5: "Surprise" (BTVS S2E13)

[00:00:00] Podcastica, Jennie Calendos. You startled me. You look well. Yes I'm fine. I know I haven't written

[00:00:24] as much lately I've been busy. I cannot imagine what is so important to make you ignore the

[00:00:31] responsibility to your people. I've been working and... The elder woman has been reading science.

[00:00:38] Something is different. Nothing has changed. The curse still holds. The elder woman is never wrong.

[00:00:46] She says his pain is lessening. She can feel it. There is. There is what? A girl. What? How could you let this

[00:00:59] happen? I promise you, Angel still suffers and he makes amends for his evil. He even saved my life.

[00:01:07] So you just forget that he destroyed the most beloved daughter of your tribe, that he killed every man,

[00:01:16] woman and child that touched her life. Fengence demands that his pain be eternal as ours is. If this

[00:01:26] girl gives him one minute of happiness it is one minute too much. I'm sorry I thought...

[00:01:32] You thought what? You thought you are Jennie Calendos now? You are still Yana of the Calderage people

[00:01:42] in Chipsy. I know, Uncle.

[00:01:50] I know. Then prove it. The time for watching is past. The girl and him it ends now.

[00:02:01] Do what you must to take her from him. I will see to it.

[00:02:31] Hello everybody. Welcome to our podcast. I'm Penny and I'm Ann Wynn. And this is still

[00:02:40] slaying a Buffyverse podcast dedicated to all things Buffy. This episode we're going to start with

[00:02:47] highlights from season two, episode 12. Then we'll be celebrating Buffy's 17th birthday in

[00:02:52] surprise. Season two, episode 13 directed by Michael Lungy and written by J.W. Rob Deso Tell,

[00:03:00] Dean Batali and Marty Noxson, original air date was January the 19th 1998.

[00:03:05] So listeners you may not recognize this voice or you may. This is Ann Wynn, my co-host from

[00:03:13] The Cast of the Rings. And if you're a Tolkien fan please check it out.

[00:03:18] Cara is not able to join us this week but we're very delighted to have Ann Wynn stepping in for her.

[00:03:23] Ann Wynn, welcome to still slaying. Tell us a little bit about your history with Buffy.

[00:03:29] Thank you. It's so amazing to be here and when I first heard that you guys were going to be covering

[00:03:36] Buffy, I was so excited. So I'm thrilled to be here. Back when Buffy aired, I did have a lot of

[00:03:42] family and friends who were really into it but I didn't watch it at the time. You know this was

[00:03:46] when TV was on TV and played once a week and you watched it all you didn't. I did come to it a

[00:03:52] few years later, my sister-in-law loaned me the box set of DVDs and Buffy had just finished the

[00:03:57] year before and Angel was still earring so it was sort of towards the end of that kind of Buffy

[00:04:01] on TV era. And it was actually when I was tour guiding for The Lord of the Rings tours, it was in 2004

[00:04:07] so I took the DVDs with me and I had this little portable DVD player so that when I was done with

[00:04:13] relicking around middle earth during the day I'd go back to my hotel room at night and I would immerse

[00:04:17] myself in sunny day. And it was a really great way to watch because you could not have to worry

[00:04:23] about any of the kind of less appealing, slightly dud episodes. You just watched them and then

[00:04:27] clipped straight to the next one so it was like the early 2000s version of streaming

[00:04:32] you could actually just binge it and keep going. And then when the box set of Angel came out I re-watched

[00:04:38] everything in order so it was actually there was a list that came out on internet that was

[00:04:45] not exactly air date order but they grouped them into appropriate kind of sequence I guess we

[00:04:52] had watched a few episodes of Buffy and they made me two of Angel and then a couple of Buffy like

[00:04:55] and it's story wise it really made sense and it was fantastic for those possibly episodes

[00:05:00] and so it's been at least 15 years since I watched through so it's been really amazing this time

[00:05:05] around following you and Cara and getting to relive that experience. And I guess from a really

[00:05:10] different perspective which we'll get into because I think it changes when you watch this

[00:05:15] and your 20s compared to in the 40s. Oh definitely. Yeah same for me I was in my 20s when it came out

[00:05:24] originally and when I originally watched it and I am now 51 so it's I find myself not even identifying

[00:05:36] with Joyce like I've moved right on to Giles. Yeah I get you. It's so funny because I

[00:05:43] I really he was he was the older guy he was the teacher figure the adult figure and because I was

[00:05:50] still quite young and wild and free at that time I think I identified a little bit more with the

[00:05:55] scuba gang and then he was the grown up and now I look at it and I'm like okay he's like 67 years younger

[00:06:00] than me and I can understand also. Yeah yeah yeah I get that this time. I did it then.

[00:06:09] So funny. So last episode I got all excited when we were talking about how Willow's fashion is

[00:06:20] horrible this season and we were talking about a particularly bad sweater that was in season 3

[00:06:27] and I was like oh I know what you mean it was in the wish but it was not in the wish it was in

[00:06:31] doppelgang land so anybody who was listening who knew I was wrong I had been I was wrong and now we

[00:06:38] all know that. It's like a catalog of Ed's sweaters. Yeah there's so much bad fashion on Willow it's

[00:06:44] hard to keep track of it. Oh I know. This episode no exception with the purple bucket hat. Exactly

[00:06:50] it does get better over time. Yeah she starts to dress much better in season 3 when she's like

[00:06:56] Oz's chick. Yeah you know she gets a little bit of a rocker edge. Yeah so on when do you want to

[00:07:05] give us the summary of the bad eggs episode I did not rewatch it for this. I can't watch that

[00:07:11] episode. Yeah I did watch it. It's um it was a little bit cringe but um I will I'll give you

[00:07:18] the update of if anyone who decided not to watch it and just wants to know if we missed anything.

[00:07:23] Previously on Buffy the Vampire Slayer. So where can we begin with this one? We we get an

[00:07:29] overarching theme of parenting in children. We get an introduction to a couple of troublesome

[00:07:33] cowboy vampires and not much else. Cordelia and Zanda are exploring the beginnings of their new

[00:07:38] secret relationship while Buffy and Angel go closer than ever despite reaching the topic that Angel

[00:07:43] can't have children. Again along with the other sex ed students at Sunnydale High I've tasked with

[00:07:48] pairing up and caring for an egg to learn all about parenthood. Buffy however gets to be a

[00:07:53] single mother to her egg. Paralleling, Joyce's journey and struggles parenting teenager Buffy.

[00:07:59] Of course this is Sunnydale so the eggs turn out to be creepy monster creatures with tentacles

[00:08:04] that latch onto student spaces and use them as hosts to serve their much larger tentacle mother

[00:08:08] monster creature in the school's basement. Buffy defeats the creature and frees the students

[00:08:13] from being hosts. The memories for you, Penny. It does. I just remember that um everyone was like

[00:08:20] wearing backpacks because the creatures like had to be attached to them all the time and they were

[00:08:25] hidden by the backpacks and it like attaches to their spine or something. It really creeps me out.

[00:08:32] Yeah, it is it is creepy and yeah it's um it's one of those sort of monster of the week

[00:08:37] style episodes. There were a couple of bits which I'll touch on later when we talk about some of

[00:08:42] the things that happened in this episode but there were a couple of little bits that was sort

[00:08:45] of relevant I guess and sort of you know lending themselves to the through arc of the characters

[00:08:50] and their stories so apart from that yeah you're not missing too much unless you like really

[00:08:55] 50 alien style face grabber type things. Yeah and there's something about it being eggs

[00:09:03] that also bothered me. I'm sometimes creeped out by just eating regular chicken eggs

[00:09:11] so um yeah it was just I can't I can't watch it um it's yeah it's too creepy. Uh there are a lot of

[00:09:20] things that are too far for me but when they are it's like no there's no crossing that line I will not

[00:09:26] go there like that is too far for me. There's an episode of supernatural that I can't watch

[00:09:32] that's about bloody Mary and it I just can't watch I can't watch that one ever.

[00:09:36] I mean it's just okay run has that thing.

[00:09:43] So this episode surprise is the first of a two-parter the second half it's called innocence and

[00:09:50] we'll cover that next time and they actually aired um two nights in a row instead of having to

[00:09:55] wait a week for the conclusion of surprise. We got to watch it the very next night. I was not

[00:10:01] watching live at this point though so I wasn't one of the people that got to have that

[00:10:07] 1998 version of of a fast binging of TV. Let's talk about what was going on in the late 90s.

[00:10:16] All right so the number one song in the USA was truly madly deeply by Savage Garden.

[00:10:21] The number one song in the UK was all around the world by Oasis.

[00:10:25] Number one at the box office in the US was Titanic I think that stayed there for a while

[00:10:31] and that was followed by as good as it gets and goodwill hunting. It was MLK Junior Day.

[00:10:37] It was Karl Perkins, Rockabilly style was best known for writing Blue Swede shoes.

[00:10:42] Oh he passed away that day.

[00:10:43] Oh he did okay yep um and Lara Croft was making news with Tomb Raider too from the New York Times.

[00:10:52] They said her fans say she's gritty, sexy, sassy, smart and well virtually real and that's exactly

[00:10:57] what her British creators were hoping for. It's really a strange phenomenon because people talk about

[00:11:02] here as if she's a real person since Cindy Church is a spokeswoman for Ados. A lot of people who play

[00:11:07] video games fantasise about here. Unsure of just how to portray the silicone icon,

[00:11:11] Ms. Church went on she's not overly sexual then paused okay she's physically sexual but she has

[00:11:17] a personality behind her because of those attributes Ados executives are being flooded with gifts

[00:11:22] and presents for the silicone princess. There are flowers Christmas gifts even vows from young boys

[00:11:27] and men people all over the world have seen her pictures in Trisha Gray at the Ados office

[00:11:31] and San Francisco. She's had dozens of marriage proposals and all these cheesy letters.

[00:11:36] Oh it was a different time wasn't it I don't think you'd have an article like that.

[00:11:40] I mean now that's just par for the course in every fandom that there are some people who

[00:11:47] seem to not be able to separate reality from fiction and then you know the idea of people wanting

[00:11:54] to marry a virtual woman used to be funny and now it's possibly happening. You actually can do it yeah.

[00:12:02] Very important if you lived in the US and I think probably this news made it all over the place.

[00:12:10] January 17th two days or yeah two days before this aired the Clinton Lewinsky scandal went public.

[00:12:19] Drudge report was the first to publish it although newsweek apparently were the first ones

[00:12:24] to get the story but Drudge beat them to reporting it. That was on January 17th at that point Monica

[00:12:31] Lewinsky had signed in affidavit to Congress that she had not had any kind of sexual relationship

[00:12:40] with President Clinton but they had some kind of secret informer and then the FBI got this woman

[00:12:48] Linda Trip who Monica Lewinsky thought was her friend to wear a wire and talk to Monica and get

[00:12:55] you know the scoop on what her relationship was with Bill Clinton and then there was the you know

[00:13:00] the infamous dress that she kept that had his semen on it and then on January 26th just

[00:13:08] you know few days after this was the very famous president Clinton television statement. I did not

[00:13:14] have sexual relations with that woman which of course we all know is a lie and it led to all kinds

[00:13:22] of investigations and it was in the news constantly and everybody was talking about it and every late

[00:13:31] night TV show host was joking about it and suddenly blow jobs and semen stains were like common

[00:13:41] everyday conversation topics it was a weird time to be in America it really was I am a big fan

[00:13:51] of Monica Lewinsky if you follow her now she's really active in trying to combat shaming and public

[00:14:01] shaming and the kind of trauma that she went through I mean she was like 22 or something. What a

[00:14:07] journey for her. Yeah and she was a you know a national the butt of a joke and she was you know

[00:14:16] harassed and hounded and abused and she had to go into hiding and the fact that she has come

[00:14:23] to the other side of that now and she's an activist and she's strong and she's funny she's

[00:14:29] really funny I respect a lot so yeah the idea that she was she was the scapegoat you know that

[00:14:36] that that come on there were two people in that room and he's in a position of power and yeah we

[00:14:41] could go on about this for ages we weren't but I can tell you that it was definitely news here in

[00:14:45] New Zealand so it did reach quite far and we probably didn't have the absolute saturation that

[00:14:52] you guys did but we definitely heard all about it and it was all over the news and everybody

[00:14:56] hit new her name and all that sort of stuff so yeah it was pretty big what were you doing in 1998

[00:15:00] Kenny um so in 1998 this was January 98 I was hearing back from law schools that I applied to

[00:15:11] amazing so I was I was getting ready to uh leave my what I was doing before which was I was working

[00:15:19] for an arts organization and nonprofit and um go to law school and I applied to I think seven

[00:15:29] law schools and got into a couple and went to NYU uh which I'm very happy with that decision

[00:15:39] but it was a a crazy time in my life I was I was very stressed and and I was planning and saving

[00:15:49] money and and it was a crazy time for me yeah and you were young to do that that's that's pretty

[00:15:56] cool I was definitely young wild and free I had just um I spent a little bit of time working in

[00:16:01] hospitality and tourism and I'd been overseas and lived in England for a year I'd come back to

[00:16:06] New Zealand I was working at a hotel um and living that kind of lifestyle and then pretty much the

[00:16:12] week after I guess this um aired I went to Sydney for the weekend I had the most amazing weekend

[00:16:17] it's funny that we mentioned Savage Garden because I went to to Sydney to see you two play in their

[00:16:23] pop-marts tour for the friend and we stayed um in the hotel that was the same chain as the one

[00:16:29] that I worked at in New Zealand so we got a good deal when it was like staff rates and they

[00:16:33] really looked after us we went to check in and they're like okay let's see if we can put you on

[00:16:38] the 10th floor oh no wait Elton John's whole crew is on that floor um let me see if we can put

[00:16:43] you on the on the 11th floor oh no wait we can't put you there because um Savage Gardens

[00:16:48] um taken that floor I will just put you on the top floor and you can have access to the club lounge

[00:16:52] and we're like okay I mean it was you two was there Savage Garden was there um Elton John was in

[00:16:59] town it was Pride Weekend as well in Sydney which was huge that's great that's great there was

[00:17:03] straight queens walking around the streets and we actually bumped into Savage Garden and then

[00:17:07] the lift we didn't know who they were but they had their air about them oh look look who we are

[00:17:11] but we were like yeah I wouldn't have known who they were either good times good times I love hearing

[00:17:19] all those flashbacks like it really does take you back to the the department school yeah it's funny

[00:17:24] I doing this rewatch it is reminding me of what it was like when when TV aired when TV shows aired

[00:17:32] when they aired and there weren't even like box sets of DVDs coming out yet if you missed it on

[00:17:41] the air you had to wait for like a holiday marathon to ever see those episodes again or try to catch

[00:17:48] them in reruns and and it wasn't until like the early 2000s that they started putting out like

[00:17:56] seasons of TV shows on DVD and it would sometimes take years for a season to come out yeah it's so

[00:18:03] different now it's like it's on streaming right away you can watch all of them you can pause rewind

[00:18:09] watch is that quick again and again you could slow it down even it's it's it it is reflected in

[00:18:16] the writing I think that a show like Buffy is much simpler now than it then than it would be now

[00:18:23] the stories have fewer elements each episode there's not as many characters because like can you

[00:18:29] imagine trying to watch Game of Thrones I was just gonna say Game of Thrones yeah in a world where like

[00:18:35] if you go to the bathroom you miss someone yeah it would be impossible to have the kind of quality TV

[00:18:43] we're all enjoying right now back when you couldn't rewatch or rewind or any of those things

[00:18:50] uh yeah it's nice it's nice it's in some ways I'm trying to figure out whether it's comforting viewing

[00:18:56] to me because it's old and familiar or whether part of it is that it's a it's a more simple structure

[00:19:02] and you know maybe in some ways a slower pace in some ways a quicker pace it's sort of like

[00:19:07] stuff happens and gets done and it's either episodic or you have a simple theme that's carried

[00:19:11] through rather than ice-ing different families or warring each other and try to keep up names

[00:19:16] and houses and yeah I get you yeah I never had to open a laptop in front of me while I was watching

[00:19:22] Buffy with a list of the characters and how they're related to each other sorry true which I

[00:19:27] definitely needed for Game of Thrones when I started watching it so let's get into the main

[00:19:35] episode surprise and you are our guest so you get to start thank you well I'm going to dive

[00:19:43] straight into the main theme of this and my first point is Buffy's loss of innocence so these two

[00:19:50] episodes are only going to talk about the first one now um but as it as a pair these two episodes

[00:19:55] mark a really huge development point for Buffy so it's not just her losing her virginity although

[00:20:00] that is part of it the main point that I take from it is Buffy finds out that people are not what

[00:20:05] they've seen and this began with the two recently episodes like to me in the dark age which sort

[00:20:12] of start that tuning point for Buffy so in light of me it was one of the first episodes and there are

[00:20:17] lots throughout where she learns that people aren't what they've seen so her friend Ford comes back

[00:20:21] to town and his motivation to become a vampire she realizes that he lied to get what he wanted and

[00:20:27] there's quite a look on her face when she realizes that her old friend had lied to her and she

[00:20:32] feels sorry for him but she did still feel betrayed and she takes a step closer to growing up when

[00:20:38] Giles tells her the pretend story at the end about how everyone lives happily ever after and she knows

[00:20:42] it's a lie um and it's just that another little step in her kind of losing some of that naivety

[00:20:48] innocence and then the next episode dark age that's the one where with the demon where uh we see

[00:20:57] a little bit of Giles's past um and Jenny calendar gets um gets uh uh taken over by the demon

[00:21:04] so we we find out about Giles's past and he only tells Buffy so much and I think that was a shock

[00:21:10] to her like hang on but aren't you just this guy who tells me everything in your the watcher

[00:21:13] and that's all I need to know about you and you're a one dimensional father figure um and then he

[00:21:18] realizes that he's got this past and he won't tell her and then she sort of realizes that it's

[00:21:24] a different kind of deception it's a deception by a mission she's not allowed to this and stuff

[00:21:28] that she's not allowed to know and she realizes how much Giles has kept from her and it's kind of

[00:21:33] like when you realize that your parent is a person an actual human being you know with their own

[00:21:38] past before you were born and you know she sees for Buffy seeing Giles and also for us seeing him

[00:21:45] so tormented I actually found it quite upsetting because you know he was so sort of mild manner

[00:21:49] than one dimensional before that and then suddenly you see him being really deeply affected by all

[00:21:55] this and the conversation at the end of that episode where Buffy and Giles discuss what happened

[00:22:01] is so moving like they're just standing in the corridor at school and they really talk about what

[00:22:07] you know what that means and how it means to grow up and to understand each other and check if

[00:22:12] you see something like I'd realize you're a person um and that that conversation wouldn't have

[00:22:17] happened in season one you know like it sort of it's it's marks the start of that closer relationship

[00:22:21] and the understanding between them it goes so much further in the in the rest of the seasons

[00:22:26] but that was kind of the setup I guess for this episode and I think we've had little snippets

[00:22:30] throughout the last you know five or six episodes that really show the build up to this episode

[00:22:35] I think this is quite a peak kind of episode in the season and I found it interesting especially on

[00:22:39] second watch to notice that the episode opens and closes with Buffy and Bede so at first when she

[00:22:47] first see her in the very start of the episode she's innocent she's sleeping in her own bed and

[00:22:52] who childhood bedroom she's innocent and PJs and she has that quite bizarre dream which is you know

[00:22:58] a whole other thing but this is the opening we just see her like that and then you know

[00:23:04] that sort of innocence continues on we see that conversation that she has with Willow at school

[00:23:08] where they're talking about her finally deciding to have sex with Angel and it's so like you know

[00:23:13] he's a 200 year old vampire but she's the the conversation is so typical of teenagers everywhere

[00:23:18] that just must happen every day in high schools and bedrooms everywhere really sweet really naive

[00:23:23] oh I really love him I think it's time I think we're gonna do it you know like it was so it was so

[00:23:28] typical I'm so definitely been the Willow in that conversation in that school where my friend was

[00:23:34] like oh and I was like oh it's exciting you're gonna have sex for the first time and really like

[00:23:40] what was happening was not cool like right yeah and like adult me looking back is like oh that

[00:23:47] was not a good situation but I was a kid and I thought like getting to have sex was cool

[00:23:54] yeah and you want to be the supportive friend but yeah you might not have the insight into

[00:23:57] really what it all means um and you know you see that from Willow she's just like wow oh wow

[00:24:03] that's all kind of all she can say like it's all you know really special and um you know it's

[00:24:10] it was quite amazing we see that that scene between the two of them and then in the last scene of

[00:24:15] the film so we see her and bed again at the very end um she's taken that next step in a relationship

[00:24:20] they go back to angels you know after this fight they're all wet and traumatized and she's

[00:24:24] shivering and this is that classic line you just get under the covers just to warm up yeah right

[00:24:30] and then I was like yeah let's not say and then of course they kiss and dot dot dot I've got the

[00:24:38] dot dot dot because we've just finished watching both mum and the MUDs and I'm actually talking about

[00:24:43] dot dot dot to me going off having sex so she she finally gets together with angel and you know

[00:24:50] we're gonna see the repercussions from that obviously in the next episode but I really enjoyed this

[00:24:55] kind of arc and I think watching it again you know with the distance of time to kind of see it

[00:24:59] from a perspective of having more experience and my own life um was quite interesting to see you know

[00:25:05] and it's yeah it's that I think it's written really well I think and I think they did the build-up

[00:25:12] with with Buffy and Angel quite well in terms of um that it was it wasn't just a ha ha we're

[00:25:18] just girlfriend boyfriend and we kissed sometimes then boom it was they really did that's tension

[00:25:23] well over a number of episodes of what it meant to to each other so that was that was pretty cool but

[00:25:29] yeah it was um a definite turning point for Buffy for sure uh for me when I when I actually first

[00:25:39] started watching Buffy I think I started watching right after these two episodes and I hadn't

[00:25:46] seen anything up till then and I just was like oh so this angel guy is evil but he used to be her boyfriend

[00:25:53] okay and I just like went from there and then when I went back and and watched it um later in life

[00:26:01] I realized how lucky I was that I came in at that point because it's really when the show went

[00:26:09] from like a good interesting show to like oh it's like that it's like gonna get deep and it's

[00:26:16] gonna really talk about pain and it's gonna you know take risks which again was also not a thing

[00:26:26] that was happening in the 90s right and TV shows there was like happy ending at the end of every

[00:26:31] episode and like simple story and all the main characters don't even get hurt ever and uh

[00:26:39] you know this this devastating thing that's about to happen to Buffy was shocking and it

[00:26:47] it's uh I feel like it's the the risk that proved that the show was worthwhile but also that like

[00:26:56] got other shows to start taking bigger risks like I don't think there would have been an alias

[00:27:01] or a last without Buffy first to be shocking yeah definitely change things and the concept I think

[00:27:11] probably grew for the creators where they were like we want to we want to show um normal teenage

[00:27:19] experiences that every could have has through high school but we're gonna show it through the lens

[00:27:24] of supernatural creepy stuff that goes on and I think that helped to make it more extreme but also

[00:27:32] it just meant that they had that license to kind of explore those more deeply in themselves

[00:27:36] which which you know made it into a really great show and then you know later on with angel you

[00:27:42] kind of get that takes another step sort of into more more interacting with the real world not

[00:27:47] just with your kind of high school high school world yeah I uh well since we were already talking about

[00:27:55] Buffy um and angel my first point was just about couples in general uh there's a lot of couples

[00:28:05] in this episode that we get to have a glimpse of their relationship and they're all in different

[00:28:09] places so Buffy and Angel are sort of in the like the honeymoon phase right they are

[00:28:16] they are crazy about each other can't get enough of each other they're like it's hard to say

[00:28:21] goodbye at night yes it is like they're in that place Osan Willow are not even dating yet right

[00:28:30] they're at the pre-place where even saying the word date Willow thinks is like a big deal right

[00:28:35] she's like I said date um and it's so cute and so innocent and then there's Zander and Cordelia

[00:28:41] who are like making out in broom closets and it's a secret from everyone that's another kind of

[00:28:48] teenage thing that happens Jiles and Jenny the adult version and then Spike and Drusilla who are

[00:28:55] such a tight couple and Drusilla we get to see a lot of good examples of Drusilla and how she's crazy

[00:29:03] right there was like you know her joy at the idea of destruction and all these other things and

[00:29:08] and uh when she sort of goes crazy about the flowers and like starts to freak out and Spike is like

[00:29:15] so we'll change the flowers then honey he's like her handler right and she needs him because

[00:29:21] I think if I think crazy Drusilla probably gets herself killed pretty easily if she doesn't have

[00:29:28] I can pay attention to the real world spike like guiding her through life um even though she's his

[00:29:35] sire uh he very much takes care of her and is the leader of that little pair um

[00:29:42] uh there's a point where angel says something about Drusilla he's like she's crazy enough to do it

[00:29:48] uh they use the word crazy a lot throughout all of this show um Buffy and Angel uh it's not really

[00:29:57] great parlance now like we're supposed to not use that word as much to describe people but

[00:30:04] this is a 90s show we're gonna have to use the 90s words um like Gypsy Gypsy is offensive but

[00:30:11] it's all over the show how can we avoid saying it so just acknowledge that it's offensive

[00:30:17] um we talked about this uh I think it was last time uh about the age difference between Buffy and Willow

[00:30:27] and how easy it was for me when I watched the show the first time to be like whatever he's a

[00:30:35] he's a vampire but she's the slayer normal rules don't apply to them and Buffy even jokes about it

[00:30:42] to Willow when she says you think he's too old because he's a senior my boyfriend had a bison teniel

[00:30:48] but when I think about it the fact that Angel is more than 200 years old

[00:30:53] and Buffy is 17 and then I look at the way they interact and she's so in love with him

[00:31:02] and he is letting himself get carried away like he's also a teenager but he's not a teenager

[00:31:09] uh you know if he was an 18 year old having that conversation with Buffy where they're like

[00:31:15] well you know I like seeing you at nighttime I like seeing you at morning time at bedtime whatever

[00:31:21] it would be cute and romantic and it would be you know a movie that would star like Shailene Woodley

[00:31:27] we'd all love it but I cannot stop being creeped out by Angel being 200 years older than Buffy now

[00:31:35] it really it really creeps me out um when she goes to check on him after her prophecy dream or

[00:31:43] she doesn't know if it's a prophecy or not yet but her dream angel is like it's fine I'm fine let's make out

[00:31:50] uh same way he was when she was like my mom's dating this guy Ted and

[00:31:56] and he's a jerk and I don't like him and he's like kiss me and

[00:32:01] I used to love Buffy and Angel together and now I don't I'm really like can't wait till she uh

[00:32:08] gets rid of that guy um yeah and I I felt the same thing and that's hilarious penny because

[00:32:15] that was exactly my next point was the five couples it's almost like you read my notes um but I

[00:32:22] I feel the same about Buffy and Angel in the same way you know we talked about that tension of

[00:32:27] those over those episodes things getting hotter between them and they finally have sex but

[00:32:31] again Buffy's expressing these concerns to him and he just kisses her

[00:32:35] and sort of shuts her up and then she goes oh I don't even know what I was talking about

[00:32:39] and you know that it's sort of like yes when I first watched it sort of seem romantic

[00:32:44] and now look and I go hang on he's not he's not honoring your you know you're expressing your emotions

[00:32:50] and they I they do definitely seem to be in love with each other you know they're obviously

[00:32:55] she is and I think that he is too it's he's resisting it and so on but

[00:32:59] also I guess one of the things that helped me think it was romantic back at the time is

[00:33:03] that David Boyar and it's just one of the most beautiful human beings on earth

[00:33:08] he really is extremely handsome um it's just gorgeous um but definitely noticed it much more

[00:33:14] now this time that he kissed her instead of listening and you know it's like you say it's not for

[00:33:18] the first time um but it's not you know as much as they're in love with each other it's

[00:33:23] it's not an equal relationship and and nor can it ever be a healthy long term relationship

[00:33:28] and they sort of sprinkle clues about that like remember in bad eggs when they talk about vampires

[00:33:32] not being out of father children and she's kind of like it's fine yeah but her kind of that's

[00:33:38] fine is more her fatalistic kind of I'm probably not gonna live that long anyway because I'm the slayer

[00:33:42] um so it was pretty dark and I do think about the age difference you know it's if you think

[00:33:49] about it for too long it is really creepy that he's 200 and he's had all this experience before

[00:33:54] enough to becoming a vampire you know like he was this he was this I don't know how much flashback

[00:33:59] we've seen so far not much I think that'll probably be coming later in other episodes but

[00:34:04] you know he'd had some experience in life before he became a vampire and then lots since then

[00:34:09] you know really evil dark stuff and I mean I think I think the acting was really good

[00:34:16] and you definitely feel your heartstrings being tugged you know when they're saying goodbye you

[00:34:19] can feel that yearning between them um and it's just it's another example of that

[00:34:24] the aim of the show that I was talking about before to explore the normal teenager experiences

[00:34:29] enhanced by this supernatural situation so instead of your boyfriend just going off to college

[00:34:34] he's taking a demon arm on a container ship they're excited to work

[00:34:38] but you know the feelings are the same I mean they're recognizable and really relatable I think

[00:34:42] people but yeah definitely a difference a different type of um of viewpoint I think when you watch

[00:34:50] it from a you know from a little bit later in life and you kind of know what you want out of

[00:34:55] life not just a tall dark handsome stranger kissing you to shut you up yeah Sarah Michelle Geller has

[00:35:00] this amazing expression she does when Buffy sees Angel she she softens her whole countenance

[00:35:10] and and she gets these these like puppy dog eyes and it makes her look so young and so vulnerable

[00:35:21] and and I went back and watched a couple of like clips from earlier episodes and I was like yeah

[00:35:26] that she does it regularly and in this episode is like the king of that of that expression

[00:35:32] that she makes when he's like I want to kiss you or whatever when she's in his weird basement apartment

[00:35:38] um she makes that softened face and all I could think was like don't let down your guard

[00:35:45] like it's just it's so scary knowing we know what's gonna happen uh there was a cutscene that I think

[00:35:54] is really interesting I found the dialogue from this cutscene and it's between Jenny and

[00:36:00] Jenny calendar and Giles and she says they're talking about um Buffy's dream and Jenny says I guess

[00:36:09] it makes sense I mean all of Buffy's senses are heightened why should her intuition be different

[00:36:15] and Giles says precisely it's not unheard of for the slayer to start having prophetic dreams and visions

[00:36:20] as she approaches adulthood and Jenny says adulthood Buffy's 17 tomorrow Giles don't rush her

[00:36:27] Giles says I'm not the one rushing her while I love to say it the fact is the slayer rarely lives

[00:36:34] into her mid-twenties it follows that she'd exhibit signs of maturity early on her whole life cycle

[00:36:40] is accelerated and Jenny says still you should be careful about treating her like a grownup

[00:36:45] like this thing with angel have you even talked to her about it Giles I I suppose I try not to pry

[00:36:53] Jenny maybe you should a little the way she talks it's clear she has intense feelings for him

[00:36:59] Giles well yes they're friends Jenny there are more than friends and you know it Giles I'm not her father

[00:37:05] Jenny Jenny she looks up to you she'll never actually say that but she does and I just think at her

[00:37:12] age it's easy to get in over your head she could make some bad choices here trust me on this one

[00:37:17] and then Giles I'll keep an eye on it right now I'm worried enough trying to think of the right

[00:37:22] birthday present uh interesting I wonder what what the choice was there to take that out I mean

[00:37:31] I'm sure that it was partially just time and they had to cut something but I also wonder if this

[00:37:37] scene was before or after Jenny's conversation with her uncle where he says you know take Buffy

[00:37:44] away from angel although she never tells her uncle that Buffy is the slayer and and how that

[00:37:51] might impact any of their actions like she just says a girl and maybe she's trying to protect Buffy

[00:37:57] by keeping her anonymous but taking a girl away from angel and taking the slayer away from her

[00:38:04] boyfriend are two completely different things in my head um and would require different actions but

[00:38:11] I don't know if that conversation with Giles was Jenny truly being concerned for Buffy or trying to

[00:38:16] get Giles to drive a wedge between Buffy and Angel yeah well that that leads a really nice

[00:38:22] thing to my next point which is about Jenny calendar so it's interesting because she

[00:38:27] we're having watched this the first time I just thought oh she's really cool you know she's

[00:38:34] she's an ally for the scuba gang and she's there's love interest for Giles and she seems really

[00:38:37] caring and supportive but also cool you know she's like the cool adult and then the see-per-side we

[00:38:42] learn that she's been sent there by her people to make sure that Angel's still suffering and

[00:38:50] but in doing so I think she has in sconce herself in this group and she's realized the angel is good

[00:38:56] and she kind of almost doesn't want to fulfill her mission of even just watching but now her uncle comes

[00:39:01] along and he tells her that she actually has to do more than just watch um she has to take Buffy

[00:39:07] away from Angel because he's not allowed to be happy and it's I wonder whether if that conversation

[00:39:14] that they cut if it had been before or after that conversation with her uncle if it would have

[00:39:18] changed our view of who or maybe her motivations because if you just look at that on the surface

[00:39:24] it's really caring it's really intuitive and insightful is that you know Buffy's character and

[00:39:29] her well-being and making sure that she's okay and um you know she's bringing this different

[00:39:34] perspective that Giles might not have thought of just about her and her development and her

[00:39:38] her safety I guess but if you look at it from the lens of they need to kind of stop this because

[00:39:47] she's actually trying to stop it because of what her family's saying that there is well like it's

[00:39:51] that's well a well-wrestled scene because it can be either yeah it could it could be beforehand

[00:39:55] and she's just hearing it could be after and she's hearing but also she's just trying to break them

[00:40:00] up because she's that's her job now um and it's it's quite creepy when you know when she offers to drive

[00:40:07] Buffy to meet Giles and she has this real dark look and you think that she's taking

[00:40:13] somewhere dangerous and because it's been 15 years since I watched I was like oh something's up with

[00:40:17] Jenny Kounder I can't remember exactly what but this isn't right and she's being sneaky and

[00:40:22] naughty and oh no she's gonna take Buffy away and then she takes her to the bronze and it's to go

[00:40:26] to the party you're like oh it was quite a cool little bit and sweat so quite liked it but yeah it

[00:40:30] does still lend to Jenny being um more than she first appeared you know and has a salteria motive but

[00:40:38] um I do believe now I haven't watched it and we'll see what happens in the next few episodes but

[00:40:43] I do believe that you know as much as she was sent there under false pretenses and they didn't

[00:40:47] know who she was but I think she has come around to actually being kind of on their side and

[00:40:53] and you know Angel saved her life when with when you know she was possessed by the demon um so yeah

[00:41:01] she's in a tricky place and uh it's really interesting to see what you know what the different

[00:41:09] I guess factors involved are with her not kind of treachery but her her choices all along the way

[00:41:18] it's quite fascinating and also um I wanted to point out that I had that exact outfit that she

[00:41:22] was wearing when she met her uncle with a chocolate round top and the floral dress and the chunky

[00:41:27] black shoes so 90s oh my god did you also wear it with like a ribbon choker? Oh yeah you've got to

[00:41:33] have the choker that's so the 90s oh yeah with the two little bits hanging down oh yeah

[00:41:40] these all the hair oh the 90s the dark lipsticks and the plaids there was a lot of plaid

[00:41:48] I still like that look but I'm like and I think I might be too old for that I'll just

[00:41:52] I'll stick with my it's it's all coming back about something goes into circles isn't it? Yeah it does

[00:41:59] um uncle enios jennies uncle is played by a character actor I got his name here Vincent

[00:42:09] I have a lot of notes to shop with the real weight that's too far where is it? I have a whole section about

[00:42:19] the uncle um because he's really interesting guy um

[00:42:23] um I remember him from um ghost yes he was the subway ghost and ghost yeah yeah so he was played

[00:42:30] by Vincent Chiavelli uh who was selected by Vanity Fair magazine in 1997 as one of the best

[00:42:37] character actors in America he's been in over 160 film and TV shows and my favorite is ghost

[00:42:44] as the subway ghost he was also in one clue over the kook who's nest but he is one of those actors that

[00:42:50] you know most people will call that guy because you've just like seen him in different places um he also

[00:42:57] is a um a food journalist and he won a James Beard Award for Food Journalism not uh well like 2007

[00:43:06] or something so well-rounded interesting person um he uh he outlines for Jenny that she is first of all

[00:43:16] she's still yana of the calderash people like he's so um he's so uh condescending to her when

[00:43:24] he's like you think you're Jenny Calender now uh it's it's so interesting because I guess he's

[00:43:32] sort of accusing her of trying to pass as not being a gypsy and then she's like you know I don't

[00:43:38] forget I didn't forget I know I know and uh he says um are you just gonna forget that he destroyed

[00:43:46] the favorite daughter of our people and killed every man woman and child that touched her life

[00:43:53] um I have always wondered and I have never found confirmation is the favorite daughter of their

[00:43:59] people is it true cilla are they talking like is cicella a member of the calderash people

[00:44:06] uncle i've never heard anything like that but there's the story is very similar and I wonder whether

[00:44:11] it's just that that's what he did that was his mo oh so he he did that to drew cilla that's

[00:44:17] what he liked to do he would pick a young innocent weak um human um taught you her by restoring

[00:44:23] her family and and you know driving her insane or finally filling her so I don't know that it's

[00:44:29] the same person and I don't when you when you see your cilla in flashback she seems quite um

[00:44:38] um a high class kind of aristocratic british maybe doesn't quite so well with that

[00:44:45] with that but I think it's just another example of how people who was um I don't think it's

[00:44:51] needed that makes me feel very comfortable with that in my mind so thank you very much yeah

[00:44:56] yeah and then she tries to to argue with the uncle and say you know he's making amends and

[00:45:03] the the uncle's like we don't care about amends vengeance demands that his suffering is eternal as

[00:45:09] ours is oh and uh I I like sort of thinking about how vengeance and justice are not the same thing

[00:45:21] and some people really do get those two things confused these calderash people only cared about

[00:45:27] angel suffering they didn't care about stopping him from killing anyone else that was never the

[00:45:32] goal they just wanted to make him suffer so it's a it's a fun I mean giving him a soul did have

[00:45:40] did have the good side of fate if i'm not going around killing any other people yeah exactly yeah

[00:45:47] one other thing about jennie um buffy sees her walk through her second prophecy dream

[00:45:54] it's just a flash like jennie just walks by but it's enough to to make buffy say like you know take

[00:46:00] note and be like all right there's something about there's something about jennie um just because

[00:46:07] she's in the dream yeah and i'll say no more because otherwise i'm gonna get spoilery yeah it's

[00:46:14] really easy to get spoilery and yeah we we try but i don't think we're ever going to be a hundred

[00:46:19] percent i am really into knowing if any of the listeners are watching for the first time please

[00:46:25] write an even if it's just a really quick facebook message or anything just i'd love to know

[00:46:29] if there's anybody out there who's always wanted to watch buffy is now got the motivation to do it by

[00:46:34] listening along and is watching for the first time i'm really super keen to please let us know yeah i

[00:46:40] know at least one of the zid heads it is trying to keep up with us but because we skipped all of

[00:46:46] of season one and she didn't believe me that she could skip season one she's behind

[00:46:50] at least it was the shortest season so yeah not as much to get to you might get there exactly um so

[00:46:59] my next point is about the clatter ring that angel gives to buffy and after this episode when

[00:47:07] you know it he gives it to buffy as a birthday present um the clatter ring became a very popular

[00:47:13] symbol among buffy fans it was also really popular at least in the us at that point like

[00:47:20] things that were Celtic and Celtic symbols were really really big in the late 90s uh that was

[00:47:28] the beginning of when i started seeing a lot of like not type jewelry and things like that that

[00:47:34] that have Celtic patterns in them coming out all over the states um i have Celtic uh ancestry so

[00:47:42] i've always been sort of like happy that it was popular um angel says to buffy my people before

[00:47:50] i was changed the exchange this is a sign of devotion the hands represent friendship the crown

[00:47:56] represents loyalty and the heart well you know where it with the heart pointing towards you it

[00:48:01] means you belong to someone like somebody like this and he shows her his ring um this is the first

[00:48:07] indication we get that angel is irish uh that will later be confirmed in future episodes uh but

[00:48:14] that was the first time that there was any inkling of it um the design and customs associated with

[00:48:20] the clatter ring originated in clatter county um clatter the town of clatter in county Galway

[00:48:27] in Ireland that's where its modern form was first produced in the 17th century and Galway has been

[00:48:34] producing clatter rings continuously since at least 1700 there are many legends about the origins

[00:48:41] of the ring um it said that it was invented by somebody named Richard Joyce who was a silver

[00:48:48] smith in Galway but then there was also a goldsmith um who got credit named uh Thomas Mead

[00:48:59] um and uh the way that you wear a clatter ring is the intention is to show your relationship status

[00:49:09] so on the right hand with the point of the heart facing towards the fingertips the wearer is

[00:49:15] single and looking for love on the right hand with the point facing toward the wrist the wearer

[00:49:21] is in a relationship someone has captured their heart if you wear it on the left ring finger

[00:49:27] with the point of the heart toward the fingers the wearer is engaged and on the left with the

[00:49:32] point facing towards the wrist the wearer is married apparently it's very traditional for mothers

[00:49:39] to give these two daughters or grandmothers to pass them to granddaughters it's uh a tradition in

[00:49:46] in Ireland well it's a lovely tradition and um i love the explanation thank you um i was the

[00:49:55] wearer of the the clatter ring around that time as well actually i think it became quite an

[00:50:00] international thing people would would wear them and the same thing you know there was

[00:50:04] was in the sort of 80s and 90s i think that just Irish culture you know came out to the rest

[00:50:09] of the world to be a little bit popular like you say with some of the designs the jewelry

[00:50:14] um the Celtic knots and things like that and you had bands like you too and the hot ass flowers

[00:50:19] and clanted and some of those bands that kind of bought some of them bought a little bit more

[00:50:23] the traditional aspects of Irish music and culture out to the rest of the world and um yeah the the

[00:50:29] moment when you see the angel giving that ring to her again you get that look on buffy space

[00:50:35] of just usher and sheer devotion you know and he's giving her this it's a pretty big moment

[00:50:40] and then he he goes to say i i and then of course i get attacked by the by the vampires but yeah

[00:50:46] it was pretty it was definitely the next level of their relationship you know and i don't know whether

[00:50:53] there was something in the writing where they were like okay we're going to have a 17-year-old

[00:50:59] in high school have sex with a guy do we need to have something that really

[00:51:04] submits their relationship to make sure that she knows that it's legit and that it's real and he

[00:51:09] really loves her and he's got this sign of commitment um that might have been intentional in terms of

[00:51:15] the time and the fact yeah okay it's all right that f6 so because she gave her a ring

[00:51:19] he gave her a ring you know that kind of play the um the marriage scene in Romeo and Juliet right they

[00:51:26] secretly get married you know just the two of them with the friar and that sort of sanctifies

[00:51:34] the fact that even though they're two 15-year-olds they have sex in in the play and then there's a similar

[00:51:41] sort of not real but symbolic wedding scene in westside story which is an adaptation of Romeo and

[00:51:48] Juliet i hadn't ever connected that and i'm really glad you said it because it enriches that scene

[00:51:55] for me that it is a little bit like a wedding or a commitment ceremony for the two of them yeah

[00:52:00] they're committing to each other they don't know when they're going to see each other next but

[00:52:03] they they need to have that to hold on to each other which yeah was really sweet until I got

[00:52:07] jumped by the vans and thrown in the water yeah yeah um so for for my next point i'm just going to

[00:52:17] circle back because one of my points was about the five different relationships and you

[00:52:21] you're definitely um touched on that I just had a one or two other little bits to say on that um

[00:52:27] I really love Willow and Oz they're so cute you know they're so sweet and sincere they've got this

[00:52:33] that's adorable banter hey hey do you guys uh i have a gig tonight oh no practice see our

[00:52:50] bands kind of moving towards this new sound where we suck so practice I think you guys sound good

[00:52:56] thanks i bet you have a lot of groupies it happens that i'm living groupie free nowadays

[00:53:05] and clean oh

[00:53:10] i'm gonna ask you to go out with me tomorrow night and i'm kind of nervous about it actually

[00:53:15] it's interesting oh well if it helps it off i'm gonna say yes yeah it helps it creates a comfort zone

[00:53:23] oh do you want to go out with me tomorrow night oh i can't

[00:53:30] what's that like the drone predictable oh hey it's just it's my fives birthday and we're throwing more

[00:53:35] surprise party it's okay but you could come if you want it why don't you crash no it's fine

[00:53:43] well you could be my date

[00:53:49] alright i'm in

[00:53:57] they said date um and it's it's proper flirting but they're so open with each other about that

[00:54:03] but even to the extent when Oz says i'm gonna ask you out and it's kind of

[00:54:08] i'm nervous about it just so you know and she's like okay well i've been just so you know

[00:54:12] i'm gonna say yes and then it's so funny when she goes oh no i can't

[00:54:16] it's so cute and then his reaction oh well i like this unpredictable yeah

[00:54:22] he's so dry about everything it's really cute and i just think there their relationship it's

[00:54:28] so wholesome like at this point you know the beginning of their relationship it's so cute it's so

[00:54:32] wholesome and i really like it because it contrasts with all the other relationships you know

[00:54:37] so all of the other relationships are quite weird in their own way you know um and i think it makes

[00:54:44] the other ones it sort of throws into relief how cute they are

[00:54:48] and how odd the other ones are you know talked about zander and cordelia

[00:54:53] it's mostly comic relief at a stage you know it's funny she's in denial there's a shame to

[00:54:58] him he wants to be out in the open and things will develop later but it's it's quite interesting

[00:55:03] at this point just funny um dials and genny it's the only grown up human relationship you know

[00:55:09] they've already been through a lot um you know like that time she became a demon and tried to kill him

[00:55:15] that's gonna bond you um and and then there's also now that kind of

[00:55:21] tension to it in our eyes where we know that she's there under ulterior motive so

[00:55:25] how much of what she's doing is real is her feelings for dials real and and all that kind of stuff

[00:55:30] um and but overall i think it serves as quite a balance to the teen relationships because they are

[00:55:35] they are grownups again slightly um slightly different uh a little bit of an age gap there

[00:55:43] i don't know how they're supposed to be but the actors at the time she was 28 and he was 44

[00:55:48] it's a 16 year gap which is acceptable but it's still quite yeah it's it's very normal in the 90s

[00:55:55] probably less so now yeah um just in terms of being portrayed and being as being normal um

[00:56:00] and then of course spike and dress filler uh i love how the tables have turned with them so they've

[00:56:06] got this incredible relationship but it used to be the other way that she was weak and he would

[00:56:10] have to protect her and and you know he was really physically strong now it's turned that he's

[00:56:15] physically weak she's physically really strong but like you said he still has to be there to be

[00:56:20] her minder pretty much he has to kind of manage her psychologically and manage her behavior

[00:56:25] and and and what she does um because she's just so off the charts insane you know um literally

[00:56:31] insane it's driven that way you know so they really do love each other as much as they can without

[00:56:38] having a soul um they do anything for each other yeah and that's quite cool to watch as much as

[00:56:44] their evil and the stashed whirling and so on but the fact that they are so into each other

[00:56:49] and i love when the judge beats them and says that they stink of humanity and they share a

[00:56:53] fiction and jealousy i think that's quite cool and um without any spoilers sort of you know giving

[00:56:59] that little snippet at the beginning of of what's possible for spite um in terms of actually having

[00:57:04] you know affection yeah i think that's really cool he does really love drosilla it's yeah it's one of the

[00:57:11] things that makes spikes so lovable as a character because if he was just the bravado and the

[00:57:22] evil and the having minions and the leather jacket it would be shallow and and it would get old fast

[00:57:31] but this not appealing with drosilla it gives him so much depth because i can't help but always

[00:57:37] think about like my god every time they go to a new city he has to be like don't get yourself caught

[00:57:43] and it's the 20th century now and like um yeah just and she likes to have parties apparently so he's

[00:57:53] constantly trying to keep her from like overdoing it yeah it's interesting he must be a very patient

[00:58:02] person in some ways yeah he's tolerant he's very tolerant to that yeah yeah i love what they did

[00:58:08] with her look so um the change from being innocent and weak she's wearing white and it's a very

[00:58:16] childish kind of empire line dress and then she she gets her power back and she's suddenly in these

[00:58:23] sexy red dresses and corsets and um the way she's moving is different and i love that but they

[00:58:30] did with it um and when yeah she's i mean she's just wild to watch when the judge kills that accountant

[00:58:36] vamp and she's so i just go crazy with delight she can't stand it it's amazing do it again do it again

[00:58:43] yeah she's so happy. Incredible to work yeah and spikes look as well you know um i just love his whole

[00:58:50] his whole look his whole demeanor the way he moves um the the scar on his eyebrow is actually um it's

[00:58:57] actually real scar that the actor has probably we got mugged one time and they worked it in and

[00:59:02] actually put it in as being from a slayer who who um caught the one he'd so it's fantastic it's

[00:59:09] a very sexy scar i think um he has such a great like uh chiseled face you know the bone structure is

[00:59:18] so evident and that the scar just like it's that little imperfection that brings the rest of it into

[00:59:25] relief yeah another extremely handsome man on the show exactly yep really we have no shortage of

[00:59:35] hand simminess um i want to talk about uh the judge just a little bit um he i always do this game

[00:59:47] of trying to count how many apocalypse his buffie has averted and when i get to the judge i've always

[00:59:52] liked does that count as an apocalypse that she averted or not but um angel described it as

[01:00:01] armageddon so i'm an accountant as an apocalypse so i think at this point in the series there are

[01:00:07] two apocalypsees that she well this is the second one that she'll have to avert um there will be many

[01:00:14] in the course of the entire season uh series um uh when buffie and angel find the box and they have

[01:00:21] that hilarious theme where instead of a birthday present she gets the arm choking her at her birthday

[01:00:27] party angel recognizes it and and says you know she wouldn't and then jr. silas crazy enough to do it

[01:00:37] uh it's the i think it's the judge and and uh jiles recognizes that and is like this is he

[01:00:43] and um in angel describes that he was a a demon brought forth to rid the world of the scourge

[01:00:50] of humanity and later jiles describes the judge at first of all that it took a whole army to

[01:00:57] dismember him no weapon forged can kill him those are sort of repeated phrases but he says a true

[01:01:05] creature of evil oh the judge when they the judge is able to burn the humanity out of people um

[01:01:11] and jiles says a true creature of evil can survive the process no human ever has and zander says what's

[01:01:19] the problem we send courty to fight this guy and we go for pizza uh one of the many times when

[01:01:26] zander gets the comic relief um in the show and for once it wasn't equipped about sexualizing buffie

[01:01:34] so i am pretty happy about that it's true but it's still putting someone down yeah putting a girl down

[01:01:41] yeah i love when they killed when he senses the humanity in the the nerdy accountant vampire and he

[01:01:49] says something like he he reeks of humanity he reads books yeah uh reeks bugs box

[01:01:59] i also think it's interesting this spike was like sunny day all is cursed for us we should leave

[01:02:05] and dracilla doesn't want to it's like um maybe you should listen to him

[01:02:13] yeah um yeah the judges is an interesting one and and i actually remember feeling quite terrified

[01:02:21] because the fact that you can't kill him you know that he's unkillable with it that

[01:02:26] that no human can can do it is quite horrifying um and yeah now we have to see what happens next

[01:02:34] my guess we won't talk about now maybe in a future episode but um yeah i love i love that you get these

[01:02:39] series of devastating villains throughout and you know buffie prevails because she's buffie

[01:02:45] which is cool she's buffie i wanted to talk a little bit about the look of the show oh yeah um

[01:02:53] and you know really noticing it differently watching it 15 20 years later uh and we talked a little

[01:03:01] bit about um genie calendars look um buffies flocked velvet shirt in this in the library scene oh i

[01:03:08] loved it so much it's like it's so an idea someone needs to bring flocked velvet back it's the best

[01:03:13] i've been seeing it lately there you go i'd always come surround um the 90s makeup you know that

[01:03:20] real matte kind of skin and then the dark kind of lipstick and uh just uh love it takes me back it's

[01:03:28] incomprupible and i think it's always really amazing to see how makeup um fashions change over time

[01:03:34] where just you think that's normal when you see it and then you you see it later it looks really dated

[01:03:39] i love how buffies outfits change according to her mood or her mental state so when she's peppy and

[01:03:46] happy and everything's good with the world she wears really cute clothes she wears kind of short

[01:03:50] skirts and cute little tops and you know maybe some sparkly hair clips in her hair and all that kind

[01:03:54] of thing and then when she's feeling low or defeated she wears dungarees or grungy kind of flat shirts and

[01:04:01] things like that and i just really noticed it over the last couple of episodes and i'm going to enjoy

[01:04:06] keeping my eye on that um fashion expression as we move through the rest of the the series because

[01:04:13] the fashion does change in general over the time but also just how it indicates you know what

[01:04:18] someone's feeling on and and that's like real life isn't it you're feeling sometimes you it works the

[01:04:23] other way you want to feel happy so you put on bright color or wear something cute to sassy or you're

[01:04:28] just feeling scungy and you just want to swab around the house you put on your dungarees and grungy

[01:04:32] plan so i like how that reflects it and it kind of helps the audience to kind of understand what

[01:04:37] state she's in yeah uh caracol that uh the overalls of sadness though overalls as sadness yeah

[01:04:44] that's cool that's so true um the other thing i noticed as well i don't know if i noticed it so much

[01:04:50] the first time around um like uh vampires always bumpy faced and then they go human on purpose to

[01:04:58] look normal or do they know they look normal all the time and they go bumpy when they're in rage

[01:05:03] because in this show the villains are always bumpy so even when they're just sitting around

[01:05:08] chatting you know like like um accountant guy he's just doing the books or whatever

[01:05:12] yeah he's he's bumpy so it's like i'm not quite sure how that works whether it's just an indicator

[01:05:17] or again a visual indicator of okay this is a bad guy because he's always you know

[01:05:21] bent faced i don't think it's uh primarily driven by budget that only the characters that are

[01:05:29] important and a vampire go back and forth because that's an expensive effect to go from regular

[01:05:37] face to bumpy face and back so they spend money doing that for angel spike dracilla

[01:05:44] all the other vampires are just bumpy all the time yeah because it's just a prosthetic right

[01:05:49] they just stick it on and that's done yeah yeah it's um i'm trying to remember how much we've

[01:05:57] seen it actually transform thus far in the series how many times have we actually seen them

[01:06:04] more from one to the other i don't know if they've used it much yet they do later

[01:06:08] yeah um but i think often now it's like you know you put your head down and then you you put your

[01:06:13] put your head back up again and you're you know all those little film tricks that they do

[01:06:17] um yeah rather than actually do it yeah because i again yeah like 90s it was still quite expensive

[01:06:22] to do that in a kind of CGI and it kind of looked bad too like so they didn't do it unless

[01:06:27] it was an important story moment they also i remember reading that um the important

[01:06:34] character vampires angels bike dracilla whatever had custom made things by like a

[01:06:41] a special effects dentist and most of the other vampires are wearing just like

[01:06:48] things that you could buy at a Halloween store yeah yeah and i can't talk probably with them

[01:06:54] exactly so you can tell sometimes when somebody's in vampire face and their fangs don't

[01:07:00] don't fit them quite right because their speech comes out a little garbled

[01:07:05] there are a couple of scenes at moments in school hard where it sounds like spike has a list

[01:07:10] or something because he's he's clearly like that's his first time working with those fangs in his

[01:07:15] mouth yeah yeah i think i think you're right uh it's funny we're so spoiled after you know 12 years

[01:07:21] of the walking dead and some of the best special effects that have ever been on television

[01:07:27] and now when i look at older shows i'm like oh i can see the plastic

[01:07:33] the digital stuff is is improving throughout buffy too they're like when you first saw and season one

[01:07:38] when they dusted them it was shocking and then i think they they went okay we really want to show

[01:07:43] how evil the judges and so when he when he dusts the um the accountant guy we're going to make

[01:07:48] it quite spectacular so he had sort of a few stages and he kind of changed and then he went on fire

[01:07:53] and then he kind of melted and yeah that was i think at the time that probably would have fun

[01:07:56] ooh look how cool this is yeah that was like a set piece that was a big deal oh that's awesome

[01:08:02] it's funny i you know sometimes i sort of think about what if there was a of buffy reboot that

[01:08:07] rebooted from the beginning and what would that be like like what network would be the best to

[01:08:13] produce it and who would i want involved in it and and i always think about like i hope they

[01:08:18] wouldn't mess around too much with the vampires dusting because i like that thing the way it is

[01:08:25] on buffy where like the vampire gets staked sometimes and then they're like oh no and then you see

[01:08:30] like their body sort of turn into an outline of dust and then fall um i that's my favorite vampire

[01:08:39] killing effect i've ever seen and i just i want to keep it even if they reboot

[01:08:45] that's great so vampires in this world can have sex and before i watch this i was very into

[01:08:53] an arise and so my kind of benchmark for vampire mythology and what they can and can't do

[01:09:00] was based more on an arise and so with those you know interview the vampire and all of her other

[01:09:04] novels when you become a vampire you lose all kind of earthly human needs and desires so

[01:09:13] they can't have sex they can't eat or drink food or you know whereas you see in the

[01:09:19] the buffy vampires are much more human you know they can they can eat they can they can drink alcohol

[01:09:27] and they can obviously have sex i thought it was quite interesting this sort of the first

[01:09:31] point that you really noticed that in the series when in buffy and angel get together so

[01:09:37] i thought that was quite interesting and different bit of a different change um

[01:09:42] i also wrote a note here sunny day i'll has docks oh yeah like you kind of sunny day i'll just

[01:09:48] this fictional Californian town and up until now you don't really know about that it's like

[01:09:53] and then there's quite a few episodes later where they're like check all the airports and all the

[01:09:57] docks and all the train stations i'm like wow it's like sunny day i was like set grain central

[01:10:01] of killer what year it's got stocks as much as see more than one everything yeah

[01:10:07] there's a container ship just sitting there there's nobody around you know yeah sunny day i'll

[01:10:11] say a town that expands and contracts to fit needs um yeah you know like for the other times it

[01:10:19] seems like it's in the desert like yeah we won't talk too much about it but yeah there are points

[01:10:23] at which it seems very visit-based like it more in land California yeah and like there's that

[01:10:27] college that buffy and cordelia go to a party at uh in reptile boy and uh it's like oh i guess

[01:10:35] there's a small college in sunny day but then later there's also a UC sunny day it's like an entire

[01:10:41] university campus is in sunny day that nobody knew about of until now it's it's just uh it's

[01:10:47] very TV convenient whatever plot requires them what they have sunny day i'll have docks now

[01:10:53] we need dogs one of my favorite things about buffy is that uh she is very resourceful and creative

[01:11:01] with her slaying and good at finding weapons from her environment and in this particular episode

[01:11:06] it was a drumstick when she crashed through that window at the bronze that window by the way

[01:11:11] gets broken like five or six times a season uh uh uh that's really cool but the drumstick

[01:11:17] just loved it yeah and and um cordelia pops up surprise completely oblivious toys going on

[01:11:26] yeah it's so cool though or the characters are just amazing i love odds in that scene as well

[01:11:30] but they're like what is that and he goes looks like an arm yeah

[01:11:35] isn't like it is in the way he says did everybody else just see that guy turn in a dust

[01:11:41] yeah it's cool he goes with it uh the other the other thing i loved i only noticed at the second time

[01:11:49] when they're doing the round robin and they're calling their parents to say that they're staying

[01:11:52] at each other's house and zander causes mom and he goes mom hi and then he pours and then he goes

[01:12:00] it's zander like it's mom it's mom doesn't know who he is and it's so zander like you kind of

[01:12:06] you can kind of get that he's that character because you know it's a really tiny little point but

[01:12:11] man you can kind of understand the way he is if his mom doesn't recognize him when he calls and

[01:12:15] says hi mom yeah and i think he's an only child so that's

[01:12:21] because i know that um when i was younger my mother couldn't tell the difference between me and

[01:12:28] my sisters over the phone so if one of us would call her and be like hey mom can you could pick

[01:12:33] me up she'd be like that makes sense if you have a child yeah yeah it does make sense we've got

[01:12:41] eight kids or something but yeah yeah just take it as i love how this liberating other students

[01:12:48] in the library no never even during class time there's no students either it's really funny um

[01:12:55] and then my last my last remote was i just wanted to touch on um their ages at the time of

[01:13:00] shooting so um at this point buffy was 20 um and willow was 23 this is the actor's age actor played

[01:13:09] zander was 26 wow angel and jenny calendar both 28 and jiles is 44 and i think joys it's around

[01:13:17] similar age for jiles and maybe a little younger they like 41.2 and i think it's really cool you

[01:13:23] know they have these older actors that can play school children and there's a very practical reason

[01:13:27] for that so if someone's under 18 they have much stricter laws about how long they're a lot to

[01:13:31] the onset four they have to have different breaks schedules they have to have a um a guardian present

[01:13:36] and so on so um it's very common especially back then to have quite a lot older people playing

[01:13:42] these high school characters we think about zander he's playing 10 years lower than his actual age

[01:13:48] it works they're all pretty baby faced in and so on but yeah Alison hand again especially looks like a

[01:13:54] teenager she looks yeah yeah yeah yeah she's the same age as i am so kind of when i when i watch it

[01:14:00] i think that's what the stage that i was at and uh it's really yeah i don't even know what's so funny

[01:14:07] some of the music in this episode was really fun um at dracilla's party the song that was playing

[01:14:13] and dracilla was very sexily dancing to it uh was called transylvania concubine by rasputina

[01:14:21] which is funny because rasputina was reportedly also impossible to kill and had to be dismembered by an

[01:14:30] army so um it's a little very subtle reference there uh the other song was called anything by

[01:14:40] shan clement shan mary featuring kari how on the vocals and that was playing during buffy's

[01:14:47] first prophecy dream and then a little bit of trivia and i'm gonna really ruin this but in buffy's

[01:14:55] dream when she sees willow willow says in french oh gosh this is gonna be embarrassing lipo pique

[01:15:03] tome pantalon which means the hippo stole your pants uh she says this to that little monkey that's

[01:15:10] a throwback reference to her conversation with aas near the end of what's my line two when they're

[01:15:15] talking about animal crackers and aas is like the monkey is the only animal that gets to wear pants

[01:15:22] and and then he does a little french accent and he's like i'm monkey with my monkey pants

[01:15:28] and oh it's cool and then he says all monkeys are french so that's why that showed up in the dream

[01:15:33] and oh that's cool good spotting very cute um and that is everything i have that's not spoilery

[01:15:40] yeah same for me excellent that brings us to a very important question on one

[01:15:52] does it still slay i believe it does maximum sledge from my end how about you

[01:15:59] it definitely slays this episode is not as explosive as the next one which is it's it's closer

[01:16:09] but it builds up all of the tension that's gonna pay off in the next one and i definitely think

[01:16:15] it's slaves excellent uh we don't have any news big surprise since this show is uh 25 years old

[01:16:23] or 20 years old um and i still don't know exactly the audible series that's coming out on

[01:16:32] october 12th i'm still not sure if it's a one and done kind of thing or if it's gonna be episodic

[01:16:38] but uh we're definitely gonna cover it on here so you know go out and and listen to it when it comes

[01:16:44] out and send us your feedback and and we're gonna have an episode at least one episode about it

[01:16:48] maybe several depends on how long it is and uh we did get some listener feedback

[01:16:56] bronze things things of bronze uh we have one from instagram on when if you want to read that for us

[01:17:04] sure jolene abby says first time i watched it i was sure jenny would tell them watching you and then

[01:17:09] when she didn't i knew something bad was gonna happen it's not my favorite episode but i love the

[01:17:13] next one excellent thanks jolene and uh everybody follow us on um instagram we're still slaying

[01:17:21] above you first podcast on instagram and we'd love to have you on there with us uh and then we have

[01:17:28] a voicemail from steve brown hello still slaying this is steve and this is gonna be for bookage

[01:17:37] and first layer season to episode 13 surprise i have to admit a lot of people don't like it but bad

[01:17:43] eggs is one of my favorite episodes of the entire series just because of the look that buffy gets

[01:17:50] in her eye when she jumps down on that pit or actually when she comes back out of killing the pit

[01:17:55] and she's got that axe in her hand and uh the uh uh vampire just looks at us oh i'm gone

[01:18:02] but anyway this is for surprise not bad eggs i forgot that as the series gets later and later in

[01:18:08] seasons we don't get as many of these prophetic dreams that buffy has remember what will assess

[01:18:12] in french but it's something about the the monkey's pants right remember when i first watched this

[01:18:17] because you know 20 something 25 years ago or whatever it was uh but uh man this is a good episode

[01:18:24] of course angel and buffy big smoochies oh she said surprise me so surprise mic drop

[01:18:31] title the episode oh i like seeing you at bedtime yeah foreshadowing i'm living groupie fleet

[01:18:37] fleet i'm living groupie free nowadays i'm claim again the word surprise mic drop

[01:18:43] of i love zander and kredelius related idiot jet it's good for punishment oh you crazy kid jusilla

[01:18:49] one second you're talking creepy crazy and then you're ripping up flowers or the guy with the hat i

[01:18:54] forgot about him for a second the insansky of velly i don't know to say his name but yeah uh

[01:19:01] this episode sets up so much for the future of the series and for the season and the series really

[01:19:07] i love jiles we're having a party tonight and but besides the word surprise is just being used way too

[01:19:12] much i'm not gonna try to keep track but your mic's being dropped i love it she sees the guy who stole the

[01:19:18] book of whatever and he's like every time i see you you're stealing something you really talk to

[01:19:23] someone about this klepto issue of it and kredelius the next one to say surprise mic drop

[01:19:29] i love i love osz's reply actually it explains a lot what was jenny's plan to separate them before

[01:19:38] they discovered the judges arm i don't know why does van pyreny glasses anyway okay so i didn't

[01:19:45] realize that buffy and angel got separated at this point angels with jenny and buffie's in the library

[01:19:51] oh so drew and spike stink of humanity but this guy because he reads he's getting burnt up um they've

[01:19:58] already got all the boxes one place buffie sorry oh jusilla says she dreamed that buffy would come

[01:20:04] well and we all know with this moment of passion is gonna lead to uh that's spoiling though so

[01:20:09] talk to you later thanks steve that was excellent i love that i just absolutely love that we get a live

[01:20:15] steve from a show that aired 25 years ago that's brilliant and i know steve's a fan so it's really

[01:20:21] cool to get his perspective on you know the the past and present in the future of the show which is

[01:20:25] great thanks steve and someone to defend bad eggs because it was not gonna ever be me there you go

[01:20:32] okay all right so that concludes the main section of the podcast stay tuned if you want to hear

[01:20:43] our spoilery discussion and if you'd like to join the conversation or just find out more about

[01:20:48] podcastica you can find all kinds of information at podcastica.com you can write in or record a

[01:20:55] voice message right there on podcastica.com or find links to our social media pages and other shows

[01:21:01] some of the other shows that are going on right now and there are so many uh i've been really enjoying

[01:21:07] the coverage of a soka which just concluded this week that's been great on star wars tv cast

[01:21:15] and white lotus has been fun what have you been listening to online yeah those are my main two

[01:21:21] that i've been listening to recently and like you say there's actually so much at the moment

[01:21:26] head on over to the website and check it out um because there is a show that everybody there

[01:21:32] I've really been enjoying white lotus particularly um because i watched the first season a while back

[01:21:38] and listened to the first seasons coverage and now watching season two along with the podcast

[01:21:42] which is always fun it's my favorite way to do it when you're actually watching the show waiting

[01:21:46] each week for it to come out yeah that's the most fun and yep and of course Darryl Dixon as well

[01:21:52] i'm actually really enjoying too so that's been fun to listen to yeah if you're working with your

[01:21:56] fan oh and what and Wheel of Time has been really really fun um i that show is really large it has

[01:22:08] a large cast it has a complicated plot it's perfect for a podcast uh and Greg who's the host

[01:22:16] on there with Veronica Greg has read the Wheel of Time's books like 20 times so he just knows off the top

[01:22:22] of his head answers to any of the questions that Veronica comes up with and she has lots of great

[01:22:27] questions it's a little bit like on when you're in my dynamic on cast of the rings oh cool yeah it's

[01:22:35] nice awesome yeah it's a good format isn't it it's kind of like yeah yeah play along and

[01:22:41] and get the information in the way that works for everybody it's fantastic if you like what we do

[01:22:47] please hit like follow and subscribe on whichever platform you're using send us a rating send us a review

[01:22:55] those things help other listeners to find us and also honestly when we get a

[01:23:00] like a friendly review it it really makes our day yeah it gives us warm fuzzies and the

[01:23:06] best kind of rating is the five star rating as you know next time we'll be covering the second

[01:23:12] half of the story season two episode 14 innocence fun fact surprise and innocence were aired two nights

[01:23:18] in a row as you see it earlier puny January the 19th and 20th of 1998 and that was pretty cool back

[01:23:24] in the day when you couldn't binge um the second one dropping the the night after was was pretty exciting

[01:23:29] yeah that was a big deal back then and uh on one is gonna be back with us next week and hopefully

[01:23:34] Cara will be back and uh that's gonna be fun so on when we'll get to conclude her thoughts

[01:23:41] on this two-part episode so much exciting exciting goodness to come we'll talk to you next time

[01:23:48] thanks everyone yep vampires are real a lot of them live in sunnydale I know it's hard to accept

[01:23:56] it first actually that explains a lot all right that's the end of the non-spoiler section if you

[01:24:04] want to avoid spoilers you need to stop listing in three two one now now on to the watcher's

[01:24:13] diaries and all the spoilers we ever might want to talk about before next week

[01:24:18] it's too bad we can't sneak a look at the watcher diaries I'm sure it's full of fun facts to know and tell

[01:24:23] yeah that's too bad that stuff is private also jails keeps someone is office in his personal

[01:24:32] finals most importantly it would be wrong

[01:24:40] spoiler spoiler spoilers I haven't got anything written down but I'm just very excited to be able

[01:24:44] to say oh my goodness yeah like all the stuff that is gonna come up and it's really cool watching

[01:24:51] a game years later and remembering what had happened next because you know sometimes you forget

[01:24:57] the things that happened later yeah like I did with Jenny calendar I was like oh hang on I remember

[01:25:02] something I can't remember her very well but something bad happened and then she turned bad and

[01:25:05] then was she actually good and then what happened so kind of lent quite a lot more to me watching

[01:25:10] it this time to go oh what was it again so not with the full memory of what happened but

[01:25:16] um the bit of a knowledge about what we know was there anything that stood out for you this

[01:25:21] this time around um I uh I really was disturbed by the angel and buffy relationship and during

[01:25:30] this rewatch more and more I've been thinking that angel even though he is not angelus right in his

[01:25:38] angel form with his soul he's still a predator like we learn in at the end of this season that he saw

[01:25:44] buffy when she first gets her calling as the slayer and decides he wants to help her and he

[01:25:50] like cleans himself up and then goes to sunny day all and he kind of stalks her in the beginning

[01:25:56] when they first meet and they you know they fall in love and they have crazy chemistry together but

[01:26:02] he's using her for his own atonement right he he is miserable when um that demon guy finds him and

[01:26:10] shows him buffy and he's just like wallowing in his misery for the evil base has done

[01:26:16] does any kind of all like homelace and kind of all like yeah yeah yeah yeah and then you know

[01:26:21] he decides he wants to help buffy but he's he's sort of trying to piggyback his own atonement on top

[01:26:28] of her mission um and he seems you know he doesn't know about the the secret twist in the curse but

[01:26:38] he seems in this episode especially to be engaging in this relationship with buffy without any sort of

[01:26:46] I am a 200 year old vampire reservations right he's like I'm so in love with you too right I'm

[01:26:52] devoted I'm committed to you like he's he's acting like he's an appropriate match for her and it's

[01:26:59] knowing what's gonna happen and also knowing about the age difference and being much older myself now

[01:27:06] I can't look past it it really disturbs me I wonder if it would be more well not more acceptable but I

[01:27:15] wonder if he's the more you know evident that he has second thoughts because he does he does say um

[01:27:22] releases he loves her he says I've tried not to I've tried not I've tried to resist or I've tried

[01:27:27] not to I would like to see more explanation in that why did he try not to and what are his feelings

[01:27:34] we don't actually ever hear why he thinks it's wrong or why he shouldn't like what what's

[01:27:38] what's holding him back I'd like to know all that stuff because yeah sort of as he as he

[01:27:44] just doing it for his own ends or has he really pulled in up with it and I do believe in the story

[01:27:50] that that he has but it's kind of like if you've been around that long you would have some insight

[01:27:56] into thinking about what might be wrong with that um but then again he is you know this completely

[01:28:03] tortured soul who's done all these terrible things and has all this massive remorse and it just

[01:28:08] might be really really tempting to have this pure love that is um you know decent and true and

[01:28:17] and that he hasn't really had before so yeah that that must be appealing for him and it must be literally

[01:28:23] abarmed to his soul so you know it's you can kind of I'm not justifying it I'm just saying you

[01:28:29] can see where that might come from it doesn't make it right but no I could really understand the appeal

[01:28:34] of Buffy right she's she's good but she's also a fully formed human right she's funny she's sweet

[01:28:45] she's vulnerable she's innocent she's pure I mean a lot of guys are in divergence she's a

[01:28:52] version um but I also think he thinks he can sort of absorb some of her innocence and goodness

[01:29:00] by being with her um yeah that's sort of what I mean by the bomb to the soul like it's you know

[01:29:06] he's damaged and he's he's broken and he's he's never gonna get past all the things that he did

[01:29:11] but that he can absorb some of that goodness and and being with her might produce something that's

[01:29:19] good between them that that might be helpful to him um isn't it crazy how you just don't I just

[01:29:27] didn't think of all that stuff and I was watching this show and I was you know 24 yeah it was just like oh

[01:29:33] there's star cost lovers they're they're never gonna be able to work out but it's so beautiful

[01:29:40] but also I wonder if some of it is actually that when you watch the show for the first time through

[01:29:46] you hear oh yes what angel actually tortured Dressilla um and because have we seen have we I'm just

[01:29:55] trying to be correct here I know we can be spoilery but up till now on this chronology of the show

[01:30:02] we know we know that angel tortured Dressilla right I think it's about that clip so yeah yeah so

[01:30:08] um so we know that about him but it's just a couple of lines we don't see it we don't really

[01:30:13] understand we've never seen Angelis yet so we don't understand it all we see is this tortured

[01:30:21] soulful attentive kind of you know handsome guy who's saying all the right things and being

[01:30:27] you know surfing into safe but occasionally and all that sort of stuff so I think the first time

[01:30:33] you watch it it's maybe less problematic because you don't know his true nature you've heard a

[01:30:37] little bit about it but you haven't seen it and we haven't seen the extent of it and then later on

[01:30:41] in this series when you get heaps of flashback scenes I really hope somebody has put together a

[01:30:47] whole montage of all of the flashback scenes with with angel and Drew and Spike and Dala who I

[01:30:54] remember it comes into it is amazing um it would be really cool to watch a whole montage of

[01:31:00] everyone put them all in one day yeah in one yeah yeah if anyone knows about it please send us a link

[01:31:05] because I would love to see that yeah but yeah the stuff that you find out later and then also

[01:31:10] when you see how cruel Angelis is you know in the next few episodes when you've seen him turn

[01:31:15] you're like oh that's who he was for much longer than he was a human with a soul so it's

[01:31:20] like yeah yeah it's um it's a bit horrifying I think it might lend itself to our retrospective

[01:31:28] view of Angel and it not being right and in him you know he should know better yeah but at this

[01:31:34] point in this series watching it from the start without any other information I don't think it says

[01:31:38] it's not as evident yeah I had a wrong memory about this episode in my memory it ends with

[01:31:47] um the shot that's actually gonna be the beginning of the next episode where Angel finds that

[01:31:52] woman in the rain and bites her neck and she has a cigarette and then when he drops her dead on

[01:31:59] the ground and blows out smoke and I thought that was the cliffhanger at the end of this episode but

[01:32:05] it's actually the beginning of the next one so when this episode ends we don't know what's wrong

[01:32:09] with Angel we just know he's in the rain screaming buffy and he's in pain yeah yeah we don't know

[01:32:15] that he's that he's lost his losing his soul yeah yeah I'm just saying I'm excited for next week

[01:32:21] this episode is also the first of the buffy's birthday is always a disaster episodes

[01:32:28] and I myself have a pattern of disastrous birthdays so it's one of the aspects of buffy that I

[01:32:35] always really identified with I was like yeah yeah sometimes birthdays just suck uh

[01:32:43] in the first prophecy dream when um when duzilla steaks Angel from behind the pose and the

[01:32:53] expression that he makes are from the finale of this season it's um it's the exact pose and facial

[01:33:01] expression that he makes um when buffy swords him and sends him to hell yeah and that's only

[01:33:09] something that you would know if you've like done a rewatch because you have to watch

[01:33:13] yeah yeah it did look and looks familiar to me but I didn't know why so thank you yeah you can

[01:33:18] if you look at them in close proximity you can see that they clearly took the footage from

[01:33:23] the finale and like paste it in it's exact um with whatever the 90s version of CGI was

[01:33:32] did they recognize does did they shoot the whole season I mean release or were they releasing as

[01:33:36] they weaned because they're used to have like 24 episodes so it would be strut over like six months

[01:33:41] for yeah they were releasing oh I don't know specifically about this show but most shows were

[01:33:48] releasing as they went and they were still writing as they went but they would be a few months

[01:33:55] a like a like five or ten episodes ahead um of where the released episodes were so they would have

[01:34:02] had time if they knew they wanted to do that to set up that kind of shot or maybe he just did a

[01:34:07] really good job of recreating it because it looks identical yeah the other thing that I did notice

[01:34:14] looking back at this episode was Willow who is one of my favourite characters and hopefully I'll get

[01:34:21] the chance to to guest again in later seasons um and get to talk about her again but when you think

[01:34:27] about what she becomes later and how powerful are which she becomes and what happens with her

[01:34:34] almost destroying the planet is such a stark contrast to seeing her here with her little

[01:34:39] ear cut earrings in her big stupid velvet hat and flirting with ours and stuff it's incredible I

[01:34:45] just think yeah I think the two of the characters with the biggest arc in this show are Cordelia

[01:34:51] and Willow when you look at it across the arc of Angel as well um and so for the same reason I love

[01:34:56] looking back at Cordelia she she annoyed the crap out of me in these first ones and then later it

[01:35:01] just becomes such cool character so it's really fun to see their beginnings yeah um and I think

[01:35:06] like to say the rushes wouldn't have known that they were going with these guys you know see what

[01:35:10] happens I don't think it's amazing right yeah and Cordelia starts getting a lot more layers in season 3

[01:35:17] she becomes a lot more interesting uh and yeah I love when Willow gets witchy

[01:35:24] does that that scene and yeah if I get invited back I would love to be on that episode

[01:35:31] and see I think it's in season 6 isn't that the end season 6 oh well yeah all right let's cross

[01:35:36] that bridge when we when we come to it yellow crayon I love rainy willow just as much as yellow crayon

[01:35:42] the willow it's a beast it's such a sweet moment with zander and then buffy and dollon oh yeah season 6

[01:35:50] season 6 is weird because some of it's bad and some of it's amazing and it's just yeah it's a roller coaster

[01:35:56] season all right that's the complete end of our show thank you for listening everyone until next time

[01:36:05] I'm penny and I'm ennuin keep playing

[01:36:26] you