RFYL 269: The Whisper Man

You are listening to the Run for your life podcast.

Hey everyone, welcome to the show. I'm Daphne.

And I'm Pake.

And this is the Run for Your Lives Podcast.

This episode we are talking about the brand spanking new, just in the past couple of weeks, uh thriller film The Whisper Man, directed by James Ashcroft and released on Netflix August 28th, 2026. So very new as we're recording this, and then also it's a few more weeks even after we record. But so it's not the newest of new, but it's still really dang new. And also, it's not a supernatural horror film, which feels like that's all we've been doing for a little bit, which no complaints, because that's my favorite kind of that's my like favorite horror subgenre, so that's why I feel like we can do that a lot. Although, I don't know, there's this isn't a supernatural movie, but there's this one little thing. There's like one little thing. Uh can't get away with uh get away from it completely, but like it's mostly inconsequential to the movie. Uh it's it's kind of we'll we'll talk about this. I know we were talking before without we don't discuss too much of the movie before, but a little bit. I would say this one's kind of Silence of the Lambs meets black phone.

Yes, I would say that. Um also it reminds me of a movie I watched called Prisoners that had to do with kidnapping. Um but I I didn't even Blackphone didn't even occur to me. Because I was honed in on, oh, this is like prisoners, I can tell it's it's like that because it's got all these other components that remind me of it, but it definitely black foamed.

The man squatting in a house and kidnapping just young boys doesn't make black foam connect at all, didn't it?

No, it didn't. Um I mean you could honestly say a little bit of weapons, too, if you think about how the kids came out of the house on their own accord. Although they didn't come out on their own accord, but it appeared like they did in Weapons. Weapons is top of mind right now because Zach Kregger has a new movie coming out as we're recording this, the new Resident Evil movie.

Tonight is opening night as we record. Yeah. Yeah. I actually was invited to go see Resident Evil tonight, and I had to tell them no because Daphne was forcing me to record this podcast tonight. She said, You cannot do anything else. You will log in at 8 p.m. sharp or you're fired. No, I'm kidding.

Uh when he was telling me this, I said, Pegue, you absolutely could have said, I'm gonna go, is it I can go see Resident Evil right now? Can we record later? I absolutely would have said, Okay, great, go and see it, and we'll just record after, but you weren't prepped to record.

No, I was I was when they texted me, it was like 40 minutes before the movie started, and I was still had like an hour left of this movie, which meant more like an hour and a half to two hours because I pause and take notes and stuff. So wouldn't have worked. And I didn't, I'm not gonna try to finish that prep and then record after I get home from a movie because then we'll be recording at like 3 a.m. and I'm not doing that either.

Yeah, no.

I think we have done something like that. I think we started one night at like 12 30 and went until about 3. Like we we we have done that before. My brain usually shuts off by 2 p 2 a.m. But I mean it depends. Um I'm excited for the new Resident Evil, I'm excited for the the different view. I doubt we're gonna be able to cover it this season because I doubt it's gonna come to streaming in time for us to do that, but it will definitely be something that we look at for season 12.

I think so. Yeah.

Yeah. Um, it's really interesting though, James Ashcroft. It I didn't realize this till I was looking behind the scenes a little bit before we started recording. And today, as of the recording date, I found out that they're making a Black Sheep 2. It's in production. I looked a little bit into it. It's like, oh, this is kind of neat. Um, James Ashcroft was actually in it in the original Black Sheep in 2006. And um, I don't know exactly who he played. I'd have to go and like probably and re-watch it maybe to see, which is uh such a bad thing because that movie you can't ever watch it again. It's it's so it's a one and done. No, it isn't. I love that movie. It's one of my favorite episodes we've ever done. Um so yeah, it's all connected somehow. But this movie is more of like a thriller drama movie versus like a horror straight up horror movie. It's more of a psychological thriller. But it did have components that connect to what we do. Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, because we we've done some of those, and we we should do more of them kind of like that, because it's definitely the intensity is there. And especially there's always kind of like a third act that gets just kind of crazy, and there's this stuff, but like uh, you know, I mentioned Silence of the Lambs. We haven't covered that one yet, but like I feel like we totally could. But like Black Phone we have covered. It's a lot of black phone is somebody's missing. We're working with the police and the family and trying to figure out what's going on. We we did Long Legs, which is also very much in this vein of like Yeah, there's a few movies.

Prisoners is one, uh Along Came a Spider is another one that I think we could do. Kiss the Girls is one that fits really well, that I think we'd have a lot of fun with because it's got some of those twists and things in it that you're not quite expecting. So yeah, I think we could do more of that. Although I will say this. Tony, I know you're out there listening. We will do a vampire movie this season. I think I know which one I want us to do. And maybe we'll do it as early as next week.

Who knows?

We'll see. But I have one for us to do. Cool. Well, with that introduction, let's do a few production notes. Was filmed in Plainfield, Westfield, and Newark, New Jersey, and London, England. It was based on the novel The Whisperman by Alex North, and there are some differences between the two, and I've jotted some down. The budget was fifty million. There is no box office info because it was released on Netflix here in the US. It's 114 minutes long. Pake, give us a synopsis.

Yes. When his eight-year-old son is abducted, a widowed crime rider looks to his estranged father, a retired former police detective, for help, only to discover a connection with the decades-old case of a convicted serial killer known as the Whisperman.

Ugh man. We've gone from the Wickerman to the Whisperman.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, the Whisperman is super creepy. It reminds me of a a book I read called The Straw Men. It was real dark. And it had like a kidnapping arc too. It's like it was Yeah, it was it was real real hard to get through. So Yeah.

Yeah, it's definitely a a topic that is is can be rough. So I will say, you know, just possible, yeah, like content warnings, trigger warnings to talk about some of this stuff. Because it's it's yeah, you know, child death and abuse and endangerment and murder and all of those things. Like it can be very uh sensitive to some people, including myself, uh I'll talk about some of the stuff, but like, you know, I again I don't do trailers or look into stuff too much, so I went into this mostly blind. Like I kind of knew, like, I didn't know any specifics. All I knew was Adam Scott, and it's like a serial killer type movie. That's really all I knew. Um, but that was good enough for me. Uh I was like, well, then we're in, we gotta do it.

Well, I mean, we do like to cover any movie Adam Scott is in that even loosely connects to this. It definitely wasn't the movie that we did where he had a demon child.

Mm-mm. No.

No, it was not like that.

His son was much more angelic in this. Yes. Uh yeah.

I feel like though a lot of those movies have some deep dark thing like grief or or trauma.

Yeah, I mean we did Hokum earlier. Always with him. And yeah. It's but yeah, so I went in pretty blind, so I was like, I didn't know exactly what it was. So when the movie starts off, and I was like, oh, we're starting off with child abduction. Oof. Okay.

Yep.

Here we go. Uh but but no, I I really love this movie. It's maybe a one and dunner as far as I don't know if I can put myself through it again. We'll get into specifics and stuff, but so it's like Gerald's game.

Yeah.

Is what you're telling me.

For different reasons, but yeah. Uh but yeah, it was interesting. Like, I'm immediately like tied in because like, you know, they're looking for this kid, Neil Spencer, who was taken the night before, and then they're like, we found a you know, sent found something, found a body, and then immediately you look at it, I was like, Well, that's not the body of a kid that was taken the night before.

Uh no, it's not gonna decompose that fast.

So it's like, yeah, this like one search and investigation's becoming something bigger, and then yeah, immediately we they they don't take too much time. They don't waste time to like, okay, here's the situation of this like decades-old case. Now we're gonna like drudge it back up, and it's following the same patterns and the same methods. But like three minutes in, literally three minutes, I was like, oh, this movie's gonna rip my heart out and stomp on it, isn't it? Um because we're just we're in the car and we've got Adam Scott's character, Tom, moving back to his hometown with his young son Jake, and they're talking about you know, his wife, Jake's mother, who had passed away from an illness, and I'm like, great, this movie's just knows exactly where to pick at me. Got it. Tears are gonna happen.

They are. They are, and Jake was, I think, supposed to be 10 in this movie. Like he's he's in that age range, I think that probably also hit home for you.

Yeah, definitely. Cause uh, I've got that note in here somewhere. So but it's like since you brought it up, it's like, well, I wait to get to it. So I'll jump ahead to that note. Just because, you know, as they're like, you know, well, it this, you know, the Whisper Man back then and even now, it's like finds these like victims and finds these targets by like the kids that are lonely, the kids that don't have like that feel like they want to leave anyway, was kind of the way that he said, or having like a really hard time emotionally and like don't have some like support. And I was just like, I want to know. Actually, I absolutely don't want to know. But it's like, what kind of recon is this guy doing to find his victims? Because it seems like a short period of time to get that perfect storm of trauma and sadness in a kid, and then I was like, God, I hate that. Like, whatever really fucked up thing that is in this guy's head, both father and son, you know, spoil uh spoiler if you haven't watched this. Um, to, you know, and that gets under my skin. It really definitely like I'm my skin's crawling, and I'm finding myself getting upset at just the idea of this like fictional thing. Because I was like, I've talked about it on here, it's just like it's the absolute most like evil, twisted, opposite version of what I do and I love doing, uh, because I I mentor kids of this age range, this like elementary kids, and then what I'm able to do is like in working with the counselor and stuff at the school, is being able to you know see the kids that are in these kind of head spaces and home lives and and dealing with the same kind of like traumas and stuff like that. But then you find those kids that are in these places, and then I give them a positive sounding board and help them through that in the most like supportive ways and conversations and stuff that I can. And so to see it so subverted and perverted and bastardized, it literally was making me sick. Like once you're realizing what the like actions and like planning and stuff is and what this guy's doing, and it's just like it was it's it gets a little personal because I was like, man, he is preying on the exact same kids that I am seeking out to help. And it's uh it's devastating for me.

It is, and I wondered how you would react to it knowing your role in helping kids, helping kids process through trauma, helping kids have that person to go to to have a safe space, and you're creating that, knowing that in this movie it is someone manipulating and using that connection for evil.

Just like the most evil of evil, and yeah, so it was definitely close to home in a in a regard to me, and I was just like, I I can't imagine. And then, of course, then seeing, and that's just like from like a mentor prospect, you know, or like you know, perspective, and being there, and then you're watching the character of Tom, Adam Scott's character here, and it's like what even is he going through as a parent, and like I I can't even imagine to be like what it would be like to be on that side, especially so I'm jumping ahead because I have notes, and so I'm like, you know what, let's get the really heavy ones out of the way. Of like when the tape is sent in and you get there's that little sa scene of Tom listening to it. We don't get to hear it, we don't hear what Jake said on this in this conversation on these recordings. A little bit, you know, why didn't he believe me or whatever we saw from that perspective in that scene, but like the whole tape, we don't know what it was in. But we we hear you we see that he had listened to it. And I was like, I can't imagine like the pain and the fear and the suffering, honestly, of listening to that, you know, being the father of like the kid in that audio. Like this is probably the last things he ever says, and then and so then it made me think, I was like, I don't want to spend too much time on it, but I was like, man, parents in these situations, especially the times they they don't end well. Like, how do you cope? How do you go on like function in a world that something like this can and did happen? And because the closest I've ever been to it, I don't think I've ever talked about it on here, I don't know if I've even ever talked about to you at all, uh, is you know, mentioning again the the school that I work at. Uh so no names, no details. I'm gonna keep it as vague, but you know, I mentioned the mentorship that I do at the school. Years ago, uh the the school that I I work with and do stuff with, there was a kid uh at that school that was in the class of the kids that I was working with at that time that went missing over a weekend. And there was a search for a few days, several days, and then eventually a body was found, and it was not good what that kid suffered through and what was done to them. And just the shock and the pain that I felt for a kid that I didn't even know, but was just in the vicinity of kids that I did, like that was hard enough on me. And so I was just like I would never even want to try to imagine being as the closest possible to a and tragedy's not even the right word, because it's just it's pure evil actions of another person that leads to that.

Yeah, it's senseless violence towards the most innocent.

So it's like I remember the human race how deeply I was affected by it being a kid that I had never even interacted with, but the kids that I was interacting with knew them. And like, so I was just like to be the parent of that kid, like I can't even begin to fathom what that is like. If the pain that I felt from somebody I'd never even met personally.

There's a lot of evil in the world, Pig. I wish we spent more time fighting it than and getting rid of it instead of fighting over trivial things that don't really matter. We should be eliminating the possibility that this could happen to another child. We need to protect children. We do. We're the adults, they can't protect themselves. They are the innocent, they need people to stand up for them. And I feel like it's not always the case, and that's so disappointing and so upsetting. And no, you had never told me about that. Yeah.

Because I think that was before we had even met. Yeah. I've been doing the mentorship thing for a while, about 10 years now.

Yeah.

Um but but yeah, that was maybe the second year that I was doing it, second or third year.

That's just heartbreaking. I'm so sorry because I can't like you, I can't imagine what it's like for a parent to go through that. And know that you know what happened to their child and have it be such a wretched, rotten, evil thing. And have to sit with that. Like, how do you cope? You don't ever get over it. I think I may have mentioned on this podcast one time when we were talking about losing a parent or losing family member and how people want to make you feel better, and they'll tell you things like, Oh, I understand, and and I always am like, you can sympathize with Mitt, but you don't understand unless you've lost a parent. Then you really understand like what it feels like. I couldn't begin to know what it feels like for a parent to lose a child, but I definitely would sympathize with them and want to support them if something like that. And it's just unfathomable to me that we can still allow this to go on and and it continues to happen. And I'm not gonna go further down the road, but I think anyone who's listening to this episode knows exactly what I'm talking about when I say people have gotten away with things that they should not have gotten away with, and we have the opportunity to do something about it, but no one who has that power is doing anything about it.

Exactly.

Thank you for coming to my TED Talk.

Yeah, and it's yeah, I mean, definitely those things, but even yeah, these these kind of cases where it's like why you know, you it's such a level of evil that you're like, you know it exists, you know it happens, but you just like can't imagine it happening in your circle where you're at to people you know. And you can't it's until it does, and it's yeah, it's it's crazy. But anyway, yeah, so I was like not expecting this movie to hit as close to home and be as like uh affect me as much as it did, but I was just like, there were parts. I was like, I need a moment to pause this and just like tear up for a minute and like let this wash over me for a minute before I keep going, because it's a lot.

And yeah, I stopped it a couple of times because I I was taking notes and I just didn't know how to even capture what I was feeling at the moment in words. Like it's just not possible. The whole thing is terrifying. And I I have nieces that are in his age range, and so I I don't even want to think about it. Like I don't even want to think about something happening to my nieces or or any kid. Like, no. But I kind of want to read the book now, even though I know what the differences are. I kind of want to read the book and yeah, I'm curious. Yeah. So I won't give too much away. I do have some of the differences, but I will be vague about some of it to make sure that it doesn't give anything away to our audience. Or you.

Yeah, because I might I might end up reading it, add it to the 70 books that I still have on backlog to read. Uh but yeah, so so getting into this, uh back you know, to the movie is just a Really heavy stuff. But we see when they move into this house, uh, because we get like the the kind of looks more like a woman, but then like you in the doorway, but then of course when Jake gets upstairs to the bedroom and we have the little girl in the closet. And of course, early in the movie, because I'm just like, okay, what's going on here? It's just like, is that real? Is what's happening? Is it and then I this is literally what, like, fourth note in my entire thing. So it is kind of funny that I called it, but not officially, where I said, Is Jake imagining his mother is there with him in some way?

Um Yeah, I was trying to. And then I kind of let go of that for a while. Yeah.

Uh but I did make that like thought very early on, the first time when she's there in the closet when the house is just being moved in that first day. Uh but, you know, and then it's just like, or you know, is it just this like imaginary friend situation? Which is kind of both. It was like imaginary friend, they talked about that, it's been happening. But it really, you know, you could read into it and take it as like kind of this angel spirit, whatever version of his mother that was in whether that was actually a supernatural thing that was happening, or if that was just because of his imagination, there is a version of that that they can show on screen to tell us that like he has that within him and with him. You could, you know, apply it to either one, you can kind of take either explanation, and I think they could both be valid, but Yeah. But at the end, because it's like she kind of seems to know, it's like Chekhov's rotten floorboards.

Uh I knew that. Did you know it too? Like when you went upstairs, you're like, this is gonna come into play later. That was one of those things. Another note.

I will jump all the way to the end of my notes to read off word for word what I wrote down. I said, Jake, run outside, not up the stairs to the attic. And they said, but that's where the girl in the blue sweater is leading you. And because we've got to send the whisper man down Chekhov's rotten floorboards. And then after that I said, and I am typing this before that has happened. Jake just walked in or ran into the attic, but I'm making that call. It's been foreshadowed a few times. I know it's gonna happen. And then after it did, I just typed, yep.

Yep. I knew it. As soon as he was running up the stairs, I knew. I knew it. I'm like, okay, bye-bye, buddy. You're going down. You're going down. And I was really glad to see that.

But it you know, but that does tie into and we don't really get a full answer on whether Jake was targeted because he is the grandson of Peter Willis or not. We don't really know. It's not confirmed one way or the other. Or if it was just kind of coincidental, because he also fits that mold for what Francis Jr. is looking for now, the same way that his father did. Is I mean, we know that like, even because with this, you know, blue in the girl sweater and then the thing is blue in the girl sweater, yes. Girl in the blue sweater and things that are going on. Like, Jake has a very active imagination, and there it's even stated that you know, Willis even says, like, that's the people that he preys on, or these kids that have these very active imaginations, and he can use that to his uh favor there.

Yeah. I didn't have any doubt that Peter Willis was gonna get involved in this case. Like, I believe that he would.

Yeah, even before the twist where we find out who he is, because I was like, well, because it's Robert De Nier, and you don't cast him in the movie to go, nah, I'm not gonna do it.

Yeah, exactly. You know he's gonna do it. You know he's gonna be in it.

You know he's gonna So then I'm like, what's the catalyst that actually brings him into the fold? And I thought it was incredibly well done. I was like, oh shit, that's it was maybe the most perfectly executed reveal that was delivered with the like absolute nonchalance. And I mean that in a good way. Like in this world, Tom doesn't know that Beck had talked to Peter about this already. And so the fact that he was just like, oh yeah, you know, my dad lives here in town, is yeah, he's this retired detective, Peter Willis, and just throws that away. Within our heads, we're going, oh my god. You know, like we're freaking out. But it means it's nothing in that moment to him.

But I was like It was clever. It was very clever.

It's very well and I was like, okay, so Jake Kennedy, the newest victim of this second coming of the Whisperman, is the grandson of the detective that caught and put away the original. And so you're like, Yeah, that's poetry. And dark, dark poetry, but like, yeah.

Because you spend the whole movie wondering why he was targeted, and then we really don't ever find out, other than he did have that situation at school where the kid was trying to take his satchel and he scratched him. And honestly, I'm with Tom on this one. Bullying is not okay in any form. And he was targeted. You cannot expect kids to just sit by and take being treated like shit. It is not okay.

I said literally type, hell yeah, Tom. Uh, because yeah, stand up for your kid. Because yeah, Jake shouldn't hurt the other boy. Sure. Yes, like you you you find those ways to like deal, but also writing an apology to this other kid that was picking on him and messing with his very meaningful personal property.

Exactly, no.

Who is seemingly not being punished at all? It's like, no, that's also not right. And I love that Tom stands up for his kid against the bullying. Where and I love, I laughed out loud, like some of those lines where he's looking at this like teacher or principal or whatever, and was just like, wait, so my kid's the only one being punished? He's like, because that kid sounds kind of like a dick. And she was like, excuse me? And he was just like, Yeah, we're gonna pass on that note. And then I love as he's walking away, he goes, You can put me on yellow if you want. And I just like, oh God, I love it. I love it.

I love it.

It's so timely that we're doing this movie this week because earlier this week on my figure scanning podcast, we talked with an ice dancer who had gone through bullying in at in this age range. And because it's National Suicide Prevention Month, it all was like he came forward, he's a Canadian, and he came forward and was released a statement, and then we had him come on the podcast, and he was very, very open. We had to put a disclaimer at at the beginning saying listener discretion is advised because the subject matter includes suicidal thoughts and bullying. And so listening, I had just like Monday we recorded that episode. That's all fresh in my head still. Yeah. So seeing this, I'm just like, oh no. No, no, no, no, no. I I get that you have a zero tolerance policy, but that should be for the way that the this kid and his friends were treating Jake. Yeah. Yeah. It should go both ways.

Absolutely.

I have no patience for bullying. That's one of the things on my line list, which is if you cross this line, those are deal breakers. And that's one of the things.

And the sometimes it's like, you know, violence is not the answer, is kind of the underline kind of thing. But I know a lot of parents that are friends of mine and stuff that have younger kids that that live by the guideline of they're like, if somebody's picking on you at school and you try to do something about it the right way and it's not taken care of, and they continue, fucking lay them out. And you know what? You can get in trouble with the school, you're not going to be in trouble with me. And I'm like, you know what? That makes sense. At a point, you have to stand up for yourself.

You do. You know, I was brought up in a household where you turn the other cheek and you just kept the peace, and that was not great for a life lesson to help me later in life when I'm trying to advocate for myself for a promotion at work or whatever.

Yeah.

You just you just take it and you don't fight back. And I think it's really important for kids to learn when is the right time to fight back and how to go about it. And that you use your words first, but if they don't work and the adults in charge are not helping you, you have to protect yourself. And that's what Jake was doing. And the school had to have known that he had gone through this losing his mother. Like, they had to know.

I don't yeah, I don't again, you know, tying into like what I do with the school, is yeah, I mean, like the kids that I work with that are through, you know, I get kind of paired up with through the counseling department and like the counselor and stuff. And it's all but before I even meet them, I get the whole rundown of like, here's what home life is like, whether you know single parent, you know, both parents, if they're adopted, if they've had this trauma, if this has happened, if there's a death in the family. Like I get a pretty good lowdown on like here's what you're walking into when when helping with this kid. And so like the schools are aware of these kind of things for sure. They're made aware of those things for the kids' betterment to be able to make sure that they can be in, you know, in the right situations with the right people if they need to be.

Yeah, and I know I've said this to you before. I think the counselor at the school you work at is fantastic.

She's great.

At connecting you with the kids that you are able to really reach and help. Because it's not just is there someone to listen, it's having personalities that will mix, or a personality that will mix with the child. Like it's gotta be two-pronged. Does your past like does your personality match his? Does his personality match you, so that it can be productive?

Yeah. As we're recording this, I just got started this week. Uh yesterday.

I know. I'm so excited.

New new kid for for the next couple years, whatever, just like started fresh. And uh it was a great first day. It was great introduction, great conversation. I'm looking forward to this year. I think it's gonna be great.

I remember when we first started Run for Your Lives, it was pandemic time, and you had told me all of these stories about all of the different kids you had worked with prior to that, and then we got to the point where you could go back into the school and do it again.

Yeah.

And it's been like five I think you've been back like five years now. At least.

Maybe.

It doesn't seem like it's been that long, but it has.

I think it was the 20, 2022, 2023 school year that I started. Yeah.

Yeah. So it's it's been at least like four years. It's amazing. It and it kind of connects to some of the stuff that I do at work around trauma screening, and this movie just resonated because of some of the subject matter. It it just is why in real life we screen kids for trauma and things like this. Because this is how you find out when a kid is struggling and when they need to be connected to resources.

Random note, then I was just like, Adam Scott really likes to play authors, doesn't he? Because also Hokum we covered earlier in the season.

He does. He's got a type, I feel like, in movies. Although in Hokum he wasn't a parent. But he was a parent in Little Evil. In Little Evil.

Yeah. And I don't remember what his job was in that movie. Probably an author, who knows?

Uh so he was also a parent in The Monkey, and yeah, so there are connecting pieces here. But I'll always know him as the lovable Ben Parks and Rack.

He's also an author of the great plan known as uh Ice Town.

Yes. Yes, yes, he is. Um, there was something else. Oh, and he is delightful as a person with a brain cut in half on Severance.

Which again, also an author, because he wrote or no, it was it was his brother. No, it was his brother-in-law that was the author of the club. That was the author, yeah. He brought the book into the it's a whole story plot.

There's so much, there's so many connecting threads. We've already been on like five tangents already.

So he's not an author in that one, but he starts a uh, you know, any book club, basically.

Yes, he does.

But uh yeah. So, you know, off the tangents, let's get back to the really heavy sad stuff.

But um I think we were prolonging it. We were we were trying to push it away and out of our heads. We can't. We're gonna we're gonna continue down the road of tackling it.

So yeah, because we we get introduced to this idea of the the whisper man, which is this older case that has been solved, Frank Carter, uh, who is as is this movie again. If you watch this, you know, but you know, there's some people that listen to these first, so it's like warning, there's some fucked up stuff in this movie. Uh this guy, yeah, he's abducting young boys, and then he's like sitting there and making them draw pictures and like digging into their like personal traumas and getting them to like not but it's like like again, it's like this perversion of it, where it's not like what I do, where I'm like, okay, let's like find the things that you're like that are like traumas or like that are really like that you're struggling with, and then bring them to light. It's like he's taking them and like doubling down on like why your life is terrible because of them, and it's like, well, draw a picture about all the things that are making you sad and scared, and then focus on why you're sad and scared about it, and what's wrong with your family, and why you you know what the things that you're afraid of, and then focus on those and and hold on to those instead of letting them go and finding a positive and it's just exploiting it.

He is exploiting their fears and their trauma experience.

And putting them in the darkest headspace he can, and then recording these disturbing conversations between them, eventually, yeah, killing them and then leaving their bodies to be found with his kind of trademark of their shirts wrapped around their faces and stuff. And it's so then when they start seeing it happening again where they're looking for Neil Spencer and then they find the body of this other boy in that situation, and so they're like, okay, is it it's happening again, but then they're all now they're like, okay, is it a copycat? Uh, is there somebody that's connected to the original Frank Carter that is continuing the the actions of him? Um and Detective Beck is very familiar with this case enough, like she immediately realizes the similarities and goes right back and pulls all the evidence and is trying to figure out how do we use that case to figure out what's going on now. Because it, I mean, obviously it can't be the original Whisper Man, Frank Carter, because he is in prison for life thanks to Peter Willis, the detective who who put him up, which we get De Niro up in this thing. Which I think that's the first time we've had Robert De Niro on Run for Your Lives. I do believe so in a movie to talk about him. I think so. I know.

It seems you know, it makes me want to go back and see if there are any other movies that fit because it was great to see him in a movie that we could talk about. He always brings everything to a role, and I feel like he he had everything, he played it really well in his body language, in his face, and the way he conveyed every the emotion of the situation, because we're not told right away why he's estranged from his son, like we're not given all of the information. I feel like this movie did a good job of peppering things throughout. So while you're building the story in your head of this killer, you're also building the story of why relationships are the way they are in this movie, like why a father and son are estranged, why a father and son are moving back because the wife died. It was an illness, and then later on we find out that it was actually Jake who found her at the bottom of the stairs, and it's caused him to have this fear of stairs. Um it's just peppered and built upon in a very layered way, and I I liked that. Yeah, I like the way that was done. I didn't need to be punched in the face. I'm okay with ha getting a little bit each time. I'm patient.

Yeah. And so Peter Willis, obviously, he's like, Yeah, I solved this case decades ago, but I I'm done, I'm retired. Well, past, you know, retired. I'm not doing this again. Uh she's like, well, you had a theory about an accomplice, and he's like, Yeah, and that went nowhere, so we're not gonna worry about it. Uh, which I think honestly, yeah, probably wasn't anything. Um kind of had some accomplices here in some couple different ways, but at least then.

There were moments that I thought there was an accomplice, and then there were moments that I thought, oh no, it must be this person. They never found this person, so what is going on with this? But we haven't gotten there yet, so I'll I'll save that for when we get there. But I had these epiphanies throughout the whole movie, and I've learned to internalize them more because Chris hates it when I go to the movies and say, This is gonna happen next. He hates it. He does not want to know, and so I've been working on restraining myself, probably because um, well, you and Jeff and Jerry, you guys don't want me to say that to you. So I'm I feel like I'm just I'm around more people that don't like it. So I I think it's helped me restrain myself a bit.

Uh-huh. Yeah. Yeah, we we see as like, you know, everything, it's like somebody who it's it more than just a copycat, because then it almost feels like this is somebody who's very well acquainted with the methods of of this killer. Because, yeah, I mean even down to like the fingernails, as Willis mentions, is like that's something that was never put to the public.

Uh yeah.

But like all this, you know, the tape of the conversation that gets mailed to the news station, and then it's labeled with the kid's name, and then it's this pattern of like by the time you get the tape, then you know it won't be long before you find the body, and then there's another tape, and then another kid has gone missing, and all these things. So, you know, they give Neil's tape, and so they're like, well, well, he's still alive for now, but now we're on like a quickly ticking down clock.

Yeah, because there's like you said, there's that time frame of this happens, this happens, this happens, and they're used to that pattern, and it's very closely following the pattern that Frank set, you know, 30 years ago with all the killing that he did. I thought it was quite interesting that Frank Frank and Frank Jr. used music tapes to record.

Yeah, and then when the conversation ends, it just right back into wherever and they recorded over. Which honestly was unsettling as hell.

Yes.

Because when we're listening to Neil's tape with Detective Beck, and I was like, oh god, that shit is disturbing. I was like, I don't like that. Horrendous. No thank you. Hard pass.

No, moves right into it.

Um, yeah.

Yeah. Not not good. Really just unsettling. I feel like this movie did unsettling very well because it did it when it needed to. It did what it wasn't a constant thing. It was put in specific spots to pull you into that feeling at a time that it really wanted to make you feel worse than you already do.

And then it doesn't take long after that to where yeah, then the tapping at the window and the certain things start happening to Jake. And I was just like, this guy is very nimble. Uh evil, evil, evil, but nimble. It was like you climb up to this second story to get to Jake's window and get his attention, and then you're like running and disappearing so quickly after having your hand in the mail slot.

Like Okay, that hand in the mail slot did not look like a pr a human hand. That m that hand in the mail slot looked supernatural to me, like a monster. Is it a metaphor?

Because he was familiar with the Whisperman case, so like it could have been him assuming that that's what it was, and then he was right.

But Yeah.

Yeah, I don't know. Again, there's like things that aren't really fully confirmed, because it also could be that just like, yeah, Francis was there fucking with him and knew he'd get away with it. Um, I don't know.

One thing that I did love between Tom and Jake is the picture battles that they were doing.

Oh yeah.

That was so fun. I wondered if that might be something that you would uh use maybe with the kids as well.

Could be fun, yeah. Of course, now that like this where it would come from, then I'd be reminded of this movie every time. And they'd be like, okay, maybe not. Uh but but yeah, it was Yeah, I loved that we got some really great scenes and some great like their relationship with each other as like rough as like. Like things were with the passing of Jake's mom, and like things were hard, but they were doing really well until like you see that, like, and that's one of those things that like even if everything is really perfect and great, and like you've been supportive and loving, it's that one little moment where it's like he's tired of hearing him talk to this girl in the blue sweater, and like he just he's been drinking and he just kind of snaps on him and he's a little harsh on him. It's like, yeah, he's he's in a rough and stressful place, too. So it's like you give Tom some grace, but it's like you know, he's yelling at his son and then walks off, and then immediately me with like the connection that I have with kids, I'd be like, Okay, go calm that down for like five minutes, and then you better get your ass back up there and go sit down with him and work make that right and while and talk with him, please. Uh, but apparently that's not what happens, and the next time he wakes up, Jake is gone. And that's another thing that then has to sit heavy on him is like the last thing like thing I said to him was yelling at him about you need to grow up and stop playing pretend.

Well, he did step on a leg opaque.

And that that is justified. Yeah.

That is justified.

However, the apology and the follow-up is all it's necessary.

It should have been there, yeah.

And he didn't and also it just there have been things that have happened in the last few months that have made me just realize you don't life is really short and you don't know what could happen tomorrow, and so don't go to bed mad at someone. Talk it out, get it out because you may never get another chance.

Yeah.

And that's the thing that you know, every day, even when I get irritated, I'm just like, no, I can't go to bed mad. If I've made someone feel bad, I need to apologize because I don't want that. I don't want to live with that.

So we get kind of oh Beck's kind of hard on Tom. It was like, and he was he was drinking. There was alcohol on his breath when we came over there. And it's like, okay, parents drink alcohol sometimes. Like, don't paint him as like a villain or you know, neglectful parent because of that. Like, chill the fuck out a little bit. But he was like, Oh, it took him six hours to wake up to realize that Jake was gone. It's like at least he did. It's like there's still that like parent intuition of like he woke up in the middle of the night and was like, something's wrong.

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

And then acted on it, like, yeah. I felt like Beck was a little too hard on him sometimes. It's like he's doing his best. Chill.

Well, he did learn later, too. We when we get the full picture of why Peter Willis and his son are not connected, and it has to do with Peter's alcoholism and Tom's mother saying, Well, you can be around Tom, but not if you've been drinking, and they were estranged.

Yeah.

And so Tom and his father didn't connect until we learn later about Mr. Knight and realizing what that was. That's such a clever thing.

Wrecked me, by the way. That I think that was the one that just hit me the hardest. For whatever reason, it was just this like the conversation with him in the kitchen because it's like we've got a lead on this guy who was connected to this, and it's like this panic and fear. He was like, wait, he could have been taken by what? Like by this person who's this? And he's spiraling, and then it was just like, again, that like fear and panic there that I'm like, oh god, I can't even imagine. But then them turning that into that conversation about you know, where he realizes this imaginary friend from his memories that he had told Jake about was actually real memories, memories of his father that he has compartmentalized now from when he was little, and it's like, oh sometimes that scene managed to like one-two punch me from two very different angles. And I was like, oh God.

Sometimes you do that as a kid, you remember things clearly one way, or you change it in your head without even realizing that that's what you're doing, and then you find out later, someone will tell you, that's not how that happened at all. This is what happened, but in your head, you've told that story to yourself so many times that what you believe is the story that you've told yourself. And so I think the beginning of reconciliation really starts when one Peter starts like all in on trying to figure out who took his grandson, and then these little moments like this, where Tom realizes that Peter was Mr. Knight. And also when his dad is trying to talk to him about the alcohol is not gonna solve anything, yeah. He's talking from experience, like again, these are the nuggets you you learn about along the way that paints the picture, and it's almost like a painting where everything is around the edges and it's all coming to the middle to create the the picture.

Yeah.

But you don't have everything at once, and I like that because it keeps things interesting.

You kind of build it as you go, yeah. Uh I did have a note after like the the abduction of Jake where I was just like, the only thing I have to hold on to. And I was like, maybe it's just my own deep hope about the kids of this world and the kids that I work with. It was like that I want the plot to feel unbelievable a little bit because I have to believe that kids today are not that blindly trusting of some random complete stranger wearing gloves showing up at their house and trying to like coax them out of the house in the middle of the night. Like, come on, please let them be a little bit more uh, you know, thoughtful than that. Please. Make sure your kids are, please. People.

I mean, I think back to when I was a kid, and you know, I think everyone or most people experience some sort of tease there's teasing and then there's bullying. Teasing is being silly about why don't you like that food and blah blah blah. Bullying is when you want to put gum in someone's hair or take their belongings without the permission and push them around. That's bullying. And when you start to feel alone, like there's no one in your corner, anyone who is, I think, can infiltrate into that. Although I do hope if they have a stable home life that they've learned the basics of Stranger Danger, I guess.

Right.

I also though envy kids when they're at the age before they start really being like drawn into understanding how the world works, when they can blindly think that everyone is wonderful and there's no bad in the world. I wish some days I could just go to that place with them because I I want to believe in the goodness, but it's just not there, really.

Right. And that's like that's a whole other like deep conversation though. If there was too much to go way down on this podcast of like Absolutely, yeah, where do you do it? It's like I'm I'm not a parent, but I do work with kids a lot. So like there's kind of that middle ground. But yeah, it's like you gotta find that fine line of like you want to preserve your kids' innocence while also protecting them and making sure that they understand that not everybody means what they say and not everybody is safe. Not everybody has your best, you know, right intentions in mind.

Like not everybody has a good heart.

Yeah.

Not everyone is a love thy neighbor person that treat that actually cares and is thinking of you first or having your best interest, you know, like you said. It is I mean, as adults, we navigate that with friendships, like trying to figure out who who can we trust and who don't we trust.

And so it's it's a hard thing to be like, you know, with kids and the innocence that they have, to be like you want to like have them hold on to that while also, like you said, the protection of being like, how do I let them know that there are people that will hurt them if they let them that are out there without ruining their view of the world that everything is good, like without ruining that innocence. Like, I don't know how you you know, you there's not a way to really do that. But you're like, I want them to be safe and I want them to know to like to look for signs and to avoid danger and not you know give in to people who are sketchy people, yeah. While also you don't want to put something in a kid's head so early to be like the people will do this or this or this to you because you want them to be loving and like positive and view things through that like childlike wonder and like trust and and wholesomeness.

And it's yeah, you don't want them to lose it.

You can't do that.

You don't want them to lose it, but you have to protect them. So you have to find a line in between. Anyone who's listening that is a parent, we would love it if you would let us know kind of what the fine line is or how you navigate situations like that. Because I just can't imagine trying to do it. Like it's hard enough as an adult trying to navigate who's good and who's bad in the world. Like it's it's it's it's really rough. So where were we, Peig?

Uh, we were with Tom Tom going with to his dad, kind of reuniting with his father, but not really a reunion, not a loving reunion. It's still a strange relationship. They don't speak clearly. He said he's never even met Jake before. But he's like, Jake's life is on the line. We have to save him. So that means I have to go to my dad for help because he put the original Whisper Man away. He knows this case inside and out. He's the person that that I have to lean on for this. We're just like, now that Jake's gone, I was like, God, I hope that doesn't mean Neil's already dead. I was like, shit, I'm already thinking about the other kid. I'm like, oh no. But you know, they meet at this diner, and I I don't know why, but I loved the line so much. I had to write it down where Tom says, and he goes, You're a shitty father, but you're a good fucking detective.

Yep.

And it's like, yeah, put it out there. It's like, this isn't us getting back together. It's like, you're a terrible dad, but I don't need a dad right now. I need the man who put away the whispered man to figure out what the hell's going on.

Exactly. And you know what? Humans are flawed, and we know this, we've talked about this on countless episodes, where nobody is a saint. People have different parts of their personality that are difficult or challenging, and no, Peter was not a great father. But he is a great detective, and there are things he can do. I still don't know why he didn't volunteer to help Amanda at the beginning, but when it became more personal, he was, you know, he was in. His son kind of gave him the riot act when it seemed like he didn't want to help. He he was just like, you're I I felt like Tom was thinking, yeah, you're just the asshole father that I knew you were, and you're not willing to even help your grandson. I know you haven't ever met him, but he's your blood. Like, that's what I figure is going on in Tom's head. And it's like, I need you to do this for me. I don't ask you for anything. This is what I need from you.

Yeah. And I I like that, you know, with Tom, it's a good thing that Tom is also there because like you can see that he gets some of the his father's, you know, know-how from that. I mean, obviously, he is a like crime author, so he writes books about this kind of stuff. Uh, but then also, I mean, his like I'm not waiting around for the cops to quote unquote look into it. He's like, I'm also gonna be doing my due diligence because this is my son's life. And uh, because I know this case from when my dad was dealing with it when I was a kid, yeah, we don't have a lot of time.

And so I think it's like a six six-day time frame.

Yeah. So he's just like, I'm doing what I can. So I mean he's going through like, yeah, the mail that's being sent to the previous tenant of that house still, he's looking into that name and realizing, oh, like, this person was in prison with Frank Carter. So that's a lead that, like, I'm gonna do something about and I'm not gonna wait for the police to do it. I'll tell them, I'll tell my dad, but like I'm gonna look into this, so he goes and talks to the landlord, which turns out to be that guy's aunt. The landlord lady, saucy. I liked her a lot. Yes.

The one scene she's She was great. Like, yes, you're fun. She wasn't, you know, she was pissed at her nephew, but he really couldn't do anything. I mean, he he he was dead. We didn't know it at the time, but he was dead.

Yeah. Yeah, and it sort of starts that kind of mystery of what's going on. It's like, okay, he was in prison with Frank, and we do find out that he was an accomplice of Frank Carter's to some degree, that like he knew where the body of Tony Smith, that last victim, was.

Yes.

And that's why he was in that house, was keeping it from being found. But yeah, he's going on that lead, and again, you know, Peter is with Beck when Tom calls, so he's like, well, he knows his son well enough to like fuck, I guess I'm gonna have to go to these apartments and stop him from getting into trouble because I know exactly what he's gonna do. Um he got that lead, I know where he's going. Uh and then when they just cut to like the next morning, that scene, and then all the cops and everybody at the park with the tape, and I was like, fuck, and there's Neil Spencer.

Yep, yep.

And it's just like, and then all like the same methods, the nails, the stuff, and it's just like and that's where you realize like Peter's really starting to get, you know, worried because he's like it's a copycat, but like to an insane degree, where it's like this is stuff that we'd never put out to the public that that that was going on, and everything is being followed to a T. So it has to be somebody that's connected.

Mm-hmm. It has to be someone that's connected and knows even the most intimate details. And you know what at this point, I thought it this was kind of a harebrain thing. I thought it might be um Tony Smith, the final victim, because they never found the body, and I thought, uh-huh, does he have an accomplice? And the accomplice had Tony, and maybe Tony's now involved in this because he's got Stockholm syndrome. I don't know. Like I that was the beginning, and and then I kind of wrote that off and said, no, I don't think that's what it is. There's something more personal about this, so I'm I'm gonna wait. Try to figure it out.

Yeah, but how close it is, that's where because Peter's been putting it off. He doesn't like, I'm not gonna talk to Frank Carter. He's just gonna he's not a good man to talk to. It's not a pleasant time.

No. Michael Keaton, though.

Yeah, but finally it's like, okay, this is serious enough that like we have to at least try that angle and see what we can get. And then so going in there, and again, because I try not to look into things too much, so it was a surprise to see some of the cast. And so I got I was like, ah, Michael Keaton. I was like, that is awesome. I mean, his character is one of the most despicable and sickening fictional human beings I've ever laid my eyes on, but I do love me some Keaton's.

Well, when we get to the part about why he was killing children, that was incredibly unsettling and disgusting. Just, oh my god.

Yeah, and I like that, you know, Detective Beck is there, and it's a good attempt at an angle at first where she was just like, you know, Frank Carter's in here speaking about his disgusting deeds as his life's work and meaning and the thing that he's supposed to do. So she kind of goes with this angle of like, well, if you don't have a hand in the new guy's actions, whatever, if it's some copycat that you don't have anything to do with, you should help us stop him so that your legacy or whatever isn't, you know, replaced and taken over by some copycat.

Yeah, she was preying on his ego.

Yeah, a little bit, which I liked. And Carter sees through it, but he I like that he respects that. He was like, she's eager, I like that, you know. Uh of course he was kind of helping pull the strings a little bit. Not exactly, but he did know what was going on. He he knew exactly the what you know what his son was doing and the plans behind it. So it kind of was a continuing. There was ego there, but it was like, oh, my work is being carried on through him.

Well, and you had to put the pieces together. Like, this was their first meeting with him is when I figured out who the killer was.

Really?

Yes. Big big note. Yes. Frank's son is the killer. I know it, I'm calling it right now. That's when I figured it out. Because of what he said when they left. When they were leaving, he said something about fathers, uh, children deprived of a father's love will mytholicise them.

Mythologize, yeah.

Yeah, we'll mythologize them. And that's what I knew. I'm like, it's gonna be his son. There was also this moment a little bit earlier when they were interviewing his wife, and she had a someone beside her, and it looked like a child, and I thought, oh my god, yeah, it's gotta be his son. His son is doing this.

Um figure it out though as quick, so that's good. Yeah. Uh, which I should because it was there, and then because those are the exact same clues that they end up going back and using themselves at the end. Um but yeah, because Carter still he seems angry and vengeful towards his son, which he is in a way. But, you know, he's just like, oh, they ratted me out and put me here, so you know, give me five minutes with them. And it's like, yeah, I don't care how much I love someone. If I find out a person that I know is doing something like this, then yeah, like bye-bye. You don't just like hide something like that and care cover for somebody. So, like, good on them for turning you in, or at least your wife. His son was too young to really know as much.

But he seemed to have so much rage against his son even before any of this came out. Like, when he decides he wants or is going to do these things, it's because he what he really wants is to kill his son.

Yeah.

And no reason why just having a child.

There's this thing in his head from his own traumas that and it but instead of killing his son, then he was able to redirect those fantasies into killing other boys that same age, which I mean, still not a great use of your get the therapist.

Um Well, Francis Frank Jr. was acting like a therapist with those kids. That's what that whole taping thing was. Like the questions he asked are very much things you might hear in therapy. Only they were being manipulated as the kids were talking.

Um, but yeah, but you know, like Frank Carter knows more than he's letting on. Because even in this conversation with Peter, like he's throwing these like, you know, little things, he's like, Well, I know you're still looking. You know, like the sixth victim basically is is Peter, where he's like, You're still out there looking for Tony Smith. It's eating you alive that you can't find that body of that last victim. And he's talking about Tom. It's like he knows he's an author, and you know, he's bringing up his son, and so like there's probably even much more that he's not saying, that he's just those little things to pick at him to be like it's it's kind of that classic, you know, serial killer trope of like I'm only gonna say just so much to where you know that there's something else going on. I'm not gonna give it all away, but I'm gonna sprinkle just little pieces for you because I like the thrill of being caught, of possibly being caught, you know, which is you know, so those things he said about the the father and the son and stuff that then leads to Peter realizing that it's the junior that's doing it, the son. But yeah, he's definitely talking to somebody on the outside, and they think it's which it turns out it was, but we get yeah, uh Norman Collins or Amy Schlink later, which was another another one that I was just like surprised to see, and it was like, ah, you know I love being seeing some of him and everything.

I knew you'd be so excited about that. Because we really didn't have any info about this movie when we decided to do it. And so when I'm looking at the cast list, I didn't I didn't tell you anything, but I knew and I knew that you'd be super excited to see him.

Yeah. Uh which, you know, even when they first, when when Beck goes in and talks to him first, you're like, okay, maybe he's not the bad guy, but uh he is he's an eccentric who's obsessed with collecting murder memorabilia. He's like, still a really strange dude that I want nothing to do with. Like, I'd be like, no, thank you.

Um, he is the person that Tom saw running out of the house.

Which I didn't recognize that at first. Uh I actually had to rewind and go back to that scene. Because I didn't recognize Hamish Link Later in that because it was so quick.

It was very quick.

To where then it was like, that's the guy that was in the basement. I was like, no, it wasn't. That was some other guy with a beard. And so I had to rewind the movie, and I was like, oh shit, it was Hamish Link Later. So, okay. It was Norman Collins that was down there with you.

Yeah. Um because at first I thought it was the other guy that they were looking for.

Yeah, but he was still in the basement.

But he was still in the basement.

Dominic Barnett, yeah.

Yeah, in this secret type room. Like off the basement that you had to like move stuff to get to.

Yeah, which they they get the information. Beck and Peter, they don't pull their punches a little bit. They get the information from another like sexual predator that's in the prison. Like to find out exactly that, you know, how who Frank had contacted and put Norman Collins back in the crosshairs a little bit by being, you know, basically they're like, Yeah, we we're gonna send you to a different prison, and then there you don't have protection from somebody like Frank Carter. And you know what they do to people like you in another prison, and he's just like, okay, I'll tell you everything you need to know.

Uh yeah. It that that it didn't take much. Just that that threat put the fear in him, and so he he opened up about it. And then they go back to see him, only it's not for happiness. They go back to see him and his memorabilia, because he's got all this creepy memorabilia there. I love that she took the was it the hammer?

Yeah.

Because they realized they had figured out that the nephew, aka the house, the person that was living in the house, he was dead.

Yeah.

And it was a blunt instrument that did it.

Which, yeah, a lot of this being found out because again, Tom maybe jumped the gun a little bit. Yes. But it worked out by just like following uh Tom and and and checking out and it because a lot of that came from him just doing his own snooping.

He found these letters from Frank to his dad.

And like little Tommy being talked about a lot in those letters, so it's definitely very unsettling for him. And so he's talking to Beck about that, and then while Beck is taking a call, he sneaks a look at her notes and realizes Collins did talk to Frank Carter, and there is this connection to this guy. He gets his address and he's like, I'm just taking it into my own hands. Um which he wasn't the one that killed any of these kids, and he but he knew the I don't even yeah, he did know the person that hit it because he set him up, like reconnected. They connected them. And even though he's not the one actively doing it, like he's still like those kind of return to the scene of the crime or you know, things that like killers do. Even if he's not connected when when Tom follows him, because he goes out to the like the park where Neil's body was found, and they have the memorial form there, and he's taking pictures of it and stuff. It's like even if you're not connected anyway, it's like that's just that's not okay. Like we get like if you have a fascination with murder, but like this kid was just killed, and that is way too soon, and it's like a public like what no, what are you ooh, no, what are you doing?

Tom loses it.

Yeah. Which Collins is Go ahead. Catch. I was like, here's a fun little catch, is yeah, because as he like pulls him out of his car and is chasing him, and then gets tackled by like one cop or security guard, and then the other one stops Collins, and uh Tom is laying on the ground and is pointing up at him and just going, He's the Whisperman! He's the Whisperman. And you see all the teachers in the playground are like leading the kids back in a way. Yep. Do you see who one of the teachers was that was on that playground maneuvering the kids around?

You know, tell me.

It was Owen Teague, who plays Francis Carter Jr.

Mm-hmm.

Owen Teague. And so when when Tom is laying there yelling, he's the Whisperman, unknowingly, he is pointing directly in the direction of the actual whisperman.

The actual Whisperman. Where on earth would we know Owen Teague from oh I mean, he's made an appearance before on a Run for your lives podcast as far as a movie two movies we talked about.

Yes.

And that would be it chapter one and it chapter two.

Yeah, and then we also, not we, but I also talked about him on a podcast when I did some coverage of the stand over on Stream News because he was in that.

Yeah. It's I and looking at this, there are th there's more movies we could do on this list. So it's like, okay. Welcome back to Run for Your Lives ONT. I'm sure we'll talk about you again at some point.

Yeah. Which is again one of those things that really like fucked me up about that character of Frank Jr. or Francis, is that he was on that like playground, so he's working at the school.

Access, Pink. Access. It's a hunting ground for him.

Right. And is yeah, another one of those things that just like really sets that disgust to me, like makes me feel sick to my stomach, is once like you realize that, because it's like, yeah, because he kills this childhood psychologist and then has been operating out of his home, but he's has you know he's working at this school and he's monitoring and picking out his target. So that's how he was keeping an eye on Jake, because he was working at that school. And then again, you know, what we've talked about, like the obvious reasons there that why it just sickens me because I'm like, again, that perversion, that bastardizing of the position that he's in to help kids, and instead he's using it to prey on them and and find his targets, and it's like is again, it's like the full evil opposite version of like what I do, which is what makes it so sickening to me to be like I could never imagine like using that kind of the information that I have and the connections that I have to try to do something so vile. Like I would never imagine it's like oh it's it's hor it's horrible.

I don't think that Colin should have been anywhere near a school, period. I didn't get warm and fuzzy feelings from Collins' character. Which is, you know, Hamish Linkletter is great at playing complicated characters.

But yeah, again, I had to back it up and re-watch that scene because I didn't recognize him that first time. Because yeah, so I was just like, okay, so it was Norman Collins that was there. And then it is some weird stuff, because like, you know, in the police interview, he's even saying some weird stuff because it's like, well, he's a fan of Tom as an author, and he kind of even he knows what's going on because he connected Frank and his son, because he even has says something. Whereas, like, you know, we went through your house and we found Tom Kennedy's book.

Mm-hmm.

And it's just like, so you broke in, you were in the basement of this man, and you say you don't know him, but you clearly are a fan of him because you own his books that he has written. And he was like, Well, I'm a fan of him as an author. And they're like, Well, what is it you like about his writing, his books? And he goes, Well, he has a dark mind, like his father. And at first I'm like, What are you trying to say about Peter? But then it's like, You're giving a hint away of something else completely.

Yep. You have to pay attention. After figuring out who I thought the killer was, I was looking for every single clue to back that up.

Yeah, so he was down there, he was in the basement. We know that now, and so then Peter and Tom go back to the basement to like, what was he looking for then? Why was he in there? He's not some squatter like we originally thought. We've seen how rich he is in his nice house, so it's like obviously he's down there for another reason. Uh and that's where they find what Peter's been searching for 30 years. You know, um over that. And now at this point, like right over. But yeah, the body of Tony Smith, uh Frank Carter's last victim, and it was in the basement of that house the whole time.

Mm-hmm.

And so Peter's finally found him, and then it's like, well, how did Collins know that he was looking there? Uh and then also, but then we're like kind of the supernatural stuff that they don't touch on again, but Jake had said something about, you know, the girl and the is afraid of the boy in the floor, and it was like, where did that how did Jake know about that? Like, what the hell?

Uh it is kind of supernatural.

There's a little bit there.

Yeah, to me, it alludes to Jake having some sort of sensitivity with regard to spirits.

Yeah. But they found him, so then they're like, well, why is Collins down there? And so then they find the body of Barnett in the wall as well. And so then I was just like, oh, so it's a coincidence, and he didn't even know about Tony Smith at all, and he just happened to kill Barnett, but then why would he and it's like, oh no, he killed Barnett because he knew the body of Tony Smith was there.

Yeah.

And that's where we get the reveal from from Collins that he basically bought the location of this victim that nobody else knew from Carter by the price of reconnecting him to his son so that Francis Jr. could continue the work of the Whisperman. And he was like, I didn't think it was gonna ever go there. I didn't think he was gonna start it. He just wanted to, I was like, Who knows? No, you knew he really had to be.

I mean, if you look in the little boys' eyes when they show us the clip of the mom being interrogated, why would you allow that child to be in the room for the interrogation? I don't know. Like, I don't think that's probably.

If you're questioning him about all the stuff that he's done to these other boys, it's like, why is the kid in the room?

He's getting exposed to things that he shouldn't be hearing at this age or any other.

Stuff he needs to be hearing about and knowing about, yeah. But but yeah, Collins doesn't give away who he connected him with, just more clues, doesn't tell him that it was his son because before he gives him a name and he's not going to prison. Um so he just kills himself as well in his house after admitting to killing Barnett.

Did you see what he used to kill himself?

It's that screwdriver.

The one that the woman used what to stab someone 40 times? Yeah.

Uh-huh.

He he had all the memorabilia. He was not gonna go to prison. I can imagine, because he's very eccentric, I don't see it going well for him there.

And then yeah, again, you find those clues, because again, Carter can't help but speak poetically to some degree, darkly, you know, to this they put they put the pieces together and realize it's Francis Jr. Um that's kind of now carrying the mantle of Whisperman. Of course, the problem is is they there is no Francis Carter Jr. that exists because he would be uh operating under being employed by if he has a house or a car or anything, it's all under a new name legally, because he is under witness protection. And so the FBI would have to release that information. And they finally do, uh, as she's in the house with him, but she kind of had a feeling already she had the right guy.

Yeah, I've seen movies before where the person is in the room and finds out.

This was where it was very silence of the lamps for me. Is I was she's in the house questioning the guy. Jake is in a room, you know, upstairs. Yeah.

Yeah, it was very silence of the lamps.

Um then also again with just the the methods of the whispered man that was very black phone as well.

Yeah. This is also the moment though that we get the girl in the blue sweater telling Jake to scream. Because they knew someone was in the house, and if Jake screamed, he had a good good, you know, a good chance of getting rescued. And so he did scream, and that alerted back to his existence in the house, which she already knew that he was that Frank Jr. was the killer. Yeah, that's the evidence. Yeah.

Yeah. Which, yeah, we get some just fucked up family dynamics and desires. Yeah, we talked about Carter fantasizes about killing his son, but then held that off by killing these other boys instead. But then Peter kind of makes this really fucked up thing, but it works for Carter. It was like this deal. He's like, Well, I can get you your son in person in the same prison, so you can finally finish off that that arc, those desires you have. But you're gonna have to comply and tell me where is Jake? What is he doing? Where is he taking him? What's gonna happen? Can we get to him?

He learns that they had a plan. There was a plan for Jake specifically, so I do believe he was targeted for multiple reasons.

Yeah. Yeah, because it seems like which I hate to talk about it, but it's fiction, so you know we can Is it it kind of seems like a lot of times the boys are are strangled and killed in the house, and then their bodies are taken somewhere and dropped off. And instead he put the shirt on him but didn't kill him before. Because it seems like you s he strangles them with their own t-shirt.

Yeah.

In this case, he just had it on him, and then he was gonna have him suffocate sealed away in that basement, like Tony was at least, you know, towards something different. And so there's a little extra time. They could be there to to save him. But yeah, it's not until after Beck has been properly stabbed several times that sh you know that information can get out by uh Peter. Uh but then Peter and Tom get in connection so they know to go back to the house. Cause yeah, that was the thing, is because when we see Jake being interviewed after the reveal, so we then see Owen Teague's face as Francis Jr. Where you know he asks him basically, Are you gonna make me, you know, sleep forever? And he says, I'm gonna take you home. And then I was like, Oh shit, literally, back to the house he abducted him from. Like they're going back to that house.

Yeah. And this is around the time we really get the nitty-gritty of or just before this we get the nitty-gritty of what happened to Frank as a child with his father. Like his father abused him, molested him, made him want to disappear. And again, it's a cycle of abuse that started, like in that in that way. But I want to understand, even though I don't think you can, why he wanted to kill his son so much before he did any of these murders. Frank wanted to kill his son anyway. His son never stood a chance, never stood a chance, because it was in his blood, I guess, to continue the cycle of abuse, because that is three generations right there. And Beck tries to get Jake to run, but Frank, yeah, Frank Jr.'s able to get him.

He's on a staircase with a woman possibly dying at the bottom. So it goes back to that fear that he has. And I I'm thinking back to that, you know, that scene when they first move into the house where Tom picks him up and he's holding it, he's closing his eyes and carries him up the stairs. A bit before that, where he says, What are we gonna do? He's like, Be brave. And I'm like trying to like well, I'm like sitting there and she's like, run, Jake. And he's sitting there and he's looking at the stairs, he's all scared, and I was like, Come on, Jake, be brave. Right. Run, go, it's the staircase, but you're okay, you got it.

But he has the girl in the blue sweater, and that seems to help him throughout this ordeal. Because she's there, at least, even though she's not there physically, she's there in his mind, and that does help him get on the move. But Frank Jr. is able to get him. I mean, he grabs him, they get in the car and go.

I know. Which I would here's how my brain was going, because I was like, I have to think it would be very difficult to drive with a kid in your car that you're actively kidnapping and he knows you're going to kill him, and he's not restrained or anything. I was like, how does that work? And then when they get there, I was like, oh, the trunk. I didn't think about that. And I was like, maybe that's a good sign that I didn't think about that as an option. No. No, that's not I'm not putting together well, how would I do that? I I don't think about that.

No. It's a way that makes sense. Yeah. It wasn't like, you know, he he didn't drug him or anything. He just there was no time.

Yeah.

He just he threw him in. But she had called for backup. So that also like so the backup was on the way, but it got together.

Until he redirected it. He redirected it too. He called and said, like, I just saw somebody with the kid that was speaking, and he's on sent them to the other side of town.

Yeah.

But yeah, we get the yeah, foreshadow the Chekhov's rotten floorboards.

Oh man. I was so glad to see that happen because I was so sure. You know you see something early on and you're like, that's gonna come back. And it usually does, but sometimes it doesn't.

And then I liked kind of how they wrapped things up at the end because I was like, Beck survived, yay! And she's getting a letter from Frank. Ugh. Yeah. Uh and then I was like, and Francis survived, yay! Because that means he gets gets to die an even more horrible and terrible death in prison at the hands of his father. Uh, poetically, with the shirt, strangled with the shirt over his face, the same way he killed Neil Spencer and that other boy, and was going to, you know, with Jake. Well, again, there was a kind of a different plan for Jake, I guess, in you know, in the basement, but he killed a couple of kids that way, so it's like, you know what? Poetically good, you go out that same way, man.

Yeah, but Frank Sr. should go out that way.

Yeah.

As well. It'll be nice if that happens at some point.

Because he, I mean, his father abused him, but then he abused his son. I feel bad that his son that this was the situation because he wanted the approval of his father, and uh he thought continuing his work was going to I don't know, make him love him. I d I'm not really sure. But Frank put the t-shirts over them to strangle them, not because he didn't want to see their faces, but because he was imagining he was killing his own son.

Yeah.

So he didn't want to see the face because that's why he didn't want to see the face. Not because he felt bad about what he was doing. No, this is about his own thing. It's very twisted. I want to read the book because I want to dive into that a little bit more and and see maybe if things are fleshed out a little bit more.

Right. And then, yeah, of course, the other kind of wrap-up thing, because Peter, unfortunately, yeah, did not survive. Uh Francis Jr. did kill him, which is sad. But now Tom and Jake are in his house. Uh, they don't have to rent that creepy old house with the murder basement. Uh, they can move into this place. And Jake has friends in the neighborhood and seems to be acclimating back to normal life pretty well, which makes me happy. I'm like, good. Let's get this kid some kind of normalcy. Hopefully he has a freaking therapist. Uh hopefully he's got a good counselor, mentor, somebody to talk to. Um then, yeah, the the reveal to Tom, even the girl in the blue sweater, where he's going through the pictures that Jake had been collecting in his satchel and his packet of things. And there's the picture of his mom, you know, Tom's late wife, as a kid wearing that that sweater. And it kind of is, yeah. And then with the Jake, even before going outside to play with his friends, saying, like, Mom saved me. And it's like, oh, like, kind of literally, like she was there with you and loved you and supported you and protected you through all of that. It was a very beautiful way to end that.

Yeah.

And then random note on the casting note. So uh Axton Luca Porto, who played Jake, uh, was great. Uh obviously young Aston Lucas. Actor uh hasn't done a whole lot, but I did see uh something coming up for him. Uh he will be in the upcoming uh La Yorona sequel, which we may eventually get to at some point. It's in that loosely extended conjuring universe. Yes.

We have an order for that.

Yeah.

We are making our way through the conjuring, but we have done so much of the supernatural this season. I'm trying to stay away from it for the rest of the season. Um, just because we've it's just become something that we we're known for now. We're just tackling it. The only other thing that I had was a couple of differences between the book and the movie. So I'm only gonna read ones that I think connect to and are vague enough. So in the book, Pete Willis is still a member of the police force and he's the one that leads the investigation. The timeline for the reconciliation between Tom and Pete is they reconnect just before Jake is taken. And so Pete gets to be a grandfather before this happened, which is great. I'm not gonna read the next one because it's it's a big difference. So I'm not gonna read that one. Uh the girl in the blue sweater, they introduce that midway through. Not at the end. And it's used to amplify Tom's guilt over not listening to Jake's pleas for help. And then there is a character that is introduced as a potential romantic interest for Tom, but it doesn't really go anywhere. And I'm not gonna do anything else because I do not want to spoil it. So I've been as vague as I possibly can. So our listeners need not worry.

I might have to check that. Okay, we've got a new local bookstore that just opened up that's super cool, so maybe I'll have to.

Yeah. I haven't checked yet to see if there is an audiobook, but I'm sure there must be an audiobook for it. So that that's what I need is an audiobook.

If it's at a level where it's being adapted into a film, then I'm sure there's an audiobook recording somewhere.

I need that. I mean I can listen to it while I'm working, and yeah, it works out really well when that happens. And I don't have any I don't think I have any other notes.

No, I kind of wrapped that up too. I was gonna say, man, it's gone long. It still has gone a little long, but not as long, because it took us longer to start recording. So it's looking like two hours, but it's really more about an hour.

It's really, yeah, yeah, yeah. So um I I will say this, I thought I I mentioned this before. It was very clever the way that they used former music tapes for things. Like Jake's was the Partridge family. But then they showed a few of the others. One was Tiffany, like these are all like 80s cassette tapes. Um 80s and 90s. So I thought that was kind of interesting. I never did that to my cassette tapes. I didn't uh put tape over it. I mean, I knew that you could, but with cassette tapes, you would get blank ones and record with your friends and do silly stuff. But you could still record over music ones if you put a piece of tape over the hole that allowed for recording so that it was covered up that you were able to use it. Same thing if you wanted to record on VHS tapes. Like it worked the same way. But I think we did it, Peg. This this one, man. It pulled a lot out.

Yeah.

When we when I was holding some strings for sure.

Yeah. When I was halfway through watching tonight, you know, I knew at that point that this was gonna be a longer one because I knew we were gonna talk about serious stuff. It's we always do when we have the subject matter. Because you can't treat it like sometimes with the movies that we cover, we can be silly about stuff. Yeah. But when it's subject matter like this, we have to take it seriously. And I think we did.

Yeah, just ready to get back to the school next week with my kid and just be like, you're safe, everything's fine, you're good. I've got ya. I will beat up anybody and anyone who looks at you wrong. Get behind me. You're fine.

It's pink the knight to defend all children of the realm.

But yeah, yeah, I think we got it there. So see if anybody has some thoughts on that. And as I said that, of course, the feedback phone's going off. And I always look over my left shoulder as if like there's just like a theoretical answering machine over there something.

But our listeners can't see it.

Yeah, I'll get it. Alright, we do have some feedback this week for this one, which, yay, awesome. Uh so yeah, let's get into it. Uh definitely, I'll go ahead and let you take that first one.

I will. Well, Catherine sends in. The Whisper Man reminded me of Criminal Minds, Law and Order SVU, and Silence of the Lambs, and some of the Monster of the Week episodes of Supernatural. So, of course, I loved it. But I can see why it received mediocre ratings. It felt more like a long episode of TV rather than a feature film. I'm guessing the rough subject matter pushed it to film rather than another crime drama. The Whisper Man was a very rough watch, showing one of the most terrifying nightmares a parent could experience. I wanted the villain to be supernatural, but humans have always scared me more. While I think the ending was supposed to be a little open-ended, I'd like to think that there were some positive supernatural elements going on. I appreciated the lighter scenes where I could happily cheer on Tom and Jake. You can put me on yellow. I loved that burn. The color system has been proven ineffective and mostly relies on shame to get good behavior. Some of my daughter's friends who attend local private schools still use the system, and the poor kids panic at the thought of being labeled red or bad. That's sad. So sad. I made a note, but can't remember what it referred to. Quote, well, they may have lost me with the skin to skin. Oh, we just killed him. Skin to skin means something really different now. Oh dear. End quote. Thank you, Catherine.

That was I'm sure, yeah. Did we talk about that specifically now that you've listened to the episode? I don't know. Because that was the ending between father and son. Yes. Yes. And then we have one from Laura who says, I look forward to hearing you cover this movie. I thought it was really good. Love Adam Scott and De Niro. Great performances by all. Definitely agree with that.

Yeah, we couldn't agree more.

Hope you enjoyed it.

Well, if you'd like to submit feedback, you can find us on the Podcastica Discord on the Run for your Lives channel there. You can find us on Facebook and Instagram at Run for Your Lives Podcast, or email us at RunFo Your Lives Podcast at gmail.com. If you're enjoying the show, tell your friends. We're available on all the podcast players, including Apple, Spotify, YouTube, and more. You can go to RunFo Your Lives Podcast.com for all the links you're ever going to need, and give us a review on Apple Podcasts as that is the best way to share the love and get us out there even more. We really appreciate it.

Absolutely we do. And of course, speaking of sharing the love, you now gotta give those shout outs to things going on in the Podcastica universe around us and beyond. A lot of great stuff for you to check out this week while you're waiting for the next episode of Run for Your Lives. Of course, uh over on Podcastica, the newest podcast, Everything's Fine, will be a Widow's Bay coverage uh podcast that'll be going through and watching that first season, covering all those episodes. So you can go back and if you want to re-watch the show or finally jump into it, now's the time to go check that out and listen to Everything's Fine alongside with uh Jason and Karen over there covering that. And then you can go check out another uh Walking Dead rewatch uh episode over on the Walking Dead cast. Of course, uh season seven, episode three, The Cell. That is uh the song may be there, but it's not an easy street uh to listen to over and over again. Uh is that episode, if you know, you know, uh Jason, Lucy, and Randy on that one, so you can check out that. And then they will be taking a break from that rewatch very soon as uh Crystal Lake coverage will pick up over there. Um so you can check that out as well. Also, um a special episode uh just recently added up there, uh the new Resident Evil uh movie that just came out, Zach Krager directed uh Jason and Rima. So Rima's back on the airwaves. You can uh check her out, uh getting with Jason to talk about that movie. So there's that. So definitely go check that out if you've seen that and want to hear something on that one. Then there's of course uh Casting Light, the HBO Max Lanterns uh podcast covering that. Episode seven out this week. Jason, Kirk, and Jim covering that. So you can go check that out as well. And then on more rewatch stuff, of course, our friends Penny and Kara over at Still Slaying doing uh Angel this week, season two, episode eight, Shroud of a Ramon. So you can watch that uh over there if you're a big uh Angel and Buffy verse fan. They've been covering all kinds of episodes and stuff over there and doing some fun stuff, and then little specials here and there, so a lot of great stuff to listen to on that feed. Check out Still Slaying for sure. And then outside of Podcastica, of course, um a lot of other great uh coverage. Our friends at Pirate Core Entertainment Podcast Network have uh Crystal Lake coverage as well, which is of course the Friday the 13th series coming up over on the What's On Tonight podcast. So you can listen to that. I think uh Mark himself jumping onto What's On Tonight for that one, so that'll be really cool to go check out. And then our friends at TV Podcast Industries also doing lanterns coverage on their feed as well, so you can go check that out. If you want more of me and Daphne this week, then if you're not already, go listen to the Buffalo Buffalo Podcast, our other podcast, uh doing things a little differently. We're just hanging out, being silly and goofy and dumb, and having the best time ever with our friends Jeff and Jerry uh playing games, hanging out, trying to drive Daphne as crazy as we possibly and legally can with all of our pun and tomfoolery shenanigans.

Lots of shenanigans. Too many shenanigans.

And again, again. But yeah, so after you check out all of that, then you know you can come back right here to run for your lives. Next Friday, we'll have something uh new and fun for you. Daphne, what are we doing next week?

Well, in a world where vampires dominate and the human population is nearly extinct, a vampire hematologist races to develop a blood substitute before widespread starvation destroys society. We are discussing the 2010 film Daybreakers. It was directed by Michael and Peter Spirig.

Yes. Been a little while since we did a vampire movie, and so we know some people really enjoy that, especially Tony. Uh when we get to those, so we have to do that for you. Um, yeah, been a little while, so it was time.

Absolutely, and we're getting down to the end of season 11. So we don't have that many movies left, but soon we're going to be thinking about our Riffle Awards. And Pake, I think this could be the toughest season yet.

There's a lot of good stuff on this one, for sure.

Yeah, it's gonna be difficult. We're really gonna have to think hard. It's gonna be some tough choices. With that, we have reached the end of another fun, terrifying, creepy episode of Run for Your Lives. Thanks everyone for listening. I'm Daphne. And I'm Peggy. And if you have to run, you better run for your lives.