12: "Cruel Intentions (1999)"

[00:00:00] Mm?

[00:00:01] Ah!

[00:00:02] Hmm.

[00:00:04] Uncatsby go!

[00:00:06] Who are you calling?

[00:00:09] Suzie.

[00:00:10] What?

[00:00:11] Ah, what are you doing?

[00:00:13] Before we go through with this, I just want to make you aware of the damage we're

[00:00:16] about to cause.

[00:00:18] I'm aware.

[00:00:21] Ah.

[00:00:23] Are you really?

[00:00:24] I mean, we've done some pretty fucked up shit in our time, but this is... Let's call her. along with Ryan Phillipi, Reese Witherspoon, Selma Blair, Sean Patrick Thomas, Joshua Jackson, one of my personal favorites, and Christine Vronsky and Louise Fletcher. So Jim, welcome back to Still Slaying. Listeners, you probably remember Jim very enthusiastically participating in our episode seven,

[00:03:04] which was about phases. theater. I remember going and seeing it. So I guess it kind of fits in the motif quite well. That's fantastic. I also saw it in the theater. 1999 was one of the best years of my life. I was in law school in New York City, single, having a good time with being an unattached, unemployed person in New York City. Like being a

[00:04:22] grad student is so you have such flexible time that you can take advantage of a like this miraculous new millennium. So it was, yeah, it was a wonderful time in my life. Like millennials have all sorts of issues because I was in fifth grade in 1999. It was the second half of fifth grade. It was fantastic. Like, I feel like 1999 was just like peak

[00:05:41] childhood for me. You know, it's very different to see it as a middle-aged woman than it was when I was in my 20s and I was a freewheeling single person in New York City, right? Like

[00:07:04] I didn't hang with the you know ultra wealthy prep movie, but I just trying to put it all into perspective, kind of watching these parallel people kind of going toe to toe in this movie was just so interesting. Well, let's go back to 1999 a little bit.

[00:08:20] Are we gonna start singing Prince now?

[00:08:22] Oh, that'd be fun.

[00:08:25] The film was released on March 5th of 1999, was number two though. So we're going to talk about it being a cult classic, but I do think that it actually was a pretty decent size box office hit back in the day. And then you, in our notes, you had a very interesting life cover. And I do actually remember that I actually think I have this

[00:09:40] somewhere on the cover was the Secret Lives of Teens, where they talked to real teenagers

[00:10:44] judging from the results of a new CNN USA Today Gallup poll. Most Americans continue to have a jaded view of President Bill Clinton's ex-lover,

[00:10:47] consider her immature and shameless and think she would have another affair with a married

[00:10:52] man if she thought she could get away with it.

[00:10:54] It's interesting because it took, what, 20 years for her to do an interview that people

[00:10:58] accepted.

[00:11:00] It's just such a ton of sense. But I also did want to note, you're a, I'm not sure if this is elsewhere in the podcast, but the Life magazine cover happens to have Katie Holmes on the carpet. Oh, yes. Who looks like a child in this picture.

[00:12:20] Yeah, this is like the sweetest, innocent, striking picture of her.

[00:12:24] It's appropriate too for this one,

[00:12:26] because I think, I'm sure, inevitably, she did because if that had been a doormat role, the whole film would have fallen apart. It just wouldn't have been as interesting. Like the fact that she is like a worthy opponent for Sebastian is so important to the triangle and the chemistry. Jim alluded to this, the production information. Cruel Intentions was a moderate commercial success.

[00:13:42] It grossed $13 million and it's opening weekend.

[00:13:47] Number two, behind Analyze This. review that he wrote on this one. It seems like a good time to bring it up. The opening line is teenagers once went to the movies to see adults making love. Now adults go to the movies to see teenagers making love. And I was like that just kind of captures that whole trend in the late 90 think Rosario Dawson was in that. I think that was her first movie too. Oh yeah. It was a big controversy at the time when it came out and it's hard to watch.

[00:16:20] It's really hard to watch.

[00:16:22] Of course at the time I had just come out of film school and I was like,

[00:16:24] what's the most controversial movie?

[00:16:26] That's good. Yeah. It won the Teen Choice Award for Choice Drama and it won the Teen interesting ones are like trashiest and best kiss. It just was like people were talking about it. And people were calling it too so bad it's good.

[00:19:00] And almost.

[00:19:01] It is an IMDB typo, by the way.

[00:19:03] Good.

[00:19:04] All right.

[00:19:05] But I should have caught it.

[00:19:07] It's illogical. Yeah, that's hilarious. As far as teen movies go, there's a bunch that are right around this that all go in very interesting directions. But yeah, that came out in July. I believe it was July. It came out. And election came out later. That was this year too.

[00:20:20] Yeah, I Sleeze bag word. Okay, so let's just, can we just, so, Catherine's the quote unquote, you know, villain of this movie, but she isn't the damn villain of the movie. She's not the damn villain of the movie. Okay, like, you know, I mean, we walk down this path of like femme fatale, but if you

[00:21:40] go through the point by point of the things that happen in this movie, let's just run

[00:21:45] through what Sebastian does.

[00:21:47] Okay. of the Barney character in How I Met Your Mother? How I Met Your Mother, yes. Who now being as likable as real Patrick Harris. But wait, y'all, but wait. There's more. Let's give him a redemptive arc, shall we? Let's make him, and then, and then we'll make him a martyr. It's just so, it's so, I guess, typical of the time.

[00:23:06] Yeah, yeah.

[00:23:06] But this is what I really struggled

[00:23:08] with the whole movie. for how he is at the end where he's like, oh no, now I'm in love, but I don't wanna be, but I do. But he's, I have to keep reminding myself that for all his sophistication and wealth, he's 17. Yeah, I love that point because it is 100% not a coincidence that we do not see Sebastian or Catherine's parents

[00:24:21] throughout this entire movie.

[00:24:23] The only parent we see is Cecile's mother, right?

[00:24:26] Yeah, and she's-

[00:24:27] We see Cecile's mother. The connections are coming. The connections are coming. But she's basically like, how could you be so stupid? Oh, and that is her immediately how society responds. Every time some women's naked photos are on the internet, they're all like, she shouldn't have taken those pictures. It's always focused on her. And Sebastian is just getting off scot-free.

[00:25:43] And I feel like that's framing the wording is still being argued. But back in 1999, there was basically, I don't even think revenge porn was a term

[00:27:02] at that point in time.

[00:27:04] So it's just, it's off screen because that's the point is that there aren't any parents but it it's unreal. The

[00:28:21] only parents more negligent I swear are Dora the Explorer's parents. That kid gets into so many character in particular, it gives him a very interesting back story and it kind of messes with the canon of this movie and I won't spoil it just in case anybody out there is super interested in watching cruel intentions too but it was it was better than I thought and worse than I thought at the same time.

[00:29:40] It's an interesting take. I kind of meant to be. It's like a sex thriller story. So, you know, it's Racy and Raunchy, but with, you know, gowns

[00:31:02] and wigs and all that sort of 18th century French wealthy people stuff. cream, 97 maybe, or 90, I can't remember. But Reese Witherspoon turned down Nev Campbell's role, the role of Sidney Prescott in that movie. And I just, you know, I think that's such an interesting choice because Nev Campbell had a hard time moving on from that Sidney Prescott role. And Reese Witherspoon was kind of able to go in so many

[00:32:22] interesting directions with her choices.

[00:32:24] Like I think of that fear that this movie works so much. Yeah, they have really good chemistry together. I agree, he's kind of a weak point in the acting. He's kind of like a smarmy. Sort of two or three facial

[00:33:42] expressions. There's like, petulant sad and pet love that movie. That movie is absolutely fantastic. Stop. You've mentioned all my movies for another point. No, no, it's good. Yeah. It's good. It's like if anybody listening has not seen Pleasantville, you should go watch it immediately because that movie is brilliant. That might be my favorite

[00:35:00] Paul Walker movie also that he is in. But I think Reese I still have a hard time seeing that she fell for his shit that quickly and forgave him and I don't know like it just feels so rushed to me at this point Yeah, it was typical though of storytelling at the time right to be like oh and then they kissed and they were in love like it

[00:36:24] Yeah, it happens. It happens really fast

[00:37:26] their women don't do that. Well, especially as a teenager trying to differentiate between, you know, hormones and sexual attraction, as opposed to actual compatibility or real

[00:37:33] feelings or anything like that. Like, that's a lot to navigate and deal with. Yeah, it's

[00:37:40] like Romeo and Juliet, right? Like they were the sex scene, to be perfectly honest with you, which I immediately was like, are they really having sex? And they weren't, but I like- A lot of people had that question. Yeah, that was a big rumor at the time. Yeah, but he's so stilted when he's trying to pretend

[00:39:02] to be turning over a good leaf.

[00:39:06] There's, I'm just we talked about this in phases, the football player who's gay and he's like high fiving, like I had sex with this girl. Ha ha. It's just like, and then you have Reese Witherspoon

[00:40:21] who's just like prim and proper,

[00:40:23] except for in a normal way,

[00:40:24] as opposed to the way that Sarah Michelle.

[00:40:28] She's not a break. The most relatable she is to me is when she does end up falling for a Sebastian and sleeping with him because there, you know, I can't tell you how many people, I know, especially growing up when I did and where I did, where, you know, in Houston, which is

[00:41:42] still, you know, big city, it's not quite the bastard things that he did, except for those two pages where he goes, falling in love. Right. It just reinforces the story. She's told herself that maybe Sebastian deep down inside is this really wonderful person

[00:43:01] and he just needs the right person to love him.

[00:43:03] Yeah.

[00:43:04] And it's worth having.

[00:43:05] fixed him.

[00:43:06] Like that's where she gets you.

[00:43:07] She's like funny. So funny. Like like uber parody like of everything you would expect to see. But I mean, every single scene she's in is so freaking ridiculous. And so so wonderfully naive.

[00:44:22] And when, you know, Sarah Michelle I don't. The second time I watched it, it almost, I really feel like they were,

[00:45:40] like they give him a couple of really ridiculous scenes.

[00:45:43] Like when he's walking down the hallway,

[00:45:45] say in the black man's gone.

[00:45:47] Oh yeah. 90s who when my friend quit the job after a couple of years and this boss was what we called how let the moon crazy. She was unhinged. Well my friend quit the job and this woman was like I found you I discovered you I got you off the streets and I'm definitely not gonna name any names, but if I were to walk through my life and mention the people that would say that, the list would be far, far too long. Far, far too long. And that was written in 99 and I'm talking about 2023. So.

[00:48:20] Well, there are still people who to this day,

[00:48:22] like I have heard people say, well, I'm not racist,

[00:48:24] I voted for Barack Obama.

[00:48:26] And I'm like, you don, the KKK are racist. Like there, that's one reason why there are things called implicit biases or subconscious biases that you're not aware that you have them until you're open minded enough to actually

[00:49:40] sit there and reflect and critically think about it. the people who think the 90s are the way it should be and the 80s are the way it should be. It's just it's very again looking at it through perspective, you'd think 30 years later, 20 years later that those conversations wouldn't be happening anymore, at least be putting down, whereas now you have kind of a disconnect between, you know, multiple groups

[00:51:00] of people where you have some people saying that's completely wrong, that's not part of

[00:51:04] my life. And then other groups of people like movie that's put out today and I, you know, we talk about it being about the elite but the reality of it, you know, being a teacher, to say that I don't see adults that aren't there for their kids and by that, you know, message that, you know, kids that are left on their own volition sometimes will do incredibly stupid things. And kids realistic limits are especially dangerous, right? These kids have wealth and privilege and access and power

[00:53:40] and time and, you know, whole mansions to themselves to get

[00:53:45] into trouble and

[00:53:47] Look at the car he's driving.

[00:54:44] And it just sounded like, yes, becoming part one where she's like saying, call me to all of her friends. And I started cracking up.

[00:54:49] Oh, this isn't lovely. Like that was clearly probably not intentional at all.

[00:54:53] It's just the way Sarah Michelle Geller says, call me to someone. But I thought it was

[00:54:58] wonderful. I noticed that too. And I was like, there's, there's a little hint of Buffy in there.

[00:56:04] and meanness and some of it is for her own entertainment but it's all because she's just really fucking empty inside.

[00:56:08] And she makes me so sad

[00:56:11] because I see the performance on top,

[00:56:13] like you could see the sadness underneath the viciousness

[00:56:17] and it's like when I first watched the movie,

[00:56:22] I re-watch, I was like,

[00:56:23] Sarah Michelle Geller's performance

[00:56:25] is a little like artificial in arch.

[00:56:27] And is that just facial her her facials are just amazing. She does that in this movie see, you know, the facade that she has built through her whole life, which is unfortunate, because going back to my original point, you know, she has to be, she has the fake life of being a goody goody which she doesn't love like this is a girl who wants to live like a music. It's kind of like they talk about Ryan Felipe in this movie. Yeah, like, oh, he's a bad boy. He's naughty. And with her, it's like she doesn't deserve her financial success. She should be killed. She's a skank. Like the it's a different reaction. She has a quote to him. It rated that in that last conversation where she says

[01:00:22] to him like, because he's falling in love,

[01:00:24] your repuratation is going to be ruined.

[01:00:26] So his reputation is going to be ruined because he falls Wouldn't this movie have been on the internet? Wouldn't this movie have been interesting and he said she said perspective where we get, because this movie is really basically through Sebastian's perspective, but wouldn't it have been fun? We have the whole Little Red Riding Hood motif and I think one of the books that I read with my kids every year is the version of Little Red Riding Hood

[01:01:41] through the wolves perspective.

[01:01:43] Like wouldn't it have been fun to see this movie

[01:01:45] through Catherine's perspective as opposed of femme fatals. I first sort of became familiar with the concept when I was studying film noir in a film history class. And femme fatals were a huge part of the film noir tradition, right? There was all these beautiful women, you know, dams that would come into the gritty detective's office

[01:03:02] with some love related problem that they needed solved.

[01:03:05] And then it would come to mean like a deadly woman or a dangerous woman or a, sometimes it's like just a woman who's powerful and could kill you, but I think it should be stuck to like sort of them, not like Buffy the Vampire Slayer. She is not a femme fatale, right?

[01:04:20] She is perfectly capable of killing and is very powerful,

[01:04:23] but that's not her shtick, but like faith?

[01:04:27] Kind of a femme fatale. I think it's such an interesting narrative choice to take that scene out. They took it out because it didn't go with the dialogue. Him hitting her didn't go with the story and what he was saying about being in love now. It was like, they were like, that didn't work. So they just took it out. But it would have changed so much of how I felt about the end of the film.

[01:05:43] Like Sebastian would have never been the slightest bit redeemed for me

[01:05:47] if he had actually hit Catherine. there aren't any redeeming qualities. And that still boggles my mind as to what she does. Yeah, I don't agree. How in love? I mean, either both of them can be redeemed. Yeah. Because they're 16 or 17 years old. And this is like, I mean, consequences to what they're doing until you get killed. If you have sympathy for Sebastian's character,

[01:07:01] his, you know, how he was raised,

[01:07:04] the lack of parental involvement, I think there are some people, right? Like basically Sebastian. And she's not a super nice person, but really, but really, I mean, you know, she doesn't really, the only thing that happens to her is she loses people to Cecile. Yeah. And that's where it starts from, is a place of hurt that her ex-boyfriend

[01:08:20] has left her for Cecile.

[01:08:23] By the way, her ex't presented with in the movie. It's just- Like even her initial plot is to, first you want Sebastian to seduce Cecile. And when he says he won't do it, she's like, all right, I'll just, you know, fan the flames of what I see happening already with the music teacher. Like, yeah, it's manipulative and her intentions aren't great, but like, it's not that bad.

[01:09:43] Like, oh, you like your music teacher.

[01:09:46] Just go and go down that road.

[01:09:47] Yeah. It's very different. It's much more like overtly manipulative and sexual and just kind of icky. Like, and so when I, it's wild. It's losing it. You know, I was like, but when I watched Coolidge and

[01:11:03] S.O.E.L.E. but it's so uncomfortable. I don't know. I mean, before I had ever kissed a boy, I had a lot of nerves about it and questions and like, I didn't kiss a girlfriend, but we like talked about it and we all practice kissing our hands together. Your's one of them's Buffy the vampire Slayer. Yeah. I'm sorry. Now that would have moved me in a lot of different ways like back in the day. Like I mean, it's a very sexy scene.

[01:13:43] Right.

[01:13:44] She is just a she is a sexy person. They're like the sexual scenes is very different than it is as an adult because I still remember that line You know talking about how now I understand things that went over my head when they're talking about the bet and Kind of what seals his deal is her saying to Sebastian like I'll let you put it anywhere you want Oh, yeah, I remember back like middle school me being like where else where else would he put like what?

[01:16:03] since this movie, it makes it, it does make me wonder if it wasn't supposed to be as campy, but yeah.

[01:16:06] Yeah, it's like, oops.

[01:16:08] The definition of camp today is something

[01:16:11] so outrageously artificial, affected, inappropriate,

[01:16:15] or out of date as to be considered amusing.

[01:16:19] Susan Sontag defined camp as performing quote culture,

[01:16:24] unquote.

[01:16:25] Camp was originally,

[01:17:26] Right so that your brain is more awake you you're exposed to new ideas even if they're crazy ideas or exaggerated ideas

[01:17:29] They take your brain in new directions. They're good for you There are a good way to expose people to new information because the format wakes you up to receive the new information

[01:17:36] All right, that's my little film school bit

[01:17:39] Examples of other things that are considered camp share like all of her Bob Mackie outfits and stuff

[01:18:45] like if you are dating someone and they take you to their house and they don't have any books don't fuck them and I'm like Yeah, that's really good advice

[01:18:48] Some more camp mean girls clueless romean nichels high school reunion. I love romean michels. Yeah

[01:18:55] We should cover that on this podcast a simple favor

[01:18:59] Some unintentional camp or movies like glitter that Mariah Carey movie that everyone makes fun of so much

[01:20:02] their camp, the movie certainly was. I think the show is.

[01:20:04] I'd love to hear from our listeners on that topic.

[01:20:07] And maybe we'll talk about it next time

[01:20:09] on the season two wrap up.

[01:20:10] Yeah, it can be.

[01:20:12] Yeah.

[01:20:13] And it's best, and I think that's what makes those,

[01:20:16] those big moments, some of which we have not gotten to yet,

[01:20:20] but those big moments really stand out

[01:20:22] because it's camp, camp, camp.

[01:20:23] And then when it hits real, it hits.

[01:20:24] It hits.

[01:20:25] Yeah.

[01:20:26] Yeah.

[01:20:27] But like, yeah, there are try to do that because I was out of the house by the time the movie came out. One thing that we've kind of touched upon, and that's because as I was watching this movie, and then kind of reflecting on the era, and then I went back and I looked at some of the other movies that we've already talked about, actually we've nailed almost all of them player in the movie. She's she was and wasn't at the same time it was really fun again focused on the male character. But Jennifer outside of Pleasantville Mary Sue. Yeah it Mary Sue which we could get into the we should do Pleasantville at some point but the interesting part about her character in that movie is

[01:23:03] she was kind of the Catherine of the crew. You have, she's all that with Freddie Prinz, and Sarah Michelle Geller's actually in that. She's in a couple of scenes in the background, I think, just for him.

[01:24:21] There's just a series of movies that have connectivity

[01:24:25] with Freddie Prinz, Reese Wetherspoon,

[01:24:26] Sarah Michelle Geller, Mark Lucas, Matthew Lillard, that played all younger people and then weirdly played older people too at the same time. Because they were really the core of this young push in the late 90s and early 2000s. And not really many of them took. They all kind of branched off into their own things. Paul Walker ended up passing away and he's got his own issues that I don't want to get into.

[01:25:41] But they all have had careers.

[01:25:43] They're all around and they've all done things.

[01:25:45] And you've got a lot. that just that year she had Pleasantville, she had election, she had, which was fantastic by the way, again, and these roles that she had are so all over the place. And if you watch them all, to me, the far and away weakest of the bunch is cruel intentions.

[01:27:00] I think all of these other roles to me just had so much

[01:27:03] depth and was more written for her,

[01:27:05] where as this one had, isn't it? Yes, it is. I'll leave you alone now. Are you sure you're gonna be okay? I'm here if you need a friend.

[01:28:21] That's great.

[01:28:24] I know it sounds really trite, but...

[01:28:26] sometimes when I feel I don't know. Yeah. What a ridiculous thing to do.

[01:29:40] But you know if her father was gunning for that headmaster job,

[01:29:43] he was like, I know what would let me, you know, subscribe to a few of these magazines, like Seventeen Magazine, YM was another one, like, and there were letters to the editor where, you know, teenage girls, whoever could write in, and someone had written in using the term

[01:31:01] hand job, and like, 11 or 12 year old me sent me back to that time period. I was like, what a fun time. Oh my God. So the other thing, there's two other things actually,

[01:32:20] but Ryan Philippian, Sarah Michelle Geller,

[01:32:24] had nine pretty substantial scenes in this movie, when Catherine was sitting there with the hidden camera, which couldn't have been to hidden when Cecile does the weird split. Yeah. That was that scene. And I was just like, what is happening? But she's watching. She's watching it like we are. She's watching it like, what the what the

[01:33:41] heck is happening here? And then, and then we get binoculars. And I forget what we end up with this quote. He's falling in love with her clearly

[01:35:02] and she's starting to get jealous.

[01:35:04] But whatever happens, the quote that ends it

[01:35:06] is the only thing This is a real movie where they could have made this a real special movie as if Catherine and Annette would have had a lot more interaction. That's the only time they interact in the whole entire movie is that last scene in the bathroom where they're both pretending not to know who each other are. And I think that's the fun of that scene is that we all know that

[01:37:21] Annette knows. Right, but at this point, Catherine doesn't know

[01:37:23] that Annette knows her role in everything.

[01:37:26] And then,

[01:37:27] I doesn't wanna tell her, that makes sense

[01:37:29] because she's got this thing planned.

[01:37:31] The plan, but it's just, I think for Catherine,

[01:37:35] it comes naturally for her to pretend

[01:37:40] and keep this persona up.

[01:37:44] And of course, you know, she's about to go give Absolutely positively amazing. I'm not crazy with how they used it in the movie, but there's so many good songs in this. I'm not gonna talk about them all. I'll talk, I'm gonna talk about four or five. But Fat Boy Slim, who I absolutely love, has a song in here called Praise You. All I can tell you about this song. So this is playing when Catherine and Cecile are kissing.

[01:39:03] But this video, if you ever get a chance.

[01:39:06] Oh, I know the video.

[01:39:08] Yeah. He was still hosting. Oh, God. I think that was like peak. My middle school, like early high school was, would have been Carson daily, but it's just got the flashback. But praise you, I remember in particular because I had, you know, the Backstreet Boys were huge then and in sync and, you know, Britney Spears, Christina, you learn kind of dominated and

[01:40:21] every now and then you'd get like Foo Fighters in there or Fat Boy Slim. And then probably the last two I want to talk about is colorblind by Counting Crows. That song is when Sebastian and Annette are together. The fantastic scene filmed really well, I thought in the song. It's not the song they wanted,

[01:41:40] though. They wanted a song from Sm and they figured it'd be cheap. The problem with this song is that it's it's remixed from a Rolling Stones song and what happened was is I mean if you really want to dive down the funny part about this song is that Alan Klein famous from

[01:43:00] the Beatles who was a kind of a dick with all time, which is saying a lot. I know some people are like top 500. There's a lot of songs, y'all. In the video is absolutely, absolutely amazing. The song came out a long time before the movie, though, so this wasn't made just specifically

[01:44:20] for the movie.

[01:44:21] So yeah.

[01:44:22] So it's absolutely why I had. It's one of those cross generational songs. So thank you stones for creating the song to begin with. And thank you to the verb for remix it. And honestly, it couldn't have been a more perfect song to end the film with.

[01:45:40] I'm not gonna lie, I listened to it on the way to my office to

[01:45:43] podcast today.

[01:45:45] I'm excited seems appropriate.

[01:46:45] Yeah, a little crucifix, how he shows how that's where, you know, Catherine keeps her cocaine, which is brilliant. But I tried to emulate this in a journal so many times, like mixing drawings

[01:46:52] and things together with my words. And it's always like two pages. And then I am done with that.

[01:46:58] I'm not artistic enough. Well, the one thing, neck, like very innocent. Oh, and in that first scene, she has like a koala on her t-shirt, and she's like got her legs open showing her underpants. Like she's four. Yeah, like it's just so intentional.

[01:48:21] The choice is the same way.

[01:48:22] Well, she was 27 while filming.

[01:48:24] She was the oldest.

[01:48:25] She was the oldest one.

[01:48:27] Yeah. It seems just kind of thinking back. It seems like there was some dark and light play there with the darker characters and the lighter characters. But definitely. And you say pastel, there's kind of, it felt like the screening of the whole movie, there was a very pastel-y kind of look to it as well

[01:49:40] that kind of gave it kind of.

[01:49:41] It had a softness.

[01:49:42] Yeah.

[01:49:43] Which I actually liked.

[01:49:44] The decor in, just it's so apparent. And you know, the whole her hair being dark brown

[01:52:04] was there a day where Jim may have sunned his hair so that it was bleach blonde. Oh yeah. Oh yes. There was that day.

[01:52:09] Did I appreciate the way Joshua Jackson looked at this movie? Oh I sure did. Yes.

[01:52:13] Yeah. Yes. Yeah. I wish he was in it more too. I love Joshua Jackson. He's really good in almost

[01:52:19] everything that he's in and it's almost like, it's almost like, okay joke. Yeah. That's fantastic. A lot of people showed up. And apparently they had a good time. I think he had like sodas and snacks and stuff. And it was like a festive, you know, atmosphere. It's so funny. It's great. Me had a giant crush on Pacey Whitter. Yeah. So I might have to look into that.

[01:53:41] That's how it's finished.

[01:53:42] Yeah, there's definitely video footage of it.

[01:53:43] I saw it on YouTube or something.

[01:53:46] That's fantastic. 90s. She's in a lot of those movies that we were talking about earlier that you might be like corollate into that. Plus she has a great last name. Oh man. Oh Jim. Oh I've had a big crush on her when I was in the 90s. I used to tell my wife all the time if I married her she could just keep her last name. Pete. Yeah. There you

[01:55:02] know. And there aren't a lot Witherspoon had initially turned the role of a net down until they agreed to rewrite the character to have more of a backbone and more depth. And we mentioned this. And this is, you know, very on brand for dark, it's fucked up. It's a tiny independent film that had no budget, but it's so good. He said that he felt he had never seen anything like it that was so dark, fucked up high school, and it quickly led him to the thought of doing a new adaptation of L'Eis-olnes d'Ars-Rin, but set in high school.

[01:57:41] I have no idea what the correct way is to say that

[01:57:43] if anyone wants to record it and send it in to be on the show, like so many prestige shows are now. It was very much that back in the day. Yeah. Oh, I love this little bit of trivia. The production designer, John Gary Steele, had it so that all of the locations they were permitted to paint were painted in dark colors. He said, I see the movie as very much a tragedy.

[01:59:03] Since we were using a young cast, I didn't want it to feel like a young bright teen film because I think we hear in the United States are generally more conservative than others, but there are definitely certain countries. We sexualized the two women kissing. Yes. Right. It's acceptable because it turns men on and some men. There are two hot women. Yeah. Two young hot women kissing is fine. But no one talks about the sex scene between Joshua Jackson,

[02:00:24] even though it's implied,

[02:00:25] it's not a similar sort of beautiful, supportive friendship at least publicly. And I love seeing women who are friends and not competitive with each other in that way. Yeah. Well, especially that era of actress, like Shannen Doherty is another one that we can have a whole podcast on talking about how, you know, she's been treated and portrayed

[02:01:44] over the years. But I think one thing of people could maybe follow that pattern a little more. I agree. So this brings us to the moment in the episode where I ask the question, does it still slay? Which is really just how does it hold up after all these years?

[02:03:02] I'm going to jump in and say sort of old and me thought, man, I just want that Katherine version of the movie, like the per perspective. So maybe then we make it someday and not do cruel intentions too, or cruel intentions three, don't.

[02:04:20] Oh yeah, that's it.

[02:04:22] Katherine's cousin joins the fray.

[02:04:25] That's all I'm gonna say.

[02:04:26] It's like points two.

[02:04:27] Oh yeah. She fit right into that world. It was so good. How amazing would that be? It'd be amazing. I was saying this show taught me a couple of phrases that I was not aware of before I saw it. One of those is Tara Reed's character saying her, like calling her mom comments, psycho, babble, bullshit.

[02:05:43] Yeah, nice.

[02:05:45] I had never heard that before.

[02:05:47] I don't, I'm from it as a different character as a completely different character. That would have been interesting. So we'll see if this actually happens, you know, it's in the early stages, but prime video, they certainly have the power to make it happen as a streamer.

[02:07:04] They could, they could be as racy as they want to'm demon. Okay, I've had that thought before because my last name, there's nobody else that has my name. Like it is a very unique name. So I've thought about that a couple times when my name gets read out loud, with feedback, it's like I can appreciate, you know,

[02:08:20] keeping it to first names only.

[02:08:22] Well, plus it will help us not mess up.

[02:08:24] Yeah, that's true. One of the best movies of the late 90s loved a teen movie back then. I know we said we weren't doing last names. It's not really Mark Lucas. I apologize. Actually, Kara, can you take the next one? Because I want to read Karen's. Okay. Next is Becca. She said loved all four of these actors in this film.

[02:09:40] I'll be waiting to listen to the pod.

[02:09:43] So our final piece of feedback comes fromaire, especially when it comes to art. Art is the perfect tool to challenge and provoke the status quo. Yet, watching this in 2023, I'm left feeling icky about the clear homophobic and patriarchal

[02:11:05] lens here.

[02:11:06] Ryan Phillipe is so good looking in suave. I am a glutt for themes about on Wii, where love is both the impasse and the answer. But yeah, I am so conflicted about this movie. Thanks for introducing me to it and covering it, XXO. It is very conflicting. Yeah. It's hard to know how to feel about it. And I had to keep reminding myself it's camp.

[02:12:22] It's meant to be over the top.

[02:12:23] Because it was kind of hard to watch it at first until I got used to the tone.

[02:12:27] And then I was it. Yes. While you're on podcastica.com, check out some of our other shows. I'm sure if you are a lover of Buffy,

[02:13:43] that you would find something to love in Yellow Jackets, another story of 90s teens going through and Kristen worked on Ahsoka. And the best part about these podcasts, the podcasts, or the family atmosphere, how you guys work together a lot and become like family. And I think listening to Jonathan and James, who have known each other for a long time, and then Kristen get thrown into the mix, just listening to their casual conversations about

[02:15:03] what they've watched, what they've not watched.

[02:15:06] They can be condescending with each other much like Jason having a different kind of viewpoint on specifically Darryl, how that's changed in 13 years. But yeah, I... But the one thing I would just recommend is someone who's been around since 2010, but only vocal for the past year or so, is there is such an amazing backlog. If you really want depth of any of the shows that you watch, look and see if they've done it.

[02:16:22] They're just... It just adds a whole new layer of conversation. who I said this to if it was Jason or Jade or something the other day, but Everyone in that group and particularly the men are all men that I get the vibe like I can leave my drink with you Oh, yeah, you know like everyone is very like thoughtful respectful Open-minded. It's just it's a very nice space to have on the internet

[02:18:42] of our superlatives, favorite moments, least favorite moments, so make sure to tune in to that.

[02:18:46] Gosh, which means season three is coming.

[02:18:48] Yeah, I'm so excited.

[02:18:50] Yeah, I'm so excited.

[02:18:52] Although Spike's not in that a lot,

[02:18:53] which is the one thing I don't like about it,

[02:18:56] but I digress.

[02:18:57] Until next time, I'm Jim.

[02:19:00] I'm Kara, and I'm Penny.

[02:19:02] Keep playing.