83: Angel S2E3 “First Impressions”

[00:00:12] and a Buffy-verse podcast, Podcastica, and a Buffy-verse podcast, Podcastica, and a Buffy-verse podcast. Can I? It's how you live your life. You don't just face danger, you create it. You're on a self-destruct mission unless you get some help.

[00:00:41] I ain't buying none of this Dionne Warwick crap. You know it's true. You need some serious saving. Looks like I've got my work cut out for me. Was that right? Better just plan on having me in your life for a while. At least until you find some peace. Could be a while. Helping people, that's what me and my friends do.

[00:01:34] Welcome to Still Slaying, a Buffyverse podcast. I'm Penny. And I'm Kara. For this episode, we're going to be discussing Season 2, Episode 3 of Angel, titled First Impressions, written by Sean Ryan and Mayor Smith and directed by James A. Contner. This episode originally aired on October 10, 2000 to an audience of 3.2 million households.

[00:01:59] And some alternative titles in other languages for this episode were The Hour of the Divock in German and simply Divock in Italian. All right. Straightforward. Yeah, that's fun. So did you have a Y2K moment of the week this week? I did. And it's because it is one thing that I actually remembered from watching this episode live. Okay, what's that?

[00:02:27] I was obsessed with Cordelia's white cream sweater that she's wearing and the bandana in her hair on her party. I think I was 12 when this came out. And I searched for a sweater like that and I wore a bandana in my hair all winter because of this outfit in this episode.

[00:02:55] I had already become obsessed with this outfit because Buffy wore a very similar sweater and I found a sweater like that and I wore that sweater until it like fell off my body. I loved it so much. There's a, the J.Crew roll neck sweater. Oh yeah. Is like that and I bought one last year and I was like, it's my Cordy sweater. I found another one. Those J.Crew roll neck sweaters are iconic and timeless.

[00:03:25] I had a, a wool one that I wore for like two years solid all winter long. Just like cozy, cozy, cozy. Oh, there's nothing better than a good sweater. Unfortunately, where I live, there's not a lot of opportunities to wear a sweater like that unless I keep my house at like 66 degrees. Yeah. That's a little ridiculous. Yep. So yeah. Living in New England, sweater weather is most of the year. Sweater weather. Sweater weather. Yeah.

[00:03:55] That's wonderful. So for my Y2K flashback, I have a sound clip. Nice. Because I thought that this one conversation would be so, so different if it happened in 2026. Are you friends with like every criminal in town? See, there you go assuming those brothers are criminals. Aren't they? You mean like your friend David Nabbit? You think you became a billionaire by being a good citizen? Actually, he did. He made his first millions developing software that lets blind people surf the web.

[00:04:25] Plus, he set up a foundation that donates $20 million a year to countless charitable causes. Yeah, well, you let me know when some of that coin trickles down to these parts. Yeah. The depiction of a benevolent multimillionaire, benevolent billionaire is becoming scarcer and scarcer in media.

[00:04:48] Even Batman is starting to get like people being like, hey, Batman, why don't you take care of some poverty stuff instead of like beaten up on street criminals? You know? Yeah. Like maybe there wouldn't be so many purse snatchers if Gotham City had better infrastructure. And I just don't think that they would have cast like a benevolent rich person as a character. But I was thinking about it. You know, first I was like, well, this is the eat the rich era.

[00:05:18] We wouldn't do that now. And then I was thinking about it. 2000, when this aired, was the absolute high watermark of the dot-com bubble. Yeah. And there were overnight millionaires happening constantly. It was in the news. Every time another dot-com would go public, you would hear about how everyone at the company from the founder, CEO to the person in the mailroom became a millionaire overnight. It was just like in the zeitgeist.

[00:05:43] And I was in law school practicing to go, you know, studying to go into a career in tech. You know, I was pretty sure I wanted to go down the intellectual property route. And I had just spent the summer at a big law firm that was like very tech focused. And you were right in it. I was right in it. And the bubble was so high.

[00:06:07] The running joke at the law school was that law firms that did like tech law or like, you know, IPO finance type stuff were just standing on the corner outside the law school handing out job offers. Because there was so much work for lawyers that like first and second year lawyers were closing major merger deals because there was just so much work. That's crazy. And so the boom was still happening in like 2001.

[00:06:35] Into 2002, it started to like taper off pretty dramatically. And by 2003, law firms were laying people off left and right. God. So this was the height of it. This was when like overnight millionaires on software was a thing. That makes sense. Now, would surfing the web for blind people software turn someone into a billionaire? No. Also, the idea that like, you know, somebody makes tons of money, whatever.

[00:07:04] And then, but they give, they have a, you know, charitable foundation and they give money to these good causes. First of all, it's usually such a small fraction of the amount of money that they have that it's not a meaningful amount. Like, it doesn't make a dent. Right. Like you think like, oh, well, he gave a million dollars to this charity, but he has a billion dollars. That's like 1%. You know, it's a tiny, it's like if I gave like $25 to a charity. Unfortunately, everybody knows, like, we listen to this podcast, you know I like Taylor Swift. Yeah.

[00:07:33] But it is a drop in the bucket for her to give $100,000 to a GoFundMe or a million dollars. That's basically a rounding error in her life. Exactly. And then there's also that a lot of times these things that are, you know, presented as charitable and they get great PR for it, further a political agenda that the billionaires have.

[00:08:00] So around this time, there was like a sort of battle going on for the hearts and minds of the education market for computers. And it was, it was Windows versus Apple. And Apple had a really strong foothold in schools. Everybody, when I was in college in the early 90s, like almost everybody had a Mac. And Bill Gates got sort of annoyed about this.

[00:08:26] And he just started giving free PCs to schools. And he got lots of good press about it. Like, look, he's funding education and it's, you know, it's all charity. He's not getting anything back. No, he's making sure that the next generation of customers are all PC users and not Apple users. It's competition. Not charity. It didn't quite work out. No. At least in schools. But he didn't lose-lose. He's strategic. Yeah. So I, I don't know.

[00:08:54] David Nabbit is adorable and I love him. But this presentation of this like benevolent, charitable, billionaire character is very dated. Yeah. I thought for a second too, you were going to go with the pointing at thinking everyone's a criminal. Because when Cordy said, like, when they finally find the car again, she's like, can't you just hotwire it? I was like, why do you think Gunn knows how to hotwire a car? Yeah. Like that moment, I was like, eh.

[00:09:22] And I did like though that dialogue in the show, he was like, just because I know some car thieves doesn't mean I am one. Yeah. Come on, Cordy. I, I, I had that in my later notes, but like. Oh yeah. Everything about, we might as well just dive into it. So we're in the main discussion now. Everything about the party and the things that went down at the party, there were so many things about it that I found troubling.

[00:09:47] Like, so first we, we walk in there after Cordy and Gunn have their little snark fest on the front steps. And, and we look around the party and Cordelia is like, oh, I don't blend. I better just be meek. Okay. Okay. You don't blend. But also what we, they showed us, I was like, that looks like a normal party. Like just cause like there's a rip in that sofa and most of these people are black people. It doesn't look that different from parties that I went to when I was that age. Like now my parties look a little different.

[00:10:15] Now my parties are like middle-aged people and everybody has nice furniture. But like in my twenties, I went to a lot of rip sofa parties where people were just like, my brother used to throw these amazing parties where he and his roommates would just take all the furniture in the house and put it in one bedroom. Turn off all the lights and have a keg. And they'd be like, party. And I remember I was like, you have to have food. You have to have food at your party to my brother. And so then I went to the party and they had one bag of chips. Oh my gosh.

[00:10:45] And he's like, look, Penny, food. Food. It did it. That's like a TV episode. I was like, you guys are such dudes. But they were fun parties. Like cause everybody would dance and no one worried about like ruining anybody's stuff. Yeah. Cause it was like a big, it was like basically an empty apartment. They were really fun parties. Yeah. Like she's young. What does she expect? And we know she's materialistic. Yeah. But still like, she can't have never been to like.

[00:11:15] And the way she was babbling when she met Gunn's friend. Oh yeah. It was so crazy. I was like recoiling. Yeah. Watching it. It was one of those things where I've been in that situation though, where I'm like, why am I still talking? I should stop talking. No more word vomit. Stop talking. Um, and it's hard to get yourself out of it, but it was also just like, she seemed so aware

[00:11:41] of, of everyone around her being black, which of course you would be, but like, I don't know. It just didn't age well. Cordelia. It seemed like they were like, she would like, she overreacted. Yeah. Um, I will say that the two guys that she was reacting to that Gunn greeted were dressed like gang members from central casting. I was like, that is so like LA nineties gang member outfits that I saw in all those movies.

[00:12:11] This whole episode felt very of its time. Yeah. It really did. A little extra more than normal. It's like, oh yeah. Yeah. Otherwise this episode is amazing for Cordy. I'm upset that they made her a little racist because I loved that they made her like, she had a- She was brave. She was so brave. She was afraid. She was like, I'm going to die. And she just went right away anyway, like barely a hesitation.

[00:12:37] She ran straight into what she thought was danger to try to save Gunn. And then again, when they were facing Divac, she ran straight at it. And also when, uh, what's her name got hurt, uh, at the party. Oh yeah. She jumped right in. She jumped right in fearlessly, competently, calmly. Saved her life. Knew what she was doing. Like first aid, like followed her to the hospital, told the doctors, the doctors like, she probably saved your friend's life. Like that was such an awesome moment for Cordelia.

[00:13:06] Like, like she just sprang into competent action immediately. And I'm so there for that. But she's also was like, Gunn, you can, you know, be mean to me or whatever. But if saving you is my mission, I'm going to keep doing it. Like that's- She's like, you're one of my people now. Yeah. Basically. Too bad. And I was like, aw, she adopted Gunn basically. She's like, you're ours. I'm going to, I'm going to take care of you whether you like it or not. And he sort of is like charmed by that by the end. But-

[00:13:36] I love their back and forth. Yeah. They had so much snarky, snippy, like bickering, like, and he says some really mean stuff to her. So it starts, he shows up at the hotel, right? And he's like, where's Angel? Like, he's just, whatever. He starts right off the bat being hostile. And she's like, you can say hello, you know? And he's like, I'm not looking for, what do you call it? C-3PO and stick figure Barbie. Yeah. Like, damn. That is mean.

[00:14:03] Well, with Wesley, I was like, yeah, that's kind of- I mean, he is British and thin. Yeah. I was like, okay, that one I like, but stick figure Barbie. I was like, rude. It's rude. It's really rude. And he was just, he was like hostile. And he was, then he was hostile with Angel. And then he was, he was a bully to Jameel. And, and, you know, Courtney, like several times was like, you could try being not a jerk. Like, you know, but even before she's got the vision about him.

[00:14:31] She's like, what is your deal? Yeah. Poor Gun. Yeah. I mean, we see by the end, you know, by the hospital scene when Gunn is like, actually, I have it. Um, oh, good. She almost died. But she didn't. No thanks to me. It's not your fault. I let my guard down and she's the one-

[00:15:00] The vamp was coming after me, not her. Take it easy. I can't take it easy. I can never take it easy. Not for a second, all right? The minute I forget that, somebody like Alana pays the price. Alana. I can't stop. Can't ever stop.

[00:15:23] So we know now that he is haunted by his sister's death. That's Alana, in case people forgot. And this can't stop can never stop. That is just burnout, crash and burn waiting to happen.

[00:15:50] And he's, he's so lucky that he said that in front of Cordelia, that she now sees it and is on a mission to help him. Because as much as Cordelia can be kind of mean sometimes, she gets stuff done that she wants to get done. She, she is, uh, effective. Want her on her, on your side. Yeah. I would want her to be my champion. So he's lucky. He's very lucky. And, um, it's just so tragic. Because, like, he did lose his sister.

[00:16:20] And he feels really super guilty about it. Yeah. And I don't blame him. Well, and it's like he has the weight of his neighborhood on him. Like, trying to save everyone and protect everyone. And take personal responsibility for it when you can't. Like, that is a recipe for disaster. Yeah. And it's just, it's so, it's tragic. His background really is tragic. And I just, God, I love Gunn. I love the introduction of him.

[00:16:50] And he, you know, he comes a long way. But there are lots of bumps in the road, too. Yeah. That we'll see. And it's nice that he has the team. Yeah. Now. He's got some people around him that care about him. And Cordy is basically, I love her attitude. She's just like, I don't care. You know, you do whatever you want. You're ours now. And I'm going to look out for you. Yeah. And I don't know how often Gunn has heard that from anybody. You know?

[00:17:19] He never lets anybody look out for him. Like. Even when Angel tried to help him, he was like, I don't need help from you. Some middle-aged white guy who's dead. Like. Which is funny. Yeah. It's still funny. That will always be funny. But he's. You know, I think people who have been let down over and over and over again by authority figures by the system, by society, who have had major losses at a young age like he has. I mean, how old could he possibly be? What is he? 20? 21?

[00:17:49] He's. Yeah. He's. Maybe he's 23. And he lost his sister recently. And he has learned the hard way that you don't rely on anybody. Ever. And like, even when he sees like one of his guys at that party. And he's like, oh, you thought you could party? Like, he's like, I have to ride these people. I have to micromanage them every minute of every day to keep them alive. That is. That is a lot of pressure. Yeah.

[00:18:18] And he even was like, when they visited the first car thief guy, he was like, these look like neighborhood cars. I told you not to rob from the neighborhood and that you can go to Brentwood and steal cars. And it's like, he's not even just taking up the like protecting people from monsters. He's trying to like protect his neighborhood from everything all the time. Right. Everywhere. And that's too heavy. That's so much. A lot. It's.

[00:18:44] And it is nice that Cordy kind of gets a front row seat to it, though. And she really gets to understand him because she is incredibly perceptive. Yeah. And she's come a long way in terms of empathy. You know? So. And it's it's I think it's it's nice that they paired them up for this episode. And it's a little unexpected.

[00:19:08] But the way that it works out and their relationship as the show goes on, I think a lot of it can be traced back to what she was able to observe in him in this episode. I think so, too.

[00:19:21] I think so.

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[00:21:06] At one point, he has clocked those things about her, but it's not like there's ever an inkling that that means he's into her. Right. And she's not into him. This is a friend work thing for her and for him. And I'm there for that. So nice. Platonic opposite sex relationships that are truly platonic are a rarity in TV a lot. Especially back then. Yeah.

[00:21:35] and it's just it's downright refreshing same thing with angel and oh gosh angel there's so much to talk about with yeah um but it is such a good gun episode yeah i really resonated with this concept that they talk about in that final speech about gun being his own worst enemy

[00:21:59] because sometimes i'm my own worst enemy and you can't there's a podcast i used to listen to all the time and i can't remember what it was called like the mental illness happy hour or something like that and the host used to say all the time you can't think your way out of a thinking problem you also can't like solo see into your own patterns all the time like sometimes you really need

[00:22:27] somebody outside yourself to give you some guidance because you can't think your way out of your own brain and when your own brain is putting you in this place where you're like self-defeating without realizing it you you can't see it yeah you need a truth teller like cordy to come along and see it and tell you that's true that's so important because tiptoeing doesn't help anyone no and she

[00:22:53] calls it right out she's like you're on a self-destructive path and this is not good and as soon as she says it in that episode i was just like yeah he is yeah it kind of clicks it's like this is not gonna be good for you man and all that pressure and self anger is leaking out of him all over the place right because he's being like mean to everybody he's mean to cordy and wes he's mean to angel

[00:23:19] he's mean to jamil and then like man is stressed so so when when we meet divak at the end towards the end of the episode and and then divak says you know throws gun's words right back at him and then reveals himself to be jamil and he and it's this like sort of tropey bullied kid suddenly gets strong and gets their revenge this is a story we've seen over and over and over again right supernatural did

[00:23:45] it great in the wishing well episode yes and uh i don't really understand though that if you're divak why do you care about the bullied kid why does the underdog matter to you that part of the story sort of doesn't work but he was picked on as a young demon maybe and it's also i realized after watching it a couple of times first i was just like the the monster design on divak is bad like this is the

[00:24:11] jankiest looking weirdest looking demon ever and then i laugh i realized that he is meant to be a like bizarro universe version of gun he's wearing he's wearing um like also the only two characters wearing like a reddish color are gun and divak they're both wearing these sort of orange red hoodies and then uh gun has like a vest on with these like buckles and stuff and divak's like ripped up dirty

[00:24:40] hoodie hoodie has a buckle on it and i was like oh he's meant to be like the messed up for like this is where you're headed gun yeah you're gonna turn into divak calm he's big but inside he's hurts and he's taking it out on other people this is you but i also am like why did they have to make him like look dirty is that supposed to make him look like he's from the hood is it racist i don't i don't know but it made me i was unhappy about it lots of thoughts that were confusing it's like i could see

[00:25:10] yeah but the messaging and the choices behind it i was like i don't know about that yeah it just felt a little like they were like oh we'll put this episode in the hood let's make it hood and i was like did all white people write this i think all white people were in the writer's room yeah it just didn't i mean it didn't age well but the character stuff is great it's just uh it's one of those if if

[00:25:34] this show had been and that never would have happened but if it was i don't know 2022 on hbo i feel like this episode could have been amazing yeah and handled very differently and very thoughtfully but for the time still a good episode choice is just a little iffy but gun staring you know staring into the face of

[00:25:59] dvac and essentially it's you know fighting his own inner demon at the same time i was like okay i see i can appreciate that and i can also laugh at how ridiculous he seemed yeah i couldn't handle it just just ridiculous a lot of my notes are just like random you know word vomit thoughts that

[00:26:28] popped into my head while watching the episode and the first thing that i typed about dvac was oh so dvac's really tall and kind of ugly is this racist like my as we went along i was like yep i don't know yeah i wrote the monster design for dvac looked

[00:26:55] awful it was also possibly racist right oh and then i said or maybe he's just giving orc vibes oh yeah a little orky yep just i don't know 2000 that could be the y2k yeah the underlying racism in this episode is very y2k i mean it's very 2026 let's be honest yeah we haven't come very far no as a as a people in fact we possibly have gone backwards uh great times good times i had a few

[00:27:24] moments in the episode that i just loved they were just little moments like when cordy and gun are talking at the hospital and then cordy without turning around realizes desmond is behind her and is like don't move a muscle or whatever it is she says to him like you stay right there it was so smooth because she didn't turn around or anything and he was like sneaking past her and so cute not

[00:27:47] he didn't get away with it i loved that um the keys i love that angel's keys included like what looked like a skeleton key or something and and that the key i mean yes his car is a 67 so he's got very old keys but it just was so funny to me because i was looking at it i was like when's the last time i saw car keys that looked like that like my i don't even have keys anymore i just have a thing that has a

[00:28:11] like and i don't even have to push a button i just have to stand near my car and i was like when's the last time i had keys that i that were like key keys like that and it was like my car that i had in the 90s which was a uh pickup truck had like met little metal keys and i could go to like a regular like you know like hardware store key counter and get copies made because they were just like normal keys

[00:28:38] now if i need to replace one of my car fobs it's like 500 yeah i was gonna say it's not cheap that's so crazy you have to go to the dealer like it's ridiculous that's like i love that you're looking at his car keys i kept thinking about the whole i know we've talked about this before i was why the hell does angel have a convertible oh i know california

[00:29:02] one of the sunniest states and there you know when he tells cordy he's like all right pick me up out back like in the shade i was just like how does this man go anywhere sewers in la yeah but yeah his car is ridiculous having a convertible as a vampire is ridiculous but it's it's la so you know you gotta have a you know if you if you are not a california person the hype about la especially at

[00:29:29] this time was that everyone in la drives a convertible everyone funny which is not true because the sun there is so brutal that even when i've been in la and had access to a convertible i'm like i don't think so it's too it's too hot and sunny like too bright maybe san diego it's too much yeah i just i have a convertible in boston and i use it a lot more than people would think i would

[00:29:53] use it all the time like that weather oh yeah when it's cold the absolute best is late september early october that is when everything comes together in like a perfect shining golden moment of like the perfect weather like crisp air bright sun blue sky uh ottoman new england is magic book my flight

[00:30:20] yeah you during that time uh i um dennis with the thermostat just it's always nice to have like a passing dennis moment like dennis don't forget about dennis that's cute uh and i really really really really really hate how angel was being such a baby about the pink helmet oh my gosh

[00:30:45] it bugged me so much care i was like you were around before pink was even associated with women right that only goes back to the middle of the 20th century so like cares and also i'm just tired of the vilification of pink i'm tired of like i'm tired of the way that some men will physically recoil from a feminine object as if it's going to burn them or or like as if femininity is contagious

[00:31:09] yeah so oh yeah try to hand a tampon to a a teenage boy and see just like damn man i think they would be happier if you handed them a live grenade they'd be like this i can handle yeah this is manly but like they are terrified of things and pink like so first of all there's this problem where like things for girls are colored pink and then more expensive like that's ridiculous and when you go

[00:31:36] to like the toy aisle at any big store and all the girls all the girls toys are pink it's it's like a pink explosion and then boys are sort of taught like no don't be girly and then they they start being like anything pink is gross and stupid and i just i think it's all tied up together in misogyny and patriarchy oh yeah i nothing makes me happier than when i see a dude just like wearing pink and not making a big deal out of it i don't know my brother has a pink shirt but good for him

[00:32:04] and he loves it too and he and he matches my little niece and she gets really happy and i'm like thank you for not being a misogynist misogynistic yeah it's not hard don't get me started on the messages like the writing on little girls clothes and outfits versus i could do a whole other episode

[00:32:27] about that that oh hell oh my god like you know it's crazy does this diaper make my thighs look fat like no no no it's like how are we doing this already um or well there's so many things like the way that you know heteronormativity is shoved onto like infants it's like oh this one's gonna be a little ladies man it's like he is three months old like stop it um it's just let's not yeah gross

[00:32:56] gross gross um cordy leaving the keys in the car is this a thing people do i i swear it must only happen in tv because i don't understand it i have only done that when there's a specific reason to leave my keys in the car like when i drop them off for service when i leave my car for service normal they're like leave the keys in the car okay that's what i'll do but like otherwise i'm not never

[00:33:22] keys in the car ever no not at all ever i don't know maybe maybe some people do do that but i can't imagine why you would yeah it seems like a terrible idea but i feel like it happens in tv all the time all the time or people in in tv shows are always like oh let's steal a car oh that has the keys in it and then the keys are like in the i tried one time i was like does that even work and i put my

[00:33:48] keys in the visor and like it doesn't work the visor is not strong enough to hold your keys up like that it just flopped right down like that's not even and now with fobs especially won't work like the fob is like an inch thick like that's not gonna work it's just gonna stay it's such a tv thing that like takes me out of it i'm like you don't listeners if you leave your keys in your car yeah let us know i'd love to know uh i also really i really want to know when angel and

[00:34:16] wesley get to the party right and there's like an ambulance and like chaos or whatever and that one woman is leaving and they they they're like oh are you okay do you need help and they like sort of pull her aside i want to know at what point in that scene did they know she was a vampire right at what point did angel know and at what point did wesley know because they sort of pull her out of view of everyone else to talk to her and wesley like angel's talking to her and wesley is doing

[00:34:42] the like is anyone watching us thing yeah and and if they thought she was human i don't think they would have had to do that is anyone watching us thing so did they know the minute they saw her was angel like that one's a vamp and wesley's like all right let's get her or did wesley figure it out part of the way through did angel figure it out right before he like headbutted her like right i think i didn't remember until she was just like yeah when angel was like are you okay

[00:35:10] she was like yeah thanks i was like that's kind of weird yeah no and then he headbutted i was like oh yeah so i don't know what wesley was thinking or if wesley was just keeping an eye out to make sure no one was gonna sneak up on them for some reason yeah because how how would he tell angel i feel like there'd be some sort of spidey sense yeah other vampires at least a little bit i could believe that but i don't know i i'd like to think that wesley didn't realize it until angel headbutted her

[00:35:40] it's like what are you doing man yeah uh let's talk about angel so you know the main story of this episode is cordy and gun but in the background we have this mirror episode so gun is being a jerk because of internal stuff going on well angel is being a like a flake and off his game and like out of it sleeping all the time sleeping all the time in a hurry they get back to the office he's like i'm going to bed and they're like already it's been like an hour and he's like i want to go

[00:36:10] back to bed and we find out it's because he's having all these these like loving sweet seductive dreams about darla the open is so funny because i think it's hilarious that he's dreaming about doing well at karaoke at caritas so cute that's a thing he's dreaming about and then darla's in the dream and and she looks amazing right and she's so sweet and seductive with him and and she keeps

[00:36:38] talking about how he takes care of other people no one takes care of him but i will and you deserve more and everybody doesn't appreciate you the way i would it's all this like male fantasy stuff and he the first time we see him wake up from that dream the look on his face is like i don't know what to make of that but then he's like i gotta go back to bed right now like he's so ready enjoy and they

[00:37:04] do i mean they have a lot of chemistry and darla is one of those what is her julie ben's is one of those actresses who can just like turn it on and ooze sensuality yeah and angel's a goner and and she obviously she knows him they were together for hundreds of years and she knows what

[00:37:30] buttons to push and poor angel just thinks he's you know having some confusing dreams yeah harmless possibly although in this universe why anyone would ever think their dreams are harmless and not suspicious but yeah we get the reveal at the end of the episode that she's in physically in the room with him and we i don't understand how that whole thing works like is she telepathically in his dreams

[00:37:55] is her being in the room with him influencing the dreams does she know what he's dreaming i don't i don't really know but she's in the room like she knew so yeah it seems like she knows what's happening but it might just be that she's in the who knows yeah and and uh so he doesn't realize that there's something bigger going on necessarily but he sort of should

[00:38:22] because he knows that there's magic and he knows that there's people in this world who want to get him off his game and he knows that he's off his game yeah he should be clued in right he says it when they have the first fight in the garage he's like we should have been able to take those vampires like this is not good and then he's like i'm going back to bed you guys it's just an off day it's not it's not an off day it's like no and again cordy the truth teller is

[00:38:48] like you've been doing that a lot lately not that i'm judging yeah that was cute uh it is suspicious yeah um a lot of sleeping and it's also interesting that that is typically a sign of you know depression or something underlying going on and with angel he's so broody already but seeing him smile so big in his dreams with darla is kind of jarring yeah because of how we're

[00:39:18] yes she she is just reeling him in and i mean i i can understand it is kind of you know you talked about a male fantasy where she starts talking to him about how he's always the protector never the protected and it goes so much deeper with angel and i just i need him to wake up and actually see

[00:39:44] what's going on because that is some next level manipulation yeah she's good at what she's doing expert level and she's the only other person wearing wearing red she wears red a lot it's a great color on her uh and it works it's the color of like love passion etc etc the football summer is there now it's with fieber and with jubel and even with spielen click on the banner

[00:40:13] and you're with the bonus the advantage program of the rewe app you're with the match winner winneteil elfmeter duel with bo the strongest rewe to all the time and secure your damit weekly fan coupon so wie die chance of attractive preise also los schnapp dir jetzt einen fan bonus in der rewe app nur bis zum 18 7 and i love i love that scene because it really

[00:40:39] does feel truly like a dream he sees her and they start dancing and before they're dancing the bar like everything is it's crowded it's lively there's people everywhere and then everyone disappears but them and you know the host singing up on stage and they one thing that jw and crew do well is dream sequences

[00:41:05] yeah i usually kind of hate dream sequences but they're really good at using them strategically and they don't feel like they were like we don't know just fill it with random images no one will know they have a point yeah there's something that ties them together and i do love them quote-unquote moon bathing yeah the moon bathing was adorable fantastic and they look good together at first i was like i forgot how much chemistry they have yeah they really do and i don't know how much

[00:41:32] of it is chemistry or just julie ben's i mean because she's stunning she is she is very beautiful and very sensual and i saw a picture of her from just the last few days because uh there's some con going on right now like hellmouth con or something and i was like she doesn't look like she's aged in 20 years she looks great she looks amazing uh but also david boreanis it has chemistry with like a light

[00:41:59] post true both and the two of them together it's it's only you know it's only natural it's it's yeah it's funny because like um when what we've seen of darla in the past she is not in any of the scenes that we've seen her in the past she hasn't been like this sweet caretaking nurturing person it's

[00:42:24] funny that this is what he would dream about because when they were together it was about like death death and destruction yeah so i mean i i and that's why i wonder how much of it is angel dreaming it up and like you said is it is she able to influence the dreams is she able to

[00:42:49] dictate what's happening or is he just that vulnerable at this point in time that he needs someone to take care of him and just the hint of her being around is what causes that type of dreaming i don't even remember if we dive into that in the future honestly which is kind of nice yeah it's like we could talk about it a little in watchers diaries but um i am just excited for this

[00:43:19] this storyline i i really enjoyed darla i think julie benz adds a really fun element to the show and um the rest of the team is sort of like clicking along right like cordy and wes have a great dynamic now and like gun is getting brought into the fold things are sort of moving well so it's time for the

[00:43:41] drama to be on angel's lap for a little while then that is some diabolical action from wolfram and heart bringing her back and you know it's i they can't have imagined how it it would go this well this quickly i feel like and there's just a draw and they have a lot of history angel and darla so it's just gonna

[00:44:08] get more and more intense i love it i love i love this whole storyline i'm so excited about it but we could talk more and watchers diaries about it yes hey should we talk about some pop culture references yeah pop culture from 50 40 years ago it's always good so first up the host mentions the songs send in the clowns and tears of a clown send in the clowns was written by steven sondheim for the 1973

[00:44:38] musical a little night music and the tears of a clown was written by hank cosby smoky robinson and stevie wonder and was originally accorded by smoky robinson and the miracles appearing on the 1967 album make it happen i only know tears of a clown oh that is a good song i am not sending the clowns was a song that we did in my middle school chorus nice it's it's a gloomy sound song it's not an

[00:45:07] uplifting fun song that's interesting yeah it's a strange choice for for angel and i don't really have any insight into why he would have had a clown medley but i know my just for you penny yeah my dislike of clowns is well recorded so uh gun as we talked about earlier compares wesley to the fictional droid c-3po from the star wars franchise and cordelia he calls stick figure barbie which is obviously a

[00:45:34] reference to barbie the mattel toy yes and cordelia says gun should act less like michael madsen in reservoir dogs and a bit more like guy pierce in la confidential reservoir dogs is a 1992 heist film and quentin tarantino's feature debut and la confidential is a 1997 neo-noir that famously lost the best picture to titanic i do really enjoy la confidential it's fantastic and there were a lot of people who

[00:46:02] were very upset about that oscar outcome myself among them stand that for sure gun says that he has not bothered to see a movie since denzel was robbed of the oscar for malcolm x malcolm x is a 1992 spike lee film based on the true story of the civil rights leader malcolm x and famously he did not win

[00:46:26] the best ask best actor oscar that year it went instead to al pacino and scent of a woman a performance i hate yeah it's like malcolm x that malcolm x performance everything that movie is brilliant if you have not seen it listeners it's so good and prepare yourself it is very very true to the book upon which it's based which is called the autobiography of malcolm x by alex haley uh who is the person who wrote

[00:46:53] roots he's sort of famous for writing roots and it's a great book it's a really good read it's it's one of those like it reads it's a page turner like you can't put it down but it's a true story it's so good and the movie is brilliant denzel washington is brilliant in it and that al pacino performance is like the height of al pacino just yelling a lot and gosh this oscar's made me so angry i can imagine

[00:47:19] i was like that is just criminal it did not turn me off seeing movies though obviously i love movies that's funny but i like that i and then i do love angel's reaction when wesley is changing the subject and angel's like who doesn't love denzel yeah good good choice angel it's true moving on to a little bit of trivia so first the title of the episode is a reference to the jane austen novel pride and

[00:47:48] prejudice which was originally named first impressions just as in this episode the novel is about two very different people who come to revise their first impressions of each other after spending some time together of course meaning cordelia and gun in the previous season the title sense and sensitivity was chosen as a reference to austin's novel sense and sensibility

[00:48:09] a little english major fun so cordelia sports an outfit identical to the one buffy wears in the gift which is the finale of season five which we haven't gotten to yet and i will remember you which is from season two or three let's see i will remember you buffy is oh season one episode eight oh that's 99

[00:48:38] holy crap that can't be that's what it says oh there's the sweater okay very cute sweater yeah oh it's angel season one episode eight oh okay that makes more sense okay that's why that that's all right geez it's time for the question of the hour which is does it still slay

[00:49:01] i mean uh despite some aspects of the episode that didn't age well we talked about the racism and some of the jokes i think it absolutely does still slay it's still a very compelling episode i enjoyed it more than i remembered when i watched it originally and i would not skip it in a rewatch for sure yeah i think that what i skip it in a rewatch test is is a good one because

[00:49:28] i wouldn't skip it either it's really important for gun and cordy development and it's incredibly important for like the angel storyline even though that storyline is sort of simmering in the background this episode it's critical information so much to come yeah well we didn't get any listener feedback this week so um we'll skip right to that being the end of the main section of the podcast and

[00:49:57] no beer for us yeah no beer for us today i'm drinking iced tea uh stay tuned for the watcher's diaries if you want to hear us have a little bit of a spoilery talk and as always if you'd like to join the conversation you can find all of our contact information at podcastica.com and in the show notes for each episode also at podcastica.com you'll find links to our social media pages and all of our other shows so what are you watching lately you said earlier you've been

[00:50:25] catching up on supernatural oh man i have i have binged the crap out of supernatural lately and it has been absolutely lovely it's just one of those shows that i never get tired of yeah and it's just it's just a fun one i've also been um watching a lot of apple tv shows lately after my

[00:50:48] for all mankind kicked kick and i which what is it called oh gosh widow's bed oh god i love that yeah i've that the finale of that came out recently and i'm so excited they're gonna be doing a second season but there is the jason momoa show see i started watching that and it's been it's pretty good i i'm

[00:51:16] gonna give it a few more episodes see if it really sucks me in but anything time travel right now that is that's where my brain is at what about you so i am loving vampire list dot i i was late to the party on interview with a vampire and i ended up watching the first two those two seasons you know after everyone else did and i enjoyed it a lot i thought it was really great really well done

[00:51:44] vampire list dot is next level it is so enjoyable it's uh because of the they're you know they're based on these books by ann rice and interview with the vampire the conceit is that it's this the character louis is telling his story to a journalist you know louis the vampire he's being interviewed and that journalist writes a book about it that gets published vampire list dot is this is the list dot

[00:52:12] story who is louis maker and louis lover and it's told from his perspective and in part as a response to the interview with a vampire because he in the story he's he reads the book and he's like that's not what happened and so you're getting a lot of similar things that happened in the interview with the vampire seasons from a different point of view in vampire list dot and characters behave a little

[00:52:38] differently dialogue goes a little differently everything is is told from this other point of view and i love when uh when you get stories like this like one of my favorite books is ender's shadow which is the ender's game story told from the perspective of another character another great example of that is the wide sargasso sea which is the jane air story told from the perspective of of um what's his name's wife

[00:53:04] and then uh it's not a great book but there was a big intellectual property lawsuit about it which was the wind done gone which is gone with the wind told from a different character story i was that lawsuit was going on right around this time and fascinating and then uh the the wind done gone people won and the book was able to be published and i rushed right out and bought it and then i read it and i was like

[00:53:30] oh that's not that good but i'm glad it exists and i just i always love to see the same story told from another perspective it's really fun i was gonna say midnight sun is yeah but i've never read that one but yeah that's another one of those that's the twilight one it is so long edward has a lot of thoughts well because he doesn't sleep no just uh the other show that i'm watching and

[00:53:57] it just started this week is house of the dragon and the season opener which should have been last season's penultimate episode so season two of house of the dragon was originally planned to be two more episodes longer than it was and so the first two episodes of season three were planned originally to be the final two episodes of season two and it's not hard to be like yep that would have been an amazing conclusion just like you know how in game of thrones it was always the second to last episode

[00:54:25] where they would have like the big explosive events crazy yeah crazy like the battle of blackwater bay or you know battle of the bastards those were always the penultimate episode so this episode three season three episode one you're like yep this this fits that pattern perfectly this would have been a bonkers penultimate episode of season two oh that's fast i yeah i need to re-watch season one or a recap so i can get caught up it's my social media feed exploded

[00:54:55] with people posting about house of the dragon yeah it was all right it was extremely memeable and on top of being like a good hour of television and i listened this morning to the podcastica dragon cast podcast talking about the episode and they do this great thing at the end where they do two segments of book talk so they do part of it they talk about what happened in the book up to

[00:55:21] the point where the show is and how it compares and then they give another spoiler warning and they're like now we're going to talk big spoilers and i always just listen to the first part and i don't listen to the second part they are so that coverage is excellent it's really i might have to re-watch it just so i can listen to that yeah it's that's veronica rennie and wendy they do a great job and they the three of them have a nice blend of personalities i really enjoy their coverage and

[00:55:47] voices yeah like i would listen to them getting ready in the morning or to fall asleep during the first season in particular and it was just so comforting yeah i'm gonna have to re-watch yep that's what i'm doing all right it's decided oh man and of course if you like what we do give us a five-star rating a review or a like follow and subscribe and tune in next time when

[00:56:14] we'll be covering buffy season five episode three the replacement thanks everyone and you need protection and how exactly do you plan on protecting me with some weak ass ladiesmith battle axe ask joey in his cracked skull just how weak ass it is poor joey yeah joey didn't deserve that and the bandage that she did for him looked so janky it was so funny was like yeah okay

[00:56:42] tapping it like oh good okay there you go oops all right that's the end of the no spoiler section and if you want to avoid the spoilers now is when you should stop listening three two it's too bad we can't sneak a look at the watcher diaries and read up on angel i'm sure it's full of fun facts to know and tell yeah that's too bad that stuff is private

[00:57:06] also giles keeps them in his office in his personal files most importantly it would be wrong okay so even knowing what i know about the rest of the season i don't understand what is happening with darla and i don't either all i remember is there's a powder right but like how

[00:57:34] does that make her psychic does that make angel psych are they telepathically linked is she able because she's not even a vampire right now she's human she's a human so soul how is she in his dreams does she know what he's dreaming or is she just like influencing him i don't understand it and i don't think i ever get an answer no i was gonna say i don't remember ever having anything sort of

[00:57:58] satisfactory to explain how that was happening yeah it's it's so frustrating darla um i am so excited for the things that this story is going to lead us to right so first there's going to be angel being like darla's alive and everyone's like oh no angel's crazy and then and then he's like nope this is really her and then actually alive and then darla's dying of syphilis right and she's like

[00:58:24] and and then he tries to rescue her but then the that doesn't work out and then and then they bring in wolf redheart brings in drusilla and drusilla changes her back into a vampire and then there's all this like you're my grandma but you're also my fledgling like stuff where and darla's like please stop calling me both of those things yeah it's a it's an interesting interesting story like i love it and i

[00:58:51] one of my favorite episodes is that crossover with buffy where spike is narrating how he killed the slayers that he killed and we get those really delicious flashbacks to the four of them together yeah during like the boxer rebellion and all this like that that era of the show is one of my favorites this season is just delicious and it's i mean i don't really understand why they bring drusilla back

[00:59:20] entirely but i love having drusilla around again yeah i'm never gonna complain about having drusilla around it's just it it really gets going and seeing you know the dynamic of the team influenced by angel and darla is a fun one yeah so and like angel is decides at some point he's like if i'm gonna beat

[00:59:49] drusilla and darla i have to go dark and he kicks cordy gun and wes out and he's like yeah i gotta do this my way and then he like starts like beating people up and like and then he yeah he just it it gets so like messed up and dark and like it's very dark it's really um it's so fun i am so excited about

[01:00:16] the rest of season two three two two yep it's gonna be it's very fascinating but yeah i was good i was hoping you were gonna say that you remembered what the deal was with the dreams because i was like i don't think we ever get any sort of explanation the only thing we we will learn at some point that there's

[01:00:36] some like potion or powder or something that darla is using but like what how what i don't know and of course we get more spike and that always yeah there will be good and like yeah the drusilla stuff is so fun the way she's like you know i decided to enter the 20th century and someone's like it's the 21st century she's like whatever yeah i'm close close enough

[01:01:05] they go on like a murder rampage across los angeles oh god so great oh they're they just they bring new life yeah to the show i really wish that at some point on vampire list dot that they would be like oh my god have you watched buffy the vampire slayer and like them being like yes drusilla

[01:01:27] is my favorite character like i i think let's not would really enjoy spike and he would really enjoy darla like he'd be like these people are great these people are a lot of fun i was um texting with sam and i was like i was like you know that daniel thinks daniel on vampire list dot thinks he's spike but he's not and she's like no no he's not and then we started talking about who everybody's

[01:01:53] favorite characters would be and it was a really fun conversation um sam will be back on the podcast eventually everyone she's just got a very very very tiny little baby at home now a little tiny baby she's she's a little busy and also babies are very unpredictable so it's hard to be like yes i can set aside some time to record in quiet like that's just true so rowan can just contribute to conversation it's fine it'll be fine

[01:02:23] all right that is the complete end of our show today and everybody thank you so much for listening and until next time i'm penny and i'm cara keep slaying

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