RFYL 266: Oculus

You're listening to the Run for Your Lives Podcast.

Hey everyone, welcome to the show. I'm Daphne.

And I'm Pake.

And this is the Run for Your Lives Podcast.

This episode, I've been I mean, I'm excited for a lot of episodes, but this one I've been very excited for for reasons, uh, is the supernatural horror film Oculus, directed and co-written by my Lord and Savior Mike Flanagan, and released April 11th, 2014. So an older one, one of his first. Early Flanagan.

It's Early Flanagan. It's another one in his movie series. It's before he started casting the same people, although I've got a whole thing about that.

We will I've got a flamily breakdown that we can get into. Yeah, uh, because there's still some flanagan movies we haven't done, so we gotta get back to the to the main man, you know?

Uh we do. And you only had a week to prepare for this because I basically decided for us last week. Like, we need to do that one, so let's do that. Let's do uh Oculus.

Yeah. Which was interesting getting into this because WWE Studios is behind this. And I was like, the f that I didn't expect. Weird. Uh also working with Blumhouse at the time. I was like just watching like the opening things. I was like, Yeah, yeah, this is really before he f etched his way into legend. Uh yeah. This is early Flanagan.

It is, but it still has some of the telltale signs, I think, of him and his direction, how he puts stories together, how he composes scenes and uses different parts of even the set and lighting to add to the story. Yeah, he's he's fantastic. You know, anytime we can talk about something to do with Mike Flanagan, we're going to. And so for some reason last week we just I don't even remember. I just know that at one point I said, you know what? Let's do Oculus next week. It was on the episode, so we had to do it.

Yep.

So that's what we're doing. It's interesting though. Flanagan, they wanted him to film this like a found footage film and not like he did. And if he had, they would have backed it earlier. Like 2006, they wanted to do it, but they wanted him to do it this way, and he said now he wanted to do it his way. And honestly, I get, you know, it's early Flanagan. He hadn't, you know, mesmerized us with the haunting of Hill House or any of that yet. However, I'm glad he stuck to his guns with it.

Yeah, because a lot of those specific choices that would not have worked in that medium or that form are things that he still does to this day, those like flanagonisms uh that definitely like him loving to play with with time and and flashing back and forth in timelines and stuff is something he does very well. And so we're seeing very early on here how well he's already had mastered that to we'll talk about it and we'll get more in depth, but yeah, to the point that like it's it works so well in the movie, it's kind of a character in its own self, is like we're put off balance the same way the main characters are to where you really start questioning what is real and what is when. Like where are we right now? What's happening? And it it's confusing, but like in a good way, on purpose. It just meant to kind of take you off your feet and you know off balance a little bit.

I love the way that things shifted between times, and a lot of times it was done with lighting or clever storytelling, just a look at a certain point, and then it shifted right back, and you don't feel disconnected from it. Yeah, you feel like it's seamless, and that's not always how it goes when movies play with time like this. Yeah. It could pull you out of the whole story if it's too jarring, but it's so seamless how he just continues to tell the stories this way. And imagine this is the early days, so he's perfected it now.

Yeah, oh yeah.

I also did find out that that mirror that he used in this movie has appeared in several other films as kind of like a little Easter egg. It was in Ouija, Origin of Evil, Gerald's Game, The Haunting of Hill House, and in the Ovallook Hotel in Doc to Sleep.

Nice.

Yeah.

Which again, as much of a you know, the gospel of Flanagan that I preach always, this is one I had not seen before. There are still a few of these early movies that I haven't watched yet because I'm too busy trying to re-watch the newer stuff. Uh so yeah, so we we've got to get into those. I think, you know, with like Ouija, Origin of Evil, as you mentioned. I haven't seen that one yet, so that. And then also, I and I haven't mentioned, because like I said, I've got a family breakdown I'll do in a little bit. Uh Absentia is the only other one that he did before this. And it's a full-length film, but it's very low budget, very but but there's a handful of people from that that are in this that like most people don't even know that one exists, and so again, that's one I haven't seen. So it's like, well, yeah, if I'm gonna complete the Flanagan collection, we gotta we gotta complete them all, we gotta do them.

Always, yeah.

And I think Absentia is on Prime as well right now. It's just watched this.

Yeah, I saw that way back.

Ouija at least is, I think.

Yeah, I don't remember anything about Absentia at all. Um, but I remember that I have seen it, I just I couldn't tell you what it what it's about. I think it has to do with the hospital, but I don't I don't really know. Um I watch a lot of movies, and there was a period of time that I watched movies all the time. And after a while you just tend to forget things.

Yeah.

This one in particular reminded me of a bunch of different movies for a bunch of different reasons. Reminded me of Amityville Horror, the whole um her biting into the bulb reminded me of a scene from Poltergeist, which is another movie we have not done. It's a classic that we need to do. Um, and also the Tommy Knockers, which was a Stephen King book and a not very well done miniseries.

Maybe let Flanagan redo it now. Yeah, those years later. He'll do it right.

That's what he does. He comes in to save the day.

Yeah, especially Stephen King. He it he is Stephen King's go-to on adaptations right now, and with good reason.

Yeah. I know we've talked a lot about that, not on the podcast and on the podcast, but also outside the podcast, just about how we've come to trust him to be the one to do the adaptations because so many failed that you have to start wondering what the problem is. Stephen King liked this movie, really liked Oculus, and parts of it also reminded me a little bit. I mentioned the Tommy Knockers, but it reminded me a little bit of Stephen King and his storytelling. So it isn't my favorite movie, but I did like parts of it I really liked. And then there were some parts I was like, oh, I don't know. Not in a midsummer way, in a different way. Like it was just kind of like, I don't know. And I don't know if it's that supernatural horror is not always my thing. It's it's gotta be. But I'm okay with it because I don't have to love everything Mike Flanagan does.

I don't know. I don't know. It feels like a crime to me, but yeah.

Then if it is, then you'll have to arrest me because you know, that's just how it goes. So let's do this the way we always do. Here are some production notes. I feel like I've given a lot of production notes already, but there are a few things left. It was filmed in Mobile in Fairhope, Alabama. It was Mike Flanagan's second film, as we mentioned. I feel like this is before he started really casting the same people, but you said that you have some things to share. So we will talk about that in a bit. The budget for this one was 5 million and it grows to 44.4 million. I think that's a success. That's great. I also think this came out at a time where the minimal investment movies like this, The Purge, and some of the others really blew up. Yeah. And, you know, this is this is what we have. So it's 103 minutes long. Paik, give us a synopsis.

Alright. Haunted by the violent deaths of their parents ten years or eleven years earlier. Uh 10 years is what I pulled, but it said 11 in the movie. Uh adult siblings, Kaylee and Tim, are now struggling to rebuild their relationship, and Kaylee suspects that their antique mirror is behind the tragedy and contains a malevolent supernatural force that infects the mind of anyone who gazes into it.

I would say that that uh, you know, that that works. I think by the end, Alan was doing everything except having sex with the mirror. He was incredibly close to it. Um, there were points that I wondered if he was jealous that his wife was also getting sucked into the mirror, but then at one point he wanted the kids to stay in the room and play video games in the room with the mirror, and I'm just like, he just wants everyone to get in on it. I don't know. But yeah, the cast I thought was great. I mean yes. I have to say, um, in my notes, if you looked at them, you would see not the name of Kaylee or young Kaylee. It would basically anytime it flipped and it was on the young Kaylee. I know Annalise Basso from Snowpiercer, she was Lila Fulger Jr. So LJ is written completely through my notes because that's that's how I know her, and she was a devious little witch on that show. So not so much on this one.

Interesting, because I only really know her from one other thing, which I'll talk about later. Okay. Probably very soon, because I want to get to it. But but yes, uh and she's definitely not a bad character, she's incredibly lovely in the other thing.

Uh-huh. I think I know exactly what you're talking about, even though I haven't seen it. I have did go and look up her bio.

Yeah.

Because I forgot how wonderful she is. Like, she's such a great little actress, and and in this film, I mean you could tell throughout the whole thing, like it was written, her face, like all of it. It was it her character went through a shit ton. And it makes me think about at the beginning of the movie, the doctor is telling Tim that he needs to protect his recovery because his sister has been out there and dealing with all of these things and hasn't had the support system that he's had. And I think that's a parent once we get out there and and we see her, she's been really focused on this idea that she has about this promise that they made to each other when they were kids, that we don't really know what it is until we get to the end of the movie. And I think it's really true. There were things that kind of piss me off about adult Kaylee pulling him back into this.

Yeah. I I I get the idea that knowing what they're up against and the promise that they made, it was kind of like we have to do this together because I mean, just one person with this thing. It's not gonna work. We have to be able to be there for each other to try to keep each other grounded in reality. But it also, like you said, is kind of horrible that he has gotten himself in a like good headspace and a good place in a positive place just to be dragged right back to this.

Yeah, I don't think it was right for her to do this to her brother. I think while she had her own demons, I feel like Tim, as we learn through the whole movie, what he had to do and they dragged him away after it, and I'm just like, his father killed his mother, and you're gonna punish him? Like, what the heck is but I think it was more tied to the fact that they just kept saying it was the mirror, and that made them believe that he needed psychiatric help.

Yeah.

Which I think he did need some psychological help because he killed his father.

Yeah.

Or rather, he didn't kill his father, his father killed himself by pulling the trigger.

Yeah. But still, that's a lot for a young boy to to deal with.

Yeah. It it's a lot for anyone to deal with when you're taking another person's life. I mean as a character in this movie, I just feel like he was traumatized by the situation. And I'm glad that he at least had the support system that he had. It took a long time though, because he was just a kid and 11 years, it took 11 years of him being locked up. And I think during that time he probably really needed his sister. And I get the impression he really didn't get many visits from her. So he while he had the support of the other people, I'm just not sure he really had her support. And you could tell that they were a close family, especially the two kids. Like they went around playing laser tag together all the time.

They loved that.

They did.

Honestly, that's super cool. I would love that. It's really awesome.

And when things started to going downhill and and getting very difficult at home, they had each other and they relied on that bond a lot.

Yeah. Yeah. The the the siblings there, which, yeah, I mean, the core, the crux of this movie. And you know, I don't know. I mean, Flanagan definitely has some say in casting now, definitely. Again, the Flamley thing. And I'll go ahead and get into that just because while I have the notes and let's do it. But uh But as far as this early, how much he really had a say in casting a lot of them, I don't know. But I think it is the casting is what really carried a lot of this movie is not only Karen Gillen and Brendan Thwaites, uh, but also Annalise Basso and Garrett Ryan. Yeah as the children. Which which the casting, just the way that they look like they're, you know, the adult and kid counterparts the casting.

Oh, they do was so good. So good.

But then e but then also the chemistry that the actors have in both pairings with each other was phenomenal. Uh of course, the Kaylee of it all, definitely some Flanagan flamily stuff in there. However, I thought it was interesting that uh the character of Tim, both ages, is really the only one of the only is like probably the only main character in this movie that's not flammelly, really. Britain Thwaites, this is the only Flanagan thing he's ever done. Um, which is still great to see him, because I don't think I've seen him on screen since we covered Office Uprising.

Uh Yeah, I know, right? This is such a fun one, too.

Yeah.

This is a very different look. Yeah. Very different look.

And then, of course, Garrett Ryan uh kid Tim, even though he has not done anything else with Flanagan, I was like, why does this kid look so familiar? And that is uh he is the young Josh Lambert in the uh Insidious movies with all the flashbacks of Parker Crane going after Josh as a kid. He this is young Josh. So that's why we have seen him a bunch and talked about him on this book before. So I was like, why does this kid look familiar? Oh, that's why. Okay.

Yeah, I mean, that's true. That connection. Yeah, absolutely.

But yeah, so the flamily stuff. Because yeah, at first I was like, I didn't think there would be anything really in this movie either, as early as it was, and just kind of scanning. Other than Kate. Yeah, and then looking into it, I was like, oh no, like he still has done a lot. It's a lot of small things, but get to it. Of course, Karen Gillen until recently wasn't a Flamley thing. However, she is in the life of Chuck. Um, which Daphne, you have to watch the movie. You know what?

I know.

We're covering it. That's how we're gonna do it. It doesn't really fit our usual dramas, I don't think, but there's a supernatural element to it in some degree. So it feels like it has to be done, or there's no way I'm gonna I have to force you to watch it. So we're gonna have to cover it.

That's the type of thing that has to happen sometimes. Like, I know that I've had to say, okay, you haven't seen it, we're covering it. Like that's made it happen.

I can make it work. You know what? We're we can we we're gonna do it.

Uh well, you know, too. This is uh season 11 of Run for Your Lives, and it really has become the supernatural season because I feel like a lot of the movies this season have been in that realm.

And so which I know you said it's not necessarily your favorite. I think a lot of the reason that we've done a lot of them this year is because it might be my favorite, or at least one of them. I'm a I'm a big fan of supernatural horror, so that that lane has been in there. Yeah.

I live with someone who is a big fan of the supernatural horror, and and so he watches them a lot.

Yeah.

Um, but it yeah, it's not my thing. I don't know. I like all different types of horror pretty much. Although there are some, like there are movies we've covered on this podcast that I didn't like the first time I saw it, but then once we covered it, I learned to appreciate it more.

Yeah.

Like mm-hmm. Um But I don't yeah. If you think you can make it fit peg, then we will cover it.

Yeah, we're uh whether I can or not, we just I think it just has to happen. Um but it does it, I think in the slightest way. I can be like, yeah, I can make an excuse for it. I won't tell you why, because you gotta watch the movie. But how can you do it? Uh but yeah, so Flamley breakdown, just looking through the cast. And eventually I gave up because a lot of like the uncredited roles have been in like they're also like one-off little like background characters in Absentia or something like that as well. So eventually I stopped by have some of those because it was like there's a lot of little roles that were also in early little roles. But um, Katie Sackoff, who played Marie, their mother. Um, same as Karen Gillen, not anything for a long time. However, she is in the upcoming Carrie series. So finally, full circle, finally coming back to Flanagan.

Okay.

And when when that comes out soon. Um James Lafferty, who played uh Kaylee's fiance, Michael, was the thing of Hill House.

Yes, I know him from One Tree Hill, even though I really didn't watch very much of One Tree Hill. I just remember he was one of the people from that show because it was everywhere. Like it was a really popular show, and so the faces were everywhere.

Yeah.

And it was on my trivia last night, it was one of the answers. Yeah.

So you did Hill House. Of course, Kate Siegel, Mike Flanagan's wife, who plays uh Marisol Chavez or the ghost in the mirror, the uh the woman in the office. Uh she's just been in everything.

Um But she hasn't. There's some that she has not been in. Mostly.

Mostly.

Mostly, yeah.

Uh and then yeah, little things. Scott Graham uh was in absentia. He played the character of Warren, uh, Mark the Supervisor, which I don't even Some of these I'm like looking through because I was like, I don't even remember them in the movie. I don't remember who they were. Uh Mark the Supervisor, maybe that's the guy that was in the like warehouse with her when she was getting the mirror. Um, but he was uh small, like a bit or more bit part in Before I Wake. Uh Katie Parker, who was in the phone store, uh, is a Flanagan regular. Uh Follow the House of Usher, Midnight Club, Bly Manor, Doctor Sleep, Hill House, and Absentia.

Oh, right. She's she's the flapper girl in Hill House.

I remember that.

Uh-huh.

Yeah. Yeah.

In a lot of like little bit parts. Of course, at the uh end of the movie, when like we flash back to the police officers that are arresting. Officers one and two. Uh Brett Murray, Officer One, Life of Chuck, and Gerald's game. He did the sound department for those movies, not an actor. But he was an actor in Before I Wake. Um, well, Zach Jeffries, Officer 2, was in absentia, one of those smaller ones. Uh Courtney Bell, who played the auctioneer, who auctioned off the mirror, was in absentia and before I wake. Uh Robert Clancy, one of the ghosts. Uh Dave Levine was in absentia. And then um the character of Tobin, that I don't really remember. I think, oh, he was another one of the ghosts, I think. Um or they, uh Jamie Flanagan, which is Mike's younger sibling, and they have been a writer and collaborator on most everything that Mike has done.

So that's amazing. Uh you didn't say Annalise Basso, and she was.

I mentioned her and then I forgot to come back to her. That's it. Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah. Annalise Basso, yes. Uh Ouija Origin of Evil, which we haven't covered yet, and then of course, Life of Chuck. She's a pretty big part in that movie, and it's great.

Well, she was LJ in Snow Piazza, that's what I remember, and she was fantastic. She was so bad. A character that you wanted to hate and you did hate, but you also loved how freaking diabolical she was at the same time.

Yeah. Which, you know, uh Ann Elise Bosco, I did I wouldn't have recognized her right away from Life of Chuck because again, this was 10, 11 years prior. Yeah. Uh and so uh in Life of Chuck, she's that came out last year, or yeah, so she's a very full adult actress in that movie. You know, um, but then once I saw that, then watching the rest of this movie, I'm like, oh yeah, that definitely is her. That's awesome. Yeah.

Yeah, she's fantastic. So we'll have to uh also cover we're gonna have to cover um Ouija, Origin of Evil, which I think is the second movie.

Um third if you count Absentia, right? Or was this also before was that also before this one? I don't remember.

In the Ouija series.

Oh, in the series of Ouija movies, I don't know. Yeah.

Um Yeah, it's it's the second movie in the series, but it's a prequel.

Okay. So do we need to know anything about the other one? I don't know.

I don't I don't think so. And the thing is, I've heard that the other one isn't very good, but the origin of evil is good. So, I mean, come on. Are you are you are you a flanagan snob? Like are are you your snobby?

Maybe I don't know if that's the word I would use, because would that like a music snob I don't I don't know. I don't know. Depends on the definition.

I mean you go to the church of Flanagan, so I do.

Absolutely. As I just assume that like Flanagan is better than everybody else, always maybe. Um I don't know.

Yeah. On your little list of things that are better than everything else. I know he's on there. Along with Edgar Wright, pineapple on pizza. Yeah, you've got this long list of things.

All the things that are just great and better. Yeah.

Uh-huh. Sure. Sure. Keep telling yourself that about the pineapple on pizza.

We'll continue to tell myself the truth every day.

Um, we didn't uh mention Rory Cochran. I think his name is Rory Cochran. He played Alan the Father.

Yes.

And I wanted to just mention him. I know him from I think it was Empire Records, which was such a great movie, Peg. I know you've never seen it. I think you would like it because it has to do with music. I really do. I think you would love it.

Yeah.

For for real. Yeah.

Yeah.

He hasn't worked with Flanagan before, so I don't care. No, I'm kidding.

Uh-huh. See, that's what it is. You're a snob. If they haven't worked with Flanagan.

Then why should I care? Yeah. No.

Uh-huh. That's what it is. That's where you're a snob.

You're not good enough for Flanagan. You're not good enough for me to watch. No, uh-huh. Wonderful. No. But he does have some great cast that he uses in a lot of stuff. But yeah, but this was this was before a lot of the flannan regulars that we would know today. Other than Kate Siegel, of course. Uh but yeah, a lot of his nowadays, his current day regulars have yet to come onto the scene in his stuff at this point.

Yeah. And now he's got a whole table devoted to it on Wikipedia that shows all the different people that he's worked with them multiple times.

Yeah, there's no Raul Coley here, there's no Igby Rigney, there's no Samantha Sloyan, there's no uh Yeah. Uh no Zach Guildford. But we'll get to those.

So we've talked around the movie so far. Uh-huh. I mean, we're talking about siblings who went through a traumatic experience when they were children. And we mentioned that Tim has been institutionalized for the last 11 years, is finally getting out, and his sister taking him away to her house. Luckily, though, I think he was not gonna stay at her house. He was staying somewhere else.

Yeah, he just got like a hotel or motel room, even and because as you said, you know, protect his recovery a little bit. He was like, maybe going right back into like our dynamic is not the best. And we really see that that's probably the right call because she is still very obsessed with this laser glass and the mirror and all of to where, like, yeah, she's going to the auction, which her fiance, Michael, runs the like owns the auction house. Uh so she kind of is also working there, so she's got the end to just kind of kidnap it mid-shipping. Um, but she's keeping an eye on it, which I was like, oh, the the person who won the bid won it over Skype. There's a person using Skype. Yeah, that dates this movie a bit. Absolutely.

Skype is now gone. I think a two years a year or two ago it went away.

Yeah.

Um, but it lasted quite a while, really. You know.

But yeah, as we're seeing it all set up. Flanagan loves his tragic family dynamics of shared drama for sure.

Always. He knows how to tell the story. Why shift from it? He does such a great job with it, so he'll pull at your hard strings.

Oh, yeah. You see Tim's um questioning pretty early on, and he's like, I just got out of this mental facility, and immediately my sister, who is supposed to have it all together, is like, we've got to rob somebody of this mirror that they just bought because there's an evil spirit and we have to kill it. So he's like, Great. Um, oh you're crazy too, and you didn't get help. Gotta like. Because through a lot of the therapy and stuff he's been in, he's for he's been so far detached from all of this that she hasn't, that he's forgotten a lot of this stuff. And I think it's kind of meant to be that way, is this kind of spirit, the further you're away from it, then you're gonna forget a lot of the things that happened.

Yeah, and I think he's rationalized some of the things that he thought happened and turned them into things that he can find a rational explanation for instead of it was the mirror. Like and that, if you look at that and how he's had to recalibrate his brain that way, it just makes you think about later on when they're going through all these things and they don't know what's real. Like, how do you know what's real? Your brain's been recalibrated, but all this shit's happening in front of you, and you don't know if it's real. And it isn't like, okay, here's this first thing, and that's gonna blow it out of the water. He was still at the beginning and a little way into it trying to explain it away as being explainable, basically. And that's not the case.

Yeah, I'll say you know, the the time in like a mental facility is rough, but all of that time in therapy has made Tim a very empathetic person. So even if he doesn't believe his sister, he's great for her to have around, at least for you know, the time. And it makes it where he's just like not just net rationalizing things, but even like with her being like, I know this feels real to you, but like basically kind of those like therapy things he's been through. He's like, You should step away, you should, you know, get some help. We should try to like talk through this, let's go somewhere else. And you know, he's he's trying to be he's very personable and like trying to meet her where he is, not he doesn't want to come across as calling her crazy. He's like, For you, this is real, so let's find out what steps need to be taken to make that better for you. You know, he's yeah, kind of you know, the the therapizing that he has been through all these years, he's like, it worked, so maybe you should do the same.

He's using the tools that he's learned through therapy, and he's trying to help his sister. I mean, she didn't even let him get a day. He just basically got out, and within ten minutes she was on him about, well, we need to do this with what you promised, and it really shows she's been obsessed with this for years.

Yeah, absolutely.

And it's he only gotten more intense.

And that's yeah, just to see where yeah, the difference is and where she is. And I like that because she's so deeply obsessed, that it's another way that this movie kind of keeps you off balance. Because like later on, you're like, well, what's real, what's not, when are they, where are they? But even you find yourself questioning a lot, is it real? Is any of it real? Or is even like, you know, we get the creepy mirror ghost, which is gotta love it. Uh it's the creepiest I've ever seen, Kate Siegel, and I love that too. It's fantastic.

Uh yeah.

But to where you're even questioning, you're like, is this an actual real threat in this movie, or are we just seeing through the lens of Kaylee and has she lost it? Like, is she mentally unstable? And that could be the twist. You know, having not seen this before, where I'm like, there's a world we live in where the twist at the end of this movie is that none of this is real and she has gone off the deep end.

Yeah. And I and the case can be made going back and forth that you see it through her eyes and through his. And in the beginning, he doesn't see anything, and even through the end, he doesn't really get see a lot because the mirror is messing with his head. Like he doesn't even see that his sister is in front of the mirror or anything that's happening with that. But it made me also think about Undertone and how we talked about you had the skeptical person versus the one who believes. And I feel like in this case, we're getting that again, where she deeply believes it and is obsessed, and he's been detached enough that he doesn't believe it, and he's trying to rationalize it in in his head, and to get his sister to understand that it's not real, even though we all realize it's definitely happening. Uh yeah. I mean, something's happening.

And her relationship to it is interesting because she knows the threat that it is, but it's almost like she holds it in like this way of respect, or at least, I mean, it killed her parents, so it's not like she loves it or respects it, but there is this awe of like I recognize the power that you this thing has, and so I have to make sure to do this the right way and cover all my bases. But I mean, when she goes to see it like in the warehouse, and where she's like, Well, hello again, you must be hungry, and I was like, Nope, I don't like that.

No, and I hope that the slice on the mirror, and she's like, I hope it still hurts.

Yeah. Whereas there's like this relationship with this thing almost because she's just thought about this over and over and over. Even, you know, I mean, saw seeing the statues that were covered in that warehouse. I was like, Well, I immediately know we're gonna get some movement from those, but even when she starts seeing those, she's not, I mean, you know, super scared. Like, she's not surprised. She's like, Yeah, you're doing it again. Here we go. Okay, let's play this game. Here we go.

Yeah. I've been down this road before. I know what you're trying to do to me. I'm ready to take you on. But is she really ready? Because I don't think I mean, I think she thought she was as prepared as she could be, but I don't think she was she wasn't prepared for this. She should have sought outside help if she wanted to do something with this. Someone in the occult that that could have talked her out of it, maybe even. I don't know.

In another in another universe, she's helped her brother before.

So Yeah.

Yes.

Yes, absolutely. She's the right person for the job. To be honest. She is. She's the right person. Need elise.

So that was funny. Whatever, this other guy that works in the warehouse. Like to him, it's like, oh, here comes Kaylee. She just loves uncovering things. All these antiques. Because he walks out and then he comes back in and like the tarp over the mirror, and both of the statues has been taken off. It's like, why you just come in here and take things off of this isn't your space.

Why are you coming in here and doing all of this? It does make me wonder if her connection with Michael started because of this mirror, and that maybe she's the fact they're in a relationship is all part of the long clo the game.

Man.

Yeah, I do have to question.

Yeah.

Although she was genuinely destroyed when she accidentally kills him later. But still, he was just part of the the plan, I think, in some ways.

Yeah. For this mirror so evil that plants start withering around it.

It sucks the life force out of things around it, because that's really what it's doing to people.

Yeah.

It is sucking their life out.

Yeah. In more ways than one. Uh yeah, it's like poor Tim. Tim, I feel like, is just like the absolute victim in this movie.

Yeah.

He's trying to get back to a normal life, and his sister meeting is like, well, come meet me at the house where all of our horrible trauma started. Okay, thanks. Bye.

Why? Why would you do that? Like, it just shows how different their lives have been.

Yeah. And I I do like the like, you know, don't just give everything away at once, but kind of sprinkle it in. Because we know something horrible happened when they were kids in that house, and that's like all we get at first. And then it's like, okay, well, something caused their father to snap, but that's not spelled out for us right away. We get like the little pieces and the flashbacks and we put it together as we go. Uh, which I like stuff like that. But yeah, and then you know, they they have some good little bonding, even though he's like immediately she's just like right into things. Now, owning a home at 18, that's cool, even if it is haunted. Or at least by terrible memories, though, Mirror's really the culprit of the ghost problems, it's not the house. But you know. Um then random note. I my I have like very ADHD notes sometimes because then it's like random, like you'll be like talking about the movie, and be like, oh, also, I watched Karen Gillen's Last Meals episode recently, uh, which is very random tangent, but uh, just throwing it out there because it was really quite fun. She's a super cool person. Uh but anyway.

Well, this movie was done just before she became Nebula and joined the Marvel universe.

Yeah. Yeah, she's put a lot of thought and planning into this. Obsessive, as we've said. Uh, and she's trying to prove the existence of this supernatural entity in the mirror with all the videos and the cameras and all this stuff, because it destroyed her family and her life, honestly, and so she's like Which we see it, you know, near the end of the movie, and like a lot of those ones where at the flashbacks and stuff, that like the actual memory of what she remembers what happened with their dad. It's like he sacrificed himself to protect them, and so that's in her head, she's like, I have to clear his name, I have to prove that it wasn't him, it was this mirror, it was this ghost, it was this Whatever it takes, I have to prove that because I don't want the world saying that he was a murderer.

Yeah. But in the end, it cost her everything, and it cost her brother everything.

Yeah.

He is the victim in all of this because he didn't do anything wrong.

No. And the fact that she does kind of use him, she throws him under the bus. Her poor little brother. Uh, you know, it's like has her fiance Michael calling to check in on her hourly. And instead of being honest and being like, just make sure I haven't been killed by the mirror ghost, she's like it's under the guise of like, well, I did just get my brother out of a mental facility, so he could be dangerous. So check in on me because it's his th and you know, obviously he's pretty offended. Well, rightfully so. He's like, I don't blame him.

It's awful. And you see the relationship they had as kids, and now this relationship now, and it's just like it's very sad because they were close as kids and they went through something traumatic together, and for whatever reason, what happened, and he was sent away for eleven years probably because he said, as I said before, the mirror did it. Yeah. Um and she ended up in foster care. And I I just feel like their relationship completely broke down because they didn't really have as much contact as they should have, because I don't think she went to see him very much.

Yeah. Like it seems like there there was some connection, and then because there's a point where it's like, and then she she says, like, and then they said I wasn't allowed to come in and see you anymore. And it's like, well, actually, he had then made the choice that he didn't want her coming anymore. So there was something there, but definitely not what it could have been, because instead she's taking all that time doing her homework on the entire history of the ownership of this mirror, where it started, all the way tracking it from the beginning all the way to their house in the early 2000s, and all the deaths that it's left in its wake, and the things that people did, and which, you know, she makes a compelling point with like the way that she's put everything together. It's like I mean, you can clearly see all of these people who were did insane things to others and themselves that you can't really explain, and the fact that all of these very unexplainable kind of phenomena are all around people who owned this specific mirror.

Yeah.

It kind of came out of nowhere. Like it's she makes a good point. Uh especially because it seems like when they first move into that house and before that mirror comes in, it's like they seem to be a great family, and it was just a matter of weeks if even that.

It seems like that's how long, because over and over it seemed like when she was explaining the different things that had happened, it was the sp a span of like two weeks before things broke down.

Yeah. So to go from like perfect suburban, you know, family to him brutally murdering their mother and you know, having to be in a situation where a a little boy has to step in and kill his own father, you know, to protect himself and his sister, it seems like it's like something really off definitely happened. Like that doesn't, you know, they don't seem like the family in a long list of other people that didn't seem like the people to just have. Something like that happen out of nowhere.

Yeah. And you see, you get the glimpse at the beginning of how happy they were. And then how it just spirals downhill through the whole movie. And it preys on doubts and insecurities and feeds it like it's a tumor.

Yeah. And it's she knows like what it is capable of like defending itself, she even says, is like, I do like those little moments of like every time somebody tried to like attack the mirror with Marie throwing something at it, or there were them with the golf clubs, it like it just gets into their head long enough to where they just start hitting the wall or they change the way they're throwing something that it it can immediately snap into somebody's head.

Yeah.

And so I liked her kill switch. It didn't work out great for her, but you know, the mirror killing weapon, which as soon as she set that up and it's like it's gonna go off. I was like, well, that's gonna come into play later, right? Again, watching this the first time, I like to make those little guesses. I'm like, uh probably not the way she wants it to play out, but I'm gonna say it's gonna come into play in some way. Um kind of her way of making the mirror play along. I like you know, she said it's like I'm gonna force it to come out and show itself because I've got a gun to its head, basically, because if it kills us or does whatever, that thing's gonna go off and destroy it. So But it found its way around that too, didn't it?

Oh, yes, it did.

It defends itself quite well. And then also just like getting into people's heads. Like it's like you say, like poisoning this family and really just like playing with even just like something as small as like the band-aid thing. With their father, just showing how it gets into people's heads where like he takes the band-aid off and then it's back on his finger, and it just creates this. He's trying to rip the band-aid off, and it's just his own finger.

With a staple remover cake. I've used those things. I do not like them. They, if you uh, it can be painful.

Or even like Marie when she's walking out of the room and then hearing, you know, him say Grotesque cow or something like that. Which he didn't, but she heard it in his voice, and it's it the mirror is working all sides. Chaos is the plan. Just un destabilize the entire family.

Yes.

Turn them all against each other, make them all start doing whatever.

Yeah, and it worked on Marie, and it worked on Alan. The kids not so much, but they weren't allowed around it as much, so I think they weren't as affected by it. Yeah. We do get it. Because they weren't there.

Little scene, like one little clip of Tim as a kid just standing in the like by the kitchen, just staring at the mirror, like zoned out. So it's like he's susceptible to it.

Oh yeah. Well, everyone is.

Yeah.

Like it doesn't pick and choose, it just goes after for it goes after what whoever it feels it can get its claws into, it's gonna go after them.

Yeah. It's and then look that's how it works. It changes memories, basically, as they're happening.

Yeah.

So it's it's very because even like the dog situation, we don't ever really with Mesa and the dog, like we don't ever get like even like a concrete answer on that. Because for Tim, he's like, Yeah, the dog was sick, we took it to the vet and it got put down. And Kaylee's like, no, mom locked it in there and then I sat there and watched it the whole time, and then we opened the door and it was gone forever.

I was so happy that Tim let the door open and let that little dog out. Or or or did he? I don't know. I mean, I I'm now starting to question what was real. But it looked like that's what he was doing. It looked like the dog got away.

Yep. So And and Tim's trying to like everything when they're going through all the memories, and we have, you know, the the woman in the office, Kate Siegel's uh Marisol, which is a previous owner and victim of the mirror, that the mirror uses its previous victims as these kind of faces that it can use. And even, you know, it's like Tim's creating this, and it's like, well, yeah, he was having an affair, clearly. Which if you really break that down, it's like he's having an affair in his own home where his kids can see it, but nowhere else. Like, really? Uh, but he's still trying to just justify justify it all, and it's like, well, it was an affair, or whatever. And she's like, I talked to all of his co-workers and everybody else, and there was no paper trail, which I like the line. She goes, if there was another woman, she was a ghost. And I was like, Well, the accuracy of that statement is actually.

I mean, to be fair, I mean, I don't know that Alan was actually hooking up with her in his office. I think that was just something that the kids were shown. But if so, the mirror was using a lot more than her face to get that across because there was that the scene where um Kaylee witnesses the two of them together and she's all over him. Like it's happening, which is crazy. You would not do that in your own home, like in front of your children. I mean, not if you had a clue.

Right.

A brain. And he's a software engineer, so you have to imagine he has a brain.

Yeah. And then even as Tim's trying to justify it's like if he would have been smart enough to cover all of his like other trails, then he wouldn't have be having the affair in the house if he was also going to great lengths to cover things outside. It's like it doesn't add up.

Yeah. It's crazy to me. It's crazy.

But yeah, so that you know, there's tension that keeps building between the two of them. And like I think one of the big things that really one of the big moments is, you know, they with him letting the dog out, like you mentioned, and they go out in the hall and they're having this argument, and they return to see the cameras and the plants all moved and all of this stuff, which they did, but they have zero memory of doing it just minutes ago. And so I think that's the moment that really kicks into Tim's brain, like, oh shit, you're right. Like something we did just because there's there is video evidence of us doing a thing that I do not remember doing, and that was just now. Like, where did that go? And so, okay, everything you've said kind of makes sense now as far as that. And then we just continue to see it escalate with the area of influence and the way it messes with people's mind. It implants false memories as they're currently happening, which is terrifying because then you don't know what's real or not. I'm doing this thing right now. Wait, no, I'm not. I'm actually doing a fully different thing, and Tim is seeing those effects. Like he goes outside, beyond the phone, and then he never left. He's sitting there by the door, and it's like it's throwing him way off balance. And you see, like, he's kind of having flashbacks of those feelings when he was a kid. And now it's it's a terrible place to put him in because not only is he dealing with it now, but he's also reverting back and dealing with the like suppressed feelings of it from when he was a kid, doubled on top of what he's dealing with.

Yeah, and we get to witness it because I feel like it's a tandem throughout the whole movie, is going back and forth between the past and the present, similar feelings, similar vibes, similar situations, only it's past and present. And he's reconnecting with emotions and feelings and stress that he hasn't really faced for a while because he had already dealt with them in therapy. And now he's dealing with it again. And he starts to question everything.

Like Yeah. And we do see how quickly things move.

Unravel, yeah, they definitely do.

We go from Marie just like looking at the mirror, feeling insecure about her body or whatever, to like minutes later now she's trying to choke her son to death. And then Alan gets home and he's actually trying to subdue the situation and calm her down, and then immediately, because he's now back in the house, that turns into him choking her unconscious and then chaining her up in the room. It just all so fast just takes control of their mind and leads them to do all kinds of things.

Well, my question was: who taught him to do that? Was he a wrestler in a prior life and he learned how to choke people out that way? Because that's what it was reminding me of.

Yeah.

I was wondering where the that's where the WWE Studios came in. I was curious about that because there was a period of time because like WWE Studios movies. Oh Because there's a whole thing, because the only way you know, the wonderful garbage person that Vince McMahon is. Uh that like the only way that WWE wrestlers sorry, superstars could be in movies and stuff is if they were it was part of WWE studios that WWE had to get a cut of it for movies to use their actors, uh, essentially. And so that whole thing, so it's like, okay, then what WWE person is in this movie? And there wasn't one. So then I was like, well, what was the tie? I I didn't even look into it, but I'm like, what is the tie-in for this?

Okay, so they didn't get involved until after. Like the movie had already been made. They they got involved on the other side of it. Um I can't remember if it was distribution or some other piece of it, but they weren't really involved in the making of the movie at all. They just were involved on the other side of it.

Yeah.

So it had already been completed.

Where does the WWE Mike Flanagan partnership, where does that come from? I don't even think.

I don't know where it comes from, but I don't I'm pretty sure I know where it goes, and that's nowhere.

Yeah, no.

It does not continue after this.

Yeah, good.

But you mentioned that, um, and this is a side tangent, a short one. You mentioned that WWE didn't want their wrestlers or superstars in anything unless they got a cut of it. That's one of the reasons why I don't watch that promotion. Even though I know it there's a different person in charge now, I can't bring myself to watch any of that because they're just not open to letting their talent do anything, really, outside of what they're doing. And I I don't want to really support that. I I prefer to let people, you know, do their own thing.

So there's many reasons why I'm I'm good with uh but yeah, we're yeah, so Tim is just like seeing all these things, these memories are flooding back to him about like all this strange stuff that happened and like around this tragedy, like how all of it really was to where even like with talking with their dad while their mother is chained up and stuff, and it's just you know, those moments where you really see the influence over him, he goes, We need you to stay out of that room. And then they even ask, We, who's we? And he just like many questions that they ask, just ignores it and moves on. He's just like, I don't have an answer for that, so I'm just gonna pretend it never happened. And I think that it's just even the entity there just clearing his mind from whatever was just asked of him, is like, and moving on.

Yep. Not you know, it's like he honestly it's like he didn't even hear a word they said. It's like we're skipping over it because it I'm not gonna answer it anyway. So moving on to whatever comes next. And the kids start to figure shit out. They start to realize it. Kayleigh just starts churning through things and realizing oh, okay. This this isn't all right, this is this is messed up. I need to get someone so they actually go and get someone or she leaves and goes and gets someone to come and it's brushed away, like it's yeah.

Even seeing her mom when she finally decides to go just break that rule and go check on her, and she's chained up and bloody almost like feral. Yeah, it's like she needs help, and then it's it's supernatural gaslighting.

Yeah, basically.

You know, the father's like, you just leave it alone, it's fine. And then they're trying to call the doctor on their own, and it's the influence of that using just the same voice. Just have your father call, have your father call. Just anything to just take them off the trail of it. Just don't worry about it. It's you know, the mirror, this lasser glass, whatever. It's created a bubble of confusion and fear and torment in the house that they cannot escape from.

Yeah. And the radius, I think, is a little bit bigger, but at one point, adult Tim is able to go outside and actually does call for someone to come.

Yeah. But then even he's not sure that he did. It's it gets to him, and I I love that about it, is then things so get so intense at that point, because you're like, even as a viewer watching the movie, I'm like, I'm off balance with the characters, I'm constantly questioning what's real. You know, at that point, because like, did she really kill Michael? Because it seems yes, but then there's also things that led to no, but then she can't even keep them straight in her head. And then when they go outside for help, and then we don't know if he called or not, because then even the like doctor's voice is on the phone telling them no, this isn't real. And so they're even like, we can't trust things that we both can see and hear, because it's equally bother like messing with both of us at the same time, to where anything that feels like it's proving that it's one way or the other could also just be a lie. So now nothing is nothing makes sense.

How do you exist in that situation without going crazy?

Yeah. Which is like the whole part of the pl plan, because like, oh, we gotta stick together, and it's like I don't think that really helps you. Because you're both equally susceptible to this thing. So now there's just two of you who are capable of m being made to do anything, and it's even worse. It's it's just yeah.

And the longer they're there around it, the worse it gets. And I mean, she knew that because she knows what happened with her father.

Yeah.

But she still, even with all of her contingency plans, I don't think she was prepared for everything that that mirror was gonna do.

Yeah, even look the little things, uh just to fuck with them. Uh the you know, ooh, classic apple light sw light bulb uh switcheroo.

Ooh.

Which I was like, man, that has to suck. But then even that was like a double switch fake out. Towards then it really was the apple, but then it made her think just so when Tim walks into the room, she looks more unstable. Just continuing to just pull the rug out from under them piece by piece and make them not trust each other, not trust what's going on, not trust themselves.

And that sounds exactly like what it did the first time around and has done over the last 400 years, creating chaos and disarray. It sounds like something else.

Those little pop-up lanterns that she had were really cool and useful. I like them.

Yeah. I mean, she she was ready, she thought she was. It just was way more powerful than she thought. I mean, they were able to crack it back in the day. It did have a crack in it, but you had to know that it wasn't it wasn't gonna be that simple.

Yeah.

No. Yeah, and you mentioned, yeah, even as kids, like they put together the fact like, oh, the mirror is the cause. Even if they don't understand how or what exactly.

Right.

But they're like, it's gotta be. And then you know, it's defending itself, so it's controlling both of their parents. We get the image of Marisol, which man, every time I think about it, it's like, God, Kate Siegel, I've never seen her as crazy. No, so good. Never she was so good, and that was early on with collaboration with Flanagan, so yeah, and then yeah, with her, but then even some of the others start to show up is it's using previous victims as conmates, uh, where Tim as an adult is seeing his father, and then even Kaylee seeing Michael when she comes in. So then it's like, well, I guess that's kind of proof that yeah, she really did kill him. But then, yeah, they keep switching between kid and adult. Even there's some shots where there's one of them as an adult and one of them is a kid in the same scene, and it's just like they're running all around. It's like it's so like I said, not only like what's real, but what's when.

What's when? And who's who's who when? Who's what?

Where, when, how, why did.

Well, imagine like Flanagan writing this and going back and forth between the two time frames when he's doing it. I guess that he wrote the flashback pieces in italics, like that's how he kept them different. Uh-huh. I mean, I'd need it to be neon in order to differentiate it.

Yeah. But I don't think that's like a complaint as far as you're I was confused at what was I think that was the point.

I think the point was, yes.

It wants to keep you off of like off balance as well, and be like you're in the headspace of the characters, of like, where are they, when are they, what's happening, what's real. And I think it did a great job with that.

And then it will circle right back around to at the end. You get everything dished up at the end of the movie, and you have to sit with it knowing that the ending was incredibly sad.

Yeah, um, fucking devastating was my exact wording on that ending. Uh and again, Tim being really the victim. He's the victim of the mirror that gets to live.

Yeah.

But it but even though he's alive, it has still taken his entire life from him.

Mm-hmm. His family is gone. When the police car is pulling away, he sees Kaylee with his parents in the window as ghosts, basically.

Which I love the effects, the mirror eyes on the ghosts is is such a cool and unsettling effect. Which the ghosts themselves, like when they all kind of are standing around in the background or like looming over things or grouping up together. That's where I was like, yeah, the ghosts are very flanagan. He continues with those kind of motifs constantly. Just like that's his that's his bread and butter. There's yeah. Ominous ghosts that just flagrantly stand right there in front of you and go, look, what are you gonna do about it? Like that it's it's so flanagan and it's incredible.

He's homed it though over time, and it's gotten even better. Like it just continues to get better and better. But there was a point that reminded me a little bit of last night at Soho when the ghosts were all together, like around. I'm like, oh, that's very last night in Soho before last night in Soho.

Yeah. Yes, I mean Tim definitely tragic character and victim. But I think even Kaylee, as much as she really lost herself to the obsession of it, when we get that reveal of what actually happened with their father, that it was less Tim killing his father and more Alan having this brief moment of clarity and taking that and using the fact that Tim was holding the gun on him and letting you know and pulling his son's finger back into that trigger as a way to protect his kids. And so Tim has suppressed that and doesn't remember that exactly as how it went, but Kaylee has. And she's held that memory, which is why proving that he wasn't evil himself and that he really wasn't the one to blame was so important to her. Because she has that memory of her their father sacrificing himself so that they could live on. And now all these years later, being the daughter of the crazy guy who tried to kill his whole family and then was killed by you know, it's it doesn't sit right with her, and she's like, This has to be made right. I have to prove that things were the way that they were and set it right.

But all in the end that it did is sentence her brother to a terrible life.

Mm-hmm.

And to pay for something that he didn't know he was doing, basically. But the cops all saw it on the video that they were able to see it, and how much of that was well, here's the actual video, and how much of it was the brain being fucked with too. Like, cause his brain was all scrambled up.

Yeah.

He didn't even know she was there.

Yeah.

Because the mirror had just been changing memories as they happen. So it in that moment the memory and the mirror is like, no, she's not in the room right now. You're all alone. Go ahead.

Yeah.

Destroy them.

Yeah.

He thought he was doing the right thing, and it ended up going terribly, terribly wrong. Unfortunately.

Yeah. Which, you know, uh, not a happy ending at all.

Not at all. It was I remember that it ended in a sad way, but I didn't remember exactly how it ended. And then that was it. And I just was like, yeah, I think this is why I didn't like it. Because I remember I don't think I liked this movie the first time I saw it. And I think my problem was the way that it ended. And it wasn't that it was a bad ending as far as the writing or the story or anything. It was just, it was such a downer that I was like mad.

Yeah. Which Flanagan, he's not always he's not one to always put a pretty bow on everything.

He does not. He does not. I mean, it's a challenge sometimes. He he will he will rip your heart out Midnight Mass episode four.

I I just finished re-watching Midnight Mass recently, as you I know you did too. And again, the ending of that, I'm not gonna give anything away, but if there's anybody listening who hasn't watched Midnight Mass, just do that right now, please.

Uh very good. It's worth it.

That ending, you're like, it's not happy, but also it's somehow one of the most beautiful things at the same time. Like it's just yeah, he's got away with that for sure.

He does. He knows how to tell a story. And he knows how to rip your heart out of your body. He just does. He knows what to do.

Yes.

He he does it. It's crazy. But it's true.

Mm-hmm. Well, I think that's about it for me.

I think I've kind of Yeah, I'm looking through. My big points I always put in all caps now so that I don't miss them. And I think we have covered. I think we've covered just about everything. I always appreciate a movie more after we've talked about it. Because you usually point out things that I either missed or we just talk through something that may not have settled with me very well, and then I end up understanding it better. I think that's one of the coolest things about podcasting is you can go into a movie one and watch it and feel one way when it's done. But once you do the prep and you have an actual conversation from a podcasting standpoint, from a different lens, you can understand it and feel differently about it in a better way than what it was before.

Yeah. I think there was one thing that I forgot to say, because it's not in my notes, but I had a thought and then we continued conversation and then it just vanished. But I remembered what it was now. Um there's kind of a bookend, kind of foreshadowing within this movie. The way that it opens is Tim having this recurring dream of that night, but this time it's different, where he's the one holding the gun to his sister's head instead of his father, and he pulls the trigger instead of having it pulled away. And it's, you know, his doctor is like, well, it just shows the grief that you know you you blame yourself for everything that happened. When really it's kind of a foreshadowing of like, no, she does die at his hand by the end of the movie. Which is like, man, that's wild.

Yeah. I mean Flanagan doesn't put things in his movies that go nowhere. There's always a payoff at some point. And so even with the kill switch, you knew that was gonna come back at some point. So I think we did it.

We did it, indeed. And there goes the feedback phone. Perfect. Uh so hopefully we got some people with some thoughts on this one. I'd love to hear from people. So I'll go check it out. All right. All right, we do have a couple of pieces of feedback for this week, which I'm excited to get into. So why don't we do that? Get right into them. So, Daphne, why don't you go ahead and take a look at the first one?

So, Catherine says, I love Oculus so much that I watched it twice this weekend. It's my favorite Flanagan movie, followed shortly by Doctor Sleep. I think mine are flipped. And I think Hush, too, like is over this one. But Dr. Sleep is my favorite. Um, the body horror of tearing off fingernails and biting into light bulbs always makes me turn away. That horrible alarm was also my childhood alarm, and every time I hear it, it still makes my heart rate skyrocket. Now I wake up to the DuckTales theme song much more relaxing. Jumping back and forth in time kept the tension high, and it made the ending so devastating. I haven't seen the short Oculus film Flanagan made in 2006, but I wonder how it compares. What? Short Oculus film 2006.

So there was like a either, and I don't know because I haven't seen it or them, it's either a short or there's like there are multiple like little shorts that are like in parts or something that he did. I saw something, because some of the people who are cast in this under their credits, like their earlier stuff, like also had like Oculus part something that was like a I was like, I don't know what that is, but so that must be that.

I feel like we need to check that out. That that's gotta be done. So we'll we'll look into it. Thank you, Catherine, for letting us know that it exists, because I had no idea.

Yeah. Uh and then we have one from Tony as well, who says, I don't remember much except that I liked it. I do know that the mirror is a little Easter egg in Midnight Mass on the stage during the AA meeting with Riley and Father Paul, which dang, I just finished a rewatch of Midnight Mass recently. I wish I would have known that to look for it. I guess I just have to watch it again. Oh no.

We did talk about it a little bit in the discussion about some of the Easter eggs, but we didn't go into actually that's where the mirror is in Midnight Mass. So I'm gonna have to go back and take a look at that. Well, you can leave us feedback a number of ways. We have a channel on the Podcastica Discord server. You can submit feedback via Facebook and Instagram at RunFear Lives Podcast, or you can email us at RunFoo Your Lives Podcast at gmail.com. If you're enjoying the show, tell your friends we are available on all podcast players, including Apple, Spotify, YouTube, and more. As always, you can go to RunFoyourLivespodcast.com for all the links that you're ever gonna need. And give us a review on Apple Podcasts, as that is the best way to share the love and get us out there even more. We really appreciate it.

We absolutely do indeed. And of course, speaking of sharing the love, uh you know, I gotta give those shout outs to the things going on in the podcastica universe around us and beyond. So much stuff for you to check out this week while you're waiting on the next Run for Your Lives episode. Like, of course, if you are a Walking Dead fan and watching Dead City, then you could check out the Walking Dead cast with their coverage of uh season three of Dead City over there, Ben and Alex doing that, episode seven this week. So you can check that out if you haven't already. Or if you're just looking for the next episode, it's there. Go check it out, go listen. Still Slaying is back this week, Penny, Cara, and Dina talking about Buffy, season five, episode six this week. So they're back on the Buffy. The Buffy stuff. No, I don't like that. They're back on Buffy, so you go check that out over there as well. And then Casting Light, the newest Podcastica podcast, on the HBO show Lanterns, uh, the DC show there, uh, which I'm caught up on and been watching, and honestly, it's really great. And I'm not a huge DC person, but I do like the newer stuff they've been doing lately. Haven't seen everything but like what I have. Uh I like the trajectory of DC right now. And uh lanterns has been really good. So yeah, if you wanna if you're watching that or want to check that out and need a podcast companion there, then Jason Kirk and Jim have been covering that over on Casting Light, so give that a listen as well. And then on the outside, if you want TV Podcast Industries, they're also covering lanterns, so there's some extra coverage of that too, our friends over there, so go give them some love. They do a lot of the comic bookie stuff there. And also comic booky stuff, if you're a fan of that, then uh our good friends on the Pirate Core Entertainment Podcast Network have Panels to Pixels, and they uh just did a wrap-up uh of the first, and the news has now broken, unfortunately, only season of Spider Noir, uh, which is sad news, but if you did watch that or want to check that out and get through that, then you have the uh coverage on Panels to Pixels of all that, so they're wrapping up that season series. It is what it is over there. Uh I thought it was really fun, so um, yeah, I don't know. But you want to relive it, want to rewatch it, want to check it out, go definitely listen to Panels to Pixels for that coverage. And then uh other than that, if you want more of me and Daphne during this week while you're waiting on the next episode, then you can also get more of us on our other podcast, the Buffalo Buffalo Podcast, with our friends Jeff and Jerry, where we're uh we're not covering TV shows, not covering movies, we're just hanging out. You know, something we never do on this podcast is just hang out and chat.

Uh, but you know, it's funny you bring that up, Pake, because this is where you usually say to me or mention that I'm gonna tell everyone what we're up to on our next episode. And funny enough, it's a hangout episode.

We What?

Yeah, we are chatting and talking about a number of things. We are talking about what we're up to right now, what we did last summer, and I know what we did last summer. Are you sure that you buried that body deep enough?

I hope.

Yeah. We also answer listener questions, so we got some great questions in, and it was a lot of fun. Some of them made us think a little too hard because yeah. We don't want to to think that hard.

Some of them got really deep. We got we got emotional and vulnerable. Uh some things came out that were shocking discoveries and horrific.

Yeah, you were horrified when I revealed a secret.

Yeah, there is a confession of some horrible wrongdoing that one of us might have confessed to.

And uh It's not wrongdoing. It's just a fact of life. It's just a fact of the situation, and I was a bit surprised at the way you took it. Although, you know what? No, I wasn't, because I know you. And I knew as soon as I mentioned it, you were going to take offense and decide that it was getting rectified.

Yes, and it will be.

Yep. Justice talked about it.

Justice will be served with a dollop of guacamole.

You keep saying that. Um, we've talked about it on Buffalo even not while we recorded Buffalo, but before or after when we were doing Buffalo this week. Peg decided to tell Jeff and Jerry about the situation, and they talked it out. Is it really in?

Yeah. But you'll have to tune in next week to figure out what we're talking about.

Yeah.

I can't wait for your for your comments after you listen to it, because I really want to know what you guys think. Because this is the first time we had a lot of listener questions. And so, yeah, it was a lot of fun to answer them and just to catch up and share a bit of that with you because it it really is kind of like what we do before and after we record. It's conversation and fun, and then we record, and then we'll talk some more. And yeah, it it's always fun to bring these episodes to life. And we needed it because it was a busy week. So it was a ton of fun. And with that, we've reached the end of another terrifying episode of Run to your Lives. I don't think the episode is terrifying, I think the movie is terrifying. So I'm gonna have to update the the way I say that. However, we've reached the end of another episode. I had fun, Peike had fun. It it's been great. Thanks everyone for listening. I'm Daphne.

And I'm Pake.

And if you have to run, you better run for your lives.

Bye-bye.