43: “In the Dark” and “I Fall to Pieces” (Angel S1E3 and E4)

[00:00:00] Hmm? Ah! Oh. I mean, this ring is your redemption, it's what you've been waiting for. No, it just looks like it. Angel Man, think what you're saying. I have. I've thought of it from every angle. What I figure is, I did a lot of damage in my day. More than you can imagine. So what, you don't get the ring because your period of self-flagellation isn't over yet?

[00:00:30] I mean, think of all the daytime people you could help between 9 and 5. They have help. The whole world is designed for them. So much that they have no idea what goes on around them after dark. They don't see the weak ones lost in the night. Or the things that prey on them. And if I join them, maybe I'd stop seeing too.

[00:01:20] Hello everybody. Welcome to Still Slaying, a Buffyverse Podcast. I'm Penny. And I'm Sam. For this episode, we're going to be discussing Angels Season 1, Episode 3, In the Dark, written by Douglas Petrie, David Greenwald, and J.W. And directed by Bruce Seth Green. And Season 1, Episode 4, I Fall to Pieces, written by David Greenwald, Janine Renshaw, and J.W.

[00:01:50] And directed by Vern Gillum. These episodes originally aired on October 19th and 26th of 1999 to audiences of 3.7 million and 3.6 million households, respectively. Some of the alternative titles in other languages for Episode 3 were, in the French, The Gem of Amara, and in German and Italian, The Ring of Amara. Those were kind of disappointing.

[00:02:19] But the titles for Episode 4 were a little more fun. In Czech, it was called Piece by Piece. In Finnish, Puzzle. In French, The Strange Dr. Meltzer. In German, slightly different, The Stitches of Dr. Meltzer. Italian, The Mediumistic Surgeon. Brazilian, Portuguese, I Fall Apart Completely.

[00:02:49] And in Russian, I'm Falling Apart. Which one of those are your favorite? The first person ones cracked me up because the person who's falling apart is the doctor. Is this supposed to be from his point of view? Like, do the Russians and the Brazilians think that he's the main character? I don't know. I know. The first person gets me. Oh my God. It's so ridiculous. I fall apart completely.

[00:03:19] That feels familiar for me for this week. But that just really tickled me. That is a very common feeling that I have had. You may notice we don't have Kara with us this week because she has a big, huge case that she's working on. And so we told her to go ahead and take some time. And we would do this one without her, but she'll be back next time. And we'll miss her, but we will get through. She's here in spirit.

[00:03:49] Exactly. Like human rights. Let's see what was happening in 1999. The number one song in the US was Smooth by Santana featuring Rob Thomas. And the number one song in the UK was Genie in a Bottle by Christina Aguilera. US box office, Fight Club remains number one.

[00:04:19] Double Jeopardy is still in there at number two. And the story of us is hanging strong in number three. I did notice on the billboard charts that Mambo number five is climbing the charts. Oh, wow. Talk about flashback. That song lived in my head for months after it came out. Just months and months. Mambo number five.

[00:04:47] So Kara usually puts together the news and stuff. And I think I was going to different websites than she was. And I got these hilarious New York Post little snippets. So, um, on that night on October 19th, the Mets amazing. They had an amazing, uh, 15 inning game Sunday night scored one of the highest ratings of the year for WNBC channel four New York.

[00:05:13] By the end of the Mets Braves game, about 2.6 million homes were tuned in to see Robin Ventura's grand slam turn single that won the game. The ratings indicated an incredible 55% of everyone watching TV in New York Sunday night was tuned in to the Met Games dramatic ending. I didn't understand most of the words you used in that, but I support it.

[00:05:38] I do like that it was 2.6 million homes and, uh, you know, Angel got 3.6. So, hey. Yeah, we did. We're a part of the curve. And this just seemed weirdly relevant and prophetic that on that day, the New York Post printed, Donald Trump is back in familiar territory on TV. The man who only last month announced he was looking into landing a new job as president of

[00:06:06] the United States was enlisted by CompUSA to hawk their new website in a national television campaign. The site called Cozone.com was launched yesterday in a bid to help the struggling computer chain gain momentum in a market dominated by upstart computer e-tailers. CompUSA CEO James Halpin has been cutting jobs and closing stores as falling PC prices and internet competition led to a drop in profits for five quarters.

[00:06:36] To support the launch of the site, the company has embarked on a multi-million dollar ad campaign including TV, radio and print. The Donald, people don't call him that anymore, thank God. No. The Donald appears in one ad wearing a suit messily attempting to mold clay on a potter's wheel. He eventually gives up bidding $600 for another student's pot. The spot ends with Trump hitting on a young woman washing her hands next to him.

[00:07:05] So, he's a fraud, he uses money instead of skill, and he is inappropriate with young women. It's, nothing's changed. No, not, not at all. I mean, do the powers that be send this? Yeah, exactly. They need to send Angel over to the White House to take care of Trump for us. Yeah, they were like, here, we're going to give you a flash warning, a vision that you need to handle. Oh, that was timely.

[00:07:35] And yes, fair, I will say it again, he is a consistent person. That's true. He's been telling the world who he is for years. Yeah. He is the same person he's always been, and like you said, telegraphed. On October 19th, there was a vote on campaign finances blocked again. For the fourth year, Senate GOP leaders prevented the action.

[00:08:00] Measure was sponsored by John McCain, Republican of Arizona, and Russell Feingold, a Democrat out of Wisconsin, would vote to ban unlimited and unregulated donations to political parties. Wow, that didn't age well. No, it would have been really nice to have that. Yeah, just, just a bit, just a bit. And on October 27th, the agreement revises banking laws.

[00:08:29] Clinton and Republican leaders reach a chord on overhauling financial systems. The pact repeals depression-era laws that prevent banking, securities, and insurance industries from expanding into each other's fields. Oh, and that didn't have any negative impacts like the savings and loan crisis, or the tech bubble bursting,

[00:08:54] or the fall of Lehman Brothers and AIG Insurance, and all the stuff that happened in the early 2000s on Wall Street. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, no problem. Not a problem. None of this aged well 25 years later. It's almost like history has been slowly repeating itself. Yeah, just a little bit like that. It's a little disturbing that we have not come very far in 25 years.

[00:09:25] No, and speaking of setting back the clock. Yeah, let's talk about some, some stalkers, some abuse. Yeah. We decided to cover these two episodes together, because in episode three, there's this small B story of this woman with an abusive boyfriend and Angel is helping her.

[00:09:50] And it's sort of lightly dealt with, and I knew that it was going to, you know, cause us to have a conversation about intimate partner violence and violence against women. And then episode four is like the souped up supernatural version where this woman is being stalked by someone and it's more violence against women. It's more rape culture. And so I was like, let's just get it all in one episode and talk about it all.

[00:10:20] Also, I think episode four is kind of one of the weaker episodes of the season. It is, it's boring. So it doesn't need its whole own podcast. Yeah, yeah. It, it vacillates between extremely upsetting and extremely boring. At least for me. Yeah. And it doesn't have any long term plot importance. Yeah. There's, there's no developments that affect any of the like overarching stories. So it's just not as important of an episode. Yeah, that, that was a great idea.

[00:10:47] And like immediately when you, when you suggested that, I was like, that sounds like a good, that sounds like a good plan. Yeah. It's a good pairing. Um, let's start though with the A plot in episode three, which is of course the return of our beloved Spike. How can I thank you? You mysterious black clad hunk of a night thing. No need little lady. Your tears of gratitude are enough for me.

[00:11:16] You see, I was once a bad ass vampire. But love and a pesky curse defanged me. And now I'm just a big fluffy puppy with bad teeth. No, not the hair. Never the hair. But there must be some way I can show my appreciation. No. Helping those in needs, my job.

[00:11:40] And working up a load of sexual tension and prancing away like a magnificent poof is truly thanks enough. I understand. I have a nephew who's gay, so... Say no more. Evil's still afoot. And I'm almost out of that Nancy boy hair gel I like so much. Quickly, to the angel mobile. Away.

[00:12:02] Play the big strapping hero while you can. You have a few surprises coming your way. A ring of Amara. A visit from your old pal Spike. And oh yeah, your gruesome horrible death.

[00:12:31] I love the music at the end there. It's so dramatic. Oh my gosh. Oh, Spike. One of my favorite scenes out of both series was that scene. And re-watching it again, I can tell I even loved it when it first came out. Because the way I remember that scene is like a core memory.

[00:13:00] And one of the things that stuck out to me during this watch was... Aw, Spike. It's nice to know we never really grow out of talking to ourselves. Yeah. I mean, he's 126 and he's still talking to himself. I'm like, that tracks. Yeah. It's a fun game. I've done this in like restaurants. You like see, you know, two or three people across the room. And they're having some kind of animated conversation. And you're like, all right, he cheated on her.

[00:13:28] And then she's staying with him for the kids, but he's gonna pay. Like, you know, you just... Yes. Sometimes you can just see a story, whether it's real or not. Yes. Yeah, yeah. And making it up and then it's like... And he... And, you know, she cheated on him. With his dad. Dun, dun, dun. And then for Spike to do the voices and like... Oh my gosh. And, you know, he just... That's so funny.

[00:13:58] The sort of chemistry of hate, grudging respect, absolute disgust that exists between Spike and Angel is one of my favorite things about this whole universe. They're so family. Yeah. They're so family. They hate each other. Yeah. And they just keep being thrown together and having to deal with each other. And it's comic gold. It really is. It's one...

[00:14:26] Yeah, like you said, like, it's one of my favorite aspects of the series. And it's just... I just love it. It's so, so funny. And I do like... I think there was like an older episode where we... Or you... Maybe it was you and Kara. I can't remember. My brain's a little fried at this point. So there is mention that Angel and Spike did have a hookup in the past. Which tracks? Yeah, there's a reference to it. Yeah, where he says like...

[00:14:54] It's in later seasons. But like... He says like, yeah, Angel and I weren't together except for that one time. And it's like, yeah. Yeah. The world and all hung out. Yeah. Darla and Angel and Drusilla and Spike like traveled around the world vampiring together. And I'm pretty sure there was a lot of trading of partners and sex shenanigans that went on during that time.

[00:15:23] They're all so pretty. Yeah. Like... It's... It's... Yeah, how would they not? Like, just one night be like, let's try it. Who knows? Why not? We don't have souls. Like, let's have a good time. Yeah. There's no consequences to this. So like, yeah. And there's no... The evening after, I guess, rather than the morning. Yeah. So... They're so funny. Yeah, it's such a great thing. You know, this was a time when there weren't a lot of openly queer characters.

[00:15:53] So having little bits of Easter eggs for the queer community was such a boon. It was something people really held on to. Like, oh, that's queer coded. Or, oh, they're acting like exes more than they are like enemies. Like, it's... Yeah. Old married couple. It's really... There's... I mean, we could talk about it more in spoilers, but there is so much good Spike and Angel stuff to come in the future. Yes. Pretty much so.

[00:16:22] Their tension kind of reminds me of Faith and Buffy. Yeah. Just... Faith and Buffy are more intense and serious, and Spike and Angel are maybe what Buffy and Faith would be like around each other if they still didn't like each other a hundred years from now. Yeah. Like, just a similar familiarity in there. Yeah. Spike in this episode is extremely evil, though. Oh my goodness.

[00:16:51] Like, as much as we love to talk about how much we love him and how entertaining he is, that love is from the whole series. Yes. And in these early seasons, I mean, he hired a torturer who's into kids, and he torments Angel with it, and he's enjoying it, and he's impatient, like, torture him faster, and he's just scary and evil at this point. Yes.

[00:17:18] The funny is sprinkled in there, but in a few episodes, he's gonna start getting a lot funnier. Yes. Yes. And Buffy. Yeah. No, he was super dark. I think I had text you and Kara and Jim of when I was first rewatching this, I'm like, jeez, I forgot that the torturer was a pedophile, too. Yeah. He just sort of throws that line in, and he's like, and other dirty things with kids. I'm like, ew.

[00:17:48] It's so gross. It's so disgusting. It's so disgusting. Marcus is so creepy with his, like, buttoned all the way up shirt and his little glasses and his prim and properness and the way that he, and this is such a trope, right? Yes. The way he takes his torture instruments out and they're lovingly organized, and he, like, lays them out on the table. That happens in so many TV shows where they're like, look at my instruments of torture. Aren't they beautiful and shiny and clean? Yes. Like, it's so creepy.

[00:18:18] But it works. I mean, he takes pride in his work, Penny. Yeah. He really does. And he's all patient about it, which I think is scarier, right? Yes. The way he's like, oh, let me first look at his skin and talk to him a little bit, and then I'll just, you know, I'll just ease into it. Yeah. I realized while I was watching that scene the first time that I've seen David Boreanaz get tortured a lot. Like, a lot. That's a good point. I had thought about that. Shirtless tortured. Yeah.

[00:18:47] He gets tortured on Buffy, he gets tortured on Angel a bunch of times, and he gets tortured on Bones a bunch of times. Oh, that's right. Booth does get tortured a bunch. Yeah. And then I haven't watched his Navy SEAL show, but I'd be shocked if he doesn't get tortured in that show too. I watched a few seasons of it. He definitely gets injured. And there's definitely emotional torture in there.

[00:19:10] It's a little bit different because it's, it's Paramount and they love just sort of like classic, you know, tough guy. I would say a lot of the characters on Paramount do a lot of stoicism. Mm-hmm. Like, as someone who like, I loved the new Hawaii Five-0 and I watched the SEALs one for a while too. Very, they're interesting, obviously.

[00:19:38] Very kind of one dimensional at times. Like, they bounce back really fast when they've been shot or stabbed. No one bounces back faster than, um, what's his name on 24? Jack. What's his name? Jack? No. Jack Bauer. He, there's one season where they literally drill, they take a, like a drill and they drill into his, like down into his shoulder, like vertically down.

[00:20:05] And then he like puts on a clean shirt and he's fine. I remember that. I'm just like, what? Yeah, no, it's wild. It is wild. That is not how the body works. Um, it's also not how torture works. So torture is something that shows up in a lot of TV and movies. It's dramatic. It makes for compelling visual storytelling, right? Yes. There's so many ways you can make it scary.

[00:20:34] You have closeups on the, the gore closeups on the instrument. You show the faces with the emotions. There's always, it's always a dark, dank room where somebody is hanging from the ceiling or tied to a table. Yeah. And it makes great TV. I get it. In real life, there have been lots of studies done that torture does not result in good intelligence. It results in false confessions.

[00:21:03] It results in people telling you whatever they think you want to hear. Yep. And it also completely destroys any ability to recruit a prisoner to your side. Yep. To be like, you know, your old team didn't treat you very well, but here's a, you know, we'll treat you better if you just tell us where the bomb is or whatever. Yep. Won't work if you've tortured the person. Nope. Nope. Not at all.

[00:21:28] One of my, like, one of my favorite episodes of Criminal Minds is I believe it was in the first or second season with Gideon. Have you ever watched Criminal Minds? Mm-mm. It's a really intense show. Um, but it's about criminal profilers and it's looking back on it. It's definitely an episode of its time. It's very politically offensive. Mm-hmm. Um, and it, the episode in the beginning is with Gideon.

[00:21:55] So it's, you know, that, that wonderful Mandy Patankin. Um, and he's a criminal profiler attempting to use psychology to interrogate, uh, um, essentially someone from Gitmo, uh, Guantanamo Bay. So a Middle Eastern person who reportedly had ties to, to, um, terrorists that were targeting an American site. And in that episode, like he says, like, you can't physically torture this person.

[00:22:23] He will just give you, he'll tell you whatever you want to hear, but there's no guarantee that it's the truth. And then he goes on to use psychological manipulation in a really clever way where, you know, essentially it's just, he speeds up the time. Mm-hmm. By using prayers, by using different things, cause there's no light or anything in the interrogation room. And so he gets the guy to confess where the location is by, but they got by the guy thinking it's already happened. Oh, clever. So like no one will be able to go into a mall at any time.

[00:22:51] And it was just, it was really smart, but they never laid a hand on, on, on this prisoner. And that's how they, they got that truth. And it's also it's Hollywood magic. Um, but at the end of the episode, the other FBI profiler goes like, how did you know you'd have to trick him? And he said, I knew the moment I stepped in, like, that's the way to do it. Um, so like, you know, it's very inappropriate now, obviously it plays on a lot of stereotypes, but it, that's true.

[00:23:20] Like Stockholm syndrome, I think is another one that comes up that comes from your captor being nice to you. Yeah. And taking care of your needs, not by torturing you. And even then that's an unhealthy attachment that actually forms really quickly. It makes the person psychologically unknowable and unpredictable. Yeah.

[00:23:42] And I also just, I mean, I'm so glad that studies have shown that torture doesn't work and that, you know, the CIA has come out with a report that says torture doesn't work, doesn't stop them from doing it. But, um, get Mo, um, Abu Ghraib. There's a lot of incidences of the U.S. torturing, let alone other countries. Mm-hmm.

[00:24:07] And, um, I think that it's not only sort of evil in terms of the effect it has on the person or the population that's being tortured, but it's so dehumanizing to the person who is committing the acts. Yep. That, and I feel like as a taxpayer, as a citizen, by extension, it's dehumanizing of all of us.

[00:24:35] To have a government represent us that is willing to torture. I, I, I absolutely concur. It's like, at what point are we no longer the good guys? Like, what, what, like, there has to be a line in the sand that we're the good guys that we're supposed to win. And if it's win at any cost, I think it falls into that, that saying of, I think it was in Frankenstein, of like, when you're hunting the monster, make sure you don't become it. Yeah.

[00:25:02] And so, like, there's gotta be lines in the sand, otherwise we're no better than the people who are hurting other people. And, you know, it's, it's an interesting thing, um, to see, like, you know, force, I think, is just, anger makes us feel productive, force makes us feel productive, but it's really not? I mean. It's counterproductive, yeah. Yeah, like, you know, anger to defend yourself, yes, that, that is useful.

[00:25:33] There's so many other ways to work with stuff and, and, and to navigate that. Yeah, it's, it ends up crossing a line. And Penny, when you were describing it, it made me, it reminded me of another TV show. Um, I think it was Law & Order SVU. It was probably SVU, because I remember the character of Dr. George Wong. Oh, I love him. Yeah, he's so good. It was the episode where they looked into the survivors of political torture that the U.S.

[00:26:01] was doing to political refugees. And he was going to the centers and, and you just see not just the emotional devastation of these poor people, but also, like, the physical ones. They had permanently, like, just damaged shoulders from being hyped up. I mean, in this, this episode, Angel's a vampire. He can re, he can heal and move forward like it's nothing. Um, yeah.

[00:26:27] But real people, like, people think waterboarding is more humane, like, apparently drowning is better or whatever. No, like, it causes lung infections, permanent lung infections, and permanent lung tissue damage. And that's not even including the psychological stuff. But I remember that episode was ripped from the headlines about, like, this isn't, there's no such thing as humane torture. That's not a thing.

[00:26:49] Um, so it's, it's really, you know, a disturbing part of humanity that we continue to bring up, like, to continue to have in our society. Yeah. And there are people who just are so dedicated to the idea that it works, that they will not hear evidence. They will not listen. They are determined that torture is somehow efficient and important and justified.

[00:27:16] And it, I've, it's ended friendships for me. The, the, you know, the things that came out during, um, the second Gulf War, during, around the time, like, after this show was airing, were really disturbing and caused a lot of arguments and debates and fallout in my social circles at the time. Yeah. And, you know, if somebody's pro-torture, I'm happy to have them not be in my life anymore.

[00:27:44] But the process of finding out that people are pro-torture is pretty upsetting. Yeah. Like, cause it, it does, it, it reminds me of, like, people who really support the death penalty. Yeah.

[00:27:57] And it's, it's like this emotional pull towards an idea of justice and right, and righteousness where, like, yeah, but if you actually look at facts and statistics and use the logic part of your brain, like, innocent people have been put to death. Innocent people have been tortured. Um, and it's like, yeah, no, that's, that's not what I'm about. And they're like, well, it prevents crime. Not done.

[00:28:27] Cause we still have crime. Yeah. It does not. There's so. What? I mean, I could get, I could go on about the death penalty forever, but there's so much evidence that it doesn't prevent crime, that it doesn't. That it's costs more money, that it's used incorrectly, that it's racially disproportionate. 100%. 100%. And that there are so many flaws in the system that allow all these injustices to happen.

[00:28:56] I, I've always been anti-death penalty because I just think that killing should be reserved for when you absolutely have no other option. In defense of your life or someone else's. If you've imprisoned someone, you're done. And, you know, families of like murder victims have said, and it's not true across the board, but that the person being executed does not help with their emotional recovery. It doesn't make them feel better.

[00:29:26] It doesn't bring them a sense of justice or closure. And it's just violence done in the name of the state for no good reason. And it makes me so angry. It's yeah. Like, and, and that's a great point of like, this stuff doesn't fix anything. And, and it's, it's an illusion that people think it does. And, you know, that's, that's the justification for torture, right? Like we need to prevent this stuff from happening.

[00:29:53] I'm, I'm mindful that there's probably things happening that I have no idea about. And they've prevented a lot of stuff. Absolutely. I have a hard time believing torture is the only way to do it. And also we're a global community. Maybe there's other ways to, to, to do this. But yes, it's, that's not healing. And it is disproportionate.

[00:30:17] Also, I'm, I'm a petty toenails person. Um, if someone hurts someone or kills someone in my family, I want them to suffer in jail forever. Like, yeah. Why do they get a quick out? You're not in charge of deciding what happens to that person. Because. Like go and live as an animal in a cage then. What do you mean you get a quick out? Um, you know, like that, that's, that, that's been my opinion too.

[00:30:47] Cause like, Hey, cause they're like, well, what if someone in your family is murdered? Then I don't want them to get a quick out. Also like just an icky side factor for people who are pro torture and death penalty, um, which death penalty could be seen as the ultimate, um, torture. Yeah. Um, is that, uh, medical doctors often refuse to be in charge of that. So no one with a medical degree is in charge of the executions, which makes sense. It goes against medical ethics. Yeah. And psychological ethics. Mm-hmm.

[00:31:16] That do no harm. So they frequently have people who have no medical expertise doing these executions. So that's horrific. Yeah. Um, and just, you know, it, it offends me as a person as does torture. Yeah. Not a fan, uh, at all. No. Uh, there was a Senate committee in the sort of 2009, uh, 2010 timeframe that, uh, investigated

[00:31:43] all of this Guantanamo Bay waterboarding, all the stuff that was happening under George W. Bush. Mm-hmm. And they said that, um, claims of useful information being extracted from suspects that underwent enhanced interrogation, which is what they were calling it at the time, concluded that the critical and valuable information was not obtained using these methods. Mm-hmm.

[00:32:08] The 6,700 page Senate Intelligence Committee report on CIA torture, which we'll link in the show notes, also concluded that the CIA had repeatedly and deliberately impeded oversight and misrepresented the effectiveness of torture as an interrogation technique to policymakers and to the public through coordinated leaking of false information. Yep. And I'm going to add in there, as a psychologist, it was big news in our grad school when it

[00:32:36] was leaked out that, uh, clinical psychologists were involved in assisting in the psychological torture of these prisoners. Um, there was only two, I believe. Yeah, it goes against our codes. Like, I get it. If the government tells you to do it, you don't have a choice. But, like, I mean, it's really, I mean, I remember people being in tears in our class when we were discussing it because that's just not what you go into this profession to do.

[00:33:03] Um, and the very idea that our skills were being used to hurt people very much is, like, that's just very unsettling. Um, but yeah, like, that it's just not effective. So, you know, remains curious of, like, why do we still do it? Um, yeah, no, it's, I'm not effective. And I actually saw, uh, the person Zimbardo. I actually, um, saw Dr. Zimbardo speak at my undergrad school.

[00:33:33] Um, obviously before his death. Uh, we didn't use a Ouija board. But, like, um, really highly paid medium. Yeah. Um, but he, he presented on what it did to the soldiers of Guantanamo Bay. Because it was very similar to his, you know, his experiment that he learned from of just how easy it is to dehumanize other humans and what that does to you as a person.

[00:34:00] And he was a part of those investigations of how our poor soldiers, like, were just, like, really psychologically damaged in the line of duty and encouraged to do so. I mean, they did horrific things to those poor prisoners. And that changes you as a person forever. Um, you know, everything from assault to humiliation to, I mean, when you dehumanize a group of people

[00:34:29] like that, there's, there's no coming back from it. So he was sharing just, you know, the collateral damage was these soldiers who did this. Um, and, you know, how, like, say, hey, guess what? After they leave Guantanamo Bay, they come back to live here. Yeah. So, like, you know, these people who try to go about and have a life and their family and friends and their kids, it's like, yeah, this isn't, this isn't who went in onto duty to do that. So no one wins.

[00:34:59] We didn't get the information and everyone suffered. It's, yeah, it's, it's evil. And it's, it's inexplicable to me the way that people will defend it. And, you know, there was that famous memo that somebody in the Department of Justice wrote about, you know, enhanced interrogation techniques are legal. And at the time, you know, I was early in my legal career and I was like, how could this lawyer write this?

[00:35:27] And then I, you know, I met a lot of lawyers and I was like, oh, there's so many of them that would have written this. There's just a whole lot of lawyers who are like, if my boss is going in one direction and pays me, that's the direction I'll go. Like, I am not that person. I have to always be true to my, my morals and values. And it's, you know, it has definitely prevented me from some career opportunities and I'm okay with that.

[00:35:58] Yeah. There are definitely things I was like, I'm not doing that for any amount of money. Like, no. Yeah. Yeah. You have to be able to sleep at night and live with yourself. Exactly. But. It makes for interesting TV. I totally get it. There's torture in so many TV shows that I love. Walking Dead has a bunch of different torture scenes. Yeah, they do. Some by the good guys, some by the bad guys.

[00:36:28] And there is a little bit of debate in season two, like, is torture something we should be doing? It shifts very quickly to is murder something we should be doing. And even that. Yeah. I mean, it's the apocalypse. I can see, like, you know, if you don't have an organized society, things can get a little crazy. The calculation of necessity is very different in those circumstances. A hundred percent.

[00:36:53] There was also torture in Firefly, another JW show. Oh, yeah. And the torturer in that case was all, oh, the pain lets me see the truth of you. I get to the real person. And that was Marcus's thing in this, too. So that's like a JW trope. Yikes. That's a little haunting. Everything we know about him.

[00:37:20] It's a belief that a lot of people have, that, like, if somebody is in extreme duress, whether that's, like, pain or fear, that their true self will come out. And I just don't believe that's true. It's not accurate. When you're in extreme duress, there's only part of your personality that can even function. Right? Exactly. It's your fight or flight instincts. It's all emotion based. You're, you're, yeah, no, that's, that's not your truest self.

[00:37:48] I would say that's your animal self. Right? Yeah. It's like the amygdala. Yeah. It's like you just regress someone back a couple hundred thousand years. But that doesn't mean that that's their true selves. Yeah. Especially if you're trying to get information from them. Like, that's the wrong part of the brain. It's a, it's another trope I've seen in a lot of sort of sci-fi shows. Like, I feel like this happened in Alias, too, was, like, the, the torturer being, like, weirdly philosophical and poetic about it.

[00:38:17] And, like, listening to classical music and dressing very primly, like Marcus did, is all part of this TV version of the torturer as this, like, detached, philosophical, like, inquisitive, like, I'm just trying to study the human condition character. And, uh, I don't know, is it glorifying the torturer? It kind of is. It's, it's, it's a weird trope. Like. It very much is, yeah.

[00:38:46] At least on Walking Dead they didn't do that. They had, like, Daryl go in and just, like, punch the guy with his, like, hillbilly accent. And, um, they didn't pretend it was, like, some effete, educated hobby. Yeah. Yeah. And, like, for them, it's, like, I mean, I don't know. Like, I'm, I'm with you. Like, you know, it's, for me, when I look at shows like The Walking Dead, that is a different thing than what we're living in now. Yeah. Like, that is, I think, um, the movie The Mist talks a lot about it, which, you know, Frank

[00:39:16] Darabont, who originally started the TV show The Walking Dead and stuff like that. Um, yeah, like, in, there's a quote in that movie that has always stuck with me where it's, uh, where one of the characters says, yeah, you put more than two humans in a room and we're going to go at each other and pick sides. When, and when you take away someone's ability to dial 911 to get help, people start getting crazy really quickly.

[00:39:45] And it's, like, that is true. Yeah. Like, losing. Very organized right now. Losing civilization, being outside of society's rules, you don't know which way people are going to break. It's one of the reasons why I love Walking Dead, is watching people either come into their own or completely fall apart. And it's fascinating. And I, you know, I don't know if that's how, if any of those things is how I would react to the apocalypse.

[00:40:14] I'm pretty sure I'm going to be an early death, so we'll never find out. But, um, I mean, I live in Boston. If it's a, if it's a nuclear attack, like, I'm gone. Um, yeah. Like, the eastern seaboard will entirely be destroyed by any enemy. So, you know, I'm okay with it. I've come to accept it. Although, in The Last of Us, Boston was okay. Yeah. That was a mushroom virus, so. Yeah.

[00:40:41] Talk about haunting stuff, about society going away. Yeah. Those cold opens. Yeah. To do more. Season two is coming out. That's an amazing show. I was a guest on the Cast of Us podcast, um, last week for an episode about the deadly flu virus that rips through the prison. And I don't know why, but we got onto the topic of, like, killing people in the apocalypse and when is it okay and when is it not okay?

[00:41:07] And I was like, oh, you know, I, I don't think you should kill people unless you absolutely have to. And I was like, oh, cannibals. I, I'm fine. Open season on cannibals. And so many people have texted me and been like, okay, so you're okay with killing cannibals? And I'm like, yeah. Yeah. I'm good with that. Fine with that. Yeah. I mean, it's, you know, it's, it, all it takes is, is a, is an empty tummy. And then, you know, then you're on the menu.

[00:41:33] Uh, you know, I, yeah, that's, that's such a tough thing. Cause it's like, it's where we are now. And I gotta say in the apocalypse, even from what I've seen, if you ain't in my group, I might actually have to kill you. Cause it never seems to end really well. Like nine times out of 10, it ends poorly. That also includes when our main group goes to new places. Yeah. Our main group is not without their own flaws. That's for sure.

[00:42:03] They're like the execution squad. They're agents of chaos. Yes, they are very much proof that you don't trust, don't trust strangers is in the apocalypse. Yeah. And I, I, I was, it, it sort of like, it, it made me laugh. I don't know why, but my brain kind of like circled back around how spike got angel knocked out to be taken to the executioner.

[00:42:32] That was, that seemed like, like I had to suspend my disbelief for a second. Like it was such an obvious trap. Yeah. Yeah. And it was just like, I was very disappointed in angel. Yeah. Right. Like you're not going to kick him head on him. Now you're just like, all right. Like, I don't know. I've been suspicious when spike runs into that alley. Right. And he comes to the chain link fence and he's like, Oh, I guess I'm caught. He's a vampire. He could just leap over that fence.

[00:43:01] And when he doesn't, angel should have been like, Oh no. Yeah. Oh no. Something's up. And like, am I standing on a net? Like what is happening? Yeah. So it's like a looney tunes. And like, he knows that spike isn't that dumb. You know what I mean? Like he, yeah, he knows. And he fell for it. Yeah. And it's like, you already know spikes falling around. The only thing that kind of pops into my head is angel wanted to just get this over with

[00:43:28] because he knew spike was going to go after Cordy and Doyle. Yeah. So like maybe, but I mean, if that was what happened, he, it wasn't telegraphed, but yeah, like just when the executioner grabbed him, I'm like, sir, you are like so much older than him, but like, okay. Okay. But yeah. The episode had a lot of like fun moments too, right? Just having Oz on the show is great. Oz got to be really cool. I love how everyone loves Oz.

[00:43:58] Every, every moment he's on screen. He's, he's so Oz and it's so delightful. Like the way he and Cordelia catch up and she's like, Oh, we have so much to talk about. And it's like two sentences. And then he's like, are we done? And she goes completely. And it was completely. I love it. And I love how everyone loves Oz. I'm sure even spike liked Oz. I saw, I saw the exchange. Yeah. There is coolness there that is undeniable and everyone responds to it.

[00:44:28] It is so great. And he and Angel are like, sup, sup, sup. Like we understand each other. We're men of few words. Like they, they've always had a, the two of them have always had an understanding, which is really adorable. And, um, and then the fact that Doyle was like calling him apparently little Bam Bam at the pub. And I, I kind of wish that we could have seen that scene. Like it seems really hilarious. That's amazing. Oh my gosh.

[00:44:58] But yeah, Oz got to save the day with the like van and the dramatic entrance and the two crossbows. Like, yeah. Right? That was cool. Like I legit forgot about that when I was rewatching him. Like, how is he going to get out of this? Me too. I said out loud, how are they going to get him out of this? Cause they were like, I also forgot like the, the part where like, like Spike us interrupt

[00:45:24] us when like Angel goes to like, like, you know, slay the executioner. Um, and then Spike stops him. And I was like, damn it, Spike. And then when Angel's like, Angel's so great, right? He's like, Spike, you really think this guy's going to let you have the ring? And Spike's like, he doesn't care about the ring. And I'm like, you're an idiot, Spike. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like you are way over.

[00:45:50] Cause I, so there is something to that where both Spike and Angel get their obsession with each other gets in the way of their typical planning and behaviors. Yeah. Like it just sort of throws them in a way that other characters don't to them. And they, there is, there are parts of it. Like I'm thinking back to Buffy season three episode where he's just being wild about it.

[00:46:20] And this is not the calculating person who went after the Slayer on parents night and was very coordinated and got the cinder of death thing. The, um, the, the judge. Oh yeah. The, the, the judge. Oh right. The whole big thing with an arm in a box. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Like the thing with the arm in the box.

[00:46:47] Like he's usually, Spike's usually pretty planned out, but yeah, that goes out of the window with these two. Spike always has minions. Like he wanted to torture Angel so badly. Yeah. He loves having a minion. He's like. He does. I'm like, how did you get this minion in Los Angeles so fast? But you know, he did. He's got a minion. Like he's probably just, you know, cashing in on that, on the, being part of the whirlwind and being like, you know me, Spike the Bloody. Yeah. And they're all like, ooh, Spike. Which he stands for.

[00:47:17] Yeah. But yeah, no, he, he recruited that minion because the minion wanted the ring of Amara. Yeah. That guy's not dumb. He sees like something that's extremely powerful. He takes it. Like. Yeah. He's a bad guy. That's what bad guys do. Right. Like it's like just wanted to torture Angel to get the ring of Amara. And like, he didn't think this, this far out. Yeah. Which also speaking of the ring of Amara, that is a really easy thing to take off your enemy. Yeah.

[00:47:47] I know. I'm like, put that on and then put super glue. That's a good point. Around the seal. Like. That's a good point. And does it have to be on your finger? Could you put it like on your toe and then put your boots on over it? Like. Ooh, I like that. Yeah. There's gotta be a way to like not have it just on your finger. So easy to take off. Also very convenient that everyone's fingers are the same sizes. Oh, that's great. That is great.

[00:48:15] That it'll fit harmony. It'll fit spike. It'll fit Angel. They all ring fits. Everybody were no problem. Sisterhood of the traveling ring. Exactly. It just magically goes and fits everyone. But yeah, I was like that ring is just really easy to take off of people. Yeah. That's not that powerful if you can just lose it and then get.

[00:48:43] I love that he was staked already and then Angel took the ring off of him and then the stake took effect. That was such a great. And the whole fight under the pier was really fun with the like. Like there are soaking wet and the shadow and the sun right outside the shadow. And like. Yes. That was some high drama. A little bit of suspension of disbelief of. Yeah. There was a little bit. I mean, we're watching a show about vampires. So I think I have to let a lot of it go. But it's like the movie Underworld did this too.

[00:49:13] Underneath the pier is getting reflections of sunlight off the water. The sunlight rules in Buffy are sort of. They're sort of light, right? Like how many times has Spike been in the sun and like thrown his coat over his head? And been okay. You know, like. That is true. They play fast and loose with the sunlight on the show. That is very true. So. Yeah. Speaking of the Ring of Amara. Mm-hmm.

[00:49:41] I was thinking about this when I was watching this two-part storyline. What would you do if you had the Ring of Amara? If I were a vampire? If you were you. If I. Oh, if I was me right now. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And it worked on you to make you invincible. Oh. To make me invincible. Yeah. Oh, that'd be fun. Would it also give me the energy to do stuff while I was invincible? That would be nice.

[00:50:09] It would probably restore your energy. Very quickly, right? Yeah. Yeah. I think I would get in the way of some bad behavior. I think I'd start like, you know, patrolling the streets at night and getting in the way of people doing bad stuff. I think that would be great. What would be your vigilante name? Um. Oh, God. I've never thought of that before. I know. I'm putting you on the spot. Um.

[00:50:39] I do know that my vigilante costume would include purple. Ooh. Yes. Your signature color. Yeah. And, uh. Maybe cat ears. Maybe something cat related. Ooh. Um. I like it. Cat woman's already taken. Cat woman. I know. And I'm not putting on a skin tight leather outfit, but maybe something, something, uh. More. Plausible.

[00:51:08] The paw of justice or something. Oh. I love it. To leave little paw prints at the, at the scene. Yes. Your signature. Yeah. The paw. The purple paw print. The paw of justice. Yeah. I love it. And they, they, they, they call you justice for short. Yeah. It's justice. How about you? What would you do with it? The paw of justice. The paw of justice is too cool. Oh. Um. Um. Like, ah, can't compete with the paw of justice. Um.

[00:51:35] I, like, cause when I was watching the episode, I was like, what would I do with that ring if it worked on humans? Yeah. And, and made me invincible to harm. Similar. I would probably, like, Jessica Jones it. Yeah. And, and, and open up, or, like, I guess, you know, Daredevil too. But I would open up a private detective agency similar to Angel. Mm-hmm. Um, and, you know, more Jessica Jones it, cause she's, you know, in, in, you know, impossible to harm. Um, right? She's, well, she's hard to harm. But, like, not impossible. Yeah, she has. Super strength. Super strength.

[00:52:03] I don't know exactly what her powers are. If she has, like. Super strength. Super healing. Yeah. But she certainly seems pretty indestructible. Yeah, she's pretty hardy. Mostly she hurts herself. Yeah. And it doesn't work on the, on the psychological stuff. Yeah. But, um, yeah. I would kind of, uh, Jessica Jones it. Angel Investigations it. I'd start a private detective agency. Um, and then that way people could come to me.

[00:52:32] I could go out on my own. And, um, yeah. I definitely would never want to be regulated by the government though. Yeah. So in. And then the Avengers called it. Yeah. Yeah. In Captain America Civil War, you were Team Cap? Me too. Mm-hmm. He called it. I don't trust the government. Yeah. Yeah. He's like, we just found out how many Hydra agents there are in the government. Were you not listening? Like. Exactly. And they're not completely gone. Remember?

[00:53:03] Oh, the time when Nazis were seen as evil and defeated. And, and they, they did come back. Yeah. They sure did. Yep. Chop off the head and you get another head. Yeah. Exactly. That is one of my future favorite Angel episodes. Oh, the Nazi one. The Nazi submarine one. Yeah. That's a good one. Oh, I love it so much. I, yeah. When I remember when I first watched it, I didn't, but I remember on a rewatch a couple

[00:53:32] of years back, just all the nuance in it. But like, I, you know, I, I appreciate everything about it and that storyline, but we're a while away from it. Yeah. So, yeah. So I would do that. My name though. Um, I didn't think about my name. I sprung that in because I was like, I was curious. I'm like, what would your name be, Penny? Yeah. Um, the Paw of Justice is great. Um, yeah. Probably call it Loki Investigations. Oh, nice. Chaos.

[00:54:00] Um, maybe just chaos theory. That's a great name. Are you kidding? I'd be terrified of chaos theory. I'd be like, oh, no. Oh, no. That'd be great. So she's either an agent of chaos or a super mathematician. Either way. I'm afraid. If you ever meet me, you'll know exactly which one it is. Like, that just reminds me of one of my supervisors a very long time ago when I first

[00:54:30] started out. She was like, she was just laughing and she was like, you would be the perfect person to go and commit crimes because no one would ever think it was you. Yeah. And I was like, what? I have to be able to sleep at night. Also, if the crime involved not laughing for an extended period of time, I don't think you could do it. That's not possible. Like, you'd be like all stealthy trying to like, you know, steal the jewels from a museum or whatever and be like, ha ha ha ha ha. And they'd be like, it's Sam.

[00:55:00] I would. I'd have like a funny thought. I'd be like, hee hee hee. My, my, that would be like in the police station. They have people line up, but instead of visuals, they have to do a giggle. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, that's, um, if you want to see me not laugh or giggle for a while, see me at work. Yeah. Nothing funny about the work that you do. No, no. I'm very, very kind of stoic in that hostile environment. Uh, my, my patients are wonderful.

[00:55:29] We actually, yeah, we, we giggle a little bit. Um, mostly cause I use humor, but, but yeah, no, I think that, that would be a chaos theory. Chaos theory was here. And then they'd be like, this toenail can't, can't be chaos theory. It's like, aww. Aw. I would have to learn how to throw a punch. Yeah. Which I have not done. Um, do you think Angel made the right decision to destroy the ring?

[00:55:57] Um, I think he made the emo decision to destroy the ring. I mean, I think, I think he just really likes that aesthetic. I mean, he is, he is full on emo. Yeah. You got a real addiction to the brooding part of life. Anyone ever tell you that? I narratively, I guess if I was on his team, I would bring up maybe have it in safekeeping

[00:56:26] in the eventuality that you need to go out in the daylight to save someone. In the eventuality. I get it. He is right. I think for me, when he said like, they have people during the day to save them. I'm there at night when people forget about them at night. And the, I can see that happening. He is right with that. He also doesn't just fight vampires. So like demons can come out in the daytime and, you know, I'm pretty sure there are some

[00:56:54] episodes where he needed to be out in the daytime. Yeah. Um, and so like that could have been useful to have in the future as a backup. Yeah. I understood what he was saying. But I guess maybe you had to worry about life. Other vampires would show up. If I spend too much time in the sun, I'll forget about those people. I won't pay attention to them as much. And I also think that, you know, he has that conversation with Doyle where Doyle is like, this is redemption. And he's like, no, it's not. No. Redemption is earned.

[00:57:24] It's not something that like falls out of the sky and makes your life better. That's not redemption. That is a, that is a windfall. And, and I don't know about destroying it. I think there probably was some way to secure it and hide it. It seems like such a wildly valuable thing, but I understand the choice to destroy it. Yeah. He was like, I don't want to risk it. You know, someone like Spike or this Marcus guy getting their hands on it.

[00:57:53] I don't want to have to be always worried about protecting its location. That's true. I, you know, I don't want anyone to use it. Like, I'm just going to destroy it. But it, it is kind of like, oh my God, that's like thousands of years. Okay. It's cool. Yeah. Like, I mean, he is the only vampire we would ever want to have it. And it would be nice if the only sold vampire was invincible to harm since he's fighting for the good guys.

[00:58:22] And as one of the few people who can actually go toe to toe with demons and monsters and vampires would be nice to make him immortal in there. But yeah, I, like you were, you were saying good points, Penny. I'm like, yeah, then he'd have to make sure he's like, he would have to make sure he's protecting it. And that would eventually, especially narratively fall in the wrong hands. Yeah. I mean, it's so easy to slip off someone's finger, even if they are all the right size.

[00:58:47] So, um, it eventually would cause problems unless he figured out my idea of super gluing it to himself. Right. And I mean, you know, he doesn't, well, he does sweat, but like, I don't think his skin flakes off. Like, I don't think that would be much of a problem except, you know, him and his, you know, addictive personality. He would probably keep it on all the time. Yeah. Although he's doing a good job not drinking human blood. So who knows?

[00:59:12] Um, I did think in the torture scene, it was really funny because he, his, he was like heaving. His breath was really labored and I was like, vampires don't breathe. And it, it jumped out at me because I very recently, uh, watched a couple of the Twilight movies. And there's a scene in the second one where Edward is being like held by these other vampires. Oh yeah! And he's got no shirt on. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:59:40] And, and his shirt is, it's, it's so, it's like attractively unbuttoned and like flowing. And he's, he's got like perfect carved abs and he is breathing really heavily. The way that you would, if you were a human being being held by two vampires. And I'm like that, that is, um, he's, vampires don't breathe. And, uh, I mean, it's very like, it makes us all look at his perfect abs, but like, and

[01:00:08] then when Angel was breathing, like the next day I watched that episode and I was like, here's another vampire. Just like, Yes. It seems like even us humans don't do it that much, let alone immortals. Um, yeah. Like, and like, that is such a good point. It was very funny to watch. It's like, is this sort of like mental stealing of yourself? Cause you don't need to breathe. Speaking of which, I did appreciate that.

[01:00:35] Although fit, um, David Boreanaz did not have the stereotypical Marvel six pack, which is ridiculous for any human to ever achieve. Oh my God. The things that those guys go through for the shirtless scenes, like they have to get severely dehydrated. Yeah. And then like, they're so weak that like the second they're done filming it, they've practically faint and then they can like finally drink water again.

[01:01:05] It's ridiculous. No, it's, it's ridiculous. And also someone who looks like that is not eating carbs. So yeah, I have nothing to talk about. Like, I'll go eat dinner and you can drink your water and green juice or something like, uh, it's not my personal taste. No, it's not mine either. I can look at a, at like a Chris Hemsworth and I can understand why that is beautiful.

[01:01:29] And I, I see that he has a very, you know, gorgeous jacked up body, but personally, it's not what I am attracted to. Shame. Like, uh. You want something to cuddle with. That's not cuddle. Something a little more realistic. I actually tend to like really skinny guys. Like really, really skinny. I like it. I like the, I am, I'm a big fan of the dad bod. I'm a big fan of it. It's more cuddly. Yeah. I want more cuddles. Yeah, exactly.

[01:01:57] Like the, the, I've, I've dated guys that are like gym buffs and boy, it did not last long. Um, and like, you know, but it's not cuddly. No. It's like, ouch. Yeah, exactly. I, it's like. I think David Boreanaz is plenty built in the scene and does not need the washboard abs. He looks great. No, no, I, this was more attractive to me than the, the washboard abs and everything of like,

[01:02:24] I liked, you know, normal looking people. Yeah. Those bodies, the Jason Momoa's and the Chris Hemsworth's, those bodies are a male fantasy. Not for, it's not a fantasy for most women. It's a power fantasy for men. They want to look like this big, huge, strong superhero. And yeah. And it's like, it's attractive, but it's like, so like, that's not what we're looking for. Yeah. And cause we look at the lifestyles that probably come with that too. Yeah.

[01:02:53] Like, oh, you go to the gym for nine hours a day. That sounds great. Yeah. Oh no. I dated a bodybuilder, not for very long. Yeah. And it was not the reason I went out with him, but it was the reason it didn't work out. Yeah. I mean, it's just like, I don't know. Like, I know some women probably like that, but no one in my friend group, like it's, it's pretty. And like, just like. It's great on a movie screen. Yeah.

[01:03:20] Like, I mean, I can appreciate the bodies and it's very nice, but in real life dating someone, it's like, no, I want to get Italian tonight. Yeah. Like what? Yeah. What do you mean you're on another cleanse? Like, what? Yeah. Yeah. Be healthy and comfortable. That, that, that's key. Yeah. And happy. Like. I know. Like, enjoy life. I want to have someone who will have good food with me. Yeah.

[01:03:47] When, when Chris Pratt got all ripped for the first Guardians of the Galaxy movie, somebody in an interview asked him about how he did it. And he was like, oh, I gave up fun. That's exactly it. That's exactly it. Yeah. And they were like, what do you mean? He's like, junk food, cheese, dairy, bread, beer.

[01:04:13] He just started listing like all the things he couldn't have while he was building that body. And it sounded miserable. And he was like, yeah, I just gave up fun. I didn't, couldn't have any more fun. Gave up fun and worked out all the time. Had a private trainer. That's, that's all they do. Yeah. So it's like, there's not a lot going on there, but like, yeah, I want to get ice cream after dinner. Like he's not getting ice cream after dinner. Yeah. And I, I like my ice cream. I want, I want that fake butter on my popcorn.

[01:04:43] Oh, so good. Yeah. Yeah. You know, Chris Pratt is not eating any fake butter. No. You know, Hemsworth isn't either. No. Um, but like, yeah, I, I like, I like that stuff. Also Hemsworth wife, she's not in that butter either. She's got a banging body too, but not the kind that I would want. Either of them looks fully human. Both of them look to me like somebody's like created some kind of like robot ideal human. It's very strange. And they're children too. I'm like, oh my God. Just gorgeous.

[01:05:13] Well, they also like live on like a farm and that's a lot of hard work and like moving around and, and, and everything. But speaking of unrealistic celebrities, I did like that. Um, when Cordy had the crossbow aimed at Spike, um, she said, once you're done doing the full Johnny Depp over. Yeah. Nice reminder that Johnny Depp has always been an actor. Don't know. Yeah.

[01:05:37] Like, like, like I, I think that got lost a little bit, uh, cause people like his movies. Um, and then the trial that should never have been, um, publicized that hurt my mental health and I didn't even follow it. Yeah. Um, yeah, no, he's always been a jerk. Uh, as talented as he is, he's, he's always been a jerk. Um, so that's not a new thing. And, and I'm not a fan of cancel culture.

[01:06:06] Um, I, I do have a hard time watching his movies now. It's that, that's just a part of me. Just why, you know, I can watch Buffy and Angel, even though JW wrote it because his face isn't on the screen. Exactly. And so many other people worked on it that. Yeah. I still like want to support all those people. Yeah. Um, it's not like the Cosby show where I'm like, Oh my God, everything in the show is about this one horrible person.

[01:06:34] Like it's everything on the Cosby show. It's too much. Yeah. And there's like enough positive people. I don't particularly want to watch anything with Amber Heard in it anymore either. That's more of like a personal preference. Like for, for me, like I just, you know, first of all, there's no such thing as cancel culture. The men come back. So like, you know, like, see, yeah, Louis CK is still touring and making movies. Money. Mel Gibson. Yeah. Mel Gibson.

[01:07:01] He going to be at Megacon for load, load, lethal weapon. Yeah. In, in Florida and Megacon. So I'm like, nah, no, no one's suffering. But like, for me, I just don't particularly want to see the face of abusers. Like, I don't want to, I have not watched any Brad Pitt movies since all the allegations came out. Since all this stuff came out. And it's just me. Like, I don't particularly. Right. Because it's in my head. Like seeing their faces. Yeah. Yeah. I can't not think about it. And they have power and privilege. Yeah. So they have power and privilege.

[01:07:30] And I just, I, I don't, I don't like it. And same thing. I know we had talked about squid games. Then after knowing, I don't care about the marijuana thing. Dear God. I know that that's one of the biggest controversies is when the actors did weed. That's the smallest thing. Dear God. Like, you have sexual predators on this cast. Yeah. It was really upsetting. Because it was like, this one and this one and this one and this one all have these horrible pasts. And it's like, oh no. Horrific pasts. Yeah.

[01:07:59] I really enjoyed watching squid games. I know. And it's like, like you already hired a sexual predator for the first season. And then you hire, you re-opted for the second season. Yeah. Where it's like, it's the point where like the lead, it's like a DUI. I'm like, I can live with a DUI. I can live with a DUI. Same, same. It's like, aren't I? Yeah. Like, I mean, for reals. I mean, it's not my favorite. Neither one of those are my favorite.

[01:08:27] But I, I'm not as judgy in my brain about that. Yeah. But if you're a sexual predator. Like, you have no business being employed. I don't want to see it on my screen. I don't want to see it on my screen. I don't want to see your face. Like, it's, you know, the stuff. I don't even care. Like, if, oh, I, I always believe survivors. So if like all this stuff that, you know, is coming out about Brad Pitt and how he treated his children, his wife. And I'm like, oh, go die in a hole, sir. Yeah. Not really. Metaphorical. Done with you.

[01:08:55] But like, you know, like, dear God, I don't want to see that face. It's so upsetting because he, he's an example of somebody who has used his celebrity and power in ways in the past that I have really admired. And to find out that it's like with Neil Gaiman, like the public face and the private face don't match. And it's so deeply disappointing when the public face has done like particularly good things.

[01:09:25] It's like, oh God, I feel so duped. You know? Yes. Duped. Yeah. Like, oh God, I can't believe that I fell for that. Like, I mean, I've never met these people in person. So maybe my instincts would have catch, would have kicked in if I had been around them in person. But who knows? Yeah. I mean, the hard thing is, is that they're protected, right? Like this doesn't happen in a vacuum and, you know, power is money.

[01:09:51] And, you know, we do give a lot of celebrities, a lot of power for people we've never met. And we, we may like them as people. I think really, at least for my, you know, conceptualization of it, we like the characters that they played and the effect those characters had on our lives. That's what we connect to. We don't know this human. Yeah. I mean, their public persona is just another character that they're playing. Yep. Yep.

[01:10:21] And it reminds me of Speed of Twilight. Poor, poor Robert. I'm laughing. I shouldn't laugh because it's a very serious matter. But Robert Pattinson, I think you shared on one of his interviews a couple of years back that there was a woman stalking him. Oh, I love this story. And then he took her out for coffee or for dinner and she never followed him again. Yeah, he talked to her for like two hours straight and she was like, I'm no longer in love with you.

[01:10:51] And the actor finds it funny. It is a very dangerous thing. Don't ever have, you know, meals with your stalker. But I do find that very funny and just sort of like, yeah, you don't know these people. Yeah. It's a fantasy. Well, you know, that's a perfect lead in to Melissa and the creepy doctor because she's like, he operated on me, which is an intimate thing, but not a way that you really get to know a person.

[01:11:16] And then they had one date and he comes out of their one date with like, I love you forever and I'm going to take care of you. And I've changed your bank pin code because it was too easy to guess. And like, I'm protecting you. And she's terrified. And, you know, it's interesting because the whole concept of a stalker in the 90s was kind of new. It, 1990 was the first time that an anti-stalking law in the U.S. was passed in California.

[01:11:46] And I remember in the 80s and 90s, so many like sort of lurid, exploitative movie of the weeks about stalkers. And it was always a little bit sexy. Like the portrayal of the stalker was always kind of like, isn't this a sexy story? And it- Like basic instinct, right? Yeah.

[01:12:12] Like basic instinct or like, um, swim fan is a good one. That's a super stalker story or single white female or- There were a lot of these movies in the, in the 80s and 90s and stalkers were a topic of conversation. It was in the air. People were talking about it. Uh, 96 was when the Violence Against Women Act was passed and stalking had a federal definition after that. So, you know, here's the show in 1999. Stalking is super relevant. People are talking about it.

[01:12:42] Now it's so commonly understood that it's a thing that people joke about it. They'll be like, oh, that's my stalker. When it's just like, you know, that's a guy that recognizes me in waves when I walk by him in the park. Like it- Yeah. That said though, I have a lot of people I've known who have had legitimate stalkers. I'm one of them. Not supposed. My very first boyfriend, the very first person I had sex with. Hmm. Stalked me. That's disturbing.

[01:13:12] Yes. Yeah. And, and yeah, like so much about that storyline was uncomfortable to watch because there's power dynamics with a medical team and their patients. Yeah. And as a clinician- I mean, you're naked and unconscious with them. A hundred percent. Yeah. And, you know, whether we like it or not, a doctor has power over us. They have the greater power in the dynamic when we go to see them. Yeah.

[01:13:40] It's like, they teach us about it in grad school, about like power dynamics between supervisors, between like me and a patient. I have the greater power in that dynamic. Right. Whether either one of us likes it or not. It just is. And there's no getting around it. It, it just is. Um, and that is just how that works. And it has that, like you said, Penny, that vulnerability. And you see this in the episode. Like, yeah, you can tell a woman helped to write this episode.

[01:14:08] And maybe the other writers had some experience, did some research on stalking. Because she says he operated on her and he asked her out. Okay. Nope. That's not, that's not allowed. That's not nice. Um, and, um, and that's not, that that's icky. Like, I think a patient can ask a doctor out and that's a different thing. Um, but like he asked her out. So he had the greater power in the dynamic. He's the one who's supposed to hold his boundaries and hers. Yeah. But he didn't.

[01:14:36] He asked her out and she felt uncomfortable, but she said it, she said yes anyway, which, you know, she thought. She owed him something like this. Yeah. It was all messy and gross. I loved it. And like, it's not her fault at all. Explaining the story. And Cordy was like, well, yeah, of course you did. Like, plus he's a doctor. Of course you went out with him. Like. Yeah. And he saved you. And he has. Cordy understood it immediately. 100%. And she had like a physical reaction. She was like, my skin is crawling. It's so creepy.

[01:15:04] Like, you know, I don't know if Cordelia, the character has ever been stalked, but she had an immediate sympathy and understanding of the situation. And even, you know, Angel goes to Kate and he talks to her about the situation. And Kate is, she has some great lines, but she's like. I loved her lines. And when you put this guy in jail, he still wins because he lives in her head. She's already afraid. She's thinking about him. And it, it's funny.

[01:15:31] A lot of people don't understand when, when we say that like sexual violence or stalking is a power crime and not a sex crime. Like it's not about wanting sex. It's about wanting power. And stalking is about forcing the other person attention to be on you at all times. And they don't feel safe. It's taking away their sense of safety on purpose. And then in a way that they can't get it back.

[01:16:00] And like, which in that, that line too, like she needs to get angry. She does. And we see it in the episode. And so like, you know, angry is, is how you can protect yourself. Yeah. And, you know, like in that moment and realize that he, he, you didn't do anything wrong. He is the problem. He did this to you. And this, this works for other genders too. So it's like, if you are the target of stalking, you need to get angry so that you can step up and defend yourself. And that, I don't always necessarily mean physically, but psychologically.

[01:16:29] And, and I like the part, like, cause I was surprised, we know, I don't like Kate. But the, the part where he goes, he goes up to her angel and he says, you know, things are about to get dark because he's stalking her. And she's like, well, if he's stalking her, it's already gotten dark. Yeah. And it's like, thank you, Kate. Yeah. So it just sort of shows again, just some throwaway lines, but like the gender differences in there too.

[01:16:54] And I, you know, I'm, maybe I'm generalizing, but I, there's a socialization for women that starts for us when we are very little girls that our parents can not protect us from. And it is being sexualized, followed, stared at by adult men from young ages. Like, like I'm talking like six, seven years old. And we're taught to be polite to those men, even if they skeeve us out.

[01:17:21] The current generation of parents are changing this dialogue and they are teaching their daughters to say, you're creepy, get away from me in public to men. And being loud and not being worried about being rude to somebody who is giving you the creeps is the most powerful thing because they usually approach in increments. And if you're polite in the early stages, even though your instincts are telling you not to be, they will just escalate.

[01:17:51] So you got to nip it in the bud immediately. Yeah. It's, it's, it's the grooming. Um, it, it, it happens in my workplace and then I see it happening. Um, it's happened to me as a, as a, as a female professional. It's just like women are just constantly targets for this. And I don't think, I think it's because it's outside the awareness of a lot of cisgendered heterosexual men. Yeah. I just think like that's just not the life they've ever lived.

[01:18:16] And I'm sure like, unfortunately an adult man may have looked at, at them strangely when they were children or something like, I'm sure. It does happen to some men, but it is primarily women. It happens to women. Yeah. It's, it's, it's something like 70% of stalking victims are women. And, um, it's two thirds of the time it is a current or former intimate partner and, or

[01:18:45] in a, and about a quarter of the time it's an acquaintance. The idea of a stranger stalking someone is like 10 to 15% of the time. That is not that common. It's usually someone, you know, um, when I was in my legal job, I had to deal with one employee stalking another employee. It was incredibly disturbing. Jesus. Um, you know, we fired the other, the one employee and we reported him to, you know, the police

[01:19:13] local to where he lived and they ended up dropping the case. And this is why I really, I'm a little sad that Kara couldn't be here because she has this background as a prosecutor, but stalking is a really tricky crime for law enforcement. And it's because what the person is doing, each individual act is not necessarily a crime

[01:19:39] or in and of itself doesn't look scary to the outside observer. It's about a pattern and it's about them not taking no for an answer, but like, let's look at the, the, just the story in the episode. He sends her flowers at work. That's nice. What, what, you don't want flowers from this guy? Oh, he's worried about the security of your bank account. That's so protective. Men are supposed to be the protectors of women.

[01:20:04] Like, and he's, you know, in this case, like with a lot of shows in the Buffy episodes in the Buffyverse, everything up to the supernatural aspect is completely realistic. Now, being able to pull out your eyeballs and like have them go spy on a person separate from your body. As far as I know, it's not possible in the real world. God, I hope it's not possible.

[01:20:28] But technology has advanced in such a way that it would be so easy for someone to, and people do this, put cameras in other people's homes or near their homes to watch them. And technology can do a lot of what this guy was doing with like magic. And it's terrifying and it's hard to prove and it's hard to fight against.

[01:20:55] Women have changed their names and moved to get away from stalkers. It is, it is a problem. And in my mind, it's part of rape culture and just an overall culture of, of women being treated as objects, even by like, quote unquote, the good men. Right. And so I'll post a link to the rape culture pyramid or pyramid of harm or pyramid of violence. It's got a lot of different names.

[01:21:24] But basically what it says is that things that look sort of less serious or innocuous, like, you know, jokes or dress codes that tell women that their bodies are distracting to boys in school or, oh, boys will be boys. They snap your bra strap. It's not that big of a deal. That all of that forms the base of this pyramid.

[01:21:47] And all of those little acts that seem like they're not that big of a deal are just the like sort of foundation of a culture that leads to, you know, worse and worse things. Following them, stalking them, flashing somebody, catcalling, you know, groping somebody when they don't consent to it, voyeurism, sexual harassment in the workplace, and then on up to, you know,

[01:22:16] coercion, rape and eventually death. And these cases often end in death. And then the police afterward are like, oh, well, I wish we had known. And the woman's like, I tried to file like 18 different times a complaint about this guy. And you told me I couldn't do anything. And now I'm dead. Like, it's so disturbing. Well, yeah. And it's I completely agree. And like all this research, like it shows this.

[01:22:41] And, you know, I think this is where like no one benefits from the patriarchy. And there's a lot of like men are some of the biggest victims of the patriarchy because they'll talk about, well, why can't women just say no? Or why can't women say, you know, I don't want to date you? Well, do you want all the statistics from 2025 alone of the women who've been murdered because they turned down someone hitting on them? And I'm not talking about someone that they know. I'm talking about like a guy in a bar.

[01:23:12] Like, I mean, like, you know, there's there was just a woman who was murdered in the subway station in December of a guy asked her out. She said, no, he killed her. Yeah. She didn't know him. So it's like, you know, there's there's a lot of danger here. So this does impact how everyone can act. Even, you know, like the the good guys who are like, I would never do that. How are we supposed to know? Yeah, we can't tell from looking at you whether or not you are a stalker.

[01:23:39] And also there are a lot of guys who exist in the sort of fuzzy low levels of this pyramid who are benefiting from the worst men. Right. They're like, well, I never raped anybody. And it's like, oh, congratulations. Like, yeah. You know, great. I haven't murdered anyone. Aren't you happy? You're so lucky to be with a guy that doesn't beat you every night. Isn't that great? I know. Like the bar is low. Like, that's great. Yeah. It's like, sir, I haven't murdered anyone lately.

[01:24:09] Where's my kudos? Yeah. It's like, you don't get kudos for baseline human decency. Yeah. And treating women like sex objects at an early age trains them and grooms them to put up with the worst and worse behavior as they get older until someone pushes them too far. And they say no. And then sometimes violence happens. Yes. It's a horrible society to live in. Oh, yeah. Yeah.

[01:24:35] And I will say, like, you know, in my role as a psychologist, I'm very nervous in exploring the options with people who are undergoing domestic violence. And that includes emotional and psychological abuse as well as stalking. Because the moment the person puts up resistance or leaves, that is one of the most dangerous times for the person. Yeah. It's one of the most dangerous, as we see in the show, right?

[01:25:04] Like, when there, of course, when she appeared to be the property of Angel rather than the surgeon, that's when he goes to kill her. Yeah. And it's like, you know, that's actually pretty accurate. So, you know, when people say, like, well, you can just leave them. Well, one, there's a lot in there, like financial resources and everything. Yes. Like, leaving them, it kind of needs to be a goal, especially if there's physical violence. Um, but it's not that easy.

[01:25:32] And you should, you should call the police. So this is what I do because I, I am always worried. I, I do, I safety plan with my patients and I say, you need to call the police. You need to have them be there when you are packing up. And unfortunately, even in New England, we have gotten pushback. Yeah. Of the police saying that's not their job and that you can hire the police when they're off duty. And, um, I'm here to tell you that's not allowed. Yeah.

[01:26:01] Ask to speak to a sergeant or a chief. Are you kidding me? So like, just like heads up with that. It is, it is a very dangerous time. Please don't think if you're leaving an abusive person that they're fine because, you know, they've never hit you or they've never, you don't know what someone's capable of in these times. And I can tell you the research isn't good. They, um, so there's been a lot of research, this study, and we're going to put it in the show notes is in 2018 where they were, they reviewed domestic violence killings in the

[01:26:31] United Kingdom, which showed an eight stage timeline of events before the actual domestic violence homicide takes place. This is accurate. Unfortunately, the biggest predictor of future violence is past violence. It's never, he's going to hit you once. I'm sorry that, that, that's not the thing. And, um, they talk about 575 homicide cases involving women killed by men known as femicide,

[01:26:59] which is illegal in other countries, but in the U S we're just cool with, with women and girls being murdered. Um, and then, um, they found 372 femicide cases in a three year time span. Um, they found eight steps that were identified to be present in almost all of these murders that were studied. One was a pre-relationship history of stalking or abuse by the perpetrator.

[01:27:27] Like Penny was saying, I, you know, I've seen it too. I, I did it when I was stalked. I brushed it off. I mean, I was 19. Um, and so like, I, I just brushed it off. I didn't, I didn't pay attention to it. And, um, no, I, that friend still to this day will not tell me what my ex said to him on the phone. Um, and, and it was bad. And he told me like all of us, a bunch of like teenagers in college.

[01:27:55] And he's like, I think you need to go to the police. This guy's really sick. And I was like, dear God. Like, Oh God. I just thought he was like a dude who hadn't gotten over me. Yeah. Like he's, he still won't tell me. Um, cause he thought, Hey, give me the phone and maybe he'll stop calling you. Um, he did, uh, again, another guy coming in and, you know, taking the place. Cause Hey, you know, there can't be two penises in this heterosexual relationship.

[01:28:21] No is not to be respected, but she belongs to another man. Then yeah. Yeah. So, um, but so yeah, pre history. Pre pre relationship history of stalking. They're following you around. It's not cute. It's not a romantic comedy. And some of them have that or abuse by the perpetrator. Then the next step is the romance develops quickly into a serious relationship. We see these warning signs. People go headlong into a relationship.

[01:28:48] It's not always bad, but thinking about that, it turns real serious, real quick. They're going to start isolating you from your support network. Yeah. It's, it's just a part of it. Um, you don't know this person. Um, that's just not possible. The relationship then becomes dominated by coercive control, taking over the finances, who you can see, what you can wear, what you can eat, where you can go. Um, that's a tough thing.

[01:29:14] If you're doing it just to make your partner happy, I, I highly recommend asking your friends and family and asking a therapist. Cause I gotta tell you, they can have preferences. They shouldn't be controlling what you're eating, wearing or going. Right. Or cutting you off from your family and friends. That is one of the biggest red flags. So bad. It's like, Oh, I don't like the way you act when you've been out with your girlfriends.

[01:29:41] Or are you talking to other men when you go on a girl's night out? And, you know, it makes me uncomfortable. Or this friend came on to me. You shouldn't be friends with her anymore. It's all suspicious. Yeah. It's, it's all, it's all bad. And I've, you know, I've, I've had, I've said on the podcast, I have been blessed and in some ways cursed with having a really wonderful bunch of guy friends in, in my life for a lot of years. They're all like in dedicated relationships.

[01:30:11] They don't do any of that stuff. Not at all. There's not even like, I trust her. I just don't trust other men. That has never come out of any of their mouths. They're like, yeah, go have fun. Yeah. Like, let me know when you're coming home. So I know you're alive. Like, you know, like, like that kind of thing. But like, no, they're, they're not controlling anyone. They treat their partners like equals, not property. The next one for is a trigger threatens the perpetrator's control.

[01:30:37] For example, the relationship ends or the perpetrator gets into financial difficulties. Any stressor in this person's life can escalate things. That's the problem. Also. Is even though if, if their team loses sometimes. Oh boy. That's a big one. Domestic. I, I hate, hate, hate with a passion. I mean, I don't like sports. I also really hate that Superbowl Sunday is coming up because I cannot unlearn that that's one of the highest times of domestic violence.

[01:31:11] Yeah. But that means these abusers are going to take it out on their respective partners, which also domestic violence can be found in all relationships. Yeah. Not just like purely heterosexual ones. And then there's an escalation, an increase in the intensity or frequency of the partner's control tactics. It's a pet peeve of mine. Threatening suicide. Oh my God. Dear God.

[01:31:38] It is as a psychologist, it is one of the biggest pet peeves of mine. And I've known many, many, many people in my support network that have had this happen. And I am telling you right now as a psychologist, just like you can't shout bomb in an airport and say like, oh, I was just joking. I was just letting it go. You cannot threaten suicide to your partner. Call the police. If they want to die, that's, you got to call and help. Yeah.

[01:32:08] You don't, for me, you don't get to cry wolf. And I have done that for family when they've done that in front of me. Absolutely. We're calling the police. Well, I mean, I just, you know, no, absolutely not. Like, no, no, no. This isn't, this isn't a joke. Like, so, you know, threatening suicide to emotionally manipulate someone into staying is beyond sick. It is beyond sick. And that is a red flag.

[01:32:32] If someone, when you argue with them, they threaten suicide, 100% leave that relationship. I don't need to know anything else. Yeah. This person needs help and you can't give it to them. So, like, as a psychologist, if I was dating someone who did that, guess what? I'm calling 911. I'm going to get you help. And we're not hanging out anymore because I'm sorry. You have a lot of work to do and you don't get to do that to other people. I'll, you know, let's see how you are in therapy six months a year from now. But no, no, no, no.

[01:33:01] You need help and I can't be that. So, that is one of my biggest pet peeves as a psychologist because it is pure emotional manipulation to allow them to continue harming you. Absolutely not. And then the next step, step six, is the perpetrator has a change in thinking. Choosing to move on either through revenge or by homicide. This is where it gets really dangerous. This is where things, I mean, it's all dangerous, but this is the part where it gets really rough.

[01:33:30] Now he's decided to either leave you or kill you. And you will not know that this is coming. This is why domestic violence has such high correlations with domestic homicide. And stalking has such high correlations with domestic homicide. And then the next part, step seven, is planning. The perpetrator might buy weapons or seek opportunities to get the victim alone. The research shows this time and time again. And for those of you wondering, no, these are not illegally bought weapons. These are legally bought.

[01:33:59] And then finally, step eight, homicide. The perpetrator kills his or her partner and possibly hurts others such as victims' children. There's unfortunately quite a few stories about mass murderers and who do they start with? Their family. Yeah. And a lot of times at the end of it themselves. Yeah, absolutely.

[01:34:21] The only instance where a stage in the model was not followed was when men did not meet stage one. Which means they didn't have a pre-relationship stalking or violence. Interesting. I mean, these are the warning signs. And they say, but this was normally because they had not previously had a relationship. Yeah. Which is its own stuff. Yeah. So, yeah.

[01:34:47] So, I thought that that was a really interesting way to kind of put out a lot of warning signs for people. Like, if you want to try and rationalize away steps one or two, people, if you start seeing these steps coming in, it's coming. Yeah. And, you know, there's these hundreds of cases. And this was just one study with hundreds of people. So, it is very, very intense. And it reminds me of the bear and the man in the woods debate. Yeah.

[01:35:16] Where so many men could not understand why women chose the bear. And then they looked at the stats of how many bears killed people versus how many men killed women. And it's like, yeah, those three bear attacks were really intense compared to the hundreds of women murdered by men in one year. So many. So many. And also, men are more likely to be killed by other men than a bear. That's also true.

[01:35:42] There's a domestic violence story in Walking Dead as well. And I always remember there's a scene where the victim says to our beloved Rick, you know, like, oh, you know, if it gets worse. And he goes, if it gets worse, he's killed you. And I always think about that moment because I'm like, the clarity that he has that, like, this is a pattern. I've seen this pattern. I know where it's going. And you need to accept that this is what is happening.

[01:36:12] And everyone's sort of in denial. They're like, oh, we kind of thought maybe if, you know, we did this, it wouldn't be so bad. And it's like, no, this guy's going to kill her. And the only thing that stops him from killing her is that he kills someone else first. And then, you know, he gets ganked. But that's Walking Dead. Everybody dies on Walking Dead. Everybody does. Yeah, but it's true.

[01:36:37] It's, I mean, the whole psychology behind it is when someone puts their hands on you, they've taken away your rights as a human and made you an object. Yeah. And once you've done it once, it's really easy to do it again. And that just, once you're an object to them, you don't have rights. You're not entitled to your life. You are not entitled to safety or not being harmed. You are their punching bag that they can use to self-regulate, I guess, on the outside.

[01:37:07] But that's, that's like what they taught us in grad school is the big warning sign about domestic violence and stalking is you are no longer entitled to basic human rights. Yeah. Like they have, they have decided that, decided that on this target of their behavior. That's why it usually leads to murder because you're not a person to them anymore. And when they're done with you, they're done with you. Yes. And nobody else gets to have you. Yes.

[01:37:31] And one of the most toxic things is the domestic violence cycle, which is really difficult. Um, where they don't talk about it. They talk about it in episode three a little bit. Right. Yeah. So let's talk about Rachel and Lenny. Yes. Yeah. I'm more scared of me than I am of him right now. You're at a crossroads. I know. It's either go for the easy fix and wait for the consequences or take the hard road and go with faith. Oh God.

[01:38:02] You're not from that freaky church on the sunset, are you? In yourself, that kind of faith. What I'm saying is if you leave Lenny for good, it'll hurt. But eventually you'll be stronger for it. And maybe you'll find your way to the kind of love you deserve. You mean the kind that comes without 911 calls? That's a general idea.

[01:38:26] And when she said like, you know how this starts most of the time is I call him and I'm like, oh, I've done that. Oh, I have been like, hey, how are you doing? And then I'm like, oh no, I'm back in chaos. Like, it's dumb. And she needed to be sort of scared into not calling Lenny again. And we don't ever really, I don't think, find out what happens to Rachel.

[01:38:55] Like, does she stay away from Lenny forever? I think so. Because at the end, Doyle says she said that she found a little faith. Yeah. And I think that he was telling her to have faith in the justice system. Or he said faith in herself. Right. Yeah. That was such a great scene where she's like, oh no, are you from that weird church? And I'm like, yeah, that's probably how I would have responded too. I would have been like, please don't bring God into this.

[01:39:25] But he's like, oh, and I mean faith in yourself. And it's true that like one of the things that an abusive person does is chip away at your self-esteem so that you don't even think you deserve to be away from them anymore. Like, I don't deserve better than this. And I'm lucky I got out of that toxic relationship relatively quickly, considering.

[01:39:49] But I have definitely seen people go through it for a lot longer and keep going back to someone who treats them badly. Because at some level, they're like, I deserve to be treated like this. Or I don't deserve better. It's two sides of the same coin. No one deserves that. Yeah. No one deserves that. And there are some people in this world that I genuinely cannot stand. They make my skin crawl. I wouldn't wish domestic violence on them.

[01:40:18] Like, it's such like, gosh, it's just such a mind toenail. Yeah. Because part of it, so, you know, there's so many. You can just Google the cycle of violence. But one of the things that comes up is the explosion. We all know what that is. Violence, emotional abuse, all that stuff. Then there's the remorse phase. The justification. The minimizing.

[01:40:49] The guilt. That's how they worm their way in. Then there's the pursuit phase. The pursuit and the promises that they'll make to you. I'll never do it again. I'm just having a really hard time. But it'll get better. I'll get therapy. I promise. Yeah. Yeah. I'll go to therapy. I'll promise. It's never going to happen again. The honeymoon phase. Oh, they're taking you out to dinner. They're buying you things. They're all sweet and cuddly and doing things for you. This is what drives me nuts as a clinician. Because I know that that's pulling you back in.

[01:41:19] And then there's an increase in tension. And then you're just right back into it. An increase. Uh-huh. And then the standover phase. Control and fear. And then the explosion. And it just goes and goes and goes. No one is the exception. And that's the part of it. And as a clinician, I'm pretty strict. If I'm working with someone who we're going to get law enforcement involved. I mean, it is not just leave this person. It is very much involved because I know how dangerous it is. Or can be.

[01:41:47] My rules in therapy. And I own like, you know, I can transfer you to another therapist. It's totally okay. My rules in therapy are you don't get contact with your ex once you leave. And I was actually taught that when my practicum that I was clinically, I was training at, was connected to a domestic abuse shelter. And they said you can't, like these men and women cannot have contact with their abusive ex. Because now they're away from the violence.

[01:42:16] And the ex is going to honeymoon stage them over and over and over and over. And it's brainwashing. So I take that on. And I own that that's my thing in therapy. Of like, I'm going to have a hard time working with your brainwashing if you're actively involved with this person. So I just, you know, I think everyone should have a therapist. Go talk to your therapist. I love mine.

[01:42:42] So like, they're good people to bounce this stuff off of. And they're neutral parties. And they'll be able to bring in other ways and other things to think about. And it's just, it's just such a tough thing. But yeah, her character really reminded me of the cycle of domestic violence. Yeah, girl, you can't, you can't go back. It's not going to get better. Right. I will say when he hit her in the beginning, I gasped. Yeah.

[01:43:11] Like, I remember the episode. But I still, like, I just, for all the demon fights we have, something about two humans and domestic violence really, like, gut punched me. Yeah. So to speak. Like, so, but yeah, it was pretty brutal. I was sort of annoyed when I was watching episode four. I was like, this is four episodes in a row of this brand new show with a damsel in distress. Right.

[01:43:36] Like, Angel just keeps rescuing these women from these dangerous men. And I was like, is this exploitative? Is this turning violence against women into entertainment? Or is it shining a light on a very real problem in society? I think maybe it's both.

[01:43:56] And then I started thinking about it in terms of, like, Angel, when he was Angelus, delighted in stalking and terrorizing women specifically. And so maybe the powers that be in universe are specifically sending him to rescue the kinds of women that he terrorized in the past.

[01:44:22] That his redemption path is customized to him. And some of the horrible things that he did before. This made me feel better about the fact that it's been four damsels in distress in a row. So I was like, all right, it's sort of thematic with Angelus. I like that. I will say that the victims, the people that Angel helps do get more diverse as the show goes on.

[01:44:48] Although this sort of, like, the worst danger to women is men is a theme that will keep coming up and coming up. Yeah. And I had a very similar reaction, Penny. Of, like, oh, again. I like your take on that. I think that is my favorite take. For me, like, watching episode four, I was like, that is kind of accurate, though. Yeah.

[01:45:15] Like, women are mainly the targets of men. And they are just societally easier targets. You know, like, sexual assault is the only crime where we ask whether the victim brought it on. Or, like, how hard did they actually fight back? Yeah. What were you wearing? What were you doing walking down the street? What do you mean? Why didn't you lock the doors?

[01:45:42] Like, we don't ask that about, like, burglaries or, like, homicides. Like, so I do think, you know, there's a point of, like, yeah, I can see women being the main target for monsters. They are for humans. And it has nothing to do with physiology. It's because it is women are socialized that way and society views them that way. I mean. We are more vulnerable because we're less believed.

[01:46:10] You know, like, a lot of women are, on average, physically less strong than men. But we're also, like, hamstrung. Like, just look at women's fashion and how hard it is to run in, like, a women's business suit or high heels. Like, all, like, corsets. Like, all of these things that have been part of, like, women's expected behavior in society are designed to make women easier targets.

[01:46:40] Yeah. Right? Yeah. Limited mobility. Like, physical, financial, emotional, like, limit, trap, coerce, you know, keep them in a marriage. Keep them, you know, like, treat them. They have to tell them they have to be subservient. Like, all these things. Like, it's not even that long ago that, like, marital rape wasn't even a crime. It was like, that can't possibly be a crime. It was in the 70s. Yeah. Yeah, 1970s. Yeah. No, it's wild.

[01:47:08] Women and girls were just added to the Constitution. Like, last week. Now, yeah. Like, I think a lot of people with sexism and racism and ethnocentrism and homophobia, I think people forget that, like, it hasn't been that long since laws were put into place. And that's a whole other story. But, like, this stuff has been real for a while.

[01:47:35] And societal change actually takes quite a lot. And, yeah, there is this thing I've noticed where if it's not your lived experience, it's harder to understand. Yeah. And it just, I would just encourage people to have more empathy and really just talk to people. Like, you know, I feel like sharing with individuals, like, you know, hey, this is what I go through.

[01:48:02] I mean, one of the most powerful things in my grad school class was, this is a gender studies class, but our male professor was, like, how many ways are, he's like, I just want to talk to the men. He's like, I'm going to be binary here, but I just want to talk to the men in the class, like, the little four of you. But, like, you know, how many ways are you guys protecting yourself on the way to the subway or the bus today? And they, like, they just kind of stared at him blankly. Like what? It's like, I mean, I'm sure, like, guys can get jumped too.

[01:48:31] Like, I'm sure they're mindful. And he goes, okay, women. I think there wasn't that many more of us, but they said, women, how many ways are you protecting yourself? Oh, there's so many. We had over a dozen. And he's like, this is a reality we can never understand. So you need to understand that when you meet with patients. Like, yeah, like you take their word for it.

[01:48:57] When women say, like, walking at night to just, like, get to the subway or to get, you know, parking your car and then having to walk into a building when the parking lot is dark is terrifying. And will you just believe us when we tell you that it's terrifying? And don't argue with us about it. And help us. Help us. Like, you know, it's something I think I've been pretty verbal about on my social media.

[01:49:24] I'm horrified that there was a group of worldwide members. Oh, the text thing. Oh, my God. 700,000 men from around the world had a social media group where they were sharing and exchanging guidance on how to sexually assault their wives, girlfriends, mothers, daughters, neighbors. Yeah. It was 70,000, I think. But it's still. Was it 70,000? Absolutely horrible.

[01:49:52] I remember they were like, it's multiple football stadiums or something. Yeah, it was so many. So many. Yeah. And that's just the one we know about. That they caught. Yes. That they caught. And it's been around for years. 70,000. Still. It's so many men. Thank you. It's so many men. I've had one guy friend post about it. I've had a bunch of women talking about it and posting about it.

[01:50:15] I don't understand why sexual assault, rape and stalking, molestation, harassment continues to only be a women's subject. Y'all, you guys need to step up. If you're the good guys, please, I'm begging you. Like, talk about it. Talk about it with the men in your life. Don't talk to me about it. I'm all informed. Talk to the men you know. Post on your social media. Post about this stuff. Say it publicly.

[01:50:41] If you, yeah, if you are one of the good guys and you're like, well, I don't have any friends that do locker room talk. Great. Then there should be no problem with you posting about the wonderful Gabrielle Pellicott from France who stood up and was so brave. Yeah. Another thing I have seen no men post about. They don't want to talk about it. If you're a good guy, post about it. So this brings up a moment in the episode. Cordy is talking to Doyle and she's like, why even bother dating? Right?

[01:51:09] You meet a doctor and he turns out to be a stalker. Like, whatever. And then she's like. I'm a soul. Yeah. She's like, if you like them, they don't like you back. And if you don't like them, that's the guy that will hover around you and never leave. And Doyle gets all uncomfortable and sort of like backs away from Cordelia. Obviously being like, oh no, am I that guy that's hovering around and won't leave her alone? And this, I think, is the thing that stops good guys from being more active allies.

[01:51:38] Is that they can recognize themselves in some of the bad behavior that women talk about. And they're so horrified by it or embarrassed by it or worried that someone's going to call them out on it. That they just want to avoid the entire subject. It makes them so uncomfortable. That's a great point. And it's like, get over yourself. All of us have made mistakes in our past. All you can do is when you know better, do better. So you know better.

[01:52:08] So now I want you to talk about it with other guys and own it. I think about who is the comedian who used to be friends with Russell Brand and he's going around being like, he was my friend. And did it. Daniel Sloss. Yeah, Daniel Sloss. That's what you need to be doing, everyone. And that is, that is sexy. I gotta tell you, being for women's rights and like believing in women's rights and being respectful. And so passionately vocal about it. Woo! I, that is sexy. Yeah.

[01:52:36] Like that, that is how you, this is how you do it. And I gotta say like, I'm, you're, you nailed it, Penny. Cause I remember, I'll never forget, I had this conversation with one of my friends. Like I were friends for like 15 years now. And there was an article, this was a conversation that happened like 10 years ago, but there was an article that came out that said, asked women, what would you do if all men had a curfew at 5 p.m.? What would you do? Like actually go outside at night? Yeah. Yeah. I'd go for a night run. I'd drive with the windows down.

[01:53:05] Like I'd put both, you know, headphones on. And like, I remember it was like, I had just like a house party. I mean, like our house parties were just food and beverages, sometimes alcohol. And we'd all just hang out. Um, and I just never remember, I'll never forget Kevin being like, like near tears. Like he was like, I never, I never knew. Yeah. Like I never knew how much, like I'm getting teary-eyed thinking about it. Cause I started crying when he told me and I had no alcohol yet.

[01:53:34] Um, but it was like, it was just a real conversation. And he's like one of the sweetest men on the planet. And like, you know, very like, I mean, I would trust him in the woods, like, and with my baby and stuff like that. Like he is a very, very sweet, good man. But he's like, I never thought that this is your reality. I remember crying because it was just such a wonderful conversation. And I still remember it 15 years later of like, yeah, like this just talk.

[01:54:03] And if you mess up, just own it and apologize. I do it when, when I make mistakes and I, you know, I'm in my white privilege. Oh my God. My cisgendered privilege. Like I make mistakes and I apologize all the time. Like, I'm just like, oh my God, I'm so sorry. It's like a daily occurrence that I remember something that I said to someone 20 years ago that is clearly a microaggression. And I'm like, I cannot believe I said that. That is so embarrassing. But I did. And it doesn't mean I shouldn't in the future avoid doing that.

[01:54:33] Like now I know better. So I'm going to be better. Yeah. So like that's, that's all you can do and not talking about it. I'm sorry. That's the coward's way out. Avoiding the subject. It is a coward's way out. Pretending it's just a women's issue. It is everyone's issue. Yeah. Say something, even if you think you're making a mistake and then take the feedback if it's a mistake so you can do better. This is what they teach us in our anti-racism work. You don't get to not say anything.

[01:55:04] Yeah. Like that's the opposite. You can't opt out of society unless, I mean, I guess you can like live off the grid and be a hermit and never talk to another person. But if you want to exist. Don't date women or talk to them in your family. If you want to exist in a society, then you need to own and participate in improving it. Or you're part of the problem. Exactly. And it's, it's because if the men are like, you know, and they're, they're good guys too, like Doyle.

[01:55:32] And they're just sort of pulling back from it. It's like, then you're, then you're falling on your privilege that you don't actually have to have this conversation. Good for you. I don't get that option. And neither does Cordy. And so like, I mean, I just kind of want to somehow give the knowledge I have working with sexual assault survivors and having to have a conversation with them and just pass that on to like the men, like in the world of like, yeah, you ever look in the face of

[01:56:00] a sexual assault survivor, male and female, but mostly women and say like, you definitely need a kit so that we can get the DNA on file. Hopefully it'll be processed. You just, you need the exam to be, to be, to make sure that you're, you're safe. And if you have any injuries, we need to talk about whether or not you want to move forward with pressing charges. Because if you go forward, you're going to be on the stand, not him or her. There's an amazing.

[01:56:30] Which is a nightmare. Amazing. To have to get to have a conversation. It's just transparency. Yeah. But there's this amazing miniseries on Netflix called Unbelievable. And it's about rape, rape investigations and the way that the police deal with it. And some of the realities of being a victim and, and being mistreated by the system. It's not an easy watch. It's not a comfortable watch. No.

[01:56:57] It is excellently performed, beautifully written. The cast is amazing. Merit Weaver, Toni Collette, Caitlin Deaver. Merit Weaver and, um, what's her name who was in, uh, Dumplin' and I can't remember, Danielle something, the other actor who is one of the main characters. It's, it is such an important show. And I have been telling people to watch it for, since it came out several years ago. It's so good.

[01:57:26] I think every man needs to watch it. Yeah. And, and I, I, I do have a very nice colleague that I am, I am good friends with and he doesn't like to watch anything with violence against women. Um, and then he's like, I just don't like it. And I said, that's not really up to you though, is it? Also, that particular movie doesn't show violence against women. Yeah. Like he's thinking of it. It's the justice system that commits the violence. Exactly.

[01:57:53] So it's, you know, but it's, it's, it's one of those things where it's like, you don't get to look away. Like this isn't like, cause women are the ones watching it and we're not the target audience. Like we're not the ones who need the education for the most part. Exactly. I mean, it helps to know, but for me, the big realization for me came in law school when I read Susan Faludi's book, Real Rape.

[01:58:16] And what that book is about is the difference between the way that we perceive what rape is, like people, what you think it might be and what the court thinks it is and what it is to prove rape in court and how it's defined and how different that is from what you might think counts as rape. And it, it was an eyeopening and disturbing read, but I recommend it to people all the time because I'm like, it's not what you think it is.

[01:58:44] Like the court and that book is out of date, but it's still really, really good. This is another time I wish that Kara was here. She has a lot of experience with these kinds of cases. Kara does a lot of, yeah, great work. Yeah. I've, I've only done like the, the advocacy piece and being there with them. And I have met some truly wonderful police officers when I did that work. And I have met such monsters at that where like, I thought I was going to get arrested because I was getting salty.

[01:59:14] I mean, like, I like, you know, but you know, it's just something that is constantly prevalent. And you know, I'm, I know, like, I know like these great guys out there, obviously the ones listening to this podcast are, and it's like, this is how you show up. Yeah. Make a mistake, man. That's, it's cool. Like move on. Improve your life. Yeah. Like let's, the silence isn't the answer. And I got to tell you, when I see the women's marches and the men are there with their signs,

[01:59:42] that's kind of awesome and sexy and cool. We like those guys. Like, you know, it's just. If you have kids, don't just talk to your daughter about protecting herself from men. Talk to your sons about not being perpetrators and being allies and looking out for bad behavior and calling out other men because it starts when they're in middle school, right? Oh my gosh. Yeah. Like if you think your kid is too young to even know what rape is, they're not. They already know. No.

[02:00:12] There is a book that I give to many of my friends with their little toddlers. It's called, I have to look it up, but I order it for them all the time. It's on my Amazon thing. Um, but it talks about, uh, touch and bodily autonomy for like three and four year olds. At a nice level that they can understand. Yeah. Let's put that in the show notes. Yes, absolutely. I'll look it up. And I got to say like all, I mean, my friends are my friends, so they, they, they expect my DEI books.

[02:00:42] Um, but like I have, I have one pair of friends who live in Northern California and I gave it to them for their son when he was two and a half. Um, and they said it's still his favorite book, like four years later. Can we read the touching book on this book? Yeah. Like, I mean, they love it because it's teaching kids like, you know, like don't let people touch you. Like, you know, cause we want to, we want to protect children from that too. And starting at a young age, he loves it.

[02:01:11] But on episode four, not shocking that a surgeon thinks he's gone and decides to change medicine. I was like, that fits. Um, shout out, love all my surgeons, but, um, I've worked with you. You guys are, you guys are tough in the personality department. It's a career that attracts people with a certain God complex. And you kind of have to be a little insane to be like, I could cut someone open and fix some stuff. Like that's crazy.

[02:01:39] You, you have to have a little bit of sociopathic traits in you and it's necessary. Yeah. Honestly, it's necessary to have to work in a hospital. You need to have it cause you, you need to be able to distance yourself for a good thing. Yeah. To be able to cut someone open, you have to dehumanize them a little bit in order to help them. Exactly. It's, um, otherwise your surgeon's breaking down in tears as they're trying to do the appendectomy. Like that's no one's benefiting. Um, but that's what they do day in and day out. So like, that's, it builds that in there.

[02:02:08] I did like from episode three, the Doyle said Frankie, the tripod. Oh yeah. I don't know why it got me. It got me. All of Doyle's social connections sound like, like bookies to me. They all sound like, like side characters from mafia movies. Like out of, out of Jersey. Shores. Yeah. It's just, he's like, he's like, she's like, why are they calling the tripod?

[02:02:39] And then she's like, ew. Yeah. Like I'm with you. I, the more Cordy's on this show too. I'm like, I relate to her as like my soul sister. You both have a refreshing directness, which I really do enjoy. Um, I thought her and Doyle's conversation about his crappy apartment versus her crappy apartment was so funny. And she's like, mine isn't this gross. This smells like bong water. And I was like, I've been in apartments like that.

[02:03:10] Yeah. I have said that. Like this is nasty. Yeah. And he's like, no, it's not that bad. It's just, oh God, it was so funny. Yes. I do have different variables of like what actually bothers me. So I don't think I would be as blunt all the time. Like Cordy is like, I mean, she's a little exaggerated. Yeah. Like, yeah, I'm like, it doesn't really bother me. It's like, whatever. Yeah. If I went to a guy's apartment and smelled like bong water, I would absolutely tell them.

[02:03:39] I have told guys I've dated that I don't appreciate their lack of decor. Their one bath towel. I'm like, I've been verbal. I'm like, okay, bachelor. Yeah. Someone needs a home ec class, huh? It's a recurring theme on one of my favorite shows, which is Queer Eye, where they go to like the person's apartment and they're like, you don't bring girls here, do you? Well, they say women. They're like, you're not bringing a woman.

[02:04:08] Advocating for women everywhere, even if they're not sleeping with them. They're like, no woman wants to come feel sexy in this room. Like, they're always like. Facts. They're like. Facts. No one wants to take off their clothes in this room. It's gross. Yep. And the guy's always like. And I'm like, yeah, they're 100% right. It's gross in there. I would not get naked in that room. They are. I did like. That sort of reminds me of. There was a funny video. And for the life of me, I can't remember his name.

[02:04:37] But he was saying. He was a gay man who was saying. He's like, you guys don't want to do away with gay marriage. Because guess what? We'll marry your women. We're going to marry your women. And we actually get along with them really well. And I was like, oh my God, that would be wonderful. Yeah. I've had a lot of gay guy friends that I would happily cohabitate with. Seriously. Same. Let's get some, you know, benefits of, you know, being married and stuff like that. Let's cuddle but no sex. Like, that's great. Exactly.

[02:05:07] And they have emotional intelligence and stuff. They could probably help me put on my makeup better. Yeah. Oh my God. Yeah. My clothes and everything. But yeah. And just emotional intelligence. Funny. Clever. Brilliant. Good hygiene. So, yeah. It's amazing how much the emotional intelligence goes up when they're not interested in having sex with women. It completely changes the way they relate to you. Yeah. There's capabilities in there. That's true.

[02:05:36] But that was all I sort of had for the episode. Yeah. What are you, Penny? I had a couple of little things. One is that the mystique of, like, dating and marrying a doctor in pop culture is so outdated. Oh my God. Like, now all I think about when I think about dating a doctor is how they're, like, never available. They work crazy hours. Their lives are so hard. Like, maybe if they're, like, a partner in a private practice, they're a great catch.

[02:06:05] But, like, any doctor that's in the early part of their career, they don't have time for you. It's not worth dating them. No? I dated doctors. And it was like, I can see you in three weeks. Like, it's... Yes. I agree. I would only ever date a woman doctor, I guess. It's a nightmare. I've dated many doctors, and it was... Yeah. Our personalities just don't mesh. There were a whole bunch of jokes in episode four about the coffee being bad. I don't know where they're going with that.

[02:06:35] I was like, why are we talking about the coffee so much? Apparently, Angel drinks coffee even though he's a vampire. Yeah. I did find it funny that even vampires fall susceptible to the caffeine curse. Yeah. And, like, Cordy's like, we can't talk to him until he's had his coffee. I'm like, uh-huh. It's just... It's so not hard to make a decent cup of coffee. And, like, I understand they're strapped for cash, but coffee filters are super cheap. Like... I know. Oh.

[02:07:03] She said it was last week's coffee, so maybe that was why. Yeah, but, like, come on, people. Because later in the episode, she's, like, making another pot of coffee with a dirty filter. I'm like, this is unacceptable. I know. They should have done what you did at the lake house and, like, put it and make it iced coffee. Yeah. That's what you do with old coffee. You put it in the fridge, and then later you have iced coffee. Yeah. Maybe, like, Angel can mix it in with his blood. Like, I don't know. Like... Caffeinate it.

[02:07:27] I think there might be at some point that Spike is like, I like to put coffee in the blood or something. Oh, no. He likes to put crackers in his blood. And Spike likes human food, which I always found very funny and very oddly relatable. He's famously a fan of the Blooming Onion. Yes. Yes, yes. When Angel decapitates the doctor, Melissa is so relieved that she hugs Angel. To me, that didn't feel right.

[02:07:55] I was like, I don't think she wants to hug any man, even the one who just saved her. A hundred percent. I don't see that happening. As refreshing as it must have been to have a man be involved with women-related crimes. Like, hey, men are paying attention. Yeah, I don't think a hug's happening. Working with survivors of violence. Yeah, they don't want anyone touching you. Like, that's just... You're too hyped up. You're too scared. Your fight and flight is actually a little dangerous, to be honest. Yeah.

[02:08:25] Usually give people more space, not less, because their fight or flight needs to calm down. But, yeah. No, I'm with you. That seemed very cheesy. And very much written by a man. Sorry, guys. Because, like, any woman's like, I don't want to hug a stranger. Yeah. It's time for pop culture references.

[02:08:46] So, in episode 103, Oz says, yeah, your buddy Spike dug up Sunnydale looking for it, but he got a fistful of Buffy and left it behind. That's my impression of Oz. It's terrible. Sorry, Subdraud. This could be a reference to the Western A Fistful of Dollars. Nice. I can see him quoting that.

[02:09:10] Cordelia says to Doyle, I think the trick is laying off the ale before you start quoting Angela's Ashes and weeping like a baby man. Angela's Ashes is Frank McCourt's autobiography about his childhood in Limerick, Ireland. And really sad. Spike says of Angel, quick to the Angelmobile. Oh, whoops. Spike says to Angel, quickly to the Angelmobile. Away.

[02:09:39] Another Batman reference. I caught that. Cordelia says, it's daylight. You're ringless. And unless you plan on changing the act to Human Torch, I don't think so. A reference to the Fantastic Four. While talking about Angela's Ashes with Doyle in In the Dark, Cordelia says, I doubt very much that the main characters are Betty and Barney Rubble.

[02:10:07] As you so vehemently insisted last night. Also, I don't think Oz appreciated being called my little bam bam all night. I do wish we had that scene. You're right. Betty and Barney Rubble are characters from the cartoon The Flintstones and Bam Bam is their child. Oh, that must have been amazing.

[02:10:32] Cordelia references the fashion designer Versace in In the Dark when she says, since when did you get all Versace about accessorizing? Cordelia says to Doyle that the only way she'll go on a cruise with him is in an alternate universe where he turns into the actor Matthew McConaughey. All right, all right. Yeah. All right, all right, all right.

[02:10:58] I used to not get the Matthew McConaughey thing, but in recent years I've sort of come around on him. Yeah. He's another squishy one. Coddles. Spike calls Angel a white hat, a reference to classic Westerns in which the heroes would often wear white hats while the villains usually wore black hats. The term is also used in the episode The Wish, which is Buffy season three, when a vampire hunter group is known as the white hats.

[02:11:25] That term also went on to be used in the show Scandal. Oh, yeah. Very famously. God, I haven't thought about Scandal in a long time. Oh. Confronting Spike as he wrecks Angel's apartment in search of the gem of Amara, Cordelia refers to a 1994 incident in which the actor Johnny Depp was arrested in connection with some serious damage to an NYC hotel suite.

[02:11:49] While torturing Angel, Marcus quotes the play Hamlet by Shakespeare, in case you didn't know that. A 1600 play. The year 1600. Act two, scene two. There is nothing either bad or good, but thinking makes it so. Spike at one point says, Lucy, I'm home, which is a reference to the sitcom I Love Lucy, which ran from 1951 to 1957.

[02:12:17] Oz's van has a sticker of the band Nick Cave and the Bad Seeds. Nick Cave is just extremely, extremely avant-garde and cool, so of course that's who Oz is into. A theater marquee in the background displays the 1999 film titles Deep Blue Sea and The Sixth Sense. I really love the Deep Blue Sea.

[02:12:41] Also, more and more, I feel like Spike would just be a great addition to our friend group. I'm like, he likes junk food, he watches all the cool stuff, he's funny. We just have to work on him not killing us. Yeah, the violence is the problem. The no soul thing is a little tricky. In episode 104, Doyle says, and people who need people are the luckiest.

[02:13:11] Oh, these lyrics are from the song People, written by Bob Merrill and Jewel Stein, which was sung by Barbara Streisand in Funny Girl. Have you ever seen it? Yeah, classic. Cordelia says, I don't get it. This guy has a lot to lose. What is it about Melissa that's got him going all OJ here? Oh, I missed that. In the same episode, Kate says, they're the law firm.

[02:13:41] I did like this quote. This one I got. In the same episode, Kate says, they're the law firm that Johnny Cochran is too ethical to join. Johnny Cochran was a lawyer who defended OJ Simpson. Patsy Cline's I Fall to Pieces. A season one episode of Angel was titled I Fall to Pieces after her song. Interesting. It's a beautiful song. I really like it. Mm-hmm. On to trivia.

[02:14:11] And in episode 103, despite editing five minutes out of the episode, when it was aired in the UK, it angered the ITC due to the violence and adult themes. The network quickly moved it to a later time slot than its usual 6 p.m., which does seem really early for a show this dark. That does. Yeah. I don't think I ever watched it that early.

[02:14:39] I could have sworn it was on like, it might have been time zone things. Like it might have been like a different country. Yeah, it was in the UK. And they still aired it that earlier? I know, that's crazy. I don't blame the UK. That's weird. Spike's first appearance in the script for In the Dark is described in the stage directions as, now we see who this narrator is. It's Spike, perched high overhead on a rooftop ledge, looking down on the alley like some living gargoyle, having the time of his life.

[02:15:11] Accurate. He did a good job. Spike referring to Angel as a big fluffy puppy with bad teeth is similar to Buffy's comment in The Harsh Light of Day, where she tells Parker that the bite Angel gave her was given to her by an angry puppy. Interestingly, Vampire Willow also refers to Angel as puppy in The Wish. Yeah.

[02:15:34] Cordelia tries to give Doyle some idea of what they're up against with Spike, and her catalog of evilness includes the whole deal with the arm in a box. This is a reference to Spike and Drusilla releasing the demon judge during the events in Surprise and Innocence, Buffy Season 2. Angel practicing Tai Chi with the accompanying score is poignantly evocative. Somebody put some opinion into this trivia.

[02:15:59] Is poignantly evocative of his long, painful rehabilitation after being returned to Sunnydale in Faith, Hope, and Trick, 1998, Buffy Season 3. Bringing him pig's blood in Band Candy, one of my all-time favorite episodes, Buffy for the first time sees Angel still in significant pain but clearly on the mend, practicing the forms with utter concentration.

[02:16:22] In Revelations, later that season, they have regular training sessions together during which they are both keenly aware that Angel's physical health has vastly improved. In this episode... Ooh, which part? Yeah. In this episode, Angel is clearly trying to work through his anguish at losing the Slayer made freshly acute by the arrival of Oz. There's so much opinion in the way this is written. I love it. I know.

[02:16:47] The expectation that Angel's kata is being interrupted by a phone call from Buffy is reinforced by the initial silence on the line, reminiscent of the silent call he made to her near the end of the episode City Of, which she answered unaware in The Freshman. There we go. In episode 104, there are scenes where the evil doctor... Yes. The evil doctor is prowling around an apartment complex.

[02:17:16] This location is actually the historic Los Altos Apartments of Los Angeles and later becomes the exterior model for Angel's Hyperion Hotel, where Angel takes up residence in the future. A little tiny spoiler, but yeah. Andy Umberger... Umberger? Umberger?

[02:17:44] Who plays the doctor in this episode, also guest starred as DeHoffrin. That's the name I remember. That's the name you can't write. I speak demon very well. On Buffy the Vampire Slayer in 1997. He also guest starred in the Joss Whedon series Firefly.

[02:18:05] This is not the first time that Cordelia finds herself locked in a basement while her companion duct tapes around the door to prevent pieces of the bad guy from crawling underneath. In season 2 of Buffy, What's My Line?

[02:18:19] Part 1 from 1997, Cordy and Xander barricaded themselves in the summer's basement to escape, oh, an assassin demon able to take human form, but who is actually composed entirely of thousands upon thousands of mealworms. The two later kill the assassin by trapping the mealworm form in glue and stomping on him. I completely forgot that! It's so gross. I must have blocked that out! It's so gross.

[02:18:51] Dialogue between Cordelia and Doyle suggests that, part of at least, this episode takes place a month after City Of. More specifically, Cordy mentions that she has been working for Angel for a month. That makes sense. A stage direction for I Fall to Pieces read, Back to Doyle! He's in pain, but not a writhing, drooling kind of pain.

[02:19:22] God bless the actors and actresses. I couldn't do it. I would be laughing all the time. The other amazing, talented people. Amazing. So, now it's time. Does it still slay? Unfortunately for me, it does. Unfortunately, I think we're going back to the Dark Ages a little bit.

[02:19:47] And, yeah, in 2025, stalking, torture, violence, children being attacked, women being attacked, systems failing us. We need a hero. Yeah. Uncomfortably still slaying. Super relevant. Yeah, but you. I think episode three is the superior episode of the two. Episode four, like we said earlier, is sort of weak.

[02:20:17] But the themes are incredibly relevant. And the doctor who can dismember his own parts is creepy and unique. And I haven't seen that on any other show. Yeah. I haven't either. That's a good point of like, it's really, like someone watched The Addams Family and was like, we need to make the thing a whole body. An evil.

[02:20:46] So evil. Yeah. An evil because thing is actually very nice. Yeah. Yeah. Totally agree. So we don't usually have a news section because the show is 25 years old, but the world is the world right now. And things being what they are, Sam and I wanted to just talk a little bit about how we're doing and what's going on in the world.

[02:21:15] And also just I want to say that while this isn't a politics podcast, it's not like Pod Save America or something like that where they talk all about politics. We are going to share our truths and we're not going to pretend that we don't have political opinions. And sometimes these shows, often these shows, bring up themes and stories that really read on current events.

[02:21:40] And this is a really good example because Trump just rolled back protections for women in the workplace, setting civil rights for women back decades. And everything that he has promised and everything that Project 2025 tells us is that we cannot expect his administration to protect women or anyone really, except for billionaires in any way.

[02:22:11] And I'm sad. I'm really, really sad about it. Yeah. I'm like getting teary as you're describing it, Penny. Yeah. Like I'm going to try not to cry. It's been a week. Like I'm a psychologist and I, you know, I sit with people's pain all week.

[02:22:32] And it has been really hard to just sit with people's fear and just know that they're true. I mean, I think if people aren't afraid or scared right now, I think that's a privilege and hold on to it because a lot of people are. And there's ice raids that are happening. And I'm worried about family and friends.

[02:22:57] We just had ice raids in Boston, Chicago, L.A., New York City. And, you know, the fact that kids are afraid in school. And one of my friends, their school sent home a letter to the parents saying that we're going to protect them. I work with people with disabilities. I work in a hospital. They're scared. They're sad. I work with people of color. They're scared. They're sad. It's not politics for me. It's human rights.

[02:23:27] And, you know, people who just don't want to talk about it and don't want to sit with it, boy, are you lucky. And I'm not talking about the people taking breaks. We please take breaks when you need to. And I'm grateful that Penny was like, yeah, let's just name what's the elephant sitting on everyone's chest this week.

[02:23:48] Because it'd be disingenuous to just ignore what's happening to so many people, especially on a podcast about a show of women's rights and LGBTQ plus rights and equality and just everything. You know, anti-racism. Yeah, like just it's, you know, I like to think Buffy and Angel would be first in line to lead the resistance. And there's time.

[02:24:17] There's time to be in the resistance and we're not giving up. I think the pain that I sit with is a lot of moral injury of this is happening in our country. And we're allowing it. But we don't like it and everything. And how it's happening is really bad. And we're just starting to see it. And just the humans that I'm facing.

[02:24:43] Like everyone who is like, no, I don't care about this or it doesn't bother me. I just want to be like, hey, if I have my patients sign a release, can you come and sit in our sessions? Because I'm crying every day this week. Like, because people, good people are in pain and scared and they aren't overreacting as much as people might wish they were. People in California are suffering, like, catastrophically. And we have a friend, Karen, who's there.

[02:25:13] And, you know, I said, like, you know, I mean, you're managing a natural disaster right now. And she rightfully so was like, it's not a natural disaster. This is man-made. And she's right. And, you know, this is done on purpose with climate change. And, you know, everything about it, the CDC, all the federal agencies aren't allowed to talk to people right now, at least for the next 90 days. There's an avian flu on its way over here.

[02:25:41] We need to be keeping the public up to date on what's going on in health. We can't do that right now. And just the sheer amount of things trickling down. All these safeties are being taken away and people are scared and their fear is valid and there is no protection. So I'm, like, devastated just sitting with all the pain. And it's really difficult to know that so many people are scared and afraid.

[02:26:10] And there's nothing we can do systemically. I am determined to fight. I mean, I've chucked in on my friends who are transgendered. And I can't imagine what it's like for them and everything that's going on. And I had asked them, like, you know, are you going to go to a protest? Are you going to get involved? And, you know, how can I do it? And they said, yeah, I'm going to a protest and getting involved. I don't have another choice.

[02:26:40] So, you know, that's just sort of stuck with me. So, yeah, I'm glad that we have the space. And obviously, it's going to be like every episode. But it's just, you know, I'm in pain. I know, like, Penny's in pain. And it's, you're not alone. And, you know, we can post some resources for people. Don't let the bad guys win. Like, there's resources for everyone. And we'll post those in the show notes. You're not alone. And we will be here.

[02:27:08] And we will continue to be here giving you your Slayer encouragement. And we're not going anywhere. And we hope you stay here, too, because you're important, too. And while we're not going to pretend that these things aren't happening, we're also going to make a very concerted effort to remember that in an oppressive system, joy is an act of resistance. And we are going to enjoy these shows that we love.

[02:27:37] And we're going to enjoy hearing from our listeners. And we're going to enjoy getting on our computers and talking to each other about the show. And I am not going to let anyone take that away from me. And if you want to talk about this stuff but you don't want us to read it on the podcast, like, just write to us at the Still Slaying feedback, whatever. It's in the show notes. And start a conversation. We'll talk to you.

[02:28:06] If you feel like you don't have anyone to talk to. If you live somewhere where everyone around you is, you know, happy with what this administration is doing and you need to talk to someone, like, reach out. Please. Yeah. I mean, I'm going to put resources in. Please talk to us. It feels so heavy because it is. And it's okay. It's okay to take breaks. It's necessary to take breaks. And make sure you celebrate the joy.

[02:28:33] If you have any questions, you know, especially if you're in an area that doesn't support you and you're scared, email us. And, you know, we'll do some research to find you some resources. We'll do what we can. Yeah. Yeah. Community. Community is what's going to get us through this. Just like in the domestic violence situation that we are talking about all this episode, isolation is a tool of the oppressor. So form community.

[02:29:02] Find like-minded people. Bond together with them. Hang on to the people you love. Don't let them take that away from you. No. Yeah. Celebrate things. That's what we're fighting for is to be able to have joy and celebrate. Great. And please don't let my tearful recollection stop you from talking to your therapist about it. Please do talk to your therapist about it. Please don't avoid it. If anything, we're going through it with you.

[02:29:30] And, you know, as painful as it is to hear it as a clinician, it is reinforcing to know that I'm telling someone that they're not alone in their pain. So, you know, like Penny was saying, community, share, reach out. Now is a great time to get a therapist if you haven't gotten one before. And in the spirit of our delightful podcast that Penny and Kara started and is so beautiful, I looked up some quotes from Buffy to inspire us.

[02:30:02] Buffy says, power. I have it. They don't. This bothers them. That is true on so many levels, guys. The government is taking away human rights systemically. They do need us. Yeah. To complete it. We are the ones with the power. They wouldn't be trying to silence us so vigorously if our voices didn't matter. Yep. Absolutely.

[02:30:30] And then Buffy says, we'll go be heroes. Let's go and be heroes. Celebrate the joy. And then Angel says, from season two, no weapons, no friends, no hope. Take all that away. And what's left? Me. Remember Buffy. Giles, you have a plan? Buffy. I am the plan.

[02:30:58] Buffy says, I always find a way. I'm the thing that monsters have nightmares about. That's true. Strong is fighting. This is Buffy. Strong is fighting. It's hard and it's painful and it's every day. And it's what we have to do. And we can do it together. Some of this resonating with anyone? Buffy. I make it through this. And the next thing. And the next thing.

[02:31:28] And maybe one day I turn around and realize I'm ready. Buffy. There you go. Buffy. I'm beyond tired. I'm beyond scared. I'm standing on the mouth of hell and it's going to swallow me whole. And it'll choke on me. We're not ready. They're not ready. I recognize that one. That's season seven. Yeah, right? I do too. And this is from Anya. When it's really something that matters, they fight.

[02:31:58] I mean, they're lame morons for fighting. But they do. They keep on fighting and they never quit. And so I guess I will keep fighting too. Well, this one's a little bit of a spoiler. So we won't do that one. Buffy. Make your choices. Are you ready to be strong? So that's our Buffy giving us very still slang quotes for 2025. 2025.

[02:32:27] Our leader. Speaking of community and connecting to people, let's go over to the bronze and hear from some of our listeners. Bronze things. Things of bronze. This first one is from Karen about episode 103 who humorously says, I'm probably too late, but Spike's narration in the beginning is the best part of this episode. I was dying. And yeah, it was hilarious.

[02:32:56] So true. So true. So true. I think he would be our friend if we could just work on the pesky violence and murder thing. I mean, I mean, we deal with people who might murder us every day and they have souls, apparently. We can work with you, Spike. Becky. Hey. Oh, hey, Becky. Hey, hey. I swear I tried to keep this short. It's okay, Becky. It's us. We love you anyway. Yeah. Or because of it or something. Yeah.

[02:33:27] Yeah. Yeah. You're one of us. One of us. Okay. Becky says, love this opening. Spike narrating the convo between Rachel and Angel was hilarious. No, not the hair. Never the hair. Angel is a mysterious black clad hunk of a night thing. Though. The opening song is one of my all time favorite TV intro songs of all time. Agreed.

[02:33:55] I forgot how much I like Doyle. He and Cordelia are so funny together. Her telling Oz Doyle air quotes works here. That was a good one. The conversation between them when she's filling him in on Spike was great. Fun to hear a recount of some of the past villains from Buffy. Hashtag team Doydelia. Oh, okay. You like those two together? Seth Green's interactions as Oz are always perfect.

[02:34:24] His delivery of every line is spot on. I agree with y'all that an Oz spinoff would have been amazing. When he busts in driving his van and the crossbows aimed at Spike. So cool. Spike and Angel together again. Their relationship throughout the remainder of this series reminds me of the Joker and Batman. Foes, but they need each other and are emotionally dependent on each other. That's a really good analogy. Yeah, I like that.

[02:34:53] The Rachel story was so sad. Was her mentioning the freaky church on Sunset a callback to when Buffy ran away to LA? Oh! I hadn't thought about that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think you're onto something, Becky. The cycle of abuse is a horrible thing and I am glad she got away in the end. That's how we'll all see it. I think I like that. That's my head panic. She's happy. I like it.

[02:35:22] Doyle's acquaintances has some interesting names. I love the subtle ways they show Angel's deliberation about the ring. When I first saw this episode, I was upset that he chose to destroy the ring. On second watch, I think it fits his character that he did. To prevent the possibility of it getting into anyone else's hands, but also to protect the people he cares about should he become Angelus again. Oh, good point.

[02:35:49] Glad he got to bask in the sun for a little while, though. Yeah, I hadn't thought about the Angelus thing. The torture scenes were brutal. Marcus is gross, especially the eating the kids thing. I don't know how Angel withstood all that pain. Nice twist that he ended up with the ring and led to a really cool scene when Angel took him out off the pier. Spike was hilarious with his impatience about getting started and Angel not giving up the ring. Some great witty dialogue between the two.

[02:36:19] His monologue about being a loner and such only to end up with his hair on fire was hilarious. It was great. The rooftop scene's CGI was not great. Lol. Yeah, that kind of took me out of it for a second. Last point is a Charisma Carpenter hair appreciation note. That's some beautiful hair. That's true. When she spins around and it all flows past. Oh, my gosh. Goals.

[02:36:47] I think Spike mentions that, too. He's like, you look great, Cordelia. Yeah, he's like, you look great. Look at the hair. And I was like, I think he says look at the hair. I was like, mm-hmm. Favorite quotes? Cordelia saying Oz's name over and over again was great. Doyle's response. Let me take a stab at this. But you'd be Oz? Oz asking Angel as the detective, does he have a hat and gun? Cordy, just fangs.

[02:37:15] Cordelia saying Doyle would celebrate the opening of a mailbox with a drink down at the pub. Angel to Oz, thanks for your help. You're the key. Oz, you're incredibly pale. He was in that scene. Seth Green is very pale. But he looked like he had a tan compared to David Boreanaz. They really got that pale on him.

[02:37:46] Angel about his torture. This was a good quote. One more hot poker and I was giving him everything. The ring, your mom, everything. Who is your mom? I have not done an Angel rewatch before, so this is exciting. Oh, I forgot how great this show could be. Y'all are killing it with the podcast, as always, and it's adding to my enjoyment of rewatching. Oh. Oh. Tell Sam I love her laugh. Grrr.

[02:38:16] Arr. Oh, thank you. Becky, you're so awesome. We'll have to have her back on soon. I love it. Yes, that would be amazing. We heard from our good buddy, Coffee and Vodka, who said about this episode, greetings fellow sunlit slayers. It's funny the tropes you miss, like the heroes arriving in the nick of time and no honor among thieves. Even more missed were the Oz exchanges with Angel and Cordelia. My kind of conversation.

[02:38:44] Spike's admission of his plan going awry because of his impatience went a long way to making the harsh light of day more acceptable. No one could be that stupid. I thought. Turned out, Spike, through his own admission, was. Liked all of it from the no-holds-barred torture, humor, and neatly tied off ending. All of it except for Angel's explanation as to why he couldn't keep the ring.

[02:39:08] It was obvious why he couldn't, plot-wise, but would have been much better to say that the Gem of Amaro would have been a beacon calling vamps near and far to L.A., endangering the lives of everyone there. Otherwise, a highly enjoyable ep. Yeah, that would have been a good point in addition to the other points. Yeah, that's a good point. Yeah. I think all these are good reasons. He gives it four flaming angels, found fates, and sandy punctured pedos out of five. Peace and take care, copy and vodka.

[02:39:38] That's awesome. We have voicemails from Steve for both of the episodes, so I'll play the 103 message first. Hello, Still Slaying. This is Steve, and I'm watching Angel Season 1, Episode 2, Lonely Hearts. I'm trying to get caught up with the podcast. I'm going to do In the Dark as a live Steve, but I just noticed the next anachronistic thing that we don't have here 25 years later, 26 years later.

[02:40:07] Angel just used a phone book attached to a payphone to find someone's address. All right, here we go with In the Dark, second part of, in the harsh light of, from the harsh light of date. What was the Buffy episode called? Oh, and Angel there, right on time to rescue the girl. Oh, that's right. The best monologue by Spike right here. Big fluffy puppy with bad teeth. Oh, and guest starring Seth Green, of course. Oz even know where they are. I don't remember any of that.

[02:40:37] The exchange between Oz and Cordelia. We done? Completely. Of course, Doyle and Angel know what the general Mara is, but Cordelia doesn't, so it's got to be explained to her. I've never read Angela's actions, and Doyle hungover is just priceless. I forgot about what happens with the storyline with Rachel, but here Spike is about to kidnap Angel. Or maybe not. Nobody can burn the place to the ground. Okay, Doyle's place it is. Oh, meanwhile, back at Rachel's.

[02:41:03] Okay, Angel trying to get Rachel back on track, and now we are back with Cordelia and Doyle, and she's telling him about Spike. Start with Manny the Pig and work your way down. And here's Angel working his way down. Ooh, and Spike leads him into a trap. Well, Marcus has some insight. He can tell that Angel's known love and that he has a soul. Spike just called Angel his sire. I can't remember if Drusilla or Angel sired Spike. He has called Angel his Yoda, his sire before. Ooh, and Spike tells Angel about Parker.

[02:41:32] Now Spike is in Angel's apartment, so apparently he can enter, vampires can enter other vampires' establishments. Oh, I forgot that Spike uses Angel being kidnapped and tries to get Cordelia and Doyle to find the ring. Oh, and Spike rescues Marcus from the stake that Angel had in his feet. Oh, Doyle can use his demon smell to find it. Oh, and Oz's van, I forgot about this. Did give him the real ring, so of course Marcus took it.

[02:41:58] And Spike ranting until he walks into the bullet hole sunlight. So how do they know that Marcus took the ring? I guess they do. They figured it out. I guess. I don't know. He's just going to give up and leave. Oh, and Angel out of the van on fire, leaping over into the water. Oh, and Angel basically makes short work with Marcus, takes the ring off him, and he goes to dust. Oz, you're incredibly pale. And he smashes the ring at the end of the day.

[02:42:26] And we get closure of the Rachel storyline that she found Faith. Not the vampire slayer Faith, some actual Faith. All right, talk to you next week. Thank you so much, Steve. That's awesome, Steve. Yeah, you're right. I caught that too when he pointed that out. I think it's just a mess up in the show. Technically, Angel is Spike's grandsire. I think JW has even spoken about this.

[02:42:56] He tried to rationalize it away and be like, technically he's his sire because he sired Drusilla, who sired Spike. But you're totally right. That's a weird thing. That's an inconsistency in the writing. Yes. Yeah. All right. On to the feedback for episode 104. From Becky, I forgot how creepy this one was. Though dude tossing his teeth at Angel was very funny. Yeah, that was hilarious. I missed that part.

[02:43:24] The teeth were so gross. And then they just like clomped onto Angel's arm and it just, it looked farcical. And it's the kind of thing that I don't even know if modern CGI or Frank or, you know, like Greg Nicotero could have made that look good. It was just goofy. No, I do want that power though. Can you imagine someone come up to you and they're just being all creepy and you just eject your teeth onto them?

[02:43:52] Like, I'd pay money. Oh, that's so unhygienic. I'd pay money to have detachable teeth that can actually become a weapon. Boy, would people leave you alone. I said that. Everyone would leave you alone. Yeah. I want that power. Karen says, best quotes, Doyle saying, maybe I'm a little attracted. Karen adds a couple of laugh cry emojis.

[02:44:20] And then Melissa saying, we think you should go by Penji. It suits you. About the woman at the office with her cake misspelled. And then Karen adds a parentheses. Penny, please don't change your name. No. No plans to change my name. I'm pretty happy with the name Penny. Cordy says, he ever strike you as a big dangerous creep? Her questioning technique seems terrible, but it actually works. Question mark. Love that her directness is helpful.

[02:44:50] I mean, usually directness is. I don't think I would have phrased it that way, but I would appreciate it if she asked me that question. It reminds me of the time in Buffy season three when they're trying to figure out who's going to murder people at the high school. And Willow writes up these questions for them all. And Cordy's like, who are you planning on murdering a bunch of people today? No subterfuge.

[02:45:20] No, no filter. No filter. No filter and respect. I like it. Oh my goodness. And then also for the email from Coffee and Vodka. Yeah. Greetings, fellow stalked slayers. Oh, a little too close to home there, Coffee and Vodka. No, I'm kidding. Less than 10 minutes in and Doyle's being a perfect pig.

[02:45:48] Cordelia uses the R word. That leaped off the screen at me. Yep. Angel thought it okay to sneak up on a woman in a dark and deserted parking garage. Melissa was power pressured into a date and Cordelia initially excused it, also noting his social status as a surgeon. Putting on my anachronism blinders now to watch the rest of the episode. See, Coffee and Vodka gets it. Like this, so true. See?

[02:46:17] I like the phrase anachronism blinders as well. I think that's going to stick around. I know. That's amazing. A decent creature of the week installment with all the usual privilege and anti-relationship subtext. What if an incel occurred but reimagined by Lovecraft?

[02:46:40] A final, if not novel, solution with the best bit being Melissa coming into her own and fearlessly facing off with her personal creep. A quick question, as I've forgotten. Was Angel given back a working heart and circulatory system in Buffy? Seems like that'd be the only way the Doc's dart would have any effect. It's like the breathing and the sweating. It makes no sense whatsoever. I know.

[02:47:10] You're right, Coffee and Vodka. I know. And finally, I just finished season one of Creature Commandos with similar writing, directing, and on-screen homicidal tendencies. It occurred to me that James Gunn is an unproblematic JW. Thoughts? Interesting. I'll look into that. Yeah. Yeah. I... Yeah. There's a lot of similarities.

[02:47:38] There's a sense of humor similarity there, definitely. Yeah. And action, well-written characters. A little bit of camp. Yeah. Fair... Yeah. I like it. And the comedy aspect, the humor. I think you've called it. And unlike JW, James Gunn has taken responsibility for his previous actions and apologized. And as we've seen, he has done better. Ah, very nice. I like it.

[02:48:07] So, Coffee and Vodka gives the episode Three Men Apart, Eye Cams, and Hands-On House Calls out of Five. Hands-on House Calls! That's a really good phrasing. Oh, my goodness. Peace and take care, Coffee and Vodka. Wonderful as usual. Thank you. That was awesome.

[02:48:36] And we have another voicemail from Steve for Episode Four. Hello, Still Slaying. This is Steve, and this is going to be for Angel. Season One, Episode Four, I Fall to Pieces. I guess you're doubling down this week, huh? Oh, man. Asking for money and Doyle getting a headache. Pin, paper, single ball scotch. Okay, so we meet this week's damsel in distress, and she's taking some pills in the bathroom, and now Angel's meeting her in the dark parking garage. Oh, Cordelia, use of the R word.

[02:49:05] Definitely a late 90s show, not PC today. Oh, Creeper changing this girl's pin number? Come on. You shouldn't do that. I don't remember all this, but I know this guy's got some weird thing that he's able to keep an eye on this girl. Oh, I remember now. And I just said he keeps an eye on her. Cordelia trying to mention a reasonable fee to this woman who needs their help. Oh, his eye is missing, and there's the disembodied eye in her apartment. Ew.

[02:49:34] Do most workplaces just let somebody just hang out there with no reason? I mean, Doyle here with this woman. And we have the next mention of Wolfram at Heart, the lawyer that Johnny, the firm that Johnny Cochran is to, yeah, wouldn't want to be part of. It's kind of a dated reference now, but, I mean, we know who Johnny Cochran was. And Angel has done his homework with this guy. He knows that he's a, how good he is and able to kind of bluff his way through here. And he even had some sort of fake business card already ready with this Jensen name on it.

[02:50:04] Oh, and Cordelia just made an OJ reference. Oh, police officer has to put his hands up, and he has no hands because they're in this girl's apartment. And, of course, the police woman has to go because he thinks he's, yeah, handless. Oh, and his hands just attacked the police officer by themselves. And the hands return home. Okay, they have a special line for this Jensen International Holdings. Got it.

[02:50:29] Oh, this guy just shot Angel with some sort of injection, but does Angel's blood flow? Of course, it does look like Angel's being affected, maybe. Oh, and so the eye goes back into the guy's head, the hand opened the door for him, and now he's in the building. Oh, this guy is really menacing. He's got the scalpel up against Melissa's throat. I don't remember how this ends. Oh, and, of course, Angel's back. Oh, the guy's ear fell off, and I think Angel just knocked his head off, I think. Oh, and Angel cut him up and buried him in concrete.

[02:50:58] Angel, I think I'll stay here and not burst into flames. All right, on to next week. Thanks, Steve. That was great. That was a particularly good love, Steve. Thank you so much. That was very, very good. I appreciate it. All right, that's the end of the main section of the podcast. Stay tuned for The Watcher's Diaries if you want to hear the spoilery parts.

[02:51:23] If you'd like to join the conversation, you can find all of our contact information at podcastica.com and in the show notes for each episode. And, of course, also when you're at podcastica.com, you'll find links to our social media pages and all the other podcastica shows. And as we always talk about, there are so many of them, and they're all good. I am obsessed with Squid Gamecast right now. Loving it. Yes. Same. It's so interesting.

[02:51:52] And that show is so relevant right now when we're in this late stage capitalism. And the rich people are just tromping all over poor people. It's an amazing show. And I love the design of the Squid Game show. I can't get enough of the camera angles and the colors. And, like, it's so beautifully made. Yeah. I concur. I'm obsessed with the episode.

[02:52:21] Like, I listen to them, like, as soon as they come out. The podcast is so great. And I have been watching the Squid Game, re-watching it, because it makes me feel better. Because this is actually a setting where capitalism is happening that I can disengage from. And I can turn off the TV, and there it goes. It goes far away. Yeah. That is a good reason to watch the Squid Game. Yeah. I was like, this doesn't feel as bad as it did in December.

[02:52:50] Oh, that's because I can log out of that. That's a tagline for 2025. Squid Game. The happy place for people. I've also been listening to the Adrenaline Cinema podcast. They're covering the Mayfair witches. I'm not a big fan of it, but I do like the podcasts of it. So I have enjoyed their coverage of the shows.

[02:53:17] And I'm pretty sure they're going to cover Interview with the Vampire with the next season that is supposed to come out this year, I believe. So that's another show I've been listening to lately. Awesome. Yeah. And if you like what we do, give us a five-star rating, a review, or a like, follow, and subscribe. Next time, we'll be covering Buffy Season 4, Episode 4, Fear Itself.

[02:53:46] Thanks, everyone, and... Please, I couldn't get comfortable in here if the floor was lined with mink. I mean, how can you live like this? Well, I didn't until last week. Then I saw what you did with your place, and I just had to call my decorator. No way. My apartment is nowhere near this yucky. It smells like bong water in here. Love it. All right. That is the end of the non-spoiler section.

[02:54:15] And if you want to avoid spoilers, you should stop listening right now. Three, two, one. That's enough time. On to the Watcher's Diaries. Yes. It's too bad we can't sneak a look at the Watcher Diaries. I'm sure it's full of fun facts to know and tell. Yeah. That's too bad. That stuff is private. Also, Giles keeps them in his office, in his personal files.

[02:54:42] Most importantly, it would be wrong. And we can talk all we want about how awesome it is when Spike joins the cast of Angel in season five. Oh my gosh. And they hate each other, but they work together. Oh, it's so fun. Much. I wonder if this was the episode where they really saw how much fun it was having these two away from the Buffy cast. Yeah.

[02:55:07] And they were like, kind of like how JW said that he didn't think that Angel could hold, that David Boreanaz could hold his own show until he saw the fight between him and SMG in season two finale. I wonder if this was when the JW and the other creators were like, you know what, this is probably some of the best interactions we have. This is some comedy gold. We got to come back to this. Spike and Angel is the gift that just keeps on giving.

[02:55:37] But truly, Spike has comedic chemistry with everyone. He's really funny with Buffy. He's funny with Willow. He's funny with Xander. He's funny with Giles. Yes. Very true. He's funny with Anya. He is hilarious. Oh my God. Yes. And can you imagine how much better it would have been if they put Spike in Angel rather than have him have this weird romantic interest and relationship with Buffy? I did not like that.

[02:56:06] And I found it very, I found it toxic when it was happening. And I'm not a fan of it all these times later either. Yeah. I'm not. It's just weird. I was sort of like halfway into it. Like there were aspects of the Spike Buffy thing that made sense to me. Like she was in a really dark place and she's using him.

[02:56:27] And, you know, because she thinks of him as so far below her, she feels like she can like use him for some kind of emotional gratification. But it's actually making her feel worse. All that stuff made sense to me. I really didn't like the violent sex. I think that a lot of people might get the wrong idea from it and think that that's sexy when it really isn't. No, it's self-destructive.

[02:56:54] And yeah, like I just, it's such a weird thing and how they went about it. But yeah, I just, I also like all own, for the most part, I'm not really interested in characters having romantic relationships. There's some exceptions. Like on The Walking Dead, I really like Maggie and Glenn. Oh, I love Maggie and Glenn. Like that's just done so well. Rick and Michonne, mostly, you know.

[02:57:25] But I just, I find that I'm just less interested in them as the two characters become a ship. And that's their whole points of being. And I don't know, it also generally doesn't go well for the female character. I really like romantic relationships when they're of similar genders. Yeah. Like LGBTQ. I find those wonderful to watch and very nuanced.

[02:57:53] And I don't see the disappearance of the individuals in those relationships. It's not the same. I don't know. I have always liked about Buffy and Angel, these two shows, that, you know, Buffy and Angel's love affair was intense and passionate. But it was interesting. The questions raised by a vampire and a slayer being in love were interesting enough to me that it didn't bother me. And then, you know, she's about to get together with Riley.

[02:58:20] And there are times when I'm like, ugh, Riley. And like, ugh, she's dating Riley. Who cares? But they managed to make that interesting as well. Like, they go through some really intense issues. And Riley gets more interesting as time goes on. Yeah. But for the most part, it's not a romance show. Yeah.

[02:58:46] And we were talking, I think, before we started recording about, like, Vampire Diaries is, like, mostly about romance and relationships. And I found it to be, like, a fun show. I watched it. Yeah. But I never rewatched it. I never went back to it. I know. I rewatched the originals. But again, the least interesting part of the originals is the romantic relationships. I like the siblings relationships. Yeah. I find that fascinating and fun.

[02:59:15] Like, a thousand year old, spending a thousand years with your siblings? Jesus Christ. Oh, my God. I, uh, yeah. In general, I'm not a fan of a lot of shows that are, like, soap opera-y that have a lot of romance and romantic intrigue. Like, it's just not really my genre.

[02:59:36] I like shows, like, with, you know, darkness and apocalypses and, you know, larger-than-life problems and people trying to make decisions under horrible circumstances. That's interesting to me. A romance has to be really compelling for me to get excited about it.

[02:59:57] And Maggie and Glenn is a good example because their love is this beacon of hope in the midst of all this just dreck. Just horrible suffering. Yes. And somehow they manage to be sort of wholesome. It's so weird. I know. Yeah, and they very much maintain identities outside of each other. Yeah.

[03:00:22] To the point, like, where they spent, like, half a season when they weren't even, you know, near each other. And, yeah, I just, you know, Maggie and Glenn both, neither one of them ever lost themselves in a relationship-type thing. Yeah. After Glenn dies, I understand Maggie is destroyed by it. And she goes through a long period of grief and anger. All of that makes sense to me.

[03:00:48] But when they rebooted or when they came back with the spinoff Dead City, somehow Maggie's entire personality is about grieving Glenn. It's no longer a thing that happened to her. It is her. And I, it's what, there's a lot of things about Dead City that didn't really ring for me. But that was one of them, is that I felt like Maggie had actually regressed and was less of a character than she was on The Walking Dead.

[03:01:17] Which would be interesting. Because, I mean, like, I'm interested in those characters, kind of similar to Buffy. Like, I would be interested in, like, 25 years later. Oh, my God. I would love to see Buffy 25 years later. Yeah. Yeah. It's like, what happens when you no longer need to fight all the time? And we sort of see that with Carol. Yeah. In the Carols, in the book of Carol. That makes sense to me.

[03:01:44] She's finally having a chance to process it. So I wonder if that sort of happened with Maggie, too. Because she had a fight nonstop until then. And it's like, cool. Now you have to cope with the fact everyone you've loved except for your son is dead. And a handful of friends. And then, like, looking at your son and seeing, like, someone who looks so much like Glenn. I mean, and the questions he has.

[03:02:15] I struggled with her character being written and that was her only identity. And I get, like, she has to go save your son. Yeah. I get that. I didn't like that that was the only thing about her character. And how, like, she was a mother and a widow. Like, that was her main thing. It's like, come on. She had so much more to her. There's so much going on with Maggie in The Walking Dead. And then it's just. Yeah. I don't know. Dead City was really disappointing. There also just were not enough zip lines. And. I know. But, like, the coolest. I am excited for season two.

[03:02:45] I mean, I'll watch it. I do. Yeah. Like, yeah, I know. That's how I feel about the book of Daryl. And I'm really hoping they don't do another Michonne and Rick thing. Yeah. That ended fine. I'm done with that. Yeah. Like, I appreciated it. I mean, it was beautifully done. Some of the best stuff we've ever had for The Walking Dead. I don't really care about them as a couple. I'm glad they're together. Yeah.

[03:03:14] Didn't really care about the rest of it. I care a lot more about them being reunited with their kids. Yeah. Like, and that could have been, like, three episodes. But, like, yeah. Like, they're. I know. I know. So many people loved it. And they loved, again, the episode directed by Danai. Danai Guerrero. Which was, again, beautiful. I was very much in my listener feedback. I'm like, I'm so bored. Yeah. Like. Well, to me, it felt like I'm watching a play. And I was sort of like. Yeah, exactly. That's interesting. I'll watch a play. I know. But, like.

[03:03:44] I don't know. I don't like plays. So, like. I like. This probably explained it. But, like. We sort of see that, right? We see this with Buffy and Angel and them getting to a space. Like, I love season five. Because it's not really about romantic relationships. Yeah. I mean, in the beginning she's with Riley. It's about putting the guys in evil positions. But then he's gone. And it's about Buffy standing on her own two feet. Yeah. Becoming an adult. As opposed to being a child.

[03:04:13] And it's. Season five is maybe the best season of Buffy. It's hard to say. Because season four. I mean, season three is also so awesome. But, like. I love season five. And there's, you know. There's good things in every episode. The final season's really good. Yeah. The final season is really good. I gotta say. Even on the rewatch. I wasn't as annoyed by the beginning Slayers. As I thought I was. Yeah. But, like.

[03:04:41] Some of that stuff just doesn't hold up to 25 years later. But, it's very compelling. Like, the storylines are very compelling. It passed the Bechdel test. Yeah. Like, I mean. It's just. It's just. Yeah. They're very interesting. So, I'm like. I wonder what it would have been like. If Spike had, like. Gone over to Angel before all this stuff. And I also see that. He was very much embedded in the Buffy show. And in Angel. I don't know where he would have fit in with the storylines. Because he didn't need the humor.

[03:05:08] The way he shows up in season five works really well. Yes. Yes. And Lindsay. I did like them quoting Wolfram and Hart in there. Yeah. Oh, I'm so excited to get to more Wolfram and Hart. They. Oh. They're such good villains. Those are my favorite episodes. Oh, my gosh. I love Lindsay and Lila. They're, like. Some of my favorite characters of both of these shows. Like. I don't know. They're just delightful. But, yeah. We have some pretty cool episodes in Angel coming up.

[03:05:38] I'm excited to get to them. I really am. So cool. So with that. I think that's the complete end of our show for today. Yes. Thank you for people. For listening to us. If you're still with us at this point. Like. You're one of us. You're one of us. One of us. Until next time. I'm Penny. And I'm Sam. Keep slaying. Keep slaying.