9: "Gganbu" (Squid Game S1E6)

[00:00:00] 음? 아!

[00:00:02] 음...

[00:00:04] 반격 스키드

[00:00:10] 나 이름이 생각났어

[00:00:14] 내 이름은 인람이야

[00:00:17] 오... 인람

[00:00:30] 오...

[00:00:32] 오...

[00:00:34] 오...

[00:00:36] 오...

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[00:00:58] 안녕하세요 여러분, 안녕하세요, 제이컨입니다

[00:01:00] 그리고 저는 대변입니다

[00:01:02] 그리고

[00:01:22] 내가

[00:01:35] 그래서 저는 또 인정하고

[00:01:56] 그리고

[00:02:40] 그는

[00:02:53] 그의

[00:03:08] 또 한 번 더.

[00:03:10] 저는

[00:03:22] 그래서

[00:03:35] 아주 잘생겼습니다.

[00:03:37] 저는 제가 가장

[00:03:49] 네, 저는 정말 이런

[00:04:02] 그리고 저는 많이

[00:04:16] 저는 이 시각에서 한 번에

[00:04:38] I'm curious. I'm just kidding.

[00:04:40] I mean, like, Ducks do, you know?

[00:04:42] I think I, I don't think I'm the type of person that I'm ever going to feel great about

[00:04:48] like my winning, leading to someone else's demise.

[00:04:51] Like, I don't even like to win board games that much if I know someone else is

[00:04:55] like really competitive and they're sad.

[00:04:57] So I would not be great at this.

[00:05:00] But it might be easier with someone who's like a more despicable character

[00:05:06] than, yeah.

[00:05:08] than the rest.

[00:05:10] I don't mind winning board games.

[00:05:12] I guess yeah, I guess I get pretty competitive.

[00:05:16] Some people just get so crazy about it.

[00:05:18] David, I would guess you're pretty competitive but you don't get crazy about it.

[00:05:24] I'm quite competitive. I enjoy competition but no, I do not get crazy about it whatsoever.

[00:05:30] I just like to have fun.

[00:05:34] It's fun to win but that's not usually my goal.

[00:05:38] I play a lot of video games and for me it's more about the experience.

[00:05:42] It's not so much about being the best fighter or winning every Mario Kart.

[00:05:48] Although I do win a lot of Mario.

[00:05:50] You do. You're so good at it.

[00:05:52] I don't like to play against you.

[00:05:56] Well, I thought no, I'm just kidding.

[00:05:58] It's awesome. I'm impressed.

[00:06:00] I thought it was fascinating in a very cruel way.

[00:06:06] It's putting people together who for the most part like each other and forcing them into a game where one has to die is pretty fucked up.

[00:06:14] But yeah, it reveals a lot and then to have it all in the backdrop of this sort of charming and childlike setting with this childhood game.

[00:06:24] Pretty fascinating.

[00:06:26] Alright, fucked up moment of the week Veronica.

[00:06:28] I think saying Wu, Tricking, Ali, for me was up there in the top.

[00:06:34] Just pretty terrible.

[00:06:36] David?

[00:06:38] Yeah, that's about as bad as it gets.

[00:06:40] Just going for the visceral I would say that right as you're going into the fourth game seeing like five bodies hanging from the ceiling, that was pretty fucked up.

[00:06:50] Yeah.

[00:06:52] And then having that being framed as...

[00:06:54] We care about you so much, we did this.

[00:06:58] Kind of...

[00:07:00] Yeah, we did it for you.

[00:07:02] You should be impressed.

[00:07:04] Yeah, I mean mine is also saying Wu, Duping, Ali, that's just the worst, the most fucked up thing.

[00:07:14] Poor guy.

[00:07:16] Especially since he has a family to worry about.

[00:07:18] So let's get into our points Veronica.

[00:07:22] I'll just start out with sort of where the episode I think started, which was sort of the tail end of our follow-up with the detective is a Junho I believe his name.

[00:07:34] I don't... I mean again this is like a pretty small point because nothing that compelling happened in his storyline but we just open up to him still in that record room, still trying to take pictures of documents.

[00:07:48] So the first one was a list of who won in round six.

[00:07:52] I don't know if that was the sixth year or how the pattern of the games go.

[00:07:56] Did we definitively figure out last week that it's once per year?

[00:08:02] Yeah well they did say yearly winners and then a list that look like, yeah so I don't think we saw every single year on there but that's what it seemed like.

[00:08:12] And then there were also like a pile of cassette tapes which I was trying to figure out what information would be on those audio cassettes that would be useful.

[00:08:24] I wasn't really sure but just thought it was interesting that they showed that.

[00:08:28] And so then he hears the phone ringing outside and I was...

[00:08:32] It was like one of those moments in a scary movie where you're screaming at the person like, what are you doing?

[00:08:37] I just couldn't believe he walks out into the hallway and it seems like considering picking the phone up out there and then he doesn't.

[00:08:47] And so the frontman I guess then comes in and answers it.

[00:08:51] And I think the only other thing we really learned is just that again the frontman's telling someone that he knows this disturbance has happened, he's trying to handle it.

[00:09:03] And I think he then indicates that the VIPs are going to be arriving soon so we know a group of...

[00:09:09] I'm assuming the people betting on this game are about to arrive.

[00:09:13] And the only other thing I noticed is the telephone.

[00:09:18] One, it was just strange how plain this phone is for this sort of opulent apartment with like golden 3D walls that there's just this really not antique but something that looks like it's from the 80s right?

[00:09:32] Sitting there.

[00:09:35] Don't call that an antique with me and David with me and David.

[00:09:39] No I mean I definitely like we had that kind of phone growing up too but it just seemed strange in the rest of the setting to have that there.

[00:09:49] And they do sort of like linger on it for a while.

[00:09:53] I thought maybe just less easy to hack or something.

[00:09:57] Oh maybe.

[00:09:59] Kind of quaint but yeah push button old push button phone.

[00:10:02] Yeah and then Junho does come back out and tries to use the phone.

[00:10:07] He hears a dial tone but...

[00:10:10] It seemed like was he trying to do a star 69 or something to call back to whoever had just called.

[00:10:16] I thought maybe it was something like that but I don't know.

[00:10:19] I assumed he was trying to call out because you heard the dial tone but then I assumed it was like one of those where you need to have the code to dial out of the system first.

[00:10:29] A lot of places I've worked in the past have had that.

[00:10:32] You need to hit 9 first and then the number or something.

[00:10:36] I don't know.

[00:10:37] Just thought it was interesting.

[00:10:39] I think you guys may have mentioned this too that this storyline.

[00:10:44] I didn't care about it at all the first watch and there's so much I don't remember about it but I am finding it a little more compelling this go through.

[00:10:53] And I think it's just because I'm less perseverant on who's winning the game and who survives and doesn't.

[00:10:59] And now I have time to like take in the rest of the world.

[00:11:03] Yeah.

[00:11:05] I thought it was interesting about this scene. It was really short.

[00:11:08] You're right that he took a picture of a non disclosure agreement.

[00:11:12] They seem to want to focus on that which I think is to maybe explain why past winners wouldn't tell on the games or anything.

[00:11:22] I mean they've got a ton of money so that might be reason enough not to want to say anything but there isn't an disclosure agreement and I would imagine the penalties could be of the most severe for breaking that agreement.

[00:11:34] Yes although extending across from us law which may or may not be correct.

[00:11:40] Usually you can't use an NDA to cover up a crime.

[00:11:43] Right.

[00:11:45] I mean I think it might be the non disclosure agreement that says if you tell on us we will kill you sign here.

[00:11:52] One thing I noted about that was because I noticed that too that they sort of focused on that for a moment.

[00:12:03] I mean this show always has these underlying themes about sort of capital predatory capitalism.

[00:12:10] And that is a strong feature of predatory capitalism like unfair or fair capitalism, forced arbitration, NDAs, secret legal settlements.

[00:12:24] Things we all take granted and that were probably invented here in the United States.

[00:12:30] Yep all the stuff that's in your 25 page iPhone agreement that you click agree to which now they make you scroll to the bottom of before you.

[00:12:42] Also it was pretty distinct to hear him answer the phone in English which I presume that means it's an international affair.

[00:12:54] He's talking to someone about the VIPs coming maybe it's Western you know there's people from all over.

[00:13:04] It made me also wonder if the VIPs fly in for each game and go home or do they all come in person to some watch remotely.

[00:13:12] Was there some questions I had it made me wonder if you know speaks English.

[00:13:17] Yeah you seem to understand right who knows yeah and I wouldn't be surprised actually don't know I think I would guess that English speaking isn't that common actually in Korea but I could be wrong.

[00:13:33] David yeah so I just want to start with sort of the general of this episode and what I felt like it meant or what it meant to me because it was so fascinating and ultimately heartbreaking.

[00:13:52] I think what was so powerful in this episode is that it takes the chaotic group dynamics that run throughout all of the other episodes and it really distills them down to these intimate one-on-one pairs.

[00:14:09] And that makes us feel the full force of the emotion is these characters we come to care about interacting in these one-on-one ways and we empathize with them and some of them are ultimately eliminated meaning killed.

[00:14:25] I think the overriding thing that's different about this episode is this is the one where we finally understand that there can be hold nothing held back in this game be it physical psychic emotional winner lose this game is going to take everything from all 456 players probably from 455 of them it's going to literally take their life.

[00:14:52] But even from the one that wins it's going to take everything else and I think that's what we learned from the winners in this episode.

[00:15:03] So we never get too far in this show either from the grander themes about society and that starts in this episode with

[00:15:17] with what they call the pure ideology of this world which is what's being upheld by the killing of these people who have broken the rules so I just want to take a moment to repeat what is said to the players as they see those bodies hanging there.

[00:15:34] You are witnessing the fates of those who broke the rules of this world for their own benefit and furthermore tainted the pure ideology of this world here you are all equal with equal opportunity and no discrimination we promise to prevent such misfortunes from happening again we truly apologize for this tragedy.

[00:15:57] So the irony here is that others in the game have cheated at this point.

[00:16:04] Sabio, Songwoo, Duksu and Minyo among them in various ways violence has been permitted with the strong praying upon the weak.

[00:16:15] But it is still a self-justifying system that seems to feel the need to morally justify itself and that's what this whole speech is about.

[00:16:27] So it was a very interesting, I thought general context for an episode that after that becomes not about the general but very much about these specific intimate relationships and the results and emotions around them.

[00:16:43] I think I can sort of tie together the social commentary of the marble game with everything that you just talked about.

[00:16:57] It's very cruel to have a game where people who would normally want to help each other for the most part had to work against each other.

[00:17:07] And I think this is about how systems in society like you talked about these self perpetuating systems can pit people against each other who would otherwise be friendly and supportive and cooperative in a way that benefited everyone.

[00:17:23] The game, the marbles game is a zero sum game which means for one person to win the other person has to lose.

[00:17:30] And there's critiques of modern society that say powerful people like elites, wealthy individuals, corporations have an interest in creating or maintaining the zero sum game for the less powerful, the poor, the marginalized so they can exploit the resources labor and rights of the less powerful.

[00:17:49] Justify their actions by appealing to scarcity, competition or survival.

[00:17:55] So politics these days feel zero sum to me were tribal and many feel that the other side has to lose for their side to win.

[00:18:03] It's a raw in this struggle.

[00:18:06] And I hate that. I feel like we're all in this together.

[00:18:09] We need to be better off working together as much as possible.

[00:18:13] And we want more positive some games where the outcome can be beneficial for all the people involved like science research or something that gets funded and everybody benefits from whatever comes out of it.

[00:18:24] And so I feel like that's a little bit like framing this whole thing as as fair.

[00:18:31] It's just like there's an illusion of fairness among the masses, but they actually have little power compared to the most powerful in society who create these rules.

[00:18:42] That everyone else but them has to abide by.

[00:18:46] And so the rules are, yeah it's fair you fight against each other for our benefit.

[00:18:53] And so I feel like that's kind of how that applies to the marble game and the idea that we created this container for you guys to play in, but you're the ones who are bound to it and not us kind of thing.

[00:19:10] Yeah, I, I often wondered about the idea that like what is it that makes some people at the top of any society be very driven to be the richest and most powerful.

[00:19:26] Because we've long since passed the point where that's about survival.

[00:19:31] Oh yeah, where that's about meeting basic needs.

[00:19:35] And I think there is some element of to feel great is defined by the misery of others because if others didn't feel miserable what would your rich and powerfulness mean.

[00:19:50] And there seems to be that in this system in this quick game.

[00:19:55] And if you want power that means what is power it's control over other things.

[00:20:02] So there has to be the people who are powerless in order for there to be the people who are powerful right you know.

[00:20:10] So all right Veronica what's next for you.

[00:20:14] I think the other theme for me that again got a code in this episode was this sort of negative narrative around women as players in the game.

[00:20:29] I was curious about I wanted to ask you about that what you thought if you would, if you would be excited to choose a woman or not as your teammate.

[00:20:38] It was hard right like even you know even say be out who initially is the one who called it out like hey nobody's going to want a woman anyways and she walks away.

[00:20:51] Even she sort of box that first at G young when she comes up to be her partner and I think that had more probably to do with say be out personality and needing to first resist someone reaching out to her.

[00:21:08] In this woman who had asked her her name earlier and felt like she wanted to pry but you wonder if it was because she was a woman at all to you.

[00:21:17] Yeah a little bit you know it wasn't it wasn't surprising like it's definitely not unique to this show or scenario at all.

[00:21:28] I thought it was pretty striking when you know it's really pulled out that it was not just about strength it was 244 says it was Adam's rib the Lord used to make Eve after all and that's the reason we're choosing men.

[00:21:46] And someone else I think you know just said like they play different roles than women it's not just that we want who's strongest like men are going to be better at every game inherently because they're men.

[00:22:00] And I was pretty like sucky and also like that that is often the reality of the world I do appreciate how things have changed I'm glad to live in the time that we do things are a lot better right now for women than they have been throughout history but they still aren't great.

[00:22:23] And so it was you know I think sort of sad to see this going on in the game but not surprising like it's what you would expect to happen and even Gihun who tries to call say be out back and who I think is a genuinely good guy who is not probably having those necessarily known internal dialogue that men are better than women.

[00:22:51] Sure there's been cultural things that have you know pushed that narrative in his head but you know he tries to call her back but even he won't commit to saying yeah I would want a partner with you which is ironic because he eventually chooses player one is weaker than then any of the women there but you didn't want to choose him either.

[00:23:15] Yeah yeah and it was I feel like for him I don't know but it was the same thinking it's like just in case it's a game of strength I want to pick the strongest person I can find I think say we probably one of the strongest women in there if not the strongest but anyway he didn't want to pick the old man because he knew he was frail.

[00:23:38] I mean it's just wild that none of the games really I mean tug of war yes strength was a definite benefit there but we even saw an example from you know our group of ten that they could have players that weren't necessarily physically robust but they still were able to win by using the intelligence of the weakest physically weakest player on their team the old man.

[00:24:05] And certainly saying who's attempt there at the end but he wasn't the strongest on their team either and so it just surprises me how focused on strength everybody still is at this point when there's been so many examples of other skills being really beneficial but that's our default.

[00:24:24] So if you were in the Squid Game would you just not really think about that and you'd be fine picking a woman as your partner.

[00:24:33] I mean I would probably think about physical strength but I think I would also be thinking about like intellectual prowess too and so I wouldn't have turned down sabiac like I think she would have been a great partner it's not like she's frail like player one.

[00:24:51] So I do think there's some reasonable you know emotions around at all of wanting to choose a stronger partner but I don't know this sort of idea that a big strong man is going to be the best.

[00:25:11] Yeah I agree I mean I wouldn't I think we don't know how he would be but I would be looking for someone who just seem really capable you know like I.

[00:25:23] I might pick sabiac but she's so quiet that I don't know if it's some kind of a game that requires a lot of I don't know social capability she wouldn't be good I don't think right so I think maybe key home at this point because he's been so heroic I might.

[00:25:41] Go looking for him in particular but I don't know it's so hard to say but there's definitely a lot of people I know I wouldn't want to pick.

[00:25:48] I mean as a player in the game having not seen anybody I probably would have saw saying who as a really attractive partner like he started this middle of the road person seems pretty intelligent up to this point to the other players he seems like also pretty nice guy who's watching out for his friends right yeah.

[00:26:09] Yeah I think two notable things about this pairing off one is what you've mentioned as the sexism is obvious and we don't get a lot of religion in the show but what we do it's pretty savage towards and this you know religious archetype guy turns out to be super sexist for no you know particularly rational reason.

[00:26:34] The other thing is they all do seem to still be sort of playing the last game in the absence of any knowledge.

[00:26:42] So they're all a little unduly influenced by whatever the game was right before this one and that makes sense they've all been repeatedly traumatized by near death experiences so you're going to remember that.

[00:26:58] Yeah I mean I got to say like if there were if I had two options of all things being equal I knew one player was stronger I would go for the stronger one right so if that meant that it was a man who seemed really capable and a woman who seemed really capable and they were the same age I would probably pick the man just for that reason if it meant my life was on the line you know and I hesitate to even say that because it sounds so sexist but.

[00:27:26] I'm just yeah but if the woman was stronger like if the man was a smaller week or male like then you would choose the woman it's really about the strength so I don't think there's any inherent thing wrong with that yeah I think I make sense as far as like human instinct toward survival

[00:27:47] I think the really gross part was the comment of just like well men are better at everything inherently because they're men right yeah and that was the more upsetting piece of the whole thing I mean actually the guy Geo and turns down was quite an attractive partner he's like yeah I'm a math teacher I'm intelligent I'm in good shape like young guy that's kind of the guy you would want to pick I don't mean because he's a guy but just like if you're looking for a mix of skills.

[00:28:16] Yes that was the point to show that he who was operating for a place of compassion over pragmatism right yeah.

[00:28:26] So David I think your turn.

[00:28:28] So just continuing with this scene the setup of the fourth game to be played in pairs you know and they don't know that until they get in there it gets explained to them I thought this was a really great scene in the show and it is the only scene in this episode where we do get the group dynamic which is characteristic of most of the rest of the show.

[00:28:58] So one thing that's a holdover from the previous episode is we now have an odd number of players and it seems like they the game organizers went to some lengths to try to ensure that they would have an even number of players for the tug of war and then for this game which is a pairing off.

[00:29:18] So that's kind of gone I think off of the plan of the game but it leads to a bunch of drama.

[00:29:27] Before this game about the pairing off because they all know somebody is going to get left out and that ends up being minio because she her she's over the top aggro trying to sell herself and nobody wants to be with her.

[00:29:42] But we kind of get this series of snubs and as they're pairing off in this life and death situation so Gehun assumes he's going to get to play with his childhood buddy saying whoa who immediately snubs him.

[00:29:59] And then Gehun immediately forgives him as he is want to do he's like I don't worry about me.

[00:30:08] So then we get Gehun snubbing Sabio because he fears that what if it's another physical strength game.

[00:30:18] We get ducks who snubbing minio because they're like they hate each other by this time.

[00:30:26] We do end up with a couple of heartwarming warming pairings so Sabio and G young sort of ends up being a pairing you're going to root for and then Gehun and the old man.

[00:30:39] So we can see as you said Jason Gehun feels empathy for the old man is the potential left over I wonder if he's also being clever enough to see him as a potentially valuable teammate.

[00:30:56] Because the old man even though frail has been sort of had a canny unique perspective a couple of times in the other games he was ahead of everybody else.

[00:31:06] Yeah so if he's not thinking about that he probably should be right.

[00:31:14] So yeah he's being sympathetic but I think he's not completely throwing away practicality either.

[00:31:22] I agree I don't feel like they played it out to show him seeming to consider that like it played out completely as this sort of pity compassion move.

[00:31:37] But I agree with you like I think it would kind of be stupid to count out the old man at this point although it does seem like he's had this like sudden further decline right like he treats his pants he seems more withdrawn more confused than normal and so I think

[00:31:57] at this point it would probably feel pretty scary to choose him as your partner not knowing if he will even have the mental acuity to be with it to help.

[00:32:09] Yeah he seems in and out yeah that goes into my next point it's about presenting this marbles game for maximum drama the unexpected and cruelly tragic nature of how it was laid out on a lot of different levels.

[00:32:26] First off well I mean the episode centered around this squid game me twist where the game was set up so that people who either like each other or had at least allied with each other would naturally choose each other as partners and then have to work to kill each other it's so twisted.

[00:32:44] And if it had just been a gamer people have been randomly paired up with when nearly as interesting first to get us prime they focused on the bonds that were forming between you and the old man where.

[00:32:58] It was kind to him helped him cover up when he beat himself and you're right I didn't even think about Veronica but it was also just to show that the old man was potentially becoming even more sort of frail.

[00:33:10] And so see who knows constantly kind to him just show makes you feel that they're more and more bonded and I feel like even though they didn't really come back to it this episode there's also they've primed us with sang we went all to showing them having moments of connection and kindness towards each other but you know mostly sang towards Ali with Ali being very grateful.

[00:33:34] And to a lesser degree even say beok and gion where she chose her even though she was supposed to choose a guy in the talk or competition.

[00:33:44] So then we've got all these sort of bonds among these people and then they go to the game area and they present it where you're supposed to choose your teammate they presented as if the pairs are going to be working together in this white room they say players welcome to the fourth game for this game you will be.

[00:34:04] And then we're going to play in teams of two team sounds like you're on the same team please look around and find someone you wish to play with with rather than against when two people agreed to play together shake hands to show you become partners it's also friendly and then also what's led up to this has got us thinking in that way too red light green light and Dalgona were all sort of every person for themselves but the tug or you also chose your team to play with in the same room I think right this white room.

[00:34:33] So that's what where I'm pretty sure when I saw the first time my mind I don't know if I thought oh they're going to have to play against each other I can't remember for sure but I don't think I was thinking about that at all because of the way that they sort of brought us to this and even just when they were choosing it was more focused on whether you should pick a woman or whatever is just very reminiscent of the whole tug or thing.

[00:35:01] And so that was distracting us from the idea that they might be playing against each other and then to see that you who in picks the old man just out of fear that he's going to kill himself that or be killed sorry that sort of also plays on that bond between them where he's being pragmatic I mean he's being compassionate possibly at the expense of his own safety.

[00:35:31] Then when you go into the game area this sort of disarming feel of it it's kind of charming it's the reminds them of their childhood there when they find out it's going to be marbles geehun and the old man are all excited and that's when geehun brings up this term gone blue like your my buddy or my brother you know it's like a childhood kind of a pinky swear thing and then with all of that in the background you feel like yeah these people are teamed up with the people they like

[00:36:00] then comes the kicker where the announcer says there we play against their partners and the player who manages to take all 10 marbles wins and that was just such a punch of a moment I think yeah in the course of this whole series it might be one of the more just got punched moments like oh shit they show the husband and wife playing together like the wife just goes oh boy.

[00:36:27] Oh I didn't even realize they were husband and wife yeah yeah no that's why they went and split up during tug or they were together okay I gotta watch it go back and watch it all again so that's all I had to say I just thought it was very deliberately set up to make us feel like shit good job yeah I also I loved it it's like they say that there's like send me these like dark piano chords that play

[00:36:56] you see everyone's realizations face everyone's really upset and then it ends on the old man holding the marble and just saying oh how pretty like he's just completely oblivious to what's just been announced yeah and him being oblivious in that moment made me wonder okay all those times we've seen him just smiling to himself how many of those times was he also oblivious to what's a stake you know in the red like green like game and all of that

[00:37:26] okay Veronica yeah I guess let's talk about ducks you a little bit and sort of how I really enjoyed the segment with ducks you and his partner 278 I feel like this is enjoyable because I didn't feel bad no matter who who lost in this coupling because they're both just pretty despicable but if I

[00:37:56] got a lot of giggles just at how 278 was just gleeful he was like you know what I finally get to say all the things I want to to duck suit and it doesn't matter because either he's dead or I'm dead but nothing's gonna happen to me and I'm gonna live up these last couple minutes that that I might have and really like troll this guy who has kind of been the big bully and has made me be his minion

[00:38:24] and so I took a lot of delight in his delight I mean he still was despicable like I don't I think I would have felt equally you know unbad about being his partner if I won and he he died but it was a great I think pairing for ducks you and I love just how upset ducks who was getting with it and as he began to lose and sort of the fit he wanted to throw but really

[00:38:54] realizing you know his physical strength his intimidation is not going to work in this scenario and he has to figure out a different way I just found that all very very entertaining and and just really I guess a fitting demise for 278 given his behavior although I would have much rather seen ducks who I think lose this one

[00:39:23] yeah I mean he this was the only interaction we've heard from a guard to so when ducks who does get mad and realizes that he's losing and he wants to change the game and 278 won't let him he goes to the guard and it's like hey look it's only fair if I get to you know choose to and the guard says request accepted

[00:39:49] I think that's really one of the first at least in this episode it's the only time we hear a guard really say anything I think is pretty rare that we've heard any of the guards speak to the players.

[00:40:02] I didn't feel like that guard made that decision though because right he's got the he's wearing the camera audio so it kind of occurred to me that the front man probably made that decision interesting.

[00:40:16] I didn't make me question okay so they said you need to play a game and then whoever manages to get all the marbles wins and so I guess the implication is that once they've decided on a game that's the game they need to play which is why they needed to get permission to change change it but then I would assume that both players would need to agree on that.

[00:40:39] And if I was the other guy I would have said no no no I don't agree but it didn't seem like you had a choice so that was a little it felt like.

[00:40:48] Little wishy washy with the rules there to me yeah yeah I'm with you Veronica I thought this was a delightful pair because it kind of gives you the viewer some relief from all this worry you have for all the people like with them to you just get to be a spectator and you don't care who loses.

[00:41:06] Yeah although I was bummed when Duxu came back in one I knew he probably would but I was kind of hoping he wouldn't but yes for the most part yes yeah it was interesting.

[00:41:15] And I wanted him I wanted him to lose because I hate the character but for the entertainment of their remainder of the show I'm glad that Duxu just told around because he's definitely a more interesting character than 278 was.

[00:41:31] Yeah I mean he misjudges this whole game and we've seen him do this before based on his own strengths he's like I've got physical strength I've got my lackey like I'm good and it's kind of the same thing that happened to him in the outside world.

[00:41:45] Whoops yeah you know and that goes bad for him but it is also I think the first time well I take that back it's not really the first time he found the where with all to sort of cheat with the doctor and get a little advantage at one point.

[00:42:01] And in this case he's clever enough to when he's losing change the conditions of the game so he does have some canningness to him as well as just being a bully.

[00:42:15] Yeah I think his downfall is thinking he can always control people with his like physical aggression.

[00:42:22] Absolutely and I think he rules by force and fear and whether he realizes or not

[00:42:30] everything that this guy was saying to him is how all his minions feel about him but would never dare to say because they're afraid of him but he found himself in a situation of very peculiar specific situation where that was taken off the table and it really unsettled me tell I can't do anything about it cuz there's no violence allowed so it was so I mean and it's really because one of the peculiar dynamics of the situation as I think David you kind of alluded to earlier is that the there's

[00:43:00] nothing left to lose for these players there and they're only together I mean really they're close enough together that no one else around can really hear so it's the same it's a similar dynamic between

[00:43:15] G.N. and Sabio nothing left to lose between them so that makes sabio feel comfortable finally opening up where she would have never trusted anyone to do that before so it's the sim that's how two different types of people handle that situation with ducks you and his minion nothing left to lose so you get to say what did you say you puny little idiot dog and things like that.

[00:43:45] I do think that ducks too probably I mean I felt like all of the characters to begin this episode like everyone just looked beat I mean I think they've lurched that way since the very first game like obviously this is complete trauma they're going through but the men are starting to get like stubble and everybody just looked like nobody's been sleeping

[00:44:08] they looked exhausted and I think on top of that duck Sue also seemed really shaken by the doctor being taken down and not only did he lose like one of his partners in crime who was giving him an advantage but I think he was probably also like oh no like I benefited from this cheating could they find me out what am I going to end up in this same scenario as the doctor

[00:44:36] and so I think he was already more off kilter than he really you know normally is and then he goes into this game immediately has this guy who he thinks is his crony laughing at his demise and he's losing like the fact that he didn't sort of come more unhinged is honestly a little impressive for this character like the fact that he didn't resort

[00:45:00] like was able to control his physical aggression is honestly probably impressive if you look at his past behavior.

[00:45:10] Yeah I hadn't thought about that but you're right because he was very concerned with where the doctor was in the last episode and then we seem find out here and so yeah he's got to be worried about it talking all about cheating.

[00:45:23] So David your turn.

[00:45:26] So I would say this whole episode is built really around four pairs we've talked about ducks who in player 278 let's talk about song moving only.

[00:45:39] So he chooses Ali pairs up with him promises them they'll both win the money and go home to their families I think we know very well that some who doesn't not actually believe that.

[00:45:53] You know he almost before anyone else realizes that to use your term Jason this is pretty much a zero some game or probably will be at the end so he's going to use Ali for his physical strength.

[00:46:08] If you remember in the previous episode Ali asked on what are you doing in here and he said I didn't have money to make money and I think he views Ali is essentially his money to make money this is like raw material he can use to help further.

[00:46:27] His own victory so it made me wonder and they left this ambiguous.

[00:46:35] So I think he views Ali as a character whose physical strength would be handy I think he views him as someone he can manipulate someone he smarter than yes and it made me wonder if he was also clever enough to realize that the pairs might be opponents instead of allies.

[00:46:55] You're appearing in which he would have the advantage that they don't really make that explicit.

[00:47:00] Even if he didn't realize that he may have thought it was a possibility and known that you're he can manipulate Ali more than anyone else in this place right yeah he can get him to do it could be to an advantage either way whether they're on the same team or not.

[00:47:14] So then when we see song will finally actually losing to Ali and really this game has a major luck element in it.

[00:47:26] It's hard to outsmart your partner in the marbles game they're playing there there's a lot of good fortune or bad fortune involved.

[00:47:34] He really loses his cool for a moment accuses all the cheating threatens him and you can kind of see the unsuccessful song move from the outside world coming through like that he does not keep his cool when things go wrong and it gets worse and worse and worse.

[00:47:51] And I don't think there's any strategy in that moment when he's being angry or he's just lost it like you said and then the strategy starts to kick it right.

[00:48:00] And he changes his tune he convinces them they can both survive it's just a series of lies that his own family will die if he doesn't come home which is not true.

[00:48:13] There might be some consequences like to his mom but his family's not going to be killed that they can both survive he knows that's not true and then ultimately just directly steals his marbles and basically gets him.

[00:48:29] But I think he's been setting up this moment with all the work he's put into the relationship and all that investment he put into Ali playing on his good nature his respect for him pays off and then in the greater sort of archetypes of the story I think Ali is the perfect adage for like the savage society we've seen unspooling in this story which is nice guys finish last.

[00:48:58] I mean he's really genuinely a nice guy and get some killed in the end.

[00:49:05] Yeah it was really heartbreaking to see I mean the fact that he didn't know what even an odd were you're like oh you're fucked dude.

[00:49:16] But the fact that he was still winning even not.

[00:49:19] I feel like that probably is what made saying will break even worse just like in his head he's probably this I'm not even beating this idiot.

[00:49:29] Like I don't think Ali is an idiot but I can think saying who is sort of superior attitude to everyone else he kind of can't even believe it like he can't accept that he would go out this way of

[00:49:42] to this guy who he thinks is an idiot.

[00:49:47] I feel like Ali seems just naive I don't know if I would call him a man.

[00:49:52] Very naive yeah maybe he's smart in his own way and his own really whatever but he's very naive and yeah that's all.

[00:50:02] I didn't even understand and I don't know what he was saying he said okay the other teams will not have picked a winner by the time the time limit's up but

[00:50:17] I know they won't just kill everyone and that's like well yeah have you been have you been paying attention they will do that but that was his I know they won't just kill anyone.

[00:50:29] Okay fine because they want to have people win and then so somehow that means Ali and saying we can combine forces and play against the other team that was the stretch that didn't make any sense

[00:50:39] and I think maybe the idea was it really didn't make sense to Ali either but he just presumed that okay he knows what he's talking about he has my best interest at heart I'm just going to trust that what he's saying makes sense.

[00:50:52] And he has such respect for him.

[00:50:54] He's like okay I'm just going to believe him one thing I did not catch the first few times I guess I watched this episode is that because really the game's over when you're down to one marble

[00:51:07] if you're playing this odd even thing right because it can only be odd unless it's your turn to guess right but he could have done what the old man did to Geun and said okay I mean you have to bet all of yours to get the one of mine like he probably could have manipulated that out of Ali if he thought of it.

[00:51:27] Yeah yeah I was thinking about it because Geun got down to one and so did saying but I think with saying who it was Ali's turn it was to guess so that means saying we had no chance of winning with Geun when he's had one it was his turn to guess

[00:51:45] right can still come back honestly if he'd had the luck.

[00:51:50] Yeah I don't think any of what he said made sense either but I feel like Ali like you said in addition to his respect for saying will I mean he just seemed so tired so emotionally distraught that there was no way his brain was going to process what sang with was saying to him.

[00:52:11] And so even though he did seem confused by it and like it didn't make sense I think he was just so discombobulated by everything that he was like all right I'm just going to go do what he said even though I don't really understand.

[00:52:23] And I mean I appreciated a couple of things up so that when saying who said you know can you just let me win and Ali didn't say yes he said no I have my family to think about that made it feel that's good writing where yes we can do it.

[00:52:41] And we know this guy really respects him and admires him but not enough to give him a light on his life for him so then

[00:52:51] but then when he said okay offered this ludicrous way out like Ali really didn't want to have to consign saying who to death so he would take something that didn't really make sense and go with that just on some hope that it actually would turn out the way someone was saying and I found that believable too.

[00:53:11] And how tragic was it when he came back at the three-minute mark he's calling sang was name and sang was walking out of the arena like that was just so sad and tragic you know that he's still calling his name and sang was hesitates he hears it but then you hear that gunshot I thought that was pretty well done and really sad.

[00:53:37] Yeah I had completely forgotten this whole like I knew that saying who came out of this scenario but I did not remember how he tricked Ali and so I think not remembering that allowed me to maybe not push thing over into such a harsh category up until this point I think at this point you know that's a full reveal of who he really is what he's been sort of.

[00:54:07] And then he's working up to have set up in his in his sort of playing field this whole time and really shifted how I see him as a character and what I will expect from him going forward but I had forgotten for my first watch through.

[00:54:25] It's good to do it for gotten because then you can discover it again you know.

[00:54:32] But again the rules felt a little iffy there because the rules say let's see in this game using your set of 10 marbles you will play the game of your choice with your partner the player manages who manages to take all 10 marbles from their partner wins so technically the rules don't say that you need to take all marbles by winning the game they just say you play the game that you choose and then whoever manages to take all the marbles wins.

[00:55:01] They also didn't say anything about violence that I saw but clearly you weren't allowed to have violence because when ducks who started to get aggressive one of the no it was when saying who sang who one of the triangle guys and then he even said later he said saying we said the rules said we could play whatever game to get our opponent to give us theirs and the players cannot acquire them using violence which we never heard so with that on the cutting room floor I don't know.

[00:55:30] But anyway you know Ali did not agree to this game so I guess it's just I don't know the real point is just seeing putting these players in this situation and seeing whether or not they would compromise their morals to stay alive.

[00:55:53] I really think what sang who did is no better or worse than what Gihun did I feel like they're morally the same they cheated their partners.

[00:56:23] I don't think that like they're both cheating like they're both really bad but I think for some reason it feels yeah just for me there's other people depending on you.

[00:56:43] I don't know that it is but Ali is similar to say be out of the cat it's my turn right I can go into my next point which I'll focus on another pair say be out and G young and Ali is similar similar to say you because they both have family depending on them.

[00:57:02] But sang who G young sacrifice herself for say be out because she's she has family depending on her saying who cheats Ali even though he has family depending on them so that's it was interesting contrast to the two pairs to were kind of similar but their partners were way different.

[00:57:19] But so say be out and G young decide to end the game in one round but wait till the end which I don't know if I would just be like let's get it over with right now but the drama of that was then they get to have these deep conversations with each other and our sub you feels comfortable sharing with yourself and I mean yeah the whole idea was just to show what say be all had been through and that she had these people.

[00:57:49] And she had been there and even though she had also been through a lot that had pretty much taken everything from her and she had nothing left when she left the jail.

[00:58:00] There was no one to pick her up she doesn't have her family name anymore I presume because she doesn't want to be associated with her father who had killed her mother in case people don't remember and it sounded like implied that he had sexually abused her and she sounds like she had no one she had nowhere to go when she could do it.

[00:58:19] So what got out of their meaning she has no family or anything couldn't think of what she was going to do with the money so what they're left with is that say be all is needed by people and young just had herself and decided to sacrifice yourself and that was a cool I mean tragic touching story it made me and dear to both of them

[00:58:40] and dear to say be all in that she was so upset the geome geome did that for her you know no don't you do that so it was just it was a great to have these four different pairs of characters that turned out so differently with some similarities some different differences this one was the most heartwarming in a tragic way.

[00:59:01] Yeah this one was so touching I think this is my favorite like pairing of the episode and I feel like the juxtaposition of this with saying who just made it seem that much worse right because saying who could have made this same decision right like he has his mother that seems to be it not that she's nothing and she seemed you know to still be healthy and running her little shop so I'm not discounted.

[00:59:31] There was a lot of people that were wanting her but you know he could have made a similar decision and he wouldn't have the decision he could've just accepted his loss his fair loss and allowed Ali to go on right knowing that Ali had so much more to live for yeah he could have just played fairly yeah.

[00:59:51] 그리스마스에 의해서 그는 그의 기회가

[01:00:04] 더 그의 역사가

[01:00:06] 그의 수준에

[01:00:10] 내가 그는 그의 수준에

[01:00:13] 그의 수준에

[01:00:13] 그의 수준에

[01:00:16] 그의 수준에

[01:00:17] 그의 수준에

[01:00:19] 그의 수준에

[01:00:19] 그는 더

[01:00:34] 이

[01:00:48] 그 자식이

[01:01:02] 그의

[01:01:46] 유지한지 모르고 생각나서

[01:01:49] she wasn't that long

[01:01:50] because she doesn't seem that old

[01:01:51] right

[01:01:51] although we don't know what age

[01:01:53] less than a charge

[01:01:55] that's true

[01:01:57] and if she was a juvenile

[01:01:58] after it is a lesser

[01:02:00] I don't know in Korea

[01:02:02] but

[01:02:04] I think

[01:02:05] maybe that's why

[01:02:07] she suggested that they tell each other things

[01:02:10] that they never told anyone before

[01:02:11] because she just wanted to get off

[01:02:12] all that off her chest

[01:02:14] you know she never told anyone

[01:02:15] 그리고 저는 또

[01:02:30] 그는 이 자식의

[01:02:51] 저의

[01:03:05] 아, 그는 한 month에

[01:03:27] 지금 지영이 says

[01:03:31] and there I saw my so called dad

[01:03:33] with a knife in his hand.

[01:03:36] my Alexa from the next room

[01:03:39] start saying knife, knife, knife, knife.

[01:03:42] 10 times in a row.

[01:03:45] And so I obviously like

[01:03:48] I'm on edge because I've been watching squid games

[01:03:52] and I lose my cool.

[01:03:55] I start yelling Alexa what was that?

[01:03:58] which she then proceeds to repeat to me

[01:04:00] what she said, which is knife 10 times in a row.

[01:04:05] And I I'm like losing it.

[01:04:07] I'm like Alexa, Alexa stop saying that.

[01:04:09] Alexa stop saying that.

[01:04:11] Alexa why are you saying that?

[01:04:13] Alexa Alexa why are you saying that?

[01:04:15] And then it finally I was able to pull this whole transcript

[01:04:18] of what happened and it ends with me just saying

[01:04:21] Alexa Alexa why?

[01:04:25] You can actually have the recording where you can hear

[01:04:28] how like terrified I am.

[01:04:30] You can hear my voice as it gets closer to the Alexa.

[01:04:33] I definitely like unplugged after that

[01:04:37] and was super freaked out.

[01:04:40] But like looking the transcript up

[01:04:43] she for some reason thought that

[01:04:48] Jae-young said

[01:04:51] what's my so called the knife is the question

[01:04:54] that she like registered in the text

[01:04:56] and for some reason that question prompted her

[01:04:59] to say just the word knife.

[01:05:01] And before the last knife she would say and knife.

[01:05:04] So it was a very specific 10.

[01:05:08] I've never been able to get her

[01:05:09] like I wasn't able to get her to replicate it

[01:05:11] when I asked her that again.

[01:05:12] So I don't know what malfunctioned in her.

[01:05:16] But I now have like a fear that Alexa is going to try

[01:05:20] to stab me at some point.

[01:05:23] I don't even have an Alexa anymore.

[01:05:25] Don't be afraid of it.

[01:05:27] Everything's fine.

[01:05:28] It's fine.

[01:05:30] For a while there I think Alexa was just

[01:05:33] out of the blue would just go like that.

[01:05:39] Do you have that recording?

[01:05:41] We got to put that in the pot.

[01:05:42] I do.

[01:05:43] I do.

[01:05:44] I can send it to you, Jason.

[01:05:46] I don't know if it's usable.

[01:05:47] It's sort of awkward and choppy but

[01:05:49] I'm amazing.

[01:05:51] It's sort of embarrassing just because

[01:05:53] I mean, when do you get to hear yourself

[01:05:56] like genuine fear in your voice?

[01:05:59] So it's sort of funny to listen to it.

[01:06:02] I'll email it to you.

[01:06:03] Alexa!

[01:06:05] Why are you saying that?

[01:06:07] Alexa, stop saying that!

[01:06:10] I mean, I'd say there's a 90% chance

[01:06:13] that you just triggered

[01:06:15] a bunch of some people's Alexa's to do something.

[01:06:17] I know.

[01:06:19] Hopefully they're not saying nice at you.

[01:06:22] If they are, I am so sorry.

[01:06:25] I have activated the Alexa takeover

[01:06:29] across the world.

[01:06:32] It's funny.

[01:06:33] Amazing.

[01:06:35] I forgot who's turned it is.

[01:06:38] I think it's Veronica.

[01:06:39] Veronica.

[01:06:41] So,

[01:06:44] Jihoon and player one.

[01:06:46] This is really just so I think tragic

[01:06:52] and by the end,

[01:06:53] I felt sort of conflicted

[01:06:55] and unsure of how harshly I judged Jihoon.

[01:07:00] I sort of already said

[01:07:03] I think it would be really hard

[01:07:07] losing to player one when you're seeing him

[01:07:11] in the mental state that he is

[01:07:13] and when you feel like you could really win the game.

[01:07:16] But I don't know that I would make

[01:07:20] that decision to trick him.

[01:07:21] I don't think I could live with myself afterwards

[01:07:25] but I could understand

[01:07:29] Jihoon going down.

[01:07:31] I could understand the temptation

[01:07:33] and why he gave into it.

[01:07:36] Absolutely.

[01:07:37] It's true.

[01:07:38] I'm not saying that it's why I don't think

[01:07:40] it was a good choice to make.

[01:07:42] I'm not saying it's what I would do

[01:07:43] but I could understand

[01:07:46] feeling that temptation

[01:07:47] and sort of giving into it.

[01:07:50] You know,

[01:07:51] and I just thought of something

[01:07:53] that makes what Jihoon did

[01:07:55] a little less morally bad than Sangwoo too

[01:07:58] is that Sangwoo picked Ali

[01:08:01] with the idea clearly

[01:08:04] that he could manipulate him if he needed to

[01:08:07] which could as we all know

[01:08:09] and this could end up in his death.

[01:08:10] But Jihoon picked

[01:08:14] the old man with the hopes of trying to save his life.

[01:08:17] So I do think that makes it a little bit better too.

[01:08:20] But yeah, that once you're in the situation

[01:08:22] and it's either going to be

[01:08:25] Jihoon or the old man then

[01:08:28] yeah, I can't

[01:08:30] say I wouldn't be tempted either

[01:08:32] when he's like,

[01:08:33] did I say odd or even?

[01:08:35] I think the other thing

[01:08:38] that made me feel conflicted

[01:08:41] about conflicted I guess

[01:08:43] was the reveal that the old man

[01:08:45] was basically testing him

[01:08:47] by acting confused

[01:08:49] that he actually knew

[01:08:52] that Jihoon was tricking him

[01:08:55] which sort of made me think

[01:08:57] that when he initially asked

[01:08:59] the question of

[01:09:01] which one did I say

[01:09:03] that he knew what he said

[01:09:06] because he knew that Jihoon tricked him

[01:09:08] and then he knew that Jihoon continued to trick him.

[01:09:11] And I guess was that fair

[01:09:15] to try to bait your friend

[01:09:17] into tricking you

[01:09:18] to see what he would do.

[01:09:21] I don't think that makes it any better

[01:09:24] that Jihoon made the decision to trick him

[01:09:27] but it does when you know

[01:09:28] the whole story

[01:09:29] I felt like it further complicated

[01:09:32] how I felt about the whole scenario.

[01:09:35] I don't know.

[01:09:36] What do you guys think?

[01:09:38] Yeah.

[01:09:39] I took this whole relationship

[01:09:41] as a stand-in for

[01:09:44] in a sense of father-son relationship

[01:09:46] but also with maybe

[01:09:49] a very old parent or grandparent

[01:09:53] and all the difficulties

[01:09:55] and mixed feelings

[01:09:56] that come into that kind of relationship

[01:09:58] I think it's pretty clear

[01:10:00] that Ilnom views Jihoon

[01:10:03] as a stand-in for his son

[01:10:06] from whom it sounds like he might be estranged in some way

[01:10:10] or at least it's a strained relationship

[01:10:13] that he seems excluded from.

[01:10:17] Late in his life

[01:10:18] so we have Jihoon who has protected him

[01:10:21] and treated him with respect

[01:10:22] and kindness throughout the game

[01:10:25] but then we also have those mixed feelings

[01:10:28] of where

[01:10:31] you know late in life

[01:10:34] often adult children have to sacrifice themselves

[01:10:37] to take care of an elderly parent

[01:10:39] or sacrifice themselves financially

[01:10:42] and all the mixed feelings that come with that

[01:10:45] and I think all those conflicts

[01:10:48] come into this relationship

[01:10:49] and ultimately Ilnom

[01:10:52] chooses to make the sacrifice

[01:10:54] for his surrogate child.

[01:10:58] And I don't know that that makes it better

[01:11:00] what Jihoon did

[01:11:03] but at least it is the old man's choice to accept it

[01:11:07] and he chooses consciously to accept it.

[01:11:11] That's interesting yeah

[01:11:12] because he doesn't say

[01:11:15] I mean he put him through that test

[01:11:19] just to sort of shame him and then say

[01:11:21] but it's all right

[01:11:22] we're friends

[01:11:24] you go ahead and live all die

[01:11:25] and it's like

[01:11:27] why why should you do that?

[01:11:29] So

[01:11:31] I think the explanation you give is as good as any architect of

[01:11:35] the same

[01:11:36] One thing that the question I had is

[01:11:39] so we find out that

[01:11:41] the old man

[01:11:42] knew Jihoon was cheating

[01:11:44] him the whole time

[01:11:46] and so what does that say about his

[01:11:49] confused behavior

[01:11:50] throughout the series

[01:11:52] was he

[01:11:53] faking it the whole time

[01:11:54] did he pee himself on purpose

[01:11:57] or what

[01:11:58] you know

[01:12:00] I think it is possible that he was confused

[01:12:03] the first time

[01:12:05] and tested him the second time

[01:12:08] yeah

[01:12:10] yeah

[01:12:10] it's possible

[01:12:11] maybe

[01:12:13] So then was he

[01:12:15] actually

[01:12:17] confused

[01:12:18] and slipping back into thinking

[01:12:20] he was in a real old neighborhood

[01:12:22] or was that also

[01:12:24] a mechanism he was using to

[01:12:27] you know, stress Jihoon out

[01:12:30] to the wire

[01:12:32] I don't know

[01:12:33] I learned from the walking dead

[01:12:35] that it's very hard to pee on yourself

[01:12:37] on purpose

[01:12:39] sorry there's like one episode of the walking dead

[01:12:42] where someone does that

[01:12:43] they pee on themselves on purpose

[01:12:46] to make it look like they're scared

[01:12:47] and then they pull a gun

[01:12:48] it's one of the saviors

[01:12:50] but when I was trying

[01:12:53] to I was basically going in my head

[01:12:55] through

[01:12:56] what you just said of

[01:12:57] like one of his past

[01:12:58] behavior was real and not

[01:13:00] and I think

[01:13:02] yeah, I don't know

[01:13:04] it's very confusing to me

[01:13:06] about what player went

[01:13:10] what actually was going on

[01:13:12] mentally for him

[01:13:13] throughout the whole game

[01:13:14] It is hard to sort through

[01:13:15] but I think as

[01:13:17] as they portray him

[01:13:18] he's going in and out of lucidity

[01:13:21] as

[01:13:22] you know, many of us have experienced

[01:13:24] with an older parent

[01:13:25] or a grandparent

[01:13:27] or our son occasionally

[01:13:28] to write that too

[01:13:31] after laid on a Saturday night

[01:13:34] but

[01:13:36] I think there were

[01:13:38] some things he could not fake

[01:13:40] I mean, he had a fever at one point

[01:13:43] That's true

[01:13:44] yeah good point

[01:13:45] I don't know, I faked a lot of fevers in milk

[01:13:47] was he near a light bulb

[01:13:49] I don't know

[01:13:50] yeah

[01:13:51] good point

[01:13:52] All right, you have any notes

[01:13:54] Veronica?

[01:13:55] Yeah so I think the only thing

[01:13:57] I don't know if we touched on

[01:13:59] was just that

[01:14:01] Min Yao,

[01:14:03] she got left as a single player

[01:14:08] and the guards pull her away

[01:14:12] the players all hear her screaming

[01:14:14] in the next room

[01:14:16] but we never get an announcement

[01:14:18] that I forget where her number is

[01:14:20] but that player

[01:14:21] yeah

[01:14:22] whoever has died

[01:14:24] I don't remember what happened

[01:14:25] but I presume she's alive

[01:14:27] because

[01:14:27] or else we would have seen

[01:14:29] that right

[01:14:30] yeah

[01:14:31] but it was very tense

[01:14:33] to see her left all alone

[01:14:34] with all those triangle guys

[01:14:36] in the room

[01:14:38] thinking that

[01:14:39] she could easily just be shot

[01:14:42] yeah

[01:14:44] David

[01:14:46] just a couple

[01:14:48] one is just to touch on the blue

[01:14:49] Daniel Waltz again

[01:14:51] it's so evocative

[01:14:54] in this show

[01:14:55] and I know we've talked about it once before

[01:14:58] just a little background on that musical piece

[01:15:01] which I think is one of the most

[01:15:04] famous melodies ever written

[01:15:05] or pieces ever written

[01:15:07] it was composed in 1866

[01:15:09] by a

[01:15:10] Austrian composer named Johann Strauss

[01:15:13] and then it was released

[01:15:15] in 1867 for the Paris World's Fair

[01:15:18] so there's a choral version

[01:15:20] and a symphonic version

[01:15:22] that was like a world sensation

[01:15:25] and success

[01:15:26] they even sort of called an

[01:15:27] unofficial national anthem for Austria

[01:15:32] but I had mentioned it was in 2001

[01:15:34] a space Odyssey

[01:15:35] also

[01:15:36] in ground hotel

[01:15:37] which is a famous movie from the 30s

[01:15:40] heraldon mod

[01:15:41] which is one of my favorite movies

[01:15:43] true lies it was used in Titanic

[01:15:48] and I read it's been used

[01:15:50] you know in one way or another

[01:15:51] in something like 30 or 40 movies

[01:15:54] so maybe one of the most

[01:15:55] oft pieces of music used in the movies

[01:15:58] but where was it here

[01:16:00] I don't remember

[01:16:01] it's the music that's playing

[01:16:03] when they walk to each game

[01:16:06] okay yeah

[01:16:09] and

[01:16:11] yeah

[01:16:11] and that music

[01:16:12] plus the

[01:16:13] what is already to me is such a

[01:16:15] disconcerting stairwell

[01:16:18] and then having the

[01:16:19] the violet display of people hanging

[01:16:23] against the backdrop

[01:16:25] of that music

[01:16:26] and that pastel stairway

[01:16:28] is so unsettling to me

[01:16:31] the pastels make it

[01:16:32] so nice though

[01:16:33] but other than that

[01:16:35] relaxing

[01:16:36] yeah

[01:16:38] and then the other one was

[01:16:40] jazu island

[01:16:41] I don't which I don't know if i'm pronouncing correctly

[01:16:44] but that was where

[01:16:46] sebiya reference she would want to go

[01:16:48] on vacation

[01:16:49] if she won the money

[01:16:51] not to Hawaii

[01:16:52] or the Maldives

[01:16:53] where jion suggests

[01:16:57] so this is the wiki

[01:16:59] the island lies in the career straight south of the

[01:17:02] Korean peninsula

[01:17:03] and south july a province

[01:17:07] located 51 miles

[01:17:09] off the nearest point on the peninsula

[01:17:12] jazu is one of two special self-governing

[01:17:15] provinces in south korea

[01:17:18] meaning that it's run by local politicians

[01:17:20] the jazu people are indigenous to the island

[01:17:23] and it has been populated by modern humans

[01:17:25] since the early neolithic period

[01:17:27] so

[01:17:28] an old place but a vacation destination for

[01:17:32] koreans and this is what trip advisor says about it

[01:17:35] where else can you find an azalea

[01:17:38] frame volcano decline

[01:17:40] a sisterhood of deep divers

[01:17:42] and ancient stone statues on which to make wishes

[01:17:47] favorite with newlyweds

[01:17:48] and k-drama fans

[01:17:49] this popular retreat

[01:17:50] is also home to miles of golden beaches

[01:17:53] winding coastal trails

[01:17:55] and jazu water world

[01:17:57] the area's largest water park

[01:18:00] and so sounds like a pretty interesting place

[01:18:03] yeah i'd love to see it someday

[01:18:05] sounds good

[01:18:06] i've been to Hawaii

[01:18:07] i know

[01:18:07] well maybe when you win squid games

[01:18:09] that's where you get to go

[01:18:14] so

[01:18:15] i just had a couple things about marbles

[01:18:18] it's just so weird

[01:18:20] like anything with squid game

[01:18:21] they have this much tension over marbles

[01:18:24] life or death

[01:18:25] i was thinking marbles for all the marbles

[01:18:28] and i was looking up the history of marbles

[01:18:31] and wikipedia says in the early 20th century small

[01:18:35] balls of stone from about

[01:18:36] 2500 BCE

[01:18:39] identified by archaeologist as marbles were found

[01:18:41] by excavation near

[01:18:44] mojinho d'aro

[01:18:45] and a site associated with the indesvalid civilization

[01:18:49] and marbles are often mentioned in roman literature

[01:18:52] as an ovid's poem knucks

[01:18:54] which mentions playing the game with walnuts

[01:18:57] and there are many examples of marbles from excavations of sites associated

[01:19:00] with chaldians of mesopotamia and ancient Egypt

[01:19:03] they're commonly made of clay, stone or glass

[01:19:07] they arrived in britain

[01:19:09] imported from low countries during the medieval era

[01:19:13] in 1503

[01:19:14] the town council of nuremberg

[01:19:16] germany

[01:19:17] limited the playing of marbles games to a meadow outside the town

[01:19:21] and the name marble used for the little toy balls comes from this region

[01:19:25] and era and refers to such balls being made of marble

[01:19:30] there's more but i just thought it was crazy

[01:19:33] going back to the 2500 BCE possibly

[01:19:38] humans love a ball game

[01:19:42] i feel really like i should have some sort of historical

[01:19:46] fact of everyone

[01:19:49] i can make something up but

[01:19:51] your Alexa story

[01:19:53] accepted you for the requirement

[01:20:21] so

[01:20:33] all right only one thing of news it's not really news

[01:20:37] kind of news it's news about me and david

[01:20:40] and david's wife karen and my wife jenny and my son niko

[01:20:44] we all have tickets to this squid game vr experience

[01:20:49] it's through a company called sandbox vr and we're going on

[01:20:53] saturday january 6th so uh we'll be playing against each other from my

[01:20:58] understanding

[01:20:59] so if there's no further episodes of this podcast you'll know

[01:21:02] maramaka that's up to you

[01:21:05] only one of us comes back

[01:21:08] what's the price i get to keep if you uh

[01:21:11] if neither of you come back

[01:21:13] remaining episodes will be niko and maramaka

[01:21:17] just talk you to myself i'll get i'll get my

[01:21:20] Alexa in here to

[01:21:22] come first with me i'm excited i hope there's no

[01:21:25] i they said they didn't say anything about an

[01:21:28] age requirement only height so i'm hoping it's

[01:21:31] family friendly it seems to be

[01:21:34] can i tell vr and ko what you uh said when you asked us if the date was okay

[01:21:39] should i buy the tickets he said should i pull the trigger

[01:21:42] all right so that's it for news we'll do a little bit of listen to feedback

[01:21:53] i thought i'd mention if you want to send feedback you can write or send a

[01:21:58] voice message to talk at podcasttaka.com or you can go on our

[01:22:03] facebook group where we put up post for each

[01:22:05] episode and you can find that on facebook just by searching on podcast

[01:22:10] fun group if you want to join so vr and ko

[01:22:16] yeah so the first comment is from maria lawson

[01:22:19] and they say so far of all the episodes this was actually the hardest

[01:22:23] episode for me to watch i had a terrible feeling they would have to play

[01:22:27] against each other when they pick partners the whole thing was just so sad

[01:22:32] i responded to her i'm like so are you gonna keep watching and she goes oh

[01:22:35] yeah it's too good to stop watching don't jump off and aside from that we just

[01:22:41] have one call it's from jenny ryan glad to hear you calling in jenny i haven't

[01:22:45] listened to the call yet but here we go hello squid game friends it's jenny from

[01:22:49] zaskatoon here i've really been enjoying your

[01:22:52] coverage and it convinced me to rewatch the show

[01:22:56] which is i never thought i would do again because it is disturbing

[01:23:02] but great anyway i two observations about the past episode you just covered

[01:23:08] one was what i thought was interesting was when they were talking about

[01:23:13] the player who woke up on the operating table and then they like had to

[01:23:18] you know put her down while they were harvesting her organs they refer to her as a zombie

[01:23:23] and what i thought was interesting is i think that that's maybe how the guards have to think

[01:23:29] of the people like they are the walking dead they are already dead

[01:23:35] they're there to die they're zombies and so that makes it easier maybe to dispatch of them when

[01:23:41] they lose a game because they've shown up in their already like dead people so humanized too

[01:23:46] um thought that was interesting how they use that word and the other thing i think is really

[01:23:52] funny about listening to you guys talk is that i think americans pronounced the game

[01:23:56] tug of war differently than Canadians do and maybe it's just me but i don't know that i can speak

[01:24:04] for my entire nation but when you guys say you all say tug of war tug of war and we say

[01:24:14] tug of war tug of war anyway it's just funny i don't know why that six man okay uh goodbye

[01:24:23] well i'd say tug of war i would say yeah i thought she was gonna say like instead of

[01:24:30] of just like tug of war because i've definitely seen and heard it that way before but i think

[01:24:36] she's focused on the whether you accent the tug or the war right interesting yeah i think you

[01:24:44] write on about the whole calling them zombies because they already think of him as dead and they're

[01:24:48] sort of dehumanizing him i would say yeah you probably have to just work there all let alone to

[01:24:56] use them as organ harvesting sources you have to tell yourself a story where it doesn't permeate

[01:25:03] all right that is our show except for the spoiler resection that we'll be doing after that but

[01:25:18] that's the main part of a show so thanks so much for listening everyone next up on the podcast

[01:25:23] will be squid game season one episode seven VIPs if you want to write in or send us a voice message

[01:25:30] about it you can find all our contact information at podcastica.com and while you're there be sure to

[01:25:37] check out our other shows what's going on right now well jason and luci are doing an amazing

[01:25:45] rewatch of the walking dead and we're on season two right now i'm enjoying it oh good yeah

[01:25:51] it's been really fun to go back and rewatch it with full knowledge of what's gonna happen in the

[01:25:56] future and just noticing different things and getting deeper into it because i'm way more analytical

[01:26:03] now it's cool it's been a lot of fun it's fun someone mentioned that they're going back and listening

[01:26:08] to the original episodes of you and karen at the same time i thought that's a really fun idea i

[01:26:14] think i might go do that and listen to the early episodes as i listen to the rewatch and sort of

[01:26:21] it's fun to listen to those early episodes and hear you guys make all the wrong predictions

[01:26:25] that all of us were probably you know coming up with two it's fun cool all right that is our show

[01:26:33] thanks for listening nice nice nice nice nice nice nice

[01:26:44] okay now we're moving into our spoiler section as usual if you don't want to be spoiled please

[01:26:49] stop listening right now and we will get back to you next week so let's go ahead we had one

[01:26:56] message from a listener that was a bit spoiler so we saved it for this section

[01:27:01] Jennifer McGinley says what can you say about marbles that episode would bring a tear to a glass eye

[01:27:08] some questions about number one the PlayStation buttons obviously know he's untouchable but have

[01:27:16] they always known if so why the extreme evaluation when he wet his pants doesn't seem to have been

[01:27:22] any protection before this game i'll have my rewatch before listening to the podcast i've definitely

[01:27:28] been putting it off no matter how many times i watch it always requires a big pack of hankies

[01:27:35] um so i think we have debated this a little bit on our spoiler sections how much has uh player number

[01:27:44] one been protected and how um it's actually one thing i really like in this show they leave it

[01:27:51] ambiguous to some extent so you can guess that he is being protected in sometimes in some ways

[01:27:58] like when the frontman called off the riot but on the other hand he could have been killed in

[01:28:04] that riot it seems like he could have put a step wrong and been killed in maybe in red light green

[01:28:11] light it sure seems like he could have been killed in the tug of war that one more than any yeah

[01:28:18] yeah so i don't know maybe the riot too but i mean in this episode when he um we know because

[01:28:25] this is spoilery that he survives so we just see him in this room we see one of the most triangle

[01:28:31] guys raise their gun to him but then we don't see what happens next we just hear the gun firing

[01:28:36] so then you got to think well at least the triangle guys in that room knew that they were not

[01:28:41] to kill him that doesn't mean that every all the other ones did you know we don't know

[01:28:47] well and i really was in the camp that i thought he knew like all the games that were happening that he

[01:28:53] was very in the know um but then last episode in this episode i sort of changed my opinion based on how

[01:29:02] they reacted to the scenario with the doctor because if they're this concerned about sort of

[01:29:08] the fairness of the games would they break their own rules in that way and have this old man have

[01:29:17] advantages i mean his advantage is that he knows the overall like theme of these games right like

[01:29:24] he's aware of the games in general and the setup so sort of being aware like in especially in the

[01:29:30] first game red light green light that was helpful for him to realize this is life and death and i

[01:29:36] just need to play the game and get through and that's how you win so that was an advantage there but

[01:29:41] from then on as long as they weren't feeding him as long as he didn't know the games and was it

[01:29:47] being protective then they're still sort of meaning their own rules that they seem to hold so

[01:29:54] sacred around the doctor and so that made me start to lean towards him not knowing and not having

[01:30:03] special protection other than you know if he loses and there's a way for him not to be killed in

[01:30:09] that um that they would do that but as far as him having advantage in the game i now have crossed over

[01:30:17] to the side of thinking no i don't think that he did then and another possibility is that even though

[01:30:22] they have espoused this sacred equality of the games that it's just bullshit you know i mean

[01:30:30] i think you're probably right but i'm just saying we don't know no and i think the point i think

[01:30:35] you guys talked about this last week was you know part of the reason that the frontman could be so

[01:30:40] upset about this form of cheating is that it could affect the people betting on it right the

[01:30:47] customer yeah people that keep these games going um and if they sort of knew ahead of time like

[01:30:54] don't bet on player one because he's off you know you know who he is or something um say what

[01:31:00] no he is because everyone's secret and where i don't know i don't know i think there might be a

[01:31:05] guess i don't know for sure but i don't think he does there might be a middle ground here because

[01:31:11] we do know he's near the end of his life i mean from the spoiler perspective we actually know he

[01:31:16] lives a year longer but he did turn out to be very seriously ill so maybe he's willing to take the

[01:31:23] risk for to have this thrill that's what he says at the end um but to whatever extent he's being

[01:31:31] protected or you know maybe would prefer not to be killed it's no fun to play any kind of game

[01:31:38] where you know you're gonna win i mean if you enjoy competition if you enjoy the thrill of playing

[01:31:45] any game no no game is fun with guaranteed victory uh so i wouldn't think he's at no risk or at

[01:31:53] least not at any not at risk of of losing or in any danger because that would take the thrill out

[01:31:59] of it um one thing that did occur to me watching this episode this time is does the fact he knows

[01:32:10] that maybe he's not going to be killed in the marble game allow him to play the marble game

[01:32:16] differently uh more aggressively uh because he bets five marbles on the first turn which is

[01:32:24] extremely aggressive and that kind of puts you in behind the eight ball so to speak right away

[01:32:29] but would you play that way if your life were actually at stake i think he always knew

[01:32:38] he was gonna let you win this game and so he knew he could just play to play make big bets how fun

[01:32:48] because there was no risk in this game for him he knew in this setup he wouldn't die

[01:32:55] he knew at this point he was playing against someone who he did have true affection for

[01:33:01] you know reminded him of his son had taken care of him just that same day by wrapping his jacket

[01:33:07] around his waist i think his plan was probably always that he wouldn't walk out of this

[01:33:14] game i don't know always always but i mean from the time that he walked into this game and knew

[01:33:21] the rules and i guess from the time he was mentally able to understand those roles

[01:33:27] i think he knew that gujoon was who he was gonna let walk out of there once they were paired off

[01:33:32] because gujoon could have chosen another partner yeah i think actually i was trying to think

[01:33:41] well it's always a question how much eel numb is actually having any episodes and how much

[01:33:47] is he pretending we know now that at least some of the time he's pretending um but so when he's sitting

[01:33:52] over in the corner when the people are being chosen i thought maybe that this could all be a test

[01:33:58] he seems to have a particular interest in gujoon he's so glad to see gujoon come back after

[01:34:03] people opted to leave and then chose whether or not to come back and um so maybe this whole thing

[01:34:09] was a test to see if gujoon would choose him to try to help him after they'd had these bonding moments

[01:34:17] and then i feel like the whole thing about setting him up to cheat to cheat him to see whether

[01:34:24] he would take the bait you know which one did he choose otter even we've already said this but

[01:34:29] that was that was a test and then when he um he uh he decides to leave the game you know to let

[01:34:40] gujoon win it's almost like or it made me think was he this whole time just testing gujoon to see

[01:34:49] when he would finally compromise his morals and then once gujoon actually did do that he had his answer

[01:34:56] and he his game was over he's like okay i found out now i can leave so there is another potential

[01:35:02] interpretation of this um which is not maybe that he was actually confused but it is a game largely

[01:35:11] of chance um and i think if once gujoon came back and chose him he decided to to help him let him

[01:35:22] live and let him win then it could be that it remember at that moment he had won or basically

[01:35:30] the game was over um so his only way out to actually let gujoon win was to pretend to be confused

[01:35:39] oh yeah that's a good point yeah so maybe rather than he's testing him is it's the only

[01:35:46] method he has so he was hoping he would take the bait you would be like come on take the bait

[01:35:54] well you know if he passes the next test and proves his moral character he'll get the chocolate

[01:36:00] factor i think you need to take your medication because i still think this is a really long

[01:36:07] situation i also i think if like questioning whether you'll numb is actually having an episode

[01:36:15] sometimes and is confused you would think maybe if he really was that he might accidentally say

[01:36:21] like my island's pretty cool huh or i can't believe i hired all these guys or something like that

[01:36:30] lucky for him as dementia seems to only put him in the past so he's not the descend pass yeah

[01:36:38] that's yeah and the other one is it seems like the neighborhood actually it was constructed to be

[01:36:44] reminiscent of his neighbor and yeah maybe that was modeled after his actual home the one yeah

[01:36:50] i thought that's what i sort of thought so g young sacrifice ended up being for nothing

[01:36:59] unfortunately because we know sebiok doesn't make it till the end but i was wondering maybe gihun would

[01:37:06] i can't remember if he learned very much about her if he would try to help her family or something

[01:37:11] he did i thought maybe he does right and so he had not had that conversation with her prior to this

[01:37:19] though to know she had family to help so that must still happen okay so that does mean that

[01:37:24] um what her name uh did do good through this like she basically saved her brother maybe her mother

[01:37:32] um we're totally in spoiler mode here yeah yeah yeah yeah he goes and gets um

[01:37:41] sebiose brother out of the orphanage and he brings him to sangwo's mom to raise

[01:37:49] oh wow trying to take care of everybody um juneho

[01:37:54] it's tense as juneho is in frontman's lair and has to hide from him but knowing what we know

[01:38:01] i wonder if frontman had caught him there would he be just like what are you doing here

[01:38:05] bro so this is what you guys spoiled me on i did not remember how this played out like

[01:38:13] i think my jaw hit the floor that i had forgotten um so much about it but i did not remember

[01:38:21] where his brother was if he was alive what it was going to be i didn't remember the frontman

[01:38:27] ended up being any person of importance um i still don't remember how it all gets revealed so i'm

[01:38:34] still sort of excited um to keep watching of course but yeah i didn't pay attention at all

[01:38:41] for next season yeah it's a story they left as a hanging child so i don't really have any idea whether

[01:38:48] the next up season is going to concern these same characters but if it does he could be part of it

[01:38:54] i think it is i think it is um one more thing about ilna mit like watching all of this

[01:39:02] this episode in particular i think his story is really moving and interesting without this twist

[01:39:08] that he's behind it all and i don't really remember many of the details of the last episode but

[01:39:13] i wonder just from what i do remember if it was worth it to have that twist or if the show would

[01:39:18] have been better off without you know that's kind of what i'm going to be looking at as we go forward

[01:39:24] to be honest i've always had mixed feelings about that yeah i think it is a clever twist

[01:39:32] um but it's a little bit clever at the expense of authenticity yeah

[01:39:40] yeah because it sort of takes away like a lot of times when there's a twist then retroactively i

[01:39:48] feel like it makes these moments that you were invested in feel false you know and so um i don't

[01:39:56] know if it's going to be totally like that in this case but maybe a little bit

[01:40:00] yeah i think for me it's the hard part is sort of not knowing um whether the episodes of dementia

[01:40:12] were real or not and i think for some reason for me that feels so much i don't know if you can get

[01:40:22] much dirtier than a guy orchestrating these games but for some reason just in the context of all

[01:40:28] those small interactions that we saw that i felt so emotionally drawn into the idea that so many

[01:40:36] those could be false and that he was just playing with gifu in the whole time just feels particularly

[01:40:44] ugly to me which is fine ugliness is interesting yeah can be i mean i'm gonna when we get to it

[01:40:52] i'm gonna be looking at it like okay what is the value of this you know and see if i can

[01:40:59] decide whether it's worth it

[01:41:02] the last thing i have is about the reality series could get in the challenge

[01:41:08] what i have to say is just a little bit spoilery david is that okay with you or

[01:41:12] sure whether i don't so they they cleverly engineer it in the reality show so that people who

[01:41:22] like each other will end up playing marbles and uh i had forgotten that that was the same kind of

[01:41:29] thing that happened in the show and also there's it in the real show and also there's at least one

[01:41:33] pair who decide to just play one game close to the wall wins but they wait until the time is almost

[01:41:40] presumably an honor of geong and sebiyeo and i wonder if the producers they probably like

[01:41:45] steered people towards trying to replicate some of but they've all seen the show too so

[01:41:49] anyway i thought the marble game in the reality show is particularly interesting because of that

[01:41:57] yeah it was hard not to reflect on that while watching this episode this time and think about

[01:42:03] the similarities and i think there was one piece that really i already felt frustrated

[01:42:13] one of the characters in the competition game uses the beginning to like share you know here's

[01:42:20] what i do with the money and here's you know i'd give it to charity i'd do this because i had a friend

[01:42:25] that had cancer or something and he asked the partner that he's with what would you do

[01:42:31] and she mentions well i'm just like glad to get to be on the show and have this platform because

[01:42:37] i have a hearing disability and i'm going to represent that and he just like cuts into her for

[01:42:44] trying to play the like sob story card which drove me nuts one because if you were a fan of the

[01:42:52] show you know that's sort of like what's supposed to happen in this piece right is that you're

[01:42:57] supposed to talk about it and talking about it is even in the in the fictional show what helped

[01:43:04] some characters make those decisions by then the other piece that really bothered me about it

[01:43:09] in the competition show was that the guy that got so angry had literally just talked about

[01:43:15] that he wanted to give money to like a foundation and to me that seems a little bit like

[01:43:20] hey you know take pity on me i'm gonna do something good with the money so

[01:43:25] i started reflecting on that and feeling annoyed at that and then annoyed at some of the other

[01:43:30] pairings and the things they did but then also it was cool how some of them chose these same games to

[01:43:36] play right yeah they all they kind of covered all the games that we saw in the show yeah in the real

[01:43:43] show they didn't cover a scenario where two people didn't agree on a winner and nobody got

[01:43:49] all the marbles did they like all of our teams yeah in this fictional show everybody had a winner

[01:43:55] and a loser right well i think the time ran out and then did we hear any gunshots after that

[01:44:02] I think we may have so the implication was that some people were not finished yet

[01:44:07] I can't remember that for sure but we didn't actually see it we'll find out when we see how many

[01:44:12] people are left oh that's a good point yeah that's a good point so any other spoilery stuff

[01:44:18] that you guys want to talk about that's it for me yep all right thanks everybody bye

[01:44:26] thanks gang

[01:44:27] Alexa why are you saying that Alexa why Alexa