75: “Maya” (Echo S1E5)

[00:00:00] Hey everybody, welcome to the show.

[00:00:27] My name is Alex. So don't be confused. If anyone has any questions or concerns with the change, feel free to write us a talk at podcastica.com. We have our Sol the C's finale, and I know it took us a couple of multiverses to get here. But Kirk, you were in the other multiverse called Atlanta. The convention multiverse.

[00:01:42] How was the convention? It was crazy busy Saturday was probably the biggest single day I've ever done at a convention. So it was it was really successful. I was really happy and got to see a lot of people sell a lot of prints. share my art with a lot of people. So I had a good time. But I'm tired. It's a long drive. 16 hours

[00:03:01] down, six hours back.

[00:03:03] And I heard that you met up with my podcast partner for a And all the other shows that if you're into any type of comic stuff He's probably has it and hopefully you'll have some from stuff too. So that all said let's all get our vendor passes Because we got to talk echo because we are going to the powwow and let's go Hey, let's go. What is your first thoughts of the big powwow? I mean the final episode

[00:05:25] and watched it. But then I came back and yesterday I watched the entire final again, which I'm glad I did. So I'm right with you, Penny. I, in fact, have written down here, mixed.

[00:05:35] Splash. Some good things, some not so great. I think series as a whole left me

[00:05:43] a little wanting. I think it started out really episode was very much about the mother. I kind of feel like there should have been two episodes, like all this mother stuff. And then, and then from there,

[00:07:03] the Maya episode should have started. And, and a thing about eye movements and light that helps them do that.

[00:08:23] But it seemed to me like that's what Taloh she'll just do it. That was like the most romantic, I didn't get rid of your old crap moment ever. Yeah, yeah, exactly. I knew you'd come back. They're just so darn cute, those two. I want them to get back together. I was mad that Scully was not at the family dinner

[00:09:40] in the backyard at the end of the show.

[00:09:44] I will say, I just wanna see those two as a series.

[00:09:47] Forget the whole Marvel thing. how her actions can hurt other people or other living things when she hurts the bird. So her mother is a guiding force for her, helping her, and then just trying to show her that's not how we do things. You know what I mean? You don't hurt people, they can,

[00:11:08] et cetera, et cetera. And then you get this jump cuts, it's very touching and very powerful. I thought that was really great. You know, I think also it's interesting that healers are big characters in the comics. So it's so cool that this is now a power that she has. I mean, they're usually X-Men, they're usually

[00:12:20] mutants of some kind, but they tend to her costume in the comics, it's much more symbolic of that. She's got see. I didn't get the sense that that was going to be like her superhero outfit. It was made to be ceremonial for powwows. Right. I don't think it was made to be like a warrior's outfit. So I.

[00:16:20] Well, her mother touched her specifically about The only time it's swirled that that river, that river, that that pond was when she was in trouble, when she got captured. Every other time they showed it, it was always calm. And and I and I love how they bring that bird.

[00:16:25] Into it, because the bird would make life so much easier. You wouldn't have as much whatever. But yeah, I mean, that relationship with her mom, I'm so glad that she got it back, so to speak. Yeah, me too. I will. I actually took to Penny's point from earlier. I wish that

[00:17:41] we had gotten more of her mother. I feel kind of like Yeah, absolutely. I know. Clearly, he's been holding on for a while by saying, it was metaphorical. I kept it because I knew one day you'd return and I wanted to be here and be ready for you. What I didn't understand was the scene at the post office, where some kid knocks her mail onto the floor and then Kingpin helps her pick it up.

[00:19:05] Then Chula just reveals family information. stuff so she's in town from New York like I was like upset at her. It's like what are you doing? I mean, Kingpin knows all that stuff. But why was she just? I it just didn't make any sense. It was weak. It was bad. I didn't understand narratively what the purpose of it was either

[00:20:20] like just to make Chula look stupid or just to establish that there

[00:20:24] was contact at a time for Kingpin to have kidnapped her.

[00:20:27] I don't know. been not for lack of a better term, the muscle, but since she's an elder, you would think you could kind of capitalize on the Indian culture. She kind of is the glue in a lot of quick. She's a very important person in the tribe and planning everything and the powwow. You think that they had. And we used to spend summers there and we would go to the Chippewa powwows on they were like on Friday nights or something. And I have, I have like really fuzzy but fond memories of the experience. Oh, that's awesome. That's great.

[00:23:00] Yeah, we used to, you know, they would invite all the children in the audience to come and

[00:23:06] dance with them and teach us the steps and stuff. or something like that. Seems like they shot it as kind of an old school Disney Plus style rating. And then the decision was made to make it mature because it's going to have Daredevil in it and they're trying to hype the new Daredevil and that's going to be R rated or mature rated. So then they like shot the scene in. But it just, you know, and they pushed it all at the front. So when you start, I mean, I have to remember watching after the first and second episode here talking about it, I was like, this is awesome. This is like the Netflix shows. It's gritty. It's down and dirty. It's blown away. Yeah, it was. And then all of a sudden it like kind of hit a wall and-da-da. Yeah. No, but my point being is, you know, and I say this, it's hard when you have a second tier character and you're putting it in the forefront. Let's just first say that. It's hard to do that. I mean, they did that with She-Hulk.

[00:27:01] And I bring this up because you did the podcast.

[00:27:05] And she blew it out of the mean, I, I remember saying, cause I didn't know that much about Wanda as much as, you know, and I just didn't understand the whole context of it. But now that I understand the context, I'm like, this is amazing. And, um, you know, I know this isn't about that, but it kind of is because they're all Disney plus shows. And up movies. So they were shooting it as a movie and then breaking it into six episodes. And that's just not how you do, for lack of a better word, sequential storytelling. So now they're retooling the whole approach supposedly

[00:29:43] for going forward and they're hiring show runners truck. Yeah, I wasn't sure about that. We don't get to see it. But yeah. No, it's in his squashing, but it's close. Biscuit's monster truck moment was kind of out of left field because- That was awesome. That was awesome. We didn't see him putting, like they didn't connect the dots between him at the junkyard and the truck having monster truck wheels. There's like, it took me, I was like, where did he get

[00:31:01] the truck? Oh, is that, like I had to think about it. Which-

[00:31:04] Was that Shulo's original truck? I think so. like family and Scully isn't, I just thought that was weird. I didn't like that scene at all. I didn't like it in She-Hulk. It felt tacked on. Yeah, it felt tacked on. It felt tacked on in She-Hulk as well. I didn't care. I mean, and that introduction of Scar was just, or was just, oh my God, he was horrible.

[00:32:20] But yeah, this felt to me like they thought

[00:32:25] they needed this at the end to show yeah, I mean, that's Graham Greene, as I've said, the most famous indigenous actor in the country. And, you know, he had to go shoot that awesome scene in The Last of us, or maybe he had to do a Twilight reunion. That Last of Us scene was so good. If they got her. Oh, yeah, I love them. Oh, yeah. That would

[00:33:44] have been awesome.

[00:33:45] I don't know what her name is that she's from Northern didn't work as well as it could have. That's all. What did you guys think of the final scene? Not the not the post-credit scene, the big fight scene. Yeah. I thought it was cheesy that somehow Maya was able to like laser beam powers to Chula and Bonnie. Like where did that come from? She just

[00:35:04] like threw her powers to them. And then it know why. I agree. I totally agree. She, first of all, she's like so stoic. She's just standing there. I mean, she wasn't even in a fighting pose. They could have been so much more creative with how they represented, visually represented the echoing of these ancestors in her. You

[00:36:20] know, they could have been phasing in and out of her. They could have been.

[00:36:23] Right. my third point. So, plus, they've made so many great decisions through the first few episodes about when to put us in her point of view and her perspective so that everything's silent. And think seeing him, him screaming and yelling and not hearing him was really interesting, but it should have flipped in between being able to hear him and not hear him so that we could get both perspectives, like Bonnie's perspective, Maya's perspective, Kingpin's perspective.

[00:39:01] Instead, it was, it was just awkward and clunky.

[00:39:04] Yeah, I totally agree.

[00:40:01] I acknowledge.

[00:40:02] Yeah, exactly.

[00:40:04] And so she tries to help him.

[00:40:08] And that to me was the best part of that whole sequence.

[00:40:11] And also the fact that it doesn't work is great too.

[00:40:13] You know, that he's just, we don't know what it did.

[00:40:15] Well, it scared the shit out of him. That's for sure.

[00:40:15] Cause then he goes running away.

[00:40:17] But, but you know, we know he's going to go on to be a main

[00:40:21] villain in the Daredevil.

[00:40:22] So, um, you know, it didn't, it didn't work the way she thought

[00:40:26] it would work, which is good because it's not always going

[00:40:28] to work.

[00:40:29] You know what I mean? and how his father was basically trying to beat his mom through the wall, which is just a whole another issue. But yeah, the whole thing was so anticlimactic. I don't really know how to kind of process it because it was just like, that's the best we could do with that whole scene, I'm like, Maya would know better than to be like, no, they're really good leverage for you against me. No, I can't explain to you how much it matters. Like, she's been in that business with Kingpin for a while. She knows how it works. Right. Exactly. You don't want to say like, I love them so much. Don't hurt them.

[00:43:02] Please stop. They're the most important people but she ends up blinding him in both eyes.

[00:44:22] She doesn't actually shoot him in the head.

[00:44:24] She tries to shoot him,

[00:44:25] but it goes off in front of his face, I guess,

[00:44:27] and doesn't actually hit him. Any other notes, guys? Are we still doing points? I'm not trying to rush you. I guess I, there's not much meat on the bone on this episode. No, there's not. I wanted to just say a little bit about the powwow and what they mean to Native American tribes,

[00:45:41] indigenous people. The powwows are an opportunity to celebrate their music

[00:45:45] and culture and food's horribly racist. So I've stopped saying it and it took a couple of years to get it out of my system. And I just wanted to sort of ask the listeners to try to work on that as well. Okay, I do have a serious question about that.

[00:47:01] Yep.

[00:47:02] You know, cause Halloween is gonna come up.

[00:47:05] Yeah.

[00:47:06] And people are gonna wanna dress like Maya. It's about dressing as the character and not like using Choctaw as a general or any native person as a general category as a costume. It is a difficult line. I think it's gray. I think there's a lot of nuance in there and sometimes it can be really hard to figure out where the difference is. My issue with the powwow was that I thought it was very cool, very well done, beautiful looking, engaging. I thought it was really cool. Well, they could have made it so the powwow was part of the plan. Yeah. And there was no plan. I mean, they went as far as having the bad guy go with the RV to the powwow. Right. And then he just sat there and watched.

[00:51:02] Exactly. It made no sense. And like you said, she was going through the motions. And she saw the bird and I assume that's the building because she goes straight to the right building, right? So I was like, was that where the bird was? Is that how she knew which was the right building? No, they ran out of money and they said, I have to go to this building.

[00:52:20] Yeah, they just sort of cut right past that

[00:52:23] having any logic.

[00:52:24] It, absolutely. Even though he was a criminal, which is an important aspect of Maya.

[00:53:40] She's this vicious assassin,

[00:53:44] but is also very much a sensitive human person are already part of the Marvel universe with Shang-Chi. And they also relate to an alternate reality or another dimensional people, which ties into the Ms. Marvel story. So I just

[00:55:00] thought it was an opportunity to... We didn't about what you said, Kirk, about how awesome the first two episodes were compared to this. And it's like, it was almost like a different show or director or something. But all in all, it's over. I still loved it. I still enjoy it a lot. Yeah. I mean, I printed of her costume in the comics. So is that legible to you guys? Sort of, yeah. Sort of, yeah. I mean, it's a little less modest than what she ended up wearing in this. Yeah. But I get what you're saying. It doesn't have to have it up in midriff, but it

[00:57:41] just, you know. Yeah. Yeah. That's a little that could be that cultural issue. Yeah, that could be. Yeah, that could be. But they could have had the swirl on her face, on her face, you know, especially when she's, you know, using the powers. Yeah, it would be cool. Yeah. Probably too expensive. Yeah, exactly. More more CGI.

[00:59:02] We're going to take a break and when we get back,

[00:59:04] we're going to decide to do.

[01:00:20] Yeah. The new Daredevil, Echo season two.

[01:01:26] I'm surprised if we get at least one episode that has either a cameo or a full on appearance by Echo in the Daredevil series.

[01:01:28] I think that'll happen.

[01:01:30] Right, right.

[01:01:31] Yeah.

[01:01:32] They have a history, a big long history.

[01:01:34] She's a character who really came out of the Daredevil comics and they have a love history

[01:01:40] as well as being enemies as well as being partners in fighting crime. Hugh Jackman called it Wolverine versus asshole. Yeah, that was hilarious. I saw that. And then Deadpool versus Wolverine. But what I love about the whole entire trailer, I mean, yes, there's a whole bunch of Easter eggs and you probably go and watch a whole bunch of different videos about that. What I love about it is they're bringing back the X-Men of the cartoon look, you know, the question is, do you think again, do you think Loki's going to show up? I think I think Loki in some form, whether it'll be symbolically or whether it'll be metaphorically or use a color or or the tree of life, I don't know if he himself will have an actual role. Or do you think Loki is done like he? No, he presides over a trial that She-Hulk is brought to the TVA to have because she tries to alter the timeline in order to save Hawkeye's life at some point. And so then she gets dragged to the TVA and he's the judge that's residing the case.

[01:05:40] And I don't know anything about the actual story.

[01:05:42] I didn't read it.

[01:05:43] I just read about it.

[01:05:45] But I thought that was kind of cool. cool sci-fi ideas as well as this unbelievable performance by Tatiana Maslany where she plays like two characters, then three characters, then four characters, then five characters, then six. And after a while, there's like 14 different characters that she's playing. That's what the thing is. You think she's everyone. Yeah.

[01:07:00] Yeah.

[01:07:01] And sometimes she plays one of the characters pretending to be another character. And you happen on that. But yeah, I did not watch that show growing up. I know there are some people that are just can't wait for that because it's like it symbolizes their entire childhood. But I was kind of like too old for that, I guess. But I saw the trailer and the animation looks definitely stepped up from where

[01:08:20] it was back in 97. So I'll definitely give it a go. And the

[01:08:25] thing that's going to be interesting is if they're going

[01:08:27] to relate it in any way to MC been predicting who this is going to be for as long as I can remember. And of course, we got John Krasinski's portrayal in Multiverse of Madness,? Oh, I think it's fantastic. I couldn't be happier. I think Pedro Pascal is such a fantastic actor. And he can do no wrong and anything that gets more Pedro Pascal on my screens is a good thing.

[01:11:02] Yeah, I agree. I agree. Absolutely. Like I said, I like K't partake in it, they didn't show us when Thanos took out Zandor to get the Power Stone, and that's where Nova comes from. And so, of course, everybody thought at the time, well, that's because they're going to make that part of the Nova story, and we'll get to see that happen. And maybe that is the plan. But my God, they just... I mean,

[01:13:48] somehow sent back to the 60s or through the quantum realm. There has to be a way for them to develop their powers, which in the comics was they go up into space and they get bombed with cosmic rays. Right. So the thinking is is that they'll have to go through the quantum realm, because we know already from Ant-Man and Janet Pym that you can develop powers from the quantum realm. So that may be. And that they're going from our universe to this alternate universe where they, you know, in the 60s. And then they get there, they end up having, having their powers, but then they end up coming back to the present. I don't know, that's just a theory. But they've never explained what

[01:15:02] that ship was. And it was kind of odd that it was so I can leave proper feedback. Anyway, I just wanted you to know you have at least one listener, LOL. Oh, and don't think and I don't think you guys are confused about the family at all. It's just that there are loose threads. The show hasn't addressed such as Bonnie and biscuits as parents.

[01:16:23] In the beginning of the series, Premier Scully tells a story about biscuits his dad and talks about him as if he has since passed away.

[01:17:22] You know what I mean? Yeah, you could only do that if you're willing to do a so-so skim cover.

[01:17:28] And you have to, you want to give each episode enough that it works.

[01:17:35] But yeah, it's definitely a problem.

[01:17:39] Maybe it's two per episode instead.

[01:17:41] Maybe.

[01:17:42] Over in two episodes, I don't know. time a lot of action too. I want to visit America now to see a powwow. Well, you know what's really nice? We have our tour guide. Her? Which should you? Well, I'm just saying like, if I'm going to watch Netflix shows, I wouldn't watch the Punisher until you've watched the Daredevil. It was at season two.

[01:20:20] Yeah, that's where he gets introduced, right? one, they'll be like a whole multiverse. And oh, there already is. But folks, I can't believe it. We got through all five episodes. It only took us two months and. And we're all still talking.

[01:21:40] Now, I just want to thank I just want to thank Kirk for

[01:21:43] for introducing me to Echo and also podcasting with me. You have still slang going on. I have what is from and Daddy Daughter Bookworms. And I know, you know, we've got Run For Your Lives. They're always doing some kind of creepy show. And we've got the rewatch of Ted Lasso that Kristen and Ben are doing. And then we've got some new show coming up. I think it has to do with The Walking Dead.

[01:23:00] Did you hear about that?

[01:23:02] I heard something about it.

[01:23:03] I heard something about it.

[01:23:07] And that's a whole other thing. Yeah, we got a lot of stuff going on and then in con seasons got a lot of stuff going on Then I wanted to thank penny to penny. Thank you so much for joining our group here and helping out with echo It was great to have you Thank you for inviting me. It's been a blast. Well, I'm glad you I'm glad you enjoyed it because it's been great having you oh And I was gonna say and soon Kirk will read right over on the still slaying cast. We got to figure out

[01:24:25] Wyoming works an appearance. Yeah