35: “Graduation Day: Part One” (BTVS S3E21)

[00:00:00] Mm-hmm. Ah! Ooh... Well... Aren't you a vision? I feel like it's stupid in this. You look lovely. Perfect for the Ascension. Any boys that manage to survive will be lining up to ask you out. It just isn't me, though. Not you. Let me tell you something.

[00:00:29] Nobody knows what you are. Not even you, little Miss Cyn at all. This engine isn't just my day. It's yours too. Your day to blossom, show the world what a powerful girl you are. I think of what you've done. What I know you will do.

[00:00:51] No father could be prouder. Hello everybody and welcome to Still Slaying, a Buffyverse podcast. I am Penny. And I'm Sam. And I'm Kara. This episode we're going to be discussing Season 3 Episode 21, Graduation Day Part 1, directed by J.W. and written by J.W., Jane Espenson, and Doug Petrie.

[00:01:44] The original air date for this episode was May 18th of 1999. Some alternative titles and other languages for this episode were what translated to the challenge first part in Italian and the blood of the Slayer in German. Well, German really likes to give away the twist, don't they? Right?

[00:02:09] No surprises. I can guess what's going to help. First up, let's welcome back Sam to the podcast. Sam, thanks for joining us this week. Thank you so much for inviting me. I'm so excited. I love podcasting with you too. You guys are amazing.

[00:02:27] So nice to have you back. We love having you and listeners, you may have heard Sam also guesting on Dragon Cast recently. If you are a fan of House of the Dragon, you should be listening to Dragon Cast if you're not because it's so good.

[00:02:43] They do such a great job. Oh my goodness. The hosts are so interesting, not just their guest hosts like Sam, but the regular hosts are so smart and they have so many interesting things to say.

[00:02:57] And if you're a fan of Buffy and you also want to smash the patriarchy, I think House of the Dragon has some interesting patriarchy topics to think about. Yeah, there's some good crossover there. Definitely. Also dragons. Yeah, yeah. Hot people, dragons, fantasy. Matt Smith. Yeah.

[00:03:21] Like just fantastic wigs, amazing wigs. Oh my gosh, I know. It's amazing. It's like the best wigs in Hollywood right now is House of the Dragon and the costumes anyway. This is a Buffy podcast. Let's go back to May of 1999.

[00:03:46] Number one song in the US was Living La Vida Loka by Ricky Martin. Such a good song. Number one song in the UK is Swear It Again by Wisplife. I don't think I've heard that one. Boyband time. Really? Oh.

[00:04:09] Bestselling books will meet again by Mary Higgins-Clark, fiction and Going Strong once again is The Greatest Generation by Tom Broca, nonfiction. US box office. Number one was The Mummy, the original ones kids, not the remakes. So good. So good. So good. Number two was The Matrix.

[00:04:33] Again, original one folks. Yeah, the first one. Not the others. Number three was Saving Private Ryan and number four was the tragedy film Patch Adams that scarred a lot of us. That's true. Just not a good movie.

[00:04:54] No, it was just heartbreaking moments that traumatized me I know as a 15 year old like whoa this is scary. And during the week of May 18, 1999. Millennium, the third studio album by the Backstreet Boys is released.

[00:05:11] I definitely bought this and was listening to it nonstop on my little Walkman. Just before or after it skipped when you went for a walk. No, I had finally gotten one of the non-skipped ones. Oh yeah. It was a big deal. It was some advanced technology in 1999.

[00:05:33] And this, of course, is one of the best-selling albums of all time with over 30 million copies sold. That's funny. I love that Kenny added a little note. This fact was at the top of every web page I looked at that summarized events from this date.

[00:05:51] That's because Millennium is such a big deal. Yeah. It is. It is. The late 90s, I feel like that. And gosh, no strings attached by NSYNC was a little bit later. I think it was the following year.

[00:06:06] And also this was when Britney Spears hit the scene really big. It was a big time for sort of like former Disney, Mickey Mouse club kids. Yeah. Yeah. It was a great time to be a fifth grader.

[00:06:25] It was a great time to be the parents of fifth grader. My mom, that is true. My mom took me to some fantastic poppy concerts. Nice. She really was. Oh my gosh. Also on May 18th, Amazon.com made this was huge at the time.

[00:06:46] They sparked a book price war on the internet by cutting their list price for best sellers in half. They just announced they're like anything that's on the New York Times best seller list is 50% off.

[00:06:59] And Barnes and Noble.com, which was preparing for its upcoming IPO and they were in sort of a quiet period. They had to match it. And then so did borders books. And interestingly, Jeff Bezos was the time person of the year for 1999.

[00:07:15] Amazon, like they went from being like, Oh, there's this thing where you can buy books on the internet to like, you know what they are today. And it seemed to happen kind of overnight. It was like, they sell books. Oh, they sell other stuff too. Oh, they're everywhere.

[00:07:32] They're everyone. Yeah. Jeff Bezos is an evil person. Dang, is he smart? Or he has people who are really smart that he listens to. Very smart to do that. And then in May 19th Star Wars Episode 1, the Phantom Menace came out.

[00:07:54] It's directed by George Lucas starring Ewan McGregor, Natalie Portman and Liam Neeson in theaters. I remember going to that and we saw it at the nicest theater in New York City. Oh my God, I cannot remember the name of it now. But it was a scene.

[00:08:19] There were all these people there who had people sitting in front of us had all these Star Wars trivia cards, you know, like game cards. And so we ended up playing trivia with them before the movie started and the movie caught

[00:08:34] in the film projector and melted in the middle like in an early scene. And then the lights went up and everybody's like in the theater life. Now what's going to happen?

[00:08:45] And I went out to the lobby and it was complete chaos in the lobby with people yelling at the like two ushers that were out there and no other staff was anywhere to be seen.

[00:08:57] And these two ushers had these huge rolls of free ticket coupons and they were just handing them out like water. They're like, dear God, these nerds are attack. Yeah. People were angry. Oh yeah, you don't mess with us. Yeah. No, no, not nerds, not opening night.

[00:09:18] No, no, no. And then that's taking your life into your own hands. Yeah. And then eventually they were like, hey, we're ready. It's going to start again. And everybody went back in the theater and then at the end of the movie there were

[00:09:29] people in the lobby handing out those free ticket vouchers one per person. And I was like, well, I already got about 14 of them, but I'll take one more. They're like, we'll just keep throwing this at them to keep them at bay. Like we're wild animals.

[00:09:45] They're throwing food too. Like here, here, not me. Tickets here. It was so funny. The movie itself, eh, but the experience of seeing it was super fun. Yeah. Mine was not nearly as exciting.

[00:09:59] I just went to go see it in the theater, front row seat and I saw that movie four times. Wow. Was this right around the time that they re-release the originals in theaters? Do you remember when that was? Yes.

[00:10:17] They did like I think a year or two before, right? Yeah, it was right before. Because that's that was my first exposure to Star Wars. My dad still has to this day has not seen a Star Wars movie.

[00:10:31] So when they re-released all of them in theaters, my mom and I went and in one day saw all three. Wow. And it was, I was hooked. Yeah. Well, I mean they like held you hostage for 12 hours. And also you were what, 10 years old?

[00:10:48] You're the best for the game. Yeah. Exactly. I was 10 and I was just like, dad, you have to watch these movies. And still, you will not watch them. All right. You have to watch Mary Potter though. So I won that. There you go. Good for you. Yeah.

[00:11:04] You got them on a little bit. Yeah. A little bit. And then let's see, May 16th crime in the U.S. falls for the seventh consecutive year. The FBI reported violent and property crimes each dropped 7% in 1998, which was the largest

[00:11:22] annual drop since the beginning of a downward trend in 1992. Oh, the 90s. Oh, yeah. The crime wasn't rampant. On May 17th, Sonia Gandhi steps down. She resigned as president of India's Congress party after colleagues said she should not be prime minister because she was born in Italy.

[00:11:44] She was the widow of former Prime Minister Rajiv Gandhi. And then on May 25th, after an outpouring of support from her party, Gandhi triumphantly withdrew her resignation. I see people. We can have a female president. Yeah. I was just gonna say.

[00:12:06] May 17th, Labor Party wins in Israeli election. Ehud Barak, party leader elected as prime minister. Voters reject leader of three years, Benjamin Netanyahu. Hmm. Why? Kind of, I mean appropriate right now. This is why I always say like the late 90s was like the best time.

[00:12:28] Like there was this general trend leftish in the world. And then after 9-11, everything went downhill. Yeah. Good time. Great times. Then on May 18th, Japan steps up and bans child pornography and parliament would also outlaw child prostitution in a victory for international law enforcement officials. About time.

[00:12:59] Took him that long. 1999 child prostitution. All right guys. On May 20th, the Senate in a 73 to 25 vote for gun control measures approved the juvenile crime bill including requirements for safety locks and background checks on purchasers of firearms at gun shows.

[00:13:18] The so-called gun show loophole which is sort of back. And vice president Gore was a key factor in breaking some of the dead locks on the bill. This is when he was running for president and in the news all the time.

[00:13:40] This news is kind of hurting my feelings. Nothing that you did, Betty. It's more of like remember how we used to be. Exactly. Yeah. 30 years later right back around. Remember in the matrix how the machines are like, we have humans perpetually living

[00:14:00] at the end of the 20th century because that's when they humans are the happiest? I'm like yeah that was. That was when I was the happiest. Like the late 90s were the best time. Well it seems like it. Yeah. Matrix. That's a glitch here. We're in 2024. Yeah.

[00:14:18] Fix it. Let's go back. May 21st. I know. May 21st. On May 21st all my children's star Susan Lucci finally wins a daytime Emmy after being nominated 19 times the longest period of unsuccessful nominations in television history. I'm like, wow. Did people just not like her?

[00:14:43] I mean it must have been a running gag after the fifth one she didn't get. Yeah. It was a topic of conversation on late night talk shows and Good Morning America and The Today Show. Every year they'd be like Susan Lucci is nominated again.

[00:14:59] Will this be the year? And when she won in 99 lots of people were like what? It's the end of a tradition. What's happening? It's not how this goes. How many times was Leonardo DiCaprio nominated before winning? It was a lot.

[00:15:19] I don't remember the number but he was another one that people were like is he ever going to win? I mean say whatever you want to say about his personal life as an actor he really is fantastic. Yeah. This is true. This is very true. Yeah.

[00:15:34] I caught a little bit of catch me if you can the other day. Is that what it was called? I love that movie. Yes. And I was like oh my god he was really good in this too.

[00:15:44] Like I had sort of forgotten about his early stuff and he was so good. Yeah. And in growing pains I had the biggest crush on him. That's funny. Yeah. Between Romeo and Juliet and Titanic. Oh god yeah. And then the boy bands came in.

[00:16:02] I mean there was definitely an aesthetic going on. Yeah. I was. Fluffy hair. I sort of fell for him in basketball diaries which tells you a lot about my type. And I know it's not good.

[00:16:20] It's not good but his acting in What's Eating Gilbert Grape was some of the most amazing acting I had ever seen up to that point and I was like. Broke my heart. I was like I don't know. Like I don't even understand how he's accomplishing this.

[00:16:39] Like it was so beautiful. That movie was painful and beautiful and intense. Yeah. A lot. It was a lot. That's good. Yes. So good. Speaking of painful and intense. Let's get into graduation day part one.

[00:16:57] I first of all got real nostalgic about the yearbook scene and I found my old high school yearbook and I flipped through it and I was like I'm only in two pictures in this entire yearbook. I was pretty offended by that. I was on the yearbook staff.

[00:17:16] So yeah. I actually have my fifth grade yearbook in the other room. Oh yeah. We had elementary school middle school in high school. Wow. I all have them. They're all a stack. Middle school yearbooks definitely but I don't think elementary school ones. They're very small.

[00:17:36] I was also on the yearbook committee and they didn't put me in any pictures. So I mean I was a ginormous nerd. Like I was on your book committee. I was in college. I was on the yearbook committee. I was in choir. We didn't have a band.

[00:17:56] I would have been in that too. But they didn't put me in any of them and I think the teacher that was in charge of the yearbook committee was like oh I'm so sorry. Except for my senior picture of course.

[00:18:08] But yeah everyone else had like tons of pictures because you could stack the deck. That tracks. I love the scene where Harmony gets Willow to sign her yearbook and Willow's like oh I'll miss you. And then Buffy's like well here I have it.

[00:18:32] I hope we don't lose touch. No we'll hang out. Hi. Hi. Oh I'm going to miss her. Don't you hate her? Yes with a fiery vengeance. She picked on me for ten years. Evacuous tramp. It's like a sickness Buffy. I'm just missing everything. I miss PE.

[00:18:52] I don't think it's contagious. The whole senior class has turned into the 60s. What I would have imagined the 60s would have been like you know that the poor and the hairy armpits. You don't feel it? No I don't.

[00:19:09] I mean I guess I'll miss stuff but I just don't get the whole graduation thing. I mean you get a piece of paper and nothing changes. I don't even think I'm going to go. Oh trusty soda machine. I push you from up there. You give me coke.

[00:19:27] I was Willow. Suddenly we all became best friends and I'm like you put gum in my hair in 10th grade. But we all became that. KIT. Keep in touch. I did not. I was like, I remember who was a jerk and who wasn't and I have no

[00:19:52] need to have the yucky people sign my yearbook. I have my own friends. I went to a pretty small high school so everybody knew each other. It wasn't like there was big clicks or anything and there was lots of overlap but there were definitely high school people.

[00:20:11] Graduating class. Mine was 118. Oh my God. Mine was 84. Yeah we were a private school. The only reason I could go is because my mom worked there. Mine was 581. Moly. That's so big. Into a giant Texas public school.

[00:20:38] I remember, gosh, I think the song came out around the same time as this episode was popular. But in the hills which aired as I was, I think a junior and a senior in high school, they played that vitamin C graduation song.

[00:20:59] That was mine when I graduated in 2003. It just kept resurging and I think the hills made it a little more popular. I remember my friends and I hearing that song on the radio while we were driving or people putting it on intentionally just so

[00:21:16] everyone could cry and talk about how much we were going to miss each other. And now I'm just like, oh God. Yeah. That time. I was so ready to leave high school. I was like, bye. I was like, I'm going to leave high school. Leave my home.

[00:21:39] Go to New York City. I was like ready. I can't wait to leave New Hampshire. I got to go. I did enjoy the nostalgia thing and I do get it. Especially the soda machine thing is so funny because it's so specific.

[00:21:55] There are things like that about my hometown that sometimes I still am like, oh, I remember that. I remember that. The corky thing or this silly little thing that was just very my hometown. It doesn't make me want to go back there, but no, no, I do have

[00:22:14] like mild nostalgia about it. There's like certain restaurants and there's this parking lot where we all used to hang out all the time. And whenever I would be in that town and I would drive past there, I'd be like, oh, I wonder if high school kids still

[00:22:28] hang out in this parking lot. And I was like, like around this time when the episode came out of apparently kids don't hang out in malls that much anymore. Malls are sort of dying past time, which is so interesting to me. I worked at the mall.

[00:22:43] I had a very cliche job. I worked at the Gap. Oh my gosh, you're one of the cool kids. I was not cool until I worked at the Gap and then like popular kids would come in and be like, oh, you work here?

[00:22:56] And like suddenly they knew my name and stuff because they would ask me to help them shop. Left. I thought you're gonna say discount, but actually that track and I'd be like, why would I do that? We're not even friends and like all get fired. Like no. Why?

[00:23:15] Why? I like God, the audacity. Yeah, like the audacity of like risk your job and commit crime with me person. I don't even know. Person I'm not nice to ever. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Too bad you didn't do it and like set them up to get caught.

[00:23:31] Yeah, I wasn't that devious at the time. I didn't catch someone shoplifting once. I was, um, I was just, you know, doing whatever I was doing as a sales associate and I found this guy at the back of the store.

[00:23:47] He had a bag and he was just, he was like crouched down on the floor, just like shoving jeans into a bag. What? And I was like, can I help you? And he was like, no, I'm all set.

[00:23:58] And he like grabbed the bag and started to run out. And I was like, he's stealing. You are. Yeah. Yeah. Oh my God. I don't know how he thought he was going to get out. It was super conspicuous. He had this like giant bag.

[00:24:13] I was like, what do you do with it? Is it that like the confidence thing? Like if you just act confident, you'll, you'll get through it or something. Maybe. I don't know. There was a lot of stuff that I encountered as a teenager

[00:24:25] working at the gap that, that widened my eyes to the world at large. The number of people that thought it was like cool to have sex in the dressing rooms. I was going to say what did people do in dressing room? I mean, oh my God.

[00:24:42] Also the number of people that stuck their gum to the sides of the dressing rooms. Like seriously? Like were you raised in the barn? I don't know. Yeah, I was never this person. I never understood it. I was like, I've never stuck my gum anywhere that wasn't

[00:24:57] like a trash receptacle. I don't understand the entire phenomenon of gum like under tables and. Well, some people are assholes, Penny. Oh, wait. That's just like. And by some people, I feel like most people. I know, I know. We're so cynical. It's so true.

[00:25:28] It's like the more you learn about humanity, the more you're like seriously, we're great and awful. I remember telling my mom that I was a misanthrope and like, I don't know, eighth grade. And she was like, do you even know what that word means?

[00:25:45] And I was like, why do you think I'm using it? Like, yes, I know what it means. And I would always talk about being cynical. And last year she goes, you know, I think I'm with you now. I think I'm a misanthrope. I understand.

[00:26:00] And I was like, well, I'm very sorry that. That you've arrived. Yeah, sorry. It's not exactly a fun way to be to be like humanity sucks. It's like, oh, but then every time you look outside, you're like, yep, there they are sucking. Like, yeah, I'm a realist.

[00:26:20] It's like, yeah, no, they're, they're, they're dumb. Sinicism, if it's realistic and you keep being proved. Right? Yeah, it's, yeah, it's the research is like something about how pessimists are actually more in touch with reality. Yeah. And optimists are the ones that help propel people to

[00:26:42] essentially get up and do stuff every day of like, you need hope. Otherwise it's like, it's like pessimists are actually more accurate to what's going on. Unfortunately, they're all just balance each other. Right? You need a little bit of delusion if you're going to accomplish great things.

[00:27:02] Like you have to be a little bit great point. Like cuckoo. If you're, if you're going to do something like giant, gigantic, you have to have a certain amount of just obliviousness to the odds or to reality. And you know, some people succeed and some people accomplish

[00:27:19] great things and we can't all be those people. But, um, yeah, I guess I'm more of a pessimist than an optimist. For me, it depends on the day. It depends on what humanity has handed me that day. I have a friend who recently was, uh, encountering something

[00:27:39] absolutely horrific at her workplace and she was like, Oh, I'm just too sensitive because now I'm really upset. And I was like, no, you're not too sensitive. Your reaction is completely reasonable and appropriate to the circumstances. Like don't beat yourself up about the reaction.

[00:27:55] And she's like, oh, I didn't think about it that way. And I was like, yeah, the reaction you're having is uncomfortable and you don't want to feel that way. But it's not the wrong reaction. You're not crazy. You're not like, like, biologically off center.

[00:28:10] Like this is the appropriate response. I don't know if it helps her. I like to say like, and I swear it's like almost like half of my job is saying like, that's a normal reaction to an abnormal situation. Yeah. My therapist says that to me. I would agree.

[00:28:31] I would concur. Mine does too. She's like, I do the same thing. It's like, yeah. Yeah. I'm not the crazy person. No, no. Unfortunately. That's usually not our patients. It's usually. That's true. The number of people that I talk about in therapy that

[00:28:51] refuse to get therapy or think it's a joke. I'm just like, this is this track. Yeah. They're the ones who need it. Like faith. Talk about faith. Faith made a very big, very big choice in this episode. Yeah, she did. She needs so much therapy.

[00:29:11] Faith has layers and layers and layers of problems. Trauma. So much. But she makes it makes for great TV. Right? She's like, I would not want faith to be in my life as like a friend. No, but no. She's so fun to watch on screen. She's she's unpredictable.

[00:29:34] She's erratic. She's impulsive. She's gorgeous. All of this makes for a great TV character. Yes. Her relationship with the mayor is. Charming. She's like, I don't know. They're both murderers. It's still like, oh, he treats her like the daughter you never had. Like there's, I know.

[00:29:59] There's a part of you that comes out once her to be loved by him and. And it's like weirdly. A little bit healing for her, but he's a monster. Like it's so strange. I know. But I know I do love this scene of her coming out in that

[00:30:16] way. And he's all complimentary and not in a creepy way. No, like it does seem very much like fatherly in the way that he's like, look at you. And she's like, yeah, it's not really my style. And he's just like, now hold on. Wait a minute. Yeah.

[00:30:32] And he builds her up a little. You don't even know who you are yet. You're only nine, like 18 or whatever. Like, yeah, he calls her little missing at all. And. And it's like, he knows her. He wants good things for her. You know, he wants her to heal.

[00:30:49] He wants her to be a whole person. And yet he also is like, go murder someone for me. Like it's his version of a healed person. It's so weird. I got so distracted during that scene because Eliza douche

[00:31:05] came out and it fit for the scene for her to be barefoot. Like it showed her softness, the vulnerability, her comfort in being soft and vulnerable around him, even though she's like wearing like something that doesn't match with her toughness and her being on guard.

[00:31:23] But then I remembered that J. W. You has a preference for women to be without footwear in his TV shows and movies. And now it's just weird, especially since she's supposed to be a teenager. I know she's 18, but she's a child.

[00:31:39] That is an appropriate thing because there's no way that faith owns a pair of shoes that would go with that. Yes. Yes, exactly. Like it fits the scene. She's like combat boots girl all the way. Yes. And 100% and maybe some like sexy like knee high boots.

[00:31:57] Not like strappy. Combat boots with that dress would have been very 90s. She would have needed fishnets and like a one of those ribbon chokers. That would have been great. It could have been a very 90s look. You're right. That would have been amazing.

[00:32:15] It could not have been a less faith dress. It wasn't sexy. I know. It wasn't pink. Aggressive. It was like this delicate pattern and the fabric was delicate and the color was so soft. I know. I loved that she was uncomfortable in it.

[00:32:38] I thought it was really an amazing scene of their relationship and the way that he saw things in her that nobody else saw. And then he could get things out of her that nobody else could get out of her. I don't know if I'm wrong.

[00:32:56] But I don't know if she's wrong. I don't know if Wesley had given her that dress. No way. Throw it in his face and like no. Fuck you. Rightfully so. Or like if Buffy had tried to lend her some of Buffy's

[00:33:12] clothes, she would have been like, it's not really for me, B. She just wouldn't. She wouldn't have done that. But with the mayor, I would be like, this is just an intentional murder. She is not. You know,

[00:33:25] she would have been like, I don't know if you can deal with this. But I would say you know, what's true is that Buffy, I mean, she's not really trying to get in the way of herself. Even though she's clearly uncomfortable about it. When she clearly trusts him,

[00:33:40] like she's all in with him. And I mean, we obviously, she's willing to kill no questions asked for him at this point. And we talked about, you know, if this was cool and you know it's I think it's interesting that they kept the the parallel of

[00:33:57] her stabbing him and we talked about it last time when we talked about her killing the deputy mayor like how personal the act of stabbing yeah someone is yeah yeah and this one like she interacts with

[00:34:13] he lets her in and she takes advantage of that trust like he sees her he assumes she's a student you know tells her to come back for office hours and she didn't even seem to hesitate before

[00:34:29] stabbing him yeah no she's like she's like oh hey turn around and and then he says I'll scream and she's like who wouldn't like yeah she's so casual about it it's so like closed off and it's so just

[00:34:47] it's it's almost like she's resigned herself to like this is my identity and I have someone who supports me in this identity and is there for me and it's just kind of chilling to watch especially

[00:34:59] if you know her character arc yeah and it's just sort of like wow you really had a compartmentalized and shut things down huh yeah in order to be able to do this completely dissociated from what's happening

[00:35:12] in front of her I mean that lester guy couldn't have been more harmless and sweet right yeah right he's just like this academic nerdy guy who's like oh the mayor's interested in my research you know I know

[00:35:29] and I thought it was an interesting choice to not show us yes the actual act of her and his reaction you just hear it which is almost worse you know because your imagination and yeah all that she's

[00:35:44] like oh faith is almost fully gone now and you know I just think about everything that led up to that moment and Buffy kind of you know we talked about how Buffy was the one willing to

[00:36:01] hang on the longest and have hope and faith still that faith could turn it around and in this episode it's kind of you know the point of no return yeah almost especially when you

[00:36:16] think about how it's paralleled with Buffy stabbing faith at the end yeah yeah and how how that affected Buffy in the moment she went there to kill faith and still when she did it she

[00:36:30] was like like horrified by it the only humans that Buffy has killed up to this point are um Gwendolyn post in the episode uh what's it called revelations and she doesn't try to kill Gwendolyn

[00:36:52] she cuts off Gwendolyn's hand because she's got the glove on and then the lightning kills Gwendolyn so she didn't knowingly kill her and there's another time when she causes a human death but it's another time when it's it's not it's super intentional what is the the homecoming episode

[00:37:12] are there a couple of people hunting the two hunters and they kill each other yeah right so technically cut like she's been responsible for human deaths but not at all to the end

[00:37:28] yeah not like not like faith did so when she stabs faith fully intending to stab her knowing she's a human knowing that you know she might kill her with this stab wound it's it's like a

[00:37:43] sea change for Buffy like she's never experienced anything like that before and you could see it on her face and she was so determined I mean she went to that apartment fully ready I mean

[00:37:53] faith says look at you I'll dress up in big sister's clothes but like she's put on the leather pants that line you know she's she's become it's those pants would go on to be real iconic for Buffy

[00:38:06] but this is I think the first time you see them yeah what is that saying dress for the job you want not the job you have to job you have so she's like I'm gonna dress like babe the killer yeah

[00:38:18] yeah and then and the handcuff thing like she's like I'm not letting you get away from me like she was determined but then the actual act of doing it was brutal for her yeah yeah

[00:38:33] but at the same time fascinating he's doing it because of her love for angel yeah and because faith didn't really give her much of a choice no like Buffy is still not going after faith

[00:38:49] and killing her because it would be the convenient thing to do no it's it's only because she's been pushed into this corner and it's the only option she sees and I love that Xander has every

[00:39:02] time then Xander has these moments of clarity and he says to Buffy I don't want to lose you and she's like oh faith won't kill me and he's like that's not what I meant

[00:39:13] I know such a good brilliant so insightful such a good line you know he knows the difference between killing a demon and killing a human and he knows that it's gonna destroy Buffy you know

[00:39:24] they didn't talk about it but they all remember when Buffy thought she had killed Ted and Ted was human what she went through yeah you know and it almost destroyed her and you know it turned

[00:39:36] out he was a robot and she got over it but that was a horrible experience nobody wants to see her go through it again yeah I mean Giles points out that faith has her at a disadvantage and Buffy names

[00:39:48] the exact reasons she's like I'm not crazy and I don't kill people right yeah yeah that those are those are significant things to not have when you're dealing with someone who does do those

[00:39:59] yeah go and head to head stop person amazing yeah it's like that's you know kind of being like okay now I have to get down to her level I just this whole episode I just love Buffy and faith's relationship

[00:40:13] like whether it's platonic romantic familial a mixable the above it remains one of the most complex dynamics on the show and it's so fascinating to watch these two like their humanity comes

[00:40:27] through and they're in the messiness and everything and I just love it I think they're fantastic when they're on screen together too yeah there's so much chemistry between them yeah so good you know

[00:40:42] rewatching it as an adult and then an adultier adult at 36 I now completely understand why people thought there was some sort of you know you know romantic chemistry between Buffy and faith yeah

[00:41:04] I totally see it yeah I can't unsee it I'm like there's so much sexual tension between those two yeah exactly I I get a feeling if it was released in 2024 maybe the television networks would be brave

[00:41:18] enough to have them have a relationship or at least like a kiss or yeah something I mean faith says give us a kiss and then Buffy punches her face which is perfect that's how faith that's how faith

[00:41:34] flirts but I would have loved to see it an actual kiss like it would have been I don't know that might have changed the entire trajectory of my sexuality as an adult um incredibly hot and if the mummy didn't do it then faith and Buffy accurate accurate

[00:42:01] it would have been amazing and and I think they wanted to go there there's certainly been there's like trivia and stuff on the internet that says that that sometimes there was more written into the scripts and that the network didn't let them go forward with it yeah

[00:42:28] they were okay with a side character being gay but a primary character yeah that's why it was Willow but having you know their main character even hint at being bisexual was not okay and this was also

[00:42:43] the era of people who are bisexual are the bad guy right this is like um oh yeah what was that uh Sharon Stone movie that was so big basic instinct was around this time and and it was all like oh

[00:42:57] she's bisexual that means she's got loose morals you know like yeah that bisexuals were like the that was code for bad guy for a long time in movies and tv and I am a big fan of a later

[00:43:14] wb series or cw series called The Hundred and yes that show had a main character who is bisexual and and they don't even ever talk about it she just is it's no big deal and it's so great

[00:43:34] she just is bisexual she just has relationships with both men and women and like nobody bats an eye I love so many things about that show it's it's so good the women are leaders men are leaders

[00:43:47] like black people are leaders white people are leaders Asian people are leaders like everybody it's a very like everyone seems queer on the show yeah it's a weird like just openly open it's a weird utopian view of society even though it's the most dystopian like horrible

[00:44:06] most apocalyptic world they live in but yes they go through more crap on that show than the walking dead carry oh yeah I mean one thing after another after so that's what we need to do in this world

[00:44:20] to give people a chance to just exist yeah if they have different ways other than the majority and everything is apparently we need to have like a new apocalyptic event yeah it's like remember

[00:44:33] this isn't that important let people live and you know oh yeah that's right because we have a fight to live yeah it's like yeah yeah everyone does now um I uh if if I had all the time in the world I would

[00:44:46] love to podcast about the hundred because I think it's a fascinating show and so so it has so many fun sci-fi themes that I enjoy like there's a whole bioethics storyline there's there's a AI storyline there's you know redemption stories Murphy yeah space exploration

[00:45:07] murphy murphy it ends kind of dumb oh I hate the last season I hate it yeah I there was a lot behind the scenes that was interesting and and their writer director was very problematic from what

[00:45:21] multiple staff people have a little bit of reincarnation of JW happening yeah yeah unfortunately there was a lot of rumors for that um but hey we got uh Alicia Debnem Keri left 100 to go be in fear

[00:45:38] which was great for like three seasons she was really great in the hundred I think I had her on her oh yeah just a smidge yeah yeah I mean she's such an amazing character on the show all right

[00:45:52] we we are digressing if you like Buffy you will like the hundred it's yeah it's the first few episodes of season one can be a little bit of a turnoff because it feels a little teen romance

[00:46:10] drama in the first few episodes but it starts getting good right away like yeah you just hang in there hang in there because the first few episodes are kind of like oh I like this boy and you

[00:46:21] shouldn't like him at the same time as me and like whatever but they get past that so back to Buffy and of course I have um some sound clips that I want to share with you all

[00:46:39] so I thought how about this one um I love the scene where Giles and Wesley are fencing and Wesley is like all in and Giles is reading the paper oh yeah I am not that old

[00:46:53] casual it was so hot now what did the good professor out of the way which leads to the question how come I'm gonna destroy the entire city but I take the time to kill harmless Lester

[00:47:04] first tying up Lucent Lester had something or knew something then I want to know too the mayor is trying to hide I say we go see ah by attempting to keep a valuable clue from us the mayor may have

[00:47:18] inadvertently led us right to it but page are you on west so you already get there I like how Wesley mansplained to both Buffy and Giles yeah and they both look at him like oh like just like we just said that

[00:47:40] thanks for the summary Wesley we we're all good yeah we're good here and and Giles just casually holding his own against Wesley's you know epic attack oh my gosh so funny so hot yeah very hot sexy Giles very dorky Wesley and just love it hilarious

[00:48:03] love it earnest Wesley and I love any scene where we get to see that Buffy isn't just good at fighting right like she's smart and she doesn't have a lot of security in herself about like academic

[00:48:17] smarts but she should at this point get into northwest she is clever clever and yeah understands yes she understands the way people work and she immediately is like this is faith this is how

[00:48:32] she would kill someone I you know I recognize the brushstrokes the whole thing her blood's a good when she's sassy to Wesley I never get tired of Buffy sass I love it it's so good Wesley has

[00:48:47] it coming yeah oh 100% and like what you were describing Penny is like when the mayor walks in she casually like she she thinks to hide the newspaper with a murder and like casually hides it

[00:49:01] out of eyesight yeah smooth like there's so much intelligence going on here yeah speaking of when the mayor walks in oh yeah um I still remember my stomach dropping the first time I watched that on

[00:49:16] TV yeah it scared the hell out of me watching so there's an amazing music cue when he walks in yep yep oh I made my stomach drop again I got goosebumps I got goosebumps like oh no that music intro of him

[00:49:42] is like like it's so horrible and then it's such a great scene he's such a jerk yes he's like and and then Giles stabs him which god doesn't everyone want to stab somebody when they're being

[00:49:56] a jerk yes I have I have that I'll stab those words that's one spunky little girl you've raised I'm gonna eat her I'm gonna eat her whoa I love this character violent outbursts like that in front of the children you know mr. Giles

[00:50:28] to you to see how to behave I love the mayor some of your deaths will be quick that's worth anything well see you all in graduation you don't want to miss my commencement address it's gonna be one heck of a speech

[00:51:04] great Buffy soundtrack action there that music is so stressful no it is it's so good and yeah his the actor is fantastic and I just I love the duality of that character yeah and it was something care when you were saying like your stomach

[00:51:25] dropped when he walked in and I definitely think it was part of the music and I remember watching it I didn't realize it at the time but I remembered it watching this time we as the audience know

[00:51:35] something about this character that they don't they figured out that he was immune to harm or something until the graduation I think but they didn't see that like we'd seen that before

[00:51:49] yeah but then you can see it on their faces when Giles stabs him in the chest and everyone's like oh and then he just like his reaction whoa it's like whoa like it's not even just that it

[00:52:02] doesn't kill him like it barely even faces him he's like yeah what an annoyance you ripped my shirt you know yeah Giles is like oops I shot my shot and in the heart and still didn't matter

[00:52:17] and it was like oh boy yeah like he was a very big threat to our to our people and I just like how he talks about the children and caring about the children yeah and it's like because he's also

[00:52:27] so wholesome you know the milk instead of whiskey I know and you're like he it's like a leave it to beaver character plucked from that show and dropped into this demonic universe yeah it's

[00:52:44] I've seen this actor Harry Greiner in you know numerous other roles um he was big in the 90s and early 2000s he he showed he popped up on lots of shows and I very recently rewatched an episode of

[00:52:57] Charm that he's in and he usually plays either a good guy or like a neutral person and I think this role must have been like the the role of a lifetime for him like first of all he's like

[00:53:13] a seriously main character on a show that was super popular at the time yeah and it's must be so fun to play this combination of maniacal evil and wholesome and and you know he has some of the

[00:53:29] funniest lines he has great entrances and exits like he's the star of season three and that's up against fate you know I know it's amazing so good so good so good there's just so much

[00:53:47] tension in that scene and it's so juicy like I know all of them do such a good job obviously the music contributes but the looks on all of their faces it's just it's so well played yeah and the audacity

[00:54:07] of him strolling into the library in the first place yeah it's a great point part of what catches you off guard it's like yeah he feels invincible he's practically invincible but he's getting a little

[00:54:18] cocky yeah and he goes into their safe spot like I mean we know bad stuff happens in the library it's over the hell mouth but like that's where our scoobies meet up like that's their

[00:54:28] place remember like when the kids walked in they're like what are you doing in the library yeah I love that and then here comes the evil infecting it like you're not supposed to be allowed in here

[00:54:44] well it's like a giant fu like he's playing mind games with them oh 100% like purposefully riling them up and trash talking you know like yeah it's like um it's like in bring it on when they're

[00:54:59] like when the clovers go to uh the Toro's game and they cheer in the stands it's that same kind of thing where they're just like so we're coming for you yeah it's like we own you now yes yeah it's

[00:55:18] like oh that movie but yeah we will be covering bring it on on this on this podcast you should have Jason do it I think that'll be a great feedback just having Jason watch it and being like

[00:55:36] like I want us to start like I still remember that entire opening cheer from memory I just need him to sit and yes that would be amazing I would love that

[00:55:56] so one of the things in the episode that like really resonated with me and I didn't I didn't realize it until I was watching it for the pod is Buffy ending her toxic relationship with the

[00:56:09] watcher council yes oh yes I hate the council I hate it I do too it was like truly epic and it landed with me in as an adult adult uh-huh in 2024 different than it ever had in the past and I even

[00:56:27] like texted petty I was like can you record the audio for this amazing and you know I have it so here let's listen it's not council policy to cure vampires did you explain that these were special

[00:56:39] things not under any circumstances and yes I did try to convince them try again Buffy they're very firm well we're talking about laws which have existed longer than civilization I'm talking about watching my lover die I don't have a clue what you're talking about and I don't care

[00:56:59] Buffy we'll find a cure the council's orders are to concentrate on orders I don't think I'm going to be taking any more orders not from you not from them you can't turn your back on the council

[00:57:23] they're in England I don't think they can tell which way my back is facing Giles talk to her I have nothing to say right now yeah Giles mm-hmm that's how you do it mostly go back to your council and tell them until the next

[00:57:38] layer comes along they can close up shop I'm not working for them anymore don't you see what's happening faith poisoned angel to distract you to keep you out of the mayor's way and it's working

[00:57:52] but we need a strategy I have a strategy you're not in it this is mutiny I like to think of it as graduation yeah dang I I yelled at my screen when I was rewatching it earlier and Wesley makes that little

[00:58:21] comment about Buffy turning her back on the council and I was just like they have turned their backs on her and Giles repeatedly like she owes nothing to them yeah how does he think that is going to

[00:58:34] be what like gets her yeah like that's a good point to make it's like Wes yeah and it's like have you met Buffy like right like you have to follow the rules is not the way to get her to do something

[00:58:49] no it's it's just it's very emblematic of unfortunately a lot of institutions or workplaces that it's like you are supposed to give us undying loyalty no matter how we treat you

[00:59:02] and she steps into it of like I don't think I'm gonna be taking orders anymore because you guys let me down again so it's either equity or equality or whatever like reciprocity yeah um or or nothing

[00:59:18] so like this is what we're you know this is what we're working with and I just I love her stepping into that power yeah just being like the council can close up shop and the audacity of the council

[00:59:31] to think that they can just order Buffy to do something and disregard her personal life entirely to be like oh let him die you need to focus on the mayor and she's like yeah yeah you're insane

[00:59:48] she's not a soldier they treat they treat the slayers as disposable yeah yeah and as as like like not even having a personality right they're just like little storm troopers yeah like just like

[01:00:04] like no free will that this is yeah it's their calling and it's but they she should place that over everything and it's like no I mean I know that they're they're ridiculous and they'll

[01:00:16] never be in this space but the fact that she doesn't prioritize just slaying over anything anything else is the whole reason she survived in as good as she is exactly it's her starting

[01:00:30] so many times that Buffy's empathy and ability to love other people is one of her biggest strengths and it's a huge driving force in her will to fight yes and without that she's not Buffy and

[01:00:45] she's probably dead yeah honestly she would just with the other slayers yeah yeah they hardly ever made it past 18 and it's like yeah because the way you guys were doing it wasn't working so

[01:00:56] a woman came up with a way to do it differently and you don't like it tough but like Buffy has so much to live for she's not it's not just survival instinct on top of

[01:01:09] everything else you know she's got a man she loves a vampire man and no matter how inappropriate relationship is she does love him and he does love her right like yeah that's yeah that's a

[01:01:23] powerful force yeah I just and Harry Potter and she also saw how quickly the council fired Giles right like yeah they aren't loyal to their people so why should she be loyal to them like they

[01:01:41] fired Giles so fast they were like you fail exactly is loyal to her yeah which I think I had either said it when I guessed it or put it in a voicemail of like I don't understand these watchers kicking

[01:01:55] like keeping Giles out of the loop it's like he's the only one with a slayer why aren't you people like at their beck and call yeah this is your whole purpose for being and he's the only one

[01:02:04] who's got a slayer and he's not invited to the retreats or something I was like he's the only one that's actually having a job right now I thought it was perfect timing for the writers

[01:02:14] to do the Buffy breaks up with the toxic council in the graduation episode well I guess like part one of the graduation episode because like she steps into her autonomy and power in that scene

[01:02:26] at least for me and like they need her and it felt like it was the culmination of the past three years of being a fan of the show in that moment where she's like you know what

[01:02:37] I'm not doing this anymore all the ways that they treated her and Giles her family Giles like like crap and now she's like you know what no more I'm graduating from this relationship I'm changing

[01:02:50] like she had said before in the beginning of the episode like what's up with graduation we only get a piece of paper and nothing changes well Buffy you're graduating in different ways and she's right about high school graduation the actual ceremony is kind of I mean whatever

[01:03:05] it's more for the parents yeah but yeah but the act of completing something and moving on in life and accepting adulthood and making your own decisions is incredibly meaningful and she does

[01:03:22] all of that in that one moment it's like it all coalesces and she's like I'm in charge of me yeah yeah it's a it's it's my favorite moment up to this season and it's topped by a thing that

[01:03:37] happens in season five and we could talk about that in the watch your diary spoiler section yeah but I have like a real hatred for the council I don't like the way that they treat Buffy I don't

[01:03:53] like the way that they treat Giles I am very suspicious of stuffy old white dudes from white men England like right who have been imperialists and are used to telling everyone what to do and

[01:04:12] they withhold knowledge making decisions from a fall yeah and they like they have all this information that they don't share with Buffy you know they have like a huge library and all this

[01:04:23] research and like they give it to her in these little dribs and drabs when she needs it most in order to hold their power and it's it's crappy and toxic is a great word for it because

[01:04:37] it's abusive and and seeing her you know throw off this abusive relationship is inspiring and I hope that young people watching the show are like yeah you know who you work for matters and

[01:04:53] how they treat you matters yeah that'd be a nice lesson to learn younger in life as opposed to yeah later in life yeah it's like you are what's valuable you are valuable inherently not your productivity and don't give your you know dedication to any company or institution that

[01:05:14] doesn't value you back it's the quality and I love that Gen Z seems to be stepping into that because it's powerful it's important yeah they're like why would I give you more than what you pay me

[01:05:25] for like this whole I was a concept I was so like taught that if you want to get ahead you give 110 percent you work overtime without being yep without complaining about it you take on

[01:05:42] job responsibilities beyond what you know is in your job description all those things that then go early stay late yep and never complain never complain and watching younger generations be like

[01:05:58] I'm not doing that and knowing that it cost me my health you know I'm like yeah good for you and I support you and I I want the younger generations to like push corporate culture

[01:06:11] just off a cliff just like yeah such thing is like they're like name recognition like I had this friend oh I have this friend he's still alive but um I I have this friend he worked really hard in medicine

[01:06:24] and he's a specialist in cardiovascular surgery and he came around to the different hospitals in massachusetts and they were giving him like pennies to the dollar and like he sacrificed a

[01:06:36] lot to be this good and he was telling them like why are you offering me so little you know in comparison for that job and they said will you get name recognition and he's like forget that and now

[01:06:47] he's working at a great hospital in New York City that's like oh good so many people hit up artists to do work for free and then they're like oh it'll be great exposure for you there's going to be 100

[01:07:00] people at my wedding or whatever and it's like no don't do that people no no no pay your friends for their artistic stuff yeah like this is this is not this is not free this is for like hairdressers

[01:07:10] everything yeah like exposure does not pay bills exposure does not pay rent and it's hard work and as an artist myself it's not just the exact amount of time that it took to make a specific

[01:07:25] piece like the time that an artist puts into a piece is like years of training and thinking and mistakes and making bad art and looking at other people's art there's so much that goes into

[01:07:40] every single piece and if you like art pay for it yeah absolutely this is true for all the chefs out there too like like this is legit unless it's like a gift or something like no like pay

[01:07:56] these people for their time their energy their life that they spent doing this for you yeah I worked at a law firm that that imploded and I learned a lot from watching what happened in the

[01:08:09] aftermath the law firm was falling apart and various partners were going to other law firms and they were cherry picking their favorite associates to take with them and and then they were fighting over the particularly valuable associates right the ones that had like really

[01:08:24] good client skills or good relationships with the clients or whatever and and the way that they were still after the firm was like we're shuttering we're closing our doors we're winding down business

[01:08:37] being like you should be loyal to the firm was like ridiculous I'm like no as soon as uh you said that I was losing my job I started looking for another one and I am only going to do the

[01:08:51] amount of work necessary to not get sued for malpractice that is the level that you're going to get for me and I'm going to leave for another job and it was amazing after I was at a new law firm

[01:09:03] one of the partners from the old law firm who was still at the old law firm like winding up business called and was like oh the client needs this this and this and I was like I don't work

[01:09:12] at that firm anymore like y'all are closing and I got a new job and he was like but you owe us to finish the work on this client and I was like like bitch no I don't I don't I don't work for you

[01:09:27] like I don't I don't know how else to explain it and he yelled at me about being ungrateful and I was like what are you talking about whoa what does gratitude have to like no no no you you pay me

[01:09:42] for my expertise and I worked really really hard when I worked there I worked long hours I did all the things that you asked me to do and then you went out you're going out of business and I left

[01:09:54] like we're done yeah we're done you got all the loyalty you were gonna get for me and we're done and then I went there's no I went to a partner I um one of the partners who took me to this new

[01:10:07] law firm and I was like uh this just happened am I crazy and she was like no he is yeah thank you exactly it's interesting how that that follow yeah this is the weirdest conversation I've ever had

[01:10:24] like why does he think that I still have to work for him it's so yeah yeah and I guarantee you the fact that you're a woman oh yeah also made that conversation take over like excuse me what no

[01:10:37] very comfortable like saying mean stuff to me and talking down to me and ordering me around and I was like oh my god dude and I I developed a lot of attitude after that whole thing happened because

[01:10:50] I had clients follow me and I was still pretty junior and I was like oh I'm good they're lucky to have me like it completely changed my perspective on my job and my value I was like yeah I'm really

[01:11:04] good at this and they need to treat me like I'm really good at this and they didn't and I don't I love that I love that everyone do that yeah like it's your job is what pays for your life yeah we'll get

[01:11:21] I'm still dealing with the health ramifications of burnout yeah like and it's it's been well from my leaving my really really toxic situation it's been three years almost at this point

[01:11:37] and now I'm like I don't know if this ever goes away well I read and it takes a while it takes three to five years yep to cure burnout and that's after if you leave and are not working so Kara you're

[01:11:51] still working at it another job so it's going to take longer for you because you're still traumatizing yourself with work so um yeah that's true yeah that's 100 accurate of yeah I mean I I think

[01:12:05] it's you know unfortunately a lot of people have burnout and it's it's it's always in a toxic environment it's always unhealthy and no one's going to hold your boundaries but you and yeah if

[01:12:18] you're in it that's like being in a war zone for your nervous system every day yeah and so yeah it's going to take years to recover and absolutely if you're not working or if you're working in a

[01:12:29] very supportive thing and you hold your boundaries the amount of times I've had to remind people of like 40 hours and no more than that that's believe me a capitalist society would love to

[01:12:41] make us work more than 40 hours oh yeah we're just not productive after that I am well that's where being billable hours comes to hot billable hours very much so we gotta get you someplace where

[01:12:55] you're salaried I had an employee um for a for a few years I had a team of employees that were in the Philippines and they very much had this culture of like an American company came to us and gave us

[01:13:11] really good jobs you know and so they they worked so hard and one of my employees emailed me one time and she said is it okay if I work from home today the flood waters outside my apartment

[01:13:24] are waist high and I was like you don't ask in that case you tell you say I'm not going outside in these floods like your health and well-being are important to me as your you know manager and

[01:13:42] absolutely you could work from home today do what you need to do to take care of yourself like safety first and other people were like wow Penny's such a nice person and I was like

[01:13:54] that's not like that should not be a high bar what I just did like that should be the minimum yeah no I had a trainee and we were going over some cases and they raised their hand and I was like

[01:14:13] what like I mean there was we were like a group setting and and they were like can I can I just I just need to run to the restroom and I was like well one just please go take care of yourself and two

[01:14:25] don't raise your hand if anyone makes you raise your hand to use the bathroom as an adult frankly as children this makes sense either but as an adult freaking run like that yeah that's toxic eat

[01:14:39] drink you know take care of yourself while you're here I was horrified that this fully grown adult had been conditioned to that point in our field yeah to raise their hand and I'm like there's

[01:14:50] only like four of us here like what say excuse me anyone that kind of power oh yeah yeah don't give anyone that kind of power like what but it's absolutely it's a very American culture thing I

[01:15:03] think it's very different in Europe I remember one time we had somebody from like our sister law firm in England came and worked at our firm for six months and I was talking to the partner who was

[01:15:15] his boss in England and she's like oh we're hoping he'll pick up a bunch of your American work habits and I was like you're hoping that he'll rub off on us and we'll pick up some European work habits

[01:15:28] like yeah when I'm on vacation I don't answer email and stuff like that oh my gosh for the first time in my life in Scotland I did not open my work yeah that was for the very first time

[01:15:42] don't do that anymore like don't don't answer it anymore like hey I like I like to sort of use me as like an example when when I'm with people of like I literally work in a situation

[01:15:55] where there's life and death and I don't answer my my phone or emails when it's the weekend or I'm on vacation or you know after closing time because a hospital has other people who will

[01:16:06] pick it up and also if it's an emergency you shouldn't be calling me at nine o'clock at night you should be calling that one yeah and I only know that because I had a great mentor who taught me

[01:16:15] that and she was like if it's an emergency you shouldn't be calling me you should be going to the hospital if it's not an emergency it can wait until I come into the office exactly

[01:16:23] I was like I had a I had a friend at the law firm who took a vacation to Alaska to go camping and he specifically chose it because not even satellite phones would work there

[01:16:40] that's hilarious and he's like I don't want to be physically able to check email or take a call it's a good call and I was like it's sad that you have to like

[01:16:51] I know and like me as a psychologist I'm like so the power comes from within you and like like just turn off the notifications on your phone and this is when I encourage people

[01:17:02] you know what that is media yeah I'm like turn off the notifications on your phone so like you have to open like you have to push on that mail app you know to look at it and go on Facebook

[01:17:15] go on Instagram go on TikTok like we can channel this in a different area if you need to look at your phone no work our brain does not like it when we do work we're supposed to be on vacation

[01:17:27] because then you're you're no longer allowed to heal from work at that time your brain doesn't listen to it that way so the only way to recover from burnout is to work while you're

[01:17:37] recovering like it's like no no no no no no no no no because now you're not on vacation your brain's confused now all right I feel like we've been on quite a tangent about workplace environments it's a valuable conversation and I'm glad we're having it but

[01:17:54] I think we should move on but first I want to take a little break hey we're back from a little break and we're ready to not go on any more tangents and talk about the episodes more

[01:18:13] and I'm gonna start us off by saying how much I enjoyed Anya and Zander's interactions in this episode the you know the first one where she asks him out and and has the amazing men love sports I'm sure of it conversation with him

[01:18:38] it's hilarious men watch the action movie they love to look at the Muslims I mean she's not wrong but he's also not wrong when he's like a thousand years of you know vending our wrongs and that's

[01:18:52] what yeah about us like yeah here reduce us to this I know I kind of vacillated back and forth with Zander in these scenes like Anya definitely makes him more endearing but like I have this written

[01:19:07] down of like when they're they're talking and I'm just like Zander such an ass like I get that Anya is a former demon but like don't talk to her like that like he just gets really snippy because

[01:19:20] like she doesn't remember all the nuances of being human and it's like okay come on she's not being awful to you um and then I will say when they're saying their goodbyes

[01:19:30] he says he can't run away with her because of his friends and she says so and he points out that her humanity is still a work in progress yeah okay point points and er I like that was kind of cold

[01:19:42] of her yeah but she's like I love their dynamic when I think that something could happen to you it feels bad inside like I might vomit and he's like welcome to the world of romance and she says it's horrible no wonder I used to get so much work

[01:20:00] yes oh man Anya would have a field day with the women on dating apps it's a perfect pipeline for them yeah I'm not a vengeful person so I don't think I would ever call

[01:20:15] on on yonka but there are some men who would have a better person than me my my take is always cut contact like oh 100 I don't want to have any more interaction and vengeance requires interaction so

[01:20:31] yeah I I wonder if it's because like when she became a vengeance demon you couldn't cut off contact that easily yeah they live in the same town yeah yeah so they'd be like oh how do I get

[01:20:42] them to just you know ghost me or leave me on red oh I know all the vengeance demons yeah divorce was an option yeah I mean we have a lot of freedoms that people are trying to take away

[01:20:55] from us but that do allow us to get very important they allow us to leave men at the current time in our in our society and it's a huge difference right like women used to have the whole

[01:21:10] their husbands got killed you know what I mean they'd be like they poisoned them or something because they had no other way out which is what I love in America coming up right now of like men want to get rid of divorce but do you remember what happened

[01:21:26] what women had to resort to when they couldn't divorce yeah it's like a whole TikTok comment section where they were just posting different lethal plants you could grow in a garden

[01:21:42] it's like you know I mean you know just take away the choice doesn't mean you take away the option so if men really want to go back to a time when women were in the kitchen and were not allowed

[01:22:03] to be to get a divorce then women are gonna have to go back to poisoning their husbands because I know and you know yeah yeah yeah and vengeance demons I mean it's not going to work out very

[01:22:18] well yeah um that was not good for anyone and yeah I hope we don't end up back there um but Anya Anya knows about an ascension right because she's been to one before and I think Emma's

[01:22:33] very handy. She did an amazing job of portraying abject terror like when Xander's like the ascension and then she stops talking and the look on her face it's it's fantastic acting because up

[01:22:49] until then she's been all like sassy and funny and snippy and insecure and girly and like all these things and then it's just like all of that drops away and all that's left is fear it was beautiful

[01:23:01] it's so good so so good that was a really god they're also good at conveying so much depth with just a look yeah yes it makes this show so much more rich to watch

[01:23:19] and I do love too in particular the the scene with Giles and Xander where they're unfolding you know in the book to see what this prior demon oh yeah and they have to unfolding I know

[01:23:35] I haven't written down as a demonic playboy yeah just like a demonic centerfold and then you know Xander we're gonna need a bigger boat with the jaws that we're gonna need a bigger boat is never not a funny thing to say like I know when it's

[01:23:55] appropriate it's so funny it's so good and it was so good so exactly perfect in that moment I loved it so good and I liked how the show expanded the lore by having the audience learn more about

[01:24:10] demons in our world which were hybrids versus their true form yes that'll come up later but I I liked how that you know just kind of expanded that I found that very

[01:24:21] Buffy was just like excuse me yeah I've been fighting them for four years and Anya might as well have been like no little girl like yeah she's like you have no idea fighting demon light oh my sweet summer child yeah like

[01:24:38] what you don't know about demons is a lot and I love that the winter is coming on graduation day but all of them didn't know right the council didn't know that yeah yes and and why was there

[01:24:49] so much more terrifying this is something that is truly unprecedented yeah it's kept it's kept locked away this is what happens when you keep knowledge watchers and also be open to getting

[01:25:03] information from all sources right like have they ever thought to talk to demons and and find out what demons know about other demons like Anya is a source of so much useful intelligence because

[01:25:19] of her experience you know what that reminds me of what how much knowledge we gained about the psyche of serial killers and serial rapists after my dog Douglas yeah and other people who started

[01:25:40] the behavioral analysis unit the behavioral science unit with the FBI going straight to the source instead of theorizing instead of you know projecting your own psyche onto their actions to try to understand them like gather information from a primary source it's it's it's basic academia

[01:26:10] right yeah candy that Anya has been around for thousands of years whereas Angel compared to Anya is a child toddler yeah yeah even more ways than one a toddler speaking of of Angel again watching the

[01:26:29] show in this day and age in 2024 I just when Faith shot him with that infected arrow I and he had the symptoms I'm like oh it's demonic COVID yeah he's lying in bed sweaty fever dizzy I mean he'd probably

[01:26:49] be coughing if he breathed regularly I'm just like yeah oh Angel I feel you yeah man pax low bit or something oh I know that's a slayer blood slayer blood is pax low bit exactly

[01:27:03] for vampires drink some bleach you'll be fine the president's body to sunlight it'll take care of it a stake to the heart it's perfect it works on animals it'll it'll it'll be very good for you

[01:27:18] yeah totally um everything about that scene when when Faith shoots him first of all he and Buffy are having such a classic breakup moment where he's like are you mad at me for being around

[01:27:30] or not being around she's like yes and yeah it's like everything is upsetting about you right now how can you not understand that your existence is upsetting and then Faith shoots him in that

[01:27:44] whatever vampire who's next to her is like you missed the heart and she's like she's like meant to it's like she's with a man explaining this episode yeah it's like you missed the horror

[01:27:53] and she's like meant to I would have loved it if she would have like just like staked that or just clocked him just been like shut up yeah like I meant to shut up I know what I'm doing like I

[01:28:04] I have a whole dumb ass so yeah it's almost like it's my job yeah like I'm an expert at killing vampires I know exactly what I'm doing I um this is a really good plan I mean you know

[01:28:17] I'm not on Faith's spies but distracting Buffy by putting Angel in danger is brilliant brilliant and brilliant same thing with kidnapping Willow yeah in exchange for the box of what does Buffy say

[01:28:33] Gavrox? She calls it grab grab lock grab grab lock that's it instead of Gavrock and it's just like they know how to they know how to play her yeah and yeah they really do and it's Faith both times

[01:28:45] Faith is the one who sees Willow and captures her and it's it's more about like just knowing your enemy right Faith knows Buffy and her friends really well so she is using that knowledge against them

[01:28:58] in a very effective way it's really smart yeah and if the cure had not been a Slayer's blood Buffy would not have had time or energy to go after Faith in that moment right she would have

[01:29:12] been fully pursuing a cure for Angel and it's just coincidence that it that it's a Slayer's blood and that it means that she gets to fight Faith and in her mind she's like bonus I get to fight Faith

[01:29:23] right like that's just a plus yeah um I uh I love the scene when when Oz like discovers the cure and and he's all like oh oh no and Willow's like no look it says completely reversed oh I see

[01:29:38] I know it's a it's it's Slayer blood and then Buffy's like no that's perfect it's yeah she's like I got this it's a chilling scene because then they all in the room realize

[01:29:50] oh Buffy's gonna kill Faith like oh um so poetic it's her if she's right it is perfect Faith has it coming she's the one who put Angel in this situation um it's interesting the poison

[01:30:08] if I were a Slayer I'd be like let's could I get some of that poison to just keep for future like other vampires I want to I know right seriously I'm like this is very useful

[01:30:21] it seems really helpful um I also love when uh when Buffy's like all right I'm gonna pull the arrow out on three and then she pulls it on one I love it so funny like I knew you were gonna

[01:30:35] do that because that's exactly what he would have done to like it's oh never said I think that's one of my favorite little tropes in movies and tv shows when people do that he's been injured yeah

[01:30:48] and they're gonna count to three yeah and they never get to three and they never do it on three it's it's clever it's kind of like how when I have to get like a blood drawn or whatever I don't

[01:30:59] look at the cycle yeah if you don't look it doesn't hurt as much yeah I'm I'm here I like to just stare at it and be like yeah I have to look at it I'm just looking at it like oh I made that

[01:31:15] that's how I am when I when I'm giving blood right and they're and you're all hooked up and you're watching it like flow out of you and you're like and you could like pump your

[01:31:22] fist to make it go faster that's fast I'm like I know I I'm perfectly placed in the hospital because I'm like this is so cool I've liked that all the time I don't know it's so weird

[01:31:34] it's morbid doesn't help when I'm saying that to a patient they're like thanks yeah oh there's nothing worse when you're a patient and the doctor is like oh this is interesting you're like I don't want to be interesting like

[01:31:52] when I had my wisdom teeth uh impacted I had all four impacted at once and oh my god it was incredibly painful and I went to a I was at a teaching dental hospital and

[01:32:03] he was like can I bring my students in and like 23 people came in the room and they're all like you can always tell them no do they say no it's too much I I would say I said yes

[01:32:13] and they all came in and they're all like does it hurt a lot and I'm like uh I don't like I don't like this now like at first I was like yeah I don't care about students that's

[01:32:23] fine and then I was like oh no they're all fascinated that's not a good sign yeah you don't want to be yes no it's never great no I yeah it's it's never a it's never

[01:32:36] a good thing no never a good thing also not not a good thing watching my first autopsy I was like am I supposed to find this fascinating no I yeah no it it definitely is it's fascinating

[01:32:48] I love it I'm like oh we make that and they don't look like people anymore but yeah another because if I let my brain think about them being people then I'm gonna puke and pass out

[01:32:59] that that is true you do have to shut that part off of you like on the vampire diaries just shut off your humanity yeah one of the yeah

[01:33:06] but one of the things I thought was really like I mean it was adorable that willow and Oz banged it out but like I I thought it was very funny upon watching it I'm like Amy's still on that cage yeah

[01:33:23] she saw a show yeah but that might be like one of the sweetest like tell it like you know movie tv show losing of your virginity scene it's like no we all wanted an Oz huh yeah do you want to hear it I have it sure okay Oz

[01:33:47] what could you just pretend to care about what's happening please you think I don't care I think we could be dead in two days time and you're being ironic detachment guy would it help if I panic yes it'd be swell panic is a thing people can share

[01:34:07] in times of crisis and and everything's really scary now you know and I don't know what's gonna happen and and there's all sorts of things that you're supposed to get to do after high school

[01:34:16] and I was really looking forward to doing them and and now we're probably just gonna die and I'd like to feel that maybe you would that's the kissing moment perfect that music yeah definitely not sexy music

[01:34:44] when the birds are chirping metaphorically yeah it's literally the birds and bees it is so sweet and cute and then their moment afterward when they're like she's like do you feel different

[01:34:57] I feel different and he's all like yeah everything's different it's so cute and then they get the call and they're like oh we're back on duty and they just like run out of it yeah it's it's a deal

[01:35:07] like it was good for her it was I feel like he he was good yeah I think they both had a really important experience that day yes and he was so tender with her like the acting

[01:35:20] from Seth Green and I was just like my heart is melting and I love how you know when she does say I feel different do you feel different and she immediately answers for him like of course not

[01:35:30] like you know you've done this before and he's like no like everything's different and it's a very nice moment and I will say too one of my favorite it's Ausline's happens right before the scene when she's you know they're doing research with Amy

[01:35:51] there and she says you know if we want to make ferns invisible or communicate with shrimp I've got the goods right here and he just dead pans our lives are different than other people

[01:36:04] we've all been there yeah she's like healthcare workers and lawyers I'm sure yes oh a number of times it's like I never thought I'd say that Senate's out loud it's oh it hurts because it's true

[01:36:20] it's so cute and sweet and it's it's like this little oasis so much better than Buffy's first time geez I know I mean polar opposite yeah I mean the first part of Buffy's first time was okay

[01:36:33] it it's just the aftermath was pretty bad yeah but um oh Buffy it was it was a nice moment in this otherwise pretty dark episode of me out of like sort of what we fight for and why life is worth

[01:36:50] living right there's like moments of connection and other people and love and it's I love that it's beautiful I love that I'm getting all schmaltzy thing I know things I like a little bit less well

[01:37:03] I mean I liked it because I thought it was funny but um the the red graduation gowns they they make a comment of that in the beginning of the episode and Cordelia is like saying like oh it should have been

[01:37:14] something else the having the gowns be red reminded me of the red shirts term for dispensable characters from Star Trek oh yes and I was like yeah accurate yeah yeah lots and lots of rich

[01:37:29] lots of semen fodder gonna be wearing those red robes also I have to agree maroon is just I know I think both like I think all three times I've had a graduation ceremony it was just black

[01:37:45] robes our our high school was forest green and we had forest green robes but for college and law school it was black man those law school robes those are fun yeah those like yeah the

[01:38:01] doctoral robes are insane yeah yeah my high school was a navy polyester fabric and yeah I I've been gosh I can't believe I have four four degrees I was like going through it I was just like how many

[01:38:18] of these have I worn it's just a lot of student debt um but yeah it was like navy and then yeah another navy and then finally the graduate schools were black but yeah green sounds interesting yeah that's

[01:38:37] that's a choice because I mean forest green is a good color for me so I was okay with it very nice yeah this is fine my high school might have been maroon white now that I think about it but it's

[01:38:48] it's kind of awesome that I don't remember it very well I'm fine with that yeah I remember being incredibly sunburned at my high school graduation yeah how much it hurt yeah yeah yeah

[01:39:02] so uh you and I Kara had the same thoughts for for graduation of so my favorite story is 2003 I wanted to be tanned even though I'm never tanned for for the pictures for graduation so I went to a

[01:39:19] tanning salon in south Florida and so that just gives you an idea of the the legal ramifications of regulating stuff yeah and so I of course was snow white going into there and they set me up in a

[01:39:34] tanning bed the day before um and they said okay we haven't hooked it up like properly so just keep an eye on the time yourself oh and I was like okay cool yeah um I remember laying down and listening to

[01:39:50] my cd of m&m and then sort of fading out you know drifting off and something and then I realized it was on track 10 and I was like that that's a lot of song for I was only supposed to be in here for

[01:40:02] like 15 minutes because I was very pale so I get up and I leave and I everyone who's done this knows and sounds like Kara you were there too it doesn't hurt right away I worked at a tanning

[01:40:13] salon unfortunately so so so you know you know you know the uh the end result I remember we were in rehearsal the day before and so I you know I went I did the tanning and and I came back and all of a

[01:40:28] sudden my ass started to it because this I'm having flashbacks right now because I had gone in wearing a g-string because 18 year old made as you do oh you know the whale tail time so fashion

[01:40:49] but I was sitting there and my ass started to itch and I was like that's odd just not really like what it like what am I sitting in and so then I was like what in the world so

[01:41:03] I went to the bathroom and looked at it and it was starting to turn purple oh and so I was like oh no yeah so oh oh no um it was so badly burned I didn't blister um so it was a purple like it went past

[01:41:21] red into purple and I was like oh no um and then I had been volunteering at at a hospital after school so we went through the rehearsal my ass start went from itching to burning um and so like I remember

[01:41:34] going up to the nurses this is why I always love nurses they they always looked after me when I volunteer there and I was like uh so my my ass itches and they're like then wipe better I was like no no no no

[01:41:50] yeah I was like no that you don't understand yeah it was like that would make more sense no um I I went to a tanning bed and so like one of the female nurses was like let's go into the

[01:42:01] supply room and it'll show me and like I showed her and similar to you Penny she goes oh and I was like mm-hmm so she brought in one of the attendings I mean at this point it was just like the show

[01:42:11] and tell and um and they were like oh boy and I was like so what should I do and they're like so you I can't remember anymore it's it's not a third degree burn I believe it was a first

[01:42:22] degree burn because it wasn't like the really serious ones but they're like yeah no that's a first degree burn um you're gonna need to put cold compresses on that three times a day and

[01:42:32] we'll give you some burn cream yeah so again 2003 they couldn't do this nowadays for volunteers I'd have to go to a doctor so yeah that that's what I did I I could not sit um like on it very well

[01:42:44] and uh yeah that that was my experience oh and it never peeled the purple turned to red and just soaked into my skin like well that's not great so no tanning bats no tanning bats anyone I've

[01:42:59] never I've never gone to any kind of tanning place I'm so pale I like burst yeah flames in the sun so I've had some epic sunburns and um I uh I am now like a sunscreen parasol shade maniac yep yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah I am now

[01:43:26] you saw my prom pictures I was a certain shade of orange yeah you sure were in high school you know like it was you know they talk about now like eyebrow blindness I 100% had

[01:43:39] tan blindness yeah so after that I have not you know it's like I'm not going back yeah good for you I already did damage I'm sure same same I I look like I'm a vampire now when I go out I'm very

[01:43:53] much anti-sun at this point uh I don't know if that's gonna make a big difference but I another quick funny story from from our graduation because I was like oh we're doing graduation episode

[01:44:03] we were well my my ass was burning uh the next day we were sitting out in the Florida heat because of course you would for Florida graduation yeah no it's not smart everyone was dying um

[01:44:14] and we had our our principal give us this I'm sure it was a delightful speech but like she she she had a way of speaking so when she was telling us this story about a cracked pot oh

[01:44:31] the ED wasn't going over the sound system so all of us kept hearing was crackpot and we're like I don't know if you could say even in 2003 or like no that doesn't sound right

[01:44:44] yeah and so but she was just telling this story and it sounded like this I'm sure it was supposed to be inspirational or a bunch of high schoolers and she's like and then the crack pot said

[01:44:54] I can't work today and I can't we're like oh no we're all laughing at this like you know because teenagers look at each other and you start laughing and it's just like you could tell

[01:45:07] like she didn't understand why we were laughing and the teachers behind her couldn't understand it we were like and then afterwards it's like oh a cracked pot okay yeah no that that's not what we

[01:45:22] thought you were saying and we thought it was an interesting story to lead with on graduation I'm a valid Victorian who was one of my good friends and is now a professor at MIT

[01:45:33] quoted a Jenna Jamison in his speech that's amazing he said it all the time like as a joke and you can tell like when he said it looking around at the people who recognized it I was like oh

[01:45:50] this is not good yeah that's amazing high schoolers high schoolers are super fun yeah I mean yeah high schoolers porn yeah whatever it tracks um good for him for not taking it so seriously

[01:46:11] yeah he's brilliant he's perfect that's one of those things I was like he worked it in absolutely perfectly and none of those like none of the adults were going to be like hey I know where

[01:46:23] that's from well yeah like I mean you know it's just kind of like if you know you know kind of like the porn hub music that plays like if you know you know it's like there's no way to bring

[01:46:35] it up I mean I always just kind of looking back on how we were at our like junior and senior problems and everything of like the teachers just must must have such unique perspectives on their students

[01:46:47] especially around that time because it would be like we'd be these students and then you'd go to the dances having to chaperone and we'd just be booty dancing on the dance floor yeah like it

[01:46:55] would just like all of a sudden these children are grinding up against each other like it's nothing to the window to the wall to this one why not I'm a little older than you guys so for us it was called dirty dancing

[01:47:16] right and it was it was very much in imitation of the dancing scene in that movie and that was like oh that's so nice yeah I'm like more wholesome like yeah so much more wholesome like my high

[01:47:32] school years were kind of pre-hip hop oh you guys missed out yeah we did I mean also I lived in New Hampshire so it the answer is the land of perpetual classic rock so like our high school dances were

[01:47:46] a lot of like Led Zeppelin and Aerosmith nice um yeah a lot of hair bands a lot of hair and metal Nelly was ours too no Nelly for us no it was like so much Nelly you know there was like hot for teacher

[01:48:01] was like one of the big like scandalous songs um oh my gosh hot for teacher we're not gonna take it that was always a hit at at school I love that song it wasn't me it's like Juvenile Beastie Boys though

[01:48:14] Beastie Boys yeah we had the Beastie Boys that is nice fight for your right speaking of retro the Percy callback I thought was very cute I like that the writers brought him full circle I was like

[01:48:27] oh yeah oh I know and he was like you know telling like that I was being grateful that she didn't beat his ass or whatever I know and the bronze and she's this close to correcting

[01:48:40] him and she's like you know what Percy that was for your own good yeah yeah it was just go with it willow yeah just roll roll with it a little piece of of behind the scenes

[01:48:56] trivia they reveal in the DVD extras that the Gavrox that the mayor is eating are made out of like twisted stretched out tootsie rolls and I hate tootsie rolls with a passion I hate them

[01:49:11] and every time I think about that in that scene I'm like I think I'd rather eat spiders what you're saying you don't want uh like a a play-doh version that tastes like it it misses chocolate yeah it looks like no thank you

[01:49:28] um it's like the lecquoise of candy flavored tootsie rolls those are those are delicious too I don't think I've even tried those it's more like taffy yeah it really is yeah I used to call tootsie

[01:49:44] rolls that like the lecquoise version of candy yeah like they're a hint of what the taste bud should be they're nasty I don't understand people that yeah I totally get it I just have um the the brief interaction with Joyce our favorite mom yeah let's

[01:50:03] visit with Joyce I know I really love her um I have her quote written down where Buffy's explaining all this and she goes Joyce goes looking back I think I should have sent you to a different

[01:50:16] school yeah that's that's cool Joyce I appreciate that I mean she'd still be the slayer but um I know just not going to school over a hell yeah the hell mouth thing but um I yeah I always love Joyce I love

[01:50:34] that she's like I'm not gonna miss your graduation and Buffy has a very moving speech about how mom I'm not you know the best student I'm not the star athlete but this is what I do better than

[01:50:46] anyone in the world yeah I can do it but I can't do it if I'm worried about you and can you imagine how hard it must have been for Joyce to like get in her car and drive out of town no that's mom

[01:50:58] sacrifice right there well and she looks so proud of Buffy by the end of that scene and it's just it's hard but Buffy is 100 right like if Joyce stays there then it's gonna up the

[01:51:13] chances of Buffy being killed trying to protect her yeah exactly which brings to mind Sander get out too willow does magic giles is a watcher like again the helpless humans around yeah well that's

[01:51:29] I don't want to get into spoilers for the next episode oh yes yes that's right we'll get there I'm glad you brought up Joyce though because I don't like to miss any opportunity to talk about

[01:51:39] how wonderful Joyce is our favorite mom best that's all I had it's a good time to move on to some pop culture references or not so pop culture although this one I think it's it's

[01:51:58] gonna be all pop culture um I'll start and I love the scene when they're talking about who's going to speak at graduation and willow guesses Siegfried Roy one of the tigers um so great and Siegfried and Roy were German-American magicians and entertainers they're best known for their

[01:52:18] use of white lions and white tigers in their acts Siegfried passed away in 2021 and Roy in 2020 not from tigers no but which one of them was attacked by one of the tigers I can't remember

[01:52:32] I think it was Roy I can't remember either yeah and for the children listening to us at this point this was before Tiger King yeah they they were the original Tiger King and slightly less problematic

[01:52:45] yeah there's a amazing i max documentary about Siegfried and Roy if you ever have the chance to see it it's unbelievable and I saw it in the theater and every like 10 minutes or so there's

[01:53:01] a moment where you're like oh they should be a couple and people in the theater kept yelling kiss well funny you say that yeah on seeing an illustration of the mayor's eventual demon form Xander quotes the famous line from

[01:53:24] the 1975 film Jaws we're going to need a bigger boat this is a rephrase of a line from Jaws the 1975 horror film about a great white shark based on the book by Peter Benchley

[01:53:37] the character of Brody upon first seeing the shark says you're gonna need a bigger boat to catch it he also quoted the movie in the episode go fish because Xander is repetitive yeah yeah kind

[01:53:52] of perfect that's like a perfect reference that yeah he finally nailed it yeah spot on Xander also paraphrases private Hudson from the 1986 classic film aliens saying that he was getting short four more weeks and out mm-hmm when when Buffy first arrives at Faith's apartment she is

[01:54:15] listening to a song called Sunday Mail from 1998 by rock band spectator pump and I love how she just very like quietly just presses the off button yeah baseline look at you all dressed up in big

[01:54:33] sister's clothes is a reference to the Elvis Costello song big sister's clothes Xander also says easier said than done monarchy boy which is a reference to Wesley's Britishness this time talking about the fact that his native country has a monarchy of course which is a form of government

[01:54:55] in which sovereignty is vested in a single person whose right to rule is generally hereditary and who is empowered to remain in office for life though in England's case nowadays the monarch doesn't actually rule the prime minister does true in the scene where Oz and Willow are in

[01:55:17] Willow's bedroom they talk about Amy Oz says but you got the swing and have a trail going I think she's in a good place and have a trail is the maker of environments for small pets usually hamsters

[01:55:29] or gerbils consisting of plastic tubes and toys the cage that Amy was in wasn't actually a habit trail but the tubing may have been when I rewatch this I thought he said happy trail no that's what she got to see later

[01:55:53] great thing to say to your girlfriend Oz like what the hell is he talking about and then I processed it she's got the swing I was confused for a good minute I'm gonna blame my current like health state and yeah what I know

[01:56:14] it's delightful it's delightful I was just like I'm imagining a hamster happy trail oh all right moving on to trivia you're still happy I'm sorry. Oh God. I still have it. Yeah, I'm mad. Okay, okay, I'm gonna... Okay.

[01:56:46] Oh my gosh, I don't know why that really got me. Because it's absurd. Yeah, it is absurd. Okay, okay, okay. Whew, okay. Would you be nice to the cat? Okay. So for some trivia, oh I love this one. From minute 2141, Angel comes in and slips in the hallway.

[01:57:08] Damon Boreadas did really slip and they kept it in the show. I love that. I never felt closer to Angel than I did in that moment. It's so awkward and clumsy. It's fantastic. And then Buffy's like, stealthy. Yeah. I had to watch it. Yeah. It's adorable. So relatable.

[01:57:32] Fun fact, during the original airing, the first trailer for Angel, the spinoff show, was shown. It lasted only four seconds with David Boreadas turning towards the camera and the words Angel this fall appearing. I remember that. I remember it. I remember it all. So good. So exciting.

[01:57:56] Willow comments that she'll miss Sunnydale High's soda machine, which never gives her the drink she chooses, possibly as a result of being bashed about by Buffy in the Halloween episode and Xander in the Zeppel. This is an in-joke as fans had pointed out that it actually dispenses

[01:58:12] types of soda cans that aren't amongst the choices available on the selection panel. Oh, that's amazing. That's fantastic. According to stunt coordinator Jeff Pruitt, stunt double Sophia Crawford was uncomfortable with Buffy's signature leather pants since she felt they were preventing her from kicking freely. Yeah, that makes sense.

[01:58:34] One worn those pleather versions after the show and in Florida, I can concur. I can't imagine Did leather leggings not exist yet? Nope. Well at least not in my town. That's unfortunate. Those are real easy to move around. Yes, those are a lie.

[01:58:54] They look real nice but they're a lie. That's funny. Let's see. And then in 2002, Harry Groener, I think it's Grainer, but I could be wrong. Grainer has implications for my 12 year old boy part of my brain. No, I know. My brain went there too. I'm sorry.

[01:59:20] I'll just do this. In 2002, damn it. Sorry. Sorry. We can do it. That was so cruel. Okay. I'm still going to be true. I can do it. In 2002, Harry Grainer, I was asked if he ever got recognized in his role as Buffy and he answered yes every day

[01:59:52] on the bus, the street, the stores, everywhere. It's great. Oh, this is so cute. And boy, did they love the mayor. So do I. I loved that piece of trivia. That was so adorable. Eliza Tushku is from Boston. And when Faith

[02:00:10] is telling the mayor about when she was a kid, she says she lived just outside of Boston. And this is also evident by her use of the phrase wicked gross. When the mayor says yes to eat several spiders, wicked is a commonly used slang word

[02:00:22] for very or extremely most commonly used by people from Boston and Massachusetts. And I started using it ironically and then eventually started using it sincerely and can't stop. Wicked smart. Yeah. That's lovely. In 2022, Harry Gray North said playing the mayor was one of the best experiences

[02:00:50] he has ever had in television. He admitted to feeling a little depressed when the show ended in 2003 because he quote wanted to see what happened to the kids and quote such as Buffy and Xander he would have liked to see the story continue on TV.

[02:01:08] He is not a comic book fan because the last season went through the comics. That's fair. I like that he was a fan of the show. He's like, oh no! They canceled it! I know! That's cute. This is a fun fact. Willow became the fourth Scooby Gang member

[02:01:30] to lose their virginity in the series. Oz was said to have had sex before by Willow and himself after Cordelia and that was mentioned in Bad Eggs. I'm sorry my dogs are attacking my cat right now. And then Buffy of course in Surprise and Xander in The Zepo.

[02:01:52] I hate that Xander lost his virginity debate. I know it's the one and only time I felt bad for him. I think at the time he was pretty psyched about it. He loved it! I'm like, no one deserves to be treated that way even Xander. This brings us

[02:02:12] to a very difficult question that I know you'll have a hard time answering. Does it still slay? Kara? Always. It really does. This is a great episode. It definitely does. For me, yep. Very good. I'm going to go with the last one. For me, yep. Very relevant.

[02:02:41] Just slaying and slaying. One of the most memorable two-part season finales I think of any show that I've seen. Yeah. We have just a little bit of news this week. First I wanted to mention that Shannon Doherty passed away on July 13th of this year.

[02:03:01] She was not a member of the cast of Buffy but she was famously very good friends with Sarah Michelle Geller. I'm a huge fan. I've mentioned her on this podcast before. I loved Charmed. I loved her on 90210. I loved her podcast. Let's be clear. She had just started

[02:03:21] doing a Charmed rewatch podcast with Holly Marie Colms, Brian Krause and Drew Fuller. They recorded like two or three episodes before she passed and those are going to be released. I'm just really, really sad about her passing. I think she was a remarkable person and I'll link her

[02:03:41] obituary in the show notes if people want to read it. The other piece of news is that Juliet Landau who played Drusilla has a movie that is making the festival rounds right now called A Place Among the Dead. It's won a ton of awards and it's a movie,

[02:03:59] it's a vampire movie and she made the movie making the parallel between vampires and narcissists and she has a lot of experience with narcissists because apparently both of her famous parents were narcissists, are narcissists. That tracks. That makes sense. Among other places that she's been talking about

[02:04:23] the film, she was on a podcast called Navigating Narcissism with Dr. Romani and she talks about the film, she talks about her famous parents and about dealing with narcissism and it was a really interesting conversation. I'll put a link in the show notes

[02:04:39] for that and also a link to the trailer for the movie. You can buy it on DVD or rent it or buy it on Amazon Prime. I think it's also available on Apple Movies and she mentions in the podcast that they have interest

[02:04:55] from distributors but they haven't made a deal with the theater yet. Maybe it will also come to theaters or get released on some other streaming app. I just wanted to circle around real quick about Shannon Doherty. I know there's a big overlap of Buffy fans who also

[02:05:13] watched Charmed. They were out around the same time and it's about the supernatural and I was a fan of the show and I knew that there was backstage drama but honestly I never really knew that. I want to call back to Shannon Doherty's podcast, let's be clear

[02:05:31] and there's episodes that came out in December 11th and December 18th of 2023 where she and Holly Marie Combs talk more about what happened behind the scenes and I found it fascinating when I saw her at her, I believe her last Comic Con performance

[02:05:51] in Mega Con this past February and they had brought it up and she was delightful and wonderful and very down to earth and it was just really powerful to see them all united on stage, her, Holly Marie Combs and Rose McGowan and then just sort of reinforcing their

[02:06:11] point of view on what happened and I just found it very interesting so if you're a fan of Charmed or if you're a fan of Shannon Doherty I highly recommend listening to those two episodes on her podcast because they're pretty fantastic to

[02:06:25] the viewer to get an idea of what went on behind the show that we at least for me I hold very high in my heart. Yeah, I love Charmed. I've been rewatching it since she passed and just marveling at how charismatic she is on screen and magnetic

[02:06:43] and beautiful, so beautiful. Yeah and also I love that she's still a rock star she had in her will a list of people she did not want at her funeral I know. I was like, no, what? Respect. That is amazing. Legendary, right?

[02:06:59] I want to do the same thing. So amazing. Totally putting that in my will. Yes, definitely iconic definitely Buffyverse iconic I love it. Let's head on over to the bronze and have a blooming onion and hear from some of our listeners Bronze things things of bronze

[02:07:21] we got Jolene's feedback about the prom a little bit too late for that episode so we're going to read it now we got an email from Jolene about the prom episode but we got it a little bit too late to include in our podcast

[02:07:35] so we're going to read it now. Kara? Okay she said hey hopefully this has made it to you in time it's always in time technically because you know and she said every time I watch this episode I wonder if this will be the time that I

[02:07:51] don't cry at least twice usually three times that time has yet to come we're right there with you we're right there with you even though Buffy and Angel breaking up was the right thing to do only Joyce would have had the balls to walk into the crypt

[02:08:05] of a 243 year old vampire and tell him to finish with her daughter that was pretty policy she said it still breaks my heart seeing Buffy sob on Willow's knee that's a sad sad scene the whole scene when he's breaking up with her is so well done

[02:08:21] you can see just how broken they both are by it it must have been hard for them personally too as they knew as actors that it really was the end this time with Angel spin-off coming and if you remember we talked about it last episode

[02:08:35] Sarah Michelle Geller was crying so hard after this scene that they had to take like a 20 25 minute break they had to close the set kind of yeah compose herself which understandable and she also said I love how we start to see more of Cordelia's

[02:08:51] character progression in this one she's obviously embarrassed with what's happened with her dad and the fact she's having to work but at least she is willing to work to get what she wants Xander keeping it quiet for her and then buying the dress for her is probably

[02:09:05] his best moment ever for me I like how by the end you would choose to yeah that was a huge Xander moment yeah I agree with you Jolene and Kara that was probably his best moment in the series oh sweet he didn't want any credit

[02:09:21] he just wanted her to have a nice prom and it wasn't even someone that you know he was trying to get something from exactly right it's pure giving was beautiful Anya's back I have witnessed a millennium of treachery and oppression from the males of this

[02:09:39] species and I have nothing for nothing but contempt for the whole abidinous lot of them why are you talking to me I don't have a date for the prom laughing emojis that is great I'm using hashtag modern dating oh it's so good the hellhound

[02:09:59] costumes are almost as terrible as Oz's werewolf costume laughing emojis I agree I think it's really clever how you start off thinking they're going to play a bigger part in the episode but it turns out to be the lesser story before Buffy has her long awaited and wanted

[02:10:17] perfect high school moment class protector crying emojis I know I cry every time I watch that scene it's like a little bit of wish fulfillment too honestly I sob like a baby every time I see that scene her face willow's face applause from her classmates Jonathan's speech

[02:10:39] when you see how proud Giles is of her the whole thing I can't cope with it it's one of the best scenes in the whole seven seasons of Buffy and then Giles every now and then people surprise you before he spots angel and turns her around

[02:10:55] my heart crying emojis and the song they used is just perfection anyway I'll go now before I make myself cry very excited for graduation day have a great weekend everyone Jolene I love that Jolene I had posted a couple of pictures of my high school yearbook

[02:11:17] and Jolene wrote back that they don't have yearbooks in England either and that blew my mind yeah I didn't realize we also heard from Becky and she says I just finished the last episode y'all are so good I can't wait to join you for an episode

[02:11:35] so Becky is going to guess what us in season 4 I'm going to save most of my feedback for part 2 but here's a couple of quotes I thought were great Anya when I think something could happen to you it feels bad inside like I might vomit

[02:11:49] Fandor welcome to the world of romance Anya it's horrible no wonder I used to get so much work and then also Willow talking about harmony I'm going to miss her Willow she picked on me for 10 years back to a stretch and Becky attached a graduation photo

[02:12:09] and her senior cheerleading photo and says my hair lol so we are going to post that on our facebook page so you guys can all check that out oh my gosh I love that I love that alright that's the end of the main section of the podcast

[02:12:25] and you should stay tuned for the watchers diaries if you want to hear the spoilery discussion if you'd like to join the conversation you can find all of our contact information at podcastica.com and in the show notes for each episode also at podcastica.com

[02:12:43] you'll find links to our social media pages and all our other shows what are you guys listening to these days house of the dragon coverage like crazy so good dragon cast is so good getting ready for the cast of the ring yeah that's coming back for that

[02:13:03] I'm finally caught up the Sandman podcast finishing up the dead boy detectives I thought they did such an amazing job oh god that's in my backlog I haven't gotten to dead boy detectives yet it's so good and the adrenaline podcast just did a really good horror film

[02:13:23] for those of us horror aficionados they covered their review of In a Violent Nature which I personally really enjoyed it's a callback to old school slasher and it's from the point of view of the old school slasher character like if you were following Jason Borges point of view

[02:13:41] so I found it fantastic and their review is excellent that's good to know awesome and if you like what we do give us a five star rating a review or a like follow and subscribe next time we'll be covering season 3 episode 22 graduation day part 2

[02:13:59] I'm so excited and in honor of the next episode we'll be sharing our own graduation photos along with some of our previous guest hosts and any of you who send yours in and let us know that we can share thanks everyone and what's her saga she's freaking

[02:14:19] about what the mayor is gonna kill us all during graduation I love Kordy alright that's the end of the non-spoiler section if you want to avoid the spoilers this is when you should stop listening but if you want to hear the spoilers stay tuned

[02:14:45] alright that was enough time for you to stop onto the watchers diaries and spoiler it's too bad we can't sneak a look at the watcher diaries I'm sure it's full of fun facts to know and tell yeah that's too bad that stuff is private

[02:15:05] also Giles keeps them in his office in his personal files most importantly it would be wrong even though Zander has no powers he comes in handy in the next episode with his military weird training that he absorbed great that is the single most wrong out plot line

[02:15:33] they got so much from him being a soldier one hall it's the only thing that's special about Zander they had to ride it to the horse to home I love that though the fact that Zander does not you know, he doesn't have any real special capabilities

[02:15:57] but he steps up yeah he does he's plenty brave he's always willing to throw himself in there it's just that he's kind of dope about it most of the time and very entitled but in the next episode he actually really does like organize and

[02:16:19] lead the charge and all that stuff so it's good and I do love how kill it with fire is basically completely applicable about killing this demon the mayor turns into and the fact that they learn about it from faith's murdering of Professor Worth and I'm just

[02:16:45] looking out that after the ascension of volcano is what actually killed a demon in pure form and I just I love how they go about killing it like it's just so good it's fantastic when Ruffy makes that comment about what does she say like 1000 pounds of hot

[02:17:07] lava or something like that it's like well it reminds me a lot of the season 2 arc of how do you destroy that that demon that sucked out humanity oh yeah no weapon forged yeah and it was like no weapon forged at that time that was awesome

[02:17:29] that's a great one that was then this is now they just keep up in the ante on how to kill the baddies every season finale and seeing Harmony pop up I got so excited I freaking love Harmony so funny and Willow saying

[02:17:51] I'm gonna miss her I'm just like just wait I know show me that I can season 4 yeah she will yeah no she's so great and if she was like barely 18 in season 4 she would probably be young probably the only person who was actually a high schooler

[02:18:11] when this was being filmed yeah she's really young she was a child actress she was in the first Adams family or the second Adams family movie with Christina Ricci where she's at camp they like put an apple in her mouth and tired oh my gosh that was her

[02:18:33] yeah when they're like oh we need someone and she's like I will and then Christina Ricci goes your whole life oh my gosh so funny wow I had no idea oh my gosh she also guest stars on an episode of Supernatural

[02:18:51] where she gets her to do a vampire it's so funny they're so great all the Buffy stars that went onto Supernatural just had iconic roles I love all the other amias I well I do like, I mean this is in graduation part 2

[02:19:13] I do like how this leads into that we will be revisiting that loft yeah I do like the continuation of the scene even if it's just in Buffy's brain yeah the conversation she has with Faith is really interesting and everything that happens at the hospital is fascinating

[02:19:31] I love the hospital scenes so good and then I mean graduation part 2 there's so much good stuff that happens in it with the like the actual fight scene and then yeah I mean I don't want to spoil what we're going to talk about next time

[02:19:49] but like oh my god I am so excited for that episode so good off okay I'm trying to think yeah it's gone yeah that's alright we'll get it next time alright that is the complete end of our show everybody thank you so much for listening and until

[02:20:09] next time I am Penny and I'm Sam and I'm Kara keep playing Kara it's your turn now son of a bitch okay I know I don't know what it is no no no like the way my brain locked off I can't even explain it

[02:20:41] I'm looking right at it alright whoo and if you like what nope okay I'm starting over alright I think we should do the Cordelia Xander conversation you're going to go to fifth period which is also I mean senioritis skipping yeah exactly it's hilarious we've got to

[02:21:34] talk about the classroom and Xander playing hangman oh my gosh they always choose E yeah