294 "The Black Cat (The Fall of the House of Usher E4)

[00:00:01] Hmm? Ah! Huh. Podcastica! Hey everybody, I'm Rima. And I'm Pake. And this is Strange Indeed, a podcast dedicated to the Netflix show The Fall of the House of Usher. And this week we are covering episode four, The Black Cat.

[00:00:32] Oh, The Black Cat. We finally kind of get some insight as to Mike Flanagan's obsession? Question mark? I don't know. With cats. I did see a thing online though where he did answer, people were asking about that and he was just like, Uh huh.

[00:00:52] No, I love cats! He was telling a story of a childhood cat and stuff that he had and he's just like, But I'm telling horror stories and this is a very effective way I know how. Yep, that is true. That is true.

[00:01:07] Yeah, I tease but because this also, you know, in reference to Poe, this is also referencing Poe's work so it's not all Mike Flanagan. But, I don't know. What did you think about this week's episode? Pake, did you like it?

[00:01:24] Um, I did. I don't think I liked it as much as I did last week's. At least not on first watch. However, watching it again today and really breaking it down and taking notes, I enjoyed it a lot more on second watch.

[00:01:39] Yeah, I noticed a lot more little nuances and things on the second watch that made me appreciate it even more. And we were just talking before we started recording about just like dark comedy and dark humor.

[00:01:53] And there's a lot of it in this episode that you really pick up on. There is and I know we're going to talk about it and I love that he, Mike Flanagan, leaves space in his stories for some of that dark humor. Yeah.

[00:02:11] And I don't think it was as dark and gruesome as what this series has been so far in just these first four episodes. I'm glad that we're getting a little bit of that humor, some things that make me laugh even if they're dark and morbid.

[00:02:25] And I'm sure, hopefully at least some of our audience because I know a lot of folks out there love the same things that we do. Also enjoyed as well. Yeah, I'm with you. I think it took me the second watch to fully appreciate it.

[00:02:39] It wasn't that I didn't like it. It was just like, hmm, I need to sit with it a little bit and picking up on some of those things that you don't notice or you didn't realize maybe meant something or how it ties into the story as much.

[00:02:57] And unless you're watching it that second time. That's one of the benefits of, you know, we get to have is podcasting. I don't know how if other people are like, oh, I watched it once. I'm also going to watch it twice.

[00:03:09] I don't know if people do that outside of just their regular watches. Sometimes I do that when I'm just watching a show and not always covering it sometimes. But I know I do whenever I'm podcasting and it really does help you pick up on some of those things.

[00:03:22] So this week was all focused on Leo Usher or Raul Coley. I was, you know, as we talked about last week, seeing Kate Segal going and I don't know if we'll have any flashbacks with her in it or something like that.

[00:03:41] Or if she's just, you know, that's all that we'll see of her up to episode three. But I was really kind of sad because you and I, of course, are big Raul Coley fans. Yeah. So I was kind of bummed.

[00:03:55] I'm like, oh, episode four, you know, we've got eight episodes and he's already gone. So I was kind of bummed about that. But, you know, that's OK. We'll talk it out maybe. Well, it'll be our therapy session. Yeah. We'll deal with it.

[00:04:13] Yeah, because it seems to be kind of the formula or vibe of this show is what to expect. So, you know, everybody gets their episode to really shine. And I won't say too much now.

[00:04:24] I did last week because, you know, we're like, oh, next week it's the Black Cat. And I was like, well, there goes Raul Coley. Yeah, I caught it. So again, at the end of the episode, we'll talk about next week.

[00:04:34] But looking at the title of next week's episode, I'm like, I have a feeling I already know again. I can predict kind of where we're going to shine. And I'm OK with that, too, as far as like, yep, it's time for that person's episode as well.

[00:04:45] So it'll be cool to see. It's their turn. Yeah, I agree. I agree. All right. Well, let's go ahead and start talking about our points this week. Do you want to start us off with your first one? Sure.

[00:05:00] Start with speaking about some of the comedy, but then other stuff. Just start kind of broad with like the aftermath of the death of Camille and kind of the family dynamic and them looking for answers.

[00:05:15] And then really focusing on Roderick and Madeline as well as maybe some of the answers that they have found, but they don't want to talk about. Yeah. So yeah, so we of course, the first thing we see is Leo getting the phone call.

[00:05:30] Where you can't hear his father on the other end, but he's like, no, she's not. You know, that whole denial where you know he's getting the call about Camille dying. But then they get the whole family together. And of course the bounty is brought up.

[00:05:43] Vic says that, well, that's why Camille was at the lab in the first place. It's because this bounty you put on us and she's shifting that blame in that direction. Which she has some interesting back and forths with Roderick, but I'm sure we'll talk about those maybe later.

[00:05:58] Leo hates this statement that he's supposed to give about Camille. Like they give him this like pre-written thing. And you're going to go out and heartfully, you know, oh, I'm saddened. It's like saddened? No, that's not what I would do.

[00:06:13] Which I like Roderick, he's like put it in your own words. He goes, plagiarized Candle in the Wind. Which is like, yeah, maybe you could make it 5,000 times better than Candle in the Wind. What's that?

[00:06:25] I think that's the second Parks and Rec reference I've had in like just as many episodes. And then there's the really great comedy that they interjected in with Arthur. As they're going through the security footage at the lab. And he's having to explain security camera tech to Roderick.

[00:06:44] He goes, why is there no audio? And it's like, well, that's not really a thing typically with security cameras. And he's like, you know, he takes a moment and he's looking at it and he goes, enhance. And he goes, that's also really not a thing. So good.

[00:06:58] I see it on TV all the time. Which, that's funny. But yeah, they have this random woman who definitely should not be at the Rue morgue. And I feel like even in that moment Roderick and Madeline are secretly trying to communicate with each other.

[00:07:15] That they're questioning, like, is this what we think it could be? Is this Verna? Is this, you know, there's a lot of things going on. Is this a conspiracy? Is this Verna? You know, they're not saying anything outright.

[00:07:29] I guess it's secret enough they're not saying anything in front of Arthur, Pam. It's like the one thing Arthur does not know about in their lives is this Verna situation, it seems.

[00:07:39] And they're kind of putting those pieces together, coinciding with the mystery woman that appeared at Perry's cuddle puddle, is it? Ugh, puddle indeed. Yeah. But yeah, so I enjoyed that scene and then the next time we see Arthur, of course, late to court.

[00:07:58] Which is leading Augie to do his usual foot-in-mouth routine. Which is interesting to see the different versions of Dupin. From this to the flashbacks. Where clearly he's a great lawyer, typically. He's incredibly good at what he does.

[00:08:14] But this family and this case has just thrown him off his game in all the worst ways. Like he's just, he's completely lost all decorum almost. Like he's still professional but he's saying things that he probably knows he shouldn't say.

[00:08:29] Or he's doing things that he usually wouldn't do, I feel. And then Arthur's late, of course, due to Camille's death. And I like the judge saying, And I was like, well if Derna has anything to say in the matter,

[00:08:42] I'm gonna say there's gonna be disruption between now and Monday. I think so. There will be further. We can count on further disruption. Yes. And then Madeline, I guess, has a guy who somehow managed to make the fictional film trope of enhanced image a reality.

[00:08:59] Because they've got the picture that she sends to Roderick and they're looking at that and it's a really good picture. Because they've got the picture that she sends to Roderick and they're looking at that and yeah, they're definitely familiar with that face. Verna.

[00:09:12] And you kind of see, again, they don't really say much of anything but there's this, does that look familiar? And then there's this unspoken kind of connection between them and I think it's confirmed for sure that they're on that right track because then the next thing Madeline does

[00:09:25] is have her drive her taker to the location of the bar that they spent that fated New Year's Eve night in where they met Verna and whatever deal or whatever happened. But when she gets there, of course, it's this just abandoned, run-down old place.

[00:09:40] I don't even see a door anywhere on it. It's just like this brick wall that's got boards and stuff on it. And then a raven on the wall. A painted one and then a real one later. Of course. Yeah. Speaking of brick walls,

[00:09:55] while Roderick is looking at that picture himself, he's down in the Fortunato basement with some clinking sounds going on behind the brick wall down there. Sounded like some bells. And is he really hearing them? We know he has a tendency with his illness to hear or see things.

[00:10:23] I wonder how real that is or whatever. But clearly it's something. Yeah. We've speculated on that a few times, seeing where things are going. I might have some more clues to that also in later notes. Agreed. I thought it was interesting.

[00:10:41] I enjoyed just kind of like there's a little humor set in, but also kind of pushing forward that story of like Roderick and Madeline are definitely learning things. They're trying to gather information on a different level than anybody else is.

[00:10:54] They know things and are privy to things that nobody else is. I agree. Well, in talking about, I'll just kind of add to what you're saying because it kind of leads into my first point. When we're dealing with the aftermath of Camille's death

[00:11:17] and Roderick is at the head of the table and he's tired of the bickering between the kids and pointing the fingers and everyone's just kind of like, I'm not doing this. I'm not doing that. He tells them, he's like, we're at battle stations. I'm the commanding officer.

[00:11:38] I don't want to hear anything, but sir, yes, sir. And we see where that originated. That's what he tells his family to keep them in line. Like you're going to tow the line. You're going to do what Maddie tells you to do.

[00:11:51] I don't care if she tells you to fart in a microphone. That was funny. Which also feels like a Griswold reference because he said stuff like that too. Like the fart references and stuff kind of seems like a Gris thing.

[00:12:04] Yeah, so that's where I was kind of going with that. It's like, so we hear this come from Roderick, but then in the flashback, this is what Griswold tells this younger Roderick in these flashbacks. After Roderick comes to him about and questioning like,

[00:12:23] what the hell is my signature doing on these papers? He did not sign them. Someone forged them. And clearly this whole situation is very problematic. Finding out whenever he meets Dupin for the first time and hears about these clinical trials.

[00:12:38] And it's interesting how in both of these scenarios back in the flashbacks, Fortunato's going through this big PR interview and they've got this issue. They've got Dupin and his investigation breathing down their necks about these clinical trials and they're trying to make that go away.

[00:13:02] And then in present day, they're still going through a crisis with them being on trial and these lawsuits and such. But then also now they have family members that seem to be dropping left and right and these deaths that are strange, can't quite be explained.

[00:13:21] And they don't, I mean, it's pretty odd, right? To have two siblings die within just like a few days of each other and in these really weird things. So both times the company and the family is going through these kind of crises

[00:13:34] and you have the CEO of its time trying to keep everyone, you know, keeping everyone toe of the line, right? And so now they're in this kind of and I feel like it's kind of sad to see how Roderick has basically become a replica.

[00:13:50] Like he's like verbatim quoting Griswold instead of going the other way. I mean, we saw how much, I think anyway, that Roderick really hated his boss, you know, and he was like, I'm not gonna go to jail for this. And so now he's like,

[00:14:09] I'm not gonna go to jail for this. And so now he's like, you know, for what he stood for, how he talks to him, how he's manipulating him, how he's in the position that he thinks he should be in as far as like running the company.

[00:14:24] And we've gotten these hints that Madeline and Roderick seem to be responsible, you know, for something that's happened to him. You know, I mean, we don't know, but something called a murder clearly had to have happened. You know, all the hints are there. So it's,

[00:14:46] it sucks I think to see how he's become just like him. Yeah. Which is a bummer. So I don't know, just seeing those two comparisons and kind of seeing the similarities but then also the differences, but mostly the similarities that Roderick is,

[00:15:05] you know, it seems like he took on a lot of his mannerisms. I think that's the thing that's really interesting about episode two because the Roderick, young Roderick that we see seems so chill and laid back, a good guy and caring. And the Roderick we see today

[00:15:27] just you don't really see a hint of that man anymore. At least I haven't seen it yet. I don't think anyway. So kind of sad to see that he's went down that path. Because you mentioned like the Sir Yes Sir and like the kind of war, you know,

[00:15:43] where on the front lines or I'm the captain. But there's also, he says, where a wall. That's just another one of those like references. Oh yeah. I mean, they're kind of beating us over the head with it at this point. Right. I got it. Brick by brick.

[00:16:00] We're getting it. Yep. What's your next point? Actually it is, I want to go back down and talk about the flashback. The young Roderick flashback because it's kind of become like a staple. It's like, yeah, we're going to get like a really cool flashback with that.

[00:16:19] Go for it. And I'm going to talk about it. And I'm just happy to talk about that. Right. Yeah. So, yeah, of course you mentioned, yeah, that there's this like seeing it's like I want to call it the like present but not really because it's still a flashback.

[00:16:35] If you look at the conversation between Roderick and DuPain as the present, then even the stuff with the family is like a flashback. But then it's a further flashback in a flashback. My brain hurts. It's hard to keep straight. Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, as I mentioned, we see

[00:16:51] kind of the differences or the similarities with Roderick in those two timelines. So I mentioned that. But yeah, the flashback itself was interesting because we learned more about how far back Roderick and DuPain really do go. That of course we know we had established in a previous episode

[00:17:06] that yeah, Augie is was looking into Fortunato way back then when Griswold was in charge. But then we see that he goes to Roderick to get answers and then reveals to Roderick through that that Fortunato is using him as a fall guy,

[00:17:20] whether he knew that's what he was revealing to him or not. Roderick learns that through that with those signatures. You mentioned that his his signature is being used without him knowing somebody's forging his signature on things. That way, if something does go wrong, it's like, oh, yeah, well

[00:17:35] this this guy down in the mail room was the one signing off on it. So, you know, can him. Which then when Roger goes to talk to Griswold about this, he explains it away or kind of makes it OK because he's like, well, now I see the potential

[00:17:48] in you. So that we did that before I knew that you were an asset. So now we can make those things go away and all that legal nonsense. Who cares? And he's hitting with all this team player stuff and the Sir Yes, Sir, and

[00:18:01] plays to his sense of success talking about, well, you see the fancy car that I drive and if you continue to be a team player, you can have that and so much more. You know, I like the I'm the Candyman, right? I'm Willie Funkin, I'm Willie

[00:18:14] fucking Wonka, and this is my chocolate factory and you just got the golden ticket. Stick around. This could all be yours, Charlie Bucket. It's very I like that reference, but. And then you see there in that moment, Roderick's doing a really good job at playing along.

[00:18:30] He's like, oh, yeah, yeah, that makes sense. Yes, sir. Yes, sir. I'm a good player. I'm a team player and I'll do whatever it takes. But especially when he goes back home, we see that he's pissed like he is losing patience with Griswold day by day.

[00:18:46] But to kind of backtrack a little bit, we see that when Dupin brings this up to him, Roderick smart, you know, he's always been smart. He may have been nicer, kinder, but he's always had that really smart sense about him to where he's like, I don't

[00:19:02] recall if I did or didn't sign these papers, at least not right now. He knows what's at stake, that he's going to have to confront Griswold first before making this huge decision about how to proceed with the information because. Yeah, if he goes, you know, if

[00:19:18] he gets canned, he loses his career. He knows that that's not something he's just going to dive right into and Dupin understand what's going on, too. He knows that Roderick is smart enough not to, you know, torch his entire career. But I mentioned earlier,

[00:19:32] I was like, we know that Dupin is a really good, you know, investigator and lawyer and like what he's what he does. And we see that here is he has this Sherlock level deduction skills, which if I remember correctly, Poe wrote the character of August Dupin

[00:19:45] before Sherlock existed. So he's kind of the pre Sherlock. Right. Yeah. Well, he inspired some of the modern day detective stories like he inspired those those stories. So, yeah, I think I pointed that out in another episode. Yeah. But we see those deductions skills at play where he's

[00:20:04] while he's just sitting in the kitchen with Roderick and Annabelle, he's deducting things about their income level and the dedication they have to their kids. And they even like looks, I was like, oh, you have another kid. It's an older boy. But what I can tell right now

[00:20:15] he's asleep in the one bed that you all share sleeping off a sickness because he was up all night. You were up with him dealing with it. He's really good at just piecing things together. So we see the level of talent that he has.

[00:20:29] And he's also a very good lawyer. But then Roderick and Annabelle are kind of arguing over what to do. Where Annabelle saying you need to quit, it's a terrible company. It's going to lead you down a bad path. And he's kind of on the other end

[00:20:41] wondering, well, maybe now that I'm part of the club, will it be worth it in the end? It'll all pay off in the long run. And I can I can run this thing the right way sometime in the future. And then that's when we get the

[00:20:52] reveal that Madeline's been in the room the whole time and leave it to her to just spell it out. You know, she's like, you're never going to be the guy. You're going to forever be the whipping boy in this company. You know, your time to

[00:21:04] do anything important with them has passed right now. But if you also just bailed another company, you're not going to be trusted. You're never going to get to that level anywhere else. So she tells him his only play is what she did to their former foster parent

[00:21:18] that we got in that background story last week or two weeks ago where she's like, play along, be the good boy, be the company pet. And then once you've earned the trust and hold it up, you're the trust and holding all the secrets and all the dirt.

[00:21:32] You just bear all that weight and you hold all onto it. And then you once you built a nice collection, yeah, as an informant, you give all of that in order right there to your new best friend, Mr. August DuPan. You know, that's interesting because I was

[00:21:51] curious if that's what she was referring to because that's how I read it. Well, and that makes sense. That was definitely going to be my question to you was, is that what her plan is? You know, you're going to do all these things and then you're

[00:22:06] going to give a call to your new friend, August DuPan. I'm like, OK, why is are they looking to somehow put all of I mean, it is his fault. I mean, I feel like Griswold knows about everything that's going on and probably in deep and either knows

[00:22:26] everything, planned everything, what have you about August DuPan, who's been looking after all of all of these clinical trials and everything that DuPan is investigating. But I'm like, is that what they're going to do is try to get and gather all that information? And then Roderick's going to

[00:22:42] turn around as an informant to him and then somehow that's somehow be able to get control of the company or something. I don't know. Yeah. But OK, that that makes sense. Yeah, that's that's how I read into it. She's telling him to do that. But

[00:22:59] I think that's in the end because DuPan is still after them and they're at the head of the company. And I think they they took a different route. We've gotten some hints to but yes, I feel like they probably did take a different route.

[00:23:12] But I think that's what their plan is for the moment. Yeah, that that makes sense. Yeah, I like I liked the monologue from DuPan get another another little monologue. And so it was glad to get that flashback because I think we talked about I think in the

[00:23:37] first episode when Roderick and DuPan are first meeting there in their the Usher's childhood home there. And I'm like, gosh, it just feels like they've known each other for a while. The way they speak to each other, the familiarity, it didn't seem formal, you know, by any means.

[00:23:57] So you can tell that there was, you know, a history between those two. And we got to see that. Yeah. So I'm interested to see what it looks like after after that. I mean, clearly they're on other sides of the story, you know,

[00:24:18] from where Usher is and to where DuPan is. And yeah, he later ends up going after him as head of the Fortunato company. But it looks like they could have like in another life been friends. Yeah. Well, I want to talk a little bit about Leo Usher

[00:24:42] like Camille and Perry. We haven't gotten a lot of time with him and we got a little bit more in, you know, I think in each episode we're kind of getting a little bit more insight into some of the siblings. So we got a little bit more

[00:24:59] about him than maybe Perry or Camille. But there's still a lot we don't know. But I think that's what's going on. But I think what makes Leo a little different than at least so far, again, only up to episode four at this point. So I've, you know, still

[00:25:16] have limited knowledge of the other siblings too. But so far from what I'm seeing, he seems to be about the only person that cares about his other siblings deaths and was really impacted by them. Mm hmm. The others are still very much

[00:25:33] locked up into their like how it affects them, how it affects the company. You know, Tammy's like, well, I've got a launch to deal with and, you know, and Freddie is, of course, worried about his wife, which fair, you know, that's valid. But, you know, and everyone's

[00:25:51] just kind of like, you know, more about the inconvenience that this causes them versus, you know, any kind of empathy or sadness about having lost a sibling. But he seems to genuinely care and he seemed to care about Perry too when he got that news.

[00:26:09] And he seems like he had empathy, even just maybe a little, which is more than I think his other siblings have. He does seem to have just a little bit of empathy for other people too, just outside of the family. He also seems to be more likable

[00:26:25] compared to the other siblings. I mean, they're all awful and terrible. And Leo was not like the one shining star or anything above them. But I think he was the least worst, if that makes sense. Like cheating on his partner, not great. But I think his siblings

[00:26:49] so far, at least what I've seen, were way worse than that. He did seem to be running a legitimate business. Yeah. You know, versus some of what I've seen from his siblings. And he was, at least in this story, trying to offer some charitable donations.

[00:27:12] Of course, it came in the guise of, do you know who I am? Right. It was all very selfish. He's like, because I need to do this very specific thing and I'm going to throw my power and money around to get it done.

[00:27:26] So if you want to, you know, kind of personalize a little bit about him. He was, I think, the least worst of all the siblings. So that's what I've been learning about Leo so far. So he opts to try to replace this cat that his partner has,

[00:27:50] which he thinks he has killed in some sort of blackout state after this party. You know, we saw how he wakes up to having been covered in blood, finding the corpse of the cat, cleaning it up and never says a word to his partner.

[00:28:14] And he goes to this shelter and of course we see Verna and of course nothing good. We know as the audience anyway, nothing good is going to come to that. And I was thinking of the other two episodes where she interacts with Perry and Camille

[00:28:35] and tries to give them a way out. And I think in this episode she tries to give him a way out by... And yeah, I was wondering if you thought the same if by trying to talk like telling him that this black cat

[00:28:55] because he's like, oh, it's got to be black, right? And the other cats that she's showing him are not black cats. And she offers him not just one but two cats. Well, hey, you gotta take them both. But he says, nope, it's got to be this one. And

[00:29:10] she's like, nope, that was not available. I've got all these other offers. You know, people online are putting in applications for him spoken for. And he's of course giving his whole don't you know who I am? I can set you up and set up this you know, your

[00:29:28] organization and adopt all the cats and do all these great things. Right. He needs that cat. And she really keeps trying to talk him into these other cats like, hey, these are short timers. You know, we're not a no kill shelter. These

[00:29:42] cats are not going to be with us. They get a week to find a home and then that's it. And I feel like that was her way of trying to give give him a way out. And he opted not to. Yeah. And it's like a new cat.

[00:29:58] It's like it's like a test of character. Like, are you as selfish as you? You seem to be like I'm giving you this chance to prove yourself worthy of not having to go down the road that I am about to take you down.

[00:30:12] And if you can prove that like, oh, no, you can make a better choice. You cannot do the thing that you came here to do. Then maybe things will be a little better for you. And yeah, I feel like it's the same thing. This was her

[00:30:25] version of doing that for him. Yeah, I think this was her her way of trying to give him a way out. And I think that if he had decided to adopt one of the quote short timer cats, then that would have been a way

[00:30:39] for one for him to show mercy. Right. To an animal that has a well, like she said, short time. They only have a week to find a home. So it would have been a way for him to show mercy, but then also having to take responsibility for

[00:30:55] his actions and say, quote, actions because this was all not real. What happened and what happened with Pluto and what happens with this new cat that he brings home. But, you know, what he thinks is real anyway, Leo thinks all of this is happening and he doesn't

[00:31:15] know that. But, you know, he would have had to have accepted responsibility for what he did and he would have, you know, could have gotten a different cat to maybe replace him and, you know, maybe talk to his partner and talk about what happened or explain or something.

[00:31:32] And I don't know how in the world I don't know how that would have went at all. Like, hey, by the way, I I murdered your cat in some blacked out state. I don't know how well that would have went down, but somehow could have taken

[00:31:47] responsibility for what he did. And instead, he tries to just replace the cat with another cat and forget that it ever happened. So I I'm curious because I know none of that was real. Do you think that it had anything to do with like, do

[00:32:11] you think that he shares any of that illness that his that Roderick does this vascular dementia that we know can cause hallucinations? Or do you think that because I don't I know he did a lot of drugs, but I just don't think that that there's anything

[00:32:31] that can cause those types of hallucinations. Yeah, it's I hadn't really thought of it that way. I I more just think it's it's whatever power or whatever Verna has. I think this is just because because what the night before that happened, quote unquote, whatever. If he killed Pluto,

[00:32:53] we were talking about this woman that comes in and we don't see her face that gives him the drugs that he took that night that were that Monty that came up later. Yeah. And that could have been Verna and her influence right then.

[00:33:07] And so she's already met with him. She's already kind of done something to him. Yeah, because I'm going to go with that theory that mean he never actually even killed the cat in the first place. I think all of that was in his mind as well.

[00:33:21] As you see that his dead body there at the end of the episode, this cat with both eyeballs intact comes walking by and pops up. And did you see that cat might have been sporting a tiny little Gucci collar? Yeah. Yeah. Pluto.

[00:33:36] I think Pluto really did just get out. And then as they said, would come back after a few days. Yeah. I think Pluto was just catting around. Yes. Cats can do. And yeah, I mean, that it's clear Pluto's lived in everything. And when they pan to the

[00:33:55] bathtub and all of the evidence that Leo thought he had anyway, piled up there in the bathtub was not there. No one. No one else saw what he did. You know, Verna and the cat in the wall. Every time the cat ran by and scratched the shit

[00:34:17] out of him again or whatever, he was the only one that seemed to ever see the cat. Yeah, because it was nobody was in the room or it was just kind of like, oh, you just missed her. Even the moment with when Frederick is in the room and

[00:34:29] he like scratches him in the eye and runs up, he's like, get the cat. And you can see Frederick's reaction like what cat? I don't know what you're talking about. And I think everyone must have just been well. And I think his partner did, too.

[00:34:42] I think Julius definitely is just like you are far gone. Like you are on way too many drugs and you need to back off, you know, thinking that a lot of what he has going on is attributing to that. But I don't know if that's

[00:34:58] what it's supposed to be. And I mean, a lot of it could just be manifestation of his guilt. You know, the guilt that he has from what he thinks anyway is the act of murdering his partner's cat. The guilt of, you know, trying to clean up

[00:35:16] and brush it under the rug, so to speak. And, you know, lie to him about, you know, what what he really did and lying to him about this cat and trying to say it's Pluto when his partner doesn't even see the cat ever. It seemed

[00:35:35] or if it also had anything to do with. I wonder if he also feels guilty about being a part of the family, the Usher family. Do you think that that's a part of the family? Do you think that any of any of those feelings and

[00:35:51] this cat kind of symbolized maybe that that his family being guilty of so many crimes that he's also guilt feeling guilty about that because but I mean, he doesn't he doesn't really do anything about it. He can say, oh, I'm not a part of this.

[00:36:13] I don't I don't play in your in your world. I don't have anything to do with the company, but he gets benefits of being a sure, you know, he gets the rewards. He's got all this money and kind of just do whatever you want, you know.

[00:36:30] So I don't know. I'm curious about all that. I don't have that figured out. Yeah, well, if we go by like source material, guilt definitely is a big part of it. And yeah, I can see that being a lot of it, whether it's just guilt

[00:36:47] over the cat and his relationship and that or you mentioned because even he has that moment where he's like really upset and he kind of yells at his dad and his aunt and just very much like take me out of the fucking will. I don't care, you know,

[00:37:01] just like I'm tired of doing things for you. So even in that moment, even if it's just giving a speech about Camille, that's not real. He's just like, I'm sick of the fake things that that go on in this family and all the lying because that's just

[00:37:15] a lie. I don't feel this way. I feel a different way, but you won't let me say how I feel. You won't let us grieve. It's everything has to be business decision. Everything has to be timing and optics and he's sick

[00:37:26] of it. So I think, yeah, you could be onto something about just this grief of his entire family anyway. Yeah, I don't have all of that figured out, but I do know that it wasn't real, at least knowing that the cat did live.

[00:37:44] So that that that made me feel better. I was like, OK. So what we saw and was like, oh, my God, you know, absolutely horrified that it actually happened, at least so there was that. What is your next point? I'll go ahead and piggyback off

[00:38:03] that. My biggest point. So I'll go backtrack to a smaller one after because, yeah, it's just the black cat. And this main story, which we've talked about a lot of is like kind of our thoughts on Verna and did she give him a choice?

[00:38:16] And so we talked about a lot of that, of course, is like the shelter he goes to is run by her, which means it's probably just an abandoned building he walked into and nobody else sees anything. I love those classic Verna like little subtle dialogue,

[00:38:31] hence the things that she says to him while they're having that transaction and that interaction. I have a soft spot for the short timers. You know, that's important. You know, she says you have to take both of these guys. So that's important with siblings. You keep them together.

[00:38:45] Oh, yeah. That and I feel like a little bit of a Hill House connection to that show without any spoilers, because in case someone listening hasn't watched that show yet, please go do that, by the way. Yes. You know, a big tie in with a sibling story

[00:39:05] there as well. So it feels like a small little call out to that. But yeah, very interesting dialogue she chose. She chose there. Also, just on the humor side, I loved her very dry delivery of when he said, don't you know who I am? I can do this.

[00:39:19] I can set you up as like new new location, new right. Waterside shop. And we can see here's tiny little kitty cat hot tubs. And the way she just dryly responds with they'd hate that cracked me up. But yeah, so I did want to talk about the

[00:39:38] black cat, the story by Edgar Allan Poe, which is one of the big spoilers for the story, but also it came out in 1843. So you've had plenty of time. Yeah, because I think I did this. I found one of these for the Mask of the Red Deaths.

[00:39:54] So I found one for Black Cat and I was like, yeah, let me so you can see now there are some definite, like updated differences in the story with Leo here. But you can see where they pulled a lot of references from in this.

[00:40:06] So it's the black cat is a short story written by Edgar Allan Poe first published 1843. It's a psychological horror that delves into themes of guilt, madness and descent into evil. The story is narrated by an unnamed protagonist who begins by proclaiming his sanity despite

[00:40:22] recounting a series of disturbing events. He describes his love for animals and his marriage to a loving wife. However, the narrator's personality undergoes a dramatic change due to his increasing alcoholism and inner turmoil. So maybe not drug use, but alcohol here, this messing with his relationship.

[00:40:38] The protagonist becomes increasingly violent and abusive to his pets and eventually his wife to cruel treatment. I mean, it wasn't necessarily on purpose, but he did hurt his partner here in one way or another. Yeah, he becomes particularly fixated on one of his black cats named Pluto

[00:40:55] in a fit of rage. The narrator gouges out one of Pluto's eyes and as guilt overwhelms him, the narrator hangs the cat from a tree claiming that it was an act of mercy shortly after the narrator's house catches fire and he and his wife managed to escape.

[00:41:10] However, he becomes obsessed with the idea that the second black cat, which resembles Pluto but bears a white spot on his chest, is haunting him. He soon begins to despise the cat seeing it as a symbol of his guilt and impending doom. Driven to madness by his guilt

[00:41:24] and the presence of the second cat, the narrator resolves to kill it. In attempting to do so, he ends up murdering his wife. Bearing an axe in her skull, he conceals the body within the walls of their home. The police investigate the disappearance of the wife, but the

[00:41:37] narrator confidently shows them around the house, even resting his hand on the wall, concealing the corpse. However, the sound of the cat's meowing emerges from within the wall, leading the police to discover the hidden body. The narrator's guilt intensifies and he confesses his crimes to

[00:41:49] the police, revealing that he had inadvertently walled the cat up with the wife's corpse. And he is subsequently sentenced to death. So yeah, it was a little different but you can see where they pulled some key story elements into this to kind of make those little

[00:42:06] things like, oh, that's where that came from and that's where they came up with that idea. Yep, and put a little bit of a modern twist on it as well and maybe a little bit of a relief knowing the source material that nothing happened to Julius, I guess.

[00:42:23] Right. Yeah, at least Julius made it out. Yeah. And the cat lived. It's a happier version than the Poe original. Yeah. So they changed the story a little bit. Yeah, I said, like Leo's getting a little help sleeping from from Jules and finds the

[00:42:41] dead rat under his pillow. Or does he? Because that's where his sanity starts to really unravel. And I remember, like, even at that point on you on first watch, I was like, well, I know exactly how this episode is going to end, not just

[00:42:53] because they all end in the main character it's following dying, but specifically exactly what was going to happen to him. Because if you remember back in Episode One, I paused and read those newspaper articles and it said his partner said that he jumped

[00:43:04] over the railing, you know, this fit of rage and didn't know why. There's no reason for him to do that. So, yeah, that's what we saw. That's exactly what happened. Yeah. But after that interesting first night, I just had a little note because like, oh, yes, the

[00:43:19] delicious taste of room temperature flat Guinness first thing in the morning. Yum. We get Julie Jules telling Leo that his drug addiction is getting to be a bit too much. He's acting erratic, stressed, anxious, irritable, all these things. And apparently part of the deal of

[00:43:38] their relationship is that Jules isn't supposed to complain about the drugs. He's doing it lovingly and kindly. But then we see Leo like as soon as Freddie shows up, he's like, well, boyfriend just resigned. He's dead. He doesn't even know it. It's like, man, that's a little harsh.

[00:43:54] Yeah, that's awful. But then, yeah, more dead animals left his presence everywhere. So he calls his friends. He calls his friends everywhere. So he calls this shelter woman to come get the cat because it's an evil psychopath cat. And then that's where things get

[00:44:07] weirder in classic Carla Gugino being phenomenal fashion. Because, yeah, I give more shout out to her that her very creepy in the best way this episode spitting all the cat facts and then following it up with an earlick for good measure because

[00:44:24] it's kind of the same way that she embodied the chimp last episode. She's become the cat with the eyeball pop out and everything, which at first I was like, did we really need that? And then again, going back and looking at the synopsis of the original story.

[00:44:40] Yes, we did. It's a direct reference. See? Yeah. Then let's Leo thinks he's going crazy for like a moment. But then he's just overcome with rage with that cat. I like the I can buy a new wall. I can buy a new loft.

[00:44:57] I can even get Hemsworth to send me a new hammer. And it makes perfect sense to me that Raleigh Coley is worthy of wielding. Absolutely. Yes. I accept. Jules comes home to see that he is torn, thorn the whole place apart. There's no cat, no woman.

[00:45:21] As far as he knows, Leo has just gone completely far off the deep end, which speaking of going off the deep end, Leo takes a little dive after swinging at Ghost Cat on the balcony. And yeah, bye bye Leo. But oh look, Pluto came home. Yeah. Happy ending.

[00:45:38] Yeah. There's the cat. Yeah. But I thought it was really well done, especially after going back and kind of learning more because I never read the original short story. So they're pulling from like some old books. I mean, I've read the original because they're pulling from like

[00:45:58] some that I didn't know much about. So Black Cat was kind of a newer one to me. So going back and like kind of doing a little research on it, I was like, oh, I really appreciate it on second watch seeing exactly what they're doing. Mm hmm.

[00:46:10] Yeah, that's awesome. I appreciate that little summary, especially for any folks that aren't familiar with it and kind of, you know, understand what the inspiration was. Yeah, that that was a lot. Did you you know, seeing him jump and then land? I mean, it was sad.

[00:46:38] But did you jump during the scene with Dupin and Roderick when while Roderick's talking, all of a sudden you get thump. Maybe a little, maybe a slight little. It was it was a very effective jump scare for sure. It was really good. Yeah, there's

[00:46:54] there's a whole lot of different jump scares in this show versus like Hillbilly. House, like with hidden ghosts and jump scares and things that would normally get me. But yeah, that that made me jump for sure. Like Wolf was not was not prepared for that one. I'm curious

[00:47:15] because we see like he started and I know that it was well, again, I think it's a hallucination. But I'm only basing that off the fact that like when Roderick is seeing these things, Dupin doesn't see anything. And usually if there's a hidden ghost, usually

[00:47:34] if someone is able to see them, they can usually all see them if there's anyone else around too. But maybe I'm maybe I'm wrong. Maybe I need to go back and you know, I plan to plan to rewatch Hill House once I'm emotionally capable. But

[00:47:53] I just I feel like because Dupin has zero knowledge of anything that's happening around him as Roderick. Roderick is experiencing these things and seeing or hearing these things that they're hallucinations. But anyway, you know, when Leo when we see Leo on the ground, he starts to get

[00:48:11] up or like turn his head towards Roderick when Roderick sees Perry when he's having a moment with Juno. Like this is like an intimate moment right between him and his wife and then to have like a vision of like your dead son

[00:48:31] and not just vision of your dead son, but like in his grotesque melted version, you know, and he gets like right up in his face. Like what the heck did he and Madeline do? Like what is this whole thing with Verna that his children seem to be

[00:48:54] paying for? Like they're paying the price. I mean, Roderick is definitely paying a price to I mean, there is he's having to live through losing his children. So maybe that is also a punishment for him. But his children are having to also pay the prices, not just Roderick

[00:49:12] and Madeline having to I, you know, pay the price, pay the Piper whatever it is that it's a deal. Again, I don't know because we haven't seen it yet. It has a very like deal with the devil vibe where it's like, they knew maybe not

[00:49:32] to the extent because, you know, it's kind of a trope in those ways. It's like, you know, it's like, yes, you can have this thing, but it's like, but it's going to cost you more than you think it will. It's like, yes, I know how taxes work.

[00:49:43] It's like, no, no, no. I mean, I know, but but it's like, you know, it's not just them two having to like, OK, we made this deal. We know one day we're going to pay up. There's a price to pay for for this. It's his children.

[00:50:03] And do you find it interesting? Like Roderick has been married and has children. He's had has illegitimate children, but he has six kids. Don't think Madeline has any. She doesn't seem to be married. We haven't heard of any mention of her having a husband, boyfriend, children. Right.

[00:50:26] It's interesting why Roderick, you know, has so many children, but Maddie doesn't, or at least that we know of anyway. And this is just speculation. Again, only have seen these first four episodes. I don't know what kind of deal has been made or what.

[00:50:41] But I almost feel like even if it was spelled out for them, like you will pay back with your blood or your bloodline or, you know, something down the line. I can see that we've seen some of the more I can see that we've seen

[00:50:54] the younger versions of them. Roderick would be the optimist being like, ah, that's not real. And then just continuing on with life while Madeline would be the pragmatist going like, well, if that's the case, then I will have no children and I'd

[00:51:06] have nothing I have to pay with. You know, I could see it being that way. That's true. That's true. Yeah, I don't I don't know, but it seems like in death his children like know what's up like they they know whatever it is that happened

[00:51:25] and they seem to be out to to like let their dad know that we know and we know because of what you did, we've had to pay the price for whatever whatever you've done. So I'm super curious to kind of get some more flashbacks

[00:51:43] and get back to this damn New Year's Eve flashback, you know, and find out what the hell happened. I feel like we have to be getting close eventually, especially now in this episode that they know that Verna has something to do with what's going on. Yeah, you know

[00:52:02] and we're at the halfway point, you know, this was episode four. There's only eight episodes. So we're now going to be hitting the back half. We've got to start getting some more information. I'm dying to see what happened that New Year's Eve night and exactly

[00:52:16] what this is all about. My next point is kind of short, but you know, we were talking before we started recording about dark humor and I feel like we might have the same last point. Just by you saying that, I was like,

[00:52:31] I think we have the same last thing. We probably do. So let's just talk about it. It's fine. Feel free to just jump in. We don't have to do it separate by any means. But because I do appreciate the humor as well

[00:52:47] as the horror part of this story and any story, honestly, I love that I just feel like I could just hang out with this dude. He gets me and my vibe. But I want to talk about Frederick. Yep. And his burner burn-ed phone. My gosh.

[00:53:07] Henry Thomas, our best friend, was so good. I love seeing all of these characters or all of these actors playing these different characters in these different Flanagan series that he has and how they all get to play these different characters like Henry Thomas

[00:53:31] in Hill House is such a different character than what we see here in The Fall of the House of Usher. Same goes for all these others. It's fun to see them in these different versions. Henry Thomas gave us some hilarious moments this week as Frederick

[00:53:51] when, oh my gosh when he is trying to unlock the phone with his wife's melted face. I love the dark humor and dark comedy even as much as I love it I could not watch that scene. Really? It was so tough for me.

[00:54:16] I did my notes today. I literally averted my eyes from the screen and was like I'm just going to type out my feelings because I don't want to watch it again. It's so unsettling and so uncomfortable. I don't even She doesn't have fingerprints

[00:54:32] or a scannable face anymore, bro. I don't know what to tell you. Trying to use her fingers. I was like, dude they don't exist anymore. What are you doing? Oh my gosh. It was as much as I like it, it's that

[00:54:48] peak dark comedy even to the point where it's like it's a little too much for me and I was like I appreciate it but I'm like man that's rough. It was rough but I couldn't help but giggle but what made me really giggle was another scene

[00:55:08] when he's in there talking with Leo and Leo's in the bathroom back part of the closet or whatever and he's bitching about the cat or whatever because the cat has again scratched him and Frederick's like I'm just going to take this cocaine, okay? Bye!

[00:55:30] Casually takes it and bye. Just the way he phrased it and his delivery just I couldn't help it. I'm laughing my ass off. The delivery was perfect. It was great because even Leo tells him, oh my boyfriend just resigned. Basically telling him things aren't going very

[00:55:52] great, I'm going to break up with my boyfriend, I'm going to have to get a new place and he's like oh that's all terrible, anyway I want drugs. He's like hey I was hoping for some drugs.

[00:56:04] And he's like sorry I don't mean to be so blunt but I want some drugs. He's like okay. He was dealing with his wife being melted. His words. He's dealing with a lot. The burner phone, why does she have it, why did she

[00:56:22] tend to orgy, sorry cuddle puddle which unfortunately tends to be more accurate by the end of that get together. But yeah. And when he gets to Leo's place and he's huffing and puffing and he's all sweaty because he had to climb the stairs, I love

[00:56:44] that they remembered this little callback that he's afraid of elevators, they call him sweaty Freddie. Because he takes the stairs everywhere and we don't know why he's scared of elevators and if I don't know if that will come into play.

[00:56:58] I was going to say I wonder if it's going to be relevant later when we get to Freddie's story which I feel like is a spoiler because we all know that all the siblings seem to be getting their own episodes so I don't know if that will come

[00:57:12] into play or not but it's fun how they had a callback in this episode anyway. And I do remember his article in that first episode of How Freddie Died, I won't repeat it in case somebody missed it or doesn't want to know again if they forgot about it.

[00:57:26] But yeah, that was one that was spelled out in the newspaper articles I paused was How Freddie Died and I'm like I could see that coming into play. Interesting. Interesting. Yeah, but I love that they remember that detail from a previous episode and he just

[00:57:46] casually when he opens the door and he's just like huffing and puffing and he's all sweaty and you're like oh yeah. He had to take the stairs because they're like oh there's a lot of stairs. Yeah. So it's just great comic relief in at least for me

[00:58:04] I'm sure there could be some that find it distasteful and that's okay. I find those moments to be darkly funny and get a nice little break from how dark the series in this episode are when especially having to keep talking about or seeing and thinking about

[00:58:24] dead animals, that's hard for me. I don't enjoy seeing and I know none of the animals are real I know it's all pretend in TV and no animals were harmed and things but it doesn't take away from the fact that these things do happen

[00:58:38] because there are some really bad evil people that do evil terrible things to animals so there's there are facts to that and I don't like hearing about that either. So having to deal with those visuals and hearing about that getting these darkly humorous moments helps me

[00:58:59] with dealing with some of the material but Henry Thomas what a freaking treasure he has been especially in this episode. Yeah, it's a lot of fun. Yeah. Sweaty Freddy So that was my last main point I know that you said also your point

[00:59:23] too so did you have any other points? Are you ready for notes? That was my last main point. I had a backup point that's really just more notes but like so it would be a super short final point but I think we talked about

[00:59:39] some of it as well is again going back to the conversation confession interview whatever we want to call it between Roderick and August just a couple little things mainly just continuations of things we've picked up on in the past the reoccurring texts from Lenore that are definitely important

[00:59:59] and I can't help but think more and more of the little idea that you brought up previously and I'm like sounds like a classic genius Rima moment I wouldn't be sure if you nailed it. I don't know. You're usually pretty good at that. Thanks but I don't know

[01:00:15] just I feel like they tell you things in the episodes and you don't know until later that it means something I've also been wrong so many times about so many things so we'll see and then the strange noises

[01:00:33] coming from the basement and then it's like oh it's just Madeline down there which it's also still worrisome that he just kind of ignores it and dismisses it like don't worry about it it's Madeline and he's like well why don't we have her come up here?

[01:00:45] and he's like next question just move on thank you it's one of my I mean it was just a note really is what the fuck is up with Maddie in the basement because but Augie does hear it so that's important cause he doesn't

[01:00:59] have any he doesn't hear or see any of the other like ghosts that are going on in this room so there is something there that's actually something viable that August can hear so that's a good point I'm curious it is awfully suspicious the way that Roderick just

[01:01:19] there's that little pause where he's just staring at him and then just on to the next and I'm like why aren't you? what is going on? oh it's killing me we talked about the jump scare with Leo splatting right in front of Roderick mid-sentence

[01:01:39] which of course yeah he reacts very angrily towards right as he was talking about displacement of aggression towards an innocent party as a defense mechanism which it's funny cause even like Dupin reads into that reaction is exactly that which then I was like holy shit

[01:01:55] August Dupin like he gets up cause he's like how dare you raise your voice at me like that I will knock your lights out if you talk to me like that it's like don't you sit here and talk to me about displacement of aggression

[01:02:07] and then immediately do the same thing to me and then like he establishes dominance and then he puts Roderick in his place you see Roderick almost turn into this little boy for a second like I'm sorry you're right you know like it was very

[01:02:19] that power dynamic shifted for a second you're like oh damn like Dupin's got some pull for sure he knows how to control the situation and maybe that was a little bit of that's a really good point but maybe a little bit of the flash of the old Roderick

[01:02:37] maybe that was a little bit of that younger version of Roderick where he is more of a version of his earlier self or younger self because yeah that was an interesting little flip of the switch where it seems like Roderick is kind of controlling the narrative there

[01:02:57] and he gets shaken up and that just for a moment was flipped that was an interesting moment so that's really all I had to say on that as far as like I wanted to take those extra notes and turn them into a small little point

[01:03:11] I like all of that I mean just to add to that that was all my main points but I jotted down some notes that didn't feel like main points but you were talking earlier about like Roderick and Maddie knowing and not talking and it's like

[01:03:31] so now that they've discovered Verna somehow being involved with what happened to Camille and are they going to be able to piece together like was she involved with Perry as well it's like why are they the only two that know what's going on

[01:03:55] was there a reason why they've never told anyone and maybe it's a contingency based on whatever deal they made or something like you can't talk about it, you're not allowed to talk about it you're not allowed to tell anyone about what we've

[01:04:07] talked about or said or this deal or anything but do you think or do we think I don't know that maybe now that they know Verna is like back and she's messing their lives and has something to do with the siblings deaths

[01:04:25] do you think they'll tell anyone else I mean I feel like I'd be saying hey if you see this woman tell us maybe leave get involved with her because she's already inserted herself into Tammy's life Victorine she's making her rounds and already kind of establishing a presence there

[01:04:53] you'd think that they'd pass around her picture and be like don't get involved with this woman if you see her run don't I don't know are they going to say anything because if they don't then certainly then that makes Roderick even more responsible than what he already is

[01:05:12] for not saying something and Madeline too so I don't know I'm just like are y'all going to say anything now now that you know she this mysterious woman that we know as Verna is involved are you going to say anything now I feel like that might be important

[01:05:28] if you want to save anyone else's lives if there's even the ability to now which I'm guessing probably not considering we already kind of know the outcome maybe what's maybe what's going to happen was always going to happen or something I don't know the little speech that Victorine

[01:05:50] gives I'm still calling her Verna I know that that's not the name she gives Verna but Verna as the heart patient Pamela is her persona there I guess thank you for the reminder when she's talking about her device and asking her about it and what it can do

[01:06:08] and the quote from Victorine she says it's a quantum leap forward from a pacemaker it's predominantly passive implant at least at first it'll gather real time data about your heart and entire vascular system evaluating its efficiency and blocking blockages before they become clots or strokes

[01:06:26] this can help prevent numerous cardiovascular issues so that sounds to me like it's a telltale heart yeah exactly isn't that kind of what she's describing there? yeah I like that a lot let's see oh I talked about Roderick's hallucinations or are they hallucinations

[01:06:54] when we get the sound of the bells jangling from behind the brick wall those notes we've talked about oh one last thing did you catch the Mike Flanagan cameo? I did I got that as like another little note too yeah but yeah for sure that was great

[01:07:16] it took me second watch to get that but yeah for anyone that might have missed it it was during the little built infomercial or whatever was happening there with the contest winners yeah he's there in the background gives them the little knuckle bump fist bump

[01:07:38] contest winners are Mike Flanagan and uh oh Verna or as my wife is watching at home we know her candy yeah you know she really gave him hell for that but he's like I'm sorry I don't remember her there at all which I think plays into what happened

[01:07:56] there at Perry's party when the staff who she warned like get out run whatever and when they were questioned later they were like well they don't like officially really remember her directly just that they just kind of remember being inferred to like run

[01:08:14] or get out or that they shouldn't be there they can't recall her or give a specific description of her which kind of fits the same thing that would happen with Tammy's husband that I don't really remember her being there but I'm sorry you know

[01:08:30] kind of goes against their rules for their kink play they have which Tammy will send a strongly worded email about curious what that answer to that one's gonna be like who's candy yeah I'm sorry who yeah let's see that's all the notes

[01:08:56] that I have did you sorry did I just trample like all over your notes? no I had some extra just random notes poor Juno this episode Tammy referring to her literally as it why is it talking should it be talking right now just awful awful human being

[01:09:14] or even when it's just like talking about Juno's not in the will she's not in the will I'm literally sitting right here I don't know why it's like just no respect the only person that gives her any modicum of respect seems to be Freddie and I think

[01:09:28] it's only because he's like sucking up to dad that's the only reason he even gives her any respect I agree total suck up to dad yeah more like tongue in cheek dialogue with Vic getting into it with Roderick a little bit and then when he's pressing asking

[01:09:44] are you the informant because clearly Camille was onto something and her saying I would bleed for this family and I'm like oh I'm sure you will soon I think they all will which yeah Roderick's lacking faith in her project but then as soon as she

[01:10:00] says oh we're moving on to human trials he's ready to like turn right around back on it although I have this feeling that she has not told her partner and the doctor the surgeon in the instance Alessandra that they're moving to human trials yet seems like

[01:10:18] that person is one that should know and doesn't because even when Verna as Pamela even is just like oh Dr. Ruiz is the one doing it and she's like yeah she's super excited like she has no idea very shady understandably of course for Vic why it's

[01:10:38] all shady is because she's doing very shady things I think she so far is and again this is not having been exposed to everything that all the other siblings are doing again they're all awful but in my opinion Victorine is very evil

[01:10:56] well she's just playing fast and loose she's playing chess with a human beings life or at least she thinks she is I don't know Verna doesn't really count but she doesn't know that she doesn't know that but her in my opinion is torturing of the chimps knowing that

[01:11:14] this device does not work and she's knowingly continuing to torture and maim these chimps to get the right numbers that she thinks that she needs for her study and then to knowingly put a person's life at risk again it's Verna but she doesn't know that but to put

[01:11:34] someone at risk and knowing that this isn't and that they're most likely not gonna make it that's evil to me she so far seems to be the worst of the siblings in my opinion and it's hard to reconcile that with the fact that this

[01:11:48] character is played by Tania I love Tania Miller so much I love her so much and her character like in Bly Manor and then in this like what we were just talking about like with Henry Thomas earlier to kind of reconcile I'm like I love her so much

[01:12:06] and she in my opinion is playing like the worst sibling it's so hard to reconcile yeah cause you get this feeling that like Verna's character it's almost like this was we've already kind of seen Vic's opportunity to leave opportunity to change her mind

[01:12:27] we've already seen that a little bit where she's nailing everything that Fortunato does where she's like oh I hear these things about drug trials always happening in low income countries and areas and on certain people that aren't being taken advantage of almost like giving her this out

[01:12:43] to realize what she's doing is wrong instead she's like oh but if you see the other side of it then those people that's why we picked you is because you need it and she's right there to her face so I feel like we might have already seen

[01:12:57] that step in Vic's downfall yeah other than that though I mean like this Heart Mesh itself you read you know you quoted her explaining it and on the surface it sounds incredible it really is a great project that could be tremendous and save countless lives

[01:13:19] however it's the greed of the Usher family that's gonna lead it to be rushed and cause issues and that's where Verna's gonna come in and use that greed to get her connected to it for her cause I'm sure then yeah a couple notes like the Bill

[01:13:40] built kind of thing again we talked about Mike Flanagan and then Verna being there and them talking about it I did just the humor this isn't even dark humor just cringe humor it was literally like oh it's so bad is the you know I'm built and you can

[01:13:58] too we built this body we built this body with heart and soul okay no oh just no please no no unsubscribed I'm out unsubscribe dislike is there an unlike button here ah man and then yeah I think lastly Roderick we see him starting to see the ghosts before

[01:14:28] his conversation with August when you mentioned Perry interrupting him in his alone time with Juno quite the mood killer yeah like you mentioned and then afterwards it leads to him revealing to Madeline his diagnosis of Cata-Soul which we learn is exactly what their mother had

[01:14:46] same as their mom and we know of course it causes the hallucinations but he was not ready for what he's seeing I like that it actually does make him rethink the anti-psychotics for a little bit he's like yeah we wouldn't dare put you on that

[01:15:02] and he's like well I don't know if you saw what I saw maybe I need it uh yeah so again it leaves us questioning is it just hallucination or like is there really something more supernatural at play what does Verna tie in on all

[01:15:18] of it yeah still a lot of questions we've got the back half of the series to go but I know and I'm hoping now that they like I mentioned earlier now that they know that she somehow is involved with what's

[01:15:32] been going on or at least as far as Camille is concerned maybe they'll find out more about you know her involvement with Perry and his party and with now Leo but I just I feel like oh my gosh I'm four episodes in

[01:15:48] and I still have more questions than I do anything I'm still so in the dark about what's going on and what all of this is and what it means and I know that there's gonna come a moment because I feel like

[01:16:00] most of the time when I'm watching something from Mike Flanagan you know it all comes together at some point all these pieces are somehow going to make sense and it's all gonna come together and I'm like oh my god yeah that's awesome that's brilliant

[01:16:14] why didn't I think of that I'm definitely not there yet though I'm still just like I don't know what the hell is going on but I'm anxious to keep watching and find out that's for sure alright that I think is a good place to wrap it up and

[01:16:33] now get into listener feedback we've got some great listeners that have been providing some great feedback these last few weeks let's see what they have to say this week do you wanna take the first one for me alright the first one coming from Maureen Favo says not only

[01:16:51] are Carla's accents all different her physical presence is as varied yeah Raul's kitty water slide hot tub monologue was perfect loving all monologues in this series no complaints conference room tells us everything we need to know about the remaining family and their expected deaths

[01:17:09] amazing but wish we could hear Flanagan discuss yeah strike stuff that's how it is I'm sure as soon as he's allowed to he's gonna dump so much greatness on this I'll be waiting for it but she goes on to say plus we see Roderick as CEO definitively

[01:17:27] Sir yes sir from Rufus Griswold's book of leadership Henry Thomas and Mark Hamill's scene so much have you ever had a stand up with somebody in your own home they literally cause you to jump or startle when you encounter those builts are everywhere

[01:17:41] plus we built this body what a great needle drop oh man Leo's cat scenes are unbelievable but impossible to do justice don't know how but looking forward to your coverage set up for Tammy and Frederick's final encounters with Verna is so great

[01:17:57] don't think the second cat ever existed and Pluto was alive with her Gucci collar at the end yes that's how I took it and if there's any doubt as far as if Pluto survived and was fine I do believe Mike Flanagan himself confirmed on ex formerly known as

[01:18:19] Twitter I was listening to another podcast today and I've officially I love the little jab at it because with Twitter we had tweets but if it's gonna be ex then they're gonna be excretions um oh gosh that's a good one Dawn Elizabeth says another great actor bites

[01:18:43] the dust Leo should have known that buying a replacement black cat would be a terrible idea I've decided to binge this series because when I go week by week I have a hard time remembering what has been going on I'm really trying to figure out how the father

[01:18:55] is the one who killed the kids or did he say he's responsible Verna is definitely a powerful something I like what you told us about the Verna Raven connection Rima is she a shape shifter she is certainly older than she appears the ushers are starting to catch

[01:19:11] onto the fact that she is involved in everything Roderick had to have made some kind of deal with her back in the day and where is his wife what about Madeline being in that creepy basement I've only read the telltale heart all of pose

[01:19:25] work I'm afraid that he has her walled up down there I don't know you have some of the same questions that I do and I do think Roderick does say like he's responsible like he doesn't say that he actually did it

[01:19:43] or anything or did anything to his kids but he's responsible and I think it has to do something with now that he knows that Verna has played a part that his involvement with Verna and Madeline's involvement has somehow played out and affected his kids I don't know

[01:20:01] what the hell she is I can't explain her how she kind of embodied like the chimp in the last episode how in this episode it was like the cat I think she's some sort of entity that she can either like the devil or death

[01:20:19] or something of that nature where it's just yeah or make you think that that's what she is maybe she's not actually shape shifting but she makes you think that she is or something you know she can make you believe that or something I don't know she's clearly something

[01:20:35] not quite human yeah if she looks the same as what she did in that flashback at New Year's as she does today so something about her thanks Don this one comes from Lindsey Schlick says so I've decided to quit being the Debbie

[01:20:53] downer of the podcast and try a new approach laughter I deleted my original feedback for this episode let go of my wishes for the expected Mike Flanagan heart and tried to come to this episode with an open mind and try to figure out

[01:21:07] what it is that I seem to be missing since the whole world loves this show I still hate the long ass conversations about business money economics but that's never going to change and I've never wavered on how much I love all these actors despite it being

[01:21:19] hard to see people like Kate Raul and Tania acting like shitheads but one thing I think I was missing out on before was the intrigue of the show who's the informant? I think Rima might be right there probably isn't one who is Verna? Being the apparent cause

[01:21:33] behind all these horrible deaths initially made me assume she was evil but it seems less black and white than that. She's given every usher the chance to do the right thing before they're untimely undoing so it seems unlikely she's the devil or similar

[01:21:45] is she death? But does death give us the chance to make good choices? And who's buried behind the cask of a Montiato wall Rufus? Is that what Roderick and Madeline did on New Years Eve and why Verna got involved? So that will be my new outlook

[01:21:57] on this show. Okay I'm not going to get heart and everyone is a shithead but you can keep me going. Oh and Rima super interesting idea on how Tammy might have developed such a weird kink Aww Love you Lindsay I didn't

[01:22:13] I never thought you were the Debbie Downer I actually just felt really bad that you weren't getting into it and I don't know that the whole world loves this show. I feel like there's some opinions out there that differ from ours. I know we're digging it

[01:22:27] but I think there's probably some voices out there that aren't and your opinion is valid if you like it or don't so If watching it through a different lens is really helping you then maybe that's great. Maybe it works for you

[01:22:43] Yeah I mean because I do want you to if you're going to watch the show I want you to be able to enjoy it. I mean this isn't Fear the Walking Dead. You know we're not We're not hate watching the show. I don't want anyone to hate

[01:22:55] watch it. I'd rather you just not watch it if you're not enjoying it certainly not obligated but I appreciate your new approach Lindsay and I love all of that I don't know Is Verna some sort of like karmic type of being? You know like said she's

[01:23:16] giving the opportunity to do something good and they make the wrong choice so is this what they get coming back around to them because of what they did I don't know I think so many possible answers. I don't know what the right one is

[01:23:38] Let's see we got some email also this week so this first one we have is from Sarah says hey guys great to have another Flanagan show back and as always great to have your coverage why thank you all. I hope I'm not too

[01:23:52] late in sending this but I wanted to share some stray thoughts and observations on episodes 3 and 4 Episode 3 It felt monologue heavy but to be honest I loved each one I like how they were each speaking on a different perspective on power and capitalism Maddy's speech about the foster

[01:24:12] home, the lemons speech the ushers don't make anything speech and Rufus' speech on having an idea versus having assets all very much speaking to the theme of the show on how wealthy and powerful people manipulate the situations around them Of course the cat's dead. I saw that next

[01:24:30] Ep's name is the black cat so obviously Verna is going to be involved somehow and resurrect the cat or something We've seen her have some type of shape-shifting ability so maybe she will embody the cat? Who knows RIP Camille, you guys listed

[01:24:44] some of her best one liners in the set but you missed one of my faves What's a six letter word for fucked? Fucked LOL I died That was a good one, thanks for calling that out Last thing I'll add, coming back from listening

[01:25:02] to your episode 3 podcast, hope this isn't spoilery because technically it's something that already passed but maybe not a lot of people noticed, but in episode 1 we see the dates of each of the usher siblings death so we technically should know the order. So I was surprised

[01:25:16] at hearing some folks wondering who's next as the episodes seem to be going in that same chronological order but maybe I'm the only psycho that paused on each newspaper clipping to note down the dates so definitely don't go back

[01:25:30] to look at them if you'd like to keep the mystery going. I sort of wish I didn't because it sort of would have been fun to live in this suspense P.S. The end credit chimp sounds was creepy AF Nice

[01:25:44] You're not the only psycho that paused on all of the newspaper articles but I didn't catch the dates, I didn't put the dates down so you went a step further. I do have how most of them died but I didn't put them in order so that's interesting

[01:25:56] that that is also there to look back at if one wanted to Yep, that's what I was gonna say not the only psycho that did that cause you did just without the dates I love that So she goes on her thoughts about episode 4 She says

[01:26:22] Evil Cat was obviously not real but also definitely not as simple as he was crazy high on drugs and hallucinated the whole thing It all feels like within Verna's power that she messes with their heads and conjures these visions in their lives

[01:26:36] Anyways, as a cat lover and cat owner goes without saying, I was traumatized Thanks Mike Rod and Madeline finally saw Verna's face. Both of their reactions felt like they were connecting a lot of dots from the past. I was trying to figure out

[01:26:51] where each of them went. Madeline looked like she went to where the bar on New Year's Eve used to be. Also Arthur's message with the picture said enhanced, ring a bell and then Roderick, here's a bell Oh Ah That didn't, did not did not pick up on that

[01:27:11] She goes on I went back to check the New Year's Eve bar scene Maybe that door is what made the bell noise but there was nothing like that in that scene and I don't really know the significance and lore behind the brick wall

[01:27:23] but at least within the story it's definitely all connected to that New Year's Eve Speaking of more flashbacks you guys must have also noticed that Roderick's speech to the kids in the boardroom is almost word for word taken from Griswold's speech. It's not about sticking together

[01:27:37] it's about forming a wall So crazy to see the difference between present day Roderick and his younger self who was a lot more naive and impressionable and just makes me wonder at the cost it took for him to eventually become this. I hate to think he became

[01:27:51] who he is because of Griswold or maybe because of something he did to Griswold Leo's death was insane but I couldn't help but laugh at him smashing through the walls with Thor's hammer. I'm sure Raoul had the time of his life with that scene That was

[01:28:07] a bit of my all over the place feedback. Can't wait to hear everyone's thoughts Till next time, Sarah Thank you, those were great Those were great all over the place thoughts I love those all over the place thoughts. Made me feel at home because

[01:28:21] that's where I feel like I'm at every single week So thank you Sarah I think that was all amazing and yeah just talking about that it stuck with me when you were talking about the flashback and how it was like what cost for Roderick to see this

[01:28:39] difference between his younger self and how he just kind of embodies Griswold being such an awful person and that's what he turned into that really just makes me sad makes me sad That's awesome. Thanks Sarah And then we have one last email here from Daphne which yay

[01:28:59] always coming through on the emails appreciate that. Says hi Rima and Peck I really love how Flanagan incorporated the Black Cat story into the larger Usher world. Like what unfolded in this episode, Pose the Black Cat focuses on

[01:29:11] a man who kills one cat and then adopts a stray lookalike. He's then haunted when reminded by his past deeds each time he sees the new cat since it looks nearly identical This causes him to try to dispose of this

[01:29:21] new cat in a similar way resulting in the turn of events that don't equal what happens to Leo but in a way lead to the same place The name of the original cat in Pose's story? Pluta. Also I think

[01:29:31] that the kids may be dying in the order of youngest to oldest which I think means Vic is next Now that Roderick and Madeline know that Verna is back, I'm curious about how they plan to deal with the situation. It's clear that there's

[01:29:43] unfinished business and the Raven is out for blood. Usher blood Hmm I don't know that we really know the age of the kids We knew Perry was the youngest They did say that somewhere in episode 1 or 2 somewhere that he was the youngest but I don't know the ages

[01:30:07] of them and it's not so easy to tell in my opinion We know Freddy's the oldest just based on what we've seen in flashbacks. Freddy and Tammy Yeah, she was the baby in the flashback That's what's left. Vic Tammy and then Fredrick if they went in that order

[01:30:27] So I guess that if that is what they're doing then that would tell us that it was Perry and then Camille Leo Okay, so yep But I don't know that I know that because then it was, you know, and I don't even know how old

[01:30:48] Camille was because in this episode we get Tammy like, oh 35 Is that what we're going with? So is she not 35? So I don't know But I mean maybe Thank you Daphne, wonderful as always I love that you commit and make sure that you get that feedback to us

[01:31:11] every week We did get a voicemail this week as well from our friend Steve Let's see what he has to say Hello Strange Indeed This is Steve and this is for the Fall of the House of Usher Episode 4 The Black Cat

[01:31:29] Let's pick up what's being laid down here Leo's looking for a black cat and Carla Gugino is the receptionist at this place he's at now Did Leo just say not who I am but what I am? I'm a money bomb? Oh and cat scratches are the worst

[01:31:43] I had one on my calf that like it took weeks to heal Okay, it's so weird hearing Mary McDonald's voice coming out of someone with blonde hair I've just never seen her play a character with blonde hair Seriously

[01:31:57] They're talking about her if she's in the will or not She's right there in the room No you can't enhance it It's not like it is on TV, sorry Do we know what Leo's boyfriend does because he's really caring and sweet and why is he with

[01:32:11] Leo? Uh oh Vic He's looking for the monkey but the tech inside the monkey and now you've just told him that you're gonna move to the human trials Oh wow Pym is really able to get stuff ahead of the police a lot

[01:32:25] Got Camille's purse and phone and everything and he knew the password to unlock her phone Oh Madeline you are not in a good part of town I think This woman who needs the heart who's got the heart hypertension That's not Carla Gugino too is it I can't tell

[01:32:41] Now that I look at her she does kind of Oh I don't know, you'll have to answer that question I'm sure you will The cat's in the other room watching him Creepy Oh a dead mouse rat Under his pillow Interesting Roderick comparing himself to Napoleon

[01:32:57] who died of syphilis right What the? Leo's body is, he's gotta be Wait they both jumped back But wait Is Dupin seeing this also Okay no obviously Dupin didn't see it Wow sorry this one might go long but this was long there's almost

[01:33:17] over 30 minutes still left on this thing Oh the day Roderick and Dupin met When was this So Roderick's first wife, I'm assuming first wife's name is Annabelle Lee, what happened to her Oh I don't recall is not a good answer for your signature

[01:33:31] being on a piece of paper This deductive reasoning speech by Dupin is great about the coffee cups and the honey and all that Wow Rufus, Michael Trucco really put it on thick here with this whole team speech and the Ferrari

[01:33:47] Oh so Madeline has always been the brains behind what Roderick does A lot of stairs, Henry Thomas there was no elevator Perry's cuddle puddle Ninja Cat just attacked Leo again Another dead animal this time in his chair The cat's a psychopath and it is Carla Gugino

[01:34:07] as the vet whatever She's the cat Oh he's got Thor's hammer He has destroyed this apartment Oh no the cat's out on the railing Oh no Pavement pile And of course the real Pluto shows up at the end on his body Talk to you next week I loved

[01:34:29] hearing the sound effect of the little stinger at the end of the episode the gong as he's like talk to you next week it just added Great effect There was a lot of great stuff in there Steve thank you that was a great one Yep

[01:34:47] that was a good one thank you Steve thank you to everyone for your feedback keep it coming I love it so much I love that there's been great insight but also some of the same questions so I don't feel so like duh Remo why aren't you getting it

[01:35:01] because we all have the same questions so keep on writing in because next episode we are covering is episode 5 of The Fall of the House of Usher titled The Telltale Heart Yeah so if I'm going to make that prediction like I teased at the top

[01:35:23] it goes in line with even what Daphne said I feel like it might be Tania Miller's Time to Shine it might be the Vic episode for sure it's where I again I don't know I haven't watched ahead but that's the prediction I'm making

[01:35:37] that's the feeling I'm getting there with that title It's the vibe I'm getting based on what I saw in this episode 4 anyway in her speech about the device and the heart so it'll be interesting to see what lays in store for her anyway if that's what they decide

[01:35:58] to do I don't know and just as a quick PSA so we'll be a few days late with next week's episode it will be out next week but it'll be a couple of days late I have travel coming up the first few days of the next week

[01:36:20] when we would typically record so we're needing to switch our recording days thank you again Peik for that but we're going to have to switch our days in order to be able to still record that week so the next episode will be a few days late

[01:36:36] I apologize we've had a lot of travel going on these last few weeks but it won't be a whole week later just like two days should be just a couple of days but just as a little hey where's the episode at it's still going to happen

[01:36:52] unfortunately this is completely unavoidable my travel that's come up for a few days but rest assured it will be out and we appreciate your patience gives you a little extra time to leave that feedback right? so speaking of that of course with that feedback we would love to

[01:37:10] hear from you we always love hearing from everybody who sends in their feedback we'd love to hear from more if you want to send it in it's super easy you can just go to podcastica.com and find all the links

[01:37:20] and stuff to this show and all the other great stuff going on over there but definitely for here you can give us some love and feedback there well while you're there be sure to check out our other shows at podcastica.com there's so many

[01:37:34] there's so many great shows that have been covered you know past and present the walking dead rewatch is going on right now that's awesome you and Daphne you guys just wrapped up your season is that right? yeah so we'll be taking a break for this month

[01:37:56] we'll be back in December early December back with that but whole backlog of great episodes to listen to in the meantime if you haven't especially in this last season if you haven't listened to it we had a great four person panel talking about the Meg to

[01:38:14] the Trench with Rima and then Ben was on there with us that was a lot of fun so definitely go back and check that one out if you haven't because it was great yeah I love being on there with y'all so fun yeah lots of other good stuff

[01:38:29] going on there as well like you said past and present Loki coverage Loki cast with Alex, Sydney and Kirk the Loki season finale will be this week so they'll be covering that they've been doing a great job on that coverage and then also with past

[01:38:47] what is it? Still Slaying so there's a Buffy podcast on Podcastica right now that's taking select and choice like Buffy episodes and going back through those so if you're a Buffy fan definitely look that up and go find all those podcasts that you love especially ours and subscribe

[01:39:06] and follow and give ratings, reviews all those things that you can do we always appreciate it yeah please and thank you but alright for now that is our show thanks for listening everyone until next time I'm Rima and I'm Peyton and Bronson Adams is strange indeed