18: "One More Game" (Squid Game S2E5)

[00:00:00] Hmm? Ah! Hmm. Hmm. Let's go! Let's go! Let's go! Let's go! Let's go! Let's go! Let's go! Let's go! Let's go! Let's go!

[00:00:20] Let's go!

[00:00:52] Hey everybody, welcome to the podcast. I'm Jason. And I'm David. And I'm Karen. Yay! In this episode, we're covering Squid Game Season 2 Episode 5. One More Game. Welcome back, David, and welcome, Karen. I'm glad you wanted to come on and talk about Squid Game. Why, thank you! Thank you! Yeah, I thought, you know, record one more podcast. One more podcast! One more podcast! One more pod! Yeah, this time I'll make all the money I need and then I can quit. Uh...

[00:01:24] Do you need to... Are you gonna come over here and shoot me? What? If you make it through the podcast, I'll give you five bucks. All right, let's get into it. Well, first off, David, you haven't been around in a while. I've been around in a couple of episodes. Have you watched the whole thing? Yeah, they put me on deep freeze in one of those coffins and I finally escaped. And I'm back. Uh, no. So we, uh, fair disclosure, we have actually watched, uh, episode six, but we have not watched the conclusion.

[00:01:53] We managed not to... So, uh, without saying anything, if you can, if you know, you can manage not to about number six, uh, we haven't talked to you in a couple of episodes. So how are you feeling about the season now? Any different? Uh, not too different. So look, I still really enjoy the show. It's interesting. It's compelling, creative, all those things. Uh, some touches on some familiar things that I love from season one.

[00:02:19] Uh, but I worried that the total originality and incredible drama and character development of season one would be very hard to match a second time. And I think that has proven true. Mm-hmm. So I'm still into it, but it's not the mind blowing show that it was in season one. Yeah. I guess I feel the same. I do.

[00:02:43] I did think of you making the particular point that in season one, you cared about the characters more. And this was when we were only a couple episodes in. And I, for me personally, I am caring about the characters a lot more now that I did. I mean, we didn't even meet them yet because we hadn't gotten into the games, but, um, you know, during the six legs games, I really wanted to see the mom and her son's team win. Like I cared. I didn't want to see them die. Did you feel any of that?

[00:03:13] Uh, I would say I do care. Like I've formed some bonds with the characters, but again, not to the level of the season one characters and, um, which I thought were, I don't know, just more interesting and had more depth somehow. And then especially there was a main character in season one who was super interesting, which is Gi-hun himself. And he's a little one note in season two, like he's kind of there for a specific purpose

[00:03:40] and we're not really learning much more about him. Which is one reason why I really, I'll get into it more, but love the conversation between him and his friend this episode where he said, oh, now you're acting like your old self because it was a reminder that, oh yeah, he used to be a little more lively. Right. And he actually was kind of almost happy go lucky. I would say. Yeah, for sure. Karen, what about you?

[00:04:06] How are you, how are you liking it compared to season one or just at all? Honestly, compared to season one, I feel sort of the same that, uh, we're sort of going around and exploring some of the same things again. However, I will also say that of the season two episodes, this one is my favorite. It's a good one. It is. I think it's a really good one. And one thing I realized this episode that is new about this season and I realized, yeah,

[00:04:35] it's, it would be almost impossible to make it as fresh as season one because it was just such a crazy idea. At least for me, I hadn't watched a lot of shows like this. But, um, anyway, one thing that's new is last season. We didn't really see a situation where a lot of people were forced to play the games who just wanted to go home. Right. Yeah. Cause they all didn't know what they were in for before red light green light.

[00:05:02] And then they've all voted to go home and then they all came back of their own volition. Now you might say it's like, they're, they're sort of forced to do it because of their own circumstances, but still they called the damn number and said, I want to come back. And then they were there and they had opted to be there. And this season there's people who just want to go home and they're forced to play. So that's a new dynamic, right? So, you know, right. And another new dynamic for the show is the, the voting, like they're going to have, they're going to have to keep voting.

[00:05:32] And keep voting yes or no. Yeah. And, and the minority is going to have to suffer even though they don't agree with what the majority voted for. That feels familiar. But anyway. Exactly. It's an interesting, an interesting, um, television show to watch for these times. Yeah. Yeah, it is. A lot of shows are like that right now. Interesting.

[00:05:56] Like there's a lot of shows coming out where, uh, it's about people who are kind of oppressed. And, um, it's about the times we're living in. I can't, I know severance feels like that. And it feels like there was another show that besides squid game that felt like that a big one, but I can't remember what it is right now. Yeah. Handmaid's tale severance is about, um, people being oppressed by technology. Mm hmm.

[00:06:22] And, uh, squid game is about people being ground under the heel of capitalism. Mm hmm. And each other. Yep. And that's part of it. Yeah. Yeah. But that's because they're in a system where for one person to succeed, another has to fail. And I think this episode does an interesting thing where it shows that maybe our natural instincts are to care about each other.

[00:06:46] But then when the reality of this system that we're stuck in, that's a zero sum game, then you start to get more selfish, you know, but it's anyway, I'll get more into that too. But before we get too far in, let's read the plot summary. Karen, do you want to read it? No, boy. Uh, we've already apologized in advance for all the mispronunciations of the Korean names. Thank you. Yeah. Double. That's double for me. Okay. Okay.

[00:07:12] After Hyun Joo's team manages to win through mutual support, many other teams are inspired and succeed. Ji Hyun's allies with Jung Bae, Jun Hee, and Player One, and 338, who's played by Kang Dai Ho, they succeed and exchange names after the game, though Player One falsely introduces himself as Oh Young Il.

[00:07:37] Noel is attacked by two soldiers involved in the organ trade, that's the pink guard number 11, who warn her to stop interfering. During the following vote, Player One encourages the players to vote against continuing the game, but a larger majority opts to proceed, believing the prize pool remains too small. Ji Hyun confides in Jun Bae about his growing uncertainty in rescuing everyone.

[00:08:05] Meanwhile, Jun Ho and Woo Seo, now with an expanded mercenary team, continue their search for the island. The third game, titled Mingle, requires players to enter designated rooms after forming groups based on an announced number. And around and around we go. Should we say a little bit more about what we thought about this episode in general or just go right into the points? Sure.

[00:08:35] I would comment on this episode. I agree with you both. I thought it was probably the best one of this season so far. I thought the game was reasonably interesting and compelling. I think In Ho is the most interesting character at this point. As he has some layers to him, his motivations aren't totally clear. And he's kind of the one we don't know much about.

[00:08:59] I feel like a lot of the other characters are sort of light rehashes of archetype characters we saw from the first season. But even if you're more positive about them, they're still not mysterious. They're easy to figure out. No. Agreed. So I think the overall cast is not as compelling in season two. But the one thing I didn't love about this episode and haven't loved about this season.

[00:09:28] And I kind of get like, I feel like I know why they're doing it. But to me, too much time on the voting. Like we're voting every episode. It takes up quite a bit of the episode and it's not that exciting. Interesting. I, you know, the characters.

[00:09:44] Um, well, one thing about the season that I already said on a previous episode, but one thing I love about Squid Game is it's the juxtaposition of the childlike and the horrific or the juxtaposition of the beautiful and the grotesque. But this season, they're doing something that I don't feel like is working, at least not for me. It's the juxtaposition of the, the intense and the goofy.

[00:10:08] Like they'll have music playing while people are getting mowed down or, you know, the whole way that, uh, the six legs game was played, especially in the previous episode when they showed the first half of it. It was just so goofy. And I don't, I don't know why, what, what they're trying to do with that. I, I don't know. Are they trying to be funny? I don't, I don't get it. Yeah. And the, the games in season one were so intense. Yeah. You could not take your eyes off the screen. And it's interesting.

[00:10:37] It's compelling, but it's not quite that. Like the part where the guy pees himself. Yeah. That could have been a really intense moment and it kind of was anyway, but they're playing goofy music. So it almost plays like a joke. Comic relief. Yeah. Yeah. Were you going to say something else, Karen? Yeah. Uh, the, um, what's the character with the purple hair? Thanos. What's his name? Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Thanos. Yeah.

[00:11:03] Thanos is also kind of a goofball and, uh, it drive me a little bit crazy too. So, um, really intense and, uh, and you know, taking drugs and incredibly goofy. And also, um, yeah, it takes me out of it a little bit cause I hate him so much. Yeah. He's yeah. He's very divisive and I actually kind of, I'm okay with him. I think he adds some life to it.

[00:11:32] And I guess one reason why I'm okay with it is he's playing the kind of a person who might actually act that way. You know, like if Kanye West was in there, I could see him acting kind of like that, you know? Yeah. And, and he is taking whatever it is he's taking. Yeah. Some new designer. Popping. Yeah. Popping the pills. So I guess you could say that that tracks, but still, uh, I liked it.

[00:11:55] I thought it had a lot of character moments and, um, like this woman who plays the mother whose name I keep forgetting. She's wonderful. She, yeah. Like she gets a little too goofy for me sometimes when, but when she's being really emotional, I think she's so good. I think the actress is good and I just really enjoy watching her and it makes me feel connected to her character and her son too. So I think I'm enjoying them more than most.

[00:12:24] Um, she had some great moments in this episode, especially when she's interacting with the trans character. Um, and got, was very nice. Um, also when she was interacting, uh, trying the whole bathroom scene going to, um, sort of, um, you know, get the guard to change his mind for that sweet pregnant girl. And, um, that was lovely.

[00:12:52] And also, uh, with her son, because, you know, honestly her son, um, who I want to strangle, there's a lot of characters in this. I want to strangle, but her son's one of them and how he votes to keep going, uh, because his debts much worse than previously stated to his mom. And just the look on her face, the devastation that it means that. Yeah. Yeah. Your mom's going to die probably because of you pal. Yeah.

[00:13:21] He voted to keep her there against her. Right. Yeah. The bad guys at home because of my debt, they're going to take my eyes, my kidneys. Yeah. Okay. Okay. In this, in this situation, your mom dies. Right. That's a very, yeah. I was thinking about that too, actually. Well, before we get more into points, let's talk about fucked up moment of the week. Maybe you just said yours. It's pretty bad. That was mine. Yeah. David. For sure.

[00:13:50] Uh, I thought a very straightforward fucked up moment of the week was when Gi-hun's team is celebrating their big victory and the camera has been focused on them exclusively for five minutes. And then they turn around to watch five people get gunned down right next to them. Right. Karen's laughing. That was totally fucked up. I am laughing and that was totally fucked up. It really was. Yeah. It's awful.

[00:14:17] Uh, what, uh, mine was just that people voted to stay again. And, and, and, and even more fucked up is that they don't have a choice. It's like the bread and lottery ticket thing from the first episode. It's like, there's just no good choice for these people. If they go home, they're desperate and don't have the money to pay back their debts. And it sounds like they're going to have their eyes taken or whatever. And if they stay, then they're probably going to die. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:14:46] All right, Karen, I want to go first. Sure. Okay. So yeah, my point, I'm going to talk about the, um, the voting and about how it seems like this season more than any other, although David disagree. We had a discussion about this last night. I feel like this season, it's, um, much more, um, about gambling and the sunk cost fallacy

[00:15:14] and how they keep saying one more game and then I'll vote to leave. Um, but I really just need one more game and that'll be enough money. And, uh, then, uh, you know, I've survived this far. I'm going to survive. I can, you know, I've gone too far. I can't just quit. And this particular episode, I felt like really leaned into that and it made it so much more

[00:15:40] compelling, especially because they get identified with the X's and the O's depending on how they vote and, um, people calling each other trader. And the voting makes a whole different dynamic this season. It's very aggressive people versus less aggressive people. And some of the, like the, the pregnant girl who just wants to go home. I kind of wonder how she wound up there in the first place.

[00:16:08] I mean, she, um, you know, she's pregnant, so that makes sense. And she knew that her near do well ex-boyfriend was there, um, somehow. So yeah, the whole thing is, um, well, she lost money because of him. Well, she followed his crypto. Right. Yeah. Right, right, right. But a lot of these people ended up there because they were desperate and then they played red light, green light and we're like, I'm not that desperate. I want to go home. You know, they didn't know that it was life or death.

[00:16:39] Right, right. Exactly. Exactly. So this season it's, it's different. It's a different dynamic. And, um, and it's, it is sort of also the sense of, um, hopelessness and, and powerlessness that comes from living in a, you know, um, sort of a majority wins democracy, you know, the, the bad guys won. So it's like we're trapped.

[00:17:07] And, you know, this, this train is headed down to the brick wall. And there's nothing we can do about it. Yep. It sucks. Yeah, it does. But it's, it's interesting to watch. It makes it, it does make it compelling in a way that season one wasn't. And I'm glad it's different in that way, you know, David. Uh, so just continuing along those lines about the money and the vote.

[00:17:35] Uh, so we're up to 20.1 billion won after the second game for 255 surviving players, which amounts to about 55,000 per, uh, us dollars. Mm-hmm. Um, that actually seems like quite a bit. So, um, if more than half the people find that to be not nearly enough, um, I don't know

[00:18:01] if that's realistic or an exaggeration for the story, but that paints a picture of people in quite a bit of debt. I'm pretty sure when, you know, in the first, uh, well, a couple episodes ago when they flashed people's debt on the screen that this is still below any number that was flashed, but it's getting close. Gotcha. Yeah.

[00:18:23] And it makes me wonder why, why doesn't Jihoon say, okay, I'm going to, um, uh, pay the rest of your debt. We all get 54,000 and then I'll make up whatever's left. Even if he doesn't have it, he could say he has it. He could just say it. Yes. Cause my, I was going to say, I figured it out at one point and he still wouldn't, he wouldn't be able to cover most of their debt. Maybe now I haven't figured it out lately that more people left.

[00:18:52] Maybe he could cover a lot of it, but, um, you're right, man. He could just say it anyway. Well, they know how much he has though. They could, they could maybe figure it out if they knew he won the first game. Yeah. They'd know how much money he had. And it was years ago. I mean, he spent a lot of money since then. Well, you saw there was just like 15% or so gone. If that whole cube of cash represented all the money that he had back at his place. And there was just a fairly small chunk of it gone.

[00:19:20] Also, it doesn't, you know, even if he says, look, I'll cover 95% of your debt, 95% of your debt or whatever. That's yeah. He is telling his team. He told that to his team. If you, if you vote to go home, I'll take care of you. But I think a lot of people in that room don't believe him. And I don't think that strategy would have worked. So I know we disagree about this. He should try it though. But yeah, all he would have to do is convince, you know, however many to vote to leave.

[00:19:49] He wouldn't have to convince them all. Yeah. He wouldn't even have to convince half because there's already plenty of people who want to vote to go home. Maybe he would have to convince like 20% or something. Yeah. Yeah. So the voting points up the, the big difference of, Hey, this time we'll let you leave with partial prize money. It doesn't have to go all the way to the end down to one person. Um, so there's some side questions about that.

[00:20:17] Like, what about the spectators? You know, the high rolling spectators, are they still around? Because that, that seems a lot less entertaining for them. Like the last time around, there's no way anybody was letting those games end before it got down to one person. So that was interesting. And, and another aspect of it is to me, a statement on the way societal systems evolve

[00:20:42] and adjust to get people to continue to work and vote against their best interests. So it's like, look, we've made it more attractive and fairer and better for everybody. Um, that's the message of changing the rules and having more votes. Um, yet half the people in the room have already died. Right. So it's still not a great situation. And yeah.

[00:21:11] And Gi-hun's telling them like his friends, like we're, we're a great team. We can help each other. And he's like, we may have to kill each other. Right. Game. Right. And then, um, as Karen pointed out, player seven who voted to stay in season one, it was a big theme that a lot of players, including Gi-hun were worried about their moms. And part of the reason they were there was to try to take care of that mom. So I think they were really pointing up the contrast there of maybe how selfish some of this group is.

[00:21:41] Yeah. Yeah. Uh, I was thinking, uh, you were talking about Karen, how Gi-hun could offer to pay people to get them to vote to go home. And I could almost picture a situation where so many people already want to go home that he would just have to pay some of the ones that are adamant and staying. And it's like a Joe Manchin situation where you have to pay the most like troublesome ones, you know? Yeah. Right. Right. It's not fair.

[00:22:11] Right. Exactly. Exactly. By holding off, they get more. Well, my point sort of talks a little bit about what you're just saying, working together versus against each other. And this is a long one. I just want to warn you guys, but my other points aren't that long. So, but I think the main message of this episode is, is what I was saying before. It's, it's, it's most of our natural instincts to care about each other and want everyone to succeed and be healthy and happy.

[00:22:41] Uh, but then we're put in a system where for some of us to succeed, others have to fail. Then it's human nature to get selfish, to be scared, put our own survival as a higher priority. And so with this show on a small scale, that system is the squid game or for people to win more money and absolve their debts and whatever. Others have to die on a larger scale. It's about a system of government and economics that values profit and greed over caring and acceptance.

[00:23:07] And so it, with a six legs game, we see the mother, Goom Ja and her son, Young Sik and Hyun Joo, the trans woman, Son Yao, the shaman, and Young Mi. And, um, they work together and they help each other to win. But not only that, when they do win all the hundreds of people sitting there are cheering their hearts out, the O's and the X's, right? That's just naturally how they feel. They're so happy.

[00:23:34] But then in the aftermath, when they find out all that, what, there's only that much money recount, you know, and they're all like pissed off. And when, when it, the fact of the limited resources is put right in front of them, then they're not cheering for each other anymore. They want other people to die. The mom is different. Like we are all different.

[00:23:54] And the mom is still operating from that caring perspective, inviting everyone on our team to come visit her and later helping, uh, Joon Hee crying in the bathroom and being really accepting with, um, Hyun Joo, the trans character. Uh, I think she kind of represents a society that's more caring of all of its people.

[00:24:18] Uh, so then they call this vote and yeah, young and sick, the son votes to stay and, and he puts his mother in danger. And then in host starts yelling, are you out of your minds? You still want to keep going after watching all these people die? Who's to say you won't die in the next game? We have to stop. And then, um, the older guy, young day says the money that's left won't change anything for them. So it's a no win situation for most of them.

[00:24:45] I think, you know, you're right, David, some of them are probably just greedy, but I think for a lot of them, they're just desperate because they're in a shitty system outside too, not just in the squid game. Um, and, and, um, so they all vote, they chant one more game, they vote to stay. And it's like you were saying, it's this sense system that forces people to sacrifice. So select few can get most of the rewards. That's what I was saying.

[00:25:11] But what you were saying is it convinces everyone to propagate itself, to vote for it by making them all think they have a chance to be rich and powerful. And they end up voting against their own interests because they're probably going to die. And one of the listeners wrote in and he was insulted that I basically said that anyone who voted for Trump voted against their best interests and that I should keep my politics out of my podcasts.

[00:25:36] And I want to say it was a very respectful and thoughtful letter and even complimentary. And he said he wasn't even going to unsubscribe. And I appreciate him taking the time to write in rather than just hearing something he didn't agree with and unsubscribing. So thank you for that. I don't think you're going to like what I was saying. I don't know. Maybe you will, but I have tended to leave my personal politics out of podcasts mostly because especially with like walking dead, I like that we can all connect over that show.

[00:26:03] Even when we don't agree politically, because it's a post-politics kind of thing for the most part. But Squid Games is rooted right in current politics. And it's about increasing disparity of wealth in the world and the ultra rich who set up systems where we all fight for scraps and they reap the rewards. And Trump is a prime example of that. And Hwang Dong Hyuk, the guy who made this show, agrees with me. He said over the past 10 years, there were a lot of issues.

[00:26:32] This is back in 2021 describing how the show came about. Over the past 10 years, there were a lot of issues. There was a cryptocurrency boom where people around the world, especially young people in Korea, would go all in and invest their money. And there was the rise of IT giants like Facebook and Google. And they're just restructuring our lives. It's innovative, but these IT giants also got very rich. And then Donald Trump became the president of the United States. And I think he kind of resembles one of the VIPs in the Squid Game.

[00:26:59] It's almost like he's running a game show, not a country, like giving people horror. After all these issues happened, I thought it was about time that the show goes out into the world. So from the creator of this show's own mouth, the show was created in part in response to people like Trump. And secondly, I feel less inclined to keep quiet about what I see as increasing injustice as things get worse in the world, especially when the show we're talking about is about it.

[00:27:27] I'm not going to bring it in if it's not even about it, but this really is. And we also put an episode on our Handmaid's Tale podcast asking people not to vote for Trump. And just as one of the many examples of why I think a vote for Trump is against people's interest, climate change, man-made climate change, carbon emissions are causing extreme weather events around the world,

[00:27:52] like the fires that wiped out a bunch of LA, killing people, costing money. You know, that's, I mean, it's an economic issue too. We could, we could invest in clean energy and make, build economy around that and save the planet at the same time. But in April, 2024, Harold Hamm, CEO of Continental Resources, an American oil and natural gas production company,

[00:28:15] organized an event at Trump's Mar-a-Lago resort, inviting oil industry leaders and lobbyists to collectively donate $1 billion, $1 billion to Trump's 2024 campaign. With the expectation that environmental protections would be curtailed. Then on January 20th, inauguration day, Trump signed an executive order to revoke federal mandates promoting electric vehicles as part of a broader strategy to bolster domestic energy production.

[00:28:42] He said, U.S. will produce more fossil fuels than ever, get rid of regulatory constraints, send fossil fuels to other countries, which of course is going to enrich guys that helped pay this $1 billion at the expense of our health, of our planet and all its people. And I'm like, if you vote for that, how are you going to tell me that wasn't a vote against your own interests? Killing the plant, you know, just caught helping to keep all of these climate change disasters happening.

[00:29:12] Bernie Sanders posted a picture of the inauguration with Mark Zuckerberg, Jeff Bezos and Elon Musk standing behind Trump. He said, when I started talking about oligarchy, many people didn't understand what I met. If you don't know what oligarchy is, it's when a small group of people, usually rich, has control of the country. He says, well, that's changed. When the three wealthiest men in America sit behind Trump at his inauguration, everyone understands that the billionaire class now controls our government. We must fight back.

[00:29:38] And these guys, by the way, are all anti-union and Gi-hun and Jung-bae would have benefited from being in a union when they were striking at their factory. So it's just right at the core of the kind of things you're talking about in Squid Game. Last thing, I have a friend who's trans. My son's best friend's dad, who's become a good friend of ours and we all hang out and go to dinner or whatever. My friend has basically been invalidated by Trump, who declared in an executive order that there's only two genders. And he's scared.

[00:30:08] His family's scared. This could put them in a place similar to Hyun-ju that we're watching in the show right now. And you might say, well, that doesn't have anything to do with you. Your interests aren't threatened here. But I care about my friends. I care about good people and don't want to see them ostracized, threatened, discriminated against. I care about freedom of expression for all of us. And I want everyone in the country to, at the very least, have their basic needs met to feel safe here. And that's being taken away.

[00:30:35] So that's what I thought about this episode. So I'd like to chime in on a couple points, if I may. And thank you for saying all that. I appreciate that you did. Because sometimes it's not easy to speak up these days and say what you really think. There can be pushback, although not in this very respectful letter from a listener.

[00:31:02] Or that was at least courteous and respectful pushback, which I think you all respect. Which I'm okay with. Yeah. You know, I said to Karen the other day, seeing that same image of the billionaires behind him, I think it's very clear what happened in this election. Those guys bought the government.

[00:31:23] And the richest, most powerful few men in the country who also control the flow of our communications through social platforms essentially bought control of the government. And you cannot talk about Squid Game without talking about that and these politics. As you said, that's what this show is about. Yeah. So all three of us have done many podcasts on many shows.

[00:31:53] And we're not looking for a way to drag our politics into our podcasts. But if you're going to analyze this show, you can't not do that because that is the subject matter. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it wouldn't be true if we didn't talk about that stuff. No. And so I'd like to follow up on another point, which is Hyunju, the trans character.

[00:32:19] So like you, Jason, I have more than one friend who is trans. One of them is my very closest friend from college, his child, who's college age. And I think that punching down at trans people that is going on in our country right now from the president of the United States, the new president on down,

[00:32:45] trying to victimize a small minority of people who already face difficulties with their life, their identity, and from discrimination. I think it's despicable. Yeah. And I also think it's cynical because it is being done for political gain, certainly not due to any sincerely held beliefs by the- It's to focus rage to keep us distracted. Exactly. It's a squid game. Like if you look at- Yes.

[00:33:13] If you look at Trump and those tech billionaires, they don't care about this. But it's a handy and as it turns out winning issue that they put at the forefront of their campaign. Yeah. And I watched a lot of political advertising leading up to this election, including from other states, because I watch so much sports, including from the Midwest and now from Pennsylvania where I work.

[00:33:37] And hitting the other side as supporting of transgender people and rights is the number one topic I saw in ads. The other was immigration, of course. Mm-hmm. But so I feel like we've made a lot of progress towards basic human rights on this topic over the last number of years. And now it's been essentially erased overnight.

[00:34:05] And I don't feel like my position on this issue is political. This is just a human position of empathy for fellow human beings who have done nothing to harm or threaten us or society. And they're trying to live their own lives in a more fulfilling way. So I really appreciate that this storyline was in the show and that Huang included it in the show. And he has spoken about this publicly and here's what he had to say.

[00:34:34] He said, I saw the people who came, who come to join the games and squid game as people who are usually marginalized or neglected from society and not just financially speaking. Today, unfortunately, in Korean society, the gender minority is a group that is not accepted widely within society, which is why I created the character Hyun Joo as a male to female transgender woman. That's great. Yeah.

[00:35:00] Yeah, I was a little nervous about this character being in there at first, but I shouldn't have been because this episode shows that the creator's heart is in the right place, I think. Yeah, I agree. I love the moment in the episode where it's her turn to do like the hacky sack equivalent, whatever the hacky sack equivalent is of the game. And she asks everybody to turn away, don't look at me.

[00:35:30] And she does it. She does it perfectly. And on the first try and, you know, later explained that, you know, she doesn't want, you know, she's tired of people looking at her and judging her. And it was great. She's such a great character. Yeah. Although she did vote to stay. I was like, what are you doing? Yeah. I'm glad.

[00:35:54] I like, see, when they have a character who's a minority or, you know, seems like a representative of an oppressed group or something like that. I like when they also have flaws. And I mean, I guess you could say that's a flaw, right? Yeah. It just makes them seem like more like real people. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:36:16] She wants to have enough money to get the heck out of there, go to Thailand, buy a little house, get the rest of her transition surgery, live free where there are, you know, where she won't be as ostracized as great. But she also knows that that was a vote to keep people in this situation who don't want to be there that could lose their lives because of it. Yes. That's true. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:36:42] So there was another controversy around this transgender character, which is that Park Sung Hoon, a cisgender man, was hired to play the trans character. So that was controversial, too, in the sense that I think there's a fairly widespread sentiment, not just among trans people, but among any minority that has been historically discriminated against.

[00:37:12] That actor, the acting opportunity should go to someone from that group. My own personal opinion, speaking just for myself, and it's easy for me to say, those experiences are not mine. I don't really have a problem with that, you know, with whoever they hired, because to me, it's acting.

[00:37:35] And the definition of acting is not that you are exactly the person you are representing in a show, but it's that you can do a compelling performance as that person. And I think this is a very compelling performance, but I get the other side. Yeah, I get it. And I understand why they're saying that. So Wang addressed that as well.

[00:37:55] And he said to TV guy.com that while he initially intended to cast a transgender actress, his point of view was that there are close to no actors that are openly trans, let alone openly gay. Because unfortunately, in Korean society currently, the LGBTQ community is rather still marginalized and more neglected, which is heartbreaking.

[00:38:19] So his point was, um, I had trouble filling the role in that way. Mm hmm. Daphne mentioned that earlier too. Yeah, that's what she was saying. Karen, what about you? Okay. So I want to talk about something that I loved about this episode, which I thought that the way that it was filmed was super cool.

[00:38:46] I loved a lot of the cinematography, a lot of the camera angles that were interesting and creative, for example. And this was specifically in the game. So the games are always filmed in a very, very interesting way. Like, you know, after the game, when they come back and they do their talking, talkie, talkie, talkie, it's generally pretty traditional.

[00:39:14] You know, it's, it's the... Still well done though, but yeah. Yeah. Oh yeah, still well done, but not incredibly creative. How can it be? But the games are where they get very, very creative. They get creative with music. And I enjoyed the music very much this episode of the game. And, um, they get creative with like camera angles and, and the way that they play with time.

[00:39:39] Um, so, so it's the, um, the opening, the intro was the first team and it was all about the first team and about them, uh, progressing through the game. And there was a lot that we've already talked about, but it was really fun to watch. A lot of the angles were from the angle of like the stone that had to be knocked over.

[00:40:04] There was one angle where you were looking up as if you were the stone seeing, uh, seeing the people throw the rock at you. Um, fabulous. Um, all the, and then after the, um, uh, the intro and then they had the, the squid game opening and then they went into a music montage. That was my, I, I thought it was just amazing because it was so much, it was actually really fun to watch.

[00:40:33] Um, I love the music. I love the fact that they didn't concentrate on the people who were getting shot. You didn't actually see, I mean, you saw some people getting shot. You did later on in the montage. They started later on the montage you did, but, uh, often it was the blood on the floor that told the story more than seeing the people get shot. It was like, cause the blood says, Oh yeah. A lot more teams got, got mowed down. Um, but the, it was fun watching it.

[00:41:03] It was a very rock video esque. I loved the different points of view. Um, the dice tossing, uh, they made that so interesting. It was really fun to watch. That is the most stressful part to me because I feel like I just be dead. You know, I just couldn't do it. Like the doc G is the easiest because you can just sit there and try. And then hopefully if the thing doesn't fling off or something, you can just bend down and pick it back up and keep trying.

[00:41:31] And then as soon as you win, you can go on, right? Your whole team doesn't have to go after it or whatever, but that marble like, or Jack's like thing would just kill. That would be terrible. It would be terrible. But actually I think the worst would be throwing the stone because your entire team has to march forward, get the stone and march back. And then when they like the mom and the son were whispering things, pretend that's your, uh, dad's mistress or whatever.

[00:41:58] Uh, cause she was the one doing like the marble, the Jack's like thing. She had them all in the back of her hand and pretend the stones are your dad's mistress. I would be afraid to say that cause you don't want to spark chaotic rage in a moment like that. They might just all go flying, you know? Right. And then the same thing with, uh, I think it was Gi-hun who said to his friend Jung-bae, pretend this is the guy who, uh, scammed you or something. Or no, that was the son. Which one was throwing the stone? Was it Gi-hun's friend? Yeah, the mom said that to the son.

[00:42:27] That made more sense. It didn't really, didn't really make sense with the dice. Yeah. But even that, like, I don't know if it would be, it would be a risk to get somebody really mad in a situation like that. I don't know if I perform my best when I'm super pissed off. Maybe. Right. It was funny how they played with time in, uh, in the various, you know, you would see the clock and the clock was counting down.

[00:42:55] Oh my God, they have four seconds left and 10 seconds would go by. But then the clock would still somehow magically have time on it. It's really sports movie tactics, you know? Mm-hmm. And with some montages, you know, they have an opening thing that's a little more focused and drawn out. But then once you get the idea, they do more montages with the right music and angles and everything that you're saying, the clock. And also on British Bake Off shows like that. They know how to really get you invested in it and engaged with it.

[00:43:25] Yeah, that is so true. And I also loved that it was, it was teams that, um, working together. Um, of course teams also got mowed down, but, um, I prefer, uh, the team games rather than, um, what I'm worried they're going to get to, which is it last season. Then they had the marble game and the marble game was, um, they told everyone, Hey, everybody pair up.

[00:43:55] So everyone's like, Hey, I'm going to pair up with my bestie. Yeah. And then they're like, okay, now it's the marble game. And one of you has to die. And that's the worst kind of game, in my opinion, where 50% of people are going to go home, are going to be mowed down. There's no way around it. And you have to figure out who's going to die. That is the worst one.

[00:44:18] And one of the interesting things about squid game is how the structure of each game can explore a different group dynamic. Like this one, six legs, where you're all having to work together as much as possible. Right. And then the one coming up, which you guys have seen, but I haven't yet where, um, they're in this circle and they have to quickly group up into the right number of people. And I'm just really fascinated to see, cause you get, I imagine there's going to be someone who wants to be in a group and the group's going to be like, no, we already have enough.

[00:44:47] Get the fuck out of here. You know, stuff like that. So it's a whole different kind of dynamic. Yeah. I would say though, the marbles are fascinating. The marble game. That's one of the best episodes of TV I've ever seen. That was incredibly compelling. Yeah. Um, I, I was thinking about, as you mentioned earlier, Jason, why is the crowd rooting for their fellow competitors in this game?

[00:45:13] And, um, I think thinking back through all the games, I think it's the first time that the teams haven't been playing against each other. Mm-hmm. So then in tug of war, one team was going to lose and die in each of the marble games. One of the two players was going to lose and die. I mean, the glass bridge, they sort of were working together, but not really when it wasn't a team situation.

[00:45:40] I think this is the first time this situation has come up where you could root for someone else to succeed and it wouldn't kill you. Yeah. Cause they're all, each team is sort of playing against their own selves. They just have to have enough skill, but, um, they are in a more meta sense playing against each other, especially if you're an O and you want people to die. Yeah. Uh, but they just, that's kind of too far removed in this moment.

[00:46:07] So a couple other notes about how this game turned out. Um, so they started with 365 players and they ended it with 255. So, um, more than two thirds of the people actually made it through this game, which I think is the first time we've seen anything like that too. 51 teams survived and only 22 did not.

[00:46:30] Uh, which I thought was surprising also, cause it seemed pretty hard to do that as a group in that amount of time. And that's the thing that's the least believable about it. I was telling them last time that when we did corporate games at Apple, did you ever do that, Karen? And you had to stand on the two skis with five people, uh, in single file on these long skis and everybody was holding ropes. Right. And you had to walk together to race another team. And we had to practice that forever and still couldn't get it right.

[00:47:00] We'd be flopping all over each other and just to get the timing, right? You know? Yeah. Yeah. Two thirds of more than two thirds of them being able to do this successfully. It was, did not seem plausible. Yeah. There's no way. And then it was pointed out on IMDB too, that after the first game with 365 remaining, that would have made 73 teams of five. Which is an odd number. So therefore the last team to play should have been alone, not as a pair.

[00:47:30] So he took a little dramatic license there for the end. Yeah. Yeah. That was a, that was, yeah. But we needed that hilarious moment where they saw the other team get mowed down. Just kidding. That's awful. Sorry. All right. It's your turn, David. Okay. I want to talk about Inho. Yeah. So his motivations and end game remain somewhat mysterious in this episode.

[00:47:59] You know, I think when he first showed up as the swing vote to keep the games going, you know, I thought at least, okay, he's there as a, you know, a plant to keep this thing going and to neutralize Gi-Hoon and, and all this stuff. It's not as simple as that. No. He's not straight rigging the game against Gi-Hoon, but he is making it interesting.

[00:48:26] So I think he is definitely to a degree keeping an eye on Gi-Hoon and steering the games in a certain way and the vote in a certain way, manipulating a little bit. But it's not 100% clear what his end game is. Things that occurred to me is, A, he's getting a thrill himself. He's a past winner, so we know he's really good at this. Maybe he's bored several years in this orchestrator role.

[00:48:55] It's not enough excitement for him. He, when throwing the top, he kind of seemed to make that part interesting on purpose, like almost as if he was failing on purpose a couple times. Like he failed so badly. Did you notice that the times that he failed, he used his right hand? But, so the first two times he used his right hand. Yep. But the time that he succeeded, he uses his left hand.

[00:49:25] Whoa! I totally didn't notice that. So it changes everything. He was trying to fail. But was he trying to outright sabotage the team to defeat and death? Or was he just fucking with them? Or was he making it interesting for himself by taking it down to the wire? Does he want to... I'm still not convinced that we know 100% for sure that he was trying to fail, though. Because when he was smacking his own self in the face and calling himself an idiot, that seemed pretty real.

[00:49:56] Maybe he was acting, but yeah. Yeah, I thought he was acting, but I don't know. Why would he use his non-dominant hand twice and then finally win worse? I'm going to have to go back and check the tape on that. But... Because you also said O-Il-Nam wasn't targeted by the machine in the red light, green light. Remember? Oh, yeah. And then I went back and looked and he totally was. And you proved it. Wow. So, sorry.

[00:50:24] Do any of us remember which hand he shot his brother with? Because I don't. No. It'd be interesting to go back and look at that. Yeah. Check the tape. Yeah. So, here's another question. Is he willing to actually die if they lose? Or is the fix in? O-Il-Nam in season one was not willing to die. He was supposed to die in the marble game and they spirited him out of there. Right.

[00:50:53] Although I don't know how they would have saved him in the tug of war if they hadn't won that. Yeah. But you're right. I think this is a major question. Yes, for sure. And then his whole situation is a question. Does he have a superior as he did when O-Il-Nam was alive? Or is he now the true power behind the games? What about the high rollers? We haven't seen them. But they didn't come in until the end last time. True. Something that's similar. Right. But so what's really going on here?

[00:51:22] And then he makes this impassioned speech in favor of voting to end the games. Yeah. I kind of felt like he was just making a point to Gi-Hun that people won't vote to end the games even though they know they could result in their death. Or is he making a point to himself? Is he just fucking with them? Does he really want to end the games? Genuinely. Genuinely. So there's a lot of questions around him that are the most interesting mysteries I think in this season.

[00:51:52] Yeah. I feel the same way. Last episode I thought I had a beat on him. I thought he was in the game to keep Gi-Hun from throwing a wrench in the works. And maybe to kind of play a little psychological chess with him, you know. And even debate him a little bit about why the games are okay. But this episode just kind of confused the hell out of me. And I'm still interested in him. But to me, he just seemed like he's acting like another player. He's really trying to win.

[00:52:21] And I loved how they had a role going, his team, with all of it, with this inspiring music. And then it got to him and he fucked up and it went. And I thought, I mean, who knows? Like, it's a mystery. But I was convinced when he was upset and then he said, called himself an idiot. And last week, Veronica had said that she thought he hated himself. And I didn't see that. But then I saw this and I'm like, oh, maybe she had something there.

[00:52:50] You should be right. He helped Gi-hun. And then he seemed caring with Jun-hee, you know, the pregnant woman, said to go see a doctor as soon as she gets out of there. We know his wife was pregnant when she died of cirrhosis of the liver. And then, yeah, just imploring everyone to go home. I was like, is he coming around to Gi-hun's way of thinking? Or is this just another gambit of his? I don't know.

[00:53:18] And remember in season one, he had a whole set of feelings about the integrity of the games. And that's why he was offended at the medical harvesting scheme. So there are some feelings in him that aren't as simple as just transactional benefit from these games. Yeah. I hope they have a good answer for a while this is happening. Because I'm really curious.

[00:53:47] And if it's not good, then it'll be like, oh. It's interesting. He used the pseudonym Young-il, which means 01, like his number. And he plays that off saying, oh, it's a coincidence, but it's easy to remember. But I felt like maybe Gi-hun was starting to get a little suspicious finally. Yes. Right? Yeah. He wants to be caught. You think so? Yeah. I do. I do. Okay.

[00:54:14] I'm going to talk about Hyun-ju and Goom-ja, who's the trans woman and the mom. And I think the story of these two is, well, Goom-ja is old-fashioned. And she was the one talking to her son about Hyun-ju last time and maybe being a little bit offensive about it, if I remember right. I can't remember exactly what she said.

[00:54:39] But then this episode, if she had any prejudice, she seemed to overcome it completely and just become more accepting. Like when Hyun-ju wanted everyone to look the other way when she played Jaggi is because her transition wasn't completed and she didn't want people to see. And that got Goom-ja curious and starts asking questions about her operations and everything. And her son's like, mom, you're being nosy.

[00:55:05] And I thought, you know, some might find that offensive, but I just think it's natural to be curious. And also, you know, Hyun-ju can tell that her heart is in the right place. I mean, I don't think it's good to go around asking questions like that. But in the moment, I think they made a connection. And then when she, the mom invited everyone to eat at her place and Hyun-ju seemed to be like, does that include me? And she was like, of course, yes. And then when she voted to stay again and the mom's like, why did you do that?

[00:55:35] And she told her about, you know, being ostracized after coming out as trans. And then her, she lost her friends and her job and her debt piled up and everything. And she said, although I felt liberated, my life got so much harder. And that, I love that because that's another cost of the kind of society that doesn't take care of its marginalized. Marginalized means you're not, you're rarer than everyone else.

[00:56:04] So that means that if you don't take care of the marginalized, your society is actually less free. Because freedom means that if you can only do it when everyone else approves and agrees, then it's not freedom. That's not freedom. Freedom is when you can do and be what you want to be, even when other people don't agree. So anyway, back on the soapbox a little bit there. Sorry. But then the show made a point to have the mom escort her to the women's bathroom. I think that was just to emphasize acceptance that she was coming to.

[00:56:34] And it was a beautiful thing. Thank you. Yeah. Karen, do you have any more? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The player one, I just, I just looked it up and player one did shoot his brother with his left hand. Aha. Hmm. Okay. So.

[00:57:02] But we need to look up, you're sure that he used different hands for the top each time? No. Okay. We need to look that up. Okay. But we'll just say, let's just. First two, first two failed attempts, right hand. Right hand. Especially because he threw it back behind him. Yeah. Remember? And then next time was. It went back behind him. I was like, what are you doing? I could see myself doing that. Okay. Fair.

[00:57:30] I could see myself doing that too. You're not wrong. You're not wrong. Yeah. Yeah. Sorry. Yeah. No, that's, that's all I wanted to add. Um, so David. Yeah. I wanted to touch on this briefly on this name reveal scene where, um, they all, oh, let's get to know each other and give our names.

[00:57:56] Um, so, and again, I think kind of a rehash of a signature moment in season one. Um, but evidently, at least according to these characters, Korean names all seem to have meanings. And, um, I wish ours did. So, uh, I have decided to declare David to mean wise and cop it to mean Avenger. So you can now call me. Our names have meanings.

[00:58:25] What does David mean? Something. It doesn't. Yeah. So, um, I will henceforth be wise. The name David means a pretty good guy. No, I'm just kidding. It means beloved according to a quick Google search. Karen, Karen means terrible person who yells at the manager. Jason means healer, apparently. Oh, that's nice. There you go. Whatever.

[00:58:55] Uh, heal thyself, Jason. Um, what I did find interesting about it in all seriousness is it, it was an expression in a way that parents would invest their children with these weighty names, um, with these hefty meetings, strong tiger and all this stuff. Um, I think it says a lot about the expectations and the weight of them.

[00:59:19] Um, and also the hope sort of passed down through generations in the society that's being depicted of these strong hopes and expectations that parents put on their kids. Yeah. I just thought it was interesting. I've thought this since we started watching the show from the beginning and it seems like there's other shows where there are Korean characters.

[00:59:44] Anyway, that all their names are two syllable names with a dash and, uh, that they put their surname first. We have our surname last. And, um, I actually had a point about this too. De Ho, who's this young ex Marine. He's Kang De Ho. And Kang is his surname. Sebiuk from season one was also Kang.

[01:00:10] No-ul, the guard that we're following. She's Kang No-ul. I don't think any of them are related unless they're going to reveal that. So I think maybe Kang is just a super common Korean name. Chat TPT says Kang is a fairly common Korean surname though. It's not among the very top in terms of prevalence in South Korea. The most common surnames are Kim Lee and Park or Pak, which are held by a significant portion of the population. Kang ranks lower, but it's still widely recognized and used.

[01:00:40] So maybe they're just, it's more common in like Korean shows to have people have the same surname who aren't related. But, uh, the high, as far as the hyphenated given name, like Gi-hun, Jun-ho, In-ho, Jun-hee, uh, not Thanos, but that's just his stage name. Yeah. So I asked chat GPT if all Korean names had hyphens and why, and it said Korean given names

[01:01:07] are often composed of two syllables, each with its own meaning, like you said, and written with a separate Han-ja or Chinese character. So for example, Kim Ji-hoon, Ji, and then it has a character and Hoon and other character are distinct syllables, each contributing to the overall meaning of the name. Uh, I asked what about that name Ji-hoon? And it said, it depends on the characters used, but a typical meaning is wise and accomplished. But when Korean names are transliterated into the Roman alphabet, a hyphen is sometimes used

[01:01:35] to separate the two syllables to help clarify the structure of the name and prevents confusion with other possible readings. But sometimes, uh, the use of a hyphen is a personal or stylistic choice. Um, it said many Koreans choose to omit the hyphen in their Romanized names, writing them as a single word like J-I-H-O-O-N instead of J-I-H-O-O-N. Both forms are correct. Preference often depends on individual family or institutional choices.

[01:02:03] And some modern Korean names now are having a single syllable. CO was, uh, example and min, which of course don't have a hyphen, but, uh, it sounds like it's most common to write Korean names with hyphens when writing the Roman alphabet, but it's not ubiquitous. Oh, and I just remembered where the other Korean name I was thinking of, it was, um, Kim Jong-il.

[01:02:32] But anyway, something different. Karen, do you have any more? Yeah, I have one question for you too. The sharpshooter, um, no, no, you, no, you. I would say no, but no, um, number 11. Yeah. Uh, in her quarter, she's goes to her quarters.

[01:02:53] And so she's the one who's, um, sparing the people who would be harvested for their organs. And so she goes to her quarters and a couple of guys, other guards, um, come in, barge their way in. And, um, they threatened to rape, mutilate, murder her if she keeps interfering with their whole organ harvesting scheme.

[01:03:23] And they cut her cheek. Yeah. Yeah. It was a hard scene to watch. In fact, I think I mostly watched it from behind my hands. I thought it was going to be much, much worse. Um, I was still hard, even, even though it didn't come to that, just seeing two guys bearing down on a woman like that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Even though she was able to fight back pretty well, in the end they pinned her and, um, I'm wondering where that's going to go.

[01:03:51] Um, the next day she put, um, her, uh, you know, put the uniform back on and she was back at it. But, um, I wonder how that's going to play out. Any thoughts? Well, for me, I'm interested in knowing what kind of, she's almost as mysterious to me as in Ho.

[01:04:16] She's the other mysterious character because it seems like they try to get dirt bags in these jobs who, cause I was trying to think, okay, they're not rich, but they're working in this society. That's supposed to be sort of a metaphor for the larger society of wealth disparity. So who, who do these workers represent in that oppressive imbalanced society?

[01:04:41] And I guess it's just anyone who gleefully propagates that system and they're opportunist, Darwinist, cold hearted, uncaring, selfish, you know, and I don't know if she's like that yet, but she does go in and shoot people in red light, green light and seems pretty cold about it, you know, but I guess she. She rationalized that she thought she was putting people who were, um, what did they say desperate or whatever? Helpless people out of their misery. Yeah. Still pretty cold.

[01:05:10] So I, I guess what I'm trying to say, and I could have said in fewer words is I'm not sure how good of a person she is. She seems like she's a better person than most of the other guys, especially since she seems to be trying to put these people out of their misery before they can have their organs harvested or sit there suffering for an hour. And then. In a locked coffin. Popping. So that seems merciful. So maybe she's, is she just a hair better than all of them or a lot better or what, you know, I don't know. I think she's definitely better. Yeah.

[01:05:41] I don't know what, to what degree, uh, she's still participating, but maybe she just feels like she's, you know, keeping. Stuff. Uh, yeah. Yeah. David. Um, as far as where it's going, I don't know. Yeah. Yeah. No, I mean, I, I don't have a speculation as to where that storyline is going. It, we haven't been given a lot of information about her. We haven't.

[01:06:10] I think, um, we don't find anything out next episode or else you guys would know that. It's just hot. But, uh, I would. Maybe we do. Maybe we're just really good. And you're being really clever. That's true. Yeah. Yeah. Just like in Ho. You don't know. Yeah. Switching hands with his top. But, uh, I think, uh, but I speculate that since we're only on the third game and we're

[01:06:37] five, six episodes into a seven episode series that, um, they're going to split this squid game event into two seasons. Right. Cause there's only supposed to be one more season of the show after this. Oh, that's a good point. Half the games will be this season, half the next season. Um, so I guess I'm just bringing that up to say that maybe Noel's story won't, will also continue like that. Yeah.

[01:07:06] Get her whole story this season. That's, that's very interesting. So you're, um, you're speculating that, wait, how many games were played in season one? Six. Got it. And so we're only on the third one, right? So. Yeah. Yeah. I bet you it'll cut in half and not have like a third squid game for the third season. Yeah. That's probably true. That's probably true.

[01:07:29] Um, but I, I, I, I'm not very good usually at speculating and where it's going, but I, but I will say I am interested in her story. She's one of my favorite characters of the season to watch so far. Yeah. Agreed. And, um, I think the most probably predictable thing is that she is good hearted and I feel like I will find that boring if that's the case, but if they do it well, then it'll be good.

[01:08:01] Okay. I do have one more thing I wanted to talk about. Um, the old Gi-hun. So I really liked the conversation in the middle of the night between Gi-hun and his friend Jung-bae, um, because he's been so solemn Gi-hun this whole season, almost smoldering, you know, when he said in the next game, we might have to kill each other. And, and Jung-bae is sitting there next to him and tells him the story of when they were on strike at the factory and Gi-hun was crying to his mom in his sleep.

[01:08:30] And Jung-bae thought, man, look at this poor little wuss. If he wakes up and sees that I'm gone, he'll start crying and won't even be able to go to the bathroom. He says, then I knew I couldn't fucking leave you. And Gi-hun's like, you're so full of shit. No, I swear on your mom. Why did my mom swear on your own? Well, whoever's mom it is, it's true. I got fired and ended up this because like this, cause I stayed. He goes, you always blame me for every bad thing that happened. And then they're, they're blaming each other for their divorces.

[01:08:59] You're the one who got me into horse racing. And then Jung-bae starts laughing. All right. All right. You're, you're finally acting like the song Gi-hun. I know you've been acting like a different person. And as soon as he said that, I was like, he's so right. Like that, I just got a hit of what Gi-hun used to be more like, more expressive. And then Gi-hun still like trying not to, um, not stay offended.

[01:09:26] You know, he's trying to stay like kind of righteous or whatever. And, uh, but he cracks eventually and they both start laughing and it was just such a nice little moment. And I feel like there's probably some story element to it because they panned down and saw In-ho underneath who had overheard all of that. And I almost would have preferred if that hadn't happened, because I like that scene just in and of itself where we get just a little nice moment between two friends and Gi-hun remembers who he used to be kind of thing. Yeah.

[01:09:56] Yeah. Agreed. But I don't understand what significance that would have to In-ho. And I feel like that just adds to the mystery of In-ho, why you would care about that. So do either of you have any notes, David? So again, uh, this was from IMDB series lead actor, Lee Young-jae revealed that the six

[01:10:22] legged pentathlon game took a whopping two weeks to shoot because after each run, a significant amount of dust was kicked up in the game arena. Oh, wow. Not only did they need to wait for it to dissipate to get clear shots for filming, but having everyone on the set when such dust got kicked up meant a lot of them became unwell. Series creator and showrunner Hwang Dong-hyuk recalled that everyone immediately started hacking coughing when he called cut, including himself.

[01:10:51] He was nonetheless proud of the finished sequence. Can you imagine shooting that game for two weeks? Oh. Oh my God. That would be like actually being locked in that place. Nightmare. Um, a couple other notes about the games, just observations. Uh, one is that in series one, the games themselves often provided the means of death, uh, tug of war.

[01:11:18] They would be pulled off the edge of the cliff and then the rope severed the glass bridge. They would fall to their death through the breaking glass squid game itself, which was a you know, single combat to the death. Um, in this edition, uh, all the deaths are shootings so far. Yeah, that's a good point. And, um, which I think is more brutal and less elegant, uh, less clever.

[01:11:48] Maybe argue that red light green light is on the line is on the line there. That's the only one, but that was the same game in both shows. The same game. Yeah. Uh, and there were, you know, shootings in the other show as well. The, um, the Delgado cookies, the marbles. So it wasn't always this way, but we haven't seen a game this season so far in which the game itself was the means of death. Yeah. Yeah. I hope we see that.

[01:12:19] Yeah. I do too. Yeah. Yeah. That's good. That's interesting. And my other related observation, which maybe runs a little in the other direction is that I would say this entire funny to say with a lot of people having died, but the whole thing seems a little kinder, gentler to me. So you got the progressive prize money. There's hasn't been any direct instigation of overnight murders, which was a big thing in season one.

[01:12:49] Um, and I would say overall, the group of characters is a little softer. I mean, there were some really tough people, including career criminals the first time around. And, and this time like, eh, Thanos tries to intimidate people, but he's not that tough. I mean, in hope just put him down anyway. So, yeah. But, but also the goofy, the goofy tone in music also adds to what you're saying that it seems softer.

[01:13:15] And also, and maybe again, this is coming, but we haven't really seen people betray each other to the same level so far. Like so far, the teams have pretty much stayed together and it might be coming. What? The voting. Yeah. Yeah. A little bit here and there, but it's not at the same level so far. So I, I think things are going to get more vicious. Um, but so far they've been playing it a little soft.

[01:13:40] I, I totally agree with you, except I would say that people voting to stay when half the people just want to go home and don't want to die does add a darkness. And it doesn't make me feel vicious, I guess, but it's fucking dark. But otherwise I feel like, yeah, this season feels like a bit lighter. It is. And people begging, like, please make this stop. Please make this stop. We have the ability to make this stop.

[01:14:08] Look, and you're going to get $54,000 or. Yeah. You know, I think the other reason it's less intense is they really did not take the time before the games this year to establish the other characters. Um, and we don't really know. We haven't heard a lot of backstory. It's just kind of this general, oh, we have debts. Um, but there's not a lot of detail there to latch on to emotionally.

[01:14:37] Yeah. We didn't see any flashbacks or anything. Yeah. But I'm telling, I wish I had the clip that I played last time when I had a whole point about goofiness, because when the starting gun goes off for six lays, it's like a six legs game. It's like, or something like that. It's like, all right. Yeah. Like carnival or something. Um, yeah, but I, yeah, I agree with just about everything you just said. So I just had a couple notes.

[01:15:06] This Sonia character, man, she's kind of a mess. Uh, her team's chugging along great, but when it's her turn with the top, she starts freaking out and fumbling and Hyunju slaps her across the face and that focuses her. And I'm not exactly sure what the point of her is. I, she's an interesting character, but she's a bit one note, but, um, I wonder what it made

[01:15:33] me think of is when I used to work for a literary agent who mostly had self-help books that she would represent and, uh, you know, make deals with her self-help authors and publishers and things like that. And, um, the self-help authors, like the guy who wrote the book about depression, he would call and leave a message saying like, uh, you, you haven't sent my, uh, check yet.

[01:16:02] And I'm just wondering if you forgot about me and he just sounded really depressed. Right. And then the one that was about anxious, how, how are my singles, you know, broke about anxious. And let me say, I think, um, self-help is good. I think, um, self-improvement, self-growth, all of that. I've done plenty of it myself, therapy, but I also think that a lot of times people who are into that kind of stuff are into it because they needed it. Right.

[01:16:26] They had problems that they wanted to solve for themselves and they got so into it. And I think maybe she's kind of like that. She turned to all this shamanism because she had, uh, some emotional problems or something. And now we're seeing those emotional problems overcome anything that the shamanism did to help her or something like that. I don't know. That's my read on it. Yeah. She's annoying. I like that when the mom called her a skank.

[01:16:57] Yeah, that's true. Uh, and then my last, uh, note is that maybe Gihun should not have told anyone, even on his own team, that the prize money goes up if they kill each other. No reason to make people realize that to have it on their minds. I mean, um, and then in ho says, well, even if that were true, people wouldn't do that. But he damn well knows they would.

[01:17:24] So yeah, maybe this whole thing is just an act on his part. Yeah. Um, I thought that when the guards said, the guard said something like, uh, we encourage you to think of creative ways to make this happen. Do you remember what was the line exactly? Oh, I don't, I didn't catch that, but they were trying to prompt them to figure it out. Yeah.

[01:17:50] They, when people were complaining like, oh, that I, so many people died. That's the only, they were looking at what was dropping into the piggy bank and they're like, that's it. It's only, you know, X amount of, uh, you know, per person. That's ridiculous. And the guard said, well, we encourage you to think of some creative ways to make that change or something like that. Right. And so I was like, oh, he's encouraging them to kill each other at night. I don't know.

[01:18:20] So I feel like, I feel like that's maybe what he was, what Ji-hun was picking up on. Maybe not. Okay. And just trying to protect his team in case the other players realize what the. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:19:04] Okay. We're back. It's time for some listener feedback. Karen, want to go first? Sure. This is from Lisa Spur, who says, anyone think that Ji-hun will end up being the new front man? Oh God. Any possibility of that? Great note. That didn't even occur to me. You've blown my mind. Yeah. I did not think of that. I mean, that would be a really interesting development for sure.

[01:19:30] I think most of us would not want to see it, but on the level of just, if they could make it believable, it would at least be interesting. Yeah. Yeah. David? Becky Anderson says, this was intense. I feel like player number one's team went last. So if they failed, no one would see them remove him safely. Hmm. I really am getting emotionally attached to some of the characters, and that only adds to the tension when the games are played.

[01:20:00] It's interesting to see certain players change their minds and the consequences they'll face because of that. The boat captain is shady as fuck. Lastly, that scene with Noel was harsh and very hard to watch. I don't feel like I should be rooting for her because she's willingly killing these game players, but I hope she gets revenge for that assault. I want to chime in and say, I agree about the boat captain. I think the boat captain is a double agent.

[01:20:30] Yeah, I think so. Yeah. Because I think it was last episode when that guy Choi was talking to him and say, who leaked this information? And I think they were telegraphing that it was probably him. Catherine Peters says, I loved all the teamwork during the games, but it made the survivors grumbling about too many people surviving more disappointing. The vote wasn't surprising considering $50,000 wouldn't cover much debt, but I wonder how they'll keep voting to stay once the numbers get much smaller. Yeah, me too.

[01:20:59] I'm curious about that when they could clearly go home and be able to pay their debts and have plenty more, but they're still voting to stay. I feel like that's going to happen. The mother and son continue to be two of my favorites. Her awesome speech got not only herself, but two others into the bathroom. And the son's over-the-top expressions gave some much needed laughs in between executions. Same with Thanos dancing. I'm getting more worried about a baby being born in the games. Oh, yeah. I know. Yeah.

[01:21:29] I can't imagine how Kim Joon-hee expects both of them to survive. She didn't look good at all at the end of this episode. Looking forward to seeing the chaos of mingle. Me too. Oh, God. Oh, God. Oh, God. Jennifer McGinley writes, this is my most favorite game of all the squid games. I'd have been so dead, I wouldn't even have tried. And I wouldn't have peed myself either. I have actually shat.

[01:21:59] Was quite thrilling watching it. Previous episode two. It was only on my second watch that I noticed at the vote when Gi-Hung began to speak to the crowd and player number one cut him off and took over pretty soon after he started. It was very clever. The content of player one speech was designed to make folks vote to vote zero. What is zero again? Stay? O and X. O is stay, yeah.

[01:22:28] O is stay. To vote stay. Whilst appearing to be supporting the X's to leave. Did y'all catch that too? No, I didn't. I didn't, but now I want to go back and read it. Yeah, exactly. What would have happened if Gi-Hung's group lost the game? How would they all have been gunned down whilst leaving player one unharmed? Yeah, good question. I thought the exact same thing in tug of war last time.

[01:22:56] How could player one safety have been ensured in the event of them losing? Yeah, that's, yeah. I don't get it. Oh, I totally get it. There's two more teams. They gun the other team completely down and they gun everybody except him down on his team. But the tug of war. No, tug of war, yeah, but I'm talking about on this one. Yeah, this one for sure. Everybody was out of the room.

[01:23:19] I mean, the only problem would be if the other team won and then Inho's team lost because then they'd have to shoot everyone but Inho and the other team would see. Why is that one guy just staying in there? Right. But tug of war, I was scratching my head and like, boy, they must have. I think it's a little bit of a. I mean, they could shoot everybody else but him and he could fall down with the rest. That's true. Yeah. Thank you. All right, we got two calls. Here is Sam. Hi, it's Sam.

[01:23:50] Episode five. Even on the rewatch, that opening scene gets my nerves fried every time. It's so well done and so freaking stressful. Just, I mean, Hyun Joo, I adore her. I want to be on her team. Slaps and all. I mean, hey, she understood the mission and she accomplished it. It was amazing. I love how everyone was cheering for their team. There's hope. It was just such a great opening.

[01:24:20] Young Sheik's face during the six-legged walks, especially towards the end, really cracked me up. Either the actor or the director made a very purposeful choice to have his face just be like mouth gaping wide open. It's so dramatic and cartoonish. I even attached some screenshots for you guys just because both times I've watched this episode, it grabbed my attention.

[01:24:47] It kind of took me a little bit out of the show, but I'm guessing they were just trying to add in some humor in there. Speaking of Young Sheik and his mom, oh, I love their dynamics so much. It reminds me so much of my own family. So, of course, I'm endeared to them. And, you know, it's squid games. So, most likely having a mother and her son in it is going to break our hearts. So, I guess we're in it for the long run, aren't we, guys?

[01:25:16] The voting, again, it just continues to hurt my feelings. I think it's just a little too close to our American elections and it's just so stressful. Like, I felt so bad for poor young me who was crying and begging to go home during that scene. I mean, I would have cracked if I was voting to stay. I mean, she was so heartbreaking. And it was just like Junhee.

[01:25:40] Like, it reminds me that they all came to play at first not realizing it was going to be life and death. And then after that, it didn't matter. If you wanted to vote to go home, all these other idiots or desperate people are voting to stay and are gambling not just with their own lives but with yours too. Like, it's such a nightmare. Like, I don't know why but this seems worse than in season one. Yeah.

[01:26:08] Because it's just like, hey, I don't think Junhee or Youngmi wanted to stay at all. I could be wrong. I'd have to go back and take a look at their patches. No. But like, some of these people are still stuck there and they've been wanting to go home since they found out how bad it was. And it's just so sad. And speaking of sad, poor Jun. That dude is so sad after the voting. He couldn't even eat afterwards.

[01:26:36] He was so traumatized. And I get it. Like, even when these people know how bad it is and could leave with some money, they're still choosing to stay. One more game. It just freaks of desperation. And I can't imagine what that's like for him. Of these scenarios he's thought up in his head, why he's re-traumatizing himself. It's all kind of not for what he hoped it would be.

[01:27:03] I did appreciate how Inho stood up for his boyfriend during the voting, though. Little confused on what that was supposed to be. But like, okay, I guess he's playing this role. Just like some quick thoughts. I really liked how Jungbae was so sweet with Junhee saying, you know, yeah, you did a good job. And I remember Jungbae was a dad. So I was like, oh, that's so sweet. Bathroom scene. Little odd. The ones with the guys.

[01:27:28] Like, I thought guys don't make eye contact with each other in the men's room, let alone talk and argue. But I guess it's a suspension of disbelief. No, that's a huge misconception. Maybe it was the only place they could have some privacy. Also, speaking of the bathrooms, are there showers in the players' bathrooms? Like, there's toilets and sinks, and I guess you could make do with those. But between the blood and the sweat and probably urine and feces, I would want to shower so bad.

[01:27:56] So how do you guys think the next episode ends? The part where she needed to go to the bathroom, that really got me because I can't last all night. I know that's TMI, but... That is a little TMI, pal. I mean, I gotta go. I can't. That's cruel. Huh? That's as cruel as anything in the squid game. Yes. Making him stay all night. It is on par with getting gunned down. Yeah. I mean, it's a little less.

[01:28:29] She makes a good point about Gi-hun, which is he came here to try to track his military force to the island with the tracker in his tooth. So that didn't work. No. But now he's trying... He didn't think he was going to have to do this. Right. Now he's trying to play the game and save these people, and they don't want to be saved. The majority of them. Yeah, half of them don't. Yeah. Yeah. They're working against their own interests. So he must not be feeling great about the whole thing.

[01:28:57] Well, and maybe that's part of the point. Maybe the point is to prove that people are terrible. And I mean, I'm worried that that's what they're heading towards.

[01:29:13] See, I mean, I think some of the people are terrible, but I mean, I would hate for that to just be the message because I think the deeper message is that the system is terrible and they're all stuck in this no-win situation. You know what I mean? Yeah. I do. I do. In a better system, their better angels would come out. I guess that's what I'm saying. Yeah. Some of them. We've been podcasting a long time, pal.

[01:29:43] We've had this talk before. Oh, really? Oh, I don't even remember. Yeah, The Walking Dead. Yeah? Like what? That's a lot. Yeah. Do you remember specifically? About people's better angels. Better angels. In fact, there was an episode called Better Angels in The Walking Dead. Wasn't there? I think that was the one where, well, can we spoil Walking Dead? I think we can. Shane died. I think that was the one where Shane died. Damn you. Shane dies.

[01:30:12] If those zombies had a more equitable system of government, none of this would have happened. That's right. They're hungry. All right. We got one more call from Jenny Ryan. Hello, Squid Game friends. I just wanted to say a couple of things. Oh, it's Jenny here from Saskatoon. Just a couple of things. First of all, you were wondering about the front man and the organ donations.

[01:30:40] I believe in season one, he admitted he knew about it. He was like, this is your deal. I don't care what you guys do. Just don't mess up the games. So he was aware of it happening on the side, but it wasn't like a sanctioned thing, I seem to recall. And the other thing I wanted to say was, I wonder about the connection between the names of both 001s.

[01:31:11] Oh, Il Nam was the first guy. And the front man is claiming his name is Oh Young Il. And that's not his name, but that's his name in the game. And I want to know why. I wish I was Korean and I knew what those names meant. Or that someone could tell me. I mean, I guess I could look it up, but maybe someone else can. I'm lazy. I also like speculating. And the third thing.

[01:31:40] Before she goes on, I didn't look it up either because I hadn't listened to this message yet. But I think he says his name means 01. I think that's just his whatever given name he chose for himself. Il Young or whatever it is. Yeah. Means 01. Yeah. What I have to say is I'm finding this season there are too many characters to follow. And it's frustrating because I know that I want more people to die.

[01:32:04] But like it's really hard to care about them because there's so many of them. You know what I mean? Okay. That's it. Great work, everyone. Bye. I think her son's probably sleeping, which is why she's whispering. I loved it. It's almost ASMR, huh? Yeah. Yeah. What did she just say at the end there, damn it? I was going to answer it. Now I forgot.

[01:32:33] We got sidetracked by her voice. By her voice. Yes. That's all. Damn it. Too many characters. I'm not finding that. I'm able to appreciate all the characters, as many as there are. What about you guys? Hang in there for another episode or two, Jen. There will be fewer characters. Spoilers. Oh, yeah. That's a real spoiler.

[01:33:02] People are going to die in Squid Game. I'm kidding. I'm kidding. That's the least. Dun, dun, dun. I do sort of wonder if this will come down to two people again. I feel like, I hope it doesn't, honestly. But I guess we'll see. Oh, God. I hope it doesn't, too. I really, I mean, come on, people. Yeah. You have enough.

[01:33:39] All right. That is our show. Thanks so much for listening, everybody. Thank you, David and Karen. That was a pleasure. Thank you. It was great. Next up, Squid Game Season 2, Episode 60X. If you want to write in or send us a voice message about it, you can find all our contact information at podcastica.com. And while you're there, be sure to check out our other shows. Like another show. Oh, yeah.

[01:34:08] This is one that I was thinking of that's got an oppressiveness to it and the haves and the have-nots and things like that. But it's Silo, which is this Apple TV plus dystopian mystery sci-fi thing that Veronica and Amelie and I podcasted on. We just did it over two episodes. So we did half the season in one episode and then we're about to do half in the next episode. And that's on the cast of us. So I recommend that show. It's pretty good. Season one.

[01:34:38] We're on, season two just came out. Yeah. Oh, so you got all the way through season two on the pod. Gotcha. Yeah. We're about to. Pretty good show. Yeah. Yeah, pretty good. Are you, is there, is there a podcast, a podcastica podcast on severance? No, we, there were a bunch of podcastica hosts interested in that and we tried to get it going, but people just kept having scheduling things and we couldn't get it off the ground.

[01:35:06] So we didn't do it. We should have like severed our personalities and had our other halves do it or something. I was going to say, when you're severed for nine hours a day, it's hard to find the time. It's hard. Nine hours. But, but I love that show. I really liked season one and I haven't started watching season two yet, but I fully intend to. I need to watch like a YouTube recap of the first season or something to remind me. My innie loves it. My, my Audi just thinks they're a bunch of whiners. That's right. Yeah.

[01:35:37] Yeah. We decided to do a full rewatch of season one because we were going to start season two and then it's like, we do not remember enough detail about that. There was a lot of stuff going on in that and we were glad we did. We both enjoyed it and remembered a ton of stuff that we hadn't. Yeah. Yeah. I wish I'd done that, but I don't want to have to wait that long before I start watching season two. So I'll probably just watch a recap. It's so good. Yeah.

[01:36:07] It's so good. I have a big crush on the, the woman. I forgot her name. Hell yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. She's great. Hell yeah. All right. That is our show. Thanks for listening. One more game. All right. One more game. Look at her.