82: “If I Can't Reach You / Let My Song Teach You” (Agatha All Along S1E4)

[00:00:00] [SPEAKER_04]: Hmm?

[00:00:01] [SPEAKER_00]: Ah!

[00:00:03] [SPEAKER_00]: Hmm.

[00:00:04] [SPEAKER_00]: Hmm.

[00:00:06] [SPEAKER_00]: So, what do we think? Can we trust her?

[00:00:08] [SPEAKER_00]: We know nothing about her.

[00:00:10] [SPEAKER_03]: We know Agatha hates her. I'd say that goes in the pro column.

[00:00:16] [SPEAKER_03]: Honestly, I don't know how to feel. Do I hate her or do I want her phone number?

[00:00:21] [SPEAKER_00]: Same.

[00:00:22] [SPEAKER_00]: Right?

[00:00:23] [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, hello.

[00:00:24] [SPEAKER_00]: Hey.

[00:00:25] [SPEAKER_00]: Hello.

[00:00:26] [SPEAKER_00]: Hello.

[00:00:29] [SPEAKER_04]: What a scary bitch.

[00:01:00] [SPEAKER_03]: Hey, everybody. Welcome to the Marvel TV Cast from Podcastica. I am Penny.

[00:01:07] [SPEAKER_01]: And I am Jim. And today we'll be talking about Agatha All Along, Season 1, Episode 4, If I Can't Reach You, Let My Song Teach You.

[00:01:19] [SPEAKER_01]: Still haven't sung it yet. It's coming.

[00:01:21] [SPEAKER_03]: I have been listening to the song like non-stop on my Alexa and in the car. I love it. It, it rocks.

[00:01:33] [SPEAKER_03]: Um, the new version that we got this week, even better, like even more fun to sing along with. It's fantastic.

[00:01:42] [SPEAKER_01]: You, you had mentioned way back in the first episode that you had heard rumblings about there being multiple versions of this and I sort of had forgotten that.

[00:01:51] [SPEAKER_01]: So when this did confirm to be Alice's episode, my hope of course was that they would sing like a rock version of it and they gave it to us.

[00:02:01] [SPEAKER_01]: And what's amazing about it is they had alluded to the fact that the lyrics were different.

[00:02:06] [SPEAKER_01]: Um, but I listened to it so much on Spotify. I not Spotify. I just was listening to it on YouTube.

[00:02:12] [SPEAKER_01]: Um, I immediately noticed that it was different and, but it's so, what I love about it is it does give us like we can listen to the same song like three different ways right now.

[00:02:23] [SPEAKER_01]: Um, and they're so amazing. I, this version is my favorite and I don't know the dynamics of who was singing what yet. I haven't dug into that, but, uh, there's, there's the original version, um, that quote unquote mom sings.

[00:02:38] [SPEAKER_01]: That's actually out there too. Uh, that, that, um, I forget the lady's name.

[00:02:43] [SPEAKER_03]: Oh yeah. I wrote it down somewhere.

[00:02:45] [SPEAKER_01]: But we can get into that later.

[00:02:47] [SPEAKER_01]: But there I what's this is the the the simple fact that you and I could probably sit here for an hour just talking about the music is what to me makes this show so special.

[00:03:04] [SPEAKER_01]: There are layers to this show that are and if I'm being hyperbolic, I apologize.

[00:03:12] [SPEAKER_01]: But there are layers to the show that I just haven't seen in in any other Marvel show with the exception of WandaVision.

[00:03:20] [SPEAKER_01]: And I really think we've taken it to a much more satisfying lost level where we have so many things juggled at once.

[00:03:30] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[00:03:30] [SPEAKER_01]: But the fact that the music is so intangibly special and this is music created by the show for the show done in different ways, done in different styles that obviously connect with the writers.

[00:03:44] [SPEAKER_01]: And then, of course, Jack Schaefer probably has a lot to do with that.

[00:03:48] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm just so impressed.

[00:03:50] [SPEAKER_03]: So the original Agatha All Along song that was part of WandaVision charted on the Billboard charts.

[00:03:57] [SPEAKER_03]: And that was like the first time that had happened for a song, you know, Marvel in-universe song.

[00:04:03] [SPEAKER_03]: I don't know how many Marvel in-universe songs there are, but that was a big deal.

[00:04:07] [SPEAKER_03]: The Sacred Chant version of the Ballad of the Witch's Road, the one that was in Episode 2 that they opened the road with, debuted at number 22 on the Billboard charts.

[00:04:17] [SPEAKER_03]: Blowing everybody's mind.

[00:04:19] [SPEAKER_03]: And the numbers are not out yet for, I couldn't find them anywhere for the rock version.

[00:04:24] [SPEAKER_03]: So next week we'll maybe see those numbers.

[00:04:27] [SPEAKER_03]: But I got to imagine it's doing even better than the chant version because it is so fun.

[00:04:33] [SPEAKER_03]: It's so fun to sing.

[00:04:35] [SPEAKER_03]: Especially if your voice, like mine, is exactly the same range as Katherine Hahn's.

[00:04:46] [SPEAKER_03]: So it makes it a very natural fit for me to sing along with.

[00:04:49] [SPEAKER_03]: I don't have to strain my voice at all, which is good.

[00:04:53] [SPEAKER_01]: So what's interesting is when the series started, I think I was very much looking forward to hearing Patti LuPone sing.

[00:05:06] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, she obviously has done that throughout her career and is one of the most amazing singers, has amazing range,

[00:05:14] [SPEAKER_01]: has played so many different parts on Broadway that have just been remembered and special.

[00:05:21] [SPEAKER_01]: And it's crazy that we're in Episode 4 right now.

[00:05:27] [SPEAKER_01]: We've heard three different versions of the song, and she has not been prominent in any of them.

[00:05:33] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, she's just in the chorus.

[00:05:35] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, which tells me there cannot be a version of this song that she's not in some way.

[00:05:43] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I suppose there can be.

[00:05:45] [SPEAKER_01]: But tell me.

[00:05:47] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, like are they not going to use Patti LuPone and her amazing voice?

[00:05:51] [SPEAKER_03]: Like that seems insane.

[00:05:54] [SPEAKER_01]: Was that really Ali?

[00:05:56] [SPEAKER_01]: Was that really Ali Ahn singing?

[00:05:58] [SPEAKER_03]: I think so.

[00:06:01] [SPEAKER_01]: Because if it was, I mean.

[00:06:02] [SPEAKER_01]: She was rocking.

[00:06:05] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, I mean, what a different level for that character.

[00:06:09] [SPEAKER_01]: Listen, the Catherine, when Catherine Hahn started singing like that, we've heard that voice before.

[00:06:17] [SPEAKER_01]: I was content.

[00:06:18] [SPEAKER_01]: I was happy.

[00:06:19] [SPEAKER_01]: It was odd to me that Alice wasn't in the lead.

[00:06:24] [SPEAKER_01]: But when she took the song over, I was, I mean, I just, what?

[00:06:30] [SPEAKER_01]: How talented is she if it was her?

[00:06:32] [SPEAKER_03]: It was a great moment musically and also from a character perspective.

[00:06:38] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, yes.

[00:06:39] [SPEAKER_03]: And it's so interesting.

[00:06:40] [SPEAKER_03]: I guess we're in it, so we're there.

[00:06:45] [SPEAKER_03]: We're in the main discussion.

[00:06:46] [SPEAKER_03]: So, you know, early on, there were rumors that the show was a musical.

[00:06:54] [SPEAKER_03]: And a lot of people I know were like, I don't like musicals.

[00:06:57] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm not going to watch it.

[00:06:58] [SPEAKER_03]: And I was like, I don't think it's a musical.

[00:07:00] [SPEAKER_03]: And it's not.

[00:07:01] [SPEAKER_03]: But it has this one thing in common with musicals, which is that the song expresses the characters and their emotions and elements of the story.

[00:07:16] [SPEAKER_03]: But it's not a musical in the sense that, like, they're not always singing and they're not breaking into song in a way that doesn't make sense in the story.

[00:07:25] [SPEAKER_03]: They don't, like, express their conversations in song.

[00:07:28] [SPEAKER_03]: Like, the whole show is not a musical.

[00:07:30] [SPEAKER_03]: It just has this one musical element.

[00:07:32] [SPEAKER_03]: But I, people know I'm a huge fan of Buffy the Vampire Slayer.

[00:07:37] [SPEAKER_03]: Buffy famously had a musical episode.

[00:07:40] [SPEAKER_03]: And I think it's one of the best examples of a TV show having a musical episode in the way that the characters' songs had all these different flavors to them that really expressed their characters and what they were going through.

[00:07:55] [SPEAKER_03]: I especially think Spike's song was just so perfect for him.

[00:08:01] [SPEAKER_03]: Because it's this, like, grungy rock.

[00:08:03] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[00:08:04] [SPEAKER_03]: Like, tragic.

[00:08:06] [SPEAKER_03]: Like, heartbroken.

[00:08:07] [SPEAKER_03]: Like, emo.

[00:08:10] [SPEAKER_03]: Really interesting song.

[00:08:11] [SPEAKER_03]: And in this case, you know, Agatha channels sort of a Stevie Nicks, you know, rock goddess character with her, like, flowy outfit or whatever she was wearing.

[00:08:25] [SPEAKER_03]: And, but when Alice comes in and she sees the, whatever that scary demon thing was, and she's like, I see it.

[00:08:35] [SPEAKER_03]: I can kill it.

[00:08:36] [SPEAKER_03]: And then her singing ramps up.

[00:08:38] [SPEAKER_03]: And, and it gets full throated.

[00:08:40] [SPEAKER_03]: And the, the lyrics and her performance and the visuals all merge together in this perfect moment.

[00:08:47] [SPEAKER_03]: I was like, this, it is kind of a musical, but it's not a musical.

[00:08:53] [SPEAKER_03]: But it, like, in that moment, I was like, it's doing what musicals do when they do it best.

[00:08:57] [SPEAKER_03]: Which is like having those elements all come together to make this, like, much bigger impression than any of those things could separately.

[00:09:05] [SPEAKER_03]: It was a really cool moment.

[00:09:07] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I, I've been trying to wrap my head around this episode since it released and we watched it last week.

[00:09:16] [SPEAKER_01]: Because I, it's this weird parallel of both thinking this is the best episode, but not sure that it's because the episode is better than the others.

[00:09:29] [SPEAKER_01]: It feels like each episode sort of, you need the episode before to kind of build on the next.

[00:09:35] [SPEAKER_01]: It's ramping up the characters.

[00:09:37] [SPEAKER_01]: It's ramping up the story.

[00:09:40] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, last week it gave us our first death.

[00:09:45] [SPEAKER_01]: And it's just like, you know, the first episode, which adds weight to it.

[00:09:47] [SPEAKER_01]: So this episode to me sort of ample, exemplifies that thought.

[00:09:52] [SPEAKER_01]: The fact that it really did ramp up from beginning to that crescendo of the song.

[00:10:00] [SPEAKER_01]: And seeing Alice answer one of the questions that has been kind of one of these eight or nine or 10 or 50 questions that we have.

[00:10:14] [SPEAKER_01]: Of the, you know, her mom seemingly has died in a, in a pretty basic, well, a fire.

[00:10:22] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know how basic the fire was.

[00:10:24] [SPEAKER_03]: That seems to be related to this specific generational curse is it's fire.

[00:10:28] [SPEAKER_03]: Yes.

[00:10:29] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:10:29] [SPEAKER_01]: And that she was able to defeat the curse, at least on this, this path.

[00:10:38] [SPEAKER_01]: And, and it's such a satisfying way, both to the characters, but specifically to her, I was so happy for her.

[00:10:45] [SPEAKER_01]: There was a, a joy to it that I, I just, it kind of overwhelmed me when I was watching it.

[00:10:53] [SPEAKER_01]: I actually watched that, that song two or three times, not just for the song, but to kind of watch her go from a passive, you know, you're playing piano part.

[00:11:03] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, Catherine Hahn makes her do it to her, just taking over the song and destroying the curse.

[00:11:10] [SPEAKER_01]: And, um, I loved every second of it.

[00:11:15] [SPEAKER_01]: I accidentally, not accidentally, I watched the stupid trailer and I saw the moment when it happened in the trailer the week before we watched it.

[00:11:25] [SPEAKER_01]: And I couldn't tell who was sitting behind.

[00:11:28] [SPEAKER_01]: Thank goodness.

[00:11:28] [SPEAKER_01]: I couldn't tell who was sitting behind the piano, but, uh, I love how they, how the curse was a female character.

[00:11:37] [SPEAKER_01]: I love that, um, it's sort of fit everything in a very simple way.

[00:11:44] [SPEAKER_01]: Again, we're not using CGI.

[00:11:46] [SPEAKER_01]: This was a practical person, um, dressed up and, um, very creepy costume.

[00:11:54] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:11:55] [SPEAKER_01]: This, which they're doing and, and, and, and a legitimate, creepy, scary way.

[00:11:59] [SPEAKER_01]: I just, it, it ramped up the fear.

[00:12:03] [SPEAKER_01]: It ramped up because I really thought this was going to be it for Alice.

[00:12:07] [SPEAKER_01]: I thought she was going to do it, but I also thought this was because of Sharon, of course, passing away at the end of the last episode.

[00:12:14] [SPEAKER_01]: So I'm so happy that all of our characters made it through.

[00:12:17] [SPEAKER_03]: Um, but, uh, I had the moment of fear with the teen, but he, he made it.

[00:12:22] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.

[00:12:23] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, and then I, I, cause how crazy would that have been?

[00:12:26] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:12:26] [SPEAKER_01]: The teen.

[00:12:27] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:12:27] [SPEAKER_03]: That would have been wild.

[00:12:28] [SPEAKER_03]: Cause we would have been like, what were all the secrets for?

[00:12:31] [SPEAKER_03]: Like that, that would have been.

[00:12:33] [SPEAKER_03]: Talk about a red herring, right?

[00:12:35] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[00:12:37] God.

[00:12:37] [SPEAKER_03]: So the song that they sing, the, the Lorna Wu version of the song of the ballad has very different lyrics.

[00:12:45] [SPEAKER_03]: And I thought to do like a complete comparison.

[00:12:48] [SPEAKER_03]: And I was like, no, that will be the entire.

[00:12:49] [SPEAKER_03]: I have them side by side.

[00:12:51] [SPEAKER_01]: Just so you know, I'm staring at them right now.

[00:12:53] [SPEAKER_01]: Side by side.

[00:12:53] [SPEAKER_01]: Not surprised by that, but I pulled out a couple of bits.

[00:12:56] [SPEAKER_03]: So, um, the, the chant version of the ballad starts with seekest thou the road to all that's

[00:13:05] [SPEAKER_03]: foul and fair.

[00:13:06] [SPEAKER_03]: And it becomes, I have learned the lesson of all that's foul and fair.

[00:13:12] [SPEAKER_03]: And then darkest hour, wake thy power earthly and divine becomes the spell is cast.

[00:13:19] [SPEAKER_03]: How long it lasts.

[00:13:20] [SPEAKER_03]: I cannot divine.

[00:13:21] [SPEAKER_03]: Divine.

[00:13:23] [SPEAKER_03]: I loved it.

[00:13:25] [SPEAKER_03]: And I was like, we could do an entire episode just about these lyrics alone.

[00:13:30] [SPEAKER_03]: Um.

[00:13:31] [SPEAKER_01]: We should bring, at some point we should bring Kara in.

[00:13:33] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[00:13:34] [SPEAKER_01]: And have, you know, we can sit down and have a little round circle about, um, the difference

[00:13:39] [SPEAKER_01]: in the lyrics and which ones I, I, I like the song lyrics better.

[00:13:43] [SPEAKER_01]: Me too.

[00:13:44] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:13:44] [SPEAKER_01]: Because.

[00:13:45] [SPEAKER_03]: Well, they tell a, a little story and they also, I think they suggest that Lorna's not

[00:13:53] [SPEAKER_03]: really dead or that in some way Lorna and Alice will be reunited.

[00:13:57] [SPEAKER_03]: There's a lot of use of we, she says, we survive.

[00:14:01] [SPEAKER_03]: If I can't reach you love that never dies.

[00:14:04] [SPEAKER_03]: And mostly at the very end, I'll see you at the end.

[00:14:07] [SPEAKER_03]: I'll see you at the end.

[00:14:07] [SPEAKER_03]: I'll see you at the end.

[00:14:08] [SPEAKER_03]: I'll see you at the end.

[00:14:09] [SPEAKER_03]: So it seems like Lorna and Alice are going to be reunited in some way.

[00:14:14] Yes.

[00:14:14] [SPEAKER_03]: I also.

[00:14:15] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:14:16] [SPEAKER_01]: Which is exciting.

[00:14:17] [SPEAKER_01]: And I, but just to kind of add to that.

[00:14:19] [SPEAKER_03]: Okay.

[00:14:19] [SPEAKER_03]: Go ahead.

[00:14:20] [SPEAKER_03]: Sorry.

[00:14:20] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm so excited.

[00:14:21] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, just to add to that.

[00:14:22] [SPEAKER_01]: No, what makes me excited.

[00:14:23] [SPEAKER_01]: Why I like these lyrics better is because the original chant is a way to get on the road

[00:14:34] [SPEAKER_01]: in theory.

[00:14:34] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.

[00:14:35] [SPEAKER_03]: And seek something for yourself.

[00:14:36] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[00:14:37] [SPEAKER_03]: It's selfish.

[00:14:37] [SPEAKER_01]: Whereas the, this version was a mother's way to protect her child.

[00:14:45] [SPEAKER_01]: And I think you want to talk about main themes of this series.

[00:14:52] [SPEAKER_01]: Every rumor, every legitimate question that we have weighing down with Agatha involves a

[00:15:00] [SPEAKER_01]: mother and her child.

[00:15:01] [SPEAKER_01]: They throw that at us in episode one, when we get to see her potential child in the initial,

[00:15:08] [SPEAKER_01]: you know, Agatha of West End.

[00:15:11] [SPEAKER_01]: We of course have the hanging thought of Wanda and potentially the teen being her child.

[00:15:19] [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe the teen is Agatha's child.

[00:15:21] [SPEAKER_01]: And we have this story, which was blatantly given to us in the first time we meet Alice.

[00:15:29] [SPEAKER_01]: This.

[00:15:30] [SPEAKER_01]: So we knew at some point this was going to come to fruition.

[00:15:32] [SPEAKER_01]: So I really feel like, and when you stop and you think about all of these characters,

[00:15:38] [SPEAKER_01]: it does make me wonder.

[00:15:40] [SPEAKER_01]: We don't like right now.

[00:15:42] [SPEAKER_01]: We talked about Patti LuPone and I don't want to leave this.

[00:15:44] [SPEAKER_01]: So I, I just, I just, it's just how, how interesting we don't know a whole lot about some of these

[00:15:51] [SPEAKER_01]: characters, uh, their relationships with potentially their children or parents, which I think is going

[00:15:57] [SPEAKER_01]: to come.

[00:15:58] [SPEAKER_01]: The Patti LuPone character right now is my most curious.

[00:16:00] [SPEAKER_01]: I so hope episode five is about her because, but I sort of feel like we're in a slow burn,

[00:16:06] [SPEAKER_01]: but I, I just back to this, I just, the weight of the, the mother and the, the daughter, um,

[00:16:15] [SPEAKER_01]: piece of the lyrics, because all of these lyrics connect the mom to the daughter and have protected

[00:16:21] [SPEAKER_01]: the daughter through her whole entire life, uh, which we find out in this episode as well.

[00:16:26] [SPEAKER_01]: So, so I just, I just, the weight of that version of it is just so beautiful.

[00:16:31] [SPEAKER_01]: It gives so much weight to that version of it that, um, I cannot wait to, to listen to it again.

[00:16:37] [SPEAKER_01]: As soon as we're, well, as soon as we're done, I'm watching episode five, but after that,

[00:16:40] [SPEAKER_03]: I'll listen to it again.

[00:16:41] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[00:16:44] [SPEAKER_03]: I spent a lot of time going over the lyrics and I think that the third verse is a little bit of a

[00:16:52] [SPEAKER_03]: prophecy or instructions.

[00:16:56] [SPEAKER_03]: So it starts out, the road is wild and wicked winding out of time.

[00:17:01] [SPEAKER_03]: Fine.

[00:17:02] [SPEAKER_03]: Still, we face our fortune.

[00:17:04] [SPEAKER_03]: I think that's a reference to Lilia.

[00:17:08] [SPEAKER_03]: Chasing the sublime.

[00:17:10] [SPEAKER_03]: Hard to know.

[00:17:11] [SPEAKER_03]: That could be Agatha.

[00:17:13] [SPEAKER_03]: That could be the teen.

[00:17:14] [SPEAKER_03]: Anyone could be chasing the sublime.

[00:17:16] [SPEAKER_01]: They might all be chasing the sublime, to be honest with you.

[00:17:19] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[00:17:19] [SPEAKER_03]: What's lost is found.

[00:17:21] [SPEAKER_03]: Agatha's powers, maybe.

[00:17:24] [SPEAKER_03]: What's fierce is bound.

[00:17:26] [SPEAKER_03]: Jennifer.

[00:17:28] [SPEAKER_03]: We're broken and we're burned.

[00:17:30] [SPEAKER_03]: Alice.

[00:17:30] [SPEAKER_03]: Yes.

[00:17:31] [SPEAKER_03]: But take a breath and dance with death.

[00:17:34] [SPEAKER_03]: And I think death might be related to Rio.

[00:17:37] [SPEAKER_03]: I think she might be.

[00:17:39] [SPEAKER_03]: Oh.

[00:17:39] [SPEAKER_03]: Lady death.

[00:17:41] [SPEAKER_01]: For sure.

[00:17:42] [SPEAKER_01]: For sure.

[00:17:43] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:17:43] [SPEAKER_01]: We'll get to her.

[00:17:44] [SPEAKER_01]: But.

[00:17:44] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:17:44] [SPEAKER_01]: My love cannot be turned.

[00:17:46] [SPEAKER_03]: So I think.

[00:17:47] [SPEAKER_01]: There are a couple of quotes in this that give us some information on Rio.

[00:17:51] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:17:52] [SPEAKER_01]: Who again, we are reintroduced to in a fabulous way in this episode.

[00:17:57] Yeah.

[00:17:57] [SPEAKER_03]: So I think the song not only relates to protection of Alice and a mother's love for her daughter,

[00:18:04] [SPEAKER_03]: but also it's about the coven in some way.

[00:18:08] [SPEAKER_03]: And I keep going back to Lilia, how she had like an involuntary vision and wrote down the

[00:18:17] [SPEAKER_03]: names of these women.

[00:18:19] [SPEAKER_03]: Did that.

[00:18:20] [SPEAKER_03]: Where did that message come from to her?

[00:18:22] [SPEAKER_03]: Right.

[00:18:23] [SPEAKER_03]: And then she keeps calling out tarot cards.

[00:18:26] [SPEAKER_03]: And in this episode, the one she calls out is three of swords.

[00:18:30] [SPEAKER_03]: Where is that message coming from?

[00:18:32] [SPEAKER_03]: Who's sending her that message?

[00:18:33] [SPEAKER_03]: She also seemed to be channeling Lorna's mom at one point where she was like, Alice,

[00:18:37] [SPEAKER_03]: don't.

[00:18:38] [SPEAKER_03]: And that other time when she was like, save Agatha.

[00:18:41] [SPEAKER_03]: Like somebody sending messages through her.

[00:18:44] [SPEAKER_03]: I don't think that she's just, I don't think they come from her.

[00:18:48] [SPEAKER_03]: I think that they are directed.

[00:18:50] [SPEAKER_01]: Gosh, I feel like her episode, whatever episode it's going to be, is going to be a long one.

[00:18:56] [SPEAKER_01]: And is because I don't think you can do an episode for Lilia that doesn't incorporate all of these

[00:19:06] [SPEAKER_01]: little things that she's saying with whoever is saying it to her.

[00:19:11] [SPEAKER_01]: So we're going to, this is the episode sort of like the breakout episode in WandaVision where

[00:19:17] [SPEAKER_01]: Agatha goes, we find out all of the things that Agatha has been doing.

[00:19:21] [SPEAKER_01]: I do think that this, this is where Lilia's character will come into prominence.

[00:19:26] [SPEAKER_01]: And I can't imagine that that's going to be one of the shorter episodes.

[00:19:31] [SPEAKER_01]: Thankfully, all the episodes have been 40 plus minutes, but I do feel like we might have

[00:19:34] [SPEAKER_01]: an hour long episode coming up.

[00:19:36] [SPEAKER_01]: And if it's going to be, if it's not going to be the season finale, or maybe it will be,

[00:19:40] [SPEAKER_01]: I think when we get eventually to her trial or maybe her story, that's what we're going to get.

[00:19:45] [SPEAKER_01]: Because her story to me is, you can't be a witch that that's old without having a whole lot of

[00:19:52] [SPEAKER_01]: history and a whole lot of stories.

[00:19:53] [SPEAKER_01]: And I think there's a lot more power there than we've been, you know, I mean, right now she's an

[00:19:58] [SPEAKER_01]: eccentric weirdo.

[00:20:00] [SPEAKER_01]: And I guess this is my, I guess I'm going to be the conspiracy theorist of our, of our podcast,

[00:20:05] [SPEAKER_01]: because last week I was talking about how, how, how the teen was the bad guy.

[00:20:12] [SPEAKER_01]: Now I'm going to, you know, I feel like Lilia's maybe a key fulcrum point to all of the story,

[00:20:19] [SPEAKER_01]: which also scares me a bit because I think that I feel like she's trying to tell the story and

[00:20:30] [SPEAKER_01]: the person who tries to figure the person who's maybe at the root of the story, maybe isn't the

[00:20:35] [SPEAKER_01]: one who makes it till the end. I don't know. I don't, I don't, I don't know, but I'm, I don't

[00:20:40] [SPEAKER_03]: know, but I can't stop like wondering about it.

[00:20:45] [SPEAKER_01]: Watching Lilia walk through those murals when they first get into the trial.

[00:20:51] [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, the images of women being like tortured?

[00:20:54] [SPEAKER_01]: The pain.

[00:20:56] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. She was very deeply affected by them.

[00:20:58] [SPEAKER_01]: Um, yeah, I, I, there's so much, she's such an amazing actress. I'm so glad that they were

[00:21:07] [SPEAKER_01]: pinned to her face on that because the weight of what she was looking at, I mean, it would have been

[00:21:13] [SPEAKER_01]: a fun artistic choice not to even show the viewer what she was looking at, just to see it through her

[00:21:20] [SPEAKER_01]: perspective until the end, because she was telling that story, what she has done. Like she is the

[00:21:26] [SPEAKER_01]: eccentric, but she's had these big brief moments where you can see the weight of her as an actress,

[00:21:32] [SPEAKER_01]: Patti LuPone as an actress and the weight of, um, Lilia as the witch that she was. Um, I just, there's,

[00:21:40] [SPEAKER_01]: we don't know her story.

[00:21:42] [SPEAKER_01]: There's so much depth there.

[00:21:43] [SPEAKER_01]: It's insane to me how little we know. I mean, we know a little more about Alice, but there's still so

[00:21:48] [SPEAKER_01]: much, I think to be told there. Uh, and I, um, let's, can we talk since the house is tied to Alice,

[00:21:58] [SPEAKER_01]: we should talk about the house. I, I love this house reminds me so much of my youth because

[00:22:04] [SPEAKER_01]: I grew up, you know, both of us kind of grew up in the seventies and that, that was our seventies

[00:22:11] [SPEAKER_01]: house. It was fun seeing like the homages of the characters and what they look like.

[00:22:16] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, can we talk about the clothes? Oh, okay. Listen, and please forgive me to anybody who's

[00:22:24] [SPEAKER_01]: listening to this, but all of those clothes in one way or another kind of turned me on.

[00:22:28] [SPEAKER_03]: I just like, I, it was a very sexy look on all of them in very different ways, right? They were

[00:22:36] [SPEAKER_03]: completely different types, but they all were very clearly sort of late seventies, like glam rock era.

[00:22:44] [SPEAKER_01]: Like, well, they all, they all, they all made me so good. They all made me feel like a certain

[00:22:51] [SPEAKER_01]: person. Like, so the teen to me had kind of a Mick Jaggery look to, to him. Um, uh, I, I, I do,

[00:23:02] [SPEAKER_01]: I, I don't have a clue like Rio and Agatha had similar looks and I don't really, I couldn't really

[00:23:10] [SPEAKER_01]: connect them to anybody other than the fact that they were, they, they suited what they were wearing

[00:23:16] [SPEAKER_03]: suited them very well. Yeah. They looked amazing. I got sort of a Stevie Nicks vibe from Agatha.

[00:23:23] [SPEAKER_03]: Yes, definitely. And this is going to sound really weird, but the vibe I got off of Rio was so much,

[00:23:31] [SPEAKER_03]: not rock star and it was manager of rock star. Okay. Like there was a vibe I got off of her that

[00:23:40] [SPEAKER_03]: she's like the one who's like, all right, make sure everyone's got their cocaine and everybody's

[00:23:45] [SPEAKER_03]: ready to perform and I'll talk to the press. And you know, like she had a, a managerial vibe,

[00:23:54] [SPEAKER_03]: even though she had like, you know, rocker outfit on, it was different than the others. The others were

[00:23:59] [SPEAKER_01]: performers. She certainly seemed to act that way as well. Yeah. Like when she was at the drums,

[00:24:05] [SPEAKER_03]: she was all like, fine, I'll hit the drum, whatever. Yeah. Yeah. Which is very Aubrey Plaza too.

[00:24:10] [SPEAKER_03]: Like she's so good at looking. She's the only one. Did you notice in that moment,

[00:24:14] [SPEAKER_01]: there's a moment where everybody stopped playing except for her? Oh, I didn't notice that.

[00:24:19] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't, she's like, I don't care. I'm going to keep playing that. There's a, a base part that you

[00:24:26] [SPEAKER_01]: can keep hearing that's her playing while everybody else is when the, when the, um, curses for you first

[00:24:34] [SPEAKER_01]: see the curse, they all stop for a second. And when they stop, you can hear the, the drums continue.

[00:24:41] [SPEAKER_01]: Right. Like Aubrey Plaza is like, Rio's like, we're, I don't care what y'all are doing, but we need to

[00:24:46] [SPEAKER_03]: keep going here, which prompts everybody else. And also like, right. Demon, we all knew there was a curse.

[00:24:51] [SPEAKER_01]: Like, why are you guys surprised by this? Um, I look if, if Lillia wasn't or Patty LuPone, I, I,

[00:25:01] [SPEAKER_01]: I, uh, I know that we have a link about the clothes, um, coming up, which I've not read yet,

[00:25:07] [SPEAKER_01]: but I, I, if Patty LuPone did not pick her outfit herself, I'd be surprised. Cause she

[00:25:14] [SPEAKER_01]: totally looked like Liza Minnelli. Oh, so much Liza Minnelli. Which certainly is a parallel to her.

[00:25:22] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, they both have really, yeah, similar type people. Hand in hand. Yeah. I'm sure they've met

[00:25:29] [SPEAKER_01]: a million times and I'm sure that, uh, Patty LuPone would say that Liza Minnelli was probably

[00:25:34] [SPEAKER_01]: someone that, um, she certainly can thank her career for, but I guess they were kind of at the

[00:25:42] [SPEAKER_03]: same time. I'd have to go back and look at that. I'm not sure. I think Liza Minnelli is a little

[00:25:46] [SPEAKER_03]: older than Patty LuPone, but I'm sure that they have crossed paths in the Broadway world.

[00:25:50] [SPEAKER_03]: I thought Alice was sort of channeling a little Janis Joplin, maybe?

[00:25:54] [SPEAKER_01]: Janis Joplin for sure. Yeah.

[00:25:58] [SPEAKER_01]: And they're probably, if you go back to that early seventies female rock getup, I think you

[00:26:04] [SPEAKER_01]: probably will see two or three others that looked like her. But with the minute I saw her with those

[00:26:09] [SPEAKER_01]: glasses, I thought of a couple of very famous pictures of Janis Joplin wearing not the same

[00:26:15] [SPEAKER_01]: thing, but certainly you can see that whoever put that stuff together for Alice was thinking

[00:26:21] [SPEAKER_01]: that same thing.

[00:26:22] [SPEAKER_03]: And then I'm not sure who Jennifer was supposed to be channeling except for sort of like every

[00:26:27] [SPEAKER_03]: tambourine girl that's ever been in a rock band, you know, like she's pretty, she's got flowers

[00:26:35] [SPEAKER_03]: in her hair. She's like the groupie they give her, you know, but she had a bass to play instead

[00:26:40] [SPEAKER_03]: of a tambourine, which was pretty funny.

[00:26:44] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, and she's beautiful.

[00:26:46] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, she really is.

[00:26:47] [SPEAKER_01]: Whatever, whatever look they give her, I just, um, this cast is just a perfect malleable

[00:26:58] [SPEAKER_01]: cast that has fit so far into everything that they've done. Um, and I, gosh, it, we still

[00:27:05] [SPEAKER_01]: aren't even, we're just, we're just about to tip over the halfway mark.

[00:27:10] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.

[00:27:10] [SPEAKER_01]: We have a lot more trials and a lot more different things to look at and see how they fit into.

[00:27:15] [SPEAKER_01]: So I'm excited for that. Um, I have a question for you. So,

[00:27:20] [SPEAKER_01]: so we've seen, um, we've seen Jennifer's trial and now we've seen Alice's trial and two vastly

[00:27:30] [SPEAKER_01]: different worlds. Do you, who do you, do you feel like, I mean, is this all, I, there's

[00:27:38] [SPEAKER_01]: so many writers in so many rooms, but it's hard for me not to believe that this, this isn't

[00:27:43] [SPEAKER_01]: some sort of cross section of Jack Schaefer's life. I don't, it doesn't feel to me like this

[00:27:50] [SPEAKER_01]: would be something that she's just poaching random ideas from it. It feels to me like maybe

[00:27:55] [SPEAKER_03]: she had some personal meaning.

[00:27:57] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:27:58] [SPEAKER_03]: I wouldn't be surprised. I don't, I don't know enough about the comics to know if there are

[00:28:04] [SPEAKER_03]: things that are being pulled from the comic world or if these are references to, I mean,

[00:28:12] [SPEAKER_03]: they do seem to be slightly references to specific things. Like they even said last, last week

[00:28:17] [SPEAKER_03]: at the beach house, they didn't call it big little lies. They called it like huge tiny

[00:28:22] [SPEAKER_03]: lies or something like that. Um, and, and this week was definitely some specific references,

[00:28:28] [SPEAKER_03]: maybe not to a TV show, but to an era and a style of, of rock. And it reminded me a lot

[00:28:34] [SPEAKER_03]: of like, um, what's that movie? Um, the movie, uh, where the kid goes on tour with the rock

[00:28:44] [SPEAKER_01]: band. I know exactly the movie you're talking about. Yeah. It was a Cameron Crowe movie with

[00:28:49] [SPEAKER_03]: Kate Hudson. Yeah. And Billy Crudup. Our listeners are like yelling out the name of the movie.

[00:28:55] [SPEAKER_03]: Cause they know, well, we don't know. Anyway. Um, it reminded me of that sort of vibe of like,

[00:29:00] [SPEAKER_03]: you know, behind the scenes with the band. I almost expected there to be like lines of Coke

[00:29:05] [SPEAKER_03]: on the coffee table, like just sitting over there. I'm glad there weren't, but I wouldn't have not

[00:29:10] [SPEAKER_01]: have been surprised by that. Perhaps that would have brought Sharon, Sharon back to life,

[00:29:15] [SPEAKER_01]: back to life. Ooh, cocaine from my youth. Um, the movie was almost famous.

[00:29:21] [SPEAKER_03]: Almost famous. Yeah. Fabulous. Yeah. It seemed kind of intentionally pulling on that. I don't know

[00:29:28] [SPEAKER_03]: if it's personal to Jack Schaefer's life. I do think that the way that she wrote WandaVision

[00:29:35] [SPEAKER_03]: and the way that this show is coming together, I do think that it's the kind of thing, it's like

[00:29:42] [SPEAKER_03]: nine parts and you have to see all nine and then they all make sense. But until you see all of them,

[00:29:49] [SPEAKER_03]: each one is like half satisfying because you're like, Oh, there's so many open things. And it just,

[00:29:57] [SPEAKER_03]: when it all comes together, I'm very excited for the end because I think it's going to be like,

[00:30:01] [SPEAKER_03]: click, click, click, click, click, click, click. And everything's going to like, like,

[00:30:03] [SPEAKER_03]: like a game of pachinko, you know, like everything's going to fall into place and make sense in a way

[00:30:08] [SPEAKER_01]: that it couldn't until we see everything. So, and two, like, so we had Jen's story in episode three

[00:30:17] [SPEAKER_01]: and we got a little more. Well, and that's what it sort of feels like now we can get in a much

[00:30:24] [SPEAKER_01]: easier way. She seems in a lot of different ways, very freed up now. Um, they talk to her a little

[00:30:31] [SPEAKER_01]: bit about how freed up that she is and the things that she, I mean, think about it. Um, at the end of

[00:30:38] [SPEAKER_01]: this episode, you know, they, they, they defeat the curse. They climb through the piano and find out

[00:30:45] [SPEAKER_01]: that teen is, is a piece of glass stabbed into him. And immediately they turned to her. There was

[00:30:53] [SPEAKER_01]: her, whoever, whatever they thought of her prior to episode three, they now know the force that she's

[00:31:00] [SPEAKER_01]: got. And this is after the conversation where we do find out that it was, um, she, it was a doctor

[00:31:07] [SPEAKER_01]: and, and she was lured into it. And again, they answer a question with still leaving a note unanswered

[00:31:13] [SPEAKER_03]: parts of it. Like, she doesn't know how we did it. We don't know how we did it. But she, but they,

[00:31:18] [SPEAKER_01]: the fact that she immediately is able to save that, the teen immediately, she saves him.

[00:31:27] [SPEAKER_01]: I knowledge that you notice too, like I, I, and I cannot, maybe you can help me. There was a movie

[00:31:34] [SPEAKER_01]: that I have seen where someone cured somebody exactly the same way. And I cannot for the life of me think

[00:31:42] [SPEAKER_01]: of what it was. It was not a witch movie. So if anybody out there knows what, cause I, there was a

[00:31:48] [SPEAKER_01]: movie, um, I am, I thought with moonlight and water. No, there was, well, I don't know. I don't know.

[00:31:57] [SPEAKER_01]: There was, um, someone, it was, um, Sean Connery, um, Indiana Jones, the Indiana Jones movie.

[00:32:11] [SPEAKER_03]: Oh yeah. Um, right. He's shot. Indy has to like go through the, the trial, um, the trial. And then

[00:32:19] [SPEAKER_01]: he gets the water, the whole water that he could. Yeah. I mean, yes, he had to find the right cup

[00:32:26] [SPEAKER_01]: that would heal, that would heal his father. Yeah. And it was, um, he poured the cup over Sean

[00:32:32] [SPEAKER_01]: Connery and it literally just wiped away the wound exactly the same way that it wiped away the teen's

[00:32:38] [SPEAKER_01]: wound in this movie. I don't know if that's an homage. Um, I'm just really happy that my old brain

[00:32:42] [SPEAKER_03]: could remember that, but I, I thought it was interesting that when the curse attacked Lillia

[00:32:52] [SPEAKER_03]: and Jen and Agatha and Alice, it was with fire. When it attacked the teen, it threw him through a

[00:33:02] [SPEAKER_01]: window. So was it the curse or was it something else? Yeah. I definitely think it was something else.

[00:33:12] [SPEAKER_01]: It might be as simple as he's not part of their coven. I'm still not sure. Right. So he doesn't

[00:33:18] [SPEAKER_03]: share the curse with them. Yeah. Um, so the, the, maybe the demon just was like, get rid of this kid.

[00:33:24] [SPEAKER_01]: That's possible. Well, and I hate to again, be the conspiracy theorist here, but was it,

[00:33:30] [SPEAKER_01]: is it performative? Was this a way for them to, for him to get wounded? So they go, Oh,

[00:33:39] [SPEAKER_03]: we also got some really interesting information. So he asks Agatha, how do you lift a sigil? First

[00:33:45] [SPEAKER_03]: he asked her if she put the sigil on him and she says, no. And then she's like, actually,

[00:33:49] [SPEAKER_03]: I wouldn't know because that's how sigils work. Even the witch that cast them doesn't know. And I was

[00:33:54] [SPEAKER_03]: like, Oh, so it could have been Agatha, but it also could have been him. Yes. He could have put a

[00:34:00] [SPEAKER_03]: sigil on himself to go in and meet Agatha for whatever his re we know he has some kind of agenda.

[00:34:08] [SPEAKER_03]: He came to find Agatha. He's the one who wanted to find her. So he could have put that sigil,

[00:34:14] [SPEAKER_03]: anyone could have put it on him, but he could have put it on himself and literally not remember

[00:34:18] [SPEAKER_03]: that he did it because that's how sigils work. Um, we also found out that you can't lift them,

[00:34:24] [SPEAKER_03]: they have to serve their purpose. Once they've served their purpose, they can be destroyed. So,

[00:34:29] [SPEAKER_03]: um, that's, I don't know, that's like big. Now we know something like that's an answer,

[00:34:34] [SPEAKER_01]: but it just raises more questions. Yeah. Because it could quite literally be anybody

[00:34:39] [SPEAKER_01]: who's standing there, uh, including Rio, you know, we have again, kind of forgotten in all of this, the,

[00:34:49] [SPEAKER_01]: they're being chased, but we haven't seen them since episode one, two, two since episode two.

[00:34:57] [SPEAKER_01]: So, I mean, it could be them. Maybe he's serves them. I don't, I don't know. I do. Yeah. There's

[00:35:03] [SPEAKER_01]: so many possibilities that scene. And with all of these amazing actresses in this series, it's easy

[00:35:12] [SPEAKER_01]: to overlook Catherine Han sometimes. Yeah. She has so many scenes where she walks through,

[00:35:22] [SPEAKER_01]: I come and we might as well just talk about Agatha right now. She has so many scenes in this episode

[00:35:29] [SPEAKER_01]: specifically, which is why I think it's my favorite where she, we see all of these different sides.

[00:35:38] [SPEAKER_01]: And I don't know where we end up with all of these characters. I don't know if we ever get a clear,

[00:35:45] [SPEAKER_01]: um, who our hero is and who our villain is. This might be one of those shows where there's no

[00:35:50] [SPEAKER_01]: clear hero and villain that it's just a group of women who are looking for their place. I don't know.

[00:36:00] [SPEAKER_01]: But in this episode, we see the tender side of her. We see the loving side of her. We see the

[00:36:05] [SPEAKER_01]: vicious side of her. We see, and she walks in and out of all of these different versions of Agatha.

[00:36:14] [SPEAKER_01]: Like I put on my socks in the morning, the talent. I, I, there's a part of me that believes

[00:36:22] [SPEAKER_01]: that Jack Schaefer did this series because she wanted Catherine Han to be respected for

[00:36:32] [SPEAKER_01]: the actress that she was the fact. And you can say what you want. I would think of it more as like

[00:36:41] [SPEAKER_03]: the, the performance that Catherine Han put in, in WandaVision was a breakout performance and inspired

[00:36:51] [SPEAKER_03]: this. Yes. I think, I think that Marvel looked at it and they were like, there's something really

[00:36:58] [SPEAKER_03]: special here. We're responding to it. Fans are responding to it. The other characters are

[00:37:03] [SPEAKER_03]: responding to it. And Jack Schaefer was like, Ooh, Ooh, me, me, me, me, me. I want to do it.

[00:37:09] [SPEAKER_03]: Like I, I think it's more of a muse situation where she's like with this actress and this character,

[00:37:16] [SPEAKER_03]: there are no limits. Yes. Well, so let's write like I could do anything. Let's walk through some

[00:37:21] [SPEAKER_01]: of the stuff that happens to Agatha in this episode from the very beginning, the very opening

[00:37:27] [SPEAKER_01]: shot. What the heck was that beginning? Because she said, I didn't think you had it in you. I

[00:37:35] [SPEAKER_01]: didn't think I didn't think you had it in you. And then the teen who's digging, digging a hole for

[00:37:41] [SPEAKER_01]: a grave says you didn't think who had what in them. And she looks at him with that Agatha look.

[00:37:47] [SPEAKER_01]: That's pure. I don't want to say pure evil. It's pure mischief. It's more like, it's like,

[00:37:53] [SPEAKER_01]: it's pure complexity and just gives them that little wink, which pisses him off. And I, and I just,

[00:38:01] [SPEAKER_01]: I paused it at that moment because I know it could mean that there's more to Sharon. It could mean that

[00:38:12] [SPEAKER_01]: she was talking to herself. Was she talking to the teen?

[00:38:19] [SPEAKER_03]: We don't know.

[00:38:21] [SPEAKER_03]: I don't know.

[00:38:22] [SPEAKER_03]: Or is there a shadowy figure? Because I, I sort of, unlike third watch, I started relating that

[00:38:31] [SPEAKER_03]: sentence to who's sending the messages to Lilia.

[00:38:34] [SPEAKER_02]: Ah.

[00:38:36] [SPEAKER_03]: I was like, is there someone behind the road? Is the road a construct of some very powerful,

[00:38:42] [SPEAKER_03]: magical being or user?

[00:38:44] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. And if anybody would know about that, wouldn't it be Agatha who's supposedly...

[00:38:49] [SPEAKER_03]: Because she's walked the road before.

[00:38:51] [SPEAKER_03]: And she has been very not forthcoming about what that experience was like. Every time they ask her

[00:38:57] [SPEAKER_03]: about it, she changes the subject.

[00:38:58] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. Well, and that, that leads us to kind of our next major interaction with her, which is

[00:39:03] [SPEAKER_01]: hilarious by the way, when they are talking about the lyrics of the song and her and Jen get in the

[00:39:09] [SPEAKER_01]: argument that all of us have been in at one point, me specifically with Pearl Jam my whole entire life.

[00:39:15] [SPEAKER_01]: My wife would like punch me in the back of my head because we've gotten in so many arguments that I've

[00:39:19] [SPEAKER_01]: lost. But it's, it's, it's a joke and it kind of brings that, that like, oh, this is what I do with

[00:39:26] [SPEAKER_01]: all of my friends, but the weight of the difference of when, uh, her and Jen get in the argument where

[00:39:35] [SPEAKER_01]: Agatha says it's coven two and Jen says it's coven true, which is actually the lyrics.

[00:39:43] [SPEAKER_01]: And you realize that is Agatha, that she really make that mistake or she just screwing with everybody?

[00:39:50] [SPEAKER_01]: Is this all just a trip for her to get? And this is where the, at this point in the show, I thought,

[00:39:57] [SPEAKER_01]: gosh, she's just evil. Like, she's not going to be the good buy it. Good guy in this show.

[00:40:01] [SPEAKER_01]: She's just a vehicle for us to find another good guy. She's the bad guy. That's what I thought.

[00:40:07] [SPEAKER_01]: That's what I thought. I thought she's, because then they ask her how many made it when she went

[00:40:14] [SPEAKER_01]: before. And she went like that. And then I was like, does that mean just her or her and someone

[00:40:19] [SPEAKER_01]: else? And who was the someone else? And then I'm like, gosh, there's another question. So, um,

[00:40:25] [SPEAKER_03]: yeah, we don't, we don't know. Um, I don't think she's evil. I think she's selfish. Yeah. A narcissist.

[00:40:35] [SPEAKER_03]: Sometimes. Sometimes. She's, she's willing to do bad things for the sake of power. And I don't

[00:40:43] [SPEAKER_03]: think she cares that much about other people, like really one way or the other. Like she just sees

[00:40:49] [SPEAKER_03]: people as resources that she could use, but she clearly has developed some affection for the,

[00:40:55] [SPEAKER_03]: for team. Yeah. Whether it's because she thinks he's her long lost son or because he reminds her of

[00:41:02] [SPEAKER_03]: her long lost son or she thinks for whatever reason, the fact that sometimes she has a soft

[00:41:09] [SPEAKER_03]: face and then covers it with a hard face makes me think that there's genuine affection in there

[00:41:16] [SPEAKER_03]: and that she's very uncomfortable with it. And when he almost died, she had to sort of sit with that,

[00:41:24] [SPEAKER_03]: right? She sits with him while he's healing. Everyone else goes off and it's like bonding around

[00:41:28] [SPEAKER_03]: the fire and she's sitting with him until he wakes up. And again, the look on her face while

[00:41:35] [SPEAKER_01]: he's laying there asleep, uh, the look on her face, I can only ascribe to people who are

[00:41:46] [SPEAKER_01]: in love is not the right word, but people who love, who have a true love for someone else. And,

[00:41:52] [SPEAKER_03]: and her protectiveness of him started before he was hurt. She was putting herself between him and

[00:41:59] [SPEAKER_03]: danger in the house physically. And Agatha doesn't care about other people, but she,

[00:42:06] [SPEAKER_03]: she cares about him. So that's what made the moment at the very end of the episode. So heartbreaking.

[00:42:12] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. Oh, I do have a couple of things I want to talk about in the middle, but it is worth

[00:42:19] [SPEAKER_01]: talking about the end now because there's two sort of heartbreaking scenes to me. So he wakes up

[00:42:29] [SPEAKER_01]: and there's, there's a true bonding moment where in my mind in episode four, this is Agatha's

[00:42:40] [SPEAKER_01]: protagonist coming out party where they're talking, they're bonding. Um, and he says to her, um,

[00:42:48] [SPEAKER_01]: um, carefully, you don't say something nice to me, which I love the way that was worded.

[00:42:52] [SPEAKER_01]: And she, in a very loving way says, Oh, I won't. And then in either an incredibly stupid way or an

[00:43:03] [SPEAKER_01]: incredibly pointed way, depending on what you think about the teen, he immediately says back to her,

[00:43:09] [SPEAKER_01]: Agatha, what really happened to your son? And this is another one of those moments

[00:43:14] [SPEAKER_01]: where Catherine Han, you, they pan back to her face and she immediately turned, you see it.

[00:43:22] [SPEAKER_01]: She just turns back to Agatha and not even the Agatha we've seen at all in this episode and this

[00:43:30] [SPEAKER_01]: episode of the series, we see the Agatha from the walls go up. Yeah. We find the Wanda version of

[00:43:36] [SPEAKER_01]: Agatha where she's, she just that evil side of her, um, comes back into play, which leads to a whole

[00:43:44] [SPEAKER_01]: bunch of questions about, you know, why she's on the road, what happened on it, why she knows Rio,

[00:43:50] [SPEAKER_01]: which we'll, we'll talk about in a second. Cause the next scene is of course where Agatha and Rio have

[00:43:59] [SPEAKER_03]: their moment. Well, first Rio reveals, right? They're all comparing battle scars. The Jaws scene.

[00:44:07] [SPEAKER_01]: If you've seen Jaws, my favorite scene in Jaws is when all of our characters are sitting on the boat

[00:44:13] [SPEAKER_01]: that eventually becomes the coffin of, um, gosh, I'm not going to, I did not come prepared to talk

[00:44:19] [SPEAKER_01]: about Jaws, but where they're all comparing their wounds and the minute they start comparing their wounds,

[00:44:24] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm like, if this is homage to Jaws, then this is now officially my favorite show of all time.

[00:44:30] [SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, that scar scene was fabulous. Yeah. I loved it. And Agatha of course was so funny about,

[00:44:36] [SPEAKER_03]: she's like, have you heard of the Daughters of Liberty? And they're like, no. And she's like,

[00:44:39] [SPEAKER_03]: exactly. Like, we know what happened to them. And Rio says, I have a scar. Agatha says, no, you don't.

[00:44:46] [SPEAKER_03]: And then Rio's like, sure I do. And she tells the story where she had to do something to someone she

[00:44:52] [SPEAKER_03]: loved and it hurt them. And that is her scar. And it's so clear that it's Agatha. And it makes me

[00:44:59] [SPEAKER_03]: think that it has something to do with Agatha's son. And did Rio kill the son, take the son,

[00:45:06] [SPEAKER_03]: trap the son, like something happened. And, and it's something that Agatha couldn't forgive her for.

[00:45:14] [SPEAKER_03]: And Agatha gets up and leaves the fire and Rio then joins her. Right.

[00:45:17] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, well the quote though, the quote too, I, the quote, the quote's important. Cause you mentioned

[00:45:23] [SPEAKER_01]: earlier that you thought she might be deaf and we've seen a couple of instances where death,

[00:45:30] [SPEAKER_01]: like if you go back to episode three, Lillia saw what I thought was death walking up behind the lady

[00:45:36] [SPEAKER_01]: that was sitting at the table. But she says a long time ago, I love someone and I had to do something

[00:45:43] [SPEAKER_01]: that I did not want to do. So we're talking about a job now. Um, even though it was my job,

[00:45:49] [SPEAKER_01]: um, and it hurt them. She is my scar. And it was so clear that she was talking about Agatha. I mean,

[00:45:56] [SPEAKER_01]: they were sitting side by side and you can see Agatha's reaction to that. If we're talking about

[00:46:01] [SPEAKER_01]: her son and her son died, then Rio definitely is dead. But, but let me, let me ask you.

[00:46:12] [SPEAKER_01]: So this is where I'm confused and where perhaps, um, a Marvel scholar would be helpful.

[00:46:22] [SPEAKER_01]: How is death portraying a witch? I don't know how else to say it. And that's where I'm.

[00:46:33] [SPEAKER_03]: Is I, so I went through a lot of thoughts of who Rio could be. And I don't, again,

[00:46:37] [SPEAKER_03]: I don't know the Marvel lore. So I thought maybe she just works for death or maybe death doesn't work

[00:46:43] [SPEAKER_03]: in the Marvel universe the way that, that we think it does. Um, but also I, I was thinking a lot about

[00:46:52] [SPEAKER_03]: when someone said, when, when Rio said, I'm not so much a green witch as the green witch.

[00:46:58] [SPEAKER_03]: Yes. And it, it got me to thinking about how in some mythologies, the first witch is Lilith

[00:47:04] [SPEAKER_03]: and Lilith was supposedly Adam's first wife before, before God made Eve. And, and Lilith refused to be

[00:47:12] [SPEAKER_03]: subjected to the domination of Adam and, you know, I don't know, proto patriarchy. And so she,

[00:47:21] [SPEAKER_03]: she's often called like the, the mother of demons or the first witch or the first demon. And I was like,

[00:47:28] [SPEAKER_03]: what if Rio is Lilith? Um, I also got to thinking about the fact that her name Rio means river and

[00:47:36] [SPEAKER_03]: that rivers are associated with both life and death, right? There's like the river sticks that

[00:47:43] [SPEAKER_03]: you cross over to go into the land of the dead in Greek mythology, but also rivers bring life.

[00:47:48] [SPEAKER_03]: Rivers are water. There's so many different symbols floating around this character that

[00:47:54] [SPEAKER_01]: I have too many ideas. So here we have a second major character and we quite honestly have no idea

[00:48:04] [SPEAKER_01]: who she actually is. And even if she is death, why she's portraying a witch, why is she so connected to

[00:48:15] [SPEAKER_01]: Agatha and why, how did death fall in love, lady death fall in love with Agatha, that whole backstory.

[00:48:22] [SPEAKER_01]: So obviously the Agatha episode is going to be super intriguing as well.

[00:48:28] [SPEAKER_03]: Oh my God. I, I, so while they're in the house, Agatha proposes a truce to Rio. I don't think that's a

[00:48:37] [SPEAKER_03]: genuine proposition, but she, there's some truth to it. You know, she's like, it'll be work and play

[00:48:42] [SPEAKER_03]: like old times. And then she gets Rio to say over the loudspeaker, like the oldest trick in the book,

[00:48:48] [SPEAKER_03]: right. If you're in a sound booth, like that's going to happen. That's what sound booths are for

[00:48:53] [SPEAKER_01]: in TV shows and movies. That threw me off by the way, because in my head, I was like, it didn't make

[00:49:00] [SPEAKER_01]: sense that she was the one pressing the microphone. I was like, that had to be Rio pressing the microphone

[00:49:05] [SPEAKER_01]: because she wanted them to hear that Agatha was going to try to kill them all.

[00:49:11] [SPEAKER_03]: And except Agatha didn't say she was going to try. Rio said, I'll watch you do what you do best.

[00:49:17] [SPEAKER_03]: You'll, you'll kill them all and take their power. So Agatha never said she would do that. And then

[00:49:22] [SPEAKER_03]: she's like, and I'll get my bodies. And I'm like, what does she use the bodies for? Why does she need

[00:49:27] [SPEAKER_03]: bodies? Why are they her bodies? That's, I think what got me thinking she was death. And then Agatha,

[00:49:33] [SPEAKER_03]: you know, all incensed. I would never do that. That's my coven you're talking about. I'm not that

[00:49:39] [SPEAKER_03]: kind of witch anymore. Like so performative, hilarious. And Rio is sort of annoyed, but like

[00:49:46] [SPEAKER_03]: also a little bit like, ha ha. Well, that's the tug and war between the two. And coming back to

[00:49:52] [SPEAKER_01]: Lilia, that comes back into play because of course, Lilia, you know, as everybody's sort of bonding,

[00:49:58] [SPEAKER_01]: Lilia walks over and leans over to her and says, don't think I've forgotten what you said.

[00:50:03] [SPEAKER_01]: Um, yeah. And I, I just have this feeling. I just have this feeling that we have not yet seen

[00:50:13] [SPEAKER_01]: the type of witch that Lilia could possibly be because the battles that lie in front of us

[00:50:19] [SPEAKER_01]: are going to be so fun, especially between. The show is clearly going to keep ramping up,

[00:50:25] [SPEAKER_03]: right? We're just going to, it's just going to keep getting more and more intense. There's going to

[00:50:29] [SPEAKER_03]: be more witchy goodness and powers are going to come into play. And I mean, it feels to me like

[00:50:36] [SPEAKER_01]: we're heading for battles, but based on the witches, based on the ballot that we have been talking about

[00:50:45] [SPEAKER_01]: from episode one, um, I sort of feel like the true story will come after those battles because I

[00:50:54] [SPEAKER_01]: think this is a series of, uh, reunification. I think that, um, perhaps everybody's journey is to

[00:51:01] [SPEAKER_01]: find what they have lost. We have a mother looking for her son. We have a daughter looking for her

[00:51:12] [SPEAKER_01]: mother. We have Lilia who we don't know what's going on there yet, but that's super curious.

[00:51:18] [SPEAKER_01]: We don't know what's going on with Rio, although she may be just looking for bodies. Apparently,

[00:51:23] [SPEAKER_01]: um, we have, uh, Jen who may be found what she was looking for already. Maybe her loss was that

[00:51:32] [SPEAKER_01]: because it does seem to me that she, when they were talking about her being a witch, she literally said

[00:51:41] [SPEAKER_01]: that that's, I, I was a witch, but that's not all I was. I was a midwife. Right. She was a root

[00:51:47] [SPEAKER_01]: worker and a midwife. And, and that, what I love the most about people, um, let alone characters is

[00:51:57] [SPEAKER_01]: we all perceptually, you know, when we meet people, we, we perceptually, you know, tag them with whatever

[00:52:06] [SPEAKER_01]: tags that they, we, we see, you know, you know, Penny is a, was a lawyer, Jim is a teacher. So there

[00:52:14] [SPEAKER_01]: are things that go with that. And then the fun of meeting a person is when you start to unwrap that

[00:52:18] [SPEAKER_01]: present. And I think watching Jen after episode three, the moments where they were complimenting

[00:52:26] [SPEAKER_01]: her, patting her on the back. And as a teacher, so often people forget how special that can be.

[00:52:34] [SPEAKER_01]: And you can tell that since she's been bound, since she's lost the ability to be all of the things that

[00:52:41] [SPEAKER_01]: she used to be, Jen has had no joy. And those, there was a moment where they were complimenting

[00:52:47] [SPEAKER_01]: her on, look at what you did, especially after she saved teen, the look on her face that we got

[00:52:54] [SPEAKER_01]: to see two or three times in this episode from, and what a fabulous actress. Again, another one of

[00:53:00] [SPEAKER_01]: another actress of multitudes that is going to break out of the show and do other great things.

[00:53:06] [SPEAKER_01]: But, you know, you think about her and Catherine Hahn and, and, and their, their history of improv and

[00:53:13] [SPEAKER_01]: we're getting to see such a depth that comes from that. But I just the, the unwrapping of these

[00:53:19] [SPEAKER_01]: characters, you know, I, I, you know, was real, the big bad after the first episode, it seems so,

[00:53:25] [SPEAKER_01]: but then you can see that like, she has a job, but you can see that there's more to it than that for

[00:53:33] [SPEAKER_01]: her. Can I, uh, here's another question for you, Penny, going back to the beginning. I know that

[00:53:43] [SPEAKER_01]: I, I, I will probably argue this point. I kind of think that Agatha was calling her

[00:53:55] [SPEAKER_01]: when she, she's the one who said we need to get another green witch. Watched it. Yeah.

[00:54:03] [SPEAKER_01]: Is it just me or, I mean, she had to have insight enough to know that whatever they were going to

[00:54:10] [SPEAKER_01]: say at that, um, when they were saying that spell to bring another green witch, she had to know

[00:54:16] [SPEAKER_01]: that, that Rio was going to show up. Agatha had to know or Jen had to know. Agatha, Agatha,

[00:54:22] [SPEAKER_03]: back to Agatha. I don't know if Agatha expected Rio. She seemed pretty shocked when she showed up,

[00:54:29] [SPEAKER_03]: when it, when Rio showed up. And then Rio is like, magic did what magic always does. It took

[00:54:34] [SPEAKER_03]: the path of least resistance. I was the closest green witch. And then she's like, it sent me down

[00:54:40] [SPEAKER_03]: or up. Oh, um, which I thought was just a cute way to put that. Uh, it did seem like I definitely

[00:54:49] [SPEAKER_03]: get this vibe that Agatha has deep respect for Jen and that Jen has all this knowledge that she sort

[00:54:56] [SPEAKER_03]: of forgot she even had because she thought her powers were the most important part when it turns

[00:55:01] [SPEAKER_03]: out her knowledge was the most important part. Um, you scared me last week though. You scared me last

[00:55:07] [SPEAKER_01]: week because when you said that, you know, when, when Sam asked us who was the next one to die.

[00:55:14] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. And I, Oh, and I said, whoever gets resolved. I think I, I picked, I think I picked Alice because

[00:55:19] [SPEAKER_01]: of the curse, which I, I now I'm convinced that Jen is not like too many good things or maybe this is a

[00:55:27] [SPEAKER_01]: walking dead thing. Too many good things are happening here for Jen. I now want her to like,

[00:55:37] [SPEAKER_01]: she, she, she seems most rooted of all the characters so far. Uh, and I just love

[00:55:44] [SPEAKER_01]: the backstory. I mean, you and I have both grown up watching some tangible shows about,

[00:55:49] [SPEAKER_01]: about witches and shows that have given them more than there. So many times witches are just witches.

[00:55:57] [SPEAKER_01]: And the thing I like about a lot of the stuff that's been put out over the past 30 years in TV and in

[00:56:02] [SPEAKER_01]: movies are perspective pieces where we get to see these witches as, as I hate to say it this way,

[00:56:08] [SPEAKER_01]: but as humans. And, um, Jen to me is the first of all of these witches who conveys like a goodness

[00:56:18] [SPEAKER_01]: to her. You can see that, yeah, she was a witch, but that really just enhanced all of the other things

[00:56:23] [SPEAKER_03]: that she did. I mean, the powers that she pursued were healing powers. That's innately good. And men,

[00:56:32] [SPEAKER_01]: you want to talk about patriarchy, how she was bound, which she still doesn't understand,

[00:56:41] [SPEAKER_01]: which we probably will never understand because it sort of fits the confines of, you know,

[00:56:48] [SPEAKER_01]: the early 1900s, late 1800s when it happened of a doctor of obstetrics, seeing a female doing something

[00:56:56] [SPEAKER_01]: that he could never dream of doing, finding a way to stop it from happening so that he could continue

[00:57:01] [SPEAKER_01]: whatever sort of quack crap he was doing. And I mean, it's symbolic of what happened during a lot of

[00:57:08] [SPEAKER_03]: the witch trials, which was basically just midwives and women of herb lore who were not part of the

[00:57:20] [SPEAKER_03]: system and therefore threatened, threatened the system and were called witches and killed.

[00:57:26] [SPEAKER_03]: And Jen is symbolic of that particular stretch of the horrible history of witch hunting, which I'm

[00:57:34] [SPEAKER_03]: happy to say does not belong only to the US. We weren't the only country where that was happening.

[00:57:40] [SPEAKER_03]: It's nice to share the blame of being horrible with our European brethren. Witch hunting has actually

[00:57:48] [SPEAKER_03]: gone on through like most cultures and it's, well, I mean, I recently said like, it's a way that,

[00:57:54] [SPEAKER_03]: you know, was used to, to keep women from getting out of line. And my brother who is like that was like,

[00:58:02] [SPEAKER_03]: well, sometimes men were burned too. And I was like, yes, sometimes men were burned too. And you're right.

[00:58:08] [SPEAKER_03]: I don't know as much about that history as I do about women. I bet they were queer. Like I,

[00:58:15] [SPEAKER_03]: I bet, I bet those men were, were outsiders in some way. No. Um, let me ask you, and this is

[00:58:22] [SPEAKER_01]: threatening to people in some way. This you're a hundred percent correct. And this is why I love

[00:58:28] [SPEAKER_01]: doing this podcast with you. And again, this is not to get political and I'm certainly not, but

[00:58:33] [SPEAKER_01]: it's easy to look at today. And I don't think it's too hard to squint your eyes a little bit at

[00:58:43] [SPEAKER_01]: everything that's happening in our world and, and not think that in some form or fashion, the same

[00:58:49] [SPEAKER_01]: exact thing is happening in just a very, very technological way where, uh, specifically in

[00:59:00] [SPEAKER_01]: our society, um, certain women with, who are acquiring power by doing good things are certain,

[00:59:08] [SPEAKER_01]: or in many ways, sometimes vilified, um, because of how they cackle or how they, um, go about doing

[00:59:19] [SPEAKER_01]: things, um, whether it be through science or whether it be through emotion or whether it be through all of

[00:59:25] [SPEAKER_03]: these tangible things that, you know, people mind. Yeah. The attacks on women haven't really changed

[00:59:33] [SPEAKER_03]: in hundreds of years. I don't like how she laughs. I don't find her attractive. There's something

[00:59:39] [SPEAKER_03]: about that, that really angers some people. Like if she's not pretty, then she must be bad. Um,

[00:59:46] [SPEAKER_03]: she doesn't have any of her own babies. That's suspicious for some reason. Maybe you create it.

[00:59:51] [SPEAKER_01]: Um, well, Hey, Hey, she might've created too smart. She might've created a storm.

[00:59:57] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. So I, Oh yeah. She controls the weather. And I, again, I don't want this to be political. I just,

[01:00:02] [SPEAKER_01]: you know, if you just look at parallels from the 1600s and you try to tangibly look at how,

[01:00:08] [SPEAKER_01]: you know, powerful woman or looked at today, I think it's, it's not hard to see how one domino

[01:00:15] [SPEAKER_01]: falls into another. Um, and, and to be quite honest with you, it wouldn't shock me if at some point,

[01:00:23] [SPEAKER_01]: someone very prominent might say, is she a witch? Yeah. Um, and by, and the fact that

[01:00:32] [SPEAKER_03]: witch has come to mean like a woman, I don't like when it's original meaning is a woman who has her own

[01:00:41] [SPEAKER_03]: power, it is telling, you know, the word spinster that, that the connotation, the, the sort of modern

[01:00:51] [SPEAKER_03]: day meaning of spinster is like a woman who never got married and she's like sad and lonely and lives

[01:00:56] [SPEAKER_03]: alone. Well, the original meaning of spinster was a woman who ran her own like spinning business and

[01:01:04] [SPEAKER_03]: therefore had her own money and often didn't get married because she didn't have to. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:01:08] [SPEAKER_03]: And it's been turned into an insult, but honestly, I'm a spinster and I'm proud of it that I, you know,

[01:01:15] [SPEAKER_03]: I support myself. I made my own money. I found a way to not need to be tied to another person to

[01:01:22] [SPEAKER_03]: survive. It's just, I also don't want to get too political because it sort of ruins the fun of

[01:01:29] [SPEAKER_03]: everything, but it's hard when this show is so much about women who break rules, women who don't

[01:01:35] [SPEAKER_03]: fit in the mold, women who are covenless, right? They're not even accepted maybe by other women because

[01:01:42] [SPEAKER_03]: they are rule breakers and iconoclasts and powerful in their own right. And it scares people.

[01:01:49] [SPEAKER_01]: Sure. Sure. But the brilliance of this show, if you, you know, look at Marvel shows over the past

[01:02:00] [SPEAKER_01]: five to 10 years and some of the hits that they've taken, whether it be Captain Marvel because of a

[01:02:05] [SPEAKER_01]: female lead or whether it be any of the shows that kind of dip their toes into the LGBTQ plus world,

[01:02:12] [SPEAKER_01]: the brilliance of this show is that this show is not dipped into the LGBTQ plus world. It is flat out.

[01:02:20] [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, it's simmering deep in it. But it's deep.

[01:02:23] [SPEAKER_01]: What's amazing to me in it, they don't hide from it at all. As a matter of fact, my favorite quote of

[01:02:29] [SPEAKER_01]: the entire episode is when Agatha has her moment of asking for the green, whatever green, which comes

[01:02:36] [SPEAKER_01]: and she literally, well, let's go through the whole thing. She, you know, Agatha comes up with the idea

[01:02:41] [SPEAKER_01]: for the green witch and Jen says, may she be strong and wise and the best at her craft.

[01:02:48] [SPEAKER_01]: Agatha says, may she be smart and not annoying and also not, you know, super political, which I'm sorry.

[01:02:56] [SPEAKER_03]: I think that was for the fans.

[01:02:57] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, yeah, because a lot of shows of recent past in Marvel have gotten derailed because of

[01:03:07] [SPEAKER_01]: it's too LGBTQ plus. Whereas this show has not run from it at all. We have that moment where they,

[01:03:15] [SPEAKER_01]: where Rio, she comes out looking like some insane, I'm sorry, but when you do that clicky thing out

[01:03:22] [SPEAKER_01]: of the ground, it makes me wonder.

[01:03:23] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh yeah. That was creepy.

[01:03:24] [SPEAKER_01]: But it, that, it starts off that way and it ends with her literally skipping down the road

[01:03:29] [SPEAKER_01]: like Dorothy. Did you see that?

[01:03:31] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[01:03:32] [SPEAKER_03]: Oh yeah. That was very wizard of Oz or the whiz. I wasn't sure which one it was.

[01:03:36] [SPEAKER_01]: It might've been, yeah, it might've been actually homage to both because I think if you watch

[01:03:39] [SPEAKER_01]: Dorothy, Dorothy does normal skips for a while and then she kind of does that double skip,

[01:03:43] [SPEAKER_01]: but I actually think it's more whiz than wizard of Oz. But there's that one cute little moment.

[01:03:49] [SPEAKER_01]: And I mean, Aubrey Plaza is at her like sexiest best, sort of playful in the moment. She does that

[01:03:56] [SPEAKER_01]: demonic voice, which scared the living crap out of me the first time that I saw it. And that one

[01:04:02] [SPEAKER_01]: moment though, where she's, you know, where Jen and Alice look at each other and say,

[01:04:10] [SPEAKER_01]: what was it?

[01:04:12] [SPEAKER_01]: Am I afraid of her or do I want her phone number?

[01:04:17] [SPEAKER_01]: And, and so, and the, and I can't remember who said it first. I think Alice or Jen said it first

[01:04:24] [SPEAKER_01]: and then Alice said, yeah, or maybe it was the other way around.

[01:04:29] [SPEAKER_03]: It doesn't matter because they both were feeling it.

[01:04:31] [SPEAKER_01]: It was just super subtle, super brilliant. And just let us know that these characters,

[01:04:36] [SPEAKER_01]: the depth of these characters are far beyond sexuality or far beyond anything that we could

[01:04:44] [SPEAKER_01]: possibly comprehend. And I think part of the brilliance of this show, when you get right

[01:04:48] [SPEAKER_01]: down to it is the fact that while a show like lost gave us questions, so many times we were left

[01:04:56] [SPEAKER_01]: and lost is a top five show for me, but so many episodes I was left empty because

[01:05:06] [SPEAKER_01]: the questions became more important in some ways than some of the characters that were involved.

[01:05:12] [SPEAKER_01]: And the characters were great in that show. Don't get me wrong. But in this show,

[01:05:15] [SPEAKER_01]: there's such a tangible present depth where these characters are just given so much

[01:05:25] [SPEAKER_01]: story to wrap their, their brilliance around that even though that I don't know any of their

[01:05:31] [SPEAKER_01]: backstories other than the little tidbits we've got given, I feel like I'll be okay with just the big

[01:05:38] [SPEAKER_01]: questions answered at the end because who these characters are becoming, the journey that they're

[01:05:43] [SPEAKER_01]: going on is so important and it's so weighty and it's so beautiful that who they are now is way more

[01:05:52] [SPEAKER_01]: important in the storytelling sense than who they used to be. Now we all know that who they used to

[01:05:58] [SPEAKER_01]: be is going to come back, but I think that because we fall in love with all of these characters, I mean,

[01:06:04] [SPEAKER_01]: in one, there are two episodes, Sharon became very weighty to the point where when she passed, like we

[01:06:10] [SPEAKER_01]: truly miss her. It brings Rio into the story, but all of these characters have their depth and we still

[01:06:17] [SPEAKER_01]: aren't even halfway across halfway to the end. Um, I just, I, but at the same time, they are women

[01:06:27] [SPEAKER_03]: in a very recognizable way to me. Yes. I just got back from a trip where I spent a whole weekend in a

[01:06:35] [SPEAKER_03]: house with seven other women and, and one very patient dude and, um, who mostly kept to himself.

[01:06:45] [SPEAKER_03]: He was very diplomatic about it. And, um, we all remarked on, and we're all of a sort of a similar age.

[01:06:53] [SPEAKER_03]: And by the end of the weekend, we all remarked on how powerful it felt to be around

[01:07:03] [SPEAKER_03]: women who had no agenda of wanting anything from each other. It was purely joy and love and mutual

[01:07:12] [SPEAKER_03]: support. We're from incredibly different walks of life, different geographic locations, different

[01:07:19] [SPEAKER_03]: professions, different educational backgrounds. And yet we had these commonalities and I can't tell

[01:07:26] [SPEAKER_03]: you how many times over the course of the weekend, I was like, y'all want to be a coven? Like I just

[01:07:31] [SPEAKER_03]: wanted to make them my coven because I, the closeness that I felt with them and, and the, the vibe

[01:07:38] [SPEAKER_03]: that we all were getting of like, I love this. I love this being around mature women in a way where

[01:07:48] [SPEAKER_03]: we're just being together and there's no agenda. There's no competition. There was never a moment of

[01:07:56] [SPEAKER_03]: like any of us being like trying to get a guy. There was no romantic complications. It was just

[01:08:03] [SPEAKER_03]: pure feminine friendship. And then rewatching the episode after that experience, I was like,

[01:08:12] [SPEAKER_03]: that's a little bit what's happening with these women. You know, they're, they're realizing that

[01:08:17] [SPEAKER_03]: they've been lonely. Each one of these women was alone when we found them and they were lonely people

[01:08:22] [SPEAKER_03]: there and, and they were suspicious of each other, but they are bonding as women and as witches because

[01:08:29] [SPEAKER_03]: of the shared experiences. And also because they're realizing that each other can understand each other

[01:08:37] [SPEAKER_03]: that, that, and that they are more powerful together in their diversity than any of them are alone,

[01:08:46] [SPEAKER_03]: which was the whole, um, what was the last tarot card we talked about? The three swords,

[01:08:54] [SPEAKER_03]: 10 of cups. Oh, this was three of swords. I don't remember what the one was before,

[01:08:59] [SPEAKER_03]: but whatever the last tarot card was, it was about teamwork. Three of swords. Interestingly,

[01:09:04] [SPEAKER_03]: the one that came up this episode is about basically breakups or memories of a painful breakup.

[01:09:11] [SPEAKER_03]: So I think it was all about Rio and Agatha. Um, the three of swords is about like, sometimes

[01:09:17] [SPEAKER_03]: relationships need to end. Sometimes relationships aren't good for you. And even though ending them

[01:09:23] [SPEAKER_03]: can be painful, it's good for you to do it and you can move on. And it's unclear to me if the three

[01:09:30] [SPEAKER_03]: of swords was like about Agatha remembering her past with Rio and Rio remembering her past with Agatha,

[01:09:37] [SPEAKER_03]: or if it was like warning them not to get together again. I'm not sure if it was like

[01:09:41] [SPEAKER_03]: back looking or forward looking, but, um, there is a power in, in feminine friendship.

[01:09:49] [SPEAKER_03]: And I can't speak to what it's like for men when men all get together. And, and I'm sure that there

[01:09:54] [SPEAKER_03]: is something unique about that as well. But I was very moved by the representation. So I think,

[01:10:02] [SPEAKER_01]: um, as somebody who kind of grew up isolated, um, and have, I have very tangible friendships with,

[01:10:13] [SPEAKER_01]: um, very few people, um, actually have more friendships with, with women than I do with men.

[01:10:19] [SPEAKER_01]: But, um, my, my, my male friendships are always rooted, I think in the very traditional male,

[01:10:26] [SPEAKER_01]: um, tropes, you know, I, you know, as we sit here today, I've got, you know, my favorite baseball team

[01:10:33] [SPEAKER_01]: is playing. So my three best friends, we met while writing about this baseball team. However,

[01:10:40] [SPEAKER_01]: from those friendships, one of those, um, friends has become a lot more tangible, but connective to,

[01:10:48] [SPEAKER_01]: you know, we connected along the entertainment. He likes a lot of the same shows that we talk about

[01:10:52] [SPEAKER_01]: here at podcastica. He works in the entertainment industry. Um, he loves music the way that I do.

[01:10:58] [SPEAKER_01]: So our conversations have moved from, from, you know, sports to this depth of where he,

[01:11:09] [SPEAKER_01]: I think that's probably very similar to a lot of the friendships that I have with my female friends.

[01:11:14] [SPEAKER_01]: Um, I don't think that that is something that, and I can't speak to other people,

[01:11:22] [SPEAKER_01]: so I'm not trying to say that this is true, but I think my closest friendships with males

[01:11:26] [SPEAKER_01]: always end up in the same place that you're, that the value that I put on my closest friends

[01:11:32] [SPEAKER_01]: has nothing to do with sports, has nothing to do with music, has nothing to do with entertainment,

[01:11:37] [SPEAKER_01]: has everything to do with really being in the present with them when we're with them. And,

[01:11:44] [SPEAKER_01]: you know, will I be there when he needs me? And will he be there when I need him?

[01:11:49] [SPEAKER_01]: In the same fashion, I think that all good friendships work in. I think that the difference

[01:11:53] [SPEAKER_01]: is, uh, growing up in a, in a world where multiple friendships for males is, is not something that

[01:12:03] [SPEAKER_01]: you see. It's again, that trope of male dominance and all that crap. Um, yeah. Men are sort of taught

[01:12:10] [SPEAKER_03]: that emotional stuff you should only share with your like romantic partner. And well, maybe I think

[01:12:18] [SPEAKER_03]: that's why a lot of men can have close friendships with women, but that their male friendships are

[01:12:24] [SPEAKER_03]: activity based. You do things together. And I think that it's a beautiful thing when men can push

[01:12:31] [SPEAKER_03]: through what the patriarchy has taught them and actually find that kind of support and love and

[01:12:38] [SPEAKER_03]: friendship from another man without worrying about what it looks like from the outside or whether or not

[01:12:44] [SPEAKER_03]: it's manly or any of that other stuff, because as close as you can be to a woman at a certain point,

[01:12:51] [SPEAKER_03]: you're going to want another man to talk to about stuff that you're going through. There's just some

[01:12:56] [SPEAKER_01]: things that we can't understand. Yeah. There's tangible things, you know, you know, as, as you go

[01:13:00] [SPEAKER_01]: through life with the partners that you go through and the friends that you go through, you know, there are

[01:13:05] [SPEAKER_01]: certain things that I am going to go through that I can talk about with a female because, you know,

[01:13:09] [SPEAKER_01]: obviously females can read books about things and can learn from other people, but it's obviously,

[01:13:15] [SPEAKER_01]: it's easier to talk to people that you've gone through, you've walked in the same shoes with,

[01:13:20] [SPEAKER_01]: you know, metaphorically kind of tying it back to the show. And I think, you know, me sitting here

[01:13:26] [SPEAKER_01]: saying like, I envy, you know, as I watched you guys in Galveston, like bonding together and I envied

[01:13:33] [SPEAKER_01]: that. And, you know, you watch the teen kind of in the mix of all this as well, you know, a male

[01:13:38] [SPEAKER_01]: in, in, in, in the mix of, of all of these females. And of course, you know, I, I, in the,

[01:13:44] [SPEAKER_01]: a certain crowd that watches this show will say, well, he's, you know, he's one of their kids. So maybe,

[01:13:50] [SPEAKER_01]: maybe that's why he's acting the way that he does, or of course he's gay. So maybe that's why he's

[01:13:54] [SPEAKER_01]: acting the way that he does. So he's not, he's not, he's not a male, right. But, but he,

[01:14:01] [SPEAKER_01]: you can tell how he wants to be in the coven. Yes. So in, in the parallel for me, like watching

[01:14:09] [SPEAKER_01]: you guys in Galveston is that parallel. Like I know that had I have been there, had I've been

[01:14:13] [SPEAKER_01]: staying in that house, I would have been doing everything in my power, like the teen to be

[01:14:17] [SPEAKER_01]: part of your coven. Like that would have just been who I am. And to a certain extent I could have fit

[01:14:22] [SPEAKER_01]: in, but to a certain extent, it would have been, but, but I, that's a question. That's a conversation

[01:14:27] [SPEAKER_01]: we could have offline, but. So, but like, so to tie it back to this. Yeah. And I think, I think as we

[01:14:32] [SPEAKER_01]: look at all of these characters, I think the one character who has made no effort on purpose to fit in

[01:14:41] [SPEAKER_01]: with these women is Agatha. And I mentioned last week, like how, when she moves, she moves like a

[01:14:49] [SPEAKER_01]: witch. And I know you noticed it in this episode because. Oh man. Was she whipping that coat around?

[01:14:55] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. Whipping the coat around. And there's that moment where she's talking about the potion and she

[01:15:00] [SPEAKER_01]: was moving her hands. And so I really paid attention to all of the other characters.

[01:15:05] [SPEAKER_01]: And what was interesting is she is the only one that does that. All of the other characters are

[01:15:12] [SPEAKER_01]: much more rooted in who they are and who these other people are. She's. Agatha's performing all the

[01:15:19] [SPEAKER_01]: time. Yes. Or. Except. It's. When teen was hurt. I think we saw real Agatha. Well, when teen was hurt

[01:15:27] [SPEAKER_01]: and that brief moment with Rio where they were about to kiss and she says, and maybe this is a good way

[01:15:35] [SPEAKER_01]: to wrap up our points. Yeah. She says, Agatha, the boy isn't yours. And Agatha. Yeah. And again.

[01:15:45] [SPEAKER_01]: Boom. Boom. Like. The walls go up. Goes right up and she just turns and walks away. And of course,

[01:15:52] [SPEAKER_01]: who, well, what does that mean? Yeah. And that's the end of the episode. I was like, what? Are you

[01:15:59] [SPEAKER_03]: kidding me? Such a great ending. And I agree. That's a nice place for us to wrap up our main discussion

[01:16:05] [SPEAKER_03]: because this episode, I have a feeling I'm going to go back to it several times. I think,

[01:16:13] [SPEAKER_03]: I think the first three episodes were a lot of world building, introducing the road, introducing

[01:16:20] [SPEAKER_03]: the characters, introducing the trials, giving us the stakes, killing Sharon was like, see, this is

[01:16:26] [SPEAKER_03]: real. People can get killed. This episode was when we really started getting into the meat of who these

[01:16:32] [SPEAKER_03]: people are like really rich. And I am dying to watch episode five. I cannot wait. I'm so excited.

[01:16:38] [SPEAKER_01]: Do you have a favorite character? Oh, it changes constantly. Yeah. I, the teen was my favorite

[01:16:48] [SPEAKER_01]: right out of the gate. I really enjoy his character, his wonder, his very prototypical at times,

[01:16:58] [SPEAKER_01]: naive. I'm the one here that really doesn't get what's going on, but I can do some things,

[01:17:04] [SPEAKER_01]: which always, yeah. Yeah. He, I, he plays that so well. I don't, again, you, you know,

[01:17:12] [SPEAKER_01]: I think there's more up to him than meets the eye. So when we get that step, whatever direction we go,

[01:17:17] [SPEAKER_03]: oh, I can't wait. Yeah. I, I mean, Agatha, I guess is my favorite character, but like,

[01:17:23] [SPEAKER_03]: they all have different ways that they appeal to me. And I mean, Rio is fascinating.

[01:17:34] [SPEAKER_03]: And I, I love Jen. I want to like hang out with Jen. I feel like she and I could be friends.

[01:17:42] [SPEAKER_03]: And Alice is just so cool. Alice is the friend that I've always wanted to like me.

[01:17:48] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. You want, and she's too busy in with her own garbage to even notice that other people want

[01:17:53] [SPEAKER_03]: to be her friend. Like you think she's rejecting you, but she didn't even notice that you were

[01:17:57] [SPEAKER_03]: interested. Yeah. Lilia, I don't feel like I would connect with Lilia in real life, but

[01:18:04] [SPEAKER_03]: she kind of reminds me of some people that I know in a good way.

[01:18:12] [SPEAKER_01]: So when we meet Lilia at the beginning,

[01:18:16] [SPEAKER_01]: that's the Lilia we would know. And that's not a Lilia I think that any one of us would like.

[01:18:22] [SPEAKER_01]: So she, how her character all comes together. I just love Patti LuPone so much.

[01:18:31] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[01:18:31] [SPEAKER_01]: She is not my favorite character at this moment, but she had next to Catherine Han. I just,

[01:18:37] [SPEAKER_01]: Catherine Han, how she is overstepping her performance in WandaVision is beyond me. Of

[01:18:41] [SPEAKER_01]: course she's the, you know, the centerpiece of the show, but I just, this episode to get

[01:18:47] [SPEAKER_01]: right down to it, like her performance in this episode was just utter brilliance. It, it,

[01:18:54] [SPEAKER_01]: it's hard to do what she did in this episode and she did it many times and did it with such

[01:19:00] [SPEAKER_01]: cheese where, I mean, I don't know how, I don't know how Catherine Han ever finds a role this tasty,

[01:19:07] [SPEAKER_01]: but I hope that what comes from this, if it's not in the MCU is movies that I remember her being in,

[01:19:16] [SPEAKER_01]: because if I could tell you, I went to Goodwill and found about 10 movies that she was in that I had no

[01:19:21] [SPEAKER_01]: idea that she was in and I bought them all for a Catherine Han view-a-thon. But I hope,

[01:19:27] [SPEAKER_01]: I hope this is a launch for her, you know, as she, she just turned 50, which is in many ways,

[01:19:32] [SPEAKER_01]: like when actresses careers can grind to a halt where I really feel like this is just the beginning

[01:19:38] [SPEAKER_01]: of what I hope to be a long, long road of, of starring roles.

[01:19:44] [SPEAKER_03]: She's owning every moment she's on screen. She's, I hate this phrase. I can't believe I'm going to

[01:19:52] [SPEAKER_03]: say it, but it's like a tour de force. Yes. Right. It's like, um, she's, she's exhibiting so

[01:19:58] [SPEAKER_03]: many talents in this show and, and, and really making a mark and, and, you know, from what little I

[01:20:06] [SPEAKER_03]: have read, I, I've, I stayed off the internet this week because of spoilers, but, um, I think the show

[01:20:13] [SPEAKER_03]: is being better received than Marvel hope. Like it's getting good ratings. It's on the top of the

[01:20:20] [SPEAKER_03]: Disney charts. It's number one all the time. The music is on the charts. Like they are, the show is

[01:20:27] [SPEAKER_03]: kicking hiney for lack of a better word. And, um, finally, finally, Penny.

[01:20:36] [SPEAKER_03]: Finally, you had to do what I always have to do. Yeah. And the fact that it's led by like a bunch

[01:20:42] [SPEAKER_03]: of women who are not 20 years old, it makes me so happy. I feel so empowered by this cast.

[01:20:49] [SPEAKER_01]: Wow. I, and honestly never occurred to me until you just said that. Yeah. This is a mature.

[01:20:54] [SPEAKER_03]: None of them is like skimpy dressed. Like some of those rock outfits were pretty sexy, but like,

[01:21:00] [SPEAKER_03]: I didn't feel like they were exploitative. I didn't feel like they were, you know, marketing their bodies

[01:21:05] [SPEAKER_03]: in order to get viewers. It, it's all rich character work. None of these actors has been

[01:21:11] [SPEAKER_03]: given garbage to do, right? They're like, all these characters are interesting and rich

[01:21:17] [SPEAKER_03]: and layered and real roles. The kind of roles that women actresses have been asking for,

[01:21:24] [SPEAKER_03]: for decades, right? They've been like, we don't want to just be the love interest. We don't want

[01:21:28] [SPEAKER_03]: to be the trophy at the end of the story. We want to be main characters. And here we have it.

[01:21:32] [SPEAKER_03]: This is like everything I've ever asked for from TV.

[01:21:38] [SPEAKER_01]: And, and good on Marvel for sticking with our guns and putting it out there.

[01:21:45] [SPEAKER_01]: I was concerned. They certainly didn't market this movie the way they've marked or this show,

[01:21:50] [SPEAKER_01]: the way they've marketed a lot of their shows in the past. I, it scared me. Uh, I was very fearful

[01:21:57] [SPEAKER_01]: that they weren't marketing it for a reason. Um, never did. I think it wasn't because it could be good,

[01:22:02] [SPEAKER_01]: but I was fearful that they just were giving up on it the way it felt like they gave up on echo.

[01:22:09] [SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, when you're trying to sell a show based on, you know, Vincent D'Onofrio being in it,

[01:22:15] [SPEAKER_01]: and he's not even the star and, and, you know, Charlie Cox being in it as a return of their

[01:22:19] [SPEAKER_01]: characters, that's, you know, not pushing it. So my fear was that they were being quiet because of

[01:22:23] [SPEAKER_01]: that. But what turns out to have, I, I honestly think that they were, they were standing as far back as

[01:22:29] [SPEAKER_01]: they possibly could with their fingers crossed knowing that this show.

[01:22:34] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. And being like, let's let quality talk, like speak for itself and let's let word of mouth do

[01:22:40] [SPEAKER_03]: what it did for WandaVision, frankly. Yeah.

[01:22:42] [SPEAKER_03]: WandaVision at first people were like, I don't know what, huh? And then people started talking to

[01:22:47] [SPEAKER_03]: each other and then all of a sudden it was, everybody was talking about it.

[01:22:50] [SPEAKER_03]: What makes this. And I think that's happening again.

[01:22:52] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, for sure. I think what makes this even more special though is, is WandaVision had the unique,

[01:23:01] [SPEAKER_01]: it's always going to be the first Disney plus Marvel show. So you immediately were going to get

[01:23:09] [SPEAKER_01]: a bunch of people. Just curiosity viewers.

[01:23:12] [SPEAKER_01]: Because of that. So they, the cool thing about that show is that they really had to do something

[01:23:17] [SPEAKER_01]: in that first episode that caught people's attention and they did. They, they created a show

[01:23:23] [SPEAKER_01]: based on other shows that went way beyond those other shows. It was such a beautifully well done

[01:23:29] [SPEAKER_01]: show that Jack Schaefer of course was massively involved in. This show is coming off of series

[01:23:35] [SPEAKER_01]: of misses through Marvel where many people are questioning whether the MCU is, is legit anymore,

[01:23:42] [SPEAKER_01]: whether or not Disney plus even wanted to be in the TV business with Marvel, even though they redid them,

[01:23:48] [SPEAKER_01]: the television division and put Feige back at the head of that. I would just say this. Um,

[01:23:53] [SPEAKER_01]: if, if this was planned, if they kind of knew this was going to happen, then Marvel's in good shape for

[01:24:01] [SPEAKER_01]: years to come because it it's overcome all of that. And then some, they figured out a way to put out

[01:24:07] [SPEAKER_01]: TV show without having to throw hundreds of millions of dollars at it. And they realize, Hey,

[01:24:12] [SPEAKER_01]: we can hire good quality actresses. We can hire good quality actors. Excuse me for using the

[01:24:19] [SPEAKER_01]: actress term, but, and we can really exploit. No, that's a horrible way to say this. We can really

[01:24:27] [SPEAKER_01]: galvanize people to watch just good quality television. Um, truthfully, um, this does lead

[01:24:34] [SPEAKER_01]: a little bit into our news because we, um, the first article that, that you found Penny was this

[01:24:42] [SPEAKER_01]: interview with, with, with Jack Schaefer called, um, it's from Hollywood reporter and it's called

[01:24:48] [SPEAKER_01]: Agatha all along boss. Jack Schaefer talks episode four is reveal in Mephisto that is larger than me in

[01:24:54] [SPEAKER_01]: the show. And to be quite honest with you, the Mephisto part of this article was the least interesting part of

[01:25:01] [SPEAKER_01]: it. What I loved about this article was, uh, I mean, there's so much, there's so much about what

[01:25:11] [SPEAKER_01]: Jack Schaefer says in this article, but the main thing to me is they asked her about the interconnectivity

[01:25:16] [SPEAKER_01]: of the MCU and whether that was cause they talked about Mephisto specifically being mentioned.

[01:25:24] [SPEAKER_01]: And, and did she feel the weight of the interconnectivity of the MCU? And, um, her response

[01:25:31] [SPEAKER_01]: to that was so brilliant because she basically, um, in a very Agatha way sort of said, I don't really

[01:25:39] [SPEAKER_01]: care about that. Like I didn't worry about that at all. Um, she basically said everything that we've

[01:25:46] [SPEAKER_01]: been saying from episode one, that this was not about the interconnectivity of the MCU at all.

[01:25:51] [SPEAKER_01]: She did and said the things that Kevin Feige wanted her to do, but he let her do it the way

[01:25:57] [SPEAKER_03]: she wanted to. And it seems like she was given like, here are the points we need you to hit.

[01:26:06] [SPEAKER_03]: And it was a light touch. It was like, here's, and it wasn't a lot of points. It was like,

[01:26:10] [SPEAKER_03]: here's a few little things we need to have you include donuts. And she just did. She, she like,

[01:26:18] [SPEAKER_03]: and she talked a little bit about how having a little structure within which to work is freeing

[01:26:26] [SPEAKER_03]: sometimes for an artist as opposed to having like a complete blank slate. So somehow having the MCU

[01:26:32] [SPEAKER_03]: as a backdrop for a story gives you just enough rules to follow that you don't get lost.

[01:26:39] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes. Yes. Um, I don't know. I, I just, I think that it's a great article. We should,

[01:26:45] [SPEAKER_01]: we'll link the whole thing. Yeah. We'll link the whole thing. I, you know, for, for those of you

[01:26:49] [SPEAKER_01]: that don't know anything about Jack Schaefer, I think this is a great way for you to kind of dip

[01:26:54] [SPEAKER_01]: your toes into it. And I, the other thing, you know, while she is the show runner and she's written

[01:27:00] [SPEAKER_01]: a lot of it, I think that the fact that she has, what I didn't know is that she hasn't directed since

[01:27:07] [SPEAKER_01]: she was 30, she's 45 now. It's been 15 years since she's directed, but she felt so connected to this

[01:27:14] [SPEAKER_01]: series that, I mean, according to her, she quit vision quest because of this series. I think there's

[01:27:22] [SPEAKER_01]: more to it than that, but I can buy that she was so interconnected to this series that she said no to

[01:27:27] [SPEAKER_01]: anything that would even bump into it. Um, but she was so connected that she had to direct and

[01:27:33] [SPEAKER_01]: she's directed three episodes throughout the nine episode art, which again shows you just how,

[01:27:42] [SPEAKER_01]: how interrelated that she is with all of these characters and with the story.

[01:27:46] [SPEAKER_01]: Now I think there's more to it than meets the eye. I think there's, I think, I think there's,

[01:27:51] [SPEAKER_01]: I think there is something else she's working on in the MCU. I'm not going to talk about it right now,

[01:27:55] [SPEAKER_01]: but we can get that, get to that. I want to see how the series plays out before I talk about what

[01:28:00] [SPEAKER_01]: I think is next, because I don't know any spoilers of course, but I do think that, that there is

[01:28:06] [SPEAKER_01]: something else that maybe she's eyeballing dependent on how the series goes. Yeah. She's not done.

[01:28:13] [SPEAKER_03]: I, I did like that she put that rumor to rest though, that she didn't, she's not working on vision

[01:28:20] [SPEAKER_03]: quest because she doesn't believe in it or something. I don't think that's the reason at

[01:28:24] [SPEAKER_03]: all from, from what she said. It's, I think she's finishing up this show. And then I agree with you

[01:28:32] [SPEAKER_03]: that there's something already in the works. She's so good. She's had such huge success with the MCU.

[01:28:39] [SPEAKER_03]: There's no way MCU is going to be like, all right, bye. We're done with you. Like, no,

[01:28:42] [SPEAKER_03]: they're holding onto her. She's a huge talent and, um, uh, people other, like the actors all love

[01:28:52] [SPEAKER_03]: working with her. Like everybody seems to like, it's all like lovey dovey over there at Agatha all

[01:28:58] [SPEAKER_03]: along. So I listened to a really great interview with Catherine Hahn on, um, the armchair expert

[01:29:04] [SPEAKER_03]: podcast with Dax Shepard. Yeah. I listened to that. Yeah. And she, the way she talked about this cast

[01:29:10] [SPEAKER_03]: and how they all bonded and, and the production made me think that as much as we're enjoying

[01:29:15] [SPEAKER_01]: watching it, they enjoy making it. And that's, you know, we talk about podcastica a lot because of

[01:29:24] [SPEAKER_01]: course we're, that's what we're part of this brand. The thing that makes, you talked about the,

[01:29:28] [SPEAKER_01]: the trip to Galveston that many of you took and just the discourse that we have throughout the day.

[01:29:34] [SPEAKER_01]: As I sit here and watch my Facebook, I can see my Facebook just lighting up with,

[01:29:39] [SPEAKER_01]: with so many of our friends posting stuff about so many different things, which is,

[01:29:43] [SPEAKER_01]: I can't wait to, to finish watching episode five so that I can see what everybody's talking about. But,

[01:29:48] [SPEAKER_01]: um, I just, um, the, the best people at what, you know, there's a reason why the best directors

[01:29:55] [SPEAKER_01]: in the world use the same people over and over again. It's because you create a culture and then you

[01:30:00] [SPEAKER_01]: can save time by bringing that culture back in. And, um, I, every interview that you see,

[01:30:08] [SPEAKER_01]: like you can get on and see all of those hot ones videos with a lot of different partnerships where

[01:30:13] [SPEAKER_01]: they're doing the hot ones battle or they're doing the, they're doing the, uh, Google search

[01:30:18] [SPEAKER_01]: thing together. And you can see like the characters, like Pedro Pascal basically just meshes with

[01:30:23] [SPEAKER_01]: everybody. But if you watch all of the interactions with this cast, there's no pain at all. Uh,

[01:30:30] [SPEAKER_01]: sometimes you'll watch like the stranger things cast and you'll get kind of that sense. But every

[01:30:34] [SPEAKER_01]: once in a while, you'll see two of them together and you'll be like, I don't think they like each

[01:30:38] [SPEAKER_01]: other very much. This cast seems all of them. Like they're a real coven. Like they've, like

[01:30:45] [SPEAKER_01]: they've really bonded. Oh, you know, they're a real coven. You know, you know, they've got a name

[01:30:51] [SPEAKER_01]: for it and you know, they meet somewhere here and there. Uh, but yeah, yeah. There's a joy in the

[01:30:57] [SPEAKER_03]: culture that Jack Schaefer has created. There's been a lot of articles that have come out about

[01:31:05] [SPEAKER_03]: toxic work environments and lost is one that's used as an example, a lot that, that life, you

[01:31:12] [SPEAKER_03]: know, they were all kind of isolated. They're all living in Hawaii together, making the show

[01:31:16] [SPEAKER_03]: and that it was not a pleasant experience for a lot of people. And it doesn't have to be that way.

[01:31:21] [SPEAKER_03]: I've worked in places that were wonderful and places that were horrible. And there are some

[01:31:27] [SPEAKER_03]: kinds of people in the world that think like a mean working environment is by its nature better

[01:31:33] [SPEAKER_03]: because you're like pushing people to be better, but it's not true. A loving and supportive work

[01:31:40] [SPEAKER_03]: environment can create brilliance and it doesn't have to be mean. And I think the myth that like

[01:31:47] [SPEAKER_03]: mean is excellent has to die. I'm tired of that myth. I hate that myth.

[01:31:52] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I, I just, uh, I definitely, the second article you have is the one I'm most curious about,

[01:32:00] [SPEAKER_01]: but I, I want to read this. This is that part I was telling you about, which kind of lens tells you

[01:32:05] [SPEAKER_01]: like how Jack Schaefer loves this story way more than anything. The MCU could provide her. The question

[01:32:11] [SPEAKER_01]: was teen was also on the receiving end of John or Jen Kale's agent of Mephisto line. And I found that

[01:32:17] [SPEAKER_01]: interesting because you once told me that you weren't really interested in him during our Wanda

[01:32:22] [SPEAKER_01]: vision finale talk that said, given all the Mephisto theories, I get why you'd feel that way at the

[01:32:27] [SPEAKER_01]: specific, this specific moment in time. Anyway, since some writers actively bristle against fan service,

[01:32:34] [SPEAKER_01]: did you need some convincing to finally go there in some capacity? A question, I think I love the

[01:32:41] [SPEAKER_01]: question because there's more depth to it than usual, but this is a usual question that showrunners

[01:32:45] [SPEAKER_01]: get her reply was, I wouldn't say that I needed convincing. It was a conversation with executive

[01:32:53] [SPEAKER_01]: producer, Mary Lovanos, Brad and Kevin, Kevin Feige. But it is a mention that is larger than me

[01:33:00] [SPEAKER_01]: and the show. It is the larger Marvelness of it. So it's not about me bristling or having any kind

[01:33:06] [SPEAKER_01]: of reaction or agenda, mostly because that type of fever discourse that is very, very rooted in the

[01:33:12] [SPEAKER_01]: comics is not as interesting to me as the current story being told in the series at hand. And I mean,

[01:33:21] [SPEAKER_01]: you couldn't answer that any better because she owns to the fact that the producers of the MCU and Kevin

[01:33:29] [SPEAKER_01]: Feige need her to do it. And she did it. It doesn't really care because it has nothing to do with her

[01:33:36] [SPEAKER_01]: story. She can say it within the confines of the story that she's telling, but the culture that she's

[01:33:42] [SPEAKER_01]: created and the story that she's telling is always going to be more important than the connective pieces,

[01:33:48] [SPEAKER_01]: which is why Wanda vision meant so much to so many people, which is why we always want to know what

[01:33:54] [SPEAKER_01]: happened to, um, the white vision that took off and disappeared, which is why vision quest is going

[01:34:01] [SPEAKER_01]: to be so interconnected. Jack Schaefer in the same article talks about how special an actor, um,

[01:34:08] [SPEAKER_01]: what's his name? Paul, Paul Bettany is she, she just gets the people that she works with. Um, she's

[01:34:16] [SPEAKER_01]: telling a great story about great females, but you know, if you put her in front of the cast of vision

[01:34:21] [SPEAKER_01]: quest, whoever is there, you know, that she's going to make that show special because she cares about

[01:34:28] [SPEAKER_01]: what she's doing. She cares about the actors that she works with and she works with actors that she

[01:34:32] [SPEAKER_01]: cares about. So anyways, we went way too long on that news piece, but this is such a great article.

[01:34:36] [SPEAKER_01]: Make sure you click the link in the notes. Um, and, and you will get as much joy out of it as we did.

[01:34:43] [SPEAKER_03]: Uh, the second article that we have is, is it's a really long article and it will put it in the

[01:34:48] [SPEAKER_03]: show notes. It's really worth reading if you're the kind of person that I am and you love the costume

[01:34:54] [SPEAKER_03]: making and the costume design. What I got out of it was, uh, the level of detail that went into some

[01:35:01] [SPEAKER_03]: of the costumes and the fact that apparently if you can see the costumes up close, the full story

[01:35:08] [SPEAKER_03]: is in the details. So for example, uh, Agatha's long coat that has, it's, it sort of flares out at the

[01:35:17] [SPEAKER_03]: bottom. They wanted her to have a skirt, but be mobile. So they came up with this tailored top

[01:35:25] [SPEAKER_03]: flared bottom design, which allows her to be very dramatic in her swishing around throwback to Shogun

[01:35:32] [SPEAKER_03]: where Mariko Sama showed us how to swish around in a kimono in a way that makes other people feel

[01:35:39] [SPEAKER_03]: inferior to you. Uh, but the lining of the coat, so the exterior of the coat is blue. The lining is

[01:35:45] [SPEAKER_03]: purple and the lining has all this embroidery on it with symbols and images that tell the story of

[01:35:53] [SPEAKER_03]: what's going on in this series. And now I like pause my TV whenever there's a scene where you can see

[01:36:01] [SPEAKER_03]: any of the lining to try to get a look at what those symbols are. And I can only hope that some

[01:36:08] [SPEAKER_03]: point they will go on tour or something. So we can see these costumes up close. Uh, the, um,

[01:36:14] [SPEAKER_01]: I also mentioned that she, Catherine Hahn did have a, a direct hand in her costumes.

[01:36:20] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. She, it was a collaborative effort with, with the performers to create the costumes for

[01:36:26] [SPEAKER_03]: their characters. The, um, the necklace that Jen wears, that's multiple chains symbolizes that she's

[01:36:33] [SPEAKER_03]: bound. She's chained up by those chains, right? Like, of course, that's been driving me nuts. Yes.

[01:36:41] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. Okay. And, uh, Alice's costume is pretty straightforward because she has all those like

[01:36:46] [SPEAKER_03]: good luck charms and amulets and things that we know that her mother gave her to try to protect

[01:36:51] [SPEAKER_03]: her from this curse. And she also wears a lot of like leather kind of hard edge. She's got that,

[01:36:56] [SPEAKER_03]: like I've been around rock and roll my whole life. Look, that's pretty straightforward. And, uh, Lilia,

[01:37:03] [SPEAKER_03]: um, there's like tarot card symbols, like embroidered into the collar and stuff. Like it's

[01:37:09] [SPEAKER_03]: up close. You can see her story in her outfit as well. And the, the costume designer talks about all

[01:37:16] [SPEAKER_03]: of the characters and what went into their costumes. Like, um, teen, the sweater that he wears is meant

[01:37:22] [SPEAKER_03]: to be something that he made himself because he's the kind of person who goes from hobby to hobby to

[01:37:27] [SPEAKER_03]: hobby. So at one point knitting was his hobby and he made himself a sweater. And I just love that there's

[01:37:33] [SPEAKER_03]: all this history and detail in the costumes. And I love when, when I see that, I know that that level

[01:37:41] [SPEAKER_03]: of care and design and intention went into all the different levels of the show. And that's lends

[01:37:50] [SPEAKER_03]: itself to why the show is having such an emotional impact on us because that is not just visible to

[01:37:56] [SPEAKER_03]: us in some places, but the actors are living in those costumes and they're feeling that history and

[01:38:04] [SPEAKER_03]: those details. And that brings out more of their performance and the sets and the lighting and the

[01:38:10] [SPEAKER_03]: music, all of it is being given this intentionality, which we learned about in this show is that

[01:38:16] [SPEAKER_03]: intentionality is a big part of witchcraft, right? And they call movie making and TV making Hollywood

[01:38:22] [SPEAKER_03]: magic for a reason. Is it supernatural magic? No, but does intentionality create a magical effect?

[01:38:32] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes. Well, I, so I, the article will be in the show.

[01:38:37] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. I, just to kind of wrap that all up is you're sitting here saying that,

[01:38:42] [SPEAKER_01]: and I was kind of scrolling through the article and I noticed Rios. She had the, the green witch

[01:38:48] [SPEAKER_01]: outfit that she wears at the beginning of this episode when she comes breaking through the ground.

[01:38:52] [SPEAKER_01]: She definitely has something on different at the end. And I'm, I'm, I actually, I'm not even going to

[01:38:59] [SPEAKER_01]: talk about it because if you're listening to this, just go back and watch the last like 15 minutes of

[01:39:06] [SPEAKER_01]: the episode when it's worth watching again, but look at what she's, oh my gosh.

[01:39:12] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. It's cool. Right. Well, because you want to talk about costumes telling a story and we were

[01:39:18] [SPEAKER_01]: talking about Rio possibly being death and correct me if I'm wrong, but does she not have a black

[01:39:27] [SPEAKER_03]: outfit on at the end with a hood? It's, it's black and green and yeah, there's a hood.

[01:39:34] [SPEAKER_03]: Oh my God. So I think she could be death related.

[01:39:40] [SPEAKER_03]: Alrighty then. Oh gosh.

[01:39:45] [SPEAKER_03]: All right. So, um, we got answers to the witchy question of the week, but they're sort of merged

[01:39:51] [SPEAKER_03]: into people's feedback. So, um, we're not going to try to separate that out, but I did want to show

[01:39:57] [SPEAKER_03]: Jim. I'm sorry listeners that you can't see this. Um, I have many things that I count as lucky charms

[01:40:04] [SPEAKER_03]: in my life. Uh, notably I had a Boston Red Sox hat that my brother gave me that got me through every

[01:40:10] [SPEAKER_03]: law school exam and the bar exam and then disappeared. I have no idea where it was, where it has gone.

[01:40:16] [SPEAKER_03]: And I'm like, well, it served its purpose. That was my, I got through the bar exam. I passed the bar

[01:40:22] [SPEAKER_03]: exam on the first try. In fact, I passed two on the first try. So, um, that was my lucky charm. Um,

[01:40:28] [SPEAKER_03]: when I saw WandaVision and when I podcasted about She-Hulk and I first talked to Jason about wanting

[01:40:36] [SPEAKER_03]: to do the Agatha Harkness show, I bought the Agatha Harkness action figure. And here she is.

[01:40:43] [SPEAKER_03]: This is from WandaVision. This isn't, um, from this show. So the outfit is a little bit different,

[01:40:50] [SPEAKER_03]: but, um, she's pretty cool. And I have a whole collection of, of witches. I have like a couple

[01:40:56] [SPEAKER_03]: of Willow Rosenbergs as well. And of course I have our own Wanda Maximoff here, Scarlet Witch.

[01:41:02] [SPEAKER_03]: Will we ever see her again? Um, both of these action figures, by the way, are victims of their wardrobe

[01:41:09] [SPEAKER_03]: because although the action figure is fully bendable and posable, their outfits are these long stiff

[01:41:17] [SPEAKER_03]: skirts. And so you can't actually make Wanda sit because her skirt doesn't bend even though her legs

[01:41:23] [SPEAKER_03]: do. And Agatha's skirt is even more obstructive. So I'm hoping that a future Agatha action figure

[01:41:32] [SPEAKER_03]: will be able to be more poseable because these are a little limited. Well, I love that you have

[01:41:40] [SPEAKER_01]: hats. Hats are my life. Um, well, so the thing that, um, I've probably had most in my life or,

[01:41:50] [SPEAKER_01]: you know, so I golf a lot. Um, I don't so much anymore, but all the meaningful people in my life

[01:41:56] [SPEAKER_01]: I've golfed with and, um, uh, way back when me and my best friend used to golf a lot and he bought me

[01:42:02] [SPEAKER_01]: this putter that I, I still have. It's this putter right here, but you can't see it if you're listening

[01:42:08] [SPEAKER_01]: to podcast, but it's an odyssey putter. But what came with it was this little token and it's a

[01:42:13] [SPEAKER_01]: token that you're supposed to use as a ball mark, but I, it's too big. Like you can't say you look

[01:42:18] [SPEAKER_01]: like an idiot if you set it down on the green. Um, but I remember from the second that I got it,

[01:42:23] [SPEAKER_01]: I loved, I loved it because a, it was given to me by my friend. Um, it was his before it was mine.

[01:42:31] [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, and he said, he, I just remember him saying kind of offhandedly and he said, don't lose that.

[01:42:35] [SPEAKER_01]: And I said, why? And he said, just don't lose it. And I always thought to myself,

[01:42:40] [SPEAKER_01]: gosh, that means something. Um, I always ask him, I'm like, did you mean something by that? And he's

[01:42:45] [SPEAKER_01]: like, you didn't keep that, did you? And I'm like, yeah. And I always pull it out. I always have it

[01:42:48] [SPEAKER_01]: sitting next to my phone. I would have it sitting next to my bed. Um, but this token is something

[01:42:53] [SPEAKER_01]: that I have, but hats for me, hold on a sec. Hats to me have always been my thing. And, um, I have,

[01:43:00] [SPEAKER_01]: you know, while this show was being recorded, my Cleveland guardians were playing and I only wear,

[01:43:06] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't wear hats anymore, but, uh, I only wear this hat when they play. Uh, it's my good luck

[01:43:12] [SPEAKER_01]: charm. Um, I shark fin and I do all of the things that you normally do, but if I ran through the

[01:43:16] [SPEAKER_01]: amount of good luck token hats that I have, Oh my goodness. It's a huge stack. You guys would be,

[01:43:23] [SPEAKER_01]: and they all mean something to me. And I always wear them with certain friends that I go out with,

[01:43:29] [SPEAKER_01]: or I just will throw them in my car. Um, my favorite, favorite hat right now is sitting in my car

[01:43:35] [SPEAKER_01]: because it's been a hard few weeks. Uh, and I just needed it there. It's kind of my safety. Like if you

[01:43:42] [SPEAKER_01]: remember Mr. Mom from back in the day, it was, it's my whoopee. That hat is my whoopee. I've had that.

[01:43:49] [SPEAKER_01]: It's a crooked seat Cleveland, uh, but at the time Cleveland Indians hat, much more appropriate

[01:43:54] [SPEAKER_01]: Cleveland guardians hat that I've had since probably the early nineties and it's beat up

[01:44:01] [SPEAKER_01]: and it has not disappeared yet. So I'm thankful for that. Um, but see, see that penny we have,

[01:44:08] [SPEAKER_03]: we have tokens that are very similar. Yeah, we do. Let's get into some listener feedback.

[01:44:15] [SPEAKER_03]: We got a few things this week. Uh, you want to read that first one from Danielle?

[01:44:19] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm Danielle Dement-Jouced. I love this episode. The costumes and set pieces were beautiful

[01:44:26] [SPEAKER_01]: and the story was moving. Well, wait till you listen to this podcast. We talked about that very

[01:44:30] [SPEAKER_01]: thing. Uh, I'm really starting to feel for Agatha. Clearly she has a tough, I don't give a facade,

[01:44:39] [SPEAKER_01]: but we're starting to see through it. I'm really excited for the next episode. So am I.

[01:44:45] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. Thanks Danielle. Megan O'Connell says, I freaking love this show and I am not a Marvel

[01:44:53] [SPEAKER_03]: fan in general. Did not watch WandaVision, barely seen any of the main movies. So this podcast helped

[01:44:59] [SPEAKER_03]: me so much when I was a tad confused by the first episode. Yay. That's why we did that. Okay. Thank

[01:45:05] [SPEAKER_03]: you for doing that for me. I'm really enjoying this journey down, down the road. I'm so glad Megan,

[01:45:12] [SPEAKER_03]: because I love that. I think the show is accessible to anyone. You don't need to be a Marvel fan to like

[01:45:18] [SPEAKER_01]: it. I, well, yeah, it helps. And I hope that Marvel keeps that in mind, at least in the television

[01:45:31] [SPEAKER_01]: universe, you can put out a great show that somewhat has connectivity to it, but just make a

[01:45:37] [SPEAKER_01]: really good journey. You know, no, no puns intended. Oh, we got an email. Yeah. It came in like,

[01:45:48] [SPEAKER_03]: like five minutes before we started recording. Hey, see, we waited a little bit extra and it paid

[01:45:52] [SPEAKER_01]: off. Jody in Australia. Oh, this would sound so much better if you would have called in.

[01:45:58] [SPEAKER_01]: Hi, Jim and Penny. I've just finished listening to your coverage of episode three and I'm loving it.

[01:46:03] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm also loving the show, which I didn't expect. I'm only listening because I love Catherine Han and

[01:46:09] [SPEAKER_01]: will watch anything she's in, but it's just such a great show and I'm really loving it.

[01:46:13] [SPEAKER_01]: I thought it would be annoyingly witchy and fake with witches blasting each other with their powers,

[01:46:18] [SPEAKER_01]: which I find kind of boring after a while, but the way they're doing the road and the performances

[01:46:23] [SPEAKER_01]: and the shows they are choosing to parody are just incredible. To answer the question of the week,

[01:46:29] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't have a lucky charm per se, but I do have a parking ferry. Anytime I park, I always get a

[01:46:34] [SPEAKER_01]: great park, whether it's in a crowded parking lot or I'm just feeling lazy and want to park right out,

[01:46:39] [SPEAKER_01]: right out front from wherever I'm going. My parking ferry has my back. Literally everyone I know

[01:46:46] [SPEAKER_01]: thinks I'm weird for this and then they need to come somewhere with me and see it in action.

[01:46:50] [SPEAKER_01]: It's a small thing, but it always makes me feel like I'm winning it.

[01:46:55] [SPEAKER_01]: I do not have a parking ferry. Loving the podcast guys. Thanks for everything you do. Best Jody.

[01:47:03] [SPEAKER_03]: I never call it a parking ferry. I say that I have excellent parking karma. I tend to be able to find

[01:47:12] [SPEAKER_03]: a spot pretty close to the entrance of wherever I'm going often at the last minute. This is a

[01:47:20] [SPEAKER_03]: relatively recent phenomenon in my life. In the last 10 years, I have great parking karma. I never

[01:47:26] [SPEAKER_03]: used to. I did something and maybe it's a ferry. Somebody's looking out for me now when it comes to

[01:47:32] [SPEAKER_01]: parking. Jody, you and I have that in common. Well, maybe by you saying it out loud, it will rub

[01:47:37] [SPEAKER_01]: off on me because I always end up parking two miles away and it's very frustrating.

[01:47:41] [SPEAKER_03]: That is frustrating. We did get one voicemail from friend of the podcast, Greg.

[01:47:49] [SPEAKER_00]: Hello, Penny and Jim. This is Greg. I just wanted to call in about episode four of Agatha all along.

[01:47:56] [SPEAKER_00]: Um, so I have to admit, uh, like I'm really, really digging the, Hey, we're all on a quest and we have

[01:48:06] [SPEAKER_00]: individual trials to face. And it, it seems very play like, um, and one of the cool things about

[01:48:14] [SPEAKER_00]: that formula and formulas in general is that their formulas because they work, um, between, um, you know,

[01:48:24] [SPEAKER_00]: the, the setup episode of episode one and then the gathering of the coven episode two and then the

[01:48:30] [SPEAKER_00]: first trial and then the second trial, like I'm really, really loving the pacing. And it seems like

[01:48:37] [SPEAKER_00]: we not only get a little bit more background in each one, it's almost like a monster of the week,

[01:48:42] [SPEAKER_00]: right? It's like, Hey, we have to do X or go retrieve Y or whatever. But in the process, you're slowly

[01:48:51] [SPEAKER_00]: revealing, pulling the, uh, pulling the curtain back on, uh, the history behind the characters. And

[01:48:58] [SPEAKER_00]: I really like how they're weaving the history of the characters into the story itself. Um, uh,

[01:49:05] [SPEAKER_00]: I do not want to be sexist. However, holy bejes, uh, between Aubrey Plaza and Catherine Hans,

[01:49:14] [SPEAKER_00]: uh, sixties rock concert get up. Uh, Oh my gosh. Good golly. It's all right. So I'm, I'm done with that.

[01:49:27] [SPEAKER_00]: Uh, even though it will never get out of my head. Um, so yeah, I, I, I've liked that. I'm really

[01:49:34] [SPEAKER_00]: enjoying it. I really had a lot of fun with last episode with episode three. Uh, and you guys made

[01:49:40] [SPEAKER_00]: some really good points. You guys are way, or well, Jim, you're way more suspicious of teen than I am.

[01:49:45] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm just watching it. I'm just like, Oh golly, you know, Ms. Sharon died. And I, I think that it is

[01:49:52] [SPEAKER_00]: a defense mechanism so that I don't get spoiled or spoil myself by having ideas. I don't know what

[01:49:59] [SPEAKER_00]: that says about me that I don't want to be creative in order to not potentially ruin ideas from us.

[01:50:06] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know. Anyway, uh, looking forward to hearing you guys' coverage and, uh, I will, uh,

[01:50:14] [SPEAKER_03]: cut it here. Thanks. Bye. Thanks, Greg. Uh, if you, if this is your first podcast,

[01:50:20] [SPEAKER_03]: a podcast, you might not know Greg, but he was my cohost on She Hulk, another show that was so good,

[01:50:29] [SPEAKER_03]: so creative, so funny. And we had a great time doing that. And we also podcast about a show called

[01:50:35] [SPEAKER_03]: extraordinary, which has had two seasons and we're hoping for a third because season two ended

[01:50:41] [SPEAKER_03]: on a big cliffhanger. And, uh, he's done a bunch of other shows for podcast. And he has helped me

[01:50:48] [SPEAKER_03]: learn how to edit. He helped Jim get last week's episode out. So in the running, the running rumor

[01:50:54] [SPEAKER_01]: is that he would like to join us as a guest host on this very, this very show. So, uh, you might be

[01:51:01] [SPEAKER_01]: hearing that very well, amazing baritone voice that is awesome. And every podcast that he's in,

[01:51:08] [SPEAKER_01]: uh, joining us in an episode coming up early soon. He does have sort of a classic broadcaster voice,

[01:51:14] [SPEAKER_03]: radio voice. So witchy question of the week for this coming week is inspired by this episode. And that is

[01:51:21] [SPEAKER_03]: what songs do you think might also be spells? Send us in like a snatch of lyrics or an example of a song

[01:51:31] [SPEAKER_03]: that you think might be doing something, you know, a little witchy behind the scenes.

[01:51:35] [SPEAKER_01]: Does Van Halen's jump make you jump or other people?

[01:51:39] [SPEAKER_03]: No, but jump around makes me jump.

[01:51:44] [SPEAKER_02]: Without missing a beat.

[01:51:48] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, I have a story about that, but that's for off air.

[01:51:53] [SPEAKER_03]: So that is our show, everybody. Next time will be episode five,

[01:51:57] [SPEAKER_03]: darkest hour, wake thy power.

[01:52:01] [SPEAKER_01]: Still want to sing it. If you want to join the conversation,

[01:52:04] [SPEAKER_01]: you can email or send a voice memo to agatha at podcast.com. And we'll put feedback posts up on

[01:52:10] [SPEAKER_01]: the podcast, your Facebook page, or of course you can find us at podcast.com.

[01:52:16] [SPEAKER_03]: And of course, while you're over there, look around, check out all the other podcast shows.

[01:52:21] [SPEAKER_03]: There are so very many of them and they are all great. And you should start with yours from each

[01:52:28] [SPEAKER_01]: other. Start with your other one because we're hitting.

[01:52:32] [SPEAKER_03]: We are about to wrap up Rings of Power. So Rings of Power had its final episode

[01:52:37] [SPEAKER_03]: last week. It was intense. That final episode. I'm going to, I can't even begin to talk about it.

[01:52:47] [SPEAKER_03]: So we're recording our podcast about that this coming weekend. And then if you haven't gotten

[01:52:53] [SPEAKER_03]: feedback in, in time for that, we're also going to do a season two wrap up podcast like a couple

[01:52:59] [SPEAKER_03]: weeks after that. So there's plenty of time to get feedback in. If you want to talk about Rings of

[01:53:03] [SPEAKER_03]: Power, there's a lot to talk about there. The whole show is about good versus evil and how evil can

[01:53:12] [SPEAKER_03]: seduce you into doing bad things, even if you're a good person. There's a lot of other things going

[01:53:18] [SPEAKER_03]: on at podcast. There's a brand new show called sports castica. Jim, have you, are you're a sports

[01:53:24] [SPEAKER_01]: guy? I'm a sports guy too. Yeah. Which, which is the funny parallel to all this is I love sports and

[01:53:30] [SPEAKER_01]: they, uh, they have, I believe two podcasts outright right now. Uh, the most recent one is

[01:53:37] [SPEAKER_01]: one. I, you know, I, I live in Erie, Pennsylvania, which is a couple of hours North of Pittsburgh.

[01:53:43] [SPEAKER_01]: I grew up a Penn's fan and they, their latest pod is called turn that 99 upside down, which is

[01:53:49] [SPEAKER_01]: a podcast about Wayne Gretzky, maybe the greatest hockey player who ever lived in Mario Lemieux.

[01:53:54] [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, Mario Lemieux was a Pittsburgh player who used to own the pens. And, um, those two are vast,

[01:54:02] [SPEAKER_01]: very often considered the best two players. And I, I've had that very conversation with so many of my

[01:54:07] [SPEAKER_01]: friends. Uh, it's a wonderful, uh, quick turn of a sports podcast. And then their previous podcast

[01:54:12] [SPEAKER_01]: was about sacrifice bunting. And I, it hurts my heart that I have not been a part of this podcast

[01:54:17] [SPEAKER_01]: yet because both of those topics are, if I told you Penny, how much I've talked about those two sports

[01:54:23] [SPEAKER_01]: things in my sporty life. Uh, so, uh, it's a, it's a wonderful podcast. If, if you have sports

[01:54:29] [SPEAKER_01]: inclinations, I highly recommend the Gretzky Lemieux podcast simply because those two players, uh, are

[01:54:36] [SPEAKER_01]: very much beyond just known to the hockey world. So if you want to dip your toes into hockey, which I do

[01:54:44] [SPEAKER_01]: think is one of the greatest sports out there that people don't watch, uh, it's a great podcast, um,

[01:54:50] [SPEAKER_01]: to bump into, especially being a sports podcast in, in the realm of podcasting it, because

[01:54:56] [SPEAKER_03]: that's certainly a first. Yeah, that is a, that is a fresh new direction for podcast. And I hope

[01:55:04] [SPEAKER_03]: that it is a runaway success. Of course the main podcast, the podcast, the cast of us is going

[01:55:10] [SPEAKER_03]: strong with Daryl Dixon season two back right now. And, um, from season three from is, uh, I haven't

[01:55:20] [SPEAKER_03]: watched episode three yet, but episodes one and two were like unreal. They were so tense and deep

[01:55:29] [SPEAKER_03]: and twisty and interesting. So I'm, I can't wait for it. And I just want to say this as far as

[01:55:37] [SPEAKER_01]: podcasts, podcasts go. Um, it's so interconnected with the show. They do, they do YouTube videos at

[01:55:47] [SPEAKER_01]: the end, uh, initial reactions and the current ones have actors from the show reacting with them.

[01:55:55] [SPEAKER_01]: So this, this podcast, it, first of all, if you have not seen the show, the show is absolutely

[01:56:02] [SPEAKER_01]: fantastic. I wish it was on something bigger so that everybody could have a chance to see it.

[01:56:10] [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, and please, after you're done watching, check out podcast because, uh, YouTube channel,

[01:56:16] [SPEAKER_01]: because you can see actual actors from the show reacting to the show, which is absolutely amazing.

[01:56:23] [SPEAKER_03]: It's really fun. It's a lot of fun.

[01:56:26] [SPEAKER_03]: Thank you guys, everybody out there for listening to us and until next time I am Penny and I am Jim

[01:56:34] [SPEAKER_03]: get what you with it.