6: "Innocence" (BTVS S2E14)

[00:00:00] Hmm?

[00:00:01] Ah!

[00:00:03] Hmm.

[00:00:04] You should have seen her face. It was priceless.

[00:00:11] I'll never forget it.

[00:00:13] So you didn't kill her then?

[00:00:15] Of course not.

[00:00:16] No, I know you haven't been in the game for a while, mate,

[00:00:21] but we still do kill people.

[00:00:24] Sort of our resendetra, you know.

[00:00:26] You don't want to kill her, do you? Hello, everybody. Welcome to Still Slaying, a Buffy Earth podcast. I'm Penny. And I'm Kara. And I'm Anwen.

[00:01:40] This episode, we're going to be discussing season two episodes are probably some of my favorites in the entire show. So surprise was one that it was great to go back and watch again. But I think most

[00:03:01] of my thoughts are about innocence. That's where I feel for me the age that I was when this was originally airing, I was cognizant of the Bill Clinton and Monica Lewinsky scandal. And I can remember, you know stuff back to back. I would have been so happy for that. And it's when Dawson is absolutely brilliant. And I love watching the subtle differences that he brings out on screen to show us the difference between Angel and Angelus.

[00:07:01] And the way he carries himself, the way he turns, oh, I want a cigarette. It really is true that seeing people smoke on screen makes you want to smoke. It's really sad. But also, I agree Penny, and also, I don't like smoking either and you don't see it in

[00:08:21] TV anymore, really. But some people smoke so well and David to create the most emotional damage possible, which makes him so much more terrifying than your average kind of monster of the week villain or even other big bags that we see earlier on

[00:09:41] like the master and later on, but he's there, and the way he acts toward her, I swear that conversation could have been pulled out of my own life. Like when I hooked up with some guy and then the next day he was all like, I should have known you couldn't handle it. Like it's such classic. Like dude, like, you know,

[00:11:04] it's too intense for you. You're a child. But then he loves her, which she doesn't quite understand what had happened yet, but the way he just brushes her off and is so cold is so crushing to watch every single time.

[00:13:40] Yeah, and she looks so vulnerable. She just like, your outfit is so girly. Like, nobody ever tries to change that about her. Giles sort of makes some comments about it once in a while, but they're more to the effect of like kids today in their weird fashions. Not like a slayer should be wearing, you know, tougher clothes. Yeah.

[00:13:41] There's a great line in season four where she's like,

[00:13:43] oh, I've patrolled in this halter many times.

[00:13:45] And the halter she's wearing is like held on I'm so amazing that she could hold that rocket launcher and look badass and sad at the same time all at once. Such an amazing moment. I also love that we get to see this connection that Angelus has with Drusilla. And when he's like, nobody knows me like you do, Jirou,

[00:15:03] and you start to see the beginnings

[00:15:05] of what's gonna be this It really is. Oh, Angelus. I know that when Spike first sees Angel in School Hard, he calls him Angelus. And it goes back and forth over the course of this season.

[00:16:23] And I don't think it's fun for the audience and it must've been so much fun for David to play, to suddenly break out and be just this theatrical character who has so much more movement and so much more kind of dynamic display of behavior

[00:17:41] with everything he says and his movements and everything.

[00:17:44] It just must've been so fun.

[00:17:46] And the scenes where that when he's got a soul, he's tormented by the things that he did as a vampire. Now without a soul, he's just like, ha ha, that's awesome, Angel. You do that to her as well, because you did it to me and that's funny. Oh, it just got me. She's delighted to have him back. Oh yeah. She says, we're a family again. She's so happy.

[00:20:20] Exactly, she's so into it.

[00:20:23] And then later when Buffy and Angel fight,

[00:20:25] that fight at the mall, you know,

[00:20:27] with the sprinklers going and everything, This is a great example of the teen anxiety of losing your virginity and what are people gonna think? Cause one of the things that happens as a result of angel turning is that the fact that they had sex becomes immediately public to Buffy's friends, right? Giles knows, Jenny knows, Willow knows,

[00:21:40] Cordy knows, Xander knows, everybody knows.

[00:21:43] And it had horrible consequences of when I was a teenager, right? It was like, oh, they're going to think I'm a slut. And in the 80s and 90s, that was a really big thing. Like, it wasn't as common for people to lose their virginity at an early age back then. Like, 16, 17 was like an outlier, really.

[00:23:03] Like, not that many people were having sex in high school.

[00:23:06] I think it's much more common now. is that it tackles this incredibly difficult, intimate, personal private experience that so many teenagers have, and it just splashes it across the screen. And yeah, David and Sarah are remarkable together in their scenes and her pain and his coldness.

[00:24:23] It's a thing of beauty. world implications. But the kind of, you know, purity culture thing, like I was raised, you know, I grew up in Houston raised in the, it was like peak purity culture time, like there were. Yeah, lock and key metaphor that, you know, a lock that can be opened by multiple keys is a terrible lock, but a key that can open, you know, multiple locks. Well, that's a, that's a useful key, like that type of crap those feelings every single time that I watch it. Now I'm getting kind of like it's making me emotional just thinking about it again but I like your your you know your take that this is what really brings this show from good to great this deeper exploration and it's such a personal villain arc

[00:29:21] Yeah, they're hurting. You're having a rough time.

[00:29:23] Willow is the first one who understands that Buffy and Angel had sex, right?

[00:29:29] She did have a little bit of a warning in Surprise where Buffy was like, I think we're

[00:29:32] going too soon.

[00:29:34] But she gets it right away and she takes the lead.

[00:29:38] She's like, Giles, shut up.

[00:29:39] I love that.

[00:29:40] That moment was so great.

[00:29:41] She just, not even looking at him.

[00:29:43] She looks after, she looks like follows Buffy with her eyes.

[00:29:46] She knows exactly what happened and she just says shut up. Like one of us has to be the prettier one. One of us has to be like they both love each other so much. Buffy wants Willow to be hot, right? She's like, what do we make you hot in the Halloween episode? And she wants Willow to have a relationship. And she's like, Oz wants to be with you and Xander doesn't, so fuck Xander, right?

[00:31:00] Even though Xander is her friend,

[00:31:01] she's like, oh, this Oz guy seems really great.

[00:31:04] It's a lovely things like that that I think makes these characters resonate with viewers still what is it almost almost 30 years after it's taken place 20 plus years you just I don't know what they feel very lived in their friendships feel real and three-dimensional and complex

[00:33:25] of the end of her crush and it's nice that it coincides well with her starting to go out with Oz because she has that. But that's a massive thing and she's heartbroken by it and you know

[00:33:32] that line that you said Kara that you'd rather be with someone you hate than be with me and you can

[00:33:37] see how much that hurts him as well that he realizes and he's so remorseful about it and

[00:33:41] because he does love her really cares for her so much as a friend. And the dynamic of that love I think about kissing you and it's like everything stops like it's like freeze frame. Willow, kiss each other that contrast. It gives you that hope. It makes you realize that there's good out there in the world.

[00:36:21] It's like the perfect first real boyfriend.

[00:36:25] Like I could not think of a better, you know, we, I don like for more guys to be just like us. Boyfriend goals. And yeah, he knows that she likes him so much, and he likes her, but he wants that start of the relationship to be meaningful. So he actually pulls it right back and goes, this is not how it's gonna start. It is gonna start, but it's gonna be in a way that's not based on your need for vengeance

[00:37:41] or your need to justify anything to Xander.

[00:37:42] And I love that he can separate that.

[00:37:45] He's not very easy for a teenage boy And so Buffy first attacks her in class and I love that you know you had that that dream sequence where Angel says you've just got to know what to see or know what you're looking at kind of thing and then she wakes up and goes Oh Jenny and then she just storms into class furiously Giles is shocked and you

[00:39:02] know he asks Buffy well how do you know you were responsible and I just love changes them forever and later when they're getting ready to attack the judge and Jenny asks what else she can do. Buffy says get out. Like it's not a surprise that Buffy says that but when Giles says it, man that hit me hard. He's pretty savage. He just also says yep, get out. And you just realize that's it. Nothing's the same between them.

[00:40:20] He turns on Jenny so fast. how different things are for all of them and it is moving it everything to the next level all the relationships and and all the plot which is great since we're talking about Jenny I Wanted to talk a little bit about her uncle and his description of vengeance

[00:41:46] You know, he talks about most people think vengeance is a verb. They think it's payback. It's like commerce But it's not it's a living thing

[00:42:44] Yeah, probably, but that's why I wouldn't be able to choose. Like it wouldn't be up to me.

[00:42:46] It would be up to a court.

[00:42:47] That's why we have a court.

[00:42:49] That's what the point is of the justice system

[00:42:51] is that it shouldn't be personal vendettas.

[00:42:54] And I just love that the Haven had the conversation, right?

[00:42:58] That he's like, we're not servants of justice.

[00:43:01] We serve our, we do our role.

[00:43:03] We play our part.

[00:43:04] And if his soul isn't tormenting him anymore,

[00:43:06] then he doesn't outside to even understand. And, you know, so many different attempts at creating peace have failed because of this attachment to vengeance, right? Nobody's willing to let that go and think more about justice.

[00:44:21] And it's tragic and it's in the real world. it sets up for the future and how many little hints kind of like in related to what you were saying Onwin about all these different changes in relationships. I think this episode is such a pivotal one for not just the season but the rest

[00:45:40] of the series including you know the Angel think each time I'll rewatch it, and I watched it a few times when I was sick last week just to, you know, really let it sink in, and focusing on a different Scooby Gang member each time is kind of fun because with Giles, like, I do love how instantly

[00:47:02] he is on Buffy's side. about how excellent this sets us up for the future. And even more so when you realize that they didn't know what the future was, these guys were writing, you know, season by season and even within a season, they didn't know what was gonna be happening by the end of that season. And when you look at the whole arc of both Buffy and Angel

[00:48:20] and you look back on an episode like this,

[00:48:22] it makes it more incredible that they were able

[00:48:25] to create this magic that led on to more magic, like romance is dangerous. We get that in Reptile Boy. And we know that Angel tormented Drusilla, right? And we know that he tormented some poor gypsy girl. But I don't think anyone saw this coming. Like, oh, they're gonna take his soul back away.

[00:49:40] Like, I couldn't have predicted it.

[00:49:42] And it, but in retrospect, it's like,

[00:49:45] oh, that's the this crushed velvet jacket. I don't think we see this jacket again, but he's wearing this kind of like, like over the top dramatic white, crispy white collared shirt with this crushed, he looks like a magician. He's smarmy and he's quite smirky, you know, in the way that he speaks.

[00:51:02] He's not broody Angel yet. I know they were just figuring him out and he gives her a cross.

[00:51:06] And I did some reading and actually found out his true identity is when the cast and crew realized what they were going to do with with his character. And I watched a little snippet for episode 7 too when we do find out. And that's a pretty funny episode too. Angel goes back to Buffy's house after he's been chased by vampires and she she does that thing where she pretends, Joyce meets him and says okay off you go. And so she pretends says

[00:52:23] good night and they're like good night and this visitation doesn't really matter which but I thought that was

[00:53:40] quite interesting. I love that dream sequence, we did get quite a steamy kind of quite stylized, nothing graphic, but there was, you know, a lot of close ups and a lot of sighing and moaning and it was pretty it was pretty hot. But neither of the actors could take them seriously, apparently.

[00:55:01] And because they were such good friends, they were constantly pranking each other when it came time to kiss in their scene.

[00:55:05] So Sarah has said in interviews that she I can't say it again. Now I don't think it's right anymore. I can imagine that. He's like, okay, we need to record the ADR on this. Hey, sound it in. Let's go in the booth and breathe heavy. Ew! It's just so uncomfortable. Every time I hear it now, it kind of takes me out of it. And I'm just like, well, here we go. Thanks. Oh, I'm so glad you told me because it's just,

[00:56:23] it's so bad it's good.

[00:56:25] You know what I mean?

[00:56:26] Like that's such a funny piece of trivia.

[00:56:28] I love it. And every time I see that one, it's like another little gut punch. But it makes me wonder, like I know that it was JW that wrote this episode and sometimes just like, damn, man, like, how did you come up with some of these lines and this stuff? Knowing what we know about him now. Yeah.

[00:57:40] It's kind of creepy. to Giles, you must be so disappointed. And he's like, you know, no, if you want someone to make you feel guilty, I'm not the person. What you'll get from me is my respect and my support. And it's, it's such a beautiful moment of supporting her and

[00:59:02] understanding her and meeting her where she is. You know, he Both of them offer her in that moment just comfort. There's no pushing, there's no questioning. It is terrible. And she has everything she needs here. So she has Giles who understands everything that goes on with her. But then she also has Joyce,

[01:00:20] who at this stage doesn't know anything

[01:00:21] that goes on within Buffy's life.

[01:00:23] But in some ways that's nice.

[01:00:24] I think Buffy likes having that to come home to,

[01:00:26] that she's just Buffy. He's just immediately supportive of her. It's so weird to watch Ted Lasso right now. Oh, yeah. Because I'm deep in Buffy. He's very different on that show. And then on Ted Lasso, he's such a jerk. Yeah. And it's- That's cool.

[01:01:40] I haven't seen it yet.

[01:01:41] I do want to watch it.

[01:01:42] I didn't realize he was there.

[01:01:43] It's really good.

[01:01:44] And yeah, he plays another character named Rupert. like last episode and he's already contributing, right? And this sort of solidifies it, doesn't it? It's his place in there. I thought the scene was pretty over the top, but I think it was also kind of necessary. Like we have to get the judge out of the way because he's not the big bad anymore. Angel's the big bad. So let's just get rid of him. And I love when Buffy gets out the rocket launcher

[01:03:00] and both Driscilla and Angel dive for cover.

[01:03:03] They immediately know.

[01:03:04] I mean, I don't know what chance,

[01:03:05] I guess Driscilla's kind of been in the world for a bit.

[01:03:08] She seems a bit obvious, Oz.

[01:04:21] Look at her lies.

[01:04:22] Brilliant.

[01:04:23] Nice little continuity there. also risks his life to save her. It focuses on her finding out about Cordelia and then being upset, but he risks his life. He goes up to Angel with a crucifix and manages to get Willow away from him, which is incredible. So that definitely puts him up in my mind. And then I just love his lines. Like, wear something trashy, er.

[01:05:42] One of the lines.

[01:05:44] The other one was, I'm 17. Looking at Linoleum I will say to just a couple of honorable mentions, we mentioned Cordelia's couple of funny lines, but I just love when they bring her in to stuff because she just is so effortlessly funny and you know she There is something different about him and his feelings and the way that he emotes. But I do love his line when he's like, when do we destroy the world already? That's such a spike line.

[01:08:22] But gosh, I'll save just wouldn't work. Like there's so many times in Buffy where no one knows where everyone else is. Oh, they didn't check in with you. Where are they? Or, you know, Angel gets stuck in that cage by Kendra and the sunlight's coming and he can't text them and say, Hey guys, I'm over at the, in the bar.

[01:09:40] And it's good because it makes it more interesting.

[01:09:43] It makes it different to things that we watch now.

[01:09:44] And then also where it makes me remember this is what life was like when you didn't know we would call each other there. Cause like at night, usually one of my friends would be in the parking lot and I'd call to see if anyone was there, if I wanted to come over and hang out. I can't even imagine that now. That's so weird. That's so funny. It's so different, so drastically different. When I was looking at the original air date,

[01:11:01] typed in the on this day in history, when it popped up,

[01:11:06] I think you guys mentioned this last week, really old when I realized how much technology had changed. And that happens, I feel like with my generation within like five years of when I was born in 1988, we are still growing up without the internet when we were little and we didn't have cell phones until we were older and all this stuff.

[01:12:21] And it just kind of hits me every now and then

[01:12:24] how drastically different it is. childhood would have been affected if I could just stream or upload anything immediately because I felt like it I don't think I would have ever stopped watching TV. No. Yeah Just so much available and that's the thing kids today Don't realize like we're trying to talk to our kids that anything that you record or post is there forever For anyone to see ever

[01:13:43] They don't get it. Yeah, I highly recommend it. It's on Hulu in the US, Disney Plus and other places. There's definitely a season two coming. That's the end of my plug for Extraordinary. And Penny and Greg's coverage is fantastic.

[01:15:02] I'll plug you for that.

[01:15:03] Thanks, I really enjoyed it.

[01:15:05] We had so much fun covering that show by like a streaming service and not a broadcast TV station. I imagine it would have been a lot more graphic like Gen V is and it wouldn't have the same kind of magic and also like young girls wouldn't have been able to watch it. I feel like Buffy is a great role model for like sort of a middle school aged girl, right?

[01:16:22] Like this is what high school might be like.

[01:16:27] This could help prepare me for it. 12 years of The Walking Dead and my standards for special effects makeup are just really, really high now. But at the time Buffy was cutting edge. It's like damn you, Grant Nicotero. Yeah. But it is so 100%. Kara, we'll start with you. Does it still slay? I think not only does it still slay, but I think it always will.

[01:19:00] Just because I think no matter how much time passes, there will't think we've been mentioning it, but I'll look at what the broadcast draw, the number of households it drew in for each episode when we podcast. And to give you an idea, like the earlier episodes of season two that we were talking of were up on the basics of the plots. Yeah. Like I never watched Dawson's Creek, but I know a lot about Dawson's Creek. It's just it's kind of strange. So different when we actually had to sit and watch commercials and trailers. Yeah. Alright,

[01:21:44] that's the end of the We had a bar luncheon, like a Texas state bar luncheon this week and the state bar president of Texas gave her speech that is based on, you know, being like Ted Lasso.

[01:23:00] And so she shows all these cliffs and like little bits of wisdom to take with you into

[01:23:04] law practice.

[01:23:05] And I was like, this say we haven't mentioned Strange Indeed for a bit and the first episode for Fall of the House of Usher has dropped. So that's already there ready for you to listen to and I just love that Strange Indeed has such an extreme range. They've got that and then they've also got the Great British Baking Show. So how cool is that? That's a great

[01:24:22] example of podcast. It's got something for everyone. That stuff is private. Also, Giles keeps them in his office, in his personal files. Most importantly, it would be wrong. Oh, because this episode sets so much up. I love the Spike Driscilla Angel love triangle.

[01:26:45] favorite interactions between Spike and Joyce.

[01:26:50] And I just, every time I see this episode, I just think about that coming up and Spike, you know,

[01:26:54] he's just, he really is not like other vampires.

[01:26:57] He's so hurt by Drew and her, you know,

[01:27:02] kind of pushing him off to the side.

[01:27:05] And it's just, it's, that's another line that is funny to me every time. It's like Spike is like, I will be the betrayer. That's awesome. Like it's so perfect. Yeah. One thing that I had to catch myself from saying is, you know, when we were talking about Xander and how he immediately is just like, yeah, you know, yeah, it's Angel. Angel's

[01:28:24] gone bad. Like we know Angel's bad. Like a slayer and her friends Riley. I don't know if you can hear him, but I'm sure he picked it up on the microphone. Okay, he wants to know and understand her. But it's interesting to me that he really doesn't. He underestimates her because he doesn't believe that she can. And true, she can't in that moment. But you know, it's like the next day. She's got it in shock. But she just says give me time.

[01:31:01] And I love that it solidifies that resolve was. It was just really obvious that they were really kicking each other's butt. It was really cool to watch.

[01:32:21] Yeah.

[01:32:22] The other thing that I thought about with this episode was we talked about the relationships actor Caris McArthur agreed with Abrams sentiment but added that she believes Cordelia was the right person for Angel. So despite her being that sort of mean girl, you know, persona in Buffy, she does become his guiding light later on in Angel. And then contrast to that, Alison Hannigan, who plays Willow tweeted, actually Buffy should have dated Willow. And

[01:33:42] although, although their relationship as characters, you know, is later an angel where Buffy comes back to visit him and he becomes a human for a day. It's so sad. He kills me. This is actually the only other time they do actually have sex, they actually get back together. And then there was some plot, I have to watch it again,

[01:35:00] it was so heartbreaking, but there was some plot point

[01:35:02] where he realizes that he's too weak as a human,

[01:35:05] so he has to become the vampire again,

[01:35:07] so he gets the spell reversed, might not be the one that you end up with. Or the one that's right for you long term. Good for you to end up with and it's just poor Buffy. I mean, the way you fall in love at 16 or 17 is different. It just is. When it's your first love and you're so young,

[01:36:20] it's overwhelming.

[01:36:22] It's all encompassing.

[01:36:24] You have no frame of Like yes technically it is. It's but it's because he experienced

[01:37:47] a moment of true happiness and that would that when Buffy says right, Jenny's like they wanted to punish him for he has to pay for what he did to

[01:39:04] my people and Buffy's like anded on by a much older man. He just lets it happen.

[01:40:20] Like, I don't know, makes me very unhappy.

[01:40:25] Yeah, I guess he was-

[01:40:25] That was one line that I didn't like

[01:40:27] in the conversation in the car at the end slept with him that first night that he stayed in her bedroom with her. If you do think about it across the sort of school year, it's probably season-wise, it's probably been a year and a half that they've actually been together. Yeah. And he saved her life a bunch of times. Like there's not any reason why she would have

[01:41:40] thought she couldn't trust him. Yeah, absolutely. And he did love her. Like he was 100% looking out PTSD, like they have all gone through multiple traumas together and I can't imagine when you think of the practicality of it being face-to-face with this person who did these horrible things and either tortured you in the case of you know Giles especially but your friends and trying to come to terms

[01:43:05] with the fact I think it's in, it keeps the show alight. This episode also had so many great zinger lines.

[01:44:20] You know, like Spike,

[01:44:21] you've really got a yen to hurt this girl.

[01:44:23] And Angel says, she made me feel like a human.