33: “Choices” (BTVS S3E19)

[00:00:00] So you're the little girl that's been causing me all this trouble. She's pretty, Angel. Well, skinny. Still don't understand why it couldn't work out with you and my faith. I guess you kind of just have strange tastes in women.

[00:00:23] Yeah, well what can I say? I like them sane. Angel. Well, I wish you kids the best, I really do. But if you don't mind a bit of fatherly advice, I just don't see much of a future for you two.

[00:00:40] I don't sense a lasting relationship. And not just because I plan to kill the both of you, but you got a bumpy road ahead. I don't think we need to talk about this.

[00:00:51] You kids, you know, you don't like to think about the future. You don't like to make plans. But unless you want faith to gut your friend like a sea bass, you'll show a little respect for your elders.

[00:01:03] You're not my elder. I've got a lot of years on you. Yeah, and that's just one of the things you're gonna have to deal with. You're immortal. She's not. It's not easy. I married my Edna May in ought three and I was with her right until the end.

[00:01:18] Not a pretty picture. Wrinkled and senile and cursing me for my youth wasn't our happiest time. And let's forget the fact that any moment of true happiness will turn you evil. I mean, come on. What kind of a life can you offer her?

[00:01:40] I don't see a lot of Sunday picnics in the offing. See skulking in the shadows, hiding from the sun. She's a blossom of young girl and you want to keep her from the life she should have until it's faster by and by God.

[00:01:52] I think that's a little selfish. Is that what you came back from hell for? Is that your greater purpose? Make the trade. Hello everybody. Welcome to Still Slaying, a Buffyverse podcast. I'm Penny and I'm Cara.

[00:02:38] This episode we're going to be discussing season three episode 19 choices directed by James Contner and written by David Fury. The original air date for this one was May 4th of 1999. So this episode actually aired before the episode earshot which we covered in our last podcast episode.

[00:03:00] And it was originally slotted to air right after the Columbine shooting. So this is what Buffy actually came back on the air with. There were some alternative titles and other languages for this episode and they were the box of Gavrock in both French and German, nice and literal.

[00:03:19] Solutions in Russian and at the crosswords in our favorite Polish. At least that makes sense. The Polish ones, right? Like this one's not completely out of left field.

[00:03:33] That one I was like, oh okay but they were the only other country that had anything that sounded like at the crossroads. Everything else was variations of choices or decisions or something like that. And I kinda like it.

[00:03:48] So I want to thank our listeners for being patient with us. We had a series of delays. Oh yes. Kara and I are both okay. I know some people were worried, we're fine.

[00:03:58] There were technical problems, there were travel problems, there were personal life hiccups, there were health, there were trips, there was reunion, there were health issues.

[00:04:10] But we're back and we're excited to be back and we missed you guys and we are going to try to stay on a steady schedule for the next several months. And we'll keep communicating with you so you don't think we just disappeared into the ether.

[00:04:29] I am so excited to get back in a routine and I really just need the universe to cooperate with us. I feel like we're done, right? Like I'm gonna knock on wood as I say that. Yeah. But it's gonna be fine.

[00:04:42] And of course today my microphone was also not working. But if that's the only thing, if that's the only hiccup, I will take it. Yeah, at this point. We can work with that.

[00:04:53] We also wanted to take a moment to recognize the passing of Donald Sutherland on June 20th. He was 88 years old. He portrayed Buffy's first watcher, Merrick, and the Dark Ages watcher in the original Buffy the Vampire Slayer film, which was what, 94? I think 92. I think.

[00:05:14] Donald Sutherland is an epic talent. He had a huge career. It spanned more than 60 years with over 140 films including MASH, Don't Look Now, 1900, The Day of the Locust, Animal House, Invasion of the Body Snatchers,

[00:05:28] Ordinary People, Space Cowboys, The Italian Job, Cold Mountain, Pride and Prejudice, The Hunger Games franchise, and many more.

[00:05:37] For me, first of all, I saw Invasion of the Body Snatchers by myself in the middle of the night when I was way, way, way, way too young to watch it.

[00:05:45] I used to have this habit of when I couldn't sleep I would get up and go downstairs and watch TV in the middle of the night. And what's on in the middle of the night? At least in the 80s? Horror movies.

[00:05:56] So, yeah, Stephen King movies every now and then? Yeah. So I would, I had nightmares about Donald Sutherland in that movie for honestly still. I have never seen that movie.

[00:06:11] I don't remember a lot of it, but I remember the effect it had on me, which was that I couldn't sleep. Yeah, that sounds fair. Ordinary People is one of the most chilling and disturbing like non-science fiction, non-horror movies I've ever seen.

[00:06:31] There's no special effects. There's no aliens. There's no guns. It's just about ordinary people, but the Mary Tyler Moore character is freaking monster. I haven't seen that either. It's subtle. Now I feel like I need to watch these. It's a really extraordinary movie.

[00:06:56] I think I associate him most with Mash. Of course, I was not around when Mash was airing primarily, but I did watch reruns. Oh, he wasn't in the show? And Animal House. Was he in the show? I think he was just in the movie.

[00:07:08] Was he not? Was in the movie? Maybe I'm thinking of my dad watching the movie over and over again. It's possible. But I was young, but I mainly associated him with the pot smoking professor in Animal House.

[00:07:22] And I love him. And obviously his son, Kiefer Sutherland, is in my favorite movie of all time, which is Stand By Me. Oh, I thought you were going to say Lost Boys, but also a valid choice. Oh, also Love Lost Boys.

[00:07:35] Yeah, I had a weird... Well, it makes sense now. I had a crush on Kiefer Sutherland, and he was not playing great people in the movies that I was watching. Well, but he was really sexy. Especially Stand By Me. Yeah.

[00:07:49] But then President Snow, more modern day in The Hunger Games franchise. But yeah, he was a brilliant, brilliant actor. That was one of those that I felt when I saw that he had passed. Yeah. That's part of our Buffyverse. Yeah. On to some happier news.

[00:08:13] Let's take a journey back to the spring of 99 and see what was going on. I love this. It's like peak childhood. We were talking about this before we started recording. This is like peak childhood memories for me.

[00:08:29] And the number one song at the time was Live in Levita Loka by Ricky Martin. Such a fun song. I remember my little brother thinking it was... What is it? The actual lyrics are she'll push and pull you down, and my little brother who is...

[00:08:47] I think he was in second grade at the time would sing shampoo shampoo you down over and over again. So cute. So it was pretty adorable. That's what I associate with that song. And the wax pouring on his skin in the music video.

[00:09:00] I remember being like, huh, that's interesting. It came out before he came out of the closet. So this was when he was still fronting as a straight man. But I think a lot of people were like, but is he though? Questioning. Yeah. Oh, the 90s.

[00:09:19] And then the number one song in the UK was Swear it Again by Westlife. I heard a lot of Westlife in Scotland actually. It was kind of interesting. The best selling books at the time on the New York Times bestseller list for fiction.

[00:09:34] It was The Girl Who Loved Tom Gordon by Stephen King. And Making a Comeback for Nonfiction is The Greatest Generation by Tom Brokaw. We have not seen the end of that book dominating the bestseller list.

[00:09:49] And then in the US box office, the number one movie at the time was The Matrix followed by Saving Private Ryan, The Prince of Egypt and Patch Adams. Those are not. Yeah. All right.

[00:10:07] I mean, The Matrix was definitely an iconic late 90s movie and it still holds up and it's definitely entered the culture. Prince of Egypt. I've still never seen. Patch Adams was bad. Like bad. Yeah, I remember that movie and not enjoying it.

[00:10:23] I didn't realize the chokehold that The Prince of Egypt kind of had at the box office. I think it was maybe the only kid movie that was out. And so everybody was like, all right, I guess we're saying that would make sense.

[00:10:35] I can't believe how well saving private Ryan did for so long because it's such a painful movie to watch. Yeah. Oh gosh, it is on May 4th 1999, the movie The Mummy premiered in US theaters. Oh, it's now known. That was just my note.

[00:10:52] Causing many instances of bi panic or awakening. Ha ha. Yeah. I think that's true. That's a meme at this point. Anyone who hadn't already been questioning their sexuality after seeing Faith on Buffy probably had some confusing feelings about Rachel Weiss or Brennan Frazier or both of them. Yeah.

[00:11:17] They were some very attractive people in that movie. Although I remember that and I remember the scene of the bugs that crawled inside your skin too. Yeah, I'd rather not think about that. Good times watching that movie. Yeah, no.

[00:11:29] And on a more serious note also happening over the evening and late into May 3rd of 1999 there was a tornado outbreak of more than 70 tornadoes that hit areas of Northern Texas, South Central Kansas and Eastern Oklahoma in the morning and into the early afternoon as well.

[00:11:54] That outbreak remains the largest ever recorded in Oklahoma killing 40 people and injuring 675 with an estimated $1.2 billion in damage. Wow. I remember that actually. That was all over the news. It would be. That's intense. Just, yeah. It was awful. This is kind of a nice one.

[00:12:19] On May 4th, 1999 the U.S. unveiled the design for the Sacajawea Dollar Coin which would be officially introduced at the start of the new millennium. I also want to point out that around this time everybody was talking about the millennium. The new millennium. Oh, the millennium. Why 2K?

[00:12:37] The millennium. So, yeah. Yeah. Oh gosh. Yeah, that's hard to ever forget. The Bakshi Boys were about to release their album, Millennium. I remember going to the store and buying that. It's in the middle of May.

[00:12:51] I can't remember exactly when but I'm sure we'll talk about that as it gets closer. And then during the week of May 1st, 1999, I will point out May 1st was a Sacajawea dollar.

[00:13:04] I will point out May 1st was a Saturday but I had to include it because on May 1st the animated series SpongeBob SquarePants created by Steven Hilenburg debuted on Nickelodeon. And that, I feel like, is something that's with my generation especially. Yeah, sort of. It defines a generation.

[00:13:23] Big deal. Yeah. On May 2nd, quarterback John L. Way who led the Denver Broncos to five Super Bowl appearances with two victories announces his retirement from the NFL.

[00:13:38] And also on May 2nd, Maria Moscoso I think is how you pronounce it hopefully becomes the first woman to be elected president of Panama. And on May 3rd, must be nice. No women presidents for us here in the U.S.

[00:13:54] On May 3rd, 1999, the Dow Jones industrial average closes above 11,000 for the first time in its history at 11,014.7. What is it now? I'm going to look right now. Yeah. See where we are. Oh wow. 39,000. It's over 39,000 right now. That's unreal. Dang. Crazy. I wonder how the debate affected it.

[00:14:31] Anyway, we won't talk about that. On May 7th, 1999, this is during the Kosovo war in the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, three Chinese citizens are killed and 20 are wounded when a NATO aircraft bombs the Chinese embassy in Belgrade. That's not good.

[00:14:52] Also on May 7th, Pope John Paul II travels to Romania becoming the first pope to visit a predominantly Eastern Orthodox country since the great schism in 1054. That's crazy. That gave me history class flashbacks.

[00:15:10] And finally on May 8th of 1999, Nancy Mace becomes the first female cadet to graduate from the Citadel Military College in South Carolina. That's a really weak year. Yeah. I guess it's time to get into our main discussion of the episode choices.

[00:15:33] I have watched this episode so many times. One of the ones that I will watch even when I'm watching Buffy out of order because it's got so many fantastic little moments and some of the best one-liners in Buffy.

[00:15:53] And I have a couple of the one-liners that I pulled out because I think they're so fun. I'm just going to pull them out of context like... And then... Hey, hope there it is! Ah! Damn. Huh. Made him an offer to survive.

[00:16:22] You are one heck of a girl. You know that? He's so tickled. That's so funny. What are you the narrator kills me? And I want to start trying to use that in life because that's a really fantastic and funny, funny line.

[00:16:40] Oh my gosh. I think... I'm sure you pulled this but I think this episode has my absolute favorite principal Snyder line in the series. Oh wait, I bet I know what it is. Where is it? Here it is. Snyder, you alive in there?

[00:17:01] You. All of you. Why couldn't you be dealing drugs like normal people? Yep, yep. Absolutely. It's so spot on. Just like... Oh my God. That little man. Snyder. So special. Can't wait to see what happens to him. And Buffy's little... Oh God. Yeah I wonder what happens.

[00:17:26] And Buffy's excited like that's where they make jouses about Oxford is adorable. It's such a good episode and I feel like it's one that is not actually that popular. Like I don't hear about it as much as some of the other episodes but it's so compelling.

[00:17:46] Oh, it has everything. It has... Everybody does. It has a great fight scene with Buffy and Angel in that conference room. It's got really fun like interchange among the Scoobies. It's got some great like shut up Wesley moments. What does Buffy say to him?

[00:18:04] Get on the train or get off the tracks which is hilarious because it's like we're going to run you over with the train. Snyder has one of the best lines in this episode I think where one of the few times that I agree with him wholeheartedly

[00:18:17] where they're debating after Willow is kidnapped or you know taken hostage essentially and Zander's like I need a volunteer to hit Wesley. Yeah when Wesley is trying to tell them that they can't afford to exchange the box for Willow and I was like you tell him Zander.

[00:18:34] And I'm sure there were many people who would have been really well like happy to volunteer for that job. And then Oz has that amazing moment where he like throws the urn and he just stands there like he doesn't even need words to be cool.

[00:18:49] Like he's just nope succinct and he gets his point across and he looks really badass doing it like go Oz. That's one of my favorite parts I think and it's you know he's known for being kind of stoic

[00:19:07] and of few words and you've got Buffy and Willow and Zander and Wesley all arguing and all he does he's sitting in that chair gets up silently breaks it and sits back down and Wesley doesn't say another word. That settles it. Yeah it's awesome.

[00:19:29] It's a really great moment. I don't know where we should start but let's start with maybe the easiest thing to talk about. Buffy gets into Northwestern and her mother is over the moon about it right? Understandably so.

[00:19:48] First of all Northwestern is an excellent school and good for Buffy for getting in there and the idea that she might be able to leave Sunnydale and have a normal life is so enticing.

[00:19:59] You know when her mother is talking about it Buffy's like mom you know I can't think about that right now. But then she brings it up amazingly with Wesley before she even tells Giles right? She's like arguing with Wesley about it. Yeah but there's a spy out.

[00:20:17] Yeah I'm also a person. You can't just define me by my slayerness that's something isn't. Poor Buffy right? She's got this life that's preset for her and she doesn't have the options that her friends and other people have but this is this moment. She could go to Illinois.

[00:20:41] She could have a different life and you know Wesley forbids it with his like stupid crossed fingers motion and everything. Yeah what was that? She has a point. Like I guess that was his like an ex gesture or something but I love Giles.

[00:20:58] He's like oh yes that should settle it. Like good yeah all right Wesley. Yeah but have you not met Buffy yet?

[00:21:04] Right and that would be my personality instinctively is if you tell me not to do something or that I can't do something now I want to do it.

[00:21:18] Like I don't know where he gets off and he really doesn't I mean I guess he may have that authority over her somewhat or the council would think they have that authority over her but it's at the same time it's kind of sad seeing Buffy

[00:21:36] start to toy with the idea of going off to college and living a normal life and being independent and you know still

[00:21:47] being able to do her slayer duties in Illinois when she's like you know I bet they still have monsters and demons in Illinois that I could take care of but reality kind of starts to set in this episode I feel like

[00:22:01] and it's especially more painful seeing how excited and proud Joyce and Giles are. Yeah just like oh Buffy that's just a rough I position to be in at the right age of 18.

[00:22:18] You know the council has had centuries of being able to boss the slayers around partially because you know slayers get called when they're 15

[00:22:28] and they don't have a lot of power in the world and so a bunch of men tell them what to do that's just like yeah that's society

[00:22:35] and Buffy is this modern day slayer who was raised with the ideas of independence and having a life and having a career right like even though she's not necessarily like a gung-ho academic oriented career oriented person at 18

[00:22:56] those ideas are the background that she grew up against right all her friends are going to college except well Xander and of course she would think about it and fantasize about it a little bit and it's kind of heartbreaking at the end of the episode

[00:23:16] when she's like I guess I'm a Sunnydale girl and she's come to terms with it but there is a big part of me that

[00:23:27] really really wanted her to be able to go to Northwestern right well and how far away I know how I felt oh gosh yeah well it's like how far away is Northwestern from what Cleveland's another hell mouth like within 500 miles maybe like she still occasionally go help out

[00:23:46] like that could be a weekend thing but for show purposes I understanding and to keep her there but I also think this is one of those things that actually makes sense within the plot I understand her wanting to or understanding eventually needing to stay in Sunnydale

[00:24:06] especially with Joyce there I just don't know how she could leave Joyce in a hell mouth and feel completely comfortable with that yeah

[00:24:18] that's just rough but yeah I don't know if she would have actually gone if she was able to but being told that she shouldn't even consider it is really unfair the amount of times I was like shut up Wesley like in this episode was a little absurd

[00:24:38] I was rewatching it this morning on my iPad while I was trying to motivate myself to get out of bed and what woke me up was the number of times I was yelling at my screen at Wesley

[00:24:53] like yeah this guy was like ridiculous he's the worst you know I do have all the college ness in this episode that's a very intellectual word

[00:25:09] but willow getting into Oxford is fantastic courty getting into a number of respectable schools it's just you know it's nice watching them kind of grow up in a sense and it's the perfect time to mention what colleges they're going into as we're about to transition

[00:25:31] to the next episode is prom we've got graduation coming up and thinking about the future in this show in particular just hits a bit different yeah and courty has an important line that is it's mean it's really really mean

[00:25:49] but it it encapsulates the dilemma that buffy faces so well when she says I'm sorry buffy this conversation is reserved for people who actually have a future and yeah it's it's one of the meanest things courty has ever said to anyone

[00:26:11] because it's it's kind of buffy's core trauma is that she's probably gonna die young and not have a future but it's also a great reminder to the audience of buffy's core trauma and why this fantasy of going away to college is so compelling

[00:26:31] everything in life is foreign territory carowak he's my teacher the open road my school making the open dumpster your cafeteria go ahead and mock me I think she just did we bohemian anti-establishment types have always been persecuted well sure you're all so weird

[00:26:49] I think it's neat you doing the backpack trail makes happy wanderer thing I'm aware it scores kind of high in the hokie meter but I think it'll be good for me help me to find myself and help us to lose you

[00:27:01] Xander all of a sudden being into Jack carowack and on the road what not is so on point yes I was like you pretentious little shit like of course he's like we bohemian anti-establishment types I was like shut up Xander

[00:27:22] like you're not bohemian I was like okay sweetie that's precious but like good for him if he actually read carowack all right but he's just I actually never read carowack I did see the somewhat recent movie of that book that had Kristen steward in it and it was not great

[00:27:40] no my I had a English professor in college that was utterly obsessed with Jack carowack and he would be exactly how you would picture him like it was one of the most difficult classes I think I've ever sat through and all the you know the beatnik culture that surrounds that too

[00:28:07] he he walked in every day like he was about to sit down and do some slam poetry and play the bongos it was but it's so fitting with Xander I love the writers of this show they're so smart and they know exactly who each of these characters are and it just makes me so happy but he is also really mean to Kordi in this episode

[00:28:36] it pisses me off and I'm just like you betrayed her you broke her trust you like like she's mean like this because of I mean she's always been mean but like she's hard new level of mean because she's really hurt yes which is not an excuse for how she's you know it's never an excuse but it's her being mean to Xander I find completely

[00:29:01] forgetable when she turns around and is mean to Buffy with a whole people who actually have a future comment I can't forgive it no it's like too far too far is not the one that cheated on her yeah like and and you know willow with the voice of wisdom being like you know she's just being

[00:29:50] like she's still going to be a little hurt and he will it's also very Xander in line with his character but I mean it seems to me that he never really loved Cordelia or cared about Cordelia in any kind of real way that whole relationship was just for him like look at me I get to kiss this girl

[00:30:20] this pretty girl and and I finally got a girlfriend and any woman in that position probably would have suited him yeah and Cordelia meanwhile was having legitimate feelings and and his anger at her being angry at him is sort of the epitome of toxic masculinity where he's like trying to turn himself into the victim

[00:30:47] for for the reaction to his bad behavior oh yeah it's like no you have it coming you should just lie down and let Cordelia walk on you that's how I was like you're a take it sit like take it Xander you deserve all of this

[00:31:01] and you know Cordy grew a lot from that relationship like the character growth that we see in her and the character development that we saw in her while she was with Xander was a pretty big deal and it's significant and the hurt you know she doesn't show that hurt to Xander necessarily

[00:31:24] you know we see her crying in her room upset in the hospital room and he just doesn't quite have the wherewithal to understand that that's a front that she's putting on like she's clearly not okay she's still incredibly hurt from what he did

[00:31:43] and I just I kind of want to shake him a little bit but he is a 18 year old boy yeah so I'm like and she doesn't seem to have any friends know that she can really talk to and confide in right we know like the other friends that she has are these

[00:32:01] like mean girls who care about you know clothes and status and popularity surface and she's she's not seeing any other guys really like you know there's been scenes where she's like flirting with someone or whatever but it's clear she doesn't have a boyfriend

[00:32:17] she's just I think marking time till she gets the you know what out of high school and can just start with a clean slate somewhere and then we get this revelation in this episode at the end that she is working retail

[00:32:37] and we don't know why but she's not happy about it and she is acting a little weird about this dress when we know she has tons and tons of fashionable clothes so you know what's going on with her there's there's a deep sadness there

[00:32:56] and all of this anger and venom is like you said it's just a front it's armor you know to try to help her just get through high school when I know we've talked about it before but the the realness and the vulnerability that charisma

[00:33:13] carpenter brings to the character of Cordelia can't really be overstated because she is so much more than just your regular mean girl character and we're about to you know learn even more about her and get even deeper into what she's struggling with

[00:33:32] and I just think charisma plays that so beautifully that makes me even angrier thinking about what she dealt with behind the scenes but that's another topic

[00:33:44] and you know it's not a secret I don't know if it counts as a spoiler but you know she goes on to be on the angel spin off and all of this background is makes her arc on angel so interesting and fun to watch and I'm really looking forward to it

[00:34:05] I can't wait we're so close now we are so soon so the college thing you know willow can go to any college in the world practically and then she's got it's funny that we never see willows parents during this whole college conversation

[00:34:26] we know that both her parents are academics the I like to imagine the scene at home when she's like I'm gonna go to UC Sunnydale and her you know PhD parents are like but Yale yeah yeah Oxford Oxford like Harvard like Oxford Oxford

[00:34:50] having the opportunity to go to Oxford which obviously is not cheap I you know but at the same time it's just like come on willow that's where I have to kind of engage in a little suspension of disbelief that willow stays in Sunnydale and goes to UC Sunnydale because

[00:35:08] yeah it's a little just thinking about the library she missed out on hurts a little yeah it's true willow and the connections that she would have made and the people she would have met and I'm sure at Oxford there would have been plenty of ways for her to grow her dark arts

[00:35:31] oh yeah other you know witchy type people I mean I'm I'm glad she's going to UC Sunnydale with Buffy and she makes a really good point like she's already figured out what she wants to do with her life and it's magic and fighting evil and Sunnydale is kind of like the Oxford of evil fighting

[00:35:49] that's true and she has an Oxford grad right there to teach her and guide her to send her to that too yeah I don't know if I would have made a decision like that my entire high school experience was geared toward getting out of New Hampshire I was like I have to leave this place

[00:36:12] forever I just oh gosh thinking back on it now I just wanted to go somewhere that would give me the best chance to get a decent scholarship and continue to allow me a good chance to be in the running for a good scholarship getting into law school and if I could go back in time I think I would want to get out of Texas

[00:36:40] and go somewhere else and I fantasized about it like the College of William and Mary was kind of my number one on the list and it's in Williamsburg yeah yeah and I visited I loved it and I ended up getting in but it was just out of state private tuition was outrageous and I still think about that like I was thinking about that the other day I was like I wonder what would have happened

[00:37:10] if I had made it work yeah but that's about that a lot with the law schools I got into that I didn't go to especially UCLA I think about like how my life would have been different man I had moved to California instead of New York City.

[00:37:25] That would be interesting I wish you know and that whole well this we don't need to talk about string theory but the idea that there is a you that made that choice and went to UCLA law and there's a parallel universe where that you know decision is happening.

[00:37:44] I love that yeah and that me probably has skin cancer by now. That's funny. I love that that's the first thing that pops out but yeah that'd be a lot worse on exposure.

[00:38:02] But I do get chills kind of rewatching this episode whenever willow says you know I could be a badass wicca just like whoo spoiler alert. Yeah. I also have borrowed many times from the dialogue between the two of us which is the boss of me.

[00:38:30] I have had to say that a bunch of times in my life and I don't know there was there was a long period of time when I aspired kind of to be willow and I really identified with willow and and I don't as much anymore but back then I sure did like I was like yeah that's who I want to be I want to

[00:38:55] I wish I was a witch and you know fight evil with my mind and I think that's where I'm at almost right now like rewatching when I was younger I was obsessed with Buffy and Buffy's character especially you know as a fifth grade girl in the 90s.

[00:39:15] Yeah Buffy was just I guess kind of aspirational in terms of her confidence her fashion and things like that she was just cool and faith.

[00:39:28] Oh god I love faith but now rewatching it I'm really really enjoying willow storyline and kind of her journey and in this episode like we see her strength and bravery really starting to shine through.

[00:39:45] She's captured and you know is trying to escape and instead ends up going towards the books of ascension and faith catches her she stands up to her and pushes her buttons and it's just like I'm not afraid of you even after faith calls off and hits her in the face which must have hurt incredibly bad.

[00:40:09] Yeah being punched in the face by a slayer. It's just not good and she stands up to her and she knows what to say to hurt faith and faith even acknowledges it as soon as she hits her she's like you hurt me I hurt you.

[00:40:25] And I just she calls her what a big selfish worthless waste. Yeah it's like oh yeah on the nose. She hit a nerve and it was you know that you could see in faith space when it registers. She's like good job willow call her ass out.

[00:40:48] Yeah it's it's pretty great scene because you know willow had issues with faith pretty much from the beginning and this is her chance to tell her off and it's like this culmination of all of the bad assness that willow has been accumulating over the course of the season.

[00:41:09] I love the payoff with the pencil. Oh yeah. She floats the pencil to kill the vampire it's like yeah we all kind of knew that was coming. So good.

[00:41:16] When she's floating the pencil in the previous episode but then when she uses it in this way it's like yes. It's perfect.

[00:41:23] So exciting and I and at the end when she has those pages from the books of ascension that she had been hiding on the door that moment and she hands them to Giles and Giles is like a little kid at Christmas. It's so good. Such a great scene.

[00:41:40] You should get kidnapped more often and Will is like no thank you. Yeah it's like no thanks I'm good but that Giles is fantastic. Like Anthony Stewart had because you see his face like he's trying not to show how disappointed he is.

[00:41:56] So like thinking she didn't get much information and then she shows them. She's like I guess you'll just have to see what you can make of it and he looks thrilled and in awe all at the same time. She's like oh good job Willow so suave adorable.

[00:42:18] I love it. So Buffy this episode she has a couple of different storylines going on right.

[00:42:26] There's the I would like to be a person and not just a slayer storyline that is sort of brought to life through the college question and then there's also the are she an angel in a rut conversation which I have of course.

[00:42:43] What did you do for taking me? It's just you get the feeling that we're kind of in a rut. A rut? Never take me any place new. What about that fire demon nest in the cave by the beach? I thought that was a nice change of pace.

[00:43:07] So this is our future and this is how we're going to spend our nights when I'm 50 and you're the same age you are now. Let's just get you to 50. I'm not making that plan.

[00:43:23] I mean she's right that he's kind of a static person right like his life has changed dramatically at a couple of different points right he became a vampire big change.

[00:43:36] He got his soul back big change and then he fell in love with Buffy big change but like most of the time angel is pretty content to just status quo it. He's like alright I'm here and I'm just going to keep doing what I'm doing.

[00:43:51] And because vampires by their nature don't age and don't grow and don't change and Buffy quite rightly pointed out by the mayor is a human a young human who has her whole life ahead of her hopefully. Yeah.

[00:44:08] And is going to keep changing and this problem of theirs is not going to go away. Yeah.

[00:44:18] And you know hearing the message from the mayor is not they're not going to want to absorb it but in that final scene where they're like cuddling against a gravestone in a way that would only happen on Buffy the vampire slayer.

[00:44:31] And and she's she's sort of talking to him about college and how great it will be the look on both their faces is very much like we both know that this is a thing we're going to have to deal with sooner or later and just are going to pretend it's not real right now.

[00:44:46] Well it reminds me of that moment. Spike speech in Lovers Walk. Oh yeah.

[00:44:53] Where it's one of those where it's just like you don't really want it to be true but he's right. Same thing with Mayor Wilkins and he talks about what marrying his end of May and 1903 and how she was you know cursing him for his youth and he was with her till the bitter end.

[00:45:14] And I think it it hurts a little bit more because he is speaking from experience. And he's so he's so right.

[00:45:24] It's just undeniable wants to hear that message from him but and then later Buffy is like he doesn't even know what a lasting relationship is and I'm like I mean he stayed with Edna May.

[00:45:34] Yeah. Like I think till the end does Buffy like and honestly one thing he does know I could see him the way he is with faith in his relationship with faith we have no reason to think that his

[00:45:49] relationship with his wife was you know some terrible one. He stayed with her. I feel like he would be you know unfortunately a pretty reasonable voice to listen to about that situation as much as they don't want it to be true.

[00:46:09] There's truth to it that is kind of undeniable at this point and you think about it Buffy is fantasizing about going off to college and having a normal life

[00:46:21] and being part of that normal life you would think would be going out with your boyfriend in the daytime or you know doing something that involves not fighting evil side by side and actually relaxing. And not being afraid of him turning evil all the time.

[00:46:38] They can't they really can't have sex. They can't risk that and so the that's always hanging over them. They're really intimate in the way that they want. So they would essentially both be kind of tortured. Their relationship can never move beyond where it is.

[00:46:56] They can't they can't get married. They can't have kids. They can't you know start a new life together in some other city like they'll always be fighting and they fight great together. I mean the conference room action scene really showed how well Buffy and Angel

[00:47:13] they are in sync. Fight together like that was great. Yeah and they were in their opening scene they were fighting together and they were doing a great job of it but Buffy needs more than a warrior in her life.

[00:47:29] And Angel honestly needs to find a way to redeem himself that isn't just like piggybacking on Buffy's mission. Yeah yeah and the mayor was right about that too is this what you came back from hell for like

[00:47:43] yeah to just be Buffy's like nighttime arm candy. I don't think so. And I think what really really sets it really is and what really hits Angel.

[00:47:54] I feel like knowing his you know knowing what we know about his character now and in the future is when he calls Angel selfish and that is something that Angel seems to internalize and be unable to get away from.

[00:48:09] You know what I love too is that there's never a talk about Buffy becoming a vampire so she can stay with Angel forever. Right yeah that's not an option. That does not happen in this universe and I love that. Vampire Diaries. Twilight. Just like good lord.

[00:48:31] Like that that is why Buffy is the superior vampire show anyway but it's just it's so much more than that. Something that is dealt with I think in a really smart way by the writers it doesn't come out of nowhere.

[00:48:47] This has been something that's been a concern and expressed pretty much since the beginning of their relationship even more so after Angelus comes back. So I like the way that they handle it.

[00:49:01] I like that seemingly it's two villains that kind of give them their reality checks the most first with Spike and then the mayor because you know if you've got these two people who are antagonists so far that are pointing out these truths it's kind of a little bit more impactful.

[00:49:23] Yeah. Like it's a little harsh.

[00:49:27] That but their ulterior motive is not your best interest but there's truth and it's unavoidable and that graveyard scene is so I mean the metaphor of it being in a graveyard and and you know this surrounded by death while they're talking about mundane things like dorms and walking distance and stuff like that.

[00:49:54] It's brilliant. It's really one of the more painful like quietly painful moments of the show because it's for me it's like oh they both know. Yeah they both know and they're not saying it and that it's just time until they have to say it.

[00:50:11] Well and without spoiling too much although I think it's kind of clear we all know that there's a spin off episode show with Angel. I remember watching this in real time in fifth grade and the next episode shocked me.

[00:50:29] And now looking back I was like oh you sweet summer child like and I was a kid obviously but I was like oh my gosh. Yeah they're meant to be.

[00:50:38] Yeah and now it's just like flags everywhere and when the mayor says to Angel you know like coming back and being with Buffy like is that what you came back from hell for. Is that your greater purpose and that setting up the spin off.

[00:50:55] It just works so well and it makes so much sense. Like a lot of times in TV shows I feel like the spin offs you know there's fan demand or they want to see how well another show can do and bring in more viewers.

[00:51:14] And the spin off premises don't always make a lot of sense and this one does to me I feel like it's one of the better justifications for a spin off.

[00:51:25] Right you know I always like to talk about fashion and most of the fashion in this episode is unremarkable.

[00:51:35] And I'd like to see that Buffy is wearing pants and a leather jacket when she goes on the heist mission because at least it's practical although her high heel boots were not.

[00:51:45] But who wears a maxi velvet dress to any occasion when you're going to have to climb a ladder. I know is willow wearing it doesn't make any sense.

[00:52:01] It was like you are going to fall I guess the dress from her like witchy aesthetic ladies it's perfect for that but for the heist what are you wearing. You can't climb a ladder in a long dress. No like it made me nervous.

[00:52:17] That's yeah excellent trip on the hem and like hit your face like oh my God. This is not practical in any way guys even though it is spot on for her character and the time period. Yeah she looked great in it she has an amazing figure.

[00:52:35] And whatever leather jacket Faith was wearing was like too big for her. I was like what's that all about why is she wearing this little odd bulky oversized that's not very faith. I thought that was weird.

[00:52:51] And you'd think that would kind of hinder your ability to move and fight and whatnot. Yeah it just didn't make complete sense to me.

[00:53:01] Faith had so many great moments in this episode though this was really a faith showcase right like getting the knife as a present and then how she like admires the knife and like practically kisses it.

[00:53:14] She's like so into it and when she you know goes to the airport and shoots that guy with that long it's the same long bow that she stole. Yes in bad girls.

[00:53:24] Yeah in bad girls and then she takes the knife out and that vampire guy is like that's not going to cut through steel. It'll cut through bone.

[00:53:36] Yeah like when she's just so like casually badass that if she weren't being evil I'd be cheering for her because it's right. She's so cool. She's just so cool. It's true and that knife to be fair is a very pretty knife. Like it's gorgeous.

[00:53:54] It's really intricate like so I understand her admiring it but Elijah douche coup is just so good at being sinister and sexy at the same time. Yeah and then how damn it woman.

[00:54:07] A childlike vulnerability pop out once in a while in the middle of it like when she throws the knife and then they have to leave without retrieving it like the look on her face it's like somebody kicked her puppy. I know. Oh my God. It's brilliant.

[00:54:24] There's a that you know when the when they go and we find out what is actually in this box and it's what 50 billion like spider monsters essentially I cannot think of many things that would be more horrifying to me just thinking about the sheer number of them in there and that that bit

[00:54:49] in the way that they kill by face hugging. Yes that acting by the guy that plays the police officer security guard or whoever when the spiders on his face.

[00:55:01] I saw I think I saw it was some YouTube commentary on the episode where the guy compared it to Leslie Nielsen and naked gun when he gets a towel thrown on his face and he essentially is acting you know this towel is like.

[00:55:19] Impossible to remove from his face and there's a side by side of the two. Oh I got to look that up. It's hilarious. I'll see if I can find it and we can put it in the show notes because it was perfect. The comparison was perfect.

[00:55:36] I was like this did feel a little naked gun because when you think about the fact that what he is wrestling with is probably some sort of felt proper something. Yeah it looked like it was made out of like stretched out tootsie rolls or something.

[00:55:50] Yeah and I love that the mayor I mean the CG is not great but that the mayor you know can just like shake off what the spider thing did to his face and then he's like raise your hand if you're in vulnerable. He's enjoying himself so much.

[00:56:07] He loves the clandestine meeting in the cafeteria. I feel like we should all be in tritcodes. All right bud calm down. And then you know of course Snyder shows up with these like you know Sunnydale cops. The police of Sunnydale are deeply stupid.

[00:56:26] And that one cop gets killed right and they leave like that dead bodies on the floor. Did the cafeteria workers like find it in the morning and they're like just will put it in the stew like what. Seriously it's like I have business as usual.

[00:56:41] Oh dead cop whatever. It's like what is going on. Too funny.

[00:56:47] I um yeah the showdown scene in the darkened cafeteria is one of my favorite Buffy scenes with the two teams like lined up against each other and then you know all of them facing these like Gav Rock creatures or as Buffy calls them Gravelocks creatures.

[00:57:07] Yeah that was cute. What I did think was kind of dumb though is that we see the creatures twice drop from the ceiling on to people but then when they're looking for them they're all looking at the floor. I'm like look up. They like to drop.

[00:57:23] It's like if they can climb and drop please look above you. It reminds me kind of of that forbidden forest scene in Harry Potter with Aragog and all of his little spiders. Yes. I was thinking about that too.

[00:57:36] It's creepy even though there are many species of spiders that are our friends and they fly and mosquitoes and they are helpful. They are creepy. They are creepy creepy creepy seriously especially when they're enlarged. Yeah if I can see like the pinchers or anything. No I'm good.

[00:58:01] One of the reasons why Australia some of those like wolf spiders. They're so terrifying. But it does help in this episode that it's just like oh these aren't real. Okay.

[00:58:13] There's a great line in I think it's season three of The Good Place when Kristen Bell's character is talking about Australia and she's like I want to get out of this country where everything is either trying to kill you or a spider. Yeah. That's such a good show.

[00:58:30] Oh a tiny plug for another podcast. The Revisited podcast on Podcastica which is currently finishing up Ted Lasso. They're going to do The Good Place next. That's awesome. That's going to be fun to listen to.

[00:58:46] If you are a fan of The Good Place I would suggest you subscribe to that. I don't think I've listened to a podcast about The Good Place. I only listened to the official one that was like a companion to the show put out by NBC. That was good.

[00:59:02] It was really good because they had a lot of writers from the show on and talked a lot about the creative choices but I haven't listened to our kind of podcast where we talk about the show and what it means and everything so that'll be fun.

[00:59:14] Alright that's enough of a detour. Just see. Oh favorite moment of the whole I think of the whole episode though is when Wesley goes let's synchronize our watches and both of you will both show empty wrists. Yeah it's like Wesley is like yes typical. That was pretty fantastic.

[00:59:35] One one thousand two one thousand three one thousand. It reminds me of one of my favorite bad movies.

[00:59:41] What is the movie where Bruce Willis is like a jewel thief and he and his co-thief they time their heists with songs so they're both singing in what's it called it's called um. Alright I'm gonna have to Google like is it like jazzy songs.

[01:00:02] It's like singing on a star swinging on a star. Is it Hudson what is it. Yes Hudson. Hudson Hawk.

[01:00:13] That movie was on like I don't know if it was like TBS or TNT or one of those a lot when I was younger and every time it was on my brother and I had to stop what we were doing. Watch it. I mean it's not a good.

[01:00:27] No it's absurd but the heist scenes with the singing and dancing are so great. I might have to see if that streaming somewhere it's been a while since I've seen that. Gosh that's really funny.

[01:00:43] Alright so this one line in the episode always reminds me of the brilliant movie seven. So what's in the box. What's in the box. When did seven come out. That was before this right yeah so that's yeah I looked it up. That has to be intentional.

[01:01:05] I hope so but now for the rest of time nobody can say what's in the box without everyone thinking what's in the box. That's true I probably so that's another movie that I saw way too early I think I saw that in middle school.

[01:01:19] Yeah that's a disturbing one. Little bit but I had already read Heltner's filter so you know it's fine.

[01:01:27] I went to the coolest thing many years ago there's a indie movie theater in the Boston area called Coolidge Corner and they had this series going for a long time called Science on Screen and what they would do is they would get a scientist from you know one of the many many universities and hospitals and technology.

[01:01:49] And they would get companies in the Boston area who was an expert in some area and they would give a talk about something and then show a related movie.

[01:01:56] And so for seven they had a psychologist talk about psychopaths for like an hour and a half and then we watched seven. That's amazing. It was one of the best movie experiences I've ever had. Oh my gosh that sounds fantastic.

[01:02:11] I also saw an audiologist talk about decibel levels and sound for an hour and then watch Spinal Tap. Oh my God that's perfect. There were a lot of really great science on screen moments. I really loved that series it was really fun. Anyway tangent.

[01:02:35] Yeah but that is cool. I think everything else I have is just random little notes here and there. I love the reappearance of Mr. Pointy. Yeah that makes me happy every single time. Oh gosh. Let's see what other one liners do you have? Okay I have this one.

[01:02:58] I gotta have a plan really? I can't just be proactive with Pep. I do love that. I do love that. That's so perfectly buffy. And then when Giles is like you know we have to find out what they're up to and she's like oh I actually knew that.

[01:03:16] I thought you meant with maps and stuff and then later when he shows up and someone's like what's that? And he's like maps and stuff and makes me so happy. It's perfect. They're so precious.

[01:03:28] I have definitely said with maps and stuff to people when they're talking about a plan and had them be like what? And I'm like you're not a buffy fan. What's that trending sound right now on TikTok? That song I need somebody that's gonna match my freak.

[01:03:46] It's like I need somebody that will understand my obscure buffy references. Yeah that's what I'm looking for for my next man is I should put together like a buffy truce. Maybe a quiz and send it to all perspective matches on dating apps. That's perfect.

[01:04:06] Do you know the answers to these things? If you don't. Or a horrifying place. I was like I did think while in Scotland we talked about this a little before. The eighth quote unquote eighth season of Buffy in the comics.

[01:04:22] A good chunk of it is set in Scotland because that's kind of where Slayer headquarters is. And every castle we went to I was just like this would be an amazing set for Buffy. I so wish we would have gotten to see like Buffy overseas.

[01:04:38] And I was too paranoid like there was there was I did a whiskey distillery tour like a day trip around different distilleries near Edinburgh. And there was a gay couple on it who I just like fell in love with that were also obsessed with Buffy.

[01:04:57] And I named dropped our podcast is like you should totally listen and please write in. So Stephen and Eric if you're listening please send in feedback because I would love to hear people talk about Buffy in Scottish accents. It would be perfect. Oh best best vacation. Let's see.

[01:05:20] Yeah everything else jealous. I needed something good before all of the terrible ways the universe came back at me once I got. It's just like OK guys. Oh gosh we should just go to Scotland and record a Buffy episode there.

[01:05:35] Problem solved that would be amazing right Buffy on location. Well my my shorter term goal is to get you to come to Buffy. And record in person together in my apartment.

[01:05:47] That would be so much fun and Sam and Sam to yes because Sam is does not live very far away from me at all. Maybe half hour drive. I mean I was in her town a couple of weekends ago.

[01:06:04] And I was like oh my God I'm in your town and she was like I'm in my pajamas. That sounds fair. That's also my default if I am not at work and having to wear a suit or a dress or something I am in my pajamas.

[01:06:17] Whether that be sweats or a gigantic T-shirt. I have what I have started to call my painting outfit which is the ugliest shorts I own. And I'm not sure if I'm wearing a shirt or a shirt.

[01:06:32] I'm not sure if I'm wearing a painting outfit which is the ugliest shorts I own. And T-shirts that I can't wear outside because they are not covering enough of my bra and other parts of my body.

[01:06:48] So I don't mind if I get paint on them and so I can they can be messy and it makes me feel like a real artist to have paint on my clothes. That's legit. I could see that.

[01:07:00] I just had a flash to Lainey Boggs and she's all that with like her overalls covered in paint. Oh God. That's a good movie. God that's such quintessential. She's beautiful. Imagine that. I have one glasses to see.

[01:07:22] That's such a frustrating trope because it's like well I can take my glasses off but I have to put them on again. I had a male colleague at the district attorney's office.

[01:07:32] My glasses broke and so I wore my contacts which in a very dry environment is not enjoyable. And I walked in to work and he looked at me he goes you should wear contacts more often. I was like oh yeah why is that?

[01:07:46] He was like it ups your hotness factor glasses are gross. And I was just like I didn't ask you but thanks. And then I wore glasses basically every single day after that. Like nope. No no. I don't want anything to say to a coworker. Yeah. Yeah. Good times.

[01:08:06] Good times in. Okay it is time to move on to pop culture or non-pop culture references. Yeah just culture references for the most part. This one I wasn't sure whether to include but I was kind of hungry when I was making my notes so I included it anyway.

[01:08:20] And then I was like I don't know what the mayor say what would Tolhouse cookies be without the chocolate chips. And Tolhouse is of course a company a division within Nestle which makes chocolate chips and similar baking goods.

[01:08:34] And to me I feel like really Tolhouse cookie is basically synonymous with chocolate chip cookie. That was the number one cookie we had growing up other than Oreos. Oh now I want cookies. Does that sound like a cookie?

[01:08:50] Buffy says faith's turn to the dark side of the forest pretty much put the kibosh on any away plans for me. The dark side of the force for anybody who doesn't know this. Yeah I know. Is a Star Wars reference.

[01:09:03] The bad guys like Darth Vader were said to be on the dark side of the force to put the kibosh on something means to stop it from happening or put an end to it.

[01:09:11] There is some dispute over the origin of the word kibosh but it's most likely Yiddish. I have no idea if it is but I was like alright cool. Yeah for those people who have never heard a Star Wars reference in their life we know that.

[01:09:32] Who have watched Buffy but have not seen Star Wars. That is a very very tiny demographic. Alright my dad would be in that demographic. Weird. Yeah he refuses he has never seen Star Wars Star Trek. He has seen spaceballs though anyway. He's special.

[01:09:53] Another one we've got Buffy saying to willow I can't believe you got into Oxford of course we've talked about this the University of Oxford is in the United Kingdom in Oxford to be more specific and this is Giles is Alma Mater or as Buffy says where they make Giles is Xander also says hey you're going to be in the United Kingdom.

[01:10:13] Hey did you hear about willow getting into Oxnard which is precious and he obviously misspeaks but Oxnard is a city in California about 40 miles south of Santa Barbara which is where JW has said Sunnydale is so it's kind of understandable that Xander would make that mistake.

[01:10:33] Yeah willow says to Xander I think it's neat you doing the backpack trail mix happy wanderer thing trail mix is a mixture of nuts and nuts. Raisins dried fruit seeds or the like eaten as a high energy snack often by hikers and mountain climbers.

[01:10:50] The happy wanderer is an old poker song written by Friedrich W. Moller about well about a happy wanderer and you can find the lyrics in the show notes or the link to them in the show notes. I listened and actually really enjoyed it. It's not bad.

[01:11:08] And then of course we have Xander saying Karolak he's my teacher Jack Karolak wrote on the road the book that Xander is currently reading in which the main characters embark on an odyssey of drugs sex jazz mystical philosophy and new experiences as they travel on the road across the United States.

[01:11:29] And this book was one of the first novels associated with the beat movement of the 1950s.

[01:11:38] Cordelia to insult willow says MIT is a clear still add with housing that's the Massachusetts Institute of Technology a private university in Cambridge Massachusetts and clear still is a brand of skincare items such as Z it creams and MIT is very near and dear to my heart.

[01:11:59] And I think it's just because I can kind of see it from here but also because I have known and loved many MIT graduates some of whom are quite handsome and don't have any acne at all.

[01:12:14] So yeah I was just being mean like Cordelia has not been there. There's one of my good friends from high school went to MIT and is a professor there now and he's quite good looking.

[01:12:26] So he was the first person that popped into my head when I heard this and I was like oh Cordy no no.

[01:12:33] Let's see next up Buffy makes the reference to the mayor saying I'm tired of waiting for Mayor McSleaze to make his move while we sit on our hands counting down to Ascension Day.

[01:12:43] And this is likely a wordplay reference to Mayor McSleaze who was a character in McDonald's advertising in the late 70s and 80s. He was mayor of McDonald's land and he had a giant hamburger for a head.

[01:12:57] I remember that and if you're not familiar with the McDonald's land gang it's worth a Google because it's hard to believe that these were considered to be. For children they are terrifying. They really are. I think I've had a nightmare too about them. Yeah.

[01:13:23] Grimace Grimace is like yeah Grimace is scary and the hamburger is terrifying. Yep. Faith telling the mayor what happened to the courier. I made him an offer he couldn't survive. This is a paraphrase of the famous line from the 1972 mob movie The Godfather.

[01:13:43] I'm going to make him an offer he can't refuse. There is a similar line in part two of the trilogy. I'll make an offer he don't refuse. Don't worry.

[01:13:52] Man let's see and finally Faith caught Willow nosing through the mayor's books of Ascension at City Hall and said to her you just can't stop Nancy Drew. Can't you. The series of course referring to the fictional teen detective Nancy Drew whose stories were written by Caroline Keane.

[01:14:11] Many books TV shows films and video games of this character have been made since the first book was written in 1930. I love Nancy Drew. I never read Nancy Drew. I was a Truxy Belden reader. Nice. Nancy Drew and boxcar children for some reason had a stranglehold on me.

[01:14:29] More so Nancy Drew. It's time for trivia which is a lot like culture references. Which is why we put them together in choices when Buffy, Angel and Willow are on the rooftop of City Hall.

[01:14:45] It's the same rooftop from the season one episode Prophecy Girl when Buffy faces the master on the rooftop of the school above the library. With that really picturesque skylight situation. It's a pretty good set. And in Sunnydale's Town Hall the workplace of Mayor Richard Wilkins III.

[01:15:04] It's actually a chiropractic center in real life and this town hall has been seen in obviously choices where they broke into steal the box of Gavrock Spiders. And the scenes of the town hall were shot on location at 15411 Crenshaw Boulevard in Torrance, California.

[01:15:27] And I'm pretty sure I Google imaged it and it's still from what I could tell it still looks pretty similar today. It's kind of cool.

[01:15:36] I've never been to Torrance, California all the different times I've traveled to Southern California but next time I go I should go there because there's tons of Buffy sets. I bet there's like a tour or something that you can do.

[01:15:49] There was recently a hell mouth con that took place at the high school. That's cool.

[01:15:56] The stage direction for when Buffy sets off the alarm in City Hall and choices was she grips the box lifts it off the table and whoop whoop whoop there it is an alarm blares. I love that.

[01:16:09] And then she's like I would very much like to come up now please. Oh, that's a good one. And we mentioned this earlier but Faith steals a bow and arrow and bad girls which is what she uses to shoot the courier in this episode.

[01:16:23] Choices and spoiler alert skip ahead 15 seconds if you don't want to know how else it is used. Okay fair warning she also shoots Angel in graduation day part one with the same arrow that is essentially poisoned and done done done. So Kara it's been a while.

[01:16:46] But I think you know what I'm going to ask you. Does it still slay? As always pretty much of course I say it still slays. This episode is one that I do think is kind of underrated and we talked about why it has everything in it pretty much.

[01:17:05] And it sets up a lot for not only the rest of the season but for the rest of the series and for the Angel spin off so I say it definitely does. That is my answer as well.

[01:17:23] It's a favorite of mine I think because I've always had a special love for Willow and it's a real Willow showcase. It is a very good Willow episode. Yeah Willow's segment.

[01:17:35] So we often don't have news to share in a news segment but there is just one small announcement which is that Sarah Michelle Geller has been cast alongside Christian Schreeder in a Dexter prequel.

[01:17:52] And this was just announced a couple of days ago and it's such a new announcement that I've seen a lot of people on the internet asking if it's a fake announcement. But she put it on her own Instagram page so I think it's real.

[01:18:05] And I don't know that much more about it. She plays a chief of police or something. Will know more in the coming weeks. I love Christian Schreeder talking about 90s people. So I can't remember who else has already been cast. Patrick Dempsey was the one that stood out.

[01:18:22] Oh cool. It's going to be interesting. I don't know if you'll watch anything Dexter but this is going to be kind of fun I think. Good for her.

[01:18:34] All right let's head over to the bronze and get a beer or I guess a whiskey and maybe some cider and find out what some of our listeners had to say about the episode. Bronze things. Things of bronze. Bronze.

[01:18:55] We have a couple of voicemails this week and I think we'll do Steve first. Hello still slaying. This is Steve and this is for Buffy the Empire Slayer season two episode choices.

[01:19:10] I know you're taking a bit of a break so I figured I'd try to kind of get ahead here so I may do a couple of episodes but we'll see.

[01:19:17] Okay just watching the previously on and I really loved I know it's CGI but the whole Terminator 2 graphic of when his head comes back together during the previously on and like when he's pulling the letter ever. Oh the sword in the mayor's head. Previously on scenes.

[01:19:34] I don't know why. The mayor is so creepy in his grooming of faith. Yeah. Buffy honey during this whole slang scene just their relationship is just not right. I forgot about that. That's Oxford. That's where the McDonald's is. The open road and the open dumpster is your.

[01:19:55] Oh Cordilla that's a little harsh. This conversation was reserved for those who have a future. Gosh. What is this? Put your hands across your heart and by the power of destiny I forbid it. Yeah no that's not going to work buddy.

[01:20:11] Okay and real quick did Giles and Wesley just not just gloss over the fact that she just said she might die during this whole graduation ascension thing. Is nobody talking about that.

[01:20:22] And faith with the good shot long bow long long long compound bow that's what it is compound though. Oh faith I don't remember what's in this box but yeah don't open it up apparently for the mayor doesn't say. Yeah don't do that don't open that up.

[01:20:35] No Wesley you are not in charge at all. Of course none of them have watches. To synchronize I mean so we've broken into the mayor's office but Willow's been taken hostage.

[01:20:49] Oh they have the box okay I dozed out for a minute and Oz just took away the means to destroy the box. Oh the pencil in the back using telekinesis good for you Willow.

[01:20:59] And Willow is now in the mayor's office and she found his closet full of tricks and the books of ascension. Of course Snyder shows up trying to ruin everything. Oh yeah opening the box was bad idea when faith killed the one with the knife with her own knife.

[01:21:15] And she actually left her knife behind. Oh and Willow stole pages out of the books. Willow's gonna stay and fight the good fight. More about Cordelia in the future okay on to next episode. Thanks Steve I love reliving all of the emotions with Steve as he goes through.

[01:21:32] Fantastic that's a good point about calling her honey I forgot about that that does get under my skin. It's like ugh ugh alright and then we heard from Piotr and let me play that. Faith is so evil she's so evil she makes the vampires squeamish.

[01:21:56] Hello Steve Slaying this is Piotr's disembodied voice reflecting on the choices episode from Buffy the Slayer of the Vampires. Oh my god I love that.

[01:22:08] There are various choices that the characters are facing in this episode and their choices will be shaping the likely trajectories of their future lives. The choice that faith has made is evil which in a way made her choice very easy.

[01:22:26] Evil is simple it follows the entropy principle it's about destroying and dismantling. If evil does indeed have some elements of building it's usually creating some sort of contraption like a death ray or a hunting knife.

[01:22:43] The thing of beauty that costs a pretty penny that in the end is meant to cut through bone yikes. The choices that the Scoobies are facing are good choices which means they are more difficult because they're about building and building takes more time and effort than destroying does.

[01:23:02] I think in this episode we finally meet the fully baked willow the good witch and she even dresses the part. Her ultimate choice was to stay and fight against evil even though it would cost her dream of going to Oxford where they make dialysis.

[01:23:23] She created a hierarchy of choices in which the decision to stay overshadowed her initial seemingly important choices. I do think it is vital to tease apart what is the essential life choice and what kind of secondary choices can be built around that scaffolding.

[01:23:45] Now the thing that the mayor said to Buffy an angel made me think of the idea of useful delusions the psychological concept which works a bit like a mental placebo.

[01:23:56] If we convince ourselves that our relationships work or that our projects are on the right track we are more likely to actually succeed. If on the other hand we paint a mental picture of failure then we are more likely to fail.

[01:24:14] The mayor knew exactly what would rock the Buffy and Angel boat and did exactly that. This is why we should never listen to the Debbie Downer fortune tellers which we might sometimes encounter.

[01:24:28] To be honest they are actually right all relationships will be interrupted by death or something else but why focus on the end instead of enjoying the story as it unfolds.

[01:24:42] Oh and Buffy picturing herself at 50 with Angel that seemed so remote to me when I first watched it in my 20s. Now having just turned 49 the age of 50 doesn't seem so remote anymore. Sara Michelle Gullar herself is now 47 I think.

[01:25:02] How bad would it be for Buffy to be at 50 with the vampire with the soul? Do slayers actually age with their accelerated healing powers? Wouldn't that ability also prevent them from age related cell deterioration? This is something that the Buffy verse didn't quite address yet.

[01:25:23] And finally poor Zander left out again not having been accepted to any colleges or perhaps not being able to afford one. He made it seem like skipping college was his conscious choice by creating an independent anti-establishment Bohemian persona.

[01:25:41] His new cool thing that like most other attempts at being cool seemed a little funny. It's almost as if he bought himself a new outfit of the target's new anti-establishment Bohemian type collection. But he does have a point the American system of higher education is not ideal.

[01:26:02] There is so much money involved that stressing the importance of going to college sounds like a sales pitch. The majors must be chosen wisely or else the student loan can't be repaid. Anyway, that is probably a rant for another podcast.

[01:26:19] Thank you for letting me rumble even though it was a recording and you could have just pressed stop at any time. Keep on slaying. That was fantastic. I love that. And so much deeper than what I said.

[01:26:37] But I don't know why I never, I don't remember ever really thinking about that before about you know a slayer's healing powers kind of preventing them from aging either as quickly or slowing it down. Right?

[01:26:55] You would think there is at least one set of comics where Buffy is older. She's like inner fifties in the comic story and she you know, she looks older but not in any way decrepit. She's still tough. She's still fighting. She looks strong and she looks good for 50.

[01:27:21] And there's a scene where she runs into Spike and she's like, oh, I'm all old now. And he's like, you still look hot to me.

[01:27:30] And I love that because you know, he didn't age but from his perspective aging didn't didn't ruin anything about Buffy just kept her hot. Makes sense.

[01:27:44] It's true that like I bet there's not very many slayers that have ever found out about whether or not they can age because most of them die when they're like 18 or 19 or something. I'd be very interested to have more on that.

[01:27:59] I wish they'd explored it a bit more. I'm very entertained by the idea of Target having a Bohemian anti-establishment collection that you could buy from it.

[01:28:12] It often feels that way when I'm just shopping around and looking at things from like anthropology, I'm like, wow, $400 for a dress that's like a $400. That like a flower child might have worn in the 70s. That you could go thrift probably.

[01:28:28] But it's I like the way he phrased that because it, you know, it's also a very teenager coming of age thing to do is kind of try on different personalities and aesthetics when you're trying to figure out who you are.

[01:28:44] And also the idea that Xander maybe didn't get into any colleges but also doesn't his family doesn't have any money.

[01:28:52] He probably couldn't afford to go to college and and so he developed this contrary plan where he made it look like he was doing this other cool thing intentionally and not as a last resort.

[01:29:04] And I growing up, we didn't have a lot of money and I did that kind of stuff all the time. Like I pretended my fashion sense was weird when it was was I'm only I'm only getting hand me down.

[01:29:19] And so I got to make do and and I was like no no I'm an artist. I don't care about fashion. Well I cared a lot about fashion. Yeah.

[01:29:29] I just had to work with what I had and Pio thank you for reminding me of that and it does give me a little bit of more compassion for for Xander to remember that his family situation is pretty crappy. That's true. It would be different.

[01:29:46] It would be much more, you know, kind of douchey and pretentious of him if he was, you know, kind of an older cordillius position when like daddy had a lot of money or something like that.

[01:29:59] And he was going down that route but yeah there's nothing that makes me more crazy than wealthy kids play acting as poor kids. Yeah. I was struggling.

[01:30:15] Struggling artists is one thing that I saw a lot the like in Houston River Oaks area or Memorial area there'd be kids whose parents had, you know, endless disposable income who would want to have a reason to pretend like they were struggling.

[01:30:34] I was like this is kind of messed up. Do you guys see this? No. Like maybe you are struggling with your own internal battles but it's not money. Like that's a real thing that some people are dealing with and you can't appropriate it. Yeah, anyway. Geez.

[01:30:54] Okay so that brings us to the end of the main section of the podcast. Stay tuned for Watchers Diaries if you want to hear us talk about spoilers and stuff.

[01:31:03] And if you want to join the conversation you can find all our contact information at podcastica.com and in the show notes for every episode. Also at podcastica.com you'll find links to, you know, our social media and all the other many many podcasts that podcastica offers.

[01:31:23] And right now I'm really enjoying Strange Indeed is back covering the Netflix show Sweet Tooth. And Sweet Tooth is such an interesting combination of like adorable, terrifying, sweet, dark. It's and I love Rima and Paik their chemistry together the way they talk about things.

[01:31:50] It's like it's so comforting. I just I've just really been like digging Strange Indeed right now. Yeah. Sweet Tooth for those that have not seen it is absolutely worth a watch.

[01:32:07] I got completely sucked in when it first premiered and Rima and Paik really always add something that I didn't even think of. So it's been really fun supplementing my watch with them. I will say I have also been enjoying the coverage of House of the Dragon on podcast.

[01:32:27] Finally caught up and it has been super fun to listen to. And I listened to Penny and Onwin talking about the season two preview of Rings of Power. And I am about halfway through the first season of that one.

[01:32:42] And I kind of decided I didn't care about spoilers and I'm glad I did. So I think that'll be something to listen to. Yeah, I'm excited. I'm excited for Rings of Power to come back at the end of the summer. It comes back August 29th.

[01:32:58] That's on Prime for those of you who might want to check it out. Season one is already up there and we covered season one. That podcast is called The Cast of the Rings and we had a blast covering it and the show is.

[01:33:12] So much better than the misogynistic review bombing would have you. Yes. There was a lot of people very upset about a woman lead and elves that are not white. And how dare you get over yourselves because the show is so entertaining.

[01:33:32] And I love being back in Middle Earth. I'm so happy to be back on Middle Earth. I'm constantly waiting for them to introduce ants. I need you some ants. Yes. But it's got all the other great Middle Earth stuff we've got.

[01:33:48] They're not called hobbits, they're called Harfoots but there's dwarves, there's elves, there's humans, there's Numenoreans, there's wizards. I mean it is. There's never a title. Yeah. You guys are so much fun to listen to. I don't think I told you this.

[01:34:09] I went back and re-listened to pretty much all of your coverage because when I didn't have internet for like a week and a half thanks to AT&T, I had to watch a lot of DVDs and I have the extended editions of every single Lord of the Rings movie so I did a deep dive and it was very enjoyable.

[01:34:31] It kept me sane. I feel like I've been talking to you and Anwen a lot more than I actually have. That's really funny.

[01:34:40] That's like Anwen said she felt like she's been talking to me for months every week because of this podcast and I'm like, but I've missed you. Well I had a 10 hour plane ride to do a lot of listening and catching up on so it was awesome. That's perfect.

[01:34:58] Yeah we covered all of the Lord of the Rings movies and also on the cast of the rings is where we covered Shogun so if you've watched Shogun which I recommend you do. I still need to do that. There's an episode about that out there. Oh man.

[01:35:15] And as always guys if you like what we do please leave us a review or a like or give us a 5 star rating if you're so inclined and follow and subscribe.

[01:35:26] Next time we will be covering season 3 episode 20 The Prom and in honor of this episode we will be sharing some of our own prom photos along with some from our previous guest host so please feel free to send yours in as well and let us know if we can share.

[01:35:44] Thanks everyone and hey I danger for breakfast. But oddly enough she panics in the face of breakfast foods. Precious. Precious. Alright that's the end of the non-spoiler section if you want to avoid spoilers you should stop listening right now. Now. Now. Right meow. Alright.

[01:36:18] On to spoilery stuff and things in the Watcher's Diaries. It's too bad we can't sneak a look at the Watcher Diaries. I'm sure it's full of fun facts to know and tell. Yeah that's too bad. That stuff is private.

[01:36:33] So Giles keeps them in his office and his personal files. Most importantly it would be wrong. Alright the big one that we've been avoiding saying barely is that next episode is the one where Joyce confronts Angel and Angel breaks up with Buffy. So sad. It's really sad.

[01:36:58] It's really the only thing about The Prom episode that's important. All the other stuff about The Prom is kind of an overrated episode. People love it so much but I think people are just dazzled by the pretty outfits and the little umbrella thing.

[01:37:11] Cause might be my least favorite episode of the season. Like I can't think of another one that I enjoy less. I hate the one, the Christmas one amends with the first evil. I think it's so rather watch that than The Prom.

[01:37:33] I mean it's got some great moments in Prom and the breakup is important. I just hate those hellhound things. Yeah it's just dumb. I'm like oh okay. Yeah. But it is a significant episode going forward. It is important. And Buffy does have a really beautiful dress.

[01:37:59] And it's sweet. Like there are some bitter sweet moments. There are some great moments. Yeah it's not a complete waste of time but like.

[01:38:08] And then we move on quickly from there into graduation day part one and part two where you know all of these things come to a head and explode. And we get to see what the ascension really is. And iconic. I forgive the terrible CDI. Yeah.

[01:38:31] Big moments, big moments. Big big moments and lots of rites of passage and growing up and having to face the future and make decisions. And the beginning of Buffy's Leather Pants era. Oh yeah. Her college Buffy outfits are pretty fantastic.

[01:38:53] Like there are a few that are cringy that I can remember at the moment but for the most part I like the direction that they take her costuming. And I will say the mayor's speech. I didn't remember very much of it for whatever reason.

[01:39:12] Like I remember him kind of making digs and talking about the difficulties of Angel and Buffy's relationship but his bringing up Angel's higher purpose had completely fallen out of my head. And I was just like holy crap.

[01:39:27] Like that's what basically he does in opening Angel investigation and the spinoff. I was like Mayor Wilkins quite influential. Yeah, that's that speech by the way will be the opening for the episode. I'm so excited to watch. I have not watched it in years. What Angel?

[01:39:51] Yeah, it'll be interesting. I've forgotten a lot. So yeah, I'm kind of excited about that one. I can't wait. When Wesley joins the cast, the show just takes off. So good. And he's so different. He grows so much over on Angel. But they earn it.

[01:40:13] It's not a weird arc. It's not an arc that doesn't make sense. It makes perfect sense. And there's still a little dorky Wesley in there. Yeah, that's true. Yeah. It's gonna be great. He's so likable on Angel. And he gets hot. He gets really hot. Yep.

[01:40:36] The light objectification of Giles is going to also have to future include light objectification of Wesley. Yeah, that's going to happen. Speaking of Wesley, I kind of wanted to get your take on his argument about, you know, not trading the box for Willow. And he's not wrong.

[01:41:00] No, like all things considered, it's very much like for the greater good. And he's not wrong about saving potentially thousands of lives. And really in reality, we'll see in graduation day, it's dozens of lives more likely because of what the Scoobies are doing. What they're able to do.

[01:41:18] But I just can't help thinking about what happens like we see, you know, we learn later, harmony ends up becoming a vampire and Larry dies and Snyder dies and there are so many other Snyder dying is the good part. Well, yeah.

[01:41:37] It's not terrible, but still like overall, there's a lot of carnage from that. And it's interesting to me that Buffy was not willing to explore any alternative to saving her best friend immediately. Like there was no option of wasting time.

[01:41:57] And I think that would probably be my reaction in that situation. But it's very consistent for Buffy because that's also her perspective at the end of season five. And I think that's the only thing that's really important to me about Dawn.

[01:42:11] I'm not killing my little sister to save the world. If the world falls apart, the last thing Dawn will see will be me protecting her. So that would be my instinct too. But it's just it kind of reminds me of Dumbledore.

[01:42:25] I know I talk probably too much about Harry Potter. It's the millennial in me. And then there was Grinda Walden, Dumbledore and Harry Potter, which was the dark wizard before Voldemort. One of his sayings was for the greater good.

[01:42:40] And that was kind of bastardized and taken to the extreme. And I couldn't help thinking of that listening to Wesley Stance because they act like he is being utterly outrageous. And he's not. He's being really not. But like somebody has to bring that up guys.

[01:42:59] Like, you know, it's not ridiculous of him to mention. But when I was of course watching this, I remember younger. I was just like, shut up, Wesley. Like how dare you? That's just evil. But now I'm like, you know, he has a valid point.

[01:43:18] The thing about Buffy as a person and as a hero is that one of the things that makes her so good. And what's so great is that she has this deep love and she loves Willow and is not willing to sacrifice her.

[01:43:35] And a Buffy that would be willing to sacrifice Willow is not a Buffy that would be able to persist as a slayer the way that she has and win these big battles because she draws her power from it. So for her there really was no choice. No.

[01:43:56] Wesley doesn't know that is just because Wesley doesn't really know Buffy.

[01:44:02] No, but I think you know we talk about how many slayers got the chance to even age for that to be a consideration whether or not they're regenerative healing powers kind of aid and slowing down the aging process.

[01:44:18] And one of the main reasons that Buffy does survive is because she has something to live for outside of herself. It's not just survival instinct. She's surviving for her family, for her friends and that is something that eventually Wesley will learn. But it's fair enough. No.

[01:44:39] But that's one of the reasons that Buffy is able to go through and push through what she deals with because she has people that she cares about. And it's one of the things that really sets her apart from faith and Kendra.

[01:44:53] It's just, I feel bad for Wesley sometimes. Yeah. Not that bad. But it pops up every now and then. I will say too, poor Xander and his carolacking on the road he tries.

[01:45:16] You know we find out later in season four that he does in fact go on the road and his car breaks down. Yeah, he makes it like up a new mile. He's just like poor guy. But I also love that he sets out and does that.

[01:45:33] He tries to get out of Sunnydale and that's a big risk for someone graduating high school. But I think that also makes me kind of start to respect him and like him a little bit more. He gets a lot better in season four. Yeah.

[01:45:51] There's a lot of Xander. There's a lot of things about Xander that get better. And the fact that he develops like a real skill set and career eventually in construction, it's like he found a place for himself that makes sense.

[01:46:05] Like he was never going to be like a school nerd right? As much as Willow is his best friend, school was never his thing. I constantly believe that he has a learning disability that's not treated. Yeah.

[01:46:20] And construction ends up being perfect for him and it's actually incredibly useful. It's true. That's true. Oh Xander, he's going to grow. It'll be good. We'll talk less shit. It'll be fine. Oh, I do love like the Willow of it all too.

[01:46:41] You know, I have a shot at being a badass wicker. It's like just you wait honey. It's going to be intense. And this is also the first time we see her kill someone with magic technically. And I couldn't help but flashing forward to Warren.

[01:46:57] It was like, man, we make a lot of leaves. There's a lot coming. There's a lot coming. It's kind of amazing when you think about it the whole series, how much Willow is going to grow and change in the next few years. And they do it so well.

[01:47:13] So, so well. I'm excited. And you listeners will be there with us. Yay. So much to come. That's the complete end of our show. Thank you everybody for listening and until next time, I am Penny. And I'm Kara. Keep playing.