:55] [SPEAKER_06]: story more compelling in

[01:33:56] [SPEAKER_06]: season one episode one

[01:33:57] [SPEAKER_06]: than we as the audience

[01:33:59] [SPEAKER_06]: would have had inside

[01:33:59] [SPEAKER_06]: knowledge about how brand

[01:34:01] [SPEAKER_06]: I was hoping for more

[01:34:02] [SPEAKER_06]: dwarves.

[01:34:02] [SPEAKER_06]: The half foot stranger,

[01:34:04] [SPEAKER_06]: baby Gandalf scenes went

[01:34:05] [SPEAKER_06]: nowhere and demonstrated

[01:34:06] [SPEAKER_06]: why they should have had

[01:34:07] [SPEAKER_06]: Poppy accompanied them.

[01:34:09] [SPEAKER_06]: I do miss Joseph

[01:34:10] [SPEAKER_06]: Maui's Adar.

[01:34:11] [SPEAKER_06]: This new guy has empty

[01:34:12] [SPEAKER_06]: eyes.

[01:34:12] [SPEAKER_06]: I'm bored with him already.

[01:34:14] [SPEAKER_06]: Gagala needs to sing more.

[01:34:15] [SPEAKER_06]: I enjoyed his call out

[01:34:16] [SPEAKER_06]: to the elder.

[01:34:17] [SPEAKER_06]: The rings are indeed

[01:34:18] [SPEAKER_06]: beautiful and I was

[01:34:19] [SPEAKER_06]: giggling a little at the

[01:34:20] [SPEAKER_06]: shot of them holding their

[01:34:20] [SPEAKER_06]: hands out in admiration

[01:34:21] [SPEAKER_06]: because all I could hear

[01:34:22] [SPEAKER_06]: in my head was,

[01:34:23] [SPEAKER_06]: one of the twins activate.

[01:34:26] [SPEAKER_06]: Good episode despite my

[01:34:27] [SPEAKER_06]: nitpicks looking forward

[01:34:28] [SPEAKER_06]: to the season.

[01:34:29] [SPEAKER_06]: Thanks so much Erica.

[01:34:30] [SPEAKER_06]: And I think I can share

[01:34:32] [SPEAKER_06]: Erica as I'm planning

[01:34:33] [SPEAKER_06]: a trip to New Zealand

[01:34:35] [SPEAKER_06]: and I think next year or

[01:34:36] [SPEAKER_06]: the year after with

[01:34:37] [SPEAKER_06]: red carpet tours.

[01:34:38] [SPEAKER_06]: So I hope you have an

[01:34:38] [SPEAKER_06]: amazing time Erica.

[01:34:39] [SPEAKER_06]: That's going to be awesome.

[01:34:40] [SPEAKER_06]: Thank you so much for your

[01:34:41] [SPEAKER_06]: feedback.

[01:34:43] [SPEAKER_00]: We also heard from

[01:34:45] [SPEAKER_00]: Alma Contreras who said,

[01:34:46] [SPEAKER_00]: I didn't get to watch

[01:34:47] [SPEAKER_00]: the episode in time to

[01:34:48] [SPEAKER_00]: make my comment for the

[01:34:49] [SPEAKER_00]: cast.

[01:34:50] [SPEAKER_00]: That's fine and we are

[01:34:51] [SPEAKER_00]: happy to have your

[01:34:52] [SPEAKER_00]: comment this week.

[01:34:54] [SPEAKER_00]: I got to say this show

[01:34:55] [SPEAKER_00]: seems kind of complicated

[01:34:56] [SPEAKER_00]: for me to follow.

[01:34:57] [SPEAKER_00]: Thank goodness we got

[01:34:58] [SPEAKER_00]: this podcast to help me

[01:34:59] [SPEAKER_00]: out.

[01:35:00] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm having trouble with

[01:35:01] [SPEAKER_00]: characters names.

[01:35:01] [SPEAKER_00]: Hopefully by mid season

[01:35:02] [SPEAKER_00]: I will have straightened

[01:35:03] [SPEAKER_00]: it all out.

[01:35:04] [SPEAKER_00]: And she has little

[01:35:05] [SPEAKER_00]: fingers crossed emoji

[01:35:08] [SPEAKER_00]: because they are adding

[01:35:09] [SPEAKER_00]: more characters.

[01:35:10] [SPEAKER_00]: OK, I have a question

[01:35:11] [SPEAKER_00]: about Adar.

[01:35:12] [SPEAKER_00]: Did they change the actor

[01:35:13] [SPEAKER_00]: playing him?

[01:35:14] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, they did.

[01:35:15] [SPEAKER_00]: And didn't Sauron stab

[01:35:17] [SPEAKER_00]: or kill him at the end

[01:35:18] [SPEAKER_00]: of season one?

[01:35:19] [SPEAKER_00]: And how crazy was his

[01:35:21] [SPEAKER_00]: blood and wiry forms

[01:35:22] [SPEAKER_00]: squirming about sucking

[01:35:23] [SPEAKER_00]: up living things until

[01:35:24] [SPEAKER_00]: he got a human.

[01:35:25] [SPEAKER_00]: Gross but kind of cool

[01:35:27] [SPEAKER_00]: at the same time.

[01:35:28] [SPEAKER_00]: LOL.

[01:35:29] [SPEAKER_00]: I really can't wait for

[01:35:30] [SPEAKER_00]: you ladies to shed lots

[01:35:31] [SPEAKER_00]: of light on this first

[01:35:32] [SPEAKER_00]: episode.

[01:35:33] [SPEAKER_00]: Adar was played by

[01:35:35] [SPEAKER_00]: Joseph Mulway who we

[01:35:36] [SPEAKER_00]: all know from Game of

[01:35:37] [SPEAKER_00]: Thrones first season

[01:35:38] [SPEAKER_00]: in the first season and

[01:35:39] [SPEAKER_00]: he's now played by

[01:35:40] [SPEAKER_00]: Sam Hazel Dean,

[01:35:42] [SPEAKER_00]: who was on The Sandman

[01:35:44] [SPEAKER_00]: and Peaky Blinders

[01:35:45] [SPEAKER_00]: for season two.

[01:35:47] [SPEAKER_00]: Joseph Mulway left to

[01:35:48] [SPEAKER_00]: pursue other acting roles.

[01:35:50] [SPEAKER_00]: There was some timing

[01:35:51] [SPEAKER_00]: conflict or something.

[01:35:53] [SPEAKER_06]: Thanks, Alma,

[01:35:54] [SPEAKER_06]: and thanks, Erika as well.

[01:35:55] [SPEAKER_06]: It's interesting you both

[01:35:57] [SPEAKER_06]: both mentioned Adar.

[01:35:59] [SPEAKER_06]: And yeah,

[01:36:00] [SPEAKER_06]: I'm hoping that the

[01:36:02] [SPEAKER_06]: new actor grows on me.

[01:36:03] [SPEAKER_06]: I think we mentioned

[01:36:03] [SPEAKER_06]: last week as well.

[01:36:05] [SPEAKER_06]: I do like him,

[01:36:06] [SPEAKER_06]: but I do think that

[01:36:07] [SPEAKER_06]: he doesn't have that.

[01:36:08] [SPEAKER_06]: I understand what you're

[01:36:09] [SPEAKER_06]: saying Erika about

[01:36:11] [SPEAKER_06]: the empty eyes.

[01:36:12] [SPEAKER_06]: I don't think he has

[01:36:13] [SPEAKER_06]: the same sadness

[01:36:14] [SPEAKER_06]: or grief to him

[01:36:18] [SPEAKER_06]: that Joseph Morley

[01:36:19] [SPEAKER_06]: had to him.

[01:36:21] [SPEAKER_06]: So I'm hoping to

[01:36:22] [SPEAKER_06]: see that develop

[01:36:22] [SPEAKER_06]: and we'll see how that goes.

[01:36:25] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, and your question

[01:36:26] [SPEAKER_06]: Alma about

[01:36:28] [SPEAKER_06]: didn't Sauron stab him

[01:36:30] [SPEAKER_06]: when they were chasing

[01:36:31] [SPEAKER_06]: through the forest

[01:36:32] [SPEAKER_06]: and he was saying

[01:36:33] [SPEAKER_06]: do you know me?

[01:36:34] [SPEAKER_06]: And then they had their

[01:36:34] [SPEAKER_06]: little altercation there.

[01:36:36] [SPEAKER_06]: It was after that

[01:36:37] [SPEAKER_06]: that Adar was then

[01:36:38] [SPEAKER_06]: taken back to the village

[01:36:40] [SPEAKER_06]: and tied up in that barn

[01:36:42] [SPEAKER_06]: and Galadriel had her

[01:36:43] [SPEAKER_06]: conversation with him.

[01:36:44] [SPEAKER_06]: And then after you see

[01:36:45] [SPEAKER_06]: the Mount Doom erupt

[01:36:47] [SPEAKER_06]: and all of the chaos there,

[01:36:48] [SPEAKER_06]: there was a shot of the barn

[01:36:50] [SPEAKER_06]: with Adar not chained up.

[01:36:53] [SPEAKER_06]: So he obviously escaped

[01:36:54] [SPEAKER_06]: at the end of that episode.

[01:36:56] [SPEAKER_06]: And then this is why

[01:36:57] [SPEAKER_06]: we still see him now

[01:36:58] [SPEAKER_06]: in Mordor with all of his orcs.

[01:37:01] [SPEAKER_06]: Hopefully that helps.

[01:37:05] [SPEAKER_06]: Thanks so much for your feedback.

[01:37:07] [SPEAKER_06]: And yeah, please feel free

[01:37:08] [SPEAKER_06]: to send in any feedback

[01:37:10] [SPEAKER_06]: about any of the episodes.

[01:37:11] [SPEAKER_06]: It doesn't matter if you missed

[01:37:12] [SPEAKER_06]: our recording for each one.

[01:37:14] [SPEAKER_06]: We're really happy to play

[01:37:15] [SPEAKER_06]: it on subsequent podcasts.

[01:37:17] [SPEAKER_06]: So please go ahead and leave that in.

[01:37:18] [SPEAKER_06]: You can find all of our contact

[01:37:20] [SPEAKER_06]: information at podcastica.com.

[01:37:23] [SPEAKER_06]: We love your voicemails as well,

[01:37:24] [SPEAKER_06]: so send those on through.

[01:37:26] [SPEAKER_06]: And if you're enjoying

[01:37:27] [SPEAKER_06]: what we do here,

[01:37:28] [SPEAKER_06]: please write and review

[01:37:29] [SPEAKER_06]: on whatever podcast app

[01:37:31] [SPEAKER_06]: you're listening on

[01:37:31] [SPEAKER_06]: that helps other people find us.

[01:37:33] [SPEAKER_06]: And we really appreciate your comments.

[01:37:35] [SPEAKER_06]: I thank you so much for that.

[01:37:37] [SPEAKER_00]: While you're over at podcastica.com

[01:37:39] [SPEAKER_00]: sending us a message,

[01:37:41] [SPEAKER_00]: you should look at some of the other

[01:37:44] [SPEAKER_00]: podcastica shows.

[01:37:46] [SPEAKER_00]: I mentioned I cover

[01:37:47] [SPEAKER_00]: Buffy the Vampire Slayer

[01:37:49] [SPEAKER_00]: on a show called Still Slaying.

[01:37:52] [SPEAKER_00]: And we'd love to have some of the

[01:37:55] [SPEAKER_00]: Rings of Power fans

[01:37:56] [SPEAKER_00]: join us over there on Still Slaying.

[01:37:57] [SPEAKER_00]: We have a really good time.

[01:37:58] [SPEAKER_00]: Anwen has guested with us

[01:37:59] [SPEAKER_00]: and hopefully will again in the future.

[01:38:01] [SPEAKER_06]: Yes, please.

[01:38:03] [SPEAKER_06]: And heaps and heaps

[01:38:04] [SPEAKER_06]: of other things

[01:38:05] [SPEAKER_06]: to look at there as well.

[01:38:06] [SPEAKER_06]: Probably the best way to do it

[01:38:07] [SPEAKER_06]: is to just go to podcastica.com

[01:38:09] [SPEAKER_06]: and have a scroll through.

[01:38:10] [SPEAKER_06]: You'll see all the different

[01:38:11] [SPEAKER_06]: kinds of shows that we cover.

[01:38:13] [SPEAKER_06]: Everything from really dark shows

[01:38:14] [SPEAKER_06]: that are often covered by

[01:38:16] [SPEAKER_06]: Stranger, Strange Indeed

[01:38:17] [SPEAKER_06]: all the way through to

[01:38:19] [SPEAKER_06]: their palette cleanser

[01:38:20] [SPEAKER_06]: that they sometimes do

[01:38:21] [SPEAKER_06]: to cover the British Bake Off,

[01:38:24] [SPEAKER_06]: which is awesome.

[01:38:24] [SPEAKER_06]: A really nice contrast there

[01:38:27] [SPEAKER_06]: as well.

[01:38:29] [SPEAKER_06]: So that's great.

[01:38:30] [SPEAKER_06]: And so if you don't mind

[01:38:33] [SPEAKER_06]: possible spoilers for future seasons,

[01:38:35] [SPEAKER_06]: please join us now

[01:38:36] [SPEAKER_06]: for Galadriel's Mirror.

[01:38:38] [SPEAKER_06]: We're going to discuss

[01:38:39] [SPEAKER_06]: how the show compares with the book

[01:38:40] [SPEAKER_06]: and some of the things that we think

[01:38:42] [SPEAKER_06]: might happen next

[01:38:44] [SPEAKER_06]: based on the source material.

[01:38:47] [SPEAKER_06]: And just a disclaimer,

[01:38:49] [SPEAKER_06]: there's going to be one

[01:38:51] [SPEAKER_06]: really heavy spoiler in here.

[01:38:53] [SPEAKER_06]: So about what happens to one character.

[01:38:55] [SPEAKER_06]: So if you're not wanting to know

[01:38:57] [SPEAKER_06]: what might happen, then please

[01:38:58] [SPEAKER_06]: just stop listening now

[01:39:00] [SPEAKER_06]: and tune in next time.

[01:39:02] [SPEAKER_06]: But otherwise, please

[01:39:03] [SPEAKER_06]: feel free to join us now

[01:39:05] [SPEAKER_06]: and step into Galadriel's Mirror.

[01:39:08] [SPEAKER_04]: Will you look into the mirror?

[01:39:11] [SPEAKER_04]: What will I see?

[01:39:13] [SPEAKER_04]: Things that were.

[01:39:16] [SPEAKER_04]: Things that are.

[01:39:19] [SPEAKER_04]: And some things

[01:39:21] [SPEAKER_06]: that have not yet come to pass.

[01:39:25] [SPEAKER_06]: OK, I got a couple of things.

[01:39:27] [SPEAKER_06]: So the first one is

[01:39:29] [SPEAKER_06]: about the wizard.

[01:39:31] [SPEAKER_06]: So you mentioned before

[01:39:33] [SPEAKER_06]: potentially could he be Saruman?

[01:39:36] [SPEAKER_06]: And I wanted to just put

[01:39:37] [SPEAKER_06]: my feelings on it here

[01:39:41] [SPEAKER_06]: because I'm pretty sure

[01:39:43] [SPEAKER_06]: he is going to be Saruman.

[01:39:45] [SPEAKER_06]: And there's a couple of reasons for that.

[01:39:47] [SPEAKER_06]: One is that I think we're all

[01:39:49] [SPEAKER_06]: pretty much all but confirmed

[01:39:51] [SPEAKER_06]: that the stranger is Gandalf at this point.

[01:39:53] [SPEAKER_06]: I think they're just

[01:39:53] [SPEAKER_06]: dropping too many hints,

[01:39:54] [SPEAKER_06]: unless they're doing that thing

[01:39:55] [SPEAKER_06]: where they're like,

[01:39:56] [SPEAKER_06]: oh, we're going to make you

[01:39:57] [SPEAKER_06]: think it's Gandalf and it's really not.

[01:39:58] [SPEAKER_06]: But I just think they've dropped

[01:40:00] [SPEAKER_06]: so many hints that it is

[01:40:01] [SPEAKER_06]: that I'm convinced it is.

[01:40:03] [SPEAKER_06]: And from in my mind,

[01:40:04] [SPEAKER_06]: I think, OK, either

[01:40:06] [SPEAKER_06]: either both of them are blue wizards

[01:40:08] [SPEAKER_06]: This is just a cool side story

[01:40:09] [SPEAKER_06]: about what happened with them

[01:40:10] [SPEAKER_06]: because we don't really

[01:40:11] [SPEAKER_06]: get anything in the book.

[01:40:13] [SPEAKER_06]: Or if the stranger is Gandalf,

[01:40:15] [SPEAKER_06]: then this is definitely Saruman.

[01:40:18] [SPEAKER_06]: So one of the reasons

[01:40:19] [SPEAKER_06]: I think that is

[01:40:20] [SPEAKER_06]: we know about Saruman.

[01:40:22] [SPEAKER_06]: He often wandered into the East.

[01:40:25] [SPEAKER_06]: The blue wizards went

[01:40:26] [SPEAKER_06]: to the East as well.

[01:40:27] [SPEAKER_06]: They never came back.

[01:40:28] [SPEAKER_06]: But Saruman, he potentially

[01:40:29] [SPEAKER_06]: might have joined them

[01:40:30] [SPEAKER_06]: and then he returned back

[01:40:31] [SPEAKER_06]: to the main part of Middle Earth

[01:40:33] [SPEAKER_06]: and he occupied Isengard.

[01:40:35] [SPEAKER_06]: Saruman was

[01:40:36] [SPEAKER_06]: the eldest of the five wizards

[01:40:38] [SPEAKER_06]: that were sent there.

[01:40:40] [SPEAKER_06]: As we know before,

[01:40:41] [SPEAKER_06]: they are Maya who are sent

[01:40:43] [SPEAKER_06]: in the form of the wizards,

[01:40:45] [SPEAKER_06]: the Astari to Middle Earth.

[01:40:48] [SPEAKER_06]: He appeared as an old man

[01:40:49] [SPEAKER_06]: with a long face and high forehead

[01:40:51] [SPEAKER_06]: with a long white beard

[01:40:52] [SPEAKER_06]: edged with strands of black hair

[01:40:54] [SPEAKER_06]: about his face.

[01:40:55] [SPEAKER_06]: His eyes were deep and solemn

[01:40:57] [SPEAKER_06]: and he carried a heavy staff

[01:40:58] [SPEAKER_06]: that was black in color.

[01:40:59] [SPEAKER_06]: He chose a long white hand

[01:41:01] [SPEAKER_06]: as his symbol.

[01:41:02] [SPEAKER_06]: So this guy we're seeing on screen

[01:41:04] [SPEAKER_06]: has got he's wearing white.

[01:41:06] [SPEAKER_06]: He's got a black staff.

[01:41:08] [SPEAKER_06]: He's got the long face

[01:41:10] [SPEAKER_06]: and the high forehead.

[01:41:12] [SPEAKER_06]: He's got the very sticky out eyebrows,

[01:41:15] [SPEAKER_06]: just like Christopher Lee

[01:41:17] [SPEAKER_06]: in portraying Saruman

[01:41:19] [SPEAKER_06]: and the Lord of the Rings.

[01:41:21] [SPEAKER_06]: And he's also described initially

[01:41:24] [SPEAKER_06]: in the books as having raven hair.

[01:41:26] [SPEAKER_06]: So he's got black hair

[01:41:27] [SPEAKER_06]: and then he's got this kind of

[01:41:28] [SPEAKER_06]: like stripey black and white beard.

[01:41:31] [SPEAKER_06]: So I think it's him.

[01:41:34] [SPEAKER_06]: But the thing that is not so palatable

[01:41:38] [SPEAKER_06]: to me is that Saruman initially was good

[01:41:41] [SPEAKER_06]: and he turned evil quite a lot later

[01:41:44] [SPEAKER_06]: when he became under the influence of Sauron.

[01:41:47] [SPEAKER_06]: But this guy that we're seeing here

[01:41:50] [SPEAKER_06]: it's slightly ambiguous,

[01:41:51] [SPEAKER_06]: but again, like we said,

[01:41:52] [SPEAKER_06]: he's totally fine with his minions

[01:41:54] [SPEAKER_06]: trying to kill the halflings.

[01:41:55] [SPEAKER_06]: So he just doesn't really care.

[01:41:57] [SPEAKER_06]: To be honest.

[01:41:59] [SPEAKER_00]: Particularly good.

[01:42:00] [SPEAKER_06]: No, he doesn't.

[01:42:01] [SPEAKER_06]: And if we're fair about it

[01:42:03] [SPEAKER_06]: and we want to argue for ourselves,

[01:42:06] [SPEAKER_06]: he was never fond of Hobbits later anyway.

[01:42:08] [SPEAKER_06]: So like maybe he just doesn't really care

[01:42:10] [SPEAKER_06]: about them as a race.

[01:42:11] [SPEAKER_06]: He feels like they're beneath him or something.

[01:42:15] [SPEAKER_06]: But yeah, I think it's gonna be him

[01:42:17] [SPEAKER_06]: and I don't know what they're gonna do with that

[01:42:18] [SPEAKER_06]: and how they're gonna make it blend

[01:42:20] [SPEAKER_06]: with what Stranger slash Gandalf is doing.

[01:42:23] [SPEAKER_06]: And yeah, totally prepared to be surprised

[01:42:25] [SPEAKER_06]: in that they've thrown me off the scene

[01:42:26] [SPEAKER_06]: and it's gonna be two completely different characters.

[01:42:28] [SPEAKER_06]: I don't see a huge amount of point

[01:42:31] [SPEAKER_06]: in bringing in the blue wizards

[01:42:33] [SPEAKER_06]: and what they were doing.

[01:42:34] [SPEAKER_06]: They don't figure in the story much,

[01:42:36] [SPEAKER_06]: but it could just be extra depth.

[01:42:38] [SPEAKER_06]: The halflings don't really figure either.

[01:42:39] [SPEAKER_06]: So that's a whole big made up thing.

[01:42:41] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's hard to know.

[01:42:43] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, we'll see what happens.

[01:42:46] [SPEAKER_06]: And then the other major spoiler

[01:42:49] [SPEAKER_06]: that I just did want to talk about

[01:42:51] [SPEAKER_06]: for those who've read the books,

[01:42:52] [SPEAKER_06]: especially the Silmarillion

[01:42:54] [SPEAKER_06]: and the Unfinished Tales is Calabrian Boar.

[01:42:58] [SPEAKER_06]: So in Galadriel's vision,

[01:43:00] [SPEAKER_06]: he is skewered by the tree

[01:43:02] [SPEAKER_06]: and this is some really heavy foreshadowing.

[01:43:06] [SPEAKER_06]: So in the book,

[01:43:08] [SPEAKER_06]: he makes the rings with Anata

[01:43:11] [SPEAKER_06]: and then he realizes that Anata is bad

[01:43:18] [SPEAKER_06]: and he realizes that Sauron has made the one ring

[01:43:21] [SPEAKER_06]: and then he basically tries to protect the rings

[01:43:25] [SPEAKER_06]: and everybody else from Sauron.

[01:43:28] [SPEAKER_06]: But Sauron captures him when he invades Eregion

[01:43:33] [SPEAKER_06]: and Calabrian Boar gets tortured by Sauron.

[01:43:35] [SPEAKER_06]: He dies from his torment.

[01:43:37] [SPEAKER_06]: He gets shot through with arrows

[01:43:39] [SPEAKER_06]: and then he gets hung on a pole

[01:43:41] [SPEAKER_06]: and Sauron parades him as a banner

[01:43:43] [SPEAKER_06]: when he goes and attacks the rest of them.

[01:43:46] [SPEAKER_06]: That is some like Game of Thrones next level

[01:43:50] [SPEAKER_06]: grossness, right?

[01:43:51] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, that's dark.

[01:43:54] [SPEAKER_06]: So this scene of him being stuck to the tree

[01:43:57] [SPEAKER_06]: and being stuck through with these spikes,

[01:43:59] [SPEAKER_06]: I feel like is foreshadowing of the arrows.

[01:44:02] [SPEAKER_06]: I don't know whether they're gonna go so far

[01:44:05] [SPEAKER_06]: as to do the whole body on a pole

[01:44:06] [SPEAKER_06]: and have him paraded around.

[01:44:09] [SPEAKER_06]: That's pretty extreme

[01:44:11] [SPEAKER_06]: but they have said that this show

[01:44:13] [SPEAKER_06]: is gonna go quite a lot darker.

[01:44:14] [SPEAKER_06]: So let's see if that ends up happening

[01:44:16] [SPEAKER_06]: and I don't think it's this season.

[01:44:18] [SPEAKER_06]: I think it potentially could be into next season.

[01:44:21] [SPEAKER_06]: We'll see what happens.

[01:44:22] [SPEAKER_06]: But yeah, what do you think of that as foreshadowing?

[01:44:27] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm not shocked to hear that that's what happens

[01:44:30] [SPEAKER_00]: in the book having just seen this dark vision

[01:44:32] [SPEAKER_00]: but the parading around on a pole,

[01:44:35] [SPEAKER_00]: I will admit takes me by surprise.

[01:44:40] [SPEAKER_00]: I feel so bad for Celebrimbor.

[01:44:45] [SPEAKER_00]: He seems like a really nice guy

[01:44:48] [SPEAKER_00]: who just wants to like make things

[01:44:51] [SPEAKER_00]: kind of like he's just in his own city there

[01:44:55] [SPEAKER_00]: like teaching other people how to do Smith stuff.

[01:44:57] [SPEAKER_00]: He's a little bit of a nerd, right?

[01:44:59] [SPEAKER_00]: He's like check out this cool invisible ink I invented.

[01:45:03] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah and he seems to really like that relationship

[01:45:07] [SPEAKER_06]: with the other Alvin Smiths,

[01:45:08] [SPEAKER_06]: like he's teaching them but he's also sharing.

[01:45:10] [SPEAKER_06]: It's not just like I know the stuff

[01:45:11] [SPEAKER_06]: and I'm gonna tell you it's like he's sort of sharing

[01:45:13] [SPEAKER_06]: how awesome it is.

[01:45:14] [SPEAKER_06]: He's really into it and yeah, I feel the same

[01:45:17] [SPEAKER_06]: and as I said before,

[01:45:19] [SPEAKER_06]: I think they've done a really good job

[01:45:20] [SPEAKER_06]: at showing him how he could get sucked in by Anata

[01:45:25] [SPEAKER_06]: and what's gonna happen next.

[01:45:29] [SPEAKER_06]: I think it's just gonna slip down into much sadder

[01:45:32] [SPEAKER_06]: and darker places for Celebrimbor.

[01:45:34] [SPEAKER_06]: So we'll see how far they go,

[01:45:36] [SPEAKER_06]: I guess with the source material

[01:45:37] [SPEAKER_06]: in terms of what they do with him.

[01:45:40] [SPEAKER_00]: So when Galadriel after she has her vision

[01:45:44] [SPEAKER_00]: and when she goes to talk to Gil-galad

[01:45:46] [SPEAKER_00]: and she says, you know,

[01:45:47] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm afraid that Sauron is gonna go back to Eregion.

[01:45:51] [SPEAKER_00]: He said he doesn't want to just rule over a barren waste

[01:45:55] [SPEAKER_00]: but he wants to, you know, have conquest

[01:45:58] [SPEAKER_00]: or rule all of Middle Earth

[01:46:00] [SPEAKER_00]: and not just by conquest

[01:46:02] [SPEAKER_00]: but by bending the minds and wills of his own

[01:46:04] [SPEAKER_00]: and for that he needs rings

[01:46:05] [SPEAKER_00]: and therefore Celebrimbor.

[01:46:07] [SPEAKER_00]: And I was like, is it true that he needs Celebrimbor

[01:46:11] [SPEAKER_00]: because he has his own Smith knowledge.

[01:46:15] [SPEAKER_00]: What does, is Celebrimbor truly unique

[01:46:18] [SPEAKER_00]: in his skill and knowledge that even Sauron

[01:46:21] [SPEAKER_00]: who is, you know, a Maya also

[01:46:24] [SPEAKER_00]: can't replicate his Smithcraft?

[01:46:28] [SPEAKER_00]: I just thought that was really interesting.

[01:46:30] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, I think it's a show thing because you're right

[01:46:34] [SPEAKER_06]: Sauron was a Maya and he was actually apprenticed

[01:46:39] [SPEAKER_06]: I guess to Aule, who is the main smithing guru

[01:46:42] [SPEAKER_06]: the main valor who makes stuff.

[01:46:44] [SPEAKER_06]: So I think he's got the skill.

[01:46:46] [SPEAKER_06]: I think it's more that he needs someone more bound

[01:46:49] [SPEAKER_06]: to Middle Earth to create these things

[01:46:53] [SPEAKER_06]: to help him with it.

[01:46:54] [SPEAKER_06]: And in the book, it's actually

[01:46:59] [SPEAKER_06]: he spends a lot more time with the other Alvin Smiths

[01:47:03] [SPEAKER_06]: really before or alongside Celebrimbor.

[01:47:06] [SPEAKER_06]: So they actually in the book make a bunch

[01:47:08] [SPEAKER_06]: of practice rings before they even make the 19.

[01:47:12] [SPEAKER_06]: So they make all these different practice rings

[01:47:13] [SPEAKER_06]: to give it a try and then they're like, okay

[01:47:15] [SPEAKER_06]: I think we've got that.

[01:47:16] [SPEAKER_06]: And then they create the seven and the nine

[01:47:19] [SPEAKER_06]: and then it's after that that Celebrimbor makes the three

[01:47:23] [SPEAKER_06]: without him being aware of them without Sauron's knowledge.

[01:47:26] [SPEAKER_06]: So they're changing a little bit.

[01:47:28] [SPEAKER_06]: And I think again, it's shown necessary

[01:47:31] [SPEAKER_06]: because we need this central figure

[01:47:32] [SPEAKER_06]: to represent Sauron's manipulation of people and peoples.

[01:47:38] [SPEAKER_06]: So we're seeing that with being Celebrimbor

[01:47:41] [SPEAKER_06]: and that's how it represents on screen.

[01:47:43] [SPEAKER_06]: I think that works.

[01:47:44] [SPEAKER_06]: I think it's great.

[01:47:44] [SPEAKER_06]: We need a central character to focus on.

[01:47:46] [SPEAKER_06]: We just can't have random bunch of semi speaking line elves

[01:47:50] [SPEAKER_06]: in the background making the rings with Sauron.

[01:47:53] [SPEAKER_06]: I think we need Anata.

[01:47:54] [SPEAKER_06]: I think we need Celebrimbor to represent that

[01:47:56] [SPEAKER_06]: as the face of the ring makers of the Smiths.

[01:47:59] [SPEAKER_00]: That makes sense to me.

[01:48:01] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, I think that's what I'm going on.

[01:48:02] [SPEAKER_00]: I like what you said about him needing someone

[01:48:04] [SPEAKER_00]: who's more bound to Middle Earth

[01:48:08] [SPEAKER_00]: to help him in creating it.

[01:48:10] [SPEAKER_00]: Like almost like I'm gonna do it again

[01:48:13] [SPEAKER_00]: going back to Buffy,

[01:48:14] [SPEAKER_00]: but how the first evil can't physically do anything

[01:48:19] [SPEAKER_00]: in our world and needs human servants

[01:48:24] [SPEAKER_00]: or demons to do works for it, her, him, them.

[01:48:29] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.

[01:48:30] [SPEAKER_06]: It also tracks with the fact that he's a Maya

[01:48:32] [SPEAKER_06]: in the same way that Astari are Maya.

[01:48:35] [SPEAKER_06]: And so the Astari are sent to Middle Earth.

[01:48:37] [SPEAKER_06]: They're not allowed to directly influence.

[01:48:40] [SPEAKER_06]: They're not allowed to make stuff or do stuff

[01:48:43] [SPEAKER_06]: or create big events themselves,

[01:48:46] [SPEAKER_06]: but their job is to influence others

[01:48:48] [SPEAKER_06]: who already live there to do the right thing.

[01:48:51] [SPEAKER_06]: And this is the flip side of that.

[01:48:53] [SPEAKER_06]: He's now influencing Celebrimbor to do the wrong thing

[01:48:57] [SPEAKER_06]: in the same way.

[01:48:58] [SPEAKER_06]: So he could just go off and make himself.

[01:48:59] [SPEAKER_06]: It's not the same.

[01:49:00] [SPEAKER_06]: He needs someone that's tied to it.

[01:49:01] [SPEAKER_06]: So I do like the symmetry of that.

[01:49:03] [SPEAKER_06]: I think that works really well.

[01:49:05] [SPEAKER_00]: And there's some magic in corrupting someone

[01:49:09] [SPEAKER_00]: who has morals

[01:49:11] [SPEAKER_00]: and manipulating him.

[01:49:13] [SPEAKER_00]: There's maybe something about the magic of the rings

[01:49:16] [SPEAKER_00]: is enhanced by him having manipulated someone to do it.

[01:49:21] [SPEAKER_06]: And it fits with his whole concept of control.

[01:49:24] [SPEAKER_06]: So Morgoth wanted to just smash and destroy

[01:49:28] [SPEAKER_06]: and Sauron wants to rule and control

[01:49:32] [SPEAKER_06]: by controlling and manipulating others.

[01:49:34] [SPEAKER_06]: And so it fits definitely with what he's doing there.

[01:49:36] [SPEAKER_06]: So I like it.

[01:49:37] [SPEAKER_06]: And I can't wait to see his descent into,

[01:49:40] [SPEAKER_06]: poor old Celebrimbor's descent into madness

[01:49:42] [SPEAKER_06]: and what happens with him at the end.

[01:49:45] [SPEAKER_06]: Exciting, scary and sad.

[01:49:46] [SPEAKER_00]: I keep thinking about last week

[01:49:48] [SPEAKER_00]: we read that interview with Charlie Vickers

[01:49:50] [SPEAKER_00]: where he said he gets to work with

[01:49:52] [SPEAKER_00]: the actor who plays Celebrimbor Charles

[01:49:55] [SPEAKER_00]: whose last name I've forgotten.

[01:49:57] [SPEAKER_00]: And that he's funny and that he falls down a lot.

[01:49:59] [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm like, oh, don't make fun of him.

[01:50:03] [SPEAKER_00]: Like he's going through a rough time.

[01:50:05] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.

[01:50:06] [SPEAKER_06]: It sounds like the long robes are a challenge.

[01:50:09] [SPEAKER_06]: I know back in the filming of the Lord of the Rings

[01:50:12] [SPEAKER_06]: Christopher Lee had a real problem

[01:50:14] [SPEAKER_06]: with his long robes at one point.

[01:50:16] [SPEAKER_06]: And there's actually a part in the extended edition

[01:50:19] [SPEAKER_06]: extras when he just says to Peter,

[01:50:23] [SPEAKER_06]: I just can't do it Peter.

[01:50:24] [SPEAKER_06]: These robes are just annoying.

[01:50:26] [SPEAKER_06]: I can't get up these stairs.

[01:50:27] [SPEAKER_06]: I can't do it.

[01:50:28] [SPEAKER_06]: And Peter just says quietly to him,

[01:50:29] [SPEAKER_06]: well you did it last time.

[01:50:31] [SPEAKER_06]: He just sort of put this incredible movie legend

[01:50:35] [SPEAKER_06]: gently into his place.

[01:50:36] [SPEAKER_06]: It's really amazing.

[01:50:39] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, but that must be hard.

[01:50:40] [SPEAKER_06]: I think it's hard enough hitting your marks

[01:50:42] [SPEAKER_06]: without the long robes flowing in front of you.

[01:50:44] [SPEAKER_06]: And so I think they did a pretty good job.

[01:50:47] [SPEAKER_06]: So there you go.

[01:50:48] [SPEAKER_06]: Anything else for Gladwell's Mirror?

[01:50:50] [SPEAKER_06]: Anything else spoilery from your end?

[01:50:52] [SPEAKER_06]: I don't think so.

[01:50:55] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, I think that's everything from me as well.

[01:50:57] [SPEAKER_06]: So I think that just about wraps us up for this week.

[01:51:00] [SPEAKER_06]: That will be our show for today.

[01:51:03] [SPEAKER_06]: Thank you everyone for listening.

[01:51:06] [SPEAKER_06]: You know, it is actually really hard Penny.

[01:51:08] [SPEAKER_06]: You know, we've got,

[01:51:09] [SPEAKER_06]: we always have at least the next episode sent to us

[01:51:11] [SPEAKER_06]: by Amazon and we're pacing them out

[01:51:14] [SPEAKER_06]: because we want to be able to podcast clean on each one.

[01:51:17] [SPEAKER_06]: But it is really hard to be patient

[01:51:19] [SPEAKER_06]: and not watch ahead.

[01:51:21] [SPEAKER_06]: It seems impossible.

[01:51:23] [SPEAKER_06]: It is called humility and it's difficult for most.

[01:51:27] [SPEAKER_00]: And it is the truest form of sight.