82: BTVS S5E2 “Real Me”

[00:00:00] Unsere Empfehlung für deinen Podcast? Frisches Obst und knackiges Gemüse von Aldi. Immer gut, immer günstig, immer vielfältig. Kurz gesagt, frische für alle. Zum Aldi-Preis. Diese Woche. Zespri Sangold Kiwi. Das Stück für nur 55 Cent. Oder dunkle Tafeltrauben. 500 Gramm für nur 1,79 Euro. Entdecke jetzt viele weitere Angebote in deiner Aldi Nord Filiale. Und weiter geht's. Einfach lauschen und genießen. Aldi. Gutes für alle.

[00:00:30] Hmm? Ah! Nobody knows who I am... Not the real me. It's like, nobody cares enough to find out. I mean, does anyone ever ask me what I want to do with my life? Or what my opinion is on stuff? Or what restaurant to order in from? No. Underline. Exclamation point.

[00:00:55] Exclamation point. Exclamation point. No one understands. No one has an older sister who's a slayer. Riley, my sister's boyfriend, is so into her. They're always kissing. And groping. I bet they've had sex. Willow's the awesomest person. She's the only one I know who likes school as much as me. Even her friends are cool. I don't think Buffy's watcher likes me too much.

[00:01:25] I think it's because he's just so... Old. I'm not sure how old he is, but I heard him use the word newfangled one time. So he's gotta be pretty far gone. Xander is so much cuter than anyone. And smarter too. He totally skipped college and got a job working construction. Which is so kind of deep, you know? He builds things. And he's brave too. Just last week he went undercover to stop that Dracula guy. She still thinks I'm a little Miss Nobody.

[00:01:55] Just her dumb little sister. Boy, is she in for a surprise.

[00:02:02] Scoobies, welcome to Still Slaying, a Buffyverse podcast. I'm Penny.

[00:02:32] And I'm Kara. For this episode, we're going to be discussing Season 5, Episode 2 of Buffy the Vampire Slayer, titled Real Me, written by David Fury and Rebecca Kirshner and directed by David Grossman. This episode originally aired on October 3, 2000 to an audience of 3.9 million households. Some of the translated alternative titles in other languages for this episode were

[00:03:01] Jealousies in French, which it makes sense that that's how the French would see it, I guess. A Dangerous Invitation in Italian, and I have no idea who was invited to anything. I assume it was Dawn accidentally inviting Harmony and the other vampires into the house. Poor Dawn. Okay. Yeah. And then Dear Little Sister of Mine in German, which is hilarious because-

[00:03:31] I love it. Buffy wasn't the one writing a letter or missive, but okay. I love the Germans. Yeah. I do. I do enjoy the Germans. So let's take a journey back to early, the early 2000s. Find out what was going on in the world.

[00:03:56] This is like peak memories for me of watching Buffy in real time. I love this season. And not much changed in terms of the number ones. For music, number one song in the US is still Music by Madonna. And the number one song in the UK is still Against All Odds by Mariah Carey featuring Westlife.

[00:04:21] The best-selling books on the New York Times bestseller lists, The Bear and the Dragon by Tom Clancy is still number one in fiction. And Nothing Like It in the World by Stephen Ambrose is still number one in nonfiction. Now for the box office, we now have Remember the Titans at number one. And this is one of, I think, three movies my dad has ever seen in theaters. So it stands out for me. I remember going with him. He loved it.

[00:04:52] And number two, we have The Watcher. And at number three, we have Nurse Betty. Do you remember The Watcher? I don't remember what that's about. I just know it's not about Giles. Vaguely, I remember not being allowed to see it because I think it has to do with the serial killer. Oh, gross. But I don't know. All right. I might have to rewatch that now that I'm 38. I recommend Nurse Betty. Nurse Betty is great. That sounds good.

[00:05:20] I have to add that to my list. In the news that week, on the 1st of October, NBA stars Ray Allen and Vince Carter each scored 13 points to help the U.S. beat France 85-75 to win the men's basketball gold medal at the Sydney Olympics as the Summer Olympic Games came to a close. On the 3rd, Warner Brothers Records released You're the One, the 10th solo studio album by singer-songwriter Paul Simon.

[00:05:47] A Grammy nomination for album of the year made Simon the first artist nominated in the category in five consecutive decades. That's kind of crazy. Carrie Fisher once said about Paul Simon, If you ever have the opportunity to have Paul Simon write a song about you, you should do it, which I thought was hilarious. That's funny. Because we all encounter that decision all the time and really have to think hard about what to do.

[00:06:17] On October 3rd, Gore and Bush meet in the first presidential debate. It was contentious with issues ranging from foreign policy to tax cuts to Medicare. The Green Party candidate, Ralph Nader, who was banned from participating in the debate, was denied entrance and turned away. Oh my god, I remember this so well. The Nader people were rabid about this.

[00:06:42] We had to, I think for my history class, we had to watch the debate and take notes. And so that is seared in my brain. My neighbor from college was super into Ralph Nader. And I remember my parents discussing that at length.

[00:07:01] I, I mean, whatever politics, but I wish there were a viable third party or fourth party or fifth party in American politics. But I've never really been a huge fan of Ralph Nader. And his people during that election were really irritating. I don't know if this was campaign strategy or just the people I happened to come in contact with.

[00:07:27] But their primary messages were there's no difference between Gore and Bush. And if you vote for Gore, you're a horrible person. It sounds familiar. And while I agree that the Democrat and Republican parties both have certain things that I am not happy about as part of their culture and their policies and platforms, namely being beholden to corporate interests, there are many discernible differences between Gore and Bush.

[00:07:58] And also Nader is not so great. And I'm still frustrated about the results of that particular election. But yeah. Well, on For All Mankind, Gore won. Yeah, that's true. Gore wins in For All Mankind. Oh, man.

[00:08:16] Anyway, on October 4th, Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat and Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak left Paris negotiations without an accord to end violence in the West Bank and Gaza Strip. Both leaders ordered commanders to stem rioting, but fighting persisted. Always a conflict. Yeah. Oh, it's still my turn. That's good.

[00:08:46] I had my coffee today and everything. On October 5th, the TV show Gilmore Girls, created by Amy Sherman Palladino and starring Alexis Bledel, Lauren Graham, Kelly Bishop, and Edward Herman, debuted on the WB. Holy crap. Gilmore Girls came out 26 years ago? Yeah. Oh, my gosh. So the next summer, the summer of 2001, my little sister was living with me.

[00:09:15] And we have a pretty significant age difference. We're nine years apart. And at one point, we were out to dinner or something with a friend of mine. And we're like, oh, yeah, we're going to go back. We're going to go back home and watch Gilmore Girls. And he says, you are the Gilmore Girls. And I spent a lot of time trying to figure out which one I was. But I feel like you would be. Well, I don't know your sister. So that's difficult.

[00:09:44] But I feel like you would be Lorelei. I guess so. I'm not Emily. That's for sure. No. And I'm not Rory. But I don't know. I'm not any of them. But I think. Rory's too uptight for you to be. Right. Like Rory's just too. And she's not very cerebral, even though she's smart. Yeah. And she's so prim. Yeah. I feel like the humor and the wit and the creativity in Lorelei is how I see it.

[00:10:14] Maybe you're Lane Kim. I love Lane Kim. I do love Lane Kim. Probably more like Paris Geller. No, I'm not. I'm kidding. Paris. I just said that to be funny. Oh, Paris. It's a fun show. It's funny. I've watched some episodes of it recently and been like, wow, these women are kind of insufferable. I can't believe how much I loved them.

[00:10:39] But the the the patter of the dialogue and the small town charm stuff still works like crazy on me. I love that. Those small town shows like those will really are right in. Yeah. And I've lived in a small town. It's not anything like that. It's not as whimsical as they try to make it seem. No. Also, I always felt bad for any other teenager that lived in that town.

[00:11:06] The way that the entire town would be like, Rory needs a graduation party. What about all the other kids? Nope. Just Rory. They don't exist. No, it's fine. There's no other teenagers except sometimes Lane and sometimes Dean. That's it. Oh, friggin' Dean. Jared Padalecki went on to much better things. Yes. Very true. So let's get into it.

[00:11:33] This was a super Dawn-centric episode. So we talked about this before we started recording. There's really no way for us to talk about the mystery of Dawn and Dawn's identity without spoilers. So we're going to put all that in Watcher's Diaries this week and not talk about it in the main discussion. Suffice to say that we get a whole lot of Dawn screen time in this episode, but not really any answers. No answers.

[00:12:03] Yeah. Really? Not really. Other than she has clearly been a part of the summer household her entire life and everyone knows her and she is integrated into that group. Yep. Completely. What was your first impression? Do you remember when this episode first aired how you felt about Dawn?

[00:12:28] I remember conversations I had with friends where I was like, they're acting like she's always been there. It's so weird. Are we supposed to think she's always been there? No. I remember thinking I had missed something like a season or. Well, it's dope. That's this is the time before we had streaming. So like it's entirely possible you missed a couple of episodes here and there and you were

[00:12:57] like, was that in the episode I missed? Yep. Right. Like I usually VHS taped every episode so I could watch it more than once, but not always sometimes it was like you watched it when it was on or you were out of luck until like six years later when DVDs came out. So it. It was confusing. Everybody was like, what is happening? What's going on? Which is. Looking back on it. Brilliant.

[00:13:25] Because it got everybody talking about the show immediately when the new season dropped. So well done. Well, and even the ending of the previous episode, Buffy versus Dracula, when it's Joyce telling Buffy that she needs to take her sister with her and you get that mom. Oh God. The synchronized body language and voice intonation. So good. Perfect.

[00:13:50] And I remember watching that live and being like, what did hold on? What did I miss? And I remember going to school and talking to one of my other friends that watches it. And she, I, she was just like, yeah, don't you remember Buffy has a little sister? Oh, she played with you? Yes. And I was like, no, I do not remember that.

[00:14:14] And this episode only confused me even more, but watching it now, I think it is an underrated episode. Yeah. It has a terrible IMDB score compared to some of the other episodes. It has a lower IMDB score than teacher's pet. Really? Yes. And I was like, come on, guy, what are we doing? That's ridiculous. It's, it is an objectively funny episode.

[00:14:41] And I think people just decided to hate Dawn. I never did. Actually. I was like, all right, little sister. Fine. I've got a little sister. Buffy has a little sister. Works for me. She was exactly as I would expect a little sister to behave, especially one living in the shadow of Buffy Summers. Yeah. Like that makes complete sense. And it's kind of, it's interesting.

[00:15:06] The fan reaction to Dawn from what I remember is kind of similar to the fan reaction of the introduction of April. Yeah. And Gilmore Girls. People hated April. It's so polarizing. But. Or Jack on Supernatural. Oh gosh. Yes. Oh, Jack. But it's just, I don't know.

[00:15:29] I think the, the device that they use this diary trope to allow us to get to know her is brilliantly executed. It's simple, but we see how she perceives each of the Scoobies and we get to know her. And I thought Michelle Trachtenberg did a fantastic job of just kind of spitting in seamlessly. Yeah.

[00:15:57] It already feels lived in. Which is amazing. It's so impressive. Which is part of the reason why I think I was confused and thought I had missed a whole season because it seemed like, oh, it's always been this way. Exactly. That's why it was confusing. This is fine. Kaffee in seiner besten Form. Mit Cubo wird jeder Kaffee auf Knopfdruck zum Genussmoment. Denn mit der neuen Cubo One Kapselmaschine von Chibo genießt du feinsten Spitzenkaffee

[00:16:26] aus besonderen Anbaugebieten. Vollmundige Aromen dank innovativer Press-Brew-Technologie und über 17 Sorten Kaffee für jeden Geschmack. Erlebe Premium Kaffee schon ab 29 Euro. Entdecke jetzt die Cubo Kapselmaschinen in deiner Chibo Fiale und auf chibo.de. Verwandle deine Leidenschaft mit Shopify in ein Business. Und knack Umsatzrekorde mit dem Checkout mit der weltweit besten Conversion. Du hast richtig gehört. Der Checkout mit der weltweit besten Conversion.

[00:16:55] Der legendäre Checkout von Shopify vereinfacht das Shoppen auf deiner Website bis hin zu Social Media und überall dazwischen. Na, das ist Musik für deine Ohren. Wie du es auch drehst und wendest, mit Shopify kannst du zu einem echten Hip werden. Starte deinen Test noch heute für nur einen Euro pro Monat. Auf Shopify.de. I was thinking a lot about this because diary entries with voiceover are used a lot in narration, right? They're like all over movies and even books and whatever.

[00:17:25] You see them all the time. Some people think that it's lazy writing to use that kind of voiceover. There's a lot of literature on the subject. People on both sides either against voiceover or defending voiceover. I think it's all about how you do it. I think that in a case like this where they have a short amount of time to give us a lived in real feeling of a character and introduce her voice. I think it's a great tool.

[00:17:55] I agree with you. I think it's really smart. And it shifts the vibe of the whole show because they don't use voiceover on the show very often. I can only think of two other episodes that have a similar kind of voiceover. There's one in season two where Angel is talking about passions. And then there's one in season seven and that's whatever. Yeah, that was the one that immediately came to.

[00:18:17] And what I thought was interesting about this is when shows sometimes shift POV, and this is a show that uses the sort of omniscient third person. Like the point of view of the show is not any one particular character. But most of the time we're seeing Buffy as the main character and then other characters' stories are sidelined. This is a rare occasion when they shift to another character being the main character.

[00:18:47] And we get like, it's kind of like the Zeppo with Xander. Where it's the story as they see it from their perspective. Although we do also get some just parts of other people that Dawn doesn't see. That does happen. But often when you get one of these character POV shifts like this, they do, sometimes they do like a subjective version of the characters you're used to.

[00:19:12] My favorite is there's an episode of the X-Files where there's a he said, she said about something that happened in this town that had cow mutilations going on or something ridiculous. And what is the actor's name? Luke Wilson plays the small town sheriff.

[00:19:32] And in Mulder's version of the story, he's like this country yokel who's like always like chewing on a piece of hay and he's real dumb. He has like buck teeth. And in Scully's version of the story, he's this like handsome, rugged cowboy man. And I just always thought that was hilarious. There's also an episode of Supernatural called Tall Tales.

[00:19:56] I think it's in season two where the brothers are both telling Bobby of the events of the last few days. And they have very subjective versions of what happened, especially of each other. Right. And in Sam's version, Dean is this like buffoon who's like hitting on this like trash slutty woman. And in Dean's version, the woman is this like sophisticated grad student.

[00:20:23] And Sam is like whiny and like oversensitive. And it's just it's hilarious. I kind of feel like they missed an opportunity for we got Dawn's subjective view of all the characters in her voiceover. But like the visuals were still pretty standard omniscient third party. And I kind of would have enjoyed a Dawn subjective view of like Buffy and Riley making out. They would have been like gross and all over each other and disgusting.

[00:20:51] And like, you know, like the serial scene would have been so different. And Xander would have had like sparkles and stuff. And wind blowing through his hair. And Anya would not have been that pretty. Like it just I it would have been kind of funny. I would have been I would have enjoyed that. But I enjoy a voiceover from time to time. I don't think it should be in every movie. I think sometimes it is abused to be like, oh, yada yada the plot. And then we have here's an explanation.

[00:21:20] But when it's used in a way that adds to the story, like this is giving us Dawn's voice, which we've never had before. Yep. I like it works so well here.

[00:21:30] And I love that that serial scene, that opening is so perfect for so many reasons, because I think one thing that really works with the introduction of Dawn is so many of us can relate to having a sibling and, you know, the petty arguments or whatever here and there.

[00:21:51] And watching that scene unfold with, you know, Dawn taking Buffy's bowl away and pouring in the cereal and using all the milk before Buffy gets to it and everything being done in silence. The way the two of them play that off is setting the stage for the rest of the episode. It feels so natural. You understand the dynamics between them immediately. Yeah.

[00:22:45] It always brings gender into it. Yeah. Oh, yeah. And with Buffy, you know, the dynamic where she is now kind of shifted into a more adult figure. We have a teenager, a young teenager, and then Buffy is now in college and she has accepted her role and duty as a slayer.

[00:23:03] And we get to see Dawn be a kid and Buffy talking about how, you know, Dawn gets to be a kid and sometimes she'd like to crawl up in mom's lap and not worry about the fate of the world. And I think it just does a great job really solidifying who Buffy is at this point in the show and who Dawn has to be in relation to her. I have a question based on your and my age difference.

[00:23:33] Was it exciting for you to have a character who is a little closer to your age? I was thrilled. I remember thinking that I was just like, oh my gosh, she's only two years older than me. Like, this is fantastic. And I loved Michelle Trachter. I was obsessed with Harriet the Spy when I was in like fourth or fifth grade. So seeing her on the show, this is when I became fully obsessed.

[00:24:01] I think it finally gave me someone closer in my age to relate to. And I think that's a big part of the reason why my memories of this season watching it for the first time are so vivid. That makes sense. She did enjoy me a little. I've always been older than most of the characters.

[00:24:23] So I identified with Willow mostly, but in very much of a like, I remember high school kind of a way instead of being like, this is what I'm going through in my life right now. It's just different. It's funny now because I've said this before, but now I identify so much with Joyce and Giles. I know. The adults. The adults. The adults. The grownups. The grownups. That's so funny. But Dawn, the whininess.

[00:24:52] And, you know, it's understandable why she's whiny. But I remember that getting to me a little bit. But I never hated Dawn or disliked her. I was like, well, she's a little sister. Yeah. I mean, she's a little whiny. But I always sort of had my own headcanon about why she was so sort of a little too childish for her age and a little whiny.

[00:25:19] And she was like, if you're Joyce and your older daughter is the slayer, you're going to baby the baby. Because you can. Because all of the babying you want to do to Buffy is just not, even as much as Buffy might sometimes want it, it's just not an easy thing anymore. Because Buffy is a superhero. And she can just baby Dawn all she wants. Yep. And Dawn just eats it up.

[00:25:49] Well, and the danger that that household has been put in because of Buffy, Dawn isn't a superhero. So Joyce would have to be incredibly worried about something happening to Dawn. Yeah, all the time. It would make complete sense. And it's just, gosh, it's a credit to the writing on this show, how seamlessly this edition is.

[00:26:14] And it makes perfect sense to me, too, that Dawn would kind of look up to Willow and that Tara would then have some empathy and identify with Dawn feeling like an outsider. It's just everything works so well. The crush on Xander? 100% I would have been the same if I were Dawn in that situation. Oh, yeah. Right? He's like an older guy who's pretty good looking, who's around the house a lot, being nice to you.

[00:26:44] Like, of course she has a crush. Actually, I love how she talks about how he actually sees her and treats everybody the same and, you know, doesn't look down on anyone. And it's kind of nice to see Xander from a fresh perspective because that's pretty true. Like, Xander is a lot of things, but there is not a pretentious bone in his body.

[00:27:10] There's, you know, there's nothing like that to him. And Dawn sees that and it makes complete sense. I do love that one part where she talks about how he sees her as a woman or treats her as a woman. Oh, and she's covered with ice cream. And ice cream. It's so cute. It's really adorable. And I would like to point out that Xander is doing the exact right thing that you do when an underage person has a crush on you. Yes. You treat them with distant kindness. Yes.

[00:27:40] And that is it. Any dude who is like, well, she came on to me even though she's seven years younger than me. Like, that's still your responsibility, dude. Does not matter. Like, if this were happening today, like, Xander would not be returning Dawn's text messages for the most part. Right. Or he'd be like, say hi to your sister for me. Bye. Exactly. He is handling it perfectly. He's just being like, you're cute. And like. Kid. Kid. Yeah.

[00:28:10] He's being very, very respectful. And I am there for it because I'm tired of the Xander who's like, every woman's sexuality belongs to me. Mm-hmm. I loved when Buffy was arguing with her mom and her mom's like, you have to stay home with Dawn. And she's like, I have to go out. And she's like, you want to, you need to like ruin my night so you can go out with Riley. And she's like, we're not going out. We're patrolling for a monster who killed a guy. And her mom's like, ugh. Like. Yeah.

[00:28:38] It's just so absurd. It's just like, she's like, I'm working. It's not. I'm not playing. It's not like we're going to the movies. Like. I just. I loved it. And the way Dawn is like. Joyce is like, I'm not having it. Like, you have to fix this. And Buffy's like, I'll get, you know, a suitable babysitter. The whole thing was so funny. And then the argument they have in Harmony's Cave. Where Dawn's like, I'm going to tell mom you slayed in front of me.

[00:29:06] And Buffy's like, I'm going to tell her you invited a vampire into the house. And they were like yelling at each other and sniping. And meh, meh, meh, meh. And then the second they're home, mom's like, how did it go? And they're like, fine. Yeah. It's like, fine, mom. Don't worry. It's fine. Like, neither one of them was going to rat out the other one. That was always the case. They just had to say it. Yeah. So. Like, they are such siblings. Yeah. And they look so much alike. It is wild to me. It's crazy.

[00:29:33] I saw if listeners, if you follow us on Facebook, Penny posted a photo, like a compilation of Joyce, Buffy, and Don, all of the actors. And it is crazy how much they really resemble each other. Yeah. Especially in their facial expressions. Yeah. They are completely believable as this trio of a family. Yeah. It's wild to me.

[00:30:00] So often when I'm watching a show, I get distracted because I'm like, there's no way that mom had that kid. Like, you just are like, that's not, there's no genetic possibility that would lead to that. Like, that doesn't make any sense at all. And in this case, it is like, is that her actual sister? Like, is that Sarah Michelle Gellar Jr.? What's happening? How did they do this? It is fantastic. It's so good. I've always thought Joyce and Buffy look a lot alike.

[00:30:27] And then to find a third who's also able to act, it's like, what? Like, blow my mind. Michelle, I feel like Sarah Michelle Gellar, her, we talk about the face, quote unquote, face acting so much. And I feel like her eyes are so expressive. And with Michelle Trachtenberg, it's her entire face gets into it. And it's just, it's really kind of delightful to watch.

[00:30:55] She has great body language as well. You know, with Sarah, we're always noticing the action parts of her when it comes to her physicality, which is fantastic. She's great with the fight scenes and the running and all that stuff. But I don't as often pay attention to her like sort of general body language. But now that Michelle Trachtenberg is on the show, and sometimes she mimics Buffy's body language, but it's always a little bit more awkward, a little bit more exaggerated, a little bit more gawky.

[00:31:25] And I, and that is in turn making me know to Sarah. And I'm like, oh, look at what they're both doing. Like, that is amazing. The contrast between them and the juxtaposition watching both of them in action. And it's just brilliant casting, brilliant writing, brilliant acting all the way around. It's all going, it's going great. I'm going to try not to gush too much this season because this is by far my favorite season of the show. And I think you had said it's yours. Yeah, it's mine too. Right.

[00:31:54] So, and it, it feels so Buffy. It just feels like the Buffy that I remember. It's really, for me, it is the peak of every single thing firing on all cylinders. We're getting all the things I love happening all at once. It's really fantastic. There is a very strong argument to be made that season three is the best Buffy season and that season two is the best Buffy season. But I am a very firm season five.

[00:32:23] Well, I feel like, and we haven't even talked about the spike or harmony of it all yet. Yeah, we'll get there. You know, like season five is going to be great for Spike. Yes, we get lots of Spikes this season and it's all interesting and fun. So let's just talk real quick about Giles 2.0. No, no, no, no, it's not working out. Giles, are you breaking up with your car? Well, it did seduce me. All red and sporty. Little two-door tramp.

[00:32:55] I don't know. I was so at a loose end that I found myself searching for some way of feeling more... Shallow? Perhaps, as I am to act as your watcher again, a modicum of respect might be in order. Do I have to? I'm serious, Buffy. There's going to be far less time for the sort of flighty, frivolous... Hey, there's Willow and Tara. Oh, I haven't seen my new car.

[00:33:24] That's so cute. I love that. It's such a great encapsulation of all of those relationships, right? Like Buffy and Giles and then like Dawn. Oh, there's Willow! Like just interrupting with no concern for the conversation happening. And then Giles being excited to show off his shiny new car is hilarious. It's precious. He's just trying to find his way in the world again. Yeah. Trying to, you know, reevaluate.

[00:33:52] I do love, too, the line. And, well, that's a bunch of thoughts my ADHD brain is braining. First, I love that the show has found a purpose for Giles again. Last season, you know, it makes sense. It made sense within the story that he, you know, Buffy didn't need him as much. Buffy was hanging around the initiative.

[00:34:17] Buffy had, you know, new role models and people she was looking up to. And now we're back to Giles being Buffy's watcher, her training with him again. But that one line when Buffy says, man, how bored were you last year? And he's like, I watched Pastions with Spike. Let us never speak of it. It's perfect. It's so good. Because that one line, it's like, oh, yeah, he was really having a rough time. He had a rough year.

[00:34:46] That was a rough year for him. And I agree. It's good that they came back and gave him something to do. If there was another year of him being like, I don't even know where I fit in anymore, it would have been so annoying. Sad. And good for him. His little red BMW makes it happy. Nothing wrong with the car. It's adorable. And you live in Southern California. Get a convertible. Right. But the magic shop thing is hilarious. The way that they're investigating the murder, right? And then he's like, hmm, these numbers. These numbers are really, these are good margins. Oh, out of state orders, mail delivery.

[00:35:17] He's so distracted from the murder. It's so funny. Because to them, a dead body from vampires is like, that's just Tuesday, whatever. But like, huh, here's a business. No wonder there's no difficulty attracting new owners. Like, oh, good foot traffic. Like, the whole thing kills me every time I watch it. It's so funny. And they're all like looking at him like, are you seriously considering this? Yeah. The absurdity of it. And what does Willow say after she falls over?

[00:35:46] She was like, I just tripped over Mr. Bogarty. Yeah. He's like, oh, hell. Yeah. And then Dawn being pushed out the door not to, you know, doesn't have to see these things gets an interesting interaction. What you doing? What are you doing here? Can't loiter. There's no loitering. That's why I'm a cat. Quiet. See, cat's in the cupboard.

[00:36:16] But they find you there anyway. And it hurts. Please make us stop. Shut up. Shut up. Shut up. Shut up. Shut up. Shh. I know you. Curds and weight. I know what you are. You don't belong.

[00:36:45] That is some classic babbling crazy person. And I know I'm not supposed to say crazy anymore, but I don't know what other word to use for that. I know. He terrifies Dawn. She's like really traumatized and shaken by this. And when Tara finds her, Tara sort of assumes she's shaken by the dead body. I don't think Dawn tells anyone about the guy who, like, what he said. Which is an interesting choice.

[00:37:13] Because I think, and I don't know what you, what your thoughts were when watching this episode, but my impression was she didn't tell anyone because she's worried he's right. There's something in her that feels like she doesn't belong, which, you know, for a 14 year old, that's also a pretty normal feeling, questioning who you are and where you fit in. Yeah, that's right on time developmentally.

[00:37:40] But there's a little bit extra that seems to be going on. I have been approached on many occasions at different ages by a person I don't know on the street spewing gibberish. And I tell everyone, because I'm like, you won't believe what just happened. Right? This was a weird experience. Yeah.

[00:38:10] Like, I don't know. I think I would have, I would have said something. Like, there was a guy, he said weird stuff, but it is really sweet the way Tara, like, sort of looks after her and sort of clocks right away. Like, Dawn is alone right now. I'm going to go. Tara has such good big sister vibes. Like, she's already such a naturally empathetic person.

[00:38:36] And being able to relate to Dawn and that feeling of not quite being part of the group is kind of sweet that she, she has someone. Yeah. But the one part with that interaction, when he tells her to kind of be quiet and he puts his finger to shush her, that is where I would lose it. Don't touch me. Don't touch my mouth, especially. Yeah, it's incredibly intimate and terrifying. I'm not doing that.

[00:39:04] I was just telling someone this story. The first time something like that happened to me that I can remember, I was about 10. I got separated from my family at a very crowded train station. And the rule in our family was, if you get separated, the kid stops. You stay where you are and the adults will find you. So I stopped and I stood where I was. And this very, very intoxicated, older, much older man came up to me and started talking to me in German.

[00:39:34] We were in Germany at the time. And my German was good enough to understand the gist of what he was saying, which was something about me coming to live with him and cook for him. Oh. And then he licked my face. Oh my God. Ugh. Yeah. And that was when I screamed bloody murder and my parents found me. Yeah. That's not a fun experience.

[00:40:02] And every time I watch this scene with Dawn, I think about it. I'm like, oh God, that guy who licked my face. Ugh. I mean, I was a little kid. That's terrifying. Yeah. Like, just like, yep. Nope. We don't need to do that. No touching. No invading space. There's no touching. I screamed. You'd be proud. I was very loud. That's good. Just like, holy crap. I can't imagine that happening. It was so disturbing.

[00:40:30] And he was definitely, like, very, very drunk. Like, the kind of drunk where it's like, I think I'm drunk now because I've shared air with you. Like, that kind of drunk. It was like, vaporized in the air through his pores. Yeah. It was deeply disgusting. That's fun. I wonder why I don't like crowds. I know. Crowds are awful. It was like, poor Dawn. Yeah. That's terrifying. And it is reasonable for Tara to also think she'd be upset about the dead person. Yeah.

[00:41:00] But I think at this point, for that type of thing, Dawn is just intrigued and wants to be involved. Yeah. It's not real to her just yet. We also see later when she's kidnapped by Harmony and the Harmony gang, she's actually pretty calm and collected through that whole experience. The guy on the street was way scarier than an actual vampire gang.

[00:41:26] I, the depiction of Hermione, Hermione, good Lord, Harmony in this is, it's one of my favorite things, especially, not really a spoiler, but obviously there's a big bad in every season and without saying much, this season's big bad is kind of terrifying, really. And having this episode with Harmony and her little gang of minions who happen to be,

[00:41:56] for the most part, guys she went to high school with, is one of my favorite things. And when Giles- It's so Harmony. What is that line? He says, like, what kind of evil creature- Oh, fancy tasteless statuary. Yes. And it cuts to Harmony with that- Toenails. With that unicorn. Oh, it's so great. And she's like, oh. Perfect. Somebody bought me the cutest little, got me the cutest little unicorn, because they didn't buy it.

[00:42:27] Thanks, Brad. I guess somebody is feeling bad about standing me up in the 10th grade. Like, the drama, the high school garbage drama that she brings into her evil gang. So fantastic. The scene where she runs into Spike and she's all like, and he's like, oh, it's so cute how puffed up you are. Classic. Classic both. And one of my favorite lines ever. Here we go. So Slayer, at last we meet. We've met Harmony, you half-wit.

[00:42:56] At last we meet. That's so good. Like, it's just so fun to watch them make a mockery of the stereotypical villain. Because, you know, there's the villain and they have their little gang of lackeys. And Harmony and those guys could not be more terrifying, like, less terrifying. Yeah, they are incompetent. They infight. They're more interested in, like, puffing themselves up and their status within the group.

[00:43:24] And like, oh my God. And my favorite, favorite, favorite moment is when she says, when they're all like, what's the plan? And she's like, okay, I've been studying all day. I skimmed a lot of book jackets. She remembered to pick me up the sweetest little unicorn, Brad. Guess someone was feeling guilty for standing me up in the 10th grade. I had to get her something. She sired me.

[00:43:54] Sire whipped. Anyway, the books you guys brought me to help with the plan? Well, I've been skimming through the book jackets all morning. And let me tell you, there's some pretty useful stuff in there. So, yes. Uh, sorry, forgot your name. Cyrus. Cyrus. Right, Peaches' friend. What's your question? Uh, when are we gonna do it? Ew, that's rude. I barely know you. And you're a minion. Oh, Harmony.

[00:44:24] I'm like, oh, you are really as dumb as dumb can be. Well, and the little note that they throw in to Buffy's house with the smiley face. Yeah. It's just, oh, it's so well done. And when Buffy's not home, the way she's like, but, but, but. It's like, she's supposed to be here. That was the whole plan. It's like, yeah, you forgot other people exist. Like, you, oh my God. She is so funny.

[00:44:50] I love Harmony so much because she's just so herself. She's like, she's like both a complete dumb blonde stereotype and also a complete original authentic version of herself. I don't know how she does that because usually I really don't like a dumb blonde stereotype character, but they imbued Harmony with some kind of magic pixie dust that makes me find her endlessly entertaining.

[00:45:18] She does a fantastic job and it seems so genuine. Yeah. But she's the only, she's only putting on airs when she's trying to pretend to be this villain. Everything else about her is just pure Harmony. And the way she and Spike play off of each other is so much fun to watch too. I love when she first sees him and she calls him Spiky and then corrects herself and she's

[00:45:47] like, Spike. Yeah. Like, oh, now he's in his place. You showed him. You did it, Harmony. And when she's like, it's okay. We used to go steady. There's just so much good stuff. That's why I was shocked when I saw how low this episode was rated on IMDB. We have great Scooby stuff. We have great Giles stuff. We have great Harmony and Spike stuff.

[00:46:16] Like, it's all what's not to love. Yeah, I don't, I don't get it because I think this episode is hilarious and. Well, spoiler stuff. We'll wait for Watcher's Diaries. The only thing I can think of is people's either distaste or confusion with Dawn leading to. I get the confusion, obviously. Yeah. It was confusing. I don't know. Have some faith. Like, see where it's going before you like freak out. I don't know. That's a thing. I'm like, okay, guys.

[00:46:45] Interestingly, you know, the title of the episode is Real Me and I have a lot to say about that in Watcher's Diaries. But Harmony also talks about people not knowing the real her. And I just thought that was interesting in this episode. And they do this a lot on the show where the main character has a conflict and then other characters will have sort of like, like, alternative universe versions of the same conflict.

[00:47:11] So in this case, it's Dawn feeling like nobody knows the real her or takes her seriously. And then Harmony. Nobody knows the real her or takes her seriously. Just a little light foil action there. They're very different people, except in that both of them feel like they're not taken seriously enough. Yeah. Which is true. Yeah. And can get really frustrating.

[00:47:34] Like, I'm sure that everyone has some situation or some experience where they can relate to where they felt like either people were misunderstanding them or diminishing them in some way. And watching both Dawn and Harmony go through it, it's insane to me that in a show about vampires, there are so many relatable characters and moments. Yeah.

[00:48:03] And then with Harmony, you know, we saw Spike put her down continuously when they were together. And we'll see more of them a little in the future. But it's, I don't know, it's, it's played for laughs a lot when it's Spike and Harmony. But there's some, you know, he's, he's really mean to her. I mean, he's really mean to her. It's intense.

[00:48:32] In season three, you know, she's like, I don't know why I let you be so mean to me. And she doesn't, we don't ever see her sort of answer that question. But in this episode, she sort of tries to take back her power. And Spike defeats her by simply being like, that's so cute. Yeah. So rude. Like, oh, it's the most condescending thing he could have said to her. Like, oh, look at you. You're so cute when you're trying to be tough. But he's not wrong. It is cute. It is. It is cute. Like, he's not wrong.

[00:49:03] The high school thing is kind of perfect. And the fact that when they show up to Buffy's house and, you know, Xander and Anya and Dawn are standing inside the front door, kind of taunting them about not being able to get in. And what's his name? Is it Brad? One of them is named Brad. Brad and Xander kind of taunts at him. He's like, shut up, Harris. It's just such a funny moment.

[00:49:30] My dad was watching it when I was rewatching it this morning. And he was just like, this show's kind of fun. Yeah. It's kind of funny. And I was like, yes, you can watch it with me if you want. I bet you'll like it. It's just the camp. And it's just executed so perfectly. So great. It makes me happy. Really, really great.

[00:49:55] One thing that didn't age so well was the sort of cheap joke about Willow and Tara. Just like. That was uncomfy. That was uncomfortable. It also implies that Joyce now knows that they're a couple. And last week she definitely did not. So did somebody tell her within. Yeah. Were they like, oh, actually they're gay mom. Like, I don't know. I have nothing about Joyce makes me think that she would actually be homophobic.

[00:50:25] Right. Like she see. And she works in the art world. I was going to say she. The first gay couple she knows. Has an art gallery in California. So. Like, I would think she would be more like. And also, I got to say, I have so many friends who have teenage daughters. Who constantly say, God, I hope she's a lesbian. I know. Like. The sort of just general like trials and tribulations of dating men. Yeah.

[00:50:53] Have my friends, women and men alike who have daughters being like, maybe she'll be a lesbian. Like they're so. So funny. That's what they want for their kid. Yeah. So. I don't know. I just don't think Joyce would have actually been uncomfortable with that idea. I mean, unless it was just her being uncomfortable with Dawn and sex at 14. Okay. Like that part. But it didn't feel like that. It was definitely a gay joke. And I didn't. I didn't. Can we not do that? Because I love Willow and Tara.

[00:51:23] And it's so. Everyone loves Willow and Tara. I know. There are so many sweet moments between them two. And I love in this, in this particular episode, when Tara is kind of, you know, talking about how she relates to Dawn and she knows what it feels like to be an outsider. And she's talking about how she doesn't know if she even wants to break into the Scooby group because they're so tight knit. And Willow coming up behind her and hugging her and kind of comforting her.

[00:51:51] It's just so sweet and refreshing to see, especially knowing this came out in 2000, like 26 years ago, seeing them as a couple and romantic. That was a big deal on TV. And I love how, you know, wholesome it is. It's natural. Yeah. In a way that most people can understand. Also, the. They're not hyper-sexualized or anything.

[00:52:19] After the initial coming out, the drama that exists in their relationship isn't about being gay. So many stories about gay characters, they're either the wacky sidekick, which a little bit Willow is, but that's whatever. Or they are, their life is defined by being gay in every arena. And it's the most important and most dramatic part of their life at all times. And it's the source of conflict.

[00:52:45] And it's just really nice to see a gay couple being, just being a couple and everybody being like, yeah, whatever. It's just, they're living their life. That's it. At the time when this was happening live, the fandom was talking about this constantly. And, you know, gay fans were thrilled over the moon about having an out gay couple and not

[00:53:15] having to like read a gay couple onto some subtle hints like Xena and Gabrielle. Or like Faith and Buffy. Yeah. But like an actual out gay couple being a couple on a major primetime TV show. Nice. Was huge. Yeah. I love them so much. Well, and it's nice that Dawn fits in with them. Can you imagine?

[00:53:43] Like they would be such great like aunties, big sisters to have around. And it makes complete sense that Dawn feels like she fits in and identifies with them more. Yeah. And it's just, and poor Anya trying so hard with all the board games she brings. Oh, whatever. She wins. It's so funny.

[00:54:09] I love when she said, she's talking about how she's now burdened with a husband and multiple children and more money than she can manage. And Xander's like, that means you're winning. And she asked if she could trade in the children for more money. I was like, yeah, that's, that's. There's Anya. That's the girl we know. Yeah. Like that's excellent. There she is. I played that stupid game. It's annoying. I don't blame her. No.

[00:54:35] And the highest salary, it was like fantastic if you got the 100,000 K. I mean, the game came out in like 1982. I know. So. And now I'm like, huh. That's just subsistence living. Yep. It's like, okay. Yeah. Life. Some like major news organization like Newsweek or one of those people just recently came out with like, what's the minimum salary?

[00:55:02] You need to live a decent life in different American cities.

[00:55:34] Oh, yeah. You need to have a one bedroom apartment. Yeah. By yourself. Like that's, that's luxury now. It's nuts. It's nuts. But alas. 2000 was such a different time. Oh, like we always say, I would like to go back to that. I know. The time before service. Oh, speaking of the year 2000, Dawn's bedroom decor. Oh, it's so colorful. It's beautiful. It's so happy.

[00:56:03] It sent me right back. It's like a Delia's catalog in there. Yes. It's like it threw up everywhere, but it makes me so happy. It was like if, if we, you know, on Angel episodes, we do Y2K moment of the week. If we had that on Buffy, it would absolutely be Dawn's bedroom. Yeah. And the fashion. I want to just have a shout out moment for Buffy's hoop earrings that are going to be very present all through season five. And they look so good on her.

[00:56:33] I don't know how they found the exact, I mean, I know how they did it, but like the exact proportion that is the best for her face. I always seem to, when I wear hoop earrings, they always seem to be too small or too big. I can never get them the right proportion, maybe because I don't look like Sarah Michelle Gellar, but they always look perfect on her. And they're delicate, but also powerful. And she's wearing like, in one scene, she's got that like halter top, denim skirt look. She just looks like a movie star all the time. It's so cute.

[00:57:03] Season five Buffy fashion is like peak. Yeah. It's some of the best fashion she's ever had. And her hair looks the best it's ever looked. And she just looks, she looks so good. So much. So beautiful. Well, and there's, I think there's even, what is it? There's like a lava lamp in the background of Dawn's room and a giant sunflower.

[00:57:28] My room at that time, I had a pink lava lamp as well. And I think my, the theme was basically stars and sunflowers. So I had. That sounds very Y2K. Very. So when it flashed to her room, I was just like, oh my God. It's like my room. I want to go back. Yeah. And I had, you know, the inflatable furniture. I didn't see any of that in Dawn's room. Yeah.

[00:57:58] Because it's ridiculous. It's ridiculous. And it wouldn't, it makes noise. The biggest reason is that it makes noise. They could not record sound if somebody was sitting on one of those inflatable chairs. So much noise. I was quite a bit older than you in 2000. So actually that was the year I lived in the East Village in the tiniest apartment that ever was tiny. And I literally had zero decoration on my walls and stuff. Cause I knew I was only going to live there for nine months. So I just, I never really moved in.

[00:58:26] I just lived with blank walls, which was fine. And that's fair. I was hardly ever home. You know, it's a different world than what I live in now where I'm home all the time. I love thinking about, maybe it's because I've been watching a lot of time travel alternate universe shows lately, but picturing like me in my, you know, sixth grade class ready for Buffy and you somewhere like in a law school class. I'm ready for Buffy. I'm ready for Buffy.

[00:58:56] Not knowing that in 26 years we'll be talking about it. It makes me happy. I never could have predicted this in a million years. Yeah. Such a good season. And this episode starts it off so perfectly. It really does. I think it's time for us to head on over to some pop culture and not pop culture references. First up, we have Dawn saying, I'm not going to Hogwarts.

[00:59:24] And Hogwarts, of course, is the school of witchcraft and wizardry from the very popular Harry Potter novels. At this time, I think that book came out the year before. Three came out that year. That sounds right. Because in fifth grade, I read the first book. I read the first two books that summer.

[00:59:51] And then the third book, I remember so clearly because I got it for Thanksgiving break and read it on the Amtrak. Oh, man. That's fun. Yeah. Riley says, not the invasion of Normandy, but still a plan. The invasion of Normandy, also known as D-Day, took place on June 6, 1944. This invasion was crucial to the Allies' victory in the European portion of World War II. Riley would totally say that, too. Yeah.

[01:00:21] It's a military reference. Yeah. And then, of course, the kind of crazy guy talking to Dawn says, I know you. So, curds and whey. I know what you are. You don't belong here. Curds and whey is a phrase from the Little Miss Muffet nursery rhyme. Little Miss Muffet sat on a tuffet eating her curds and whey.

[01:00:43] This gives a hint that Faith's Little Miss Muffet reference back in Graduation Day Part 2 may have referred to Dawn, along with counting down to 730 and Little Sister. And we'll talk about that later. Xander says, and ruffles have ridges. Ruffles are a potato chip brand made by Frito-Lay, known for their ridged cut.

[01:01:09] A marketing slogan for the brand was once, ruffles have ridges, with prolonged rolling of the R's. Ruffles are my favorite of the sort of like plain, unflavored potato chip. Especially if there's going to be dip. Yes. Because they're strong. It's so good. And then it gets in the little crevices. Yeah. Now I'm salivating. That's great.

[01:01:34] So, next up, Spike, on the book that Harmony is studying, says, What? Evil for Dummies? There is a whole range of For Dummies books published by IDG Books. They started off as technical computer manuals for the not-so-technically-minded, but have since spawned many general interests for dummies books, from allergies for dummies to yoga for dummies and even sex for dummies as well.

[01:02:02] As of yet, though, they have not published an Evil for Dummies. That'd be kind of fun. I don't think we need to give those people a manual. No. There are plenty. Yeah. They already wrote their own. Called Project 2025. Yeah, I was going to say. Buffy says, Most magic shop owners in Sunnydale have the life expectancy of a Spinal Tap drummer.

[01:02:28] The semi-fictional band Spinal Tap, portrayed in the 1984 movie This Is Spinal Tap, has lost drummers due to spontaneous combustion, asphyxiation, and a bizarre gardening accident. It is a running joke of the film. Hilarious. The drummers all die. There's a Spinal Tap 2. I have not seen it, though. There's a second one? Yeah, they made a second one recently. I didn't know that. And next up, Giles, of course, says he watched Passions with Spike. How bored were you last year?

[01:02:57] I watched Passions with Spike. That is never speak of it. Passions was a one-hour daily soap opera heavily targeted towards teenagers, and it was relatively new at the time, having only premiered in July of 1999 and was known for its far-out storylines, even by soap opera standards. And I think it aired until 2008. I never watched it. I didn't know it was a real show.

[01:03:27] I always thought it was a made-up show for Buffy, and I don't know why I thought that. But apparently. Because it's a ridiculous show. It sounded absurd. It was absurd. I remember wanting to watch it, but it was on in the daytime, and I had my full-time life. So it just never happened, and I had limited VHS space, and there you have it.

[01:03:53] At one point, Xander refers to Buffy's home as the Fortress of Solitude, which is the headquarters for Superman. It's also a very Xander reference. Yeah. Moving on to some trivia.

[01:04:31] Yeah. She definitely seems younger. She does seem a little young. Yeah. Before being cast, Trachtenberg, a fan of the show, had written a letter to JW that suggested how she could become a character on Buffy. The character of Dawn was also originally intended to have the power to speak to the dead, or to be able to move objects with her mind. Thank God these powers were later dropped. I know. I was like, that's a choice. Speak to the dead. Oh. Yeah. Oh, thank you.

[01:04:59] Although that reminds me, I've been watching Umbrella Academy lately, and one of the characters has that ability. Interesting. I do need to try that show. And next, David Fury says he was given a lot of freedom to develop Dawn, as her background was completely unknown. He set up her relationships with other characters, such as Willow's status as Dawn's favorite aunt, and provided additional backstory that, although not necessarily appearing in the finished script, infused her character in future episodes.

[01:05:29] I would love to just read his notes on what her backstory is. Yeah, I'd like to know all that stuff. That would be cool. In the scene with Buffy laughing about the idea of Harmony having minions, etc., JW was behind the camera trying to make Sarah Michelle Gellar laugh. Every time I see this particular scene of her laughing, I think about how she talked about hating laughing on camera because of how unnatural it seems.

[01:05:58] And this is when I was like, oh, okay, yeah. That just seemed a little, it takes me out of it a little bit. Yeah, it feels forced every time I watch it. It's not the best. She has a laugh in Ready or Not 2 that is a lot more natural feeling, but the character she plays in that movie is kind of a horrible phony person. So the fact that her laugh is a little evil and phony-ish works. It fits.

[01:06:28] It fits really well. She's like, ha ha ha ha ha, like that. Like it's, that's cute. That checks out. So I know the answer, but it's a segment on our podcast. So does it still slay? I think it absolutely still slays. And I think it deserves a higher rating than it currently has on IMDb. I think it's underrated. What about you? I think it slays.

[01:06:56] I think it slays more than I remember it slaying. I remember liking it and thinking it was an enjoyable episode, but watching it closely for the podcast, I was like, I've underrated this episode. This is better than I remember. So same thing with last week's Angel episode. Like I, it's better than I remember it. That is nice when that happens. I know because sometimes you watch a show that you used to like and you're like, oh, this is not as good as I. Yep. Like, oh, that doesn't hold up or holy hell. There's a lot of racist jokes in this show. Yeah. We're like, oh, plot hole.

[01:07:26] Oh, plot hole again. Oh, plot hole. Yeah. So it's, it's nice when, when it's better than you, when you think. Oh, man. No news this week. So we are going to head over to the bronze. Bronze things. Things of bronze. We only have a little bit of feedback, both from our good friend Piotr. He responded to the feedback post about this episode with just a little red car emoji, which is hilarious. Thank you for that.

[01:07:55] And he also sent us a voicemail. Hello, Slayers. Time is arbitrary and non-linear. So I thought since I already talk like a European vampire, I might still comment on the Dracula episode while addressing the launch of the season five in general. I must say, in this version, Vlad the Impaler looks a bit too young, too clean and too neat to me. His anemic physique isn't very formidable.

[01:08:23] It could be because he reminds me of that annoying guy I used to work with at a restaurant when I was in college. The old and mysterious creature I imagined Dracula to be was portrayed quite well in the 2024 movie Nosferatu. Watch it if you haven't yet. The scene with the Scoobies researching Dracula while eating donuts resembles a 90s sitcom. Could be because of the sofa and the bright lighting. Here's a little sample of what it would sound like.

[01:08:53] It's a jelly one. You want it? Got it. Got it. Well, I think we have Dracula factoids. Lucky name that's enough to fight the dark master. Beat her. A lot of it we already knew. Turnoffs, wood, fire, crosses, garlic, turn-ons, nice duds, minions, loans, low bites that last for days. Yeah, I did a little research too.

[01:09:23] Dracula likes to live in style, which means we can rule out the usual dumps vampires haunt. Ah! But he's smart enough to figure we probably already know that. I guess he's laying low. Actually, my research backs Riley up. Jack isn't the lay low type. So we can check out the nicer places. This is why this show is so successful. It has a taste of everything in it. Darkness, melodrama and sitcom make a great cocktail.

[01:09:52] This episode isn't really an odd one out because it sparks some of the themes present in the season. Buffy delving deeper into the nature of her power and the sister plot had to be introduced. It was done cleverly with a cliffhanger. Sister? What sister? It has an alternate reality written all over it. But no spoilers. The way Dawn speaks and writes in her diary is obscure enough to make the viewers wonder, wait, is she a demon or is it just a regular teenage posturing?

[01:10:22] Well played. Some meta humor in the episode made me think of what you discussed last time. The implication that Buffy can't resist Dracula because he's famous may have been an actual line Josh may have heard countless times. But he got away with a lot more because the guy is a genius.

[01:10:45] I think about other creators who sourced their stories from their own lives as if they tried to self-therapize. That is it for now. This season is going to spark some great discussions. I'm looking forward to it. Thank you. Oh my gosh. Thanks, Pio. That laugh track was amazing. And it makes me want an episode where there's a demon or some magic that is making a laugh track follow the characters around. Right. Like all the time.

[01:11:15] It reminds me of the, there's that one supernatural episode when we first meet the trickster. And Sam and Dean are kind of thrown into. Oh, the one when we're in the TV show. Yes. Changing channels. That's yes. That one. And they react to the laugh track. They can hear it in the, in the show. And they're like, what? What is going on? That show's brilliant. Oh, I really liked that episode. Any episode with the trickster. They're always great episodes of supernatural.

[01:11:45] Fantastic. Fantastic. I, I want to come back to something that Pio said, but in the spoiler section about, about the themes of the season. And he said something I meant to say, which is that I sort of alluded to this, but that we got a lot of Dawn, but no answers. Yeah. And they also teased us with stuff. Right. They're like, oh, she's going to be in for a big surprise. And like all that.

[01:12:15] Nobody knows the real me. And he's right. Cause the audience is like, oh, cause she's an evil demon underneath. Kind of like Kathy, the roommate. Remember Kathy? And, and then you're also like, or is she just a 14 year old? Right. Who's like, nobody knows the real me. I think I probably wrote that in my diary at 14. So.

[01:12:36] Um, if, and that's the thing, if she is some sort of, you know, master villain or witch that is, you know, has cast a spell on everyone, then she's a pretty damn convincing 14 year old girl. Yeah. You know, writing in her diary. Why would she write in a 14 year old's perspective if she was evil? Right. Like that's commitment to the bit. Yeah. If you're. Lots of questions. Yeah.

[01:13:06] A lot of questions. More questions than answers. Mm hmm. Thanks Piot. Please keep the voicemails coming. We love it. For sure. All right. That is the end of the main section of the podcast. Stay tuned for the Watchers Diaries if you want to hear some spoilery discussion. And if you'd like to join the conversation, you can find all of our contact information at podcastica.com and in the show notes for each episode.

[01:13:33] Also at podcastica.com, you'll find links to our social media pages and all of our other shows. So Kara, what are you watching, reading or listening to lately that has sparked you? Oh man. I, so I talked a little bit about watching the men in the high castle. And I think I mentioned watching for all mankind, which as you know, I finished this morning and entirely caught up.

[01:13:58] So I started a new show a couple of days ago that came out in, I think it was 2016 ish called Timeless, which is another time traveling show that deals a lot with different historical episodes. And I'm obsessed with it. I have watched all 10 episodes. No, 11 episodes of the first season.

[01:14:28] And I cannot get enough of it. That and Widow's Bay are what is sustaining me right now. What about you? That is good stuff. I am continuing to enjoy Star City, which is the grim Soviet counterpart to For All Mankind. And Vampire Lestat. There's been two episodes of this, which is kind of the third season of Interview with a Vampire,

[01:14:58] but also kind of its own show. And it is so fun and chaotic and stylish and crazy and cool. And the music is good. And the production values are amazing. And I love it. I was late to the party on Interview with a Vampire when it came out. I just, I didn't watch it when it first came out. And I caught up on it recently. And in time for Vampire Lestat to start. And I'm so glad I did.

[01:15:26] Because I'm really, really into it. And it's interesting. I was thinking about how we've got this voiceover duration in this episode. Vampire Lestat and Interview with a Vampire are like a master class in using voiceover. That's true. To good effect. And it has the unreliable narrator situation attached to the voiceover, which we didn't really get in this case. But it's like the inception of unreliable narrators.

[01:15:55] Because you get somebody's story about someone else telling a story about someone else telling a story. And it's like this Matryoshka nesting doll version of what really happened. And I was listening to the Lorehounds podcast about it. And they were like, wait, are the black and white scenes the ones we can believe? Like it's hard to know what's real, what's not. But it's in the most delightful way. So I imagine we have listeners who would enjoy that show if they're not already watching it. It's a lot of fun.

[01:16:25] I can't wait. That might be my evening shows, watching the first two episodes. You're going to want to watch them more than once. Because when you get to the end of it, you'll be like, oh, wait. Wait, was that? And then you're going to want to go back and watch it again. I love it when shows do that. Yeah. It's so nice to find a good show. And listeners, if there's anything that you are currently into, I would love to know. Yeah, definitely. Drop us a line. I have been adding new shows to my list constantly.

[01:16:54] You really should watch Umbrella Academy. Yeah. There is a lot of time travel, actually. I love that. That type of thing. And even if it's a bad show, I am such a sucker for time travel. I like time travel stories, too. It's just that anything apocalyptic. That's why The Man in the High Castle was still one. Yeah, there's several apocalypses, too, in Umbrella Academy. All right. I'm going to watch it. Okay. Good to know.

[01:17:22] And Found Family, except they're sort of forced Found Family. Hmm. Yeah. There's nothing about the show I can think of that you would not like, actually. Sweet. Yeah, I might have to do that. I'll walk on the treadmill, so it's a trade-off while I watch it. And, of course, if you like what we do here, please give us a five-star rating, a review, or a like, follow, and subscribe. And tune in next time when we'll be covering Angel Season 2, Episode 3, First Impressions. Thanks, everyone.

[01:17:52] And... Have you ever run a store before? I was a librarian for years. This is exactly the same, except people pay for the things they don't return. Aw, Giles. All right. That's the end of the non-spoiler section. So if you want to avoid spoilers, you should stop listening right now. Mm-hmm. It's too bad we can't sneak a look at the Watcher Diaries and read up on Angel. I'm sure it's full of fun facts to know and tell. Yeah.

[01:18:21] That's too bad. That stuff is private. But also, Giles keeps them in his office, in his personal files. Most importantly, it would be wrong. First, I was thinking about how Harmony is kind of a foil for Dawn in this particular episode.

[01:18:46] But then I started thinking about how the real me is the theme for the entire season. Oh, gosh, yeah. First, there's Buffy being like, I don't know where the Slayer ends and I begin. I don't know. I need to know more about the origins and my power. I need to delve deep into my identity as the Slayer. Then there's Dawn. We don't know who she is or where she came from. Big identity issues. And then when she finds out who she is and where she comes from, she's going to have even more identity issues. Yeah.

[01:19:12] Then next episode, Xander's going to go through it with his doppelganger. And he's going to be like, you know, that's who is this demon who's taken over my life? But it's like him. And he's going to be really facing like dealing with what he's dealing with. And Buffy's going to be dealing with that with Riley where she's like, would you rather I was like half a Buffy? And he's like, no, I love the whole Buffy. There's a little bit with Riley of him being like, who am I when I'm not a soldier? That's true. And then we also deal with it with Spike.

[01:19:42] Who am I when I've been chipped? Am I a vampire? Am I not a vampire? Like, who am I meant to be? Who can I be? What does this mean for the future? Then there's Tara hiding her supposed demon blood from everyone. Right. We don't know because at this point we don't know why she like. Blew up that spell that Willow did last season. We don't know any of that.

[01:20:06] And then, of course, the ultimate identity issue is Glory and Ben, who I hear there's a connection between them. I don't know something. Glory, Ben. I don't know. There's some kind of connection there. Interesting. They both are dealing with deep identity issues because they're like forced to share a body. And and also like she's a god, but she looks like a human and he's like just trying to be a dude.

[01:20:27] And then at the very end of the season, when Giles kills Ben, the speech that he gives Ben is like about who Buffy is at her core and her identity as a hero. And she's not a murderer, but he could he can murder him, but not Buffy because Buffy's a hero. And then finally, people when Buffy sacrifices herself to save Dawn, she talks about how Dawn is her, a part of her identity made from her.

[01:20:56] And and that this is what she was born for. And it's she finally understands it. And the whole season is like, who is the real me? I love it. True. Well, and it's even, you know, you talk about Giles trying to figure out who he is now in a new venture with the magic shop. Same thing with Anya trying to see, OK, now I'm like, I am a human. How am I going to adapt to this life? What am I going to do? At one point, she's like, I'm an American. I love that.

[01:21:27] Anya. Oh, God. There are some fantastic Anya moments in this season. I'm so glad they added her. But it's it's true. Like and I don't think that's a coincidence either that all of each of these characters are struggling with that. The writing in this season is so tight and tied up and well executed that it just. Oh, it works. And it's not out over it.

[01:21:54] They don't hit you over the head about it because I don't think another character at any point is going to. Utter the phrase real me. Right. They just let it all unfold and they just happen to be thematically connected. A lesser show would be like, wow, I sure am wrestling with identity issues just like you did. They would just be spelling it out. Fear the Walking Dead would be like, remember? Oh, my God. There was a doppelganger of me.

[01:22:22] That really, really messed with my head about who I am as a person. Like they would just say it. Oh, that's funny. I can't. Oh, and yes. Spike, I said about how the chip has changed him. And he confronts this in the episode that Drusilla's in. I love that episode. So good. Such a good episode. But it's just everything with Dawn is so interesting.

[01:22:44] The fact that we find out, you know, when we ultimately find out that she's the key and how, you know, she was essentially forged by mugs. And it's so much fun to go back and rewatch this episode with all of that knowledge. Yeah. And even going back to, you know, Restless and Graduation Day, parts one and two, and the hints that are sprinkled throughout about Dawn.

[01:23:13] It's so nice when a show clearly has a storyline planned out and they execute it pretty much perfectly. Yeah. By sprinkling things in. And speaking of Interview with a Vampire and Vampire Lestat, they do this constantly. There are things paying off in Vampire Lestat that they sprinkled in season one and two of Interview with a Vampire. It's like, oh, they knew they were going to do this. Delicious. Like, it's so fun.

[01:23:40] Somebody asked me about the, who hadn't seen the show yet, Interview or Lestat, about the adaptation because they, like me, were very unhappy with the Mayfair Witches adaptation. Oh, yeah. And I said I thought that the changes they made from the book were for the most part improvements, modernizations, and enrichments of the characters. I think that they got the spirit of the characters all dead on.

[01:24:09] I think the casting is excellent. And I think the vibe of it is very true to the books. But there are things in the books that were really dated that just needed to be updated. They added some race, like some characters of different races to make that work a little bit better. I'm not on board with 100% of the changes they made from the books. But, like, I think that overall that adaptation has been very true to who Anne Rice was and who these characters are. That's nice to know.

[01:24:39] Because I, gosh, my mom read all the books. And I think I remember it was when I was growing up and she would listen to them on audio. So that is the memory I have of the books. It's like bits and pieces. That's funny. And I feel like I should reread them. They're long. You have to really want to do it. But I never read all of them.

[01:25:04] I think I stopped at Body Thief, which is book four or five. Well, it's nice to know that the show kind of captures the soul of the books. Yeah. That sounds amazing. It really does. I really think it does. I'd love to hear from listeners if any of you have a different take on that. Because also our friends over at Pirate Corps have a podcast about, I think it's called Vampcast. And also I like the Lorehounds. I've been listening to them.

[01:25:34] In this episode, there are so many things that tie in to, you know, Restless or Graduation Day and for the future of the season. I think we could have a whole entire episode just talking about the foreshadowing that's involved in this. And everything pays off. Everything. I love the first time watching it. I remember that Kurds and Whey.

[01:26:03] And going over that, I was like, where have I heard that before? That sounds so familiar. And, you know, I don't know if I didn't use Google. And, well, I did a little bit. But not a lot. In 1999 or 2000. So when it eventually. You probably used Ask Jeeves. Oh, yeah. I used Ask Jeeves all the time. And I think I would even start as Mr. Jeeves. Oh, that's adorable. Ask the question.

[01:26:34] Oh, gosh. The internet pre-2000. It was a different place. Yeah. Google was like sort of new and edgy. Right. Like I heard about it only because my brother. I was using like Yahoo. And my brother, who is like a tech extraordinaire, was in grad school for engineering. So he was like always hip to whatever was the new tech thing. That's cool. And he was like, no, you should be using Google. They have a much better algorithm.

[01:27:03] And I was like, I only barely know what an algorithm is. But I trust you that it's better. And so I started using it. And I was like, oh, this is better than Yahoo. It's like, oh, that does work. And then Google became a verb. Yep. And we're here today. But everything, the way everything ties in, like the Little Miss Muffet and the 730 countdown representing the number of days between season three and like Dawn's introduction, which

[01:27:33] is insane. It's wild that they had that planned out so far in advance. Taylor Swift Easter egg type planning. But everything and the warning and what is it? Is it Tara? No, it's Faith that says Little Sis is coming. Yeah. But at the time, we thought she was kind of referring to herself. Right.

[01:27:59] We're like, OK, that's a weird way to frame Faith. But it's a dream. So whatever. That's the thing. They can get away with all this stuff because it's in a dream. Tara's line is be back before dawn. Right. And there are multiple mentions of Dawn, like just using the word or something cryptic at the end of season four. And it makes me like season four more. Yeah, it does. You know?

[01:28:25] I always, always, always think about the episode Tabula Rasa and how Buffy and Dawn don't know their names. And Dawn is wearing a Dawn necklace and she pronounces it Unad. It's so good. It cracks me up every time. That might be in my top three episodes of this show. That is so funny. I love that episode. It's really good. Randy Giles. Might as well call me Randy Giles.

[01:28:55] That'll be fun. You guys, I think I'm like a superhero or something. I'm Anya. Oh, I can't wait. It was such a good one. It's such a great episode. We're going to laugh our butts off when we podcast about it. Oh gosh. But it's just, it says a lot that Michelle Trachtenberg and Dawn fit in so seamlessly in this show. And I cannot wait to talk about the rest.

[01:29:25] When I was making my notes, I was like, I don't need to talk about that yet. We'll get there. But there's so much that this episode really does tie into, like you were saying, thematically with the rest of the season. I'm sure we're going to reference it. Yeah, a lot. Multiple times. I was also thinking about how I kind of miss episodic TV. So when Buffy was first airing, I remember having conversations with people. They'd be like, oh, what's that show about? And I'd be like, oh, well, it's what it sounds like.

[01:29:55] It's a girl who kills vampires. But it's really different because there's every season has an overarching story. And there's a main villain. Because at the time, almost everything was week to week. Episodes were more or less standalone. X-Files was groundbreaking because it had a mythology that you had to like piece together that they were making up as they went along. Whereas in this one, it seems a lot more thought out.

[01:30:20] But it was different because you could have, when you had a 22 episode season and you had a more of a episodic way of going about things, even with an overarching story, it meant you could have these episodes that were not pure plot movers. And that could be a special, different episode. And you could try something that didn't move the plot in a big way. Like this one where it's like, let's just have a diversion where we follow Dawn a little bit.

[01:30:49] Or like the Zeppo, let's have an episode where we just find out more about Xander and his growth. And I was thinking about Ted Lasso in the third season of Ted Lasso. The show was originally picked up for, I don't know, 10 episodes. And then it was such a huge hit that the studio came back and was like, do 12. And so they added two more episodes into the season, but they had already plotted out all of the major plot points on the 10 episodes.

[01:31:16] So you ended up with the Christmas episode and the beard after hours episode, which are kind of standalone-ish. Yeah. And you can tell once you know it, you're like, yeah, because those are like, they're sort of like snapshots in time. Huh. And I love those two episodes. I have a friend who's like, I hate those episodes. They don't move the plot forward. And I'm like, that's exactly why I love them.

[01:31:42] A lot of people don't like that type of, like filler episodes now get a bad rap. But it's my favorite episodes. Because you get things that are a little experimental or a little off the beaten path and you get to play a little bit. And I feel like most prestige TV is so tightly plotted and so like trying to fit so much story into a short episode run. Like I was thinking about how House of the Dragon, like they have to pick up with episode

[01:32:09] one of season three immediately where season two left off. There's none of this like, let's reintroduce the characters. Let's see where everybody was all summer. Like none of that stuff. Right? There's no beach football games on House of the Dragons. They pick up right where they left off. There's no episode where one character is the whole focus for a while. And like, it's just, it's a very different way of creating TV or any kind of series.

[01:32:37] And I, sometimes I miss it. Like I love House of the Dragon. I love these tightly scripted like prestige TV shows. I think they're great. But I also kind of miss having these like weird one-off, like kind of like trying something different episodes. Like we lose some of the creativity and the fun. And the, yeah, the whimsy. Yeah. I enjoy some whimsy. Maybe that's why so many people who love Buffy also happen to love Supernatural. Very similar.

[01:33:07] Because that's another show that, you know, because of the time it came out, it was 22 episode seasons were normal and you had a lot of TV to make. And they did a lot of standalones that were like. And they're great. Like some of the greatest episodes of the show are standalones or bottle episodes. Yeah. And it's true. I do miss that. Eric Kripke created Supernatural and then he created the boys.

[01:33:36] And Supernatural has these occasional episodes that are like, like the episode where the genie casts the wish spell on Dean and he spends the whole episode in an alternate universe. That doesn't drive the plot forward at all. It's good for character development, but there's no plot attachment to it at all. You could skip the episode entirely and it'd be fine. But I love that episode. When the boys, on the other hand, had like a 10 episode or eight episode seasons, there

[01:34:03] was no time for any diversions. If there was a diversion thing, it was like five minutes in an episode. It was not a full episode. There's one episode where some of it is from the perspective of the dog. And I was like, what's happening? What's going on? I'm so confused because they don't do that on that show. They don't have time for it. It doesn't happen here. And it was only part, it was like 10 minutes of the whole episode. And I was like, whoa, that's a difference. Like, yeah. I don't know.

[01:34:29] I just, I think that we've gained a lot and lost a lot in terms of the way that the entertainment landscape has changed with streaming and everything. It's fascinating. It is. If I was in film school, I would write about it. That would be cool. Because it is. I'll just podcast about it. Yeah. That works out. I think all of my other notes are just going way too far into the season. Yeah. Let's call it. Pretty much. All right.

[01:34:56] We have decided that is the complete end of our show. Thanks for listening, everyone. And until next time, I will continue being Penny. And I, as always, am Kara. Keep slaying.

[01:35:40] Have you ever wondered why Reese Witherspoon founded Hello Sunshine? Or where Kevin O'Leary got his start? Or even how Alex Earle became the most accessible founder to someone who may not even consider this space? Enter the Founder Mindset, a new podcast from Harvard Business School Foundry, hosted by me, Reza Satchu. As a leading educator in entrepreneurship, I've built multiple high-profile companies and mentored

[01:36:06] thousands of students and founders through the realities of starting and scaling ventures. And with the Founder Mindset, I'm sharing those lessons with you by sitting down with world-class entrepreneurs, including Witherspoon, O'Leary, Anne Earl, plus Tim Ferriss, and many more to break down exactly how they commit, decide, and build for impact. These aren't surface-level interviews. Each episode, I challenge my guests to revisit their toughest moments, their boldest decisions,

[01:36:34] and the mindset that carried them through. Follow the Founder Mindset wherever you get your podcasts. From artificial intelligence to the gig economy to global volatility, the economy is changing at a dizzying pace. Enter the Managing the Future of Work podcast, the chart-topping and critically acclaimed podcast from Harvard Business School, hosted by me, Bill Kerr, and my Managing the Future of Work Project co-chair, Joe Fuller.

[01:37:04] This show explores technology trends, demographic changes, the rise of the care economy, and many other forces transforming the landscape of work. We'll highlight the insights of business leaders, technologists, and experts like Business Roundtable's Kristen Silberg on corporate workforce strategy, and Khan Academy founder Sal Khan on AI, education, and the future of work.

[01:37:29] With more than 2.5 million downloads and close to 300 episodes, there is something for everyone. Follow HBS Managing the Future of Work on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you're listening now.