41: “Lonely Heart” (Angel S1E2)

[00:00:00] Hmm?

[00:00:01] Ah!

[00:00:03] Oh...

[00:00:32] It's frustrating, isn't it?

[00:00:34] Not being able to connect, to love like other people.

[00:00:37] I mean, how do you get him to trust you, Angel?

[00:00:39] Give him the big dark eyes that I'm not good with talk speech?

[00:00:43] Look, he gives them what they're longing for.

[00:00:45] And that is?

[00:00:46] Hope.

[00:00:46] That their loneliness might end and he's gonna keep doing it again and-

[00:00:49] Unless I let you go so you can stop him.

[00:00:52] Save me the lines.

[00:00:53] I've heard him.

[00:00:54] Yeah, I've heard yours.

[00:00:55] Something about not being able to trust people?

[00:00:58] Turn around.

[00:00:58] Hello, everybody.

[00:01:26] Welcome to Still Slaying, a Buffy-verse podcast.

[00:01:29] I'm Penny.

[00:01:30] And I'm Sam.

[00:01:32] And I'm Kara.

[00:01:34] For this episode, we're going to be discussing Season 1, Episode 2 of Angel, titled Lonely

[00:01:40] Heart, written by David Fury and directed by James A. Conner.

[00:01:44] The episode originally aired on October the 12th, 1999 to an audience of 3.9 million households,

[00:01:51] gaining a slight uptick of viewers from Buffy Season 4, Episode 2, Living Conditions, that aired directly before it, which had 3.8 million households.

[00:02:02] Some alternative titles in other languages for this episode were Angel Teams Up in French.

[00:02:10] That's awful.

[00:02:11] Like, okay.

[00:02:12] Yeah.

[00:02:13] And Lonely Hearts Club in Hungarian.

[00:02:16] I like that one.

[00:02:17] That one's fine.

[00:02:18] It's very literal, too.

[00:02:20] Yes.

[00:02:21] Yes, it is.

[00:02:23] Before we get into the conversation, I, in my memory, I thought this episode was kind of boring.

[00:02:31] And I was like, oh, you know, we'll cover it, but whatever.

[00:02:37] Kind of like the same way that I remembered Living Conditions that we did last week as not that interesting.

[00:02:43] And then once I got into it, there was so much to talk about.

[00:02:48] Pretty dense.

[00:02:49] Yeah.

[00:02:49] There's a lot going on.

[00:02:50] There's a lot there.

[00:02:51] Yes.

[00:02:52] So I was very pleasantly surprised by the episode.

[00:02:56] How about you guys?

[00:02:58] Yeah.

[00:02:58] I felt the same way.

[00:03:00] I didn't remember this one at all at first.

[00:03:04] I was like, which one is this?

[00:03:05] When I saw the title and then getting into it, I was like, oh, okay, it's this one.

[00:03:11] And then I was pleasantly surprised as it kept going.

[00:03:14] I completely forgot the introduction of Kate happening here.

[00:03:20] Same.

[00:03:20] I thought that was fun to see.

[00:03:22] And it's just nice starting to see, you know, get into the swing of things and set up how things are going to operate going forward.

[00:03:32] Yeah, same.

[00:03:34] I remember not really loving this episode and I haven't watched this one in a very long time.

[00:03:40] And watching it as like a 14 year old versus watching it as a 40 year old, very different life experiences.

[00:03:48] That is true.

[00:03:50] Yeah.

[00:03:51] And I really appreciated the relatability to some of this.

[00:03:58] And yeah, I found it very lighthearted.

[00:04:02] Like this was clearly a back to back lighthearted Buffy Angel night that is not very common in the series.

[00:04:10] So I, I, I, yeah, I ended up enjoying it a lot more than I remembered ever liking it.

[00:04:16] And it's, it's such a nice thing.

[00:04:20] Like, especially when you think about Buffy dealing with, okay, they're out of high school and she's dealing with her college roommate and the growing pains that come with being off at college.

[00:04:30] And then you have Angel and Cordelia in particular dealing with life in the big city and being out on your own and all of these other singles in Los Angeles.

[00:04:41] And it's just nice to see Angel take on a storyline that Buffy really could not do.

[00:04:49] Like, it's just not the right environment for it.

[00:04:51] And I just, I love how they knew the tone of the show from the beginning.

[00:04:57] They knew exactly who they were.

[00:04:59] They wrote to it and it just, it works so well.

[00:05:02] I'm glad you brought up the tone of the show.

[00:05:05] I wanted to talk a little bit about film noir and the very clear influence that it has on, on the show.

[00:05:14] So there's debate in the film academic community.

[00:05:18] Is it a genre?

[00:05:19] Is it a style?

[00:05:20] I don't really care about that, but it refers to films that have a certain set of characteristics.

[00:05:28] So the sort of classic noir films were primarily in the forties and fifties in Hollywood.

[00:05:36] And they're known for being about murder and crime and mysteries.

[00:05:41] They're known for being about dark moral topics and investigating sort of like the darker side of humanity.

[00:05:49] They are known for the low key lighting, a lot of things shot at night in darkness, a lot of dramatic shadows.

[00:05:59] And they are often based on quote,

[00:06:03] Pulp fiction, which refers to a series of books that were printed on the cheapest paper possible.

[00:06:11] That was like pulp paper and became to be known as Pulp fiction.

[00:06:16] And, and, and pulp fiction generally, they were like crimes book crime stories and romance stories, things that were a little more sensational and, and, you know, craft easy reads.

[00:06:27] Yeah. Lightweight.

[00:06:28] And, uh, the sort of most famous film noirs that people think of are like Maltese Falcon, double indemnity, movies like that from the forties.

[00:06:38] Uh, it's highly influenced by the German expressionist style.

[00:06:42] And one of the most famous films of that genre is a film called M that I highly recommend.

[00:06:48] If you haven't seen it, it's about, um, there's like a pedophile on the loose and all the people of this town are chasing him all over the city.

[00:06:56] And it's, it's fiction.

[00:07:02] Yeah, it is.

[00:07:03] And, um,

[00:07:04] Have you seen Broadchurch?

[00:07:06] Yeah.

[00:07:07] Yeah.

[00:07:08] That's very noir-ish.

[00:07:10] So, noir is a really popular genre.

[00:07:13] I took a class on it in college and it was like one of my favorite classes I took because it's, it's got an inherent coolness to it.

[00:07:21] And lots and lots of films after the noir period are, have, um, been inspired by noir and some that are sort of famously noir are like Blade Runners, like sci-fi noir.

[00:07:36] Mm-hmm.

[00:07:36] There's a lot of crossover with, um, like there's Western noirs, like Unforgiven, there's sci-fi noir.

[00:07:42] There's a lot of sci-fi noir.

[00:07:44] There, there's also some really great modern takes on the classic detective story, like DOA or the entire Veronica Mars series is very, very film noir.

[00:07:56] And, uh, you see so many of the noir tropes in Angel.

[00:08:01] First of all, he becomes a detective.

[00:08:03] Yeah.

[00:08:03] He's always lurking in the shadows.

[00:08:06] Most of the shooting takes place at night in the dark.

[00:08:09] There's lots of darkness.

[00:08:10] It's, it's, it's about redemption.

[00:08:12] It's about morals.

[00:08:13] It's about sin.

[00:08:15] It's about evil.

[00:08:17] It's about, you know, the, the bad things that humans can do as well as monsters.

[00:08:22] Um, there's lots of femme fatales or femmes fatales in, in the show.

[00:08:28] We're going to meet many, many of them.

[00:08:30] And, um, I am a particular fan of film noir.

[00:08:35] So as we see tropes going through, as we're covering Angel, I'm going to keep pointing it out being like, there's a film noir.

[00:08:42] There's a film noir.

[00:08:44] Um, that'll be helpful.

[00:08:45] The whole genre sort of developed because a bunch of trained filmmakers fled Europe at the beginning of, um, Hitler's regime.

[00:09:00] They were like, I'm gonna, I'm either I'm a Jew.

[00:09:03] I got to get out of here.

[00:09:05] Or I'm, you know, politically left.

[00:09:08] I got to get out of here.

[00:09:09] Whatever the reasons were, they, they fled.

[00:09:11] And they came to Hollywood with all their skills and all of their, um, German expressionism influence.

[00:09:19] And then when they got to Hollywood, a lot of them had really low budgets to work with when they were making films.

[00:09:25] So they, they got rights to the cheapest books they could find rights to, to make screenplays out of.

[00:09:31] They shot at night when they could get permission to shoot places that were empty.

[00:09:35] And they didn't have a lot of budget for lighting.

[00:09:37] So they developed this very dramatic, dark, like, less lit style.

[00:09:45] And it came to be hallmarks of this genre, which was not named until like two decades later.

[00:09:51] Like it was just what movies were out then.

[00:09:53] And then later, you know, film theory, people were like, we're going to call it film noir.

[00:09:57] And it's a very popular genre.

[00:10:00] As I said, it's really cool.

[00:10:01] I, I love it.

[00:10:03] I love the aesthetics of it.

[00:10:05] And Angel is so film noir in so many ways that the way the city is a character, the way there's, he does a lot of voiceover where he says really melodramatic stuff.

[00:10:16] It sounds like it.

[00:10:17] Yeah.

[00:10:17] Where he's like, you know, the, the sort of famous film noir line is like, of all the gin joints in all the towns she had to come into mind.

[00:10:26] She had legs for days, like those kinds of voiceovers.

[00:10:30] And Angel does those kinds of melodramatic voiceovers all the time.

[00:10:34] And it's a very conscious choice.

[00:10:37] Where he talks to himself.

[00:10:39] Yeah.

[00:10:40] Yeah.

[00:10:40] He's like the original emo kid.

[00:10:43] Yeah.

[00:10:44] The original emo kids in 1940s were like, let's do this.

[00:10:49] And then Angel, his adorkable self is like, I want to be cool, but I can't develop a personality.

[00:10:55] So I'm just going to take on the noir aspects.

[00:10:57] Which all he's missing is like a fedora and cigarettes.

[00:11:03] Oh, geez.

[00:11:03] I'm glad they never put a fedora on that man.

[00:11:06] Yeah.

[00:11:06] That would have been too much.

[00:11:08] But I think that's something that JW does very well is kind of rely on tropes, but then also turn them on their heads.

[00:11:18] Yeah.

[00:11:18] And it's a good way at, you know, throwing out twists.

[00:11:21] And I have to say, every time I think of film noir, I think of this one particular Boy Meets World episode that is a parody of it.

[00:11:31] Nice.

[00:11:31] That is pretty fantastic.

[00:11:33] It uses everything.

[00:11:34] Like it was a detective type thing and kind of playing on different famous films.

[00:11:41] And it's a little less serious than Angel.

[00:11:44] Yeah.

[00:11:45] But it's too enjoyable.

[00:11:46] It's a great genre to parody because it has so many well-defined tropes.

[00:11:51] Like all you have to do to indicate that you're parodying a noir is start off with a shot where the light comes through Venetian blinds and makes like stripes across the main character's face.

[00:12:04] And have somebody in like a trench coat and a fedora in the shadows.

[00:12:09] And then everybody.

[00:12:10] I think that's literally how that Boy Meets World episode is.

[00:12:12] Yeah.

[00:12:13] Everybody immediately is like, oh, we're doing noir.

[00:12:17] Got it.

[00:12:17] Even if you don't know the word, you know, the genre, you've seen it.

[00:12:22] And some of those movies really, really hold up.

[00:12:25] My favorite, one of my favorite films noir is Mildred Pierce.

[00:12:29] I wrote my senior thesis about Joan Crawford.

[00:12:34] And so I watched a lot of Joan Crawford movies.

[00:12:36] That one is my favorite.

[00:12:37] And that was remade a few years ago with Kate Winslet as a HBO like prestige series.

[00:12:44] But it's an amazing movie.

[00:12:46] The original does really hold up.

[00:12:48] I actually have the movie poster somewhere around here.

[00:12:50] Cool.

[00:12:51] I am a huge Joan Crawford fan, but that's a story for another day.

[00:12:57] Another one of the most famous ones is Gilda starring Rita Hayworth, famously a redhead.

[00:13:02] So I always loved her because I was a redhead.

[00:13:05] Yay.

[00:13:05] And I used to love Blade Runner and 20, 24 Penny can't love Blade Runner anymore because there's so many problematic aspects to it.

[00:13:15] But the aesthetics of Blade Runner hold up.

[00:13:18] It's a beautiful film with the, with Los Angeles as a character and the, the lighting and the way they use rain, which in Los Angeles is rare, but they make it work in Blade Runner.

[00:13:32] And, you know, the hard boiled detective stuff.

[00:13:36] It's a Blade Runner is a lot of fun because of that.

[00:13:38] Yeah.

[00:13:39] It's just, there's parts of it that are.

[00:13:42] Yeah, definitely doesn't still slay.

[00:13:44] And there's parts of this episode that for me, some of it, unfortunately, like adds, you know, still relevant.

[00:13:53] A lot of it's very much.

[00:13:55] I've crammed this a few times.

[00:13:56] Yeah.

[00:13:57] Yeah.

[00:13:58] Yeah.

[00:13:58] Just, you know, I think the overall themes are interesting and still hold up, but yeah, it's, there's a lot of it that seems like it was a character of its time, which speaking of which I was thinking as I was watching this episode and thinking about my feedback, what it, what are the best and worst pickup lines you ladies have experienced in dating?

[00:14:18] Oh God.

[00:14:19] Oh, before we get into it, I made, I made an audio file of that, of the bartender, all of his pickup lines in a row.

[00:14:27] So I love it.

[00:14:42] Yeah.

[00:14:49] your skin tones would you like a drink or something because i'm like the bartender here

[00:14:59] just want to talk to somebody open up want to make a connection

[00:15:15] desperate that particular scene they intercut him picking up like hitting on women to with kate and

[00:15:23] angel like in the alley and and stuff but i was like oh i have to edit it all together because

[00:15:29] it's just that's so great i mean honestly i feel like the very last line is more of what i get

[00:15:36] just someone just his face is melting off and he's like i just want to hold you it's like

[00:15:41] yeah like that you just run up to a random woman and just like face melting off i just want to hold

[00:15:48] you it's like you know demon you've been in that male body a little too long yeah i um to answer

[00:15:56] your question the absolute worst pickup line i ever got was this one i was at a wedding i was a

[00:16:02] bridesmaid and um i had walked away the reception was outdoors in this like really pretty backyard of

[00:16:09] this big house and i had sort of walked away from the crowd for a minute i just needed you know

[00:16:14] sometimes you need a minute alone and i sat on this big rock that was in the yard and i was just

[00:16:20] like taking a second to myself and this guy walks over and he said look at you sitting there all alone

[00:16:26] you look like a wood nymph and i was like what so creative though like that's not normal like like

[00:16:36] i i want to know the the thought pattern that happened and how the filter didn't come in

[00:16:42] like that's your opening statement sir i was in the woods there were trees nearby but i wasn't in

[00:16:49] the woods i was sitting on a rock so i i feel like it's more like a rock nymph but i don't think that's

[00:16:54] a thing so he said wood nymph it was weird and then we had some awkward small talk and um i was in

[00:17:01] law school at the time he asked me what classes i was taking and one of the classes i was taking was

[00:17:06] accounting for lawyers and then he proceeded to mansplain accounting to me and it no no no no no

[00:17:18] as if i was like six years old too he was like see money comes in and some money goes out and i was

[00:17:26] like oh my god like i can't believe i'm sitting here listening to this you ridiculous human being

[00:17:35] um so that's mine that's probably my worst pickup line ever how about you cara there are two that

[00:17:42] immediately came to mind first when i was in law school a bunch of my friends and i were at this bar

[00:17:51] and a guy came up to me randomly while my friend was in the bathroom and asked me if i was an acdc fan

[00:17:59] random okay and i was just like that's random as hell and i just kind of looked i was like i mean

[00:18:03] kind of i know a couple songs he was like because i would love for you to knock me out with those

[00:18:08] american thighs oh god and i was like please get away from me and the bartender we had got we went

[00:18:15] there a ton the bartender overheard it and he looked at him he goes get out

[00:18:22] yeah thanks mike hey yeah you're like thank you it was i like how we icked out a bartender

[00:18:30] yeah like too far bartender yeah the the male bartender was like ew no i gotta police my own

[00:18:38] the bartender in this episode did that as well there were those guys that were hassling cordelia and

[00:18:43] he was like every week with you guys just like yeah and i was like thank you for being an ally it's too

[00:18:48] bad he later gets blamed for being the serial killer because he was actually a good guy

[00:18:54] poor guy for a bartender like he was good but the only the other one that comes to mind is

[00:19:00] probably about an hour after i got to rome for the first part of my study abroad my roommate and i

[00:19:08] were walking around the trevi fountain and this guy was walking behind me and at first he had tapped

[00:19:15] me on the shoulder and he was like miss miss and i was like nope keep walking and we kept walking he

[00:19:20] was like miss miss and finally i turned around because he went you dropped something and i was

[00:19:27] like this is gonna be one of those scams and i turn around and he drops down to his knees all

[00:19:33] dramatically and grabbed his chest and he was like it was my heart oh my god and like that's a great

[00:19:39] rome story that's yeah that's kind of funny like it's never gonna go but it's kind of funny

[00:19:46] we just kind of like giggled and yeah rihanna way but i was like well i guess this is italy yep

[00:19:52] so here we are the that is that is very cute i have special yeah like that's uh that's that's

[00:20:03] nice try he's always it wasn't creepy at least yeah right like he got down on the ground that's

[00:20:08] commitment yeah he dropped so dramatically i was like are you okay and then when he clutched his

[00:20:14] heart i was like oh all right it's a bit this is happening yep oh oh no uh the i have i have

[00:20:23] two terrible pickup lines and uh two really good ones um that actually worked and i i went out with

[00:20:31] them for a little bit but um the the two worst ones were one of the guys came up to me at a club

[00:20:38] and said the nice legs when do they open yeah that that's like no no that's not gonna work um

[00:20:47] and then another guy uh that i was working with was at blockbuster just get my urn now

[00:20:57] he said he he had he's like he's like you want to go out to grab a bite to eat i was like no

[00:21:01] thank you i don't really date the people that i work with and he's like oh you know it's just

[00:21:05] like you're you're so cute you look like you're 12 and i was like that's why you asked me out like

[00:21:11] and i i was not i was 19 but i was like if i look like i'm 12 why are you asking me out like that is

[00:21:19] just like it's not the compliment you think it is no it's like well i may look like i'm 12 but now

[00:21:26] you sound like a pedophile so like you know um and then the the two good ones were when also when

[00:21:34] i was working at blockbuster but this time in new york city we had um a really long line and i was

[00:21:39] sick as a dog but i was 18 so i was um i was still working and i was like hacking coughing and um this

[00:21:48] really cute guy like he didn't say anything he was really like you know nice you know we were busy and

[00:21:53] checked out he went to the cvs next door and then came back in and gave me some cough drops and they

[00:21:58] were like fully wrapped and like and so like he just dropped them off and like left and i was like

[00:22:03] wait wait like and i was like yeah it did i i like chase after him

[00:22:10] it's like the ziploc bags it's a small but thoughtful gesture that doesn't put any pressure on you and it's not

[00:22:18] like a big not about your body it's not like anything at all like very emotional intelligence

[00:22:25] yeah and like i caught him outside and i was like thank you so much he's like you're welcome you just

[00:22:29] looked like you weren't having a great night so i just thought i'd give that to you and i was like

[00:22:34] let's talk to him for a little bit and we end up going out for a few months it just didn't work out

[00:22:37] but like and then the so i was like yes i like that um and then the the other time was when i was

[00:22:44] hanging out with a bunch of friends while we were going out to when we were like in a bar and we're

[00:22:48] celebrating one of my friends birthdays and uh he ended up ordering a round of shots for our friends

[00:22:54] and he didn't like he he i dated him for a year and he like to the end proclaimed that it wasn't

[00:23:00] actually like a huge hit on like yes there was the optimism of i'll buy you and all your friends

[00:23:04] a drink but he did not follow us around or do anything like he just he's like can you get can you

[00:23:09] give them a shot of whatever they want it's it's it's on me no expectations yeah it's the friend's

[00:23:14] birthday and stuff and then he just like waved over and like and then like came over like a little bit

[00:23:19] later just say like hey i just wanted to say happy birthday and and so we're like hey you know like

[00:23:23] come and hang out with us like you've you've been cool you haven't been a creep buying us drink and

[00:23:27] then hanging out and buying each of you yeah yes which is the thing heard it was our birthday because

[00:23:34] you know none of my friends at the time had indoor voices either and so like and just like bought us

[00:23:39] all a drink and then left us alone and then like just came over and was like i just wanted to say

[00:23:44] like happy birthday and they're like yeah come and hang out with us like you've been weird that's very

[00:23:48] appropriate and thoughtful like yes including the whole group in the free drinks there's nothing

[00:23:55] worse when you're out with a friend and some dude is aggressively hitting on your friend and they

[00:24:00] and they keep like getting like in between you and trying to like edge you out and then and then

[00:24:05] you get called a um a cock block if you're like please leave us alone they're like oh you know i'm

[00:24:12] trying to talk to your friend here and i'm like you're ruining our night is what you're doing

[00:24:15] yeah yeah it's it's no i don't like it when i'm the target or my friend is the target when someone's

[00:24:22] being that aggressive it happened to me this is this was actually somewhat recent i was um out with a

[00:24:28] a group of friends we went to see an absolutely ridiculous improv musical and then uh we went out

[00:24:35] for drinks afterward and there was this one guy at the bar who just kept coming back to me and being

[00:24:41] like hey i just want to hang out with you i just want to talk to you you seem fun like and he he was

[00:24:46] easily 15 years younger than me and and the friends i was with were like what's happening this guy is

[00:24:53] so into you because he kept doing the thing where he would like try to cut me off from the rest of the

[00:24:58] group and like stand between me and my friends and talk to me and i was like i was like if i wasn't in

[00:25:04] the middle of like a social thing like you're cute i might talk to you but this aggression is

[00:25:09] yeah yeah that's a turn off yeah no it was gross yeah and um it's a it's a joke that comes up from time

[00:25:17] to time with that group of friends they'll be like remember that guy at saloon that wouldn't leave penny

[00:25:21] alone uh and i'm like it's so sad that it stands out as such a huge event that a guy wanted to date

[00:25:29] me in front of other people but yeah i like how you were telling us penny and neither karen or i were

[00:25:36] surprised we're like yeah he came over and he's like 15 years younger and just he kept coming back

[00:25:41] over wanting to talk i'm like that that actually yeah that tracks sense that's i'm yeah yeah that

[00:25:46] that makes sense and then he started to be icky and then i was like oh no he was

[00:25:49] pretty drunk um and a lot of times the problem is when when guys like at the beginning of the night

[00:25:59] they have their wits about them and they can be a little bit more subtle and thoughtful but if they

[00:26:04] drink too much they they get this like confidence that they're really funny and charming and that's

[00:26:09] when they usually say and do the worst stuff and it's like women don't do that a lot because we're

[00:26:15] constantly aware that we're the targets for murder by by men mostly so like we we kind of get a little

[00:26:23] goofy and stuff like that but um since we are also the hunted when we go out whether or not you know

[00:26:30] you're you're interested in that out there the statistics show so like you know it's always

[00:26:35] being in in groups and yeah it's it's so odd things that makes me i want to talk about the fact that this

[00:26:42] demon was apparently bisexual but not while in the body like it was always a heterosexual hookup

[00:26:53] but because it changed genders back and forth i don't know what you call that and it's predatory but

[00:27:00] also the sex seemed to be a big part of it for that demon because yes at one point angel theorizes that

[00:27:07] the sex is a necessary part of the transfer and he says like you know you know exchange of bodily

[00:27:13] fluids or something and i was like i don't want to think about that that's gross and cordelia was

[00:27:18] like gross you know but then later when the demon is trying desperately to change bodies it just straight

[00:27:24] goes for the kill when it tries to attack kate so i'm like maybe sex wasn't necessary but it was

[00:27:30] something that this demon likes doing which is gross or the demon was interrupted before he could do

[00:27:36] something way but he he he like ripped open her shirt and the it started to come out of the the worm

[00:27:43] thing had started to come out of him you mean the zip pop that that happened that was terrible yeah i was

[00:27:49] like i was like yeah it's like yeah it's really gross um i i wonder i wonder if like sex was

[00:27:57] yeah i definitely agree with you i had that too of like well we don't know what gender the the

[00:28:03] demon was or if it's genderless um so it was sort of like this pansexual kind of thing i i did clock

[00:28:11] that of course it was the late 90s and honestly still true in most uh media that it's they prefer

[00:28:17] heterosexual relationships on screen yeah teen targeted channel yeah yeah it's they they just they

[00:28:25] really worry about upsetting you know normal people i don't know who they're catering to because like but

[00:28:31] will and grace was on during this time but that was on it was later at night network tv yeah yeah and

[00:28:38] now when you look back on it it's just like oh this is also like i feel like it's still going on in like

[00:28:44] 2024 of like they like of having a main character be bisexual or queer and be in a relationship with

[00:28:53] like the same same-sex individual i think the most recent one i've seen is like the show 9-1-1 and like

[00:29:00] i just thought it was a cool development but like there's been mostly support but some backlash it's

[00:29:06] on fox of all channels i'm pretty sure if you want great bisexual representation the hundred

[00:29:13] yeah yeah yeah yeah i mean not even like all of the love interests nobody killed on that show but it's

[00:29:21] yeah for everybody it's not just for the queer characters every lots of people die on that show so

[00:29:27] uh but they make no big deal nobody even mentions that clark is bisexual she just is yeah and it's just

[00:29:36] how things are and it's not there are more shows lately on like the cw and netflix that are targeted

[00:29:45] towards teens that have more you know gay bisexual like trans representation i think it's sex education

[00:29:52] oh that's such a good show on netflix it's such a good show heart stopper had a few characters even

[00:29:59] though there's not all of them are great representations of these people but i i can't

[00:30:06] think of any shows that i watched when i was a teen that really had the only openly gay character

[00:30:17] yes it was always women um yeah yeah the only one that comes to mind from around that period was um

[00:30:25] my so-called life had a yeah a gay character uh who was also part of the original cast of rent

[00:30:31] um yeah i saw him in rent on broadway and i was like that's ricky from oh yeah so i know like star trek

[00:30:41] it has discovery has been doing it but it's it's just more i think the one the the hundred is like

[00:30:47] definitely one of them where it's like you start off with characters and wheel of time did it

[00:30:53] like start off with characters that are just like this and then you realize that they're bisexual or gay

[00:30:59] it almost never happens for male characters i think it just speaks for we just haven't come that far

[00:31:06] from from where we were 25 years ago i wish we were a lot more now there are like lgbt-centered shows and

[00:31:14] those are very important usually very well done but like something mainstream like i i know we were

[00:31:19] talking about squid games earlier yeah where it's like what would this be if it was just like

[00:31:23] a side or like you know hey daryl dixon like you know like why does he have to be in a relationship

[00:31:30] with a female character like i mean he's been a little queer coded so like it's just like an

[00:31:36] interesting thing that there's still this i always wanted daryl and aaron to get together

[00:31:41] me too i thought they had so much chemistry nice and like yeah like as you know just someone who

[00:31:47] is like equal rights for everyone please i i think it's a great development i also don't give it that

[00:31:52] much of a like it's not a shock i think it's great and i want more but i don't want like i don't know

[00:31:58] it's not this like i want it to be normal and mainstream and we still haven't come that far like

[00:32:02] i really want it was remade today i really want more gay characters who have stories that have nothing to

[00:32:08] do with them being gay exactly that don't have to come out as part of the story that just are gay or

[00:32:15] are like in agatha agatha was a great had great queer representation like that was perfect nobody has

[00:32:22] it was never a huge storyline with his parents like it was not a big deal at all it just was

[00:32:30] that show for queer representation is amazing i i went to a new year's eve party one of my neighbors

[00:32:37] had and again i was like at least 15 years older than everybody there but i was talking to this one

[00:32:44] trans woman about tv shows and i said oh have you seen agatha all along and she said no what is it and

[00:32:51] i said a bunch of lesbians and a twink go on a quest and she goes i'm sold you don't have to tell me

[00:32:58] another thing seriously and i was like that's that should be the like excellent marketing line

[00:33:05] there you go i think probably would have made more like you know people like yes let's go

[00:33:10] um yeah no i i think that's great and that is the perfect tagline for for for that show

[00:33:15] circling back to i think the reason that the demon went for sex

[00:33:19] is because it's a natural way to get people undressed yeah so like you know yeah alone and

[00:33:27] undressed and also i mean the whole episode the whole theme of the episode is loneliness right and

[00:33:32] we start with angel in the dark and and doyle being like come on let's go out because i want to

[00:33:38] hit on cordelia but i want to do it in a subtle friend way uh we've all been there right where we're

[00:33:43] like let's have a group out in but you're really just interested in one person yeah which okay so i i

[00:33:48] had comments i'm sorry i like i i had like i had like i'm like broody boy just emoing in the dark

[00:33:55] and i'm just like angel come on and then like doyle like like of course he wants to trick cordy into

[00:34:03] going out in in the group you know talk me up to her and angel goes i barely know you which made me

[00:34:10] that was awesome yeah thank you thank you thank you for being an ally angel and funny and and it's

[00:34:15] like also angel go and also doyle goes don't tell the truth about me doyle you are so a jw stand in

[00:34:23] you guys i remember penny you said that in the first episode that you guys did i'm like yep he gets more

[00:34:28] endearing but like like i was like the truth you guys fight demons about his inner demons basically

[00:34:36] yeah that's um good for angel being like i'm not gonna do that like yeah yes you know i love angel

[00:34:44] he's so good he is good for 40 and their relationship is as it develops in this series i really like

[00:34:53] because they start from this place of mutual respect and and friendship and it it becomes so deep and

[00:35:01] sincere and i love being able to see cordy as a whole person and not just a high school mean girl

[00:35:08] we get to see so many sides of her over the course of the show which is really great and she brings out

[00:35:13] a side of angel that is wonderful like she pushes him in all these different ways she doesn't take his

[00:35:22] garbage ever and she calls him on his nonsense it's it's so refreshing and he just is like yeah

[00:35:31] you're right i have nonsense like he's just he takes it from her in a way that he never would have

[00:35:36] from anyone else do you think about like when she walks in with the business cards and he's like yeah

[00:35:42] it's a it's a butterfly like just and they both start listing oh my god things off it's nice that he

[00:35:50] trying so hard to be nice i know he tries to be polite supportive i mean but also i was like

[00:35:57] it very clearly looks like an angel yeah right i'm like what is with the charades convo around

[00:36:02] the angel outline on the card like like you all i know but yeah i i noticed like with their dynamic

[00:36:09] and i i third it because i know penny you said you liked it and you're like yes i like it so i i third i

[00:36:14] i i third i agree um their their relationship is so great and it reminds me of the dearth of

[00:36:22] female and male friendships where there isn't a romantic relationship i actually didn't want them

[00:36:28] to ever develop a romantic relationship i like them as friends i thought they helped build each other

[00:36:34] and their relationship like when i think about like a perfect scene for them is i can't remember

[00:36:40] what episode it's it's in oh is it spoilery for it okay no no no no there's no spoilers um where

[00:36:46] where cordy is like putting a plant in and she said the plant doesn't require a lot of sunlight we

[00:36:51] need to brighten up the office and angel just smiles at her and he says like i've never met anyone like

[00:36:57] you before and she goes duh yeah i was like oh i love you guys i have no idea what episode it's from

[00:37:04] that's why i know it's not spoilery i'm like i don't know well i have no idea what episode it's from

[00:37:08] that's just their dynamic and i love it yeah they're cute they're cute their friendship their

[00:37:14] developing friendship is really cute and very honest like she already knows a lot of bad stuff

[00:37:21] about angels she has no illusions about him right she saw the whole angelus thing so she's not coming

[00:37:29] into this like how she brings it up all the time are you sure you're not gonna turn evil in the future

[00:37:34] like that was a she's right like he should promise that um i'm not gonna come to the office to a like

[00:37:41] a homicidal monster and stuff i mean i feel like she dated xander yeah she could see the good in xander

[00:37:49] but yeah like but it's refreshing to see a platonic male and female friendship i'm so tired of the like

[00:37:58] storyline about how men and women can't just be friends like the whole when harry met sally thing i think

[00:38:03] men came up with that to tell you the truth or or women that were concerned that their partners would

[00:38:08] date their friends but it's just nice like both of them are physically attractive objectively attractive

[00:38:15] people and it is never a question no they are just truly platonic friends and it helps that he's

[00:38:24] you know a centuries-old vampire that didn't stop a buffy yeah i was like i do feel like in this episode

[00:38:32] the show is trying really hard to make us all want him to end up with kate oh yeah

[00:38:37] i'm angel

[00:38:40] i'm kate so do you come here a lot that's first time that's where you see yeah

[00:38:53] i prefer those cool bars that are hard to get into but i can't get into them anyway this is close to

[00:38:58] home so you just you just stop in i'm sort of looking for someone oh if i'm keeping you you

[00:39:06] know no no i'm just looking for someone to rescue are you maybe a native some rescuing well that's the

[00:39:15] strangest line i'm gonna hear tonight no no it's not flying on oh i didn't mean that was harsh hey

[00:39:22] no no i'm not very good at this talking well i'm the expert i'm sure you can see

[00:39:28] but the answer is no i don't need rescuing i gave up on the knight in shining armor concept a while ago

[00:39:36] anyway i expect to find him here at the international house of posers

[00:39:45] i love the line international house of posers i should have added that as a pop culture reference

[00:39:52] it's so funny i i love that she's like another hot blonde like cue angel's second theme song should

[00:40:00] be sawities my type yeah that's just not that he really does like i love that one girls um darla

[00:40:08] buffy kate but she's another one that turns that kind of trope on its head because i remember watching

[00:40:16] this the first time thinking like oh okay so she's probably going to be a potential victim

[00:40:22] or you know something like that and it's like oh no no she's a cop it's like yeah yep she is also

[00:40:29] investigating and i think she's doing a better job

[00:40:31] just a little just a little but it's also so dangerous it drives me crazy and i know it doesn't

[00:40:39] matter but no detective would just be there on their own in a bar i know there would be at least

[00:40:49] like a patrol car or something something like somebody nearby you are though that kate has

[00:40:56] this loner thing this loner vibe she's like too tough to need anybody else she's you know she's brusque

[00:41:03] when she takes off her undercover i can take care of myself and she's like like when she shows the

[00:41:07] bartender her badge like she's got a completely different persona and uh and you you realize in that

[00:41:15] moment that she was faking it with angel before but i think there's some truth in it i think she is very lonely

[00:41:23] uh and they play when she that's what i love when she's searching his apartment they play this song

[00:41:30] and i wrote it down it's called um touched by vast and the lyrics are i'll never find someone quite like

[00:41:38] you again and it just felt like the show was like ship them ship them and this was before ship was a

[00:41:48] word that we used for that phenomenon but i do know that there are a lot of fans who did ship them

[00:41:54] and then there are a lot of fans that hated kate like hated her yeah i hated there's some real vitriol

[00:42:01] yeah i i don't love i don't have strong feelings one way or another with her so like i'm i'm curious to

[00:42:09] see how adult me more adult me views her i didn't really i it's less the actress because i've seen her

[00:42:15] on law and order she did law and order i've seen her i think she's a phenomenal actress um i didn't

[00:42:20] like the way they wrote her character and i found her a little bit of a collection of tropes

[00:42:26] right she's like yeah she's like let's take the hard-boiled cop and make it a woman

[00:42:32] ha ha ha let's give her sexual tension with angel ha ha ha but there's something missing from the mix we

[00:42:39] do get a little bit more of her in later seasons but i yeah like i liked her from yeah i think she

[00:42:47] doesn't really i mean yeah like i know there's an episode coming up i think in season two maybe or

[00:42:51] yes season two where we find a little bit more about her i think she has the um the the trope of

[00:42:59] her story doesn't really exist outside of angel yeah like like whenever we're around her it's about angel so

[00:43:07] it it just like i don't know somehow they managed with the wolfram and hart storyline i think to make

[00:43:12] that its own beast so to speak um and i and and with gun uh too but like it's it's a little for her

[00:43:22] character she was only around to kind of be a pain in the butt with angel as people who support angel

[00:43:28] um you know and it was just sort of like almost not like a mary sue but like

[00:43:34] like yeah it's i so i'll be curious to see because there's i've done a rewatch of all of

[00:43:38] both buffy and i feel differently about one of the characters that shows up a little later on that i

[00:43:44] could not stand for most of most of my time being a fan that i end up having like as a 40 year old

[00:43:51] more compassion i was like what did i i mean i get it they're annoying sometimes but like

[00:43:56] you know just i'm just curious is it andrew no although i did find them more or kennedy

[00:44:02] nah it's little sis oh interesting i felt the same way that'll be fun yeah so as a 40 year old

[00:44:11] versus like a 14 15 year old with a little sister i i do feel differently so like i'm i'm curious to see

[00:44:19] if if kate having also seen that actress and other things whether um whether it'll be different i didn't

[00:44:26] care for her this episode i gotta say i i found her very annoying a lot of the writing for everyone

[00:44:33] except angel in this episode is a little weak i think the show is still finding its footing um

[00:44:40] there were some great like moments but overall it was a little shallow but then again it's a episode

[00:44:49] about singles bar so shallow seems appropriate there you go i like it um one of my favorite

[00:44:57] moments is um when the demon has sex with someone and then they have this like

[00:45:04] awkward moment in bed and i just felt like this conversation was so realistic

[00:45:11] it was you know what happened to some other writers and this is how they came up with like

[00:45:16] oh just kill me now oh that could be yeah i'm sorry i wanted this to go better maybe i was trying too hard

[00:45:31] i just really like you next time it'll be better roll over i'm gonna eat you

[00:45:48] i'm gonna penetrate you now oh god i mean but it was so very std i know i was too i was thinking

[00:45:57] when angel says the thing about exchange of bodily fluids i was like are none of them using condoms gross

[00:46:04] right and just like like oh sorry but it's so like but you just can't help but think about yeah

[00:46:11] st i guess sti is now where yeah you know you're going home with someone that you don't know and

[00:46:18] it's a dangerous situation in a lot of ways it can be and i was just like i guess that had to be at

[00:46:26] least somewhat intentional but i did want to go back to something you said penny about uh angel and kate and

[00:46:36] how they're both kind of pretending to be these people like they both have this persona that they've

[00:46:43] put on when they're interacting with the other one but at the same time i love that while they're

[00:46:50] pretending to be these people it has some truth to it for both of them they're both lonely people

[00:46:57] there's some really yeah they're already interesting character parallels between the two of them and i don't

[00:47:04] think that especially the first time that i watched this that was not something at all that i was

[00:47:09] thinking about and now i'm just like okay so they both have walls up they both are lonely they both

[00:47:17] are you know looking for a connection because i think that's one of the key things we talked about it a

[00:47:24] little bit in the last episode for the pilot with angel is that he relies so much on human connection to

[00:47:30] kind of maintain his humanity and kate and doyle and cordelia all represent a different type of

[00:47:40] connection for him and god i love watching him try to make small talk and it's so awkward the cut to

[00:47:47] the guy where he's like seriously i wasn't hitting on you i was like hey just imagine him going up to

[00:47:52] him are you looking to be okay we are we are two for two on episodes with them implying that angel is

[00:48:00] getting hit on by a man or doing the hitting on and i'm like the writers knew what they were doing

[00:48:05] he's very pretty i think a lot of people will find him very pretty so with show and buffy there's tons

[00:48:12] of queer subtext there's i love it it was a time when having a gay character especially like a main

[00:48:19] character was a really big deal and you know they eventually did have willow be gay on buffy but

[00:48:26] it would have been unthinkable to have angel be bi at the time i think that if this show was being

[00:48:37] produced now they would probably go that direction especially after interview with a vampire has made

[00:48:42] the concept of like bisexual vampires like super hot and hip i feel like it's more realistic too like if

[00:48:50] you live hundreds of years like eventually you're gonna just try everything yeah like i feel like you

[00:48:56] wouldn't care i i what some characters vampires in true blood were by but not all of i don't remember

[00:49:05] uh eric had too long since i watched that show right um a lot of gay characters i think the the more on

[00:49:14] spectrum is a little bit more my all-time favorite tv bisexual character though is oberyn martell and

[00:49:22] game of thrones played by pedro pascal oh gosh that was hot yeah where he's like i see this and it

[00:49:27] pleases me i see that and it pleases me i'm like oh you go boy i don't know how it works did he does

[00:49:34] he have a boyfriend did i imagine that well i don't know recently what the character of pedro pascal

[00:49:41] no like oh i don't know he's very careful to keep his personal life out like yeah there's a reason

[00:49:48] why he takes his sister to all of his red carpet events like yeah yeah i think it was a male that

[00:49:54] he took to some red carpet event and people i don't know i it was like i kept seeing little headlines

[00:50:00] popping up and never bothered i think during the gladiator 2 press tour he was touring a lot around a

[00:50:07] lot with joseph quinn and um paul mescal and i i did see video of them occasionally like holding hands

[00:50:16] and stuff like that and uh i think that it was mostly just supportive because he famously has

[00:50:24] anxiety about doing like press events and stuff and very much there's been videos in the past of

[00:50:29] co-stars in those kind of panels and interview situations like reaching out and holding his hand

[00:50:35] uh for support so when his male co-stars did it i was like oh that's just they're just being you know

[00:50:42] whatever they have healthy but he might be getting one of them and that would be

[00:50:47] it'd be cool so sexy i would kind of like that oh i i would too i think it'd be super hot

[00:50:53] any of the stars of gladiator 2 any of them they're all so beautiful they're all attractive like i mean

[00:51:01] so that this sort of reminds me of just like so i was i was watching uh oh i was watching batman begins

[00:51:09] and um one of my friends was was talking about how um her sister was was watching it and was saying

[00:51:16] like and her like we're all adults and and we're watching it and she she was just saying like oh i

[00:51:22] eff the heck out of that person like and all thinking like it's christian bale it's you know

[00:51:30] killian murphy and then finally like she asked her sister like which one are you talking about she

[00:51:36] goes she's like him and it's um uh what what's uh the the older gentleman uh commissioner no no oh

[00:51:49] now i know i'm ruining alfred no no that that would actually make oh raja pool um no

[00:51:56] also makes sorry i should have i should have looked this up before i i said this just fox oh

[00:52:03] um no more morgan freeman lucius fox yeah

[00:52:11] he's a sexy man don't don't get me wrong gravitas in his voice yeah

[00:52:16] and the character he is in that movie he's like yeah this like super genius who's all chill and mellow

[00:52:24] behind the scenes yeah bring it on i mean it's just like denzel washington just can get it forever

[00:52:31] at least for me like i don't know like during very handsome man he's so charismatic oh my goodness

[00:52:37] denzel and remember the titans like awoke something in me

[00:52:42] i was like oh yeah that's interesting yeah

[00:52:51] this is this is a great movie i mean it's speaking of good movie but it was enjoyable so great speaking

[00:52:57] of of batman when when you guys had said in the in the first episode um about about having a lot

[00:53:04] of batman parallels which as you were describing it penny like this reminds me like batman at least

[00:53:10] you know older batman had some noir elements in it okay i got into a huge argument with my film

[00:53:16] professor about whether or not batman was film noir and she was like it's a cartoon for children

[00:53:23] that's stupid and i was like whoa you are wrong he's a detective in a grimy gritty city

[00:53:32] just because he wears a cape doesn't ruin the noir aspects like the the aesthetics of that

[00:53:37] like yeah like so many fempatiles like poison ivy and cat woman and like yeah i huge huge argument

[00:53:46] with her well you were right we we it's a it's a universal agreement which she gets outvoted but

[00:53:53] um we side with you penny thank you um but yes of course and so in this episode because i had just

[00:54:00] listened to that that podcast and i was primed watching this and i'm like y'all called it there

[00:54:05] were so many batman like hints at the point where doyle even talks about the card in the beginning

[00:54:10] and he goes it's not like you have a bat signal yeah i was like that's what they said on the podcast

[00:54:15] i had never heard that before you guys brought up on the podcast what does he pull out when when he

[00:54:20] and kate are chasing the demon is it like a grappling hook yeah he tries she's like who are you

[00:54:26] and i'm like yeah that's his utility belt like it's a angel is batman that so that's that's part of we

[00:54:33] can talk about now that's part of a little trivia scene but that's where he is shooting the grappling

[00:54:39] hook gun over the wood beam that is a direct reference to a scene that's just like it in the 1989

[00:54:46] batman movie which is fantastic obviously it doesn't like brings uh kim basing her up and he asked her

[00:54:54] how much she weighs that really offensive scene oh god 1989 batman i think i'm not gonna rewatch that

[00:55:01] wait was it michael yeah i think i think you're right i think that is yeah he's like how much do you

[00:55:07] weigh and she's like uh with like jack mcgelson and then they start to ascend on the grappling hook

[00:55:14] wire or whatever and then at a certain point he's like all right you go the rest of the way up alone

[00:55:18] and he's like 110 like that's not true and i'm like it's lame batman that you have a wire that can't

[00:55:26] handle two adult humans like that's on you well i know and also mad judgment from a dude who lives

[00:55:32] in a cave and spends all his time like socializing wanting to be a bat wasn't thin enough or something

[00:55:39] in that movie like she's so beautiful and perfect she looks like i could throw her over my shoulder

[00:55:44] like i think it's 110 per woman her height is absurd too but it's it's 100 it's what women are told to

[00:55:52] aspire to i weighed 110 pounds god i'd be so sick yeah because i was also my four by fifth grade you

[00:56:00] are not tall enough to talk about women that way uh it's not his fault it's the writing but um

[00:56:07] but yes that grappling hook scene is apparently emblazoned in my mind for the fat phobia that it

[00:56:14] represents seriously well speaking of like stuff that just sort of registered with me personally

[00:56:20] in in the opening of it so i haven't watched the series really since i developed migraines about five

[00:56:27] years ago and doyle's visions reminded me of my migraines i mean like blurry visions auras like

[00:56:35] i mean granted i don't see monsters but like it just sort of like that oh like it comes out of

[00:56:41] nowhere and it's just like that like blinding pain me too and i was just yeah okay cool because i was

[00:56:47] like i'm getting really uncomfortable watching this and i can't figure it out i'm like after his vision

[00:56:52] the team immediately goes to that nightclub and i'm like after i have a migraine you could not drag me

[00:56:59] i know with like armed guards into a he's like a noisy place with like flashing lights no way

[00:57:06] yeah no there's the yeah i remember watching this episode for the first time and being like well what

[00:57:12] kind of good is that vision like he didn't see anybody he couldn't focus in on anything but then

[00:57:19] like looking at it through a lens you know while podcasting i was like oh so they're all in danger

[00:57:26] the whole club needs to be saved that's like the hunting ground although also cordelia this demon

[00:57:32] calls him out on it right she's like your visions are kind of lame yeah

[00:57:39] i mean it reminded me of that episode in buffy where she can read minds and cordy is just saying

[00:57:46] exactly yeah i adore it and i relate a little too much to it yeah

[00:57:52] i think i think my inside voice is a little bit kinder than than cordy's on overall but i i

[00:57:58] related a little bit too much to true you know how to couch it that's what everyone says and i'm like

[00:58:04] good delivery and maybe because like and i also like had a four day long migraine but when and it

[00:58:11] finally broke when i was watching this this episode and like you know and i'm just like i'm

[00:58:16] still recovering from it like i still have nauseousness and everything i'm just like oh this would suck

[00:58:21] and i think demon powers are the only way doyle is able to get up and move after that it's

[00:58:26] supernatural to be able to move around after a migraine and go to a yeah like seriously i

[00:58:32] will say i wouldn't mind david boreano's grabbing on to me yeah during a migraine i think that would

[00:58:37] be a nice pancia support yeah hold me please until it gets better but i will say when they

[00:58:47] walked into that club i was like this looks like my own personal nightmare i have never enjoyed clubs

[00:58:52] the only time i've ever gone was during study abroad and it was terrible like people like people

[00:58:59] men coming up behind you just like touching and grabbing in the dark i was like nope yeah

[00:59:05] i mean it was just awful and then kevin was a different kind of nefarious you know like the

[00:59:11] lines that he was spewing and all of this so he was just like oh i shouldn't have said that like oh i

[00:59:18] you know i was like it was that warning though i have yeah stuff to say about that in the spoiler

[00:59:24] section oh so i have like so the so yeah well one of the things about it always cracks me up about

[00:59:31] club scenes and i think maybe they finally got it right on true blood a little bit they are so

[00:59:37] brightly lit in tv shows oh yeah and that is not how bars and clubs look on purpose and at this point

[00:59:45] it just looks like a busy room with people it looks like a holiday party like it it doesn't it does not

[00:59:51] look like a club scene but yeah when when kevin was hitting on her so unrealistic i mean the fact

[00:59:59] that he was wearing a nice outfit a blazer i mean nowadays you're lucky if they show up yeah and

[01:00:06] it's like nowadays you're lucky if that was accurate time actually guys dressed up more than yeah yeah

[01:00:13] nowadays you're lucky if they show up with basic hygiene like i can't smell the chinese food you had

[01:00:20] yesterday okay cool yeah then like you actually put in an effort like i'm like this is not at all

[01:00:28] how any of this works uh anymore he's just way too polite way too like you know cordial well well

[01:00:35] dressed i i did like it was also i think in the next scene it wasn't that further in

[01:00:42] they did it was just like a like a clip away like they did it and then they went away when the random

[01:00:46] guy comes up to the woman who's sitting there and points at the chair and then grabs the stool

[01:00:50] and walks away yeah i'm like i feel seen yeah i've had that happen and i've done it not really thinking

[01:00:57] that that's a mixed message

[01:01:02] gosh i also love freaking cordelia walking around handing out their business cards in the middle of

[01:01:09] oh my god just saying some crazy insulting crap oh my god that was amazing and also at the point

[01:01:17] where she says she says like call angel investigations if you're being harassed i'm like where do i sign

[01:01:23] up please i i need i mean apparently i need angel investigations to follow me in a lot of places

[01:01:29] yeah and i was just like oh please i i i feel like she would be someone i would have ended up talking

[01:01:34] to at the bar yeah i would have wanted to hang out with her like this is cordelia is incredibly

[01:01:39] approachable angel is not no like even doyle seems approachable are we are angel though is so

[01:01:48] unintentionally is not attractive like right i guess like but compared to angel he's just a different

[01:01:56] kind of everybody looks a little bit plain next to david borianus but when he's not standing

[01:02:02] right next to doyle doyle doyle is a really good looking guy and they're acting everybody on the

[01:02:07] show is actually like he's like this blatant evident loser right they're like nobody would

[01:02:13] want to be with this guy and i'm like i would have gone out with him i would yeah i would have especially

[01:02:19] and the accent seriously on on top of it all he's funny and charming when he's not acting like xander

[01:02:25] and jw yeah i did feel bad when cordelia when he was trying to like kind of help her out when that

[01:02:33] guy was being creepy and super inappropriate insinuating i mean not really insinuating he

[01:02:38] was straight out calling her a hooker basically and doyle's like she's with me and she's like no

[01:02:42] i'm not i was like cordy i know be nice he's trying to help that was a that yes that was a

[01:02:48] possessive patriarchal way to try to help yes but he was trying to help that is what men respond to

[01:02:55] yeah often like how many times have you been in a situation where a guy is hitting on you

[01:02:59] and you saying sorry like i'm not interested i'm not looking for that tonight but if you say i'm

[01:03:03] married or i have a boyfriend then a lot of them will oh yeah i mean we can go into the stories of

[01:03:11] it all of being like she's my girlfriend like just so people would because that's if someone else is in

[01:03:16] that place apparently that's the only reason for men to accept i've known so many single women that

[01:03:21] have a fake engagement ring that they wear when they travel yep i've done it it's not as much of

[01:03:29] a problem in your 50s but uh in my youth as you get older yeah oh i that's that's one thing you get less

[01:03:36] unwanted attention from men and i don't hate it it's already happening a little i want it to happen more

[01:03:43] uh for me but like but i mean it's your own fault for being so much bigger

[01:03:51] it's just like it feels what it's like not wanted it feels so predatory yeah but it's just like it's

[01:03:58] it's just it's it's never a nice like i i think i think unfortunately a lot of men because they don't

[01:04:06] have the same experiences don't really realize like it's cool if you're just polite like if you're

[01:04:13] just polite you accept no for an answer like that's cool it's the other things because they're like

[01:04:19] why don't women just say no i'm like do you want me to give you all the articles of women who were

[01:04:22] murdered this year alone for just rejecting a come on for saying no and they were murdered by men so

[01:04:28] like a lot of men don't listen we've all tried it well no every woman has tried the polite like no

[01:04:34] thank you and yeah or if you say i have a boyfriend he doesn't have to know god like that type of

[01:04:41] or like i'm i'm a lesbian that's okay bring your girlfriend like they yeah yeah they don't hear

[01:04:47] anything except for another man owns me and it's disgusting and i hate relying on it but yeah when

[01:04:57] you're in the situation you got you got to do it you got to be my boyfriend's waiting for me or i'm

[01:05:04] meeting my boyfriend later or like when you're in a really scary situation like where your cab driver

[01:05:09] is hitting on you and wants to take you home with him oh i've made fake phone calls and they know

[01:05:15] where you live and so it's like it's all this stuff that i think at least cisgendered heterosexual men

[01:05:22] especially white men sorry guys it's just like that it's just so outside of the peripheral of

[01:05:28] experiences and yes there are been times of course where they have felt threatened by whom by other men

[01:05:35] but like it's it's just a different with the amount of it where it's just like i when i go to visit

[01:05:42] my family in upstate new york i put on a fake wedding ring because it makes me look like less of a

[01:05:46] target like there's all this research in there like i think i just posted of like the newest thing for

[01:05:51] women now is put in your dad's name or your husband's name and put their picture into your

[01:05:56] uber and lyft picture so they're less likely to to target you if you have um a female name like

[01:06:02] you know my door dash and my instacart both have male i just use my initials it just says p l

[01:06:11] yeah yeah well and you know it makes me think of one of my law professors i'll never forget it gave

[01:06:18] an example at the beginning of our like our very first torts class where he had everybody close their

[01:06:25] eyes and he started describing okay you're walking on a city sidewalk late very late at night there

[01:06:34] aren't many people around you're not familiar with the neighborhood and you sense a presence behind

[01:06:41] you and you notice that the footsteps start getting quicker and quicker and louder and all of a sudden

[01:06:47] it sounds like someone is running at you and he said you know raise your hand if you feel

[01:06:55] like you're about to be imminently attacked and he had every like you know you had all of us raising

[01:07:02] our hands counted and tallied yep and when we opened our eyes he he had written up on the board women

[01:07:11] however many of us and then men however many of us every single woman in the room raised their hand

[01:07:16] and only one man and when he pointed that out all these guys were like what you don't know what

[01:07:22] they're thinking i was like exactly you have no it only takes being wrong about a stranger one time

[01:07:29] to die like you have to you it's it's a balance that women have to go through all the time of being

[01:07:38] like i don't want to wall out every person in the world i also don't want to be murdered so you know

[01:07:46] when can i be friendly when can i not be friendly when can i give people the benefit of doubt when can i not

[01:07:51] it's it's hard and you know i don't know any women who haven't been in a terrifying situation

[01:07:58] and luckily got out of it but like it's all of us and i i've said this to somebody recently i think that

[01:08:05] even like the best men understand that these things happen but in their mind it's like yeah that's

[01:08:12] probably happened to you two or three times in your life and it's like in my 20s it was two or three times

[01:08:18] a week like it it was when i lived in new york city and i was out and about all the time and i was

[01:08:24] younger and better looking it happened constantly now i mostly go places in my car and i'm older like

[01:08:32] it's not as big of a deal now but you know what that stuff still happens every now and then i'm alone

[01:08:36] somewhere with a man i don't know and he's being weird and my head is like you're looking for exits

[01:08:44] looking for weapons like yeah holding your key in between your fingers when you walk through

[01:08:50] all that and i do feel like there's there's a cognitive dissonance at least for cisgendered

[01:08:56] heterosexual men of because i feel like they do know when it directly impacts their family like my dad

[01:09:04] would say be careful be careful from home dad oh yeah he wasn't talking about women and like you know

[01:09:11] and it's it's just this interesting sort of thing where it's like i i'm worried about my daughter

[01:09:17] going out from men and i've had these conversations as a therapist with patients of like but who are you

[01:09:22] concerned about and it's always men yeah and so it's you know it's sort of like narrowing this down

[01:09:28] and it's like there is this sort of separation that like i don't know it's just it's just an

[01:09:34] interesting sort of thing of like but if you're worried about who your daughter is gonna and you should

[01:09:40] worry about your sons too as like you know littles um who you worry about who you're gonna leave them

[01:09:45] with then why doesn't that also make you angry on changing the world because like as women we don't

[01:09:49] have an option uh you know as people of color especially women of color yeah like you know

[01:09:54] it's there's like there's there's not an option in there so we sort of see this as like playing out

[01:10:00] in the dating scene quite quite a lot and we see us in this episode where dating is potentially lethal

[01:10:05] and so it's you know for women it's just so scary it just makes me think of that quote sorry the men

[01:10:13] are afraid that women will laugh at women are afraid men kill them women are afraid that men will kill

[01:10:17] them they are the number one killers of women for men it's heart attacks yeah yeah um i also think that

[01:10:24] this was a big metaphor about aids the 90s was yes a big time for aids activism and aids awareness

[01:10:33] and uh the concept of safe or safer sex was pretty new the concept of of you know always having condoms

[01:10:43] with you to protect you from somebody's bodily fluids was like everywhere in the media that was

[01:10:50] targeted at people my age at the time like i remember i went to college in the early 90s and

[01:10:56] there were punch bowls full of condoms that at all like parties like it was just like it was a thing

[01:11:03] people were like use a condom use a condom use a condom and aids was terrifying and around the mid 90s

[01:11:11] is when it really started to jump from the gay community to the straight community and just gonna say

[01:11:18] this kind of casual sex picking people up at singles bars and going home with them was something i never

[01:11:25] did because i was terrified of aids terrified of it me too and i was like i'm not gonna just sleep

[01:11:32] with somebody for one night who could kill me like i'm not gonna do it and yeah it's scary i think that

[01:11:41] it takes a lot of trust in another person yeah and in yourself and like it's a big leap yeah like and

[01:11:48] especially for cell phones like yeah like what is going on nowadays it's like i mean when you go out

[01:11:55] on a date like if you're in you know if you're going if you're heterosexual dating if you're going out on

[01:11:59] a date the woman unless you've really known them for a long time it's 50 50 they might kill you if you

[01:12:06] get alone with them so like i mean you these are strangers um so like you know it's but it's not the

[01:12:12] same the odds aren't the same for men and men get really really offended sometimes if you want to do

[01:12:19] things to feel safe like oh i'd rather i'd rather drive myself uh let's meet somewhere public i don't

[01:12:26] want to come to your house i don't know you those kind of things i have had guys react really badly

[01:12:31] to me saying things like that and i'm like you know what i don't want to go out with you if you don't

[01:12:35] understand why the like i'm not judging you personally this isn't personal this is about

[01:12:42] statistics and probability i had a guy that i knew who was really insulted that this woman had said to

[01:12:49] him well so i checked the sex offender registry in your neighborhood and there's no one who lives in

[01:12:56] that neighborhood with your name or who's your age on the list and he was so offended that she would have

[01:13:02] checked and i was like that doesn't have anything to do with you she probably found out the hard way

[01:13:07] that that was a good idea she probably dated someone who was on the registry and she regretted

[01:13:12] not knowing it and he was like oh i never thought about it that way i was like don't take that kind of

[01:13:17] stuff personally congratulate her on being smart yeah vigilant and like yeah like you're not on the

[01:13:24] list why are you so offended right like i don't know maybe i'm just spoiled like i know i love i

[01:13:30] know a lot of really great cisgendered heterosexual guys and like they would hear something like that

[01:13:36] and be like oh that's awful i feel bad for her like you know seeing that aspect yeah like try to put

[01:13:43] yourself in their shoes for just a second just just well i think it's like the entitlement yeah like the

[01:13:50] the entitlement to having women but it's you know and i think with the aids crisis when it you know

[01:13:56] moved into the heterosexual um sphere of it yeah men had to be worried too and they still do i think

[01:14:02] all of us still have to worry about stis yeah it's more of a common part of of conversation now

[01:14:08] in the 90s there were still a lot of people who were like i don't like using condoms and and you'd be

[01:14:14] like but it's for safety and they'd be like oh come on i'm clean like that stuff was very common and

[01:14:20] i don't know if it's my age range but i haven't found that to be a problem in the last like 10 years

[01:14:26] it still happens gross gross yep gross like it doesn't feel the same i don't give a toenails

[01:14:37] well i found the perfect response yeah if if if you don't know uh if if if

[01:14:47] if i was like toenail oh if if if they say that and i didn't come up with this i read this on on

[01:14:53] the internet from other women they say oh it doesn't feel the same you say okay that's great i i

[01:14:58] wanted to get pregnant so i let let's do this let's let's have let's do it and like and like

[01:15:05] sure enough i have only said it once if we make one of my yeah and one of my favorite comedians

[01:15:11] jackie cation her line was does it feel better than not having sex at all because that's the only

[01:15:17] other choice yep and she said in my experience men always choose sex over no sex

[01:15:27] it's funny or you know it's like well i don't have a condom and then all of a sudden i know yeah oh

[01:15:34] wait i forgot that i keep one in my pocket yeah um yeah and then it's like well no sex for you now

[01:15:41] because now i'm i'm drier than the sahara thank you sir i have sent a man out to 7-eleven before

[01:15:50] i've been like yeah there's a 7-eleven on the next block if you are really interested you'll go

[01:15:56] and buy some condoms and come back and he did yeah yeah and i've never been it was a very progressive

[01:16:04] environment and so there was a bulletin board on each floor and there was always a box a

[01:16:10] like a giant box of condoms for the record i also keep them in my house but when a guy shows up with

[01:16:15] no condom i make him go buy them i like that yeah because like i've never been because i remember like

[01:16:23] the the thing that was kind of going around at least when i was in college was like oh if the guy brings

[01:16:28] the condom then that means they're expecting sex and it's like no that just means they're prepared

[01:16:33] yeah like i don't i don't know like like that's not a problem for me i mean men don't typically carry

[01:16:38] purses but like it's the kind of thing you should just have wallet just put it in your bag or whatever

[01:16:45] and you never know when you're gonna need it and you'll be glad you had it and you know what there

[01:16:50] are other uses for condoms that aren't sex too you might need to protect your hand from something

[01:16:55] gross you never know that was like a water balloon did you guys ever do that fill up the condom

[01:17:05] there's a crafting channel on instagram that i look at sometimes and they did a whole series of crafts

[01:17:13] using unlubricated condoms to uh block things from getting paint on them and it was hilarious

[01:17:20] they were putting and it was partially like an attempt to show that like condoms are stretchy

[01:17:25] like this whole like oh it won't fit me thing is a myth oh yeah and so they were like i'm gonna paint

[01:17:30] this door and they would like put it over the doorknob and i was like you know what a condom's

[01:17:34] really useful for that kind of thing that makes perfect sense they are non non lubricated yes

[01:17:39] yeah not non lubricated otherwise yeah no no yeah they were i did like they i did like the um

[01:17:48] at least with the initial scene with the body that the demon was first occupying it reminded me of the

[01:17:55] twist in the buffy season one episode one with darla where they hired a creepy actor to like be and

[01:18:03] you're like oh my gosh the guy is the vampire oh and then she's the vampire yeah yeah and then they have

[01:18:08] kevin who's a creeper i mean like i mean not that bad but you're you're expecting right because she

[01:18:13] looks like you know you know a little scared to be honest and so like you're like oh gosh is she

[01:18:18] gonna be okay it turns out she's a monster yeah which i wish more men were afraid of the demon into her

[01:18:28] and then the next night she sleeps with the guy that's a little

[01:18:33] oh yeah because when she shows back up she's in like her lipstick darker like her hair's done up

[01:18:42] differently yeah but i do love too the little subtlety when kevin's friend shows up to the

[01:18:49] bar he's like he's been missing and he starts saying all this negative crap about the woman that kevin went

[01:18:55] home with and then he's like oh no was there a few times like of course you got rejected yeah and that's

[01:19:00] why yeah i really wanted him to die i really wanted him to die okay he's next one of my favorite

[01:19:06] moments of the whole episode just because it was so dated is that he finds out angel finds out sarah's

[01:19:13] last name and he goes to the phone book and looks up her address and then he rips the page out of the

[01:19:18] phone book which is very terminator and um it just made me laugh so hard i was like oh phone books god

[01:19:25] they were everywhere uh meeting in person that and the computer graphics yeah computer graphics

[01:19:33] pick dating and clubs and bars what a very fast dial-up connection they had those pages didn't

[01:19:40] have to load at all i know i know and doyle's little weird mimicry of typing was very funny

[01:19:46] yeah the whole thing the whole like how impressed angel was that doyle knew how to use a computer all

[01:19:52] that stuff is so dated uh and it was so cute like cordy being we know that cordy is smart i i don't

[01:19:59] believe for a second that she didn't know the name of that bar and how to type it that was a that was

[01:20:03] a dumb moment in the writing yeah i wish we had more cordy and doyle i miss them a little in this

[01:20:11] episode i like their dynamic yeah and how doyle instead like that whole thing when you know that

[01:20:17] guy's being a jackass to them and i remember thinking oh he's gonna punch him in the face

[01:20:24] when he like kind of hurls back and then he's just like head butts him like practically face butts

[01:20:28] him i know and then he goes like hold his head so so i it could be the nitpicker in me um i could

[01:20:37] definitely tell that scene was written by a man yeah um like because like you you could just tell

[01:20:43] i mean as someone who has been asked if i'm a hooker uh like you know as a sex worker um and like it's

[01:20:54] like when even to the point where like you know her reaction is very valid and then doyle goes easy

[01:20:59] cordy and then she gets mad it's like yeah knock it off like what are you doing just say stop that

[01:21:05] that's very rude like don't call her a sex worker like what is your problem dude like it was just

[01:21:12] like you couldn't just verbally like intercede immediately you had to wait until he went all

[01:21:17] the way to the worst stuff like he progressed and then you punt like you head butted him i'm like

[01:21:22] oh man a man totally wrote this yeah because we also don't want violence well i think that there is

[01:21:27] a fantasy a lot of men have of protecting a woman in a moment like that and then she's grateful

[01:21:33] for being rescued and i do love that at no point another man did cordy go like oh doyle you're my

[01:21:40] hero and like kiss him exactly because well and you see that happen in a lot of media it's a it's a

[01:21:48] fantasy though i think i think that a lot of guys want to be able to be a knight in shining armor and

[01:21:54] rescue a woman and and therefore prove their worth as like a protector and also get the girl as a reward

[01:22:02] which they've been taught in like countless decades of movies and books and tv shows that is what

[01:22:09] happens is that you punch out the guy at the bar who's being rude and then you get the girl and i

[01:22:15] think that's why they don't come they don't yeah guys plan it one guy will go and be rude and gross

[01:22:22] and then his friend will step in and save the girl from him and then he gets to talk to the girl

[01:22:28] it's 100 pre-planned in those cases it's gross and apparently it works i think a lot of women are also

[01:22:35] raised from a young age to want to be rescued like to think being rescued is romantic yeah like you know

[01:22:43] like fairy tales yeah like disney movies start off like that i like how disney's moving away from

[01:22:48] that trope but like yeah it's there's there's a difference between like you know obviously these

[01:22:52] these are what these are the simplified ways men are approaching this there's a there's a difference

[01:22:57] between like advocating for your friend and defending her and i think that's something that is very much

[01:23:03] needed in this political political biosocial issues that we've been having i think that's a big thing

[01:23:09] that's missing is men standing up and saying i'm actually for lgbtq right yeah i'm not a member

[01:23:16] of women's right before it escalates to violence yeah like immediately step in and be like that's not

[01:23:23] cool we don't talk to people that way exactly because the violence part is not like helping

[01:23:30] it no you need to cut them off because then that becomes the focus that guy did not learn a lesson

[01:23:35] about not talking to women that way that guy learned oh it like sometimes irish dudes will

[01:23:42] headbutt you you know what i mean like he yeah a hundred and he had fun he was like yeah i got thrown

[01:23:49] out of a bar last night like everything that that guy took away from that environment was about toxic

[01:23:54] masculinity he didn't learn like calling a woman a hooker to her face is not a way to get her to go out

[01:24:01] with you like that's what he needed to learn yeah yeah and i know like so many guys who don't approve

[01:24:09] of that behavior are you calling it out when it happens and they're saying like yes i do i'm like

[01:24:14] then not enough because it's happening to so many the three of us alone like it's happening to so many

[01:24:20] of us right right now and it's like i mean i think you need to hold seminars then because like there's so

[01:24:26] many things of this happening in the moment that yeah just verbally stand up and do that it's actually

[01:24:33] you don't need women to be around women aren't yeah yeah say something to your dude friend at in

[01:24:41] the locker room or wherever it is when they say gross stuff be like that's gross i don't

[01:24:47] i don't tolerate that kind of yeah you know rhetoric about women don't use the word rhetoric they'll

[01:24:52] make fun of you but like they're like too many is too many letters no i'm kidding there was a there

[01:24:59] was a moment later um in the sort of climactic fight that was definitely also written by a man and it

[01:25:07] it bothers me and it stays with me is that angel says to the bartender guy while those two are fighting

[01:25:13] you know when the bartender has become the demon he says it's tough being the guy if you don't get to

[01:25:19] finish you just come apart at the seams and yes that's what was happening to the demon in that

[01:25:26] moment but the idea that that there's this myth that was so popular when i was a teenager and now

[01:25:34] i'm too old to ever hear it from men but of like blue balls or like oh if you got me excited you owe

[01:25:40] it to me to finish me off men can't handle it if they don't get to finish and like early on in my life

[01:25:46] i learned the words well then go masturbate but a lot of women have been pressured into sex using this

[01:25:53] this idea that like it's it's cruel and horrible to get a man aroused and not you know have sex with

[01:26:01] him it's garbage one of my ex friends who is a guy would pull that toenails damn it i did it again

[01:26:09] toenail would pull that on his wife gross and i remember him bringing it up within earshot and he

[01:26:18] was telling my husband my husband at the time and another guy and i was just like that's disgusting

[01:26:25] i was like are you 15 this is the one that you vowed to love you and you're treating her like you're

[01:26:33] trying to trick her into sex that's that's nasty i want to know why the demon keeps going back to the

[01:26:41] same bar la is you guys huge uh yeah so the the cynical part of me is like because that makes it

[01:26:50] easier to write the episode the generous part of me says maybe this demon is territorial and and it

[01:26:57] like there's but then i was like ew are there more of these demons at every other bar in los angeles

[01:27:02] like gross i know or maybe the demon has like a little hovel or nest or whatever nearby like

[01:27:09] their home like same as how serial killers hunt which i'm assuming like kate when she is talking

[01:27:15] to angel she makes the point that the bar is close to home so i was like well and you know how serial

[01:27:21] killers typically operate within kind of their zone of comfort whether it's near their home near

[01:27:28] their place of work something so i assumed i was like maybe the demon just likes this crappy bar

[01:27:34] yeah this is where they're gone and there are a lot of people there i mean it seems like good

[01:27:39] hunting grounds that it's been killing lots of people there when being able to change appearance

[01:27:46] definitely yeah i i want to play this part about the demon looking for the right body so i thought

[01:27:52] this was really interesting and it was you know again this is a show that's a metaphor that makes demons

[01:27:57] metaphors for issues that humans have you're not human newsflash pal you're bit off the evolutionary

[01:28:04] chart yourself this has to stop you have to stop i will when i find the right one the one i can stay with

[01:28:17] the right body what's wrong with this one nothing yet it's new and different

[01:28:28] it's great but it won't last i already know it's not the one i can live in then i have to be the one

[01:28:37] you die in angel gets the best lines like i know but you know the guy the demon talks about connection

[01:28:47] and wanting to find the right one and all of us want to find the right one or i guess for some

[01:28:53] people two or three people to be with and and and knowing that the person that you're with in the

[01:29:01] moment won't last that happens all the time but you get lonely and sometimes you just you settle for

[01:29:07] not the right one but you know what do they call it it's not mr right it's mr right now like

[01:29:12] sometimes you're lonely and so you you you hang out with or date or sleep with somebody who you

[01:29:19] know isn't the right person and you know it won't last but it gets you through a lonely period and

[01:29:25] everything that this demon does is super realistic up to the part where it like bursts out of the chest

[01:29:30] and eats you know inhabits the other person all the rest of it we're not murdering people too

[01:29:34] very realistic you know like yeah i mean i i can only speak for myself i've never murdered anyone

[01:29:41] no i won't say yes on the record

[01:29:46] yes this this conversation is being recorded

[01:29:54] but yeah i i i think you bring up a great point penny because it's it is the relatability

[01:30:01] of this lonely heart of and you know i think it says a lot that they're not only jumping bodies but

[01:30:08] it's coming out of their chest into the other person it's literally ripping its heart out like

[01:30:12] rip and then like burrowing into the other person very phallic um it's but it's yeah it's super relatable

[01:30:21] and it's it's interesting that it's a demon that preys on both sexes because i think that in general

[01:30:29] women are more prey and men are more predators just statistically but i do like the equal

[01:30:35] opportunity treatment in the episode like it it does happen to men like jeffrey dommer

[01:30:42] exclusively serial killed men so you know it's not just women um it happens it's uh there are female

[01:30:51] serial killers who kill men too it's just there's not very many of them that's pretty rare yeah i mean

[01:30:55] and it's like dommer and gacy eileen yeah it's the one that comes for eileen um but like dommer and gacy

[01:31:01] like they were they targeted boys and young men like they they weren't going after men in their 30s and

[01:31:08] 40s for the most part so it isn't and well there's also goes hand in hand with vulnerability right like

[01:31:15] this is why you know a lot of predators like to go after women or men who are like 19 right it's like

[01:31:24] barely legal but doesn't have the wisdom of experience to to see the red flags and to run away from you

[01:31:30] that it's just yeah it's a disgusting aspect of human relationships that it happens over and over

[01:31:37] over again it's very predictable yeah but i did like this episode you know how you talked about penny

[01:31:45] that you grew to appreciate it more this time around i know that the you know the metaphor

[01:31:54] in it can kind of feel like it's hitting you over the head repeatedly but i really liked how they carried on

[01:32:01] this theme throughout the entire episode of loneliness and connection and there was one scene in particular

[01:32:09] that kind of struck me that hadn't before and i don't know how with my english major over analytical

[01:32:17] brain but when kate you know when he angel runs into kate outside of the bar again and she oh no when

[01:32:26] she's in the bar and invites him to leave with her and said you know come on like let's get out of here

[01:32:33] like somewhere more quiet and angel kind of says you know i can't i have to stay here which of course

[01:32:39] because of the investigation he has to stay but at the same time i feel like he can't make connections

[01:32:49] with people like cordy points out the risk of if he sleeps with someone he might experience a moment of

[01:32:57] true happiness and so i kind of feel like that has a little bit of a double meaning and i'm noticing

[01:33:04] that more watching the episodes for podcasting through a more analytical lens so it just made me

[01:33:11] kind of really excited to keep going forward because if the writing and the storytelling is already this

[01:33:18] solid and detailed and multi-layered i cannot wait to go yeah there's some stuff coming

[01:33:26] at the end of this season and into season two that is absolutely fascinating

[01:33:33] i i'm there are so many good episodes of angel coming i i think the show in general is overlooked i

[01:33:39] think a lot of people loved buffy and just never even gave angel the time of day which is too bad

[01:33:46] because it's it's excellent excellent stuff and it gets better as it goes so much like it doesn't

[01:33:54] slow down and like your point cara like reminded me of a part of the episode is the very end that

[01:34:00] also made me think twice about it that i hadn't thought about before watching it i have a clip do

[01:34:06] you want to hear it yes please i know you guys have been working hard i mean cooped up inside a lot

[01:34:11] and uh show my appreciation i was thinking the night being you know young at all that the three of us

[01:34:20] could i should you know maybe uh go out or we can go home

[01:34:42] and you could sit in the dark alone i love that you made a sound clip of that angel so relatable i

[01:34:55] am angel so that is relatable to me on so many levels because when he said god yes i felt that in

[01:35:02] my soul and then i also felt it because it it's very quick and and i really i think i have to only

[01:35:09] credit david borianna's with this because i i mean as we've seen from the episode the writers a little

[01:35:13] bit of you know blind spots in there his face changes a little bit so like you see him relaxing

[01:35:20] into the silence the dark where he feels more at home and then you sort of see this little bit of

[01:35:26] sadness take over him it's very small and very subtle and that's kind of me when i think i want

[01:35:31] to be alone for a lot for a long time like i'm gonna have this weekend all to myself and then by

[01:35:36] like saturday afternoon i'm like i'm lonely so nice to have another person alone together yeah i i

[01:35:48] love my alone time i'm such an introvert i i love canceled plans oh nothing's better than

[01:35:54] canceled plans are the best i love my friends i'm social but i also there's a constant back and

[01:36:01] forth of me wanting to like socialize or be alone and there and i'm also kind of broody so there are

[01:36:08] a lot of ways that i identify with angel i mean i don't keep like axes and stuff in my house but um

[01:36:15] i i do have a lot of alone time he needs a cat is what he needs he does i'm great i know i know you

[01:36:23] guys talked about dogs in the first episode because david boriannis obviously loves his dogs

[01:36:27] i think angel is a cat person i really do think that he's a cat person because also you can't take

[01:36:33] your dog out for a walk in the middle of the day so like i really feel like a cat fits more of his

[01:36:38] personality uh that that kind of stuff just get a lap dog yeah right so it's um but yeah i just sort

[01:36:44] of related to all of that it just resonated with me so differently now as an adult uh so like even as

[01:36:50] extrovert shocking i'm like i need some recharge and so i was like it's so nice that he makes an

[01:36:59] effort to like go out with him like he offers it because he knows that it would be something that

[01:37:04] would make them but he's just uh i love watching their friendship so cute it's really cute i will say

[01:37:10] too david boriannis is just like sarah michelle gellar is very good with like the subtle face acting

[01:37:17] because there was another scene that stood out when you know he goes to

[01:37:22] sharon sharon's apartment worried that she's the next victim and that look on his face when he's

[01:37:28] able to like burst in the door there's like a split second of surprise like oh like oh i wasn't invited

[01:37:33] in crap oh i didn't even catch that little things like that yeah yeah he has a moment of realization

[01:37:39] right after he bursts in the door yeah that but it's just i love that they don't spell that out for

[01:37:45] us like he doesn't say oh ah she must already be dead like that doesn't happen they leave it up to

[01:37:52] you to figure out and there were a couple of how like i know that i had read a couple of things way back

[01:38:00] when when i was you know nerdy and looking at like oh when you were nerdy and stuff back in the past

[01:38:07] okay when i was specifically being nerdy by looking at buffy forms i'm still nerdy that don't you now

[01:38:17] you just podcast about it yes a different type of nerdiness comes out but people would get all

[01:38:26] pissy thinking that like doyle and cordy and uh angel didn't have chemistry and i really feel

[01:38:33] like they do from the beginning like i love their dynamic i love when they go over to cordelia's

[01:38:39] apartment and they're all just kind of like oh and doyle at first is like no it's it's refreshing

[01:38:44] to see a woman and then he steps in the bowl full maybe was like scrambled eggs

[01:38:49] and he's just like you're just i love that first of all her crappy apartment is huge

[01:38:54] i want a huge crappy apartment like that at first i was really surprised that it was so messy like

[01:39:05] i understand cheap and run down but you know dirty dishes on the floor and like old takeout containers

[01:39:13] everywhere and laundry everywhere but then i realized it's just depressed this is this is cordy

[01:39:19] yeah in transition and yeah and living like that is just an expression of how she's feeling and i think

[01:39:28] we'll see a progression as she's more and more integrated in the purpose and the work yes of angel

[01:39:35] investigations and then there's a spoiler yeah there's a spoiler yeah structure and belonging versus

[01:39:43] judgment and ostracization from the la yeah you know community so the the last the last point i had

[01:39:52] was i wanted to get your guys's take on this of so kate the cop broke into angel's apartment without

[01:40:00] a warrant and and noticed some very sus things i know that she thinks he's a private investigator

[01:40:06] like a thing of blood in his fridge like so like i get that like she knows he's not the serial killer

[01:40:14] that was that was doing this okay is she just like cool you're just quirky like she doesn't sort of

[01:40:22] bring up like i think she does tell him that she broke into his apartment i don't think that that's a

[01:40:28] genuine like i feel like you should know this i think that was what's he gonna say when i tell him

[01:40:33] and she is like a test she is acting like she's okay with it but in her head she's like what is this

[01:40:41] guy's deal i gotta keep my eyes open she's still information gathering and testing his reactions

[01:40:50] and she clearly like it's i think it's made fair fairly clear to us that she has good intuition yes like

[01:40:58] she obviously could sense that something was off and she's angel she just didn't know what it

[01:41:03] yeah she's just and she doesn't know about vampires so it's not her go-to guess but i think you're

[01:41:11] right that she's like this guy is not all okay and then she looks at his apartment and she's like

[01:41:18] everything here is weird and i'm gonna i'm gonna you know keep my distance from this guy and then but

[01:41:26] also she broke into his apartment and searched it without a warrant you know she's a rogue cop who

[01:41:32] plays by her own rules it's a trope yeah but i was like damn it kate i hate that in tv shows because

[01:41:39] i feel like it already perpetuates this horrible yeah but i was like please don't well kate

[01:41:46] because she was acting so normal and i'm like i am not a cop i am a pretty liberal understanding

[01:41:54] person i think you know just by you know characteristic of my of my craft and everything

[01:41:58] um but like i'm i'm sorry if i if i see a bottle of blood in an empty fridge in someone's place

[01:42:05] uh-huh i'm leaving and i have a lot of questions i'm going to ask in public and like and like there

[01:42:12] were a bunch of weapons um like i mean i think people i think artists use it in painting i think

[01:42:18] that would be the only thing that would sort of be normal but like like yeah maybe he works in

[01:42:24] special monster effects like he has like it's like a blood facial it's like a aesthetic they do have

[01:42:31] those like the vampire for that it could be his own blood well she it could be his own she doesn't

[01:42:37] know i still have more questions yeah there's a lot of questions but i think that she is playing

[01:42:43] the wrong game and and luring him into a false sense of security with her i i think that's caught

[01:42:50] that's cop kate being circumspect yeah that makes sense okay thank you because i was like that that

[01:42:56] makes a lot of sense yeah i love though that he does a classic angel which is she turns her head

[01:43:02] and then he's gone just like which is so angel he does that all the time he loves it and i realized

[01:43:08] that it's at the time i did not know the phrase irish goodbye i was just gonna say but now i know it

[01:43:14] and i'm like yeah he is irish that's hilarious irish goodbyes everybody he just like he originated

[01:43:20] that he's like i'm bringing this back i lost my accent living in america for like a hundred years

[01:43:28] but i kept the irish goodbye yeah you know one other thing that i noticed i was looking at what

[01:43:35] notes i still have left and one of the main things that felt almost jarring watching this after having

[01:43:41] watched buffy for so long and angel in buffy is when he first starts laughing and smiling at kate i was

[01:43:49] like oh my gosh there's this team we don't see this very much when when when do we see his human

[01:43:56] but it's actually genuine with kate like they have a good banter back and forth and i was like that's

[01:44:05] right we get to see more of like happy angel in this show like it starts to come out yeah so that's

[01:44:11] it's just it's such a fun that stick that's lodged to place him in gets put down a little bit further

[01:44:18] cordelia kind of would have that effect on you inevitably if you're around her that much

[01:44:23] she's gonna lose you hilarious too same with doyle she's blunt and direct and hilarious

[01:44:28] yeah oh my god the line where he in her apartment when angel is telling them that he saw the demon he's

[01:44:36] like i saw it it's a burrower and she goes it's a donkey oh we didn't see any donkey demons and i was

[01:44:41] like not burro i can't pronounce it but i was just like that i was like that is pretty yeah that's

[01:44:47] funny like i i feel i really enjoyed that exchange good i love cordy's like i feel like she's been my

[01:44:54] favorite in the rewatch and like i just i really like i relate to her uncomfortably to to some degree

[01:45:01] and yes i would absolutely love to be her friend yeah like just like that sort of humor and bluntness

[01:45:06] like i find that very interesting and she's brave and she's kind and she's loyal so it's like you

[01:45:11] would make a good she's very thoughtful too like but she'll call you out on your always good nail

[01:45:17] then it'll be fantastic when the first time that kate confronts angel and he's in the room with the

[01:45:27] dead body and then he jumps out the window i just wanted to point out that shot is in the credits

[01:45:31] where he dives out the window and then lands on the car um yeah that's a good shot and there's a

[01:45:36] weird shot where he's just walking down the street it looks like daylight i'm like what's happening

[01:45:42] it does i noticed that too i think it's meant to look like like early morning before the sun comes up but

[01:45:49] it was just they don't do a good job with that yeah yeah i also assume that there's this underlying

[01:45:56] connection where they never talk about it not connection tone of you know angel's sadness and

[01:46:02] adjusting to life without buffy that can't go you know unmentioned i feel like where he is in this

[01:46:09] place where he's trying to make connections and dealing with a demon that is lonely and seeking

[01:46:15] out connections with all these people where he is starting to deal with his own loneliness and his

[01:46:21] loss of connection with buffy and i feel like that would hit a little bit more watching them back to

[01:46:28] back and oh that's for a spoiler that's another point yeah spoiler i know but but it's it's right

[01:46:35] like and cordy addresses it in the show of like you can't like what is that that may west quote the best

[01:46:41] way to get over someone is to get under someone else oh yeah and so he okay so it is addressed

[01:46:47] yeah she said you can't really do that can you yeah yeah so like i think that oh that's right

[01:46:54] oh poor angel i know i know and so vampires i mean i guess vampires would have sex a sex drive but

[01:47:02] they don't have i mean spike and triscilla certainly had a lot of motivation holy hell and spike and other

[01:47:09] people and we know angel and other people but like i i think like it would be a lot harder for him

[01:47:16] because he would have to explain why his body is room temperature and he has no heartbeat yeah or

[01:47:21] any reflection i mean i think he's pretty enough that he could get a one night stand

[01:47:25] blood get yeah there's a lot of there's a lot of um vampire biology that doesn't make sense

[01:47:35] i say magic but in the twilight universe they basically say that all of their bodily fluids are

[01:47:41] just replaced with venom which is also a problem in a lot of ways because how did bella and ever

[01:47:48] kiss if you get you get venom ingested they barely ever kiss they they don't kiss very much yeah it has

[01:47:56] to be all like dry lip though is is that like is that like where the i'm going off on a whole other

[01:48:03] thing i was i i've never been a big twilight fan but like i was like i have so many questions even just

[01:48:09] for like vampire to vampire venom exchange but like and anyway but like um i feel like maybe that's a

[01:48:16] hiatus movie series yeah we should be twilight because you two love it and i could just be the

[01:48:22] the snark in the background it's just so much fun to snark at it's ridiculous but with an amazing

[01:48:30] soundtrack the music in all the twilight movies is so good yeah and and really phenomenal actors in

[01:48:37] there but yeah so it's i mean whenever there's something about vampire anatomy and physiology i

[01:48:42] don't really understand i always just think it's magic because remember they're not natural they're

[01:48:46] supernatural yeah so there has to be magic in them so it's i'm that's how i just sort of you know

[01:48:56] when when when that happens yeah you just have to yada yada over that stuff yeah thank you

[01:49:01] it's magic we'll never know so i already said what my favorite part of outdated technology was

[01:49:10] which was the phone book what about you guys oh yeah yeah what's what's yours that freaking

[01:49:17] i don't know the computer graphics oh the eight bit or four bit giggling it yeah i was just like that

[01:49:23] because overall like the fashion dates it sure but once that computer screen popped up i was like oh

[01:49:30] my gosh this is old this is i was having flashbacks of playing like organ trail on my dad's work

[01:49:40] computer in his home office or reader rabbit yeah or another one i think for for me there was one

[01:49:49] fashion and then i mean i already said like just like meeting at a club to date for singles i feel

[01:49:55] like that's gone out and now most of us meet on apps um but it's true as far as fashion the bleach

[01:50:04] blonde hair that was happening in that time i remember i also had my hair which is very very dark

[01:50:10] naturally um like it's like i think in my hairstyle said it was like an eight n or something like really

[01:50:16] dark my hair is naturally super like darker than what i have right now super dark but like i did this

[01:50:22] too and you can see it sarah michelle gellar did it a bit in season three and and in the beginning of

[01:50:27] season four of buffy bleach blonde i'm talking like targaryen flavor hair and you know that the horrible

[01:50:34] teeny tiny bangs that she has in season three micro bang it's because baby because she fried her hair

[01:50:41] with bleach and the hair in the front was so damaged they ended up cutting the baby bangs that was not

[01:50:47] the plan like she could pull it off though she's so pretty that it works but yeah i'm it's it's like

[01:50:57] a horrible she could be bald and she'd probably look yeah 100 yeah i mean that happened to uh lily

[01:51:02] reinhardt when she was doing um the riverdale thing is is because like on on these shows they want them

[01:51:08] to really show up vividly on camera so it's like she's naturally a blonde and it was like just

[01:51:14] heavy duty bleaching to the point where her hair was like getting like falling out and breaking off

[01:51:19] and stuff so they end up just like putting in um pieces and like wigs and stuff because it was

[01:51:23] ridiculous but yeah like you can see it like with um what what was her name sharon sharon you could

[01:51:32] it was sharon i mean like yeah leech targaryen flavor hair yeah and same thing with kate like

[01:51:37] we see her in law and order and she's definitely a blonde it's just like it's so it's so emphasized

[01:51:44] yeah yeah and the bright chunky highlights and all that stuff oh my gosh yeah so i feel like that was

[01:51:50] just very it's like i'm like oh i see it in the buffy episodes too i'm like oh i remember that time

[01:51:55] yeah it was not a good time for hair health no no that and the the t-shirt under the sports coat

[01:52:02] reminded me of like night at the rocks it's also super miami vice which is a whole decade earlier yes

[01:52:09] they just needed to push the sleeves i know i may or may not yeah i may or may not do that trend when i

[01:52:15] do conventions although it's not like a crew neck it's like a v-neck and i i wear that with like a

[01:52:21] like a blazer over it it's not a horrible look it's just dated like it's 100 dated yeah that and

[01:52:28] like i think of the santa claus when tim allen oh gosh i just watched this for christmas that's the

[01:52:36] only reason this is coming up when he can't fit into his clothes anymore he wears like a t-shirt

[01:52:41] sweatpants and a sports coat over it and that was the very first thing that i thought of when i saw this

[01:52:46] guy yeah almost there almost there that's that's a sad look but um which is also in the late i have

[01:52:55] been known to um wear the uh band t-shirt with a blazer over it look i like that um that feels more

[01:53:05] intentional and yeah it's it's it's a little late 80s but um i like it yeah i i like it i feel like

[01:53:13] i'm a big proponent of everybody wearing whatever the hell they want also that and you know when i go

[01:53:19] to conferences i want to push back because i'm dei motivated so i want to push back on the formality

[01:53:24] of conferences so when i present i typically present like in a semi-casual way because i'm also for that

[01:53:31] we need to stop policing particularly women's bodies when it comes to presenting so i'm there are

[01:53:36] certain legal conferences where you're supposed to be like in a suit every day and i really like the

[01:53:43] ones that don't care if i show up in yoga pants yeah hoodie yes from my hotel room yeah and that is

[01:53:48] how i dress for the rest of the conference is yoga pants and a hoodie and i'm just i'm just walking

[01:53:52] around like cool like i'm gonna start setting the stage like no i'm i'm exhausted professional

[01:53:58] while comfortable yes and i have done that as a supervisor when other people in the hospital want

[01:54:05] to start judging trainees for what they wear and i'm like i don't think i've ever done you talk so far as

[01:54:11] yoga pants but my uh professional career after the law firm was a lot about like jeans like the level of

[01:54:22] formality was was jeans and um that is nice i love it the firm i'm at now we can wear jeans and

[01:54:34] it's fairly casual like dressy casual my firm was definitely a no jeans place but um yeah then i went to

[01:54:42] work in a software company and there were people in the engineering department wearing pajamas to work

[01:54:49] and i was like oh this is not the same interesting but i what you can do not have did not want to go as

[01:54:58] far as pajamas at work i i stayed like yeah i wanted to have like a little bit of a an air of professional

[01:55:06] something like as the company lawyer i felt like i couldn't be one of them but well as attorneys i feel

[01:55:13] like people have a very specific image in their mind of what a professional attorney looks like so i usually try

[01:55:22] to make sure oh yeah i try to make sure that if i'm sitting behind a table i still look professional

[01:55:30] but it's gotten better yeah we'll say it's like for for women in fields and people of color it's still

[01:55:35] i feel like the pressure i will not wear high heels ever again i'm done i'm done that sucks that you guys

[01:55:42] had to wear high heels in your jobs that is like there are some courtrooms that still require the judges

[01:55:48] set their local rules they'll require you to wear high heels there used to be a judge in my area that

[01:55:55] required women to wear only skirt suits and high heels that was an ally um episode too where like

[01:56:04] sounds about right like the judge like made her wear some on a seer teeth when i was interviewing for

[01:56:09] law firm jobs the advice i got from every working female lawyer was wear a skirt suit if you wear a

[01:56:17] pantsuit they'll make note of it it'll be a topic of conversation instead of your qualifications

[01:56:23] i got that too our career services department would talk about that with female students

[01:56:29] and i remember the i at the da's office i wore a skirt suit to interview and then on my first day

[01:56:37] i wore a skirt suit and the division i was in at the time there were three other women

[01:56:44] and that's it it was all women and they all made fun of me for wearing a skirt suit i was like do we not

[01:56:49] have to do that yeah is this is this not a thing because sign me up well that's a whole they weren't

[01:56:56] people

[01:56:58] they'd be like oh you poor traumatized picture i have a clip that is applicable hang on

[01:57:03] yeah this socializing thing is brutal yeah

[01:57:10] i love that too

[01:57:11] facts

[01:57:13] wait i'm gonna play that again

[01:57:15] this socializing thing is brutal

[01:57:16] i feel like we should put angel

[01:57:20] save that sound clip for like in future episodes

[01:57:24] yeah i'm definitely adding that to my soundboard along with the police of sunnydale are deeply stupid

[01:57:29] like it's just such a great line

[01:57:32] i love it

[01:57:35] it's time to move on to pop and not pop culture references

[01:57:41] first up cordelia makes the comment that doyle's visions would be cooler if they self-destructed in

[01:57:48] five seconds which is of course a reference to both the tv series mission impossible which ran from

[01:57:54] 1966 to 1973 and the 1996 film remake starring tom cruise which is now a series of of mission

[01:58:04] impossible films i haven't seen the last couple but they are very well made they are good annoyingly so

[01:58:11] like i don't want to support that man

[01:58:16] they are very well done

[01:58:18] the bartender says sharon was talking to quote some screech who ends up being the burrowers

[01:58:24] burrowers demon's second victim burrowers is a hard word to say

[01:58:29] it is a hard word

[01:58:31] it is uh comparing her companion to the nerdy character portrayed by dustin diamond from the

[01:58:36] popular tv series saved by the bell the other reference they could have gone with would be urkel but

[01:58:42] it would have been racially insensitive yeah yes yes when sharon mentions her childhood dreams

[01:58:50] she mentions the iconic romantically involved character dolls ken and barbie

[01:58:56] doyle states that narrows it down to about what five million suspects in the naked city which is a

[01:59:02] reference to the police procedural series titled naked city that ran from 1958 to 1963

[01:59:09] that was inspired by a semi-documentary film called the naked city in 1948 as in the film each episode

[01:59:18] concluded with a narrator intoning the iconic line there are eight million stories in the naked city

[01:59:24] this has been one of them which i thought was very reminiscent of law and order svu's opening

[01:59:30] narrations it's also very film noir oh very yeah like as soon as you started talking about that i was

[01:59:37] like oh i know yeah there's even more of a connection but i feel like all of us also know the

[01:59:45] yeah like and yeah that's my text tone you just love it especially since you used to work for the

[01:59:50] days and then yeah like there's like the opening special victims unit like yeah no it's that

[01:59:57] definitely tracks uh at one point cordelia says cagney and lacy kate i thought we were hiding from her

[02:00:03] this is a reference to the tv show cagney and lacy about two female detectives that aired from 1981 to

[02:00:09] 1988 and starred the great tyne daily i love tyne daily uh that show was uh ahead of its time it was really

[02:00:19] good it was like the very beginnings of my feminist consciousness i was like wait women can be cops

[02:00:24] like that was great that's why representation's important exactly moving on to a little bit of

[02:00:34] trivia this scene was cut from the original script doyle says good the two of you working separately

[02:00:40] better the odds angel not of her surviving if she finds this thing before i do so that was that must

[02:00:47] have been referencing cordy like looking for the demon so or kate looking for the demon yeah kate i

[02:00:52] think it was yeah kate yeah which okay that thing yeah same same and then david fury wrote this

[02:01:02] episode to replace his original script titled corrupt which also introduced the character of kate

[02:01:08] however in fury's first script kate had a crack cocaine addiction and worked undercover

[02:01:16] as a sex worker gross producer tim minier says the episode was a little bit too hopeless a little too

[02:01:25] grim after the wb rejected the episode it had to be completely rewritten

[02:01:32] whoa i could see the wb like we don't we don't do that

[02:01:37] it's just not hbo it's so hack from like 70s and 80s cop shows the woman always had to go undercover as

[02:01:44] a sex worker she was either a stripper yeah give us a break i give her a crack cocaine addiction

[02:01:51] and the number of times i saw heather locklear and tj hooker oh my gosh going undercover as a sex

[02:01:58] worker yeah there's just like like like you said like all of those shows so and then yeah yeah like

[02:02:04] it this is much better much i'm so glad they didn't do that jeez i know oh man uh the special effects

[02:02:14] supervisor lonnie peristere maybe explains that to get the effect of the demon burrowing but that is a

[02:02:22] hard word burrowing through the character's bodies dave miller built a prosthetic back to identically

[02:02:30] match the actor peristere says we shot the actor doing his action with tracking points little marks

[02:02:37] on his back and i just soft edged matted and tracked in a locked off version of the actor's back with the

[02:02:44] burrowing demon and stuck it on there i was like i'd kind of like to see what that process was like in

[02:02:50] the late 90s and again i lament that we couldn't have present day greg nicotero style effects

[02:02:57] in these shows it'd be amazing that would have been grotesque

[02:03:02] david boreanis's stunt double mike massa says the scene in which he is tossed across the room

[02:03:07] upside down is his favorite stunt of the season to get the effect he was shot across the room using

[02:03:12] an air ram i've never even heard of an air ram he says those are the reason i like it so much

[02:03:18] is because it really knocked the heck out of me it was 900 pounds of thrust on the air ram i had to

[02:03:24] hit the corner just right if i was off if i hit it dead center on the corner with my shoulders spread

[02:03:30] it could have broken a collarbone i had to hit it sideways my back flat to the wall and kind of skip

[02:03:36] into it but it just pile drove me right to the ground that doesn't sound fun but i guess if you're a

[02:03:41] stunt actor then that is fun um director james a contner was jumping up and down he thought that

[02:03:48] was the best stunt you'd ever seen yeah stunt actors that sounds like a bunch of like really excited

[02:03:56] boys yeah yeah this is awesome guys work smarter not harder like this is i'm i'm good with more cgi if

[02:04:03] you guys have to risk a broken collarbone um those heal sorry that's why they were celebrating they're

[02:04:11] like yay i almost killed a man in the episode script the talamore was originally named

[02:04:21] zaru zaru zavarux it sounds like a pharmaceutical product zavaro it does it's cajun um it doesn't quite

[02:04:30] roll off the tongue in the same way no i didn't even know it was called the talamore yeah i think

[02:04:37] they always say it out loud yeah one time or something let's see um the plot of this episode

[02:04:44] is similar to the 1987 movie the hidden in which an lapd detective is allied with an alien disguised

[02:04:52] as an fbi agent to find and eliminate a parasitic alien serial killer and sex maniac that does sound

[02:04:58] similar uh the monster is finally killed with a flame here too that would have been cool

[02:05:05] but they did light him on fire and the stunt guy got to do that cool person on fire thing

[02:05:13] that always makes me so nervous have you seen the movie the fall guy they talk about it it's

[02:05:18] that's a great movie oh yeah that is good the ryan gosling remake anyway i love him that's when he's

[02:05:26] is that the one where he sings to taylor swift cries in the car i think so there's that a different one

[02:05:31] because that is seared in my brain in the best way several sources including various dvd releases

[02:05:39] conflict on whether the title of the episode is lonely heart or lonely hearts however david fury

[02:05:44] confirmed that the episode is in fact called lonely heart singular to reflect the demon at the center of

[02:05:50] the storyline either title works because so many people in this episode are lonely but um both the

[02:05:57] demon and the humans it's like the movie parasite i think on some level should be called parasites

[02:06:03] but it works either way true so it's time does it still slay sam i think the theme of the episode

[02:06:22] still slays that dating is a nightmare and being lonely sucks and people have to deal with that i think

[02:06:28] so much in the episode of the self is so dated that it really a lot of it's a struggle bus but the overall

[02:06:36] themes still slay cara i would agree with that it does it i it did kind of take me out of the episode a

[02:06:45] couple times with how dated it seemed which i have not found to be an issue with buffy really so i don't

[02:06:55] know and i also am not a huge fan of gritty tv so i think that's a big part of it i hate clubs i hate

[02:07:04] that scene but i did have a growing appreciation for this episode but i will say a lot of my this is way too

[02:07:13] involved but a lot of my criteria that i think about when i'm deciding whether or not it still

[02:07:18] slays is if i would re-watch it or skip it and i think i would skip this one i would skip it i have

[02:07:26] podcasting about it gave me a lot more appreciation i think the themes are really interesting i would

[02:07:35] watch it again but probably while i was also doing something else like it's not an episode i would stop

[02:07:42] and like zero in on it's an episode that i would have on while i was like doing the dishes or cooking

[02:07:47] or whatever um so does it still slay it's sort of slough it's not a whole slay it's like a slough

[02:07:56] i like it it's a partial slay i like this is not our first one that's i think it is our first one i'm gonna

[02:08:04] have to i'm gonna have to keep a tally that's a good idea keep that list time to go over to the bronze

[02:08:12] and socialize even though the socializing thing is brutal and uh hear what some of our

[02:08:21] listeners have to say bronze things things of bronze we missed a piece of feedback uh two episodes ago

[02:08:29] when we did the first episode of angel from our good buddy coffee and vodka so cara want to read that one

[02:08:39] sure so for angel 101 he says greetings slayers this was pure series introduction 101 background right

[02:08:47] out of the gate team building establishing motivation and introduction of a couple major

[02:08:52] friends and foes all wrapped with a signature ending and mission statement i'm game it's been long

[02:08:59] enough for me to have forgotten almost everything about the show including seeing an actor i'd mistaken

[02:09:04] for rob schneider playing the manager that's kind of fantastic turns out it's a guy named sam pancake

[02:09:11] which sounds fake until you look at his imdb and see he was in the tv movie waffle hut in 2021

[02:09:19] so i love it yeah

[02:09:23] he said so it's gotta be legit that is pretty fantastic also some early christian cane giving

[02:09:29] the show some leverage i see what you did there he said i'll see myself out that's fantastic i love

[02:09:36] leverage angel's failure to protect tina was a good move on whedon's part defenstrating heroic

[02:09:43] expectation from episode one unless you consider it fridging then it was a faulty step into an overused

[02:09:50] trope i like that point either way he got to kill someone making for a happy choice

[02:09:59] nice to see you got to kill a woman and doyle again well and also that vampire that he threw

[02:10:05] out a window which was awesome yeah that was a great visual uh he said nice to see cordelia and

[02:10:13] doyle again and looking forward to future casting additions well like winifred and spike but most

[02:10:20] especially darla cannot wait finally the most terrifying moment of the episode was angel initiating a

[02:10:27] conversation with tina i felt so awkward

[02:10:37] he said he gives it out of 3.5 damned drained damsels blatantly blarney stereotypes and flightless

[02:10:47] flaming vamps out of five peace and take care coffee and vodka

[02:10:52] oh i love that i love i love your feedback coffee and vodka uh angel 102 greetings fellow

[02:10:58] connection craving slayers wow this was a difficult watch a fine episode but a difficult watch 42 minutes of

[02:11:07] speed dating over drinks and later getting demon drilled for the crime of being lonely horny or both

[02:11:16] happy new year still it was well paced with entertaining characters and that special comfort that can only come from a show

[02:11:26] with og websites and before cell phones i forget was this all for kate or does she make another appearance

[02:11:35] 3.5 boring conversationalist

[02:11:39] smashed mashers and rorschach angels out of five

[02:11:45] peace and take care coffee and vodka

[02:11:49] another excellent feedback yeah yeah there's more kate there's gonna be a lot

[02:11:55] wait yeah there's a bit more kate

[02:11:57] but there's gonna be more kate

[02:12:00] we have a voicemail from steve that is for episode one of angel that we missed uh last time so here we go

[02:12:08] hello still slaying this is steve and this is going to be for uh angel uh season one episode one city of

[02:12:15] i just got finished actually watching uh buffy season four episode one i didn't like steve it but

[02:12:20] i may send some thoughts in before i watched uh season four episode two of that one but uh here we go with angel

[02:12:26] season one episode one not uh filmed in widescreen or uh whatever that uh buffy season four was filmed in but i do love the

[02:12:34] voiceover and the noir aspect of it oh angel faking drunk and now the retractable steaks up the sleeve

[02:12:40] yeah and now the credits so much in the credits and i i don't know if they're doing spoilers or not for the future so uh once i hear your first

[02:12:48] episode about angel i'll know but uh he does he comes into the hotel and goes into the basement and

[02:12:54] uh we get our first look at his base of operations of course doyle calls it a bat cave oh the powers that be

[02:13:00] what okay i never asked this question before because i don't know what it is what is the slang billy d

[02:13:06] mean for a drink i don't know of course setting up this series for these visions that are going to send

[02:13:12] angel on his individual episode quest angel being awkward around women is just hilarious you don't

[02:13:18] very many girls do you whoa put out the pepper spray and uh quite an accusation but angel knows nothing

[02:13:26] what's what's going on glamorous hollywood party huh oh and we see cordelia in hollywood are you still

[02:13:34] oh yeah there's pretty much not a cure for that oh bad guys jumping angel and this girl and what's

[02:13:40] gonna happen oh the jump into the convertible car it's the wrong car

[02:13:46] and of course we see the truth of cordelia's life in malibu not that glamorous probably not even

[02:13:52] malibu actually i'll look at angel bringing this girl back to his place trying to connect being all

[02:13:56] gentlemanly he snoops in her bag and then he goes to the library to do some research oh the sunlight

[02:14:01] and now she sees that he's a vampire that's not good when there's russell in her apartment and she's

[02:14:06] got her gun out oh russell's a vampire and oh he's biting her neck oh and angel's too late to save her

[02:14:13] okay angel gets in because she's dead already but how did russell get in i guess maybe he'd been there

[02:14:17] before he just admitted to this lawyer that he killed this girl but he's a he's a fixing lawyer so

[02:14:24] yeah wolfram and heart yeah this is this is gonna come back oh and he's keying in on cordelia

[02:14:29] chris and carter looking hot in this yoga pose we find out that angel's been involved in 14 wars

[02:14:35] not including vietnam because it was never declared cordelia can spot a vampire oh russell the

[02:14:42] lights went out just a really bad makeup job on russell though and of course angel can't finish

[02:14:48] the job because he's got to save cordelia doyle pretty ineffective there with the car the light

[02:14:53] of day not healthy for angel not healthy for russell either of course no body no crime oh and we end

[02:15:00] on the infamous phone call to sunny dale from angel to buffy hello begins the series see ya

[02:15:08] thanks steve it's so fun to re-experience that episode through a live steve i know i get such a

[02:15:15] kick out of it and hopefully hopefully you listen to our coverage of that episode steve because we

[02:15:21] talk about what that billy d yes you answer all of those questions i believe as for spoilers we do

[02:15:30] them in a separate section at the end called the watchers diaries if you want to send in spoilery

[02:15:35] feedback just label it when you send it in and we'll play it during the spoilery section

[02:15:41] oh show and with that that brings us to the end of the main section of the podcast the non-spoiler part

[02:15:49] stay tuned for the watchers diaries if you want to hear our conversation about spoilery stuff stuff

[02:15:57] and things and if you'd like to join the conversation you can find all of our contact information at

[02:16:04] podcastica.com and in the show notes for each episode also at podcastica.com you'll find links

[02:16:10] to our social media pages and all of our other shows so many shows so many great podcasts i am obsessed at

[02:16:18] the moment with squid game cast because i loved squid game i'm also i also just listened to the run for

[02:16:28] your lives episode about the substance one of you mentioned that last time such a good episode i

[02:16:34] really enjoyed their analysis of that movie that movie is intense it's beautifully constructed it's

[02:16:43] disgusting it's deep i recommend it to everybody but brace yourself because it's gross it's really

[02:16:50] gross yeah yeah and don't watch it with like family yeah you might be sibling yeah you might not want to

[02:16:58] watch it with like your parents definitely not your kids yeah no definitely it's radar for a reason

[02:17:05] don't be like my parents and show all the radar movies when your kids are in the single digits

[02:17:11] uh for me i i really appreciated the yellow jackets trailer breakdown for season three penny you did it with

[02:17:19] jaffney and wendy yep i believe yeah yeah i thought you guys did like such a great job and i'm lukewarm

[02:17:27] with the show but i love the podcast so um like i mean i think it's just it's not really my era like

[02:17:36] everyone really loves and i'm just not a part of that era but um i really it's really well done show

[02:17:42] um so it's not like hard to watch but the podcast i absolutely love so i'm super excited for you guys to

[02:17:49] come back for season two next month oh sorry season three next month if you like what we do please give

[02:17:57] us a five-star rating a review or a like follow and subscribe i will say i was looking at our reviews

[02:18:05] and our ratings and we got a couple of one-star reviews that are for a different podcast

[02:18:14] but the reviews also say very positive things so i think there were just a couple of people that

[02:18:20] don't didn't quite do it right they're still there you can look at them but if you are enjoying what

[02:18:27] we're doing please go and balance that out a little bit we would definitely appreciate it

[02:18:33] if y'all are the ones who did it you can also go back and fix it if you so wish this is true

[02:18:39] but i don't think they listen to us since they reference a different part anyway um we always

[02:18:47] appreciate positive feedback if you feel so inclined and be sure to tune in next time when we'll be

[02:18:53] covering buffy season four episode three the harsh light of day thanks everyone and go to hell been

[02:19:02] there done that that's the end of the non-spoiler section and if you want to avoid

[02:19:08] the spoilers you should stop listening now three two one that's enough time for you to stop listening

[02:19:17] it's too bad we can't sneak a look at the watcher diaries i'm sure it's full of fun facts to know and

[02:19:22] tell yeah that's too bad that stuff is private also giles keeps them in his office in his personal files

[02:19:32] most importantly it would be wrong i want to start by saying that this demon is basically the gritty

[02:19:40] angel film noir version of parker yes that was okay that is what i was gonna say casual

[02:19:50] sad dancing people i was like this cannot be a coincidence that this was airing like right after

[02:19:57] buffy meets parker and in the next week he's gonna basically do the same thing he's gonna sleep with her

[02:20:04] and throw her away yeah like and i do like the the imagery of ripping someone's heart out

[02:20:14] like because it's so applicable but yeah i i love that you thought that i was just like parker and

[02:20:20] telling himself that he's looking for the right one and when he finds the right one he'll stop using

[02:20:25] people and he just keeps moving on with this like you know detritus of romance leaving a trail of

[02:20:32] destruction behind wow that is a very at like beautiful way of calling him toenails toenail

[02:20:43] sorry you're like it's like a beautiful poet away of like the detritus

[02:20:48] it's one of my favorite words i love the word detritus

[02:20:53] piece of toenail i want to talk a little bit about the kate hate i often find that fandoms

[02:21:02] dislike female characters who are yeah strong and a little bristly to a level that i think is

[02:21:12] disproportionate with their bristliness like uh the one that really comes to mind is in breaking bad

[02:21:19] um skylar she got so much hate from yeah that one i didn't understand and really her biggest sin

[02:21:29] was not really being 100 cool with her husband being a drug dealer like yes oh my god i don't really i

[02:21:38] never really understood the hate like when he was acting all suspicious and weird she was like you're

[02:21:44] suspicious and weird and then the fans were all like she's mean she's a horrible wife like people

[02:21:50] were mean to the actor too which is just unforgivable to me when there's a character you

[02:21:56] don't like fine you don't like the character that's fine but that was like actor is doing a job

[02:22:01] and if you dislike the character they're probably doing it well you know like yeah there are so many

[02:22:08] actors who do amazing villains who are so you know from all everything i've ever heard are lovely people

[02:22:14] in real life right but like king joffrey everyone hated that guy but everyone who worked with them

[02:22:21] said he's so nice they're all like he was funny on set he was always making jokes he made up raps

[02:22:26] about people like that sounds like a wonderful co-worker yeah yeah that's who i was thinking of

[02:22:33] they were so mean to this child yeah like i think you're definitely right penny like there's there is

[02:22:40] this judgment on female characters that is just not like normal it does it does it's not equitable and

[02:22:48] there's definitely this i for for me i i know like i have an equal opportunity not liking the one

[02:22:56] dimensional characters but like like for me like because like the actress who plays her elizabeth

[02:23:01] rom yeah she's good she's phenomenal i loved her in law and order and so like i like her and i'm pretty

[02:23:08] sure it was the writing i think for me with this character and we'll see maybe i'll change with it

[02:23:13] is um i think there's there's a stereotype of like crazy mad pixie girl or something where

[02:23:20] i i have a hard time a lot when men write female characters yeah and and but i've never blamed the

[02:23:29] actress like i've never i know it's not or or the actor like i never hated the actor who played joffrey

[02:23:34] i actually weird thing i actually like loved that i hated that character because i'm famous for like

[02:23:41] if someone makes me feel something and they're despicable i actually want really good writing and

[02:23:46] acting like you love to hate is such a fun dynamic in tv shows as long as you can be a grown-up and

[02:23:56] differentiate between the actor and the character it just yeah i think that kate and i feel like like

[02:24:03] lila yeah i mean it's like like for me like lila's a great example on this show like she's

[02:24:11] charismatic from the beginning and she is she is the quintessential femme fatale i yeah like she's so

[02:24:20] cool and she's glamorous and smart and evil and has great hair i love her strong strong and snarky and

[02:24:30] like i like i wonder a lot of like you know was that actress able to put more into her character like

[02:24:37] because you never know like you hear about stuff behind the scenes and stuff yeah so but yeah it's

[02:24:41] i i noticed for me at least i'll definitely call out that it's not the character traits it's more of

[02:24:49] i can tell when a female character has been written by a man yeah and from a man's point of view and a

[02:24:54] man's lens and and how they think a tough yeah yeah and like it's kind of like supernatural had this

[02:25:02] problem with women too and like they and and and they say they're like that i know

[02:25:09] and it's like definitely comes out more with her in trouble from a demon like that the boys have to

[02:25:15] save it's the one thing about supernatural i don't love yeah and and honestly like these were great

[02:25:20] characters in the show best one and they had great moments they didn't do a great job with them except

[02:25:26] for the character of like meg who didn't have a romantic relationship with any of the boys whenever

[02:25:30] the boys had to have a romantic relationship with a female character or the potential

[02:25:34] i didn't like it i liked it when they were independent and they actually were like there

[02:25:39] was a whole other spin-off like sisters winchester or something and those characters were phenomenal

[02:25:45] they weren't involved romantically with the boys yeah yeah yeah although she went on to veronica

[02:25:54] mars and i loved her on veronica mars yeah and she got to do a lot more yeah and like

[02:26:00] i will never forgive them for killing off joe either like that

[02:26:09] yeah that's true she was great on that i think my issue with kate is just the fact that

[02:26:19] the storylines that involve her are not my favorite and i like where the show goes ultimately so much

[02:26:27] more so i feel i'm trying to stop myself because i feel a little impatient when it comes to her

[02:26:33] storyline and i think it'll help to podcast on it because you know take it one episode at a time and

[02:26:41] i won't be sitting there like half paying attention and rushing through a rewatch i think i liked the

[02:26:47] potential of kate more than the execution but i do think they explore some interesting things coming up

[02:26:54] with her even though i don't think they do it perfectly like her relationship with her father

[02:26:59] her relationship with other cops on the force there are points that i think are very worthwhile

[02:27:06] to talk about with her but i just wish like all of those issues are really interesting and there were

[02:27:13] there are a couple of episodes where she really gets some meaty stuff to do but yeah not enough i think

[02:27:20] eventually when she gets written off the show it's it's for the best because they sort of messed up

[02:27:25] her character early on and it wasn't going where they wanted it to go and then she got offered as

[02:27:31] i mean she left to go do svu and it was better so i'm happy yeah like the like she did the og and

[02:27:36] she was on the lord shoot yeah she was oh right she was on the regular and i remember being like

[02:27:40] oh i remember her from angel and i really liked her again another strong kind of like saying how it is and

[02:27:46] i really she could do more on that show like i don't know like the way and i definitely don't

[02:27:50] blame the actress she she's amazing like whenever you watch a show like i usually am going to blame

[02:27:55] the writers yeah or the directors or the studios and it's like there's other things like the talent

[02:28:01] is just there but yeah like i just i remember her characters this were in the spoiler section of the

[02:28:06] show i always remember her character one of her standout things because again kind of what you're

[02:28:11] talking about cara too of like she od'd on pills drunk dialed or pill dialed angel and was like i

[02:28:18] want to say like yeah i believed in you and then like he comes in and gives her a shower and like it

[02:28:25] was i just all of this was so just like and he just left dean he just left his ex and daughter to

[02:28:36] murder a bunch of lawyers in the basement and like and it was just such a stupid all all of it

[02:28:43] was stupid like i get that she would be upset that she was fired from her job don't don't get me wrong

[02:28:47] but everything about the execution of that and again not elizabeth ron's problem she did a yes she

[02:28:54] could it makes sense that at some point or like it was awful investigations and the work that they're

[02:29:01] doing that they would interact with the police force in some way that is a natural thing to expect

[02:29:08] in the show and i just wish they handled it differently like i think there were a ton of

[02:29:14] interesting things that they could have explored with it but yeah even the thin blue line was better

[02:29:20] with gun and wesley like i mean when i think about character development that episode is wild

[02:29:26] yeah i love that episode yeah well one other spoiler that i wanted to bring up was cordy's

[02:29:32] line saying if that was my gift oh yeah and i was like i was like oh it's coming you're about to get

[02:29:39] you're about to get one of the worst stis lady i want to talk about is one of my favorite episodes

[02:29:45] of season one is when cordy gets a better apartment i yes i cannot wait it's soon too it's like when we

[02:29:53] meet dennis yeah it's either next or the one after that yeah yeah scary oh it's so great and that mom

[02:29:59] played by i love by um uh the actor is named um oh yeah she she was in the mindy project she's been

[02:30:09] in so much oh when it comes time i'll know her name yeah um she's the next episode we get to see

[02:30:15] oz yeah yes we do and spike yeah yeah i love how everyone's excited to see oz even angel and his

[02:30:24] subdued excitement it's it's like angel's afraid to even get a little excited he's like oh won't get

[02:30:29] too close to that curse yeah i was an angel interacting with how dry both of them are is

[02:30:36] always one of my favorite things and then so yeah i actually i just watched that episode

[02:30:41] and i didn't realize that the vampire that spike hires is also a pedophile yeah but i was like like

[02:30:47] it's a throwaway line and i was like oh creepy like i like it's it's a very good episode like yeah

[02:30:54] you're right penny like you know the show just gets better and better and better as as it goes on and i

[02:30:59] really really appreciated it i'm excited for our finale of the doyle thing it makes me cry every time

[02:31:07] i watch it it doesn't matter so sweet that yeah that that episode um especially like the thing at

[02:31:13] the end like it makes me cry every time that episode makes me cry the body and buffy every single time

[02:31:19] fred and fred you oh forget it like i might have to sit that one out because i when she says why can't

[02:31:27] i stay i'm feeling it now and then and then when wesley is dying and he's like lie to me oh my god

[02:31:37] like i still or the and in the buffy episode that always makes me cry is the is the one with with cassie

[02:31:46] and like she saves cassie but cassie dies anyways and like i recently did the rewatch i was like

[02:31:53] like like i like ugly cried because they're they're all like so quiet afterwards and they're like she

[02:31:59] had a like an illness and she knew and like and you tried to save her and buffy's saying i'm getting

[02:32:04] like teary i just thinking about it so i'm like that one is just like rough just like yep sorry guys um

[02:32:09] i find that actor very cool one who plays cassie oh she does she's yeah she's a great name like sky

[02:32:17] something yeah but like like like yeah so that those those are the ones that like i i i want to

[02:32:23] podcast and we'll have to see because i'll start crying in it yeah so many great episodes i'm so

[02:32:29] excited for darla i can't wait to get to darla so good i mean the the darla angel lindsey and then

[02:32:38] drusilla of it all yeah peak favorite of both of the shows for me like i just i i love them i just

[02:32:46] thought the dynamics were amazing so i just got chills yeah like most of the whirlwind is there

[02:32:54] and then their little weird connections with lindsey like their little boy toy like it is

[02:32:58] fantastic and some of the best i've ever seen of um lila she has some hilarious lines that just kill me

[02:33:06] and i'm like gonna wrap you in bubble wrap you're amazing i love lila i love her so hard

[02:33:12] like stephanie something yeah i don't remember her last name she's so great she's so pretty okay

[02:33:19] oh my god that's the end of the show i want to thank everyone for listening to us and until next time

[02:33:27] i am penny and i'm sam and i'm kara keep playing this socializing thing is brutal

[02:33:36] you

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