42: “The Harsh Light of Day” (BTVS S4E3)

[00:00:06] Buffy's looking at Parker, who, it turns out, has a reflection, so big plus there. Buffy's having lusty wrong feelings. No, I'm not. No, you're not. Oh, I so am. No, they're not wrong feelings, because there's no wall. You're free, you're both grown-ups. You are free, right? Hi. Hi.

[00:00:32] I just wanted to let you know I'm heading out, and it's not real safe around here, so if you, you know, walk back to your dorm. How silly of me not to plan ahead.

[00:01:05] Hello, everybody. Welcome to Still Slaying, a Buffy-verse podcast. I'm Penny. And I'm Sam. And I'm Kara. For this episode, we're going to be discussing Season 4, Episode 3 of Buffy, called The Harsh Light of Day, written by Jane Espenson and directed by James A. Condor. This episode originally aired on October 19th, 1999 to an audience of 3.4 million households.

[00:01:33] Some alternative titles in other languages for this episode were Irritating Daylight in Finnish, the Cruel Light of Day in Portuguese, and the Stone of Amara in German. Okay. Very straightforward. Very straightforward. Very straightforward. Irritating Daylight is really funny. That was pretty good. I am going to hang on to that. That's pretty good.

[00:02:01] It's the irritating daylight of the morning. Let's find out what was happening in the world on October 19th, 1999. Oh, goodness. I had a really fun time compiling the flashback notes for this one because I think it was, you know, just like peak preteen time for me.

[00:02:54] Mm-hmm. It's still dominating the fiction bestseller list. And Tiz by Frank McCourt is still dominating the nonfiction bestseller list. And I think both of them continue to do so for a couple of weeks or months after this. So we'll see what unseats those.

[00:03:14] And then in the U.S. box office, we have a new number one movie, and that is Fight Club, which I had no business seeing in sixth grade, but I did. Wow. And seeing it at 14 either. Yep. And number two is Double Jeopardy. And number three is The Story of Us. I don't know what The Story of Us is. I don't either. It sounds schmaltzy. It does.

[00:03:44] It, well, it reminded me of a Taylor Swift song, but it's a Bruce Willis, Michelle Pfeiffer movie. Oh, I kind of remember that. Like a romantic poster. Yeah. I kind of remember the poster. I think one of them is Sick or something. That sounds right. On this day in history, Cher releases the single Believe, which would go on to become the Billboard Song of the Year for 1999

[00:04:11] and would win a Grammy for Best Dance Recording for 2000. And it would live in all of our heads forever and ever. Yes, it does. Also, the Atlanta Braves beat the New York Mets to take the MLB National League Championship and move on to the World Series. The Braves won four games to the Mets' two games.

[00:04:37] During this week on October 20th, 1999, Indonesia elected a new president as the Electoral Assembly chose Muslim leader, Abdurah Wahid, 59, to lead the nation. Wahid was an advocate of tolerance. This action is the nation's first democratic transfer of power. Woohoo! Yay! Democracy!

[00:05:03] On October 21st, 1999, over 140 people are killed in the Chechnya bombing. A downtown market and maternity hospital were devastated by missiles reportedly fired by Russian forces. We've taken quite a turn in the news. Yeah, that's all over the place. That's dark. Than tragedy. Yep.

[00:05:27] On October 22nd, 1999, Maurice Papon, an official in the Vichy France government during World War II, is jailed for crimes against humanity. Got him! Yeah. Better late than never. Yeah. Imagine jailing people for crimes against humanity. Okay. Okay. On October 25th, 1999, the UN votes for East Timor Mission.

[00:05:56] The Security Council approved authority to govern former Indonesian territory until it is stable enough to become fully independent. On October 26th, 1999, Britain's House of Lords votes to end the right of hereditary peers to vote in Britain's upper chamber of parliament. That's huge. Interesting. That is huge.

[00:06:20] I personally think that inherited power is one of the biggest injustices in humanity. Same. Yep. The fact that Great Britain voted it out is wild. Yeah. That doesn't happen. Yeah. It's pretty unusual.

[00:06:41] And, you know, Great Britain shouldn't get too much credit because, of course, they're the biggest of all colonializing colonizers that's out there. Yeah. But it is something to see that they peacefully voted themselves out of being a monarchy and then voted themselves out of having inherited parliamentary chamber positions. It's remarkable.

[00:07:11] It doesn't negate years and years and years of destroying the rest of the planet. But it's okay. America picked up the torch. Yeah, we did. We sure did. We are undefeated champions of ruining other people's lives. It's just like trauma, right? Yeah. So it's intergenerational trauma. Right. That's our grandparent country. And then... Just picked right on up. Don't worry.

[00:07:40] It's not good. Imperialism is not good, but it is also apparently a very common part of human nature to be like. Oh, yeah. Apparently. I think they have cool stuff over there. Let's go steal it. Yes. And put it in our museum. Yeah. Yes. Scarcity mindsets. And let's pretend we're doing it because of God. Yes. Oh, of course. I mean, there has to be a higher reason. Don't get me started. Yeah. All the stuff.

[00:08:08] But speaking of trauma and having it follow people. Yeah.

[00:08:41] This episode. Oh, yeah. There's a lot of examples. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, they did a really good job of lining up these three different relationships for us to compare. And these three very, very different men. And very, very different women. And yet they all end up at the end sort of sad and alone and confused about what has happened to them. And it's so interesting. Lots of confusion.

[00:09:10] Yes. For sure. Which is also very apropos of dating during your early 20s. Yes. And, you know, forever. Yeah. Yeah, forever. Dating is still confusing in my 50s. And it was in my 30s. And in my 40s, I basically just had two long-term relationships. So there wasn't a lot of dating in my 40s. But those were confusing also. Yeah. So it's just always confusing.

[00:09:41] Speaking of which, a question. I wanted to get your guys' input on it. What guidance would you give people in their 20s going out dating? What hard-earned advice or wisdom would you give them? I would say be wary of making assumptions.

[00:10:02] Parker has a point in that at no point that we saw, did he say to Buffy, like, he didn't do what we call future faking, right? He wasn't like, oh, my mom's visiting today. Someday you'll meet her. Or, oh, wouldn't it be cool if we could go to Europe together? Or, oh, I really hope that we're still, you know, hanging out together next spring during, like, some big event. Yeah. None of that, right? He was very in the moment.

[00:10:30] And he talked a lot about his trauma and his philosophy on life, which was all about being in the moment and living for today. And Buffy took all of that to mean potential relationship, which I think most women would, right? They would be like, we're spending all of our time together. We really are enjoying our time together. We have a physical connection now. Like, you know, that was all good.

[00:10:59] He's being sweet to me. So she was blindsided by his whole, like, oh, I'm moving on right away, right away thing. But she also made a lot of assumptions based on not anything he said. And that will get you in the end. Like, don't get ahead of yourself when you're with somebody new.

[00:11:23] Until they say, I want this to be a relationship or I want to be your boyfriend or whatever those words are. And then ask them what they mean by that. Yeah. Don't assume anything. Because, and this is true of men about women, too. Like, just don't try really hard not to get ahead of where the relationship actually is. Mm-hmm. And it's so hard to do. It is really hard to do.

[00:11:48] Which is why you need friends to talk to you who can say to you, you're getting ahead of yourself here. And listen to your friends when they say that. And have your friends be honest. You know, get mad at your friends when they're honest. That's true. Yeah. Like, following up on that, I think that's so true, Penny. Like, you know, it reminds me of the Maya Angelou quote of when people show you who they are, believe them. The first time.

[00:12:15] And, yeah, it's a quote that rings so true. And one of the themes I've found so much in my group of friends who are women that I don't find in my guy friend group is that women make up excuses for the men that they're dating, which I find fascinating. I would, my number one advice for people dating every time is have a therapist.

[00:12:45] I kind of have like a hot take on the episode, so to speak, of I can't stand Parker. I'm never going to defend Parker. I think all of us are on board with that. Penny's absolutely right. He didn't future fake her. He, you know, he, he was a jerk. And I think we all detest him for what he did to our slayer. And the reaction afterwards needs to be, screw this guy.

[00:13:15] Like, who is it not what's wrong with me? Screw this guy. You are who is important. And I'm talking all genders here. You are who is important. I think it's very true for an 18-year-old, though. Yeah. To immediately go to, what's wrong with me? Why doesn't he want me? I think that's very realistic. And I think guys do it, too, when they get rejected by a woman for any reason.

[00:13:42] It's just, you know, the three of us are much more familiar with the girl side, obviously. A hundred percent. Yeah. And guys, like you said, Penny, a hundred percent guys go through this, too. And it's, I kind of like the hot take is I think everyone needs a Parker in their late teens, early 20s. And it's, I think it's unfortunate. And I think in this day and age, it was when I was going through my 20s, kind of learning that. Yeah.

[00:14:08] Of learning, like, people aren't always completely upfront with their intentions. And you kind of need to get your heart broken a little bit. And have it be safe, right? Like, I mean, last time Buffy had a sexual relationship with someone, he turned into a murderous monster. Which is the most heinous result. But, you know, yeah, people are going to break your heart. And I think that's kind of how you need light in the darkness.

[00:14:35] You need to know what it's like to not be able to trust people so that you don't fall headfirst into your own version of future faking with someone that you just met. And, you know, kind of have that painful lesson, as awful as it is, to hold on to going forward. And yes, absolutely a therapist. And have that one friend that will just tell you their two cents.

[00:14:57] Because, like, as Penny and Kara know, I'm that friend who's like, it's just my two cents. And this is, I see how these people are treating my friends, all genders, treating my friends. And I don't like it because I famously think no one's good enough for my friends. And, like, I'll be gentle. I'll be accepting. I can be around these people.

[00:15:25] And, you know, they're on, you know, they have to pass through some hoops for me, for me to know that you're good enough for this person that I care about. And I hold that kind of line. But I think a lot of people are afraid to lose relationships, like friendships and family relationships with being honest. And it's a hard thing to do. But, yeah, so many people, like, I'm on this Facebook group, are we dating the same guy?

[00:15:55] And I know they're kind of all over the country. The amount of women making excuses for the men that they're dating or wanting to date is kind of nauseating. As me, 40-year-old. 20-year-old me, absolutely. Like you said, Penny, I would be making up excuses. This is how we're socialized. 40-year-old me is like, oh, dear God. Like, no, no, no. They're telling you who they are. Like, what is happening?

[00:16:21] And when you realize this truth about life that, like, sometimes men act one way, but their intention is a different way. And they can hurt you. And so you just need to not get too attached until it's real and confirmed. And even then they can hurt you. Yeah. But when you finally learn that lesson, and I thought, I think I've learned it. I don't know. We'll see. Next time I get into a relationship.

[00:16:50] It is kind of liberating. It reminds me of that scene in Sex and the City when Miranda and Carrie are talking about some guy that Miranda went out with and why he hasn't called her. And Carrie's boyfriend at the time, the post-it note breakup guy. Yeah, I know who you're talking about. I can't remember his name either. Says the famous words, he's just not that into you. A hundred percent. And Carrie's immediate reaction is, don't say that to her. Like, that's so mean.

[00:17:18] And Miranda is like, oh. Yeah. Oh, that's so liberating. Like, oh, he's, I don't have to wonder why he hasn't called me. That's such a simple answer. And, like, I can just walk away from this person. And knowing that a guy is not that into you doesn't mean keep trying. It means walk away. But it's hard to do if you've gotten attached. And so that's why the advice of don't get attached.

[00:17:48] Which I admit is really hard to do. Yeah. Well, and I guess my advice would be learn who you are first and foremost. And just because something works for your friends doesn't necessarily mean it's going to work for you. For instance, I had friends that were great at having casual relationships.

[00:18:14] And I learned very quickly that that is not who I am. I get, I overthink too much. I have feelings involved way too quickly. And there's nothing wrong with that. It's just everybody's different. And I would say don't try to force something that's not there. Another big one is probably that, you know, love does not fix everything. No. And is also not necessarily an investment.

[00:18:42] Just because you spent months or years with somebody doesn't mean that you need to necessarily stick around if it's not working. You know, kind of know when to cut your losses and know when something's not working. Yeah. For sure. I like it. It's difficult. And that's why, you know, we have poetry and literature and movies and songs about heartbreak.

[00:19:11] Because it comes in so many forms and it happens to everybody. And I mean, I guess it doesn't happen to those people that like met the love of their life in eighth grade and they're married them at 19 and they're still together. Those people exist. They're weird. They're rare. They're exceptions to the rule. They are not the rule. They do exist and they drive the rest of us crazy because we're like, you never went through this thing? You know, like it's hard to understand.

[00:19:40] But, you know, lucky them. I think it's so interesting to see these different women, you know, Anya approaching relationships from this like never like hasn't been a human for thousands of years perspective where she's so direct. And she thinks that she's a thousand years old and she doesn't know the answers either. Right. She thinks if she has sex with Xander, she'll be over him.

[00:20:11] And clearly she's not. Right. And, you know, Harmony now has superpowers, but that doesn't stop her from letting Spike treat her like garbage. Abuse her. Yeah. I mean, he says he is so mean to her. I have some clips of it because it's just like here's one of the worst things that anyone has ever said to anyone. You love that tunnel more than me.

[00:20:41] Yep. I love syphilis more than you. I mean, it's hard not to identify a little bit with Spike in that moment because Harmony is annoying. But nobody deserves to be treated the way that she is being treated. Yeah. And she's aware of it. She says, I don't know why I let you treat me this way. And then she comes back to him. And yeah, like she's a glutton. Yeah.

[00:21:10] And it's it's because I have it like written down. And I'm glad you brought that up, Penny, because it's I have it written down because I haven't seen this episode in a while because I don't like seeing Parker. But Spike grabbing Harmony was really upsetting. And then she liked it. And then I was very confused. Yeah. And so like I and then, you know, understandably later, she didn't like it. And I was like, see, this is the toxicity.

[00:21:35] Like, you know, this can be a kink for people that they like. But the kink community is famous for its really rigid rules on consent. Yeah. So like and we're not seeing that, obviously, in Buffy. And we're not seeing that here of like, OK, sometimes she likes it and sometimes she doesn't. I don't like this because this isn't how if it's someone's kink, this isn't how this works. It's confusing.

[00:22:01] And I think that there's a little bit of leeway because they are vampires. They don't have souls. Yes. And so the the cruelty and the manipulation that's going on is like it's I think we're supposed to understand Spike and Harmony's quote unquote relationship as sort of the end of the spectrum.

[00:22:25] Like when you're really a jerk to the woman and she sticks around anyway. Like that's what that looks like. And it's horrible. And we're all supposed to think like, I don't care how sexy Spike is. That's horrible. Harmony should get out of that relationship. And then on the other end of the spectrum, we have Anya pursuing Xander and being like, where's our relationship going? And Xander's like, we went to prom like four months ago. He's like, what?

[00:22:54] We have a relationship? And she has way blown way out of proportion their one date. Date. Yeah. And and she has been apparently thinking about it for months and building up all these expectations in her head. She's like, so I can assume a regular Friday night date and prom is our anniversary. And he's like, what? What? And for once, I don't think Xander is at all wrong in any part of this.

[00:23:23] And then he's actually very kind to her. He's like, he's honest with her. Yeah. Absolutely. Which is a huge difference between Parker and even Spike. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:23:36] Like Parker is really the most demented of them because first of all, I don't know if his dad actually died, but if he did and he is continuing to use that as like a line and a ploy for sympathy and doing it in kind of a masterful way because he's like, you know, I'm not just saying this to get sympathy.

[00:24:03] But the whole living in the moment thing and it's okay to make mistakes like Willow clocks him so fast. Yeah. She's just like, no, Buffy. Like he was saying that. So you would sleep with him. That was manipulation. And of course, poor Buffy has internalized it because Parker does almost everything right on paper. He is complimenting her, but he's not over sexualizing her in those compliments.

[00:24:31] He's offering to walk her back to her dorm at night because it's not safe, even though he doesn't know that she could kill him in a second. She's like, I'll walk you home, sir. He even when like he goes in to kiss her, he's like, is this okay? Because we can stop if you know, if you want to. And even like Spike clocks it to that manipulation where he makes it think he makes you think it's your idea to seduce him. Yeah.

[00:25:01] When really he's been putting in the work to me. Oh, and then he does this whole. I'm afraid I'll be too nervous to ask you to go to the party with me. Oh, toenails. That guy. I can't. Toenail. Yeah. I was so angry watching this episode. And I think we talked about how like all of us have had a Parker in our life at some point. More than one.

[00:25:28] And looking at it with perspective now, you know, mine was about, I don't know, 12 years ago. I've grown a lot. I've learned a lot. I've experienced a lot more. And I think part of it is that feeling of being duped. Yeah. You know, where you feel stupid. You feel like you should have noticed that, you know, something was off when really it's not. He's just really good at it.

[00:25:57] And we get to see towards the end of the episode when he's talking to Katie Loomis that he uses the same line on everyone. And I. So gross. In my head, the headcanon I have about Parker is that his father died and he got a ton of sympathy from people around him. And probably more than one woman ended up sleeping with him when he was legitimately sad and grieving. And he was like, huh.

[00:26:27] Interesting. Look at that. Let me see if I can use that on purpose. Yes. And then it just became his pattern. And it's like, I mean, it's a good one. Was his mom really visiting? It's a good one. You know, like that's another great way to get Buffy out of his room in the morning without being too harsh. Because it's like, oh, he's spending time with his mom. Like his dad's gone and now he wants to be there for his mom.

[00:26:56] Like brilliant, but disgusting. Absolutely. That would 100%, honestly, depending on where you are at personally, Buffy is super vulnerable. She's just ended this long relationship, her first intimate relationship.

[00:27:16] And to her, people that have shown that kind of interest in her want to date her or be with her for eternity in some cases. But now she's facing Parker, who is showing all this interest and not being honest about it. Yeah. And it's a huge wake up call that I think a lot of people kind of have to experience to really get.

[00:27:43] And some people, it takes several experiences before it hits home. Because you're a human being. And when somebody says to you, like, my dad died and it was really sad. And I, you know, it's made me, it's changed me in some ways. And then they're also, like, cute and giving you puppy dog eyes. Like, how do you not fall for that? Yeah. And spending time with her. Yeah.

[00:28:13] Willow makes the comment at the beginning of the episode, like, you've spent all week with Parker. Yes. And it's hard as a decent person to imagine somebody behaving in that way just to sleep with you and move on. Yeah. It's manipulation part of the game. The thing that is underneath that, which I sort of hesitate to bring up because I don't want people to think this when this happens with a Parker. Is that there is a huge block for intimacy.

[00:28:44] And he doesn't want someone to get close to him. This is all a performance because he wants to have sex. Which, again, is, like, fine. Have a hookup. If he doesn't, if he wants to have these one night stands because he prefers that to, like, the deeper intimacy of a relationship. That is totally fine. Not everyone wants the latter. But he's not honest about that.

[00:29:07] And I'm hesitant in saying that because just like we were talking earlier before we started podcasting, it's a reason, not an excuse. Yeah. And no woman is going to be able to change him. Not at all. This is where he's. Well, that's another thing that we should throw out for advice. Yeah. He's not a light bulb. You can't change him. You can't change him. You can't fix him. So I want to talk about that because Parker is, like, 19 or 20.

[00:29:35] And he is also going through a great big time of change, right? College years are a time where people experiment with different personalities. They go through big phases. They try different things. If he did indeed lose his father, that did change him. And it is making him view the world in a different way. He just happens to be being a jerk about it. I think it is possible for a Parker to grow out of this thing he's doing and become a decent person.

[00:30:03] But there's no woman that can make him do that. He has to do it. And it might take several years. And when a man does change, when any person does change, usually the person they are with before the change and during the change is not the right person for them after the change. So putting your time and effort into changing someone, they're probably going to dump you once they're changed anyway because they're going to associate you with the old self.

[00:30:33] So don't even try unless you are a professional therapist and you're doing it for pay. Don't try to change a person. Don't have sex with them if you're their therapist. That's also advice. You cannot do therapy to your exes either. People have potential, obviously. If it's a 19 or 20-year-old, whether it's a man or a woman, there's a lot of growth that can happen, a lot of growing up that takes place.

[00:31:01] So Parker is not necessarily a lost cause. But don't waste your time trying to – don't focus on potential. No. Gosh, no. No. No. That got me divorced, essentially, is because I was so focused on who I knew my ex-husband could be, who I knew. And when you care about someone, it's obviously even harder to step away from that. Right.

[00:31:31] And the more time you put in, the more years you spend trying to help someone become their better self, you start to have this fallacy of like, well, I've already invested so much time. I don't want to lose that investment. Right? Sunk cost. But it's a fallacy, sunk cost fallacy, because that time – you're not going to get a return on that investment. Just get out.

[00:31:54] Because, like I said also, once he changes, he's going to want to move on anyway because he's going to be all about his new life and he doesn't want his old life following him around. Yeah. So, it's so harsh. But like, being ready to like move on from men is probably the best thing women can do. Like, it's really hard to avoid meeting men that are going to treat you badly or women, I guess, that are going to treat you badly. Yeah, of course. But the only thing you can do is control yourself.

[00:32:23] So, manage your expectations, pay attention to what they actually say and not what you want it to mean, and be ready to leave as soon as it gets bad because it's not going to get better once it gets bad. Exactly. Dump him or dump her is like my go-to. It's like, it's not worth it.

[00:32:42] Yeah, like just when I've helped patients in these sorts of dynamics and it's stressful for me as a therapist because we don't ever want to suggest people making large life transitions or moves. It's, you know, we don't have to live with the consequences and we don't want to be credited with the successes. Like, you know, we just sort of bring in, I always say like as a therapist, I'm advocating for that person in front of me only. I don't have their other responsibilities.

[00:33:10] So, like, that's why I can be harshened in a session. Like, you're sacrificing your comfort and well-being for someone else. And I'm going to call that out because you are who is important. Oxygen mask on you first. But it's really about, see, Parker's a tricky case. You know, obviously he's fictional. He doesn't have a lot of red flags. There's some, like hindsight, like Willow picks up and you guys pointed out.

[00:33:35] What I find time and time again is I'm helping people to look back at the beginning of their relationship when they were just getting to know each other. That is the honeymoon period. That first six months especially, we're not even that person. None of us are. It's like a prolonged job interview. If you're getting red flags during the honeymoon phase, dump them. That is the best this person's behavior is ever going to be. Stop making excuses.

[00:34:04] You can bring it up and have a conversation. But if they keep doing it, cut ties and let them go. Because every single person has been able to look back and be like, oh, yeah, that was a red flag. Stop ignoring the red flags. Stop tolerating the red flags, which happens when we've gone through harkers and other types of trauma. We tolerate it when our gut instinct is going to tell us more. But, yeah, he can change if he wants to.

[00:34:32] There's a joke that at least the therapists I work with like, which is how many therapists does it take to change a light bulb? Just one, but the light bulb has to want to change. Yeah. Yeah. That's cute. Well, and that's why I say like getting to know yourself is so important. And that's a, you know, that's a lifelong process. Oh, it is. Yeah.

[00:34:57] But being okay and being comfortable on your own is something that was really instilled in me, especially by my dad growing up. Like, no man, no person is worth your piece. And they're not competing with other, you know, suitors, other potential partners.

[00:35:21] They're competing with the solace that you have on your own and your independence. And the older I get, the more that I'm like, you know what? Hell yeah. Like, I love being by myself. I need someone that adds to my life. If I'm going to let you in and disrupt my piece and my time by myself, then it has to be worth it.

[00:35:47] And when you look at dating through that lens, it changes everything. Absolutely. I kind of joke about it, but I'm like, I think because, you know, some of the like women around, like in the dating circles will be like, let's go to the boat show or something and see if there's any single people there. And I'm like, I think I just should park myself outside of a therapist office.

[00:36:11] And then I am not a rehabilitation vehicle for people who haven't done their therapy anymore. So it's like, like, this is, this is show me your therapy receipts. That's what I want. Like you've been, yeah, you show me you've been working on yourself and that you'll have an expert to go and talk to when we have an argument. Cause like you need to do your insight work and I do mine. We'll be in the middle.

[00:36:40] Also, I don't want to meet someone whose life is about boat shows. So meeting someone at a boat show is like not going to be the best fit for me. It's like, I've had the advice so often go to a sports bar. I'm like, but I don't like those kinds of guys. I don't like sports. That's not my thing. If I'm going to randomly meet someone who's right for me, it's going to be at an art museum or like a, you know, a festival of something.

[00:37:09] It's going to be, I was about to say a baseball game, but that's just me. See, that would be a good guy for you, but not for me. For you, Kara. And it's not like I don't like guys who like sports, but like, I just don't think a sports bar is where I'm going to meet my soulmate. Right. No, yeah, no, it's just not going to happen. But that sort of reminds me, so like as we're talking about harmony and I had like an idea when I was watching the episode.

[00:37:37] Mercedes McNabb was born in March of 1980. Yes. I looked that up too. So this was probably filmed in the summer of 1999. So she was barely 18 in those scenes. And I have this idea. And how old was James Marsters? Yeah, he was so uncomfortable doing it. And I get why. She was barely 18. He was double her age. Yeah. And then you add his vampire age.

[00:38:08] He's like, it's creepy. It's always creepy. On all levels. Oh gosh, so much. And James Marsters seems like such a good human. Like he's expressed a lot of discomfort about some of the things that they've had Spike do. And we'll talk about that in the future for sure. But it's just, it's so icky. It's really icky. And I think we're supposed to find it icky. Yes. And I think that Mercedes McNabb is doing an absolutely amazing job.

[00:38:37] She is so underrated as an actor because Harmony is annoying. I think a lot of people miss the fact that Mercedes McNabb is just crushing it as Harmony. She's so good. Her comedic timing is unparalleled. Yeah. Yeah. She's so funny. She's so funny. And the contrast between her like pretty teenage girl face and her vampire face is delightful. I know. And I love how she dresses.

[00:39:07] I love the way the character dresses and like lots of shimmery pink sparkly clothes. The outfit that she is in, I wrote this in all caps, when they show up at that frat party and she's got her hair like French braided off to one side with, you know, the black top and the pink skirt. Oh, and the sleeves. I, yes, obsessed. She looks spectacular.

[00:39:34] And the way that they did her makeup too, like she just looks so fierce. But then you see Spike kind of shutting her down. Yeah. So much. I really wish that we got to hear the story of how they met. I would love to know. I do too. It's, um, Buffy's line, would you lose a bet? Is so funny. Right? I love how she's like, hey! Yeah. And, um, and it's even funnier after.

[00:40:04] Harmony's a vampire? She must be dying without a reflection. She just made me so mad. My boyfriend's gonna beat you up? My boyfriend? Well, I mean, if you believe her. She always lied about stuff like that. Oh, he goes to another school. You wouldn't know him. Well, Devon dated her for a while, but she was too flaky for him, which stopped Marvel at the concept. Guy dating Harmony dead. Must be like the most tolerant guy in the world. That's so funny.

[00:40:33] And it's Spike. The reveal that it's Spike is so great. Because it's the double, it's the double meaning of like, oh, that's not the most tolerant guy in the world. Two, where's Drusilla? I guess they're not still together. Three, Spike is back. Like, it was, I remember seeing this episode live and being like, Spike is back! Because they didn't spoil it in advance. Or at least I didn't know he was coming back. They didn't. No. They were very careful not to spoil it.

[00:41:02] And it was such a great reveal. Well, just look at the juxtaposition of how Spike kind of revered Drusilla and put her up on a pedestal. And how he like, he seems ready to kill Harmony when she calls Drusilla Dorcas. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, again, a choice he's making. He's making so many choices. He makes her say Drusilla's name while they're like about to have sex.

[00:41:30] It is, it is so demeaning for Harmony that he's still hung up on his ex. Yes. And it couldn't be more clear that she is a convenience only for him. Yes. And that he is just using her for sex and finds her annoying. He's mean as anything to her. And she lets him be. And it's disturbing. And you have to keep reminding yourself, they're vampires, they don't have souls.

[00:42:00] They're vampires, they don't have souls. Because you want to hate both of them so much. The part where, like towards the end when the Scoobies are in the cave, I guess. And you first see her and she's in vamp face. And you're like, oh, she's going to get for a fight. And then her face softens. And she's like, you know, I was like, oh my gosh, this actress is amazing. Like, I went from like, oh, vampire to, oh, like, you know, you feel sorry for her.

[00:42:26] So again, just Mercedes McNabb, like you were saying, is such an amazing actress. But Kara, when you and Penny were talking about her outfit, it made me laugh when the actress was trying, when they were trying to run away from Buffy. And Harmony tries to jump over the couch in that long, tight skirt. She has to sort of pivot. Yeah. I was like, not even vamps could move in those skirts. I remember those skirts being in fashion.

[00:42:56] And Willow was also wearing a long, straight skirt. And Giles and Xander had to lift her into the crypt. Like she couldn't. I'm like, that is the worst demon hunting outfit ever. You're so immobile in those skirts. Those long, like, silk or satin skirts are kind of back right now. I know. They're so hard to wear. I don't like the legs being forced to be together. Yeah. You might as well be a mermaid, like just with one leg. Yeah.

[00:43:24] It's not a look that I ever, I tried on some skirts like that back in the day. And I was like, I feel claustrophobic in this. And so it's not a style I ever adopted. And it didn't last that long at the end of the 90s. Because I think a lot of people were like, oh, I can't even barely walk in this. Yeah. Like, and you add high heels to the mix and forget about it. Oh, gosh. Yeah. Then you could not move at all. I just, I keep going back to thinking about how Spike treats harmony.

[00:43:55] And I think seeing this when I was much younger, you know, like 12, it was more, you know, I focused more on the comedic aspects of their relationship and how, you know, Spike was just evil because he's a vampire. And that was that. But looking at it now, like how abusive he actually is towards her, the fact that he tries to kill her and he doesn't know she's got the gem of Ahara on.

[00:44:23] And like, that is pretty intense. Yep. And that is like, for me, it was a haunting aspect of toxic relationships that are abusive like that. Yeah.

[00:45:04] It does escalate. I mean, in this case, he's a literal vampire. But yeah, there are emotional vampires out there among us. And you got to know if you get into a relationship with one of them, eventually they're going to stake you through the heart. And it's going to be ugly.

[00:45:24] I will say, I do not think it is a coincidence that the healthiest relationship out of the three is the one where honesty is at the forefront, where you have poor Ahria trying to figure out how to be human and deal with these hormones. But Xander is also straightforward with her. Yeah. You know, I don't really blame him for sleeping with her because one, I mean, he's a male.

[00:45:52] She's fully consenting. Yeah. They both wanted it. So what? Yeah. Like, go get it. I love that he, like, I know it was a gag for the show, but how he had already put the straw in her little like cran apple juice and turns around. Yes. Oh my God. It was so funny. It was so well done. And there was a great edit moment where it goes from Spike and Harmony, like, going back and forth about they're about to have sex.

[00:46:21] And then it cuts to Anya saying, and then it's concluded with both parties, you know, satisfied. And it's such a funny cut. It's such a good cut that you sort of miss the fact that Anya is propositioning Xander. And he is standing there in complete shock about it. And then he has this amazing line here. I got it. What you're talking about.

[00:46:48] Well, and I'm actually turning into a woman as I say this. Okay. But it's about expressing something and accepting consequences. Oh, I have condoms. Some are black. That's, that's very considerate. I like you. You're funny and you're nicely shaped. And frankly, it's ludicrous to have these interlocking bodies and not interlock. Please remove your clothing now.

[00:47:21] And the amazing thing, still more romantic than Faith. No. That interaction was very cute. Yeah. Yeah. And I liked it. Like, it's like so close, Xander. You're so close to having a normal conversation. I know. A woman thing. Yeah. Jesus Christ. Except for that part. The rest of that conversation is actually really cute.

[00:47:47] The interlocking bodies is such a funny way to put it. And then. You're nicely shaped. Still more romantic than Faith. It is. Because Faith, like, I mean, I don't think that he was unconsenting in that scenario. Yeah, no. But, you know. There was, there was no real moment of decision making for Xander. Like, Faith is like, are you up for it? And he says yes. And then it's like, bam, she's completely in control. Yeah.

[00:48:16] And he's just along for the ride. And then she throws him out of her motel room. And he's like, he doesn't even have his pants back on. And he's like, oh, I just had sex. And there's no intimacy. Yeah. And the consequences of that type of casual sex hit him. After. He, you know, he, and I think a lot of, especially, you know, I don't want to speak for teenage boys. But I'm assuming that at that age, like, an attractive girl comes on to you and wants to have sex with you.

[00:48:45] Like, a lot of guys would be like, oh, this is what I've been, you know, thinking about. This is what I've been wanting. And it's a reality check for Xander. Where he's just like, oh, it does not feel good to be used. No, not at all. It made an object. And then this moment with Anya. He's being used again in a way. But he has so much more agency.

[00:49:14] Because she's not threatening violence. And she's not throwing him around. And she's not scary in the same way. And then I love that after they're done and they're putting their clothes back on. It's all awkward. And she's like, all right, I'm over you. And he says, okay, like a question mark. And she gets so mad at him. And I have so much sympathy for him in that moment. Because he's like, I'm just trying to give you what you asked for. Yeah.

[00:49:43] He looks so confused. We gotta say the things. Like, you gotta say it too. You know, no one's a mind reader. At least not these characters or most humans in real life. Also, I think a lot of people overestimate their ability to have meaningless casual sex. Yes. I think that. Men and women. Yeah.

[00:50:07] It's a natural part of our biology that sexual intimacy creates a connection. You feel it. A chemical bond. It's a chemistry thing. It's your hormones. It's the fluids in your body. It's the electrical signals your brain gets that tell you that you should bond to the person that you're having sex with. That is part of evolution. It's part of how, you know, people are safe.

[00:50:34] And I think a lot of people think that they can have sex without emotion and they try to do it. And then like Anya, they're like, oh, wait, that didn't make me. That didn't work. That didn't work at all. Now I'm more attached. And I think it's really hard to go into an experience with one expectation for yourself and then come out of it having been wrong about yourself. That's where Anya... Well, she has a lot of learning. Yeah.

[00:51:03] Well, I mean, she's... You know, we learn more about her. I'm pretty sure her marriage was arranged when she was a human. It was like a thousand years ago or something. Very different. I mean, she was probably sold for geese or something. Exactly. So that sort of reminds me of when Willow goes running up to Buffy and it's like, she wants to hear all about Buffy having sex with Parker. And I was like, God, I remember being that excited about sex involving men or dating men in general. Yeah.

[00:51:33] I'd be like, I know. Hey, how was the sex? How was it? No, it's just... I just have like, after all this experience with me, with my friends, I'm like, how was it? Was it actually satisfactory? Yeah. Because it sort of reminds me of that joke. And I think, unfortunately, we socialize men to be this way, too. Of men, heterosexual men tend to have higher numbers of sexual partners because no one's having repeat performances.

[00:52:00] And that is such a disservice to everyone who wants to engage in heterosexual sex. Because women will tell you, the more you have sex with a partner, the better both of you get at understanding each other's cues. And it actually gets better. Yeah. So it's one of those things where it's like, well, you just want your number. You don't want to actually have some of the best sex you've ever had. It's true.

[00:52:27] The first time with a new partner can be good, but it's rarely as good as it can be. Yeah. And it's always confused me. Like, the idea of a one-night stand, I'm always like, what about like a three-night stand? Yeah. Like, I'm not looking for long-term. Like, if I could have my version of casual sex, it would be more like flings and not one-night stands.

[00:52:57] Or a friend with benefits. Unfortunately, a lot of men interpret friends with benefits as free hooker and not the friend part. Yeah. The friendship part is kind of key. Like, you have to actually respect this person. You have intimacy through friendship, too. Yeah. It's just not have romantic expectations, but enjoy having sex with someone. And it is really rare and really hard for those to work.

[00:53:23] And I think a lot of people want that, but can't actually do it because the attachment happens. It really does. Yeah. And life is hard. It's nice to have someone that you can rely on. And stuff in your life will happen. And, you know, like, I was in a casual relationship with someone when my dad died. And I was a mess. Oh, yeah. And I needed support. And he was like, that's not what I'm here for.

[00:53:52] And I was like, you're right. That was never part of our deal. Like, I get it. And I was like, so I can't see you anymore because I'm going to want more from you. And he was like, what? No more sex? And I was like, I can't live in the middle right now. Like, my life is different than it was when we started this. So I'm sorry. You're a nice guy. Yeah. Goodbye. And that was the end of it. But it was really hard for me to make that call because I desperately wanted somebody to

[00:54:22] just hold me. You know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. That's a really big sign of strength, being able to actually know that about where you were at at that point. Honestly, I think I learned that from there's a future episode of Buffy where she admits to being needy. And the other person in that scene is like, I can handle you being needy. Go ahead. Oh, I know who you're talking about. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:54:51] And I think that. I have a totally different viewpoint on that character now by watching it as an adult. Yeah. So I'll be interested to see when we get there. But I think that that scene actually really helped me in that moment where I was like, oh, I recognize what's happening. I'm going through what Buffy went through. I'm needy right now. And this person is not the right person to project that need onto because he cannot do it. Yes. So speaking of like. Oh, go ahead. Go on. Mine's like a very tangential.

[00:55:21] Oh, well, mine is a bit. But like when I was watching the show, that sort of reminds me of the song that Parker and Buffy were dancing to. Lucky. I love that song. I love that song so much. And it was like in a way like Parker didn't gaslight Buffy, but Biff did. Like she's singing, we are the lucky ones. And just like, you know, after everything Buffy's been through and stuff. And I love that song. And also like, come on, Biff.

[00:55:51] I mean, she couldn't have known. But like, like that is, that is just, you know, sort of knowing of like, Buffy, you have a whole life ahead of you. And well, maybe. But like this whole experience behind you, that's not Parker, though. Yeah. Like, yes, you are lucky to have survived a drowning, to have survived high school graduation and everything. Not lucky to have found him necessarily. Like it's a weird. You've only known him for a week. That's the thing.

[00:56:19] Everything has been so life or death with her. Everything is such high stakes. I know. That you can't really fault her for going all in with Parker. Because that's how things have been. And it's just, I hate watching her beat herself up. Okay. But I have a whole tangent on that. Awesome. I can wait on that.

[00:56:47] We've already talked a bit about it. But yeah, like it is really hard seeing her beat herself up. And I just want to be like, Buffy, you are spectacular. Like you have like so much going for you. Like this guy is inconsequential. Yeah. I get it. It's just like, yeah, like I'm watching this and I get it. Like Penny, I think you made a good point of like, these are 18, 19, 20 year olds.

[00:57:16] And that's a great point of like, okay, I have to be back in there. And I just like put notes of like. Pre-functional cortexes. Yeah. Like here we go. They're not fully cooked. Ladies and gents, don't start with, did I do something wrong? Start with, what's happening to this person? Like saying like, what's going on? What's happening? Don't immediately assume you did something wrong. They're the one that's acting different. So say like, what's happening? What's going on? What's going on with you right now? You're acting different.

[00:57:44] The fact that she immediately goes into, I did something wrong. And she did that with Angel too, when he was Angelus. And as we know, just like last time. She was like, was I not good? Like, yeah. Like, like it's not like, it's not you. And that is very fair. Like, and don't get sad. Get angry. Be sad later. But like, like be angry. Like, what is this? He said he would call her and he didn't. Yeah. Be mad about that. What are you doing right now?

[00:58:13] Like, that's not on you. And she was vulnerable. I get it. Like, she was very vulnerable with him. It's this sexual intimacy. 100%. It's still new to her. Right? This is only the second time she's ever had sex. Yeah. Poor Buffy. Like, now you're ditching me and all this stuff. And it's like, be mad. He's, he's not being like, you know, talk like toxic necessarily. But like you said, he didn't return the phone call. He's ditching her. He's giving the same lines to a new person.

[00:58:43] Yeah. And it's like, what are you doing? What is this? The criticism goes to him. Yeah. Well, and think about how much her previous experience with Angel influenced her because it's not a coincidence that the similarities of waking up alone in bed the morning after in red sheets. Yeah. I know. Is that a thing with guys back then? Yes. Apparently.

[00:59:09] Every dude in the 90s and 2000s had either maroon or navy blue sheets on their bed. It was like, nothing girly in here at all. Like, I'm a man. Like the, the lack of color in men's homes is disturbing. It's like, everything is these like dusty maroon colors. Very upsetting to me. I did have one friend who had red satin sheets. And when I saw them in his bedroom, I made fun of him so hard.

[00:59:38] Those are sex sheets. And he was like, hey, don't knock it until I've taken you home and had my away with you. And I was like, gross. That's gross. You're gross. And he was like, I sell the sheets. And he was like, I'm 26. I'm allowed to be gross. I'll stop being gross when I'm 30. And I was like, okay, I'll check back in with you. And you know what? He did stop being gross. So. Okay. You know what that reminds me of? What? I don't know if we've talked about that on here.

[01:00:05] Speaking of scummy guys, there is our, we had a law review party to celebrate like our comments being published my 3L year. And a guy that had been in my section and a thorn in my side for three years saw me like, I don't know what I did. I like smacked one of my really good guy friends in the chest, like really lighthearted. And cause he said something stupid.

[01:00:30] And this guy came up to me and grabbed my boob and ran away. And I was so pissed. I like stalked after him while one of his friends tried to like get in front of me. And when I went up to him, I was just like, you know, I won't say all the things I said, but the gist of it was like, what the hell do you think you're doing? And he was just like, we're 3Ls. Like I only have two more months to sexually harass people. And. I are men. Why?

[01:01:00] He is now a very prominent attorney in Austin. He's probably still harassing people when he thinks he can get away with it. 100%. Yep. Every time I see, he reminds me of Parker. He was not my Parker. But he was someone else's Parker. He did it. He was shady to people in our section. Like that type of guy. Not everyone grows out of it. No. Oh, God, no. I've known plenty of men who should have.

[01:01:30] People who still think it's funny. They think it's funny. I've encountered a weird one, which is a gay guy grabbed my boob one time. And I was like, I was like, hey, what the hell? And he was like, oh, but I'm gay. And I was like, I'm still having my boob grabbed by someone who I didn't consent. That doesn't mean you can touch me. I don't care whether or not you're aroused by boobs. You still grabbed my boob. Yeah. Like, not okay. It's still my buddy.

[01:01:58] So I had a similar experience, Penny, in grad school for psychology where it was a gentleman who was gay. And he just kept touching me. He didn't grab my private parts. But for me, I'm someone I'm very cuddly with my friends and family. And I like that. I don't. And we had just started grad school. I didn't know this person. So it was like a month into it. And he kept touching my shoulder, touching my arm, touching my hair whenever he was moving back.

[01:02:28] It's like grooming. Yeah. And I just don't like it. It is my body, my property. That's just how I grew up. I don't like it. Yeah. And so like, and I remember telling him twice that that day alone, I'm like, please don't do that. I just, I don't like it. I don't know you well enough and I don't like it. And he just kept doing it. And then I said it to him again. And then the third time he did it, he was getting up to use the restroom in the middle of class. And I yelled at him.

[01:02:58] Nice. Because like, I, I didn't, I didn't like the professor and I was just kind of on edge and he did it again. The third time that day, because they were four hour classes. And I said, if you touch me one more toenail time, I am going to report you to the Dean. Keep your hands off of me forever now. Yeah. And like, and he finally did. Like everyone stopped and stared at me, but I'm like, I like, I'm so sick of it.

[01:03:28] What more do I need to say, bro? Like embarrassing, sometimes you have to embarrass the man for him to hear you. Like just saying like, this is the whole thing about like, why can't you just be nice? Why can't women just say no and be nice? Why do you have to be me too? Because it doesn't work. And public shaming is sometimes the only thing you can do to get a guy to leave you alone is like, say it really loud when his friends are around. Like, I don't want you touching me like that.

[01:03:58] And they don't like being embarrassed. I mean, nobody likes being embarrassed, but like embarrassment is more important to them than whether or not what they're doing is okay. Okay. So sometimes it's the only way to get someone to stop. Seriously. And it was like, and my family was surprised when I told them about it. They're like, you're so cuddly. And like, you like, you're very honest and upfront when you don't like something. I'm like, no, no, no. This was the third time in one class that I had to tell him.

[01:04:27] And they're like, oh, okay. That makes sense. They're just like, I'm just sort of like, yeah. Like if I'm not feeling it, I'm not feeling it. But like, and I'll just like, let people know. He's like, no, that was the third time. And they were like, oh, okay. I was like, yeah, no, I'm sick of it. And so, but like, yeah, it's a wild, wild thing. And also your instincts were telling you, like, I'm a cuddly person too. I love hugging and holding hands and all that stuff. And I'm very. You guys are both very good. Oh, thanks, Kara. And I love hugs.

[01:04:56] So I am a touchy person. Yeah. And I'm, you know, I'll cuddle with a friend or whatever. And, but your instincts sometimes tell you when someone touches you, there's something that happens where your instincts are like this. Feel it. This is not a good touch. Even if it's a very unassuming touch, it's your shoulder or something that normally wouldn't raise a flag. Like any sexual pleasure because I'm gay from it. I'm like, that's not really the point. It's my body.

[01:05:53] But like. Unless I see you doing that to men in front of you. Because we have been socialized that women's bodies are property. Yeah. So like. Let's talk about pregnant women and how. Oh, forget it. Complete strangers will walk up to pregnant women and like touch their bellies. But they're not even asking. And ask them. I'm about to be on the news this summer. Yeah. And ask them like really intimate personal questions. Like how is your mucus plug?

[01:06:22] It's like get away from me. Jesus Christ. Like. Toadale, toadale, toadale. Like why do you think that? I don't know. I've never been pregnant. But I have been around a lot of friends when they've been pregnant. And I've seen it happen. And I've stepped in. People feel entitled to touch. Don't do that. What are you doing? Yeah, please don't. Like if my friend doesn't defend themselves. I'll just step in and be like. Don't touch her. What are you doing? Yeah. Exactly. And it's like. That's weird. If you let us touch her belly.

[01:06:51] We just had that with my cousin who had her baby. And like in the family group chat. I'm like. If she allows us to. Like this isn't our body. It's hers. Yeah. And when do. Why are pregnant women suddenly community property? Like no. No. Do not touch. It's totally. Absolutely. Do not touch pregnant women. Unless you are their partner or a good friend. And they say. Do you want to feel the baby kick? Then you can touch them. Yeah. Ask first.

[01:07:22] You can't go wrong with asking first. It is really cool to feel the baby kick by the way. Yeah. It is really cool. Be friends with a pregnant person. But you know. Ask. Establish trust. And it's on them to hold their boundary. But speaking of people's bodies being public property. I gotta say. In the beginning of the show. When the. When Oz's band was singing. I did appreciate the man midriff. On the singer of the band. Oh. On Devin. Yeah. I mean. It wasn't bad eye candy. I think that was Devin.

[01:07:51] I did not even see him. Like I did not clock him. In the slightest. That's fine. I like. I always enjoy when Dingo's plays. Because I. There's something about the way Devin moves on stage. That I find really entertaining. He. He's sort of captured. A vibe from the 90s. That a lot of. Men. Singers had. That where they sort of. Lightly sway. And they hold the microphone. Like they're. They want to kiss it. And. Oh yeah. He's very sensual.

[01:08:20] In the way he moves on stage. I. I find it really entertaining. I also want to point out. That's the greatest. Shot of Oz. Playing guitar. That is used in the credits. Oh yeah. Where it like. Comes from below. And it's at a little bit of an angle. And he looks super super cool. Great shot. As you guys are talking about Devin. I am realizing that. As. If I close my eyes right now. I could not even picture. What his face looks like. He's got kind of a generic. I don't know how that happened. Nice looking white guy face. Like he's not.

[01:08:50] Particularly memorable. He's around. Yeah. Yeah. A decent amount. Like Cordelia has her interaction with him. Yeah. But he's just not that. Memorable. Like. Because he's kind of a dingbat too. So you're like. Yes. Whatever Devin. That's true. The statement with Harmony being more flaky than him. Yeah. I love that. Ball has to. To do it. I am so happy. Like. This episode. Thinking about it. Like. We get Spike back. We get Harmony back. We get Anya back. And I.

[01:09:20] Like. I forgot. That this is when we see all three of them. Yeah. Again. And it's just. It makes me so happy. They're all such entertaining characters. Yes. They're so good. And so talented. Such talented performers. Emma Caulfield. Is so pretty. Sometimes it like. Hurts me to look at her. I'm like. God you're pretty. I know. And. She's so funny though. And she. Oh my God. She gets funnier and funnier and funnier. As the seasons go on. I love it. I'm Anya. Yeah.

[01:09:50] I love her. And we already talked about Harmony. And how brilliant she is. And of course. Everyone knows we love Spike. Even though in this episode. He is so. Mean. When he and Buffy have their showdown. And he's like. Oh my gosh. He's like. Reading her for film. Yeah. He's like. You gave Parker a poke. And oh did you break the boy. Did you bruise him. Were you too strong. Oh my gosh. All those things he said. Were so disgusting. Vile. And so. Vile. Vile.

[01:10:19] Calculated by Spike. To get. To set Buffy off her game. But what I love is that. The more vile he is. The more determined she is to win. And. Uh huh. It reminds me of this time. I was playing pool. Um. At a wedding. There was a pool table in this like. Side room at this wedding. It was a really cool venue. It was like a castle. And um. And it was. My wedding date was another person. Who went to my college. A guy that I went to college with. And then um.

[01:10:48] We were playing against my boss. And her now wife. And. My boss knew that the fact that Vassar is co-ed. Is like a talking point. Is like a thing. And so she was taunting my friend. Who's a guy who went to Vassar. And she was like. Vassar. Isn't that a girl's school? Because she knew that that was like a thing. And she was trying to throw him off his pool game. Right? And he goes. Gosh. Women's. College. Oh. And now it's co-ed. And then he ran the table.

[01:11:19] Like. He just. Like sank every ball. Like bam bam. Bam bam bam bam bam. And we talked about it. That. Years afterward. We were like. It just made you the right exact kind of angry. Where it motivated you to just clean up at pool. And it was so funny. Like we were all laughing about it afterward. Because she was trying to throw him off. And it didn't work. I operate. Like my dad. Tells this story all the time. When I was little.

[01:11:48] They would have to tell me not to do something. In order for me to do it. Like we were trying to go to church. Or something like that. And I was not putting on. Like my shoes. Or my little Sunday school dress. Or whatever. And he was like. Don't you put that dress on. Don't you put those shoes on. And he said. I would glare at him. And like pull my shoes on. And I feel like that works now. Like if you tell me I cannot do something. Then.

[01:12:18] I'm going to do it. I'm going to do it. Well. But it's interesting how. You know. With Buffy and Spike. And their dynamic. He thinks he knows. I mean. He is hurting her. We know that those words are affecting her. Yeah. But the way that it fuels her. Is something that I really enjoy. About their dynamic. Like he knows her. So well. He really does. Respect her. And so. I think that.

[01:12:48] Yes. Being mean about Parker. He actually does. About jealousy. Like. Yeah. 100%. And like. And he's dealing with harmony. I know. Well. I'll save this for the spoiler section. But there's something there. Yeah. Yes. Where that dynamic. In his attraction to Buffy. Like. You've seen it before. And it. It is not gone. No. And we see like. Like. He gets Buffy mad. And when she gets super mad. Then she defeats him. It's like. Yes. That's right. Get mad ladies. And gents. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:13:18] Get mad. I have it down. Like when Buffy and Spike fight. And Xander comes in. Why didn't he just kill Xander? Like he. Kicked him in the ribs. And then like. Or punched him in the ribs. And then threw him. It's almost like he does respect the Scoobies. In a certain way. Like. He's not. He knows he'll piss Buffy off. Like he doesn't want to kill Willow. Exactly. He's kind of wondered. If there was like a begrudging respect. For the Scoobies. I think that. He knows they're Buffy's friends.

[01:13:48] And I think he also in that moment. Was like. If I take the time. To kill Xander. It will open me up to Buffy's. Killing me. Right. Because. He would be like. In the. In the moment. Of the kill. Would be. Just enough of a distraction. For Buffy to get in there. And he also was like. Xander's not worth my time. Like. Throw him aside. And. You know. Buffy is the main event. He's like. Shooing a fly. He's like. I could kill him anytime. Right. Like.

[01:14:17] This is my opportunity. To kill Buffy. Because I have this ring. Spike knows what he's doing. He's an excellent fighter. He's killed multiple slayers. Before. We know that at this point. And. It. You know. He's not an idiot. I think it's kind of fun. Watching their back and forth. And I think Spike also. Enjoys. That. Back and forth. It's. Way too easy. He. And he likes that Buffy. He needs to keep engaged.

[01:14:45] He likes that Buffy is always a challenge for him. He's never defeated her. He is attracted to her. And for him. Violence and. Sex. Are. Like. Merged. It's like foreplay. Right. Like. It's very clear that he and Drusilla. Engaged in. You know. Some bondage. A little S&M. The change. And he's very rough. With. Harmony. And she kind of likes it. But doesn't. She's. She's new to this world. I think. And doesn't know exactly what she likes. But.

[01:15:13] He loves that Buffy challenges him. And it's. It's a fine line for him. Between. Killing. And. Having sex with someone. Like he. Oh yeah. He can't. Separate those things in his head. Really. Well. His life and his psyche. Are. Dripping in violence. It's. Violence. Violence. All the time. Yeah. With Spike. Because. You know. Like you said. With him and Drusilla. Their dynamic. At least it was.

[01:15:42] It was consensual. With them. Drusilla was also. Very much. Into. The intersection. Of violence. And sex. But. It is. I mean. It just. It feels. Icky still. With Harmony. Because. In the show. She's. 18. She's. Newly. Graduated. And we know. In real life. That she was much younger. Than him. And. That's. One of the key. Differences. Is. The power dynamics. In her relationship. With Spike. Whereas. Drusilla and Spike.

[01:16:12] Are kind of on this. Equal. Playing field. And Harmony and Spike. Are absolutely not. And Drusilla. Sired him. And he. Always. Always. Even when they were. Engaged in their. Darkest. Creepiest. Whatever. He always. Referred to her. As like. His queen. His creator. Yeah. And. And. There was a deep. Respect that he had for her. Because of that. And I don't know if. In this vampire universe. The sire.

[01:16:43] Siree. Relationship. Is. Has like. Certain rules to it. In some vampire. Like vampire diaries. In some universes. The person who's. The vampire that sires you. You. You literally can't hurt them. Or. You have to obey their commands. I don't think that's true. In this universe. I think that. It doesn't seem like. And they don't seem to be. Psychically bonded. The way they are in some. Vampire. Mythologies. But. I think for Spike. Yeah. The fact that he owed his vampire life. To Drusilla.

[01:17:13] Was. Always gave her a little bit of power over him. No matter what. And. With Harmony. He. First of all. He just doesn't value her. Right. So he's like. You're disposable. So act like it. Like. You're lucky I let you live here with me. You know. I. I make sure you have blood. And. You're. You know. Just be quiet. Basically. And. And. She has no power. None. Beyond being a vampire herself. Right. She. She doesn't have. Yeah.

[01:17:43] Minions. She doesn't have. Experience. She's. You know. She's in a. Weak state. Really. Captures. The essence of an abusive relationship. Like. She's isolated. She can't. You know. She doesn't have. The. Means. To live anywhere else. And a lot of times. You know. The financial control. And abuse. Is a huge part of it. To keeping you tied. To this person. Yeah. And. I know that. The writers of Buffy. Are.

[01:18:13] Intelligent. For the most part. Emotionally intelligent. For the most part. And. I think. That there are. Lots of signs. In this episode. That it was written by a woman. Yeah. Same. Agreed. I think. You can. Feel it. And I also have to shout out. Whoever. Came up with the title. Of this one. Yeah. Because. The harsh light of day. And all the multiple. Meanings. Like on its face. You've got. You know. Spike. Or whatever vampire. Wearing the gem of Amara.

[01:18:43] Being able to go out. Out in. The sunlight. And not risk. Being burned. But then at the same time. The metaphor. You know. Kind of facing. Reality. Our decisions. Yeah. It's a great title. That you may have had. About. A situation. Going away. You've got. All of that. Applying to. Buffy. And multiple levels. And. It's just. I really. You know. I knew. I loved this episode. Yeah. But. I just.

[01:19:11] I think it is one of the most. Well done. Episodes. Of the series. It works on so many levels. And I think. It's nice to see them. Treat. The topic. Of. Sex. With. You know. Some sincerity. And a little bit of reverence. Mm-hmm. And. Recognizing. Like Xander says. That. There are. Consequences. When you. Engage. In that kind of intimacy. With someone. And. They give us. Three really good.

[01:19:42] Examples. And examinations. Of that. And then the end. With the three women. All. I was gonna say. The three sads. Yeah. At the end. All walking alone. At night. Just sort of. Pondering. The sadness. Of. These different. Disappointments. Yeah. It's still left with it. And processing it. I think a lot of emotional labor. Continues to be put on women. And for me. Like the three sads. At the end. Yeah. Being. You know. Walking near each other.

[01:20:11] But not connecting. And just sort of. Lost in their own misery. And it just sort of. Reminds me that. Even in. 2025. Women. Predominantly. Hold. The responsibility. Intentionally. Or not. For the emotional labor. Of what goes on in society. And so. I. It just sort of. Resonate. Like. You know. They all had that. The three of them. Had that in common. Despite. Anya being. The toxic one. And so. It's. It was just really powerful. For me. Like. That's another thing. Kara.

[01:20:41] That reminded me of like. Oh. This episode was written by. A woman. Or at least had. Jane Espenson. As the contributing writer. Yeah. It's like. Again. We're back to the beginning. Can we have a second. Of appreciation. For sexy. Casual child. Yeah. Okay. And that's huge. I'm just like. Damn. Damn child. We have reached the. Light objectification. Portion. I know. Of the program. Where.

[01:21:11] We all. Just express. Our general appreciation. For Anthony Stewart. Head. And. Enjoy him. Out of his tweets. I really love the scene. Where they find the TV. And he's like. Oh. Public television. Yes. Like. It's so cute. It's so great. I mean. As an adult. As like. An adult adult. Now. I just have this new. Appreciation. On this rewatch. For Giles. Where I'm like. Huh. Look at that. He's quite handsome. Sticking my pants.

[01:21:42] He. He is quite. Handsome. He could get it. Yeah. I have this problem. Where. This. The actor who plays Parker. Is named Adam Kaufman. And I get him. Mixed up in my head. All the time. With Wes Bentley. Wes Bentley. Played. Yeah. They do look. He was the game maker. In the first Hunger Games movie. Yeah. And they. Yeah. I could see it. They look so much alike. Adam Kaufman. Was not in Hunger Games. I may have said that. In the past.

[01:22:12] I was wrong. He was. In an episode. Of. Veronica Mars. Where. Where. He plays. A character. That Veronica. Suspects. Of. Being. An abusive. Boyfriend. And I'm sure. That the Veronica Mars. Writers. Producers. Had. This episode. Of Buffy. In mind. There's a lot of Buffy actors. That show up in. Veronica Mars. First of all. And. Including Joss Whedon. Is in an episode. Of Veronica Mars.

[01:22:41] And. I think that they were. Counting on. Veronica Mars. Having seen this episode. So that we would all be like. That's Parker. Like red flags. He's definitely the. Beating up boyfriend. Like yeah. Get him Veronica. I think they. They counted on it. There's a twist. It's not what you think. But. That's Adam Kaufman. For me. Yeah. Like for me. He is always. Forever. In my mind. Going to be.

[01:23:11] Actually came out in 2000. He was involved. In the first. Ever loving kiss. Between two gay men. On primetime television. On Dawson's Creek. On Dawson's Creek. That's right. Oh my god. I forgot about that. I always remember him. Like other than Parker. I love Jack. Yeah. So. I. I know like. Soap operas had done it before. But like. I remember like. That was such like. Not the same. That was big news. At the time. That was really big news. That was a big thing. Which would have been. Aired a little bit. After this. Yeah.

[01:23:40] Not too long after this. Episode stint in 1999. And then. You know. I did have a question. Speaking of Giles. Why is Giles door unlocked? Yeah. Like that's. That's just. Bad idea in Sunnydale. I mean. Is it because. Vampires can't enter without permission? But like. There's other things. But the monster is Giles. Yeah. Yeah. That's a good question. And then. And Sunnydale is not like this quaint. Yeah. Like town. Yeah.

[01:24:09] Like this isn't. Like are you trying to lure in demons to come see you. Rather than other helpless people in Sunnydale. I don't know. Um. And then. Giles book system. That quote cracked me up. He goes. Oh my god. Yeah. Like Xander's like. Your crazy system over here. And he goes. Your crazy system. My crazy system. It's called the alphabet. I bet. And then Xander's like. Oh. Like. What system did you think he was doing Xander? Like. What? Very special. Yeah.

[01:24:39] That's a. That's a special Xander moment. Oh my gosh. Speaking of Xander. It's not really his fault. But ick to those necklaces that he was wearing. Those necklaces. And the shell necklaces. I know it was a trend. I couldn't stand it then. I hate them now. I didn't even notice. Yeah. Oh gosh. It was like a thin one. Like. Like just. I've always disliked those necklaces. And then. Where. Where Harmony. In the beginning. When Harmony went up to Willow.

[01:25:09] And they were saying like. I haven't seen you since graduation. Big snake. Huh? I just. Sigh. Every. Florida. Everything reminds me of you. Yeah. Oh Florida. That's hilarious. Yeah. I've always liked big snake. Huh? It's so. Understated for what happened at graduation. I know. And also. That's when. That's when. Harmony got bit. Harmony became a vampire. Yeah. So for her to be like. Big snake. Huh? And not be like. Yeah. I got bit by a vampire.

[01:25:39] Yeah. Like. Yeah. I had died. So. Gosh. Hilarious. So many of my notes. So many of my notes are curse words and Parker things that we've basically talked about. But. One of my favorite points. Like we talked about the. You know. Spike in Harmony and the abusive aspects of their relationship. But. Their. Chemistry together. In terms of.

[01:26:09] Comedy. So good. Is outstanding. Like. How she gives away. Like. Yeah. When we get the ring of Amara. The gem of Amara. And he's just like. Harmony. Like. Hush. Like. You're giving it all away. And then when she points out. That Drew left him for a fungus demon. And that's all he talks about. Most days. Like. They. They play off of each other. They are really good together as a comedy duo. So well. It's. I can see them building that dynamic. Of like. Just because he's like.

[01:26:39] I'm twice your age. And I have to act like your boyfriend. And we need to have sex scenes. It's weird. I can see them building a relationship. Off of set. Not romantically. But like. That's also another reason why I really love. James Marsters. Because. It is so common to have that type of age gap. Between. Men and women in Hollywood. That it's not even. Questioned. Most of the time. And in this instance. It's like. Yeah. It's pretty weird.

[01:27:08] That this 37 year old man. Is supposed to be having love scenes. With a freshly turned 18 year old. Like. She is a child. And this was before the days. Of intimacy coordinators. That they basically. It was like them and James Contner. Working out how that was going to go. And it's not just sex scenes either. It's like. Rough. Abusive sex scenes. So. Yes. I don't know. I've never seen any interviews with Mercedes McNabb. About.

[01:27:38] That experience. And I would like to know. How that was for her. And. I would be curious. Yeah. How they approached it. Because it. Absolutely. It had to be. Really. Difficult for her. I am. I am often. Interested in. The lives of people who are. Who grew up on screen. And are child actors. And go on to become adult actors. And. Often. Often have to play. A. Losing your virginity scene. At some point. In their career. And I know that sometimes.

[01:28:08] Those actors are like. I've never had a kiss in real life. And now I'm pretending on screen. Yeah. And it's really awkward. And difficult. Yeah. And sometimes traumatizing for them. And I. I don't know what her background is. And how she felt about this scene. She was a. She was a child actress. Yeah. She was in. In Adam's family values. From. Fantastic. Before Buffy. Yeah. What's interesting is. She got married. I believe in like 2012. Or 2013. And she hasn't acted since. Oh. She. She got married. I hope she's happy. Yeah. That's why.

[01:28:38] Yeah. Yeah. She's so good. Living the hype. I think she's still going to the cons though. But. Like occasionally. But. Yeah. Like the comic cons. She also had a great episode of Supernatural. Where she was also. Oh yeah. So great. So great. And the James Marsters. Charisma's Carpenter episode of Supernatural. Oh yeah. That's great too. I love that one. Another great one. I always think like. You know. Fanfic in my head of like. Like Buffy and Dean. Yeah. Like they'd make a good.

[01:29:07] A good pairing. They would. They would be the hottest couple. I know. That would be insane. I think their personalities would mesh too. I think that they. Buffy would be the only. Woman that Dean. Could have a long term relationship with. Yeah. She could keep up. With you know. The crazy lifestyle. That the Winchesters have. And. Dean's a romantic. He is. He is. I feel like. He would let her be in charge too. Like you know. And he'd be happy about it.

[01:29:37] Yeah. Yeah. He'd be like. You know. He'd let his job. She's the boss and I like it. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. I could totally see. Like those two having like. A good. A good healthy dynamic. Another like. Different shows and stuff like that. But like. Yeah. Like aww. I think they'd make a cute couple. I think they would be good for each other. Yeah. That's a crossover I would have loved to have seen. Yeah. Right. Winchesters over on Buffy. I know. Or even if they just did like a. Sarah Michelle Gellar or something. Yeah.

[01:30:07] A cameo where they play a different character. But they're. Yeah. You know. I think they talk about Buffy. But. It would make people really happy. Yeah. Yeah. A lot of. A lot of Buffy actors do at some point show up on Supernatural. I mean there's 15 seasons of Supernatural. There's a lot of opportunity. Yes. Very much so. But at that point in time Sarah Michelle Gellar was being Daphne and other. Doing a lot of horror movies and stuff.

[01:30:36] She wasn't doing TV after Buffy. I love how when Parker points out Buffy's scar. She's like oh it was an angry puppy. And the references that keep coming up to angry puppy being obviously Angel. Biting her. Every time I hear it. Just such a glorious flashback to The Wish. When Willow keeps. Calling him the puppy. The puppy. The puppy bite. So bizarre. And so funny.

[01:31:05] And that whole scene where they you know go and approach and kind of interrupt Buffy and Parker when Oz and Willow have to go tell her they ran into it. That was great. Yeah. And Oz like no question just immediately picks up on yeah that angry puppy. Yeah. Oz doesn't miss a beat. You know we never really get a lot of Oz backstory. And I would love to know how he got to be so even keel. No. Very well adjusted.

[01:31:34] For some reason I just saw a clip again of the episode where he finds out about vampires at Buffy's surprise birthday party. Where he's like. He's like. Did everybody else see that guy just turned to dust? Like. Like. And at no point do we see any indication that Oz is a stoner. But the way he responds to things is often very stonerish. Yeah. And. Yeah. He's a little philosophical. There are people who are naturally like that. I've known people like that. And.

[01:32:04] Yeah. And he's just like. Those are some of my favorite people because I am so high strung. It's pleasant to be around those people. Yeah. They just have this lovely calming effect. Yeah. Oz is lovely. I would love to hang out with Oz. I think he would be a great buddy. Yes. And. I also find him very attractive but I would never want to get in between him and Willow because I think they're great together but. Oz is. Yeah. Nobody should ever get between Oz. Oz is. Is. Is fantastic.

[01:32:34] And I. For a long time. I wanted an Oz spinoff show. I was like. Yeah. They were talking about that one thing. I want to see Oz like. Traipsing around the world. That would be pretty great. Like learning about werewolf lore and stuff. That'd be so cool. You know Oz would fit in well with the Winchesters as well. Yeah. Oh yeah. Let's see. The only other thing. I had two more little points. One. I thought it was interesting that when Spike and Buffy are fighting the same arm he hurts

[01:33:04] is the one that Sunday. Oh yeah. And the freshman. Like more signs of Buffy's kind of vulnerability. The fact that. You know. She's actually taking some damage. In these fights. Lately. Yeah. And I think that really adds to her mental state. And makes what Parker did. Even more kind of diabolical. For her. And I think we'll see the effects of that. Coming up. The only other thing is. I think. You know.

[01:33:34] We see all of this. You know. All of these relationships. And how they're dealing with the consequences. And the ramifications of sex. And being physically intimate. And the show kind of ends. With a. You know. Kind of lovely display. Of love. Like true love. With Buffy. Deciding to. Get the gem of Amara. To Angel. It's. It's not even really a question.

[01:34:04] For her. And. You know. Willow. Even. When Xander. Kind of clicks. She's like. You know. Don't make a thing. Don't question it. Like. Don't make it a thing. She's. Gonna. Get it to Angel. And I just think that's. Kind of a. A nice way. To end it. And obviously. This episode was. Advertised as a crossover. For Angel. So we'll get to talk about it. Better believe I watched it. Next week. Yeah. Right away. Because I have no impulse control.

[01:34:35] Yeah. That's what I'll be doing. Right after this. I think that means it's time. For us to get into some. Pop. Not pop. Culture. References. And there were many. Yep. There. There were. The first one. Of course. We love hearing Giles. Talk about. Anything really. But offering his wisdom. About the gym of Amara. He said. It's not real.

[01:35:03] It's like the vampire equivalent. Of the holy grail. And of course. The holy grail. According to some legends. Of the middle ages. Particularly Arthurian legends. Was the cup used by Jesus. In dispensing the wine. At the last supper. And according to others. It was the platter on which. The pascal lamb. Was served. At the last Passover. Observed by Christ. The grail. And the grail. And the quest for it. Has been the subject. Of a ton.

[01:35:32] Of medieval legend. And allegory. And a lot of. Modern day. Tellings. This point. Kind of goes. On and on. We could talk about. The holy grail forever. But I think. Of course. Of Monty Python. And the holy grail. And all of the lore. Around. The knights. Of the round table. And I think that's. A great way to emphasize. Just how. Important. The gem. Of Amara is. And. Why. Spike.

[01:36:01] And so many others. Would be so eager. To find it. Also reminds me of. That Indiana Jones movie. Is it the fourth one? With Sean Connery. When they are searching. For the grail. Very intense. But. Monty Python. Search for the holy grail. Is one of those movies. That. I think you have to see it. When you're about 13. Yeah. Otherwise. It's too late. In your adulthood. To really enjoy the humor. But.

[01:36:31] That's true. I still enjoy it. Because I enjoyed it so much. When I was a kid. I feel like that. For like Star Wars too. Oh and the Da Vinci Code. Yeah. That's another big. Holy grail. Piece of. Yeah. It's very. It's. It looms large. In western culture. Yeah. Xander says. To Anya. On the fact that she's dreamt about him. Really? You know. If I'm in the checkout lane at Walmart. I've had the same one. Walmart is a huge chain of stores in the U.S.

[01:37:00] Selling everything from basic food items. To guns. To clothes. To televisions. It's important to note. If you didn't know. That she was. That he's naked in the dreams. And that's why it's funny. Yeah. And Xander's like. Oh I've had that dream. Yeah. I love that. Harmony says. Is Antonio Banderas a vampire? Spike replies. No. Harmony says. Oh. Can I make him a vampire? Spike says. No. Wait. On second thought. Yeah. Go do that. Take your time. Do Melanie and the kids as well.

[01:37:31] Antonio Banderas is a notoriously handsome actor. And producer and director. He did play a vampire. Armand. In 1994's Interview with the Vampire. Melanie is Melanie Griffith. His celebrity actress. Wife at the time. Known for her squeaky voice. Though Griffith has three children. Only one of them was fathered by Banderas. And they are no longer together. Also when. Are they not? Oh yeah. How did I not know that?

[01:38:01] When did. That's been a long time. It's been a bit. But also. Maybe I didn't know. When this was airing. In the fall of 1999. I was like. What movies would. Harmony have seen around that time. To make her really get pulled in. By Antonio Banderas. But I think what Harmony would have seen him in. Not just the movies he was in. And I'm guessing it was. When was Zorro? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Would have been the one I would imagine she would have seen. Because that came out a year or two before. Seeing him.

[01:38:29] And Catherine Zeta-Jones. In that movie. And being like. Huh. Yeah. I like. Who are all these. I know. I like all people. Interesting. Absolutely. They're all amazing. I want a sandwich. Oh jeez. Yep. Not teen you. I love that. Yeah. Yeah. Sure. Yep. That and the mummy. There you go. Yeah. A lot of beauty on screen there.

[01:38:59] All works. Oh. That's funny. And finally. Oz is perusing Giles albums. And compliments his music taste. And asks him specifically about the album Loaded by The Velvet Underground. That is a great album. Which is a great album. That had a lot of play time in my college years. Nice. And now we are moving on to trivia.

[01:39:26] Which is very hard to differentiate from culture references. But there you have it. Yep. JW has mentioned in various interviews. That Sarah Michelle Gellar disagreed with Buffy sleeping with Parker. She thought it was too soon after Angel had left her. And she didn't think that Buffy would do something like that. Whedon told Sarah that when you quote. Go to college you do stupid things. End quote. Yeah.

[01:39:53] So I like how he mansplained a woman's experience to a woman. And apparently JW. JW, you continue to do stupid things as an adult. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Oh, dear. But I thought that was interesting. That she thought it'd be too soon. Which I get that perspective. Except it's been at least three months. But at the same time. Yeah. Yeah. And he is.

[01:40:20] If it was just a one night stand type thing. Where she met him at a party. Sure. But I think she was already feeling so vulnerable. After her whole interaction with Sunday. She was feeling kind of broken down. And Parker helped her feel good. And then worse. And feel worthy of attention. Yep. Boy. And then another JW mention.

[01:40:48] He has said that losing Cordelia as the voice of reason. Who, of course, as we know, would not sugarcoat things for the Scooby gang. Changed the dynamic of the show. And he realized they would need someone to fill her absence. And this opened the door to bringing Spike on as a cast member for the rest of the series. He would appear. This is kind of a spoiler. But he would appear in every episode. Starting with episode six. Wild at Heart.

[01:41:15] James Marster, Spike, was uncredited in the original airing of The Harsh Light of Day. But was later added to the opening credits. This was so as not to spoil the surprise of his character's reappearance. And thank you for that. Because it was a surprise. I would always consider it. The following was a stage direction from the script for The Harsh Light of Day. When Spike and Harmony entered the crypt where the gem of Amara was. Quote, There is a dead demon here.

[01:41:45] Withered and decayed. And brown and crunchy. Arrayed in finery on a carved wooden bier. End quote. It's very descriptive. Brown and crunchy. Okay. Oh man. And then Devin, who apparently I can't remember to save my life, played by Jason Hall, actually made his final appearance in this episode.

[01:42:11] The character is mentioned again in a couple episodes in Something Blue and New Moon Rising. But we never see him again. So farewell, Devin. This exchange between Willow and Buffy was deleted from the final cut of the episode. Willow says, you know what else I love about college? How when the professor comes in, the class gets all quiet. And Buffy says, oh, I hate that. I'm always like, what? Did something scary come in? Do I have to kill it? Oh yeah. I wish they left that in. That's funny.

[01:42:40] That's harsh though. There were a lot of deleted scenes. That's some hypervigilance trauma garbage right there, man. Yeah. Oh yeah. Do I have to kill it? And also, accurate. Yeah. Like, she won a whole umbrella award because that literally was her job. When people get quiet, she has to go kill things. The following line was cut after they first see Harmony again. Devin.

[01:43:09] Man, that looked like Harmony. Weird. I saw her get bit at graduation. I didn't tell you? That kind of wasn't funny. Of course. Yeah. Um, the following exchanges between Buffy and Parker were cut regarding Buffy's drowning. Right after she tells him, Parker says, wow, I mean, you hear about stuff like that. And Buffy says, yeah, well, pool safety is important anyway. That's cute.

[01:43:38] Um, and then Parker says, oh, Buffy, when you drowned, whoever brought you back, they're getting a big kiss from me. And Buffy said, Xander will be so happy. Which I love. Yeah. I think that's pretty great. That would be hot. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, as we saw in Dawson's Creek, it definitely would have been hot. He's a good kisser. And a better way to send off Parker. And Xander.

[01:44:09] There were a lot of cuts. That would have been an interesting more story. There, I didn't even include. There were a lot of cut lines from this episode. So here's another one. The best. From Xander. When Anya visits him at Giles's place in the, and in the basement. This is just, I'd say out of nowhere, but that doesn't really capture the amount of nowhere, which it's out of. That's a very Xander line. So you're my first guest at Casa del Xander. Not the final name. Still working on it. I like those lines.

[01:44:39] Yeah. Yeah. And this is my favorite. The following exchange between Buffy and Giles about Spike and Harmony's relationship that was deleted. Buffy. I mean, I thought Spike and Drew were a forever kind of deal, didn't you? Where's the commitment? Giles. I'm disillusioned. I shall never love again. That is funny. I love that. Kept that in. I like those stuff.

[01:45:10] I could just picture him delivering. Yeah. Line. And so dry. Yeah. So amazing. That's a classic Giles line. Love it. Oh, yeah. All right, ladies. I can't believe I just called you ladies. It's all good. I've been called worse. All right, bitches. Yeah.

[01:45:37] Does it still slay? Kara, what do you think? I mean, I can't imagine that anybody doesn't know what my answer to this question is going to be at this point, but I think it absolutely still slays. I think it's clear there was so much good material that they couldn't even include. I thought it was a very thoughtful treatment of the subject at hand. And I really like it. Even though it makes me uncomfortable, I think it's a good kind of uncomfortable.

[01:46:07] And I think it absolutely does still slay. Sam? I agree. I second. I think with some minor tweaks with technology updates, like instead of the dorm phone, Buffy has a cell phone. The pay phone. I mean, yeah, like just some small tweaks. And this could have been set in 2024. I mean, it is just so, at least to me, it just, it feels especially relevant. I also agree that it still slays.

[01:46:36] I think the vitriol we all have for Parker tells us that this was a well-written character and that the episode has an impact. And I agree that it really holds up over time. Certain things don't change. Technology changes, fashion changes, but dating, relationships between men and women, a lot of that stuff is eternal. Oh, yeah.

[01:47:06] There's a reason why Shakespeare plays are still relevant. When we don't even have to understand exactly what they're saying, we can get the gist. We're like, no, that tracks. Also, Shakespeare is very dirty. So many dirty jokes. Oh, yeah. We first did Shakespeare plays when I was in fifth grade. And of course, I didn't get all the jokes. Yeah. But like, my goodness, we shouldn't be teaching kids those jokes. They're very clever. I was on a Shakespeare team in high school. What's a team?

[01:47:35] What's a Shakespeare team? Okay. I think you win the number one. I know. I was very well-rounded in high school. Yeah. I know. Well, and it was funny. Everybody, all my friends made fun of me for doing it too. But you would go to competitions where you would either answer questions or analyze certain quotes.

[01:48:04] And then you would be graded. And your team would be awarded a certain number of points. And you could win. So it was like an academic competition. Oh, interesting. But solely for Shakespeare. Okay. That is deeply nerdy. But I respect it. So nerdy. Yeah. That's why I like to say, I did a little bit of everything. I was on the volleyball team. I was on the swim team. I did theater. Well, you had me beat.

[01:48:30] I did theater, yearbook, choir, and what was the last one? It was newspaper. And I also volunteered at our library. School library. Not original library. Nice. My nerd card is deep. I played volleyball. I founded a poetry club. Nice. Lots and lots of theater, chorus.

[01:48:59] I was in Students Against Drunk Driving. And I was like the vice president of it or something like that. And I did a bunch of stuff outside of school. Like I had a part-time job. And I was very active in my church youth group. And I did a bunch of church leadership stuff. Like I was the teen representative on the church board and stuff. Dang. I gave sermons. Like I was really active in my church. Even though I was very upfront about the fact that I wasn't sure I believed in God,

[01:49:28] I was still like very active. Because I believed in the community building aspects of church. Right. That makes sense. Gosh, my first job was at a dating salon. Yeah. I worked at The Gap. It's the most 80s high school stereotype in the whole world. I worked at Blockbuster. That's the 90s early aughts version. Yeah. Yeah. I am so good at folding things, you guys. I'm the best folder. So good. A lost art.

[01:49:58] I think now it is time. In fact, I know now that it is time for us to go over to the bronze. I know I could use a beer and a game of pool. I don't know about you guys. That actually sounds delicious. Yes. Bronze things. Things of bronze. Let's see what some of our listeners had to say. Sam, you want to read that first one? Sure. It's from Becky. Great episode. Harmony's return with Spike added some fun.

[01:50:28] I loved Buffy's comment about her being a mess because she can't see her reflection anymore. That was great. I can't wait for Buffy to be in a more healthy relationship. I relate to her having a moment with someone thinking it meant something only to discover it didn't to them anyway. Spike was cruel with his comment about her not being worth another go. I'm excited for the crossover episode with Oz when Oz gets to LA.

[01:50:58] One of my favorite episodes of Angel. Finished listening to the pod on the Angel pilot. Y'all got me super excited for the rewatch. Arr. Arr. I love it, Becky. Yay. I'm with you. I couldn't even hold up. Hold back. I had to go and watch the Angel episode. It just gets so good. I'll read this one from Karen who says, I'm still not loving low confidence Buffy,

[01:51:25] but I can't complain about any episode with Spike. I'm thinking, why does he treat Harmony so bad? But then, oh yeah, he's evil. And he's totally on the rebound. Also, this totally plays into the sexy vampire trope. Like you're way sexier as a vampire. I do get a little ick now with the Xander-Anya scene. There's a little too, that's a little too male fantasy for me.

[01:51:52] Especially seeing Xander as a substitute for JW. Barf emoji. Ooh, good point. It is a fantasy. Like a beautiful woman comes to your home and takes her clothes off and asks for sex. And is trying to convince you to have sex with them. And that he is the stand-in for JW. Yeah, that does bring a nick factor. It's a little gross. She's right. Who's next? Kara. Okay.

[01:52:19] We've got an email from Coffee and Vodka. He says, Greetings, fellow sideline slayers. The through line of this one was either guys or expectations or both being more insidious villains than blood-sucking vampires. Although this was kind of cool in that it showed four distinct relationship types and how all but one could go awry. With that fourth also eventually falling to the wayside.

[01:52:47] So, you know, another cheery Sunnydale romp with the Scooby gang. Liked the MacGuffin even more how it was discovered. Never much of a Harmony fan. I want to hear more about that. Tell me about not being a Harmony fan. We love her. Because clearly the three of us are all on board. I want to hear more. Even pushed me into going back into season two, episode three.

[01:53:10] To recheck Drew, remembering how awesome a character and crush-worthy she was. Very true. Liked this one on all levels. And on reflection, Spike was more comic relief than threat. Leaving Parker the only real villainous stake bait for me. That's a good point. That is very true.

[01:53:33] And he gives it 3.5 off Harmonies, Rings of Power, and Spiked Spikes out of 5. Peace and take care, Coffee and Vodka. I gotta say, I hadn't really thought about it, but I'm like, I've never dated a Harmony. So maybe that's a part of it. I kind of look at her as this really entertaining character that is funny and very talented actress. But I've never had a romantic experience with a Harmony.

[01:54:03] So that would change things. I definitely wouldn't date. I mean, she also, like, comparing her to Drusilla is just not fair. Because Drew is so fabulous. She's just hot and sexy and cool. Yeah. Yeah, I know. I know. But poor Harm. Harm's like the Timu version of Drusilla. Yeah.

[01:54:28] Now she keeps calling her Dorcas, which is a great, like, kind of Salem witch trials-esque name. It's awesome. Sam, you want to read the next one? The next one is from Piotr. Hello, Still Slaying. I'm excited about your new episodes, but kicking myself for not commenting on the previous ones. That's okay. We missed you. I got sidetracked. But if you don't mind, I will do a brief recap. Oh, yay. The Freshman.

[01:54:58] Not the greatest Buffy episode, but it resonates with me on a personal level. I think I've watched it more times than other episodes because I've been there. I always come back to it when I need to clear the voices of doubt. What if I can't cut it? I guess I'm looking for ways to dust the bad things without even looking and then remark, it's a lot like high school, which I can handle. My college entrance was fairly disorienting as well.

[01:55:24] I started grad school in Massachusetts, barely speaking English, so I know what not knowing what's up on campus means, especially when my classmates seem super on the ball. Hi, Doug. Oh, that's because when she's talking to Oz about being disoriented, he's like, yeah, me too. Oh, hi, Doug. Yeah. I can't imagine what that's like, you know, the college experience, the grad school experience on top of it's a different language. Oh my goodness.

[01:55:54] That's a lot. Yeah. About living conditions, Buffy was acting like a total bitka. That's true. Great callback. It has been indicated that it was mostly because of the soul sucking ritual, but I found it amusing that it was hard to distinguish which aspects of her behavior were coming from the fact of being a single child suddenly matched up with a random cohabitant and which were supernatural in nature.

[01:56:24] Totally agree. He goes on to say, hey, Giles has a TV. He's shallow like us. I intended to record my message today before the deadline, but I feel under the weather today and don't sound very good. I hope a written one isn't enough, but I might have to challenge Penny to read it with a Polish accent. Are you kidding me? Do it. Do it. I feel like that would be so offensive. True. That's a good point.

[01:56:54] I'm really, I'm just going to read it with my own normal accent, which some people say has a hint of Boston in it, but I don't hear it. I'm really excited about the new episodes, but kicking myself for not commenting on the previous ones. You know what, Piotr? It's a marathon. It's all good. It's not a sprint. It's all good. There are so many episodes coming. Yeah. We're always going to be here for you. Mm-hmm. As a wise man once said, plunge and move on. That sounds dirty. Harsh light of day. Spike is back.

[01:57:22] The most tolerant guy in the world for dating Harmony. I know he's a villain, but I felt giddy for him when he found the gem of Amara after many hours of handling sexy power tools. I understand that feeling of having broken the rules to become impervious to the usual limitations. My other go-to scene that evokes it in the movies is the one when Tony Stark took his new Iron Man suit for a spin or when Neo sees the Matrix.

[01:57:50] Buffy had her giddy, let's test my new power moment. In the earshot episode. And let's not forget Mayor Wilkins, except in this case, there was no excitement of going out to uselessly check out the new abilities. Letting a vampire slice him in half with a sword was more of a calculated scientific test. If I was in his position, I would go out parkouring on rooftops with no consequences. Yeah.

[01:58:17] That's kind of like what Spider-Man does in every Spider-Man movie. Parker, the poophead. Come to think of it, I don't even know what was the purpose of this character. He doesn't drive the plot line at all, aside from making Buffy seem vulnerable and clueless. Maybe it serves as a public announcement. Watch out for the pitfalls of hookup culture, kids, as if JW was a great authority to give such advice. The way we view morality can be subjective.

[01:58:45] It's not about the number of partners we engage with. Incels choose not to engage with any partners at all. I don't know if they choose, but anyway. Choose not to engage with any partners at all, and they still manage to be misogynistic a-holes about it. Nothing can be labeled as intrinsically immoral out of context as long as honesty is in the mix. If Parker made his intentions clear to others beforehand instead of saying stuff like, my mom is coming to visit, it would have been perfectly fine.

[01:59:13] This lifestyle is a totally normal choice people make. We call it polyamory. The main principle, as it is in all aspects of our life, is treat others the way they want to be treated. Buffy missed all the red flags because being enchanted by a crush creates major blind spots, and her insecurity about relationships transpired again, especially when she panicked seeing the empty spot next to her when she woke up. Oh no, did he go bad like Angel? No, he didn't.

[01:59:42] He already was a toenail dude to start with. The insecurity makes us believe that we are the ones who screwed up. It was sad to watch Buffy being so apologetic to his lying weasel. The poophead principle was hard for her to grasp because she still had feelings for him and couldn't wrap her head around the fact that a person she was intimate with would do such a thing. And finally, that party at the Wolf House. How do we get an invite? That's true.

[02:00:10] Like that awesome band that looks like a good party. That will be all for now. I hope you are well and your year will be bountiful and peaceful despite of you know what. Thank you, Peter. I hope you're feeling better. Yeah. I can't wait to hear your voice on future voicemail. Speaking of voicemails, we have one from Steve. Hello, Still Slaying. This is Steve. I'm just watching Living Conditions trying to get caught up with the podcast and I realized

[02:00:40] something that I didn't hear you mention on the podcast from last week that Buffy's closet has a sliding lock on the outside of the door. Who's she going to lock in there? Is she afraid the weapons are going to get out by themselves? Okay. Finished that one. So on to Heart's Light of Day. Oh, I love the quick reference to the fact that Oz and his band are going to L.A. because I think this is the one that we're going to have a crossover with Angel, right? Oh, and Harmony's back. Boy, that's right. She's a vampire and she's biting Willow.

[02:01:10] Oz to the rescue. Okay. Oh, that's right. And Buffy and Parker and she's telling him a lot of secrets. Well, that she drowned at least. Uh-oh. Anya wants to have the relationship conversation. He forgot that Spike is her quote unquote boyfriend and she wants him to kill Willow and tell him this is for my sweet girl. And they're looking for something, right? Oh, Buffy just encountered Spike and Harmony with their next friend.

[02:01:38] Oh, and this one's already been bitten because he's got marks on his neck. I remember this. Why Drew left him. Oh, and Harmony mentioned the gym of Amara. Whoa. Anya in Xander's basement and looking hot. Slightly naked now. I forgot. What a great line. It might be a little dated now from Spike. Oh, yeah, that's a great idea. On second life, go do that and do Melanie and the kids at the same time. Harmony talking about making Antonio Banderas a vampire.

[02:02:09] Okay. I'm going to let you all break down the Anya Xander business-like talk of sexual intercourse. I think your thoughts are going to be better and more complete than mine. How does Anya is able to make fabric softener sound sexy? I just saw Buffy's serum cell killer blast her left hand. Is she still wearing the clodder ring that she got from Angel? I just saw the hand again. I guess not. I guess she's wearing two rings on her left hand. All answering machines.

[02:02:37] I remember answering machines and leaving messages for people. And, of course, we now have Buffy preparing to make the, quote-unquote, walk of shame from Parker's dorm room. But at least he didn't turn into a monster, quote-unquote. And we have the contrasting Anya and Xander in the afterglow. And the third contrasting, Spike in Harmony. I love syphilis more than you. Okay, Spike just called Harmony a bent? I don't know what that's slang for. And Parker has not called yet.

[02:03:06] Of course, Spike thinks he has the Gem of Amara around his neck. Not. The cross still burns. Of course, he stakes Harmony, but she has the gem. Oh, and she overhears Parker telling the same story about his dad to another girl. Buffy, I mean. Oh, what a jerk. Making you feel like it's her fault that you're a jerk? Jerk, Parker? And Anya is obviously not over Xander either. That, look, Emma Caulfield played that so well. Oh, and Buffy still got it.

[02:03:33] She's still a better fighter than Spike, but the stunt double is obviously as tall as James Marsters. But she got the ring off his finger, but, of course, he's back in the sewers. All right. And Oz is going to take the ring to L.A. And Buffy and Willow are having their girl time. And I've gone long, so talk to you next week. Thanks, Steve. Thanks, Steve. I love that we can hear the episode in the background. I know. Yeah. And I think the – So, yeah.

[02:04:01] Well, I may be misunderstanding you, Steve. She has a lock on the outside of her closet so that she can lock it so that her roommate, Kathy, can't get in and take her stuff. Which, typical Buffy fashion. She forgot to lock the closet. Yeah. Oh, Buffy. With the weapons in there and everything. But in my understanding of a bent from looking it up, what I watched this episode again is like a really derogatory term for a woman.

[02:04:31] Basically, like, somewhat harsher than – This show – Could be harsher than bitch. It also gets away with a lot of swear words or sort of slang that's British that if Americans truly understood those slang words, they would be banned the same way that, you know, toenail words are banned. Because bloody is – they say it constantly on the show.

[02:05:01] And it's similar – JW employed an even smarter technique for the show Firefly where all of the swear words are in Chinese. And so they were able to just swear on the show. Makes sense. It's a smart strategy. Special. Yeah. It's really good. But I've never heard that word bent anywhere except for on Buffy. Buffy.

[02:05:27] So it's good to know that it's really, really insulting in case I ever want to insult somebody in the UK. But I haven't heard it. It's not bent. It's bent. It's B-I-N-T. B-I-N-T. That completely passed me over. I think it's like the C word. Ah. That makes sense. Which they use in the UK rampantly. Oh my god, I know. The way that we use – It's less harsh there.

[02:05:56] They use the C word, but – They do. America is surprisingly conservative. I guess not surprisingly in some ways. Well, a little puritanical. Thank you. Compared to most of the world. We'll kill children in schools, but don't say the C word. 100%. 100%. Yes. Like, what is this? Oh god. Yep. Thanks, Steve.

[02:06:21] Okay, before we get into gun control, I'm going to call it as the end of the main part of the podcast. And if you want to hear us talk spoilers, then, you know, stay tuned at the end for The Watcher's Diaries. Woohoo! Woohoo! And, of course, if you'd like to join the conversation, you can find all of our contact information at podcastica.com and in the show notes for each of our episodes.

[02:06:45] Also at podcastica.com, you'll find links to all of our social media pages and all of our other shows. So many podcastica podcasts to choose from. I know I've mentioned Squid Gamecast on here before. I also just this morning listened to the latest Walking Dead rewatch podcast in preparation because I'm going to be guesting on that for the next episode. So I've got to be up to speed on Walking Dead. What are you guys listening to lately?

[02:07:17] I have been all in on Sam Game. That's been my main one, too. So Squid Game is really good. Yep. It's really fun. I did go back and listen to some of the coverage of the latest season of Cobra Kai because I've had a lot of fun kind of playing catch up on that one here and there. And I think it's fun to listen to because their enthusiasm for that show comes through so much.

[02:07:44] And if you're a fan at all of Cobra Kai or the Karate Kid franchise, I definitely recommend it. And if you like what we do, give us a five star rating, a review or a like, follow and subscribe. Next time we'll be covering Angel Season 1, Episode 3, In the Dark. Thanks, everyone. And it happened, right? Did it happen with Parker? Yeah, it happened. Well, and details.

[02:08:13] I mean, not details. I don't need a diagram, but, you know, like maybe a blurry watercolor. Willow's so cute. She is cute. All right. That's the end of the non-spoiler section. And if you want to avoid spoilers, now's the time. Stop listening. Turn off your whatever phone, computer, TV, however, Alexa, however you listen to us. And on to The Watcher's Diaries.

[02:08:59] There is so much good harmony to come in future seasons. Because she joins the cast of Angel, and it is so great. Also, the main thing that I was trying to keep my mouth shut about is when, Penny, you were talking about how Spike, clearly, like there's a little bit of jealousy in his jabs towards Buffy about Parker. Yeah.

[02:09:24] And which we see when he makes Harmony dress up as Buffy, as kind of like this weird role-playing scenario. You wonder if maybe Spike subconsciously hooked up with Harmony in the first place, because she sort of kind of resembles Buffy. Yeah. And then he was like, oh, no. Now I'm with this, like, annoying person. But at least I can have a lot of sex with her, and that's fun.

[02:09:54] The Buffy bot storyline is so messed up. So gross. But Harmony continues to be a joy for the rest of this season and in season five, when she tries to be her own boss and get minions and everything. And it's so fun and delightful. So wonderful. She is pretty fantastic. She's great.

[02:10:18] There's a hair-pulling thing that I misremembered as happening in this episode, but it's in a future episode. I thought it was happening in this episode, too. Yeah. And yeah, I guess it's when she has her own gang or something. Yeah. Oh, my gosh. And she's just like, she can't keep her mouth shut. Like, you'll see when we get the Gem of Amora. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So funny. She's just not very bright. She's a terrible villain, but a great one at that, like, at the same time.

[02:10:45] I think that's why she's endearing to me, because she's so bad at being bad. She's adorable. Like, I just love her. I can't help it. And she's not a well-meaning dum-dum. Like, there's a long history in TV and movies of, like, lovable dum-dums, right? She's not a very nice person, even as a human. She's not Jason Mendoza. She's not Woody from Cheers. You know, she's not that kind of, like, heart of gold dope.

[02:11:18] In high school, she was mean. And now she's a vampire and has no soul, and she's still kind of mean. She's just so dumb that it's funny. Yeah. Like, I think she was introduced to be a foil to Cordelia as Cordelia grew out of her role into someone who was more realized and more multidimensional. And I think that – I could be wrong.

[02:11:43] I think that sort of character dynamic and that character foundation was what they went on to use in the Vampire Diaries for Caroline. Yeah. So it's a character that starts out vapid and very self-interested. I mean, she's 16, I think. So, I mean, it's, you know, par for the course. But then you see her develop into – go from a mean girl, so to speak, into more of a fully realized person. Yeah. So, like, whenever I think about Cordelia and Harmony, I think of them together as those

[02:12:12] foils with each other. And then thinking about where the shows go from there is kind of cool. Yeah. Harmony, when she joins Angel, is so delightful. Oh my gosh. It was genius. Spike can't get rid of her. Oh my gosh. I also love when Spike questions – or when Parker asks if Spike is an ex-boyfriend of Buffy's. Oh, and Buffy just cracks up. She just cracks up. I'm like, just you wait, Buffy. Not now, but in the future. Yeah.

[02:12:42] And then I got a little, like, icked out when I'd forgotten his relationship with Harmony was so toxic and abusive. Yeah. And I was like, oh gosh, I guess we should have seen this coming, huh? Yeah. Yeah. Like, what his thing with Buffy afterwards. That's such a complicated situation. Their dynamic is really messed up. And also – It's really unhealthy. The inclusion of superpowers in the mix just – it models things that I hope that young

[02:13:12] viewers don't think are good. Because the Buffy relationship with Spike, there's a lot of, like, sort of rough sex and violence mixed in. And it looks sort of sexy and exciting, but in real life that would be horrible. It's true. And I don't want people to think it's a relationship to admire. That is what's hard, because honestly, some of those scenes between them, like, they're

[02:13:41] freaking hot. And I always have such complex feelings. I'm just like, damn. Like, the scene when they literally bring that house down. Yeah. Yeah. She's like, oh gosh, why is this so, like – Well, so, like, they're rough sex. And the violence in their relationship, to me, that's not the worst part of it. It's outside of that. Yeah. It's how they treat each other when they're not having sex. Yeah, they're mean.

[02:14:11] It's like, oh, no, no, no. That's true. Again, yeah, this is a sexual preference or a kink. Again, you guys – like, you're meant to talk about this. Yeah. And, like, there's a lid for every pot, but it doesn't seem that way. It seems like those are two broken people who are just trying to feel something. Yeah. And, yeah, they can manage when they're having sex. And that was, like, hot and awesome. It's the outside of it that felt icky. And I was like, oh, no.

[02:14:36] I will never, ever forgive them for the – you know, a little bit of a trigger warning for the scene where Spike, like, no question, sexually assaults Buffy. A hundred percent. I don't think it was in his character. It sounds like from interviews that James Marsters has not forgiven it either. Oh, yeah. He hates it. It sent him into therapy. He couldn't handle it. Which is the appropriate response. Exactly. Having to – yeah, because you have to be that character.

[02:15:07] And, you know, we can talk more about when we get, like, to that episode and stuff. JW has been very vocal of he wanted people to hate the character Spike. And that was how far he thought he had to go. I think he was just jealous that people were – Yeah, and it was – yeah. I mean, he was trying to find ways. He's like, he kept pushing this character to make the audience hate him. And he's like, now I know they'll hate him after this. Nope. But that is the thing. Congratulations, we just hate you now. Yeah, exactly.

[02:15:34] And it's not – like, Angelus was a rapist. That's for certain. That's mentioned numerous times by Angelus himself. Which is why he is constantly living in pain and shame. Yeah. And to my knowledge, Spike has never said that he ever did that. No. But he was always a romantic, like, in real life. And even as a vampire, like, there was something different about him. I doubt he cheated on her. No.

[02:16:04] Like, he seemed completely dedicated to her. And I just – I don't think he – I don't think that he got any joy from – like, he says at some point in season five of Angel, he's like, for me it was never about being evil. Like, for Angelus, it was about being evil and causing people pain. And for Spike, it was about having fun. And he didn't find sexual assault to be fun.

[02:16:35] Yeah. And so that's not something he pursued as a vampire. But Angelus, it was about how can I cause the most pain? So, of course, that was part of what he did when he was Angelus. Which is so demented. Yes. It is dark. The choice at the end of season six, after that horrible assault of Buffy, that Spike leaves town and goes and gets his soul.

[02:17:03] I think – I don't know if JW was still trying to make people dislike Spike because then he goes and gets his soul. And all of us are like – the only interpretation you can get from that is that what he did to Buffy was so bad that even a vampire was like, I need to change on a fundamental level. Yeah. And it was something I wonder if the other writers – because he had sort of been phased out towards the end of Buffy.

[02:17:31] Like, he was still obviously an executive producer and, you know, all that stuff. But from what I understand, I could be wrong, they started to phase him out and other writers were coming in. Because he – I think it was like that season was just a hot mess. So, like, it was – they were trying to filter that out and get a more centered thing. So, like, I mean, when he comes back, yeah, he's, like, very remorseful and tortured.

[02:17:59] And so, yeah, I think they – they said, like, okay, we'll do this, but we're going to take him in a different direction. Because he did something so awful for him, he is going to get a soul and, like, you know, follow it to that ending. So, I remember, you know, there was a lot going on with JW where they had to minimize his role on the show, at least on set and stuff. Like, he couldn't be left alone with the actress who played Dawn. Not for any sexually inappropriate things.

[02:18:27] It's more of just the way he would terrorize the women on his set. They didn't want him – He was just a jerk. Yeah. Being verbally abusive to a child because she was underage. Michelle Trachtenberg. So, yeah, I think they were holding on to his baby and he was getting – he was collecting all the checks. But I think they were starting to filter him out because it just – I think he had also started trying to – he was full-time working on Firefly. So, you know, he – Which is another great show.

[02:18:54] He left Buffy and Angel in the capable hands of Jane Espenson and went over and started working on Firefly, which tragically only had one season. And, you know, we all wish that there was more of it. I love the show. It's – yeah, it's a great show. Anyway, JW, bleh, bleh. Yes. Yeah, forever. Bleh, bleh. I think we've done the damage we came here to do.

[02:19:21] I am very much looking forward to the crossover episode that we'll cover next week. Yes. And I hope we get some great feedback. We've already gotten some pieces of feedback for it. And that's it. That's the complete end of the show. Thank you, everybody, for listening. And until next time, I'm Penny. And I'm Sam. And I'm Kara. Keep slaying!