88: "Optics" (Daredevil: Born Again S1E2)

[00:00:33] S1E2, Marvel TV Casts, Daredevil! dead. The only way I can win it is if I know every way I can lose it. You're right. You're right. I'm sorry. I should have told you. You okay? Sound like you're in pain. Rikers Island is no picnic. It's equal opportunity to beat down guards and inmates alike. Hang

[00:01:02] in there, okay? I'll make some calls to see what I can do. Hey, everybody. Welcome back to our podcast. I'm Jim. And I'm Kirk. And this is the Marvel TV cast episode 88. This episode, we're covering Daredevil Born Again Season 1, Episode 2, Optics. I'll hit you with

[00:01:30] my first point, and those are the new characters. We got Kirsten McDuffie, who we find out is now part of a McDuffie and Murdoch. We've got McDuffie, who's, I assume, playing the foggy role of being the angel on his shoulder. She's constantly throughout this episode in a very playful way. I love the chemistry. I love the chemistry between them. It's good. Immediate chemistry. What's funny is it's the same sort of chemistry we saw her with

[00:02:00] Foggy at the beginning. As she mentioned in Episode 1, she was going to leave the ADA soon, and she was going to join another firm. We find out that she creates another firm with Matt Murdoch, and this is definitively not a storefront firm. This is a full-on firm. Oh, yeah. They're making money. They're making money.

[00:02:23] And you can tell that Murdoch is now the creme de la creme of defense lawyers. Everybody always knew he was good, and now he's got money behind it, and off they go. Bibi Uric in this episode, and I'm going to pause my characters here because I have a question for you. We see her in this episode, again, doing the groundswell, kind of going around and filming

[00:02:49] in a very realistic sense. When she meets with Fisk through Blake, who's my third character mentioned, she helps him. Do you think that she's going to be like Ben fighting evil, or do you think that she's going to be a social media influencer where she's okay with whatever kind of news she gets?

[00:03:16] I don't know. I think she's young and experienced and is going to learn a lot about the realities of life through this season. That's my guess. Because when she leaves the meeting with Fisk, Daniel's all apologetic. But then Fisk is like, no, we can use this. We can work with this. This is a

[00:03:42] good person to utilize. And so he sees her as a weapon or as a tool for what he wants to accomplish. She's going to have to come to terms with that. She's going to have to realize that. You know what I mean? I don't think she's going to turn bad. I think that's kind of your question. Is she working for bad or good? I think it's more that she doesn't realize yet what she does can be manipulated. That's my guess. The wild card here too is the fact that Fisk brutally murdered Ben.

[00:04:11] And then compliments her on him. He was a great journalist. Well, he obviously agreed that he was because that's why I killed him. So I like her character. We only got a taste of it, but I think there's a lot of- Yeah, I thought there was not enough there yet for me to have any kind of feeling about her as a character. I don't- Right. She's certainly not at this point as strong a character as her father was, you know?

[00:04:39] Yeah. Yeah. Hopefully that we can get her there because the relationship between Ben and- Was it Karen? Wasn't he tight with Karen or was he tight with Matt? I thought he was tight with Karen. Oh, well, yeah. Okay. I'm comic version of him. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So the Born Again series, the comic book series is very much intertwined with Ben knowing who Matt is- Right. As Daredevil and kind of working through that.

[00:05:08] Well, they've kind of got that here with the PI that he's got. Yes. Oh, yeah. I wasn't even going to mention him too. Oh, you should. You should. Yeah. Well, so my third character was Daniel Blake, this Michael Gandolfini who- My favorite comment about him is, is he an idiot or an operator? And my hope with this character is that they picked Gandolfini for a reason,

[00:05:34] that he's going to be in this show for a long time and that he's initially maybe a Wesley who eventually evolves perhaps into something else. I don't know if Daniel Blake is in the comics. I can't remember that name off the top of my head, but I will say that having him play kind of a bumbling idealist sort of reminds me of a couple of characters in Succession

[00:05:57] who turn out to be pretty evil as they go. And I think that the potential for Blake to turn into something more than just a sidekick to Kingpin is tasty. Maybe in a season three or a season four, if we get that far. So I really like where we're going with the Blake character. I just want to mention the White Tiger character because he's such a full focal point. I'm not going to mention a lot because I suspect he's going to be a bigger part,

[00:06:22] but having that character in this is really interesting because we don't have a lot of Hispanic superheroes. And Hector Ayala being in this is pretty, pretty cool. The fact that the actor that played him, Kamaru de los Rios, passed away a couple of months after filming these scenes. He found out he had cancer and weeks later passed away. Jesus Christ. So at the beginning, there was a memoriam for him, which I thought was nice.

[00:06:51] But his character is, again, very much intertwined with Daredevil. And then Cherry, the character that played... He was a retiring police officer in the opening sequence. In the opening scene who becomes the PI for... And he sort of... On the roof in that opening sequence, he discovers Matt's identity. Yeah, in a very similar way, as you mentioned to Ben, which is clear, possibly a replacement. Yeah, that's what they're doing. Yeah, so...

[00:07:20] And he finds out that... And he's trying to talk sense into them. You know, they meet him. I like this version of you. Yeah. Be this version of you. Yeah, this is a good version. This is the version I want to see of you. And that's sort of like... Yeah, okay. I'll see you later. For a while. Yeah. Yeah, so I love these new characters. There's potential for them. There is an abruptness to it. Yeah, I don't like the Blake character, but that's because I'm not... I don't think I'm supposed to.

[00:07:50] Yeah. I mean, he just... He seems a bit smarmy. Is that it? Yeah. Yeah. And he's also... To me, he's a little representative. As the whole... As we talked earlier, the whole show is kind of commenting on real life in some respects with regards to current politics and things. And I think that he kind of represents that mentality of the fame and the power and all of that is so cool.

[00:08:20] You know? And he just seems to think that's so cool. He's not looking at the fact of what Fisk is, where he comes from, what his motivations are, what his true goal is. Yeah. Or how he's going to go about things. He's just... Well, we think he does it. Well, that's true. That's true. It could be. I think he's going to be the new Wesley. That's my guess. Well, so there's a character in Succession. And if you watch it, you'll know immediately who I'm talking about.

[00:08:46] There's a character in Succession named Greg, who is this naive sort of bumbling idiot throughout the series. But as it progresses, we start to see that he starts to kind of learn this evil path. And I feel like the choice of Gandolfini is... I think it's going to go beyond that. I think we have a future kingpin in the making here with this character. Wow. ...or a future bad guy in the making. It's funny. My initial take with him is, oh, I hope Fisk doesn't turn him bad.

[00:09:16] And your initial take was sort of on the opposite coin. And I think that's exactly what they want. Yeah. They want this character that we don't take serious. And then we find out we should take him more serious. And maybe he just is the Wesley where he's the right-hand man to Fisk. Well, I think it's also... For me, it was also the idea that this is a character that is naive about what's really

[00:09:42] going on and doesn't realize how what their support is feeding into the creation of this horrible reality and this horrible kingpin mayorship. You know what I mean? Yeah. In other words, he's helping to enable this. Yeah. But he thinks he's doing this. He's with this cool, powerful guy that's going to become mayor and it's going to be awesome. But he's naive. He's helping to make a criminal the mayor of New York. The face of New York. Yeah.

[00:10:11] As the title says, he's 100% worried about optics. Yeah, exactly. For sure. So yeah. And I will just say this. As abrupt as these new characters were kind of thrust upon us, I will say that the addition, going back to episode one briefly, the addition of the old characters bridging us to these new characters made it less abrupt. Yes. I'm sure that the initial film... I mean, obviously, the initial filming of this did not include that. Yeah. So... Yeah. Yeah.

[00:10:40] I think you're right. So having that first episode make that jump from a year, making us understand why we had to jump a year, giving us a taste of some of those characters in the bar, which I thought was brilliant. Oh, that was key. That was crucial. Crucial. And I was texting with you while I was watching that scene for the first time. And I knew that something bad was going to happen to someone that was sitting there. And I didn't know what it was.

[00:11:09] And there was a fear because I didn't know if it was going to be Karen or if it was going to be foggy. My assumption was Karen based on, you know, I don't want to give any comic spoilers, but my assumption was that it was going to be Karen. Here's your text verbatim. I want it to be fresh, so I'm watching now. I've obviously heard some general things, so I'm not going to lie. I'm scared. Then a pause. Holy cow. Wow.

[00:11:38] And then I think I went dark because I was truly. Yeah, that was too. I can't text and watch this at the same time. It hit me in the gut. I don't know about you, but that we didn't talk about this in episode one, but that hit me in the gut. And I felt when he was on the top of that building, I remember thinking like, wait, they already paralyzed bullseye. But I sure hope they throw him off this building.

[00:12:09] Your wish is his command. Yeah. So I, when I first watched it, I was in such a daze of trying to figure out where this episode, where the series was going to go. And that's why my second point was show direction. And I had a question mark after it and kind of listening to you talk it out and that now kind of taking in episode two, you realize that we're heading off towards the stance between all of these characters and we needed to reintroduce these new characters.

[00:12:35] And now I wonder if they, they liked the scripts to the first run, but they needed to give Matt drive for what happened. And now we're going to get, we're going to get our old characters. It's also a way, it's also a way of the original core characters blessing the new incoming characters. Yeah. I mean, I think that that was, that's crucial. These aren't some, you know, characters that are not unknown to the people that we care about.

[00:13:05] And that's what I was kind of going talking about before about the whole soap opera kind of long running storytelling and narrative. The serialness of it. Yeah. We, if we, if, if Karen and foggy believe in these people, I believe in them. Sure. What I mean? Yeah. Um, and I guess it's possible, as you mentioned that we get foggy in some episodes as flashbacks, if we are loved your idea.

[00:13:30] I loved your idea that, that Vanessa set this all up in order to, to try and pit Matt against a Fisk again. And that's a brilliant, I didn't even think of that. So I thought that was a brilliant insight on your part. See Kirk, listen, we're here to educate. Success. You, you, you accomplished a goal. Did it take us 45 minutes to start zoom today? Yes. But you know what? As we head into our four of this project.

[00:14:02] Hey, look, did it just take us 25 minutes to talk about my point one? Sure. Yeah. Hey, you can always just turn it off. Come on. Well, here's the good news. You know, I got the pro account to work. There you go. There you go. All right. Anyways, what's your point one? I liked how they got right to the Fisk as mayor story. We didn't get multiple episodes of him running and an election. And is he going to win? Is he not going to win when we know he's going to win?

[00:14:32] And, you know, there's no need for that. You know what I mean? Again, both episodes and the series so far, lean, lean and mean. Doesn't need, I don't need a ton of other shit. You know, I don't need stupid stuff that doesn't relate to the story. I don't need to know I'm not a child. I watch a lot of TV. I can figure it out. You know what I mean? So a lot of exposition or anything. They just, and I loved, I loved that, you know, because, because that's really what we want.

[00:15:00] We want that tension between, you know, mayor is now a Fisk as mayor and, and, and how's, how's Mac going to work with that? And what's that going to, and that, that's the interesting stuff. So I thought they did a great job on that. And I loved how they continued in the second episode to show the, the, the complexity in Fisk right now and, and the struggle with his darker side and his difficulty in, in being mainstream, you know what I mean?

[00:15:29] And, and, and beginning to show cracks, you know, I mean, and again, coming back to our, our discussion on the first episode about how, and about the relationship between Fisk and, and Matt that, you know, he, he wants, he sees himself as a hero too. He, he wants to, to, to really make the city better. He wants in his mind and the whole pothole scene was fantastic. Cause it's like, this is ridiculous. You know, I'm getting out here and I'm going to do something and I'm going to, you know, make a difference.

[00:15:59] And, and that's going to work for me now. And, and that's, it did work for him and it was the right thing to do. But at the same time, then he brings the police commissioner in, he tries to go to the police commissioner and make an appeal to him at the, at the funeral. And he's respectful. Well, I'm surprised you even sure. Well, I waited until afterwards over cause I didn't want to upset anybody. I mean, he was really trying to, you know, be legit. Yeah. And the guy fucking spits in his face rightfully. So, you know what I mean? Yep.

[00:16:28] And so then that's it. Gloves are off. You know what I mean? Yeah. Well, that whole scene in that room with the, with the, the Philly steak and cheese sandwich and the guy comes in and he's got his, he's got his resignation letter and he's full of confidence and he just spits in his face again. And then he says, well, you, you're from Philly, right? And the steak and cheese. I mean, it was like watching the Godfather. You know what I mean? It was like, Oh shit, where are we going? Where are we going?

[00:16:57] Why is he talking about Philly? And then, and then the steak and cheese thing. And then the best part. Well, he kept moving the wrapper around and you could see there was something on the wrapper. Well, again, then the, the ticks and the, and the hands and the, you know, D'Onofrio again, just making this character visually we're, we're feeling and seeing. The, the, the struggle that's going on inside of him, you know, that darkness just trying

[00:17:25] to bubble out and, and him trying to hold it back, but yet use it. It's just, just fantastic. And then, and then of course the closing line is just hilarious. You know, the sandwich was disgusting. That was just great. Well, I couldn't, I'm like, why are we talking? He's got, you know, he's talking about Gino's and he's talking about cheesesteaks. I'm just oblivious to all of it. I'm like, what the hell is happening here? Yeah. Yeah.

[00:17:53] And understanding that, what he said, I like this place outside, just a little outside of town. And I didn't get it at first. Right. What the fuck? Like, when does Kingpin have time to go to Philly? Like, what are we talking about here? Exactly. And they never, but see, this is where the exposition, I think would have happened in Netflix. Yeah. But didn't here. Yeah. The, there was no discussion. Yeah.

[00:18:20] As soon as he lifts up the thing and you see the picture and you see it's a child and a woman, you don't even need to know necessarily like, is this a child that he had out of wedlock with this woman or, or is this just, um, is it, is it, is it one of his kids? Yeah, it's exactly his kid. Is it? Yeah. It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. All we need to know is that the look on his face and the fact that he, you know, we know

[00:18:48] that this child and this woman are, are, are now being, you know, used against him. Well, and at the end of the day, that scene where we get Fisk at the beginning in episode one, where he walks into the room and everybody leaves at the end of the day, this is still Kingpin, right? He doesn't have to say a whole lot. You know, we didn't talk about that scene. That, that scene was pretty fucking hilarious. Yes. And because on so many levels, because then you can see too, that she's kind of disgusted. Yeah.

[00:19:18] By the fact that she thinks, you know, she's in charge, man. She's right. And then we get to see right before that her, you know, resolve this conflict in such an effective way. And, and like, you know, she's just obviously doing such a great job. And then he just walks in and no matter how much power she has, everyone's still afraid of him. Yeah. You know what I mean?

[00:19:39] And which feeds right into your theory, which is, well, so the fact that he's trying to run away from this is, is funny in that it's there. Everybody knows it. And the fact that New York city still voted for him, the fact that, but in a moment with

[00:20:01] a look or with a picture or with a statement, whoever he's talking to is going to know that at the end of the day, this is Kingpin and he's that close to it. So yeah, my second point was Fisk in this episode because he, you know, the optics, as much as you can talk about optics for Matt Murdock, which are there as well.

[00:20:26] But the Fisk in this episode, we start to see him start to, he's the mayor now. And that scene, we get to see him in his mayoral office a couple of times. One in which he's staring at the desk, talking about LaGuardia, the former mayor and how his dad respected LaGuardia because he was no nonsense guy. Uh, and we know Fisk's relationship with his father, you know, he killed his father.

[00:20:52] We know his, his hatred of him, but also the, uh, deep seated sort of apologetic respect that he has for his dad. And he's just staring at this desk and this lady, you know, is, is, is his assistant telling about his schedule and all these things. And he's talking about this. He's like, how old do you think this desk is? I was like, he's, he could give two shits about what she's saying.

[00:21:15] And then as you noted, he capitalizes on the hole that's in the street and the red tape that we know goes on in New York city because of work, because of unions and things like that. Uh, and he kind of cuts through all that red tape, which immediately will get a response, not only in fictional 2026, 2027, New York city, but also today. Like if, if you walk out and fill up a hole and when nobody else will do it, you're going to get a reaction. So very powerful stuff.

[00:21:44] Uh, and then how he handles the police chief. What really struck me too about the Fisk part of this is the uncomfortableness that he brings about in every scene with whoever he's with, including Vanessa. You always feel like a switch is going to get, get like when, when Gallo walked in there, the commissioner, I was positive.

[00:22:09] It was going to end with his head mashed on the floor, completely flattened, you know, because you get that sense that Gallo's not legit. You get that sense that all of these characters that we're dealing with on the other side of Murdoch and daredevil are somewhere on the dark side of things. Gallo obviously knows Fisk was not afraid to walk up to him. Um, I got a sense that they had dealt with each other.

[00:22:37] They hired an actor that we know, which makes me think we're not done with him yet either. I, I kept my mind kept playing tricks on me. Like we had gotten this character in the Netflix series, but we didn't. Uh, I wonder how legit this character is. Uh, we, we don't know what the police officers were doing at the beginning of this, this, this episode. We don't know who this other person is who Matt Murdoch later goes to talk to. Uh, we'll get to that in a bit.

[00:23:06] Well, I think the concern is that so many of the police recognize what Fisk is. Yes. And they don't want to work for him. Right. And, but they are incredibly loyal to the commissioner. Yes. So the commissioner's threat to resign was going to cause a huge resignation of, of, of, of ground level police. Right. So that's why he has to keep him on. Yes. Right. Now, what's he up to?

[00:23:34] I think we're going to have some more connectivity there as well. Clearly not. He's not completely not clean because of the, or otherwise the situation with the girl and the boy in Philadelphia wouldn't have, wouldn't have been able to be used against him. Right. Right. And well, but I also. Not that he's doing anything bad, but he just may not be, you know. Yeah. Well, well, they're clean. And when you connect it to the two cops. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:23:59] Well, well, the three cops, because as, as he so eloquently noted earlier. Yeah. Um, one of them explodes. Yeah. Exploding cop. I shouldn't be. That's not funny. That is not. No, we're not. Yeah. No. Again, we're just talking about good cops. I mean, they're beating the guy up for no reason or that we know on. And this sort of feels like self-defense. Is it connected to Gallo? Is it connected to foggy?

[00:24:30] There's an unknown quality to this that I love because there's definitely stories that aren't being told yet that are eventually going to get to the be told. I just don't know how it all fits together yet, which, which is always the sign of a good series. Yeah. And I, I, again, I, I would not be surprised to see it connect to Vanessa. I think that, you know, you, you've got me on that path now and I'm full. I'm fully on board. All right.

[00:24:55] Well, if I got you on the wrong, listen, when I find out that I'm wrong, which is usually the case, at least it was a good idea. Then we'll both be wrong. That'd be fine. We've alluded to this already. And it segues really nicely is that we're seeing our two main characters in Wilson Fisk and Matt Murdock getting pushed to their limit to the point where they're clearly fighting.

[00:25:20] Well, I would argue that one is fighting harder than the other. I sort of feel like Murdock is, even though we get a moment where he begs not to keep doing whatever they're doing to him, which we'll get to in a second. My gut instinct throughout episode two is that Matt's just sort of looking for a reason to revert back to Daredevil. Yeah. Yeah. Well, not, not unlike Fisk. Yeah. And, and, and Fisk, but, but D'Onofrio and Charlie Cox play it very differently.

[00:25:50] Cox seems to just sort of be envelope himself in. I need to find out something that lets me be Daredevil again. Whereas D'Onofrio is like, is really pensive and it's part of, it's the way he talks. And part of it is just the way he walks. And they're, they're, they're, they're, they're reflections of each other. Yes. Matt is trying to find reasons to let Daredevil out.

[00:26:17] And Fisk is trying to find reasons to keep Kingpin in. See, like I said, we're educating. Of course, everyone's like, we knew that two hours ago. Why didn't you say it then? I mentioned the push to their limits because we see a brief scene where they're putting makeup on Kingpin, covering up sort of a black eye.

[00:26:47] And they pan to his knuckles that clearly show punching was happened at some point. We're not given any more than that. Yeah. It's not brought up again, but clearly something's going on behind the scenes that we don't know about with, with, with Fisk. I don't know. I saw that more as just, you know, he's getting made up, but don't forget, he's, he's, he's not a movie star. He's a monster. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:27:17] Okay. That's all I saw. You know, he does it. He could have beat up somebody two weeks ago. So, you know, who knows, but it doesn't, you know, this is a guy who, you know, what was it in, was it third, the third season of the Netflix show where he's, he gets really bad news. He's in the car. Yes. He's with his right hand man. It had nothing to do with the news. He was just delivering the news. And he, he tells him to take off his jacket. And the guy's like, what is it?

[00:27:46] Take off your jacket. He's like, all right. So he takes his jacket off. He takes the jacket, throws it over the guy. And he just, he just him to death. Mashes his head to death. Yeah. And then tells the driver to, to get rid of the body. And it was purely just him getting out his, his frustration and his anger. It was episode. It was, it was season three. It was season three. Yeah. Cause I just rewatched it. Yeah. But I, I love that they're, they're letting us know that that's still there. Oh yeah. It's, it's right there under the, under the first layer of skin.

[00:28:15] And then on the flip side of it, we have Matt who is still dealing with foggy a year later, very evident. And I think the D'Onofrio being a part of this series in a lot of ways is a discredit to Charlie Cox as an actor who I think embodies daredevil in a way that I don't know that can be matched. I mean, that's obviously not true, but I, you know, we, we alluded to the Ben Affleck version

[00:28:44] of daredevil way seven and a half hours ago when we started this. And, um, you know, Affleck never for a second made me think Matt Murdock, but Charlie Cox, there's, um, a Catholicness to this, a feeling of always having to sacrifice that Charlie Cox brings to this character that is so rooted in the, in the, the, the foundations of this

[00:29:11] character from, from when he was created in the sixties to now. Yeah. Um, that, that is, is brilliant. And the pain that comes off of him at, at these moments in time where we are a year later, he's in this firm now, he's a good lawyer, but we can still see that everything he's doing is based simply in the fact that his buddy was killed and I'm not daredevil anymore. This is who I'm going to be because of it.

[00:29:39] And that pain that kind of bleeds off of him throughout this episode and every scene is really amazing. And it's subtle and it's not, it's not grand. Like, like D'Onofrio tends to be. Right. It's more subtle. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that when he's confronted with white tiger who, uh, mentions daredevil and we get that smile from Murdoch and that last scene, which was so amazingly powerful and so

[00:30:08] much like a Wilson Fisk scene to me where he's getting beat up and there's a joy to it. And he's smiling through a lot of it. And it's, and I don't know if he means to be smiling or if it's part of his grimace, but that's really kind of who Matt Murdoch's father was. That's who he has been. And when I go back to that joy that the comic book takes and like having Matt Murdoch get

[00:30:31] beat up often only to see him bring that back to the people who are bringing it to him. Uh, you can see right up to the moment where that gun is pointed at his head when he actually starts saying, you don't want to do this. Don't please don't make me do this. Right. But you can also feel the other half of him going, you dumb motherfuckers. Well, even more so, like we said, he he's looking for a reason to let the devil out.

[00:31:01] And he says to the guy, you don't want to do this. But really what he's saying on the inside to himself is do it, do it, please fucking do it. You know what I mean? And then, and then he does it and then you can see, I mean, the devil comes out and man, does he come out? That fight scene was brutal. One of my favorites. Yeah. It was, and it was quick.

[00:31:22] It was, man, I, the best way that you can show that you are going to maybe go a little darker than even the Netflix series is to show arms getting bet in the wrong direction, which, which by the way, was in the compound fracture to say we're serious. But that was, I knew that was coming because that's the one thing I did see in that fucking trailer. They showed it in the trailer. Oh my God.

[00:31:51] Well, they wanted to make sure people didn't stay away from it, that they wanted, you know, that they knew that it was going to be as, as dark and gritty. Yeah. It's interesting. You know, it's interesting as a side note, because I noticed this with, um, there, uh, with Wolverine and Deadpool, obviously Marvel and, and Disney struggle with how are we going to do these more adult stuff? You know what I mean?

[00:32:15] And, and it seems like the compromise has been to up the gore and down the sexuality. Yes. It seemed like that's where they kind of, uh, settled on and, and you saw it in Wolverine and Deadpool. I mean, the gore in Wolverine and Deadpool was like unprecedented. And I mean, and Logan, I loved, and Logan was dark and brutal as well, but this was like crazy.

[00:32:43] What Logan didn't have is the, is NSYNC playing in the background. So true. True. So listen, but you know, it seems like that's where, you know, that's where they've, they've said, okay, we're going to, we're going to let you even go a little heavier on this and a little darker, a little more graphic. Um, and the trade office, we're going to be not quite as, um, I don't know if the word is mature. That's not the word I want, you know, but I guess. Yeah. I mean, I mean, you said it right.

[00:33:12] Like there's a sexuality we did. Hey, listen, we got some F bombs though. So yeah, get a few. But, um, you know, I, the Netflix series truly was definitively sexual and orientation in certain parts, you know, as you know, it was kind of interesting, but I'll say the whole universe was, I mean, you know, Jessica Jones was, was also, you know, well, I, I will say, you know, you mentioned daredevil. There's a love making scene with, with Luke Cage.

[00:33:42] That's pretty wild. Yeah. Yeah. Um, are, are, is you mentioned she Hulk and you know, daredevil scene scenes in that were definitely, you know, they weren't risky or anything like that. Not like the Netflix series, but you know, we literally have him doing the walk of shame in the daredevil. I mean, there was, there was, yeah, there was, there was, okay. They had sex, you know what I mean? Yeah.

[00:34:07] But it wasn't, but it was, yeah, it was a playful, as playful as you could make it, you know? So, but I do agree. I, I, I'm fascinated by this turn for Disney. I'm just fascinated by it because they so clearly stayed away from it prior. Yeah. And now they realize that the audience for this, this is the kind of character where it's, it's gotta be there. The comic.

[00:34:35] Look, look, they, they've been struggling and then they did Wolverine and Deadpool and did a billion dollars. Yes. Well, yeah. And I mean, there's no more. Yeah. Enough said. Exactly. So I, I, there's an audience out there, super curious about, I don't know anything about how much the series cost. I don't know how much it's interesting because I think the series was shot before Agatha actually. And, uh, Agatha was bare bones.

[00:35:02] I don't think this was, so hopefully it makes a lot of money because Agatha did great. And this being the follow-up to Agatha, it's so funny because I did that podcast as well. And this doesn't even feel like we're in the same universe. Yeah. It's crazy. Which I think is the brilliance of these characters that Netflix grabbed ahold of these defenders who were these, you know, we talked about for episode one, these, these kind of in the dirt sort of, you know, New York city, like we're going to beat your ass sort of

[00:35:31] characters and how they incorporate this into the overall, you know, cause you know, we've got fantastic four coming up and we've got, you know, as you mentioned, we've got the civil war stuff coming up. I don't, this is so vastly secret wars. Sorry. Yeah. Uh, the, so vastly different than that. I can't wait to see what they do and how maybe this plays a part in cause of their incorporating daredevil into these movies.

[00:35:57] Um, I'm curious to see if it all makes it into these movies. Yeah. Well, and again, uh, you know, I, I don't know why I don't struggle with this the way that, that the audiences do. It seems there are a lot of the audience does that, you know, they, if you grew up reading comic books, you, you realize there were comics, you know, like Wolverine and Punisher and even Deadpool that were graphic and, and brutal and, and real life and daredevil and everything else.

[00:36:26] But then, you know, you read the Avengers and they were, you know, off in space fighting Thanos and, you know, it was, uh, and then you had She-Hulk, which was comedic and comic and funny and, or Silver Surfer, which was philosophical and, and introspective and Moon Night, which was, you know, mental illness and personality disorder and, uh, just, uh, you know, and that's what makes it great.

[00:36:55] And, you know, you don't follow the books you don't enjoy, but it's, I always found it refreshing to sit down and read, you know, an issue of a book that was funny and then pick up the next one and it's dark. And then the next one, and it's a sweeping space opera. And then the next one, it's like, um, so I, I don't know why people don't feel like, you know, the movies should, should also be like that. You know what I mean? Yeah.

[00:37:18] Well, the difference between, for example, Ms. Marvel and this show and Agatha, the, the three of them, um, all with ties together with their producers, but all vastly different shows where you're dealing with different audiences, which is what the comic books did as well. So, you know, Daredevil was built for adults to read it, to be quite honest, even though

[00:37:43] I was a kid when I started, whereas with Spider-Man has always been and always probably will be in a lot of ways, uh, a book for kids, even though I've read it my whole life. It's certainly written with the, uh, the youth. And then when you bring Miles Morales into the equation as well, like you keep tying that youth aspect into it. And that's why you tell lighter stories in that. Yeah. I think that, I think that the Spider-Man has aged up in comics, but I think to your point,

[00:38:12] the introduction of Miles really gave them. Goes back to that core. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. So, yeah, I mean, I, I. Those animated films too. Yes. Oh, classic. Yeah. I mean, as good as he gets because it felt so much like a comic book. And, uh, I do think that the best shows and movies have that sense and sensibility as well,

[00:38:36] but that doesn't mean it has to be comic bookie, uh, to use a phrase like they can fit a style of the writer, a style of a director, a style of, uh, an overarching theme of, of, you know, you mentioned Punisher, like I don't want Punisher to show up in Ms. Marvel. Right. Although that would add an interesting dynamic. So that's why you have. But to that point, coming back to the, to the movies, you know, you were, this branch of our

[00:39:04] conversation started when you're talking about D.D. becoming part of the Avengers or the Avengers movie. Sure. Um, you know, yeah, it happens in the comics, but when, you know, when you're reading the Daredevil book, it's dark, it's gritty, it's street level. When he's shows up in team up or in, uh, the Avengers or the defenders, it's, it's different. You know, it's more just kind of like, what does he bring to this battle? You know what I mean?

[00:39:32] And, um, so, you know, you don't, you're not, you're not expecting that story in that book to be like his book. Right. I mean, all right. Sorry. That was my second point, which started off with main characters pushed to their limits. Well, I kind of, I mean, I've been just kind of chiming in on your points and getting my points out there. Um, we talked about, um, the white tiger.

[00:39:58] I was going to talk about that and, and the duality there of, in the story twist, um, the fight scene that, um, so we've already kind of talked to that. So I'm, um, I'm kind of done with my points on this one. I, I would say the only cons I had is that, um, I didn't like this episode as much as the first, maybe because there was no foggy and Karen. Um, so that kind of, you know, maybe that bothered me, but then the other is that I

[00:40:25] really struggle with, you know, we got that opening fight sequence in costume and then we get, you know, we don't get anything this episode, you know, we get this fight scene at the end, which is, you know, again, like, you know, I, the whole third season and most of the first season, uh, on the Netflix shows, you know, he's wearing the black costume with the scarf over his head and struggle. I struggle. As I, as I mentioned before, we've done this before.

[00:40:54] So episode three better have the suit. Yeah. I don't think it's going to, but I don't either. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and then they've showed us that he's got like five or six different suits. Yeah. He opens up the thing and you see the helmets and it's like, Oh man, give me one of those, man. Let's go. Let's do this. But anyway, I understand it's important to the story.

[00:41:20] You know, he's, there's gotta be some, some, something that drives him to that edge and then pushes him over. Well, how many times do we have to tell that story though? So, but to be fair, the common often have Matt getting to a place of happiness and then him getting kicked off the apple cart. So it's just, as you mentioned before, we've done it with Fisk twice before.

[00:41:44] Um, and here we are again, uh, in a nine episode season heading into the third episode with, with him as daredevil a year prior to when the season really starts. Yeah. And, you know, are we going to have to wait two or three more episodes to get him daredeviling out? I don't know. Yeah.

[00:42:11] Um, what I will say about this episode is I, I, after my first watch, I would agree with you in saying that I liked the first episode better, but I'll say this. I watched it a second time and I started alluding to it when we were talking about it in first episode, but about three quarters of the way through this movie, Matt Murdock is looking for the kid, the person that those two cops were beating up. Right. And he take his, his PI can't find him.

[00:42:40] So he decides on his own to start to do something about it. So he starts using his senses in a way that we really haven't seen before. Yeah. That so much suits us comic book lovers because this is who Matt Murdock really was. Right. And we see him and my God, that scene where he's at, he's walking in front of a gate and you can see the church behind him. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:43:08] And we had sort of just texted back and forth. And, and one of the things I don't want this series to do is necessarily delve down that path again. Right. This was a really subtly brilliant way to let us know that Matt still has that in him. He's, we see the church behind him and we're assuming, Oh God, this is a church thing. No pun intended, but he listens into the church and then you sort of, it doesn't pan around

[00:43:36] and I almost wish it would have, but we see the other side of the street, which is the police station. And we realize he's going to follow the cop to try to see if he can figure out through this cop. And we get to see that's the senses that you mentioned and full use where he's directing his listening ability and his ability to follow the footsteps and how he's so focused on following

[00:44:03] that cop that he almost gets hit by a car because he can. And so I just thought that was brilliant. That reminder that, yeah, he's still fucking blind. And then we get to the scene where he saves the guy who he sends off to his PI. And then we know immediately where this is going. Right. He's staying there for a reason.

[00:44:30] And that scene that reminds me so, so much of stick where interesting. He unlocks the door, takes four steps back and is standing there holding his cane waiting for them. And they walk in the door and he's got that smile on his face and he makes a feeble attempt to keep them off. And then, and then goes full on, you know, ass kicking mode.

[00:44:57] And that last third was so amazing to me. That was so comic book. Yeah, it was authentic. It was good. It was really well done. I just, my, the fact that I I'm dying to see him in the suit all the time doesn't take away from the fact that that was a great scene. It was really, really well done. So anyways, I, yeah, I, I think that's why I liked episode two. I'm not even going to say better, but I think it put it on the same playing field as episode one for me.

[00:45:27] The one interesting thing about the episodes going forward is that past this episode, I believe, and I don't, there's, I believe I read an article at some point that the directors that take over from this point on are directors that were hired by the new show runner and the new executive producer.

[00:45:51] I think that the tone might be taking a change because I think they direct the rest of the series. Okay. So I think these first two episodes were very much rooted in the old and now we're going to head towards the new. This is an old man's recollection of what I think I read. So we'll, we'll, we'll see going forward, but that sounds pretty reliable.

[00:46:19] Few qualifiers, but I think it sounds pretty reliable. That's okay. This is our seven. So it's probably just you and me talking to each other at this point. Yeah. It's this point. Anybody with any sense has gone to sleep. Yeah. All right. What are your notes for that? I have one note. What are yours? That's, that's it. Uh, I think I've, I think I've covered, um, I think I've covered everything on that. Oh, I have one that you're definitely going to want to talk about that. All right, you go.

[00:46:48] My one note was we had a lot of allusions to a character that I am assuming we're going to get a lot of in the rest of the season, or at least some of as Murdoch, it gets slammed up against the wall. We see that that police officer has on his wrist, a Punisher tattoo. Uh, Punisher was mentioned earlier by Wilson Fisk. Yeah. And I know Bernthal, Bernthal has shown up in interviews, so I know he's in this season. Yeah.

[00:47:15] I do think it was interesting that this police officer had that Punisher tattoo. John Bernthal has talked a lot in interviews outside of this series about how serious he takes the role as the Punisher because so many officers, uh, in the line of duty, uh, use that, that skull, um, spray paint that he uses as, um, a symbol for what they do.

[00:47:41] And, and I mean, obviously I'm not going to get into the politics or anything of that nature, but I just, I found it interesting that it showed up on that police officer's wrist. And I'm curious to see where this goes, knowing that the Punisher character is going to be involved somehow in this series and beyond. Yeah. And it was a nice, you know, kind of Easter egg of what's coming. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:48:09] And I just don't know how this plays or what brings the Punisher into the series, but watching Bernthal and Charlie Cox and potentially Wilson Fisk interacting, um, three amazing actors, uh, is, is super exciting for me. Uh, we mentioned Muse, uh, a couple of times in both the episode one and the episode two.

[00:48:31] Uh, we definitely see some points, uh, in episode two where we get a little taste of Muse. Uh, what do you got for us, Kirk? Yeah. Well, he, he, we get, uh, obviously in episode two, we see the mural he's painting. Yeah. Um, of, of Kingpin and then, um, or maybe that was actually the end of season episode one. Yeah. And, and then, um, you know, we get a lot of like news reports you're hearing in the background

[00:48:59] and scenes, uh, of, you know, someone putting murals up all over the city, um, you know, and that this is going on. So we know that, that this is a character that's, you know, growing and importance and going to be coming back in. Um, and then we have a scene in the second episode, uh, where Dr. Heather Glenn is having a book signing and there's a young guy who the camera

[00:49:23] full, um, stays on for quite a little bit. And then he comes up and approaches her. He seems odd. He seems off. Um, and my theory is that that, that is the muse character. Um, I don't know a lot about muse. Um, I know that he in the comics, um, was a villain that my understanding is he used to paint murals, uh, in his victim's blood. So this guy's, this guy's on the darker

[00:49:51] side and, uh, I didn't read those comics. Uh, so, but I think you did, right? So maybe you have some, some more insight into them. Yeah. So this is the, the run they started renumbering from number one. And this was, um, Charles Soule who wrote, uh, that it, it had daredevil, like going to San Francisco for a bit and coming back. But this muse character was in the later part of the first year of Soule writing this comic book. And as you mentioned,

[00:50:20] he was, uh, there was a secondary character called blind spot and blind spot discovers, uh, this serial killer who is, um, murdering people and using their blood as paint to paint murals. And, and he's connect, he's interconnected to, to Punisher as well in, in, in the version of the comic. So spoiler alert, I guess I probably should have put that beforehand, but

[00:50:44] well, a serial killer that paints within his victim's blood is not, not exactly traditional comic book villains, more of a Joker kind of character. Yeah, for sure. And in one of the last comics that I read, he was definitely painting Punisher graffiti. Is that what brings our, our Punisher back to our series? I don't know. Um, no, I bet you're right. I bet you're

[00:51:08] right. Spoilers. Uh, so yeah, but as far as I'm, I know it's a, it's a new character created by Sule, um, in that series, uh, to be a, a, a new big bad for daredevil. Yeah. He strike the, the, the, the drawings I've seen of them or the, the images I've seen of them, he strikes me as being

[00:51:33] kind of like modeled after that main character in a clockwork orange. Yes. Oh, right. So it seems to me that, you know, it's all about chaos and that, and that's where the Joker tie into, you know, I was joking, but it does have kind of a, you know, there's these villains that just, they just want to see the world burn as, uh, Alfred said. Yeah. I, well, I can't, I can't wait to see, obviously the interplay with this character is going to tie all of our characters together

[00:52:03] somehow and how that is will, will remain to be seen. Well, it's interesting. You said that there's a tie in the comics with, with Punisher because I, I, so far with the first two episodes, I couldn't really see how Punisher was going to get brought into this. Um, and I'm assuming he's going to be in this first season. Um, but maybe that is the way that maybe that's the crossover. Yeah. Well, D'Onofrio has stated multiple times that there are some disturbing things in the season and he took

[00:52:33] some glee in that. So take that for what it's worth. Well, and again, you know, as we were talking, um, about how this season may take the Kingpin, uh, Matt Murdock story in another direction. Um, cause it seemed like it was just going to be a bit of a repeat, but I don't, I think you're right. I think it's going to go in a different direction. I could certainly see a villain like

[00:52:58] this being a means of bringing them together to have to somehow unite in some way in order to, to, to take out this, this threat because it's a threat to the city. So then, so Kingpin is concerned and it's a, you know, and as a vigilante, Matt, you know, wants to do, take them out. So yeah, I could see that. This does to me seem wholly separate of the storyline that we're, we're sort of

[00:53:26] looking at right now. Like we, you know, we've seen little touches of, of the muse character in episode one and two. Um, right now we're kind of getting hit with this, this, I've become mayor, uh, I'm just a lawyer and, uh, I, but again, because of your theory, I don't think we're going to get, uh, uh, dead daredevil versus Kingpin in this season. Yep. I don't think that's going to happen. I think that, I think this is going to be more about his issues and

[00:53:53] their issues together with this character muse. And then also the, the Vanessa storyline, what, what leaks, what leaks and then what leaks out after that leads us to season two. I like it. Exactly. Yeah. All right. That's our show. Thanks for listening. Everyone. If you want to write in or leave us a message, you can find all of our contact information at podcastica.com join our Facebook group, uh, there with you there. And, uh, when the show's in season,

[00:54:19] we put up a post for each episode to get your feedback. You can email or send a voice message at talk at podcastica.com or click the tab at podcastica.com. While you're there, be sure to check out our other shows. Um, the cast of us is midway through a season four rewatch of, uh, the walking dead in preparation. They're going to take a break in April because they're going to get ready to do last of us, uh, which starts their second season in

[00:54:47] April. So can't wait for that. Um, yellow jackets has also, uh, got a new, some new episodes up and, uh, Cobra Kai's last episodes, uh, you know, two weeks. Yeah. Yeah. So those are some great casts. You guys should check out. Uh, and just throwing a little kick in here for Agatha all along that I did with Penny, the show before Daredevil. Um, if you're listening to this on house podcastica, but you're not interested in the other shows on there, we also have a podcast just for Disney plus

[00:55:16] Marvel TV shows, which you can also find at podcastica.com next episode, devil, devil born again, episode three, and they have not released the title for that yet. Um, but that will be released on Tuesday and we will have a recording out for that episode, uh, next weekend. So make sure you get your feedback in for that. And all right, that is our show. Thanks for listening, everybody.

[00:55:42] Appreciate it. I'm not seeking penance. What exactly are you going to do?