329 "Finale" (YOU S5E10)

[00:00:00] Hmm? Ah! Podcastica with RJ Hey everybody, I'm Rima And I'm Pake And this is Strange Indeed, a podcast dedicated to the Netflix show, YOU Today we are covering Season 5, Episode 10

[00:00:26] The season and series finale Titled Finale They kept it very short, sweet, to the point, very easy Very simple, nothing to be read into here Yeah With the title, you know, we always have fun with the titles This is simply finale Uh-huh I don't know if I'm ready

[00:00:55] I was just telling you before we hit the record button here That I just don't know that I'm ready I feel like I'm going to not get in everything I want to say I feel like there's It's, yeah, there's a lot I've, like, you know, the inside baseball of it, again Is like, because we don't have, like, a set number of notes But, like, I've done pretty, like, as far as, like, points Like we used to Yeah Way back in the day But I still number them, like, points

[00:01:24] Like, you know, just so I have them And, like, I've had four major points pretty much this entire season And the least I could do on this one was six And then I was like And then notes I was like Nice I was like, hopefully you can cover some of that, too And we'll share And I was like But I was like I got a lot to talk about There's a lot here, for sure Well, that That makes me hopeful Because

[00:01:51] Because then anything that I feel like I can't say I feel you're going to cover for me And then I can be like Oh, yeah, I did want to talk about that Or, oh, I did mean to mention that note Or, you know, whatever Because I feel like I'm going to Like, we're going to end tonight And, you know, that'll be it We'll hit the stop button And then five, ten minutes after I'm going to be like Crap!

[00:02:20] I meant to say this Or that point Or talk about that line I just feel like I'm From my side Not as a collective you and I togetherness But myself I feel like I'm not going to get all the things out That I want to say I just feel like there's so much And I feel like I'm still processing You know, I watched Yeah The episode, you know, straight away last week After we had stopped recording for last week's episode I stayed up later than what I had intended But I didn't care it was worth it, you know Oh yeah

[00:02:49] And so I stayed up and watched it And was just I'm like, oh my gosh I don't know what to think And even after having all this time To try and process And think about what I wanted to say In my notes And then compiling Before, you know, we met tonight I still feel like I'm still processing I still feel like I'm not Yeah You know, having Like I feel like I'm still like Oh, can I get another week? I don't know Like, can we just hit pause

[00:03:18] And we'll come back next week? I don't know Because I feel like I still Have so many things To still process And kind of settle I think on how I feel You know, about About it being over, I guess I think Maybe it's because it's the series finale I don't know Because that's it That's it I always get so Kind of wrapped up and emotional When we wrap up a series Whether or not it's one we've covered Or even one I'm not covering You know, that we're not covering On the podcast

[00:03:47] Just one that we've, you know Watched for however many years And you have to kind of say goodbye to I'm not getting goodbyes What can I say? That's what I'm going to chalk it up to And I'm going to shut up for a minute There's still a handful of shows That I have not finished And I have one, two, three Four, five episodes left Just because it's the final season And I was not ready to let go And so I still haven't And it's like Oh man So I get that It's like I still don't know how they end

[00:04:16] So they're still running in my brain somehow I think it's I think if we hadn't been covering this show And, you know, I'm kind of forced To watch the episode, right? Because we're going to cover it And we're going to talk about it If this had just been a show I'd been watching I think I would not have watched it yet Just because I When I'm really enjoying a show It's And we all probably do this to some extent I think I've heard other people Kind of do a similar thing And like what you're saying is

[00:04:46] If I don't watch the finale Or the last few episodes Then it's still going, right? Yeah It hasn't ended So Goodbyes are rough So I think that's my struggle So I don't know I had thought about You know, we always kind of do a little What did we think about this episode? Before we start talking In our points And diving into the episode I had pondered if we wanted to do that

[00:05:15] At the same point here Before we start talking about All of our discussion points Or do we want to wait until after And kind of give our thoughts and opinions I don't know Yeah I don't know I mean, we can do as usual And talk about it But I don't know What is there really to say Aside from everything we're going to get into I guess just Yeah, just like the general feeling of I guess the question would be is Are you satisfied With the ending? I am satisfied Yes

[00:05:44] Good Yeah, I think so too I think it's Because it could have gone Several different ways And so I think this is an ending That feels poetic And it feels Really well done I think it's Absolutely the ending It should have With some Surprise Extra happy beats to it So Yeah I like it I think Yeah, I think it It wrapped up Perfectly I think Like I said There's several other endings That we could have gotten

[00:06:13] That I would not have been as happy with So I like this And where we're at I agree I agree Well Let's Let's jump into it Let's get into our Our final Talking points For The Series Finale Why don't you kick us off Where do you want to start You've got the Yeah I think you've got more At least top points Than I do So Let's go ahead and dive into them Because I can't wait to hear What you have

[00:06:42] I'll start with a really small one That I think is Is One that's kind of Unexpected Or maybe not One that you would think I'd make a whole point out of But I'm going to talk about A returning character We've had some References to And Allusions to Over the season But Will Bettelheim Is here He's back Robin Lord Taylor Always good to see him Yeah

[00:07:12] I was wondering If he'd make any more Appearances Like I said He'd been alluded to A couple times Over the season Where he's like I've got a friend Who can do this And we were like Yeah we know Who he's talking about And so it was It was cool to see him They actually brought him back To kind of Film these like Separate scenes He's Joe's You know Man in the chair Remotely Of course like Through this I was like I hope he's not aware Of the kind of stuff That he's abetting in And helping Joe Run from And

[00:07:41] I was like He knows Joe's Not a good guy Because the way They met was him Being abducted by Joe And put in the cage But It's like He knows Joe's Not a good guy And he'll kill people Like I don't know I feel like Hopefully there's A good part of Will That he's like He's not fully aware Of like All these things He's helping him do It's like Oh because of You did this thing And this thing And this thing But I mean What good reason Is somebody Going to be hitting you After like I need fake passports

[00:08:10] And I need to get here And I need to So like Yeah He's not asking a lot of questions I don't think No he's not So we don't really get any answers We don't see After the last time We see Will We don't see anything else So then it's just like In my head I'm thinking I was like What is this Where does the trajectory Of Will Bettelheim's life Go from here You know That's a follow up We didn't get Is what What are his thoughts And I'll get to that

[00:08:40] But just some of those Like questions And things about him Because I was like Well we know Joe Doesn't have money To be paying Will For these favors Not after like Kate cleaned him out Yeah So I was like Is he just still on credit For the don't You know Didn't kill him in the box Deal It's like I didn't kill you Give me the things And then later We heard he's like Well he did buy my house I was like Okay So there is While Joe had money He was He's definitely been Keeping up his part Of the bargain

[00:09:08] Of financially supporting And giving things To Will Their deal has Continued on For these favors Which it's funny That like You think about it It's like Joe kept him on retainer Because even somewhere In the back of Joe's mind He knew things Were going to go sideways At some point Like I've got to have a guy That can do passports And hacking Joe was always Pretty good About having A backup plan In case In case Things fell apart Now Obviously in the end

[00:09:37] Things didn't work out The way he wanted But he He always had A way Of being Nimble And Tools in his toolbox You know That just in case Crap hit the fan Then You know So yeah I agree with that I was I love that you Asked that question Like You know How much does Will At least at the time Up until the end Where we get You know Joe's arrest And such And I'm sure That made

[00:10:07] Headlines That I'm sure Will Now knows You know In the end You know What Joe was responsible For and who He truly was But yeah It's like Oh darn Now Will's Really complicit You know Like It really questions How much he knows Because He was Can't really call Him a good guy But he was A fun character Yeah For sure For sure Entertaining At the least Robin Lord Taylor Does a Great job with him He's just a Kind of a likable guy And I think he brings That into Into Will

[00:10:36] To But that's a good question Like what What is What was he thinking And I think You're right I think That It sounds like Joe has just been Funding his lifestyle In some manner In a way to kind of Keep him on retainer And to kind of keep him Like well you owe me Kind of way Yeah It's a good point And then So yeah His big purpose In this episode Besides yeah We have like the passport Stuff and everything That's just kind of Underlying But really his Why we have him here In this episode

[00:11:05] I think is to see Some of his reaction to But he's Connecting Joe to Henry For that final That scene That one Where you know He's like yeah I can connect you to him Through the video game He's playing He's like I found the server He's playing on I can join that server As a player And then Through the voice chat In that server I'll just You get my mic And then through speaker You can talk to him Um This is like man

[00:11:36] That's I get It's like It puts Will In an interesting situation It's like okay Now you're bringing Like an innocent child Into this situation That you're Abetting in And you're helping with But then there are The heart strings He's pulling at it Because like it's my son And I want And it's like He's also like Yeah I can I can get that You're gonna do anything You're gonna move Heaven and earth For your child So You know If I can help you I'm gonna help you Uh Yeah Also random Just side thing I was like The fake passports Under the names Ezra and Ella

[00:12:05] The vampire story characters I was like Yeesh Ah That's what you came up with Yeah but then we get That Henry scene Which I'm sure We'll talk about More in depth later But Just Will's aspect of it With the point being him Is he didn't give a whole lot Face acting and reaction wise But there's like He's listening in On this conversation And the things that Henry is saying to Joe And

[00:12:34] You see a little bit of Like it cuts to To Will When he's like You know What did you do to mommy And I think that There's something in Will That's going like If I didn't know What I was dealing with Before I do now Like this is I'm like I hope Will is feeling Pretty awful about He's like Who is this person That I've been helping out What is really going on And So you know We see Joe hang up the phone But I feel like Will Probably had nothing more To say to Joe After that conversation either He's probably It was probably a good riddance Kind of moment for Will To be like

[00:13:04] Yeah I think this This is where we part ways This is We're done Here I hope that's kind of Again he doesn't give a lot But Within not giving a lot I think it did say something Just his face Being very like There's cogs turning On the inside And he was like Oh no What am I dealing with What am I a part of right now Yeah It's one thing You know Helping Helping Joe But then to Bring in

[00:13:33] Like an innocent child You know I'm sure It His expression Does kind of Make you wonder If He regretted His part In that You know Without that We wouldn't have had I don't think That mental breakdown That we had from Joe Definitely a catalyst In In that happening So I think that was something That Had to happen Yeah But Yeah That All of that was really interesting I'm Curious Like

[00:14:02] You know Like once Will was in the Philippines Couldn't he just Like what kind of Other tie I mean Obviously there's money But What What was stopping Will I wonder from just like Yeah I don't I don't want your money This is You know We're We're kind of done Not going to be your resource You know Anymore Don't Don't contact me What was Joe going to do to him I mean Will's kind of untouchable Yeah There So I don't know Again

[00:14:32] What was Keeping Keeping Will in the In the loop And wanting to help him So Will Bettelheim One of our final reunions Nice Point I like it I'm going to try to make sense Out of All of my rantings That I've managed to To put on I'll say paper with quotes Or Electronic paper Yeah But I Again I just

[00:15:01] This Hopefully will make some sense It felt like it made sense As I was putting all of this down I'll go ahead and just Start with Louise One of my questions When we Wrapped Last week's episode When she had saved him From the fire You know That was one of my questions Was What in the world Is her plan What is she thinking What What are her next moves You know I mean

[00:15:31] She says She kind of says it In a way But I'm like Well how are you planning On executing this And What in the world Are you thinking Putting yourself Into This much danger You know If If If now It's Been Broken through To you How much of a Danger And threat Joe is That you're willing To put yourself You know Through this And how are you Hoping to accomplish This Because Joe is pretty Predictable

[00:16:01] Kate called it out Like You know Oh you're so predictable So I I think Louise has You know Has that firm Plan in her head And we get to see It play out What was so Interesting About this Finale For me Was In this whole First half You're getting What seems like A fantasy Love story Like We're getting Joe's Happy ending Right This is Yeah He thinks Everything's Working out Perfectly So everything

[00:16:30] Seems like Butterflies And rainbows To Joe And then It flips In the second Half To like This scary Movie So that That's one Thing that I Found about This finale Really interesting But What I Realized Is that Bronte Didn't Save Joe You know For Because she Loved him She Wanted to Make sure That He faced A trial And To get I don't know She was seeking

[00:17:00] Answers She wanted To really Know What What Happened To Beck I Think She Needed To I Think That Conversation With Marianne Really Did Help Break Through To Her In Season Five I Think This Whole Season Really Showed Joe In In In In

[00:17:44] How He's Able To Control And Giving And Joe Makes Himself The Center Of Her Universe That Is Such Predatory Behavior Yeah And I And I She Became Blind To That I Know She Went In Thinking She Had Full Control Of Her Senses And Joe Broke Her Down Because He Made Her Dependent On Him Yeah It's So Believable To Me This Character

[00:18:14] Of Louise Slash Bronte That Even After Learning Who Joe Is That She Can Still Be Vulnerable To Him That She Can Still Kind Of Want To Believe Him I Saw So Much Of That Struggle With Or At How I Interpret It Interpreted It That's Not Coming Out Right When During This Episode You Can See Her Being Very Brave And Courageous

[00:18:44] And Holding That Gun To Him And Saying I'm Not Listening To You I'm Not Falling For Your Bullshit Anymore But Then When Joe Would Start Talking To Her And I'm Just Like Oh You Need To Shut Him Down Because He Would Start Talking To To Her And You Can See That Struggle She Doesn't Have Say Anything You Can Just See It On Her Face I Understand Her I'm Like I Feel Like That's Part Part Of Being Romantic It's Like You Want To Believe These Things Right You Yeah All The things That Joe Is Saying To Her Like

[00:19:14] He's Not Completely Wrong With Some Of The Things That He's Saying You Know And Wanting To Be Loved Being Romantic And All Of These Things That He Says To A Person It's So Easy To Get Swept Up Into That Hard Call Brontan And Like I Said I Admitted Last Last Week You Know When I Was I Gave Her Really Hard Time And I Had To Kind Of Step That Back A Little Bit And And Recognize That Louise Was Someone Who Fell For Joe In The Beginning She Went In She Thought Her Eyes Were Open

[00:19:44] She Fell For Him And Woke Up And Then Turned Around And Did The Same Thing To Joe That Joe Does To Women She Was Able To Get His Trust Back She Was Able To Get A Gun On Him In A Very Vulnerable Moment With Joe And That's What He's Done

[00:20:14] Was Louise Being The One That Was Able To Bring Joe Down Because She She Took His Own His Own Pattern That He Has With Women And Turned It Against Him Yeah There Was Some Really Cool Like Spots Especially One That I Had To Write Down That's Especially Like That Where You Know Taking Kind Of His Moves Because He's Very Good At Like You Said Some Of The Things He Says Aren't Wrong They're True But It's Just The Manipulative Way He Uses The Truth Right

[00:20:44] And She Plays That Moment Whenever They're Eating Like That Meal Together And She's Asking How Does Your Story End And They're Just Having This Conversation It Was Honestly Maybe The Smartest Move She Made The Whole Episode I Had To Write Down Is Because She Could Tell She Was Like I'm Risking Losing This Because He Can Tell This Nervous Energy That I'm Pulling Away There's He Senses Fear In Me And Even In His Own Inner Monologue She Scared

[00:21:13] And She Realizes I Could Ruin This Whole Plan Once He Smells Fear That Something Is Wrong So She Channels That Nervous Energy Into Real Questions About What Joe Deserves And If She Makes It In His Story And She Is Able To Mask Those Actual Questions She Really Does Want Answers To Or She's Really As As Questions About Their Relationship Not Her Literal Life Consequences And His

[00:21:43] Comeuppance To Take The Truth The Real Questions That Are On Her Mind That Are Creating This Nervousness And Suspicious Behavior In And Putting To And To I'm Referring To Our Relationship But Do I Make It Yeah It Was Part Of Her Yeah Because She Could Take That Like You Said She Could Take That Because He Can Sense Her Being Scared She Can Frame It In Well Yes But Not In The Way That You Think Right It's

[00:22:13] I'm Yeah Like This So Yeah It Was Very Smart Yeah So In His Mind Now Yeah The Fear On Top Of You He's In That Like In General You Know More Power

[00:22:43] Position And It's Like What You Should Have Done You You Know Hindsight Whatever Me He's Like Convince Him To Let You Tie Him To The Bed Uh You Guys Have Done The Bondage Thing Before It Was Reversed But Like Yeah You Don't Reverse The Rolls Make It Sexy And Then You Pull The Rug Out And Make Him Confess Do Your Spiel All That Because You Left Him Fully Unrestrained And That Was A Mistake Yeah I Yeah There Were There Were Some I Think

[00:23:12] Missteps In The Finale I Was Satisfied And I Thought There Were So Many Great Things About It But There Were A To Disarm You Very Quickly So I Agree Not Probably Not As Realistic Maybe But I Had To Just Suspend The Disbelief And Think Oh Joe Is Just So Shocked He Doesn't React

[00:23:42] That Way That's How I Had To Make It Sense She Did Blindside Him Again It Was Cool Like You Said Taking His Methods His Style And Fully Turning On And Yeah It I Did Like Cause We Mention Last Week It's Like Oh We're Getting Her Inner Monologue How Much Of That Are We Gonna Get And We It Was A Good Like Bounce Between The Two Of Them Throughout The Episode Which Was Really Cool Uh On There Bonnie And Clyde

[00:24:12] Drive Away Together Headed Towards Freedom Or So It's Like Yeah Kind Of Figures Like They're Not Taking Joe Out In The First Five Minutes But Nah We Still Got Plenty Of Episodes To Go Yeah Yeah Um And Just Like Yeah A lot Of Little Things That Build The Suspense In Her Plan As You See Her

[00:24:42] Nervousness Threatening To Make Things Fall Apart But You Kind Of With Her Tool That She Makes That Move That I Mention You Know So That The Gas Station Loading Up On Snacks Maybe A Self Defense Tool While She's At It Finding A Copy Of Beck's Book This Gas Station Has Everything Quite Convenient Copy Of Beck's Book That's Another Thing It's Like Hmm The Gas Station Just Happens To Have A Copy Of Beck's Book Okay Yeah I Don't Think That Was Initially Part Of The Plan But Then It Becomes It Yeah You See Her Like She's So

[00:25:12] Jumpy Cause Like She Gets Back In The Car With Him And He Reaches Down To Grab The Marshmallow She's Like What Are You Doing Like She's Thinking He's Going For The Gun He's Going For The Book He's Going For The It's Like Yeah If You're Going To Pull Something Over On Joe Goldberg You're Going To Have To Calm Down He's Very Intuitive Most Most Times I mean He's Yeah He's Also Very Delusional When He's At The He's Delusion He is Kind Of Like Oh You Know He'll Misread It In Some

[00:25:41] Way But He Can Also Be Very Intuitive So You Have To Be Very Careful For Sure With Him I Do Agree With Luis Though On One Thing Marshmallows Are Magical I Don't Know What It Is About Them There Is Something About Them That Makes Pure Magic But Yeah Just Yeah The The Nervousness And Like A Less Affection Again One Of Those Times She Almost Catches Self Up Is Like She Realizes Oh I Gotta Amp Up My Acting Skills Is Like He Goes Over To Give Her A Kiss And She So

[00:26:11] In Her Head That It's Half Hearted And Followed Up With But She's Like Okay Gotta Pump Up The Acting Skills But It's After That She Goes Into The Bedroom And Oh Of Course He's Gonna Want That And She's Like I Can Sit Here And Fake It And Kiss Him And Be Romantic And Say Owie Gooey Lovey Dovey Stuff But

[00:26:41] When It Comes To That I I Convince Him That Like Oh I Have A Headache Like It's Yeah After Everything They've Been Through It's Like No He's Really Gonna Sense Something Is Off If If She's Off In That Area So And She's Aware Of The Danger She's In You Know She's As She's Trying To Plan

[00:27:11] Everything She's Like Man We Went Out To The Secluded Spot It's Like It's Set Up A Good Position For Me To Pull Off My Plan However He Also Has The Ultimate Advantage If I Screw It Up Yeah Scary But What A Great Location That They For For This Finale Very Secluded And Scary Movie Like As We Get Into The Second Half Yeah Yeah

[00:27:41] So The Last I Guess Thought On That For Me Like Yeah It's The Book That I Mean It Wouldn't Have Been Part Of The Initial Plan Because She Picked It Up At The Gas Station But Then Making That Part Of The Plan To I Then Appreciate The Full Circle Like Way Of

[00:28:12] You Wrote And Those Those Those Lines That I Love It Wasn't Enough That You Took Her Life You Had To Take Her Fucking Voice To Which Was Great And Then Of Course The Way She's Like You You Erased Me Slowly Taking Everything But The Way She Ends That Is The Least I Can Do Is Erase You So Good Lot Of Good Lines And That's Definitely One Of Them I Love It Well

[00:28:42] That Was My First Point And You Added Your Contributions There Do You Want To Move On To Your Next Point Sure It's A Way Of Knocking Out Two Points In One So We Try To Balance Out That's Okay We're Going To Be Hitting On A Lot Of The Same Stuff Yeah So See And This One We've Talked About A Little Bit Is Just Like Another Kind Of Quick But Fun Point For Me That I Just Titled Joe's Delusion I Just Wanted To Highlight A Couple Of

[00:29:20] He's He's Messed Up After Everything That Happened With Kate And Marianne And Nadia That He's Over Correcting So I Think If This Was Any Other Normal Circumstance He Would Have Caught On To Louise So Much Quicker And So Much Easier But We See Him Like In His Own Head Where He's Suspicious Of Her And Then He's Telling Himself No It's Because Kate And Marianne And Nadia Got In Your Head And He's Over Correcting He's Ignoring I Was Like Those Women Are Trying To Ruin My Life

[00:29:50] Why Would They Do These Things To Me And So Thank God His Misogynistic Victim Blaming Mentality Is Helping Him Ignore Bronte's Nervousness Like That's True I think That Helped Her Along The Way But Yeah Just Like Some Of Those Deluded Moments That Are Of Course Gotta Bring Up The Hat When The Cop Of The Station Doesn't Recognize Joe Because The Hat Of Invisibility Is Foolproof We Know That It's

[00:30:19] Proving Itself Time And Time Again Yes But Then Yeah He's Worried That He's Going To Recognize Bronte At That Time Was Like Which He Doesn't Although The Officer Does Even Clock Her Nervous Energy A Little Bit Being Like Are You Okay Do You Need Help She Was Really Struggling To Keep Herself Together That Whole Day It's Probably Pretty Tempting To Not Just Turn To That Cop And Be Like Yeah See That Guy Right There And Then Like Spill Everything Or Yes I Need Help You Know Right

[00:30:49] There Also Earlier Whenever They're Looking At The Map Whatever And He's Like Warning Louise About The So You Know Kate Sent This You Audio Of Me To The Police That Pretty Damning But Then The Way He Goes You You But It Makes Perfect Sense In Context It Makes What Exactly What Context Would That Be Joe I Would Love To Hear It I Would Love To Hear The Context Where The Things You Said On That Recording Make Perfect Sense It's Going To

[00:31:19] Be Hard To Talk My Way Out Of This One But It's Okay We're Going to Let The Noise Die Down For A No Lay low I At The House There's A couple Other Little Moments The Move In The Boat Where He Has Her Stand Up And Then Lays Underneath And Looks Up At

[00:31:49] Through The Stars You Know It Seems Like A Very Super Romantic Gesture And Even In Louise's Mind She's Like Oh My God You Love To Be Loved And Why Do I Feel So Good But Because We Know Joe And What's At I Told You I Put You At The Center Of The Universe And It's Like I Know What That Means To You The Underlying Thing Of That Is This Act This Romantic Gesture Is Just

[00:32:19] Another Form Of Him Controlling Put Putting A Woman Where He Wants Her To Be For His Own Gain Creating The View In Which He Can Look At Her How She Can Exist This Is The Way That I Want You To Be In My Mind Not What You Want To Be But Like I'm Going To Take You Now Joe

[00:32:49] Yeah Well He Even You Know Later Tells Her You Would You Know You You Wouldn't Be Who You Are Without Me I Made You Yeah You Know And So That Really Plays Into That And It Really Does In A Physical Way Show You How Joe Puts Women On A Pedestal And He Projects Onto Them Into You Know Him Thinking

[00:33:18] Or Projecting Who He Thinks They Are Not Who They Really Are You Know All These Women We've Always Seen Through His His Lens And This This Is Kind Of A Physical Way Of Doing That Is How He's Propping Up Bronte On Onto This Pedestal Yeah He He's At Such An Insane Level Of Deluded By A Point In This Episode That He Is Sitting In A Room Held At Gunpoint Literally Thinking Well She Hasn't Shot

[00:33:48] Me Yet So That Means There's Still A Chance Oh My God It's Okay This Is How These Tropes Go Right That's What He's Sitting Here Telling Himself People Come Back For More Than This She Hasn't Killed Me Yet There's Hope For Us Man And Then To Go From That Which Makes You Laugh Then He Turns From That To Where I'm Like God He Is So Disgusting

[00:34:18] As Then Turning To Her When She Tells Him Stop With This And Then That's When He Starts Getting Like Vile Towards Her You know You're Not Scared Of Me You're Scared Of The Absence Of Me If I'm Gone Nobody Will Ever Love You Like I Love You Ever Again I Love You More Than You Love Yourself Just Shoot Him Just Just That's Enough The Vile I Mean And We're Just Starting

[00:34:48] You Know At That Point At The Level Of How How Low He Goes But Yeah That I Was Just When He Said No One Will Ever Love You Like I Do Ever And I I I I I

[00:35:26] I pointing out some of those like Joe is this again that just how Luis is smart I'm giving her a lot of credit but also like she's very lucky that like the time that she's catching him in he is so mentally disconnected that like it does definitely help her case that she catches him in a place where his like delusion has never been higher yeah I really feel he

[00:35:56] was really kind of slipping again not maybe in the same way he did in season four where he really just kind of completely split from himself but I do think he was slipping even heavier into his to delusion I think that what did play a part into giving like a little bit of a buffer to Joe and him being able to maybe be a little bit more receptive to

[00:36:25] Bronte I know he was kind of picking up a little bit but I think that he was he kind of kept rationalizing it when she was you know scared of him or whatever he was kind of rationalizing like well of course she's you know kind of kind of scared of me you know so I think it helped I I agree well I talked about you know earlier how this episode you know we got like the Joe's version of this happy ending in this first half where you know

[00:36:55] I thought I remember watching it I'm like oh my gosh is he really gonna get away with it like is this how is this how it's gonna go you know I'm just sitting here like just every every second like waiting to see how it was gonna unfold but then it twisted into I think of like a scary movie this was very scary movie-esque into the second half as we get into that part where she has him at gunpoint in the bedroom which is very poetic

[00:37:25] I like that it happened in a bedroom because Joe's been this romantic man for the women that he has obsessed over and so I think it was very fitting that this what I'm calling this point the deconstruction of Joe it becomes more of a struggle when she goes for the phone which again I thought Bronte I know you're probably on edge

[00:37:54] and her nerves are at an all-time high I'm sure but why oh why would you not make him back up to different side of the room or make him sit away away in a chair to be able to go to the phone why would you get anywhere near him that was a mistake that shouldn't have happened and because of that we get this physical struggle yeah between Joe and and Louise that was a tough watch and it reminded me I know we've

[00:38:23] I think we've called it out multiple times in our coverage of the series I don't know that we've seen that level of violence that Joe has shown towards the women in this show yeah we've I think we've only actually seen him kill the men in the show his victims I don't think we've actually seen with women in that way it's always after the fact

[00:38:53] yeah and I believe and I'm going to talk more about it later and one of my points I'm going to kind of talk about all of the seasons and how they've all kind of come together but I I think that that's intentional I think it was intentional for us to not see that it was hard to watch you know this this physical struggle between them seeing that level of violence that he's inflicted directly we know it we know it we know he's killed these people and so we know

[00:39:23] the we know what he's capable of we know the levels he's willing to go to but to actually see it was like oh boy now we're now we're getting it and I think for the first time since I've started the show I was scared of Joe like it was creeping that way all season like you could really see how unhinged he's becoming and how he's you know admitting yeah I like killing people that's just me take it or leave it you know

[00:39:53] but this episode where we're just really getting this raw part of Joe an animalistic version of Joe was scary yeah and so we get this physical struggle with them and that effect with the light I was kind of swinging back and forth I loved that effect I did too yeah I think it highlighted the intensity of the scene not that it needed highlighting but I think it just it leveled up that that intensity

[00:40:22] for me and I think it gave it more of that scary movie likeness to it yeah during this struggle you know there's the back and forth she runs out comes back confronts again she jumps out the window and hurts her ankle and we got a revelation that Joe hurt her ankle to begin with after he quote rescues her from oh what was his name was it Dane

[00:40:52] Dane yeah you know she had hurt her ankle and he had her hand cuffed to the bed I was suspicious then you know when he's like oh you know you're just healing from your ankle and I'm like did she really hurt that ankle in her confrontation with Dane I think not the not being able to dial 911 from the phone was a little hard to believe I don't know it's I was like well cracked screen plus bloody hands maybe I I can take that but I'm

[00:41:22] like I I feel like there's a and I and I'm saying this and I can't even tell you for sure what it is it probably depends on the phone that you have that there's a way to still be able to dial 911 without having to actually dial 911 or being able to yeah there's a there's a trick to it or short the way that like the buttons you press like on the side at least with an iPhone that I've got yeah like the way that you hold like the volume and the power button together and then that way you can like swipe to turn your phone off there's also a like SOS button on that screen as well so if you hold those

[00:41:52] two buttons down then you can hit the SOS and it'll like call for help right I'm pretty sure I've done that not actually called but seen that yeah I've accidentally done it before yeah I'm like oh no don't do that like please don't it has like a little countdown it's like all right we're calling the authorities in three two one you're like nope nope cancel I'm good I'm good yeah like I don't want to like get in trouble for accidentally calling and then tracking me down or something so I'm like no no no but yeah there's you know anyway I get it

[00:42:22] like Joe's coming after her bloody fingers she's shaking the screen is cracked I get it but I was just like I don't know gotta be another way she sees Joe running back to the house after she has come come back in to retrieve the phone and I just want to call out that was intense just something so menacing about seeing him

[00:42:52] run across the lawn like that and the dude is stripped down to his underwear which again perfect I think that they did that that they chose to like literally and figuratively stripping him down to like an animal like a monster so I really liked that choice that they made I had to I thought I was like my gosh look at that dude run that is scary but also how'd he get so fast because if you think about season one when he is stalking peach

[00:43:21] in central park the dude is like constantly bending over trying to catch his breath and cannot run for shit after the peach situation he was like all right I gotta get more cardio in deal figured lesson learned up the cardio if we're gonna be a serial killer I guess have you ever seen the movie behind the mask the rise of leslie vernon it's a smaller like indie film scott wilson is it the late scott wilson but it's it's a

[00:43:51] movie that is like a fake documentary of this like film crew that's following a serial killer and he's like telling him how he does all of his stuff or whatever and it's like a comedy it has like a twist into it that gets very like scary becomes like full horror but one of my favorite lines from that he's like one of the most important things to be a serial killer is like cardio cardio cardio is like you've got to know how to be like you know he's like because you've got to be running like a gazelle to keep up with your victim but also know that

[00:44:20] anytime they turn around to look at you you have to be walking like there's no effort at all and then when they look away cardio like zombie land yeah I don't remember which rule it was but one of the rules was cardio that's for sure yeah he had to have learned his lesson I know that there was a clip of Joe in one I don't remember which episode but one of the episodes here in season five

[00:44:52] one were like oh look there's Moonies so sounds like yeah he decided to up his cardio game because I thought that is a different Joe than what we saw on season one where the dude could not keep up with Peach as he was stalking her but that was terrifying you know after Louise she's jumping out the window finds out that Joe was the one I think just I think that was

[00:45:22] it for Joe yeah he just didn't where he's yelling yeah mentions yeah breaking like hurting her ankle and then it was like I didn't know it was gonna help me kill you later I was like that's after because like the phone she had successfully dialed because you hear the operator on the phone and so the phone is saying there so I was like well thanks for admitting out loud your intention of murder for the nice emergency operator on the phone good job Joe recording that I'm sure and caught that little nugget of information yeah that so he's

[00:45:52] he's completely unhinged we know all of these things we know all about Joe we the audience have all that information and we know but seeing him completely all sense of pretense is gone was so scary and him chasing her to the edge of the lake tackling her screaming at her do you want to know what I did

[00:46:22] to Beck how I killed her let me show you absolutely terrifying they have more struggle she gets away from him but then I'm like why did you run to the lake I I don't look I don't know what the right choices were here at all I'm not saying she should have done one thing or another but I can tell you what she shouldn't have done and that was go to the water right one other little gripe and it was just

[00:47:07] so intense but I was so distracted by this weird continuity error that was in there because he tackles her into the water and then you see an underwater shot of

[00:47:37] it was like one of those little things that like film brain I was like we saw how deep the water was here and now he's barely going over his knees I have more thoughts on that or some notes on that lake when we wrap later but yeah that's a good pickup a very good pickup you know another struggle in

[00:48:07] lose Louise is yeah did he did he get her and it made me really sad because I really wanted her to survive thankfully she did I assume what we're led to believe I assume she faked drowning that she was smart enough to do that I think she knew that if she didn't fake it that he she would have he would have not relented until until she was gone and I

[00:48:37] think that was another smart thing that she did was faking that yeah yeah I do believe it because at first I was just like wait what you know when she turned back up into the woods because at that point you know which honestly I don't think he the cop

[00:49:06] he like completely fleeing the scene how am I going to get out here dude it is raining and pouring he is barefoot he is stripped down to his underwear how the hell is he gonna get out one thing that I loved about this after he leaves the lake and he's running through the woods did you notice the lack of his inner voice and inner monologue during that whole time

[00:49:37] no I didn't I didn't really even pick up on that but that's good I love that they did that the lack of his inner voice during this whole time so he's left Louise he is Joe's inner voice during this time I feel like it has to

[00:50:07] be intentional on the writer's part and by doing that it takes us out of Joe's head and it gives us a the way he you know be talking about trying to get away it

[00:50:36] it takes us out of that and gives us finally like our perspective now like this isn't Joe's point of view anymore it we finally get to see and it leaves no room to like empathize with him anymore because that was you know that's taken away by not hearing his inner monologue and being able to see his side being nearly naked had the effect too of basically him as a monster

[00:51:06] yeah a slightly less hairy werewolf running around out in the woods yeah and when we when Louise ends up finding him like we learned oh she's thank goodness not really dead comes up on him I mean I think we both said we were satisfied with how it ended did it surprise you to like hear him plead with her to take him out so he didn't get captured not really I

[00:51:36] think like I said he was cornered like you said like a wild animal he's tried the what wild animals do when they're cornered usually attack and then at that point it's like then that doesn't work if they're not going to you think at least some smaller predators and stuff then they just kind of give up right and I think that's where he's at it's almost there's a sacrifice there that's okay then just kill me I

[00:52:06] surrender I don't want any more of this and so I like you know what she says to him is exactly the fears that he has where she's like no you don't get to choose like that easy way out of like okay all of your consequences have come to you know to land here and no I'm not going to just kill you so you don't face any of them no you have to live with that you know she says you

[00:52:56] how it ended honestly I felt like that was just one more manipulation to her because if she had done that that's inflicting additional trauma on her like she would then have to live with that that she shot and killed him then he's going to be a part of her exactly exactly like she she'd never be able I don't think anyway

[00:53:25] like said move on from that she's always going to have to live with that she'd always be thinking about it and that is inflicting like she's already been through how much right trauma and he's then pleading with her to inflict even more trauma on herself he it kind of a true form of poetic justice that his story of freedom does end by

[00:53:55] getting shot in the dick um obviously saw her you know shooting him when he lunges at her and I really think that it was him forcing her to shoot him and I think in the hopes of ending it right there not injuring him to he would just you know be temporarily injured and then being captured but I think it was him forcing her like I will

[00:54:25] come at you forcing me forcing your hand to get what I want and I like that he didn't get what he wanted it was justice for Joe truly emasculating honestly in more ways than one yeah one other thing to say about like because we talk about the cop that he took out is the same officer from the gas station or not but okay because I said there was a lot of ways this episode in series could have ended that I

[00:54:55] really would have hated and then part of me because I've watched too many of these serial killer or person running from the cops or you know these different things there was a tiny part of me as he drags that officer body back behind that log I was like no are you gonna put on the officer's uniform and then try to escape that way it's like don't please I'm so glad they didn't do that but there was a part of me that was like don't do that yeah I wondered the same hope you get him guys I'm going back yeah

[00:55:25] all clear over here you know and just I've seen it happen in so many different movies and things it's like don't do that so I'm glad they did not go that direction but I thought I was worried I thought as he like goes back over to the officer's body sitting there like don't don't show don't do it I agree with you I'm glad they didn't go that route I also had the same thought for just a few seconds I thought oh no gonna do the whole switcheroo I don't know this was this was

[00:55:55] intense I really really love well it was all hard to watch but I think that it was absolutely necessary to finally just strip down and like like if you didn't see it before if you needed that wake up call if you hadn't already gotten it then this should have done it for you you know empathizing in any way with Joe or you know rooting for him in any way this this whole sequence

[00:56:24] hopefully hopefully took care of that and I thought they did just a brilliant job and honestly I can't say it enough times you know give Penn Badgley his flowers and all the awards because he just really knocked it out of the park yeah yeah just obviously Madeline Brewer had a really great trusting relationship with him on set with a lot of that stuff because like some of the like the scenes and stuff they had in this

[00:56:53] episode to where they're like just my like weird thoughts like I'm just having because I was like I know that like TV shows movies have an intimacy coordinator on set for like sex scenes and romantic scenes I was like would they probably need something like that also for these like highly violent and like physical scenes like this too like there's gotta be some form of somebody who's willing to work with them on just their own mental places and scenes like that too it's just a random thought I

[00:57:28] well I'm sure they do and saw some you know clips of different interviews and Penn Badgley if you've not you know seen him in interviews or on a podcast or anything like that seems like a pretty darn good human I thought that I had seen a clip with him and Madeline Brewer doing an interview and where he's you know talking about you know as they're trying to do these scenes

[00:57:58] and they're you know being violent and I think especially like when he's like on top of her and has his hands on her that you know he would often check in on her like are you okay are you good you know you know and how those kind of you know scenes are played out and you know I think she's talked about you know how it can affect you even though all of this is acting you know and you know that none of it's real it can still have quite an

[00:58:27] impact on you and you you kind of take that away so hopefully there's some things happening behind the scenes taking care of these folks as they're having to you know go through these kinds of scenes yeah and she's no stranger to potentially traumatic roles I mean she played Janine on Handmaid's Tale for all the seasons like she she's been in some rough stuff before she I feel like she's got a great base on on her what she knows she's able to do yeah

[00:58:58] okay what where do you want to go next what's your next point all right well I do have a music section that I was going to have as a point but I could I can I can hold off on that one to get one more big while we're dealing with the meaty good points which is just the aftermath kind of the end of the episode and where we see where all you know everything lies or all the chips lie at the end of this thing

[00:59:28] honestly it maybe would have been nice to see the trial yeah to see Joe face all of his evils have to sit with them see the faces the voices of people he's impacted but you know the show can only be so long we don't have that kind of time it's just like that there could be a whole other episode just in that no kidding yeah um yeah just to kind of see where I like that we get with Louise's voiceover touching base

[00:59:57] on where everybody is and kind of how everything's landed and how everyone's doing which is cool of course before that you know I had to do the pausing and the social media comments and posts again because there was a few a few of them not as many few gems out there yep but of course the there was a live stream of him while he was in the courthouse being you know walked through by like the marshals and stuff and so there's just a few little comments on there that I paused and got

[01:00:27] those ones which were lock him up throw away the key emoji prince charming nope perp walk bitch he deserves whatever he gets imho and then just a fire emoji which I don't know which way that person's taking that I don't know and then we get the like social media posts hashtag Joe Goldberg rolling up to jail like and a picture of a kin doll which was funny Joe doesn't deserve a dick

[01:00:56] some deer finding Joe's blown off dick just like a picture of like deer's face confused deer and then of course even Cardi B has turned on him he's truly got nobody now with Cardi B's tweet or whatever he was a 10 now he's a 2 dot dot dot inches and then the last one is just this like small one that was like under Cardi B's that never got zoomed in on but it was just like just a funny one to include is this person just typing I hate that guy and I'm like what it's a point alright

[01:01:29] so yeah you know I had to look into those I was hoping the only one that I really took note of was Cardi B's because I was like oh love that love getting Cardi B chiming in again absolutely perfect but yeah where everybody else is Dom and Phoenix have launched themselves as internet justice seekers there's more work to do after Joe we get Nadia working in the prison system to help women process trauma

[01:01:59] through writing which is beautiful love that Harrison Maddie and Gretchen together as a family I love the line that himbo was in jail for 48 hours and somehow managed to emerge with a prison tattoo did you see what it said Maddie and no prison time for Maddie and now she's pregnant with twins so the full family that she's always wanted good for her

[01:02:29] Kate is alive I actually love that it was a surprise so I remember last week being like I'm honestly really bummed because like she had really been on like quite the redemption arc over this season we were full on and I was there too like oh my gosh Kate died so we were like talking in the last episode like Kate being dead so it was quite a shock to see her come out there at the end I don't know I don't think I hated it but I don't know it was another

[01:02:59] where I had to kind of suspend my disbelief a little bit yeah like somebody must have you know the you know fire department uh New York must have showed up yeah pretty quickly afterwards and managed to get her out of there because she just still has all like the burns and the scars and stuff which I did like she says she wears them with you know as a badge not of pride but of penance I thought that was really powerful yeah um after surviving what the post lazily and

[01:03:28] inaccurately called Brought Day's Inferno uh and then Henry's got his mama still so I love that seeing that uh and then she's returned to the art world and especially she champions the work of one Marianne Bellamy which is really cool and they say oh look Teddy's husband and son actually exist uh yes so the under the last 10 minutes of the entire season but now we see them they're here they do exist

[01:03:58] yeah good news yeah and Teddy as CEO has turned the Lockwood Corporation into a full non-profit uh which was great good for him um Bronte re-releases Beck's book without all of Joe's additions uh you know Beck's true words and only hers it was a very bittersweet accomplishment for that it was a really nice little scene and then finally Joe on the other hand

[01:04:28] um not as happy of an ending for him in prison for life goodbye hair um still has his admirers um the the absolute psychos that write to him uh and then we see where he is it's like it's like did he learn his lesson is there a penance for Joe is there this no absolutely not even in this final voiceover we get for him he is still blaming anyone and everyone but himself oh this is a

[01:04:57] societal problem I mean look how I've been tossed aside the system that's meant to keep me down I never stood a chance you know and then I like that they end the episode in a very meta way where he's blaming us the audience the viewers basically like the people who have found themselves cheering for Joe at times over these past five seasons like you know what's wrong with you what's wrong with us the viewers uh it made me laugh for sure oh yes

[01:05:28] I like that we that we get I'm like you I wish wish we had gotten some of the trial but I'm okay without I think that it was enough to get at least that summarized version from Louise at the end so we you know we did get you know what happened in the fallout uh seeing Joe come out of the courtroom and they started playing

[01:05:58] yellow brick road I know you're going to talk about the music but boy that just hit home for me I just I love that song so much I'm a huge old John fan and have been for many years it's one of my all-time faves uh that got me so I think that was a very fitting song there is we're getting uh Joe Joe coming out of the courthouse and he just looks just completely defeated and it's I mean it's exactly what he

[01:06:27] deserves but gone is that smug look that he always had on his on his face I loved hearing the new edition of Beck's book with Joe's contributions taken out and knowing that it is more successful which it was already like when when the first one was published with whatever Joe had added to it

[01:07:15] that just broke me down I'll be honest I'm getting kind of choked up just saying it out loud now I just loved that I thought it all kind of

[01:08:45] what what a what a perfect ending for him although it was a deep cut losing the hair I just I'm a sucker for curls and that was hard I was like damn getting to see him behind bars and knowing that he's alone for forever and his internal monologue saying so in the end it's even worse than I imagined the loneliness oh my god the loneliness

[01:09:15] knowing that this is forever and yet he still after all his time cannot take responsibility for what he's done at all and he's got to deflect that blame onto others the only part he's not wrong about is how we should reflect you know I love I love that maybe we have a problem as a society maybe we should fix what's broken in us maybe the problem isn't me maybe as he's breaking the fourth wall

[01:09:45] which was awesome maybe it's you I love love that that's how how they ended the dialogue in the series with you of course the last word of the entire series is you yeah yeah but I do I do think that there's something to be said there you know about how there should be some reflection and I know in that moment as I'm listening to all this and I'm taking it in and I'm

[01:10:15] ingesting and I'm just so focused on every word and every scene and everything that's happening and what did you think of that and that little message that we got there at the end yeah it was very meta but I did like I

[01:11:01] of course not hurt people hurt people yeah it's not you saw how I was raised you saw the childhood I had and the life I lived you can't blame me for this stuff okay sure dude um but yeah so even so he's like that breaking that fourth wall of like you know we should really let how about you inspect yourselves instead of judging me it is it's it's it's funny but like you said there's there's some truth to it for sure as well you're like yeah society still has a lot of these like hangups and stuff

[01:11:30] where we uh tend to idolize and romanticize a lot of really fucked up things uh yeah yeah I'll raise my hand I I did not thirst for Joe during any of this it was all Penn Badgley and that's okay that's

[01:12:00] understandable it was not the character not the character it was you know but I think there's something to be said because we not only romanticize like real life killers but also entertainment wise you know in characters like Joe I think it's a good message you know that how about we look

[01:12:30] inside yeah a little bit and say should we be doing that it turns that mirror on us yeah a little bit did you have another point I know I've got more more things too nothing really about the yeah the show itself I've got a few other little points you know notes and the last like bigger sort of sections yeah just my music section okay well I want to talk then about the series as a whole and kind of

[01:13:00] kind of I guess the intentionality of the way that they wrote this not just the character and I know there's books right which I've not I've not ever I haven't I haven't read them I'm curious part of me now that I've watched the whole show and it's done part of me is curious about checking out some of the books and seeing how similar or how much they deviate or what yeah I'm like I'm curious now not that I already have way too many books on my you know

[01:13:29] to read list right now that I'm way behind on but let's just add more that's fine yeah let's just add more anyway I know that plays out or how the books end versus the series and how it ends so I'm not going to talk anything about that but I think at least for the

[01:13:58] show and if it follows the books I think that would be really cool but I think for the show how we had all of this build up from the very beginning season one I think was the building of empathy for Joe and the quote you in season one we know it was Beck right that was his obsession and object in in season one but I think also it was us

[01:14:28] because I think this season one was responsible for making us fall for Joe we were introduced to Joe his inner monologue he's witty he's intelligent he's vulnerable we are charmed by him we're entertained by him and I think because we learn about his story this rationalization that we get often throughout this season we can sometimes even be sympathetic towards him it's where we get a lot of his backstory and what

[01:14:58] happened to him right with his mom yeah so I think that that first season was that building of that empathy for him and then season two became more of like the savior complex that Joe has where that starts to kind of come up a little bit and the you in season two is love Quinn trying to better himself but a savior complex I think gets worse through his actions you know love starts to see Joe for who he is and learns who he

[01:15:28] is but she accepts him she doesn't reject him and we we are oddly as an audience kind of happy because of what we learned about him in season one we want we want him to be happy because we're sympathetic towards him and I think

[01:15:57] they the mirror for Joe love does what Joe does and I think part of what was interesting in season three is you know we always say well he could have just stayed with love she knew who he was and she was the same way they could have just been this couple you know that just knew each other through and through and accepted each other for who they were but what was interesting

[01:16:30] how victims react to him and so she held up this mirror like this is who you are the way that you're seeing me this is you and he he played into this victim mentality that he was a victim of love like in all the things that she did the the way that she became unhinged he was a he was her victim season four was the redemption illusion uh you in this case was marianne and then ultimately joe himself

[01:17:00] uh the season kind of flipped everything on its head joe became a target he goes on this like i'm not killing anyone anymore i've changed i've redeemed myself he tries to reinvent himself he acknowledges all the wrongdoings that he's done and he thinks that he can handle all of this um on his own but really it's all performance um we know that he's kind of split this personality and become reese and become a projection of his own mind um

[01:17:30] and then we come to season five where we get the cycle again the pattern and the reckoning and then you in season five is like every woman that he's hurt everyone that's seen through him um we get this perspective that turns in on of itself we get joe put on trial uh morally emotionally and mentally joe is finally seen as who he's always been mm-hmm

[01:17:58] we've got mary and bronte kate and nadia all become this voice of judgment he loses the narrative control uh and as far as the audience we're no longer seduced by him yeah we right and how they feels like they intentionally wrote joe this way for the entire

[01:18:28] series you was us in a way like we they intentionally made us empathize or sympathize with him the real you was the you you found along the way exactly it feels weird to keep saying that over and over again but i think i think that's what it was i feel like the the title of the show you that's that's what it was about we had to see him

[01:18:58] you know start in season one and kind of build him up a certain way and it was i think very intentional like they wrote him that way you know to be that way so we all kind of got wrapped up into that so then here at the end then that mirror's turned on us and it's like hmm maybe you should reflect you know on yourself because you were kind of along for the ride what else i think those are like my main points i think i'm kind of down to notes i'm excited that you've got

[01:19:27] a music section because yeah this was a good one yeah they held nothing back songs used in this finale episode no you know spared no expense um yeah so i just kind of go through them uh opening the episode with the national and sufion stevens once upon a poolside oh yeah it's such a ah it's a great one the national it's a good one yeah

[01:19:56] so good um really good vibe uh great opening and then in the convenience store while louise is stocking up on all this stuff just kind of over the speakers in there uh bye bye love by the everly brothers is playing which is a forever classic uh that's good stuff that's a song that should take anyone back to any point in their life um it's a great classic song um and then just

[01:20:26] filling you know that moment like the whole point kind of in the playing off the speakers like over her head this you know bye bye love bye bye happiness hello loneliness you know like it all ends here like we're on the final stretch um uh and then of course the big one was next which

[01:20:56] and there it is because I have said I think since the beginning of this season when we covered like episode one I was like I fully expect a tortured poet's department song likely in the finale like I was like I that was a called shot I was like we're gonna get Taylor Swift it's gonna be off of Torture Poets and it'll probably be in the finale because we got uh the other Taylor Swift song um in a finale episode in season three uh Exile from yeah Exile played in

[01:21:26] yeah and so I was like it's gotta happen and yeah here we are we got it guilty as sin great choice great choice we were blessed Swift has landed I was like as soon as it started playing I was like and here we are we were blessed uh to have just a few little snippets there yeah you gotta have some Swift cause I know again like we've seen it like Penn Badgley is a big Swifty and then yeah a lot of the writers and like people on this show are

[01:21:57] well and we had Antihero uh in the season 4 finale as well so that's right it was three seasons ended in a row with a Swift song yeah you gotta yeah we we had to I tell you sometimes the music is too good in this show because it makes me just want to like stop focusing on the show and just start belting the song out I know I find myself like singing Vampire Olivia Rodrigo did that to me on last week's episode where I'm like I should be paying attention to what Bronte's like

[01:22:26] inner voice is saying but I'm too busy singing with Olivia Rodrigo right now that's what I'm doing I usually be like okay let me just belt it out for a second and then I'll rewind it real quick and then focus on what I'm supposed to be doing but Guilty of Sin damn it to hell that is one of my absolute favorites from Torture Poets my Torture Poets right now can like one that I'm hanging on to Down Bad is in my rotation a lot right now that one I love damn good yep uh and then the next one while Joe is getting

[01:22:56] food and stuff prepared uh some Van Morrison we get Crazy Love playing in there just again just like those little like snippets of songs that just kind of set the tone for where we're at in the episode at the time which was really good very good uh and then Billie Eilish makes her entrance into the episode um another favorite Happier Than Ever it's a good song do love you do love some

[01:23:29] choice and they've they've used uh Billie before as well in previous seasons yes she's always a good solid choice yeah like I said spared nothing for the finale soundtrack uh and then you mentioned it earlier Sir Elton John himself goodbye yellow brick road I've seen it referenced sometimes that the music's too on the nose I love on the nose music I don't share that opinion

[01:23:58] um I absolutely love it I love it I think this was a very fitting song I mentioned it earlier um I thought it was perfect as that song started to play as he's rolling out uh handcuffed and because but it is about um uh you know a man leaving the city for a more simpler life and that is exactly where Joe is headed a very simple life super simple of jail so and so of course then the last song

[01:24:27] used right at the end into the credits um not only is it just Creep by Radiohead which is fitting in itself to end this show on but then it was technically it's it's the official name of it is the very 2021 remix and it's Tom York it's like by Tom York featuring Radiohead it's like a weird because it's like a full like a weird like slow down and creepified remix of Creep

[01:24:57] um and yeah it just feels like because it's very unsettling because it is it's in that place where they leave you with Joe kind of putting the blame back on on you the viewer and having this so it is like this warped idea of like no but you're you're the creep you're the weirdo what the hell am I doing here you're right you know it's it's yeah I love it so again like you said the on the nose stuff I love that because it does stuff to you like that you're like no this perfectly sums up exactly what's

[01:25:27] going on right now and I love that same there's a good there's a couple of good articles um that summarize that all the music from season five so if if anyone I know you've called them out um as we've broken down each episode but if you need a compiled list it's out there if you want to if you want to look for it I also uh went and searched on Spotify and there's some

[01:25:56] good playlists out there that folks have put together of of the songs so that's that's been some of my listening over this past weekend after you know kind of processing and digesting I was like what better way to kind of like do some household chores and listen to some songs um from from the season but there was something that I learned as I was going through some of the um behind the scenes things um you had talked about the lake and a little bit of continuity yeah yeah about the lake and where he's

[01:26:26] like knee deep but then another shot makes it look a lot deeper I don't know the dimensions or any proportions about the lake um it was mentioned that it was a man-made lake okay and it was not as which I thought it wasn't large by any means but it looked good size yeah in the way that they filmed it and I'm sure all of that has to do with the you know the way that they shoot their perspectives and everything else but they said it was actually pretty small um and

[01:26:56] shallow so I think that is kind of pointed out when you do see Penn Batchley kind of just only right up there to his knees I'm not sure where they got the shot where it looked a little deeper maybe they shot that maybe in a different section or something just to make it look deeper I don't know that part but the lake apparently was contaminated oh no I guess there were a lot of geese around

[01:27:25] and so they tested the lake before they did any of these scenes and there it was contaminated with I guess some very low-level E. coli and this is from an interview this is from the I believe the director in Penn you know in this interview that I picked up on I don't have it written down so I'm just this is not verbatim with the exact quotes but what they were talking about but I guess there were acceptable limits I did not know

[01:27:54] that there were acceptable limits but apparently when they tested it there were acceptable limits for them to be into this lake however because of the contamination they did have to protect themselves and so they had to in like every open orifice and I mean every open orifice had to have like some sort of like wax or something to cover these orifices like your ears and things like that

[01:28:24] to protect that water from getting in and Penn Badgley also shared that like after it was done because you know I mean he's he's down in the water she's in the water had to have like his mouth sprayed out with like some sort of antiseptic that sounds that doesn't sound fun no at all so apparently there were some interesting things happening there thought that was interesting and that I'd share that if I

[01:28:53] love a good E. coli store oh yeah of course and I had to go back because we I think we referenced earlier in one of our episodes that we were covering what Joe's body count was because I I was like I don't know I've lost count I might be wrong so call me out if this is wrong and I think this is people he's directly been directly involved with not indirectly and that's 23

[01:29:23] I think that's all the notes that I have what have you got all right just like two little many points because they're just like quick little things I'll do the heavier one first with Henry again just going back to that scene with Henry on the phone while he's on his game where Luis allows him to speak to Henry because they're in the middle of what they're doing and then the phone goes on he's like please this is my only chance my last chance he's about to lose both his parents

[01:29:53] so it was kind of this last little bit of mercy that I think she was giving him honestly though I was like it probably felt a little good for her to be witness to the last person that he thought viewed him as good and just to fully denounce him there had to be something there that kind of was like again that made Luis probably feel justified his own son is realizing who he is like

[01:30:24] if he can wake up I can wake up this is the right thing people are going to come around to who Joe really is just that but that whole thing is like you know remember when you used to come in my room and tell me there's no such thing as monsters there's no monster in my bed well you lied you're the monster I was like damn that is that callback too mm-hmm uh

[01:30:53] I was like I can only hope good things for that kid um he's got a great head on his shoulders if he's at six years old is able to you know realize that and and be in that place that mental place like it's gonna kids gonna need so much therapy but yeah like he already struggled you know already um and was seeing a therapist mm-hmm I don't know

[01:31:23] it was interesting how they kind of left henry there in bed with kate or well was yep she was in bed with him and he kind of rolled over as as you hear louise's um monologue you know about him hope how'd she say it like hoping that he he has to make a choice how he's gonna treat treat women yeah it's like he'll have to be and yeah I think honestly I have the hope for him that like

[01:31:53] seeing it's not so much that he's gonna repeat the sins of his father I think he's gonna see the damage and the wake of destruction of his father and hopefully that puts him in a very different position he's like well obviously if there's one good thing my father taught me is how not to be a man I hope so I hope it goes that way yeah yeah as you said the callback to season three because that's what Joe recalls those were the final words of love Quinn

[01:32:23] he'll know what you are and there it was yeah her dying words and then of course yeah as we talked about that sends him into his meltdown but maybe he does deserve better than me he's like yeah thank Joe he definitely does yeah and so then the last one was just like a small little thing was just the house and that like them finding that house because it's just the most Joe

[01:32:53] way imaginable where it's just like you know let me take you surprise you with here we're at this beautiful secluded country house the location of the final showdown he did not realize but it's an Airbnb with no cameras no alarms and for a little while no bookings and so it's like we're just gonna sneak on and of course he's done the research to be like we're completely secluded nobody knows we're here I can't help be like the owner can swing by at any time unannounced I'd be worried about

[01:33:23] that in far away places but but a lot of cases like in places like they live somewhere nearby or like they can't always pop in and check in on the properties I

[01:34:02] did just checking in on the property making sure that hey maybe there aren't any psycho killers squatting in your secluded property yeah big big chance there yeah but then I did like the little interaction that I thought was actually really clever kind of writing and then just from from Luis but you know the way he's like I'll be back

[01:34:32] never would have met which was fun I was like okay yeah it's funny yep we wouldn't be here we wouldn't have season five yeah but that's it that's all the notes I had I think I've done it all that was great all good points I hope I hope I've gotten I hope I've purged this because I feel like again I'm gonna walk away and be like nope that's all I have more to

[01:35:26] interview just for time's sake I took out what I thought were some of the more interesting things you can certainly if you want go look these up for yourself and read them in their entirety so this first one is as I mentioned from the Hollywood reporter with showrunners Michael Foley and Justin Lowe one of the questions was when the viral video makes Joe the most visible man in New York it appears as though that will be his downfall but he still manages to turn that around was that

[01:35:56] decision intentional to play into the suspense of whether Joe is actually going to get caught Michael Foley says the thing we were most excited about was that his weapon and tool over four seasons that being social media is used against him that excited us to no end we also like that we got to sort of hold the mirror up to the reality that people maybe not as bad as Joe well some of them do survive such awful transgressions and Justin Lowe added one of the fun parts about

[01:36:33] ones in support of him ones that were obviously critical but also ones that are just funny we were actually trying to time them to what was happening in the picture right on screen to tell the story in a realistic way not everyone would be against him that was one of the most fun things we did this season so I liked that yeah we

[01:37:03] did the writers write these did they because I thought oh how fun would it have been to get submissions from actual fans of the show to contribute in a small way to the show but it was fun that they did come up with those I thought they did an amazing job one of their questions once Bronte got back on track and decided to take Joe down why did she go about it alone and almost get herself killed in the process rather than ask for help Michael Foley says because we knew that if she asked for help and the authorities closed in

[01:37:32] she'd never get the answers she was after she really needed the truth about Beck she needed to take Beck's voice back by having Joe redact the dark face of love once Joe had lawyered up and was in a jail sale these are answers she wasn't going to get so I thought that was fair I

[01:38:10] math I don't think we would have gotten closure but at least a path forward for the survivors and for Joe to be fully exposed if he had that easy path of being killed so I think that was the best way forward another question they said so after five wild seasons from your perspective as show runners why is Joe the way he is

[01:38:41] Lowe says we've shown in several seasons Joe's traumatic childhood that's part of it but it's not all of it there is something in Joe that is broken and the reason that we are drawn to Joe is because he masks that brokenness in this desire for love he says that love is the reason he can do these terrible things that he does and justifies it but I think it's the the the

[01:39:16] closest we came though was in episode eight when Louise does diagnose him to a degree and basically helps him realize that because of his childhood trauma there was a protector that was created that was cut off from him it was like the beginning of the split identity and that protector became the killer and then the lines blurred and killing became an inherent part of love for him um one of the questions can you also talk about the message

[01:39:42] behind bronte deciding to shoot joe in the genital area lo says that was obviously to take away joe's power his manhood and what makes him a romantic icon a sexual icon it was important to us and definitely important to pen to take as much as we could from joe at the very end of the series i mean that makes sense pen badgley hates joe yes he hates that character um another question the end was

[01:40:09] definitely satisfying seeing the way joe uh finally caught or getting caught but did you ever ponder alternate endings such as one where joe gets away with everything foley says for sure we knew what we were doing in terms of joe getting his comeuppance joe facing the loved ones of victims joe shirking accountability when the time came all the general ideas were all in agreement on but in terms of

[01:40:33] capture death captured by the authorities captured by a loved one of a victim there were some really crazy ideas we were definitely all not on the same page and in the end we just thought that death was too easy that that wasn't punishing enough we liked the idea of a final image of joe in a cage of sorts but most of all it was about taking away his power taking away his ability to know the touch of a lover

[01:40:57] etc low adds to to add to the endings that mike was talking about we came up with one where it's an ambiguous ending soprano style where bronte is pointing a gun at him and you don't know if she's going to pull the trigger or not and then it's a cut to black we came up with that one that mike was alluding to with a more gothic ending where someone puts him in a cage buried deep underground so we went through many many iterations but i think we're really happy with where it ended up

[01:41:27] i'm so glad they were not ambiguous yeah no that would have been awful so um and then just a little piece from um again i just carved this very short there's a a more full um interview with pen badgley that the whole hollywood reporter did but there's one piece that i took from it they asked pen badgley do you feel satisfied with joe's punishment in the end

[01:41:53] mike and justin had also mentioned that there was an idea thrown around at one point of locking joe in a cage and burying him underground um pen badgley says let's make this man real for a second and make all of his victims real there's no end that's satisfying it's a tragedy to imply that anyone could be satisfied by his end is to say that we want retribution and vengeance and that's not the same thing as justice nothing is satisfying when people are being killed and abused and manipulated because

[01:42:22] of their trauma the show's not meant to be real it's never been a clinical portrait of a man like this but even then it's still about real things in the end i don't think anyone could be 100 satisfied no matter what happened with a character in a show like this but if you think about it it wouldn't be right to be satisfied to me the most satisfying thing would would be to see him tortured by all the women he's hurt before but that would satisfy bloodlust it's not satisfying our need for justice

[01:42:50] i think the only kind of satisfaction that comes with true justice in a case like this is just time i think we ended it 100 in the right way that it needed to be and then in time i think it will become more satisfying i've been sitting with the ending longer than anyone who's watching all of us who made it have been sitting with it for a year longer than anyone else and i would say a year later i feel really confident that it's a great finale because the missing piece is just time to whatever degree

[01:43:16] anybody really takes a step to heart and feels the reality of these characters especially as victims it takes time to heal otherwise yeah i think we did all the things we needed to do we checked all the boxes nice so coming from the man that played him wow so again there's lots of other things out there that i'm sure other people have already read way before i did um you know having having being allowed to

[01:43:45] actually see all the things um so feel free to go out there and read the rest of the articles or if there's more news that you um want to seek out but for the sake of time i've limited it to that so i think that's a pretty good place to wrap it um i think we need to now hear from our listeners and see what they thought do you want to take our first part of listener feedback yeah we've got one

[01:44:10] from katherine peters thanks katherine for writing in good to hear from you says uh i knew joe was finally going down when henry rejected him but it was still difficult to watch after following him for over six years ronte's aim was very satisfying i'm looking forward to a rewatch or binge one day me too me too thanks katherine for uh writing in um it was great to hear from you each week and

[01:44:38] sharing um you know hearing and sharing your thoughts we got a voice message from our good friend steve yay can't wait to see what he thought about the finale let's hear what he's got to say hello strange indeed here we are oh this is steve and here we are it's the last episode of you oh that recap was great because i uh yeah i was i kind of forgot but it's good it's good and that

[01:45:06] voiceover that started with bronte wow here we are how far of a time jump have we done oh he's got the bandage on his arm from where he had the key in it but it's not too big of a time jump oh she just shot him it's the very beginning of the episode she was having okay she was imagining it like he used to do was this episode going to be dueling voiceovers okay so joe has a guy who's been uh he's been working with for this whole time seen this guy before this uh he was going to do the

[01:45:33] boat accident and that got called off and now he's going to get them fake passports did that cop just take coffee without paying for it i guess he did okay so joe found a house they could squat in oh she just said something about ending up at the bottom of the lake i hope that doesn't happen standing up in the boat oh balance balance who bronte's voiceover here uh i know she's not falling for joe but man she's seeing the peak romance of what he can do oh now she's got the

[01:46:00] gun pointed right at his face oh that would have been dramatic if there had been a commercial right there like that fade to black when she puts the gun up and then it comes back okay so she wants him to go through the book and what mark out all the stuff that he wrote that did that beck didn't write this is gonna this is this stalling tactic is not is not gonna be good for you uh bronte i don't think and he still thinks he can talk his way or find his way out of this safely and of course the phone

[01:46:25] uh ringing saves him momentarily and now henry realizes that his dad is the monster oh rough and now we see the devolving of joe gosh wow this is great pin badge he's doing a great job right here oh and there's the shift now joe's attacked her oh oh and she can't get the phone to respond to her fingers oh where's the gun and they're back outside but 9-1-1 responded so we'll see oh he broke her

[01:46:54] ankle or hurt her ankle oh is he gonna be able to drown her phone is still in the yard though connected to 9-1-1 right and there are the sirens oh now he's killed a cop oh somebody crawled out of the lake where'd she shoot him did she just wound him or she kill him i guess he's alive the police are pulling him away so i don't see his blood she shot him in the dick oh and kate lives as well oh everything tied up in a nice little nice little bow and now here we are in the prison let's see what

[01:47:21] this ending is gonna be somebody sent joe a letter oh chilling maybe the problem isn't me it's you all right uh on to the next project that was great love it thank you steve that was fantastic

[01:47:46] wow i just i don't know i i don't think i've accepted yet that it's over i've been thoroughly entertained for five seasons now so it's so weird to know that this is it and that we're wrapping it up and that it's all over but i i agree with what what steve said pen badgley there was everyone was fantastic we've had such a great round of actors in each um season uh but wow pen badgley just really

[01:48:14] freaking knocked it out of the park gotta give absolutely give give the kudos to him for such an amazing performance he he played it so damn well yes so yeah it was weird but here we are wrapping it up it's over i have to move on damn it and i don't know how yeah um usually this we are plug in like feedback and stuff uh i mean this is the last for a little bit um however you can still reach out

[01:48:41] to us if you'd like to send us messages and feedback and stuff we'll still get them so if you have other thoughts there are not future episodes to read them and play them on but we're definitely on facebook and messenger and through email and stuff if you reach out to us we'll get back to you at some point after the automated messages come back to you but we'll get to you we'll get to figure out how to turn that off um if if folks have contacted us there's an automatic message that pops up there and

[01:49:10] it's it's not us we yeah it seems to respond before we have a chance to so anyway if you if you get that don't worry one of us will get to you yeah so feel free to reach out we always love hearing from you whether we're on air or not whatever this would be you know while we're covering something yeah so again our facebook page and all the links and stuff at podcastica.com and while you're there be sure to

[01:49:35] check out our other shows uh because we know paik you and daphne always have something cooking oh yeah i'm excited about this one this release this week uh so on friday right around the corner be here um we are releasing our episode on a newer movie came out this year that everybody's been talking about and so we were so excited to finally cover it talk about ourselves that is of course uh michael b jordan

[01:50:01] starring in sinners nice what a movie um that was easily one of my favorites of the year so far so definitely yeah if you want to check out run for your lives me and daphne covering sinners we had a great conversation a lot of fun with that one so excellent give that uh listen i'm also on another podcast you can hear this week um it's out now i got to uh sit down and record with jason

[01:50:31] lucy and as far as i believe the first time i've ever podcasted with karen the original karen was so cool to to get to do that so the four of us got together and talked all about the new danny boyle and alex garland 28 years later um oh that is fantastic that has to be so much fun oh i had a blast with that one so much good so yeah so that's over on the the cast of us

[01:51:00] feeds you can go listen to that as we talked about 28 years uh had a blast with that one as well so go check that out i can't imagine anything but a good time with all of you sitting around talking about that movie which i haven't had a chance to see yet um hope too soon yeah but yeah i mean obviously very popular in in our circle right um in in the zed group uh that that um genre type

[01:51:25] anyway for that movie but then also wow had to be super exciting just to be in that setting yeah i had a good time awesome yeah lots of great stuff on podcast gotta go check out uh so check out all the shows that you want to over there again podcast.com you can find what you want to listen to uh and then make sure the ones that you love even us uh make sure you're subscribing following

[01:51:49] reviewing rating all of those things because it helps us so so much yeah thanks in advance all right that is our show thanks for listening until next time i'm rima and i'm bake and melissa sapola is strange indeed indeed