87: Angel S2E5 “Dear Boy”

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[00:00:58] What kind of game are you running? Just having a little fun. I've been out of commission too long. You know how that feels. Wolfram and Hart didn't bring you back for fun. Dreams, a frame job. What's the big plan? You're so screwed up if I go bad again? Kind of trait, I know. What do you expect? They're only human. You better embrace that mediocrity,

[00:01:22] honey. You're talking about your own kind now. But I'm still me. I remember everything, Angel. Everything we did. Everything we can do. What the bitch is. You have a soul now.

[00:01:44] Pretty soon, those memories are gonna start eating away at you. No matter how hard you try, you won't be able to escape the truth of what you were. Believe me, I know.

[00:01:56] Hello, Scoobies. Welcome to Still Slaying, a Buffyverse podcast. I'm Penny.

[00:02:26] And I'm Kara. For this episode, we're going to be discussing season two, episode five of Angel, titled Dear Boy, written by David Greenwald and Mare Smith and directed by David Greenwald. This episode originally aired on October 17th, 2000 to an audience of 3.6 million households.

[00:02:47] Some alternative titles in other languages for this episode were Greetings from London in Finnish, Reunions Make Enemies in German, and The Trap in Italian. Interesting. I don't understand Greetings from London. I don't either. I mean, they are in London in the flashback. I guess that's it, but there's nobody that reading. No.

[00:03:16] It's just like these memories are coming back, and I don't know. Yeah, that doesn't make any sense. The trap is kind of perfect. Yeah, that makes sense. And still leaves a little to the imagination as to what's happening in the episode. Yeah. Reunions make enemies. I get that. Yep. Okay. Yeah. All right. Very straightforward. Did you have a Y2K moment of the week?

[00:03:43] I mean, other than the general, like, flip phone, I was like, oh man, that's an old phone. That and a lot of the outfits of the extras with like the chunky knit sweaters and platforms, that stood out to me this time more so than normal. Yeah. Which was kind of fun.

[00:04:06] I enjoyed Darla's monochromatic twin set look with the like satin camisole and the fuzzy blue sweater. That's cute. And all the blues that were almost the same blue. Mm-hmm. I'm like, I think I had an outfit just like that that I wore to work, but it wasn't satiny because that would have looked too like lingerie-ish for a long term. That's true.

[00:04:28] But I feel like, especially back then, clothes that, you know, that satin lingerie look was incredibly popular. Oh, it was, but I could not have worn that at a law firm. Not at a law firm. But I had multiple like silk camisoles with lace. Yeah. That I would wear with like a long flowy skirt and like the chunky platform heels. Yeah. Those were fun. That was super in around that time. Oh. And she looks great. Darla.

[00:04:58] That looks gorgeous. She's an exceptionally pretty woman. And she still is. I saw a picture of her just a few days ago from some convention or something that they were all at. And when she got on the stage, I was like, that cannot be Julie Benz. She doesn't look different. Yep. Except that her hair is curly. Not curly, but like wavy and long. I was like, it is Julie. That is Julie Benz. Like it blew my mind.

[00:05:27] How good she, how young she looked. Like they all look good. They all look good. Yeah. But she just didn't look like she had aged. It was wild. Good for her. Maybe she's actually a vampire. I don't know. I'd buy that. But there are some people in Hollywood that it's like, what supernatural force is keeping you this young looking? It's like, this is suspicious. This is weird. What is the name?

[00:05:57] It's going to drive me crazy. Of the actress in Game of Thrones who is married to Joffrey. And her mom is, is it Lady Olayna is her mom? Yeah, Marjorie Terrell. Yes. What is her name? That actor's name is Natalie Dormer? That sounds right. Right? I think so. She was also in Hunger Games, the third and fourth Hunger Games movie.

[00:06:27] I love her. So she and Julie Benz have always given off the same kind of vibe to me in that I feel like they are just inherently sensual. Like there is this, I don't know what it is. Like they just kind of ooze sexuality to me. Yeah, there is definitely a seductiveness about both of them.

[00:06:53] I was thinking about how different, again, I know I mentioned this before, but how different Julie Benz's performance of Darla is from whatever the character's name was that she played in Dexter. Oh, yeah. Was it Rita? Rita, yeah. Because Rita was someone who had gone through some trauma and was sort of reserved and shy and sort of nervous. Yeah.

[00:07:20] And the delicateness and the sweetness and the breathiness came across as like fragile, not seductive. It's a different vibe from Darla. It's interesting. She's just so talented. She's good. She's really good. That it's subtle. And it's one of those things that there are certain actors when I look at them, I am fully aware that they are acting.

[00:07:48] You know, it kind of takes you out of it. Unfortunately, like when David Boreanaz is trying to do his Irish accent and the way he pronounced daughters, I immediately was like, oh, the dialect coach probably worked with him on that one. But not long enough. No. But that was the first thought in my head. I feel like Julie Binns, there's something about her that always brings this authenticity to her performances. And it just is kind of captivating.

[00:08:18] And she, I mean, both she and David Boreanaz would have chemistry with a brick wall. So when you put them together, it's insane. And it just makes for such fun TV. Yeah, it's really fun to watch them. I'm excited that now they've, like, met in person. He knows she's in town. Like, it's on. The game. What is, how do you say it in French? Le jus son fait. The game is on. The game is on. The game is afoot. Very sure lucky. That's appropriate.

[00:08:48] Yeah. I really, I'm enjoying, I'm so excited that it's here. I've been so excited. I've said it so many times. I'm so excited for Darla to be able to be back. And that he knows that it's her. And, like, and that she's, like, yeah. She's all in. It's so great. The gaslighting in this episode is next level, too. So let's get into it. Let's talk about it. And we have our setup that means that Angel is at this hotel doing really dumb PI stuff.

[00:09:15] Like, it takes three people to, like, clock this woman cheating on her husband. Yeah. Whatever. Like, you need to record and take pictures and have a, like, whatever. Special. And she was, that woman was gross. Yeah. Like, uh, I can get abducted by the aliens whenever I want. I wanted. It felt icky. I was glad when Angel was like, this is tacky. Yeah. I was like, it is tacky. We're above this. Too bad.

[00:09:42] And the look of incredulity on Cordelia and Wesley's faces when this man was describing aliens was so funny to me. It's like, they live in a world where monsters are real. All sorts of things are real. But aliens is a little too far for them. And not to mention, like, it's entirely possible. Let's say this woman really was getting abducted. That she thinks it's aliens, but it's demons. And it's demons, right?

[00:10:11] Yeah, the look on their face of, like, that can't possibly be true is ridiculous to me. Because I'm like, you deal with crazy stuff. Oh my gosh. All the, one of my favorite lines in the entire series of Firefly is when somebody, they're telling, they're telling the group about something kind of crazy. And Wash goes, really? Is that really true? And then Zoe turns to him and goes, we live on a spaceship, dear. That's right. Oh, man.

[00:10:41] And he's like, oh yeah, that's right. It just, it's like, let's just put some things in perspective. That's perfect. You know, like in this episode when Wesley's like, vampires don't come back from the dead. And Angel's like, I did. It's like, hey, right here. Standing right here. Although technically he wasn't dead. He was sent to a hell dimension, which is different from dead. I suppose. He didn't turn to ash. None of that stuff. He got sucked into a portal. It's different. Oh, I love that. And the reminder, we'll get there.

[00:11:11] But the reminder to Kate that like, hey, you know, he's a vampire. You know how this works. Yeah. How did he get in? Logically. I have that one. Sweet. He stalked that woman because he thought she was this Darla from his past. She begged him to stay out and he knocked down the door and killed her husband. I've read about him too. I know what he is and I know he hasn't changed. No, he hasn't. He's still a vampire. Gone. Not helping. So how did he get in the house?

[00:11:41] She invited him in? Of course she didn't. The only way Angel could have gotten into that house uninvited would be if the real owners were dead. It's what he was saying all along. She isn't Deetta Kramer. You're grasping at straws. Are we? This is a daguerreotype of Darla taken over a hundred years ago. That woman who said she was Deetta Kramer. Look familiar? Hmm. Hmm. I love that Gunn is the one to point that out too. Yeah.

[00:12:10] Because Gunn is in the middle of a full, like, I don't know if I'd call it an existential crisis, but some kind of crisis. Yeah. Where he's like... You all right? Yeah. I'm just adjusting to the idea that this good guy vampire I work for can go bad. It takes a little time. We've all been through it. 99% of the time he's good. And he's done a lot for us. There's nothing I respect more than loyalty. That's good to hear. But if the bad angel walks through that door, I will kill him in two seconds flat.

[00:12:40] Good luck. Yeah. Good luck with that. Also. But, you know, he's having this moment of, like, when I first met him, I didn't trust him. And then he lured me in. And he seemed all cuddly and do-gooder. And I got to do cool stuff with him. But, like, this realization that, like, no, your first instinct was kind of right. Yeah. He is dangerous.

[00:13:07] Like, it is incredibly dangerous to be in angel's circle. Yeah. And it's important to constantly remember it. As much as you can trust him, you also can't trust him. It's a hard line to walk. It's difficult. But I loved when Kate was like, you just want to protect your boss or whatever. And both Wesley and Cordelia crossed their arms at the same time. That was nice. It was such a great moment of, like, just pure loyalty. They are loyal.

[00:13:38] And why wouldn't they be at this point in time? I mean, you know, the laws of, like, humanity and the police and everything are sort of, they have a bigger focus. Right? They have this save the world from supernatural things that the law cannot address focus. And so, you know, their attitude is sort of like, you're beside the point to Kate. Yeah. And it's interesting, too.

[00:14:07] You know, we talk about the law in the context of the Buffyverse. And I do love how Darla, when she's talking to Lindsay, she's playing around with the scales of justice. Oh, I didn't catch that. That's adorable. I was just like, God, this show. But it's a fascinating lens to look through the show. Because what is lawful, a lot of people usually equate with what is right. And that's not always the case. Not at all.

[00:14:37] And in real life or in Buffy, especially, you know, in the Buffyverse that we see. And so it's always nice when they kind of play with that in the writer's room and we get them to examine it. Because with Darla, oh, that poor actor guy, too. They did a good job of making him, like, just annoying enough. Yeah. When he's killed, you're like, oh, well.

[00:15:06] It's unfortunate. Gosh. Oh, my gosh. I'm like, oh, poor dude who didn't want to have the carbs and thought that the linguine smelled true. Yeah. I was like, what? All right. We get it. You're an actor. Yeah. We understand. So, so clever and cute. By the way, if you enjoy people making fun of actors, watch Wonder Man.

[00:15:33] That whole series, there is so much just hilarity of playing with, like, actors finding the truth of the moment. That's so funny. It's funny because, like, I love the work that they create, but, like, I have found being in, like, proximity to actors to sometimes be really irritating. It's like, go act. Leave me alone. It's like, all right, shoot.

[00:15:57] But I will say, I had one nitpick in terms of lawyer things in this episode. One. Well, you know, one glaring one. When Kate and the SWAT team barge into the Hyperion and Wesley's like, you have a warrant? And she basically admits, no, we don't have a warrant. He just murdered this person, kidnapped his wife, blah, blah, blah. I'm pretty sure I've got probable cause.

[00:16:26] I was like, yeah, you use that to go get a warrant. You don't have exigent circumstances. I was going. If they had reason to believe he was in the hotel with a kidnapped person. Right. That would be exigent. That would be exigent circumstances. But they don't know where the hell he went. What about the fact that he runs a business out of the hotel? They would get a warrant.

[00:16:51] Like, if I were to get a phone call at 2 a.m. with this situation, I would have been like, get your warrant immediately. Because otherwise you risk the entire case getting thrown out. Right. If you find anything of use. Because if you can't articulate, like, usually exigent circumstances, if you see someone, like, grab, let's say, hypothetically, you see someone grab a kid, run into their house, and barricade the door. That is a perfect example of exigent circumstances.

[00:17:21] You saw it happen right in front of you. Right. Right. What if you're like. He's gone, and they know she's gone. That's it. That's all they know. That's all. They didn't see him go in a certain direction. They didn't see them go off together. They're just assuming he has her. They're right. But they can't articulate why they think that other than. And they have no reason to think that they're in the hotel, except that he lives there.

[00:17:46] And all of that, like, it obviously has no impact on the episode, but my brain just immediately was like, you're getting that case thrown out. Yeah, of course. That's not going to work. I'm glad, because the Fourth Amendment is there to protect all of us. Very important. Kate got on my nerves this episode. Yeah. It's funny, because I know that the general feeling in the fandom is that they don't like Kate.

[00:18:16] And I have tended to be a Kate defender, because I think I see so much potential in the idea of Angel having a complicated alliance with a member of the police department. There's, like, so many interesting ways that that story could go. Yeah. But I think that they messed up Kate in a bunch of different ways.

[00:18:44] And one of the ways is that they teased a romantic relationship between the two of them. Yeah. And that's, like, sort of annoying in the midst of her being so angry at him all the time. And also, like, she's like, and she even says it. Wait, let me, I think I have this clip. You don't get it, do you? What? The fact that he's innocent? The fact that while you're fighting your big battles of good and evil, the innocent are the ones that get caught in the crossfire. Those are the ones that I care about.

[00:19:14] Like that man tonight. Or like the real owners of that house if what you say is true. And those are the ones that I chalk up to your boss. You can't blame Angel. He's trying to do what's right. That's right. He's good. I keep forgetting. I'm sorry. And why did he kidnap that woman again? Those are the ones I chalk up to your boss is ridiculous.

[00:19:40] In a world where, A, she knows there's all kinds of other demons and vampires and that Angel's trying to stop them. And B, Wolfram and Hart, she knows about Wolfram and Hart. Like, she doesn't know about the connection between them and Darla at this point. But like, she can't chalk up every person who gets hurt by supernatural forces to Angel because he's the one she knows. Yeah. Like, it's just... Come on, Kate. I understand being like, I don't trust him. He's a monster.

[00:20:10] But saying he's responsible for all these innocent people who got killed is really unfair and irrational. Yeah. Especially considering she's generally, like, she's supposed to be a decent detective. Right. Like a rising star when we meet her in the department. It's completely illogical to assume Angel is responsible for all of this when you know these forces exist. Yeah.

[00:20:38] And they predate him and they are all around. And like, whether or not you believe that Angel is doing good, you can't believe that he's responsible for all of it. It's confirmation bias gone crazy. Yeah. And it makes her seem like a lunatic. And also, like, unsympathetic. So, of course, the audience... And everybody also, like, the flirtation between them was, like, too soon after Buffy. Yeah.

[00:21:06] So, the whole fandom was just like, we hate her. Yeah. Well, that didn't work. If they had introduced her this season as a potential romantic interest in some different way, I think it would have been more palatable. Yeah. But it's just... It is interesting what could have been with that storyline. Yeah. Yeah. Obviously, though, the Darla chemistry works.

[00:21:34] And because she predates Buffy, and there has been now more time since he was with Buffy, we're ready to see Angel with somebody else. Like, we, the audience. And, like, the fact that she sort of, like, prepped him in this underhanded way also explains, like, when they start making out, part of you is like, no, don't kiss her, Angel. But another part of you is like, yeah. Yeah.

[00:22:04] It's so conflicting. She's like, oh, oh, no. Oh, but okay. Yeah. Like, I get it. Like, I agree with both of you. Like, she's hot. He's hot. There's clearly a draw there. Yeah. And their whole confrontation. First of all, the confrontation in the hotel is amazing. She's so good at being like, no. Steven, Steven.

[00:22:31] Like, she's so good at playing this, like, regular, like, afraid woman. And then running into the sunlight like that and breathing heavily. Like, all of that perfect performance. So good. And then in the water tank, first of all, aside, completely apropos of nothing, that water tank set is so cool. Oh, yeah. That was fun. I was like, I love this set. I saw one of the coolest things I've ever seen.

[00:22:57] I was in, when I was in Australia, the Art Gallery of New South Wales has two buildings. There's, like, a sort of more traditional building and then a really contemporary modern architecture building. And the modern building has way below it, you go down, like, ten floors, and there's this giant underground, what used to be a fuel tank. It's gigantic, and it has pillars like that. And they use it to exhibit large-scale art. Oh.

[00:23:26] And it is so mesmerizing and cool. And the space is, like, this, it's gigantic and dark. And it has those giant pillars like that. And it's such an interesting space. And then the art I saw in there was also really cool. That sounds cool. I spent, like, an hour and a half in there just, like, vibing with the space and the whole thing. And I took a bunch of pictures. And then, like, the pictures do not do it justice. It's hard to explain how, like, massive the space is.

[00:23:54] But the scene in this water tank reminded me of it really strongly. I was like, yeah, that's the same vibe. It's such a dynamic visual. Yeah. It's just, oh. And watching them. It's like a fantasy forest, but modernized. It's like a, yeah. And then running through the pillars and sort of hide-and-seek game. Oh, that was so cool. Perfect. And I love that, what is that line?

[00:24:20] When she has the cross pressed up against him when they're down there. Was it, God doesn't love you, but I still do? Yes. Like, God doesn't want you anymore, but I still do. And I was like, oh, that's good. That's really good. That is a great line. That's really good. And she knows him. She knows what gets to him. And she's not entirely wrong. When she's talking to him, she's like, you know, she talked about how he was legendary. He did all these things. She was like, that's innate.

[00:24:49] And it's just so much of a great, yeah. Yeah. It is. Like, that darkness is in him even when he is not Angelus. And it's just, it's so refreshing to see her back because she can pull out, you know, this kind of deep-seated darkness in him that is always there and always lurking.

[00:25:13] And you can understand watching them together why he feels this weird temptation with her. Yeah. And also, she's been in his head for, like, days, weeks. I don't know how long it's been going on. But he's been having these dreams about her, very, like, sexy dreams about her. And then he sees her in person. And he must have, like, all the emotions. Oh, yeah. Right?

[00:25:40] Like, anger, desire, fear, confusion, love. Like, all of them. That's a lot. It's a lot. Even for a vampire who has, you know, more power than the rest of us and more strength than the rest of us. Like, it's a lot. Well, and they were together for over a century. So, understandably, there's going to be a lot of mixed feelings there.

[00:26:05] And if I were Cordelia and Wesley, I would be very unsettled by Darla being back. And Gunn, poor Gunn, he's just brand new and has no idea what they're possibly looking at. Yeah. But he knows enough now to be incredibly freaked out. Like, legit. The whole conversation was so funny because they're like, yeah, sometimes he goes evil. And Gunn's like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Wait a minute. It's like, hold on.

[00:26:34] And they're like, we've all dealt with it. You'll get over it. It'll be fine. And he's like, uh, no. So funny. She's like, you guys didn't think this was important information to share with me previously? Yeah. And then he's like, when he gets together with Darla, how bad can it get? And they're like, oh, yeah. And I think they say, imagine Bonnie and Clyde if they had 100 years to get it right. Yeah. And he's like, so he thinks his party girl is back. And I was like, party girl. I love that, that description.

[00:27:03] Because it's like, when we see it in the flashbacks that when Angel, Angelus and Darla were together and hunting together, that it was a game and exciting. And like the party girl, I think is often referred to someone that someone does drugs with. Yeah. Like it's your drug girlfriend. And for Angel, or I mean for Angelus, the hunting and the violence and the evil was, that was his drug.

[00:27:32] I mean, he loved the blood. It's intoxicating to him. But for him, it was the like, the hunt, the chase. And then like, we get to see, you know, him find, like first time he sees Drusilla. Poor Drusilla. And he comes up with a plan to torment her. And then, you know, he's tormenting her and she's going completely insane. And he's like, I'm going to turn her. And even at that point, Darla was like, yikes. All right. What have I done? It's so dark. It's so dark.

[00:27:59] And especially, you know, we, seeing Drew before she was turned and we know how she ends up and what she's like now, it's just so jarring to think about his intention and how they loved convents. Yeah. He calls it a cookie jar. Oh, gosh. And this like, it's like the purity of it turns them on. Yeah. And it's just so demented.

[00:28:27] But they bring it out in each other. It's almost, I don't know. Yeah. I mean, there's a lot of movies and stories about sort of evil couples that make each other worse. Right. There's like natural born killers. There's, well, I think that, I can't think of any others off the top of my head. Bonnie and Clyde, obviously.

[00:28:55] But I think that it's also sort of a romantic fantasy to like throw caution to the wind, go full bore, like so deep into your self-gratification that you don't care about morals anymore. I think it's like a sex fantasy. That makes sense. And in the show, it's violence. But I think for people in real life, it's like, I just want to feel that free. Yeah. And that's connected.

[00:29:24] It's interesting to me too, because he brings up to Darla that there's this inevitability of her feeling the sting and the impact of everything she's done now that she has a soul. But she's been back for at least a few weeks. And she's just trucking along, just like she was when she was a vampire.

[00:29:51] So it makes me wonder how much of who Darla was as a human before being turned is left in her. How much of, you know, her makeup, her personality now is reflected in how she was as a human with a soul. Because her capacity for darkness is still... It's high. Very much still there.

[00:30:19] Like, she's like, all right, it's time to kill the guy. Like, she's... No, no problem. Fine with it. Just... I mean, he was annoying, but not kill him annoying. I know. It makes me want to be like, Lindsay, run. We can see that you are falling for this. When... What is it? When she's touching his hand and she said something about, like, I just wanted to see if you were able to... I wrote it down because I was like, oh.

[00:30:48] Well, she's like, you can't feel anything. Oh, you don't feel anything? And he's like, not in my hand. I know. Gross. And I was like, ah, no. Gross. Lindsay is so into her. And she knows it. And she's working him. Oh, jeez. It's funny that you're like, I want to say Lindsay, run. Because I'm like... I think at the time, I was like, maybe she's going to turn Lindsay. That would have been cool. I was like, maybe Lindsay becomes a vampire. Like... Really? It's like Christian Cain, run. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:31:18] Cutie pie. Lindsay being into Darla and like... Her work in him makes me happy. Because he is such a... Wolfram and Hart, in general, are such user manipulators. Oh, yeah. And this thing that they've done, bringing Darla back from the dead as human in order to torment Angel, is deeply evil and manipulative. Oh, yeah.

[00:31:44] And if she can sort of empower herself and wrest control from Wolfram and Hart, I am in favor. Yeah. I don't have any... It's going to be fun to watch. I don't have any bad feelings or sympathy for Lindsay in this situation. Like, he deserves everything that he gets. Oh, yeah. He absolutely does. Yeah. And it's just so... I don't know. It's just so textbook.

[00:32:11] Like, of course he is falling for her. And Darla is brilliant and knows exactly what she is doing. Yeah. And you just... You almost feel sorry for him. It's like, you poor guy. You have no idea what she's capable of doing to you. Like, you're completely screwed. Yeah. And there is something... And we can link it in the show notes.

[00:32:38] But I watched a video of the TPN guide after watching this episode. Because it's just something feels almost incestuous between Darla and Angel with that dear boy and the way she talks to him and kind of coddles him and how she sired him. He literally, like, drank from her breast area to sire him.

[00:33:03] And I googled, you know, Oedipus and Angel dear boy. And this TPN guide on YouTube talked about it in pretty good detail. And it's worth a listen because it just kind of opened my eyes. And the fact that she said... What did she say? About how she would eat his eyeballs in reference to Angel.

[00:33:30] I was like, yeah, this is very Oedipal poking out his eyes. Yeah, because who gets their eyes plucked out in Oedipus Rex? Is it Oedipus? Oedipus. Yeah. Plucks out his eyes. So he essentially isn't attracted to... His mother. His mother. And that, you know, the way these writers operate, I feel like that has to be... Yeah, that's intentional. Very intentional, which is just another delicious layer to this show.

[00:33:58] And, you know, there's the idea of... There's the prophecy in Angel and there's the prophecy in the story of Oedipus Rex. And it's just so... It's so interesting. It's delicious. It's just... I remember when, you know, they spun Angel off and I was, you know, I was watching it because, of course, I was watching it. And the first season was pretty good, but not, like, amazing. Yeah.

[00:34:26] And I was like, I don't know if they should... Maybe they should fold it back into Buffy. I don't know if they should have spun it off. But I do like having two shows in this universe. Like, that's fun. And then this storyline started and I was like, nope, I'm all in. Full board. Full board. It's like, glad they did this. This is juicy and dark and twisted. And I love it. It's perfect. It feels like... I know... I've said this, like... I don't know. I've said it multiple times before.

[00:34:54] But this is a turning point in the show. And it's really finding its footing and its identity with the return of Darla. It makes it so hard to stop watching it. I now want to binge it. And I didn't necessarily feel that way before. Yeah. It's hard not to just roll right into the next episode. Because it's like, what is going to happen after this? It's so exciting. It feels so good. And it's so creepy to me that they...

[00:35:24] Like, the whole scent thing and being able to recognize each other by scent. And I know that's a vampire thing. But when Angel said to Wesley, he was like, I know you had sex with a beach bleached blonde woman last night. I was just like, damn, what is he noticing every day? Yeah. Yeah. That they're not even aware of. But there's also something so primal in them recognizing each other by scent. Yeah, it's animal. It just...

[00:35:54] It adds... It adds a whole different layer to their relationship and their chemistry. Yeah. To the point where I forget that they're two actors. Right. It seems real. Watching them. It really does. Just not when he's speaking in an Irish accent. No, no, no. It's really... It's bad. So funny. This man has very few flaws, David Boreanaz. True. It's nice that he has one. Yeah.

[00:36:21] He's not entirely superhuman. So I think there's... I want to talk about something interesting. And I'm going to set it up with a clip. All you have to do is let me give you one little moment of happiness. You took me places. You showed me things. You blew the top off my head. But you never made me happy.

[00:37:00] Cheerleader did. We were together 150 years. We shared everything. You're saying... Never. You couldn't understand. I understand all right. Guy gets taste of something fresh and he thinks he's touching God. It wasn't about... Oh, you bet your ass it was.

[00:37:24] There was a time in the early years when you would have said I was the definition of bliss. Buffy wasn't happiness. She was just new. You're getting awfully bent over this, Darla. I couldn't feel that with you because I didn't have a soul.

[00:37:55] But then I got a second chance. Just like you have. And I started reading... Like... I googled like what is a soul and what is the soul because I wanted to talk about souls and what it means. And the idea that you can't have... You know... Angel's curse has always had this element of quote true happiness. Close quotes. Right? Like... Right.

[00:38:23] Not just feeling very happy. Not just feeling blissed out. Although there's the stupid episode with ecstasy in season one that ruins all that. But the idea... And we've talked about this before. That like he achieved true happiness with Buffy. Not during sex. It was after sex. It was after. It was the feeling of her fully trusting him and falling asleep in his arms after sex. It was that moment where he felt true happiness.

[00:38:52] And he says, you know, I couldn't feel that with you, Darla, because I didn't have a soul. Also, Darla didn't have a soul. Right? Like... Yeah. That kind of... That like level of love wasn't possible between them. But I was like, is it though? Because remember when the judge was like... Touched Spike. It was like, ugh, there's a little soul in here. Yeah. I feel there's love. Because Spike loved Drusilla. Yeah. Which is... He seems to be an anomaly for... At least they treat Spike.

[00:39:21] As an anomaly when it comes to his capacity for love. Except there's been other... Remember the vampire who... Who his partner got killed in season one? And Angel had to like... He was like an old friend of Angel's. And he was like angry at Angel for killing his like lifelong partner. Oh, yeah. Yeah. And that was like some kind of love. I mean, it was sick, obsessive like vampire love. Yeah. But it was some kind of love. I feel like it's like...

[00:39:50] It's almost like a trauma bond. Not necessarily. But there's this... This bond over... Like we talked about with the violence. Yeah. And it seems like they still have sexual needs. There's definitely also lust. Oh, yeah. But... And then like the way that they characterize Angel's soul is like it's Liam's... I mean, it's Liam's soul, right? Right.

[00:40:20] And so when he gets turned into a vampire, the mythology of the show has often been that like the soul goes on. Yeah. The soul is gone. And what's left is essence of demon inhabiting the body that previously had a soul. And it has access to all the human person's memories. But the human soul is gone. And the body is animated now by this like demon presence.

[00:40:45] But we've also seen that like that demon presence retains not just the memories of the human, but some like personality traits of the human. Yes. Like a... Is that the same pen? The Jeremy Renner? Yeah. The Jeremy Renner was the one who carved crosses in all their faces. Right. That angel sired. Yeah. And he was also having really weird, intense dreams.

[00:41:15] Yeah. He was connected to him. He was back. And it makes me feel there's some interesting similarities there in that connection and bond with someone that you've sired or they sired you. Yeah. And I wonder if that creates some sort of, I don't know, metaphysical tether to that person. Yeah.

[00:41:41] And if there's not a soul in like the Jeremy Renner character. Yeah. But there is a soul in Angel, then the tether is between the demon parts. And it's often depicted when Angel loses his soul and he becomes Angelus that the demon is suppressing the real angel. But it's not consistent, I guess, because hasn't the real angel left if he doesn't have his soul? And then it's confusing.

[00:42:10] I think it's worse. I mean, it's worse for me to imagine the soul being trapped and like essentially just locked away. Yeah. Locked in syndrome. Yes. Like that is terrifying. That's why. To think the demon has control, but the soul is still present. And. That's why I've always said if I get like turned into a zombie, just headshot right away. I don't want to be like that. I also.

[00:42:39] Don't leave me in there. Whenever there's like a hive mind story that like terrifies me. I hate the idea of being part of a hive mind. Anything that will take away my individuality and like. Autonomy. And my privacy of my own mind. Yeah. You know. That thought is terrifying. Like, no, thank you. I don't want it. That's why that movie Obsession is so scary. Because. And Get Out. Oh, and Get Out. Yeah. Get Out is terrifying. That really. That sat with me on a lot of levels.

[00:43:10] But that. I mean, it's possible that something like that happens with. With vampires. And maybe like there is still a little bit of. You know, William the Bloody. The poet in Spike. Right. And for some vampires, it bleeds through a little bit more than others. I would love to know what the writers actually. Yeah. Think. Like how far did they flesh out that concept in the writers?

[00:43:39] What rules were they playing by? Generally, the Buffyverse. The sort of spirituality of the Buffyverse kind of follows Christianity. And specifically some Catholicism, right? Like exorcisms are very Catholic. And the sort of the concept of the soul. They use a cross. Like all that stuff is sort of vaguely Christian, vaguely Catholic.

[00:44:05] And the Christian concept of the soul is that it is the part of you that is immortal. And when you die, it is reunited with God. And then there are various interpretations of that that include like you sort of retain your individuality or you sort of become one with the deity. I don't know what I personally believe about the afterlife. I don't really believe that there is one.

[00:44:32] But yeah, I do kind of believe in the concept of a soul. Yeah. I think it's the thing that makes each of us an individual. Yeah. I think that's about where I'm at. I don't. I mean, I guess there's. We don't know anything for sure. But it does seem like there is some amorphous essence that makes you you.

[00:45:03] And, you know, the whole idea of energy cannot be created or destroyed. Only transformed. Yeah. So I feel like there's, you know, there's something there. And that tends to be where my beliefs lie is that it's something. There's something. We don't know what it is. We don't know what it is. But it's so interesting how that comes into play with vampire lore. Yeah. And vampire fiction.

[00:45:33] And I, you know, who knows? Is Darla going to have some sort of, you know, incident where it all comes screaming back to her what she's done? Does she still have a consciousness? We'll see. Yeah. It's interesting because I've been watching. I've talked about it before. I hear I watched, you know, the interview with the vampire, Vampire Lestat. And then lately I've been watching Vampire Diaries.

[00:46:01] And I was sort of in my head comparing the different vampire mythologies. Like the Buffyverse vampires and then the Vampire Diaries vampires, Vampire Lestat vampires, and then sort of other vampire things I've watched in the past. And I was also sort of trying to decide, and I want your opinion on this, which type of vampire would I want to be if I was going to become a vampire? I've thought about that so much.

[00:46:25] Like which universe seems to have the, like, best version of the vampire, like, setup? And I think it might be Vampire Diaries. Yeah, I think you're right. It's not Twilight. No, it's not Twilight. I don't want to be a Twilight sparkle vampire. Well, no. Or with a constant burning thirst that you just have to get used to. Or you can't sleep. I want to be able to sleep. I love sleeping. Right. That would drive me insane. That was terrifying.

[00:46:56] Yeah. And the Anne Rice vampires, it seems like, it seems like it's like a torment. They're always tormented. And I don't know if that's just the personalities of the specific vampires that we meet in that show and in those books. But, like, they all seem to have, like, just be constantly in drama about their relationships and tormented about their existence. Yeah. It doesn't seem fun.

[00:47:26] No. The Vampire Diaries vampires, they have a lot of fun. Yeah, they do. And all of them can go out in the daylight with the help of, like, a magic piece of jewelry. Exactly. That's really cool. That makes a huge difference. And in, what, in Angel, there's, like, the Ring of Amara. There's just the one. One. That, eh, not gonna work.

[00:47:53] But you just, if you know a witch or you have some, like, you have someone that knows a witch, you can get a little enchanted ring. Yeah. So, um, it, and they have the, the option in the Vampire Diary vampires to switch off their humanity. Just click. Don't have that anymore. Which is cool. Very fun device in that show. That's a good narrative device. It lets the good characters become evil and vice versa. Oh, man. Which is really a lot of fun.

[00:48:22] Um, that show is a lot of fun. We were talking about this before we started recording. Vampire, if any of our listeners, if you haven't watched Vampire Diaries and, and you like vampire stuff, it is, it is like if Buffy was a telenovela. It, it, it's so soap opera. There's so much, like, romantic drama and European vampire politics and, like, just, it, it's. And werewolves.

[00:48:52] And werewolves and witches and ghosts. There's all kinds of stuff. But it's fun. It's so entertaining and fun. Damn it. I might have to start a rewatch of that now. It's really, it's highly entertaining. I've been really enjoying it. I waited the right amount of time between when I had watched it when it was originally on and now. Right. Because I forgot tons of it. That's helpful. So, as I watch an episode, I'm like, oh, yeah. Like, it's nice. Oh, goodness. And I'm like, oh, right, Tyler.

[00:49:22] Oh. Oh, Tyler. Yeah. So, Jeremy. Aw, Jeremy. Yeah. Like, the characters are coming back to me. And it's also in classic CW style. It's also just, like, the people on it are so pretty. Oh, yeah. Just the prettiest. Everyone's stunning. Pretty, pretty people. They're so pretty. And, you know, if you don't take it seriously, that's fun to watch. It's not going to give you the social commentary that Buffy has at all.

[00:49:50] It's a much shallower show, but it's really entertaining. It's like diet vampire. Yeah. Like, it's just, it's very palatable. It's just, if you just took, like, the Angel-Buffy relationship and nothing else from Buffy and then made a whole show around it, that's basically what it is. And there's Brothers, you know, a fun pair of Brothers to watch, like, Supernatural vibes-ish. Yep. Good times. Yeah. Around.

[00:50:20] Lots of witchiness. Tons of witches. Yeah. It's really, it's pretty funny. One of my favorite things about it, we were talking about this online, was the town that they live in is this, like, small town in Virginia. And, like, every other week, there's some kind of festival or gala or fundraiser or high school dance, usually with costumes and a theme. So the characters are constantly being like, oh, I have to get out my 60s clothes. Oh, I've got to get out my 70s clothes. Oh, it's time for homecoming. Oh, it's prom. Oh, it's, there's always something.

[00:50:49] Oh, it's the Founders Day Gala. Oh, it's the fundraiser for the Founders Project. Oh, it's, it's every other week that they're in, like, formal attire or a costume. It's a little Star's Hollow-y. It's, it's redonkulous. And, um, and also they, like, constantly sort of gloss over the fact that this town used to be, like, part of the Confederacy. They're always like, oh, and the Founders who were here during the Civil War. It's like, huh. They just, like, gloss right past that part. Always.

[00:51:20] Oh, that show is so much fun. And, and crazy. Um, anyway, back to the topic of souls. I, uh, I, I don't think that this universe is consistent about how it talks about souls. But I, I do like sort of thinking about it for us in the real world. Like, what is our soul? And what does that mean? I know this sounds like a stoner conversation. But, like, seriously, what is a soul? And, and what does it mean? And do you want to lose your soul?

[00:51:49] And I have at times thought that things happening were bad for my soul or good for my soul. Yes. In my own life. And I've had people be like, what are you talking about? Like, souls aren't real. And I'm like, that's interesting. And people are like, aren't you an atheist? And I'm like, yeah. Soul? But the soul to me is a separate question than, and also my atheism isn't, I don't believe that there couldn't possibly be a divine being. My atheism is human-made religions are garbage. Yeah.

[00:52:18] So it's a different kind of atheism. Very different. And I know soul, the concept of a soul isn't, you know, inextricably intertwined with religion to me. And it's, there's a, you know, the conscious, the tie-in with the idea of having a conscience is also fascinating to me. Because it seems like people sometimes use them interchangeably.

[00:52:46] And if you have a soul, you would then, you would think necessarily have a conscience. Because the idea that Angel is saying, like, this is going to hit you, like, you're okay now, but everything is going to come screaming back now that you have a soul and you're going to feel the weight of that. It, I mean, if Darla has a conscience, yes. But if she was a psychopath. Right. In life, then maybe she doesn't.

[00:53:15] And that interplay has always been very interesting to me. It's not like, you know, in theory, every single human being has a soul. Right? Every person born with a soul, we all have a soul. That's at least one of the most prevailing theories. Yeah. But there are human beings in our real world who do horrible things. Horrible things. Really. Repeatedly. And some of them never show remorse, ever, for those horrible things. Yep. So do they not have a soul?

[00:53:45] Or is their soul defective? Do they, is there a way to, like, destroy the conscience part of your soul? Is it not necessarily, is having a soul completely unrelated to having a conscience? Like, I have a lot of questions about that. So interesting. It is a stoner conversation, but I love it. Yeah. It makes you think. There's a reason why stoners like to have stoner conversations. The problem is that they often go off the rails with, like, yeah, and what about crayons? Like, you know. That's funny.

[00:54:15] Oh, man. But it is, like, an age-old question. Yeah. I mean, lots of philosophers have written about this. When I Googled it and went to Wikipedia, the, like, list of references about what is a soul and what does it mean to have a soul was really long. I was like, I can't read all this. I bet. Jeez. And a lot of it was not in English. You know? I was like, ugh. Yeah. And it's every major religion. Like, all of them believe in some version of the soul and some version of when you die,

[00:54:45] it leaves your body behind. Which just makes it seem like it's this inherent part of being human. Separately, all over the globe, people came to the conclusion that there was something akin to a soul in each of us. I think that anyone who has witnessed someone going from alive to dead, like, that transition in any way, shape, or form, and realizing, like, the light has left, right?

[00:55:14] People always describe it like the light left their eyes, the spark left. They weren't there anymore. Yeah. And I think that anyone who witnesses that searches for an explanation. Yeah. And then, sort of over time, that explanation got the name soul. Yeah. In different languages. Well, you know, in terms of neuroscience and study of the brain and neuropsychology,

[00:55:42] there isn't anything that people have really come across that, you know, we can't point to a certain part of the brain and say, this is where your soul is. Right. But there's, it's something apart from that, which is what makes it so interesting. There's the 23 grams experiment where this scientist, I use that word loosely, identified some people who were very, very ill or very, very old and, you know, about to die.

[00:56:12] And when they were close to death, he put them on a scale with their consent, apparently. Put them on a scale and then waited for them to die. So they had the weight measure immediately before and immediately after death. And there was a 23 gram difference. So interesting. Now, people have since like looked through this, and this happened like 150 years ago or something like that. And people have since looked at his research and been like, yeah, he had like five people and it wasn't really scientific.

[00:56:42] And we don't know if those scales were any good. I don't know if anyone's ever tried to recreate this experiment. I have a hard time believing that no one has, but there wasn't anything published. And famously in Ted Lasso, a character was like, whoever did that experiment clearly murdered someone and then waved them right afterward. I was like, that's not necessarily true. You could take someone who was already dying and then do this experiment. But yeah, I immediately thought of the scales at the vet. Oh, the giant ones that they put like Great Danes on. Yeah.

[00:57:11] I was like, that would work. Yeah. I mean, you could weigh a person who's like lying on a gurney. Like you could set that up as a scale or any kind of any, anything could be set up on top of a scale and you could, you know, weigh the person and volunteer for that. And keep, yeah. If I was dying, I'd be like, yeah, okay, whatever. Um, what you need to do. But supposedly, and I know there's a movie that I never saw called 23 grams.

[00:57:35] That's supposed to be about this, but, uh, supposedly the soul weighs 23 grams. That's kind of cool. But that's a rabbit hole for me to go down later on Wikipedia. Yeah. That'll be fun for you. I like it. So whether or not you need a soul to have true happiness in the Buffy verse you do. Yeah. And also to be truly in love.

[00:58:00] Like, I don't think that, I think what Darla and Angelus had was passionate, lustful, connected. Like they had joy in their own way of like enjoyment joy. No. But I don't think it was what I think of as love. No. Well, Darla can't conceive of it either. When she's talking about Buffy. Yeah.

[00:58:27] You know, calling her a cheerleader and being dismissive and essentially saying like you liked her because she was new. And, you know, you just basically traded me in for a younger, newer, whatchamacallit? Model. And just went, thank you. Yeah. Like, what's that word? But she can't fathom what they had because she and Angel never had it. She doesn't know what that means.

[00:58:57] And their bond of, you know, terror, basically being together and getting off on terrorizing other people. It can't be true love. No. There's possessive, you know, like. I think that part of when in the scene where they're like fooling around in front of the upset Drusilla. I don't know if Drusilla's human name was Drusilla. I think she had a different name and Drusilla is her vampire name.

[00:59:27] But anyway. And she's all like snake in the woodshed and all that stuff. The look on Darla's face when he's like, I'm going to turn her. I couldn't decide if it was maybe it was a combination. If it was. That seems like a bad idea. She's crazy pants. Yes. Or. Oh, no. I don't want to have another woman around. Buying for my boy's attention. I don't like how fixated he is on this other person. He belongs to me. Which is not love.

[00:59:57] Even though jealousy can be a part of actual love. But like it was. It's a possessiveness. Yep. Of like he's mine. And you were supposed to just play with this toy. Yes. Not keep it forever. I got. I thought it was a combination of both. Because I mean. Yeah. Drew is a little off the rails. And you can see that already. And Angel drove her even farther off the cliff. But there is that possessiveness.

[01:00:27] And the way Darla is always like my boy. Yeah. She sired him. So there's going to be a little. Possessiveness there. But then we see with. It's kind of implied a few times during the series. That when Angel and Darla and Drew and Spike were together. There was some. Like. That was a polycure. Yeah. Like they were engaging in things all together.

[01:00:56] And in different pairings. So it's just. I don't know. It seems like lust and possessiveness. And a feeling of kind of entitlement. Or having your ego stroked. That this person was into you. Seems to be at the forefront. Of the vampire relations. Without a soul. And Darla just cannot wrap her brain around. Angel feeling happy with Buffy.

[01:01:24] Because she hasn't experienced that. No. She just doesn't know. I don't think at this point. We've had flashbacks about Darla's origin. Hmm. When we get there. We'll talk about that. It will be fun. Her pre-vampire life. Oh Darla. Oh Darla. I also don't think Darla was her human name. I think she had a different name before she turned two. They all seem to change their names. When they become vampires. I get it. It's new life. New you. Yeah. New you. I've changed my name. Why not?

[01:01:54] Just do it. My notes say. Just as a point. Kate and her nonsense. I think we covered it. But I just think it's really funny. That I described it that way. Oh. I just have in all caps. Everybody Wang Chung tonight. Was a perfect choice. That song is ridiculous. It's so funny. And at the end when he's just like I'm very sorry and apologizes to everyone.

[01:02:25] I loved how he didn't quite know the lyrics and he kept getting them a little bit wrong. That was that was quite adorable. And Lorne. I have a clip of Lorne. Tell me about Darla. Oh give me a sec. You are sending out some family size vibes. My villains are still humming. Gosh. Hey Rico. Top off my sea breeze. Win my everlasting devotion huh? You saw something. I saw lots of things. You're at a crucial juncture big guy. So talk. So no. What do you mean no? You won't tell me anything?

[01:02:55] I'll tell you you're headed into trouble. With a capital Trub. Let her go bro. That way lies badness. What do you care? You got murderous demons in here. You give them free advice but you won't help me. Hey. I set people on their paths okay? And this is way off your path sweetie. Go home. That makes sense. Yeah. I love Lorne. And I didn't realize that so no came from this because I have said that a lot of times.

[01:03:24] That's so funny. But I love that first of all that he was like I'll do anything. And then singing Wang Chung Tonight was hilarious. A song that was also humorously used on Veronica Mars. I remember when that song came out and I was like what is this even about? What does that mean? To everybody Wang Chung Tonight?

[01:03:50] And I was a kid so I was like but Wang Chung is the name of the band. Are they saying that? I don't get it. They're the same as I just didn't get it. Now I understand that it's just meant to be about having fun. Having a good time. That's so funny. God Angel looks so uncomfortable too. He really did. Juicy, juicy scene. It's so funny because there are people in the world who love singing karaoke.

[01:04:18] I can't wait to get up there. And then there are people who are like don't you make me sing in front of other people? That would be me. And the divide between those two types of people is vast. I feel like there's a certain drink count where I'm okay with it which is ironic because I did musical theater. Yeah. But now I'm just like nope. Nope. I don't want to do it.

[01:04:46] I used to be a please don't make me sing in front of other people people. And I did a lot of musical theater but I was always a chorus member. I was never a soloist. And I love singing by myself. I'm a car singer. Oh yeah. In the last. Car, shower, good. Yeah. In the last like I don't know like five or ten years I have shed a lot of my insecurities. I just sort of like I was like I'm too old for this now. Like I'm not going to do that anymore.

[01:05:15] So now if there's karaoke I participate. I think it would depend on the people. Like around a bunch of other zeds I feel like I would be good. Yeah. Zed heads. Listeners if you don't know this. Oh yeah. So the group that we're a part of Podcastica, the Podcastica network has a group within a group called the Zed heads. And you get to be a member if you join the Patreon and pay. It's a small amount.

[01:05:44] I think it's like ten dollars a month. Yeah. And then you're in the Zed heads. And then there's all kinds of perks. One of the main ones for me being the social life that surrounds all the different Zed heads. That's how I met Kara. That's how I met Sam. Like all that stuff. And it's really fun. And we have meetups. And at every Zed head meetup I've been a part of there has been karaoke. Nice. I love that. It's very popular in the Zed head community. And it's a very supportive crowd. And it does make it easier to go up and sing in front of people if you're singing in front of the Zeds.

[01:06:14] Because everybody's super supportive. And it's a good time. But I've done it in front of people that I didn't know before. And it was a little terrifying. But I did it. That's fair. And I sing with a band sometimes now too. Which is the most scary thing. That's fun. It's really fun. But it's also like, whoa, I can't believe I'm doing this. That's cool. But it's true. Life's too short. Yeah. To give a crap what other people are thinking.

[01:06:44] Just have fun. Yeah. Just do what you got to do. I also wear two-piece swimsuits now. I'm like, whatever. Nice. I support this. So yeah. So karaoke. Although Angel did look super, super, super uncomfortable. I love that Lauren was like, I'm not going to help you destroy your life, dude. Yeah. It's not unlike when someone you know who has a drug problem is like, can I borrow $100? And you're like, no. Like, no, you may not.

[01:07:12] First of all, borrow is a joke. You're never giving me that money back. And secondly, I'm not going to give you money for drugs, man. Seriously. Like, I'm just not going to. So yeah. I love Lauren. We've been over this. We all love Lauren. He's like, he's such a mensch. And I love the karaoke bar being like a recurring thing on the show because it's nice. It's just, it gives us another location for our people to go.

[01:07:41] It gives us a person who's like wise in some way to give some guidance once in a while. That's helpful. Yeah. And Lauren is just delightful in all his green hornedness. He's so fun. I love him. And his sea breezes. Hilarious. What is in a sea breeze? I think it's like grapefruit juice and club soda. Let's see. I don't know. You look it up. Yeah.

[01:08:09] Vodka, cranberry juice, grapefruit juice, and a lime garnish. That does sound good. I like all these things. I would drink that. But I, yeah, I would drink that. Especially with how hot it is outside right now. That sounds refreshing. Yeah. That's a good summer drink. I had a Bloody Mary today. It was excellent. Oh, those are so good. It was really good. It had two pickles in it. It's awesome. Oh, that's my airport drink. Interesting. Bloody Marys. Every time, every single time I end up getting a Bloody Mary.

[01:08:39] So I will have one on Thursday on my way out to see you and Sam. Awesome. I used to drink them a lot in my 20s because I was broke and I couldn't afford food and alcohol. So a Bloody Mary, at least you get a little food with it. This is true. What did you say? It's like a little appetizer on top. You get a little appetizer with your cocktail. It's perfect. It's perfect. Some of them really go all out too. Yeah.

[01:09:05] I wonder what Angel's signature cocktail would be. I feel like it would be something really old-fashioned and masculine, like a Manhattan. Yeah. It's like either an old-fashioned or a Manhattan. Yeah. Or just like Scotch Neat. Or no, it wouldn't be Scotch. It would be Irish whiskey. Yeah. That'd be good. Neat. Or like Guinness and a shot at Jameson. Mm. Wesley.

[01:09:36] I don't know. Wesley. Wesley seems like he drinks wine. Yeah. I was going to say like a Chardonnay or a really bold cab. I bet he's actually like really knowledgeable about wines. You know, like he's probably got encyclopedic knowledge about wines and he probably like could tell you like by sipping, be like, oh, this is a 97 from the Northern Slopes. Like he's one of those. I love that. That is headcanon.

[01:10:04] We know that Giles is a whiskey man. Yes. We see him. Yeah. Quite a bit. And Spike is a whiskey drinker too. Yeah. But he also likes beer. Mm-hmm. And like a, I don't know, like a Boddington, some sort of British beer. Yeah. Smittix. Yep. Something party. Yeah. I like it. And I feel like, uh, Harmony is like a Pina Colada.

[01:10:33] Oh my God. Cosmos. Or Cosmo, Appletini, Pina Colada, and Daiquiri. Like that range of. Yeah. The, the, the, the stereotypical girly drinks. Yes. Yeah. Um. Yeah. I think you're right about that. They all need to go to Lauren's. Yeah. Together. Yeah. Just hang out. See what happens. I feel like Cordelia is not a drinker. No. But she's like, oh, that's unnecessary calories. And I don't like for my head to be clouded. That.

[01:11:04] Yeah. For sure. Yeah. Um. And Kate learned a long time ago to drink like a guy. So she drinks like, like middle of the road beer. Yeah. And doesn't like it. No. Yeah. No. Oh man. You are welcome. If you're wrong, please write in and tell us what you think all of our characters would drink. I also would love to hear from listeners about which variety of vampire they'd like to be. Yes. I'm very curious.

[01:11:34] And the reasoning behind that, there are more ways you can be killed as a vampire diaries vampire. I feel like, like if you're getting decapitated, you can be set on fire. Decapitation seems to work in all of the vampire universes. Yeah. Cause that's, that's true on supernatural. That's true on Buffy. That's true. And in Twilight, they have to burn them. Yeah. You have to be burned. Even if you're.

[01:12:00] But apparently they're super flammable because when they do go to burn a vampire in that show, it's like they touch them with a torch and that's it. They're done. That's true. I'm like, how could you ever go near fire if you're that flammable? It's like they're made out of paper. It's ridiculous. That would be risky. But yeah. And like the interview with the vampire vampires beheading works on them as well. Oh yeah. Yeah. And sunlight is pretty universal except not in Twilight. You just sparkle. It just makes them sparkly, but not consistently.

[01:12:30] No. And yeah. So yeah. Any other vampires on the strain? On the strain, do they? Oh yeah. Does sunlight work? I think so. I think so. Except not if they're like super. There's like different types of vampires on the strain. There are some that are more powerful than others. True. And I am legend. Do those count as vampires-ish? There's a whole like debate about the I am legend like viral creatures and whether

[01:13:00] or not they're zombies, whether or not they're vampires. I think they're closer to vampires than zombies. Or something else entirely. Yeah. And in the passage, the vampires are susceptible to sunlight unless they're like the oldest ones. That's interesting. Yeah. I'm curious what other people would choose. Yeah. I definitely would not pick the strain. Those vampires are gross. They're disgusting. No, thank you. No.

[01:13:30] Blech. Don't look at that. Yeah. It seems like Vampire Diaries, they get to live the most like close to a normal life but have the fun of superpowers. Yeah. I'd be good with that. And if you just kind of like stay out of people's way. Yeah. You're fine. You're fine. You could just party and have a good time. Oh, goodness. As many of them do until they get mixed up in teen romance. They always go out with teenage girls. It's like stay away from the teenage girls.

[01:13:59] What are you doing at high school? Stop going to high school. That's the funniest thing. Like as a vampire, the last thing I want to do is be perpetually attending high school. Yeah. At least go to college. Right? That could be fun. And go to different colleges and learn different things. Like how many times can you learn like RNA is the messenger of the cell? Like, no, I would go insane. Mighty mitochondria. Yeah. No, no, no, no. No, thank you.

[01:14:27] Oh, here's the sanitized version of U.S. history where. Yeah. No, thank you. No. Just live in Oxford and attend every class I could possibly. Yeah. I would just go from college to college. They're always fabulously wealthy in these stories too, which I love. That is true. We mean, you have a lot of time to accumulate wealth. Yeah. Diversify your portfolio. Inherit it.

[01:14:52] I think Cordy brings it up in season one of Angel when she's like, how are you 300 or 200 years old and you're poor? Like, you didn't figure out how to make money by now? And like, I kind of agree with her. Like, all you had to do was like buy some land once. Like, what? True. Or like accumulate gold over time. Yeah. Anything. Collect jewelry. I don't know. Yeah. Like, there's so many ways.

[01:15:22] If you have unlimited time, there's so many ways. And you don't need to like buy yourself food and stuff. And you are vampires. You don't care about stealing and murdering. There are so many ways to get rich. Man. Anyway. Anyway. I enjoyed the dig at religion in the beginning of the episode when, when Cordy has her vision and she's like, I think their followers are, its followers are human and they're fighting over how to worship it.

[01:15:51] And Angel's like, whoa, that's why I rarely go to church. Yeah. And I was like, me too. Oh, that was perfect. I was like, yep. Yep. That's why I rarely go to church is because I think a lot of it is just human politics. Yeah. And coping mechanisms. Yeah. Anyway, I don't want to offend people. People. I felt bad for Charisma Carpenter in the waitress outfit where she said, seemed to say to so many conventioneers, pet me. I am a whore.

[01:16:21] Pet me, I am a whore. Oh, that's terrible. But also spot on. Yeah. Because that outfit was meant to make people think that. Yeah. And I just hated that she had to wear it. Even though like the whole scene at the hotel of the surveillance was pretty hilarious. Like. Yeah. It's just. It's such overkill. Terrible. Unnecessary. She was just like, you can't talk like that. You know, we have this paying customer.

[01:16:50] Oh, I love when the guy was like, do you think my wife is cheating on me? Yes, probably. Yeah. I had a friend who had this horrible boyfriend that I couldn't stand. And all the time she'd be like, do you think that he might be cheating on me? And I'd be like, yes. Yes. Yes, I do. And like, I try not to tell people who they should and shouldn't date. But like, this guy was so bad that I was like, he's awful. We hate him. Dump him. Like, he was just awful.

[01:17:19] And she'd be like, do you think he might be cheating on me? I'd be like, everyone thinks he's definitely cheating on you. Like, I'm not going to play this game. You ask me directly. I'm going to tell you. Yeah. Like, especially if I think it is something that is actively harmful to you. Like, I'm not going to pretend anymore. Like, I stopped being willing to like, socialize with him. I was like, no, I won't go to that thing. I mean, that's hard. Like, he's awful. And sometimes, I mean, people just have to see it for themselves. Yeah.

[01:17:49] He was one of those people that like, always thought that women were trying to baby trap him and gold dig. And I was like, you don't have any gold. I was like, what? Gold dig what? Who would try to trap him? I don't care about your PlayStation 4. I don't understand. Your baseball cards aren't actually worth anything, dude. Oh, man. No one's trying to gold dig you. Yeah. Good times. Yeah.

[01:18:19] I'm so glad she eventually left that guy. Yay. Let's move on to some pop culture and not pop culture references. So first up, Wesley mentions the fictional characters of Sherlock Holmes and Philip Marlowe as an example of great and eccentric detectives. Kate refers to her new desk at the police department as Siberia.

[01:18:48] And Siberia is a remote region of Russia that is known for having penal labor camps in the Soviet Union. And I think still. And it's like, it's also very cold there and like not a lot of natural like resources. It's meant to be pretty bleak. It's kind of I kind of love that description for like a desk off to the side with like the air conditioning loud and rumbling right above you or something. Yeah. Yeah. That checks out.

[01:19:16] And then finally Cordelia compares Angel and Darla to the criminal criminal couple Bonnie and Clyde who committed a series of criminal acts like robbing banks, kidnappings and murders between 1932 and 1934. Yes. Famously played in the movie by Faye Dunaway and Warren Beatty. Right. I think so. Yeah. That's right. Moving on to a little bit of trivia.

[01:19:46] I love this part. Cordelia says that Angel is 248. He corrects her to 247. And this indicates that Angel is counting his years, his age from the day he was sired and not including the hundred years spent in a Catholic hell dimension in 1753. He was already. Wait. I'm going to say that in a different way. Yeah.

[01:20:14] Cordelia says that Angel is 248 years old and he corrects her to saying that he is only 247. And this indicates that Angel is counting from the day he was sired back in 1753 when he was 26 years old. And he's not including the hundred years that he spent in a Catholic hell dimension. Yes. Which helps me a lot because I'm always like, wait, what about the hundred years in a Catholic hell dimension?

[01:20:43] So I just like that we've written it down now and I can like stop worrying about it so much. So it's two. He's really 247 plus 26 plus 100. But for whatever reason, he's not counting all those things. Yeah. That's pretty funny. He's like, no, I am not. Don't pre-age me. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Okay. All right, man. It's like when you ask a little kid their age and you're like, oh, so you're seven and they're like seven and a half. Yep.

[01:21:12] You're like, okay. Or when people are like, how old are you? You're about 60. It's like, I'm 59. Yeah. I am not there yet. I'm not there yet. Yeah. Oh, man. I'm not there yet, by the way. I'm not 60. Um, Kate sends a police SWAT team to search the Hyperion Hotel. In real life, the Ambassador Hotel is in place for the Hyperion. That it was used as a training ground for police SWAT team exercises. So. That makes sense.

[01:21:42] There's a lot of rooms to check out. Yeah. A lot of things to do. Interesting. So Kara, does it still slay? I would say yes. Any episode with Darla and Angel together is, I'm probably going to say it's still sleighs, but I think this is one of the better episodes that we've seen so far. And I love what it sets up for the future. What about you? Yeah. This is a sleigh.

[01:22:10] This is definitely an episode I would never skip. Yes, for sure. There are so many elements about it I love. And, and I'm like you, I love where it's going. I love Angel and Darla together. It's so fun. So excited. Well, that is the end of the main section of the podcast today. And you should stay tuned for The Watcher's Diaries if you want to hear the spoilery discussion. And if you'd like to join the conversation, you can find all of our contact information

[01:22:39] at podcastica.com and in the show notes for each episode. Also at podcastica.com, you'll find links to our social media pages and all of our other shows. So what else are you watching, reading, listening to lately? I mean, um, Cape Fear on Apple. My mom and I have been watching that and the finale came out this past Friday. And I don't know what to do with myself now.

[01:23:09] That was very intense, but very good. And Silo is the new season. They're in season three right now. And new episodes come out every Friday. And I am going nuts having to wait. Yeah. This one, for whatever reason, this one in particular, I am not doing well with having to wait week by week. And I have been Googling fan theories and all sorts of stuff in between to tide me over. What about you?

[01:23:38] I have also been watching Silo and enjoying that quite a lot. House of the Dragon and Vampire Diaries, as we talked about. I saw the new Spider-Man movie yesterday. Very nice. And it was super entertaining and fun. Very in line with all of the MCU movies and the quality of the previous Spider-Man movies. I really, really liked it a lot. And I am reading Dungeon Crawler Carl. That's right. Which has been recommended to me by so many people.

[01:24:08] So I'm starting to really get into that. It's hard. It's hard. I don't find a lot of time to read. Yeah. So I only do it like a few pages a day. So it's going to take me a while to get through the book. And there's like eight books. But one of these days I'll get some time to read and I'll plow through them. And that'll be awesome. That'll be nice. We're reading binge. Yep. And as always, if you like what we do here, give us a five-star rating, a review, or a like, follow, and subscribe.

[01:24:37] And tune in next time when we'll be covering Buffy Season 5, Episode 5, No Place Like Home. Thanks, everyone. And vampires don't come back from the dead. I did. And I saw her. I'm not crazy. Where? Right between the clowns and the big talking hot dog. You're not crazy, though. Don't. No. No, of course not. All right. That is the end of the non-spoiler section.

[01:25:03] If you want to avoid spoilers, you should stop listening right now. It's too bad we can't sneak a look at the Watcher Diaries and read up on Angel. So I'm sure it's full of fun facts to know and tell. Yeah. That's too bad. That stuff is private. Also, Giles keeps them in his office in his personal files. Most importantly, it would be wrong.

[01:25:35] So I don't think we've seen this flashback yet. I get a little jumbled in my head about the order of things, but I don't think we have seen yet that before she was a vampire, Darla was a sex worker in colonial, I think, Virginia. But I'm not sure about that. But it was definitely like colonial times in the U.S. And she has syphilis and she's dying and the master comes to her and changes her.

[01:26:02] And so who she was before she was a vampire was definitely someone who knew how to be seductive and sexy and had a lot of different sexual partners that she didn't love, probably. Right. And she definitely, from what I do remember, she's not a huge fan of organized religion either. No. Because they were mean to her when she was a sex worker. Yeah. Just terrible.

[01:26:33] And so she was sort of like, well, this is better. Like, I can kill people instead of being treated like garbage. And she is like 100 or 200 years older than when she sired, like when she sired Angel, she was already, she'd already been a vampire for a long time. And she was beholden to the master. At some point, she takes Angelus to meet the master. Oh, yeah.

[01:27:00] And he's like, so this is your new boy, huh? Like. It's like, hey, dad. Yeah. This is the guy I'm dating. And he's like, I don't know. It's a very like typical sort of dynamic that they have there, which is pretty funny. I love getting Darla's backstory. Pretty soon coming up, there's going to be the double episode where we do the two different flashbacks. Like Boxer Rebellion. Yeah. In China. Yeah. With.

[01:27:30] So good. When Spike kills the Chinese Slayer and Angel is trying to still hang with the vampires, even though he has a soul back and he's all like pretending to be evil. Yeah. It's really fun. And Darla is like, this is gross. I hate this. Yeah. I hate you with a soul. This is disgusting. Get out of my face. This is so funny. She's just repulsed. Yeah. By it. She talked about it with Lindsay in this episode when she was like, she says like, you don't think about people you want to have revenge on. You think about missed opportunities.

[01:27:59] And she's like, when Angel got his soul, I was repulsed and I rejected him. But she doesn't say like, and I regret that. Like she just sort of implied. Yeah. Yep. Um. Jeez. But I think she did regret that because like, then she had to spend the next hundred years like alone. Mm hmm. I mean, she clearly missed him. Yeah. She clearly felt something when they were no longer together. And whether it was, you know, I'm sure it was stunted. Yeah.

[01:28:29] But still. And then she went back, eventually went back to the master, but he was at that by then he was like stuck in the hell mouth and Sunnydale. Jeez. Very different. Yeah. Not as fun. Not as fun as ranging all over the planet, hunting with your handsome lover. Like that's way more fun than hanging out with gross old creepy master. Jeez. Like I take evil David Boreanaz over the master any day. That's true. They just, gosh, they have so much history together.

[01:28:58] It's hard to keep it all straight. Yeah. I can't remember a ton of it, which is nice. It'll be nice to relive it and watch it. Yeah. We can discover it.

[01:29:37] Yeah. Like this moment where Angel is like, huh, good to know. Yeah. Gun never. He doesn't let down his guard again after this. Like, I think he was starting to like, be like, oh, this is, this is a good vampire. And now he's like, oh, there's a, there's a catch. And I have to. There's a catch here. I can never let down my guard. There's a catch here. Which after what he's been through, you can't really blame him.

[01:30:07] And they, honestly, they need someone around like that. Yeah. And like, he's not the only one. Cordy keeps like weapons in her desk and stuff. Like she's, she's very aware of what can happen if Angel goes bad. She's always prepared. That would be so terrifying. I, it's, I can't imagine living day in and day out with somebody that could turn and kill me.

[01:30:33] But then I remember that like people in real life live in those situations all the time. All the time. Yeah. With like abusive, like people in their families or like incredibly dangerous, like work environments, or they live in war zones where they could get killed or they're enslaved or they're, you know, there's so many scenarios where people have to live their life in constant danger and they just have to find a way to do it. That is their reality. It's horrible. It's terrible. Cordy and Wes at least have a choice. Yeah.

[01:31:03] That is true. They are informed. They know what's at risk. And like if either of them, if either of them was like, I'm done, I'm leaving. Angel would let them. Yeah. He might be sad. Yeah. And Jealous wouldn't let them. He'd kill them. But Angel would let them. I don't know if the powers that be would let Vision Cordy like off the hook so easily. Yeah. Like she'd still get visions.

[01:31:30] Like it would be a pretty miserable existence to get the visions and then not be like, go get them the way she is all the time now. But if it was just Angel, he would let them leave. He's not an abuser in that way. He's not like trapping them. But it is like living with constant danger. And that's terrifying. Ugh. We'll see how that turns out. Yeah, seriously.

[01:31:54] I, um, it's funny, you know, I follow a lot of people on, on like Instagram that are Buffy fans and, and they're all at different places in their own rewatches. And some of them were, somebody was recently talking about the episode where Cordy and Connor get together. Oh. And they were like, why? Why would they do this to us? Why? And I was like, oh yeah. When we get there, we're going to have to have that conversation. Yeah. It's pretty awful. Like, oh, it's horrible. She's like, great. Great.

[01:32:25] I don't love it. Yeah. Ugh. All right. I think we've done it. Yeah. That is the complete end of our show. Thanks for listening, everyone. And until next time, I'm Penny. And I'm Kara. Keep slaying.

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