46: “Rm w/a Vu” (Angel S1E5)

[00:00:53] I'm Penny. I'm Becky. And I'm Sam. For this episode, we're going to be discussing Angel Season 1, Episode 5, Room with a View, written by David Greenwald and JW and directed by Scott McGinnis. This episode originally aired on November 2nd, 1999 to an audience of 3.2 million households.

[00:01:19] Some alternative titles and other languages for this episode were Migration in Finnish, Ghost Story in Hungarian, and my favorite, The Ghost of Maud in Italian. I think that's an epic title. That's great. Just give away all of the secrets, all the twists right in the title. I love that. I love that they do that. They're like, we want no surprises ever.

[00:01:48] So as you can hear, we have Sam back with us today on the podcast, and Becky guesting again, who was with us for the Bring It On episode and did such a good job. Yes. That we just were dying to have her come back and talk about some more Buffyverse stuff. Yes. Welcome. Becky has her own podcast called What's On Tonight, right? Yes.

[00:02:12] We are currently covering The Pit, which is a medical drama on Max. And if you aren't watching it, it is truly incredible. I highly recommend you check it out. And then we are a no-holds-barred podcast. We will get political. We will share it all. So please, please give us a listen. We'd love to have y'all. I love it. I love it.

[00:02:42] I feel like healthcare, unfortunately, is political. As someone who works in a hospital right now, it's like, yeah, especially in America, it's political. It shouldn't be. Yeah, it's hard to avoid the politics of healthcare. It definitely is. And they do a great job with their real-world stories that are happening in the country right now. And doing it in a way that's not an after-school special, but very honest and raw and real.

[00:03:11] So it surprised me how incredible it really is. Plus, Noah Wiley back in a hospital. Everybody who loved him on my ER is going to love him and miss him. Same. I'm a good Noah Wiley fan. Yeah. I started watching all the episodes. I loved, what was the sci-fi show that he did? It was Five Seasons. The Fall? No. No. Alien Invasion.

[00:03:41] Falling Skies. Yes. Falling Skies. I thought that was really inventive and that he was a great sort of like insurgency leader. Yes, very much so. Yeah, I've been inspired by The Pit because I second that. I'm a huge fan of it on Max. I think it's so well done. And yeah, it's phenomenal. I will say, starting to rewatch old episodes of ER, those don't age well. Noah Wiley aged well.

[00:04:11] Oh my goodness. No. Ever. Goodness. Yeah, he looks better than he did when he was 22. Yeah. Yes. He looks amazing these days. Yes. Yes, very much so. All right. Enough current events. Let's talk first about what from the episode was our favorite like so late 90s item. Payphone. Payphone. Oh. Yeah. Payphones. Yeah.

[00:04:39] Payphones always entertain me. Payphones are hilarious. Big one. I miss, I kind of miss them. I miss the anonymity. Like every phone call I make on a smartphone, there's a, there's a record and there's a database and for all I know recordings of all my conversations. Like I miss having a world where we weren't so recorded all the time. Yeah. And having to go to the police station to look up the history of a building and murder.

[00:05:08] As, as, as we see in Supernatural just a few years later, they're able to use the internet a little bit better. Yeah. I was like, where are we going? Oh, oh. I forgot that that's how this used to be. Oh. And speaking of which, getting apartment hunting without a credit score being actively checked out or references called. Which might have just been an in-show thing.

[00:05:37] Thanks to, to Doyle. But I, I was very much surprised by how that was going. We're looking in the paper. Yeah. That's right. That's right. The title of the episode, RM, you know, with W slash A V U is a play on the fact that like, back then there were classified ads in the paper and you paid by the letter. Mm-hmm. So you, people who put an ad up for an apartment being available would do anything they could

[00:06:07] to save characters. Oh. So they, you know, they abbreviated everything. And so sometimes these classified ads would look like gobbledygook. It would just be like, if you couldn't figure out what the abbreviation was, you'd be like, is it, is it, what's a WW? Why is it, that means it has a washer. Why is that two W's? It's just, that's what it means. Like how it's written in like, broke code. Yeah.

[00:06:36] Like, people are like, I need to save money. So I'll just make it, make it a puzzle for people to guess. That's, that's, that's the first hurdle to seeing the, the apartment or the house. It's crazy. So crazy. I love the, um, the answering machine, getting the call and being able to hear the recording. I miss that. Yeah. There are times when I get a call and I don't pick it up.

[00:07:01] It goes to voicemail and then I have to wait for my voicemail to like process it so that I can read the transcript. Cause you know, I don't listen to the voicemail. That was something, when was the last time you listened to a voicemail? Um, every now and then I have to, because the transcript is like an incomprehensible nonsense. I'm like, if my friend has like a little bit of an accent or like, it seems to be doctor's

[00:07:30] offices always have someone who leaves the voicemail as fast as they possibly can. So it just is like, I have to listen to it to be like, is my appointment still happening? I know. I've, I feel like at one point, if we start to read these messages out loud, we're going to be conjuring a demon ourselves. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:07:56] I'm like, if only for the way they say my last name, I'm like. Oh yeah. Your last name is a Yelzebub. Your last name is one of those ones that's not actually hard to pronounce, but I imagine when people look at it, they're like, whoa, that's a lot of letters. Yeah. That's exactly it. That's exactly it. If it's not a Connors or a Smith, it's like, they put in extra letters and it really just

[00:08:25] pronounce it like as it's written. It's my ancestors that came over here. That's not even our original name. We changed it at Ellis Island. And like, they did make it like to be the easiest it can be. It's fun. So, Becky, as our guest of honor, where would you like to start attacking this episode?

[00:08:50] I want to talk about the development and we can, as we go through the episode, talk about how it unfolds. But my favorite thing about this episode was the development of Cordelia, her character

[00:09:10] and how she, we learned how much she's suffering from not being the same person that she was back in high school. And I think a lot of us, you have an identity in high school, good or bad, indifferent, whatever. And that was her identity was the money and the popularity. And now she doesn't have that and she's lost.

[00:09:41] And I just thought watching her towards the end of the episode, basically, I love to quote Ricky Bobby. If y'all watch Talladega Nights, she got her balls back. So, that was my favorite part of this episode, was watching her do that. But the best scenes, I think, were her and Angel when she busted in. Oh, into his apartment? Yeah.

[00:10:11] Yeah, that was so amazing. Everything about that was hilarious. First of all, thank you, Angel, for the topless David Boreanaz wet from the shower. Oh, beautiful. I'm not going to complain about that ever. Not one bit. Love it. Appreciate it. Cordelia being like, you're going to want to get my suitcase from the hallway. And him actually doing it killed me.

[00:10:39] Like, she may not be rich anymore, but she has not lost the idea that other people exist to serve her. Right. And it's charming. It's charming. I can't really put my finger on it, but it's charming. There's something about her delivery. And this is Charisma Carpenter, because that same role with a different actor would be like, we would hate her. Oh, absolutely. But she somehow makes it, like, you just can't help but like her. Yeah. Like, cool. I'll help you in.

[00:11:07] And like, when she was doing that, I'm like, because I have a developing attachment to Cordelia as an adult now watching Buffy and Angel and being like, oh, I kind of act like that, but not all. Like, I'm not like that. Where I'm like, grab my stuff. And I'm like watching the scene going, maybe I should be more like Cordelia. I would never, though. I'd start sweating. There's no way I could do that.

[00:11:37] We can all learn from her over the course of watching the series, Angel. She's going to go through a lot of change. And I think that she, what she learns in this episode is that the quality of being a bitch and owning that is not something that was dependent on money. That's something that is core to who she is. And it's not unlike the end of season two when Buffy and Angel are fighting and he's all like, no friends, no weapons.

[00:12:06] You know, what do you have left? And Buffy says, me. And this was that moment for Cordelia where she's like, I don't need money. I'm a bitch on my own. It's who I am. Like, and she owns it. And it's something that I have done a lot in my life as well. Like, I have sort of famously said in college one time, I have no need for men to like me, only fear me.

[00:12:35] And it was a joke, but it was not 100% a joke. Because I saw early on in the world that like trying to get men to like you often meant giving up on yourself in some kind of little way. And so I just decided I was okay with being disliked if it was for something I truly believed in. And it has served me well in life. I'm sure that there are people that don't like me because I said what I thought. And I'm okay with them not liking me.

[00:13:04] And it really came in handy when I was a lawyer. Because the number of times you have to say something to someone that they don't like is a lot. Like, all the time. You can't do that. That's illegal. If you do that, you're going to get fired. Like, these are things I've had to say to people over and over and over again. And they don't like it. I think we need more of those lawyers. Yeah. And I've had people go to my boss and be like, Penny was kind of mean when she told me that the thing I want to do is illegal. And my boss was like, yeah. Because it's illegal.

[00:13:34] What are you supposed to say to that? Okay. That's what prisons more mean. So, like, if you have a problem with meanness, you're not going to like jail. Yeah. And I sort of have that too where, and I think I've sort of forgotten that a bit because most of the patients I serve are men. And I sort of forget, like, that sort of navigation of, yeah, there's a reason women are talked

[00:14:04] to a certain way where men are not. And it's not respect. It's because they wouldn't talk to a man that way because they fear them. And maybe not, like, being punched. But they fear being pushed back on by another guy. They don't fear that from women in general. And they get real upset when it happens. I have very much experienced that. Oddly enough, not from most of my patients. Yeah.

[00:14:30] I'm not surprised that your patients respect you. Yeah. Because your directness and your honestness is always delivered in my experience with kindness. But I can see it being a real problem for people who are trying to get you to do what they wanted you to do. And you're like, no, I'm not doing that. And they're like, Sam's a bitch. Like, exactly. I've definitely been called a bitch. Oh, 100%. To my face. So many times. Oh, yeah.

[00:15:00] Like, don't be such a bitch. And I'm like, bitches get the door done. Yeah, exactly. My response is, oh, I can be more of one. Do you want that? Yeah. Yeah. What were you saying, Becky? I was just saying, yeah, I am who I am. Yeah. All right. Right. It's this weird sort of, like, notion in there. And yeah, even if they don't agree with me, there's not really a big problem there. Because I also focus on empowerment.

[00:15:30] And it's never, like, to just be mean. It's just boundary setting. Yeah. Like, how you were doing, Penny. Like, just setting the table. Yeah. Yeah. It is more people who expected me to cater to their feelings and actually don't want to have a full conversation about it. And definitely when I know more about something than they do. Oh, yeah. That's that. And I say, like, that's not really how this works. And there's a reaction.

[00:16:00] I definitely resonated with the angry ghost mom in this episode. While I was like, oh, that feels familiar. Like, just sort of. Not just personally, but, like, more of, like. I noticed how dark that sounded. It really did. I was like, the one who bricked her son into a wall. Oh, my God. Oh, boy.

[00:16:27] I don't know if I want to be alone with you if you identify with her. Oh, no. Oh, no. Oh, no. Oh, no. I misspoke. I misspoke. This happens all the time. No, no, no. Her having people like that in my life. Oh, okay. Okay. No, no, no, no. God, no. No, no, no. She is opposite of who I would ever be as a person. Like, no, no, no. I should have made that more clear. No, no, no.

[00:16:54] People, I've had those kinds of people react to me that way with me just sitting in my transparency and my own two cents of, like, that is how they are approaching that situation. And, oh, I bet if it was, like, the purge and they could get away with putting me behind bricks in a wall. Oh, there's some that I definitely trigger that would love to do that. But, yeah.

[00:17:22] But it wouldn't fix anything as we see with Angry Ghost Mom. That doesn't actually fix anything. Yeah, I do want to give a shout out to the actor who plays Angry Ghost Mom, also known as Maude Pearson. She's played by Beth Grant. And I love Beth Grant. I've seen her in a bunch of things. But my favorite thing that she's been in was the Mindy Project, where she played this, like, unhinged nurse who works at Mindy's medical practice. She's amazing. And she was so funny in that show without fail.

[00:17:52] Just, like, hilarious line deliveries. Great comedic timing. She has such a unique look, too. She's so great on screen. I mean, I just adore her. She plays Carlotta Mayfield on The Mayfair Witches. Oh, yeah? That's where I've seen her most recently. Oh, it's perfect. It's exactly crotchety old lady. It's the exact same role. When I saw her, I was like, oh, I hate Carlotta. Yeah.

[00:18:22] Gosh, she's so funny in this. She's amazing in this role as the ghost. And she plays off Cordelia so well. It's just fantastic chemistry. So this episode got me thinking about bitches and the word bitch. And I found this fantastic article. It was written in the context of Benedict Cumberbatch went on The Ellen Show.

[00:18:50] And they were talking about how his fans call themselves Cumberbitches. And he was like, I don't know how I feel about it. Is that like anti-feminist? I don't know. And apparently the Cumberbitches responded like, we just think it sounds fun. And we're not trying to be anti-feminist. Whatever. And anyway, this writer, Amanda Montel, did this like short history of the word bitch. The word has had a long and colorful past in the human lexicon, beginning with its suspected origins in Sanskrit.

[00:19:18] Linguists postulate that bitch started there with the ancient word bagas, meaning genitals. And later found its way in various forms into Latin, French, and Old English, eventually coming to refer to a creature with exposed genitals, aka an animal. More specifically thereafter, the word narrowed to female animal. And within a few centuries, landed on female dog. The first shift in meaning from beast to human was not recorded until around 1400 AD.

[00:19:43] According to researcher Charles A. Collins from Southern Illinois University, here's where bitch first surfaced in writing to describe a lewd, promiscuous woman, a prostitute. For me, this is where things stop making sense. How did we get from a delightful lady puppy to a woman who exchanges her vagina for money? Unfortunately, semantic nosedives like this are common. The process of a neutral word for a female taking on negative, often sexual meaning is a pattern found throughout language. The phenomenon is called pejoration.

[00:20:12] In 1975, a language and gender superstar named Muriel Schultz put it like this. Again and again in the history of language, one finds that a perfectly innocent term designated a girl or woman may begin with totally neutral or even positive connotations, but that gradually it acquires negative implications at first, perhaps only slightly disparaging, but after a period of time becoming abusive and ending as a sexual slur.

[00:20:37] The word spinster comes to mind because of course that was originally meant to refer to a woman who was so good at spinning wool that she was financially independent. And now it has come to mean like an old lady who's lonely and sad and lives with her cats. A stereotype I reject, by the way. I'm not sad about living with my cat. Gosh, no, they're great roommates. There are a gazillion examples of this. Take the word tart, for instance. Tart started out, of course, as the name of a dessert.

[00:21:05] Then according to an 1864 Oxford English Dictionary definition, it morphed into an affectionate term for a pleasant or attractive woman. Absolutely interchangeable with girl. Already here, we're associating women with inanimate fruity dessert items. But what's worse is that in later decades, the word began to take on increasingly sluttier connotations. And even though it's not exactly the hippest slang term today, most of us recognize tart to mean a woman who dresses in a specific way to attract sexual attention from men.

[00:21:36] Muriel Schultz found that pejorative terms for women like this are created by men in response to a sort of sexual fear of women. These words are then approved by dictionary makers, who historically are male, further perpetuating the ideas behind them through writing, commentary, and ultimately the culture at large.

[00:21:52] In a paper amazingly titled, Bitches and Skanky Ho-Bags, The Place of Women in Contemporary Slang, Laurel Sutton concludes that the vast landscape of language seems to be a male construct in which women are talked about and talked to, but do not themselves speak. In other words, women become defined by their relationship to men. This might sound extreme, so let's look at the numbers.

[00:22:15] In the late 80s and early 90s, two groups of graduate students at UCLA and UC Berkeley went into the field to compile a list of slang terms used to refer to women and another list for men. They simply eavesdropped on conversations overheard in public and recorded any relevant terms. Once the data was in front of them, they found that almost 90% of the slang terms they recorded for women described them either as objects, prostitutes, dumb, rude, or evil.

[00:22:41] As opposed to the slang terms for men, only 46% of which were at all negative. While some of these female terms we've heard many times, i.e. jailbait, slut, hoebag, some were particularly innovative. Hell pig is an example that sticks out, a domesticated animal, and a devil all in one. Interestingly enough, however, the data presented just two slang words that women actually use among themselves as a term of affection.

[00:23:05] One of them was hoe, and is unfortunately something I have indeed said once or twice upon entering a room with my friends. And the other was, you guessed it, bitch. Obviously, the connotations of bitch have shifted since the year 1400 when it was used to describe a lewd, licentious woman. I don't know about you, but my intuition points to bitch having pruder, meaner, more stuck-up connotations than that.

[00:23:27] To figure this out, our linguist from Southern Illinois University conveniently outlined the timeline of bitch implications, starting with female dog, then moving on to prostitute, shifting then to a sort of servant, go fetch me my tea, bitch. Then on to an unpleasant person, and finally adopting the verbal form meaning to complain. Sorry for bitching so much about my job.

[00:23:46] He also surveyed a small population sample to find out the primary descriptors currently associated with the word and ultimately determined those to be active, excitable, competitive, feminine, and insensitive. Which personally don't sound so bad to me. In the past few years, a conclusively positive reappropriation of bitch has also risen, just as the UC studies found. This has been particularly noted in Valley Girl Speak and also in the gay community.

[00:24:12] It's been theorized that this new meaning may derive from the characteristics of flashiness, colorfulness, and glitter associated with the lewd bitches of 1400 AD. All things considered, bitch probably isn't going anywhere soon because at the end of the day, like the Cumberbitches said, the word is simply fun to say. And believe it or not, there's even a linguistic reason for that. There is a lot more to the article. We'll link it in the show notes. I love that. But I wanted to talk about this because words have power and language has power.

[00:24:42] And it changes over time. And I find this kind of stuff fascinating. Like how did the word get from, you know, like female animals to like boss bitch? And there are people who have studied it and there are papers. There's going to be links in that article if you guys want to read like really nerdy stuff. Linguistics is fascinating. We're the only creatures on the planet that have language. There's communication with other species. But we're the only species that has language.

[00:25:10] And it's fascinating how it develops and changes. I didn't know any of that. That's so cool. And I like the idea of like when someone calls me a bitch next time of like, they just call me something from like 2000 BC. Like that's legendary. Yeah. Like Sanskrit. You mean that in the Sanskrit meaning? Or could you be more specific?

[00:25:34] Is this a 15th century interpretation or more modern day? Like. Because I personally adopt the, you know, the new millennium definition of bitch. But like if you're stuck in the 1400s, like I get it. And yeah. And it's, it's just the context of it all. I know. Yeah. When, when members, when women or when members of the LGBTQ plus community call me bitch, hoe, like all that stuff.

[00:26:04] I'm like, thank you. Right. It's endearment. I think it's so, it's wonderful. Not the same. Not the, well, yeah, no, definitely not the same when men call me that. That's definitely more of that 1400 century demeaning, put you down. And yeah. And they even have it like guys amongst themselves. It reminds me a lot of, there's a documentary called Tough Guys, G-U-I-S-E.

[00:26:33] Really known in our grad school about just how men are indoctrinated into the patriarchy and are some of their biggest victims as well. And they talk about just like how everything about being a man is diametrically opposed to womanhood. Don't be a pussy. Don't be a girl. Don't be a bitch. Don't be like, and it's like, yeah. What does that mean though for women in your life? If that's how you're socialized, don't be weak.

[00:27:02] Like women? So it's just sort of this. Who are not weak? No, no, not at all. Actually, biologically, we are superior. Like, we're much more resilient. Yeah, just science. We're smarter on average. We have higher IQs. We are more resilient. Yeah, we don't have as much muscle mass. Yep. Yep. We don't have as much muscle mass, but we have higher pain tolerances. So like. Yeah. It's pretty cool.

[00:27:29] Men are only stronger when you measure by like ability to lift heavy objects. True. It's like. That's only one. Like one factor in strength. And they, they focus on it. They love that one. And it's like, yeah, but what about like ability to, you know, birth a fricking mango out of your vagina? Like could men do that? Or get a shot without like, I mean, we've had patients pass out all men.

[00:27:59] Pass out from getting their blood drawn. Can you imagine? So yeah, it's, it's more of like, you know, I think for me, I would like to know more of an acknowledgement of that. Of like, yeah, no, that's crazy. I can't do that. Like I just, I like those videos of the period cramp simulator. Like I just the acknowledgement of like, yeah, no women are better than men at this. Looking at the binary of it. Of like, yeah, you guys are better at this.

[00:28:29] And that's okay. But yeah, it's, it is an odd sort of thing of like, if women are better than men or less than. It's like, that's not how that works. Well, there's, I don't know if you, how you feel about Meghan Markle, but she put out a really good podcast on Spotify called Archetypes.

[00:28:51] And bitch was one of the, each episode was a word that has been used to, to mostly negatively with a woman. And she goes into, she has special guests on and they talk about how they've taken that, that name back and taken the power back from what that's supposed to mean.

[00:29:14] So if you're looking for their quick episodes, but they're really, it's a really good, a lot like the article you just read kind of gives the history of some of the archetypes and words that are out there used to describe women. And how we've, as we've evolved, we've taken those words back to mean what we want them to mean. I like it. I am fascinated and I'm definitely going to listen to that podcast and we'll link it in the show notes as well. Is it called exposed?

[00:29:44] No, it's Archetype. Archetype. Because I want to. That's fantastic. Thank you. So to bring it back to the show, there's this amazing scene where Cordelia is really beat down by this ghost who's telling her she's worthless, that she stinks of poverty. And then Cordelia remembers herself. I'm going to play a clip, of course, because that's what I do. I knew you were troubled by the start.

[00:30:14] I'm surprised that my son didn't smell the stench of poverty and failure on you. I can. I'm sorry. You better be sorry, you stupid little bitch. Take off the bedsheets. Make a noose. Go on. It'll all be over soon.

[00:30:43] I'm not a sniveling, whiny little crybuffy. I'm the nastiest girl in Sunnydale history. I take crap from nowhere. You're going to make yourself a noose and put it around... Back off, Polygrip. You think you're bad? All mean and haunty? Picking on poor, pathetic Cordy?

[00:31:10] Well, get ready to haul your wrinkly, translucent ass out of this place, because lady, the bitch is back. Love that. It's so satisfying. Yes. So good. So good. I just... I love that. I love a woman feeling her own power. Right? Yeah. And I love that it was... Scare me.

[00:31:37] That it was that bitch that triggered her. She's like, you know what? I am. I am. And here's what's about to happen. I love that. Yeah. That's so great. Yeah. That's sort of awakening. Because you think when she calls her that, she's going to get the same response that angry ghost mom got before. And it was like, no. Yeah. No. No, no, no. Not this woman. You're messing with the wrong person this time. Mm-hmm.

[00:32:07] That scene is so hilarious, right? Like, that is intercut with the scene of Angel and Doyle trying to, like, simultaneously fight off the goons and do, like, a ghost cleansing ritual. There's stuff flying around the room. It's one of my favorite action scenes on the show because it's so ridiculous. Those two guys are like, who's that? And then the demon guy is like, that's just a ghost. Ignore it. And, like, just the connotations of that in, like, Los Angeles.

[00:32:37] I love to picture that, like, that demon guy walks around Los Angeles in his suit and people are like, he must be in a movie. Be the same thing in New York City. I'm like, oh, okay. Oh, yeah. I've seen weirder stuff than that on the subway in New York City. Seriously. Seriously. I love thinking about what it would be like to live in a city where there was, like, this whole demon underground.

[00:33:02] And, like, over the course of the series, we're going to see a lot of, like, the sort of demon economy of Los Angeles. There's, like, they have demon spas and demon brothels and demon gambling establishments. And, like, there's so many demon businesses. Like, no wonder they need a demon-friendly law firm. I know. It makes sense. Penny, I need you to get a job at a demon. If that comes to fruition, please get a job at a demon law firm and tell us all about it. Yeah.

[00:33:32] I mean, a new one. I don't know if I could have what it takes. I might be a little too nice. But I could maybe try to be, like, undercover agent. There you go. I like it. I like it. Also, could... I certainly would enjoy working with Lindsay. Same. Same. How are you, Becky, with the Christian cane of it all? Lindsay McDonald? I loved him.

[00:34:00] My first discovery of him was Angel. And then the... What was that show? Leverage. I haven't seen every single episode, but I thoroughly enjoy the ones that I've seen.

[00:34:17] I think he's nice to look at, and he does such a great job of towing that line between super good and super bad in Angel that just makes... It makes you have some feelings. Yeah. Yeah. He's very attractive, and he plays Lindsay so well. I love his portrayal. I love the moral quandaries that he goes through. Yes.

[00:34:44] And especially with his history, we have an upcoming episode with him that's probably one of my favorite in Angel because it has him, but it also, I think, humanizes more morally gray people in those areas. Of just, like, there's a reason he's like this, and it's not just pure evil or pure greed. There's actually trauma in there. But, yeah. I'd like some demons to run our country instead.

[00:35:14] Yeah. Really good. Yeah. Yeah. I'd prefer demons at this point. We'll get to Christian Cain in the future. Yeah. Seriously. I mean, like, Lorne, who's season two, is a demon, and I would vote for Lorne. Delightful. There's a lot of nice demons. Yeah. Like, I'm thinking... Yeah. Or what's the season six demon that, in Buffy, the one who has, like, all the skin folds and stuff?

[00:35:44] Blarp or Clark? Something. I know who you're talking about. Yeah. He's a sweetheart. I don't know if I would want him to be president, though. He doesn't seem very bright. No, he doesn't. But you know what? Would it be that much different from other things? I don't know. I don't know. Gnarl. No, Gnarl is the gross one from season six. Clem. He is a doll. You were right. It was just some kind of, like, word from Clem.

[00:36:14] But yeah. So adorable. They would actually be a little bit more organized, hopefully. Yeah. Yeah. So the demons coming after Doyle, let's just talk about that a little bit. There are some really great moments between Angel and Doyle in the episode where Angel agrees to, like, look into this and try to help Doyle with his situation. But then he's like, why do you live like this? And I've got that, of course, so we can listen to it and then talk about it.

[00:36:43] Why do you live like this? Well, why not live like this? I mean, what's wrong with it? Yeah, well, I guess it's the kind of life that keeps your expectations from getting too high. Seems like you don't understand that. I do. Yeah. I just don't know why that's important to you. This kind of life sort of picked me. You don't have to do it this way.

[00:37:13] What happened? Don't worry about it, okay? Angel's being a true friend, right? Like, I'm going to keep you from getting killed, but I'm also going to talk to you in a real way about, like, the way you're living your life is eventually going to get you killed. Well, I love how he caught the conversation with Cordelia, you know, when they're talking and he clocks that something happened with Doyle. And then he sets it up.

[00:37:40] So he's like, hey, there's somebody up here that wants to talk to you and knows Doyle's going to bolt and he's waiting for him. So he's like, come clean with me. Talk to me. Tell me what's going on. And it really, you know, this, I think this was also a bit of good character development for Doyle. Because it doesn't seem like Doyle takes himself seriously or obviously he doesn't have the best self-esteem based on that conversation he just had with Angel.

[00:38:09] And I think he thinks that that's all he deserves in life. And I love throughout the rest of the season as they grow as a unit. And I think this is one of the first episodes where we really start to see the three of them gel together as a little Angel investigations family.

[00:38:27] That he's in that conversation with Angel as much as he fights it initially, he's realizing, okay, there is, there are reasons to want a better life. It's okay to want a better life. It's okay to put in the work to have a better life. And it's okay to let those, let people around, good people around you in to help you get there.

[00:38:52] And that was, Doyle is one of my favorite, favorite characters of the show, aside from the one we're going to meet at the end of the episode. But I just, yes, yes, to that true friendship. And Angel really, really cares for him. And I'm glad that he showed Doyle that. Yeah. Yeah. I've known people like this, right, whose lives are a disaster.

[00:39:20] And you think, oh, no, like this horrible, like a bunch of bad stuff happened to this person and they're down on their luck. And then you get to know them a little bit better. And you're like, oh, you are perpetuating this disaster. Like with every choice you make, like I see it. And I've had to remove myself from those relationships because I'll get sucked in and then my life will be a disaster. And there's a, bad things happen to people out of the blue sometimes.

[00:39:49] And they get knocked off of their steady life. And it can happen when you're a kid. It can happen when you're an adult. It could be a sickness. It could be a natural disaster. It can be, you know, being in the wrong place at the wrong time and getting, you know, hurt or something. There's all kinds of bad things that can happen. But I think that people who have a low opinion of themselves get stuck in this trap of bad things happen to me because I deserve it.

[00:40:17] I should not even try to make smart decisions. I'm stupid. I only make stupid decisions. I'll just go ahead and keep doing these stupid things. And it's a feedback loop of depression. Yeah. And also when you're constantly in a state of drama, you don't have a lot of time to think. Right? You're like, I got to keep from getting killed and then I got to pay this guy and then I got to get some money and go to this other place. And then, like, when do you sit down and go like, huh, I should strategize a way to not always be living like this. Yeah.

[00:40:47] Angel told him the truth and he needed to hear it. And one thing about telling people the truth when something in their life is you have to say it to them. They're not necessarily going to go, you know, you're right. I'm going to change starting right now. Oh. It's a process. Oh, my gosh. That after school special reaction. Yeah. You have to let it soak a little bit. Let them marinate in what you said. They won't think about it right away. They'll probably get defensive right away.

[00:41:15] But, like, saying it is valuable because someday they will realize you were right. Or hopefully they will. Exactly. And I, you know, between being a therapist and having 20 plus years in my own personal therapy, yeah, it's, for me, my values are, like, they align with being honest if I'm concerned. And it's always coming from a place of kindness and concern for someone that I care about.

[00:41:46] And sort of just, you know, putting in my two cents because it's just my two cents. I'm not living this person's life. So there's no way I can possibly know what's going on. And I do that, you know, out of kindness, respect, caring. I don't worry about with some things I maybe need to worry about a little bit more. I was like, oh, no, what if you hurt someone's feelings? I'm expressing concern. Which is very valid. And I've had those reactions.

[00:42:14] And I completely understand it. And it's, you know, it's because you stepped on someone's landmine by accident. And it's something where it's like, I respect this person to just be honest and respect their autonomy and their ability to take care of themselves. I find not telling people that you care about, you know, don't want to waste your energy on people that you don't.

[00:42:41] Not telling people how you're thinking, how you're feeling is almost infantilizing them. And saying, like, oh, they can't handle this. Because I gotta tell you, my profession has helped me to understand that's not true. These are fully grown adults and they're very resilient. And you might not be right in your suggestion. That's okay. And it's just putting it out there as it's just my two cents. And respecting their autonomy if they're not ready or they may never be ready. They have to do it on their own time.

[00:43:12] Change is so hard. It requires so much time, energy, blood, sweat, and tears. And we gotta figure out what we can attend to when we can attend to it. And so, you know, I sort of come from this modality of like, if I'm concerned, I say it. And then maybe I'll say it again in a couple of weeks or something. Like, I'm not gonna, you know, harp on it. And then also respecting that this is a fully grown adult. And they're gonna make their decisions.

[00:43:41] And I, autonomy is the hill I will die on as a person and a professional. So I need to respect that in everyone. And also, like, what you were talking about, Penny, is like self-soothing. Because it's painful to watch someone suffer. And, you know, not be ready or not be in a space where they want to take that on. Like we see in this episode. Doyle's just not ready there. We'll see you in the future. And he said, like, maybe I'll tell you later.

[00:44:10] And I think Angel approached it the best way you can. Which is, he helped deal with the immediate danger. And then he got to a place where he and Doyle were alone together in a calm setting. And there was no danger happening right then. And then he broached the topic in a way that did not sound judgmental. It was curious, to quote, you know, Ted Lasso. Be curious, not judgmental. Like, why are you like this?

[00:44:38] And you know you don't have to be like this. But he also was sort of like, all right, we talked about it. Like, all right, we can move on from here when you're ready to tell me. But I can't help you unless I know what's going on. And it left Doyle with the dignity of his autonomy and his own, like, personal decision making. But at the same time, Angel was very clear. Like, I can help you. But I'm not going to help you continue down this path.

[00:45:07] I'm not going to be, like, defending you from money collecting demons every week. But if you want to change, like, I will help you. And he was respectful and calm. And, you know, that's a really hard thing to do. If you want to have a serious conversation with someone, I suggest sort of rehearsing it in advance and finding a way to do it in a calm and nonjudgmental way. You know, your temptation might be like, you have to stop drinking! Or whatever the thing is that you want to talk about, right?

[00:45:36] But that will never work. That will only make them defensive. It has to be a respectful, calm, open conversation. Yeah, and one-on-ones, you know, I know, speaking of substances, and like Doyle, like, you know, we find a little bit more about what he's, you know, what's going on. Yeah, I know intervention, group interventions work. I'm not a fan of it. I know that show made it really popular. I have not seen it work. I know it does.

[00:46:05] It's just my personal recommendation is people, it just really makes them defensive. And it really gets their back up and they feel ganged up on, like a bunch of people coming at them. I find like it's the motivational interviewing. That's a key. You can Google that. That's what us therapists do when we work with people who don't want to change. And, you know, planting a seed and moving forward and taking care of yourself and everyone else around you.

[00:46:32] Because if and when this person decides to change, it can't be for you. So, like, Angel acknowledges that. Like, I'm here, but I'm also not going to be, you know, a target of all this stuff. We'll be here later if and when you're ready. So, it was a very, very good, kind way. And, oh, and if you're going to talk to people, please don't use a sentence, we need to talk, or I need to talk to you. Right. It gets people's blood pressure. Yep.

[00:47:03] Just, just dive right in. Just, you know, like, obviously not in a crowd. And like Penny said, maybe, you know, put some bullet points in that you want to use I statements. You know, that kind of stuff. But just really, there's no good way to have these conversations. And when people use those statements, it just ends up getting people's blood pressure up really fast. Which is not what you want. And, you know, saying I understand that this is a lot to take in.

[00:47:31] Why don't you take some time to think about it is incredibly important. Because saying like, I don't need you to respond to me right now. I needed to tell you what I thought. And, you know, you don't have to say anything. Just give them permission to like process in their own speed. Absolutely. I'm one of those people that if somebody tells me something, I'll be like, okay, fine. And then like two days later, I'll know how I really feel about it.

[00:47:55] So anytime that I'm pressured to give a substantive response right away to something emotional, I crash and burn. So for me, it would be very important to be like, I think that this is something, whatever it is. Like when you're ready to talk about it, I'm here. That would work on me so much better than like an intervention where there's like multiple people. It's not great. Yeah. Yeah. And that's a great point, Penny.

[00:48:22] Of like, so when I've seen this go poorly with people, I usually say like, I need some time. Like to process it. Like rather than like, because people will push back, even though absolutely we could all use some time. They're like, you don't know what I need. You're right. I need some time. So can we talk about this later? Like fair point. Yeah.

[00:48:48] Like, I gotta say, like, you know, I really appreciated some of these very transparent patients who are like, like, I don't, I no longer say calm down. I no longer say, I know that seems like, no, you don't know. That's true. Like, like, yep, nope, that's absolutely true. You're right. And I tell them that, which oddly also deflates the anger in the moment of like, oh, I thought you were going to fight me on that. I'm like, no, you were, you were right. Yeah. Amazing.

[00:49:19] We did get a lot of fun stuff with Angel fighting that demon and being all like tough and, and cool about it. You know, when he's like, oh, I feel like fighting. If you want, you might last 10 minutes. Like all the like sort of classic angel being, you know, a, a badass and an amazing fighter. Sometimes I forget because I get caught up in the like redemption and all that stuff. But like, he's also an action. Oh yeah. When he snapped that demon's neck.

[00:49:45] I was like, oh yeah, that was, I like it when he slams the one guy. What does he say? What's your name? And he's, was it what that was he said? What's your name? And the guy that would tell him and he hit him again and he said it again. It made me think of like Walter White for Breaking Bad. What's say my name? Yes. And it's very attractive. Now I just see that imagery superimposed on there.

[00:50:11] What about these fantasy shows where there are a lot of villains that are like not humans? Is it gives you a chance to enjoy the violence that you would not enjoy the same way if it was always like humans fighting humans? Absolutely. It's like, kill that vampire. Snap his neck. Like kill the demon. Like it's, it's so different. You're able to sort of enjoy it in a way that's really different from like more realistic shows.

[00:50:40] Like my, my family is still surprised that that show just gets me like viscerally. And they're like, your favorite movies are horror movies. I'm like, yes, but they're fictional. They're like, so is this. I'm like, it doesn't look like it though. It doesn't be, no, it doesn't. It feels way too real. Yeah. Human on human violence. Squid game is intense. And of course I also podcast about the show Yellow Jackets. Yeah.

[00:51:10] There is a lot of stuff that happens on that show between humans that is extremely disturbing. I have to say it's always a relief when I like switch from Yellow Jackets in my head to like Buffy or Angel in my head. And I'm like, oh, a world where good and evil are clearer. Yeah. And like, even though these shows have a lot of subtlety and gray areas, but like compared to Yellow Jackets, like it's so, it's such a relief to be like, I know Buffy's the good guy. Yeah.

[00:51:41] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It reminds me from the episode season two, I think it was after Jenny Callender's murder. And she was, she was looking, she was with Giles over the Jenny Callender's grave. And she's like, something like, you know, tell me it's going to be okay. And he's like, do you want the truth? And she goes, lie to me. And he goes, you know, all the good guys are easily spotted, you know, and it all works every, you know, everything out in the end. And she's like, liar.

[00:52:11] And I'm like, I'm like, that's one of my core memories of watching this show. But yeah, it's, it's a lot different. And what I love about these shows is like, the good guys actually win. And, you know, like they're, they're, they're conquering the bad guys. And more and more, I find that something to, to, to pull to and to gravitate to of the hero that saves the day.

[00:52:37] And it actually works as opposed to things in, in real life, you know, even true crime documentaries. My family and I, I mean, all of us kind of just grew up watching true crime. I don't know what that did to our brain chemistry, but I think it probably contributed to my favorite movies being horror movies. And, and yeah, seriously. Well, you're not alone. True crime is wildly popular. Because we get answers. And, and there, there's actually justice.

[00:53:06] And one of the most infuriating things for a lot of true crime listeners, and even like my family, especially, I know not to show them any true crime documentaries where the killer wasn't found. Because the, ooh, like, and to be fair, I don't particularly care for that either. So it's, it is this sort of resolution, myth of justice, closure, or whatever you want to call it.

[00:53:30] And we get that in this episode, which I, so I haven't watched this episode in 20 years. Like, I really, it's, it's not one I go back to. It might be now. But it's, it's not one that I go back to a lot. I'm watching this episode and I'm like, I don't remember it going this way. Like, I, I remember the killer mom ghost who killed Dennis. And I'm like, I don't.

[00:54:00] And they're like, yeah, they, they kept saying it. And I remember like checking it and I'm like 10 more minutes remaining. I, I, I guess he really did murder her. Like I, I was very confused. Yeah. And, and, you know, it fits in with the, the myth of, of, of not myth, but like the stereotypes of the first couple episodes of Angel, which is men are doing horrible things to women.

[00:54:26] And so like, and it sort of follows that and I'm just watching it of like, I like gaslighting myself, I guess. Cause I was like, nope, I, I remembered it wrong. And, and then that final scene. And it's like, I remember that scene, like clear as day from when I first watched it 25 years ago and 24 and a half of like, I saw, I was like, Oh, I remember now. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:54:55] He didn't kill his mother. Like, Oh my God. It was wild. I liked that turnabout cause it played on our expectations. It did. And, you know, Dennis becomes one of the best characters throughout the whole season. And this episode, you know, where there's a lot of, especially with the torture episode with Angel and Spike, and there's a lot of dark.

[00:55:23] And while this one had a dark storyline, the majority of the episode really was comedic and light. And even Angel was, you know, it was like laid back, chill, not the, you know, heavy mask of brooding that he, he has. And that's, that is why when, you know, I was like, I want to come on for an episode.

[00:55:50] I picked this episode because it stood out in the, all of season one. When you ask me about season one, this is the one that I'm like, I loved that episode. And then the, at the end when she's back, you know, Cordelia is back to being Cordelia on the phone, making a joke about how she lives with her roommate, but he's never around.

[00:56:16] And then Dennis is like a cat knocking, trying to knock a drink off the table. To get her attention. And her joking about the receptionist at work being terrible when she is the terrible receptionist at work. And Angel in the beginning, it's like, I really had hopes for her with the phone.

[00:56:35] And while we see how that goes, it just, nobody, except for the conversation with, you know, Angel and Doyle that you talked about, but nobody really took themselves too seriously. Yeah. The peanut butter in the bed, the cutting up the linoleum. It just, Chris McCarpenter's comedic acting really shone in this episode.

[00:56:57] And I just love it for giving us Dennis and giving us just a fun, cool little twist in the end. Just, it was just such a fun episode and it really stands out in my mind. Yeah. It's so funny. All the scenes of Cordelia in Angel's apartment were just gold. Yeah. Like you were saying, the peanut butter on the bed thing where she's like, that's gross. I don't know how you did it. You did it. You got peanut butter in the bed.

[00:57:29] Okay. And her cheeky little. Do you have any linoleum glue? Her cheeky little grin when he's like, who's wet towel is on my leather so much? Yeah. She's like. She's just like. It's like Cordy, you and Buffy are closer and have more in common than you think. Buffy is also a terrible roommate. Yeah. Yeah. It's true. We did learn that this season on Buffy. Like she's just obnoxious.

[00:57:55] If you could pick your ghost. So we all get fancy homes, apartments or homes that are apparently really affordable and amazing. Great views. And furnished. And furnished. Yeah. Which I mean, they must have had done a lot of repair work because they trashed that apartment. Oh yeah. The ghost and the demons.

[00:58:21] But who would you like, what kind of ghost if you could pick your ghost to be your roommate? Kind of. I think I would want a woman ghost. I was thinking that too. There's no way to prove Dennis isn't looking at you changing. The one thing about Dennis that always creeps me out is like, he sees Cordelia in the shower and stuff. Yeah. But he also works to protect her. I mean, he cares about her. Yeah. Yeah. He cares about her. So I really, I don't know.

[00:58:51] I really don't think I care at, at this point, at this age, you know, nearing 50, if it's male or female, just don't be scary. Be cool. Yeah. Be cool. You know what I would like? I would like a gay guy ghost. Oh. Like, like a really over the top, like, so, so, so gay, gay guy ghost. I like that.

[00:59:19] Who would be like, who would like throw away the clothes that he thinks I shouldn't wear. Oh. You know, break stuff that he thinks is ugly in the house. Be like, you're not going to have that anymore. Absolutely. That's a ghost I could get along with. That would actually be a funny little sitcom. That would be. That would be. That would actually be really great. I like that. My ghost won't let me wear that outfit.

[00:59:46] I'm going to start using that excuse with the clothing that family's given me that I can't return and I don't wear. My ghost said I can do it. Sorry. My ghost won't let me wear it. It's the new the dog ate my homework. There you go. My ghost shredded that shirt. It's gone. That would be so fun. We would play great music and have ghost dance parties. I'd be happy. I really like that.

[01:00:14] Just anyone that wants to watch TV with me and talk about, because that's what I like to do. Like nerdy stuff. Yeah. Just hang out with me and my cats. I don't really care. Just don't be scary. Yes. Yeah. I would be fine with a ghost roommate. That would be fine. That would be really cool. Yeah. Just I wouldn't want them watching me poop. I think that would be like hard line in the sand.

[01:00:41] I only, only the cat gets to watch me poop. Because they will, yeah, they will follow. They don't care. They're like, don't shut the door behind. Because, yeah, if I shut the door and shut him out of the bathroom when I'm in there, he like attacks the door. Yeah. She's the same way. Yep. I have to leave the door open. You're in danger, mom. I can't see you. Something's wrong. Yes. And it smells terrible. What is happening?

[01:01:17] It's like, oh, I have to get the more poopery. My cat is losing her mind. Oh, that makes me want to. Departed Frisco to be my ghost. Oh. Oh, that would be wonderful. That would be fun. Although they'd just be knocking stuff over the counter and you'd never be able to predict it. She didn't do that. Oh. Oh, she was a really good cat. No, she was the grumpiest. The hateful cat on the planet, but.

[01:01:47] She was your grump. She, when I needed, when I was sick or she knew mom was down, she, she, cause she wasn't a snuggler until towards the end, but she would be right by my side. And she just was that silent companion. And when she needed me, she'd show up. And when I needed her, she'd show up. But otherwise we just coexisted and. Oh, yeah.

[01:02:16] I want ghost Frisco. That's so sweet. Yeah. Ghost Frisco. Ghost Frisco. When you were describing her, I'm like, kind of sounds like Arya Stark from Game of Thrones. Like, was she also sitting next to you when you were upset being like, the, the, the manager, the ex, the neighbor, I have my list of who's wrong, my mama. And I'm going to, and I'm going to. I was on that list.

[01:02:46] A cat has no name. Yes, seriously. Aria Stark is quite a lot cat-like. She's also like, she doesn't have claws, but like the way she handles a short sword and a dagger. Yeah. Needle. Yep. Just, yeah, she has her, her little, her little needles. Yeah. One of the things that popped out for me on the episode that I wasn't expecting and did

[01:03:16] definitely did not have this experience the first time I've watched it or in the 20 years since is now being a psychologist. Oh, this took on a whole new meaning for me. It, with angry mom ghost and, and Cordelia and just hearing that she did this to other, you know, women in the past, it just sort of reminded me of like, my patient is Cordelia

[01:03:41] and I'm the one trying to help them with the angry mom ghost that is in their head. Oddly enough, sometimes it is their mom or their dad or their ex-partner or something. And even if they don't have contact with those, those individuals, the ghost of them lives in my patients and is coming up for them with low self-esteem and, and pushing them with just the, the things that angry mom ghost was saying.

[01:04:10] I was like, Ooh, like, like this is, those are those inner thoughts where like, if, if patients say that, like I say like, whose voice is that? Cause that's not yours. And like, it is, it's the ghost of abusive parents and abusive partners. And my work is like trying to get them to find themselves and push back and, and say like, no, I am in my congruent self. I have worth.

[01:04:39] You are my developmental trauma. You don't belong here anymore. And when she said like, get out of my house, I was like, yes, get out. And so I just thought that was so cool. Yeah. That was powerful. I hadn't thought about it that way that like, you know, we talk all the time when we talk about Buffy about how the monsters represent real world issues and they've just been exaggerated and turned into fantasy creatures.

[01:05:06] I hadn't thought about this ghost as developmental trauma, but she absolutely is because you know that she was a horrible mother to Dennis too. Up until the end. So controlling. Yeah. Dennis probably had all kinds of trauma from living with this horrible woman. And I just, I never put that together. Sam, your job, you should start telling people is that you're a ghost. Oh my God. I should. Oh my God. That would be innate.

[01:05:36] That's gotta be on your business card. A lot of them would really like that too. A lot of them would really like that too. I like it. Yeah. Cause it, it is echoes from the past. We'll get you a little khaki jumpsuit with your name on it and a big, crazy, weird looking backpack. Yeah. Yeah. And I, I, I love it. I, of course I love Ghostbusters, but yeah, it's, it's just, yeah. I, I wasn't prepared for like, I was just watching the episode and I haven't seen it in so long. And for me, it's really hard to watch anything that talks about suicide.

[01:06:07] It's just, my job just kind of takes me out of it. So I'd imagine as hospital workers are directly with, you know, the pit and ER and Grey's Anatomy, it's just like, like this isn't fun for me. And so. This is the only lawyer TV show I like. Yeah. See? Yep. Yep. Like that totally. It's the only one. I cannot watch other lawyer TV shows. I, they make my skin fall. So. It, it, it takes you out of it.

[01:06:35] And I'm just like, I'm watching it and I'm like, oh my gosh. Like just the things that she was saying and doubling down on it, attacking Cordelia and, you know, the, the, you know, trying to murder Cordelia, but you know, with the. Make it look like a suicide too. That's so insidious. Which is what happens. You're going to murder someone? Murder them. Yes. Like faking a suicide is so underhanded and cowardly. Exactly. Own your bloodshed. Uh, but like, but like, and, but like I'm sort of watching this.

[01:07:04] I have a, um, I have a sound clip of, I just titled it Mean Ghost. I don't remember exactly what it is, but. Let's listen. I will leave, please. Oh, I don't think so. You're worthless. You're never been kind. You've never been smart. You're a user. You're nothing. Everyone would be glad if you were dead. Oh. Oh, come on. If anyone really cared about you, would you be here?

[01:07:31] People let you end up here because they were happy to see you fail. Like that is like, like, yeah, like that is like, that's, that's what developmental trauma says to us. And even if our parents or, or even our adult partners didn't say that directly to us, that's what we were made to think about ourselves. And that's how people. And plenty of parents have said those exact kinds of things.

[01:08:00] And yeah, and you internalize it. Nobody would miss you if you were dead. And you wouldn't be here. And it's like, this is what we see with suicidal ideation of like these sort of thoughts that happen. And so like, I'm like, I was watching because I didn't remember most of it. And so I'm like, oh my gosh. And then the, the, the, the murder was happening. I'm like, yeah, but if, if you don't, which I, maybe I read way too much into it.

[01:08:26] But if you don't fight back those thoughts for yourself and others, that is where it can lead you in the extreme is death and by, by suicide or, you know, just a reckless self-destructive behavior. And we see like, if you believe that you're worthless. Yes. And we see. If you believe you're worthless, like Doyle, who lets himself be in constant life-threatening situations.

[01:08:54] Or Cordy, who is at the beginning of feeling like she's worthless. Yeah. And it, it leads you to not protect yourself from anything. And allowing those thoughts to come in and to stay. And we see like, again, maybe I'm reading way too much into it, but like she was saved from that, from the murder goes suicide, uh, murder attempt from her friends. Showing up and talking to her and empowering her and saying, you need to fight this. You can fight this. This is who you are.

[01:09:24] And like, you've let her in. So you're the only one who can do this. And it's like, yeah, we, we need support. That's one of the main things I try to find for people and myself is a support system. You can't do this alone. And like you, you, we need people. We're social creatures. So like it took her friends coming in and reminding her. And then, you know, of course there's a little bit of Hollywood magic of them saying that amazing line. And she's like, it flipped the switch in her. I was like, uh-huh.

[01:09:52] No, I, I am the bitch. And I'm about to push back. And like, this is like what meds, therapy and support do for you. Like you fight back. And friends and community, like having people who are like, let's get out of here for now and we'll figure it out. Is like, that saved Cordelia's life. Just saying, we're going to remove you from the danger and figure it out with you. Like, that is the most empowering thing you could say to someone. It's like, I'm here to help.

[01:10:22] You're not alone. We're going to figure it out. Let's talk about it. And it's, it's so powerful and how that, that like metaphor unfurled. And I'm like, yeah, this, this is how this works. Your friends need to remind you of who you are when those trauma or those thoughts come creeping in and, and staying. Like, you know, just like a passing thought, but like stick around and sort of put you into this dark space.

[01:10:46] And, you know, hopefully through a lot of work, you are able to internalize your own set of values and beliefs that you take in from yourself and from the environment. And it able, it's able to dull out the developmental trauma. Cause like people who come to me with like low self-worth, low self-esteem are people pleasers at the expense of themselves. That's not actually who we're meant to be.

[01:11:11] Those were, those are responses to trauma or just, just a rough environment. Maybe not trauma, but a rough environment. And, but who we are, like, we value ourselves. We value our lives. And, you know, we want to be here. So like, let's get your voice to become stronger. And that will push out the bad voices. Cause those bad voices aren't you. That's how you defeat the ghost. Yes. It's so great. It's such a great metaphor. I'm so happy.

[01:11:40] Listening to you say all of that, it reminds me, I'm just sitting here thinking, she's talking about me. You know, growing up, I mentioned, or before we jumped on to record, how I didn't have a good relationship with my dad growing up. I, I'm one of three kids, but I was the one that was adopted. I was the only girl. I don't know what, why, but he treated me differently. He put me down.

[01:12:07] Like he bit my parents are both medical profession. And I remember being five years old and be like, I want to be a doctor like you. And he flat out said, no, you can't, you're not capable of that. But I worked hard to get this stupid gold card in eighth grade where you got straight A's. I had to do so much math, extra credit. Cause I was like at math and I brought it home to show him. And he's like, you'll never be able to do that again. But it was just constantly, you know, he wouldn't involve me in things. Chipping away at yourself. Yeah.

[01:12:37] And he wouldn't involve me with things that he would do with my brothers. They went to the airport, they were going to the airport, uh, to pick up, uh, my stepsister once. And he came to the door and my little brother's like, yeah, we're waiting on Becky. And he's like, I didn't ask her to come. Uh, so I grew up and then, you know, we talked, I hate this. I know. I do too. Him cheating on my mother.

[01:13:02] And I grew up thinking that I was, I had low self-esteem. I had low self-worth and I made very poor choices when it came to men and had a lot of people treat me poorly and, you know, put myself in bad situations and whatnot. And the last one crushed me. And so I was like, I need help.

[01:13:31] And it took a friend who was like, listen, I'll listen to you all day, but I can't help you through. I can't fix what's going on. I think it's time you talk to someone. And I did, I spent six months in therapy with the sweetest little Jewish lady. Um, and, but it wasn't, it's, and it still is sometimes, you know, an everyday reminder to look at myself.

[01:13:59] And, and one of my favorite things that she had me do that I still do now is I had to wake up in the morning and look at something about myself and say, I like this today. It might be my eyebrows look good or my hair looks good today, or you're a warrior at this, whatever, but you know, and it just hearing you talk about that.

[01:14:22] It was not the, fortunately I've never made it to the, you know, suicidal side of it, but it got dark and it is everything you just said was, is so true. And I'm grateful that you are that person for a lot of those people to help them find themselves and find that courage and strength and love. And through that, I've got a very healthy, happy marriage.

[01:14:50] I'm, uh, you know, it's just, thank you for what you do for people like me who need people like you to be, to be in a place where we love ourselves. And that does just thank you. And yeah. We cry. Thank you. I, before we jumped on to record, I said something like, this is a pretty long episode.

[01:15:22] But then we are like, and we make everything complicated. We're just like, everybody's on the verge of tears where it's, I don't know. No, it's one of those moments when I'm really grateful for, for podcasting. And I was saying this in our text yesterday that I've met so many wonderful, interesting,

[01:15:45] smart, thoughtful people doing this because I feel like the community that, that we have around podcasts has been very self-selective of people who want to be thoughtful about life and want to be respectful of other people's opinions. And it, it's a really lovely community and not everybody has that. No, I'm really grateful for it.

[01:16:10] And, you know, you two are, are great examples of wonderful people I've met through podcasting and there are many more. Back at you. Us three. Yeah. And I know that maybe some people are like, just talk about the show. But when you share something so personal, like Becky just shared something so personal, it, it makes me feel so connected to you.

[01:16:35] And what I love about these shows, about Buffy, about Angel is that I've connected to people about these shows for years and years, like decades, literally decades, like with other fans. And I think the shows attract people who have had darkness in their lives. And the reason they love Buffy so much is because she is constantly fighting against the rising darkness. And we all need heroes like that to look up to.

[01:17:04] And I don't even know what my point is. I'm just very moved right now. I like, I'm like, it's, I thank you for, for sharing. And I, I like, I get my own teary eyed when I think about how, like, I wish my patients could see what I see in them. Sorry. Like, like I'll do it. But it's, it's, it's true of, um, I know jokes are made about people who go to therapy and everything.

[01:17:32] And I can speak as a therapist and I've worked with many, many therapists. We're in awe of our patients and we think you guys are amazing. And you know, this, this, the bravery to do this, like I've, I've never once sat in a session with a patient and judge them. Like it just, it just doesn't happen. And like what I'm hearing is someone's bravery and being vulnerable because that's hard to do.

[01:17:59] And I've, I've unfortunately lost patients who, who couldn't get there. And, um, just, it's, it's such a beautiful thing. And I always feel very honored to sit with it. And I'm, I'm, I always wish my patients could see themselves the way I see them. And the same thing with my friends of like, um, I see this amazing person in front of me. Like you were describing your, your dad, Becky, and I second what Penny said.

[01:18:25] I'm like, I have this vicious, like, all due respect to you, excuse your dad. Um, but like, you know, just this, this feeling of like how deluded and damaged is this person who hurt his child and, and continue to do so. And like, I understand trauma and stuff and it does not excuse it. And I know so many wonderful people who have done it and you are amazing. You've done the work.

[01:18:52] And it's like, it's really like, we, we, I can't tell you how many therapists it would be like over a hundred that I've worked with who are like, our patients aren't the problem. Um, it's the world around our patients. Our patients want to feel better and be better. And they're amazing. It's, it's everyone else. And I get teary eyed. Cause like you guys are, um, it, it, and like, I know my, my therapist says it to me too, but I'm like, no, but not really.

[01:19:19] I'm like, you know, you guys come with us on the journey and we literally could do nothing if you guys weren't, weren't willing to, to be our teammates on it. And that's why it's so powerful and, and it's just a wonderful thing that, that people can trust us so much and, and, and do that and find a better joy within themselves. Um, it was always there and, and your, your therapist helped you to rediscover what the world tried to bury in you.

[01:19:49] So I think it was pretty amazing. Both of you, like. People who are mean to children, it, it's indicative of first of the, of all the fact that someone was mean to them when they were a kid, but also just this, the deepest insecurity of all, where it's like, I'm going to pick on somebody who literally has no defenses, right? Like a little kid, they can't leave. They don't have outside resources. They don't have money.

[01:20:19] They don't have experience. They're trapped in the house with you. And it's the same way I feel about people who abuse pets. It's like, how pathetic and small of a human are you that, that you have to take out your bad emotions on like the most vulnerable person around you? It's, it's violent. Yeah. And, and we see this like playing out and we see it systemically happening.

[01:20:46] Honestly, I see patients really putting in a lot of boundaries once they have kids because they want to protect their kids from those family members. And it's like, it wasn't okay for your kid. It wasn't okay for you. And the child in you, but usually that's what it takes to motivate people. And it's like the child in you wants the idea of who that parent was supposed to be. Like, I mean, in, in the show, like, I mean, I think it, it always makes me teary eyed when I see Dennis's flashback.

[01:21:13] I think that's why like it's stuck in my brain from, I think I was 15, 14 when I, when I, when I first watched it, he's helpless. And yes, she tied him up and did everything, but he, to the end, he was hoping she'd be better and she wouldn't do this. And he's like, mom, I can't breathe. And it's like, yeah, we're attached to the ideas of who our parents should be and who we deserve rather than who they are. And.

[01:21:41] Well, we're surrounded by so many messages in our culture of honor your parents, obey your parents, love your parents, your parents love you. That's. And so you want to believe it. And little kids don't have the experience or the brain development to go. What's happening here. Isn't really about. Even adults.

[01:22:08] Well, she says that line that parent, this hurts me more than it hurts you. No, it doesn't. You just buried your son in a wall. Just suffocate. I just. You know, and it was very, it was very satisfying that immediately after she clutched her heart and fell out. Only. I mean, she wasn't around letting him out of there. She was going to kill him. No. She hung them. Yeah. No.

[01:22:35] That is the fastest stucco job I've ever seen in my entire life. I did. I did. Yeah. Seriously. It takes like days to complete a job like that. Did evil fuel her speed? I mean. Something. It looked really good. Like the wall looked. It was beautiful. Professional. Was it practice? Yeah. I love that Cordy's like, I knew I didn't like that. Yeah. Her sense. The one thing, one thing that Cordy has is very strong sense of aesthetics, right?

[01:23:04] Like she makes things around her look pretty. And she knew that wall wasn't right in the architecture, right? There was something about it that was like, that's got to go. And I am like that about architecture too. I'm like, oh, this room needs to be rearranged. The number of times I have rearranged furniture in a public house. Because I'm like, you've got this. This is all wrong. Next time, we're going to videotape Penny doing that.

[01:23:35] My family has done it in a number of hospital waiting rooms. Where we're like, this is set up badly. We're just going to rearrange everything. And had people come out and be like, you can't do that. And we're like, we did it. What do you think? How do you feel? Sometimes they're like, oh, this is better. Yes. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Right? Like the way you had it before. The chair was blocking the path. And this thing was. And there was no natural light. We fixed all that stuff. You should thank us.

[01:24:04] I mean, I'm sure there are a lot of people out there who have been like, ugh, that family. As long as you didn't call names. I can't stand it. As long as you didn't call names. I can't stand it when I see something set up wrong. It's actually really funny. My place, my condo that I own has a couple of things that were decided by the previous owner about how things are structured that have been driving me crazy now for 13 years. Is there a ghost in there? Maybe there's someone buried in there.

[01:24:33] Well, I did do a Wiccan cleansing ceremony when I bought the place. Nice. I had. So you got rid of your dentist. It was empty. I don't think it would have been a dentist. The guy who lived here before was like, woohoo. Oh. Yeah. I had like 12 friends over. And we did some chanting. We burned cedar, lemongrass, and sage. That's so good. And, you know, we smoked, we smudged the whole place and it got rid of the really bad mojo

[01:25:03] that was left by the previous owner. My friends were really funny. They came over and I was like, okay, here's the smudge sticks and here's the Wiccan chant. And they were like, you were serious about that? And I was like, 100%. Yes. They're like, oh, we thought that you were just like, come over and see my new place. Ha, ha, ha. We'll do a cleansing ceremony. And I'm like, no, there was no ha, ha, ha. What's the downside to doing it, people? Well, they all did it eventually. It just took a few minutes.

[01:25:33] Like they were all like, wait, we're actually doing this? I was like, yeah, we're doing it. Yeah. There's legitimately no downside to do it. Whatever someone's like, we're going to smudge or sage. And I'm like, yeah, let's do it. There's no downside to it. It's like meditation. You're not going to hurt yourself. Yeah. It's squeaky clean. Yeah. It was important to me to, you know, for the first place I ever owned, I was like, I want it to be like completely mine. Yes. So I got to get rid of all these ghosts or the bad.

[01:26:02] I called it bad juju. There was just a vibe that felt weird. Absolutely. And I was like, I just need it gone. Absolutely. Yeah. That's a good job. And you haven't had hauntings. I have not had hauntings. Also, my niece put paint handprints all over my floor and stairs to guard me from monsters. And she pointed out that since I don't have any monsters, it is working. Oh, that is the sweetest thing I've ever heard.

[01:26:32] That is very cute. Okay. So we're going to have to have Winnie do it in my apartment. Yeah. But that's adorable. She's protected me from monsters and I always see it all the time. That is cute. The handprints have been there now for seven years. I am not going to ever paint. No. Absolutely. It's guarding you. I mean, the minute you paint over them, you're going to have poltergeist. Yeah. Monsters. It's going to be like the evil dead. Maud would be a monster problem. Yeah.

[01:27:02] Maud that mean Maud does. Oh my gosh. Can you imagine? No. Ugh. I just also like. I would take her down. That's what also like, you know, I was like, yeah, that just really wouldn't work with me. Yeah. Yeah. That's I, I, because I was like, what would I do if Maud showed up like that and was trying to do that? Definitely call an exorcist. I'd be like, I survived my own.

[01:27:32] Mean mom. Like, you aren't even remotely on her level. Yeah. I'm sorry, Maud. You're too obvious. You're. You're not manipulative enough. You're too vanilla. You, you, you're like the light version. You're not even a worthy villain. You're not the light version of it. The LaCroix version of it. I probably just LaCroix evil. What is it people say? The teaming version. LaCroix evil. Yeah. The teaming version. The teaming version. The teaming version.

[01:28:01] I love it. Yeah. Yeah. I would probably start therapizing her and she'd leave. Yeah. That would be hilarious. That's another good spit we can do for the internet. It's like just therapizing a ghost until they give up on one. They would absolutely leave. Bye. Yeah. She'd be like, ugh, I don't want to talk about my trauma. Like, okay, who hurt you, Maud? And let's talk about why you feel the need to act this way towards other people.

[01:28:31] She'd be like, you can have it. I'm out. It's your apartment. I really like this place anyway. Bye. What about you, Becky? What would you do if Maud accidentally haunted your home? I'd be calling Penny and be like, get over here with your lemongrass and sage and chance. Because I don't have time for this woman.

[01:29:00] I would have to stop talking to her in my show. I would definitely want to help you. During my shows. You're interrupting my shows. Oh my gosh. Talk about someone who would love reality TV. I feel like Maud missed out. Eve cost her to have that. She would love to feel superior to all those traps. Oh, she would. 100%. She'd be like, oh, this. I relate to them. He probably calls a lot of them tramps. Ah, hussies. She prefers to people.

[01:29:30] That's like a, yeah. Hussies. Yes. Yeah. Tarts. Tarts. As we discussed earlier. Oh my goodness. Yeah. Oh, she's a tramp. One thing that we haven't talked about that is not one of the major parts of the episode, but that I love is the actual apartment hunt. Oh my gosh. I clipped the whole. Oh good. We can listen to it. That's amazing. You know, I wish you'd just let me call my guy. I'm not getting an apartment through some guy.

[01:29:59] He probably judges the property value on how far the bus ride is to the track. Well, it can't get any worse than this, can I? Can't tell anything from the hallway. Hey, you're right. You know what I smell in here? Potential. The next one will be better. It's like a community, you know? We share all the upkeep and chores.

[01:30:29] And my urination just hasn't been public enough lately. Oh, we don't believe in barriers. It's the first rule of the great leader. Uh, you can go to the meetings if you want. Every morning at five. Okay. That's just a touch too early for me. Oh, you'll be up. The chanting starts at four. So, uh, you a single gal? Gonna be living here alone? Because I'm right across the hall and you can sleep easy knowing I'm the only other soul in the world with a key to that door.

[01:30:58] You think about that while you look, okay? Okay. Just out of curiosity, you say you know a guy. Finally. What is it with you and Angel? You gotta do everything the hard way. I, that second guy. Oh, God. He made my spin. That is so funny. Oh, my God. Oh, my God.

[01:31:25] It's so funny because I remember looking for apartments in New York City when I was going to law school in 1998. And the things that I saw, like, the apartments I visited where they were like, oh, you're not allowed to have any guests over. Um, and you have to be naked. And I'd be like, I'm out. Bye-bye. What? People would just say, like, really weird stuff. They'd be like, no eating after 6 p.m. in the apartment. What? Like, okay, that one's not an option.

[01:31:55] How do you monitor that? Like, what? Yeah. That's where I would be like, yeah, there's, mm-mm. I'm out of here. I saw a bunch of apartments that were, like, overpriced with sketchy potential roommates and, like, bathtubs in the kitchen. All that stuff. I finally found an apartment in Brooklyn with another law student who was only mildly psychotic. So, it worked out. But, oh, God. The apartment search was terrifying. Just, like, nonstop.

[01:32:25] Like, gross, roachy, like, falling apart places with, like, skeevy, weird dudes who, like, want you to be their, like, live-in girlfriend. I just, it was gross. They'd be like, do you have a lot of single girlfriends that'll be coming over? It's like Joey from Friends. Yeah, when he wanted Elma Pearson to be his roommate. And then he gets a supermodel. Yeah.

[01:32:53] I haven't had those experiences. And thank you for reminding me that it could be worse. Of, I've mostly had, yeah, crazy roommates. But, yeah, they weren't like that. Um, and, yeah, mostly just a lot of cigarette smoke, weed smoke, and, or noise issues. Like, I'm a really light sleeper.

[01:33:21] So, like, obviously I will always wait until quiet hours. I mean, you know, that's, that's just how it goes. And I would never, um, care if it was, like, I'm taking a nap. It's like, yeah, I mean, everyone's allowed to use their music or whatever. But, yeah, no, no, no blasting Celine Dion at 1 a.m., please. Um, but, yeah, like, it's, and it's, it's not great.

[01:33:43] Like, I think I was telling Penny and Kara this, of my last apartment, and, um, they had, I don't know what happened to this day. I don't know what my upstairs neighbor was doing. Because I, I couldn't figure out how to have a conversation with them about it. Because I've never met them. But at least twice a month, between the times of 1 and 4 a.m., they would smack down. And it, it sounded like someone fell out of bed. I mean, maybe they did.

[01:34:12] Yeah, like, honestly, it kind of sounded like someone died when I first heard it. I was like, like, I don't, I don't, like, I don't know what to do. Um, but then it kept happening. So, either they were a ghost. That, it was only, like, twice a month. It wasn't all the time. And it just would always startle me out of sleep. And then it, then it would be silence. So, it was always, like, the weirdest thing. And I had no idea how to breach that conversation of, like, do you almost die twice a month between 1 and 4?

[01:34:42] Because it sounds like you hit this floor real hard. Like, not, not even like you jumped. Like, it's, it's like you jumped from the bed to the floor. No, no, no. Something, sounds like something bad happened. But then there's silence. So, um. My current upstairs neighbors make a lot of weird noises that I can't recognize. And there are nights when Pixel and I are sitting on the couch, both of us looking at the couch. What are they doing up there? Yes, yes.

[01:35:12] And I keep being like, I want to, I should just go up and knock on the door and be like, what are you doing? But I'm already in my pajamas, so. Yeah. I'll do it next time. One of these days I'll go up there and be like, what's the rolling sound? Oh, yeah. I have heard that before, too. I wonder if that's someone's exercise equipment. Because it sounds repetitive. Maybe. It sounds like. Which is super helpful for a podcast.

[01:35:40] I had an upstairs neighbor in a dorm one time. And there was this god-awful booming noise coming into my dorm room. And so I called and I was like, hi, I'm your downstairs neighbor. What are you doing? Are you doing something that's going to make like a booming noise? And he's like, no, I'm just playing my drum kit. I was like, that. What noise does it make? That's the noise. Did he think it was like old school Batman? Like, pow.

[01:36:09] What did he think you were describing? I was like, that, yeah, that sounds like what the noise is that's so loud and annoying. And he was like, oh, I didn't think you could hear it. I'm like, it's really loud. What do you mean? I didn't think you could hear it. I have ears and you're not that far away. Yeah. Oh, my God. I will say one of my favorite. That's part of adult life. It's pretty normal.

[01:36:39] Like, one of my favorite things. And I have. I don't think I shared this on the podcast. But I. One of my first apartments here was actually the same building with the loud noise in the middle of the night occasionally. Had a. It was a new building. And for some reason, when they built in the fire alarm system, they made it super sensitive so that every time it rained, the fire alarm would go off to the point that it was going

[01:37:06] off several times a month to the point where no one started evacuating when the. And again, like the fire truck showed up. This wasn't a drill. We we would stop going outside. And I remember one time I had to take a patient session. So I grabbed my laptop and my cat and I went into my car in the garage with like, OK, you know, I'll run if there's smoke. And I was just there doing the session because it's not really good idea to talk about trauma

[01:37:36] with blaring alarms in the background. So I was able to. It's just no one's having a good time. And I remember being in my car in the parking garage of the fire alarm building and the firefighters just waved at me as they walked past. They were like, yep, yep. Like they didn't. They were like, yep. No, this isn't. That's fine. Yeah. Any bad places for you, Becky? How about you? Do you have any like crazy apartment stories or real estate stories?

[01:38:07] Sounds like it. Honestly, I've been pretty lucky in the roommate department. But the most annoying is my best friend. When I first moved out of my mom's house and, you know, going to college, we lived in an apartment, me and my best friend. And she had a bit of, I'm not, I'm not kidding. We were both dramatic individuals.

[01:38:37] But she was absolutely in love with this guy who we've been trying to tell her for two years was gay. And she, he finally shut her down. And she, I'm not kidding. For 48 hours stayed locked in her room, blaring Michael Jackson's You Are Not Alone. Oh, God.

[01:39:05] And I am, when I hear that song to this day, I am triggered. That's, I mean, I haven't, roommate-wise, haven't had a lot of crazy. And where we live now, we live in like a mother-in-law style house behind the land, the person we rent from. So it's quiet and it's, it's pretty cool.

[01:39:30] We've had a few weird neighbors, but we just, we just don't look that way and try to avoid seeing, you know, the cops will show up and you're, you're like, what's going on over there? But you really don't want to know what's going on over there kind of situation. But I've been pretty fortunate in that respect. You're just sweeping the grass. You're like, what's going on over there? Vacuuming the grass.

[01:39:59] Like, oh, what's going on? That's what I would do. Just, just raking the driveway. Huh. What's going on over here? Oh, God. That's very funny.

[01:40:23] Well, I think we have done enough damage to the stuff. We really have. Sorry, everyone. Let's move on to some pop, not so pop culture references. All right. Yes. So Cordelia listens to the song. You always hurt the ones you love by the Mills brothers in her apartment.

[01:40:55] Oh, just like the mom was hurting. I wonder if she was sort of picking up on that. Doyle says, what about friendship and family and all those things that are priceless? Like they say in that credit card commercial. This is a reference to MasterCard adverts. Yeah. Right around this time, MasterCard's advertising campaign was like, you know, two tickets to

[01:41:21] visit grandma, $600, spending time with grandma, priceless. Yes. There was a whole like series of, of ads like that. Yeah. Cordelia frets about losing a part to a woman who quote, looked like Catwoman taking out the cat trap. I love Dwell trying to help her feel better.

[01:41:49] But him thinking like, this is not your niche, Cordy. Yeah. He's like, no. And he squicked me out a little bit. Like you can see like the JW in there when he's talking to Angel and he's like, he helped Cordy find this apartment. He's like, yeah, she's going to be real grateful for a long time. Like, ew. Oh, yeah. Ew. There's every, Doyle's fascination with Cordelia.

[01:42:13] Like, I want to find it cute that he likes her, but he says and does things sometimes that are like, like when he's like, oh, if you ever need a place to stay, you can come to my apartment. Like. Yeah. Yeah. It's so clear that he's being sort of skeevy about it. It's JW. Cordy obviously picks up on it right away. But, uh. Yeah. Doyle. Outdated. Doyle, your JW is leaking.

[01:42:39] I am so going to use that on people and they're going to have no idea what I mean. Thank you so much for that, Sam. That was beautiful. Cordelia calls the ghost in her apartment Casper the friendly ghost character.

[01:43:09] Aw, Dennis is friendly. Yeah. Yeah, Dennis is kind of a Casper. Except Casper's like a dead, like, three-year-old. That's the creepy thing about Casper. Yeah. Oh. They tried to make it romantic, too. It got real weird real fast. Yeah. Cordelia describes her apartment's smell as the smell of old lady, love violets and asper cream. And asper cream is a brand of pain relief, like for if you have arthritis or something.

[01:43:38] Cordelia says old lady. Oh, thanks for this one. Cordelia says old lady ghost. How come Patrick Swayze is never dead when you need him? A reference to the actor's title role in the 1990 film Ghost. And that didn't age well. Yeah. Did not age well based on Patrick Swayze actually being gone. But, um. Yeah. Like nine years later. Although he is the ghost I would prefer to that old lady. Yes.

[01:44:08] Oh, yeah. Patrick Swayze, if he wants to come watercolor with me. Yeah. Yeah. I'm down. I love it. Come paint with you ladies. Right? Yes. Absolutely. Cordelia calls Mod Polygrip a brand of dental denture adhesives. Okay. I have a quick funny story about Polygrip. So, I had this crown.

[01:44:34] I had this crown that had, and they put a temporary crown on and it kept like the temporary crown kept coming off. And it kept having to go back to the dentist to get it fixed until the new one came in. So, he's one day, it's like, just get Polygrip and use it to keep the crown on until the new one comes in. So, I did.

[01:44:59] But one night, I was in a bowling league with some friends that our company we used to work for. And one night, we're bowling and we're having the best time. And I said something and my cheek went flying out of my mouth and landed on my friend Mike's hand and he's just looking at it. And I'm like, the polygrip is not working. And it was the whole thing.

[01:45:27] So, anytime I see any denture commercial, I would think of that stupid temporary crown that would not stay on. That's amazing. I love the idea that your friends are like, oh gosh, she's on my hand right now. I'm just like, don't click it. I'm not paying for another one. Are you okay, Becky?

[01:45:55] Your bones are falling out. Yeah, it's usually not a good sign when someone's teeth just like fall out of their mouth. Right, it's like one of those bad dreams you have. I've watched a lot. Yeah. I've watched a lot of Supernatural and people losing teeth on that show always means witchcraft. Absolutely. If it ever happens again, you could always run the...

[01:46:23] Because I made this joke to my dentist when I also had a crown put on. When he was taking out my tooth and putting in the crown, I'm like, that's so my human teeth will go back in, right? And he's like, yeah. He's like, what other teeth would you have? And I was like, wow. I know the other teeth. He's like, what? I'm like, I'm joking, doc. That is amazing. Oh, I wish I could be a fly on the wall for that.

[01:46:53] That would be awesome. Yeah, I just, I always try to use humor. And so I'm like, you know the other teeth that come in. And I was like a fully grown adult. He's like, I know his dental assistant. I'm going to need to see her childhood dental records stat. Also, that's enough of the laughing guy. You need to be on it right now.

[01:47:21] Oh, yeah, we've been laughing a lot. So I do have a quick joke. Well, not really a joke, but it's sort of the laughing gas reminded me. And I don't think there's going to be another story where this would be relevant. I went to, I was having my wisdom teeth pulled when I was like not old enough to be telling this joke to my dentist. But like 12 or 13. So kind of around like this season of Angel.

[01:47:51] And they had to like give you laughing gas. They had to knock me out because they had to crack my jaw to get in there to remove them. So I'm really nervous. Never been sedated. All that stuff. Everything goes fine. And then I come back to have the stitches removed. Because yes, that's how old I am. They didn't have dissolvable stitches back then. And so I come back in. And the nurse is like, you told us the funniest joke when you were here last time. And I was like, really? And she's like, yeah. Oh my gosh. We were cracking up. I have no memory of this.

[01:48:21] And so I was like, what joke did I tell you? And she's like, you told us the joke about the guy with a hundred dollar bill on his privates. And I was like, don't tell my mom. Don't do a genital relationship. To my dentist. And the nurse is there. So I don't know if we would just believe it. I mean, it's not that bad. But like something a 12, 13 year old should be telling their medical team.

[01:48:51] No matter how high they are. Hilarious. I still remember it because I'm still embarrassed that it happened. A guy goes into a tattoo parlor wanting a hundred dollar bill tattooed on his privates. And the tattoo nurse goes, okay, but you have to tell me why. And the guy goes, it's threefold. One, I like to play with my money. Two, I like to watch my money grow. And three, when my wife wants to blow a hundred dollars, she can do it at home. And that's what I'm talking about.

[01:49:21] 12 years old me told my adult healthcare team. I don't know why. I don't know what prompted that. I was not in a joke telling mind frame. So that just reminded me, totally tangential. But yes. Like, I don't know when that's going to be relevant in our podcasting again. Well, this will be a come down.

[01:49:49] Cordelia talks about knowing celebrities such as actor Steve Pamer, who is brother of the actor David Pamer, and has appeared in shows such as Will and Grace, Heart of Dixie, The Big Bang Theory, and Boston Comet. There you go. That wraps up the pop and not pop culture references. And we're moving on to trivia. Yeah. Writer Jane Espenson intended the episode's title to match the format of a classified ad.

[01:50:16] She also considered release as a possible title. I like the one that she went with. Yeah. Yeah, but release is funny too. Yeah. I like it. Oh, I just got that. Re-lease. Oh, okay. Yeah, that's good. It's clever, clever in there. Jane knew what it was about. That's okay. It took me a while to realize what Room with a View meant. Like, I was looking at the episode title. I'm like, Room with a View?

[01:50:47] Like a vanity plate. They're all good. The episode is really all about Cordelia regaining her inner bitch, says supervising producer Tim Minear. Yeah, Tim, maybe you should have had another member of the team say that. Right. Yeah. That's not so great.

[01:51:12] Regarding Angel's shower scene, Jane Espenson said, I put that scene in there because frankly, I knew there wouldn't be a woman on the planet who wouldn't enjoy seeing David Boreanaz shirtless and dripping wet. Amen. God bless you, Jane Espenson. Yeah. Yeah. Appreciate it. She's right. We all enjoyed that. We all do. Absolutely. Charisma Carpenter lists this episode as one of her personal favorites, and I completely agree. Mine too. Yeah. Yeah. It's a great episode for her.

[01:51:41] Yeah, for sure. So cool. So cool. Cordelia's friend, Aura, who she speaks to on the phone in this episode is first seen in the series premiere of Buffy, Welcome to the Hellmouth, in which the Buffyverse's first dead body, a boy bitten and drained by Darla, falls out of her gym locker. Hmm. Aura is mentioned again in Prophecy Girl. I remember her. That's cool. I had no memory of this. I have no memory of that. That's fine.

[01:52:10] Bet Becky has the good memory. We're like, I don't remember. That is only because Prime Video has a Buffy the Vampire Slayer channel, and I keep it on a lot in the background working, and that it cycles through the entire series, and then cycles back, and that just happened to be one I saw when I watched it. It was about Pasta TV. It is not because I remember. Yeah. Repetition. I like it.

[01:52:38] I think I know the answers to this question, but does it still slay? Becky? Yes. 100%. Yes. Sam? I second that. Absolutely. Yeah. This episode has always been one of my favorites, especially in Angel season one, which I think is pretty uneven. This is like a high watermark. It's funny. It has action.

[01:53:08] It has character development. Like, shirtless David Boreanaz. Like, what is not to love? Yeah. I gotta say, I've been watching a lot of Bones lately, and going from an episode of Angel to an episode of Bones is such a mind trip. It's like, wait, he's the same, but he's not the same. Yeah. It looks the same, but it's his other twin. His evil twin, who sometimes says good things? He's in the daylight.

[01:53:37] No, don't go in the daylight. This one's okay to go, this one smiles. This one does not. Exactly. We do have just a small amount of news about the Buffyverse. Sadly, Michelle Trachtenberg, this came out today. She died yesterday, I think, at the age of 39 due to complications related to a liver transplant.

[01:54:03] I don't know why she needed a liver transplant at such a young age, but it's, I just, I don't even know what to say. When somebody dies so young, it's just tragic. And a lot of, you know, former castmates of hers from Buffy, from Gossip Girl, from Harriet the Spy, have been, you know, posting on social media all day.

[01:54:30] Memories of her, photos of her, and the sort of prevailing opinion that I gleaned was that she was, like, sunny and light on set. She was, like, fun to have around, you know, kind, sweet, just kind of like you would expect from watching her as Dawn. For any listeners who have never seen the shows before, Michelle Trachtenberg joins the cast of Buffy in season five.

[01:54:57] So we haven't gotten there yet on the podcast, but she becomes a very important character in the later seasons. She was also, this past, within the last six months, I did a rewatch of Six Feet Under. And she played, she was on Six Feet Under. The one that David's husband was the bodyguard for. Oh, yeah. The body, yeah, the celebrity. I forgot about that.

[01:55:25] Yeah, she was, you know, like you said, like Harriet the Spy, she was in Gossip Girl. From, you know, the reports are still new, so there's going to be a lot of stuff out there. But she was found by her mom, unfortunately, around 8 a.m. this morning on Wednesday at the age of 39 in her New York City apartment. They, like Penny was saying, they don't suspect foul play.

[01:55:51] They believe it's most likely a complication from her liver transplant earlier that year, which is unusual. They are going to have an autopsy to determine cause and manner of death, but it would make sense to, unfortunately. But, yeah, it's just a really, really sad thing of just a suddenness and just a loss, I think, for family, friends, and us as fans.

[01:56:19] Whenever I think about celebrities who pass away and, you know, the sadness I feel, you know, it's the humanness in us, obviously. And it's also, like, yes, we don't know them personally. We know what their characters represented to us and how that impacted our life. And I think that's what really gets to the heart of it. I know there's a documentary out about Matthew Perry's passing.

[01:56:46] And it's just, it's this outpouring of grief. And it's because of what they meant to us and what they continue to. And speaking of which, Sarah Michelle Gellar has spoken up about this and said that in regards to Michelle Trachtenberg and the reboot, spinoff, whatever this new phase of Buffy Project is, she goes, this one's for you. So, yeah.

[01:57:14] I was hoping they were going to bring her back and have her play Dawn again. Absolutely. This just breaks my heart. And, you know, whenever someone dies so young, it's just, it feels incomprehensible. Absolutely. The best thing we can do is love the people we love with the time that we have with them. Yeah. And you never, because you never know. Never know. You know, that is a little bit of the radical acceptance I use. Speaking of like therapy, I use it on myself too.

[01:57:44] A little bit of yellow of like, nothing's promised to us. Like, knock on wood, we could walk outside tomorrow and get hit by a bus. No one's promised anything. So, you know, live your life. Love the people that you love. Let them know. That kind of stuff. Because it's important. It is. Speaking of people that we love. I'm a little thirsty. Do you guys want to go to the bronze?

[01:58:14] And talk to some listeners? That would be awesome. I thought you were going to say blood. And I was very confused. That's where my brain is getting. Yes, please. Drinks at the bronze. Bronze things. Things of bronze. All right. Well, from Facebook, Randy says, I love the roommate relationship Cordelia develops with Dennis over the series.

[01:58:43] Out of the Scooby gang, I would have voted Cordelia least likely to be incredibly chill with having a haunted hotel. That's true. Yeah, same. It's interesting that Dennis is usually a comedic character considering his story is so dark. The image of him being bricked up in the wall has always stuck with me. Partly because it's in the intro. Yeah. Yes, it is. Repetition.

[01:59:13] Yeah, those are great points. Yeah. Absolutely. And we got an email from Coffee and Vodka. Greetings, spectral slayers. First of all, ghost movie pop culture reference aside, Cordelia wishing for Patrick Swayze's demise a decade before his death at 57. The same age as Mrs. Maude Pearson, the ghost in her rental, was kind of uncanny. Oh, that's so cool. I didn't know that. That is crazy.

[01:59:43] That was weird. Beyond this, an ep which started slow but swiftly built up in speed and menace until its Act 3 climax. A good and proper, well-plotted ghost story complete with inciting incident and vengeful solution. Just, oops, so, you know, good.

[02:00:06] He gave it four submissive spirits, deadbeat doyles, and blown deposits out of five. Peace and take care, Coffee and Vodka. Awesome as usual. As always. Fantastic. I love your rating system. Yes. He's, like, yeah, so creative. Hi, Coffee and Vodka.

[02:00:29] I heard your feedback on the podcast that they did on the Penguin, and I loved your sign-off name. Oh, TV Podcast Industries. Yes, thank you. Thank you. I was trying to get there in my head. So, I loved your feedback. I love that show, and it was always fun to hear your thoughts. So, hello. Just want to say hi. Yeah. Yeah.

[02:00:55] I had first heard of, outside of the Still Slaying podcast, I had heard Coffee and Vodka's awesome feedback for the boys for Podcast Industries, too, which I listened to a lot. So, yeah, I always really liked his thoughts, too. Yeah. I love the rating system the most. I think it's really clever, and it's such a nice personal, like, touch that he adds. Love it. It's great.

[02:01:23] We have, speaking of somebody with their own personal style, we have a voicemail from Steve. Hello, Still Slaying. This is Steve, and I am about to watch Angel season one episode, I don't know what number it is, Room with a View. Cordelia, the phone's ringing, but I love Charisma Carpenter so much. When she's doing bad acting, it's great. Did Cordy have cordets at the end of the season when she, but yeah, that she lost it all, Gordon Angel. Yeah.

[02:01:52] Doyle comes home to a ringing phone and a demon in his house. Partman. Cordelia is great. He's standing there literally in a towel, and she's going on about her bags, and she's going to stay there for quite a while. What is the necklace that Angel is wearing around his neck? What is on that? It's not a cross. It's a, I don't know. Did Cordelia get the peanut butter on the bed, or is that from when Angel was with Buffy a few episodes ago? I do wonder. I wasn't sure. Yeah, and Angel just does not catch the social cues. Hey, there's a big guy here looking for you, Doyle. Oh, it was a trick.

[02:02:22] I get it. And my urination just has not been public enough lately. Yeah. I'm holed up with Snowden for the next couple of days here, so I'm going to get ahead of the game with some of these episodes, I think. But this one, I love this episode of Angel. Creepy community to Creeper apartment manager. This place is amazing, Cordelia, I can tell. Oh, and the previous tenant just broke at least a week ago. Yeah. It's not creepy, not sinister at all.

[02:02:49] Oh, but there's something in the wall that Cordelia wants to take down. That face. Um, yeah, Cordelia doesn't look grateful at the moment, Doyle. Discovered there's a ghost in this house. Nothing bad here, except the old woman in the mirror. And Cordelia speaks to the audience. Wait, I didn't even have a place when I invited you in. And these rules are all screwed up. A retroactive invitation is valid. We're vampires in this universe. Okay, we got to try to put the ghost to rest. Oh, Cordelia, working for redemption.

[02:03:18] Oh, I'm choked up. Listen to her talk about the punishment and the punishment ending. Oh, good old ghost reference from Patrick Swayze. Is Angel in the bedroom? Oh, I remember now. Ghosts can make, can do impressions. Oh, the foreshadowing, the kind of killer that makes it look like she's a suicide. That's for spoilers. Oh, okay, they got there in time. And she's just barely choking. But this woman played on Cutie's, what are they called? Yeah, self-consciousness. Oh, come on, Cordelia. Get up and be the, be the, be where you are.

[02:03:47] Oh, the demon brigade. Oh, and the ghost doesn't like the demons being there either. Oh, there's the look. I'm a bee. Cry Buffy. Yeah, well, she pissed me off. Oh, and they found Dennis. I have a roommate, but I never see him. Phantom Dennis, put that back. Great episode. Awesome. Thanks, Steve. Awesome. I love the love Steve. I love his messages. He's so awesome.

[02:04:15] And I appreciated you not calling Cordelia a bitch and saying the B word. Yeah. I appreciate that. Thanks, Steve. It's awesome. Yeah, we said it a lot in this episode. So I hope people are okay with that word. And I know I said a swear word earlier. I'll have to bleep that out. I can't wait to see what words you choose. Yeah, I got to think about that. All right. That's the end of the main section of the podcast.

[02:04:43] Stay tuned for The Watcher's Diaries if you want to hear the spoilery discussion. If you'd like to join the conversation, you can find all of our contact information at podcastica.com and in the show notes of each episode. Also at podcastica.com, you'll find our social media pages and all of our other shows. Right now, I am obsessed with White Lotus. I am loving White Lotus. It's so funny.

[02:05:13] And the Welcome to the White Lotus podcast is really great. They have great chemistry on there. They always make me laugh. What are you guys listening to? Well, I am obsessed with Yellow Jackets, obviously. So I'm thoroughly enjoying your old Yellow Jackets podcast. And if I can mention my podcast one more time, what's on tonight, where we're covering the amazing show, The Pit.

[02:05:42] So check that out as well. Awesome. Awesome. Awesome. And I have listened to Adrenaline Cinema podcasts. They covered The Gorge, which is a movie on Apple TV. They did a fantastic job as usual. And Run For Your Lives just covered Nosferatu. And that was a fantastic episode. I thought they did such a great job with going into a nuance of a very popular and yet complex film.

[02:06:10] So yeah, I haven't seen it yet. So I haven't listened to that episode yet, but I loved their episode on the substance. That was great. Yes. Yeah. It's very similar. Like it was wonderful. And if you like what we do, give us a five star rating, a review, or a like. Follow and subscribe. Next time we'll be covering Angels Season 1, Episode 6, Sense and Sensitivity. Thanks everyone. And...

[02:06:40] I am not giving up this apartment. It's haunted. It's rent controlled. All right. That's the end of the non-spoiler section. And if you want to avoid spoilers, this is the time. Just stop listening. Give you a couple seconds. Get your phone out. Stop listening. Okay. On to The Watcher's Diaries. We can spoil anything we want now. It's too bad we can't sneak a look at The Watcher Diaries and read up on Angel.

[02:07:08] I'm sure it's full of fun facts to know and tell. Yeah. That's too bad. That stuff is private. Also, Giles keeps them in his office in his personal files. Most importantly, it would be wrong. The bitch thing comes back. Yes.

[02:07:33] There's a scene when Lila has been tortured by... There's this horrible half-demon guy who makes men attack women. And Lila gets beat up. And Cordelia approaches her and is like, you're a vicious bitch. I'm a vicious bitch. I know what that means. Like, you know, basically saying, like, stand in your power. Be powerful. And Lila ends up taking out that demon. And it's incredibly satisfying.

[02:08:02] Even though Cordelia and Lila, like, they're not friends. They're not bonded. But they do have this thing in common that they are both these incredibly powerful women who have probably been called a bitch many, many times in their life. Yeah, I love that. I've always loved that episode and that scene. I think it's an amazing episode. Yeah, it's, you know, it kind of reminds me of our long-lost RIP TV show that still lives

[02:08:32] in my brain. The Amazon Prime show, The Power, where women gained the supernatural abilities for self-defense. That was a good show. And it just is not coming back. It was canceled or in limbo. Oh, it's not? No, it was supposed to be. And then it's just been in limbo. It's just they've moved on to other projects now. So hopefully, maybe in the future.

[02:09:00] Definitely not right now. But yeah, it just reminds me of in that show, it was the younger girls and young women who could activate this power in the adult women around them and the older women that were there, like reminding them of how amazing they are, reawakening that power in them. So that just, whenever I, you know, that reminds me of the Cordy and Lila scene of like, remember

[02:09:29] the power of being a bitch. Like, this is our power. Step back into it. And she does. And she wins. Yeah. It's amazing. I loved the power. I'm sad that it's not coming back. It was really good. I know. And it did something that I hope the new Buffy, whatever, reboot, revision, whatever that is, deals with, which is they had a character who was intersex, who was masculine presenting,

[02:09:58] but had the power because he, they had enough female to, for it to activate whatever the science is. I can't remember either. Quote science, unquote, is. And I always have thought about like, are there slayers who are intersex or trans? Like, does the slayer magic extend to, you know, women or girls, I guess it's always girls,

[02:10:26] who are not, you know, within the narrowest definition of female? And how much fun would it be for there to be some characters like that in the new show? That sounds awesome. Awesome. Yeah. That would be amazing. That would be very cool. And very in line with Buffy. You know, you don't make a show about. Yeah. It would fit. You don't make a show about a, I mean, JW has been very forward about, I wanted to make

[02:10:52] a show where the blonde actually fights back and wins because she was always killed and tormented and tortured, which. Or had to be rescued by some dude. Yes. Yeah. And so like, you know, the whole spirit and essence of the show is empowering people who are typically disempowered in our society. And that would be amazing to see. And really the next level.

[02:11:16] So doing what Buffy did in the late 90s, early 2000s for the 2025s. Although having female heroin might be a good idea nowadays too. Yeah. For real. Well, I don't. We need it. I don't want the main character to necessarily be. Oh, yeah. Yeah. But having representation would be amazing. I like that idea. Yeah. That would be great.

[02:11:45] Well, I think that we're done. What do you think? Yeah. I had the stuff with Doyle develops later on. I feel like we really didn't get much of a hint at it. Like they kind of kept it a secret until later on. Yeah. Yeah. They did. Yeah. There's the episode, The Bachelor Party is going to be very illuminating about Doyle. And then, of course, Hero is a major one for him. Makes me cry every time.

[02:12:12] And I'm happy to come back for any Doyle-centric episodes that you guys might want. I'm happy to come on for any episode. So you guys just call me and I'll be there. But I definitely love the Doyle-centric episodes this season. Thank you, Becky. We will definitely have you back on. Absolutely. This has been delightful. That'd be great. Come on to the Hero episode. You can watch me cry again. We'll cry together. How's that?

[02:12:42] That would be adorable. And I will take photos of it. They'll be very artistic photos. They'll be very beautiful. Right. Right. Yeah. Screenshots of the Zoom screen. Oh, my gosh. We should totally do that. On the episodes, we know we're going to cry. I think so. Especially for a future Buffy episode. I think everyone will be crying at it. Yeah. Let's not think about that right now. Stay hydrated.

[02:13:12] All right. That's the complete end of our show. Thanks, everybody, for listening. And until next time, I'm Penny. I'm Becky. And your JW is leaking. And I'm Sam. And that's Loki in the background meowing. Keep slaying. He's leaking. Okay.