39: “City of” (Angel S1E1)

[00:00:00] Hmm?

[00:00:01] Ah!

[00:00:03] Hmm.

[00:00:04] Oh, why me?

[00:00:07] Well, because you got potential.

[00:00:08] And the balance sheet ain't exactly in your favor yet.

[00:00:11] Why you?

[00:00:15] We all got something to atone for.

[00:00:17] Hello everybody, welcome to Angel, a still slaying Buffy-verse podcast.

[00:00:45] I'm Jim.

[00:00:46] And I'm Penny.

[00:00:47] And I'm Cara.

[00:00:48] This episode, we're going to be discussing Season 1, Episode 1 of Angel, City of, directed

[00:00:55] by JW, and written by JW and David Greenblatt and Janine Renshaw.

[00:01:01] The original air date on this one is October 5th of 1999.

[00:01:07] 25 years ago.

[00:01:10] Some alternate, the alternate titles for, I mean, it's the first episode of Angel, so

[00:01:16] I was hoping for something grand, but the alternate titles were kind of lame.

[00:01:20] We have, um, welcome to Los Angeles in French and in Brazil.

[00:01:26] Light and shadow in Germany.

[00:01:28] My favorite, Los Angeles in Italian.

[00:01:31] And the city of vampires in Latin American, Spanish, and then in Turkish we had New City.

[00:01:37] Nothing too exciting there.

[00:01:42] Wow.

[00:01:42] Which makes me sad.

[00:01:44] No fun!

[00:01:44] Because we have this whole new, we actually can call it a Buffy-verse now because we have

[00:01:50] Yeah, we've expanded.

[00:01:51] A second series that, uh, and just kind of remembering back in time.

[00:01:56] Well, first of all, I get to say this since I'm hosting and I've been so excited to do Angel

[00:02:00] for about a year now.

[00:02:02] Welcome, Petty!

[00:02:03] And welcome, Kara, to Angel!

[00:02:06] Woo!

[00:02:07] Woohoo!

[00:02:08] Yay!

[00:02:08] We're so excited to be here.

[00:02:10] Finally.

[00:02:10] So we, we, we were gonna do flashbacks and, and stuff like that, but we realized that the

[00:02:15] episode came out the exact same night as the Freshmen.

[00:02:18] So all of those would be the same.

[00:02:20] So over the next, the coming weeks and months, we will start to cultivate and create whatever

[00:02:26] the beginning turns into for Angel.

[00:02:28] But for this episode, going back in time, those 25 years, which is crazy for me to say

[00:02:34] because it's not even half my life.

[00:02:36] Going back 25 years, which all of us in this room can't say, but going back 25 years, what was,

[00:02:43] what were your thoughts over that summer and heading into this, knowing that we were getting

[00:02:50] a second series connected to Buffy?

[00:02:56] Nonstop enthusiasm.

[00:02:58] Um, I loved Buffy so much.

[00:03:01] And my only complaint about Buffy was that it was one hour a week and 22 weeks out of the

[00:03:07] year.

[00:03:08] And I just wanted more.

[00:03:09] So the idea that we were going to get a whole other show in this universe was just, I was

[00:03:16] so enthusiastic about it.

[00:03:17] I was so excited about it.

[00:03:19] I was so on board.

[00:03:21] Oh yeah.

[00:03:22] And I mean, during this time, the summer leading up to season four of Buffy and.

[00:03:27] This is where, this is where you say something that makes me want to cry.

[00:03:31] I was in between my fifth grade year.

[00:03:35] There it is.

[00:03:36] There it is.

[00:03:36] So I remember super excited about Angel because when I love Buffy and I thought Angel was very

[00:03:45] cute.

[00:03:45] So I think that was the extent of my excitement at that time.

[00:03:50] But after rewatching in college and a few times as an adult, I found a whole new appreciation for Angel.

[00:03:59] And I'm super happy to be revisiting it again.

[00:04:03] I'm also very.

[00:04:04] Uh, sick.

[00:04:05] I should warn you.

[00:04:06] So if I sound.

[00:04:08] And stuffed up, it's because I am.

[00:04:10] And I'm hoping I can avoid coughing, but please forgive me.

[00:04:16] Uh, I'm just grateful that you are joining us, even though you clearly don't feel a hundred percent.

[00:04:22] Oh, this helps.

[00:04:24] It's been so long since the three of us have done a podcast together.

[00:04:26] I'm very excited about this.

[00:04:28] I mean, Penny, you and I have been podcasting like straight through the like hiatus.

[00:04:32] Yeah.

[00:04:32] It's good to have all three of us back.

[00:04:34] Once again.

[00:04:35] Oh, for anybody who doesn't know what Jim's talking about.

[00:04:38] Uh, Jim and I covered the absolutely brilliant.

[00:04:42] MCU slash Disney show Agatha all along on Disney plus.

[00:04:47] And it's on the podcastica Marvel TV cast feed.

[00:04:52] And we had.

[00:04:53] Such a good time doing it.

[00:04:55] And the show was so much better than we expected.

[00:04:59] And, uh, the podcast was.

[00:05:04] More intense than I expected.

[00:05:06] There was a lot of emotion that ended up happening there.

[00:05:09] And, um, I'm really crossing my fingers that they actually do an Agatha second season because I want to get the gang back together and cover that as well.

[00:05:19] Well, I think that.

[00:05:21] Fantastic job covering that show.

[00:05:23] Catherine Han, Catherine Han getting a like dipping her toes into award season, I think is probably going to awaken.

[00:05:31] Um, this new like version of the, of Marvel, the MCU.

[00:05:36] So hopefully, hopefully she'll play a bigger role in it.

[00:05:38] I, that was so much fun.

[00:05:40] Yeah.

[00:05:40] I, for some reason, when I went into that, that was sort of like, okay, we're going to stop doing Buffy for a while.

[00:05:45] We're going to start doing Agatha.

[00:05:47] And in my head, I was like, oh, these will be like an hour and 15 minute podcast.

[00:05:51] This will be nice.

[00:05:52] The show will be like 26 minutes long.

[00:05:55] It will not hit in any sort of way other than being fun.

[00:05:57] And I was a little worried that it wasn't going to be good.

[00:05:59] And it turned out that it was holy cow.

[00:06:02] I mean, and, and it just grew upon each other.

[00:06:04] That was so much fun.

[00:06:06] Uh, hopefully we can pull in some of those listeners, um, into this, especially since Angel is starting.

[00:06:11] So if you're listening to this for the first time, Kara and Penny started doing still slaying a couple of years ago.

[00:06:18] Uh, you could go back and, um, listen to that.

[00:06:21] Um, they did kind of a partial season one and then dive right into season two and three.

[00:06:25] Uh, so, and you know, I'm in there and there's a bunch of other amazing podcasts, good guest hosts in there too.

[00:06:31] And, uh, now we've got kind of a solid four plus guests hosts that are going to be joining us for all of these episodes as we head forward.

[00:06:38] So going back in time, I remember thinking that.

[00:06:41] That's.

[00:06:43] Angel leaving Buffy was going to be a gap, especially since, uh, the, the fill, the fill in for that was, was kind of an unknown at the time.

[00:06:54] Uh, Mark Lucas, who you guys talked about, um, and, and, and the freshmen who may make kind of a brief appearance there, uh, someone that, uh, actually grew up in my hometown.

[00:07:02] So I know him a little bit, but we'll get into that some other time, but I could not imagine that someone that I grew up with.

[00:07:08] But filling David Boreanaz is his role.

[00:07:10] Anyways, we'll get, we'll get into that at a different time.

[00:07:12] I do want to talk before we get into the show itself, Penny, you mentioned something off air a few days ago, uh, that I just have to bring up because it's, it's very true.

[00:07:21] And I think it's important for this series because we do get to see more sides of, of Angelus, of Angel, aside from all of the sides that Boreanaz gave us and, and, and Buffy.

[00:07:31] And he really got that beefy part where he got to play two different characters in reality.

[00:07:36] You mentioned like how intensely good looking he was kind of in a, in a, in a conversation that we were having.

[00:07:42] And I bring that up because he has always been this super unconventionally good looking.

[00:07:50] There's conventional good.

[00:07:51] There's conventional good.

[00:07:51] I mean, you know, David Boreanaz, I know you listen to this, so please don't take this the wrong way, but I, he just has a look to him that is extremely unique.

[00:08:00] If there's one thing that they shed light on in this episode, it's that they give many sides to David Boreanaz.

[00:08:07] All right. I just have to do this because we're talking about how good looking David Boreanaz is.

[00:08:12] And what I actually, what I texted was, Oh, I'm watching Angel and David Boreanaz is so handsome.

[00:08:19] It's ridiculous.

[00:08:20] And he really, cause he's got the square jaw and he's tall.

[00:08:24] He's got the broad shoulders, but then you're right that he has like, it's, it's a symmetrical face, but it's, it's, there's something unusual about his face that makes him memorable.

[00:08:35] And, um,

[00:08:36] It's perfectly flawed is always the, the kind of the phrase that comes.

[00:08:40] There's, it's not a perfect face, but it is a perfect face at the same time.

[00:08:43] Again, I really want to meet you someday.

[00:08:45] David Boreanaz.

[00:08:46] And if you remember me, like, please.

[00:08:48] Yeah.

[00:08:49] We all think you're very beautiful.

[00:08:51] Um, we are not the only ones who have noticed this.

[00:08:55] Yep.

[00:09:00] I love how quickly this show makes the city of LA, basically a character.

[00:09:31] There are so many just like stereotypical LA things that are just beat by beat by beat.

[00:09:39] And it does a very good job.

[00:09:40] The Hollywood party that is basically just this woman.

[00:09:45] Margo seems to have a job where she.

[00:09:48] Like collects pretty girls for Russell to pick from that seems to be her entire existence besides booze and drugs.

[00:09:55] Right.

[00:09:55] It reminded me, this is so nerdy of twilight and the Volturi, how they always have this one beautiful human woman kind of cultivating this pack of tourists for them.

[00:10:07] Yeah.

[00:10:08] To bring in.

[00:10:08] That's not in the movies.

[00:10:10] Well, it's sort of alluded to in the movies, but they go into it more in the, in the books about how they, they collect tourists to kill with this, using this like beautiful bait woman, which is so gross.

[00:10:20] Yep.

[00:10:20] And, uh, it's the same thing as party.

[00:10:23] Like that's why Margo does the videotapes is to send them to Russell so he can be like, I'll take one of them.

[00:10:28] You're a beautiful, beautiful man.

[00:10:31] You're an actor.

[00:10:33] No.

[00:10:33] That wasn't a question.

[00:10:35] I'm Oliver.

[00:10:36] Ask anyone about Oliver.

[00:10:38] They'll tell you I'm a fierce animal.

[00:10:40] I'm your manager as soon as you call.

[00:10:42] And even the cosmos.

[00:10:44] Not an actor.

[00:10:45] Funny.

[00:10:45] I like the humor.

[00:10:46] I like the whole thing.

[00:10:48] Call me.

[00:10:49] This isn't a come on.

[00:10:50] I'm in a very serious relationship with the landscape architect.

[00:10:53] And JW allegedly right, right on set, which we can see in this script that disgusting when they're talking about Cordy at the end of the episode.

[00:11:03] Oh, and it's all.

[00:11:06] And, um, Doyle.

[00:11:10] Yeah.

[00:11:11] She's a stiffener.

[00:11:11] And I was like, wait, what?

[00:11:13] That is so.

[00:11:16] I, I, oh, but, but I think it's funny because it's Doyle either.

[00:11:22] Yeah.

[00:11:23] That's definitely, um, he's a stand in.

[00:11:26] He's the JW stand in on this show.

[00:11:29] Yeah.

[00:11:29] So I, I, I, cause I couldn't quite figure her part out until I watched it, I think the second or third time.

[00:11:35] And, and I was watching her video Cordy.

[00:11:38] And then we see at the end, um, he's watching a video of Tina and Cordy shows up and he's like kind of wistfully like when we, when we get introduced to Lindsay for the first time.

[00:11:51] Uh, we, we see him watching this video and we see Cordy and I'm like, Oh gosh, she's making these videos.

[00:11:57] She's his, she just gets it.

[00:11:59] That's her job.

[00:12:01] She's implicitly involved.

[00:12:02] Yep.

[00:12:03] Pretty girls.

[00:12:03] And then, and she probably, that's how she affords that nice apartment.

[00:12:08] Mm-hmm.

[00:12:08] That's how she throws these connected people, Hollywood parties because Russell bankrolls her because she's his like fisher.

[00:12:17] Yeah.

[00:12:17] Yeah.

[00:12:18] Or whatever.

[00:12:18] I don't know what the word is for that person.

[00:12:20] Thank God.

[00:12:20] Cause I've never been in that position, but, um, it seems to me that that is the setup is that like Russell has found someone and she's so grossed out by herself that she's like using drugs and booze to cope with it.

[00:12:34] But, but you know, there are many like small comments throughout the episode of people talking about like, that's this town.

[00:12:43] That's how LA is.

[00:12:45] That's this industry.

[00:12:46] And it's funny.

[00:12:48] Uh, people in the entertainment industry love to talk about the entertainment industry and they love to think that problems within the entertainment industry are unique to it.

[00:12:58] And I got to tell you, this stuff happens in other industries as well.

[00:13:02] Wherever there is money, there are people who are using that money to do gross things.

[00:13:06] It's just that because of the way that entertainment works, where there's lots of people who are not employees who are trying to, to get jobs, that there's like, there's a lot of young exploitable people who don't have any system around them to protect them, who are vulnerable to this kind of predation.

[00:13:27] Oh, I mean, I mean, you look at education, for example, where you have, um, patriarchal system of male administrators and young female teachers where you have, have had in the past similar situations like that.

[00:13:43] The sad part about it is in this series really.

[00:13:48] And in this episode specifically, I think that it's, it's, it's put in there on purpose, the kind of the, the, the plasticness of Hollywood.

[00:13:56] But I think that undercurrent it's, it's just part of who Joss Whedon is.

[00:14:02] I, I don't, I don't, I think part of its parody and I think part of it is just his actual personality seeping in.

[00:14:10] Yeah.

[00:14:11] Yeah.

[00:14:11] I think he's one of those guys who tells himself that because he's not like an actual, uh, what's the word we're supposed to use now?

[00:14:20] Grapist.

[00:14:22] Yeah.

[00:14:22] That his, his like gross behavior is okay.

[00:14:26] And it's like the whole nice guy thing, right?

[00:14:28] Like by comparison to the really horrible people, I'm a good guy, but it's like, no, you're also a bad guy.

[00:14:35] Just like slightly less of a bad guy than these other people.

[00:14:37] Um, I, I, um, it's a constant struggle about artists who are talented at their art and, um, also creeps and what to do about them and what to do with their art.

[00:14:51] And it's a topic I've talked about a lot here.

[00:14:53] We talked about it on cast of the rings.

[00:14:55] Uh, we talked about it in Agatha.

[00:14:57] Like I, it comes up a lot.

[00:14:59] We talked about it last week in relation to Kevin Spacey.

[00:15:02] Like it's just, it's a, it's a problem.

[00:15:05] Um.

[00:15:05] Um.

[00:15:05] And is forever relevant.

[00:15:07] Yeah.

[00:15:07] I, it's so interesting that, that he wrote this and, and centered like a lot of plot around this power dynamic that exists in Hollywood that he's part of.

[00:15:19] Yeah.

[00:15:19] And it's just like no self-awareness, right?

[00:15:22] Cause I, I'm sure he thinks he's one of the good guys.

[00:15:25] Oh yeah.

[00:15:25] Yeah.

[00:15:25] Because he wrote a show about this feminist icon, this powerful blonde woman, like, and people still kind of exalt him and ignore all the problematic things to this day.

[00:15:39] Yeah.

[00:15:40] And he even had Doyle give that speech to Angel about how, like, if you're not connected to humans enough that you can have perspective on the world, eventually their blood is going to tempt you.

[00:15:53] And you're going to think, oh, if I eat one, I've saved like all these other people, the math works out.

[00:15:59] And I think that's the attitude of a lot of people is like, oh, but I've done so much good.

[00:16:05] I can, I can assault this one woman.

[00:16:08] It's all right.

[00:16:08] Yeah.

[00:16:09] Stay connected because if you don't, that one that's okay is going to turn you.

[00:16:16] Um, it's, it's really good advice for anybody actually.

[00:16:20] Yeah.

[00:16:21] Like, uh, angels, you know, response to losing his relationship with Buffy to leaving Sunnydale.

[00:16:27] Like we opened the episode and he is alone in a, literally in a basement alone with like nobody.

[00:16:34] And he's, you know, he's pretending to be drunk at this bar talking about how he's alone and lonely.

[00:16:38] And, and when he approaches Tina, he talks about how he's lonely and, you know, he was fully intending to live his own life in Los Angeles alone.

[00:16:49] And if Doyle hadn't pushed him and Cordelia hadn't shown up, that's what he would have done.

[00:16:55] And it would have ended badly, like really badly.

[00:16:58] Either he would have run back to Buffy or he would have gone down a dark path.

[00:17:03] I will, I have to say angel and the, the humor that develops the style of humor that develops in this show.

[00:17:13] I just love because angels humor has always been very dry and kind of subtle.

[00:17:21] And one of my favorite moments in the episode is when he's pretending to be drunk and it's focused on his face.

[00:17:29] Oh my God.

[00:17:30] Talking about Buffy.

[00:17:32] And he's like, you know, and talking about her hair and saying, you know, you know, you kind of remind me of her.

[00:17:38] And then it pans over.

[00:17:42] Yeah.

[00:17:42] And you're literally thinking in your head, oh, they literally picked things.

[00:17:46] And then he continues.

[00:17:47] It's, he keeps looking at him saying, it's your hair and he's bald and he's black.

[00:17:55] And he's looking at an angel like he is insane.

[00:18:00] And what's, what's great about how that was filmed though, is I remember watching it for the first time after many, many years, not watching it thinking.

[00:18:09] What, what are they doing?

[00:18:11] And then, and this is, this is, and this is why I think David Boreanaz doesn't get enough credit.

[00:18:16] There's that moment where Josh Holloway comes over and leans over and he's playing, he's playing that drunk and, and Josh Holloway walks away and walks away with, with the girl that kind of looks like Buffy.

[00:18:29] And then we see like the brilliance of who David Boreanaz is and why he became such a TV thing in our culture.

[00:18:38] He, he, his face just changes.

[00:18:41] And he, and immediately go, oh, he's not drunk.

[00:18:44] Yeah.

[00:18:45] And that turn.

[00:18:46] And I saw an interview that one of the best scenes in any season of angel that turn off the stool where he walks out and you know, what's about to happen.

[00:18:58] So smooth.

[00:18:58] Well, and, and David Greenblatt mentioned this and he said, he was such a fan of John Woo films that.

[00:19:06] Oh yeah.

[00:19:07] You can see it.

[00:19:08] He, this, this was a direct, like they wanted to put that in the first episode to set tone for, for how angel can turn on a dime into kind of that silent killer that we know that he is, even though he's not an jealous anymore.

[00:19:21] That's still there.

[00:19:22] The John Woo aesthetic is so perfect for the tone of the show that it's like a, it's like a darker, more adult show than Buffy.

[00:19:33] And he does, he, and there's this drama to it, right?

[00:19:37] Like angel is often in these long coats and he like, speaking of Agatha Harkness, swoops around with the coat in a way.

[00:19:45] Like the coat is its own character in a lot of the shots.

[00:19:49] It billows in the wind, it flaps, it swoops, and it's part of his whole presentation.

[00:19:55] And Agatha was like a coat swooper, like extraordinaire in Agatha Harkness.

[00:20:00] Expert.

[00:20:01] Expert.

[00:20:02] And they do a lot of, of photography from low down, looking up at angel, making him look larger than life.

[00:20:11] And, and it's so, so dramatic.

[00:20:14] Yeah.

[00:20:14] And dark.

[00:20:15] The music that goes with it.

[00:20:17] Yeah.

[00:20:17] And, and, and this is a change, like the coat was always there.

[00:20:20] It was there in Buffy, but it becomes a part of there in angel.

[00:20:25] Oh yeah.

[00:20:25] Uh, it very much.

[00:20:27] I never in, in, in Buffy, I never considered him a Batman like character, but through this whole episode.

[00:20:34] He is so Batman.

[00:20:34] I mean, when, when he pulled, when, when those stakes come out of his, his coat, I'm like, does he have a belt on where he can pull off all of his little tools?

[00:20:44] Because.

[00:20:44] Yeah.

[00:20:45] I, I really, and, and I mean, as we go down the path of angel over the seasons and, and he kind of swoops in and out of all the different ways he does things and who he does them for.

[00:20:56] Or, I mean, he definitely kind of has a Bruce Wayne kind of connectivity, uh, throughout.

[00:21:02] And I just love.

[00:21:03] Without the money.

[00:21:05] Well, well, well.

[00:21:07] Spoiler section.

[00:21:08] We can talk about how he ends up with money later down the road, but I will say too, um, immediately.

[00:21:15] And, and I, to be honest with you, I'm not a big fan of the pilot.

[00:21:18] However, the tone difference from Buffy, there's more light and there's more dark.

[00:21:24] It's very interesting too, because there's definitely more light for angel.

[00:21:29] Um, there's a couple of scenes where I'm like, why isn't he burning up here?

[00:21:33] Um, yeah.

[00:21:34] And, and I just, I, I just love that they very much made him the center of this show.

[00:21:41] There's only three main cast.

[00:21:43] Um, that's part of the show and just a complete change in tone, which, which was definitely needed because a Buffley has her zone.

[00:21:53] And now they've got this whole new zone with, with, with, with, with.

[00:21:56] Yeah.

[00:21:56] They made a distinct difference between the two, which is so smart because I think a lot of people, when they heard about the spinoff were like, oh, it'll, it'll be just like Buffy.

[00:22:06] And it's not, it's just really, really not like Buffy at all.

[00:22:10] It, it's a wider world and it's a darker world and it's a more adult world.

[00:22:15] And, um, and it shares with Buffy quippy dialogue, right?

[00:22:21] Great action scenes, a sense of sort of ironic self-awareness, but in a very different tone.

[00:22:30] I think they did an excellent job differentiating the two shows without losing the, the kernel of what we love about Buffy.

[00:22:37] For sure.

[00:22:37] I think that's why it, it's, it works so well, essentially from the beginning, because the show already knows who it is.

[00:22:45] Like the show already has its own separate identity from Buffy.

[00:22:49] And it's funny you mentioned Batman, Jim, because in that opening scene, you know, after he saves the two women and is, saves the day or night or whatever, and swoops away.

[00:23:03] The score that starts playing gives me kind of superhero Batman vibes.

[00:23:10] And I think I read somewhere that the music director was intentionally looking for something.

[00:23:16] I think they said, I'm looking for Batman meat smashing pumpkins, a la cello rock.

[00:23:22] And I was like, well, you got it.

[00:23:23] It was perfect.

[00:23:25] Like, it's just, it's so interesting.

[00:23:29] Right.

[00:23:29] But it's perfect.

[00:23:31] I was like, the vibe that that evokes is, you know, spot on.

[00:23:38] You know exactly what they're looking for and what they're talking about.

[00:23:41] And I agree with you, Jim.

[00:23:42] Like, I don't love this episode from a standpoint of entertainment, but as a pilot, I think it succeeds in doing absolutely everything a pilot is supposed to do.

[00:23:53] Yeah, it really does.

[00:23:54] And they found a way to give us the exposition of Angel's whole backstory without it being like, okay, get through the exposition part.

[00:24:07] Like, Doyle telling Angel about his life and then Angel being like, yeah, I was there.

[00:24:12] I know.

[00:24:13] That was hilarious.

[00:24:14] Because as Doyle is talking, I'm thinking, well, here's where they sandwiched in the exposition.

[00:24:20] And then having Angel call him out on it.

[00:24:22] I was like, oh, the show knows exactly what it's doing.

[00:24:25] That's so clever.

[00:24:26] Did Doyle remind either of you of Whistler?

[00:24:30] Yes.

[00:24:31] He was somebody.

[00:24:32] Okay.

[00:24:33] That's intentional.

[00:24:34] Yes.

[00:24:34] Well, so first of all, about the pilot, there is an unerred – they call it a pilot.

[00:24:40] It's five minutes and 30 seconds that Joss Whedon put together to show off the show.

[00:24:46] It's attached in the show notes.

[00:24:48] It's on YouTube, Daily Motion, any of those things that you want to see.

[00:24:51] And it's telling the story of Angel.

[00:24:54] And they literally take that pilot and give it to Doyle in this shot.

[00:24:59] Now, when we talked about Whistler back when we were doing Buffley, I did an episode where he was in.

[00:25:08] There's no – so Joss Whedon has talked about this a few times.

[00:25:12] The idea at the time was for Whistler to be Doyle.

[00:25:17] The only reason why we get this version of the demon is because a couple of things happened.

[00:25:25] And I'll talk about it later, but just a long story short is the actor who played Whistler was doing other things.

[00:25:32] And a couple of other things had happened in between point A and point B that kept them from using him.

[00:25:42] And the irony with that too is, of course – well, we'll save that for the spoiler section too.

[00:25:48] But yeah, there's a lot of kind of connectivity with why they didn't use Whistler, what ended up happening with the character in future seasons.

[00:25:58] But yeah, there was definitely similarities between the two to the point where he's speaking with his natural Irish accent.

[00:26:08] Sounds more Irish than Angel ever did.

[00:26:12] Yeah, that's true.

[00:26:15] David Boreanaz is a wonderful actor in all things except his Irish accent.

[00:26:20] So keep that in mind when you watch that little five-minute snippet because he says he's from Ireland,

[00:26:25] and I think he's trying to use the Irish accent when he's saying it.

[00:26:29] And I'm like, nope, nope.

[00:26:31] That's so Kevin Costner from Robin Hood.

[00:26:33] I cannot even –

[00:26:34] Yeah, it's David Boreanaz's one big weakness.

[00:26:38] He cannot pull off the Irish accent.

[00:26:42] So Doyle is played by Glenn Quinn, and people may recognize him.

[00:26:48] And at the time we all recognized him as Mark from Roseanne, Becky's husband.

[00:26:54] Oh my gosh, you didn't know that!

[00:26:56] Oh my god!

[00:26:56] Carrie just put that together.

[00:26:59] I was just like, who the hell is he?

[00:27:01] When he started speaking with that Irish accent, I remember thinking, are you flipping kidding me?

[00:27:09] This kid is Irish?

[00:27:11] And I'm like, he can't be Irish.

[00:27:13] And it turns out, like I saw an interview right after the series, and I'm like, oh my gosh, for all of these years.

[00:27:18] Now if you go back and watch those Roseanne episodes, you can hear the Irish accent.

[00:27:23] But I never did.

[00:27:24] I just assumed, like any stupid American, I just assumed he was American like everybody else is.

[00:27:30] Yeah, everybody's American.

[00:27:31] There was a light bulb above my head.

[00:27:33] You would have literally seen it.

[00:27:34] Oh.

[00:27:35] Yeah.

[00:27:36] That's hilarious.

[00:27:38] The woman who plays Tina is Tracy Middendorf.

[00:27:44] And I, you know, I looked up her IMDP page, and it is long and impressive with a whole bunch of shows I've never seen.

[00:27:51] Yeah.

[00:27:51] Interesting.

[00:27:52] She's had one-off, like guest star roles in shows I have seen, like Six Feet Under, The Practice, 24, she had a run on 24.

[00:28:00] But then more recently, she's been on a bunch of shows that I don't watch, like Boardwalk Empire, Body of Proof, Last Ship, Bloodline, Gone, I haven't even heard of.

[00:28:13] Scream, the TV series.

[00:28:14] She did 23 episodes of that.

[00:28:16] So she's got, you know, a whole big long career too.

[00:28:20] I just was like, have I ever seen this woman before?

[00:28:23] She's so pretty.

[00:28:25] And I just didn't recognize her.

[00:28:27] Oh, she was on the original 90210 as well.

[00:28:30] Well, she also, we'll talk about this later, but she was also, she had a three or four episode arc on Lost.

[00:28:39] Yeah.

[00:28:40] Wait, who was she on Lost?

[00:28:40] I don't remember her on Lost, though.

[00:28:43] She's one of those actresses that just you see and you immediately recognize.

[00:28:50] And she was on Bones, too?

[00:28:53] Yeah.

[00:28:53] Sorry.

[00:28:53] Yeah.

[00:28:53] No, that's what I love, the connectivity of all these, because Whistler was also on Bones at one point.

[00:29:00] There's just a lot of interconnectivity between all of these shows, especially Lost.

[00:29:04] There's so many of these actors in Angel specifically that end up in Lost.

[00:29:08] Josh Holloway.

[00:29:09] Frickin' love Josh Holloway.

[00:29:12] Oh, we might as well talk about him right now.

[00:29:14] Thank you.

[00:29:16] He was definitely unknown before Lost.

[00:29:19] Well, this was his first TV appearance.

[00:29:22] Yeah.

[00:29:22] And then, you know, Lost comes out like, what, like two years later?

[00:29:27] Actually, believe it or not, it was, this came out in October of 99.

[00:29:31] Lost came out in September of 2004.

[00:29:35] So it was five years between.

[00:29:38] Yeah.

[00:29:38] And then, to me, when I first saw him.

[00:29:40] It feels so different.

[00:29:41] Yeah.

[00:29:41] Oh.

[00:29:41] Yeah.

[00:29:42] Yeah.

[00:29:42] No.

[00:29:43] Correct.

[00:29:43] Yeah.

[00:29:43] It doesn't seem.

[00:29:45] I was actually, in my head, I thought Angel started in 2000.

[00:29:48] So when I saw that it started in the 90s, I was even surprised by that.

[00:29:52] But that just, but he was, you immediately see, because I didn't, you know, I didn't realize

[00:30:00] who this was, obviously the first time you see it, you don't know who this guy is, but

[00:30:03] you go back and you watch and you see Josh Holloway.

[00:30:06] Immediately, you see that smarm that we get to see.

[00:30:09] Yeah, that voice.

[00:30:10] And the voice.

[00:30:11] You're like, oh, I know that voice.

[00:30:13] That is Sawyer.

[00:30:14] Yeah.

[00:30:14] Oh, he was such a breakout star from Lost, right?

[00:30:18] From the beginning.

[00:30:19] Like, Lost started airing and, you know, when it first was coming out, the only real name

[00:30:24] on the show was the guy who played Jack Shepard, Matthew Fox.

[00:30:28] Matthew Fox, yeah.

[00:30:29] And I feel like Dominique Monaghan in certain groups.

[00:30:32] Yeah.

[00:30:33] As a hobbit.

[00:30:34] But probably a lot of people didn't even recognize him without his hobbit outfit.

[00:30:38] True.

[00:30:39] You know, everybody was like, oh, Matthew Fox is in this new show and it's an ensemble

[00:30:42] cast.

[00:30:43] Yeah, party of fun.

[00:30:44] And then everybody got a look at Sawyer and was like.

[00:30:48] I want that.

[00:30:50] A goner.

[00:30:51] Yeah, like everybody was.

[00:30:53] It was like, everybody was talking about Sawyer.

[00:30:55] Everybody was saying Sawyerisms.

[00:30:57] Everybody wanted Sawyer to give them an insulting nickname.

[00:31:00] Like, it was just, he was such a huge breakout star from that show.

[00:31:05] A lot of people were, really.

[00:31:06] Like, Evangeline Lilly, too.

[00:31:07] Like, nobody knew who she was before Lost.

[00:31:09] And then, like, bam, she's everywhere.

[00:31:11] She's so pretty.

[00:31:13] Yeah, she really is pretty.

[00:31:14] And never needed to shave or wax or anything on the island, which was amazing.

[00:31:20] Perfectly flawless skin.

[00:31:22] Hairless skin the entire time.

[00:31:24] Yeah.

[00:31:25] And perfect eyebrows.

[00:31:26] None of them got sunburns either, which is, like, amazing.

[00:31:29] But, yeah, Sawyer was such a huge hit.

[00:31:32] And Josh Holloway broke out from that.

[00:31:34] And then he was in, like, a Mission Impossible movie.

[00:31:36] And, like.

[00:31:37] Colony was his next series.

[00:31:39] Colony.

[00:31:39] Yep.

[00:31:40] Oh, yeah.

[00:31:40] With.

[00:31:41] Sarah Wayne Cowleys.

[00:31:41] Sarah Wayne Cowleys.

[00:31:42] Yeah.

[00:31:43] But just a heads up for Josh Holloway.

[00:31:45] Because he seems to be, whenever he comes out in anything, he stands out.

[00:31:48] Because he does have a J.J. Abrams produced TV show coming out that's been in the works for about three years now coming out on HBO called Duster, which is heavily.

[00:32:00] It's got a lot of money behind it.

[00:32:02] And it's coming out in 2025.

[00:32:04] So if you've never seen Josh Holloway in anything, first of all, go back and watch Lost.

[00:32:09] But he does have a new series coming out on Max called Duster coming up, which is awesome.

[00:32:14] A retro 70s show that he will fit perfectly into.

[00:32:18] Dang.

[00:32:18] That's going to be really fun.

[00:32:20] I love the name Duster because it makes me think that he's going to wear a bunch of long coats and swoop around like Angel.

[00:32:26] And I am all for swoopiness.

[00:32:29] I am pro-swoopy flowing coats.

[00:32:32] I love them.

[00:32:33] I enjoyed in the 90s.

[00:32:35] It's like an appendage.

[00:32:36] An extra appendage.

[00:32:38] Lots of men were wearing long coats.

[00:32:40] I liked the style.

[00:32:41] I thought it was really sort of sophisticated and cool.

[00:32:45] Ruined.

[00:32:46] Anyway, I won't talk about that.

[00:32:48] I won't.

[00:32:49] So yeah, Angel at the bar and then he saves those women.

[00:32:54] And then it's so interesting how he's like, get away from me.

[00:32:56] And I'm like, you know, like three weeks ago when you were in Sunnydale, you would have been able to stake a couple of vampires without turning into a vampire yourself and having to like send people away because they were bleeding.

[00:33:08] Like we just saw you be fine during that whole battle.

[00:33:12] He lost that human connection.

[00:33:13] So fast.

[00:33:14] Fast.

[00:33:14] Yeah, they sort of had him take a step back.

[00:33:16] I was like, all right, man.

[00:33:18] But it's worth it to have the cool like symmetrical staking with the wrist sheath action shot.

[00:33:27] It's like he made his own little Wolverine claws almost.

[00:33:31] It was so cool.

[00:33:34] And then we move into the opening credits and it's got, first of all, the music that we've talked about.

[00:33:40] But then the scenes that are from the first several episodes of Angel montaged together, there's a lot of great action, swoopy drama, darkness stuff mixed into the credits that I never get tired of.

[00:33:58] There's like jumps out of windows and like, I love when he just steps off that one roof.

[00:34:03] Yeah.

[00:34:04] I never get tired of the reminders of his vampire strength.

[00:34:07] I mean, if you watch this episode and decide you're never going to watch another episode again, first off, keep listening to the podcast.

[00:34:14] But second off, the theme of this show so sets the tone.

[00:34:21] It's so perfect.

[00:34:22] I can't imagine a better theme.

[00:34:24] And I love the story behind it.

[00:34:27] But they keep kind of the elements of that montage together for the whole series, adding little bits and pieces here as new characters are added to the show.

[00:34:36] And it's just so it does set the tone for what this series really is.

[00:34:42] I mean, it really does.

[00:34:45] I mean, you could almost use it as the pre-pilot because it does tell the story of who Angel is and just in a great way.

[00:34:54] And there's no trust me.

[00:34:56] There's no music like it.

[00:34:57] We're hunting.

[00:34:58] We're trying to find music like it.

[00:35:01] There's no music like it.

[00:35:02] Not yet.

[00:35:03] We'll find something.

[00:35:05] We'll see you soon, SoundCloud.

[00:35:06] But not yet.

[00:35:07] I know.

[00:35:07] I think the intro itself does a really good job of keeping this idea of Los Angeles, the city, as a character.

[00:35:16] Because it immediately sets up this darker, grungier vibe than Buffy.

[00:35:24] It's not as upbeat.

[00:35:25] It's much more dramatic, which is interesting considering Sunnydale is literally on top of a hellmouth.

[00:35:31] But I think it's very poignant and intentional.

[00:35:35] Buffy can go out in the daylight, right?

[00:35:37] So with Angel, most of the show takes place at night.

[00:35:43] And it has to be darker.

[00:35:46] And it's a bigger city, right?

[00:35:48] So the city itself is grungier.

[00:35:51] It's more diverse.

[00:35:52] In this show, we start to get more and more characters of color.

[00:35:56] Yay!

[00:35:57] Yeah, finally.

[00:35:59] And we get to see more types of environments where things are happening.

[00:36:03] It's not just like outdoors and high school, right?

[00:36:06] Like the evil in Los Angeles is integrated into city life.

[00:36:13] And so Angel gets to interact with different industries and stores and people in entertainment.

[00:36:22] A law firm, which is going to be so fun this whole time to talk about the law firm.

[00:36:28] I don't think it was at all unintentional that this was in Los Angeles in the late 90s.

[00:36:34] Because we see some of the footage is directly from Skid Row.

[00:36:39] And some of the action that happens is from that same area.

[00:36:43] So I thought it'd be fun to look up what the murder rate was in Los Angeles.

[00:36:50] Yay!

[00:36:50] That does sound fun!

[00:36:52] Compared to the rest of the country.

[00:36:54] Yeah.

[00:37:25] So it was almost, you know, it was double the average of the United States.

[00:37:31] One per every like 9,200 people is mortifying.

[00:37:37] Yeah.

[00:37:38] It's insane.

[00:37:38] It's a high rate.

[00:37:39] And I think...

[00:37:40] This is also the height of like gang violence.

[00:37:43] Getting press.

[00:37:44] Yes.

[00:37:44] Everybody knew about the Crips and the Bloods at this point.

[00:37:47] That's...

[00:37:48] It was all over the news.

[00:37:49] There were a lot of movies coming out around this time about like gangs in New York City.

[00:37:54] And it was becoming something...

[00:37:56] Or in Los Angeles, it was becoming something much more sort of in the pop culture mainstream

[00:38:04] conversations.

[00:38:05] This is also the time in my personal life when I started spending more time in Los Angeles.

[00:38:10] I had friends who had moved there.

[00:38:13] And so I started going to LA at least once a year on a trip and hanging out in Los Angeles

[00:38:18] and falling in love with Los Angeles.

[00:38:20] Aw.

[00:38:20] And being like, well, Angel really makes it look dark and seedy.

[00:38:25] But like, have you been to LACMA?

[00:38:27] It's so great.

[00:38:30] And usually very sunny, which I love Angel driving off in a convertible.

[00:38:36] Oh, yeah.

[00:38:36] In LA.

[00:38:37] I'm like, what?

[00:38:38] Like, dude.

[00:38:40] Dude.

[00:38:40] But it's such a cool car.

[00:38:41] It's such a cool car.

[00:38:43] This is why Spike is smarter than Angel.

[00:38:46] Sorry.

[00:38:46] He blacks out his windows and drives with the top up.

[00:38:50] Yeah.

[00:38:50] Yeah.

[00:38:51] Angel's convertible is ridiculous, but it's such an LA cool guy car.

[00:38:56] And it's so-

[00:38:57] The best scene is when he jumps into his car.

[00:39:01] And it's the wrong car.

[00:39:02] And it's the wrong car because there's exactly the same car.

[00:39:06] We should probably-

[00:39:07] I sent you guys a link by text.

[00:39:09] We should put it in the show notes.

[00:39:10] I just typed in like 67 versions of this car in Hollywood.

[00:39:15] And I'm not kidding you.

[00:39:17] Like 60 showed up.

[00:39:18] They used this car for everything.

[00:39:21] Yeah.

[00:39:21] Which I love the fact that Joss Whedon and Greenblatt and whoever decided to do this literally used the car that is in every movie of all time.

[00:39:31] Let's get the iconic LA car.

[00:39:34] And I have to believe that it had at least some bearing on Supernatural later deciding to have a muscle car.

[00:39:42] Like a classic car.

[00:39:44] Yeah.

[00:39:45] I love that car.

[00:39:46] I may just love Dean driving that car.

[00:39:49] One of the brothers.

[00:39:51] Like it's practically a member of the family.

[00:39:53] It is a character.

[00:39:54] It has its own episode where it's basically sentient.

[00:39:57] Yep.

[00:39:59] That's true.

[00:40:00] That's right.

[00:40:01] Let's talk about Russell.

[00:40:05] The scene where Cordelia meets Russell and she's all like, I've been to nice places before.

[00:40:14] Not this nice.

[00:40:15] But my house was nice.

[00:40:16] And we had rooms we didn't even know what to do with.

[00:40:19] And she's nervous babbling in that way that people do.

[00:40:23] And then.

[00:40:23] And mirrors and lots of curtains.

[00:40:26] And then there's that great moment.

[00:40:30] Where she realizes what's happening.

[00:40:32] And of course I have the clip.

[00:40:47] No, I'm not.

[00:40:49] R2.

[00:40:52] We had our own hell mouth.

[00:41:08] God, I love her.

[00:41:09] She's so charming.

[00:41:11] She's a carpenter.

[00:41:11] Charming.

[00:41:13] And.

[00:41:14] And her smile is like, it's like bigger than normal people's smile.

[00:41:20] Like it.

[00:41:20] Yeah.

[00:41:21] It's like half her face is a smile.

[00:41:23] It's so beautiful.

[00:41:24] And that scene is so funny to me.

[00:41:26] I love the way Russell responds when she's like, you're a vampire.

[00:41:29] And he's like, what?

[00:41:30] No, I'm not.

[00:41:31] He literally is like, he's like a four-year-old.

[00:41:35] He literally just says, no, I'm not.

[00:41:37] And she's like.

[00:41:38] And she's like, R2.

[00:41:41] And I was like, what is happening?

[00:41:43] He like looks down into the side.

[00:41:45] Like, no, I'm not.

[00:41:47] Like he's.

[00:41:48] The guy who plays him.

[00:41:49] And I can't think of it.

[00:41:50] He's got a really unique name.

[00:41:51] He's another one of those actors that just shows up.

[00:41:54] Everywhere.

[00:41:55] And lots of different.

[00:41:56] He's been a good guy.

[00:41:58] He's been a bad guy.

[00:41:59] But his performance here is so good.

[00:42:02] Because he is at no time.

[00:42:04] Does he like trail off into camp.

[00:42:07] I probably think really scary.

[00:42:10] He's understated.

[00:42:11] I find him getting invited to a nice place.

[00:42:13] He never raises his voice.

[00:42:14] No mirrors.

[00:42:15] He's just like.

[00:42:16] He exudes.

[00:42:17] Lots of curtains.

[00:42:17] This comfort in his position.

[00:42:19] Hey, you're a vampire.

[00:42:20] I'm gonna kill you.

[00:42:22] It's fine.

[00:42:22] And like.

[00:42:23] R2.

[00:42:24] And he holds his own in a fight.

[00:42:26] I'm from Sunny Day.

[00:42:27] We had our own howl mouth.

[00:42:28] I think I know a vampire when I am alone with him and his fortress like home.

[00:42:34] And you know.

[00:42:34] I think I'm just feeling a little lightheaded from hunger.

[00:42:37] I'm just wacky.

[00:42:38] I'm kidding.

[00:42:39] They are so assured that they're right no matter what.

[00:42:45] And he's like.

[00:42:46] This is what I do.

[00:42:48] It's fine.

[00:42:49] Like he just is so.

[00:42:50] I just thought the performance was fantastic.

[00:42:52] It's subtle.

[00:42:54] And chilling.

[00:42:55] The way that he's not at all put off by Cordelia calling him out on being a vampire.

[00:43:00] He's like.

[00:43:00] No, no, I'm not.

[00:43:01] And then he's like.

[00:43:02] Okay, yeah, I am.

[00:43:03] I'm gonna eat you.

[00:43:03] It's like.

[00:43:04] It's so quiet and calm.

[00:43:06] And I think a lesser actor would have been like.

[00:43:09] Mwahaha.

[00:43:10] About it.

[00:43:11] But he really just.

[00:43:12] It's like.

[00:43:13] It's more sinister that way.

[00:43:15] I was surprised.

[00:43:16] Because he used to be getting away with it.

[00:43:18] Yeah.

[00:43:18] Yeah.

[00:43:19] I just was completely surprised he was a vampire when I watched it initially.

[00:43:23] And.

[00:43:24] And he just.

[00:43:25] Like he never plays off like he's a vampire.

[00:43:28] I mean.

[00:43:28] Right up to the end.

[00:43:29] You know.

[00:43:30] He's like sitting in a.

[00:43:31] In his office.

[00:43:33] You know.

[00:43:33] You know.

[00:43:34] Board meeting.

[00:43:34] And sitting in the sun.

[00:43:36] You know.

[00:43:36] I mean.

[00:43:37] The sun's not shining on him obviously.

[00:43:38] But it's just like.

[00:43:39] Oh my gosh.

[00:43:40] He lives a normal life.

[00:43:41] As a Hollywood.

[00:43:43] Powerhouse.

[00:43:44] Yeah.

[00:43:44] He's Harvey Weinstein.

[00:43:45] He's got money.

[00:43:46] Long before Harvey Weinstein.

[00:43:48] I mean.

[00:43:48] It's so funny.

[00:43:48] During Harvey Weinstein.

[00:43:51] Yeah.

[00:43:51] When Angel comes in.

[00:43:53] And Russell obviously.

[00:43:54] Thinking he's untouchable.

[00:43:55] It's like.

[00:43:56] You know.

[00:43:57] Look at me.

[00:43:57] I pay my taxes.

[00:43:58] I keep my name out of the paper.

[00:44:00] And I don't make waves.

[00:44:01] In return.

[00:44:01] I can do anything I want.

[00:44:02] And Angel's like.

[00:44:03] Really?

[00:44:04] Can you fly?

[00:44:05] And I was just like.

[00:44:06] Oh this is perfect.

[00:44:07] Yeah.

[00:44:07] The minute he said that.

[00:44:08] It's the right amount of cheesy.

[00:44:10] Yeah.

[00:44:10] But it's just so good.

[00:44:12] And I was like.

[00:44:12] Uh oh.

[00:44:13] It's such an iconic.

[00:44:15] Death scene too.

[00:44:16] It's like.

[00:44:17] I mean.

[00:44:17] Watching him like.

[00:44:18] Turn to ash.

[00:44:19] As he's flying.

[00:44:20] And then just the chair.

[00:44:21] Hits the ground.

[00:44:22] I love that so much.

[00:44:23] And everyone in Wolfram in the Heart.

[00:44:25] Is like.

[00:44:26] Oh.

[00:44:26] Shit.

[00:44:28] In my head.

[00:44:30] In this scene.

[00:44:30] Lindsay is like.

[00:44:32] Well.

[00:44:32] You just murdered one of our clients.

[00:44:34] And Angel says.

[00:44:36] Yeah.

[00:44:36] Show me the body.

[00:44:37] But that didn't happen in the episode.

[00:44:39] I don't know where I got that from.

[00:44:41] Well.

[00:44:41] Maybe it's like a deleted scene or something.

[00:44:43] Maybe.

[00:44:44] Yeah.

[00:44:44] Christian Kane.

[00:44:46] I.

[00:44:46] I.

[00:44:47] Let me tell you.

[00:44:47] So.

[00:44:49] He's one of my favorite actors.

[00:44:51] I.

[00:44:51] I've loved him for years and years and years.

[00:44:53] And.

[00:44:53] And I.

[00:44:54] I.

[00:44:54] I love the fact that.

[00:44:55] David Boreanaz.

[00:44:57] I'm sure that Christian Kane got this role.

[00:44:58] Because of.

[00:44:59] They were good friends long before Buffy.

[00:45:01] Are still good friends.

[00:45:02] Certainly how he got the audition.

[00:45:03] Yeah.

[00:45:03] Maybe that's not how he got cast.

[00:45:05] Sure.

[00:45:05] Yeah.

[00:45:06] It gets you in the door.

[00:45:07] Texas boy.

[00:45:08] He.

[00:45:09] In this role.

[00:45:10] He is Lindsay.

[00:45:11] Old friends with Jensen Ackles by the way.

[00:45:12] Yes.

[00:45:13] I love it.

[00:45:13] He talks about missing both of these guys.

[00:45:16] Yeah.

[00:45:16] They're like.

[00:45:17] Yeah.

[00:45:18] Best friends.

[00:45:18] Yeah.

[00:45:18] So cute.

[00:45:19] How he portrays Lindsay.

[00:45:21] We don't even know his name in this episode.

[00:45:23] But how he ends up portraying Lindsay throughout.

[00:45:25] You can tell from this episode.

[00:45:27] And this is what this episode does very well.

[00:45:29] Is they set Lindsay's character up very well.

[00:45:31] As being someone who understands what's going on.

[00:45:35] He's.

[00:45:36] He watches this happen in front of his eyes.

[00:45:38] Does it miss a beat?

[00:45:40] Yeah.

[00:45:41] Talk about parody of lawyers.

[00:45:42] Right?

[00:45:42] Like he doesn't miss a beat.

[00:45:44] He.

[00:45:45] He.

[00:45:45] Angel puts his card back in his pocket.

[00:45:47] He walks past him.

[00:45:48] He gets right.

[00:45:49] He gets right on his flip phone.

[00:45:51] That I'm doing right now.

[00:45:53] And I can't believe I actually have one sitting next to me.

[00:45:55] And he calls and he says we need to have a meeting at four o'clock.

[00:45:58] There's a new player in town.

[00:46:00] And actually.

[00:46:01] For me.

[00:46:02] That's when this series started.

[00:46:04] Because that lets you know that.

[00:46:07] Angel is.

[00:46:09] A player.

[00:46:10] A player.

[00:46:10] Yeah.

[00:46:11] And he is portrayed as such.

[00:46:13] In a big way.

[00:46:15] Throughout this.

[00:46:16] In the same way that Buffy.

[00:46:17] And this is where the two shows.

[00:46:19] Are very similar about their hero.

[00:46:20] You never doubt that Buffy.

[00:46:23] Is.

[00:46:24] Way bigger.

[00:46:25] Than just a slayer in Sunnydale.

[00:46:27] Like she saves the world constantly.

[00:46:28] And you immediately are left.

[00:46:30] Even though we get this.

[00:46:31] Small situation.

[00:46:33] Where by the way.

[00:46:34] Angel does not save the day.

[00:46:36] He does not save the girl.

[00:46:38] Which I think is.

[00:46:39] I love that.

[00:46:40] Gosh I'm starting to like this episode a lot more.

[00:46:42] Now that I'm talking about.

[00:46:43] Which always happens.

[00:46:44] That's what always happens.

[00:46:45] Yeah.

[00:46:46] He does not.

[00:46:47] It's brilliant.

[00:46:47] I just realized.

[00:46:48] Like he does not do what he's supposed to do.

[00:46:50] In the first episode.

[00:46:51] However.

[00:46:52] He does.

[00:46:53] Because he doesn't save.

[00:46:54] It serves him on this path.

[00:46:55] Yes.

[00:46:56] And we.

[00:46:56] And then talking about Cordy too.

[00:47:00] Um.

[00:47:00] I was concerned.

[00:47:02] That they were going to play her.

[00:47:04] As kind of that same parody.

[00:47:06] That she was.

[00:47:07] Initially in Buffy.

[00:47:08] And that scene at the end.

[00:47:10] Where she's just in.

[00:47:12] In his office.

[00:47:13] That we see at the beginning.

[00:47:15] That's just this.

[00:47:16] Building.

[00:47:16] That's not being taken care of.

[00:47:17] His concern is downstairs.

[00:47:19] Where he lives.

[00:47:20] And she's putting this all together.

[00:47:22] And she's.

[00:47:22] She's coming from this person.

[00:47:24] Who has nothing.

[00:47:24] And she's now going to be ready to admit it.

[00:47:27] To somebody who she's known for years.

[00:47:28] With an angel.

[00:47:29] She's talking about how.

[00:47:31] He.

[00:47:31] You know.

[00:47:31] She needs to be hired.

[00:47:32] To help him get through.

[00:47:34] You know.

[00:47:35] Become.

[00:47:35] Yeah.

[00:47:36] What eventually becomes angel investigations.

[00:47:38] And.

[00:47:38] And she says all of this.

[00:47:39] Kind of with.

[00:47:40] With.

[00:47:40] This is going to happen.

[00:47:42] And then says.

[00:47:43] That is.

[00:47:44] If you can still use me.

[00:47:46] And.

[00:47:46] And she.

[00:47:47] Drops from being Cordy.

[00:47:48] To this.

[00:47:49] New character.

[00:47:50] That we're going to get to see.

[00:47:51] Yeah.

[00:47:52] And.

[00:47:52] And.

[00:47:53] You know.

[00:47:53] You can see it in angels.

[00:47:54] Eyes.

[00:47:55] Like he immediately.

[00:47:56] For the first time.

[00:47:57] If you go back and watch.

[00:47:58] How he deals with Cordy.

[00:47:59] And Buffy.

[00:48:00] It's a whole different thing.

[00:48:01] His whole face warms up to her.

[00:48:04] And.

[00:48:04] You know.

[00:48:05] Obviously.

[00:48:06] Yeah.

[00:48:06] He's going to be hired.

[00:48:06] And then.

[00:48:07] And then.

[00:48:08] Cordy goes.

[00:48:08] Of course.

[00:48:09] This is just temperate.

[00:48:10] And she sweeps right back into Cordy.

[00:48:11] But you know.

[00:48:13] Oh gosh.

[00:48:13] We're going to get so much more from her.

[00:48:15] In this series.

[00:48:16] Than we ever got in the series before.

[00:48:18] And what I love too.

[00:48:19] Is we get so much more from David.

[00:48:21] Like.

[00:48:22] Angel becomes this full character.

[00:48:23] Oh.

[00:48:24] So much more personality comes out.

[00:48:26] I just in that first scene.

[00:48:28] When we get to see him.

[00:48:29] Like joking with the guy at the bar.

[00:48:31] And we get to see him turn into something.

[00:48:33] Complete.

[00:48:33] Something else completely.

[00:48:34] I just.

[00:48:35] He's just an understated actor.

[00:48:37] That probably is never going to get all the props.

[00:48:39] That he needs to get.

[00:48:41] Even though.

[00:48:41] I think he's doing okay.

[00:48:43] No.

[00:48:43] Yeah.

[00:48:43] Correct.

[00:48:44] Yeah.

[00:48:44] He's doing fine.

[00:48:45] As the king of CBS.

[00:48:46] Yes.

[00:48:46] I mean he's been on TV now for.

[00:48:48] I mean since.

[00:48:49] Ninety.

[00:48:50] Ninety.

[00:48:50] Ninety six.

[00:48:51] I mean we're close.

[00:48:52] Twenty eight years.

[00:48:53] Twenty eight years.

[00:48:54] Yeah.

[00:48:54] So.

[00:48:55] He's doing fine.

[00:48:57] As the star of yet another.

[00:48:58] High profile network.

[00:49:00] Show.

[00:49:00] I don't actually watch.

[00:49:02] Seal team.

[00:49:03] But I watched every single episode of bones.

[00:49:05] Yeah.

[00:49:05] And.

[00:49:06] I loved it.

[00:49:07] And.

[00:49:08] Well.

[00:49:09] I.

[00:49:09] Um.

[00:49:10] I'm so.

[00:49:11] Grateful that the industry agrees.

[00:49:13] That they're like yeah.

[00:49:15] This guy.

[00:49:15] This guy is a star.

[00:49:17] Let's keep.

[00:49:17] And he must be.

[00:49:19] There's no way that he has worked solidly.

[00:49:21] For twenty.

[00:49:23] Eight years.

[00:49:24] And not be.

[00:49:25] A good person to work with.

[00:49:28] Right.

[00:49:28] There are lots.

[00:49:30] Of stories.

[00:49:30] To work with him.

[00:49:31] Of him.

[00:49:33] Standing up for people over.

[00:49:35] Over the course of the past.

[00:49:36] Twenty five years.

[00:49:38] Um.

[00:49:39] Where.

[00:49:39] And.

[00:49:40] Yeah.

[00:49:40] Recently we discovered.

[00:49:41] He's a practicing witch.

[00:49:43] I love it.

[00:49:45] I love it.

[00:49:46] Which is.

[00:49:46] He's doing.

[00:49:47] Which is crazy.

[00:49:48] Awesome.

[00:49:49] I know.

[00:49:50] He's doing witch rituals on Instagram.

[00:49:53] I'm so into it.

[00:49:54] I think I scrolled past it at first.

[00:49:57] And I was like.

[00:49:57] Hold on.

[00:49:59] What?

[00:49:59] And went back.

[00:50:00] And I think each of us sent something.

[00:50:03] To each other.

[00:50:03] I was like.

[00:50:04] Did you guys see this?

[00:50:05] Yeah.

[00:50:06] And then I was like.

[00:50:07] Is this for a role?

[00:50:08] Is he researching a part?

[00:50:10] And then I was like.

[00:50:10] No.

[00:50:11] It seems like.

[00:50:12] A legit part of his life.

[00:50:14] And.

[00:50:14] Green flag.

[00:50:15] How beautiful is that?

[00:50:16] Like.

[00:50:17] Because.

[00:50:18] It seems to be all about.

[00:50:19] Inner peace.

[00:50:20] And.

[00:50:21] Commuting with nature.

[00:50:22] And.

[00:50:23] Being a better person.

[00:50:24] He's not practicing.

[00:50:25] No.

[00:50:26] No.

[00:50:26] Wiccan rituals.

[00:50:27] For like.

[00:50:29] Self.

[00:50:29] Betterment.

[00:50:30] No.

[00:50:30] It's.

[00:50:31] It's in order to like.

[00:50:32] Spread peace.

[00:50:34] And.

[00:50:34] I am.

[00:50:35] Very pure.

[00:50:35] So there for it.

[00:50:37] Yeah.

[00:50:37] I'm so on board for it.

[00:50:38] There's no.

[00:50:39] Love him more.

[00:50:40] Can you imagine.

[00:50:41] Like.

[00:50:41] He just gets on.

[00:50:42] He does these little rituals.

[00:50:44] There's no mention about him being.

[00:50:46] It's just.

[00:50:47] He just.

[00:50:47] It's who he is.

[00:50:49] And.

[00:50:49] There's no like.

[00:50:50] And watch my show.

[00:50:51] Like none of that.

[00:50:51] Nope.

[00:50:52] Yeah.

[00:50:52] Nope.

[00:50:52] He's just doing his thing.

[00:50:53] It's.

[00:50:54] It's not like a pandemic time thing.

[00:50:56] It's.

[00:50:56] Here I am.

[00:50:58] Cauldron time.

[00:50:59] Let's go.

[00:51:00] Yeah.

[00:51:01] And the way he and Sarah Michelle Gellar have.

[00:51:04] Supported each other through the years and.

[00:51:07] Demonstrate this really nice friendship.

[00:51:09] Is also really adorable.

[00:51:11] It makes me.

[00:51:12] That's another thing that makes me really like him.

[00:51:14] When Charisma Carpenter came out publicly with her stories about Joss Whedon.

[00:51:19] He was all over social media being like.

[00:51:21] I 100% believe her.

[00:51:23] This is a true story.

[00:51:24] I support.

[00:51:24] Yeah.

[00:51:25] Charisma.

[00:51:25] Like.

[00:51:25] I was so afraid.

[00:51:27] Star.

[00:51:28] I was.

[00:51:29] You know.

[00:51:30] You never know.

[00:51:31] Anymore.

[00:51:31] Yeah.

[00:51:32] Who people are.

[00:51:33] Because.

[00:51:33] Horrible stuff came out about Nicholas Brendan too.

[00:51:37] Yeah.

[00:51:37] I remember being like.

[00:51:38] Please.

[00:51:39] Don't say anything about James Marston.

[00:51:41] Or David Boreanaz.

[00:51:43] And.

[00:51:44] Yeah.

[00:51:44] So far people have only said wonderful things about them.

[00:51:47] Yeah.

[00:51:47] And they were both very supportive.

[00:51:49] Yeah.

[00:51:49] And are still.

[00:51:50] Over the course of the past couple of years.

[00:51:52] We've seen lots of.

[00:51:53] All of the actors really coming.

[00:51:55] Sort of coming back.

[00:51:56] And showing up at a lot of different.

[00:51:57] Different.

[00:51:58] Events together.

[00:51:59] Especially as we start.

[00:52:00] Enter the realm of 25 and 30 years.

[00:52:04] Separating from the start.

[00:52:05] Reunions.

[00:52:06] The.

[00:52:06] The.

[00:52:07] The continued support for each other.

[00:52:09] But I.

[00:52:09] I just love watching.

[00:52:11] I.

[00:52:11] Because the fear is always that.

[00:52:13] There's going to be someone that sides with JW on this.

[00:52:16] And.

[00:52:16] I mean.

[00:52:17] Whoever that person might be.

[00:52:18] We're not hearing from them.

[00:52:19] Nope.

[00:52:20] Right.

[00:52:20] They are not.

[00:52:21] They're not making themselves publicly known.

[00:52:24] James Marsters is another one who is famously a nice guy in real life.

[00:52:28] People.

[00:52:29] People who've met him all have stories that are like.

[00:52:32] He was even nicer than I expected.

[00:52:35] And.

[00:52:35] He gave us of his time so generously.

[00:52:38] And.

[00:52:38] He.

[00:52:39] You know.

[00:52:39] Did this.

[00:52:40] And he did that.

[00:52:40] And.

[00:52:41] This isn't a good time to repeat that.

[00:52:44] Kara sent me a cameo from James Marsters last year.

[00:52:47] When I was going through a rough time.

[00:52:49] And.

[00:52:49] It is one of my most favorite things I've ever gotten as a gift.

[00:52:54] And.

[00:52:54] It was so cute.

[00:52:55] He like sang happy birthday to me.

[00:52:57] The whole thing was so cute.

[00:52:58] I mean.

[00:52:59] That wasn't even sent to me.

[00:53:00] But I saw it.

[00:53:01] And it's one of my favorite things ever.

[00:53:05] Adorable.

[00:53:06] And he did it.

[00:53:08] Within like.

[00:53:09] I expected to have to wait a couple of weeks.

[00:53:12] Possibly.

[00:53:12] Because I didn't pay for.

[00:53:14] It to be rushed or anything.

[00:53:16] But.

[00:53:17] I got it.

[00:53:18] Within three hours.

[00:53:19] Wow.

[00:53:21] And I was just like.

[00:53:22] Damn.

[00:53:23] That was fast.

[00:53:24] He loves.

[00:53:26] And I know we're going off on a tangent here.

[00:53:28] I guess.

[00:53:29] That's kind of our brand.

[00:53:30] But.

[00:53:30] Yeah.

[00:53:30] He.

[00:53:31] Well.

[00:53:32] And I think it's important to this too.

[00:53:34] Because I do think that.

[00:53:35] I don't think we're done with the Buffyverse yet.

[00:53:37] Which is exciting for this podcast.

[00:53:39] Because.

[00:53:39] Who knows what we're going to get in the future.

[00:53:40] But.

[00:53:41] I think that.

[00:53:42] Nobody has loved this universe.

[00:53:44] And accepted it.

[00:53:45] And embraced it.

[00:53:46] More than James Marsters.

[00:53:47] Like he.

[00:53:48] Yeah.

[00:53:48] You know.

[00:53:48] You've seen.

[00:53:49] Agreed.

[00:53:50] You know.

[00:53:51] We've seen character.

[00:53:53] Including David Boreanaz.

[00:53:54] Like kind of distanced himself.

[00:53:56] Like I'm doing this show now.

[00:53:57] So.

[00:53:58] I'm not going to talk about that show.

[00:54:00] He has never done that.

[00:54:01] And.

[00:54:02] And it's not out of necessity.

[00:54:04] He's done.

[00:54:05] Like Marsters has been.

[00:54:06] Engaged in shows.

[00:54:08] From then until now.

[00:54:09] Yeah.

[00:54:10] He works steadily.

[00:54:11] And.

[00:54:11] And he.

[00:54:12] He just.

[00:54:13] Is that.

[00:54:13] That person.

[00:54:14] Who has embraced this.

[00:54:16] And.

[00:54:16] If ever there is another show.

[00:54:18] And I'm just going to go out on the limb.

[00:54:20] And say there is going to be another show.

[00:54:21] Connected to the shows we're talking about now.

[00:54:23] It's.

[00:54:24] Partially going to be because of his connectivity.

[00:54:27] To all of this.

[00:54:28] And.

[00:54:29] And I just.

[00:54:30] I love it.

[00:54:30] And I love that.

[00:54:31] Yeah.

[00:54:32] I'll leave it there.

[00:54:33] Because.

[00:54:33] Yeah.

[00:54:34] It's hard for them to.

[00:54:36] To bring back.

[00:54:37] Like Spike or Angel.

[00:54:39] To a show.

[00:54:40] Because.

[00:54:41] Vampires aren't supposed to age.

[00:54:43] And as good as these two men look.

[00:54:45] They do not look the same age.

[00:54:47] They have age.

[00:54:47] They were 25 years ago.

[00:54:48] They have age.

[00:54:49] So I don't know if they're.

[00:54:51] Even going to try to bring those characters back.

[00:54:53] I would be.

[00:54:54] On board for however.

[00:54:55] They might try to do it.

[00:54:57] Because I love.

[00:54:57] There.

[00:54:58] There is a.

[00:55:00] Canon.

[00:55:01] Way.

[00:55:02] That they could.

[00:55:03] Potentially be.

[00:55:05] Brought back.

[00:55:06] And have aged.

[00:55:07] Which.

[00:55:07] As humans.

[00:55:08] Yes.

[00:55:08] I will talk about.

[00:55:10] In spoilers.

[00:55:10] That spoiler section.

[00:55:11] Yeah.

[00:55:11] We'll talk about that later.

[00:55:12] I was thinking about that.

[00:55:13] Earlier today too.

[00:55:14] I was like.

[00:55:14] You know what they could do.

[00:55:16] Anyway.

[00:55:17] It's awesome wall.

[00:55:18] Yeah.

[00:55:19] I have one big thing.

[00:55:21] That kind of.

[00:55:22] To jump off of something.

[00:55:23] That you said Jim.

[00:55:24] Um.

[00:55:25] Um.

[00:55:26] If I.

[00:55:26] If I'll just jump in.

[00:55:28] Go.

[00:55:28] Um.

[00:55:30] So you had mentioned Jim.

[00:55:32] That.

[00:55:32] You know.

[00:55:33] Obviously in this.

[00:55:34] In this episode.

[00:55:35] In the first episode.

[00:55:36] Angel does not.

[00:55:38] Save.

[00:55:39] The girl.

[00:55:40] Ultimately.

[00:55:40] He.

[00:55:41] He fails.

[00:55:42] And I think that is a.

[00:55:44] Huge part.

[00:55:45] Of.

[00:55:46] Not only.

[00:55:47] Setting the tone.

[00:55:47] For this show.

[00:55:48] And distinguishing it.

[00:55:50] From Buffy.

[00:55:51] But also.

[00:55:52] Letting us know.

[00:55:53] What to expect.

[00:55:54] When Angel.

[00:55:55] Does lose.

[00:55:57] That human connection.

[00:55:58] Like Doyle had talked about.

[00:55:59] Because.

[00:56:00] He had gained.

[00:56:01] Tina's trust.

[00:56:02] He clearly had started to.

[00:56:05] You know.

[00:56:05] At least.

[00:56:06] Minimally care about her.

[00:56:08] And as soon as he loses her.

[00:56:10] He immediately.

[00:56:12] Goes into this.

[00:56:14] Vengeance.

[00:56:15] Mode.

[00:56:16] Which we've seen with him before.

[00:56:17] And I think one of the.

[00:56:19] The key points.

[00:56:21] That ties.

[00:56:22] Buffy and Angel together.

[00:56:23] Like obviously.

[00:56:24] They are very different.

[00:56:25] Quote unquote heroes.

[00:56:27] The tone of the show.

[00:56:28] Is very different.

[00:56:29] But one thing.

[00:56:30] That is.

[00:56:32] Similar.

[00:56:33] Between the both of them.

[00:56:34] Is this notion.

[00:56:36] That what keeps them.

[00:56:38] Kind of.

[00:56:38] As powerful.

[00:56:39] As they are.

[00:56:40] And you know.

[00:56:42] Allows them.

[00:56:43] To do what they do.

[00:56:44] Is their connection.

[00:56:45] To.

[00:56:46] The world.

[00:56:46] Into people.

[00:56:47] And the connections.

[00:56:48] That they form.

[00:56:49] With those people.

[00:56:50] It gives them a certain.

[00:56:51] Power.

[00:56:52] It gives them something.

[00:56:52] To fight for.

[00:56:53] It gives them something.

[00:56:54] To live for.

[00:56:55] And I think.

[00:56:57] That.

[00:56:58] We see.

[00:56:59] Angel slip into.

[00:57:00] His darker self.

[00:57:01] When that human.

[00:57:02] Connection.

[00:57:03] Goes away.

[00:57:04] Yeah.

[00:57:04] And that theme.

[00:57:05] Comes up over and over again.

[00:57:06] In Buffy.

[00:57:07] It comes up in this show.

[00:57:08] And I think they do.

[00:57:09] A great job.

[00:57:11] Kind of.

[00:57:12] Subtly.

[00:57:13] Portraying that to us.

[00:57:14] In this first episode.

[00:57:16] Because at first.

[00:57:17] I was kind of irritated.

[00:57:18] By Tina.

[00:57:19] Honestly.

[00:57:20] I was like.

[00:57:20] What a way.

[00:57:21] Like.

[00:57:21] He charms her.

[00:57:23] We feel sorry for her.

[00:57:24] And then.

[00:57:25] She dies.

[00:57:26] But I think she really does.

[00:57:28] Serve a purpose.

[00:57:29] Like I said.

[00:57:29] Showing us what happens.

[00:57:31] When.

[00:57:32] You know.

[00:57:33] Angel.

[00:57:34] Well.

[00:57:34] Is not able to.

[00:57:35] Maintain that human connection.

[00:57:37] And then she introduces us.

[00:57:38] To Wolfram and Hart.

[00:57:40] Yeah.

[00:57:40] In a very.

[00:57:41] You know.

[00:57:42] Linear.

[00:57:43] Sensical way.

[00:57:45] It makes sense.

[00:57:45] As to how we get to the point of.

[00:57:47] Being introduced to this.

[00:57:49] Law firm.

[00:57:50] That we know nothing about.

[00:57:51] At this point.

[00:57:52] But their association with Russell.

[00:57:55] Is not a good sign.

[00:57:56] No.

[00:57:57] Yeah.

[00:57:57] Buffy's flawed too.

[00:57:58] I mean.

[00:57:59] She's very flawed.

[00:58:00] But I.

[00:58:00] This show does.

[00:58:03] Angel fails.

[00:58:04] A lot.

[00:58:05] In this show.

[00:58:06] Going forward.

[00:58:07] There's a.

[00:58:08] There's.

[00:58:08] And I think this does set the tone for that.

[00:58:10] And.

[00:58:11] I love that.

[00:58:13] Part of this show.

[00:58:14] Is that.

[00:58:15] It's.

[00:58:15] He is a superhero.

[00:58:17] Character.

[00:58:17] But it's definitely.

[00:58:20] L.A.

[00:58:20] And not Sunnydale.

[00:58:22] It's definitely.

[00:58:23] Rooted in more truth.

[00:58:25] Because.

[00:58:26] You know.

[00:58:26] We know.

[00:58:27] In real life.

[00:58:28] You know.

[00:58:29] Things happen.

[00:58:30] And we don't solve them.

[00:58:31] And.

[00:58:32] There are.

[00:58:33] Very often.

[00:58:34] Things that happen.

[00:58:35] Going forward.

[00:58:36] That we can talk about.

[00:58:37] In the spoiler section.

[00:58:39] Where.

[00:58:40] Just like this episode.

[00:58:42] What we think is going to happen.

[00:58:43] Doesn't.

[00:58:44] And not in a good way.

[00:58:45] In big ways.

[00:58:46] Like throughout the series.

[00:58:48] And I.

[00:58:48] We love subverting expectations.

[00:58:50] I mean.

[00:58:51] And that's what this series.

[00:58:53] Becomes.

[00:58:55] You know.

[00:58:55] All the way up to the finale.

[00:58:57] Including the finale.

[00:58:58] Yeah.

[00:58:58] Like it.

[00:58:58] Dependent on how you feel about the finale of the show.

[00:59:00] So.

[00:59:01] I love.

[00:59:02] And I.

[00:59:03] Again.

[00:59:03] It.

[00:59:04] Again.

[00:59:04] As I'm talking here with y'all.

[00:59:06] Thank you.

[00:59:07] I'm starting to love this episode a bit.

[00:59:10] And.

[00:59:10] And Tina.

[00:59:11] As flawed a character as she is.

[00:59:13] Because Kara.

[00:59:14] I agree with you.

[00:59:14] I hated her until this moment.

[00:59:16] Yeah.

[00:59:16] She gives us.

[00:59:19] The story.

[00:59:20] That we hear.

[00:59:21] Often.

[00:59:23] She's.

[00:59:24] Being.

[00:59:25] Abused.

[00:59:26] To.

[00:59:27] Not be able to leave.

[00:59:28] Because of this.

[00:59:29] Character.

[00:59:30] I mean.

[00:59:30] It's.

[00:59:31] Powerful person.

[00:59:31] Yeah.

[00:59:32] I mean.

[00:59:32] I mean.

[00:59:33] You know.

[00:59:33] You can look into it.

[00:59:34] However you want.

[00:59:35] You know.

[00:59:36] With allegations.

[00:59:37] Or truth.

[00:59:38] Or Hollywood.

[00:59:39] As we talked about earlier.

[00:59:40] In this episode.

[00:59:42] But.

[00:59:42] She spells it out.

[00:59:44] And then.

[00:59:44] Doesn't get out.

[00:59:45] Moments later.

[00:59:46] Is.

[00:59:46] Is dead.

[00:59:47] In Angel.

[00:59:48] And.

[00:59:49] She teaches Angel.

[00:59:51] A couple of really valuable lessons.

[00:59:53] Two.

[00:59:53] One.

[00:59:54] You know.

[00:59:55] He needs to.

[00:59:56] Connect with people.

[00:59:57] In order to save them.

[00:59:58] He needs to understand their lives a little bit.

[01:00:00] And connect with them.

[01:00:01] Two.

[01:00:01] He can't do it by himself.

[01:00:03] Because he is a vampire.

[01:00:04] He can't go out in the sun.

[01:00:05] And people are going to be afraid of him.

[01:00:07] If they know he's a vampire.

[01:00:08] He needs a team.

[01:00:09] Yeah.

[01:00:10] She was a little too trusting of him.

[01:00:12] Like.

[01:00:12] That woman has terrible survival instincts.

[01:00:14] Oh.

[01:00:15] Every.

[01:00:15] Like.

[01:00:15] She made bad decision after bad decision.

[01:00:18] One after.

[01:00:18] It's not her fault that she rents an apartment from this guy.

[01:00:22] No.

[01:00:23] No.

[01:00:23] No.

[01:00:23] He owns a building.

[01:00:24] But just like when she walks outside.

[01:00:27] And he.

[01:00:28] You know.

[01:00:28] And he's waiting for her.

[01:00:30] And she pulls out the pepper spray.

[01:00:31] And she's like.

[01:00:32] You work with Russell.

[01:00:32] And he's basically like.

[01:00:34] No I'm not.

[01:00:34] I'm lonely.

[01:00:35] Just like you.

[01:00:36] I'm like.

[01:00:36] Come on.

[01:00:37] Yeah.

[01:00:37] That whole.

[01:00:37] Don't put that pepper spray away.

[01:00:39] And definitely don't get in the car with this strange man.

[01:00:42] Sounds good.

[01:00:43] Yay.

[01:00:43] Yay.

[01:00:44] Yeah.

[01:00:44] Oh a lonely man in Los Angeles.

[01:00:47] I bet he's safe then.

[01:00:48] No he's not.

[01:00:49] And he is huge.

[01:00:51] I know.

[01:00:51] Like.

[01:00:51] He is an imposing figure.

[01:00:53] Yeah.

[01:00:54] And obviously.

[01:00:55] We know Angel would never hurt her intentionally.

[01:00:59] And that he is a good guy.

[01:01:01] But I was just like.

[01:01:02] Tina.

[01:01:02] From her perspective.

[01:01:03] She should have been like.

[01:01:05] I'm sorry you're lonely.

[01:01:07] Go take a class at the Y.

[01:01:09] Yeah.

[01:01:09] And leave me alone.

[01:01:11] Like.

[01:01:11] He did disarm her though.

[01:01:13] By being like.

[01:01:14] Awkward.

[01:01:15] When she.

[01:01:15] What did she say?

[01:01:17] You don't hit on girls very often do you?

[01:01:19] Or something like that.

[01:01:21] And.

[01:01:21] He was like.

[01:01:22] It's been a while.

[01:01:22] I was like.

[01:01:23] Aw buddy.

[01:01:23] And I did love though.

[01:01:24] When they show that scene.

[01:01:26] In the coffee shop.

[01:01:27] Before he talks to Tina.

[01:01:29] Where he's looking down at the dog.

[01:01:30] And he kind of.

[01:01:31] Can't help himself.

[01:01:32] But smile.

[01:01:33] At how cute the dog is.

[01:01:34] And I was like.

[01:01:35] Aw.

[01:01:35] Angel likes dogs.

[01:01:36] Yeah.

[01:01:36] Well see.

[01:01:36] And that's.

[01:01:37] That's the depth of the show.

[01:01:38] That's what.

[01:01:39] And that's what we need in this first episode.

[01:01:41] To see that he's not just that brooding guy.

[01:01:43] Like.

[01:01:44] Off in the distance.

[01:01:45] Who's like.

[01:01:45] Shoulder huddled.

[01:01:46] And is like.

[01:01:47] You know.

[01:01:48] Like James Dean.

[01:01:49] Has a heart of gold.

[01:01:50] Yeah.

[01:01:50] Like dark coat.

[01:01:51] In the shadows.

[01:01:53] Billowing coat.

[01:01:54] In the shadows.

[01:01:55] Just shadows.

[01:01:56] All the shadows.

[01:01:57] Yeah.

[01:01:57] Like that's what.

[01:01:57] He should have a dog.

[01:01:59] Yeah.

[01:01:59] He should.

[01:02:00] Yeah.

[01:02:00] But that's what.

[01:02:01] Famously.

[01:02:02] David Boreanaz.

[01:02:03] Apparently was discovered walking his dog.

[01:02:05] That's how he got his first agent.

[01:02:07] And.

[01:02:07] That is so funny.

[01:02:08] His audition for Buffy.

[01:02:09] And it probably looks.

[01:02:10] Exactly like the scene of that man.

[01:02:12] Like telling him that he's an actor.

[01:02:14] I'm not an actor.

[01:02:16] Yeah.

[01:02:16] That's cute.

[01:02:17] Yeah you are.

[01:02:18] But he does that awkward.

[01:02:20] Like.

[01:02:20] Aw shucks.

[01:02:21] Charm.

[01:02:22] So well.

[01:02:23] There's something he does with his eyebrows.

[01:02:25] When.

[01:02:26] Especially.

[01:02:27] You know.

[01:02:27] When Tina has slept over.

[01:02:29] And.

[01:02:30] He's offering her coffee or whatever.

[01:02:32] And she says.

[01:02:33] Do you take.

[01:02:33] He says.

[01:02:34] Do you take milk and sugar?

[01:02:35] And she's like.

[01:02:36] Yeah.

[01:02:36] And he's like.

[01:02:36] Oh.

[01:02:36] Oh.

[01:02:36] Because I don't have those things.

[01:02:38] I was like.

[01:02:40] What are you doing man?

[01:02:41] I was like.

[01:02:42] Aw.

[01:02:43] You're such a dork.

[01:02:45] Yep.

[01:02:46] Yeah.

[01:02:46] He's trying.

[01:02:47] And that's kind of it.

[01:02:48] Right.

[01:02:48] Like he's.

[01:02:49] There's a look to him.

[01:02:51] That never really matches.

[01:02:53] What he delivers.

[01:02:54] Until he.

[01:02:55] He looks like he's going to be all like.

[01:02:57] Smooth.

[01:02:58] And.

[01:02:58] And self-assured.

[01:02:59] And he only is that.

[01:03:01] When he's Angelus.

[01:03:02] Yeah.

[01:03:03] And Angelus is very smooth.

[01:03:04] And charming.

[01:03:06] Right.

[01:03:06] And Angel.

[01:03:07] Yeah.

[01:03:07] Is always.

[01:03:09] He's Liam.

[01:03:09] Kind of a dork.

[01:03:10] There's still.

[01:03:11] Liam.

[01:03:12] In there.

[01:03:12] In there.

[01:03:13] Yeah.

[01:03:13] It's what makes us love him.

[01:03:15] Right.

[01:03:15] Because if he was smooth on top of being that good looking.

[01:03:18] After a while you'd be like.

[01:03:19] Eh.

[01:03:19] This guy.

[01:03:20] And through all of this.

[01:03:22] We go through this whole episode.

[01:03:24] And how does it end?

[01:03:25] He picks up the phone.

[01:03:26] He dials.

[01:03:27] And we get that moment that you guys got to talk about last week.

[01:03:31] Yeah.

[01:03:32] Where Buffy answers the phone.

[01:03:33] Where Buffy answers the phone.

[01:03:34] And he hangs up.

[01:03:35] And you get that moment.

[01:03:37] Right.

[01:03:37] Where.

[01:03:38] You get.

[01:03:38] A.

[01:03:38] They have to connect it back to that show.

[01:03:40] Of course.

[01:03:41] Yeah.

[01:03:41] But you get that moment where we realize.

[01:03:43] Gosh.

[01:03:44] He's just this lonely.

[01:03:46] 244 year old boy.

[01:03:47] Yeah.

[01:03:48] Who is still in love.

[01:03:49] Is alone.

[01:03:50] And then.

[01:03:51] But then we get.

[01:03:53] Yeah.

[01:03:53] And then we get.

[01:03:57] There's something about him too.

[01:03:59] That I love.

[01:03:59] Another boyishness to him.

[01:04:01] Oh yeah.

[01:04:02] He comes walking in.

[01:04:03] To tell the story of.

[01:04:06] This is who you need to be.

[01:04:08] And there's flaws to that conversation.

[01:04:09] As we've talked about.

[01:04:10] But nobody's is.

[01:04:12] More flawed than.

[01:04:14] Than Quinn's character.

[01:04:15] And you know.

[01:04:16] Again it's hard to talk about his character.

[01:04:18] Knowing the arc.

[01:04:20] But I just.

[01:04:21] I think that.

[01:04:23] Doyle in this episode.

[01:04:25] I love that he just sort of.

[01:04:26] Walks in.

[01:04:28] I love that.

[01:04:30] He's the first person.

[01:04:32] That mentions the powers that be.

[01:04:35] Yeah.

[01:04:35] A big theme throughout.

[01:04:37] The entire series.

[01:04:38] And he does such an amazing job.

[01:04:41] Being a conduit.

[01:04:42] What I thought.

[01:04:43] What I didn't remember in my head.

[01:04:44] Is that we don't see.

[01:04:47] What becomes such an.

[01:04:48] Integral part of the show going forward.

[01:04:50] We don't see him.

[01:04:52] Have the vision.

[01:04:53] He has the vision.

[01:04:55] And.

[01:04:56] It almost leaves doubt.

[01:04:57] Like I remember when I first watched this.

[01:04:59] And he handed the note over to Angel.

[01:05:00] I was like.

[01:05:01] Why is Angel believing this guy?

[01:05:03] Like this random dude that shows up.

[01:05:05] Is it because he can sound Irish?

[01:05:07] Yeah.

[01:05:08] I know.

[01:05:08] You know.

[01:05:08] It's just.

[01:05:09] Like one of us.

[01:05:10] Yeah.

[01:05:11] Yeah.

[01:05:11] Is it the momentary.

[01:05:13] You know.

[01:05:13] Sneeze into demon form.

[01:05:15] That made Angel feel like.

[01:05:16] I love that.

[01:05:17] I could trust this guy.

[01:05:18] I don't know.

[01:05:19] It's.

[01:05:19] It's so funny.

[01:05:20] The special effects are so dated.

[01:05:23] Oh yeah.

[01:05:23] But it's such a great idea.

[01:05:25] That when he sneezes.

[01:05:26] He turns into it.

[01:05:27] I love it.

[01:05:28] There's nothing that scares me more.

[01:05:29] Than when I have to sneeze.

[01:05:31] And I'm driving.

[01:05:32] In traffic.

[01:05:33] Oh gosh.

[01:05:33] And because I always close my eyes when I sneeze.

[01:05:35] I can't control it.

[01:05:36] There's nothing you can do about that.

[01:05:38] And I'm like.

[01:05:38] Don't crash.

[01:05:39] Don't crash.

[01:05:39] Batch you.

[01:05:40] Like.

[01:05:40] And I was like.

[01:05:41] Oh my god.

[01:05:41] If every time I sneezed.

[01:05:43] Like.

[01:05:43] My deepest.

[01:05:44] Darkest secret was visible on my face.

[01:05:46] Oh my lord.

[01:05:48] You just not want to go out in public.

[01:05:50] And like.

[01:05:50] Nope.

[01:05:51] I'm not risking it.

[01:05:52] I have a question about Doyle.

[01:05:54] So.

[01:05:55] He says to.

[01:05:56] To Angel.

[01:05:58] Well.

[01:05:58] I came in uninvited.

[01:05:59] So you know.

[01:05:59] I'm not a vampire.

[01:06:00] And I'm like.

[01:06:01] Does that work on vampires.

[01:06:02] Residences?

[01:06:03] I don't.

[01:06:04] I didn't think.

[01:06:05] So.

[01:06:06] I thought that anyone could walk into a vampire's house.

[01:06:09] Spike and Angel have barged into each other's places.

[01:06:13] Multiple times.

[01:06:14] Repeatedly.

[01:06:15] Yeah.

[01:06:16] Yeah.

[01:06:16] So.

[01:06:17] I don't know.

[01:06:17] I don't think it works that way.

[01:06:19] And also.

[01:06:21] Our conversation last week about like.

[01:06:23] Do dorms count as a residence or whatever.

[01:06:26] And then.

[01:06:27] Like.

[01:06:27] Does an office building where someone lives in the basement count as a residence more than a dorm?

[01:06:33] Like how.

[01:06:34] Yeah.

[01:06:34] How does that work?

[01:06:36] Sometimes.

[01:06:37] You have to invite them in.

[01:06:38] Rules are a little.

[01:06:39] A little fast and loose.

[01:06:41] One of my most favorite moments in the whole episode is when Angel breaks into the Los Angeles public library at night to use the computers.

[01:06:51] Oh yeah.

[01:06:52] The super 90s computers.

[01:06:54] And how he uses all of them.

[01:06:55] And he has a rolly chair going back and forth between them.

[01:06:58] He's just rolling back and forth.

[01:06:59] And I was like.

[01:07:00] I was like.

[01:07:01] Damn.

[01:07:01] That's brilliant.

[01:07:02] Brilliant job.

[01:07:03] Angel.

[01:07:03] That's awesome.

[01:07:05] When I was a film major in college.

[01:07:07] And I was editing.

[01:07:09] I used to like to go to the editing room.

[01:07:11] At like 5 a.m.

[01:07:13] Before anybody else got there.

[01:07:14] And take the two best editing scene backs.

[01:07:18] They were these like big editing tables.

[01:07:20] And clear everything out of the way.

[01:07:22] And I would put my raw footage on one.

[01:07:24] And my edited footage on the other.

[01:07:26] And I would roll each chair back and forth between them.

[01:07:29] Just like that.

[01:07:29] And I was like.

[01:07:31] Angel borrowed my trick.

[01:07:32] You know what that reminds me of too.

[01:07:35] Every time I see it.

[01:07:37] Is that scene in Jurassic Park.

[01:07:39] With Samuel L. Jackson's character.

[01:07:41] Oh yeah.

[01:07:42] And the multiple computers.

[01:07:43] The cigarette is hanging.

[01:07:45] And he's.

[01:07:46] Ash is that long.

[01:07:46] And it says done.

[01:07:48] Yeah.

[01:07:48] And he's just like.

[01:07:49] What the.

[01:07:50] And going back and forth.

[01:07:52] Every time I see it.

[01:07:53] That's what I think of.

[01:07:54] This had similarly rudimentary internet.

[01:07:57] Oh yeah.

[01:07:58] The computer screens were.

[01:08:00] Like.

[01:08:01] First of all.

[01:08:01] The font was like.

[01:08:02] 24 point font.

[01:08:03] So you could see it on TV.

[01:08:05] And.

[01:08:06] You know.

[01:08:06] It was like.

[01:08:07] Murder.

[01:08:08] Girl.

[01:08:08] Comma.

[01:08:09] Young.

[01:08:10] Women.

[01:08:10] I was like.

[01:08:11] Angel.

[01:08:11] That was kind of weird.

[01:08:12] Yeah.

[01:08:13] In 1999.

[01:08:14] It would have taken him 17 weeks.

[01:08:16] First of all.

[01:08:17] For anything to come up.

[01:08:18] And we know.

[01:08:19] The only thing that those computers did really well.

[01:08:22] In 1999.

[01:08:23] Was print like dot matrix.

[01:08:24] Like posters.

[01:08:26] Yeah.

[01:08:27] But I loved that.

[01:08:29] You know.

[01:08:29] He's on his own.

[01:08:31] But.

[01:08:31] He has been.

[01:08:33] Sort of in training from Giles.

[01:08:34] For the last three years.

[01:08:36] And so he's like.

[01:08:37] What do I need to do?

[01:08:37] I need to go to a library.

[01:08:39] And I need to do research.

[01:08:41] And.

[01:08:41] You know.

[01:08:42] That's what he does.

[01:08:43] And it's so cute.

[01:08:44] And I love that he like.

[01:08:45] Breaks in at night.

[01:08:46] Using like.

[01:08:47] Sewer tunnels or whatever.

[01:08:48] Everything about that scene.

[01:08:50] Made me so happy.

[01:08:51] I don't.

[01:08:52] I don't really know why.

[01:08:53] But I just loved it.

[01:08:54] It was so.

[01:08:55] 1999.

[01:08:56] Like.

[01:08:57] Oh yeah.

[01:08:57] Well.

[01:08:58] If I need the internet.

[01:08:59] I need to go to a library.

[01:09:00] I love that.

[01:09:02] This is who Angel is in that moment.

[01:09:04] He's by himself.

[01:09:05] And.

[01:09:05] And knowing.

[01:09:06] You know.

[01:09:07] You mentioned Giles.

[01:09:08] And knowing that they're.

[01:09:10] Over the course of this season.

[01:09:11] And then next season.

[01:09:13] We have this sort of.

[01:09:14] Angel investigations.

[01:09:16] Starts as this.

[01:09:17] And becomes.

[01:09:19] Just something else entirely.

[01:09:21] And there's so much more to be added to it.

[01:09:23] And taken away at the same time.

[01:09:25] That.

[01:09:27] I just.

[01:09:27] There was something raw to this episode.

[01:09:30] That I really appreciate.

[01:09:32] Because you could tell.

[01:09:33] Too.

[01:09:33] Because remember.

[01:09:34] We have two shows.

[01:09:35] That are very.

[01:09:36] That have two completely different appetites.

[01:09:38] That look completely different.

[01:09:39] Which is amazing.

[01:09:40] Considering.

[01:09:41] The same people.

[01:09:43] Are working on both.

[01:09:44] But we can see.

[01:09:46] Too.

[01:09:47] As these shows start to separate.

[01:09:48] And as.

[01:09:49] Certain people start to facilitate.

[01:09:51] Towards one.

[01:09:52] One and then the other.

[01:09:53] This is the beginning of that.

[01:09:54] And we can start to see.

[01:09:56] The separation of the two shows.

[01:09:58] Which is funny.

[01:09:59] Because the only connectivity.

[01:10:00] That we have.

[01:10:01] Aside from.

[01:10:01] Obviously Angel and Cordy.

[01:10:03] Is that phone call.

[01:10:04] And we don't even have.

[01:10:05] I think the.

[01:10:05] Episode three.

[01:10:06] Or episode four.

[01:10:07] Is when we first start to.

[01:10:08] Have those like.

[01:10:10] Episodes that connect into each other.

[01:10:11] Yeah it's three.

[01:10:12] Yeah it's three.

[01:10:13] We'll get there.

[01:10:13] Yeah.

[01:10:14] But I just.

[01:10:14] I love that.

[01:10:16] So if you're.

[01:10:16] If you've just started with us.

[01:10:18] And you're listening to this podcast.

[01:10:20] This episode.

[01:10:21] Is literally like.

[01:10:22] You sticking your pinky toe.

[01:10:24] Into the series.

[01:10:26] Because as we go forward.

[01:10:28] There's.

[01:10:29] There's so much more to come.

[01:10:31] And the world gets so much bigger.

[01:10:34] Separate of Buffy.

[01:10:35] And even together with Buffy.

[01:10:36] So I just.

[01:10:37] I do.

[01:10:38] I am starting to like this episode.

[01:10:40] A lot more.

[01:10:41] Yeah.

[01:10:42] It's funny how that happens.

[01:10:43] With podcasting.

[01:10:44] It's just.

[01:10:45] So weird.

[01:10:46] Like the more you talk about the episode.

[01:10:48] The more you like it.

[01:10:49] And it's wild.

[01:10:50] How that works.

[01:10:52] Because.

[01:10:52] You would think that if you didn't like something.

[01:10:54] And then you talk about it.

[01:10:56] That you'd be like.

[01:10:56] Talking about it sucks.

[01:10:58] I hate talking about something I don't like.

[01:11:00] But.

[01:11:01] It's too fun.

[01:11:02] We're having too much fun.

[01:11:03] Does anybody else have any notes.

[01:11:05] That they have left over.

[01:11:06] Any points that they haven't.

[01:11:08] Mentioned.

[01:11:09] I wanted to just bring up.

[01:11:11] How much I love.

[01:11:12] The old school elevator.

[01:11:14] In the building.

[01:11:15] Where Angel is living.

[01:11:15] I love those elevators.

[01:11:17] With the metal cage.

[01:11:19] And that you know.

[01:11:20] You have to manually operate.

[01:11:21] I had one of those.

[01:11:23] In a building I lived in.

[01:11:24] In Brooklyn.

[01:11:25] And it was like.

[01:11:25] One of my most favorite things in the world.

[01:11:27] To operate that elevator.

[01:11:29] And you know.

[01:11:30] It had a crank.

[01:11:32] In order to choose what floor you were on.

[01:11:33] And you had to get really good at getting.

[01:11:36] To the floor level.

[01:11:37] You would often be like.

[01:11:38] Six inches too high.

[01:11:39] And then six inches too low.

[01:11:40] And then you'd go back and forth.

[01:11:42] And like.

[01:11:42] Try to get yourself to the level of the floor.

[01:11:44] And I.

[01:11:46] I was talking about this recently.

[01:11:47] With my neighbors.

[01:11:48] Because we were talking about.

[01:11:48] How we need a freight elevator.

[01:11:49] In our building.

[01:11:50] And I was like.

[01:11:50] We need to get one of those ones.

[01:11:51] With the metal cage doors.

[01:11:53] And the crank to operate it.

[01:11:55] And they were all like.

[01:11:56] Ew.

[01:11:56] No.

[01:11:57] And I was like.

[01:11:58] None of you understand how fun that is.

[01:12:00] Like what's the matter with you?

[01:12:02] Well.

[01:12:03] There's a connectivity.

[01:12:04] To old Hollywood.

[01:12:05] With this series.

[01:12:06] I think.

[01:12:07] That goes forward.

[01:12:08] And this is like.

[01:12:08] The first of it.

[01:12:09] Also.

[01:12:09] While this doesn't connect to the 60s Batman.

[01:12:12] Who of course went down the infamous.

[01:12:14] Like yellow pole.

[01:12:16] The newer Batmans have cages.

[01:12:19] Like this.

[01:12:20] That go down.

[01:12:20] And I think there's another purposeful.

[01:12:22] Kind of connective tissue to that.

[01:12:25] But yeah.

[01:12:25] I.

[01:12:26] I'm always.

[01:12:27] That always.

[01:12:28] Like.

[01:12:29] I want to live in a building that has that.

[01:12:31] Just once.

[01:12:32] Just once.

[01:12:33] I love them.

[01:12:34] I think they're beautiful.

[01:12:36] Yeah.

[01:12:36] And fun.

[01:12:37] I've been in.

[01:12:37] They're probably really dangerous.

[01:12:39] They probably.

[01:12:40] I've been in one of those.

[01:12:41] Once.

[01:12:41] And it was a much bigger elevator.

[01:12:43] And it literally didn't stop.

[01:12:45] In the right spot.

[01:12:47] We had to step up a foot.

[01:12:48] To get into.

[01:12:49] Holy hell.

[01:12:50] The place that we were going in.

[01:12:51] And.

[01:12:52] The person who.

[01:12:53] Had done that.

[01:12:54] Continuously said.

[01:12:55] Yeah.

[01:12:56] Well at least we got this close.

[01:12:58] I was like.

[01:12:58] Okay.

[01:12:59] You don't have to crawl to get out of the elevator.

[01:13:01] Have fun.

[01:13:02] That is how they are.

[01:13:04] And.

[01:13:05] There are some famous.

[01:13:07] Old Hollywood elevators.

[01:13:09] That once you start looking for them.

[01:13:11] You'll see them over and over again.

[01:13:12] In movies and TV.

[01:13:13] There's.

[01:13:14] There's a building that shows up in Blade Runner.

[01:13:17] That's the first time I was aware of it.

[01:13:18] That later shows up in an episode of Bones.

[01:13:21] And.

[01:13:21] It has one of those old elevators.

[01:13:23] And Bones and Booth get stuck in.

[01:13:26] The old school elevator.

[01:13:28] During like a blizzard.

[01:13:29] The power goes out.

[01:13:31] And.

[01:13:31] It's a building.

[01:13:32] It was also in 500 days of summer.

[01:13:34] It's a.

[01:13:35] It's a famous LA building.

[01:13:36] That's been in a bunch of movies.

[01:13:38] There's three things that I never saw ever being connected.

[01:13:41] I know.

[01:13:43] Like six degrees of elevators.

[01:13:46] Yeah.

[01:13:47] That's funny.

[01:13:48] I guess the only.

[01:13:49] The only thing that.

[01:13:50] That kind of.

[01:13:51] The humor in this.

[01:13:52] Again.

[01:13:53] I.

[01:13:53] I'm very.

[01:13:55] Like.

[01:13:55] Doyle's character is.

[01:13:57] I love that character so much.

[01:13:59] He's.

[01:13:59] Talking to Angel.

[01:14:01] And.

[01:14:01] He says.

[01:14:02] It's not all about fighting and gadgets and such.

[01:14:05] It's about reaching out to people.

[01:14:06] Showing them that there's love and hope.

[01:14:08] And still left in this world.

[01:14:10] And then a homeless woman walks up.

[01:14:11] And says.

[01:14:13] Hey.

[01:14:14] Spare change.

[01:14:15] And Doyle looks at her.

[01:14:16] Get a job you lazy sal.

[01:14:18] And I was like.

[01:14:19] Oh yeah.

[01:14:19] Oh.

[01:14:20] Okay.

[01:14:21] Ouch.

[01:14:22] And then he continues.

[01:14:24] Talking about hope.

[01:14:25] And it's just like.

[01:14:27] How they.

[01:14:27] No self-awareness.

[01:14:29] Yeah.

[01:14:29] Yeah.

[01:14:30] Okay.

[01:14:30] It's time to talk about.

[01:14:33] Pop culture references.

[01:14:34] And there's one that has.

[01:14:35] A listing of 12.

[01:14:37] That is not next to my name.

[01:14:38] And I can't wait to see what happens with that.

[01:14:40] But.

[01:14:42] Kara.

[01:14:43] Off to you.

[01:14:44] I love it.

[01:14:45] Of course.

[01:14:45] Doyle refers to the Batcave.

[01:14:48] Batman's secret hideout.

[01:14:50] Beneath his mansion.

[01:14:51] Which is incredibly appropriate.

[01:14:52] For this episode.

[01:14:54] Yeah.

[01:14:55] His basement.

[01:14:56] His basement.

[01:14:57] His basement.

[01:14:58] House.

[01:15:01] So.

[01:15:02] Doyle.

[01:15:02] This is probably the thing I laughed at the most.

[01:15:05] Doyle says he wants to go out.

[01:15:07] And get some Billy Dee.

[01:15:08] And then the next thing you know.

[01:15:10] We see him holding a bag.

[01:15:12] With what we can only imagine is some.

[01:15:15] Colt 45.

[01:15:16] Which is not a sponsor.

[01:15:18] Although I would be okay with that.

[01:15:19] It's a.

[01:15:20] Obviously.

[01:15:21] It's a.

[01:15:21] It's a mention.

[01:15:22] A reference to.

[01:15:23] The alcoholic.

[01:15:25] Beverage.

[01:15:25] Known as.

[01:15:27] Colt 45.

[01:15:29] Which ran a popular ad campaign.

[01:15:31] Featuring Billy Dee Williams.

[01:15:32] A malt liquor.

[01:15:33] And not a beer.

[01:15:34] And I know way too much about the difference.

[01:15:36] Between the two.

[01:15:36] But I shall.

[01:15:37] Pass off the baton to Penny.

[01:15:40] Angel mentions having passed through.

[01:15:42] Missoula, Montana.

[01:15:43] During.

[01:15:44] He says.

[01:15:45] The depression.

[01:15:45] Depression.

[01:15:46] We assume.

[01:15:47] Referencing to.

[01:15:48] The great depression.

[01:15:49] Which was the.

[01:15:50] Period of time.

[01:15:51] In the 1930s.

[01:15:52] In the United States.

[01:15:53] That is called.

[01:15:54] The great depression.

[01:15:55] And then Tina.

[01:15:55] Sort of looks at him.

[01:15:56] Like he's crazy.

[01:15:57] And he's like.

[01:15:57] I mean.

[01:15:58] I was depressed there.

[01:16:00] I love that.

[01:16:01] It's such a funny.

[01:16:02] Moment.

[01:16:03] And such a funny line.

[01:16:04] And then they talk about.

[01:16:05] How there's nothing in.

[01:16:15] Yep.

[01:16:15] Angel tells Doyle.

[01:16:17] That he has been in 14 wars.

[01:16:20] Not counting the Vietnam War.

[01:16:21] Of course.

[01:16:22] Because the U.S.

[01:16:23] Never declared it.

[01:16:24] Which is true.

[01:16:25] There are 14 wars.

[01:16:27] Since Angelus became a vampire.

[01:16:29] In 1753.

[01:16:31] In Ireland.

[01:16:31] In the United States.

[01:16:33] And in the world.

[01:16:34] First.

[01:16:34] We have the Seven Years War.

[01:16:36] Between 1756.

[01:16:37] To 1763.

[01:16:39] Then of course.

[01:16:40] The Irish Rebellion.

[01:16:41] Of 1798.

[01:16:42] Also known as the United Irishmen Rebellion.

[01:16:45] Then the Irish War of Independence.

[01:16:47] From 1919.

[01:16:48] To 1921.

[01:16:49] The Irish Civil War.

[01:16:51] From 1922.

[01:16:52] To 1923.

[01:16:54] The French and Indian War.

[01:16:56] 1754.

[01:16:57] And 1763.

[01:16:58] And the American Revolutionary War.

[01:17:00] From 1775.

[01:17:02] To 1783.

[01:17:03] Those last two.

[01:17:04] Will always remind me.

[01:17:05] Of the Patriot.

[01:17:07] The War of 1812.

[01:17:09] From of course.

[01:17:10] 1812.

[01:17:10] To 1815.

[01:17:12] The Mexican American War.

[01:17:13] From 1846.

[01:17:14] 1846.

[01:17:15] To 1848.

[01:17:16] The American Civil War.

[01:17:18] Which started on my birthday.

[01:17:20] April 12th.

[01:17:20] Of 1861.

[01:17:22] To 1865.

[01:17:24] The Spanish American War.

[01:17:26] In 1898.

[01:17:28] And then of course.

[01:17:29] We've got World War I.

[01:17:30] From 1917.

[01:17:31] To 1918.

[01:17:33] And that's the U.S.

[01:17:34] Involvement.

[01:17:34] In that war.

[01:17:35] And World War II.

[01:17:37] From 1941.

[01:17:38] To 1945.

[01:17:40] Also.

[01:17:40] The U.S.

[01:17:41] Involvement.

[01:17:41] Obviously.

[01:17:42] The war started.

[01:17:43] A bit prior to that.

[01:17:44] Then.

[01:17:45] The Korean War.

[01:17:46] From 1950.

[01:17:47] To 1953.

[01:17:48] And finally.

[01:17:49] The Gulf War.

[01:17:50] From 1990.

[01:17:51] To 1991.

[01:17:53] An angel.

[01:17:54] Assuming he continued.

[01:17:56] Living his life.

[01:17:57] Would be a part of.

[01:17:58] Quite a few more wars.

[01:17:59] After.

[01:18:01] 1999.

[01:18:02] I mean.

[01:18:02] If he participated in them.

[01:18:03] We all.

[01:18:03] We do know also.

[01:18:04] That he was present.

[01:18:06] During the Boxer Rebellion.

[01:18:08] I love that.

[01:18:09] 1899.

[01:18:10] In China.

[01:18:11] Very notable.

[01:18:12] And this is where.

[01:18:13] I think that they were just being.

[01:18:15] Sort of cavalier with this.

[01:18:18] Oh yeah.

[01:18:18] And they literally did what I did.

[01:18:19] When I spent two hours.

[01:18:21] Trying to figure this all out.

[01:18:22] How many wars.

[01:18:24] Yeah.

[01:18:24] Between.

[01:18:25] Yeah.

[01:18:26] Exactly.

[01:18:27] So.

[01:18:28] Because.

[01:18:28] I don't believe in my heart.

[01:18:29] I mean.

[01:18:30] There's parallel things.

[01:18:31] That happen in Ireland.

[01:18:33] Yeah.

[01:18:34] In the United States.

[01:18:34] That happen here.

[01:18:36] It's just.

[01:18:36] When I.

[01:18:37] When I got to the end of this.

[01:18:38] I was like.

[01:18:39] Huh.

[01:18:39] There were 14.

[01:18:40] And I'm like.

[01:18:41] No.

[01:18:41] They couldn't have done this.

[01:18:42] Because this is too simple.

[01:18:43] Do we know what year.

[01:18:45] Angel got his soul.

[01:18:47] Because.

[01:18:48] It seems to me that.

[01:18:50] Traveling around the world.

[01:18:52] Going to different wars.

[01:18:53] Is like a great way.

[01:18:54] For vampires to blend in.

[01:18:56] And get there.

[01:18:57] To eat.

[01:18:58] Right.

[01:18:58] There's tons of victims.

[01:18:59] You can.

[01:19:00] Have dead bodies.

[01:19:01] All over the place.

[01:19:01] And no one will.

[01:19:02] Question you.

[01:19:04] I said.

[01:19:04] A hundred years ago.

[01:19:06] I believe.

[01:19:07] Was when.

[01:19:08] His soul was originally.

[01:19:10] Restored.

[01:19:11] And the curse.

[01:19:12] Was applied.

[01:19:13] So if we.

[01:19:14] Assume that was.

[01:19:15] From 1997.

[01:19:17] Then it would have been.

[01:19:19] 1890s.

[01:19:20] Yeah.

[01:19:21] So.

[01:19:21] The Boxer Rebellion.

[01:19:22] I'm pretty sure.

[01:19:23] We're going to find out.

[01:19:24] That he already had his soul.

[01:19:26] When he was at.

[01:19:26] Taking part in.

[01:19:27] Part of the Boxer.

[01:19:29] Rebellion.

[01:19:29] And I.

[01:19:30] I just think they're.

[01:19:31] They're.

[01:19:31] Oh yeah.

[01:19:32] He would have had to.

[01:19:33] If the timeline actually.

[01:19:34] But they're.

[01:19:35] They're very loose.

[01:19:36] With.

[01:19:37] Because.

[01:19:37] He says.

[01:19:39] He says in that little snippet.

[01:19:40] Of the pilot.

[01:19:41] That five minute thing.

[01:19:42] That they did prior to this show.

[01:19:44] He says he's.

[01:19:46] 244.

[01:19:47] Years old.

[01:19:48] I think he says.

[01:19:49] But.

[01:19:50] I think.

[01:19:50] The math.

[01:19:51] That's not math.

[01:19:52] There's.

[01:19:52] That would probably be reference.

[01:19:53] To him being an actual vampire.

[01:19:55] For 244 years.

[01:19:56] Because.

[01:19:58] I.

[01:19:58] Think.

[01:19:59] In a Buffy episode.

[01:20:00] He says he was born in like.

[01:20:02] 18.

[01:20:05] 17.

[01:20:07] Or something like that.

[01:20:08] And.

[01:20:08] It doesn't add up.

[01:20:09] But he also spent.

[01:20:10] 100 years in a hell dimension.

[01:20:12] Yeah.

[01:20:12] So.

[01:20:13] All right.

[01:20:17] So.

[01:20:17] All right.

[01:20:18] So.

[01:20:19] Angel.

[01:20:20] mentions.

[01:20:21] The American football team.

[01:20:22] The Minnesota Vikings.

[01:20:24] Is playing to lull the guard.

[01:20:25] At the winter.

[01:20:26] At.

[01:20:27] Winter's gate.

[01:20:29] That they're like.

[01:20:30] They're friends.

[01:20:31] And.

[01:20:31] Of course.

[01:20:32] The Minnesota Vikings.

[01:20:32] Are a football team.

[01:20:33] Still there.

[01:20:34] Lots of teams move in Minnesota.

[01:20:36] Which.

[01:20:37] Again.

[01:20:38] Very.

[01:20:40] There's.

[01:20:40] There.

[01:20:40] There is some bro code.

[01:20:42] In.

[01:20:43] Angel.

[01:20:43] That's not.

[01:20:44] There in Buffy.

[01:20:45] That I think.

[01:20:45] We start to see.

[01:20:47] And this is that.

[01:20:48] Because.

[01:20:48] I've never.

[01:20:49] Ever.

[01:20:49] Even after this episode.

[01:20:50] Gotten the impression.

[01:20:51] That Angel gives.

[01:20:52] Two flying.

[01:20:54] Things.

[01:20:54] About.

[01:20:56] Football.

[01:20:56] At least.

[01:20:57] Right.

[01:20:57] American football.

[01:20:58] But he uses it.

[01:20:59] Yeah.

[01:20:59] Yeah.

[01:21:00] So.

[01:21:00] It's.

[01:21:01] It's a very.

[01:21:01] It seems to me.

[01:21:02] To be very performative.

[01:21:03] And maybe that was the point.

[01:21:05] Yeah.

[01:21:06] And then.

[01:21:06] We've already talked.

[01:21:07] A little bit about this.

[01:21:08] But.

[01:21:09] Angel drives.

[01:21:09] A black.

[01:21:10] 1968.

[01:21:11] Plymouth Belvedere.

[01:21:12] GTX.

[01:21:13] Convertible.

[01:21:14] It's beautiful.

[01:21:16] And huge.

[01:21:17] It's a huge car.

[01:21:19] They're.

[01:21:20] My son loves this model of car.

[01:21:22] So I know a lot about it.

[01:21:23] It's a fantastic car.

[01:21:25] That's been used in.

[01:21:27] Numerous.

[01:21:28] Numerous things.

[01:21:28] That.

[01:21:28] It's shown up in Buffy as well.

[01:21:30] Not just Angel's car either.

[01:21:32] There's been a couple of other ones.

[01:21:33] That have shown up.

[01:21:34] So.

[01:21:34] Yeah.

[01:21:35] It's a beautiful car.

[01:21:36] All right.

[01:21:37] Now.

[01:21:37] There's so much fun trivia.

[01:21:40] We're going to hop into.

[01:21:41] Penny.

[01:21:42] We'll start with you.

[01:21:42] With trivia.

[01:21:43] There's just so many fun little things.

[01:21:44] About this show.

[01:21:46] So.

[01:21:46] So.

[01:21:46] In the opening credit sequence of every episode.

[01:21:49] There is an image of a woman standing by the side of a street.

[01:21:52] Looking all.

[01:21:53] Forlorn and decrepit.

[01:21:55] Young woman.

[01:21:56] This is not actually taken from any episode of Angel.

[01:21:58] But rather it's from the Buffy episode.

[01:22:00] And.

[01:22:01] 1998.

[01:22:02] Though the scene takes place in the show's setting of Los Angeles.

[01:22:05] So.

[01:22:06] So.

[01:22:07] Josh Holloway.

[01:22:07] Which we mentioned earlier.

[01:22:09] Appears as a vampire in the opening scene.

[01:22:11] And he would.

[01:22:12] Of course.

[01:22:13] Go on to become a star in Lost.

[01:22:15] Just five years later.

[01:22:17] It.

[01:22:17] This episode.

[01:22:18] Happened to mark his very first TV appearance.

[01:22:21] Tracy Middendorf.

[01:22:23] Also appears in this episode.

[01:22:25] As Tina.

[01:22:25] And.

[01:22:26] As we know.

[01:22:28] On Lost.

[01:22:28] Holloway.

[01:22:29] Holloway played.

[01:22:30] Regular series character Sawyer.

[01:22:32] And Middendorf.

[01:22:33] Darth played Bonnie in the final three episodes of season three.

[01:22:37] Otherwise known as the episodes that absolutely ripped my heart to shreds.

[01:22:41] Oh yeah.

[01:22:42] If you.

[01:22:43] Are a Lost fan.

[01:22:46] And it's very interesting that several series regulars and extras happen to be on both Lost

[01:22:52] and Angel.

[01:22:53] So that'll be fun to keep track of.

[01:22:54] That always makes me think that there was somebody in the casting department of both shows.

[01:23:00] Like somebody or like similar management or something.

[01:23:04] Like there was some kind of crossover behind the scenes.

[01:23:06] Well I've.

[01:23:07] Often I think that like Weedon and Abrams are like connected in some way.

[01:23:13] And they're not really.

[01:23:14] Other than being sort of.

[01:23:16] You know Abrams I think at the time was doing Alias.

[01:23:20] So I think they were just around at the same time doing the same sorts of things.

[01:23:24] And then kind of launched into big production companies from that.

[01:23:28] So.

[01:23:28] Thank you.

[01:23:29] This one I was going to mention in notes.

[01:23:33] But I.

[01:23:33] The prosthetics that were used in Angel.

[01:23:37] Except for Angel.

[01:23:39] Were different than they used in Buffy.

[01:23:42] There was a new.

[01:23:43] Newly created prototype for this episode.

[01:23:46] This the production team wanted to try a darker scarier look.

[01:23:49] The faces were puffier and colored differently.

[01:23:53] However they were extremely unhappy with the effects.

[01:23:56] Thank goodness they were.

[01:23:58] And soon returned to the Buffy style.

[01:24:00] Vamp faces.

[01:24:01] I don't think.

[01:24:03] I don't think they last.

[01:24:04] Past this episode in my brain.

[01:24:07] I just remember.

[01:24:08] I was like what is going on.

[01:24:10] Because.

[01:24:11] The main.

[01:24:11] Winters his face was.

[01:24:14] Yeah.

[01:24:15] Josh Holloway.

[01:24:16] When Josh Holloway vamped.

[01:24:17] I was like.

[01:24:18] I was like oh.

[01:24:20] Like okay.

[01:24:21] Let's not do that.

[01:24:23] So yeah.

[01:24:24] I'm glad they figured out that didn't work.

[01:24:26] I don't know if they tested it.

[01:24:27] Or just looked at it.

[01:24:28] What are we doing?

[01:24:29] Yeah.

[01:24:30] Too late to change it for the pilot.

[01:24:31] But.

[01:24:32] Yeah.

[01:24:32] Exactly.

[01:24:33] When this episode originally aired.

[01:24:35] It followed the freshmen.

[01:24:37] On the same night.

[01:24:38] It was directly after it.

[01:24:40] At 29 minutes into the earlier program.

[01:24:43] In Buffy.

[01:24:43] She answers the telephone.

[01:24:45] And says hello.

[01:24:46] Hello.

[01:24:46] But no one responds.

[01:24:47] And she hangs up.

[01:24:48] At 41 minutes into this episode.

[01:24:51] Angel makes a phone call.

[01:24:52] And Buffy's voice at the other end says hello.

[01:24:54] Hello.

[01:24:54] And Angel hangs up without speaking.

[01:24:56] So.

[01:24:56] That's the nice little connection.

[01:24:58] Between the two shows.

[01:24:59] So sad.

[01:25:01] So lonely.

[01:25:02] I'm glad that that was it.

[01:25:04] Yeah.

[01:25:05] That was enough.

[01:25:05] They didn't pour the two shows in together like they could have.

[01:25:09] They waited.

[01:25:09] Subtle.

[01:25:10] Yeah.

[01:25:10] That is nice.

[01:25:11] And this one.

[01:25:12] We mentioned a little bit about this earlier.

[01:25:14] But David Greenwald and Joss Whedon say in the DVD commentary for this episode.

[01:25:19] That the scene of Angel slipping off the bar stool and walking through the bar.

[01:25:23] With that overhead shot of the ceiling fans was inspired by John Woo films.

[01:25:29] And you can definitely tell that that is the inspiration for that moment.

[01:25:35] Yeah.

[01:25:35] They keep that motif too through the series which I like.

[01:25:39] So again we talked a little bit about this.

[01:25:41] The first draft of the shooting script featured the character of Whistler playing the part of Angel's mentor rather than Doyle.

[01:25:48] This was changed when Max Perlitz became unavailable.

[01:25:52] He was reprising a role he had created on Homicide Life on the Street for a TV movie.

[01:25:57] They ended up hiring.

[01:25:58] And I love that they hired Glenn Quinn for that role because I actually prefer him as that character.

[01:26:08] I think he has more chemistry with both David Boreanaz and Deep Charisma.

[01:26:14] Do you think they picked him because he was Irish?

[01:26:16] I don't think it hurt.

[01:26:18] I wonder how much of a role it played.

[01:26:21] It's never been a thing for me but the more I was thinking about it today.

[01:26:25] Maybe the reason why that Angel was more in tune with him is because he was from Ireland.

[01:26:31] I don't know.

[01:26:32] Just a thought.

[01:26:33] He accepted him more easily.

[01:26:36] I could see that.

[01:26:38] Yeah.

[01:26:38] So this was the only episode directly novelized unlike the many collections of Buffy the Vampire Slayer episode novelizations of the TV series Angel.

[01:26:50] However, the novel actually contains several scenes not in this episode including flashbacks of Angel's backstory that were similar to later flashbacks in the episodes The Prodigal and Darla.

[01:27:04] Can't wait.

[01:27:05] Apparently, Angel's human name Liam had not been established when it was written as he is referred to as Master Angelus during the flashbacks.

[01:27:14] That's not a huge spoiler.

[01:27:15] I think we know that he's Liam.

[01:27:18] Yeah.

[01:27:18] Yeah.

[01:27:20] According to the book Into Every Generation a Slayer is Born, Sarah Michelle Gellar surprised David Boreanaz by showing up while the cameras were rolling on the street of Los Angeles and quoted a line from Pretty Woman at him.

[01:27:33] Welcome to Hollywood.

[01:27:34] What's your dream?

[01:27:35] Everybody comes here.

[01:27:36] This is Hollywood, land of dreams.

[01:27:38] That's hilarious.

[01:27:39] I so wish that was on film.

[01:27:40] That would be amazing.

[01:27:41] I know.

[01:27:42] That's really, really funny.

[01:27:43] I love her.

[01:27:44] The following are two stage directions from the script for this episode.

[01:27:49] The first one, a woman's laugh draws Angel's gaze to three good-looking guys shooting cool with two good-looking young women, all caps, nearby.

[01:27:59] They're laughing, having a good time.

[01:28:02] One of the guys gets behind one of the women, Janice, who may resemble Buffy, helping her line up a shot.

[01:28:09] And Angel leaps over the last car and, cool action hero that he is, lands in a convertible.

[01:28:16] Problem is, it's the wrong convertible.

[01:28:19] What a great, I just, it had, I could see that scene getting cut out of so many different things.

[01:28:27] Yeah.

[01:28:28] And the fact that they just put that in there to let us know how flawed Angel is.

[01:28:32] Perfect.

[01:28:32] Yeah.

[01:28:33] And just like a little hint that like, this show is gonna have a sense of humor.

[01:28:38] Yes.

[01:28:38] It's cheeky.

[01:28:39] It's not just darkness.

[01:28:40] Yeah.

[01:28:40] It may be dark, but it's cheeky.

[01:28:43] And then finally, in the original script for the Angel episode, City of, Angel was going to taste Tina's blood after her death, but the scene was cut.

[01:28:54] Yay.

[01:28:54] It was, right?

[01:28:55] The intention was to show that Angel is really on the edge, but it was decided that it was enough that he wasn't able to save Tina.

[01:29:03] And I am so happy they cut that scene.

[01:29:05] Yeah, that would have really upset me.

[01:29:07] Yep.

[01:29:08] Ugh.

[01:29:10] All right.

[01:29:10] So, in continuation with our Still Slaying podcast, Kara, does it still slay?

[01:29:21] I think it does.

[01:29:23] And kind of like you said, Jim, talking about the episode more has made me like it more.

[01:29:29] I've always thought it was super successful as a pilot because it ties in Buffy, but not too much.

[01:29:35] And it establishes everything so well, but I think it definitely still slays and is a very successful first episode.

[01:29:43] Penny?

[01:29:45] I agree completely that it's a very successful pilot and that talking about it makes me like it more than I have in the past.

[01:29:55] I think it's not as good as Angel is going to be when we get further in, but it does everything it needs to do and it does it well.

[01:30:06] And it only had a couple of moments that seemed really dated to me.

[01:30:11] Like the stiffener thing.

[01:30:12] That's true.

[01:30:14] I was all set to say no.

[01:30:16] And then we did this podcast.

[01:30:18] So, does it still slay for me?

[01:30:21] Of course it does.

[01:30:23] Yeah.

[01:30:24] Of course it does.

[01:30:25] Which is, what's going to come out throughout the series specifically is that this really was my full like entrance into the Buffyverse.

[01:30:35] I mean, I watched Buffy prior to this, but this was, this was the show I watched regularly before I watched Buffy regularly.

[01:30:42] It was hit and miss for me.

[01:30:43] Oh yeah.

[01:30:44] That's right.

[01:30:44] Our watch, our watch through was the first time I watched him continuously through.

[01:30:48] So I love this series so much.

[01:30:51] I don't remember this pilot at all.

[01:30:54] I don't think I've seen it since I initially watched it.

[01:30:57] So it does still slay just not as much as the rest.

[01:31:00] I agree with you, Penny.

[01:31:02] All right, guys, let's head over to the bronze where we have our very first feedback to Angel and y'all.

[01:31:08] Come on, get some feedback in.

[01:31:10] Yay.

[01:31:11] Of course, our main man, Steve Brown has some feedback for us.

[01:31:14] He said he wasn't going to get any in and then realized that we were not running this for four more days.

[01:31:19] So here's Steve Brown.

[01:32:12] Amen.

[01:32:13] Hey.

[01:32:14] Thanks, Steve.

[01:32:15] That's so sweet.

[01:32:19] Oh, the good news is you've got plenty of time to catch up.

[01:32:21] We're going to catch up on everything because we're alternating from week to week.

[01:32:24] So if you get behind in one, you can always get caught up in that one the following week.

[01:32:31] All right.

[01:32:32] So that is the end of our main section of the podcast.

[01:32:36] Stay tuned for Watchers Diaries if you want to hear the spoilery section, which I think I have a lot more than I thought I did.

[01:32:43] Yeah.

[01:32:45] And if you'd like to join the conversation, you can find all our contact information at podcastica.com and in the show notes for every episode.

[01:32:54] And also while you're over at podcastica.com, you'll find links to like our social media pages and all the other podcast shows.

[01:33:03] There are tons of them.

[01:33:06] There is a Walking Dead rewatch going on on the cast of us that's really fun.

[01:33:12] There's a group covering Skeleton Crew, the new Star Wars show on Star Wars TV cast.

[01:33:17] I haven't started that yet because I have only watched like half of one episode of that show.

[01:33:23] And as I mentioned earlier, Jim and I covered Agatha all along.

[01:33:28] All of that is available for you.

[01:33:30] And we had such a good time.

[01:33:32] And if you like Buffy, I guarantee you'll like Agatha.

[01:33:35] So check that out.

[01:33:37] Similar vibe.

[01:33:38] I wanted to plug Run for Your Lives, another podcastica podcast with Pink and Daphne.

[01:33:44] They just recently released an episode covering the movie The Substance, which was a very interesting body horror film that was released.

[01:33:54] And I know I found it really compelling.

[01:33:58] Penny, I think you mentioned you did too.

[01:34:00] And I know Sam did.

[01:34:02] We all watched it kind of at the same time, the three of us.

[01:34:06] I saw it in the theater and I came home and I was like, I just saw The Substance, you guys.

[01:34:11] It's like, I don't know even what to say about it.

[01:34:14] And Sam's like, I just started watching it.

[01:34:17] And then Kara's like, how do I get it?

[01:34:19] And then like, so you two were watching it and I had already watched it and I was getting text messages throughout.

[01:34:24] It was a very funny evening.

[01:34:26] It is an interesting movie.

[01:34:29] Yeah.

[01:34:30] And I think it's worth watching, especially if you're a woman, but everyone needs to see it.

[01:34:36] Or a feminist.

[01:34:36] Yeah.

[01:34:37] Yes.

[01:34:37] Watch it.

[01:34:38] I'll be watching it tonight.

[01:34:39] All right.

[01:34:40] That's Amazon Prime, right?

[01:34:41] To get the stream of consciousness Jim text.

[01:34:45] While you're watching that movie.

[01:34:47] Yeah.

[01:34:47] That's going to be really fun.

[01:34:48] Well, like, I don't know if I should follow that up with this, but I mean, Cobra Kai cast.

[01:34:54] Like I.

[01:34:55] Yeah.

[01:34:55] Yeah.

[01:34:56] I just, if you want.

[01:34:58] And it feels very much like a three-step sendoff of something that I grew up.

[01:35:06] Jason and I are the same age and kind of grew up in, I think on different sides of the coin of the Karate Kid.

[01:35:12] He absolutely loves the Raph Machio character.

[01:35:14] And I love, I've always loved Johnny.

[01:35:17] So, so it's kind of fun kind of walking through this series that has paid such amazing homage to all of the movies, including the bad ones that again, kind of like our podcasting has made some of the bad ones even better.

[01:35:34] Sometimes better good and sometimes better bad.

[01:35:36] But I think the podcast is amazing.

[01:35:39] And this most recent podcast they did, which is this, the, the mid part finale, which was an amazing episode, one of the best episodes of Cobra Kai that I highly recommend listening to.

[01:35:53] They do a fantastic job with that.

[01:35:56] And of course, if you like what we do, give us a five-star rating, a review or a like, a follow and subscribe.

[01:36:03] Next time we'll be covering Buffy season four, episode two, living conditions.

[01:36:09] Thanks everyone.

[01:36:11] And I don't want to share my feelings.

[01:36:14] I don't want to open up.

[01:36:15] I want to find the guy that killed Tina and I want to look him in the eye.

[01:36:20] Then what?

[01:36:22] Then I'm going to share my feelings.

[01:36:25] All right.

[01:36:26] All right.

[01:36:27] That's the end of the non-spoiler section.

[01:36:30] If you want to avoid spoilers, you should stop listening now.

[01:36:37] Yep.

[01:36:38] Yep.

[01:36:38] Yep.

[01:36:39] Yep.

[01:36:40] Oh, goodness.

[01:36:41] Awesome.

[01:36:42] All right.

[01:36:42] First of all, Wolfram and Hart, we're going to have so many more moments with Wolfram and Hart in the next five seasons.

[01:36:53] And they are one of the best villains on like any science fiction TV show.

[01:37:01] And I'm not just saying that because I am a lawyer because usually I hate TV lawyers, but I find the whole shtick of like a law firm that represents demons and evil beings to be hilarious.

[01:37:17] And Lindsay is an amazing character.

[01:37:21] He, that actor is so charismatic.

[01:37:22] We also get to find out later in the show that he's a great singer.

[01:37:27] He is.

[01:37:28] And then soon we're going to get to meet Lila Morgan.

[01:37:31] And I love Lila in a way that is not rational.

[01:37:35] I love her.

[01:37:37] She's evil, but I love her.

[01:37:41] Gosh.

[01:37:42] Fun fact.

[01:37:43] I have seen Christian Cain in concert before.

[01:37:46] Oh, yeah.

[01:37:47] That's cool.

[01:37:48] In Austin.

[01:37:49] And it was amazing.

[01:37:50] I was hoping I could stalk him a little bit and like at least get an autograph or mention something.

[01:37:57] But he got out of there pretty quickly.

[01:37:59] But I was fangirling really hard the entire time.

[01:38:03] I just love him so much.

[01:38:04] And he is someone from Texas who is not problematic.

[01:38:07] And that makes me love him even more.

[01:38:10] Yeah.

[01:38:11] And he's just, he is so damn charismatic.

[01:38:14] It's ridiculous.

[01:38:16] And watching the dynamic between him and Lila is one of my favorite parts of Angel.

[01:38:22] And Wolfram in the Heart, I cannot wait until we start getting more into those episodes.

[01:38:30] And I love that the pilot kind of, you know, intentionally, I'm pretty sure bookends the episode with subtle references or not so subtle references to the powers that be.

[01:38:43] Because we learn in the very beginning that Doyle gets his visions from them.

[01:38:47] And then we end at Wolfram in Heart.

[01:38:50] And it's just kind of this little nod as to where the story is going.

[01:38:55] Yeah.

[01:38:55] I think it makes the script a really good, tight script.

[01:39:00] The powers that be is a phrase that I, that entered my vocabulary.

[01:39:06] And I say it sometimes to mean, like, I used to use it all the time in my corporate job to mean like, you know, the executives and the board members.

[01:39:14] The higher ups.

[01:39:15] The powers.

[01:39:16] The powers that be.

[01:39:17] And I would say, you know, the powers that be have decided we're going to go in this direction or whatever.

[01:39:21] And people would always be like, what are you talking about?

[01:39:23] And I'd be like, how is that phrase not self-explanatory?

[01:39:26] I know.

[01:39:27] But then I would say like, oh, I just mean, and I would have to like give the long explanation.

[01:39:31] Like, I mean the board and the execs.

[01:39:33] And they'd be like, why didn't you just say that?

[01:39:34] I'd be like.

[01:39:35] I used that phrase.

[01:39:36] Because I'm a nerd.

[01:39:37] Last night.

[01:39:39] Last night.

[01:39:40] Like, it's, it's that corporate speak is kind of stuck.

[01:39:45] And I would sometimes just, I would say PTB.

[01:39:48] And that would really upset people.

[01:39:50] They'd be like, we don't know what you're talking about.

[01:39:53] I just.

[01:39:54] I love that.

[01:39:57] This series has continuous.

[01:40:02] The arc is continuous throughout the series.

[01:40:05] And you can tell there was some of it was discovery and some of it was just pre-written.

[01:40:10] But I think one of the main things that differs between the two series is that this show does have that kind of continuous powers that be that kind of flows through.

[01:40:20] And of course, Wilferman Hart.

[01:40:22] I can't.

[01:40:23] I can't.

[01:40:24] Now.

[01:40:25] Now, I mean, it sounds, I don't know how dumb I was in 1999.

[01:40:29] But now when I see it, I literally out loud will say, Wilfram and Hart.

[01:40:33] And I just.

[01:40:34] Yeah.

[01:40:35] It never occurred to me.

[01:40:36] Not once.

[01:40:37] And I, I remember when I watched it the other day and I said it out loud.

[01:40:41] My daughter's like, what are you talking?

[01:40:42] What are you talking about?

[01:40:44] And I'm just like, oh, never mind.

[01:40:45] You're like, no, that comes late in season three.

[01:40:49] Early season three, I think is that revelation or late in season two.

[01:40:53] I don't know.

[01:40:53] I really can't remember.

[01:40:55] I can't remember which season is which story, but we'll get there.

[01:40:58] The fact that we end up, you know, the thing that you can't see is that, you know, eventually, you know, our, our little angel investigators become the heads of Wilferman Hart at one point.

[01:41:08] That is such a weird twist and somehow they made it work.

[01:41:12] It's amazing.

[01:41:13] It's just the, the, the, the depths that they go in the series and the, and really a short turn of, you know, it's should have been a lot longer, but we'll get to that.

[01:41:25] Yeah.

[01:41:25] It's just a, a really an amazing piece to all of this, but gosh, Christian Kane.

[01:41:30] I, he, again, you want to talk about like Wilferman Hart and how they had different heads of the table, I guess, so to speak.

[01:41:43] And, you know, how different characters were vying for that.

[01:41:49] And yeah, they're so power hungry.

[01:41:52] These people who work for Wilferman Hart are so ambitious that they're competing with each other constantly.

[01:41:58] The backstabbing inside of Wilferman Hart, having worked at a big corporate law firm.

[01:42:04] Let me tell you, very realistic, very realistic.

[01:42:09] We get, we, we get mentioned the senior partners for the very first time in this episode, just kind of an offhanded thing in the phone call when Lindsay mentions that.

[01:42:19] Of course, we don't know his name is Lindsay yet.

[01:42:20] I'm super, super curious as to how deep Christian Kane's role was supposed to be and what it turned into.

[01:42:28] Because as he is the only other character other than Angel who makes it to the last episode, makes it to the last episode.

[01:42:40] Right.

[01:42:41] He's in the premiere and the finale.

[01:42:43] Yeah.

[01:42:43] So, so I, I just, and I was so happy about that.

[01:42:46] And of course, and I don't even want to spoil in the spoiler section, but his character takes such interesting turns throughout where we get to see him in so many.

[01:43:00] Yeah.

[01:43:01] Yeah.

[01:43:01] So many different roles of being enemies and friends.

[01:43:06] He gets to play.

[01:43:07] It must have been such a great experience for him as an actor for his first big role where he gets to play.

[01:43:16] Lindsay going through massive character changes, ups and downs.

[01:43:22] He gets to be hurt.

[01:43:23] He gets to be vulnerable.

[01:43:24] He gets to do action.

[01:43:25] He gets to sing.

[01:43:26] Like there's so many aspects of Lindsay as the season goes on.

[01:43:31] Sort of parallel to Angel and Buffy.

[01:43:34] Yeah.

[01:43:34] He gets a murder hand, right?

[01:43:37] Like he gets so many great plots.

[01:43:38] Oh yeah.

[01:43:39] How did I forget about that?

[01:43:41] I remember he loses his, his arm and I'm like, well, what are we doing with that now?

[01:43:46] And then I was like, oh, yeah.

[01:43:48] Yeah.

[01:43:48] Awesome.

[01:43:49] He's got a murder hand.

[01:43:50] He's got a murder hand.

[01:43:51] So awesome.

[01:43:52] Of course he does.

[01:43:53] Yeah.

[01:43:54] I, and, um, another lost actor, Daniel Day Kim is going to show up as another Wolfman Hart lawyer.

[01:43:59] And I, oh, I love his Wolfman Hart lawyer character.

[01:44:02] Oh, so great.

[01:44:04] So there's just, there's just nonstop fun to be had poking fun at lawyers.

[01:44:11] And I am so here for it because I had so many years of suffering as a lawyer.

[01:44:17] You know, the last time I watched this fully once like the Wolfman Hart episodes, I had not yet graduated from law school.

[01:44:26] So I'm kind of excited.

[01:44:28] You're going to have all, and you, and then you went into being a prosecutor and now you're at a law firm.

[01:44:33] So you have a whole new perspective that you didn't have then.

[01:44:36] Very wide range.

[01:44:37] And I, I, I was a summer associate two years in a row at big law firms and absolutely hated it.

[01:44:44] So I'm, I'm curious to see how I react now.

[01:44:49] It'll be fun.

[01:44:50] Oh my God.

[01:44:51] And, um, Cordelia is going to go through tons of changes.

[01:44:55] I loved seeing her current apartment and what a dump it was.

[01:44:59] I know.

[01:45:00] Cause I, is it, it's like, it's just a couple of episodes from now that she's going to get her new apartment with Dennis.

[01:45:07] And I, it's one of my favorite side characters in the show is Dennis.

[01:45:11] I love Dennis.

[01:45:12] I was so, I was like, is, is Dennis going to show up in this?

[01:45:15] And I was like, no, no, he comes later, much later.

[01:45:17] Cause she gets a much, no pun intended, sunnier, sunnier apartment.

[01:45:21] Yeah.

[01:45:22] She gets a, she gets a better place.

[01:45:23] I, I can't, I'm so here for her character changes and arc.

[01:45:27] I get so lovable.

[01:45:29] Yeah.

[01:45:29] Well, and, and I, we're so far away from it, years away from it, possibly where the end of her arc is such a, I, especially now that we kind of know kind of the backstory of that.

[01:45:42] And the, the amazing part about this episode.

[01:45:46] And I think the thing that I struggle with the most is there's so many colorful characters in the series.

[01:45:53] We have demons we haven't met yet.

[01:45:56] And we have kids that are yet to come.

[01:45:59] Characters like Lorne.

[01:46:01] Yes.

[01:46:02] And I, that's what was missing.

[01:46:05] And just so many different locales.

[01:46:07] Yeah.

[01:46:08] That, that make this such a different, like Buffy always seems to be struggling with, they can't, you know, like Buffy has to keep going back to school because that's where the hell mouth is.

[01:46:19] Whereas this show is untethered by that.

[01:46:22] And, and we get to see that play out.

[01:46:24] And, and we have puppets yet to come too.

[01:46:27] So I.

[01:46:28] Oh my God.

[01:46:29] The puppet episode.

[01:46:30] That one's so cute.

[01:46:32] And, and I guess one of the funnier things to me today when I was thinking about this episode is that, you know, he says to Cordy, you know, you can't cure being a vampire.

[01:46:46] And I'm pretty sure it's like midway through season one.

[01:46:50] Oh yeah.

[01:46:50] He gets cured.

[01:46:52] Yeah.

[01:46:52] Well, he gets offered the cure, right?

[01:46:54] He gets cured and then he has to turn back time.

[01:46:57] Yeah.

[01:46:58] Yeah.

[01:46:58] Which is like a soul shattering episode.

[01:47:03] Oh.

[01:47:04] Yeah.

[01:47:04] It's so heartbreaking.

[01:47:06] It's unbelievable.

[01:47:07] And I can't wait to get there.

[01:47:09] Cordy says it like, she's like, so are you still grr?

[01:47:13] Like the way she asked him.

[01:47:15] It's so cute.

[01:47:16] And he's like, yeah, you can't cure this, Cordy.

[01:47:20] And then she's like, but you're not here to bite people, right?

[01:47:22] Like, cause she remembers when he turned evil.

[01:47:26] She was there for that.

[01:47:27] She knows exactly how scary that is.

[01:47:29] Well, but for people that weren't so, like for me, it let me know who Cordy was.

[01:47:37] Yeah.

[01:47:37] Even though I'd seen Cordy before.

[01:47:39] For somebody who wasn't paying as much attention as I have been through our rewatch.

[01:47:44] Um, let me know who Cordy, this show really did a nice job introducing us to Angel and Cordy.

[01:47:50] Yeah.

[01:47:51] To be fair.

[01:47:52] Like Cordy's whole, like, I'm living in Malibu.

[01:47:54] It's a good place to start.

[01:47:55] And then you see her actual apartment and you're like, oh, I see what's happening.

[01:48:00] Oh, her acting career is not taking off.

[01:48:02] She hasn't like, and she puts on this brave front and you realize she never really lies.

[01:48:07] She's like, I've had a lot of opportunities.

[01:48:10] Like she doesn't.

[01:48:10] Yeah.

[01:48:11] Um, and, and she puts on this really happy, cheerful face and inside she's sort of tragic.

[01:48:17] And it makes you love her so much.

[01:48:21] If she really were in a nice condo on the beach, you'd hate her.

[01:48:24] Yeah.

[01:48:25] It was a smart way to set everything up.

[01:48:28] Yeah.

[01:48:30] Oh my God.

[01:48:31] I'm excited for what's to come.

[01:48:32] I'm really excited about it.

[01:48:33] I'm so happy that we're here.

[01:48:35] It's felt like a distant, like off in the distance for so long, even while we were doing

[01:48:40] Agatha.

[01:48:41] Yeah.

[01:48:41] Uh, you know, you'd sent out the schedule, but I'm so happy that we're here and I'm so

[01:48:45] excited to go through this rewatch with y'all and Sam as well.

[01:48:49] And I don't, I just like, we have this wonderful team here of, of people that, that I absolutely

[01:48:54] adore.

[01:48:55] And it's going to be so much fun going through this with our guest hosts and with our current

[01:49:00] hosts.

[01:49:00] And, uh, both of these series are really heading into just a wonderful place.

[01:49:06] So, um, Spike.

[01:49:08] Can't wait.

[01:49:08] Yes!

[01:49:09] Spike!

[01:49:10] Go soon.

[01:49:11] So soon.

[01:49:13] I checked and it's episode three of season four of Buffy and episode three of season one

[01:49:19] of Angel.

[01:49:20] So we're going to get two Spike episodes in a row.

[01:49:22] And episode three and episode like, uh, uh, uh, cause it's Spike and I think we get, uh,

[01:49:29] Oz.

[01:49:30] Yeah.

[01:49:31] Which I love.

[01:49:32] I think that these two shows handle the interaction so well.

[01:49:40] It becomes less and less about Buffy and more and more just about the universe and how they

[01:49:48] handle Buffy in the last season is so awesome.

[01:49:53] And I can't wait to get there, but that's got years down the road.

[01:49:56] All right.

[01:49:57] We could go on forever, but that is the absolute positive, complete end of our show.

[01:50:03] Thanks so much for listening everyone.

[01:50:06] And until next time, I'm Jim.

[01:50:08] And I'm Penny.

[01:50:10] And I'm Kara.

[01:50:11] Keep slaying!