20: "Friend or Foe" (Squid Game S2E7)

[00:00:00] Hmm? Ah! Hmm. Podcastica!

[00:00:05] Everybody, welcome to the podcast. I'm Jason.

[00:00:53] And I'm Daphne. And I'm Veronica. In this episode, we're covering Squid Game Season 2, Episode 7, Friend or Foe, the Season 2 finale, which really is... This is just one big season and we're in the middle of it, right? Yeah. Yes. Welcome back, Daphne. Glad to have you back on. Glad to be part of this one.

[00:01:16] I want to mention that I checked and it looks like Squid Game Cast is our most popular podcast this month, even more than The Walking Dead rewatch. Wow. So that's really cool. And I just want to thank everybody who listened. If you're already a Podcastica fan or if you just found us here. If you just found us here and you liked what you heard, then I hope you'll go and check out some of our other stuff if you haven't already. We do the same kind of in-depth coverage.

[00:01:45] We have a bunch of other shows. A few coming up are Yellow Jackets, The Last of Us, The White Lotus, Handmaid's Tale in the Spring, and or Cobra Kai. Those are, these are all shows that we just love. How many good shows. And we also do podcasts on Stranger Things from House of the Dragon, Rings of Power, The Bear, Wheel of Time, a whole bunch of different shows. I can't even name them all, but yeah, just go to podcast.com if you're interested in any of that.

[00:02:16] You can just go there and click podcast and you'll see all the shows that we cover. So the finale, Squid Game Season 2, Episode 7, Friend or Foe. Daphne, would you like to read the plot summary? Of course. Captain Park of Junho's team is revealed to be a double agent, having sabotaged their drone and kills its pilot.

[00:02:40] Following the bathroom brawl, players realize they can kill others to raise the prize pool and weaken the opposing voters. Gihan predicts there will be an attack that night by players who want to continue the game, but convinces a small group of ex-players to avoid attacking, arguing that the game's creators are the true enemies.

[00:03:01] During the anticipated massacre, Gihan's group stays hidden as the rest of the group receives heavy losses, and they emerge only once soldiers arrive. Gihan's group baits the soldiers, killing all but one and taking their firearms. They start a rebellion, forcing the surviving soldier at gunpoint to lead them to the control room. However, more soldiers open fire en route, and the rebellion starts to falter when the group runs out of ammunition.

[00:03:31] Daiho, tasked with retrieving more ammo, suffers a combat stress reaction and is unable to return. Player 001 betrays the group by killing two players and faking his death, while other surrendering players are executed. Gihan and Zhangbei are captured. Inho, now masked as the front man, execute Zhangbei in front of a horrified Gihan.

[00:03:59] Man, just hearing you read that, it's like, what a fucked up series of events. And David said Karen didn't even want to come on for this one because she watched the episode. She like barely even watched it. She kept having to look away. What'd you think of it? Good finale? I'm wishing that they hadn't split this and had just given us one long season, whatever is left.

[00:04:24] I mean, we don't really know how many episodes are left after this, but I found myself wanting more immediately, which is not a surprise. I'm given this series and I really like it. I just felt like the music in this episode. I mean, the music in this series as a whole has been kind of interesting.

[00:04:49] But in this episode, I got these Kill Bill vibes and then there were moments that kind of took me out of it just a little bit. Because I, I don't know. The music? Yeah, I feel like the music has been a hit the whole time, but the music itself is the only thing that kind of pulled me out this time. I wasn't. I feel like the music's been weird off season. Yeah. I wouldn't have noticed it, but Jason put it out. The goofiness. Yeah. But I didn't feel that way this time.

[00:05:18] In fact, the only music I remember is when Gi-hun was sort of rallying everybody to go get the real bad guys. And they played a guitar version of what they usually play on that like flute or whatever. It was like... Yeah. Rock and roll. And I loved that. And then a couple other little cool like Squid Game-y type whoop, whoop, whoop, whoop kind of things that I always loved. But I didn't, I didn't notice any, anything wrong with it this time.

[00:05:47] I feel like it got very spy movie as they were like doing the action shots. Like I did notice that and it felt... A bit much. Not inconsistent with some of the rest of it, but I don't know. They've kind of been all over the place this season anyways. So maybe it does fit with just chaos music choices, but it was bizarre. I mean, it can feel like a celebration almost in a way that's like, no, this should not be celebrated. This is horrible.

[00:06:15] At one point, the music reminded me of like some weird take on the Avengers and it was when they were starting to revolt. I was kind of like, is this the same music that they played when everyone came back from the snap? Or have they flipped it around and restructured it? I don't know, but it gave me those vibes. But the rest of it reminded me of Kill Bill.

[00:06:42] A lot of like Kill Bill, Tarantino type music. And I wasn't expecting that in this episode. What about as an episode in itself? Do you think it was a good one? Yeah, I thought it was great. I actually enjoyed this season, I think much more than anyone else. Hmm. I've been totally down with it the whole time. I'm okay with it being different. I've liked this season as a whole.

[00:07:09] I feel like this was a good mid-season finale, maybe. But yeah, it just left too many things open for me to feel like it was a finale. And I do appreciate that we're getting the next season in, what is it, June? Yeah. They're not making us wait as long. So I guess that makes me feel slightly more forgiving. But I don't know. I think this episode...

[00:07:36] I like so much of this show because of the like deeper commentary on things. And this episode was just so action packed that there was a bit less of that. So I think maybe it wasn't like my top episode for this season, but I still enjoyed it. And I'm definitely excited for more, which I think is a good place to be in. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I don't mind cliffhangers at all, even between shows that have a year in between.

[00:08:05] So for me, this is actually great because, hey, they announced that we're getting the next part, which again, feels like season two, part two to me, but it's season three in June. So that's like five more months. That's great. And so I'm totally fine with that aspect of it. I thought it was great. It was so cool to finally see Gi-Hoon and others take the fight to the powers that be. So that's something really new for the show.

[00:08:30] And I found social commentary in it, and I'll get into that in my points. It really made me think about polarization a lot. So I thought on all level, I mean, maybe they could have tightened it up a little bit because the fighting seemed to go on a little bit longer than maybe it needed to. But other than that, I thought it was great.

[00:08:52] Yeah, I kind of agree with the whole fighting going on a little bit too long, but I did enjoy seeing that staircase in a very different way. Firefight and the MC Escher thing. Yeah, it was definitely a different view from what we're used to. So I enjoyed it. So my fucked up moment of the week is Min-Soo crying in his bunk while Nam-Gyu brutally stabbed Se-Mi to death. Oh, man. That was pretty bad.

[00:09:22] I mean, I feel like that was my top one too. It was so just like sick in that moment. Coward. But I guess to choose something different. Honestly, for me, it was just, and I'll get more into this when we talk about it, but just, I feel like Gi-Hoon lost his way and got all his friends killed. And to me, that was pretty fucked up. Like, I think he lost himself a bit.

[00:09:48] Yeah, I think that's going to be a fun, or a fun, interesting talk when we get to your part. What about you, Daphne? Mine is kind of related to Veronica's. Honestly, it was Gi-Hoon sacrificing basically most of Group X for his plan, for his goal. Um, because there, there's one point in there where he actually is talking about, you know, this is what we need to do to get out of here.

[00:10:16] This is, you know, our plan, my plan. It will ruin our entire plan. If, when he's taught, when Gi-Hoon is talking about why they can't fight back and help the others. And he said, because if we fight with them and some of us end up dead or injured, it will ruin our entire plan. That right there, our plan. It's, this is his plan.

[00:10:45] This isn't the plan of everyone else. This is his plan is to take it to the creator of the game. Um, so for me, the moment that he said those words, and then they were all hiding under the beds and watching the other people die. That was the fucked up moment of the week. Do you, Veronica, would you rather wait or do you mind if we just talk out that choice right now? I'm fine if we just go ahead and talk it out. Yeah. Okay.

[00:11:14] I'll just say kind of, I don't think I have a whole lot to say on it, but I was thinking about it and, um, it did seem fucked up to me to hide your best guys. When you know your people are going to be attacked and they're going to be at a disadvantage. Uh, and then, and many of them die. So you can carry out your plan as Daphne just said, trying to look at it from the other side.

[00:11:39] And Gihun said, you know, this is going to be a sacrifice, but it will be more of a sacrifice if we don't do it or something like that. And I think it'll be worth it from his point of view. He also said it will be more of a sacrifice if we don't do it. So he was looking at it through which one is going to save the most people. And he, I think from his point of view, it's likely that if they just keep going with the games, they're all going to die.

[00:12:05] And he, so from his point of view, if they do this, there's at least a chance to save some of the people here and thousands of people in future games that won't happen because they're doing this. So I think when you look at it, at least for me, when I look at it from that point of view, I can kind of see it. But as you guys are talking, I'm like, you know, though, what he should have done is gotten buy in from everybody else, you know, and maybe he knew he could, he couldn't or something.

[00:12:30] But just to sort of put them through his plan without telling them about it makes it feel more fucked up. But I think ultimately, yeah, either they're all going to die here at the squid game, except for maybe one or two people, or they're going to take the fight to the powers that be and save some people here and more people in the future.

[00:12:52] I mean, in theory, had Inho not been integrated into Giang's group, this might have worked. Like it could have worked. Yeah, if Deho hadn't frozen and Inho hadn't turned on them, maybe it could work. It was a huge risk, though. I'll say that. Like, it's a huge risk, but it's better than doing nothing means death. But it didn't mean death.

[00:13:19] They were very close to being able to vote their way out. Oh, yeah, that's true. And if he had said, let's all group together and not attack, but let's defend each other and make it through the night. For me, like I hear what you're saying, Jason. I don't think it's this clear like he went evil, like he still had a good intention.

[00:13:40] But to me, he went from trying to save everyone to somewhat more into the revenge territory. And I think he sort of lost a bit of himself, especially the moment where it was already on his face that he was hatching this plan. He already knew what was going to happen after the bathroom fight. And they had the entire group of exes all gathered together.

[00:14:07] But he sat silently until it was the smaller group to say they're going to even say that they're going to attack us tonight, to even give people a heads up. And it seems stupid that people wouldn't have assumed that was going to happen. But a lot of people went and got in bed and died because they weren't even prepared to protect themselves. And I think that for me is what bothered me. The hiding as a girl was stabbed right in front of him.

[00:14:34] Like, yeah, it didn't feel true to who he was. It felt like he got really perseverant on revenge. And I don't think him wanting to take the whole thing down, like that's not wrong and that's not pure revenge. I'm not saying that. But he just seemed like too caught up in the idea of take it all down as opposed to like save people and do this another way.

[00:14:56] I agree with you, especially what you said about, well, they could have, you know, just tried to kill more O's and then voted to go home or defend themselves. That's what you actually said. But the dialogue is when In-Ho says, are you suggesting that we make a small sacrifice for the greater good? And Gi-Hoon says, if we miss this opportunity, the sacrifice will be even greater. Even if it takes a sacrifice, we must put an end to this game now.

[00:15:24] So I don't think that he's so caught up in his revenge that he's not thinking straight. I think he's very much thinking, I want to save the most people possible and this is how we do it. Like, you know, whether or not you agree with that, because he's deciding for these people to put their lives in danger without their consent. So I think it's totally debatable. And without the information to know, like they could have been gunned down immediately.

[00:15:49] Like it may, it shouldn't have even taken as long given we know how many guards are in that place. Like they probably shouldn't have even lasted as long as they did. And I'm not even sure, like at one point In-Ho when he radios to his people, he says, let's wrap this up. It almost felt like he was saying, yeah, like, okay, now we need to really get serious here. Like maybe they were just letting it happen as far as it went or something.

[00:16:13] Well, two, Ki-hun knew as soon as he saw the fork in their lunch, he knew even before the bathroom incident that this was what was going to happen. This isn't his first rodeo, as we know. And he also knows what went down last time.

[00:16:35] So I feel like he could have prepared them to fight back better than what they were before, like last time. Or maybe, I don't know if this is a great idea, but it's another option. He could have said, let's do both. Let's send a bunch of our people over to attack first. And we'll have some people hold back and hide for when the soldiers come in. So at least maybe the exes would have fared a little better or something.

[00:17:02] If he would have just warned the other exes that this was coming, I think I could have forgiven him a bit more. But that he let some elderly people go to bed alone and didn't even say, hey, this is really highly likely that they're going to try to come kill you. I think that's where it bothered me and where I felt that he lost some of his humanity a bit. It's a bit of a trolley problem kind of thing. Yeah. You know, a bit.

[00:17:28] Jun-hee did save Myungi because she told him to hide. I was surprised at that. Because he wasn't part of that. I was not surprised at all. You think she still kind of had a thing for him this whole time or a soft spot for him? He's the father of her child. And I don't think... I thought she detested him. Because before in the game, she's like, leave me alone, you know? Like, I don't...

[00:17:57] I can't remember if she ever did anything that put him in danger, though. I don't think so. She... I think it's a very complicated relationship. I don't think he's a bad person. I think he's made some really dumb choices. And I do think he genuinely cares about her. I think she cares for him in the fact that he... They once were together and he is the father of her child.

[00:18:27] Whether it goes beyond that, I don't know. The part of that that I'm not so sure about is that he cares about her. Maybe he does now that they've had some time together and they've helped each other. But before this, he knocked her up and then he ignored her for six months and he was pissed off that she didn't have an abortion. Well, that's on him. Yeah, but I'm just saying, does that mean he cares about her?

[00:18:49] And I don't know if he was so angry that she didn't have an abortion so much as she had told him that's what was happening and he wasn't expecting... He didn't know he was still having a baby. And part of that is definitely his fault because he did not answer her phone calls. Yeah. But I didn't see it as he was, like, angry at her for not doing it, but... I'm not saying that he's a saint. I'm just saying that it's complicated, but I do think he cares about her. I do think she cares about him.

[00:19:18] They probably should not be together. Just saying. To me, it's him. It's not. She's fine. Yeah. He's the one who's not been great. Yeah, he's done... As far as we've seen. He's done some things, but you know what? He just killed someone with a fork to the chin. So... Like I said in a previous episode, you know, my own father just abandoned my mom.

[00:19:46] And so I probably have a bit of a bias against guys like that. Yeah. All right. Let's get into some points. Which one of you wants to go first? Who, who, who? Well, we've already talked a lot about my point. My first point was going to be, you know, Gihan's flip to... Yeah. I gotta do something that might not be comfortable, but I've gotta do it.

[00:20:14] And that's basically his decision to sacrifice people on Team Axe in favor of moving his plan forward, which is the greater good to get this shut down. That didn't feel good. As much as I'm trying to see both sides of it, it was like, oh, dude, that's really fucked up. And then to see it actually happen where they're hiding under the beds as people get slaughtered. It's like, that doesn't feel so heroic.

[00:20:43] After all the episodes we just saw. Yeah. But I gotta keep in mind, he's trying to save more people. But whatever. But you know what? A lot of people start out with the best of intentions and end up going the wrong way. Down the road to hell. I'm watching... When I re-watched this episode, I watched it with the idea in mind that...

[00:21:08] I wanted to see if there were other little things that I could see in his character in this episode. And I wanted to see if there were things that stuck out as being him shifting away from the pure of heart idea of saving the world or saving people from this game or revenge.

[00:21:35] And I do think that given what we saw at the end of this episode, the revenge thing is probably going to kick more into high gear if he can even get mentally past what he has witnessed. Which I'm not sure. And maybe even more... I think you're right. I think it could definitely shift more into that revenge.

[00:21:59] But I guess maybe to give him the benefit of the doubt prior to this, maybe it's that I think he got a little too mission-focused. Maybe it wasn't so much revenge. It did feel very much like it was less about getting the people that were in there right then out, which had felt like when he first got in there, okay, this is what I can do while I'm here is save as many people as possible.

[00:22:26] When he first got there, he was there to shut the whole thing down. Right, right, right. But once he realized he's in the game and his crew isn't coming, I think it became a bit more like, let me get as many people out as I can. In this episode, it felt like he switched very much from that to take it down at all costs. And I guess I see the whole train track thing, but this wasn't a sure thing.

[00:22:54] Him switching to the attack, it was a pretty low probability of success. And there was one moment where he and... I've forgotten everyone's names because it's been a few weeks. 001 is Inho, right? Inho is talking to him and saying, shouldn't we try to fight back or defend ourselves? And he's basically like, no, that's the stupidest idea ever.

[00:23:21] And I'm like, okay, but your idea is pretty far-fetched and low chance of success too. I think that's what bothered me is that he just seemed to get so focused in on his idea and this is the only way to do it and lost sight of trying to... I feel like he could have kind of done both, right? Or at least less carnage in the middle.

[00:23:44] I also think that all of this since the arrival of Inho has come about because of Inho's subtle influence throughout the past few episodes. He's guided him in a way that you really have to be paying close attention. The way that he befriended him.

[00:24:07] The way that he's interacted with the other characters, especially Zhang Bei killing the guy in front of him during the mingle game. And trusting him not to say anything. And he didn't. I mean, crazy. I don't think that murder was that bad. It was either all three of them die or he kills one of them. Like, I honestly didn't feel like that was that bad of a thing that he did. No.

[00:24:35] I felt like a lot of people were really shocked by that and I was kind of like, well, it was all three of them die or... Or one. And I think they're at the situation... I don't know if I could have done it, but... Wait, who did what? Who killed him? Last episode when Inho, there were three of them in the room and he killed the one guy and... I thought you meant this time, yeah, when Inho killed Zhang Bei. I was like, Veronica. Oh, no. That was bad. That was bad. That was fine. In many ways.

[00:25:05] I think that that... It was justified. No, that was awful. He was lucky to have lived that long. All right. So we move on to another point? Yeah, yeah. Veronica? I guess we saw with the bathroom fight exactly what the game keepers intended, which was for the X and O thing to build up to the point of people literally killing each other over the vote.

[00:25:31] And I think, you know, a lot of people have been sort of annoyed at the time that we've spent on the voting, but I've actually really liked that. I think it has added for me a lot of tension this season and sort of this chance for...

[00:26:16] I don't know. ...in the time financially, so I don't want to say all these people. It's necessarily... Not all of them were gambling it away like Gi-hun was. And even Gi-hun had an addiction. You know, so I'm not trying to, like, put them into a hole. But I just think it added this really interesting dynamic of people voting and not voting. And then what it set up between the players in the game, I think, was much more profound than what we had last season where you did have ganging up of people.

[00:26:45] But I think this is what led to what felt like a much, much more... Unless I'm remembering wrong, but a much, much more violent night of them killing each other. Yeah. And I mean, even, you know, the opening, just the way they're fighting in the bathroom is so, so brutal. And it's because you've forced them almost into these, like, two gang groups, right? And you've lifted the...

[00:27:12] I mean, literally, the tensions are life and death, an unimaginable amount of money. And now you've pitted them against each other and put patches on them to identify them easily. And I think it was sort of just fascinating. Like, we've seen it build and build. But to see it come into this immense brutality was sort of fascinating.

[00:27:34] And the sad part is that, kind of as you just said, like, if Gi-hun had actually been able to convince everyone to sort of get in on this. And they're really... They really all should be working together, right? Like, they are all in the same spot. Probably all of them together could have taken this down. I was thinking about that. Like, they would not have a way to bring the guards in and check the bodies or whatever. Yeah.

[00:28:03] I mean, I guess they could have a few, like, faked... I mean, it would just take, you know, a few faked deaths to get the guards in there and try it. I don't know if that would work. Anyways, I guess just, like, the reflection of the higher-ups, the game creators creating these false groups to fight each other. When really they are all basically the same and in the same really bad tough spot.

[00:28:32] And don't really need to be killing each other in this way. That's the social commentary of this episode. It's much more entertaining to watch two groups fight each other rather than band together and fight against the oppressor. Yeah. What a great lesson. That goes into my first point. Revolution.

[00:28:58] So, I think this show really... One of the reasons why it's so popular is because it connects with us. It touches something in us where we're like, life isn't fair. And I'm trying really hard, working hard. And then I look in the news and see these ultra-rich people getting away with everything and controlling things in a way that doesn't seem fair.

[00:29:27] There's a lack of fairness in the world. And Squid Game itself on a literal level is about these ultra-rich VIPs setting up desperate people to fight each other for their own VIPs entertainment. And for society, it can be seen as these oligarchs setting us all against each other or people in power. Not for entertainment, but as a distraction so we don't focus on them so they can keep staying in power.

[00:29:53] And just like what you guys were both saying, well, these O's and X's, they're like identity markers. And they're an easy thing for people to use to foment hate against each other. And that's like in Nazi Germany, you know, Jews and homosexuals, you could focus Hitler, focus people's hate on them.

[00:30:21] Here in the United States now, there's so much hate focused from certain groups on immigrants or trans people. And it's not as severe as Nazi Germany at all, but it's the same concept. It's controlling us through hate. You know why you guys are having all these problems? It's because of them. And there's this cartoon I saw recently. It was so good.

[00:30:48] It was this white guy with a cookie in his hand and across from them is a brown guy with nothing. And then right in between towards the back is this older white guy sitting on a big pile of cookies. And he's pointing at the brown guy and saying to the white guy, that guy wants your cookie. You know, it's just the same thing. And it's like, that's what Gi-Hoon is saying here. I mean, yeah, they could have handled it in a way that made it more heroic.

[00:31:14] But what he's saying, I loved when he sat down with all of them and he's like, we don't need to fight each other. We need to take the fight to the people who are controlling these games. It was like around a campfire or something that he's whispering at the people in control. And everybody just sort of seemed like they came out of the matrix at that point. Like, oh, yeah, we're just playing the game that these people have set up for us. Why don't we fucking break out of that and take control?

[00:31:41] And it was so thrilling to see someone have that idea and then actually act on it. You know, it's that touches something in all of us, too. I think he could have gotten the others on his side if they if he just told them like those. I'm sure there's a hell of a lot more money up there to be had. Right. Go up there and take it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, that would have appealed to their sense of greed.

[00:32:07] This all reminds me of this German movie called The Wave. It's about a history teacher who starts this. Like. Experiment in a classroom. Try to teach the students about autocracy. Autocracy. And the kids end up being fascists. Like it's. How that manipulation can.

[00:32:33] Start subtly and then turn into something so much bigger. So you have to watch for it and you have to. Be aware because it happens. Yeah. Yeah, it happens. It's happened and it's happening and it will happen unless people do something about it. And I a couple of things I'll add to this. I think tribalism is a big problem.

[00:32:56] And I've talked more openly about my politics and and this whole fomenting hate is it makes us feel like we're on teams against each other. And we're the righteous team and the other teams. And we start to dehumanize each other. And that's what the X's and the O's are doing in the squid game to bring it back to the show. But I think that impulse is a big part of the problem.

[00:33:22] And it's so hard not to do that when there's so much to be offended by on both sides. You know, we feel in our deep inside. But that's what the higher ups are, especially, I think, on one side using to foment hate. And don't don't give into that. Like if any one of us was at dinner with another person and we weren't talking politics, we would probably have a good time. And you would start to connect and realize, oh, yeah, we're all we're all human beings.

[00:33:51] And I wish we could get back to cordial debate with people that we didn't agree with, compromise, realizing we're all in this together. And and I think we either move towards working together, recognizing each other's humanity and connecting or we move towards civil war. Those are like the two directions. And I don't I don't want to go the civil war direction. And then the second thing Hwang Dong-yuk said in an interview before season two aired, quote, I'm not a big fan of explaining the message to the public before they even see the series.

[00:34:20] It's better for them to draw their own conclusions. What I can say is that I wanted to ask myself a question. Is there hope for humanity? Do we have the will and strength to change the direction the world is taking? And no, I don't have an answer. And I mean, if he's talking about the will to change the direction in the show, that's rebellion. That's what they're doing. It's a it's a rebellion. And we're talking about the risk of it. Like rebellions are all super risky and probably most failed. There's bloodshed.

[00:34:50] I mean, I don't know. I know I'm not I'm not trying to argue that Gihan shouldn't have got everyone involved because I think he should have gotten buy in from his whole team. But anyway, I also don't think Hwang Dong-yuk is necessarily calling for a revolution, but he is calling for change. And I think for a big change to happen somehow, current power structures have to be disrupted. And even if that's not about any violence, it's still it's it's hard to see how it's going to happen.

[00:35:17] You know, it would have to be politically we'd have to band together and realize we need to vote in people who care about fairness, not who care about. Funneling all the money to the top. He does things in this show that are very subtly bringing attention to things that he thinks need a light on them, such as having a transgender character in this season of the show.

[00:35:47] He's casting a, quote, disgraced pop star as one of the more polarizing characters this season. He's drawing attention to some of the things I think in his own country that are making him uncomfortable and think need to be changed or looked at in a different way.

[00:36:13] And honestly, I wish more directors and creators would do that. Yeah. And I think it's good for us as podcasters to really make it explicit in a way that Hwang Dong-yuk doesn't quite feel comfortable with, because if people aren't getting it, this is the point. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:36:36] I wish more creators felt that they could be as open when they're putting things together to showcase messaging that needs to be out there more and more. We use television and movies as entertainment, and I just would like to see more of this in it. More conversation starters, I guess. All right. Let's move on to another point. Daphne?

[00:37:06] Okay. Let's leave the island for a minute and go get on a boat that would probably make most people seasick. I thought about it when I was watching the scene because my dad was a lobster fisherman, and so I've been on boats. I didn't get seasick so much, but my mom, the rest of my family definitely were seasick people. I do, yeah. I get so seasick. I have a feeling I would now, as I'm older, but at the time I didn't.

[00:37:36] Let's talk about Captain Park. I know that there's a lot of division about was he bad? Is he bad? What's going on with him?

[00:37:45] I have so many theories about him because in this episode, he basically takes out the guy that has been operating the drone because he catches him tinkering with his drone, which leads me to believe they may have been getting too close to where they're supposed to be. Definitely. Definitely.

[00:38:11] But I also have to wonder how long he's been on the payroll because, I mean, he picked Junho up out of the sea after he had been shot off the cliff. Well, I think he's been since day one. Yeah. Since then. So I'm thinking he may have been sent there to do that and to get Junho far, far away from there by his own brother.

[00:38:40] I think in how probably said, I think my brother dead alive. I shot him off a cliff. Can you please find out where he is? If he's alive, get him out of here. If he's dead, bring me the body, whatever. No, you know, just very simply. This is the situation. And I think Captain Park does genuinely care for Junho, probably because.

[00:39:08] He spends so much time with him, but he's also purposely kept him away from what he's been trying to find all this time. If you think about it. I mean, Junho has no idea if he's really been to the places that are on that map or not. Like where on earth he's been out there. It's been. He's like, this looks familiar. No, no. They all look the same. It's a sea of adventure out there with Captain Park.

[00:39:38] I mean, and he seems like a likable guy, but then when he, I was just like, yep, okay. You have to pay attention to actions, not attitudes. Just because he's charming doesn't mean they're good. I had suspicions about him way back in episode one, honestly. You did. Because, yes, I did. Um, because I felt it was too, like, I just felt it was, it, it was too cool.

[00:40:07] There were some things in his relationship with Junho that were just too coincidental. So seeing him come full circle and be who he is in this episode, I was not honestly shocked. The only reason I was shocked or surprised at all is because they made it so obvious that you would think, would they really be making it this obvious if it, if that was actually where they were going with it? And then they did go there.

[00:40:30] All I really cared about at that point was please don't throw Choi overboard because all I could think of is all he went through with that Russian roulette, rock, paper, scissors with his boss, Mr. Kim. And he survived all of that. Now, I just didn't want him to die because I care about when I watch a show, I care about the characters, not just the top two, not just the top even five, six, seven. I like to know who everybody is.

[00:40:57] Like I dig into things that I have no reason to ever know, but I just dig into them anyway. You should do a podcast. I, you know, I should, it's a pity I don't podcast enough, but with Captain Park, I'm really interested in how they're going to, how he's going to spin the death of the, of the guy.

[00:41:22] Like, is he just going to say, well, he must've fallen overboard in a drunken stupor or. He set that up during this episode, basically. Yeah. You're like, watch out. You could, these are the kind of waves that'll sweep you off. Yeah. I think. Yeah. And no one even suspects him at all. I was so afraid. Like I said, that Choi was going to like dig in just a little too much, but he didn't.

[00:41:48] Thankfully, I saw speculation that maybe this captain is the one or one of the ones who ferries organs to buyers. And, you know, very well could be. Maybe he just happened upon Junho or maybe, as you said, sent him to get him or whatever. Yeah. I don't know. I mean, he hired the second boat of people. And so I'm just kind of like, how deep does this really go? How much more we need to see?

[00:42:19] Like a comment that Veronica made earlier. I feel like there was, there's so, there's a lot of answers we need that we weren't really given. And so I have a bunch of questions that I'll ask and talk about in my last point. But anyway, that, I mean, this is basically it. I think Captain Park, I think there's, we've learned a little bit, but I think there's a lot more behind him.

[00:42:45] I think it's entirely likely he's ferrying the organs. Do you really think that Inho doesn't know they're ferrying organs? That's a hard one for me because I feel like at times they make him and the other leaders of Squid Game like all knowing. But then in that episode where the guard was talking to the head guard about it, he was like, we've got it figured out.

[00:43:14] So there's not a risk of the head guy finding out. And so that made me think that they at least think they're doing it secretively. Are they turning a blind eye or is it completely hidden? Yeah. So if this guy is ferrying organs, then I don't think Inho would have tapped him for it. Yeah, that's a good point. Unless Inho actually really knows what's going on and is tolerating it.

[00:43:40] Well, without Owil Nam in charge now because he passed away, I'm assuming that Inho is the supreme commander, leader of all of this. He may have a different thought on things than Owil Nam did. Yeah. One thing about all of this because Jun Ho wasn't in this episode at all, right?

[00:44:07] So maybe this is the only place to talk about him while we're talking about this boat captain. So I'll use that as an opportunity to say, looking back on the season, I actually enjoyed the season quite a lot, you know, and yeah, every episode. But one thing that I think maybe wasn't quite as good is Jun Ho's story. And I was thinking about it and it feels a little bit like backwards progression compared to what we normally see for a character.

[00:44:32] Normally, we'd see someone like him who's investigating getting closer and closer to his goal as things went along. So maybe like in the first season, he'd be driving around on the boat looking for the island. And then in season two, he would infiltrate the games and impersonate a guard, you know, but they couldn't do that because they thought that season one was going to be the only season. So they did the infiltration then. And so this feels like, oh, we're watching it. I mean, I got to admit, I'm influenced by what do you call it?

[00:44:58] That guy that critiques movies, pitch meeting. They did a really good one on season two. And he's like, we're going to watch a guy on a boat now, you know? He's so good. He's so good. I love those. He does such a variety of different things. And I think there's something for everyone in his material. So, yeah, I was just like watching Junho on the boat again. And there was a couple interesting things. But for the most part, it didn't seem like that great of a story to me.

[00:45:28] Yeah, that was it for my point, Jason. What's next, Veronica? I'll talk a little bit about their like Viva La Resistance. Viva La Resistance. And at least some of the things that I liked the best from it, I think first and foremost was just Hoonji.

[00:45:48] I keep calling her Hooni because that's what that one other, the girl who died last episode had sort of lovingly referred to her as. And I really liked Hooni. I thought it was sweet. But I just thought she was fantastic in this episode. Like I loved her as they're trying to call out for volunteers. And she's standing up there like teaching everyone how to use the guns. And I think it's the little girl with leukemia's dad who turns and asks her how she knows so much.

[00:46:18] And she, you know, tells him that she was a sergeant in the military. And you see the moment of sort of like shock on his face. And then just her throughout really like she is in the middle of the group, but then moves to the front. She's the one shooting all of the security cameras out. Just like I feel like a hero's hero. And those are the moments I live for. Like I love fantasy series and the big, you know, speech before you go off to war and the hero moments during it.

[00:46:48] And I just felt like everything about her this episode felt like a strong hero moment. Just like pure and true. And even her reaction when she went back to the dormitory and what's his name? Deho. Deho, who had just increasingly been losing his cool and having a very much not hero moment. And I think understandably, given the situation they were in, I couldn't even fault him.

[00:47:16] But it was hard to watch, right? Especially the juxtaposition to some of the other people just like Huni who are like taking this absolute hero stance and really trying to make this work. And then him who's just like holding his. Did you guys notice that he's like holding his gun up over the parapet and like not even looking. Just like finally holding. No, he's just wasting all his ammo. He's half the reason why they needed to go get more ammo. Yeah.

[00:47:42] So it was really like fantastic watching her and then like disappointing watching him. But then even her reaction to him when she gets back to the dormitory and he's shrinking away. Like every time she moves her hands, he thinks he's about to be struck or killed. Yeah. I think both because he's so ashamed and feels like he deserves it and also because he's so traumatized because he just watched people die in front of him. Great performance. Yeah. Just personified that paralyzing feeling very well.

[00:48:12] And I think in a way that like while it felt disappointing, it wasn't the same sort of sickness I got when what was it? Yeah. When he watched that brutal killing. You just want to smack that kid. Yeah. With Dave Ho, it felt, I guess, more understandable and there was some level of sympathy, even though I was frustrated and angry that he was not going to help his friends like he said he would. And it just felt different.

[00:48:41] And then I felt a little different for me. Not, not all. Yeah, no, it was still very disappointing and frustrating. But yeah, I'm not giving him a pass at all, but I feel like I could understand being that just absolutely terrified. And then I loved that we ended the episode that that Hooney is still alive. And it's because she looked like she was about to go out there by herself with that gun, with the guards that came back into the dormitory. But it was the older mother. Yeah, the mom. Gumja.

[00:49:10] She stopped here and said this is, she said this is not a good way to die, I think. Yeah, it's not, you don't need to die like this. Yeah. Because she knew that she would maybe take out one or two or maybe even three guards and then die. And that would be it. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:49:26] And I think like more broadly, and I commented on this, I think a few episodes ago, I've just appreciated that not only did they give trans representation, but she's much more than just the trans character. Like she's a dynamic character who I cared very much whether she lived or died.

[00:49:48] And I just think she's more than just a, you know, a token character to represent, you know, they did use her character well to talk about the issues she faced being a trans woman. And I think, to me, there was more to her than just that.

[00:50:07] And I think, I think that's important for the representation because I think, I don't know, my hope is that people watching this who have not encountered or have a trans person in their life that they're friends with, I think this humanizes it more for them. And I hope that's what's happening. I think not only do you have empathy for the things she was struggling with about being trans, but you also realize this is just another person who's trying to survive and live their life, right?

[00:50:36] And like, hey, I could hang out and be friends with this person, have a drink, whatever. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I mean, look at, look at the trajectory of her character with Gumja, who is the one that pulls her back and says, you can't die like this. Yeah. In the beginning, she was talking with her son about what is that? Who is that? Why, why are they here?

[00:51:05] And she's come to a different place when it comes to her character. And it's refreshing, honestly, to see. Yeah. I think she was much more, I don't think she was ever like cruel, but she was distracted and only saw that about Huni. Yeah. And by the end, she wanted her to live because she wants to go have dinner with her. Mm-hmm. Just like you said, yeah.

[00:51:34] Hyun Joo, right? That's her name? Yeah. Sorry, I keep saying. Yeah. And also, she like, nobody wanted to pick her on their team, or at least a lot of people didn't. And now she's like a hero saving lives. Yeah. Yeah. She'd be one of the first people I picked. Yeah. Honestly. All right. My turn? Yeah. Yeah. I'll go through a few point, just random things about, I call it the dorm battle between the two. It was brutal, as you said. I don't know.

[00:52:03] No, I think probably the season one one was pretty brutal, too. Everybody stab at each other. And I wonder if this one felt more brutal just because we saw it more recently. But I agree with you. I think it is, too. I'm just not sure. Whatever the case, it was really brutal. Just seeing everybody stab each other. Do you see Nam-gyu popping Thanos pills and snickering? And then he brutally stabs Se-mi to death. That was one of the hardest things to watch.

[00:52:31] And Min-su cries to himself on the top bunk. And I'm just like, you coward. And she's done nothing but try to help you. And he did try a little, but not much by throwing that bottle down or whatever. And one of the... So when Jenny Ryan was on with me, was that last time or the time before? Last time. Last time. And we were talking about the Rock, Paper, Scissors game.

[00:52:58] And Jenny thought that Se-mi was trying to call him away, Min-su. And I thought Min-su cheated at the game. And one of the listeners wrote in and realized that it was kind of both. He said he rewatched that scene. And what happened was that she reached out her hand to Min-su to say, come with me.

[00:53:23] And he took advantage of her hand looking like a piece of paper and threw the scissors. And so that was really fucked up. Very. It's a coward's way out. The soldiers come in because the head guy who's in charge while in-ho's in the game said, go in to suppress or something like that.

[00:53:49] So I guess when the numbers get down to a certain amount that they're wanting, that's when he sends the soldiers in. I saw the mother didn't let her son help. And also, I wonder, I think it's a little bit, little bit department of suspension of disbelief that she survived that whole thing. And that even the Jun-hee did too. We didn't really get to see how they survived. Maybe people took pity on them or maybe they hid or something.

[00:54:18] Or maybe they fought valiantly. I don't know. I mean, they probably hid. They were part. They hid. They were all hiding. They were part of the conversation with Gi-hoon. Yeah. They knew. They were sitting there with him. So they did know to like hide. Are you sure? Yes. Have you heard that? The mom did? Yeah. Yeah. Oh, okay. For sure. For sure. Well, then that's, yeah. That's probably it then, yeah. I mean, also, it's a little bit suspension of disbelief that you could escape it by hiding under a bed. You may be dragged, your ass dragged out from under there and stabbed.

[00:54:46] In-ho goes along with it, killing some of the workers and stuff. And so, because when In-ho was saying to Gi-hoon that quote that I mentioned earlier about, so you're saying that it's okay to sacrifice a few for the greater good. I wondered if he was making some kind of oblique philosophical point because like you said, Daphne, he's subtly been just doing things. He has. And I wonder, but I don't quite get what he's doing exactly, but. He's having the time of his life, Jason.

[00:55:16] That is what's happening. I love watching him. I know that. Because he is getting to play with someone who intrigues him and he gets to be in it again. He misses that rush, I think. But when he's like yelling at people, like the same message that Gi-hoon was about to say, why don't you vote to go home? And I'm like, but In-ho wants everyone to stay. So why is he yelling at them to vote to go home? I don't quite understand where I'm coming from.

[00:55:45] Because it's all part of this. Like it's all part of the bigger. It's all part of it doesn't explain to me why he's telling people to do something that you don't think he wants them to do. Because he knows that they're not going to succeed anyway. Like that. I mean, he manipulates the entire thing. Why wouldn't you tell people what? So he's still just trying to make people trust him knowing that he's going to fail. I disagree.

[00:56:12] I think, and I could be so wrong, but what I have thought is that In-ho came into the games because he's interested in the social disagreement that he had with Gi-hoon. And he believes these people all fall into one category. And I think some of the things that happened in the game have made him for a bit question if he could be wrong.

[00:56:40] And I think this episode when Gi-hoon said that, that he decided, no, you fall back into that category then. Because I think that he thinks that the games are the greater good. They're taking a whole bunch of people that he considers a suck on society and just turning back out one of them who now has money is no longer a suck on society. Like, I think that's the story he's told himself.

[00:57:06] And I think he did have a bit of curiosity to see if Gi-hoon could prove him wrong. And I think this episode he felt squarely that Gi-hoon was, as he expected, willing to sacrifice. Some people are sacrifice-able. And again, like, I don't think it's this clear thing where Gi-hoon, like, I'm not saying Gi-hoon went, like, totally, you know, it's not black and white. Like, he was still trying to do an overall good thing, I think.

[00:57:34] But he knew some people are going to die because of this. And he was okay with it. And I think that's where In-ho was like, all right, you know, I was right all along. You are who I thought you are. And I'm going to make you also, like, suffer some more for this. And then I think maybe, too, I love, you're clarifying this for me. I think you're right. And I think when he offered to go with Gi-hoon to attack the manager's office and Gi-hoon said, no, you stay here. I'm going to take my friend with me instead.

[00:58:04] That just cemented it for him. I'm like, you're just picking favorites here. Yeah. Do you agree to Daphne with that? Or do you have a different idea?

[00:58:15] I do wonder if Gi-hoon ended up, how to phrase this, I agree with what you said about him thinking Gi-hoon was just, you know, a lowlife, a useless person that could be part of this game and discarded, whatever.

[00:58:47] Whatever. What I'm wondering is, after he spent time in there, at least the first few games, I do think it started to change his opinion. I'm wondering if he was actually surprised by it.

[00:59:09] Like, was In-ho actually surprised by Gi-hoon turning to this route? Like, did he expect that he was going to turn this way? Or was he expecting him to react in a different way? And that's why he decided to run with it and then get himself out of there. I mean, he wrote himself out of his own soap opera. Basically.

[00:59:39] I mean, that's what it was like, what I took from it is that he found a way to write himself out. I think the crazy thing is that Gi-hoon still doesn't know who he is this whole time. Like, even by the end of the episode, he had the black mask on. I was like, he still doesn't know that he's been betrayed.

[00:59:56] But when Noel, or not Noel, when, yeah, Noel, the guard, when she was arguing with her boss saying, hey, I started this because you said that we would be putting hopeless people out of their misery or something like that, right? And so, yeah, I think that's sort of the ethos along those lines. It's a lie they tell themselves that. Yeah. And probably In-ho feels the same way. Like, these people are suffering and they're not contributing anything and they would be better off dead.

[01:00:25] And Gi-hoon, I think maybe, because he let Gi-hoon live, notably at the end there, right? And so maybe he feels differently about- He wanted to hurt him worse. Maybe. Yeah, I think you're right. But I think he feels differently about Gi-hoon now. He doesn't see him as one of these useless, hopeless people. He sees them as someone to respect, but that just doesn't, maybe, well, maybe he's still trying to get him fully over to his side of thinking.

[01:00:51] And maybe this will end with Gi-hoon as the next front man. I don't think so, though. Oh my God, wouldn't it be amazing? You know, it's so depressing, though. It's so- Please no. I mean, there are tons of people online that are saying stuff like that. They're like, this is how he can be the front man or whatever. And I don't personally see it, but I do see him- I do see that this is changing him in ways that he's not going to be able to go back. Yeah.

[01:01:19] Like, I would not be surprised if at the end of this he does not go to see his daughter because he feels that he is ashamed of everything he's done, or that he is not, he thinks that she's better off without him because of his deeds in the past. Assuming he survives. But I also wonder what Inho thinks about not only Gi-hun, but what about all of the others?

[01:01:48] Because he spent so much time with the others, too. The pregnant girl. Yeah. And he seemed to care. To really care, so- So I feel, I really still feel like, I want to, I want him to give a speech or something, you know? It's not been that long ago that Inho was in the games trying to save his wife and child. But I think there are things that struck a chord for him. He isn't a person who'd be better off dead.

[01:02:16] I want her to survive if he's having those kind of feelings, and that goes against it a little bit. I think he hates himself, too. I think he was one of these people, and if he hates the people in the games, then he hates himself, too. Mm-hmm. I think there's some level of self-loathing that is mixed up in all this. I'm excited. I hope we see exciting things from him in season three and get more, I guess, insight into where his head is and where.

[01:02:44] I would like to know a little bit of the backstory of how he came to be in this position. I would love, yeah, I would love if they spent, like, part of an episode flashing back to some of, like, what it was like for him in the games, and then also his immediate post-game, like, what his trajectory was in between. Do we know what number he was when he won the games? Like, was it on the paperwork that his brother ran?

[01:03:13] Because the very last scene that we see flash is red light, green light, but, like, the girl and there's a boy, and we see, like, a few players. Like, what if that is the flashback to him? Oh, maybe, yeah. Could be. And you know what? I don't think that I've seen that as a theory. I've seen it's a new season. It's these characters. But no one has said, oh, what if it's a flashback to? That'd be cool. Yeah. I'd be down for that. That'd be so awesome. Heard it here first, people.

[01:03:42] So I'll continue on with the riot. But first, since we're talking about Inho, one thing I didn't realize but I read online is Gi-hun's never actually seen the front man with his mask. So it's a bit of a plot hole when he's dreaming of him coming to the door in his apartment earlier this season. He's saying here the man in the black mask runs it all.

[01:04:08] He could have heard that from somebody else, so that's maybe a little bit less of a plot hole, but that dream sequence is a bit of a plot hole. Yeah. Yeah. So one of the guys, just a couple other random things about this. So they successfully overpower the soldiers, kill a bunch of them, a few get away, one's left alive, which I loved, and they use him and Gi-hun says, oh, go kill him.

[01:04:35] And then this one guy, well, I forgot if that happened right before or after, but number 47, Byung-su, he wants to kill all the O's with the guns they got from the soldiers. And Gi-hun stopped him. And I thought that was good, you know? I mean, it shows Gi-hun still like a good person. He's not, I don't care about anybody. Let's just do the mission. He's like, no, that's not what we're here for. We don't want to be like them. And I wonder if that will give him a little good karma with these guys.

[01:05:04] I don't necessarily think so, but maybe he just saved their lives. And so hopefully they appreciated that. And then last, I just loved when Gi-hun said to everyone who's left, everyone, we will now head up to the masked men's headquarters. We'll capture the ones who captured us, put an end to this game and make them pay. That's just a good bit of dialogue right there. Even though it failed, it was so thrilling. That's stormed the castle. Yeah, exactly.

[01:05:35] All right. Who's next? Stephanie, got any more? Yes, I do. I think I'm, you know what? I'm just going to go with my questions. Like, these are some of the questions I have. And behind some of them are other things that we may end up talking about. But I, here are some questions. Who is Daiho?

[01:06:03] What is his backstory that he could not even, it didn't look like he even wanted to fire the gun in the first place or want to use it. Yet he's supposedly a Marine. So I'm questioning the post-traumatic stress, it seems like. Was he a privileged person that never had to experience combat? Was he just like an office person?

[01:06:32] I'm not sure. I'm interested in that because I just feel like there might be more to that. In the same respect, who is Min Su? Because I get being afraid in this environment. But there have been rumors online that he's certain people. And I'm not going to share that.

[01:06:58] But I'm curious about who they both are. Like, we don't really have much or any backstory on either of them. And I do have to wonder if maybe that's something that's going to play out in the second. I'm still calling this season two because it's 2B to me. So those are two questions that I have.

[01:07:21] There was something that happened in another previous episode where Deho deflected talking more about what part of the Marines he was in. Like, something happened and he very quickly deflected it that made me initially question, has he been lying about something? And then this episode, like you said, I was curious, like, did he join and then get, like, dishonorably discharged for some reason?

[01:07:49] Or, like, yeah, I also feel like there's just something else. It's not just PTSD from being in the Marines. It feels like there's definitely something else to the story. Another question, how will Deho react when he finds out that Zhengbei died? Because they were very, very tight.

[01:08:16] Yeah, he's going to be, I think, very ashamed and sad. Will witnessing Zhengbei's execution break Gihan completely? Or will he find a way to come back? But then again, exactly what will happen to him? Will they kill him?

[01:08:44] Will they take him off? I mean, will he be returned to the others? I don't know that that's going to be the case. I'm not really sure. What are they going to do with all the players? Yeah. And then here, my final question for you, because we've really not talked about this yet. And I really, I think this could, yeah.

[01:09:12] So, Gyeongsuk, who is, of course, the father of the sick girl. I'm so excited you're bringing this up. He's someone that people, I mean, Player246, we've been kind of rooting for him in this game.

[01:09:32] Especially because he's also been so kind to Yunju in the last couple of episodes. He was shot. But we didn't see it. But we didn't see it. And who shot him? We just didn't see where. Right. We didn't see where.

[01:10:01] It appeared that he was shot, not up on his chest, but more in another area. We don't know who shot him. You're saying the balls, right? No, I'm just kidding. No? Exactly. I'm saying a flesh wound. I'm just saying. Yeah. Because we do know that No'ul knows who he is, knows who his daughter is, knows he's in the game.

[01:10:32] Is he dead? No. I don't think so. Is she going to try to get him smuggled out? Probably. She's going to try to use her leverage with the doctor who's been harvesting the organs. Yes. Yes. To get him out of there. Or something. This is what I thought too, but I was like, am I crazy? But no, I'm so excited. You're not crazy. Like, no, you can't kill him off. No.

[01:11:02] And I know there's been so much talk about they're not killing enough people. They're not killing enough people. Did you, I mean, did you watch season one? They certainly killed a lot of people. Did you watch the mingle game on here? Because they certainly killed a lot of people. They may not be the characters we know, but they killed a lot of people. I don't need for everyone to die in order for this season to have meant something.

[01:11:32] Well, in last season, we kept our main characters till very close to the end. Yeah. Like, I think last season we went right into the games and had a lot more time to meet and learn characters and care about them. And some of those main ones didn't die until the final couple of games. And we're only three games in right now. They did red light, green light. We did the five game six legged.

[01:12:02] Yeah. And then the tourney thing. And then we did mingle. Special game. And now we did the special game. So, I'm not sure. And we lost Thanos. That hurt me. That hurt me. I enjoyed his character a lot. He was terrible, but I loved watching him on screen. He, the actor did such a great job with that. And there's so many videos.

[01:12:31] And he finally did an interview after 11 years. After he was disgraced from being a pop singer. For smoking marijuana. Which is ridiculous. He finally did an interview and it was really great. He just talked about everything that he had been through. But then he also talked a lot about the character and what he was trying to do with it. What he was encouraged to do with it.

[01:13:00] And I think he knocked it out of the park. His character was almost childlike in the way that he was reacting and doing things. And, yeah. So, I feel like losing Thanos was enough. What do you think, Jason? Did you lose enough people? Well, I can understand the criticism that there's a lot of characters to keep track of.

[01:13:25] And I did think it was a little bit conspicuous that so many people were dying, but none of them. You know? So, it just kind of took me out of it a little bit. Not that I was disappointed. But it's like in the comics, the X-Men. When Scarlet Witch said one day she just cast this spell that killed 90% or not killed. Made 90% of the mutants on the planet lose their powers. And it was supposed to be random.

[01:13:52] But it just so happened that all the X-Men, except for like one, got to keep their powers. And so, it's sort of like, oh, that's a nice coincidence that everyone we care about escaped the fate. You know? So, it's not that I want to see people die. But I'm just saying on a storytelling level, it kind of took me out of it a little bit. But it's fine. I think that... I can understand why people would feel that way. I think this season, people are meant to die in ways that are meaningful.

[01:14:21] Or in well thought out or well planned. And so, do I think all the characters that we care about that are still alive are going to stay alive? No. I just think that the way that they're going to die is something that was well thought out, planned, and chosen for them by the director. Hope so, yeah. Yeah. I don't think... I mean, Youngmi died in a very tragic way in the Mingle game.

[01:14:53] And... Sae Mi just said something about Minsu, the way that she died, even though she tried to help him. That was tragic and horrible. So, yeah. There's meaning to it. Yeah. Jungbei executed. I feel like things are going to... The deaths that we've had have pushed things forward or pushed characters forward to do things. And so... And Thanos and Crypto Guy had a rivalry the whole time.

[01:15:21] They totally did. One of them killed the other one. They totally did. It was always a question of who was going to get the upper hand, and I honestly thought that Thanos was going to get the upper hand. I did. Yeah. I did not think Myungi was going to be the winner of that at all. And leave Thanos' right-hand man as the one of those two to live either. And he's... And he's all drugged up. Everyone. Everyone forgets his name.

[01:15:50] Even Thanos forgets his name. It's Nam-gyu. Nam-gyu, yeah. All right. Let me talk through a little bit of after the dorm fight. I just call it war because it really felt like a war movie, the firefight and the stairwell. Not just because it was a firefight, but it just felt tragic, you know? It felt like a lot of people needlessly dying for this stupid game.

[01:16:19] And it's horrible, like a lot of this show. Why Karen covers her eyes when she watches. The captive soldier takes them to the entrance of this manager's office with a control room right above it. And I found it a little bit... I had to suspend my disbelief that you can just use a worker mask to pass security. That ain't too secure. But it was thrilling to see Gi-hun carrying a mask like that.

[01:16:46] And I think that was in the promotional material too. And you know that if he's carrying a mask like that, that things have gone off the rails. So I like that. In-ho is interesting through all this. Because right before that soldier that they had captive got shot, he seemed to recognize In-ho. Which is a little confusing because he doesn't have his mask on all the time. But it seemed like he recognized him. And that makes us wonder, like, all through the games we're wondering, where exactly is In-ho coming from?

[01:17:15] And why does he seem to be cooperating? And now that the shit's hit the fan, is he going to keep cooperating? He killed a couple soldiers, but they're out into the MC Escher space now. So what will he do? And so then later when he's got, he looks up at the security camera and he seems to have a knowing look or like he's sending a message or something. And you're wondering this the whole time.

[01:17:40] And then when he finally takes those two guys around to the back and it looks like they have an easy shot at these people that are firing down on Gi-hun and Jung-bae. And then he shoots the two guys in the back instead. And it's like, no! They finally turned the corner. Because I still, at that point, I wasn't sure that he was going to turn against them. I thought he probably would. But you never know for sure. You know, he seemed like such a buddy. It was like a buddy movie almost between him and Gi-hun.

[01:18:10] The look on Fifteen's face when he turned around and saw that he had shot 47 was just... And then the way he made him suffer. Oh, that was so gross. And he had to use the bullets that Gi-hun had just given him to finish the job. That's so cruel. We talked a lot about the Dae-ho stuff. I was sort of wondering, yeah, maybe there is more to this guy.

[01:18:38] Because I don't really understand why they needed this story element. It seemed like Dae-ho not coming back with the ammo impacted things. Maybe they could have succeeded if they had the ammo. But they could have just made it so that In-ho betraying them foiled their plan. So I don't quite understand why they had this stuff with Dae-ho aside from it just being an interesting development. But how does it fit into the bigger story? I think it does.

[01:19:07] And we don't know it yet. But I think we're going to find out. There's more there. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. I think you might be right about that too. Yeah. The other thing... Oh, no. You guys already talked about it. That this guy, Kyung-suk, is probably going to be saved by Noel. Cool. We hope. Fingers. Veronica and I are leading the charge on hoping that happens. No, I think that'd be cool. I mean, Noel's been one of my favorite characters. Of both of their stories. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely.

[01:19:35] And I think that's why it has something along those lines has to at least be attempted. Because her story's not done. They started off this really interesting story with her. And now they even said, like, you heard two soldiers talking, saying, how are the organs? Oh, they're fine. That bitch didn't do anything. Okay, good. So she's standing back now. But that just can't be it with her. There's got to be more. Then at the end, Gi-hun and Jung-bae surrender because they ran out of ammo in-host there as frontman with the mask on.

[01:20:05] And player 456, did you have fun playing the hero? Look closely at the consequences of your little hero game. Blam! Which was tragic. Tragic. And I think, you know, this, I think this is a great cliffhanger. I think this was a really good place to end it because they tried this amazing thing and totally failed. And so things are very hopeless at this point. And that's, I mean, it's kind of script writing 101.

[01:20:32] You put your heroes through hell before they hopefully come out victorious in the end. And so I do hope we see some level of, I think because it's a quick game, it's going to be at least bittersweet, you know, but that Gi-hun wins in the end. I think I felt like they were up against such insurmountable odds from the get-go that I think that is part of what sort of soiled my opinion of Gi-hun maybe a little more.

[01:21:02] You know it can't succeed. Plus there's another season left too, so you know it can't just succeed. But I just like, I mean, we saw last season the amount of soldiers that they have on the island. I just felt like the whole thing felt doomed to fail from the get-go. And so to me it just felt sort of like a depressing exercise in watching our heroes all get gunned down.

[01:21:27] I mean, you know, Luke Skywalker and Han Solo went into the Death Star and saved Princess Leia. Yeah. There's some pretty hopeless scenarios in movies and TV that end up victorious. Yeah, I guess for some reason. Yeah, I think maybe knowing, I don't know if it was because I knew there was another season, but it just felt so doomed from the outset that I think I felt just a heaviness over them even leaving the dormitory.

[01:21:56] It felt like they were, they're not safe, but they were safe. Like they were in a controlled, more controlled environment despite the fact everything was- More predictable. Hitting the fan. And one thing that I've been coming to, trying to come to terms with our process is, does Gi-hun winning mean Gi-hun lives? I don't think necessarily it does, but I suspect he will. Yes, I don't. I don't know. I have no idea. Yeah.

[01:22:26] Just that whole thing you mentioned, his daughter hanging out there, I feel like that needs to be resolved one way or the other, and I don't think it'll just be, well, he can't go because he's dead. I think it'll be a choice if he doesn't go. I think it has to be the choice that he doesn't go because he's, I don't know. Maybe- You ought to be alive to make a choice. Here's the thing. Maybe he does become the front man and changes the game completely so it becomes something else.

[01:22:52] Yeah, maybe it's just more fun and no one dies and you just go to this island and have a great time and drink martinis. No, I don't think that way. Except for the first year, he brings back the VIPs and puts them in the name. Yes, that's what I want. And then from then on. And everybody else watches. I don't want that though either. Uh-uh. You don't want to see what? That him be the front man? The VIPs. Yeah, I don't want to see, I want the games to be over. I don't want it to be- You don't want to see them torture the VIPs? I don't want to reverse Hunger Games.

[01:23:22] Like, I don't want to see them become- Why not? Because I don't want to see them become the villains they're trying to take down. That's true. Even if those people are terrible and wrong, they don't deserve torturous deaths. They maybe deserve to be locked up, but I don't know. I think that's when we lose our humanity, right? Is when we, I don't know. I mean, what do you think Gi-Hoon's goal is? He's not going to- An eye for an eye and the whole world's blind. He's there to kill them. I know.

[01:23:53] But you don't want to see that. I understand. Yeah, I think- I don't judge him harshly if he does. They're terrible, terrible people. Like, please do not get me wrong. I just think if you want to be able to take the higher moral ground and if you want to see improvements in society and things move the way you do, then you don't take down the bad people and then do the same thing to them that you've been so upset that they're doing to you. That is true.

[01:24:21] I could see them kept on the island to play children's games for the rest of their lives and every day. I don't know. Yeah. There are other ways. And I'm not saying it would be that I would judge Gi-Hoon if he did take them down. Like, maybe they do deserve to die, but I don't think torturing them is going to make him actually feel any better about it. I'm just thinking about all this.

[01:24:49] It's like, what could be a satisfying ending to the show? I think on one hand, if this is a commentary about society, then if you wrap it all up in a neat little bow where everyone's happy, then that's maybe not going to feel right for the show. Like, that's too easy. So, what could be? I feel like, I mean, I think maybe an ending for the show would be like, ah, we tried, but there was nothing we could do.

[01:25:14] Or a complicated ending where you're left conflicted with things. Like, you are okay somewhat, but there are things that are prickly. Yeah. All right. Let's talk a little bit about this post-credits scene. Hopefully, people watched. It was just a few minutes in.

[01:25:37] The player, you see players go into a room, a game room, and you see the red light, green light doll there, whose name is Young He, by the way. And then there's a little boy doll. Named Chul Su. Chul Su. And they call him her boyfriend in the 80s. And you see one of those railroad crossing things with a red light and a green light, and the red light turns to green. Well, the red light goes off, the green light comes on.

[01:26:04] And so, wow, I didn't even think about that this could be a flashback. But either way, it's another game. I would love it if it was a flashback. We don't know if this game is good. I think it would be too easy for it to be an actual red light, green light. Because the other one, as I've explained before, is the Korean version of red light, green light. But people are moving as the person's talking. But there's a lot of speculation about different types of games that could be online.

[01:26:32] And the ones I've read sound really, really fun and interesting and potentially horrific. Which characters died? I thought it would be worth pointing out. A lot of randoms. But of the people we know, Sae Mi, the nose ring girl, Jung Bae, Gi-hun's friend. Player 47, Byung Su. He's the one who wanted to kill all the O's when they got the guns. Maybe Gyeong-seok, the dad of the sick girl, but we think not.

[01:27:01] And then who survived? Gi-hun because the front man spared him. Dae-ho because he hid in the dorm. Hyun-ju because she followed Dae-ho to the dorm to get the ammo. Joon-hee and Crypto-guy, right? They both survived. They're both alive, yeah. The mother and the son. Joon-hee. Yeah, Joom-ja and Yeon-sik. Joon-ja. Nam-gu survived, right? Yes, he did. The druggie guy.

[01:27:29] The old mouthy guy with lots of debt. Yeah. Number 100. He survived. Min-su. He's still alive. He survived, right? Min-su is still alive, yeah. And Son-yao, the shaman. Yep. Yeah. Still alive. So those are all the player characters I can think of. We also have No-ul and, of course, In-ho and Jun-ho and Choi and the boat captain. Those are the only ones. Yeah. So still plenty of characters to build another season around. Yeah.

[01:28:00] Yeah. Yeah. And they did shoot this back-to-back. So those things are all done. We're just going to have to wait. And, you know, I mean, I think part of them having to keep so many of those characters are alive is because they're going to wrap it with season three. And they didn't want to probably have to build up a whole bunch of new characters for us to invest in. Yeah. So while I can see that complaint, like we do have a lot of our main characters left, we weren't even halfway through the actual games, right? Yeah.

[01:28:29] I mean, it really is just like a mid-season thing. Because even the guy wrote it as one season, I think. And then they had him chop it into two. That is the new fad thing. I hate mid-season finales. I didn't like them when they first came around. And I don't like them in... Yeah, and I don't like them in Netflix either. I don't like them on any of these things. No. I just... I like hate a cliffhanger because I'm too anxious.

[01:28:59] Like I get why you guys are saying like it's great to still want, but like... I love it. I hate it. I don't want to wait. I want to know now. Because there's so many other things to watch. We have Yellow Jacket's coming up. Oh, that's true. Cobra Kai finale. I'm just going to put my focus on all that. And before you know it, Squid Game will be back. Yeah. Be cool. All right. Oops. Don't forget The Last of Us, Jason. The Last of Us. I'm so excited for that.

[01:30:01] Okay, we're back. It's time for some news. Already mentioned it, but Netflix announced that season three is going to premiere June 27th. Which was such a welcome announcement, right? Since there were, what, two years between season one and two? I think they had to announce it because it kind of got leaked. Oh, did it? Yeah. Yeah. They haven't announced how many episodes, but I saw a rumor that it will be six. Six episodes. Nice. That'll be good.

[01:30:29] That was also from some leaked material, so it might be true. Yeah. That'd be cool. As of now, right now, as I'm saying this, Squid Game season two is the second most watched non-English language TV season ever at more than 173 million views and 1.2 billion hours watched since launch. I wonder what the number one is. Could you tell me? I mean, is it one? Season one was the most watched of any kind in Netflix's history.

[01:30:59] I think season two is number three on the list of all shows. Do you know what two is? Bridgerton? Nope. Wednesday. Really? Mm-hmm. I'm so glad it wasn't Bridgerton. Are you in the non-Brigerton? No. I mean, let me be fair. I watched all of it, so I'm contributing to the numbers, but I was just expecting a very different show based on the amount of hype, and I just thought it was very predictable,

[01:31:29] childish dialogue. I'm so sorry to all the fans. I understand why people love it, too. No hate. You did watch it all. I'm sure lots of shows that I love other people despise. So yeah, I just didn't get it. I didn't get it. I can't get into... I get... I'm funny about hype. If there's too much hype, I almost want to stay away from it. The music is fantastic. I'll give it that. And the costumes.

[01:31:56] The Hollywood Reporter talked with Squid Game creator Hwang Dong-hyuk about the possibility of more Squid Game after season three. He said, if the time comes and it just so happens that I am able to come up with a character or a different story, then maybe there might be a comeback, but I'm thinking more along the lines of a spinoff. And among multiple ideas he shared for a spinoff series emerges a theme, filling in the gaps.

[01:32:21] Hwang suggests filling the backstories of other characters or even exploring the lost time between seasons one and two for returning characters frontman or the recruiter. He says, one of the ideas I'm tossing around is what happened between season one and two. There's a three-year gap. So for example, what was the frontman doing during those three years? What was the recruiter doing? When I have some downside time, I like to just toss some ideas around and go wild with my imagination. So I guess we can be open to anything.

[01:32:51] And in a previous interview with Hollywood Reporter, he said, if I ever wanted to go back to the world of Squid Game, it would be about different characters with a different story arc. For example, the mass guards, how did they end up there? What do they do in their downtime? Something like that, maybe. And I'm like, wow, I don't know, man. It seems like at this point, is it a cash grab?

[01:33:14] Yeah, I hope they wrap it with season three and that it's a nice, you know, squid game color bow. So it won't be perfect. But like, I don't expect a perfect happy ending, but I hope they finish it. Yeah, it feels like they're going to just keep doing more because they're going to offer him boatloads of money. Yeah.

[01:33:37] And Deadline Hollywood reported back in October that David Fincher is involved in heading up an American version or an English language version. Yeah. Oh, wow. He's amazing. David Fincher is such a great storyteller, but I just don't want it to be a carbon copy. Yeah. I think if they could do it. Sometimes that works really well and sometimes not so good.

[01:34:06] Yeah, but I'm intrigued by that. Yeah. He talked also about a little about what's in store for season three. He says, I wanted to conclude season two after all of Gi-hun's attempts had gone to failure. The price he had to pay was losing his longest and most precious best friend at the hands of the front man. And I wanted to end the second season at that very moment. Then begin the next season from that space where he's ridden.

[01:34:34] He's ridden with a huge amount of guilt and defeat. I wanted to see where that would carry Gi-hun further on. So it doesn't really say much. All right. Let's get in some listener feedback. Becky Anderson says, I didn't expect that showdown. I can't even guess how they're going to close this out, but I'm looking forward to finding out. Zero zero one killing Jungbae was cruel and I'm concerned this might break Gi-hun.

[01:35:03] Told y'all the boat captain was shady as fuck. You were right. Catherine Peters says, I was expecting an intense ending, but I'm not sure what sort of Gi-hun will come out in season three. His trauma from season one gave him the strength to fight for others in season two. I'm afraid the execution of Jungbae might lead Gi-hun sacrificing himself to the end games completely. To end the games. Yeah.

[01:35:32] If he could figure out a way to do that, that might be an ending that would fit the show. You know? Karen D. Snyder says, the finale was amazing. Although I don't see how Gi-hun thought they could possibly prevail against a greater number of soldiers. I liked that it was a direction that I would not have guessed they would take. Me too. The gunfights were thrilling to watch and sad when it became clear it was a suicide mission for most of the fighters. Yep.

[01:36:00] The front man's chilling ploy to kill Gi-hun's friend in front of him to make his point that Gi-hun was just playing hero because the front man can't fathom caring about anybody or being selfless shook me. That's, that's interesting. Take after finishing the finale. I watched squid game making season two, which I would recommend. It had interviews with the casting creator who talked about the polarization that's going on where people are divided and hate each other. I did not know such a thing existed and I'm absolutely going to watch it.

[01:36:29] So thanks for letting me know about that. Nathan Eshelman says, I have to agree with Jason. Some of the goofy music that's played during the games makes the experience jarring. If I had to guess why they're using it, I'd say the show became self-aware about how large their audience became in between seasons and throwing in the jovial music was an attempt to make intense scenes more palatable to a global audience. They're casting a wide net now that the show has invaded pop culture.

[01:36:57] Maybe there's a lot of people who show up for the social commentary or the intense game show aspect who would otherwise have a hard time digesting the horror elements. But I feel like the music actually underserves the seriousness of what's going on. These games are horrific and in my opinion, the tone and the score should reflect that. Especially because there's typically nothing tongue-in-cheek or parody-like about the games that would justify a light-hearted score.

[01:37:26] Except, of course, for the digestic music that plays during the children's games. Music that the characters hear in-universe should be carefree carousel music. I agree. But the music, the audience here should reflect the actual tone of what's going on. That's my armchair expert opinion. I'm hoping to hear more interpersonal relationships as the cast grows smaller.

[01:37:52] Or I'm hoping to see more interpersonal relationships as the cast grows smaller. When I think about characters from Season 1, I think about how Gihon wraps his jacket around Oh Will Nam's waist so that the other players can't see he wet himself. It's a gesture of compassion and dignity that sticks with me. Up to this point in Season 2, I see the characters in a more black-and-white fashion. Are you an X or an O? Do you want to survive or make money?

[01:38:20] That's the lens with which I view a lot of these new characters. I'm looking forward to Season 3, even though it feels like it's going to be a Season 2, Part 2. There was nothing about this season that felt like the end of a chapter. It feels like a halfway point. I liked how some people shifted, like Jungbae. He was an X who went to an O and back to an X. And I liked that Hyunju was an O the whole time.

[01:38:47] Just so you could avoid too much typecasting. I mean, there's some typecasting, but yeah. All right. So Rinaldi wrote me a thesis. I'm sorry, but the frontman, a.k.a. Inho, comes across a little too close to Anakin Skywalker, a.k.a. Darth Vader. His black trench coat and mask with a voice scrambler. His allegiance to a superior who cares little for him and is using him.

[01:39:15] His nihilistic outlook on life because his wife and unborn child died. Okay, I could go on and on. But I did find him compelling as the kind of sort of truthful version of himself, Young Il, a.k.a. Player 001. Especially when he questioned the morality of Gi-hun's plan. I don't necessarily think Inho's questions need to be taken seriously, considering he watches people get slaughtered during Red Light Green Light while sipping alcohol and listening to a cover of Frank Sinatra.

[01:39:42] But I did find that there's a moral debate to be had about Gi-hun's decision independent of the Player 001 questions. Honestly, I think it would have been better to kill the Player 001 immediately well before Lights Out began. As morally repugnant as that sounds between watching people get murdered instead of protecting them and preemptively killing people to protect weaker people, it's better to go with the latter as opposed to what Gi-hun decided to do.

[01:40:09] Well, ironically, in a morbid sense, Inho, under his Player 001 persona, has the stronger argument. Especially when Player O's have repeatedly regressed into behaving in a sociopathic manner. Obviously, if there was a way to escape and avoid any form of violence, then I'd advocate for that course of action. That's why it's important to take Inho justifications and rationalizations with a giant grain of salt.

[01:40:37] Inho is manipulating people into being forced to choose between two awful actions, as a means to rationalize his nihilism and social Darwinist tendencies. So when I say his plan makes more sense than Gi-hun's, I mean in the context of being forced to choose between two bad options. Which has been a thematic idea that's occurred from the start, with the recruiter forcing impoverished people to choose between one piece of bread and a lottery ticket,

[01:41:03] or Squid Game forcing people to keep some allies and expel others during the mingle-slash-musical chairs game. I think Gi-hun's plan is the lottery ticket, and Inho's Let's Kill the O-Players so that we can win the vote and go home as the bread. Because the latter plan may not end the Squid Games, but it'll save more people who are participating in this current edition of the Squid Games. Either way, I found this moral debate to be interesting,

[01:41:31] and unlike other moral debates in other shows such as The Last of Us, I'm more open to hearing more from that side that opposes my view regarding this debate. Well, here's the thought. I mean, saying that, yeah, we can win and go home, that's the bread, that'll save more people. No, you're absolutely right. Yeah, that will save more people. One thing I was wondering as you're reading through this is, what if they had decided, okay, they successfully get the guns from the soldiers, and then they go, eh, let's just kill all the O's and then take a vote?

[01:42:02] That's dark, but I mean, that's really dark. I mean, they wouldn't even have to kill all the O's, just kill like 10 of them, right? Yeah, just kill a few. I wonder if the powers that be would have let that happen, even though they just killed a bunch of their soldiers, you know? Anyway. Interesting, though. Okay, so he goes on to say, I did smile when Gwem Ja stopped her son from joining the Rebel Alliance, led by Gi Hoon, because she knew her son would be hopeless in battle.

[01:42:29] She kind of reminds me of my own mom with her sense of humor and firm tone of voice when telling her son, don't do anything stupid. I'll probably cry for over a minute if she dies. Oh, I don't want her to die. I know. I did find this episode thrilling and exciting to watch, despite having criticisms of the writing and logic, which you guys have done an excellent job of pointing out, but not at the expense of what you enjoyed during an episode. But the ending was incredibly sad.

[01:42:56] Gi Hoon's friend Jung Bae dying and player 246 with the sick daughter getting shot made the earlier deaths in this season heart-wrenching for me. I know David didn't feel as much emotional weight with these deaths as the one in season one. My personal opinion is that the first season deaths had more set up and were more of a sad waiting game. That eventually the other proverbial shoe would drop and there'll be a thematic payoff, which there was.

[01:43:23] However, these season two deaths were more immediate and random. They died in a way that made them seem more helpless and lacked control, especially young me during the mingle game. I'm happy that I was right about the boat captain. He was very suspicious once the game started, especially during his conversation with the lone shark during the rainstorm. I'm happy I got that one right because the boat captain seemed too nice in my opinion. I'm super impressed with how great of a job Jason, David, Daphne, Veronica,

[01:43:52] aka Ronnie, Jenny, Ryan, and Karen did at discussing the different moments, characters, themes, and story elements for this season. Great job on this podcast, guys. See y'all in season three, the final season. Dun, dun, dun. As a side note, I'm happy this isn't being dragged out and this show is only three seasons with a definitive conclusion. Player four, five, seven, Rinaldi. I'm just kidding. I would never do something like this ever. No, thank you. Thanks for those days, Rinaldi.

[01:44:21] Thanks, Rinaldi, and those insights were awesome. Yeah. I saw him last week and I kind of reminded him that we were doing this, so I'm glad that he was able to get something in. Yeah, me too. All right, we got a couple calls. Here's Sam, who's been calling in almost every episode, and that's awesome because Sam's awesome, and I'm glad you called in. It was really cool. Maybe you can come and guest for the final season. That would be really cool. Yeah.

[01:44:52] Love Sam. That's what she's got to say. Dun, dun, dun. We survived season two of the Squid Game. And to Jenny's point and a lot of other people's feedback, so did a lot of the characters in the show, which is very different from season one. I'm okay with it, I think, because I know the next part's going to come out in a few months and we're going to get the final conclusion. So, like, final conclusion, same thing. But, like, I'm interested to see where they go with it. And thank you so much for the pod. It's amazing.

[01:45:22] I mean, I know I say that every week. It's just true. Like, it's fantastic. I'm so excited to watch season three and to hear what y'all have to say. It's just really cool. And I really appreciate it and getting the different insights. And it's just really awesome. Like, I know that the voting in the show is a little bit controversial with fans. And I totally get that because it is repetitive. For me, I guess, the tension and the thrill of the voting

[01:45:50] just hits viscerally every time for me. Unlike in season one, in season two, there are a bunch of players, the exes, that have wanted to go home since they found out that they were in the murder games. But, essentially, they're being held hostage by the majority, the O's. And it's a type of helplessness in this life-or-death situation that just, I don't know, it just sets my teeth on edge. I think even more so as we witness a version of this happening in America right now,

[01:46:19] it is just such an interesting thing to have happen. Speaking of things that set my teeth on edge a bit, I didn't want to put this in other feedback because I didn't want to ruin anyone's viewing experiences. I totally understand the controversy with the actor who plays Thanos and the taboo of using marijuana in South Korea. As an American, I don't care. And I totally understand that's our culture, not theirs. And I respect that. I'm a little concerned that that is the actor

[01:46:48] that is getting all the controversy. Like, he's not going to, like, premieres and interviews and stuff because it's so controversial. Meanwhile, there's a couple of sexual predators in that cast that have been known to be sexual predators. And I'm a little concerned that that's not making the news. Like, you have to dig into some of the advocacy groups and to see these articles. Like, the actor who plays Inho, he's been known for years. He's been accused of sexual coercion by his female co-stars and crew.

[01:47:16] The actor who plays Player 100, he's the one who's also the leader of the O's other than Thanos. And he has known to have a quote-unquote addiction to underage sex workers. So he's a pedophile, allegedly. And, like, I would have preferred more of that also being in the news. And especially in the context of the sociopolitical culture of South Korea

[01:47:43] and femicide being an enormous problem in South Korea, as it is in other places, especially America, too. I just, it just bothers me. It's a little, like, off that that's also not being discussed. But, again, money speaks. So, like, for me, I am not a fan of cancel culture. I will always, like, I'll watch season three. It just bothers me to, even on the rewatch, of seeing their faces and knowing that this is the face of someone who abuses or hurts people,

[01:48:12] especially children, allegedly. It's just hard for me to watch it in interviews and all that stuff. So just putting it out there. And then, okay, on to the show. I don't want to bum everyone out. I'm with you guys. Thanos is such a great character. And he's a bad guy, right? Like, it feels good when he gets his in the end. And at the same time, just another personal quirk of mine is, like, I'm going to miss what he brought to the show.

[01:48:41] Like, RIP our little chaos demon. I thought he did a really great job. In the beginning, I did laugh on the second watch when everyone in the main room was obviously confused about the announcement of the new dead players. Like, they just watched a bunch of the other players go into the restrooms and then all of a sudden people are dead. Like, they have no idea what the massacre that just happened. So I'm just going to chuck a little bit at that. Dark humor.

[01:49:09] The decision about whether or not to attack first was such an interesting one because we see them having this movable plane of what's acceptable. Like, on the one hand, they say there's mostly women and old folks on the X side as opposed to the O side. And at the same time, they're willing to sacrifice those very same people in order to win the game. Like, to get the creators and all this stuff.

[01:49:37] I think Inho says it sacrificed a few to save the many. Oof. That is a really rough thing to sit with. And then, you know, there is, like, this nice little Easter egg in there where Ji-hun says that the game creators are up there when they're discussing this in the circle. And everyone looks up except for Inho. Because, yes. He knows. He knows exactly where his cameras are. Speaking of Inho, I wonder how he's going to explain to his guards why, how he led a revolt to murder them all.

[01:50:07] And, I mean, I have some questions. I'm dying to know his plan. What was his plan once he learned of Ji-hun's plan? What was with the drama of faking his death? It was twisted that he used the extra ammo and the gun that, that Ji-hun gave him to finish off their allies. So I just thought that was really an interesting twist. And I do think Jenny was right about Dae-ho lying about being a soldier. Especially how he's terrified and doesn't bring them the ammo back.

[01:50:35] Part of American military culture is no man left behind. So there's a bond that us civvies can't ever really understand. But even traumatized and terrified, a soldier or veteran would go back to their unit or their squad. It's just built into them. And we see that in Hyun-joo. Like, she only stays because it's inferred by Ji-hun-jo that they need her. Speaking of good people gone, RIP Jung-bae. You were always going to die. We kind of knew Ji-hun's friends in the games don't fare well. Very sad. The actor is amazing.

[01:51:05] Really, just really, really sad. Quick thing. What was that fast outfit change with the front man? And where was that outfit stored? Did he go back to his rooms to change? Like, it didn't seem like there was that much time. So where do you guys think this is going to go in season three? Is Ji-hun going to be forced to go back into the games? Is he going to be forced to watch the games? Which I think would be extra twisted since he's attached to some of these guys. What do you guys think? Hmm. I have no idea. I think it's more likely he'll be back in it.

[01:51:36] Yeah. I think so, too. Sam brought up some great points. I thought it was really bizarre when everyone was looking up at the camera except Inho. And no one seemed to notice. Hmm. I really like that, too. I like that moment because, like I said, it felt like they were just thinking outside the Matrix for a minute.

[01:52:04] And looking up was a great way to visually express that because we don't usually look up a lot of times, you know? There's a game I'm playing right now where this class of people builds bridges on the skyscrapers because they know that people won't look up there and see. And that's how they get hide from them. So, anyway, just visually, I thought it was cool. So, anyway. Thanks, Sam.

[01:52:31] Now we have a call from David, who I'm really glad called in. And he, I meant to mention this at the top, but he was supposed to be on with us. But he's got this new job and they called him in and we couldn't schedule it. So, hopefully David will be back actually on the podcast a lot for season three. But here's his call. Hello, Jason, Daphne, and Veronica. David here. Sorry I couldn't be with you for this entire episode.

[01:52:56] But really looking forward to hearing all of your observations about it and chipping in a few of my own. I thought overall this was the best episode of this half season. The first one that really lived up to the quality of the entire first series. It had drama, action, some surprises, and packed a real emotional punch at the end. Really the first time that it was totally new. And I had that all-in feeling of not knowing what would happen next.

[01:53:38] We were waiting for the game controllers to instigate a deadly fight in the dorm. To create drama and cull down the numbers. Finally they do. And we learn what the reason was behind the O and X blue and red symbols. It created teams with internal loyalty and external hatred. To the point they've sort of forgotten what they're even fighting for and against. It's just us versus them. A powerful statement on today's politics, including here in the United States.

[01:54:08] While I don't necessarily love a ton of gun violence. It's upsetting to watch. I felt it did serve the story and wasn't gratuitous. One thing we find out is the gamers have a lot of soldiers. And they also view them as totally expendable. There's another statement on modern capitalism. Only the richest at the very top are truly protected. Even at the cost of the deaths of many of their immediate subordinates. The drama of the front man.

[01:54:36] Whether or when he would betray Gi-hun and the rest of the group. Was very compelling. He killed a lot of his own soldiers along the way. The last 10 minutes or so we could see where it was headed. But before that I think his loyalties and motivations were still murky enough to be in question. The death of Gi-hun's close friend, Young Bai, really hit me hard. It was the first one that did in this season 2. In which they've had less success I would say establishing new characters whom we really care about.

[01:55:07] But in this character, in this relationship, they did establish that. With a half season to go, I do have to feel like an ultimate showdown is coming between Gi-hun and In-ho. Maybe in the squid game itself. With Jun-ho and his merry band of interlopers as a wild card. Some questions were left with at the end of season 2. Gi-hun still doesn't know the identity of the front man.

[01:55:30] How and when might he figure out that player 001 was actually his adversary rather than his ally all along? How and when might Yun-ho and his mercenaries figure out that their boat captain has betrayed them? And will they actually have an impactful part to play in this story? So far, they have been spectacularly ineffective. What about the Richie Rich Hogs, the VIPs for whom this whole spectacle is being staged?

[01:55:59] Will they get their comeuppance this time around? And as we all know, this entire story is an allegory for the rapacious capitalism that we're all living through in our societies. Can it actually be improved in some substantial way? In the end, will this turn out to be a story of hope or of despair? Anyway, hope you've had a blast talking about both this episode and the whole season. Can't wait to join you for season 3 coming soon.

[01:56:29] Yay! That was awesome. Yeah, that was really good. I feel like David should be doing that on his own podcast feed once a week. Like, just little mini recap thoughts from David. Yeah! Yeah! That was great.

[01:57:00] All right, that is our show. Thanks so much for listening, everybody. I really mean that. It's been really fun to see that we have, you know, a lot of people listening to the podcast. And I hope you guys enjoyed it. Next up, Squid Game Season 3, Episode 1, The Return of Thanos. That's weird. Yes! Yes! We don't know the titles.

[01:57:24] I have seen someone, like a fan-created video where they simulated how they resuscitated Thanos. And I'm just like...

[01:57:43] But going back to something that Sam said, like in her feedback, it is very interesting how South Korea's culturally, they look at different things because... Yeah, I've seen some interviews with the actor who played Thanos talking about it. I think I mentioned that already earlier. And he has a lot of shame for... I can't get where Sam... I think Sam was trying to say...

[01:58:13] She has an understanding because different people, different cultures value different things. And I can see that on a cognitive level, but I just can't get there. I'm just like, come on! It's no big deal! I mean, she is right too about some of the other actors being involved in different scandals. I didn't know about that. Yeah, that's all I can. But his is being treated like he's been ostracized for a long time.

[01:58:42] It used to be like that here. Yeah. So he seems like he's cool and might be coming back to doing new music and doing more acting. So we'll see. I went and listened to some of his stuff on iTunes and it was... It's pretty cool. Definitely much better than his rapping in the show. Oh, yeah. You've got to watch some of the interviews of him talking about what he did to try to make the character come across the way it did. Because it was good. I read some of that.

[01:59:11] If you want to write in or send us a voice message about it, you can find us and all our contact information at podcastica.com. And while you're there, be sure to check out our other shows. I'm still loving listening to Lucy and Jason go through the rewatch of The Walking Dead. And it's been fun because you guys have been bringing guests on. I think that's been really fun too to hear other people's thoughts.

[01:59:38] That's the one I was going to mention because at the top I mentioned a bunch of shows that are coming up. But right now, that's my other baby. And we started this whole thing back in 2010 podcasting about The Walking Dead. We ended up getting to go on the show as zombies. And we interviewed most of the actors. And it's just been an amazing ride. We had a get-together here in San Francisco for the finale.

[02:00:02] And my co-host Lucy and I decided a little over a year ago now to go back and start from the beginning and rewatch it. Having, you know, knowing everything that's happened and looking at it in the larger context. And it's been a lot more fun than I thought it was going to be. It's been pretty cool. We're at season four right now. So if you're at all a Walking Dead fan, I recommend you come check that out too. You're getting closer to my favorite episode. It's getting good now. It's getting really good episodes. I think you and I might have the same favorite episode. Mine's season five, episode one. Yes!

[02:00:32] Yeah. Yes. That was... Ugh. I have rewatched that episode more times than I can even count. More than any other episode. It's a good one. It's so good. All right. That is our show. Thanks for listening. Fight the power!