7: "Stick to the Team" (Squid Game S1E4)

[00:00:00] Hey everybody, welcome to the podcast, I'm Jason and I'm David And I'm Veronica In this episode we're covering Squid Game Season 1 episode 4, stick to the Team, stick to the Team everybody Welcome back Veronica, glad you have it back, I'm I promise nothing

[00:01:10] You two could be on your own, although you could be on my team I'm playing for myself at the end of the day guys sorry Alright, I know I'm not making an alliance with I get at least pretend to be a little bit of a crap

[00:01:28] I'm so full of crap, I'm such a wini, I'm such a team player like I would not be cut throw at all I went to the Squid Game the challenge, you can go to

[00:01:38] I forgot what it's called, Squid Game the challenge casting dot com or something like that and enter to be in season 2 And I started to fill it up but you have to do a video so I have to find time to do that

[00:01:52] And they want you to tell them how you would play And what you would do with the money So I have to be like, I would be ruthless Are you gonna tell them you're a pondcaster? Yeah, I mean, I think

[00:02:06] I can't avoid that ultimately, you know, if I got very far into it and which case I'm pretty sure that I would not be able to go on right because they don't want us giving away behind the scenes details about the show

[00:02:18] Right, maybe, don't you think maybe it would maybe it would be a plus because of Just it's just an interesting backstory. Yeah, I figure out mine as well just put it right out there But I think my chances are very low of getting on because

[00:02:34] You know, there's probably a million people applying But I have to choose somebody if yeah, they got to somebody it's worth the shot I think it would be awesome even if just one of the listeners got on so everyone hearing me double-logdaria That would be great

[00:02:49] It'd be cool All right, so let's get into this week's episode Squid Game season 1 episode for stick to the team I forgot last week that I had said I was gonna read summaries of the episodes

[00:02:59] Just in case people are listening to us, but have it gone back and rewatched even though I think you should so here's a summary

[00:03:05] Player one eleven a disgraced doctor secretly works with a handful of guards to harvest organs from dead players to sell on the black market and return for information on upcoming games When ducks who kills a player accusing him of taking extra food

[00:03:21] The guards do nothing to stop him and the prize money's value is increased Realizing they can freely kill other players to increase the prize money ducks soon is gang start a massive riot after lights out Resulting in players attacking each other

[00:03:34] Guihun's group survives and exchanges names to build trust player one ninety nine is alley up dual and player 067 is Kang Sabiook Player o one because of his brain tumor has trouble remembering his name Player two twelve Name to hunt me now

[00:03:52] Has sex with ducks sue. I don't think she gave her name though, does she but anyway in the third game players are told the form groups of 10 For Guihun's team, Sabiook recruits player 240 a girl close to her age

[00:04:04] The game is real revealed to be tug of war on two raised platforms where a team wins by dragging the opposing team off of the other platform to their deaths Duck sue having learned of the game from player one eleven before hand picks only strong men and rejects

[00:04:19] Miniao who joins Guihun's team after duck sue's team wins their match handily Guihun's team struggles against another All male team So there's the recap and Veronica how was it to watch this one again in general? Did you like it?

[00:04:38] Yeah, I loved it and I'll just prep us this by I was really hesitant to do this podcast and to rewatch Like I wanted to listen to people analyze it, but I think I might have been one of those watchers that

[00:04:52] You know one of the recap because I didn't want to rewatch and I just want to encourage you is been I think so Enjoyable and more fascinating to go rewatch especially with

[00:05:04] You know the knowledge of the whole show but it'd been long enough that there were things I forgot like I'm loving it And I think this episode

[00:05:12] Even with the violence like the the upping of tension I just continued to find the show really fascinating on all the themes that it touches on And just thinking about how I might react if I was in those scenarios so that's my big plug to rewatch

[00:05:28] And yeah, the reason I liked this episode was how it really up to the tension we finally crossed over from You just need to win this game for yourself and and if you don't do well You die to suddenly players are

[00:05:46] Not only in the fight directly harming each other, but in tug of war their success is directly tied to the demise of other players And that's a whole new dynamic and I think that's really what fascinated me

[00:06:00] The change in this episode. It's true. Hi, didn't think about that yeah Yeah in the in red light green light if you made it across you were fine independently of anyone else and same thing with the delgona cookie game

[00:06:13] It's all about your own first off. Thanks for saying that I totally agree I I knew I wanted to cover the show because I remembered liking it, but I just forgot and

[00:06:23] How great it is and all the little details of how great it is to watch so yeah I'd recommend that people go back and watch it again with us Yeah, I totally agree with that

[00:06:33] I remembered that it was a great show, but didn't remember a lot of detail about it And I agree with you Veronica it's even better than I remembered So the rewatch or what this time is gonna end up being a multiple rewatch is totally worth it

[00:06:51] I thought this was an amazing episode The the show goes all of a sudden goes to a deeper level or just to put it in another way shit gets real

[00:07:01] And it went if you like if somebody had watched the first three episodes and you're like hey shit gets real next week They'd be like what? How could I get you a real? Yeah, I mean it was life and death

[00:07:14] But it was life and death within particular conditions and rules And all of a sudden it goes to this completely other place where anything goes and You realize there's no safety. There's no hiding behind the rules or

[00:07:30] You know the good conduct of others or within these narrow rules of the game. It's really anything goes and Every minute your survival is at stake And that is a deeper level then they went to before Yeah, it's even darker because

[00:07:46] It's seeing all that we'll talk about it more death but seeing all those guards just standing there watching as Everyone killed themselves and not lending a hand Just really show that they're not there for you at all Here on your own

[00:08:01] So I thought it was I maybe the best episode yet Just gripping twisted horrifying also I just It needs to be restated how visually stunning the show as how things are symmetrical like the workers stepping out of the rooms together

[00:08:17] In turning the scale and framing of the tug-of-war game just and the flickering lights of the right And then down to the little details like the marking of the coffin with the blood cross or even like the triangle circle square branded

[00:08:32] Bottles which is very apple. I feel like it's just so designed this show Which I find really adds to it. So anyway, I loved it All right, fucked up moment of the week Veronica I'm gonna go with number one-one ducks who

[00:08:49] Beating player 271 to death over a broken soda and then casually walking back to take the last sip of the soda seemingly just unbothered that he had just beaten a man to death

[00:09:04] Yeah, he he went from being a thug to just a deeply evil person this episode. I felt I hate him more than ever before

[00:09:14] I'm scared of him. Yeah, yeah, for sure. This is just psychotic. Yeah, I agree with you there and that's probably the best choice but I would give an honourable mention to Just the sudden Matter-of-fact appearance of the black market organ trade

[00:09:32] It was like whoa here's a dirty little side light that's going on the see me underbelly of this whole thing So I thought that was pretty shocking as well But also impressively enterprising Yeah, I mean they were just gonna go to waste so

[00:09:50] Yeah, I mean at least something something good is kind of a sense of unultable levels Maybe but it was like it kind of kind of works for everybody involved but it's so dark Yeah, absolutely. I mean for me

[00:10:05] When ducks who kills player 271 and the guards do nothing about it and then the fucked up part I mean that's all pretty fucked up but then more money comes down into the pig and they realize that killing each other outside the games counts just the same

[00:10:20] That was my fucked up one more week All right run it come on to go first Sure So my first point was just sort of on alliances and trust and I think all this started last episode

[00:10:38] So it's not new but we just got to see more of the evolution of that and I think I'll jump on what I feel like you guys talked about really well last week Is the dynamic and development of San Wu

[00:10:55] And sort of do you trust him? Do you not And so certainly there's the alliance of sort of our our heroes I guess

[00:11:06] Is what you have to call them in the context of this show and saying we've who last episode of the in reference at the beginning of this episode like

[00:11:14] He did seem to know or at least guess what that game was going to be and decided not to at least try to dissuades Gui-Hoon from taking the umbrella And he does seem somewhat remorseful at the beginning of this episode and I really agree with

[00:11:34] Where you guys sort of ended last episode discussing saying we sort of that His relationship with Gui-Hoon is complicated and I think maybe he had already realized very early on that at some point he was going to have to take out even people that

[00:11:51] He didn't want to and so maybe this was his early way of just sort of getting Gui-Hoon out of the way Um But it is complicated because he did seem remorseful. He did seem to have some guilt He apologized to Gui-Hoon although he didn't really fully explain

[00:12:08] the extent of what he was apologizing for like I think I did know What we were getting into and I still let you do it because saying he's like oh, how would you know? He's like well actually before you move on to another

[00:12:23] Aspect of this I'm curious David do you think he was actually remorseful? No, I actually disagree with you on that point I think he is acting

[00:12:31] Sully and self interest and now that they both survive that round he realizes he can still use Gui-Hoon as a as an ally I think the apologies a lie and completely relationship And he's very surprised to see him still alive

[00:12:50] Is that in the first shot that we see him? The way that the actor plays it I feel like it could go either way. I think Logically I agree with David, but it really did feel like he felt remorse so

[00:13:07] I'm not 100% over where David is but I kind of do lean more that direction, but I don't know I think and I totally like I think you could be correct David. I was reading it as

[00:13:20] I think the large swath of people are not triggered or true evil like ducks who is pretty like I think we could say he falls into the more like leaning evil, but I think saying Roo as most people We often do bad things Self-efficiently

[00:13:41] Not big bad things like risk someone's life like this, but I think most people don't do bad things with bad intentions They do it with selfishness and lack of sort of long sight into how you might impact others And I think first say woohoo

[00:13:57] I just saw him as complicated like he both would have found relief in Gui-Hoon being gone and also didn't really want to carry the responsibility of taking him out

[00:14:09] And so I guess I just see it as people are complicated and sort of both those things he can feel remorse and also have actively chosen the bad thing and would have also felt relief

[00:14:21] If Gui-Hoon didn't show back up, I don't know if I'm just talking in a circle and making any sense at all, but No, I think that's fair and make some sense and When they I guess what I am saying is when the choice came

[00:14:37] made the decision to betray Gui-Hoon Then when they're in between games he sort of has an electricity of feeling bad about it But I think you're well aware that he's going to make that cold blooded choice Continually Whenever it comes to him Versus anyone else

[00:14:56] Yeah, and so I think there still could be some like In a moment where he's not having to make a choice of feeling of oh, it's too bad that I even this way or something like that But he's still going to be that way. You know Right

[00:15:11] But he could just be completely strategizing and Ingraciating himself with Gui-Hoon acting this way to to fool him too It could be completely that he feels no remorse, you know, I don't think so but That could be it's hard to read him Sorry Good

[00:15:30] No, I mean, I think that was it and I think that almost to me seems consistent with who saying who is outside the arena too Like he was successful. He is smart I think he probably does care about his mother at least care about her opinion of him

[00:15:45] Maybe that's the more accurate thing but he does seem to feel a lot of shame That he's drug her down with him But that also didn't change his choices to continue to risk her assets or his own gain

[00:15:59] So I think he is kind of you know ultimately he's a really selfish guy But I don't think he takes pleasure in the chaos that he's soying I think he would prefer to be selfish and get ahead without hurting other people

[00:16:13] But he's okay with hurting other people if if that's the choice between himself or that maybe I would say and this goes along with the complexity in him that you're pointing out I think he also has some negative feelings towards

[00:16:29] Gui Hoon that showed up in the previous episode Gui Hoon is an uncomfortable reminder for him Of what his life was supposed to be and didn't turn out to be And the fact that they've arrived now as equals in this lowest possible human point

[00:16:47] I think there is at least a part of him that wants Gui Hoon out of the way so he does not have to see him anymore Absolutely, I agree with you there and

[00:16:59] Even you know you thought again like you who cannot resist even in this episode to talk about the genius saying woo And saying woo just like this time he cut him off really quickly and move the conversation on but I think

[00:17:12] That just great at him. I think for a variety of the reasons that you just referenced I think it's interesting their difficult friendship if we all end up on squid game the challenge and you guys just go on about how smart I am

[00:17:28] I'll just let it happen. It's fine Did remind me I think You know watching having just watched squid games the challenge and You know then going back and watching this episode of squid game I really saw some parallels between saying woo and my

[00:17:50] Just within gameplay that they're definitely I don't know that saying woo is like Completely at least in my opinion a completely flawed character, but I do think he will make decisions in the game

[00:18:03] To put himself first and I felt like a couple times we saw my do that. I don't think she was a bad person But I think she was there to play the game and also to present an appealing or at least non-revealing Front to people you know

[00:18:22] To keep things close to the best Yeah, because if you think of what all these Interpretation of saying woo it mean all y'all so really Seems to sort of hero worship I'm saying woo He's presented himself as this really stand up guy to all y

[00:18:40] But all y has some significant strength. He brings to the table and if I played this game I would do the same thing I wouldn't be one of these players just fully telling everyone my strategy and

[00:18:52] Even though I really admired those players in this season the ones that were just so fourth ride and Seemed honorable I can't see myself playing that way. I just think it would be too dumb Yeah, yeah Does that make me a bad person?

[00:19:11] I don't think so it's a game right These aren't your friends that you go into the arena with no one's dying You're all there because you agreed to play a game that one of you wants to win I think that changes the social

[00:19:25] Ethics of the situation a little bit in mind but if you look at at Gihun and Ali Possibly the old man they all seem pretty fourth right and so Um They do align with certain characters in the in the in the reality show that we just watched

[00:19:48] And so it's interesting to see the different types and to see in the reality show that some of those types made it pretty far I just I just don't feel like I would want to play that way, but

[00:20:00] The proof is in the pudding like some of them made it really far so anyway we shouldn't spend too much time on that So David So I wanted to talk about this new conflict

[00:20:11] That has appeared which is the life and death conflict within the room where they're all living And we never get too far in this show from societal commentary So I think this episode along with some great plot and character development and action also brought us some new

[00:20:31] Directions of social commentary And in this I think up until now we think it is a rules based order So you're gonna play these games there within certain rules. Yes, it came as a shock to you that it was life and death

[00:20:49] But it is very much controlled by the rules around you. It's even controlled by democratic rules it can be ended by a vote The Guards essentially represent the police or the military then force the laws and The life and death competition takes place within very narrow conditions

[00:21:09] Now we have this shocking moment in which juxtoo kills player 271 No one steps into help or stop him and suddenly we find out that everybody's on their own And we see this play out on their faces This is some more quickly than others

[00:21:28] Realize it but they all realize it pretty quickly whole different ball game So we thought we were in Sort of the gladiatorial games maybe a vanchant room where actually in the Lord of the flies And alliances take on a whole new meaning um

[00:21:47] 247 watchable mess takes on a whole new meeting But also it says a lot about the authorities um So Initially we don't quite know Not only that the situation exists but we don't know that it's been orchestrated gradually is this episode

[00:22:06] Plays out in various ways and we find out that this situation has been intentionally triggered By not preparing a distributing enough food to cause the players to fight over it

[00:22:17] And then being ready for what they're they call the special game so this actually is a game in itself And it's fascinating that they knew rightly that all you had to do was not provide enough food They knew there was gonna be a riot tonight right

[00:22:31] I think that's really interesting and they did it in two directions one is they really didn't provide enough food for everybody So everybody's sort of borderline starving a little bit Yeah, and then they arranged and allowed for some to get two portions and some to get none

[00:22:46] And understood people well enough to know that one did they arrange for that or did they just understand that it was probably I think they understood that that was gonna happen and did nothing to stop it. Yeah

[00:22:58] So where we get into the what I would interpret as this soil commentary is this is much as in a Capitalistic society The very rich intentionally widened the social divides and exacerbate the tensions between social groups So they end up fighting with each other, but not

[00:23:19] Working together or rebelling against the system itself And we have them sort of masterful moment you called out in which the elimination of two seven one is announced The toport adds more money everyone realizes at the same moment that not only does anything go

[00:23:39] But we all benefit from it least a little bit And Sung Wu is really the first to realize the new situation and Realize he has to work with teammates to organize their defense because he's willing to use a team concept as long as it

[00:23:56] Benefits himself, but I thought They said a lot about Not only the plot of this story, but about this stories and her rotation of society in a very contained incident I was thinking about just the interaction between Duxu and player 271 who

[00:24:23] Got no food comes over confronts him that's my food you just date Duxu laughs at him Holds up his half finished drink is this yours too. They fight and I thought that I was thinking about that is like the scene

[00:24:36] Sorry, the theme of resentment over unjust wealth disparity playing out on a smaller scale, but I think you're Interpretations much more fascinating where No, this is still just all the late peasants scrambling for scraps and Ignoring the real problem and finding that there is no rule of law

[00:24:55] Yeah, when they were stating they're so Sort of smug with their second soda and second egg when the reality was it was still a terribly Meager meal You know It wasn't still nothing like you just pointed out I mean

[00:25:11] Was nothing they were still starving too suddenly this show it feels like a prison movie in this Sequence, you know and it just goes to show that whatever context you're in is Where

[00:25:25] You'll do the comparisons with whatever you have on no matter what it's scale billionaires whoever has the biggest yacht But if you're in prison it's who got two eggs You know just as important absolutely and the fact about

[00:25:41] No laws and I was thinking oh crap okay, so for the rest of the time here like amaging myself in there How am I gonna sleep like suddenly it's a deadly place this storm So we're gonna have to do something about that

[00:25:54] So we're gonna get together in groups which they have done and I was thinking you could have one person You could trade Watches night watches and as soon as something went down you could have them wait your team up and take care of yourselves

[00:26:08] But then I thought well the a smart thing to do or at least try in the daytime is to Bring everyone together and say look we need some order in here so that we don't have to all go crazy And have no security and be

[00:26:21] Fearful of our lives so let's make up a law something like if at night anyone tries to kill anyone We all kill them That's our law, okay?

[00:26:30] Everyone agree and then I thought oh this is how laws and societies probably came about in the first place because back in Medieval times of fear in the woods and you meet someone else you're probably just immediately gonna try to kill each other You know it's just anarchy

[00:26:42] I don't know if that's exactly how it was but I think I've read things like that like you're just not safe and then you know Society and laws were built Because of a want and need to have

[00:26:53] Structures so that we could have security and safety and then turn our tensions to other things to progress ourselves Yeah, there's a movie called a margin call which is a really good movie that stemmed from that financial collapse

[00:27:09] With a really good cast and what it's about this company that has mismanaged their risk And they decide to exit the market before everyone else but I exiting the market They know is gonna trigger a financial collapse like 2008

[00:27:25] But at one point the basically the CEO of the company says Hey, it's just money the whole purpose of all this is to prevent us from having to kill each other to get something to eat It's a structure and It's a structure instead of chaotic violence and

[00:27:43] And the bigger a society gets the more you have to have that structure I always roll my eyes when people talk about tearing down the system or we shouldn't have

[00:27:53] There's too much government or it's like no we like we're in a really complex society of billions of people You have to have rules and order and and the kind of order that happens when the structure and the government that we do have

[00:28:08] Goes away is like warlords and you know, right just Dominate dominate that's the Prime Way of getting around is to find someone who's strong and playkate them so they'll protect you

[00:28:22] And then you try to dominate all the other groups and that's ducks who's way yeah, and if you think about What viscerally hit me is

[00:28:31] How afraid you would be if you're in that room and it and if you are someone like me who's basically a small nonviolent person Like it's all well and good to say we're gonna keep watch or hopefully maybe you can get the others to make a

[00:28:46] Collective rule but really what they probably all realizes I'm gonna have to literally fight for my life tonight Yeah, and if you're not well equipped to do that that's a frightening prospect Yeah, and another I mean I'm gonna move on to

[00:29:02] Building trust too because the episode I mean it's called stick to the team and it's a lot about players Trying to form connections with others because they need allies for the games

[00:29:14] And I thought it was interesting to see some of the different factors that play in in how and why they did that There's pure strategy So picking allies based on who you think would do best in the games or who might protect you

[00:29:29] Like player 212 minial cozying up to doxu Duck-su picking strong guys because he knows the next game is tug of war Saying woo saying to go pick guys because he thinks manner usually better which he when pushes back against but that's what he thinks

[00:29:48] So that's one thing just basically pragmatic there's allying with people that you relate to Because they're similar to you in some way like background gender age and so you feel more comfortable with them You already know about more about them, so they're not so unknown

[00:30:05] You know how to talk to them too. So it might be easier that's like Ali picking this guy who I assume is another pack of Stanie just by making some gesture There's sabiaq picking this girl who

[00:30:17] Seems kind of like her maybe you know same age same size same gender There's picking people that you feel for and you want to help or just because you like them and you vibe with them And I think that's Gehunster out of Jean-Lard large part he likes player 001

[00:30:37] He knows and likes saying woo Because he's an idiot I think he reaches out to sabiaq even though she's clearly from middleball and would be an asset I think his motivation is he feels for her because she's alone and he knows that ducks who is out together

[00:30:53] I think he's trying to help at least that's part of it And even allowing the girl that she picked like speaking up for her to stay on the team I think came from just his heart more than anything and

[00:31:07] All of them agreeing Gehunseengu Ali and the old man agreeing to stick together when they know the ride is coming That's because they've already bonded already not because that's the best group to do to Fight and then when they tell each other their names let's just

[00:31:22] Opening up further sharing personal details. That's a way of deep deep-ending that bond and connection So that's one Form of connecting then there's using people for your own pleasure, which ducks you does with two-twelf And that almost immediately betrays her of course

[00:31:40] She's an object to him and yeah, I was always saying about him his world isn't about trust Instilling fear and taking revenge and dominating and people are loyal to him because they fear him not because they trust him

[00:31:51] And if you cross him you'll come at you mob style J-hate So that this whole thing just is This is a little bit of a soapbox. I do that every once a while

[00:32:04] But it's just bringing home that many in the world feel like they're in a defensive fearful posture right now to me Because things feel scary and you get a lot of people feeling threatened and so they band together with people who are more similar to them And then

[00:32:19] People can tend to demonize or otherwise People outside of that circle and Go into that idea that society should be all about band you together being strong and dominating you know others And and I if I like watching this episode tapping into that fear I can almost

[00:32:38] Understand I can imagine lying to huddle together with a people I already know I can trust But I actually think the safest way forward Maybe I don't know about in the squid game, but in real life is to stay open to people try to be friendly and understanding

[00:32:53] Not to send into seeing anything unfamiliar as a threat We open up to people who don't seem that similar on the surface we can find Similar already is on a deeper level

[00:33:03] But if we just harden up and close ourselves off, we'll never get the opportunity to discover that I think our society's too tribal and that's actually dangerous. I think you know

[00:33:13] You could look at what I'm saying in Europe all year but it's dangerous to be too tribal will are all in this together And look at say be actually resist lying with Gihun and says I don't trust anyone Especially People low lives in here or whatever

[00:33:25] But he says you don't trust people here because you can you do it because you don't have anybody else And eventually she realized the truth of that and decides to widen her circle of trust

[00:33:35] least somewhat I mean of course not everyone deserves to be trusted but you build trust It's earned in stages and you have to want it and try for it and you know little by little So anyway, that's kind of what all of this had me thinking about

[00:33:52] As far as Groups of people and who you choose to let in and trust and things like that It's like a microcosm of it. I don't know though. Maybe in the squid game it does make more sense to just be more

[00:34:09] I don't know. I was gonna say maybe it does make sense to not trust as much But I would at least be Hoping in trying to make connections with people I think if you could make genuine connections with more and more people

[00:34:25] You would have a better chance of living through This dorm death throughout part of it I agree. I mean, I think I think coming together I hear your boy and I think another thing that popped out to me sort of

[00:34:44] Changes into that is like even with these groups that are Warming like I think there's more strength In saying who's approach of It's not necessarily people that are like him but people he's opening his heart to learning more about and certainly they could be stronger if they

[00:35:01] You know did more than just their little you know five person group or whatever and it does expand a little bit as they have to think about their team of 10 But I think that's a much stronger Bond than

[00:35:16] Ducks who's group that is bonded based on we're similar we're strong, but we're all here because we're scared or because we Hate the same thing um and so sort of the reasons behind why their groups are forming

[00:35:31] Even though surface level it seems like duck suits team would be much physically stronger There are a much higher risk of just falling apart because they don't have anything Other than wanting to win bonding them together right I mean that's what I hope is true, but bonding through

[00:35:52] mutual hate can actually be a very powerful thing so I don't know I mean yeah I hope you're right like the mob usually gets taken down doesn't it? I don't know No that's what happens in the movie

[00:36:10] Yeah, it doesn't it doesn't feel like that's what's happening in real life But what I keep hoping the jury's out like what will happen yeah All right Veronica what you got next So I guess yeah, I mean I think

[00:36:27] for me and we only get to see part of this this episode which is the beginning of the tug-a-word game But I think the tug-a-word game really Makes me the most emotional of anything we've seen yet because of the sort of tragedy of This game if you win

[00:36:46] You have to The people on the other team essentially and with the prison fight I think they're how keep calling it a prison fight because to me just like you said it does feel so

[00:36:59] Reminiscent of like a prison riot so the the night fight or the special game like was They had crossed over into harming other players in that But Feesably there were a swath of people that either didn't engage in the fight

[00:37:13] Hit or sort of only fought to defend themselves so there are players that have not had to cross into the realm of you know harming another player up to tug-a-word and at that point either You win tug-a-war and

[00:37:31] in the moment of celebrating your win you're also realizing I just pulled 10 people to their death There's no way to escape that either that happens or or you're the person that got pulled to your death And so I think this the introduction of this game

[00:37:49] Is it really changes what's happened up to this point and is really I just sat with that I think thinking how would I Carry that going forward how would I carry that relief mixed with

[00:38:04] You know, especially if you're at the front of that line you're the last person to look these people in the eye as you pull them across the edge And that to me was just absolutely so upsetting

[00:38:17] I still this episode and then certainly the next episode as we follow up on what happens in the rest of the tug-a-word game If there was any moment that I thought back to in squid game it was that moment of

[00:38:31] Sort of that those mixed emotions that the players are having to process As the result of this game and I just think it's fascinating And terrifying I think as scares me worse than anything we've seen yet if I had to be in these games

[00:38:46] I couldn't imagine being on I don't know if I would be this way maybe a little but I could imagine at least some players not giving it their all because They can't bring themselves to

[00:38:58] Yeah, yeah, very very upsetting unless you're playing against duck sews team and then it's like yeah Yeah, I think you'd feel a little less conflicted there And at least I don't think he lets that sort of thing permeate him but I do wonder

[00:39:17] You know what the level of Permiability of the souls of the rest of his gang is you know Certainly they seem Ready and willing to jump in and the prison riot, but He went straight to that woman who told on infre taking an egg and just

[00:39:33] Repeatedly stabbed her in the throat and he killed the guy in the first place laughed about it. I mean, I don't I don't think anybody in my eyes could come back from that. I think you're a ways to space at that point Yeah Absolutely

[00:39:50] And I think the other thing that was Interesting to me About this whole scenario of tug of war is everyone Assumed well, well ducks Duck so ducks song

[00:40:03] Ducks too. Ducks too. His old team. I mean, they they knew they needed to build a strong team like he and the doctor knew what was coming But no one else really knew that none of the games up into this point

[00:40:15] Had really been based on physicality and so I really think it was that fight that scared everybody into thinking We have to be strong from here on out But I just thought it was interesting how that

[00:40:28] Immediately it came up and it seemed like you who was the only one still being reasonable saying You know, well, there's other things besides berth strength that can be really beneficial in this but saying we went and bend on that at all

[00:40:41] But we see at least in the part that we see of their team is that You know, they were against 10 men on the other side and they didn't immediately get pulled off I mean, I can't imagine many of our listeners that didn't immediately press play

[00:40:56] On the next episode just see the result, but but even with just what we saw You know, they were putting up quite the fight and again it's everything up to this point Has it been really all physicality? It's been a lot of being smart about playing the game

[00:41:15] And I thought it was interesting even in this game where it seemed like it was going to be brute strength That that's not the whole story. It necessarily the whole way yeah

[00:41:27] I think the other thing that I just loved about it just stylistically was the way they sort of laid over laid Player ones instructions as they acted it out. I just thought that was a fun one Yeah, I thought the tug of war was brilliant

[00:41:46] It is a children's game. I remember playing it as a kid But as you say for the first time it's contest of physical strength And teamwork and It is the first time we have a game of direct opposition which follows directly as you say after the fight

[00:42:06] One thing I noticed is that the tug of war is organized for exactly 80 players Now maybe that could have been adjustable based on what happened, but it kind of gives you the idea that the Special game was closely controlled and organized To the riot yeah to produce

[00:42:27] County how many people yeah I think so Nothing seems to be left a chance in the or because it's 18s of eight and there happens to be 80 people left Yeah eight teams of ten now maybe you could have a chance of that

[00:42:39] But but it would have to be an even number and and to make sense We're also getting the first game here that will eliminate an exact number of players rather than a random number So we know we're going exactly from 80 to 40 at this point and

[00:42:58] Also wanting to touch on what the strategies were for Ilnam which was great it kind of reminded me of of growing Which is very similar like where you have a lot of strong people to be rowers

[00:43:14] But that's not the only or main thing. It's teamwork and strategy and synchronization You know all the team boats are full of strong people But who works together the best so his formula was The leader who has to face the other leader strongly and inspire his own team

[00:43:35] The anchor who has to be strong and dependable The placement of the rope alternating for strength and the way you hold the rope and stand And then resistance at the beginning to Really throw the other team off their game

[00:43:52] And I thought the best moment of the whole game was when they pound over the whole team When they're all leaning back resisting and he's smiling and you see Yeah, you see how much he's enjoying it everybody else is like thrilled to be there look on his face

[00:44:09] What did you think about geohoon being the leader? I think I was sort of I think I would have expected Different he really felt like a hero to me in this episode more than ever Especially when he jumped into defend Sabioc

[00:44:30] Ducks who was like what do you know in man? We're just trying to it's then the herd and she he's like she's on our team now or whatever It's like oh man like if you didn't like Geohoon in the first episode which I can totally understand

[00:44:43] I would think most people would like love him in that moment, you know, and so then it more fally for him to be in front And he sticks up for the old man to be on their team

[00:44:52] He sticks up for the rush of to listen to his ideas. I think I was more surprised that saying who did it? Well, I would just surprise he trusted him as the leader and that saying who did it when I put himself

[00:45:07] As the leader. I think that's what surprised me I think he's sort of he I think he's sort of working the kind of guy that leads from behind you know Yeah, so I had thoughts about it kind of tell my thoughts

[00:45:26] Yeah, I loved it. I thought it was such just the whole sequence was stunning What first when it's revealed because they all have to choose their teammates and you eat none of us know what it's gonna be

[00:45:39] And then when the announcer comes on and says it's tug of war. I think Sabiok was like oh fuck Even to be the virus getting like I chose this scrawny girl damn

[00:45:52] And then to see the scale how high up these platforms are and all the little elements just make it the most brutal Intense fucked up tug of war ever you have to pull your opponents off the platform for this long drop

[00:46:06] There's like gun to start the game which is intense and appropriate They're all cuffed to the rope when you pull the other team off a Gettin comes down And then just the game itself anyway is a taxing and straining game

[00:46:24] David you said it's a kid's game, but if you're in a dull it's it's a killer game because oh we used to have corporate games when I worked at Apple

[00:46:32] And we played a bunch of silly games like five of us would stand together on two long slats with ropes that we would hold like two long skis and you'd have to work in unison to try to race the other

[00:46:44] Team or catch water balloons dumb things like that, but we'd have the tug of war and that was always Intense it was in the sand and we would sweat and turn red and our backs would hurt in our hands

[00:46:55] Would just be red and sworn you know, it would just really take a lot out of you and we'd be sore the next day I think we would also strategize a little bit about like all just doing burst of Polt ganks together

[00:47:09] But anyway, it's it's an intense game so so we see ducks use team of burly dudes is the first up and they win and I was kind of surprised we didn't see the other team hit the ground because it's such a brutal show

[00:47:23] We just see them fall off, but then they did this Disturbing but artfully done pan across and you see them all just letting their life list below And then then you see the guards come in and start boxing them up and

[00:47:38] The one puts a cross in blood on a coffin which I guess that was the guy who was still kind of alive and was he marking him for a possible organ Exturbing that's what I think out of that it's also That is not a good way to die

[00:47:53] Like yeah, at least the other people like and redlight green light you just get shot from afar and it's over Yeah, but this is you have to fall the three or four stories or whatever and hit the ground

[00:48:03] brutal you'd hope you died immediately. Yeah, but this guy didn't yeah, so then The announcers just casually of course reading off all the eliminated players numbers And we see Gihun's team in a line sitting cross leg at like kindergarteners waiting for their turn

[00:48:21] More juxtaposition to the child like in the horrifying and they look nervous as fuck of course Like oh our team is weak and so this is such great tension building there to show a team built of strong

[00:48:36] A holes easily beat and then know that our team are heroes who are a rag tag bunch our next That's a great setup and then then it adds this old man's time to shine and With him I feel like it's always like is he he seems so lovable

[00:48:54] But is he just a liability like are we keeping him around at our own peril? And so here it seemed like no, okay, here he comes in he's got some he seems really confident about this

[00:49:05] This idea the way he's describing it. It sounds so tactical and and they're the way they're showing it It's the end when they say lift your abdomen to the sky and push your throw your head back until you can almost see the groin of the person behind you

[00:49:18] It's almost poetic in the camera is panning over them and so then when they um it works and you can see the other team What what and then He's talking about catching a moment when they're opponents rhythm breaks and

[00:49:34] And geohong goes out our chance which that's a little bit telegraphic, but I guess it's fine And then they start going oh bobbing back and forth and pulling them across you're like yes, yes, it's winning And then it stops working

[00:49:46] So it's like a sports movie really. It's like oh fuck and you see that that red flag in the center is a great Representation so you can tell whether they're winning and losing which is how tug or works

[00:49:58] And so then saying who comes up with this new strategy on the spot that they'll take three steps forward towards the ledge Presumably to let the other team fall back and I thought that's interesting for saying we're because it's Sort of

[00:50:14] Exposing some vulnerability to catch your team off guard and then striking you know we presume that kind of goes with him Potentially But then I didn't remember that it cut off right there. It's like what and it's very it's

[00:50:29] Kind of really to have a cliff hanger as one team is about to fall off of a ledge Well, I think what we're seeing throughout these competitions is that the The ability to think outside the paradigm of the game is very valuable

[00:50:45] And so if you think about the old man and red light green light He figured out what the game was about before anyone else And while everybody else was frozen and fear he was going forward With Jaxu

[00:51:01] He figured out that the paradigm of the prison or whatever you want to call it is different than before anyone else did That I can kill somebody with impunity And I think that's what the old man brings. He's not bringing physical strength, but he has a different perspective

[00:51:19] And that can be valuable. Yeah, even licking the cookies goes in without a little bit totally He figured out a different way to do it Minion and that game Figure out a different way to do it. Yeah, she was cheating maybe but by he's the needle

[00:51:34] Well, and Ducksu cheated in Tug-a-war But it kind of got handed to him, but he got information about what the next game was going to be Right well and possibly Player one also figured out how to stop the special game the night fight

[00:51:50] I don't know I mean because they did and just on 80 players and they were watching the heat mat But it seemed like when he was up there Screaming from the top it won slowed everyone who was fighting it slowed people down a little bit people stop to look

[00:52:07] And the gate of the front man like pauses firm in it Right as he's listening to that and Then radios to stop it and so maybe that's another incident where oh of one was using

[00:52:22] You know it could come across as he's just old at C-Nile and that's the only thing he could think to do but that's what it seemed like He did have an impact

[00:52:31] Once again in one of the games and I don't know why the front man stopped it then But it did seem related and as far as the old man is concerned in this strategy

[00:52:44] You know I thought oh they're kind of making us feel like he's more of an asset than we realized But actually He's not because the strategy didn't work but then I was like well actually I think if you know presuming They win and they don't die that

[00:52:59] You could say both strategies saying moves and The old man's were essential in getting that victory. I think his strategy definitely did work teamwork makes the dream work I mean without that strategy they just would have been pulled that's what I'm saying yeah, yeah

[00:53:13] Right you need to know whether it's ultimately leads to victory or not Right but on its own it they needed something more they need to teamwork Right they needed that and And something more for sure I I think You know with everything in this show being an archetype

[00:53:32] I think one of the things he represents Is our dismissal of the old People who are old who are retired they don't have anything to offer our culture worships youth

[00:53:46] And and he's showing he has some experience and perspective that no one else has that's valuable even though he's old He's my hero And also I'll just add in there this could be one of those shows that unexpectedly kills the hero halfway through

[00:54:05] Like you know certain Alfred Hitchcock movies or something Totally once Rob Stark went down anything can All right Do want to we've understood something else David sure so I want to talk about one more archetype which is um

[00:54:28] In my opinion doc Sue what he really represents in this show is organized crime As a force in society that's the world he came from and that's really what he replicates here in this Control environment so

[00:54:46] He forms a group that takes from their fellow players by force rather than respecting rules or fairness They openly intend to win by killing their opponents rather than by playing the structure games the game of life They operate in this environment with through intimidation and violence

[00:55:05] They get an unfair or you could say criminal advantage with advanced knowledge of the next game from the doctor in Exchange for physical protection so that's classic, you know mob protection racket um Doc Sue betrays and excludes minio So no honor among thieves there

[00:55:28] They tend to win on brute strength rather than subtlety or strategy And to a point that was touched on earlier Doc Sue is the one Participant in the tug of war or his team at least who seems excited about killing the other team

[00:55:47] Right everybody else is motivated by their own survival. I don't want to be killed But he yells out die He is excited about killing them And that's the way that they're gonna win and I think that's in contrast to every other team

[00:56:04] And two 12 minio fits right in there after the riots She's over with the group going hey we killed 27 people like casually excited about it right It's another fucked up moment of the week Absolutely and then invites and ducks you to go

[00:56:24] Have sex in the bathroom as a celebration of the 27 people they just held yeah Yeah, and that's another yeah well I guess that's already I was talking about building trust but I think for

[00:56:37] That was just him using her for his own pleasure and that's it, you know he doesn't need her for anything else As far as I can tell or he doesn't think he does that may be short sighted or you need more term thinking

[00:56:51] But that that force of organized crime is present in every big society And as we said earlier sometimes it's more less successful or the

[00:57:02] Force of law is more less successful against it, but it seems to be present and every society yeah and I think in a lot of countries It ends up being the government

[00:57:13] You know what I mean if if it's a corrupt government basically that level that type of organized crime has risen to the top and dominate and taken over I agree since we were talking about ducks who In the bathroom with two 12

[00:57:32] At one point she said to him you betray me and I'll kill you and he said you're the reason that I think I might die tonight And then that got them both all hot and I didn't get it What was that

[00:57:47] I don't understand that line be there it seemed kinky whatever Maybe it was a weird translation Yeah, all right This next but Veronica got one I guess just sort of tangential to that of

[00:58:06] I thought I had a feel for player two 12 like I thought she was sort of using this Crazy over the top personality as a manipulation tactic I guess I gave her too much credit. I thought she at least

[00:58:27] would have been aware of the high probability of ducks who immediately Sort of casting her off and so I had a hard time believing it When they were doing the the team picking her just immediately crying and begging of him Her characters just so bizarre to me

[00:58:52] In general and not believable Well, what I read from her is that she thinks she can control him with her sexuality and she She or estimated that power over him That's it that she's working with what she feels like she can I guess

[00:59:15] Yeah, you know. I don't know I just don't buy her actions I know there was some stuff last episode that was just sort of weird when she was screaming in the bathroom to cover

[00:59:27] Yeah, for oh six seven goofy that was sort of over the top but this just felt I don't know I just didn't believe it even the most eccentric of women I know that I don't know I just feel like most women would have

[00:59:46] No not possibility and not been completely shocked by it. She's like every ex girlfriend ever had no I'm just kidding No, she like I just I do feel like there are people who are just they just like emotionally

[01:00:12] A surpick you know or lash out or kind of poke get you with their emotions and that's kind of how I feel about her just like I Would hurt just to be around her you'd get jabbed and poked and pulled and everything and I feel like there

[01:00:27] I've met people kind of like that I agree with you though. She's working with what she's got all the sudden in this episode physical strength Those at a premium and that's not her strength So she's trying to manipulate the strongest person in their to protect her

[01:00:45] Is gutted everything except what she's not and yeah, I think that's a famous squid game line And she so she goes and gets on Gihun's team just kind of barges in because

[01:00:56] The old man failed to bring anybody back and I wasn't too surprised at that because he just seems frail And who's gonna like some frail guy who's like seemingly out of his mind comes up and asks to be on his team

[01:01:12] Maybe the recruitment strategy wasn't so smart they only had 10 minutes to work with but they could have had maybe the Stronger recruiters going out and getting trying to get a couple people at once, you know

[01:01:22] Yeah, that's probably true and I think as some who predicted she's the last left over I mean she put it just into their team because there's no or else to go. Yeah, it was an interesting dynamic for sure Okay, David So I want to talk about

[01:01:41] Gihun's character journey which is Basically the at the center of this show and I think carrying us from episode to out so we've talked about it some already But we're still in a place where he has not lost his humanity

[01:01:59] He still wants to think the best of the man he admire sung Wu and the episode begins with him remembering The betrayal but then you can see at at the start of Dalgont go in your game But you can see him

[01:02:16] Consciously deciding to accept this sort of half-hearted apology and going forward You know he forces what happened out of his mind and forgive some Then despite the difficult life that he himself has experienced he still trusts In authority and society to enforce some kind of justice after

[01:02:41] Duck Sue kills player 271 he makes this impassioned plea to the authorities to do something about it And you can see him become a little disillusioned when Nothing happens except they bring a coffin and drag the body out very disillusioned yes and

[01:03:00] You know when when he says we shouldn't be killing each other like this He's explicitly calling out that the violence of the players is misdirected towards each other Instead of the greater conditions that have put them all in this Place

[01:03:19] I agree with you Jason. I think his invitation to say beo to join them if the violence breaks out is more sympathy for her then gain to himself I think he he feels humanity there even though she hasn't traded him the greatest

[01:03:38] But he sympathizes with her as being the victim of the bully And that great line you don't trust people because of trust where the you trust them because there's nothing else to lean on Triggers the exchange of names to gain trust

[01:03:54] So we'll see where he winds up after this episode but We are seeing everybody around him get sort of harder edged and less human It hasn't really happened to him yet. He's he's still kind of the same guy by the end of the In the zone

[01:04:14] Yeah, well, honestly more like wool. I mean that was Turning point reflecting on this episode was Man four episodes ago like he really grated on me I mean he was stealing from his elderly mother like he was just being very selfish Line to a daughter as the actual

[01:04:35] Yeah, there were definitely like Science of goodness in there. He wasn't completely Trash you know, but he just seemed very flaky and low integrity Yeah, like I didn't hate him, but he like grated on me like I was like you're so

[01:04:54] frustrating get it together and now I'm a hundred percent like rooting for him and he had all these heartwarming moments like Yeah, the game seems to be bringing out the worst in a lot of the contestants and in him it's bringing out the best yeah

[01:05:11] Also like just on the topic of bringing Of trying to build trust and have teammates and everything Thinking about this I was gonna say well yeah, you can you can team up and build trust But you know in the end you're gonna be working against your teammates

[01:05:27] And that might always be in the back of their minds that that could come to pass But we absolutely don't know that for sure because when the overseers introduce the games They said everyone here will participate in six different games over six days

[01:05:39] Those who win all six games will receive a handsome cash prize So the writers deliberately put it in there that that there could be more than one person and

[01:05:51] So I think that's deliberate wording to impart the idea that the players and us the audience that a group of people can win I think the game is hard so we could speculate if

[01:06:00] We didn't already know but I don't want to give it away that it could be down to one or even none by the end of this You know, maybe nobody's gonna win But I just think we don't know for sure and if I was in the game

[01:06:12] I would hold out for hope that Me and my buddies could all win, you know So as naive as that seems when they're just letting you kill each other at night in your dorm room

[01:06:24] I think some of the participants have already come to the conclusion at this point. There's gonna be one winner That doesn't mean that they're right Yeah, but some have decided that that's the outcome Like ducks who and song will I would say and song who maybe

[01:06:42] Yeah, I could see that so but that was my point that I wanted to do I want to do a Point on June. Oh Who I meant to say this last time but I

[01:06:54] Like this kind of story where one person infiltrates a layer of some type and has to figure it out from the inside Against all the odds It reminds me going back to Star Wars with Luke Han and Obi-Wan and Chewie going into the Death Star to rescue Leia

[01:07:11] You know and there's been other stories like that over time and I always find myself drawn to them Although I think he's having it a little too easy to believe but um So just following his story through this episode first we see okay, yeah

[01:07:25] He's wearing that square face helmet now so it's from the guy that the front man killed last time for revealing his face I presume he took it right which uh how did nobody notice that but okay so then

[01:07:36] I'm thinking how now as a manager square faces are the leaders It seems like it would be harder to pull off because you you're The one who gives direction I would think and people you have to know what to do

[01:07:54] So like when the workers go in after the riot to collect The weapons and frisk everybody and tally the bodies he's in there and And I'm like how does he know what to do and Also, how where do I wife?

[01:08:09] What's thinking at the time where does he stay like how does he know a term to go to as you need a different bigger room now That he's a squarehead and if not wouldn't have given away

[01:08:19] But then when he comes out of his room you see he's wearing the circle mask so He's kept that mask to he has both but then I'm like well, how does he manage

[01:08:28] Them keeping both without getting caught we know there's a camera in the room. I think I'm just thinking too hard about this I need to let it go, but we know he's using whichever one he needs to use Depending and that I even was reminded oh yeah

[01:08:42] He's looking for his brother because he goes up to Gihun and he's like is someone named Hwang in Ho Which is his brother? He's playing Junho and this is Wang in Ho In there and Gihun doesn't know and says they don't use their names

[01:08:55] I guess he asked Gihun because he knows him. I don't know why he went to Gihun Maybe he's just asking anybody But I do think that Maybe that was what prompted Gihun to start

[01:09:08] Trading names with the people in his group not necessarily because he's like oh I'm gonna find out if this guy's in here But just like oh yeah, we don't even know each other's names you know it just sort of welcome up to that

[01:09:18] That's a really good point. Yeah, maybe that was the trigger for that I think he did ask him because he recognized him Yeah, but I don't know why though. I mean

[01:09:29] He did pick the guy you knew we know that and I also agree with you it sounds funny to say and a show is Fantastic. Oh, is this but I think that this is a part of the story a great part of compelling part

[01:09:40] But where you you have to just suspend your disbelief. It's hard to believe he could exist there or without knowing It's going on a knock-it-con All right, I'll stop picking on that. You're right You're absolutely right. I do think

[01:09:55] He would be able Junho to get a good look at all the players now There's only 80 left if he's in the room where the tug of war is happening he could scan through and see if his Brothers there so

[01:10:10] Anyway, I forget what happens with him next but I'm Pretty interested in his story still At one point he hears the coughing coming from next door again and He realizes it's more scode and he's coughing out number 29 so

[01:10:30] A that makes it maybe make a little more sense how these Workers sometimes communicate with each other maybe when they're not allowed to talk to each other They'd cough out more scode but be we were wondering because uh when they had stepped out of their rooms before

[01:10:45] The guy next door kind of seemed to look over at them in any movement outside of the Perscribes Synchronized movements really stands out so even just looking over at him seemed to mean something and I think this means they did have a relationship

[01:11:01] Well number 29 who Junho killed and took his place had a relationship with this neighbor and He's trying to communicate with him again and Do something I think they did say where's number 29 Yeah, he says he didn't show up

[01:11:18] So he was supposed to also that's the Oregon stuff. Okay. Yeah, so they're actually Communicating in cough mors code about Hey, it's time to harvest some more organs tonight or go deliver

[01:11:31] They were supposed to go at some dangerous underwater route to deliver this eyeball or some Oregon or something right 28 turns out to be involved in the Oregon Stealing scheme and 29 is supposed to be yes, okay The can't believe I didn't connect those dots

[01:11:49] Yeah, yeah, absolutely and the the whole Oregon donation thing Orton hot donation sort of I guess harvesting When they're in that room and so we find out 11 is a doctor when 11's a doctor and he's trading his Services for information and

[01:12:11] They're the workers have put together this racket where they're harvesting organs and selling them to the black market presumably right And I think the point of all of that is like even within this rigid strict system

[01:12:26] People are still angling to get ahead kind of what you said about the games This is the workers Getting ahead outside of what they're supposed to be there for whether that's out of Desperation greed boredom just pure ambition capitalism emerges and

[01:12:44] They're trading on anything a value that they can in this case it's information about the games Skill as a doctor for one eleven Access to the bodies knowledge of head of sneak organs out and find buyers all these things are valuable

[01:12:58] I think if any of these workers were caught It's reasonable to assume that could be in mortal danger. They could die. They could be killed

[01:13:06] And also I don't think they would get life-changing money by selling these organs. They might get some good money, but I'm just trying to think Why would they do it so I think maybe they actually aren't making that much money

[01:13:19] Am I being a part of these games or else why resort to this thing that could be super risky? Yeah, and I think to your point capitalism and Corruption emerge in every system No matter how disciplined and

[01:13:33] You could kind of see these guys figuring out that there's there's waste going on working out all these valuable organs Leave in money on the table yeah exactly

[01:13:45] But they're risking their lives so either they're just the type of people that don't care and will risk their lives or else they really need the money You know That's sort of what I cleaned out about I have it really enjoyed

[01:13:57] I had completely forgotten about the detective storyline Don't feel that invested or care of that much about it, but I was trying to just okay Well, what is this telling us what is the show one us to see by showing us this storyline and I think

[01:14:12] What's standing out to me so far is that The guards at least the guards that we've seen we've seen guards of multiple levels multiple shapes involved in the scheme and so They're still desperate to make money so they are not

[01:14:31] Benefitting like you said from the as a job the same way that the people You know at the top probably are and And I think it's just like another layer like they're playing their own game

[01:14:47] As the middleman, right and then I think the other thing and I wonder do both of your opinions on this I don't know if it's already been talked about

[01:14:57] But to me all this system with the guards really emphasizes that this is not the first iteration of squid games Because if so the logistics for figuring this kind of stuff out

[01:15:13] Seems unlikely right that this would be their first go at it and and also that guards working for them Have figured this out I mean there's other things too. Which is how tightly things run that feels like

[01:15:25] Either they did some crazy amounts of planning or they've done this before But to me this organ harvesting really emphasizes that this is not the first time this has happened or it feels like it's not

[01:15:38] The whole thing is it's very complex and very organized so I think that does go in the direction you're saying And even just one of the triangle guys just being like yeah, there's gonna be a fight tonight

[01:15:50] Made it seem like we do this every year and it always happens you know Let's try to and you know maybe this is the type of stuff season two will focus in on but wondering how often can you disappear 500-ish people

[01:16:07] Even if there are people that are sort of in disadvantaged positions How many times can you do that how often can you do that in the same place until Too many red flags go off like you do it every a couple of years from

[01:16:22] From Korea or do they need to be in a different country and they only go to Korea every like 10 years You know, I was just I was trying to think about all these Logistics of go things behind it if it's a regular occurrence

[01:16:36] And I think it's also implied that in the guard ranks at least in the rank and file They are probably pulling from the criminal world And these are people who are gonna have to commit violence without question

[01:16:50] And they're doing this whole crazy clandestine illegal thing to begin with so you're not pulling like people in regular jobs They're not gonna go do this Yeah, so I think that also makes it unsurprising that some of them are running a scheme on the side

[01:17:06] And if you think about again organized crime If you think about the soldier or rank and file level people involved in organized crime They don't generally make huge money You know maybe it's like every other business. Maybe a few people get rich at the top

[01:17:23] I never really thought about that but yeah makes sense Yeah, that's why they always get in trouble because they're skimming And they get their knuckles broken All right, David you got you more? We have touched on all my points I didn't want to just follow that up to

[01:17:44] mentioned about the doctor himself who I find to be a Fascinating but odious character like how did that guy end up in here? Right With the the skills he has I mean you can just imagine what kind of terrible stuff went on that that guy

[01:18:01] Well, he was probably originally on the other end of the organ you know he was putting the stolen organs into people or some Yeah, maybe maybe maybe that's that could be although they I thought they said they were going to China

[01:18:14] Oh, I don't know maybe didn't min y'all say something similar like what are you doing in here or something The keys of to me. I forget he told

[01:18:24] Ducks who that he would he's like also you up here, which where did he get the needle and thread to sew his leg up? Yeah, I wondered that too. Oh, yeah, but anyways, I'll look over that

[01:18:35] He was like all you know once we get out of the here, then I'll fix you up at my hospital and she was like what are you talking about your hospital? Like you're in here too like you don't have anything left

[01:18:46] I don't know if that was for you good So I want to talk a little bit about the old man Because there's a lot with him in this one After the dugout and competition, which I think is this episode starts shortly after that

[01:19:02] He seems as thrilled as ever to be there. He thinks he'd he'd food for the licking strategy He said that saved him so I felt like that was Instantly them deepening their bond. He's grateful for him He disappears during the riots and then kind of

[01:19:19] Review he's up on top of the bunk screaming for everyone to stop please. I'm so scared This is madness we're all gonna die in here So that was a contrast right he's usually just thrilled to be there even though their lives are in danger from these games

[01:19:33] But this freaks him out so At least it seems like he's sort of like he hung he's okay risking death in the games But he doesn't like it spilling into every facet of life. He's troubled by that and Seems um disillusioned or you know offended

[01:19:50] When Gihun asks everyone's names he can't remember his name That he seems to vacillate between being very astudet times and then very absent-minded And if you have a person with dementia in your life you might have experienced that I know I have

[01:20:10] It also reminded me we have been using his name and I was afraid of that we've been using a lot of the characters Names and now I realize oh yeah they haven't really been said in the series before it so it's a little spoiler

[01:20:20] But it's no big deal. I don't think and he also has by his own Admission of brain tumor so yeah dementia and or a brain tumor you can see why he goes between There and not there right for sure

[01:20:38] That he couldn't remember his name though and that the frontman frontman As you said Veronica ended the riot as soon as he started yelling he was scared It made me question is there something else going on with his guy? I have no idea what at this point

[01:20:53] But it did make me question that I remember the first time I was watching it Um he stayed up all night. He revealed in case of another attack. I'm just saying we're

[01:21:02] End of things about him then I noticed but he stayed up all night and he said you don't need much sleep when you're old And I'm like yeah the older I get well the less I sleep. I still feel like I need it, but It just doesn't happen

[01:21:15] But anyway keeping a night watch that's also another way that he's proved to be more useful Maybe we thought and then I guess yeah I've already said everything else about him

[01:21:28] But it was just glorious to see him come up with that strategy at the end where the whole tension between him seems to be Is the liability or not so That was really cool

[01:21:38] It's a brilliant character in any case this whole thing would be a lot less interesting without him. Yeah, absolutely Was it last episode that he said to geohoon that he reminded him of his son? I just thought that was

[01:21:54] He said it at some point. I don't think it was this episode It may have been two episodes ago Like he specifically said that and I thought it's just said up an interesting dynamic between those two Before we get to notes. I did just want to

[01:22:13] We didn't really talk about how intense that riot was And it was fucking intense chaotic lights blinking on and off bunk beds toppling over Stabbing spunk jeans, puffling, pulling off metal pieces the bunk beds and just swinging them each other

[01:22:32] This one guy throws a blanket over another's guys head and snaps his neck There's a young woman who can't take it anymore pounding at the door begging to be let out and then some guy comes up and attacks her And I'm like wow This isn't just

[01:22:48] Ducks who's gang everybody's lashing out or a lot of people are not everyone maybe but um And then I'm like okay, what would how would I be what I just turn feral and start You know people no, I don't think so. I'm as sure as I can be

[01:23:02] You never know how you're gonna be but I'm pretty damn sure that I would only be protecting myself and others and not trying to actively kill someone who wasn't Threatening me, you know But maybe it would just whip people up into a frenzy, you know

[01:23:17] I don't know I was struck by that too just how many people I also wrote down feral in my notes And I specifically went back just to see like for sure some of these really violent scenes It's not just the sort of

[01:23:31] Ducks who thug gang and and the man that beat the woman at the door was not one of the numbers Of the main like thugs that run with him and so it really was a

[01:23:42] Lot of people just being terribly vicious. I thought that was a lot of the point Yeah, the whole scene you have no idea. I think how you would react your adrenaline goes crazy you get tunnel vision Who knows what you would do in this situation?

[01:24:00] Yeah, I mean I just really if I Ever in that situation would attack someone who wasn't threatening me That would be shocking to find that out about myself I don't think that would be a possibility But I guess yeah, I've never really noticed a situation

[01:24:20] Pretty sure I can say it wouldn't do that, but you're right. You just never know I think I can say with a lot of confidence I don't think I would like rush across the room to beat someone who was begging to get out the door

[01:24:32] You know, I could imagine maybe Like lashing out at someone because I was so scared and I thought they were coming after me when they weren't like I could totally see doing that

[01:24:42] But I feel pretty confident about myself that I don't think I would be chasing anyone down Yeah, I think I just like find a corner and grab a weapon and just try to swing it at anyone and come to near me

[01:24:55] Yeah, I did love all ye coming down with like his Beem like a type Just again to like show his strength, but it was it was pretty nice little hero moment for him We'll do that yeah, all right. Let's move into any random notes Veronica

[01:25:17] One thing that I had and I went tried to just look at the internet to see if maybe there was something I was missing But how you get a note into the middle of a boiled egg? I don't think that's possible The internet also says no so

[01:25:34] Maybe you could inject it with a needle after it was boiled but yes that we wondered about that too You feed it to the chicken and Don't think it works, I like Okay Good guess What else One is the

[01:25:54] The old man refers when the tug of war is about to start to she rum So he says you know, I played tug of war a lot when I was a kid and we rarely lost even when there was a

[01:26:06] Shrirum athlete on the the a she rum athlete on the other team which makes Our chance of winning low So I wondered about what that was I had not heard that term before So I'll read the wiki definition Shrum or Korean wrestling

[01:26:26] Is a folk wrestling style and traditional national sport of Korea that began on the fourth century In the modern form each contestant where it was a belt or sought by that wraps around the waist and the thigh

[01:26:38] The competition employs a series of techniques which inflict a little harm or injury to the opponent opponents lock on each other's belt And one achieves victory by bringing any part of the opponent's body above the knee to the ground

[01:26:51] So I thought that was interesting kind of reminded me a little bit of sumo which I a little bit more about from Japan My subtitle said wrestler It said even if there was a wrestling on the team really yeah, okay our our said

[01:27:07] Had this word yeah, yeah, she rum But it touches again. I think on his That old man's connection to tradition and the traditions of sport and competition this ancient sport So that was one and then The other one I have is

[01:27:30] Pretty dark, but I I wanted to look this up because I just wondered about is this just really a dark fictional part of this show or is this Black market organ trade really going on and Just a little bit of research

[01:27:50] Told me that it sounds like it is a thing that goes on especially in China So I want to read a little bit of a this is from BBC news So this is a credible news source from 2020 so only a couple years ago

[01:28:04] And this is a new story on BBC Six people including several doctors have been jailed in china for illegal Legally harvesting organs from accident victims Reports local media the group had tricked the families of the deceased into thinking they were making official Organ donations

[01:28:25] According to the reports the trafficking ring included for high ranking doctors some of whom worked in organ procurement in hospitals I won't read all the glory details, but basically

[01:28:37] They would approach these people who whose relatives were in an accident they would have them sign of fake consent form They had a fake ambulance

[01:28:46] Where they would take the person to make that family think it was all official and then they would take their organs out and sell them to other Doctors in hospitals Wow on the black market

[01:28:57] Um, so apparently this is an ongoing issue in China with the government has tried to address but there's an organ shortage And Anyway, one way of saying that story line is not made up This is nothing

[01:29:12] Now I want to know what like a spleen goes for you know how much When either making off these things of so curious Yeah, better to be not that much and

[01:29:21] You know, maybe it's just around the margins and maybe this isn't a mainstream practice, but it's not an unexistent Yeah, I'm not surprised at that Honestly May it's how grown or z-started right?

[01:29:37] So this is a little bit of a longer one maybe this should have been a point But when they're told to pick teams of 10 people and they're speculating on what the games could be the game could be that they're getting ready for young things He names off some

[01:29:49] Gamesy things it might tail tag and why did you come to my house, which I love that title for a game And I looked it up tail tag is just everyone talks like a piece of fabric into the back of

[01:30:01] Their pants and you have to try to grab everyone else's out before anyone gets yours But why did you come to my house is To kids play they line up in two teams across from each other and then they say this little rhyme

[01:30:17] Why did you go into my house to pick your flowers and then the Whoever's turned it is picks someone on the other team and they play rock paper scissors And then if whoever wins that person has to the loser has to go to the winning

[01:30:31] Side and they just keep doing that over and over again until all the players are on one side or the other And then I guess I mean I was thinking well then when you just have one team after that and they all win

[01:30:43] But I guess if you were on the team that lost then you would lose So that's why did you come to my house? He also mentioned two more games gongy and elastics Which he says girls are usually better at these two games

[01:30:58] Gungy from when I could gather is like jacks except with little colored stones so you like What do you do you throw up when you throw up a jack and try to pick a couple off the table and catch the other one or something like that

[01:31:13] And then you have to do three and then four I think that's how it works or I forget exactly how it works But you have to try to pick up two and then grab the other one and then pick up three then four

[01:31:24] And then elastics is kind of like a jump rope game with two people holding Either end of this like Elastic thing and then the one in the middle has to like do a designated series of moves without messing up

[01:31:37] Just a few games being able to see some of those next season That one sounds like it could be pretty intense Robo ball The threat of death does a sound exciting someone with a gun right over by the side Um

[01:31:51] Did we know that alley was missing fingers before this I forgot No, thanks. I didn't yeah, that was a revelation. I think we can guess how that happened Working in the oven what did do his boss Right And then last the total prize money at the end is

[01:32:11] Up to now is 37.6 billion one which is about 28.5 million dollars It's a stick All right, here's some news just a couple things Just quickly the Sunday times did an interview with the squid games the challenge winner who I won't reveal in case you haven't watched

[01:32:58] But they said they haven't yet received the money and The show wrapped filming 10 months ago and a source close to the show said now that the final ep has air air The money's coming but it just seems it would be so crazy to be told you won

[01:33:17] 4.56 million dollars and then have to sit on that for 10 months Not tell anyone not get the money It's ridiculous And then There was an event a few days ago where press members were allowed to see two filming sets for squid game season two

[01:33:40] Apparently they're not yet allowed to Talk about it or take pictures of it because there were no details so I'm not sure what the point was just to get them jazzed about it or something I don't know but during this event

[01:33:52] The writer director who hang Donghik said quote since July We've been immersed in the filming of season two Field by the interest and support of many the sense of responsibility is substantial But I'm committed to delivering a work that lives up to everyone's patience

[01:34:08] You can look forward to a more profound narrative and message in season two unfolding alongside new games and characters It's just little bit of what's coming next Exciting yeah, I can't wait

[01:34:23] But I want to know as little as possible about it. Yeah, that's one of the great things about the first show Okay, I'm there with you too So I'll make it a point not to like go searching out details and read it in the news of the podcast

[01:34:36] I thought that just a little teaser there, but yeah, no, no, I wasn't I wasn't criticizing you saying no, no, I don't but in general Me too, I'm the same yeah, yeah, yeah, but like All right, let's get into some just a couple of messages from listeners

[01:34:50] Veronica Andrew sparkles says I found the night time free for all the most shocking Speed so far had to look away at times it was intense and disturbing on a greater level than the games for me

[01:35:03] Their brutality and that the players are now killing each other with their own hands The build-up with the group that steals the food and how there were no consequences for that was really well done

[01:35:14] I completely agree with all that yeah, yeah, we don't know where that's going when it starts happening and then Go somewhere very dark. Yeah, we lost and said This was so brutal I was expecting it to escalate to something like this, but wow that was a blooddough

[01:35:32] Player number one standing on the bunk had me in tears I love the additional layered mystery of the doctor and the workers and how they all fit into everything But y'all that ending I definitely went right to the next episode. I could not wait

[01:35:47] I do I think I was even thinking of Maria in particular because I know she's watching for the first time I was like anybody watching for the first time I but they're just gonna keep watching here. They can't wait You cannot stop after that. There's no way

[01:36:01] So I'm not if I watched you for the first time and I I still had to I watched the first like 10 minutes the next episode It was just like even knowing that outcome I still just needed to see it so I was like there's no one

[01:36:14] If I hadn't seen this then I would have stopped here. Just absolutely not I didn't only because I haven't another podcast later today and I had to watch another movie for it, but I was like don't

[01:36:38] All right that is our show except we are doing a spoiler re section after this a quick one, but for now Thanks for listening everybody next up will be Squid game season one episode five a fair world

[01:36:50] If you want to write in or send us a voice message about it you can find all our contact information at podcastic.com And while you're there be sure to check out our other shows Yeah, I want to call out

[01:37:02] Actually it's kind of a show within show. It's the show silo if you like that show Veronica and our friend Omelian I covered it in two episodes on my other podcasts called the cast of us so if you got a podcast

[01:37:18] To get calm and search on silo. You'll find our two episodes on that we loved it David have you I think you'd really love that show Have you seen it? We've seen it. Yeah, I enjoyed it. Yeah, it's good Interesting all right that's our show

[01:37:33] And never forget abdomen up to the sky head back to the point where you can almost see the groin of the person behind you Oh, words still look like okay so now we're gonna do a quick spoiler re segments as usual

[01:37:49] If you don't want to be spoiled please turn it off right now and don't listen thank you bye So Do you think he hunt I mean do you think

[01:38:02] Elon was telling the truth when he told the key hunt that he's the reason he got through the delgone game No, that's well maybe but I don't think so David do you have an opinion on that yeah hard to know I had not thought about that

[01:38:21] Yeah, I think maybe so I mean he didn't look like he was gonna finish in time Hmm He's so I can't remember I might sit I forget, but I think he's actually playing so

[01:38:34] Yeah, it's interesting. He's actually I think he's I think the experience he wants us to actually be playing Yeah, and then I mean similarly he called for the end of this night time brawl And the front man stopped it of course because he's the boss

[01:38:50] But he said he was scared they were all gonna die maybe that was just a way to get their attention without revealing himself or and also

[01:38:59] Did he like go hide in a special place for most of it and then come back out did he know about it ahead of time? I don't know Yeah, I mean those were all the questions I was having on this rewatch

[01:39:13] Just trying to understand. I mean that's a good call how did he even get up there? Yeah, and That would be if we want to say he's being protected in some way that would be a very difficult situation to protect him and yeah Yeah, for sure

[01:39:30] That's what I was thinking like but he disappeared and it seemed kind of conspicuous you know It's not clear to me Even after having seen the whole show Whether he is fully protected throughout Hmm

[01:39:46] And because there are a lot of situations like the tug of war where it seems like it would be hard to do that Yeah, it seems impossible to me. I presume he's not

[01:39:56] Protected but maybe to some level he could be at times, but I don't see how he could fully be protected at all times So it seems like he's not at all to me But then they did clearly end it when he called for it to end

[01:40:11] They did right. Yeah, and maybe he was being sincere. Maybe it was just scared shitless And they don't they don't like if he had lost At doga and uh He wouldn't have they wouldn't have shot him though

[01:40:26] They probably would have snuck him out right right they would have made it look like because that's what they do Major actually oh, okay. Oh, yeah, that's true. Yes. Yeah, I don't think he was really in jeopardy in that game

[01:40:38] But but there's like you said there's no way and tug of war and maybe it was just that he felt Love got a good chance because I know the strategy Solarist get I don't know maybe I think he was okay with knowing he might die. Well, yeah

[01:40:54] Maybe there's just a fatalism to I don't know how they would pull this off and Explained until they other players, but maybe his cuff wasn't Actually linked to the you know it was a breakaway cuff or something so he would fall off

[01:41:09] And then they pretend shoot him and carry him off. Yeah, something like that maybe Just still reflecting on him and his relationship with gui-hoon I just started to get like Really dark willy walk of vibes from the whole situation where it seems like

[01:41:27] You know, gui-hoon is the last one to enter the game. He's player four five six last in and You know Charlie want to tick it kind of the last the last ticket into the chocolate factory

[01:41:42] And here's the old old man sort of I don't know it's not a perfect parallel Something about it just seemed like this dark iteration of I mean willy won't go really

[01:41:52] Walk as already dark in my opinion those kids are dead. Well, yeah, but this is a no no no no no The limpos saved them all okay. No, I don't know but this is a more clearly darker

[01:42:04] Yeah, so why did Elon not just say his name does he does he never say it until he's revealed I can't remember no he does say his name later He does say it so yeah, that was weird. Maybe that was genuine too

[01:42:23] I mean one turns I think is brilliant about his character is it's hard to know Even after the fact you're not sure about a lot of these things Right seems like he would have just made something up

[01:42:37] Why pretend he didn't like if there was a real reason he didn't want Yeah, potential of the one person that makes that out to know his name It's a good point then just make something up. So yeah, and have it ready too

[01:42:52] So to me that says he was having a brain tumor incident there we don't know for sure, but that's what it points to do to me And then the last thing I had is just the fact that he has this really smart tug of war strategy

[01:43:05] shows that he's a strategist and a smart competitor and You got to think he's used that tactical brain to excel at least in some ways in his life and get to where he is Well, when you know the game that's coming up to you have additional prep time

[01:43:21] So maybe it's also that he was okay with cheating a little bit in his strategy Did he know we don't know that either I just assumed that he You know know what every new everything that was coming We how quickly he immediately adapted to red light green light

[01:43:42] I don't know though. I can't say that for sure because he seems surprised but he could be acting Sometimes, you know like with a dog on a he didn't help gather the ideal team for title war I was for sure

[01:43:57] Yeah, I don't know that's a hard one all right that's great thanks guys all right gang