90: "Sic Semper Systema" (Daredevil: Born Again S1E4)

[00:00:00] Sponsor-Gate, Anilis,

[00:00:30] He was the kindest, purest soul I ever met. And guys like you and me, we could work a lifetime and never measure up to his decency.

[00:00:48] Hey everybody, welcome to Daredevil Born Again, a Marvel TV cast. I'm Jim. And I'm Kirk.

[00:01:18] The episode we're going to be discussing is Season 1, Episode 4, Sic Semper Sistema, written by David Fagey, no relation to Kevin, and Jess Wigatow, and directed by Jeffrey Nachmanoff. And Nachmanoff was, this is one of those, I don't know, this is one of those severance-y parts of this series. He was part of the original Daredevil team who did the first,

[00:01:46] that first six episodes and was fired along with the original, I guess, executive producers, Matt Corman and Chris Ord. And when Kevin Fagey came on board, he fired everybody and then realized, we've got to try to put some of this together. So they brought Nachmanoff back in along with a couple of other directors. David Boyd is another one that we'll talk about, I think, in upcoming episodes, including this one, to help the new team sort of piece everything together.

[00:02:15] So he's still mentioned as the director for this episode because he had to come back and do quite a bit of weaving in and out. And it's one of my points. I'll get to some of that. But there are so many changes that happened because of that first episode. And then a lot of pieces were brought from other episodes into all the episodes that we've seen. And it's funny because as we've been going with the show,

[00:02:41] I didn't know a lot of these tidbits, but they're sort of, I don't know. Well, it's kind of leaking out now. Yeah. I don't think they wanted to necessarily talk about it prior to its release. But now that it's out, people are. Yeah, people are okay. I think the episodes are, they're not looking choppy, but you can sort of tell that things possibly didn't get filmed at the same time, which we'll get into. You know, I got to take a, I don't agree with that.

[00:03:07] I mean, I just think that when you know, it's like your mind plays tricks. You know that that's what happened. Yeah. So everybody's, I noticed that initially, like people are, everybody. Oh, I, if I looked at, I would tell you that this was, you know, this is where they edit. I know exactly where they cut this. I could see it. And I'm like, that's bullshit. I mean, I don't buy it. I don't buy it. It's because you knew that that's what they did. So you're looking for that. Oh, for sure. Oh, for sure. If you just don't think about that and watch it, I don't ever feel like there's like some,

[00:03:36] it's the same thing with Brave New World or yeah, Brave New World, the Captain America movie. You and I, you know, talked about that. And you, I suppose, you know, there's a little bit of abrupt changes here and there, but it's like, to me, it was just one fluid movie. I, I, I didn't know. I, I agree. I agree. And I feel the same way on these episodes. I just don't, I don't. I, I actually, I love trying to figure out what transitions were put in there specifically to make it flow better.

[00:04:05] And I, I, uh, you know, initially we were talking about the, uh, BB Uric parts and I think it's funny because I think we're sort of shifting because I loved them at first and now they're starting to, they're starting to grade on me a little bit. And I, I, I, in the last, I think the last episode you were talking about, um, how much you were starting to like them a little bit. Yeah. And I don't, for, I liked the BB Uric part of this episode, which I'm sure we'll talk about, but when it flashed back to that same old guy that we saw in episode three, I was like, Oh, come on. Like, come on.

[00:04:35] We, do we need this? Do we still need this? I think she's starting to serve another purpose. Do we still need these? But you know, we'll get, we'll get there. We'll get there. Overall. Overall. I don't know why they kept, I don't know why they kept doing it. I don't think it's needed anymore. I'll be curious to see if they do keep using them, especially now she's finally starting to be an important part of the plot with what happened in episode four. But we'll see. I think the, I do like the kind of the grittiness and maybe that's just what they're going for. Let's find something that's gritty.

[00:05:05] Okay. We'll, we'll do this, but we'll see. Um, so what do you think, just your general thoughts of episode four in comparison to the first three overall? I really liked it. Um, I thought the, the performances were probably the best yet. Although, you know, I thought that the, um, white tiger performance last episode was really fantastic too. But, um, I thought the storytelling was good. Uh, moved the plot a lot. Um,

[00:05:34] I loved how it opens with the white tigers mask and then closes with daredevils mass. Yeah. I thought that was a great framing of the story, you know, with the vigilante life. Um, you know, uh, I thought, uh, you know, I, I loved meeting tigers. Nice. Angela del Toro who becomes white tiger in the comics. Yeah. one of multiple people that become the white tiger in the comics. Um, I believe actually his sister,

[00:06:05] uh, Eva, a yellow becomes the tiger first comics and is much older and probably more age appropriate than, than, uh, than the nieces at this point. So if we get white tiger again, maybe season two, um, that'll, uh, that'll be who, who it is. But anyway, I really liked that, that little segment in the beginning, um, meeting her, uh, we finally get a, an introduction to muse. I've been complaining every week about the fact that, you know, um, the,

[00:06:33] the actual big bad has not even made an appearance really yet. So that was good. Certainly is a sick F. Um, no problem. I think they're trying to kind of get this, this like daredevils Joker kind of thing. Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, um, I'm, I'm adding a new part to our, our little podcast here. We are definitely going to have a little comic book section because it's time we talk about muse. Uh, so just a, a heads up for everybody who's listening. Uh, there's going to, I don't know if it's going to be spoiler or not,

[00:07:02] but when we get to the end of this episode, after we talk about news, we're going to do a little section on, uh, on this and we'll, we'll put it in the notes for timestamps, but we'll, uh, I'll give you plenty of heads up. I'm going to talk a little bit about muse in the comic books that way. Uh, we can, there's a storyline that I read this week that certainly is what this is feeding off of. No pun intended. Um, but we'll, we'll come back to that. This is definite. I definitely agree with you though. The daredevil, uh, the joker relationship is,

[00:07:31] is definitively there. And we'll talk, we'll, we'll talk about that more when we get to it. I also really liked, there was a couple of great lines that I loved that were brought some humor that we really kind of hadn't been having. Um, I love the fact that there was a call out to the scrolls by, by the Roy Bradford. You know, that was hilarious. Yeah. Yeah. Maybe it was a scroll and not me. It's like, to me, that was great. Cause it's like, you know, that that was what, you know, people have been caught doing shit. We're saying,

[00:08:01] you know, that wasn't me. It was a scroll. Um, and some of the other funny, funny lines I liked was, um, uh, when Leroy Bradford meets Matt for the first time, he's like, great. They gave me the blind one. That was hilarious. The confrontation in the hall with the cop who threatens Matt was sending guys to beat him up. And that says, hopefully you bring more of this time. Gosh, the,

[00:08:28] the look that that cop gives them after he says that. I know. I know. That was hilarious. And then of course I'd love the, the flirting with the counselor and, and her being into it. And then it was just kind of, and I, Matt's got the riz as the, he always like if he has always been that character, I mean, there's, there's some Bruce Wayne and, and Matt Murdoch. And there was no doubt in my mind. That scene was him flirting with her and her flirting back.

[00:08:57] And you can tell Matt Murdoch, you know, being keen on senses, uses that to his advantage to kind of get things that he wants. And I just loved that. It was, you know, it was two minutes, but it gives us comic book fans, Matt Murdoch, which I absolutely love. Hey, by the way, we, we talked about the sexual component and how it wasn't there in the first episode. Welcome. Welcome back. Amen. No, I agree. And, and I think that,

[00:09:27] you know, a lot of times the alter ego, um, does not incorporate or utilize any of their heroic skills, you know? Yeah. Um, and occasionally they break that in Spider-Man. Um, but, uh, this is great because he, he could use, he has to use his skills just to get, get through the day, but that ended up ratcheting up his ability to, you know, identify, you know,

[00:09:56] traits about people or know if they're lying or, and it's just cool that, that he, that he uses that. And cause he always did in the comics and it makes sense. If you had a power and you had an alter ego, you, you know, you wouldn't not, if that power could help you as in your, as an alter ego or not alter ego, but as a, um, your secret identity, um, you know, you would use it. And he does. And I thought that was cool, but I, I loved, I loved all. So that, because there really hasn't been much humor.

[00:10:27] Um, and, and I thought this episode, actually had, had quite a little bit. I mean, I, the funniest, I mean, the funniest scene too, which maybe we'll talk about it later, but of course, you know, we get, we get our little, we built the city montage. Yeah. When, let me, when, when he left that classroom, because, you know, me being a classroom teacher, uh, especially if younger kids and, and, you know, we get that scene where they, they were out of tune and sounding kind of terrible.

[00:10:56] And then they flash over, they flash over to the Latvian, uh, the Latvian chorus. And then they break into a Latvian version of it. The look on Fisk's face. Oh, D'Onofrio is so good. Uh, but the best is when he stood up in the classroom and they started saying, okay, now we're going to have these do the second. And he's like, no,

[00:11:44] I tend to agree. I think, uh, this episode certainly is on par with all of the rest. And I'm going to talk about how they piece this episode together later. I might even be, it might, it might be my favorite episode. So I, I would agree. I mean, you didn't even talk about what I think was the strongest six minutes, maybe in the series up to this point, um, which is my first point. And I'm not going to mention it as my first point right now, but we finally get the Punisher in this episode. That's my first point too. So I guess we'll just talk on it at the same time.

[00:12:14] Let's just segue into it. Um, we finally get Bernthal and I, I, I'm going to let you kind of take this point, but I just want to say this about John Bernthal. I hope that throughout the rest of his career, he finds vehicles where he can be, um, he can just sort of show off the talent that he has. He is so in tune with this character and those six minutes were so powerful. Uh, I, it, I was watching it thinking if,

[00:12:44] if there's going to be a crisscross moment where, and you've been talking about this in the last two episodes about Matt becoming sort of the priest, um, in lieu of his priest dying in, in, in the third season of daredevil and the Netflix show, uh, if there was a crisscross moment where this turns on its head, it's those six minutes and, and Bernthal as someone barely holding it together, um,

[00:13:11] just everything about that six minutes shows like where the punisher has been all of these years and where, who he is as a character and, uh, and who he knows Matt is and the bullshit that Matt's doing, not being daredevil. And I just loved the interchange between the two, but I'm going to stop there. I agree. And just, he gives the most authentic, passionate and powerful performances. And, and this was, you know, this was right up there with anything else he's done. Um,

[00:13:41] I just, uh, you know, you can't take your eyes off of him when he's on the screen, you know? And he brings out the, and he brings out just the raw emotion that he brought out in Charlie Cox. I mean, these are two incredible actors going toe to toe in that moment. And the facials on these guys, uh, Charlie Cox specifically, there's a line, there's a line at the end of, there's so many good lines in this, but I, I mean, this line, you know, when we get to the end of this meeting, you know,

[00:14:11] so what now every day bullseye goes to the chow hall, eats a slop, you know, he gets to breathe the same air that you breathe. You feel good about that. And if you're watching Charlie Cox in that moment, who's holding back tears, who's holding back grief and he screams, he got life. And the minute he said that, I'm like, Oh boy, you can, you can see Bernthal who was liquid anger. And he sort of temps that back and then brings it back out and says, how about old foggy?

[00:14:40] He get life. Yeah. And, and, and that brings out perhaps the best quote of the, series. Maybe you can also, you can see it, Matt. It's almost like a physical cracking. You almost kind of can hear it and feel it. Yeah. And maybe the first time he heard the voice, uh, since he's passed, uh, since that year has passed. And, um, he, he says foggy, he was the kindest purest soul I've ever met. And guys like you and me,

[00:15:08] we can work a lifetime and never measure up to his decency. And then he just backs up and says goodbye, Frank, and walks out the door. And that was, that was a little under six minutes of, of John Bernthal. first, first, first he, he lashes out at him. Oh, when he says, he says, what did he get life? And then of course that immediately triggers Matt. Yeah. And, and he, I believe he smacks him. No, the smack was before,

[00:15:37] the smack was before way before. Yeah. Oh yeah. The smack was, um, no, I disagree because then he says, I mean, I mean, we go back and obviously it's one or the other, but yeah, because he, then he's apologizes and, and, um, yeah, he says, you know, what, what are you apologizing for? It's the first honest thing you've done. Yeah. And that says it's not about him. Um, and then Punisher says it's all about him. Yeah. That was, that was long before that interaction.

[00:16:06] That was, uh, well, when I say long before this whole interaction was six minutes. He's like, this is when he first starts on him. He's like, Oh, for Christ's sake, say his name, say his name. You coward, say his name. Okay. Um, it's not about him. You hate yourself. It's eating you up because you ain't done a goddamn thing about it. So, and before he can say anything else, Matt, like backhands them. Yeah. And, and he, you know, Matt's like, God damn it. God damn. Cause he knew, you know, he brought that out in him and he's like, and he apologized. He's like,

[00:16:36] sorry, I apologize. And what are you sorry for? It's the first honest thing you did, Brad. Right. So I, yeah, it's great. And that was, that's when that scene, I mean, there are three of those, the initial moment where, where I almost said Shane, where, where, where Punisher, you know, where, where Frank Castle, like when Matt first walks in and he looks around this room, he's like, what the fuck am I looking at? And then Punisher with the meme, like, Oh, Oh, you know, attacks him, slams him against the wall.

[00:17:07] The ax, you know, he's got an ax in his hand. You get that first initial scene. And he, you know, it's me, it's me, it's Matt. Yeah. Which calms him down. But I, I, everything about that scene, the rollercoaster ride of, of it's, I, it, I can see where you would get confused about thinking that the bitch slap came at that third part because they, they, that ebb in the flow of the scene, I think is just brilliant. Yeah. And I, I mean, I liked it right.

[00:17:36] Like from even the top, I mean, from before they're together, when he's slowly seeking out the Punisher using, you know, smell and sounds and to, to uncover his layer. And he it's again, he, then he has to go through these alleyway and then down these into this tunnel. And then he's through the tunnel. And it's like, it's like he's slowly descending into a pit in hell, you know, to find him. And, and I mean,

[00:18:05] Matt no longer has any way to confide in or to confess to, like he used to with foggy Karen and father Lantam. So, you know, he's got no spiritual confidant. And I think it's just, it's really becoming more and more difficult for him. So as justice continues to fail people and the devil inside of him is constantly, you know, saying, let me the fuck out so I can get some shit done. Yeah. So he's seeking out another fellow demon. Yeah. That deals injustice to try and get some confidants, you know,

[00:18:33] to get somebody to confide in and to actually look for their blessing. I think. And, you know, that, that the dialogue, like he says, you know, I don't think you came here for help. Punisher says to him, I think you want my permission. I love that line. I'm sure calling out Matt's guilt about foggy, make him confront it. That guilt, that shame. That's, that's my home, red. I can see it on you. I can smell it on you. It's all over you. Just, just, just fantastic. And of course his delivery is just amazing.

[00:19:02] There were so many little things about that scene that were, that were brilliant. I mean, I love, you know, he, he, when he first walks away from Matt, he walks over to the table and he takes pills, which I can only assume are maybe anger management. Yeah. To calm them down. You know, I mean, I, I, you, and then you start paying attention to the room itself and you see, if you pay attention to the back wall, there's a lot of X's. Yeah. There's a lot of red X's. And I, and that's,

[00:19:31] that's who the punisher is, you know, his he's, and who knows who he's after and, you know, who he's going after. And I'm sure we'll get more in that special presentation movie that we're going to get soon. But I, I just, there were so many parts to that scene that were brilliant with both actors sort of passing the baton off back and forth to each other, where Matt comes in with the power and he's sort of critiquing, you know, you can, that first interchange where he says, you know,

[00:20:01] it's a nice place you got. Although here's a thought, you know, you could use all of this to be of service. The minute he said that, I was like, Oh shit. I know. I know. He just told that to an ex cop. He's like, yeah, be of service. Huh? Are you, are you of service red? Did you serve prancing around in Halloween costume, beating up bad guys? Hey, thank you for your service. I was like, well, he's ex military. He wasn't. Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It was never a cop. He was no,

[00:20:29] it was a military special forces. Yep. Special forces. Yeah. I love that. Like the scene. There's like so much anger in the scene, but at the same time, so much empathy for each other. Yeah. And that the pain that they both have, you know, for who, who they've lost and how it drives them. I mean, Matt's tortured by foggy's death and the punisher pointing that out, you know, hasn't that Matt hasn't done anything about it. It's daredevil hits Matt really hard, cracking that wall,

[00:21:00] holding daredevil back, you know? And it just, it was, there was this anger that was going on between the two of them, but there was also, that was all underneath a, what I saw as empathy for each other. You know, you're, you're now punishers. Like you think you're now where, where I've always been, you've lost somebody that just, you know, you can't bear having lost. Oh, and it's killing you. And I, I love, I loved that.

[00:21:28] He compared it to the underlying pain that causes the punisher to be who he is. And he talks, you know, he's every time I stopped moving, I still hear my little boy. Yeah. I see him and I hear his voice and he says, get him, daddy. Every last single one of them, get him. That's why I do what I do. That's why I see it in you because you know, you didn't do a goddamn thing and it's going to keep eating at you. It's going to keep eating. Eating and eating and eating. And they use repetition. I see that,

[00:21:57] but I saw that less as being critical of him and being empathetic to him. Yeah. No, I agree. I did it too. I've avoided it too. And it killed me. You know, I think both of them see each other in each other. And I think absolutely the dance that they've been doing throughout the series, we saw it in episode or season two of, of daredevil on the Netflix series when they were on that literally, frankly, we've chained up. That was awesome. Yeah. And,

[00:22:26] and I just, I love that there, they, they have this dance of respect where, you know, there, you know, Matt Murdoch doesn't, isn't a killer. And the Punisher doesn't respect someone being a hero when he believes that justice is a different justice. And you can see how both feel that way. And you can, can have respect for both. And I love this little dance that they do because you can see Matt,

[00:22:56] Matt. I mean, you want to, you want to give a star Wars comparison, like Matt peeks over into the dark side a lot. I mean, that's the whole point of his character, you know, and, and, and, and, and Punisher, you know, Frank, the Frank Castle character is living in that dark place. And, and you can see like, could I pull out of this, but the death of his son, the death of his family is something that he can never overcome. So I just, they are who they are and they have mutual respect for each other.

[00:23:25] And I think that's where the empathy comes from. So, I mean, I think this, this six minutes of, of, of episode is on par with what we were getting in the Netflix series, you know, definitely. And again, Charlie Cox, you know, kudos to just a, an actor who's really taking some joy and showcasing a lot in this character that, you know, that he's learned over the years and, and, you know, he's becoming,

[00:23:55] you know, a great, actor, not that he wasn't before, but you can see that the more he lives in the shoes of this character, the more he understands them and what a complex character to, to, to, to get to be. So I'm going to make one little observation or, or possible theory, not theory, possible thing down the road, but Punisher story about him hearing his son talking to him. I'm wondering if that might end up,

[00:24:22] might being a peak at how foggy might come back to this story. Oh, yeah. Might end up becoming Matt's kind of spiritual confidant and ghost, you know, and he speaks to him. I could see that happening. So, and, and to kind of go along with that, when this, when, when Matt walked out, did you watch, did you watch Bernthal? Did you watch Frank Castle? What he did? Yeah. He turns. His head snapped to the side and you can tell he was listening to someone. Yeah. And I was, I was like,

[00:24:52] and I cannot imagine that was direction. I, knowing Bernthal the way the, I don't know if you listen to his podcast, but Bernthal is method, as method as it gets. Right. And you could tell at some point he thought, if I am that scene with my head turning, like I'm hearing something. Right. I just, like I'm listening to somebody. Yeah. Yeah. So I, oh, that's a, that's a, I think with, you know, and this isn't spoilers because, you know, some executive producers are out there talking about it right now. So if you don't want to hear this,

[00:25:22] I apologize or just fast forward 20 seconds, but producers have said that, that foggy is in episode is in season two. And for, for them to say it out loud in the, in the ether, it makes me think, well, no, they're not going to say it if he's alive. They're going to do something unique that isn't being spoiled by saying, yeah, we hired this actor to be in season two. So I, I,

[00:25:51] I, I love that take. And I love the fact that they're using maybe the most powerful character outside of our main two characters to, to tell that story. Yeah. And, you know, I know I noticed in the notes that you're going to talk a little bit about the, the controversy around Berntal is coming back. Yeah. So I don't want to jump, jump ahead or spoil that. But one of the things I did here is from that. And I'm sure you'll talk about that or we'll talk about that is that he, he,

[00:26:22] he has not, he's not only came back because of the changes that they made and the people that they brought on. But my understanding is, is that he has some autonomy over the characters portrayal and that he gets, you know, he gets to have final say over how, you know, the words that come out of his mouth essentially. And I think that, you know, that that's, that's just going to benefit the show. Yeah. I, well, and,

[00:26:49] and good on them for understanding that to get a guy like Bernthal to play this character is, and to give him that autonomy. What were they going to do? They couldn't recast it. You know, that's just not, just not going to be a believable. And, and they had to have him. I mean, this, this had to send message to Kevin Feige when you, your, your show runners at the time, your executive producers at the time can't land John Bernthal because of the

[00:27:18] character's direction. I mean, if that's not a message, right. So we'll, we'll get to that. I, that's a good point too. I, I would love to hear the pitch that, that he shot down. Well, we'll get into that in a few minutes. All right. Point number two, what do you got? The continued rise of Kingpin and daredevil. I thought that was well handled throughout the whole episode. You know, clearly both Fisk and Matt are frustrated with the system.

[00:27:48] It won't let them do what they feel needs to be done to make things better. Fisk with the roadblocks and delays on his efforts to trim, transform the city and red hook, you know, and all of the, the red tape and governmental, you know, systems that are just making it like impossible. And it, for a guy like that, who's just used to being able to say, go out and take care of this. You know, that's frustrating. And while at the same time,

[00:28:18] the justice system through this episode, we see is preventing Matt, Matt from providing justice to, you know, the common man as, you know, with this inability to get justice for Leroy Bradford. Um, there's an example of how the system continually fails the city and its inhabitants. And I think that that's, that was just really well, well done in this episode and the, and the, uh, and having it reflected in the two storylines, um, it was great. I thought they did a really great job at that. Um,

[00:28:48] you know, I think then when we see the result, you know, at the end where Fisk passes that rabbit in the snowstorm painting, which is now in darkness, kind of has the blood all over it. Um, you know, it's very symbolic visually of the Kingpin resurfacing in my mind. Um, kind of like he's, he walks by it almost as if he's kind of like walking out of it. I know where you're going though. I know what you're walking to. I know. Listen,

[00:29:18] when he walked by that pain, when he walked down those steps, cause listen, every time I saw those bloody knuckles, I kept going. I know. I know. I got right in here, Jim, you called it about, but when he walked by that painting, I didn't think I knew where we were going. I mean, obviously I was like, Oh yeah, Adam's going to be down here. But I, I remember distinctly thinking by God, if he sits down and eats a meal, cause that, that's your call. Like, so I,

[00:29:47] so if you're not listening to this, yeah, I'm going to pat both of our backs here because we nailed that last scene. Oh, did we nail? They, they pan down to that plate and I'm like, Oh, he's eating good tonight. I'm like, when do we get to see them? They couldn't have put more sausages on that plate. And then, and then to the, the descending the stairs into that dungeon. So metaphorical, you know, just like walking right before he walks down the steps,

[00:30:17] what did they show us? Do you remember Matt climbing up to the, to the roof? Oh yeah. Oh yeah. And I was like, so we've got descending versus ascending. And I'm like, Oh, let's go. Let's go. Let's tell this story. Yeah, absolutely. Um, and then, you know, I, then they do the, the Matt side where he starts off lying in bed with the cross. Yeah. So prominent on his chest. Yeah. You know, it was kind of like the cross to bear, you know, like the cross he's been well.

[00:30:46] And as we've talked too much, we've, we've talked a lot about this, but you know, and he's trying to avoid it. And this episode, the series is doing a great job of keeping kind of on the fringes. But when I saw that cross, I couldn't help but think, well, that's Matt system. That's been a system his whole life is as you called it last week, the religious, um, religiosity of, of who Matt Murdoch is and has been and what he's been through and how, um, you know, in his, in his terms,

[00:31:15] like God has let him down. It let him down when, when the priest was killed in season three of the Netflix series, it let him down when foggy was killed in episode one of this series. And, um, and, you know, he, and it's so prominently that the minute they showed that cross, I'm like, okay, okay. Is he going back to being who he's meant to be? Uh, and you know, is, is, is, is his systems letting him down to the point where we're going to finally get to see daredevil. Um,

[00:31:43] I saw it as almost kind of a dual symbol, you know, to me, it was, it was that. And then also that it was kind of like this cross he's bearing. Yeah. And I love that to keep their devil. Yeah. In the darkness and out of the picture is just becoming too, too, too difficult for him to bear. Yeah. And then the other side of it is the other more kind of almost literal was that it's, it's positioned in such a way. It's very similar to nuts.

[00:32:13] It's not similar in look, but the positioning of it is like where the daredevil logo, the DD that's on the chest. He doesn't wear that on his costume, but he does in the comic. And to me, it was kind of like the two were interchangeable to your point. You know, his religiosity and daredevil are all wrapped up in together. And he wears that on his chest, you know, and he's letting it out. Yeah. I, like you said, he goes up the stairs and onto the roof to this, you know, almost metaphorical heaven, you know,

[00:32:43] where he's practicing his DD skills. Yeah. That was awesome. Oh yeah. Well, so they're both letting beginning to let out their darker selves. Yeah. I'm waiting for that. So that, that scene was so the scene with the billy clubs, you know, just such a beautiful moment. And, you know, I, my, my third point was, was just that phrase, uh, sick Semper system, which means quite literally the system is always like this. And we see it. I just, I loved, you know, the little story where he's, you know,

[00:33:19] and, and I, when it first put that little, little piece of story in there, I'm like, why is this story in here? And, you know, he says to Matt, you know, the system doesn't work. He says it. I was just like, there it is. Like the system doesn't work. And Matt's been getting this message over and over and over. But I thought they did a great job because they didn't just say that. Cause it was, it was easy to like, cause the argument being made all around was, Oh, well look at his rap sheet. His rap sheet's terrible.

[00:33:49] No judge is going to, you know, of course he's, Oh, he's done all these crimes. You just, you know, that's why he's, he's a bad guy. He's doing all these crimes. But, and so you're kind of like, well, you know, maybe he is just a criminal, you know, and then he's lying, you know, clearly he's caught on tape doing the fiddle faddle thing, you know, but, but, but they, they don't just, they just, they go deeper. And then they, when they have that conversation about the fact that like, you know, he gets put in jail and then as a result, misses, you know,

[00:34:18] appointments that he had for social services, which then ends up taking away his food stamps and his ability to feed himself. So now what are you going to do? Starve to death? No, you're going to go out and get yourself something to eat. And, you know, and so then the system throws even more at you and they'd rather put you in jail. And I thought this was really, really, you know, timely statement. They'd rather put you in jail and spend so much money feeding you and

[00:34:45] clothing you and keeping you in custody than to help keep you out of jail and on your feet. They'll spend more money to keep me in jail than to help me stay. they didn't say anything about it, but it's, you know, it's, it's become clear in the last, I don't know, 20 years that we haven't, you know, like we have a military industrial complex. We have a prison industrial complex. And, you know, it's being, you know, it's being used to make profit and the more bodies that you can put in it,

[00:35:15] the more profit that's being made. So it kind of becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. For sure. Capitalism gone bad. Yeah. But anyway, so. Do you feel that the systems have broken our two main characters? And I, I, I watched an interview and I, I'm just going to throw it in here because I don't know where else to put it. I guess I could put it in notes, but I was watching an interview with, with Charlie Cox and Vincent D'Onofrio.

[00:35:44] And Vincent D'Onofrio was talking about his role in the first series and how he was a supporting player. And this series was brought as Vincent D'Onofrio, Charlie Cox series, where he is actually a co-star with Charlie Cox. And I, I, as we have our two main characters at this precipice where we have one in the basement where he's clearly been. And I don't, I mean, I don't know. I know Adam's an artist. I don't know if he's had long hair,

[00:36:14] but he had some really long hair, which makes me think he's been down there for, for a good bit of time. So you've got, you've got, you know, Wilson Fisk for the first time looking like Kingpin. And you've got, you've got Matt Murdock on the roof for the first time since episode one, looking like daredevils just there. Maybe for the first time since, you know,

[00:36:41] he threw Ben Poindexter, or bullseye off the roof, maybe for the first time, you know, he's holding those billy clubs again. Does that mean we're on the precipice of finally getting our Kingpin daredevil square off, or in some ways them starting to act more like their comic book characters? Yeah, I think so. I mean, I'd like to think so.

[00:37:08] You got me nervous talking about what your rumors you've heard about the next episode, but, but, uh, clearly, I mean, we got pink Kingpin. I mean, that segment, you know, is Kingpin. He's, you know, sitting at the table, feasting on fine food. And while, you know, he's torturing somebody. So, you know, that, that to me is he's, he's pretty much already there. Plus some of the other stuff that happened in the episode. Um, yeah. Vanessa. Um,

[00:37:38] also, I think. Yeah. I, and I, I, we keep coming back to red hook and we've, you know, I mentioned it quite a bit in episode about episode three. Um, you know, red hook comes back into play and it, you know, the term red tape has come up numerous times in the series. And you can see the frustration as, as Fisk tries to do things the right way. And, and he talks to, I think her, her name is Rachel or Rebecca, whatever his, uh, assistant's name. And she's, she's the one who can,

[00:38:07] can slot things the way they're supposed to. And she keeps winning these arguments and he keeps telling her to do her thing. But I think we see a key moment and, and maybe this is another point. So I don't want to dive into it where we see another character who's kind of been skirting on the edges, Daniel Blake sort of really take a step, uh, and first in the wrong one step seemingly into his grave and then miraculously comes out of it. But we'll get to that. That's one of my points. But I thought the dialogue between his assistant and him,

[00:38:36] him at red hook, uh, at that table with all the, the model set up was fantastic because, and it wasn't just, you know, well, you can't do it this way, you know, which is essentially what she says. You can't do it this way. And, and he's like, well, okay, well, how can I do it? Well, you know, we'd have to do this. And he'd be like, okay, then let's do that. And then you, you know, a lot of times you'd move on, but knowing, well, that's going to take a while, blah,

[00:39:08] well, then let's do that. And then, but then it'll have to be done up over here and this in front of this group and this committee. And then, and then he's like, all right, all right, let's do that. You know what I mean? And you could just tell, he's just like, there's so much subtle tension. I thought, man, he's going to smash her head. He's just going to squeeze her head and it's going to pop right in front of us. And he would have in the past, which is, which we know. And she doesn't. And, and, and is what's so terrifying about it. So, I mean, if she,

[00:39:37] if she lives through this series, well, I thought they really, they, they then, well, there was that. And again, she's a little bit more naive at that moment when they're having that red hook discussion. We're knowing it. Let's do that. But then to your point, the, the, the, the scene that follows with the other person, I'll let you, that's obviously one of your points. So yeah, why don't you go into that? Because I think there's a big awakening for her character.

[00:40:06] So in the middle, because she stands in between them. Yeah. Well, that was actually the way that was framed was beautiful. So I, this David Blake character who definitively has been a buffoon. And again, my Greg character from succession, you know, he's, he's enthralled with this big, this, this man, this kingpin who has been, you know, leader of the families of New York's mob, you know, underbelly and,

[00:40:34] and has risen from the ashes to become the mayor. And he's, he's totally enthralled with this, this man. Not that that's paralleling anything in the real world, but such is life. And, um, throughout this, he's just earnestly trying to do the right thing. But he also has this relationship with BV Urick and they go out clubbing. And he says a little too much about, uh, what Kingpin, and what Wilson Fisk is planning to do with regards to the unions. And I, I,

[00:41:03] I don't know how late they were out till, but you know, he goes home. He says 5 a.m. Yeah. It's 5 a.m. in the morning and he gets into his cab and goes home and 5 47 a.m. says the article that's, uh, we find out, uh, in a scene in, in Fisk's office that, um, actually, well, it doesn't matter where it was, but we, we find out that, that Blake gave up, uh, some information that BV Urick has used to,

[00:41:33] um, say that Fisk is planning on breaking the, the, the garbage union. Calling him the garbage mayor. and, and the minute I saw that headline, I'm like, Oh man, they're killing Gandolfini right now in episode four. He's a dead man. But we get that, that interaction where she, his assistant knows that, okay, we're clearing out. We're, we got to clear this kid out. Uh, we're going to do it my way now.

[00:42:02] And Blake does this amazing, you know, he, and again, in past years, I wonder how this would have turned out, but he walks up to Kingpin and, and Wilson Fisk and earnestly says, uh, it's my fault. I took the blame for it. And I don't think even Wilson Fisk was looking for anybody to take the blame for it. He was just sort of screaming and pissed off. And his energy and his anger had finally gotten the best of him. And Blake steps up in front and says, you know, it's me. I'm the one that did it.

[00:42:32] And he, he says, you know, basically, I will never let this happen again. And the way they frame it is you've got Fisk on one side, you've got Blake on the other, and the assistant directly in the middle, watching this interaction, like a tennis match, her thinking he's going to get fired and watching her realization where he realized, she realizes in the moment that Blake wins out a grabbing, what I would say a sizable amount of power in it. Although,

[00:43:00] although having the Kingpin's hand on my neck saying, you ever do this again? And you're a dead man. You know, I, I, I, I loved all of it. I loved watching her realize that who she's dealing with, with, with Wilson Fisk and probably where this is going. And I love that we're finally getting, we're seeing Blake go from this, uh, earnest, earnest kid into something possibly else. Like,

[00:43:28] I can't get it out of my head that Blake is going to turn into something a lot more evil than he is right now. Uh, but, but, um, he, you know, he, for me, it was that, it was that, that sequence where he says, you know, if this ever happens again, he says, what does he say? This is the last, it'll be the last thing you ever do. Yep. Something like that. And the look on her face as she stands, between them and looks at him as he's saying that it is this,

[00:43:57] all of a sudden, this realization of, Oh, Oh, he is, he is the king. He's talking about killing him. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, and, and the kid doesn't get it. The kid doesn't see it. He, he thinks he's just saved his ass and that this is a great guy and that he's, you know, really likes him and he's going to be good to him. And he's going to, you know, solidified his loyalty and everything else. But he's also just signed a pack with the devil. Oh, Oh yeah. No, I, I, um,

[00:44:27] I think that the Blake character is getting infinitely more interesting as we go. And, and who he becomes. I, I think that I was way off with Buck. I think you were dead on. I think Buck, Buck isn't playing both. I don't think, I don't think Buck is playing Vanessa and, and Wilson Fisk against each other. I do agree with you. I think, uh, last week you mentioned that he was definitively working for Fisk and, and for, and with Vanessa,

[00:44:57] assuming that they're a team. And, and I agree. He's working for Vanessa at the direction of. Correct. Yeah. Um, if there's more to it, uh, I, I, I, I, I, I don't see it as much as I did in weeks past, although I still have this, um, this, this unquenchable hope that, that Vanessa is working against Wilson Fisk. And it's interesting because, um, well, let me stay with David Blake. We'll come back.

[00:45:26] I've got some notes on, on the Vanessa thing, but, um, I, I just think that Blake, Blake is now has, has potential to become something more than just, um, the bumbling fool. I think he can still be a bumbling fool, but now carry a lot more weight as a character. And coincidentally, even though she's not had a, a physical presence much, I think that now Bibi Yurik has presented herself as a little more than just, uh, uh, a flippant, like social media person.

[00:45:56] Like there's some, there's some beef to what she does. Uh, and she put her, she put herself out there in this episode. Yeah. I, I think it was slot. It was sloppy. And, um, dangerous and, um, not well thought out at all. Maybe typical. Because she's, because by doing this, she had to realize that she was going to burn that source.

[00:46:26] And I think she, she was being short sighted about the other possible access that that source would give her or provide her down the road. And so, you know, to me, but that could just be because she's, you know, just a kid and not experienced. But at the same time, it's, you know, it's, it, it probably was not the right thing to do for her, for what she wants to do.

[00:46:53] But I think she is trying to be more like her dad. Yeah. I, the wild card to all of this too, is we don't know what she knows about Ben. I mean, perhaps, perhaps there's more meat on that bone. But I, again, not knowing how the old regime and the new regime who run this show, not knowing where this character was before and where this character is after. Hopefully there's more meat on that bone, but we'll, we'll have to wait and see. But does it feel.

[00:47:21] What I like about the Ben character is that he kind of epitomizes a lot of what's happening in the real world. In terms of, you know, the people who are enamored by toxic masculinity. You know what I mean? I see, you know, it's all this bro culture and bro podcasting and, and all this, you know, energy from frustrated men, men, I guess, young men. And,

[00:47:51] you know, it's why they've been kind of attracted to this kind of overly masculine or macho, non, I don't know the right way to terminology is, but, you know, and, and I think he kind of embodies that. Yep. And that's, he's, he's not into Fisk because, you know, he thinks Fisk is the best possible candidate.

[00:48:20] He just thinks Fisk is really cool. Yeah. And he thinks he's, you know, really macho and really cool and really strong and going to do all this great stuff is because he's powerful. Yeah. And that's what he's attracted to. Yeah. He's attracted to the power for sure. Yeah. He's, he's attracted to the power. And I think probably even more so to the persona of, of who Wilson Fisk is. Um, but I, and, and going back to BB, I think that what,

[00:48:50] comparing her to her uncle, like, so you've got Ben who was your prototypical. My mistake. Sorry. Why in a comic book, you wouldn't just make her, his daughter. I don't know. It's a choice, but he's your prototypical old school journalist, long form journalist. And, and I think that, you know, she is typifying like jerk, what journalism can be today. And, and this isn't, this isn't, I,

[00:49:18] we don't know anything about her and that's kind of shame on the show. So all's we know is that she does this, you know, woman on the beat sort of thing. She's been doing it for a while now. Cause I think it's the episodes are in. It's like 50th or 60th episode, or maybe more than that. But I know there's a lot of episodes of those little things that she does in, in, in each daredevil episode. So we don't know about her. We don't know if she is an authentic journalist,

[00:49:45] if she has been working a while to try to get an in on Fisk. If she knows about what happened to her uncle, we don't know any of that. And maybe we're not supposed to, or maybe it's just something that they didn't film because it got lost in translation. But it does seem to typify what we see now. Someone gets a story because they're, they're on Twitter or they're, they're, you know, they're doing something on blue sky or they're doing something on Instagram or they're doing something on Facebook. And she just posts it. And like you said,

[00:50:15] it wouldn't be how it would happen in old school journalism. And, and, and I think that's a, that's a, I'm not saying that old school journalism is the best way to do things, but, but sourcing things and long form, trying to slowly find information out. Like this is, this is hardly the information that's going to take down Wilson Fisk. Right. It, it was kind of like tabloid. Yeah. Stuff. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I agree.

[00:50:43] And I think it's a mistake on the show's part to, if they're going to continue to have her be a part of the story to not give her more fleshing out more, you know, so we understand what her motivation is and what her background is. Yeah. But it seems like she's just kind of this throwaway side thing to continue the story. Yep. Yeah. And I, I think if there's one flaw so far in this series is that it seems that

[00:51:13] there are a couple of storylines that, that seem that way, you know, especially when you consider the fact that, you know, BB's been in every episode, but not a whole lot. Kirsten McDuffie is another character that I absolutely adore. And she wasn't even in this episode. I think, I think that you can see that they're, they're nailing a lot of things, getting a lot of things, right. But there's definitely some things that are being lost in translation, but don't want to sidetrack. So that's our,

[00:51:43] that's my third point. What's your third point? Third point is the, the Fisk Vanessa relationship. You know, I had, I had a feeling we were going to be swinging around this one. You know, it's a, it's a fascinating relationship. This series, isn't it? Yeah. And I think that they, the, also the way that they're, the way that they're doing it, um, and telling that story as much visually as they are in dialogue. Um, you know,

[00:52:11] like the fact that now there's sit closer on the couch and therapy. Yes. Or like at the end of the night when they're sitting around the table eating, they're now not at either end. Like they were at breakfast. They're sitting right next to each other. Uh, they're more relaxed with each other, but, but, but, but they still were sitting across from each other and not next to each other. I just want to throw that note because yes. Yes. Yeah. But now he's, he's, but they are closer. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And then when the therapist asked, you know,

[00:52:40] what world was that? When she said, you know, my husband's world, she's Vanessa and fist say simultaneously business. And then when I asked, you know, where Adam is now, cause they talk about how he's not in the spirit. They both simultaneously. I don't know. So they're getting, they're getting in sync. They're getting on the same page. Um, and, and, and that's, you know, that's definitely changing a lot. And I think I, the way I interpret it is that the more.

[00:53:11] Fisk becomes Kingpin. The more Vanessa is, is more relaxed and content with him. Yeah. You know, and supports him. You know, I think that, that was kind of the, the crux of in the beginning was she just didn't like this new Kingpin. And, uh, or actually the Kingpin was gone. She didn't, you know, she didn't want to be married to Fisk the mayor. She wanted to be married to Fisk Kingpin. So, um, well,

[00:53:41] here's my one, here's my one conflict with that though. I agree. And I was really liking, liking the Vanessa wanting the power part of this. And it definitely seemed like some of that dissipated in this episode when she was talking about Adam specifically, his hands. I mean, she was egging him on. She, this is just me, but that to me was her trying to do.

[00:54:10] She was saying things to Wilson Fisk to turn him into Kingpin. Like that was definitively her saying, yeah, his hands were wonderful. And then in the back of her head, she's going, you should probably kill him. You know, I, yeah, she is definitely doing things to poke and prod him to get him to become Kingpin. What saddens me. And again,

[00:54:33] we don't know where this story's going is that I really liked the idea of Vanessa wanting the power that the Kingpin had. Right. And, and frustrated that he was back to take it away from her. That's what I'm, but, but I do like the idea of them to becoming that power couple, no pun intended that they were way back when an episode or season three of that Netflix series. Yeah. And I think, you know, it,

[00:55:03] she took over because she had to, I think, and she enjoyed it and she did a great job at it. But I think it seems like her motivation had always been in the past and may still be to do it together. Cause when she says in the, in the final, in season three of the Netflix and the final episode, she's like, I, you know, I don't want to be on the outside. Yeah. I want to be on the inside with you.

[00:55:33] And, um, you know, her taking over was more just because he had left. Yeah. Um, and now as he comes back, she's happier because, you know, she doesn't, and I don't see him coming back and taking over as in like, you know, like some sort of misogynistic kind of kick, kick her to the side. And I'm in charge. Cause I'm the guy type of thing. You know, I see it more as he's kind of waking up that he doesn't,

[00:56:02] he needs to do both, be the mayor and be Kingpin and run it with her. Right. Um, and that that's not only going to be best for him and for his business, but it's also going to be best for their relationship. Yeah. Yeah. I, that's kind of how I interpreted it. I, I mean, and I like that. I like that this Kingpin character. If you look at all the iterations of Kingpin in the comic books at the end of the day, he was just a super big fat guy. And again, he's a lot more complex than this.

[00:56:32] So I'm not trying to piss off my fellow comic book daredevil fans, but I've always liked Kingpin the character, but he's never taken that step into, to, in my opinion, in comic book lore is one of the best, uh, villains because at the end of the day, he's just a giant fat, super strong guy. Who's basically the preeminent mob boss in the world. And it's, it's very one dimensional. I don't, I don't know. I think he's, he's on par with, with, um,

[00:57:02] Norman Osborn in terms of, you know, being devious and plotting and, uh, you know, devil's reign was pretty amazing. And, yeah, I'm not saying, not saying that there aren't arcs there that make it try to make him more complex, but I think the overarching character itself is more brute force than, you know, Norman Osborn has always been, um, there's been some intellectual nuance with that character that, that borders on insanity.

[00:57:32] And I've never, um, I've never, and again, you know, I, maybe this makes me insane. I, I, I've, I've always pictured Kingpin as having a mindset, not insanity. And I think what makes the show special is that the story, the story that they told with Netflix and the story that they tell now is, is less about brute force, although that's there and more about, um, mental.

[00:57:59] There's some mental anguish that's taken part in his life that sent him down a certain path. And there's definitely a little more intellectual in this to the way that this character is being portrayed, especially this, this, this series. Um, I just think that, that D'Onofrio brought nuance to the care, to a character that hasn't always had that nuance. I agree that there have been arcs in the comics that have had that nuance, but I think it 90% of what you're going to see from, from Kingpin is more typical mob stuff and more brute force. But you're right there.

[00:58:29] There is definitely, I think the best writers, and I'm not even saying Frank Miller, uh, in this case, I think there have been other writers, Bendis for one, um, who have had some arcs with, with Kingpin that have turned it into something, um, a little more special. But I think this whole arc with, with, uh, D'Onofrio and, and, and the daredevil series and echo, um, and, and in Hawkeye, I think it's just been a little more nuanced. Yeah. I'll give you that. I'm, I'm,

[00:58:57] I'm super content that they brought her back and didn't go with what they initially shot with this other actress. I can't even imagine what they were thinking to do that. Yeah. I, that would have been a disaster. You know, I think so. All right. So we're on to point four and this is where I want to talk about. I'm all pointed out by the way. So, okay.

[00:59:26] So I've got a couple more points. Um, I do want to just talk about how they piece this episode together and why I think it was brilliant and one of my favorite episodes of this series, um, maybe one of my favorite episodes, um, just in recent memory, just looking back on the non daredevil episodes where we don't get a lot of dare, well, any of daredevil. I think this one stands out to me. This was pretty amazing in that we, we really ended up with three directors and let me explain how they piece this together.

[00:59:54] So the red hook scene was, first of all, initially this was supposed to be episode three, not episode four. Cause remember that whole first episode was written by the new and was added. Uh, this episode was supposed to be three. So the end of the episode was again, supposed to be daredevil standing at the roof. Uh, it was supposed to be a day in the life. They were supposed to be, it was supposed to be chronological,

[01:00:24] not cut apart. Uh, and what they realized when they were trying to put this together is that there were aspects from other episodes. It just fit better here as episode four. So what they did is that red hook scene was actually, uh, a Michael Cuesta shot, uh, part that was supposed to be in episode current series, episode three. And they just felt that it fit better here. So they brought Cuesta in actually didn't bring him in.

[01:00:52] They just took a part out of that episode three and put it into episode four with that red hook section, which I thought fit beautiful. It fit perfect with the story they were trying to tell with Blake, um, and with, uh, the assistant. Then you've got on the other end of it, you've got, and the reason why I wanted to mention David Boyd, who's actually the director of episode six and seven. Um, he's, he's, uh,

[01:01:22] an actor that they filmed a lot of scenes with Bernthal. So they had to take something from there and plug it in here because it fit better here. So they had to bring Boyd in to do, to talk about, they call him the Bernthal whisperers, what they, what they call him on set. Um, so they actually, they, the scene that they, that we saw is not from this episode. I think it's from an upcoming episode where, uh, spoilers where Punisher comes back,

[01:01:51] but I think we all know we get a clean, cleaner cut Punisher, uh, with the trailer. So, uh, I, I, and when you stop and you think how this episode moves, the pacing of it, when you, and, and to your point earlier, why I don't care about it being pieced together is because it's brilliant. And you have, so they knew that they were going to pull, uh, burn a Bernthal scene in,

[01:02:21] and they had to set that scene up. So they filmed two different, uh, portions of this series around that. The scene that we got with him, the points that you made about him walking up to Bernthal's apartment, to Punisher's apartment, all of that was filmed without them, um, actually filming the other scene in this episode. They had to kind of work off a memory. And then, then they brought that other scene in, which I, again,

[01:02:50] I thought was very brilliant. Perhaps the best scene outside of the Punisher scene was when we get kind of the parallel with Matt Murdoch going to look for the bullet casing. Right. And we get Matt Murdoch standing at the top right where, uh, white tiger was, was, was assassinated. And he knows that the bullet casing hasn't been found. And watching again, straight out of the comic books. Again, they found another way to do it.

[01:03:19] Watching him use his senses and his brains to find that bullet casing by standing up there, picturing what must've happened, seeing the bottle sit there, hitting the bottle with this cane, listening to it roll. Right. Falling in, falling into that drain and knowing immediately, Oh my God, look at this guy. This guy's unbelievable. Finding that bullet casing, which led him right to the Punisher.

[01:03:46] And then the one piece that I was hoping you would bring up because the, you mentioned in the first episode, how you didn't like the remaking of the Netflix Punisher intro. We got a little bit of it in this episode. If you were paying attention, you mean, you mean the daredevil. Yeah. The daredevil thing. We got a little bit of it. If you caught it. Yes. Yes. He was walking up to Punisher's door.

[01:04:15] And then all of a sudden I'm like, I like sit straight up. I'm like, Holy fuck. There it is. That's the thing. There it is. We're getting, we're getting Punisher. This is great. And I just, there's, and I don't know if it, if we can thank Scarpadone or the new show runner for piecing this together in foggy like way. But I just thought this, this, this episode turned into something beautiful where every little piece fit,

[01:04:45] including, you know, we have our, our street level lawyer. Um, beautiful. That, that was that, that whole watching Matt Murdoch kind of that, that's comic book, Matt Murdoch. That's. Yeah. Absolutely. Throwing up the shingle, Matt Murdoch, who's working a case, uh, does, does his magic, you know, swings his ass in front of, in front of that, uh, ADA, uh, and gets, gets this, you know, kind of the miracle, you know, the, the guy gets, you know,

[01:05:13] a sentence cut down in half or even two or a third or what? Cut down to like five days, 10 days, 10 days, but he'd probably, you know, with time served and maybe out in seven, I think he said, uh, I just, it, to me is, is the comic book, you know, and, and, you know, you've made me think this way with this, I think the thing that made episode one so beautiful was that it looked like a comic book. It literally looked like a comic book. Yeah. This to me,

[01:05:40] or those issues of daredevil where we get, cause Matt Murdock in a sense is in a lot of ways, a superhero as well, working for every man. And we get to see him not only trying to get this guy, the cheapest, uh, the lowest sentence possible, but we see him learning from this guy as well. And I think that's the best quality that Matt Murdock has always had. Right. And what he brings to daredevil is that he is a, he's high IQ.

[01:06:09] Don't get me wrong, but he's also someone who learns from every case, um, and takes that with them, um, as he, as he goes. And I just, I, by the time we got to the end of this episode, my believability factor with regards to Matt putting aside daredevil, because he almost killed bullseye and he's doing it for his friend and he's going to do it the way that his friend did it. When he's standing up on that roof at the end, and when Kingpin's sitting in that basement with this guy screaming, let him out, let him out, let him out.

[01:06:39] And all he's doing is hearing that music and eating that big fat plate of sausage and Murdoch's up there. Yeah. I just, they created the tension for both characters to get where they needed to go. And they pieced it together in a, in a, in a way that made this feel like it was the way it was meant to be. And these, the new show runner and the new executive producers were smart enough to bring in the old directors to do it.

[01:07:09] And I just absolutely positively love this episode. Uh, I hope this launches. Now that being said, we fucking need, if, if Tuesday night and whichever episode it is, doesn't bring me some fucking daredevil in the fucking suit next week, this fire, the first four and a half minutes are going to be just like the wire and episode season one, episode four, where they just say fuck for four minutes.

[01:07:38] That's what I'm bringing next week. Fuckity fuck. Yeah. So, but I just, I, I loved, I really, really, really loved how this episode was put together. And it really flowed well to me. Yeah, I agree. I, I, I am disappointed that because in the Netflix series, they did so many times. They, they had the story go without his costume. Yeah. And, and it was always such a point of frustration. And I just,

[01:08:05] I don't know why they picked that up again. Maybe it's, I mean, they wrote, granted, it fits the story. Obviously this, you know, the, it makes for the, for an important aspect of the story. It has to be hidden so that there's this, but, but why did we have to go through that again? What if we didn't get the first episode? I don't think I, I think we would have ended the podcast. Yeah. I don't think I don't know watching it. I don't. So thank God we got that first episode. Cause we're sitting here a little bit frustrated now.

[01:08:35] And at least we have the motivation. If we didn't have the fucking motivation, I don't know what we would be saying. I just feel like, I just feel like this, it's the same thing I experienced with She-Hulk, which I loved, but you know, you'd get two seconds of her as She-Hulk for like one episode. And then you'd have two episodes where she's not She-Hulk. And then, then you'd get one decent She-Hulk segment. And then that would be, you know, and it was like,

[01:09:04] I know there's money issues involved in everything else, but to me, it's like, one thing I loved about the, I love about the Marvel movies is, is that they pick right. You know, you're, you're, you're in the comedy, you're in the story, you're in the superhero world. They're, they're, they're superheroes and they're doing that all day long. And, and with these TV shows, they, they limit it much more. And it drives me crazy. I,

[01:09:29] the standalone episode shouldn't be daredevil in a daredevil series, the standalone episode, if they want to do a court procedural, the standalone episode is the white tiger episode and be done with it. Now incorporating this little story with Leroy in this story was fine. If it was in the comic book, you know,

[01:09:52] you would be looking at two or three sections of the comic book where daredevil's finding information out to try to get Leroy off and, or, or doing something else. But here it's, it does tell the Leroy stories. Great. And again, I love the way that this is pieced together, but yeah, it certainly would have been a better episode if we got the fucking daredevil. Let's go. Well, they've kind of backed themselves into a corner now because of the way that they wrote it. You know,

[01:10:22] it's gotta be this big transformation, you know, this, this realization. And then him finally, you know, putting it on and, Oh, this is a big deal, but it's just after three seasons of that on Netflix, you don't need it again. You know what I mean? Yeah. Thank God he's, thank God he's not running around in a black tank top with a, you know, with a, uh, armor, all shirt on and a, and a sweat and a scarf over his head.

[01:10:48] Or like if they fucking have them spend a whole fucking episode wearing a red mask, that'll piss me off. Oh Jesus. All right. All right. I think we're good with points. Do you have any notes? Uh, nope. I'm all set. I'm, I'm, I'm ready to move on. I am all set as well. Uh, we're going to take a break here. There's more to come. So stay with us.

[01:11:24] All right. Welcome to hell's kitchen confidential. That's right. It's time for daredevil news. We got, uh, most of this is daredevil news. There's, uh, a couple of little Marvel tidbits we'll get to at the end. And just a word of warning. If you don't, you know, some of this is, I guess the gray area of spoilery. So if you don't want any future information, um, we'll let you know beforehand. Like we have something coming up about, uh, muse that might be a little spoilery. Uh,

[01:11:53] but I think the other two articles that we're going to talk about are dealing with the past. So, uh, I don't think it'll be too spoilery for you, but when you hear the muse stuff, if you don't, it might be a little spoilery for you. So you might want to skip ahead to, um, our next section. Anyways, uh, the first thing that I wanted to talk about with news is, uh, this week, an article came out about John Bernthal refusing, to be in the first incarnation of daredevil born again, when it was brought to him by the original,

[01:12:23] uh, executive producers. And, uh, the quote that, that I just wanted to share with you guys is he was approached. He did say no. And the reason why he said no is he said, um, this is from burn, John Bernthal. It's quote, ultimately I didn't see it. Bernthal said of the version of the character, he was being asked to play for the softer, earlier take on the series. I didn't see the version of Frank and what they wanted from Frank. Didn't really make sense to me. And I thought I would, it would not appeal to the fans. It wouldn't be congruent. It was not something I really,

[01:12:53] I was really interested in doing. So we just had to walk away. And, uh, I, Charlie Cox and Vincent D'Onofrio also were very, uh, sort of upset with the direction of the series. They were upset that Bernthal wasn't part of it. That the, the original Vanessa wasn't a part of it. And I don't think, I think once we got to the writer's strike, the two of them were, uh, very vocal about that too. And I think the best shows have a core group of characters.

[01:13:22] And I think that core group of characters, uh, came together, including some of the old characters, which we, we got to see in episode one. So I'm very curious as to what it was about the way that they had him scripted. In the, in the, in the article, they don't give specific details, but you had noted that, that Bernthal does have, especially with the new show runner of the series, because, um, Dario Scarpe Don was, uh, the,

[01:13:48] one of the executive producers and writers of the original Punisher show. So he's very familiar with Bernthal. And I do wonder if they brought him in specifically to bring Bernthal back. Uh, but, but the way they describe it in this article is that this show was much, and I quote, softer. Uh, it definitively isn't a soft series, uh, even up to now. And I have a feeling we're about to go even darker places, but I, I think that Bernthal, you know,

[01:14:17] having read much of the comics and knows the history of this character, the Punisher is not a soft character. They've never tried to make him a soft character in the comic books. And I, I, it does make me question what they brought them in for, but it clearly was a softer version of what we got to see our, our first jump into an episode four. Well, if they wanted to make Bernthal's Punisher soft, he, he was never going to do that. Definitely. Definitely. Uh, uh,

[01:14:48] the, the scream meme. I'm sure we would, I'm sure he probably did a little bit of that. So, um, should we move on to the multi-season arc for muse? Yeah. Let's talk, let's talk about muse. Yeah. So we're, uh, roughly halfway through the first season and we've only caught a few glimpses of muse. We didn't really talk much about it. Um, but, uh, you know, he, we do see him in this episode, um, kidnapping someone, carrying them into his,

[01:15:18] hideout, lay, whatever. Um, and then proceed, which is surrounded by the, it's very dark. So it's kind of hard to see, but there's other bodies that are hanging. Um, and clearly, you know, the, he's got multi victims in there and then he starts draining blood out of them. And then you're led to believe that he's doing painting with the, with that. And, uh, he is a scary looking dude. The mask is pretty scary. Play it shot. They do. Amazing job.

[01:15:48] Yeah. Giving us the comic book version. There are a couple of differences, which I'll talk in the spoiler comic book section, which will be right after this. But, uh, yeah, the costume is amazing. So I guess speaking with TV line showrunner, Dario, got a, got a pain, got a pain, confirmed that muse will play a role in the first season and beyond. I call muse a quote. I call me use a stressor in this story. Scar, scar to poem says in that, in the battle between Fisk,

[01:16:17] Vincent D'Onofrio and Matt Murdoch, Charlie Cox music causes a ripple effect. He causes trouble for Fisk. He, you and I talked about this as being probably what was going to happen. We're going to draw them together, but he causes trouble for Matt Murdoch. Um, and the muse run for lack of a better word in this story has pretty shocking consequences. And those consequences don't end. We're carrying them into season two. Uh, and it's the best way I can put it. Um, so that's pretty cool. You know what I mean?

[01:16:47] And, and makes sense. Cause again, we haven't even really had any confrontation or clear other than this seat, this little segment we got this fourth episode, but you know, you can't have the big bad of the season show up at, you know, episode six or seven of an eight episodes season. Yeah. Yeah. So the fact that it's carrying over into next season makes sense. I,

[01:17:13] one of my favorite Netflix series of all time is a Fincher series called mind Hunter. And yeah, yeah. I've heard of it. I've never watched it, but I've heard of it. You know, it's, it's kind of the based on, you know, true story of, of FBI. Yeah. The initial, um, way that they started. Yeah. You know, being able to, uh, read, uh, serial killers, uh, by interviewing serial, serial killers. And they start doing this interesting thing as the series sort of

[01:17:43] starts to get its legs. And, um, BTK was, was a place they were going. So what would happen is at the end of several episodes, we would get a little taste of what BTK was up to on his way to becoming a serial killer. So we would get two or three minutes at the end of an episode of BTK. And you knew right away it was BTK. You know, he's driving a, a van for a phone company. And I, I don't believe, uh, got to the point where he was,

[01:18:12] he was killing, but we, we got a taste and, and it was a, a wonderful taste until of course they fucking canceled the series before we got to it. But, but I think, I don't know. And I've not heard anybody say anything, but it feels like that's what we're getting with Muse. We got the taste of Muse, uh, with, with the murals up to this point. And then we got this little segment just sort of tacked on to the end, which fits now where we get, as you mentioned, uh, Muse carrying,

[01:18:42] he seems pretty strong to me. Uh, uh, we'll talk a little bit about that in the comic book section. And he walks them in, we see the hanging characters. We see, uh, Wilson Fisk sort of notorious B.I.G. painting with him looking half good and half bad, uh, which kind of mimics, um, uh, that with a, with a, uh, a crown above his head. Uh, it does. And then we see, uh,

[01:19:12] just, you know, I, I don't want to say a prototypical comic book layer for, for a serial killer, but certainly, certainly was painted a certain picture, no pun intended of what we're about to see. So I, I, I like where we're going, um, with, with all of this, I, uh, you know, I serial killers and, and superheroes are not brought together very often. Although, you know, as you mentioned before, this does have a Joker feel to it. And yeah,

[01:19:41] I guess we'll talk a little bit more about that specifically when we get to the comic book section. Cause Muse is an interesting character and certainly not like anything else that you see other than the story that we've got from Joker and the common story of the Joker being kind of, my understanding is in the comic book, he actually is a mutant. Uh, we'll, uh, no, you get to that. We'll get to that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Do you want me to continue with the, yeah. Yeah.

[01:20:10] I guess Karen page and the anti vigilant, anti task force are spotted in daredevil born again, season two set picks. Uh, as the first season of daredevil born again continues, we'll likely find out more about muse. But in fact, some fans think that they've already figured out who the villain is. Thanks to the end credits of the last episode. Um, what, what's that? Did I miss something? Uh, Oh yeah. So, uh,

[01:20:39] as you mentioned in episode two, uh, there was a character who showed up twice, uh, who we thought might be muse. And in the end credits, that character was listed. Oh, yeah. So many believe that he is, uh, he is in fact, he is in fact muse. Yeah. Right. So we'll have to, and then I think it's, I know that I've seen the pictures of Karen page. Um, and, uh, he's, I think she's walking with, um,

[01:21:08] with Matt and they're both what look like undercover. She's got on like a big red wig and he's got a, again, these are spoilers, I guess. So if you don't want to know this stuff, um, and he's got his hood up or whatever, so he can't be seen as well, you know, and then the anti vigilante task force, it's kind of like a militarized version of the, police in order to hunt down vigilantes. I assume that's where we're going in the second season. Yeah.

[01:21:37] and I suspect that's going to be the basis for them to reunite the defenders. Ah, yes. And bring back, um, Luke cage and iron fist and Jessica Jones. And maybe, let's go, maybe the new white tiger and, um, and that they have to kind of team up together to try and protect, uh, vigilantes and, and other superheroes and, and fight, uh,

[01:22:07] fight Kingpin. Yeah. Well, it, it certainly seems that way. We shall see. We shall see. All right. Uh, and then the last little tidbit here is, kind of a neat little story that came or surfaced this week about, uh, how Robert Downing Jr. came back and how the Russos came back. And it, it's, you know, that whole crew from the first few phases, uh, the Russos and Downey and, um, Chris Evans.

[01:22:35] It's have such an amazing relationship with each other. And, um, I think Kevin Feige at one point was working really hard to try to get all of them to come back in one form or another. And, uh, all of them were like, nah, uh, but they asked, uh, you know, how did they get Robert Downing back? Not as stark, but as the fantastic four villain. Of course, he's coming back to play Victor Von Doom. And, um, that was Kevin Feige who came up with the idea, uh, to, to,

[01:23:04] to use, uh, Downing in a unique and different way, which of course would entice Downing. He likes different things. And this, this of course, you know, it was right up his wheelhouse. I can't wait to see him play, uh, the doom character, him revel in that character and watch how they incorporate how he looks, if at all. Uh, because of course, Victor Von Doom has a mask on. Uh, and then, um, how the Russos came back is, you know, right. Then they got Downey on board. So then Downey went to work and, you know,

[01:23:34] he kept going up to the Russo saying, Hey, I'm back. Why don't you come back? And the Russos were like the band together. Listen, we're not coming back. There's no good story. This is ridiculous. We're not coming back. And then a couple of days go by. And, um, one of their chief collaborators said, Steve, Steve McFeely said, you know, I have an idea. And after running the idea by him, surprise, surprise, the Russos go, ha ha. That's the story.

[01:24:03] That story has to be told. And it's McFeely is one of their main writers. Yeah. Um, and he along with, and I can't remember the other guy's name, but he has a writing partner who also works for the Russos company as well. They did both end game and infinity war. Yes. Yeah. And I mean, I mean, yeah, I'm in, um, what is the concept? The directors wouldn't divulge much until Joe offered. The only thing I will say about the movie is this. We love villains who think they're the hero of their own stories.

[01:24:33] That's when they become three dimensional and they become more interesting. And when you have an actor like Robert Downey, you have to create a well-shaped three dimensional character for the audience. So, amen. Amen. I agree. Whatever that story is going to be, I am here for it. I can't, I can't imagine. I, I, I just can't imagine a, well, the whole concept of, of secret wars, at least in the modern telling of it by Hickman, Jonathan Hickman, um,

[01:25:04] you know, it's Dr. Doom and, um, Dr. Strange, um, are given the opportunity to take the power of what these entities called the beyonders. Um, and doom ends up doing it because he thinks he's the only one can handle it. And also, um, Dr. Strange didn't think he could handle it. So he didn't want to do it.

[01:25:31] So doom takes this on in order to salvage what he can of the multiverse, pull it all together into one world. So in that sense, he saved a lot of lives and a lot of, uh, you know, what, what remained of, of the, of the multiverse. Right. So, yeah, I could see how he then, you know, sees himself as a hero. But meanwhile, all the other universes are destroyed. And also he ends up because of his freaking crazy ego,

[01:26:01] treating this world like he's a God. Yeah. And everybody basically bows down to him. So, you know, in one breath, he's this hero, but in the same breath, he's this horrible fascist villain. I agree with them, by the way. I think I don't, I enjoy the most watching conflicts between heroes and villains. Yeah.

[01:26:28] Where the villain thinks they're the good guy. Yeah. Um, and it's part of what I, and it's part of what I'm enjoying about this current daredevil run. You know what I mean? Yeah. I mean, I mean, at the, at the root of, of how D'Onofrio plays Wilson Fisk is that he's in his own way going to help his city. He's always, always said that. And I think now he's the mayor. So of course he's, he's the one that's going to save everything. Right. Sort of sounds familiar.

[01:26:56] And I think the best part of the, you know, the early phases of the MCU is, is, you know, Thanos, um, his, yeah, I mean, if you were a slanted human being, um, or, uh, a slanted being, um, living in that universe and you thought, yeah, I'm going to save all of the universes, by getting rid of this many people. And I'm doing it because it's going to help everyone. I, I guess,

[01:27:27] you know, I, there's a sense to it if you're warped and, um, you see yourself as a godlike figure. So, uh, I think, I think the potential for doom, who's one of my all time favorite villains, uh, stemming from, you know, again, Marvel superhero secret wars, the initial run came out in 84 rate in my wheelhouse of collecting comics. It's, I've got the whole series, um, and so many neat things come out of that series that I think are going to be utilized in this, uh, next,

[01:27:55] next incarnation of, of the MCU. I'm super excited about it to see what they, what they use from that, what they use from the, um, secret war series from, from past years, because another one came out, uh, it should be pretty fun. And of course, uh, not only do we get, uh, doom, but they're, they're hinting that this fantastic four movie has a couple of other characters that are going to play a big part in this too. So pretty excited about that. So,

[01:28:25] all right. All right. So that's our news. Now we are going to head to some listener feedback. Kirk, you're up. first up, we got Matt King who writes in and says probably the best episode so far. Great to see John Bernthal killing it as usual. Fist being serenaded by we built this city in Latvian. This was hilarious. He's gradually getting more and more annoyed with the red tape, but he has Adam locked away in a cell as a bit of a stress reliever.

[01:28:55] I agree, Matt. Well, I agree. Matt, your homework this week is to, uh, learn. We built the city in Latvian. And, and Colin, we built this city. Let's go. Oh, I remind you voted the worst rock and roll song in history. All right. Rinaldi. Uh, first of all, Matt and Rinaldi, thank you so much for your feedback. Absolutely love it. Uh, Rinaldi, I watched that scene with Matt and Frank a dozen times.

[01:29:22] It perfectly felt like a continuation of their debate on Netflix, daredevil season two, but also incorporated the story elements of episode one of daredevil born again, Charlie Cox and John Bernthal were terrific in that scene. I loved how Matt got the last word in the scene quote, foggy was the kindest, purest soul I ever met. It would take a lifetime for men like you and me to even be half as decent a person as he was. Goodbye, Frank. I definitely think the punisher cops,

[01:29:52] AKA punisher fanboy storyline isn't over. And those two will be working together on dealing with these cops later in the season. RIP Franklin. Only his mother calls him that foggy Nelson. It is funny in a meta sense that foggy and the punisher have the same first name, but drastically different methods to fight for justice. And I, it's funny. I, I, one's one Frank is a Francis and one Frank is a Franklin, but essentially they're both Franks. And,

[01:30:22] and I never really thought about that. That was a good connection. Uh, thanks for an all day for that feedback. I couldn't agree with it. I like to, Rinaldi called out, um, that line foggy was the kindest pure soul I ever met. I would take a lifetime for men like you and me. So in that, I think that, that line is important because it's tying again. Yeah. You know, Matt identifies. Yeah. With, with Frank. Yeah. They're, they're really two of a kind. They're just,

[01:30:51] they just have, and you know, how they handle it in the end is, is what's different. You know, he won't want some in jail and he wants them dead. Um, so, but essentially they're both fighting for justice and they're both trying to, to write the wrongs and, and they didn't, they never really kind of committed to that in the first series, at least not my recollection. Um, but they seem to have committed to it here. They seek some out here. And that, that line was a great one to call out Rinaldi. Yeah, for sure. And then Rinaldi is, uh,

[01:31:21] one of our most knowledgeable of it podcast, I guess, definitively one of our most, most knowledgeable fans. Uh, if you're listening to this Rinaldi and you want to be a part of this, podcast, maybe you can be a guest, just, uh, shoot me a message on podcast. Uh, and we'd love to have, we'd love to have you. Sure. That'd be great. All right. So we are going to try something new. Uh, it was driving me nuts. So I actually went out and read, uh, the comics that incorporated, uh, not all of them,

[01:31:48] but many of them that incorporated muse. Uh, uh, there are actually a couple little things that I want us to talk about. Uh, so we're, I don't know if this comic book connection is going to be something that we do every week, but, um, there are two specific things that I want to bring up. Uh, uh, Kirk shot me a text early in the week before I'd watched the episode. Um, but we had been kind of bantering back and forth about this. Uh, but why don't you go ahead and take it away? Um, um, Kirk, but you mentioned this and,

[01:32:18] and there was a tidbit in the comics that I had forgotten about. Um, of course I knew that foggy fake the death spoilers, but, uh, I, there was, there've been many significant deaths in the daredevil comics. Yeah. present and born again, uh, in daredevil volume two foggy Nelson, uh, was seemingly stabbed to death after visiting Matt who'd been outed as a vigilante in prison, uh, in a scene reminiscent of the series,

[01:32:47] Matt heard his friend's heartbeat slow and stop. And Matt attended his funeral, um, and acted out as the grief overtook him. Um, uh, but that was what daredevil. Daredevil 88. Uh, I guess we learned that fans learned that foggy was actually alive and well, uh, that was the born in 68th issue of the series, the secret life of foggy Nelson. And that, uh, issue revealed that Matt's longtime friend was alive and in witness protection. Uh,

[01:33:17] he agonized over lying to people knowing his friend's estranged wife and even his mother all believed he was dead. Uh, he also worried about Matt and how his death affected him in the story. He sneaks away from the FBI custody into the hands of waiting mobsters. Uh, oddly he's saved by ninjas. They kind of love comics seemingly working for the hand. Um, but I think another really interesting thing is that if you watch that first episode, uh,

[01:33:45] the very beginning when they're coming out of, um, what is it? I guess their, their offices. Yeah. They're coming out of their office. They're right. Yeah. Nelson, uh, Murdoch and page. Yeah. Um, and the number on the building number for that address or for that office is 468. So it's just a little nod of, you know, maybe we're screwing with you. Maybe he's not dead. You know, we'll see.

[01:34:15] We, well, and that, and what you brought out in the text that, that I'd forgotten about is the whole reason the person who sort of drove this, uh, putting foggy into witness protection was Vanessa, who was trying to get back at Wilson Fisk. Uh, so I, I, everything that we've been talking about, because I think that this whole Vanessa,

[01:34:43] this Kingpin Vanessa, kind of theory and her being bitter about. Right. Wilson Fisk sort of stepping on her toes certainly could have played. And perhaps, and perhaps hiring. I think our theory was that she may have been the one to hire bullseye to go after the foggy or Karen so that that would bring daredevil at Kingpin. Absolutely. Because again, promise in season Wilson, Wilson prompt Phil's fist promised that they would be safe. Right. And, and, and,

[01:35:12] but also standing in that same room was Vanessa who never made any such promise. So, uh, so I, I absolutely love that. I, I, I, even if it's not true, if, if foggy isn't alive, I love that, that there's no way that they didn't put either way, they didn't put that four 68 there on purpose. Maybe it was just to get us spending 10 minutes in this podcast talking about it. Uh,

[01:35:42] but, uh, the, the best parts of the MCU are the homages that, that these people who care about the fans put into their shows. And, and this definitively was one of them. So if this does become a true part of the show and we get a living, um, foggy coming back, I don't think it cheapens at all. I think, I think it paying an homage to the comic book is great. If he's not alive and we just get those flashbacks or kind of that inner voice, um, that is, is foggy. I think that would be great as well.

[01:36:10] As long as the show doesn't turn into the Dexter. Speaking of which let's talk a little bit about muse. So I thought for those of you that want to know backstory and I, I, I warn you there's there's spoilers, but there's, there's enough differences in the storyline of muse to not think that this is directly going to correlate. Um, but so I'm going to start to walk through this again. If you want to skip this part, because you don't want anything to be spoiled or you want to read the comics at some point, um,

[01:36:39] just go ahead and skip. I'd say five minutes, but I know the way Kirk and I talk. So let's say 12 minutes, skip ahead about 12 minutes. I'll try to put the time. 12 minutes each. Yeah. More like 25 or 30 minutes. Uh, yeah. Then round up. I mean, listen, if you fast forward 12 minutes and you hear me go and muse is Matt Murdoch's father. First of all, that's not true. And second of all, keep skipping. Anyways, I,

[01:37:08] I think it's worthwhile to talk about who muse is because, uh, Kirk made a great point to compare him to Joker. I think it was last week or the week before. And, and there definitely are similarities and there's no doubt that, um, that, uh, the creator of this character. It was this, it was this podcast. I know we've been going for a while, so I know it seems like a long time ago, but, but credit. No, no, no, no. We did talk about it in this pod. You mentioned Joker a couple of episodes ago.

[01:37:37] So even you forgot your brilliance. That's because we're old. All right. So let's talk similar. You can't forget what you don't have. All right. Sorry. Keep going. No, no. So, so Charles soul and Ron Garney created this character in volume five, which was in 2016, um, issues 10 and 11. Uh, and just to, you know, use this, the, the, here's where the muse is a killer.

[01:38:07] Um, similar to Joker and muse has no origin story. And I know that we've gotten a lot of origin stories in the movies for, for Joker, but most of the comic book origin of the character is that we, there's no back background for him. He is who he is. And he's kind of the alter ego to Batman. Um, I think soul created this character in a very same vein where, you know, daredevils compared an awful lot to, to Batman. And this is in a lot of ways,

[01:38:36] his Joker there. So there's no, um, origin story, uh, episode issue 10 of that series. We get to see the murals. They're very similar to some of the mirror murals that we've seen so far. Most of them were specific to vigilantes. Um, actually, I take that back in the first run. They, there was a big mural. Um, the first major mural that daredevil sees is completely red and daredevil walks up, walks up to it and doesn't want to touch it at first.

[01:39:06] I actually think it might be Matt Murdoch walks up to it and doesn't want to touch it. Uh, but, um, eventually has to touch it because, um, he wants to know how, whose blood is on there. And he doesn't know whose blood is on there, but his senses are keen enough that he can tell how many different types of blood is on there. So, um, he comes up with almost 113. He, he speculates that there's 113 different types of blood. So obviously we're dealing with a serial killer. Um,

[01:39:36] the cool thing about muse, which does make him a nice counter to daredevil is he's considered a vortex of emotion. He doesn't have any, um, he sucks in all of that emotion to get his energy, uh, which makes it hard for devil to find him initially. Um, blind spot at the time is this new character. I believe it's a new character created by soul as well. Who is, uh, sort of a mentee of dare, of, of daredevil. Uh, and it, in the penult, in the,

[01:40:03] all in the finale of this little run of us first getting to know muse, he literally pokes out, uh, pulls out the eyeballs of, of blind spot, blinding him. Um, but yeah. So you mentioned, uh, some mystical qualities to muse and there's speculation that he might be an inhuman because one of the things that he does in this comic book is he stages a bunch of dead in humans, um, in these mundane tasks,

[01:40:32] including one sitting on a shitter. Um, and also his, his vortex of emotion is a way of, it's a, it's a force. It's a power that helps him avoid detection by dare. Yes. Yes. Uh, so yeah, it gives him his, it gives him some power. Also, it also allows him not to be detected. All daredevil finds a way around that. Um, he does eventually get caught. Um, daredevil confronts him and catches him and, uh, you know, he gets put in, uh,

[01:41:02] in human jail. Uh, so that's the first little run with muse. It's a four or five comic books run. I read it online, but it's, I think 10 through 14 of that, that, um, volume five, uh, uh, we muse comes back into play. And this is where, again, if you're listening now and you don't want spoilers, this is where it's going to start to connect because Wilson Fisk in the comic book, um, does eventually become mayor and muses story. You know, he sees that,

[01:41:32] that Fisk becomes mayor and muse uses this to, he sees himself in the same vein as daredevil. Um, he's inspired as a vigilante himself. So he breaks out of prison. He murders a bunch of guards, uh, and he begins, um, painting murals, supporting all of the vigilantes that are out there. And we got to see this in last episode, I think,

[01:42:00] was it last episode or was it this episode that we got to see a mural of white tiger? Yeah, it was last episode. Um, honoring, honoring white tiger as a vigilante. And you can see like there have been, you know, these, these murals are being somewhat critical of where we're at. Uh, the punisher with the triggered, um, you know, by muse. And, and anyways, we're starting to see this muse character in the show,

[01:42:29] sort of emulating this muse character in the comic books. Um, police office, try and stop muse when he was finishing a mural of the punisher. Uh, and use just slaughters these cops, um, in the, in the comic book. It's brutal. It is fucking brutal. I, I, again, you know, if you're not a serial killer fan, um, we're heading down a path. So in this comic is as gory as it gets. I mean, he plucks out blind spots eyes with his two fingers.

[01:42:58] It is like pulling grapes out off of a vine. So this is a character that in the comic book is pretty brutal. And based on what I've been hearing Vincent D'Onofrio say about how, where the series goes, I have a feeling we're going to see some stuff. Um, Fisk uses that tragedy of these dead cops to further along his agenda as being anti-vigilante, blind spot who does gain his sight back from, uh, the hand, um,

[01:43:28] with some magic. Uh, he, he realizes that Muse is back and is, you know, obviously pissed. Um, so he confronts Muse by, you know, destroying one of his murals and, uh, blind spot. I, I have a blind spot actually overpowers Muse, uh, in it and, um, using the power of the hand and defeats Muse, but he refused to kill him,

[01:43:58] uh, as, because he's, you know, he's one of daredevil's people. Muse gets pissed at this. Uh, and, uh, you know, he's like, I wanted to die, you know, vigilante death and ultimately kills himself by walking into, um, a fire, uh, saying, uh, so much beauty is left. So, uh, that's kind of the run. Um, obviously we don't have a blind spot. Um, I think,

[01:44:27] no one's going to be, maybe, maybe Punisher is filling that. Maybe a Punisher. Cause Punisher wasn't in this. Cause Punisher wasn't in that story. Yeah. Right. Uh, well, so the news story, the only time we see Punisher is, uh, we get to see, um, he gets caught painting a Punisher mural. So murals in the backstory of this whole thing. Uh, but no, he's not a main character in this comic book at all. Uh,

[01:44:57] Muse does come back after that. Um, as they better not, they better not take out Punisher's eyes. Oh, well, that would truly indeed bring on a special presentation of the Punisher. Yeah. Right. So I, I, I, I guess my big takeaway from the comic books is that Muse is a brutal character. And, uh, if people were afraid that this comic book series wasn't going to, to be brutal, I think we've already got that answered,

[01:45:27] but I, I think we're just touching, um, the edges of, of where this is going to go. So I am pretty, I don't know. I will see how far they take it. Muse is definitively. Seemingly human in this. Uh, we can see his eyeballs. Yeah. Yeah. No sign that there's, there's other extra curricular powers. Yeah. So I just, I'm super excited to see how they correlate all these stories together.

[01:45:56] Cause we can definitely see the pieces. He's pretty strong though. He seems small and thin and young, but he's pretty strong carrying that whole body. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I, I mean, I, is he, is he inhuman? Uh, is he connected in some way to some other, other piece of this MCU puzzle that we haven't seen yet? What brings daredevil possibly into the MCU movies? Who knows? But, uh, I'm curious to see where it goes. Yeah.

[01:46:26] Me too. As far as all that goes. So, um, that's my comic book talk. I, I, uh, I guess if we get some, some close there, there, there's so much to the series right now that doesn't fit the comics, um, at all, which I, I like, I liked it. They're almost like tipping the edges of the comic books, but telling their own story. Uh, so, I mean, you know, like, I mean, I've got minor critiques so far, uh, but we'll become major. If at the end of episode six,

[01:46:57] we're still fucking playing some sort of, I'm not wearing the suit dance. All right. That's the end of the show. Believe it or not. Join us next weekend. When we cover daredevil born again, episode five, I am not going to give the title because last year I gave the title and it definitively wasn't the title. So just going to keep my mouth shut and wait until episode five comes out. and I do want to, I do want to just point out, uh, Kirk and I have no fucking clue how we're going to do the next two episodes.

[01:47:27] We might do them together as one. We might split them apart. Like we did the last time. Um, that did give us a 50 minute episode. So maybe that's the way to go. We'll just go into it. Like we're going to do one and I'll just split them in half and boom, there we go. Um, but yeah, so, uh, we will be covering that. Uh, make sure you watch those two episodes. Excellent. If you'd like to join the conversation, you can find all of our contact information at podcast.com where you'll also find links to our social media pages and to all of our shows.

[01:47:57] If you'd like to send a message, you can leave a message at the podcast podcast, podcastica Facebook site or email or send a voice message. Talk at podcast.com. And some of our most recent shows are of course, the last of us are, are, uh, I guess the, uh, the fulcrum of this whole, how this whole podcast thing started with Jason and Lucy, uh, the right in the middle of season four, which is one of my favorite, um, seasons with still, uh, that's the standalone episode with, uh, Daryl and Beth.

[01:48:27] Uh, and I'll just leave it at that. One of my, not one of my super favorite episodes, but, um, we're on an arc there in, in, in that series with Beth specifically, but it's, we really get to see a human side of Daryl in that episode as, as they're kind of off on their own looking for alcohol. Um, Peyton Daphne are back at it again with run for your lives. Where they go into the, that's where they go into the golf. Yeah. Yeah. They end up at the country club. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's a,

[01:48:57] it's a really good episode. Uh, again, run for your life with, with Pake and Daphne, wonderful podcast. They're covering one that gives me nightmares from when I was a kid. I think it came out in 79 or 80, but they're doing phantasm, uh, which I thought I would never have to have anyone mentioned again. And of course they did it on their podcast, um, worth a listen. Uh, and then, uh, I, I would be remiss if I didn't mention, uh, in my opinion,

[01:49:25] one of the greatest podcasts on podcast. Uh, maybe I'm a part of it. I don't know. but still slaying podcast is going strong. Uh, Penny, uh, my, my compadres, Penny, Kara, Sam, and some sloth of a guy over there doing podcast. Uh, they're current currently in season four of Buffy, which is the spike season where he becomes a regular on the show. Uh, and, and, uh, they're, they're doing episodes. I think for season four,

[01:49:54] episode six and season four, episode seven, six is, uh, spoilers. Uh, season six is Oz's last episode as a regular. And seven is the episode where we find out a little bit about the initiative and Finn. And then an angel, uh, sense and sensitivity. We get where we get to see angel with a little bit of sensitivity, uh, which is, um, actually one of my, I don't know if I'd call it a favorite at season one was a little weak for angel, but, uh, it was,

[01:50:24] it was a good episode nonetheless. So lots of good podcasts to listen to. And I just want to say this before we wrap things up. Uh, podcast is an awesome place. Podcasts are important, but you know, if you're on Facebook, if somehow you've managed to stay on Facebook, there's an amazing community there with lots of different ways that you can be a part of it. There's a cool Patreon site, uh, that some of us have joined. And there's also, um, if you don't like, um, Facebook, there are a couple of other ways that you can join. Um,

[01:50:54] but give it a peek. Uh, Jason has created a pretty cool, uh, culture and a pretty cool little group of people to talk about some fun things. And Lord knows, amen, Lord knows, um, being able to sit down and talk about daredevil. Although, although there's some parallels to this season that are making me cringe a little bit, but I shall digress. Um, but give podcast to go shot. It's a, it's a fantastic place to meet like-minded people.

[01:51:22] And if you like what we do, give us a five-star rating, a review or a like, and follow and subscribe on Facebook, Instagram, and Patreon. You can find all that information in our show notes, as well as podcast.com. Thanks for listening. We'll see you next week.

[01:51:40] I'm not seeking penance. I'm not how this works.

[01:52:06] What exactly are you going to do? Especially now, especially now on top of it, they're showing us he's got like five different helmets and five different suits. look, can't put one on. Hey, look, you can't put fucking one. Here's a, here's a red one. Here's a black one. Here's a black one. Here's a gray one. Here's the yellow one. Here's the yellow and red one. Fuck, fuck, fuck.

[01:52:36] Come on, let's go. I mean, I don't know about you, but I might find out where he lives. I might throw some of these. I might be the fucking new Slater, slightly fatter, way worse version of Daredevil. I'd be like those. Do you watch those memes or clips on Tik TOK or on Instagram or the, you got the, like the, the over 50 guys doing the race, you know, in the backyard at the picnic and like, they all come up lame in the first 25 feet,

[01:53:06] you know, pulling hamstrings. Can you and me, please? Can you and me, please put on one of these and. Yeah, exactly. Can you imagine us trying to. Okay. I bust my ankle just trying to get down the stairs, let alone blind climbing the fire escape. Yeah.