89: "The Hollow of His Hand" (Daredevil: Born Again S1E3)

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[00:00:30] Hmm? Ah! Oh. You see, my old partner and I, straight out of law school, we were so broke, we pulled about everything we had together for an office bottle of El Melvinis. Only broke it open when we won. Needless to say, the first bottle lasted for a very long time.

[00:00:58] Nice little reminder that once in a while, the system works. You're talking about your friend, Foggy Nelson, right? Was kind of wondering when he would. It's not easy.

[00:01:24] He certainly knew how to enjoy the good moments when they came. Well then, here's to a man who cooks. A well-worn case and Foggy Nelson. May God hold them all in the hollow of his hand.

[00:01:58] Hey everybody, welcome to Daredevil Born Again, a Marvel TV cast podcast. I'm Jim. And I'm Kirk. This episode, we're going to be discussing season one, episode three, The Hollow of His Hand, written by Jill Blankenship and directed by Michael Cuesta. Cuesta made his name directing Homeland. He directed nine episodes and it was in the heyday of Homeland for all you Homeland fans.

[00:02:22] He did the first two seasons and then he directed one of its penultimate episodes in 2020 when it wrapped up. He also directed the first season at Dexter, which is one of my favorites, including the pilot episode and the final episode, which sort of set that series off on its. I struggled with that. I loved that series for the first three seasons. Yeah.

[00:02:46] Well, I had to give it up because mainly because I just I couldn't keep rooting for a serial killer. It's a it's a it's a weird it's a weird thing to root. And they keep coming back with more seasons. Cuesta was the director for these these two episodes. The last week's episode optics and this week's episode. And we talked last week about the first two episodes being connected to the old regime of this new Daredevil series. But it turns out that's not the case.

[00:03:16] I'll get into that in a second. But Cuesta did interview where he talked a little bit about that, which kind of explains a little bit about these first three episodes. But that's one of my thought that I thought it was very well directed. So, you know, I think he's doing a good job. And Cuesta is from New York City. He and a lot of the things that he's directed, the reason why he's been brought in is to bring that kind of core feel of the place where he grew up. And I think obviously that's why he was he was brought in to do this.

[00:03:47] It's funny how long ago they shot this. They shot this series, this part of it in 2020, early 2023. Wow. It's been a long time. So listening to him talk about it has been kind of interesting because he's kind of forgotten it's been so long. Yeah. So I liked that. I thought the title was interesting. The Hallow of His Hand. Which I had to look that up. And and I guess, you know, it's in one's palm.

[00:04:17] It's like holding one's palm in a hand curved like a cup. Yeah. You know, so I think that's kind of interesting. And and the actual religious context is Isaiah 40. 40, 12. Yes. Who was who has measured the waters in the hollow of his hand or with that breadth of his hand marked off the heavens, who has held the dust of the earth in a basket or weighed the mountains on the scales and the hills in a balance.

[00:04:47] So it's kind of like, you know, I felt in one of the points I'm going to make is there was a very religious. There was a lot of religiosity. I felt in this episode, even though it was not blatant. I thought it was metaphorical. And I'll go into it in detail. But and I think that the choice of that title kind of comes back to that. Yeah, I love how it was used.

[00:05:12] And I love all of the different meanings of it, how it was used in those two different contexts. But just before we get into our points, we've now watched the first third of the series. What are your have your feelings changed at all? No, no, I still think it's great. I still think it's doing it. They're doing a great job with it. I thought this episode was solid. It was entertaining, felt a little bit more like a great episode of Law and Order as opposed to a superhero show.

[00:05:40] But but but no, I thought it was good. I thought it was excellent. I think I think it's pretty amazing that contextually looking back, the first three episodes are definitely constructed by different regimes. And it doesn't necessarily feel that way. I know that this episode, as you mentioned, was a Law and Order episode in a sense, but it does fit contextually with what they've done in the first two episodes.

[00:06:09] There is some abruptness that we've talked about. But I do think that the new showrunner and the new executive producers have done a nice job steering the ship so that it doesn't feel completely disjointed. And I was also I mean, even though it was Law and Order and it was all in the courtroom and everything, it still was about vigilantes. Yes.

[00:06:31] And about the whole concept of it and and what it does to people and why people do it and what's right and wrong about it and et cetera, et cetera. Oh, and it dances across some pretty fun fine lines, which we'll get to. It's not wasting any time. Kirk, what's your first point? That opening scene in the cell with White Tiger. It was so well done. I thought the story of the singing frogs in Puerto Rico is just wonderful.

[00:06:57] I don't know if you noticed that it just it just was beautiful, I thought. And then I thought it was cool how they brought that back and you actually hear the actual frog sounds on the beaches while they're running the credits. Yeah. And I just it just was heart wrenching. You know? Yeah. Yeah, I think Camara Delos Reyes, Delos Reyes playing White Tiger has just been fantastic.

[00:07:23] And it's very sad that, you know, he'll not be returning, but he did an amazing job in that opening scene as well as the whole episode. I also really loved how the and again, getting touching touching slightly on the religiosity of the episode. That opening scene was very reminiscent of a confessional in this little closed room together, just the two of them kind of in the dark a little.

[00:07:51] And now Matt's being the priest, you know, we saw Matt go into the confessional a lot in the first three seasons of the show and and confess and look for meaning and purpose and support from from priests. And here he is now kind of acting that role. And and the cell itself was like an actual physical confessional. So I thought that was really clear.

[00:08:17] It also that scene really helped make clear why White Tiger story was included this season. Yes. You know, it's a direct comparison with Matt as DD. It reinforces for Matt, you know, why he has stopped being DD. You know, however, Hector's proclamation that he can't stop being White Tiger because it's who he is, is a great narrative way of them reminding us that Matt has the same inner struggle about not being Daredevil.

[00:08:44] You know, no, I agree with every the reflection of me. I when I watch that scene the first time, you know, how Charlie Cox is playing this Murdoch character in this series is pretty interesting because in episode two optics, when we were watching him get beat up in the end scene of that and the scream at the end. And he's smiling when he's getting kicked initially.

[00:09:08] And then he's screaming at the end as he's battling this reflection of himself, trying not to go back to being the Daredevil character. And then you open with this scene. If you watch those scenes back to back and you have him speaking to White Tiger, saying all of the things that in reality he's just asking himself over and over again throughout the series so far. It is an interesting juxtaposition of character as I use that again.

[00:09:36] And we say that a lot in this series because you can see the parallels between all of these different characters as they head towards their ultimate ending, whatever that may be. And you see Matt telling him the vigilante is a miss that you don't need it in your life. And as we hear the story of why he White Tiger is who he is, you can see in Matt's face kind of this.

[00:10:02] Not only is he the priest, but he's also listening to this man earnestly talking like he was in the Netflix series whenever he would go to the confessional. So, yeah, I agree with you 100 percent. Well, it met, you know, and what was also really great and powerful about that scene was is he's talking to he's talking to Hector and he's trying to help Hector and he's trying to convince Hector. But he's also really taught.

[00:10:30] Well, not really, but he's also talking to himself. Sure. You know, he he's telling Hector, you know, you might find that you're not like going out anymore. You know, as White Tiger, it's as you start to recap, regain your your normal life. But he's really talking to himself, you know, to some degree. Oh, for sure. And I think Hector hits a, you know, hits a nerve when he says, you know, he can't stop being White Tiger because it's who he is. Yeah.

[00:10:59] And and and that's why Matt so desperately is trying to convince him otherwise, because he's trying to convince himself otherwise. Yeah, I have my White Tiger is my first point as well. Yeah. And go ahead. Yeah. I just I just want to say rest in peace to Kamar De Los Reyes. I watched an interview with with Michael Cuesta and he talked about the process when they picked him.

[00:11:29] And it was one another one of those. He walked in the room and immediately Cuesta said that he knew that that was the guy that he wanted to play White Tiger and that he already had cancer. He was already going through a lot of the process. And he said that he was he he was very much in tune with this character. And a lot of the pain that you see throughout was also something that he was playing with in his in his real life. And he wasn't saying that the cancer added to it.

[00:11:58] That's not what he was saying at all. He was just really impressed with the actor and how he was able to portray this character while going through all the things he was going outside in the real world. But I loved as you mentioned, he's he you know, Matt tells him you can't be White Tiger anymore. And without even hesitation, he says back to him, you know, this isn't just some random thing that I do.

[00:12:26] This is a calling. I am there to protect people. And he he he said it was such earnestness and there was no doubt that he was going to be White Tiger irregardless of what happens going forward. Should he be free, which makes what Matt does later in the episode really difficult to take, especially when you get to the outcome.

[00:12:55] But I I love this. I we talked a lot in episode two about the frustration of not getting to Matt Murdoch donning the suit. And I felt that in episode two. And I guess as I talk about it here, I'm feeling it again because we didn't like Murdoch was not physical at all in this episode.

[00:13:20] Right. But because of the way because of the weight that we had on this trial, it didn't feel as prevalent to me. It felt now now at the end of this episode, when we see what happens to White Tiger at the end, I feel like now we're as we head into the midsection of the series. And I guess ultimately who's probably going to show up in episode four or five.

[00:13:44] I think we're going to start getting the ball rolling to the superhero time period of the series, which which may be we needed this White Tiger storyline to happen. Right. Right. This is slightly different from the comic book, actually quite a bit different from the comic book. If Brian Michael Bendis did this run and this was one of next to Frank Miller, my one of my favorite kind of runs. And this was a Marvel Knights edition of it.

[00:14:14] But he's actually he's he's killed at the end of this as well. But it happens in a much different way. I love the way that they handle it in this episode, how we watch Matt kind of deal with. This passionate man who's passionate about his family, who's passionate about the character that he plays outside of being Hector Reyes and that no matter what happens, he's going to be this person, which ultimately is his demise.

[00:14:44] But I love the character and the art. I think I think I think it could have done. Don, you know, you talked about you start off talking a little bit about the superhero versus the. The the courtroom setting, you know, I think. And again, it's a time constraint and money. I understand. But all they had to do in this was have him.

[00:15:10] Put on the costume again, white tiger and actually save somebody. We should have seen that. We should have seen him being true to himself, being the hero that he had to do or had to be because it was who he was.

[00:15:28] And and and then at the end of, you know, saving some woman who then runs off or some kid or some man who goes then runs off and outs of the shadows steps this person that we see with the skull and pops him. So, you know what I mean? I mean, then we still would have had that connection to the superhero and to him.

[00:15:50] And it also would have been a celebration a little bit of his being himself and that dying, doing what was true to him was was OK. You know what I mean? My counter to that is. The Daredevil character is mired in Greek tragedy, right? Like his character is torn through so much sacrifice. We sort of get that.

[00:16:15] He walks out of the courtroom after being found not guilty and immediately that same day, at least that's what we can theorize. He puts on he dons the costume, even though we're watching Fisk and White Tiger in parallel where Fisk is essentially predicating his death while we watch him heading to his death as he dresses up in the suit.

[00:16:41] We see the amulet and and ultimately this this character walks out and shoots him in the head. I think there's a tragedy piece to this that will make I think what's coming more satisfying because I I am pissed that we didn't get to see that. But I'm also. So.

[00:17:00] Well, it just also didn't feel like he they built him up in the court case to almost be like D.D., you know, almost to be a superhero that he's got this amulet that has these special powers. And and then we finally see him put on the costume and go out to be the superhero. And he basically just walks down the street. And yeah, well, and that is a critique, right?

[00:17:24] Right. Because the amulet in real life, if you know, the White Tiger character, there's no way a guy would walk up to him and be able to do that. Right. So that is. So we don't know. We don't know what the level of power that that instills in him. But we know from Matt's discussion of it in the court case. Yeah. That it does bring special abilities. Sure. Sure. You know, he enhanced superpowers and things like that.

[00:17:47] And in the comic book, he can he has a little bit of that Matt Murdock hearing, which makes a guy walking up to him with a gun. Yeah. Not realistic. Not realistic. But and I was so that that is the gap. Right. The gap is we don't know anything about White Tiger other than him being utilized as Matt having to deal with the fact that he got this guy killed. Right.

[00:18:11] I just the point I'm trying to make, I guess, is just that the show needs to not forget that it's a superhero show. You know what I mean? And I think that Kevin Feige, from what it's from what you can read in the tabloids and everything, realized that looking at what they had produced initially two years ago for this show and said, no, this is not good. We got to. I mean, they didn't even have him in costume until like the fourth or fifth episode, supposedly. Yeah. He was just like, no, no, no, no. We got to retool this. You know what I mean?

[00:18:40] This is a this is a superhero comic. You know what I mean? Right. And that's all. I just think it was a missed opportunity to to reconnect it with its its superhero background. A hundred percent. And be consistent with the story, not just throw it in for throwing it in. You know what I mean? Yeah. Well, and that's it does now feel a little bit like a vehicle just for for Matt Murdoch. Yeah, a little bit. A little bit. More steam picking up for him to wear that daredevil outfit here pretty soon.

[00:19:10] All right. So that's our first points. We got white tiger, very short lived character, possibly. I do want to add one more thing to that before we go to our second point is that there were two characters sitting in. Yeah. That eventually do become white tiger. So it's possible we haven't seen the end of white tiger. Yeah, I think so. I think that.

[00:19:38] Well, the whole the whole the whole backbone of that character is its family tie. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So you have his niece, Angela, who just happens to be around the same age as a lot of our other younger characters, Miss Marvel and Hawkeye. And then his sister, Ava, also becomes white tiger in the comic books, who was also sitting there. So I wouldn't be surprised if we see if we don't see another version of white tiger at some point, maybe even by the end of the series.

[00:20:08] That would be awesome. That would be really awesome. But I think putting a younger character there is definitely something that we'll probably see again as we start heading towards a new a new phase of. How old? How old were the I didn't pay much attention to? I know his daughter is very young. Well, his his niece was Angela was probably 17 or 18.

[00:20:38] Oh, perfect. Yeah. And then and then the her mother, his sister, Hector's sister was sitting there as well. And about the same age as he was younger than him, actually. Right. Probably like third, late 30s, early 40s. So that would work, too. Yeah. So so perhaps you get the juxtaposition again. I got to stop using that word. I guess I'm going to be drinking game.

[00:21:01] I used to overuse that word so much that that guy, you know, when I was in the doing the podcast on biters with Jeff Mars. He used to ridicule me about it constantly. So I finally had to break myself of it. But it is it's a great word. There really isn't any. I can't think of another word that that does that. Yeah, especially in this series. But yeah, in the in the comics, we get Angela first as White Tiger, followed by Ava. So we get the niece, then the sister.

[00:21:31] Maybe perhaps we'll see a reversal of that with with Ava. Maybe we get her by the end of the series and then maybe Angela later on in a in another connect. But, you know, in the land of connectivity, Marvel fans always try to connect something to something. And I have a feeling we're not done making those connections, making those connections with this episode. But yeah. And I'd love to. And usually they also have a tendency, not a tendency, but I mean, comics in general do this. They build to a climatic battle, you know what I mean, or confrontation.

[00:22:01] And I could see where, you know, Punisher, who we know is going to pop in here, you know, a new White Tiger. They all come together to face whatever the final confrontation is that would be. I would love that. That's I mean, every comic book reader loves that. So. All right. So my second point is that I kind of touched on it in the beginning there about the integration of Matt's

[00:22:25] religious beliefs in very untraditional ways, you know, whereas it was a very literal thing in the first two seasons of the show where they spent a lot of time, you know, with his relationship with with God and with church and being raised by the minister, the priest and his mother being the nun. And just a lot, a lot, a lot, a lot of tying into that.

[00:22:48] Very obviously this seems almost vacant of it, other than a slight hint of the church we got in the first I think was in the first episode where he goes to. Is it the police? Yeah. The second at the second episode where he's tracking he's tracking the police officer. Right. He, it pans sort of from one side of the street to the other and goes from the church to the, I love, I kind of love it. I kind of loved that. I loved that.

[00:23:17] It seemed almost as if he felt pain. Yeah. Yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah. He knew that he was near there, but, but, but that all being said, it just seems like they haven't, you know, they haven't done it. But what I'm loving is that they're doing it in different ways. And that, you know, that opening scene with Hector, I point out, you know, very felt very much like a confessional. And I think that's a great example. Well, the lighting.

[00:23:44] So that yellow lighting, if you go back to episode one of the Netflix series, one of my favorite scenes, I actually use the quote from that scene at the end of each of our episodes. Where he's sitting there talking to the father and there's that yellow light poking through the confessional window and the lighting was near identical.

[00:24:06] I mean, it wasn't identical in shape because obviously the windows are different and the room is set up differently, but they use the same colors as they did in that first episode and several other episodes because obviously Matt Murdock went to the confessional a few times during that, that first Marvel series on Netflix. But yeah, I agree that that whole setup of that first scene was very reminiscent of those confessionals. I love that.

[00:24:31] And then the court has kind of become his new cathedral or slash church. And, you know, I love the scene where he enters alone early in the morning and he's bathed in sunlight through these, those beautiful windows that are very reminiscent of, of, you know, stained glass windows in a church. And he sits down in the seats and very similar. They look like pews. Yeah.

[00:24:58] I, I thought it was, I paused it because I thought, Oh no, he's walking in a church. Kirk's going to be. And I was like, Nope, that's not a church. And then I was like, Oh, they're doing it again. Cause that, that scene specifically reminded me of the, that scene you were just talking about in episode two. Yeah. I love that. That was, that might've been my favorite scene in the whole. Oh yeah. I agree. I agree. Absolutely. And it just, it had so much power. What did he have? Did he have the, was that the horn he had in his hand? Yes.

[00:25:28] He has, he comes in with his, with his stick and he fold, he leans it up against the pew. He sits down and then in his fingers, he's playing with the horn that Karen had kept from the night. God, I love that. Yeah. I love that so much. Yeah. It was beautiful. I also felt like his closing argument was a bit like a sermon. He brings out that refrain. He elicits that refrain from the white tiger because, because it was the right thing to do. I thought that was a great, powerful sequence.

[00:25:57] They keep repeating that because it was the right thing to do. It's the right thing to do. And which echoes a lot of things, you know, the famous Spider-Man philosophy with great power comes great responsibility. Of course, to have famous Marvel connection to that. And also I felt a very religious notion to, you know, you always do the right thing because it's the right thing to do. Right. Which is a very religious kind of traditional point of view. And I, I, I felt that that was echoing that same thing.

[00:26:26] And then of course the prosecutor's closing argument also felt like a sermon, you know, a good man can do bad things and a bad man can do good things. It was a wonderful. Yeah. And it perfectly echoes, of course, the current plot line with Matt and Fisk, but, but also, you know, a very sermonist, sermonistic. Is that, that's a word. I'm creating my own words here. Let's go. So that's, see, we don't even need a thesaurus.

[00:26:54] No, we have our, we, we, we just make our own words. Forget juxtapose. Just keep, you know, just keep making up words. We'll just make them up. But anyway, so I love how they're doing that. I think it's, it's powerful without being too obvious and blatant and beating you on the head about it. It, it ties in with the story. It ties in with the characters.

[00:27:24] So it's kind of weaving the religiosity into the story and the characters as opposed to, you know, making it a standout aspect of it itself. You know what I mean? Oh, for, for sure. So I, I, I, I have this very similarly kind of wrapped through all of my points, but one of my points was Matt Murdock. And I, I'll get to the full, like, reason for that in a second.

[00:27:50] But that scene, when he walks in and has the devil horn in his hand, the other subtle piece to it, the second time that I watched it, that I absolutely loved and why I initially thought it was a church is the music changed. It was a, it was, it sounded like a group of, of, of choral singers in a church. Yeah. Yeah. And it was so subtle.

[00:28:16] I didn't even notice it the first time that I watched the episode, but the confessional scene, how it was staged in this, in this episode, when he walked in and Hector was sitting underneath the light. And Matt could have sat anywhere. But what he did is he sat in the court in the opposite corner and was sitting.

[00:28:43] And I, I, you know, being a Catholic myself, I can only describe it as confessional seating. He was sitting the way you sit. And Hector was sitting the way that you sit. He was leaned over as though he were maybe kneeling, um, like in a pew, uh, confessing who he was. And I, I didn't get a confessional scene from that until you mentioned it, but definitively fits that. Yeah.

[00:29:11] That, that all of what we saw in, in the Marvel Netflix show that they smacked us in the face with this series, this season is definitely weaving that sacrifice, that faith, that commitment, uh, all of those religious themes. It's doing in a way that I feel is, is much more honoring to the viewer who is aware of who Matt Murdock is.

[00:29:37] So I, I really, I think as we, as we sit here and talk about it, I think too, it, it's, it's trying to show a progression in the character of Matt. Yeah. And that rather than, you know, leaning on religion the way he did to turn to it for help and guidance and, um, and try to understand things through it and all that. And, you know, call out to it in such a way he's now integrated it into who he is. Yeah.

[00:30:07] And, um, is, is implementing it and using it. And, um, I just think it shows growth in him. Yeah. Well, the con the constant battle that Matt Murdock has, and you mentioned it, he's no longer looking for a priest. He's being people's priests. Yes.

[00:30:29] Well, and I, you know, you have to, we'll have to question whether or not that's the smart play for him because as he's, as you talked about a few minutes ago, the making the choice, making the right or wrong choice. Which is always the battle that Matt Murdock goes through being a devil like character. Right. This daredevil character. And season two of the Marvel series, as we keep going back to this. And again, if you haven't, if you haven't watched that series, I apologize.

[00:30:59] But part of that, that one of my, you know, favorite scenes is when Frank Castle has Matt Murdock tied up on the roof. And he's, he's telling him you're daredevil. Like there's not a difference between the two of us. You're trying to make a difference between the two of us. And there's not, we do things a little bit differently, but this is who you are to get the job done. This is who you need to be.

[00:31:22] Now I can't help, but think that Frank Castle might play a similar role going forward with, with daredevil as part of his. And I don't know, I think the brilliance of the daredevil character and my favorite superhero characters always have this fine line of, if I have a guy at the top of a building who's wronged me, should I take him to the police or throw him off the roof?

[00:31:48] And probably for the first time in, in, in Matt Murdock's life, he made the choice for no other reason than his own. His friend died. So he was going to make bullseye pay for this, which I'm glad they put at the beginning because you can see that's why he stopped. And now you can see, he doesn't think that being daredevil is right, but he's witnessing other characters kind of tell him it is.

[00:32:15] Right. So I, I just, I, I love the right or the wrongness of it. I've always loved the idea of Matt Murdock being a, a religious character in that he portrays a devil. Uh, and, but on the other side of it, he's all wrapped up with this, this, this basic foundation of being a religious Catholic in, in this case.

[00:32:40] Uh, but I, I, I think that what they're doing with Matt Murdock, along with the subtleness of, of his religious background, what they're doing with him in this series is so amazing. The, the confessional that you mentioned, I loved in this episode, but they did a few subtle things just with Matt Murdock being a blind man in this series that they didn't have to do.

[00:33:06] When he was in the courthouse and we know that Matt Murdock basically functions like we do, even though he's blind, but he still plays the role. And he does that in the comic book so well. And, you know, he always carries around, um, his stick, but right. You know, when he was in the courthouse, he, the judge comes in and sits down and, uh, McDuffie, I think her name is, taps him on the arm so that he knows to sit.

[00:33:34] Right. Right. And he waits for that tap. He knows to sit. He knows that later in the episode, he's, he's cooking dinner for Heather and he's, he lifts up the pot handle and puts his hand over it. So he can tell that it's steaming. Right. He puts his finger when he's pouring the whiskey, he puts his fingers in the glass so that he knows he's not spilling it.

[00:33:57] And I, in other words, he's, he's kind of wearing a costume of behavior of behavior. Yes. Well, and this is where you get, you know, is, is what's the cost to hide who he really is.

[00:34:10] Yeah. What's the cost? Yeah. So I, but, but for a series to pay that much attention and we talked about the senses and the differences and how they're using, utilizing the senses in this series versus the previous series, it just feels like we have people who are paying attention to a character that has always needed that nuance.

[00:34:31] Because you can make Daredevil a superhero or you can make him that black or white, you know, he's never in the middle. He's always one side or the other, but the nuance of who Matt Murdock is and the nuance of who Daredevil is, is what makes this character so special.

[00:34:49] Yeah. And they're doing it so well in this series. Uh, and we're only in episode three. So, I mean, I guess it could go down further from here, but with the, uh, imminent return of Frank Castle, I can't imagine that's this case, but I love what they're doing with Matt Murdock in these first three episodes.

[00:35:04] Yeah. I had that as a point as well, but I, I was focused more on just, I just think Cox is doing an even better acting job as Matt in the past than in the past three seasons. Now, maybe to your point, maybe it's direction, maybe it's writing. Um, but his delivery, his pauses, his head gestures. Um, and then of course, like you were saying, the switching to acting blind when the people are, you know, around him is, it's just all much more riveting to watch him now, you know, um, than I

[00:35:34] remember it being in the air in the first two, three seasons. Oh, a hundred percent agree. I think so. It may be the difference that you have with a man who has lived now with his character for over 10 years. Yeah. You, you sort of. Well, and you don't get, you don't get many chances in life to redo things. You know what I mean? Or to him, to come back to them and re improve them. And, you know, he's spent years now.

[00:36:04] Almost what, 10 years since, since the last series. Right. Doesn't it be almost 10 years? Yeah. Well, yeah. 2014 is, is when the series, the original series either started filming or came out. So. So, you know, you don't get all that time to think about, God, I wish I had done this better. I wish I had done that better. And then all of a sudden knock, knock, Hey, you get to do it again. You know, holy cow. Let me, you know, let me, it could be some of that. My guess though, is, is that some of it is direction.

[00:36:29] You know, you know, that, that, that, the direction and the writing they're getting now is more paying more attention to that and saying, Hey, this is what we want you to bring to this scene is don't forget. You know, we need to do this here and you should be, you know, showing this here and all that kind of stuff. Yeah. I, I think it's a combination of a lot of different things. Sure. Yeah.

[00:36:51] We've talked about this already in the first two episodes that Charlie Cox often is overlooked because Bernthal is amazing and D'Onofrio is amazing.

[00:37:02] And Charlie Cox, who is playing this really massive role where you're blind, but can see and is so overlooked that I hope he gets his props because listening to Vincent D'Onofrio talk about him over the course of this entire series, you can tell that Charlie Cox can, is good at what he does.

[00:37:27] Because I don't think Vincent D'Onofrio says that just about anybody, but he definitely is impressed by Cox and Cox's the star. I mean, he's the star of the show, but I don't know that he's always been the star of the show. He is stealing scenes to me in this first like three episodes.

[00:37:47] But I also think that the law side of it is sort of the first three episodes were built for him to as looking like Charlie Cox without a suit on, he gets an opportunity to do it. But I think he's just doing a tremendous job.

[00:38:30] Yeah, absolutely. His law partner, Kristen, what the heck is it? It's McDuffie, right? McDuffie, yeah, right. And, you know, just subtle things, you know. I just think they surround him with great people and they're all rising to the occasion, you know. I love that Cherry is painful. Everything he does, it feels like he's asking himself, how did I get myself into this? Yeah, yeah.

[00:39:00] You feel that, right? You feel that. But it's... Or when McDuffie looks back at him, when Matt goes off the rails and starts, you know, confessing about who White Tiger is. And he's just like, fucking A, here we go. You know, here we go. You can see it. He's like, I have no idea. Look at me. That was definitely not part of the plan. Yeah. It's pretty brilliant stuff, yeah.

[00:39:27] And I guess my final little piece of Murdoch here is he makes a choice to out White Tiger. He tells him he can't be White Tiger anymore. And we know that Hector's going to be White Tiger. And I think it's another one of those choices that Matt makes to get the job done. And unfortunately, it does lead to Hector's death at the end scene.

[00:39:51] So how Matt Murdoch, what he does with this information going into episode four, I think, is my biggest question mark as we go forward. Aside from the fact that we don't, yeah, we haven't seen a whole lot of one-on-one antagonism yet between Daredevil and whoever the big bads are going to be.

[00:40:14] Well, you also, the lesson maybe is, too, that you have to be careful if you're going to start to position yourself as somehow a spiritual leader, which I think is kind of set up in this episode. And you have to be careful not to get high on your own supply, you know what I mean?

[00:40:42] In other words, he's convinced himself that what's most important is that he saves him from this trial. But he's not, like, to your point, he's not accepting the fact that this guy, he's not really listening to him. I mean, in that confessional opening scene, he's confessing to him, look, dude, I am the White Tiger. That's who I am. So, you know, I can't stop being that. You know, I got to do what I got to do. You got to do what you got to do.

[00:41:10] But Matt's like, oh, he'll listen to me and we're going to get him off and I'm going to do a great job and then everything will be okay. And it's like, dude, that's not very observant of what's happening around you. You know what I mean? This guy's telling you, if you do this, I'm still going to go back. Which he should know that. He should know that. Yeah, exactly. But that's the point. Yeah, I agree.

[00:41:36] But what happens when you start to deny part of your personality is that you miss things like that. You know what I mean? I mean, he's in a bit of denial himself. So he doesn't want to see that about himself. So he's choosing not to see it in Hector. Yeah. When he's just Matt Murdock, he's just not himself. Which is 100% true. Which is one of the Glories of this character. Yeah. Alright.

[00:42:04] We're going to see it.

[00:42:36] We're going to get it through two points. Yeah, two points. The third is a little bit more generic. Just kind of the overall. And we've kind of hit on a lot of it. So I'll just kind of do a quickie thing here. It's just the overall storytelling, plotting, and the performances. We talked a lot about the performances already. So I won't go into that. But, you know, some of the storytelling, you know, like continuing the cross comparison of Matt and Fisk with that cut scene in the beginning with the camera locked in on Fisk's bloody knuckles at the breakfast.

[00:43:05] And then it's cut to Matt's washing his hands with the bloody knuckles in the sink, you know, in the courthouse. And I just, you know, just little things like that are great storytelling techniques. They're very comic book-esque. And it's beautiful, beautiful storytelling. So what do you think about the bloody knuckles, though, at this point? Oh, I just think it's metaphorical.

[00:43:25] I don't even know if it's metaphorical, but just look, these inner personalities of these two characters are struggling to get out. And I see the bloody knuckles as just being representative of that kind of literal, almost like tearing through your skin to get out. You know what I mean? So do you yet think Kingpin has someone somewhere that he's punching?

[00:43:51] No, I think it's more just, you know, they're more like, almost like scabs. Like, this is who he is. He's beat people in the past. So they're healing. Yeah, I saw it more as kind of like healing. All right, I'm going to counter that. Okay.

[00:44:14] So that cut scene that you talk about, we cut to Matt, who has literally just beat up the cop that he's about to talk to in the bathroom. Right. I'm telling you, there's some punching going on somewhere. I think that the juxtaposition there was telling us, okay, here's Matt's bloody knuckles. It looked just like Kingpin's bloody knuckles. We know what Matt did, but we still don't know.

[00:44:38] Now, two episodes in a row of seeing these knuckles, there's someone, either Adam's getting the tar kicked out of him on a daily basis from Kingpin, this mysterious Adam character, or there's a wall somewhere. Right. That has a lot of holes in it. I just, I think that we're, I think that we're going to get to see this and, and I kind of, I hate to say it, but I kind of hope it's Adam. Okay. Sorry. No, I mean, you, you could definitely be right.

[00:45:04] Um, I think that it was interesting that this opening scene with him at breakfast again, like the opening scene we had last episode with breakfast, we did upside down. This one was straight. This was straight up. Yep. Uh, we got a reflection though, in the table. Yep. Yep. It was a reflection, but a reflection is less. It's, it's more, again, it's more of a transition to the straight, straight up than the fact that we were completely upside down and had to turn around. Yes.

[00:45:31] Um, so it's, it's moving that direction as we had talked about last episode. Um, also you had me noticing the upside down things today, cause we got justice upside down later in the episode. Right. Which, and then I think that, uh, I could be wrong, but it seemed to me like his portions were slightly larger. I, I, I actually, I actually paused a couple of times because I didn't, but maybe there's still egg whites though. Oh yeah.

[00:46:00] Still egg whites, but it does seem like there was more on that plate than when we saw it the first time. Um, and then, um, he just felt more confident and more in charge. Whereas the, the, the last time we saw this breakfast shot, he seemed kind of out of it. You know what I mean? Kind of, you know, just kind of in a daze. He didn't seem like he was in charge.

[00:46:27] He was being more definitive than that scene to talking, talking to Vanessa. And that's a, he was saying, you can't do this because I'm doing this. Right. And, you know, I, I feel a lot better about my theory now. He needs the chaos so that he can, you know, which is. He can be the quote unquote good guy. Yeah. With whatever he's doing. What's so terrifying is that, you know, we're, we're sitting here having this conversation.

[00:46:52] Meanwhile, the world is on fire and our country is burning and, you know, for, and Fisk is at the controls and creating chaos so that he can take credit for fixing it. Yeah. You know, it's not, it's not, it's incredibly literal metaphor. Well, this was filmed in 2023, which is kind of crazy. It would be stopping you think about it. Very crazy. Yeah.

[00:47:20] And I thought that you, you mentioned the, the, the fact that he and Fisk, he and Vanessa kind of have a confrontation in that breakfast and don't see eye to eye and are kind of undermining each other a lot in this episode. That to me adds more credence to your amazing theory. Yeah. Last episode that she probably hired bullseye in order to set up a situation where Daredevil would want to go after Fisk for breaking the promise. So I, I love that theory.

[00:47:48] And I, I saw that as more confirmation that's possible. I want to throw in here too. It well, initially, initially in born again, they hired as different actresses to play Vanessa. So they filmed shots with the old Vanessa. And then when they, again, when they, they got the new regime back in, they brought back our Vanessa. Right.

[00:48:09] And I think they did that for a reason just to kind of connect to everything that you're saying here, because I can't imagine anyone else portraying this character at this point, because she fits the bill as someone who can be in love with this man, but also want the same, want to want the power of this man at the same time. It's, it's. Well, what the question is, what is she in love with? Is she in love with the man or is she in love with the power? And it's initially, it seemed like it was the man now with this season, I'm starting to question that.

[00:48:39] Yeah. I, well, yeah, I, there was, I think she was always attracted to the power. Oh, for sure. I think she was. Yeah. If you watch how she becomes interconnected with him. Yeah. I, I, I agree a hundred percent. I loved them having that like conversation and talking about their problems and solving a problem, solving their relationship together before meeting with the doctor, because with the doctor, they can't speak as freely. Yeah. And I thought that was hilarious.

[00:49:09] You know what I mean? I still can't figure that out. I, I can't get it out of my head that choosing Heather Glenn wasn't on purpose. You mean the, the, the, the character that's being the psychologist? Yes. Yeah. I mean, it just so happens that your psychologist is Matt Murdoch's new girlfriend. Yeah. Well, there seems to be. And, and if you remember.

[00:49:35] I know, I don't think it's going to, I don't think it'll be, but I think it is almost an unconscious thing. They're just attracted to each other. These two characters. Oh, hold, hold on. Hold on. Hold on. All right. All right. Let me rain, let me rain it in. Do you remember who asked Heather Glenn to be their psychologist? It was Buck and his, the lawyer, the Wesley character in this, in this series. Right. Right.

[00:50:00] And if you, and Buck had one of the, the, the most subtle scenes, I think in this episode when he met with two rival gangs. Yeah. The two rival gangs. Right. And he said, I'm not here with the mayor. I don't work for the mayor. I work for the man. And then we find out in that scene that you were just talking about when she says, I sent Buck to do what you told me not to. And I was like, oh, so Buck went and got Heather.

[00:50:27] And I was like, oh, so imagine you're Vanessa.

[00:50:58] Vanessa. Yeah. Because remember, Buck. Yeah. Yeah. That ties right in. You got it. Yeah. So, so we were talking about, and I can't remember. But Buck makes it clear he's working for Kingpin. So when he's. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. I don't agree with that. I don't agree with that. I think he's working for Kingpin, but I think he very clearly works for Vanessa too. Yeah, he does.

[00:51:23] But I think that's why when he says that, when he says, I don't work for the mayor, I work for the man. Yeah. He's, he's saying, I work for Kingpin. I don't think that's what he's saying. To me, I think he's saying that because I think Kingpin knows full well what she did. He knows exactly what she did. She, he knows everything. I, I don't know what she's trying to do. And he's trying to tell her you can't do that.

[00:51:47] But he didn't stop him because he doesn't, you know, he doesn't want to interrupt with her directly. He just, he just knows everything. I, I don't know, man. I don't know. I don't think, I think when he said the man, he was, he was talking about Vanessa, but that's just me. Okay. Well, we'll see. I got to make, listen, I got to make my theory work here. Well, I think your theory works.

[00:52:14] I, I, I, regardless, I don't think that, I don't think that changes things, but it is an interesting added element to your theory. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway. And that she would know that, um, that that was Matt's girlfriend and, and set that up on purpose. But I don't, I don't see how that would, other than if he finds out it's going to help send Fisk over the edge. Yeah. Maybe you're right. I see. I see where you are. She wants her old, she wants, she either wants to be in charge or she wants her old Kingpin back.

[00:52:44] Correct. I gotcha. I gotcha. I gotcha. All right. Anyway, sorry. I didn't mean to interrupt. No problem. I only have one other. Well, you're talking sense. I'm talking nonsense. So I just want to, for all you listening out there. And yet, and yet, and yet your nonsense is making more sense than my sense. I, I, I think. Okay. Listen, I only have one more point. Let me fucking make it.

[00:53:10] I thought the car switch with the witness was absolute perfection. The, the, you kind of, you know, they just build this tension that, that, you know, he's, he's going to get to the witness. He's going to get to the witness. He's going to get to the witness and they're not going to get it in time and it's all going to fall apart. And then they get there and, you know, he's switched the fucking car and you're like, oh, they outsmart. That's such good.

[00:53:38] And then he comes in and you're like psyched. You're relieved. Okay, cool. This is going to go down. And then the guy doesn't fucking testify. Yeah. And it was just wonderful writing. Cause it's like, it lines you up for a kick in the stomach and then rewards you with, oh, you're not going to get kicked in the stomach. And then it kicks you in the stomach. I thought that was, that was great writing. I think that continuing from there, Matt knocks out of the park with his closing, as you mentioned. And then the DA knocks out of the park with his and you're sitting there.

[00:54:08] There was legit courtroom drama. Yeah. You didn't know which way it was going to go. And this is, this is what, you know, comparing it to law and order is probably understating what, what this episode was because it definitely was a little more prestige. There was definitive tension from the time that they bring, uh, I can't remember what his name was, that the witness to the courtroom or something. Yeah. All the way to the end of that episode.

[00:54:37] It was that slow build to is the witness going to get there? Is Matt going to be able to save it now that the witness didn't testify is the jury going to back the vigilante or the cop? And then I think as white tiger, as Hector was walking out of the courtroom, then you immediately switch to, oh, he's going to die, isn't he? Yeah.

[00:55:05] And, and it was, as you mentioned, beautifully done, beautifully done, uh, by, by the actors and by the direction for sure. Hmm. Hmm. And I love to the, the scene when they call the recess and, and he goes back into the chambers with the, with the prosecution. And yeah, I was, it was great. And they just rip him up one side on the other. And it was great dialogue. Well, written. It was tense. It was believable. Um, it was well done.

[00:55:34] And it was, that was well done too. Yeah. Well, and it shows going back to Murdoch. I didn't even think about this. This is the brilliance of his, is of who he is as a lawyer, knowing full well that they couldn't end the trial at that point. And they couldn't call a mistrial. He played every hand that he had. And unfortunately, as you noted, he didn't think far enough ahead to realize what hand he did play. Actually, he saved him and killed him at the same time. You know what I mean?

[00:56:01] But, but he also, if another way to look at it though, Hector, I assumed would, would want to have gone out doing what he loved doing and who he was as a person sitting and rotting in jail. Yeah. I, but he didn't, he didn't, I mean, he didn't die fighting and saving someone. He was assassinated. Yeah. Well, they tried to build the weight of it.

[00:56:27] I think having the two stories being told of Fisk saying that he's got to take care of vigilantes his own way and a white tiger suiting up and going out. Yeah. They tried to build the tension. But I think, again, in a land of 18 episodes, maybe you have an opportunity to do that.

[00:56:51] And when you cut a season down to one and then you have new showrunners take over who are going to completely retool what those second half, that second season is going to be. I think maybe, maybe you have to cut things short. They could have saved that by having him actually save someone. Yeah. And then added in the superior element and we see a little bit of how the amulet works. We see him, you know, actually, you know, save somebody and we get a fight scene and then, then we get the assassination. Yeah.

[00:57:20] The Punisher logo makes two appearances, obviously the climactic one, but it was also painted on the wall. The hideout where the witness was. Three appearances. Yeah. There's the one on the wall that's painted on the wall of the hideout that the guys, the witness is hiding in. Yeah. And then there's the one on the chest plate or the guy that assassins. The one on the guy's neck who says that we have to take care of Torres, not Torres. Oh yeah. Yeah. Torres. You're right. You're right.

[00:57:46] And that one was interesting because they're all a little different, right? Yeah. Like they're, so the tattoo on the neck had a flag on it. If you paused it and looked, there was like a little flag on the top of it. The, the muse mural that was on the wall that, that had the statue of Liberty as the teeth. That was kind of cool. That was cool. I also, I didn't know. I, I, I just watched the first episode. I didn't realize that was a muse mural until I watched it again.

[00:58:15] And I paused it because the teeth looked funny. And then I saw the muse had signed it, tagged it. Um, so muse had made that one. And then the, the, of course the, the plate, uh, on the chest of, of the Punisher character at the end. Oh, the assassin. I don't think that's the Punisher. Oh, for sure. Not for sure. Not. I mean, I think that's why Punisher is going to show up. Oh. Yeah. Well now stop these guys from using his imagery. Yeah.

[00:58:42] The questions that we had in episode two of how are we going to get Frank Castle involved in this? I think it's been answered for sure. I can't wait. I can't wait. You know, it was interesting because, um, there was a real phenomenon with that in the comics in that, um, yeah, they, they actually changed it. Yeah. Yeah. For the, because cops were doing that and the writers of the stories and stuff were like, they don't, you know, that, that's not what this is about. You know what I mean? Yeah.

[00:59:12] And I, I, I mean, they're back. I believe that they, they, cause they used more of a samurai thing for it. Correct. Uh, it has like horns now or something. I don't know if they're still using it that way, but. But I, I, I love that the show is utilizing that real life piece to this. And, and I don't know about the current comics at all, whether or not that, that this is actually a part of it. But, um, I, I do love that, that they're, they're tackling this head on.

[00:59:41] Um, especially in the cauldron that we're in right now, it's, it's a brave new world. So I appreciate that they're, they're taking this on and I can't wait to see where this goes. Yeah, he does look, it, it looks kind of like, um, a skull with horns and, and, and long like fangs. Yeah. And I think that the theory behind that is they wanted it more of a, uh, a Japanese kind of. Samurai. Aspect to it. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:00:11] Cause I, I think at some point, uh, in the comic run of Punisher in recent years, he's connected in some way to like the hand. All right. Well, I, my next point is we've kind of gone back and forth, not really back and forth. We're both on the same page. We need to see Daredevil soon. But as I watched this episode and you sort of see where we're going, there's a slow burn tension to it that I'm starting to appreciate.

[01:00:40] Now they can take it too far. Um, but I do think that the slow burn tension right now, depending on what they do in four or five and six is good. And let me explain what I'm saying about that. They're setting, it seems to me like they are doing a nice job of setting up two full seasons of shows. If it takes them seven episodes to do it, my tap will change quite a bit.

[01:01:07] As a matter of fact, if we don't have more direction in episode four with where we're going, I think that this might completely flip on a dime and I might have a whole different take next week. But I love that we have these multiple arcs that are all slowly converging and we have no idea where they're going to converge. We have Fisk as this big potential big bad who's always there.

[01:01:35] But right now he feels like this season may just be a setup for him for season two to become who he, we know him to be. We have the Punisher cops and while I think I know where they're going with this, that they've, the hints that they've given us in the first three episodes let me know that this is not going to be something that takes us a long time to get to. I think this is what's leading us to Frank Castle coming back into the story, as you mentioned.

[01:02:03] And then we have obviously Muse, who has been described as the big bad so far, but hasn't even made an appearance other than potentially being an autograph seeker for Heather Glenn in episode, I believe, two.

[01:02:23] So I love that we aren't even sure what we're going to get, but have had plenty of drama intention just with Matt dealing with Foggy and episodes one, two and three to kind of tide us over. I have a feeling with the way that the next three episodes are scheduled to come out. Things are about to take a turn, though.

[01:02:44] I think as some of these Marvel shows historically do, these mid-episodes are going to send us down a path. Because next week we have episode four coming out, and then the following week we have five and six coming out. So I do feel like we're going to get what we want as we're going.

[01:03:07] But I think that the showrunners are being smart with how they're slowing down the pace now and are about to send us into chaos theory heading into these final six episodes. We'll see. I mean, I think the double episode is because of the timing. They don't want to conflict with a Star Wars show, right? Yeah, well, so the theory is that they want this show finished before Andor comes out.

[01:03:36] However, what Marvel does tend to do is they like to group shows together that fit together. So when they put one and two together, that made sense. And then we got the trial episode and episode three. Four seems to be a set-up episode for five and six. And, you know, spoiler alert, my guess is we get a taste of Frank Castle in episode four, and we get full-on fucking Punisher in five and six, along with Daredevil.

[01:04:05] I think four we're going to find out. Well, they better get Mews in here pretty soon. Well, I wonder. Is Mews going to end up being the second season? No, I think we've seen too much in trailers. We're getting Mews in season one. My question is, is he only going to be in season one? Yeah.

[01:04:29] So they're already filming season two right now, so I'm good with however they end it, as long as we get Daredevil. I think that, kind of to blend in another point that I was going to make, I think the fact that they added episode one was shot completely separate of the original shooting.

[01:04:52] Adding episode one to go along with two and three, if they would have started with two and three, I see why Feige stepped in. Because putting episode one as episode one, instead of having two and three as your opener, without Daredevil ever showing up, I think that it gave us our pace for this show. We come out of the gate running. We slow down.

[01:05:18] We see the torture that Matt's going through now that his friend has passed away. We see now the torture that he's going to go through now that this character died because of him. We see the Punisher getting set up for these murders. And now we're going to get, again, Frank Castle and Matt Murdock converging in episode four, sending us forward for our final five of season one. I think it's beautiful. All right. Do we have another point? I do not. All right.

[01:05:47] I've got one more. Okay, let's go. And my last point here is separation. And again, it kind of fits in with my last point. The scene with Fisk, which we really haven't talked about was in Fisk a whole lot in this episode. That first scene with him sitting at that table opposite of Vanessa, who was at the table, but now completely apart from him. And you're going to probably have to help me out with this.

[01:06:17] But if I remember correctly, the first time that they spend the night together in the Marvel series, there's a breakfast scene where Vanessa. Yeah. He cooks her an omelet. Yeah. And she's hugging him. And he's sitting at that long table that he had at his old apartment, but she sat next to him as opposed to apart from him. Yeah. And I loved that they set us up with that separation right out of the gate.

[01:06:47] And how it blends in with my other point is this way. The first three episodes are all dealing with the separation of Matt from Daredevil, from Wilson Fisk and Kingpin, from our friends of Matt Murdoch and Matt Murdoch, one who's now dead, seemingly dead. And Karen, who's gone, hopefully comes back soon. But we're dealing with all of these separation. And I think that probably the fans that are getting pissed off is they don't want that anymore.

[01:07:15] And I look at it as in a nine-episode season, I'm okay with the separation as long as you don't have to be separated for too long. I'm looking at it as sort of like the three or four months leading up to a good fight, a good boxing match where you see videos of someone talking trash about the other one, where we're seeing Matt sort of talking trash about, you know, you can't be a vigilante anymore. And then you have Fisk.

[01:07:43] Fisk, I need to be a mayor now. It feels like this rubber band's about to snap. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, the only thing I'm concerned about is that I liked the idea that we theorized that Fisk and Matt are going to have to come together to fight Muse. I still think that. And what Muse is doing. And I did think that up until the end of this episode.

[01:08:13] And I'm kind of like, well, it's taking an awful long time to get there, especially if you haven't even established, you know, the bad guy. Now, I suppose, you know, first they want to establish that Fisk is just so anti, that his whole thing is anti-vigilante.

[01:08:31] But then, you know, if they introduce Muse and the police can't do anything or are unable to get anywhere, you know, the vigilantes might actually be able to accomplish the task. So, therefore, he has to kind of bond with them for a period of time or team up with them kind of a period of time in order to accomplish what he wants, which is to look like he saved the city. Yeah.

[01:08:58] Here's where I think they're going, you know, if we're going to map it out. And this is probably too cut and dry, but you'll see where I'm going with this. So we've gotten little dips into the muse pool, per se, in episodes one through three. We may have met him. We may not have. We've gotten the murals with the muse on the side. We've gotten our little, like, cup of tea.

[01:09:22] While that's taking part, we see Fisk becoming the mayor and trying to walk a fine line of being, quote unquote, good, doing the right thing, but still being a kingpin of swords. He's a mayor now. And you have Murdoch being a lawyer now. And both of them are not being who they are. So you have that tension slowly brewing.

[01:09:50] So that's a second story. And I'll interconnect the Vanessa story into that one. Then you have this Punisher story being built with tattoos and with the mural and with now the murder of Vigilante by a character wearing the Punisher garb. I think what we're going to get is, so the first three were setting the stage of all of the separation.

[01:10:17] The second three, I think what we're going to get is Frank Castle and Daredevil dealing with these cops that are mimicking who they think the Punisher is. And then while that's happening, I think we're going to start to learn who Muse actually is. And then the final three episodes, we're going to attack to the Muse character who full-fledged becomes a serial killer.

[01:10:43] And who he impacts and who he kills, I think, is going to potentially put our two main characters together on the same side. That's my theory. Well, that's a good theory. I like that. Do you think Heather Glenn is short for this world? I think that wouldn't the parallel be the end of Heather Glenn and the end of Vanessa? Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah, that would be the parallel. Which would put us to, I mean, you know, again.

[01:11:14] Spoilers! Well, that would also kick the two of them, the two protagonists over the edge. Yeah. Yeah. So they work together until they can't. All right. Well, we've got that. We don't even need to watch it anymore. It's all solved. All right. And that ends the podcast. There you go. See, we probably just gained a couple of fans because I said that. Do you have any notes? No. That's it.

[01:11:41] I only have one note, and that would be Red Hook. Red Hook. I'm just trying to piece this all together. You know, we keep, you know, Red Hook is what I think got Foggy killed. And Vanessa seems intertwined with Red Hook. Well, yeah. I mean, the Red Hook is, I don't, I mean, either I didn't really pay a lot of attention to it. But it's basically a geographical area that is kind of a no man's land. Is that correct? Yeah.

[01:12:10] And that the different gangs are kind of fighting over the territory a little bit. And Fisk wants it for something. We just don't know what. We don't know what. We don't know what. But it does feel like it's the fulcrum of a lot that's happening. We just don't know why yet or what yet. Yeah. I think if I remember right, and I don't, I think that whatever got Benny in trouble was at Red Hook. And I think that's why Foggy had hidden him.

[01:12:40] Okay. And when we were talking, when they were talking at the beginning, there definitely seemed to be something going on that Foggy was uncovering about Red Hook. It felt that way to me. And I'd have to watch episode one again to figure out what that was.

[01:12:58] But I do think that Red Hook, if we get Foggy back in any way, I think it'll either be he's hidden right now and going to come back in season two, or he's dead and we get the backstory of how he was intertwined with Red Hook. That's what I think. I like, the BB cuts are growing on me a little bit.

[01:13:23] I didn't care for them in the beginning, where we get the little random interviews with people, the man on the street, interviews with people. Those are growing on me. I just like the way it feels. It feels very New York to me. Yeah.

[01:13:43] And I thought it was interesting that he's smart, he's savvy enough, Fisk, to know that he's going to get more mileage by going with a contemporary social media-based news platform. Yeah. Plus he can kind of troll the message a little bit more. Yeah. And that's cool. And I like that they're doing that. But I feel like they've done nothing with that character. We haven't met that character. We know nothing about her.

[01:14:13] And yet she's related to one of the standout characters of the original series. Yes. So I feel they're dropping the ball there a little bit. Well, but it could again be that slow burn that we talked about earlier. I think the reason why I'm so sure in my head that Buck is going to be working with Vanessa is because I feel like Daniel Blake. Daniel Blake.

[01:14:37] He went to Daniel to, instead of his assist, the other lady that was normally the person that he would go to. Right. So I sort of feel like Gandolfini is slowly going to work himself into, like you said, the Wesley character from those first seasons where this Buck character is a little more, seems a little more complex to me.

[01:15:00] That I think it might be he's on the side of Vanessa and Blake ends up kind of taking over that role of somebody that he actually trusts as opposed to somebody that he doesn't. But I definitely feel like that's a character that could play a bigger part. And you wonder if she got lost in a shuffle of two regimes because there's got to be hits there for sure. All right. We're going to take a break. There's more to come. So stay with us.

[01:15:39] All right. Welcome to Hell's Kitchen Confidential, where not only are we going to talk about Daredevil news, but Kirk has told me he's going to cook me an egg white omelet. So I'm looking forward to that. You have to eat it upside down, though. Hey, look, I'm a pretty talented guy. All right. All right. So our first article is the ratings. Disney is horrific with putting out ratings. They usually keep them to the best. Most of the streamers are. Yeah.

[01:16:09] They really are. The first time I really noticed them making a pointed reason for putting out numbers was that Agatha All Along came out because they put out seven day numbers for Agatha All Along and it did 9.3 million, which was a big uptick, especially for a series that didn't cost them a whole lot to make. It was more literally a great grassroots series for Marvel.

[01:16:35] I mean, they still spent millions, but comparatively speaking, not not as many millions as they did for shows like Daredevil. Right. They put after they put five day numbers out for Daredevil and Daredevil after five days did 7.5 million. And in comparison, they compared it to Paradise, which after nine days had done 7 million.

[01:17:00] So so Daredevil is definitely getting the views that they want to see. And it's definitely in line with Agatha All Along, which is good to see because it justifies the season two and potentially more seasons beyond. I know that I've heard rumblings that the people in charge now have a five or six season kind of arc in mind, which would be pretty neat. And it looks like it's it's getting the numbers to justify that. So have they fallen off for episode three?

[01:17:30] We'll probably never know. But so far, so good. I know that they continue to talk about numbers with Agatha All Along. So if we don't hear numbers going forward, we can probably take that as a maybe not good sign. But right now it feels like Daredevil is picking up right where it left off when it was on Netflix. OK, so there as we discussed earlier, there's been some changes to the release schedule.

[01:17:53] And in case you skipped over this part in our discussion a few minutes ago, just want to let people know that the next episode, which is March 18th, will be a single episode, episode four. But then on March 25th, they will release five and six together. So as we as Jim, as you speculated, you think that's partly to do because the momentum for setting up five and six.

[01:18:18] I'm not sure it may also have to do with the Star Wars release of and or season two. But just want to make sure people people remember that. I also had some. I think historically they've done that before, too. I think Agatha All Along, if I remember correctly, they ended up doing the last two episodes of that together and they weren't initially supposed to do that. So my hinting suspicion here is that we get five and six together.

[01:18:45] Then we get seven by itself and then probably eight and nine together as well. In addition, I got a little bit of Marvel news. It's unrelated to Daredevil, but I thought it was pretty it's pretty current, pretty cool, pretty interesting. Sadie Sink, Sadie Elizabeth Sink, who is an American actress who played Max Mayfield in the Netflix series Stranger Things and is a great actress.

[01:19:14] She has been cast in the new upcoming Spider-Man 4, which is got it. And it's going to be a significant role. It's not some small role. So people are speculating as to what it is. She is a is a redhead, which is, of course, what Mary Jane is in the comics. So there's also speculation about that. But I think I think they've done they've pretty clearly established Sunday as MJ. So I don't see them doing that.

[01:19:43] But there's also rumor that she could be playing Jean Grey, which would be pretty cool because they I think they're trying to try to bring in X-Men, some X-Men in peripheral roles so that they can use them as part of Secret Wars. And Jean Grey would be would be awesome. And I think she'd be great.

[01:20:05] Plus, age wise, it's perfect, because if you remember when Marvel started, you know, most of the cast that they picked were all young actors because they got to you know, they got to take roles that are going to hopefully be 10, 15, 20 years. So she'd be perfect for that. There's also, I suppose, the possibility that they could do a cool switch where she plays Gwen Stacy as a redhead instead of Gwen Stacy's traditionally always this blonde character.

[01:20:35] But she's a big romantic love interest of Spider-Man and, of course, had a fateful demise. But but interesting because I think she's a great actress and I love to see her becoming part of the Marvel Universe. Oh, man, I'm so excited about the these next installments of Spider-Man simply because we do have we're going off into a different direction where Spider-Man gets to be.

[01:20:59] It seems like he's going to get to be a little more of that original, like, you know, kind of daredevil, grassroots street level. Street level superior. Yeah, which which I can't believe I forgot this note. But this is a perfect segue to mention this with your news is that that wonderful scene with Matt Murdoch giving his closing arguments. He mentions a bunch of cops and one of the cops that he mentions is Officer Morales.

[01:21:27] Now, if you know the comic book, you know that in the comic book version, Miles Morales, his father's name, Jefferson Davis. But in the comic book, he actually changes his name to Morales in the movie version. I'm pretty sure. And I don't know this to be true, but I think in the movie version, I think his name is Jefferson Morales. But I could be wrong. It is animated. Yeah.

[01:21:51] Yeah, I and it's been established, I think, by Marvel that at the end of that. Series of movies, they are going to start incorporating several of the characters from the Miles Morales run into their Spider-Man stories. Now. Does that mean Miles Morales is coming at some point? I would.

[01:22:15] It would be Tom Holland has expressed every way he can how much he thinks that he would love to become the, you know, the Iron Man to the Miles Morales Spider-Man. Right. So I think that I think that this would this that as you mentioned, bringing these or in the in the in the animated movie, there's Peter B. Peter B. Barker, who is, which is the Spider-Man that helps train him. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:22:43] So I just I there's there's so much hope with the with all of these characters going forward that that we get this these brand new stories that intertwine in a great and wonderful way. Also, did you notice did you pick up on the when when Fisk is listing the vigilantes? You know. Oh, yeah. Yeah. He lists go, you know, dressing up as in a spider outfit. Yeah.

[01:23:11] So, you know, they're they're they're already kind of establishing him as street level kind of vigilante superhero and the daredevil kind of vein. Well, there if you've watched any of the interviews, everybody is pounding Charlie Cox and Vincent D'Onofrio on potential. Surprises in the series. And yeah, they're of course, they haven't said anything, but my gosh, do they look uncomfortable when they get asked that question?

[01:23:40] And of course, they're going to normally be uncomfortable. But I listen, did Matt? What if we get what if we get like we were theorizing at the top of this podcast that they may be building towards an ending where you've got, you know, you've got to have people come together and maybe we get White Tiger back as a different, you know, one of his different family members. But what if we also got Spider-Man? Yeah. Well, hey, what where did Matt Murdock show up first in the MCU?

[01:24:11] Aside from the Netflix show. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Spider-Man. Yeah. So I think I think there's potential. I think there's potential. I think the other thing to keep in mind is that the Spider-Man four is on the slate as one of the I think only two film slots and they haven't said what the other one's going to be that take place between Doomsday and Secret Wars.

[01:24:38] And if the Doomsday ends with them establishing a battle world kind of scenario for those people who are familiar with the comics. And, you know, Spider-Man four could take place in that world or in that universe or that environment. And therefore, you could have a whole bunch of multiversal characters show up. Oh, gosh. You know what I mean?

[01:25:07] I'm so excited. And I think there's been a lot of rumor about how Sony really wants to be able to bring back some of the other two Spider-Men because of the success that they had with that in the in the last Spider-Man. And no way home. And, you know, maybe they're going to bring back other, you know, universe other multiversal characters. And maybe that's who she'll play as a character. Maybe she'll be MJ from there's an MJ in the comics or MJ does.

[01:25:36] Mary Jane does develop actually a superhero character for a while. Yeah, for sure. And, you know, so maybe that'll that'll be what happens. How are we lucky enough to live in a world where this is all coming to be?

[01:25:52] The 12 year old me who collected every Daredevil comic he could get his hands on and all the team ups and was so pissed off that he wasn't in the first Marvel superhero Secret Wars, aside from being on the street level. But who loved that series. That series got me into all of the other series, the X-Men series that. Right.

[01:26:18] And and Avengers and even those new ones like the West Coast Avengers and New Mutants and stuff like that that all came out because it was the 25th anniversary of Marvel at the time. And how am I so lucky that I've lived long enough that we're actually going to see movies based on this? Now, I don't know. Maybe I'm unlucky because maybe they're going to suck. But I don't there's not a world in which I'm not going to be happy. I just the fact that they're I think I think it's just I think it's just timing.

[01:26:45] I think that, you know, it's the it's the evolution of comics and the evolution of film media. And that I think comic book loyal fans and readers, you know, who sat back and watched these horrible renditions of their characters getting mistreated and poorly done and just tragic film adaptions.

[01:27:15] Whische grew up and said, you know, I'm going to go into that industry. And I'm going to I'm going to do it differently. You know what I mean? If I ever get the chance. Yeah, I mean, you know, the people who got involved in the early hero movies like Kevin Feige, who started out on the X-Men at Fox, you know, they saw what the mistakes that were being made and said to themselves, if I get a chance, I'm going to do it different.

[01:27:43] And then I think it just steamrolled because, uh, once they started doing it correctly, it got, it just blew up because you had this audience that had grown up on these characters had been abused basically by their terrible representation. And we're going to be incredibly loyal, just like they were to the comic books, to these movies and, and, and shower money all over them. Um, so, and they kind of figured it out. They, instead of going, you know, they,

[01:28:12] they bought the rights to the characters at Fox, but then they bastardized them because you had people who had no idea what comics were about making them. And I think that then when they Marvel started doing it right and they kind of said, okay, um, now we know how it's gotta be done. Um, hence why you've got the big changes at DC. You know what I mean? Where they got rid of all that and brought in someone who really understands comics. So, so excited about that too. James, I mean, James Gunn, give me, give me a, hopefully that'll,

[01:28:41] yeah, hopefully that'll, I, I, I have such high hope for this, the Superman movie. And as you know, we're really like steamrolling in this news section, but I'm so excited for the DC side of things. You know, I, I, I, I, James Gunn did such a service to guardians of the galaxy, a comic book. I never touched that. Now I read because of James Gunn and all three of those movies hold a special

[01:29:08] place where they're all three very different movies and they all kind of touch every string of being a son that I've, I is so, so brilliantly told and, and how we shift perspective, uh, and guardians three. And you can tell when he talks about, you know, and I, I don't, you know, Kirk and I are, you know, we're basically the reason why these are so long y'all is because we're meeting each other right now is as far as our fandom goes. But I, I, I grew up in Cleveland.

[01:29:38] So I started off as a DC guy just because of the roots in Cleveland. We're always Superman. And, um, I, if, if they can get this right, if they can get this right, if James Gunn gets this right, it's going to be, it's going to lift up superhero movies so much for me. Cause you know, the roots for me and probably for you too, Kirk are those original Superman movies. Well, let me, let me rephrase the original Superman movie. And to some extent, the second one, and then the Donner cut of the second one,

[01:30:07] I think if he, if he can find some of that magic and then create even more of it, the way that he did with guardians, uh, I just, I just amazing. And he peacemaker, I thought was pretty spectacular as well. Yeah. I love, I love peacemaker. I'm, I've never been a big DC fan. Uh, I've always felt like the difference between Marvel and DC was that, um, you know,

[01:30:32] Marvel was human beings who were suiting up and provided great skills or abilities, you know, for whatever. And they're trying to do the right thing and, and also be human beings and have their own lives. Um, and as, as you noted, I think in our first episode, their problems are very much rooted in real life problems. Right. Exactly. And I think I always felt like DC was like reading about gods. Yeah. Yeah. You know what I mean? And, um, that just bored me, you know what I mean? I,

[01:31:01] so I just never, I mean, other than Batman, I really never, um, kind of got in sync with, with too many of the, the DC characters. Um, I've enjoyed, but, but I still feel very optimistic and very hopeful for what James Gunn is going to do with DC because it only helps the whole industry. It only helps big, make better Marvel movies. If DC starts making good superhero movies and I enjoy them.

[01:31:29] I still enjoy cause I enjoy the whole concept of superheroes. Yeah. Um, so I still go see them and I still enjoy them. But I, like we said, I think we talked about it either. I think it was the last episode. You know, I love the flash movie. I think it gets poorly and unfairly criticized all the time. Um, and I loved the Batman, uh, Michael Keaton movies. So can you believe we live in a world where we get Michael Keaton back as Batman? Let's go. I know. Yeah, it was awesome.

[01:31:59] And I'm, I'm pissed that we don't have that Batgirl movie out there where he's a main character in that as well. Yeah. Yeah. It's too bad that they, they shelved that. I guess it was so bad, huh? Well, listen, since I'm, I've got a theme going here, will we live long enough to see DC and Marvel crossover, especially now that James Gunn is living? I think if DC does well, and starts to have the same level of success with a,

[01:32:29] a, uh, expansive universe that's interrelated and tied together, uh, the way that Marvel has, then yes. Yeah, I absolutely think you will. Plus there, there's still really good blood between, um, uh, both of the, um, Kevin Feige and, uh, James Gunn. All right. All right. We should probably wrap up the news before we start talking about the actual news. And we've got a little bit of listener feedback. Well, we've got a real little, okay.

[01:32:57] I'm just going to precede this listener feedback section with, okay. I promise that next week's episode will be less than an hour and 10 minutes. If we get two emails or two Facebook posts and one phone call, I'm, I'm throwing that out there. All right, Kirk, we got a bit, we got a bit of feedback. Becky Anderson. Uh, has written in and given us some feedback.

[01:33:26] I didn't see that ending coming with white tiger. I'm new to the dare devil stuff. My only experience before this reborn one was Ben Affleck. Smiley face. Well, I'm sorry to hear that Becky. I really liked this one. I decided to go back and start the original series. It's so interesting to see where they are in the current show and seeing how they got there. Pretty cool. Yeah, definitely. If you're, if you like this at all, you should definitely pause and go watch the additional,

[01:33:54] the original first three seasons. Yeah. It's all. Yeah. And it'll, it'll get you kind of, you know, some backstory on, on John Bernthal's Punisher because they make the Punisher series. And then of course the other defender series that I think are all worthwhile. Yes. All of them are worthwhile to watch. Although there's definitely one that will stand out to you, but I'll let you figure that all out on your own. And one, and one that will stand out to you is not as good. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:34:24] For sure. For sure. Well, Becky, thank you for writing in. Appreciate that. Please keep doing that. Stay in touch and, uh, you know, feel free to reach out, maybe call in. All right. That is the end of our show. Can you believe it? Kirk? Even I'm falling asleep. Join us next weekend. When we cover daredevil born again, episode four. If you'd like to join the conversation, uh, you can find all of our contact information at podcast.com.

[01:34:54] Where you'll also find links to our social media pages and to all of our shows. Um, some of our most recent shows are, uh, the run for your lives podcast where, uh, Paik and Daphne, two amazing members of the podcast family. They talk about, uh, an Anthony Mackie movie called elevation. Uh, I almost watched that. I almost watched that last night. Yeah. I it's crazy. I haven't watched that yet. So I'm glad that they did the podcast because now I am going to watch it so I can, uh,

[01:35:23] listen to what they have to say about that. Uh, yellow jackets, which I hear is, is great, uh, in season three, but, uh, they're covering season three just now. And they just posted episode six called Thanksgiving, which not having seen season two or any of season three, I haven't finished season one yet. I'm about two thirds of the way on season one. Well, all you have to do is watch episode one, season one, to have the phrase Thanksgiving, uh,

[01:35:57] and of course, uh, and of course, uh, welcome to the white Lotus, uh, where it wraps up, uh, kind of an amazing run of Cobra Kai that started off on YouTube, Brad and ended up on Netflix. Uh, uh, so please get your feedback in for that. If you never have before, cause you probably caught up because that's,

[01:36:27] that dropped over a month ago now. So, uh, try to get your feet at feedback in for that. And if you like what we do, give us a five-star rating, a review or a like and follow and subscribe on Facebook, Instagram, and Patreon. You can find all of that information in our show notes as well as podcastica.com. Thanks for listening. And we'll see you next week.

[01:36:50] I'm not seeking penance for what I've done. What exactly are you going to do?

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