10: Season One Wrap-Up

[00:00:00] Hey there, people of Middle Earth, welcome to our podcast. I'm Ann Wynne. And I'm Penny. And this is the Cast of the Rings Episode 10. This episode we are bringing you a season wrap-up of The Lord of the Rings, The Rings of Power, Season 1.

[00:00:44] So exciting to be able to look back on it with a couple of weeks perspective. How about you, Penny? Oh, I feel the same way. And I've missed podcasting with you. So it's nice to be back on the long distance internet.

[00:00:57] Me too. Absolutely. And I was thinking about this as well, that I just so appreciate the magic of podcasting. I've really, really enjoyed podcasting with you. And I just love that with a couple of microphones and a little bit of software that somebody in New

[00:01:15] Zealand and somebody on the East Coast of the US can feel like we're in the same room talking about something and then send it out to the world with the help of our amazing editors. So I just think it's fantastic and wanted to shout out to Podcastica Network

[00:01:30] as well. For those of you who've just found us through this podcast and maybe yet to explore the rest of Podcastica, it all started back in 2010 when Jason and Karen just decided to put together a little podcast on a show called The Walking Dead.

[00:01:46] And it just grew and grew and grew from there. And to this day, I think we've done about covered about 45 to 50 shows like I think this is even Jason's lost count. There's so many. All of the shows, amazing shows that Strange indeed has

[00:02:00] covered or the main show. There's all of the Star Wars TV shows that have been covered. So many TV shows. And obviously House of Dragon has been a big one recently. And it's just incredible that this community has grown from

[00:02:16] just that one little conversation that Jason and Karen had all those years ago. So I'm really grateful for it and really excited to be part of it. And one of my favorite parts about podcasting and the Podcastica Network is

[00:02:28] the community and the listener feedback that we get. I love hearing from other fans of these wonderful TV shows that we love, what they think, especially when we get calls and emails and comments from people we've never

[00:02:45] heard from before at all. It's really exciting. So you guys out there, you know, don't be shy. If it's only one sentence, send it in. We love hearing from you. Exactly. And I also really enjoyed recently listening to the extended feedback episodes on Walking Deadcast.

[00:03:01] Now that they're coming to the end of the season, they're doing a separate show for the feedback. And I've really enjoyed hearing people who have written or called in for the first time and especially hearing about

[00:03:13] how they found the network. So one recently said that they found it because of Yellow Jackets. And that's how that was their gateway into Podcastica. Other people have been there from the start with the Walking Deadcast. And I really appreciate hearing how people have found us

[00:03:27] in their various ways. So keep the feedback coming because we absolutely love it. So for this episode, we are going to be discussing the whole of season one for the Lord of the Rings, the Rings of Power, right up to

[00:03:43] the finale. And we're sort of looking at this as a perspective of season as a whole. So if you haven't seen all of it, just be warned that the whole season will be spoiled for you. But hopefully by this stage

[00:03:55] you've had a chance to see them all. And each episode that we covered, we kind of looked at each single episode of the show. But now it's a really good chance for us to kind of look back on the season

[00:04:07] as a whole. And Penny, you said that you've gone back and looked again at some of the episodes since it finished? Yeah, I rewatched the Battle Episode, which I think is Episode Eight, when Mount Doom explodes. And I rewatched the one right

[00:04:25] after that where they all simply walk out of Mordor. Yeah. And then I ran out of time. I was going to watch the final one, but it was it was fun to revisit and see it again and have it just sort of refreshed in my mind.

[00:04:41] And there was stuff that I saw that I hadn't noticed before. So I was like, oh my God, there's still more to see in this show. There's like so much detail. Yeah, I love doing a rewatch with perspective.

[00:04:53] I haven't done that yet, but I am looking forward to watching the whole season with my kids because they haven't seen it yet. So to see it from the beginning, knowing what's coming, I think can be really helpful, especially when I think, you know,

[00:05:05] looking back some of those earlier episodes, we were kind of going, where are they going with this and what's going to happen? And that not that it takes away from it, but it does add that extra layer of kind of, you know, consideration.

[00:05:18] Whereas later, if you can go, you can just kind of let it wash over you and go, yeah, this is awesome. It's what I know where it's going. So I just enjoy it. It's going to be really fun to watch it with your kids.

[00:05:28] I'm a little jealous of that. That's going to be really cool. Yeah, it's going to be great. They do love the Lord of the Rings movies. So I think we're going to go back, watch this and then we will probably end up

[00:05:37] doing the rest of the movies too as we as we do our rewatching podcast on those ones as well. So lots and lots of material to get through through the long wait that we have to endure over the next year and a half to two years potentially.

[00:05:52] Exactly. Yeah. It's a long time. It is. So looking back now, Penny, what are your overall thoughts of the season one? Um, I think it was mostly a success that visually it's hard to even compare it to any other shows.

[00:06:11] The scope and the sweeping nature of the visuals and the beauty and the detail work was really powerful. Some of the some of the pacing and some of the dialogue issues that other people have pointed out and think are like the end of the world.

[00:06:32] I think are sort of growing pains that you get when you have to do such tremendous worldbuilding. And I have a feeling that season two is going to run much more smoothly now that they've done all the work of establishing these different communities and civilizations and locations.

[00:06:50] Yeah, I absolutely agree. In fact, my notes are almost identical to what you've just said. I think we're on the same page. But that's wonderful. I'm the same and look, you know, the one of the ways that I can kind of judge it,

[00:07:03] I guess, is that every week I couldn't wait to see the next episode. So that's always a good sign, even if there are little bits and pieces that you may be questioned or don't enjoy as much. I think knowing that you're looking forward to it, it's appointment TV.

[00:07:15] And of course, we were lucky enough to get it a couple of days early. And so when I got the chance to sit down and watch it each week, I was super excited. So that's always a good sign.

[00:07:24] Yeah, I think when we didn't get the finale, we were both so excited. I sat down two days early to watch it all excited and I was like, and then I clicked on the link, there was nothing there.

[00:07:36] And I went, of course they wouldn't see us that early. That would be stupid. Yeah. But I was like, we're trustworthy, I swear. I really wanted it. Yeah. But it was there was something cool about waiting to everyone gets it.

[00:07:49] It's a little bit like with the walking dead, they're not letting AMC plus viewers get to watch that early either. Everyone gets to see it at the same time. And I like that it's cool. Yeah. For the finale, it's really important. Yeah.

[00:08:02] But I think overall, especially from the very beginning, when I was anticipating the series, one of the things that lived up to my expectations was simply just seeing Middle Earth on screen again. That was the biggest thing for me was I absolutely adored

[00:08:17] the Lord of the Rings trilogy. And to see it on screen again 20 years later was really, really special. I loved the visuals as well. I just couldn't fault the design, the costumes, the visual effects, the casting, like the way everything and everyone looked with just one or two

[00:08:34] little exceptions I'll probably go into later. But in general, the music, the sound design, everything was amazing. And I love that they shot a lot of it on location with so many recognizable parts of New Zealand. And that's exciting. I agree with you, the pacing and the writing.

[00:08:50] Like sometimes it was a little bit clunky, but I do feel like it's sort of teething issues, like you say. And I think a lot of that is to do with the inexperienced showrunners. They're brand new to this kind of thing.

[00:09:01] And I do think that they would have learned a huge amount. I hope that they'll learn a huge amount from the first season and maybe some of the feedback and just the experience of doing it

[00:09:10] so that by the time they get to the second season, that's a little bit smoother. I was sort of it was such a feast for the senses overall that I was able to get past some of the liberties that they took with the law,

[00:09:23] which again, I'll go into a little bit later. For the overall story, you know, I just think it was spectacular. So I was overall really pleased with the whole thing. So we both saw separately that the one ring dot net

[00:09:40] had released their report card for the first season of The Rings of Power. And you can go on the one ring dot net and find this people out there. But I'll just read through it. Visuals, a acting a pacing, C minus writing C, fidelity, C minus,

[00:10:00] SFX and VFX, a music, a plus mixing, a GFX and titles, B minus marketing, B minus overall production, B minus. Yeah. What do you think about that? I kind of think it's a little harsh to you. Yeah, I think it's a little harsh. I also don't completely understand

[00:10:23] like how they came up with these specific categories. I find mixing to be a funny category next to some of the others, but whatever. I mean, I agree on the visuals and SFX and VFX. Those are A's and the music is fantastic, A plus.

[00:10:41] But I think they're a little harsh on the writing and the graphics and titles. Like what was their problem there? Yeah, I thought the graphics were amazing and the opening titles were standing out beautiful.

[00:10:55] Yeah, yeah. And the and the maps, I don't know which category the maps go into, but those maps were gorgeous, especially that leather looking one. It was so amazing. Like I would I would have given graphics and titles and A. Yeah, I gave it an A as well.

[00:11:15] Yeah, I went A for graphics and titles and A plus for the visuals. As I said, I can't I couldn't really fault that at all. Yeah. And I think I mean, I guess probably some of my lower ratings would have gone to the writing,

[00:11:31] the pacing and the fidelity. And I can go into that a little bit more, I think with the pacing. I felt in particular that the last episode was rushed. I felt like they spent a lot of time talky, talky, walkie, walkie out of Mordor.

[00:11:50] Episode seven was kind of I thought one of the weaker episodes, although there were moments in there that I did love in terms of the dialogue between Galadriel and Theo and just some of that softening of Galadriel's character there and some other moments in that episode as well.

[00:12:05] But in general, I thought it was one of the weaker ones. And I thought they could have spent a little bit less time on there, maybe a tiny little bit less time on Half-Watts, although I did enjoy them.

[00:12:15] But I just felt that the things that I had been looking forward to so much, which was Sauron or Halbrand getting to the elves and doing his trickery and the starting of the rings. I had expected that I had wanted to relish that for longer.

[00:12:33] It was so delicious when it came, but it was so quick. He walks into the forge. Hey, if you thought of doing this, think of it as a gift. Oh, my God, like I knew that was coming from the start. You know, I was 100 percent.

[00:12:44] Well, I waived sometimes there was a couple of times when I was maybe 80 percent Sauron. But most of the time, I was pretty sure it was Halbrand and I wanted to see him get there. And when he did, it was wonderful, but it felt too quick.

[00:12:56] I just thought, yeah, it was like 10 minutes. Yeah. And like it was satisfying, but I would have been satisfied enough with just him walking in at the very end of the episode. Like I think that would have been enough of a teaser for next season to go.

[00:13:10] Yeah. Yeah. But I guess, you know, the viewers and aunt is familiar with the law. They did need to have it more obvious and a more kind of distinct conclusion. So I see what they did with it. But overall, I think just that pacing, there were some things

[00:13:24] that could have been done quicker and some things that I wanted to take a bit more time with. And, you know, they've got five seasons. They've got time to stretch out and get much more into that, I think. Yeah. It's it's it's tricky.

[00:13:39] What about any of those other ratings? Yeah. I mean, the fidelity rating doesn't matter that much to me since I don't know all the lore. So it's it's mostly fresh to me. And it's close enough to what I remember from reading Lord of the Rings, that it's fine.

[00:13:56] The pacing was a little herky jerky. So maybe I would have given the pacing a C or C plus writing a B fidelity. I'm not grading on fidelity. Marketing, I don't even know why they're grading on marketing. I think that's kind of ridiculous.

[00:14:13] But I would give a grading on representation because I love that this production included people of color and people of color like throughout the different races of Middle Earth. Although orcs are all kind of gray, so I guess they're just all people of color

[00:14:30] or none people of color. I don't know what we think about orcs. They just kind of scabby. Yeah, they're just gray and gross. I really thought they did a beautiful job of casting people of color

[00:14:44] in a way that didn't feel like they were like, look, we have people. You know, it was just like that's their character. They're not like the elves who are from a different part of Middle Earth. They're just some of the elves have darker skin.

[00:14:57] Some of the dwarves have darker skin. It's fine. I really enjoyed that. And you know how I feel about the representation of women throughout. It's just that it's so weird that there's like only one female elf that talks or has a name or has even shows her face.

[00:15:16] All the other female elves are wearing like veils and stuff. It really bothers me. Yeah, there are other female dwarves that were like in the background, but none of them have names or anything. And the Harfuts have are the only like civilization where it seemed

[00:15:33] like the women were fully members of the civilization there. Even the Numenoreans, it seemed like a really big deal that Aearean got to be an apprentice and, you know, Muriel's the queen regent. But it's always different for nobility.

[00:15:48] There weren't any other women in any other like apparent positions of power. And, you know, there weren't women advisors. I didn't see women guards or women in any of the soldiers were women or sailors. So I think they could do better there. So representation B.

[00:16:07] Yeah. Again, something that maybe they can work on. And I think some of that could be, and this is not me making excuses for them. But I think some of the stuff around the the the women elves for this point in the story, it's really gladrile.

[00:16:22] That's the pivotal one to the plot. And we're going to be seeing hopefully later on some more, at least one more female alpha who is going to be key to the story. So let's see what happens with that. I think, yeah, a fairly good start at least.

[00:16:41] And we've talked before about, you know, the people who didn't like the representation. Well, they can they can just go and take a jump into the fiery pit of Mount Doome because we're not here for that. Exactly. Yeah.

[00:16:55] I think the visual tone, particularly, I think they got this just right. So there's some there's two parts to this. There's how amazing it just looked, like how visually it just was, you know, like I said, a feast for the senses. It's beautiful to look at.

[00:17:08] I've heard a lot of people say it's the most beautiful TV show they've ever seen. But the other part to that is the visual tone and how it fits in with what we already know of Middle Earth or what we've seen before of Middle Earth.

[00:17:20] I think this is probably really difficult to get right. And I think they have got it right. So, you know, most people are very familiar visually with the world of Peter Jackson's Lord of the Rings trilogy. That's how a lot of people see Middle Earth.

[00:17:37] And a lot of the visuals from that were based on the drawings from Alan Lee and John Howe, who were the two who had illustrated the most recent publications of the Lord of the Rings books. So they were hired onto Peter Jackson's film as a concept artist.

[00:17:54] And so a lot of the visuals that you see, if you go back to the more recent over the last sort of, you know, 30, 40 years of the publication of the books, a lot of the big color plates that you see

[00:18:06] in those large format books were artworks paintings by Alan Lee and John Howe. So it already matched what a lot of people had in their minds from seeing the books and from the visual representation of that translated to the Peter Jackson movies.

[00:18:21] And then now they had to with this, I think make it look like it was the same world, but they sort of managed to make the world look younger. So we're with 3000, 4000 years prehistory of Middle Earth

[00:18:35] from the world that we're used to with, you know, Frodo and Sam and all of them. So I think they did that really well. They made the colors look brighter and kind of more saturated, you know, with most obvious, I think with the elves.

[00:18:48] So in the Peter Jackson films, it was all very autumnal, you know, sort of muted colors, darker greens, oranges and dark kind of yellows to sort of show that the elves were waning and they were in their kind of autumn of the years in Middle Earth.

[00:19:03] And I think here we see it a lot more greener and fresher and overall the whole look was sort of but younger and fresher and a bit more saturated. It was less grimy except for where it was needed.

[00:19:15] You know, there was obviously some scenes and some peoples that needed to look a bit more grimy, but I feel like they did that really well. And that they kind of had the license to do what they liked with Numenor,

[00:19:26] you know, because it's the first time we've seen that on screen. It does fit with descriptions from the book while also looking a little bit like the architecture which eventually became, you know, familiar to us in Rohan and Gondor.

[00:19:41] So the armor and the costumes were really good to kind of show, oh, well this is obviously how this evolved into what we see later in Gondor, which was really great. I felt like the half-foot's looked like ancestors of the Hobbits. I think they got the personalities right.

[00:19:56] They kind of matched that comical nature but also the heart and the earnestness that the Hobbits have later while still making them seem a bit more wild and a little bit more nomadic and all the things that are slightly different from those settled Hobbits that we saw later.

[00:20:11] So that tone of the sort of styling of it, I think was spot on. I don't think they could have done that any better. I have to agree with you. It's very natural feeling as a relator, as it relates to the Peter Jackson films.

[00:20:28] As I've said before, I only saw the first of the Hobbit films, so I can't comment really on how the aesthetics of those films match up. But for me this looked like an extension of the world. I'd been imagining since I was nine years old. That's great.

[00:20:45] And that's the key, isn't it, for a lot of people that that's what makes it amazing to see on screen is that we've imagined it and then we get to see it again, which is really, really great.

[00:20:54] It's magical when the thing in your head shows up in front of you like that. Not a lot of adaptations of books do that. There's so many times when you go to see a film or a TV show of a book that you've loved and you're like,

[00:21:10] oh, what were they thinking? But in this case it all feels like they get the essence of it. The details may be different, but the vibe and the heart of what Middle Earth looks like and feels like in my head is on screen. That's great. Yeah, I agree.

[00:21:30] And what about have you got any... I've got some more good things to say, especially about characters and things like that. But I have got a couple of nitpicks, so I thought maybe we could get them out of the way.

[00:21:42] Have you got anything that you wanted to pick the nits on? I think I'm still upset that Poppy didn't go with Nori and The Stranger at the end of the season. I'm hoping that's so that something happens and then Poppy goes after them.

[00:22:01] It's the only hope I have about that because I don't understand why she's not with them. It really upset me and it still upsets me. And the thing about all the elf women with veils and not talking, those are the big ones for me.

[00:22:16] I wonder with Poppy, and I agree, knowing what we know of their two characters it would make total sense that she would go. I wonder how much was that they didn't want to make it exactly the same as Lord of the Rings.

[00:22:29] Like it's so Sam and Frodo isn't it? And I wonder whether they intentionally wanted to make it different at least at the start. She's got more people with her, so she's got the other two along with The Stranger.

[00:22:43] I just wonder whether they're going to bring that in later or not. Yeah, I definitely see what you mean. It didn't seem to fit completely with what we know of their characters, but maybe there's again, we might have the perspective later of being able to go,

[00:22:57] oh okay, that's why they did it. Yeah, it just, it sits uncomfortably with me. But most of the other relationships felt really real and some especially felt like impressively lived in. Elendil and Isildur, they love and annoy each other

[00:23:21] and at the same time, you know what I mean? They're constantly trying to connect and not quite connecting and it feels like that's been going on for 10 or 15 or 20 years with them. Yeah, I love that. When you only have, if you added up the number of minutes

[00:23:42] that they're on screen together, it's probably pretty minimal, but the fact that they did make it seem realistic, that they had, you're coming in the middle of a conversation that's maybe 10 years long. So it's nice that they make it seem realistic from that viewpoint.

[00:23:57] And it is hard when you're world building for the whole series of 40 or 50 episodes or whatever it is, you've got to do that quickly, but you also can't gloss over things. So I think that was well done too, I agree. But not every relationship rang true.

[00:24:19] Farazan and his son seemed like they had only just met. Like there was a quality about their relationship and when Farazan was giving his son, you know, his fatherly wisdom that felt like it was something new and not something lived in and habitual to me.

[00:24:37] Yeah, even to the point where he says, he's telling him something and then he says, my son and you kind of go, oh, okay, they're telling us he's his son. It didn't seem as obvious from the beginning with the two of them.

[00:24:52] Yeah, I don't know where they're going. I just, yeah, no idea where they're going with him. No idea where they're going with Earean. So that's, yeah, that's wait and see, I think on those guys. Yeah.

[00:25:06] I guess my main nitpick is a little bit to do with the law and I'm not going to go to the extreme of some people who you know, just totally boycotted the show because it was an abomination of Tolkien's writing.

[00:25:20] It's just a couple of little things that I don't think were that necessary, but I'll talk through those now. So, I mean, some of the things you have to change to make sense in this medium. And there's this thing called the Tom Shippey test.

[00:25:34] I don't know if you've heard of it, but Tom Shippey was one of the like preeminent Tolkien scholars and apparently he was actually consulting on the show early on as well. And he was also an expert of English medieval literature.

[00:25:50] He is also quite an expert on sci-fi and fantasy, like he's just, he knows his stuff this guy. But the Tom Shippey test is basically when you adapt something to the screen from writing there's two main questions that you have to ask yourself.

[00:26:05] The first one is are the themes and the main ideas of the story represented in Ring True? And then the second one is are any changes that are made from that necessary for the actual medium that you're using? And I do feel that overall,

[00:26:20] that it does pass the Shippey test, this show. But I just, I think that they've kept the main themes, they've kept the main ideas and they've made the changes where needed. You know, sometimes you have to, especially this condensing of the timeline, like we're doing five seasons,

[00:26:34] you have to have some through characters that aren't just elves. You know, the elves are really beautiful to look at. They're pretty interesting, but they're, you know, we all know that they're pretty haughty and think highly of themselves.

[00:26:45] And if it was only elves that we got to see for the whole five seasons, it might be a little bit annoying. Yeah, just like humans come through and they live and they die and they live and they die.

[00:26:55] I mean, it would be really hard to ever give a crap about any of them. Exactly. Yeah. And you're like this condensing of the timeline to include Isildur and Elendil, 1500 years too early for the actual story. You know, the reason is that the essential story elements

[00:27:15] are the same and with Isildur and Elendil, I don't have a problem that they've condensed it. I think it serves the purpose of the story that we are engaged with these characters and that we see their through story across the five seasons.

[00:27:28] And it wouldn't work for me if they had influence over things that were too early in the story for them to be part of, such as the forging of the rings. There's nothing to do with that in this story. They're 1500 years later, but they didn't.

[00:27:43] They didn't have any effects on things that weren't true to the story, so I'm totally fine with that. The one or two things that sort of didn't work for me was the methril tree and the fact that it's got

[00:27:59] this cell merrill in it and then it kind of went down into the earth and there's a bow-rog and stuff. That was just so far off the truth of this real story of the cell merrill that it did irk me. I was sorely vexed by that.

[00:28:12] I know that they kind of introduced it, that was a legend. They spent quite a lot of time talking about how this was just one idea or a myth of a legend, but I would have liked to have been proven

[00:28:23] that it was just a legend somehow, that that wasn't real. They sort of seem to have set that up as part of the in-story lore for this show. I know why they did it. They wanted to make it be really clear

[00:28:36] that the methril was the thing that was going to help save the elves, but I didn't like how over-dramatic the concept of the elves fading was, especially, and I liked the line and I liked the delivery, but when Durin said about his friend drowning

[00:28:50] and not being able to throw them a lifeline, it's over the top. Elves don't die. They actually do not die. Again, for dramatic purposes, for moving the story along, for increasing the kind of jeopardy of the situation, I know why they did it.

[00:29:05] I just don't think they had to do it as extremely. So I wanted to give you a little bit of background again about elves. We've gone into this a little bit before in previous episodes, but there's some really good information about this

[00:29:19] on Tolkien Gateway, which is a great website that you can go to for a whole bunch of background stuff. So basically, elves and men are both described as existing in two parts. So they have a spirit or a soul, which is called a phaya,

[00:29:33] and that comes from the secret fire of a Luvita. You remember the great creator God. And they also have a body or a roa, which is made out of the material of Arda. So it's exactly sort of our same concept that we have as humans.

[00:29:47] You have a soul and a body. We're pretty familiar with that kind of concept. But how it works in reality is different for each race. So the elves' fate is to live as long as Arda or the world exists.

[00:29:58] They're bound to the world and they can't leave it. They don't die of disease. They don't die of old age. So their bodies are kind of more adapted to having the presence of their spirits in them than men are. They're much more in control of their bodies.

[00:30:12] Their bodies are more durable. They can heal from wounds that would normally be fatal to immortal men. But they can be slain and they can lose the world to live, for example. If they've got extreme grief.

[00:30:25] But when an elf dies, their fayer or their spirit leaves the body, which then dies and is reabsorbed into Arda. That sounds familiar to us I guess. But the fayer is then called to the halls of Mandos. We've talked about that before and it's judged there.

[00:30:38] And they have to wait there for a bit. And then they might be reincarnated. The fayer, their spirit, might be reincarnated into a new body that's identical to their previous roa or body. And then for the men, it's different.

[00:30:50] So a human fayer or spirit is just a visitor to Arda, to the world. And when their body dies, the spirit leaves the world completely. No one knows where their spirit goes. And this sort of severance of their spirit and their body happens

[00:31:04] after quite a short time in relation to the elves. And so men aren't bound to the fate of the world as the elves are. They're sort of released from the world. And we've talked about before it's this kind of mortality

[00:31:17] as known as the gift of men or the doom of men. And so with this whole waning of the elves thing, this fading of the elves, it does appear in the show like they're saying that they're just all going to die.

[00:31:29] They're literally next spring going to drop down dead. That doesn't happen. You know, Morgoth corrupted the earth with his evil. That was also known as the maoring of Arda. And that caused the waning of the elves. So the elves who chose to continue living in Middle Earth,

[00:31:45] they suffered this kind of weakening of their bodies over really long periods of time. So we're talking thousands of years. It caused their spirit to almost consume their body, so they kind of in the end become more like wraiths if they stay for too long.

[00:31:58] And this is what kind of led to the men becoming dominant in Middle Earth. And the elves could only avoid this by leaving Middle Earth and sailing to the undying lands to the west because their bodies didn't wane or fade there.

[00:32:15] So at any time these elves can go to the west. So they kind of didn't cover that. They made it seem like it was this big special thing that Gil-Galad was granting Galadriel this amazing benefit of being sent to the west.

[00:32:30] Any of them can go at any time. Even the ones that had chosen to stay there or the ones that had never been to into the west, they're just choosing not to. I think we talked before about how they love being the lords

[00:32:41] in Middle Earth and being superior to everybody else rather than being the lesser beings in Valinor. So that's a bit of background. It just made me feel like that the whole concept of over-emphasizing that the elves are going to be destroyed was a bit unnecessary.

[00:32:56] I know they did it to make it more dramatic and exciting to watch, but I just don't think it was as necessary to go as far as they did. I'd love to hear from someone who didn't know the background of that stuff and just to know whether it's...

[00:33:09] Would it have made a difference if they had just talked about them, their strength fading? I don't know. What do you think about that, Penny? So I only have known the background really since that you've told me. But just based on that and based on my vague memories

[00:33:27] of reading The Appendices when I was a kid, it struck me weird, the elf story, and I was expecting for it to be revealed to be not true. Because I was like, that doesn't seem right. I don't think elves... Can't they just leave Middle Earth?

[00:33:46] And why are they so determined to stay in Middle Earth? They didn't really sell me on their need to stay in Middle Earth because he did... I think at one point Gil Galad did say, and we'll be forced to leave Middle Earth.

[00:33:58] And I was like, all right, leave. It wasn't your country to begin with. You're an occupying army and you're kind of jerks about it. But I also understand why they did it, but I think it was unnecessary.

[00:34:14] They very much could have just had a story like the elves... The Earth has been corrupted by Morgoth and the elves draw our power from it and so we're less powerful and so we want to create these rings to get us back to our old levels of power.

[00:34:28] That would have made sense to me and it would have been a lust for power story that Tolkien likes, right? He likes to talk about that. And more subtle than we need to save our race from death. I think maybe it was like...

[00:34:48] They thought it would be too hard for people to understand since it's a show that is geared for families and not just adults. I don't know. Yeah, it could be. It simplifies, it doesn't it? It's almost like an exaggeration of it.

[00:35:02] Again, the theme is there, the correct theme is there. All the ideas come from the lore. It's actually apart from the SimuHill tree. But all of the rest of it does match. Except the mythril glowing and having magical properties.

[00:35:19] Because mythril exists in the Lord of the Rings movies. Frodo has that mythril shirt of armor and it's just lightweight, strong metal. There's no magic glowing. There's nothing mystical about it. And they did use mythril in the making of the three rings particularly in Galadriel's one.

[00:35:46] But it's not because it can save their lives. They've kind of, yeah, that's a bit of license I think. It makes a really good visual effect. You remember that moment when Duran throws the piece of mythril across the table and it heals the leaf? Yeah, that was OTT.

[00:36:04] That was cool. But it looked good. It looked really cool. The only other little nitpick I have is just just a little bit some of the dialogue. So I thought that a lot of the dialogue was really great. I loved all of the dialogue with Arondia and Bronwyn.

[00:36:21] I loved the dialogue with Galadriel and Theo. I thought that they blended that perfectly to be true to each of their characters and how they would each speak. I thought that some of the Numenorean stuff was a little stilted.

[00:36:39] Just a couple of the scenes with Miriel and Elendil. I thought their chemistry is great and their acting was fine. It didn't seem to sort of match up with the level of quality that we had with the elves and particularly with the dwarves as well.

[00:36:54] All the dialogue with the dwarves I thought was outstanding. Every second of the dwarves on screen was perfection. Yeah, yeah. And when we had an episode where they weren't on screen it was a little bit disappointing. I missed them. Yeah, it was like, hey, what's D's up to?

[00:37:11] She's going to make some trouble. Look, that merges quite well into my next point which is our favorite characters. Mine was definitely anything to do with D'sa, Duran and Arond or any combo of those three. They're wonderful together. I mean, who couldn't love them?

[00:37:31] D'sa and Duran's marriage is like, that's the marriage I want if I ever get married. The way they love and support and challenge each other, it's beautiful. Yeah, it seems like such an equal relationship, doesn't it?

[00:37:45] They're sort of as fierce as each other but they can be tender. They are hugely loyal to each other and they share this kind of ambition as well which we got to see in the later episodes when they're talking about rolling together.

[00:38:01] I think it was just beautiful to watch and really loved how they sort of introduced them in that comical way. That first episode that we see them, they were kind of funny and silly and there was that whole rock-breaking challenge with Arond and everything

[00:38:17] but they deepened the characters pretty quickly and very well. I thought lots of layers to it, lots of complexity and just amazing on screen. I've seen a couple of interviews of the different cast members and they often, of course, interview the actors who played Duran and D'sa together

[00:38:35] and sometimes the actor with Arond as well and they are just hilarious. She's got great chemistry on and off screen so I thought it was beautiful. I started following that actress' Instagram page and she was having just a blast at whatever was the last Fashion Week

[00:38:56] and wearing these absolutely amazing outfits and she had her hair in this amazing style where she had this gold down the part and I just fell more in love with her watching her out of dwarf costume. I was like, oh, she's amazing in real life too.

[00:39:11] Yeah, her style is beautiful isn't it? She's just got the most amazing fashion sense and just this confidence and glow about her that is just so inspirational. I absolutely love it. I loved that the friendship between Duran and Arond.

[00:39:27] You know, the way that they sort of verbally sparred with each other but you could tell that there was this deep love between them as well. I thought that was beautiful and I could watch the Duran and Arond show if they did a spin-off and just went off

[00:39:40] into the woods together. It would be just awesome. I was thinking I would love to see how they met and became friends to begin with because they are very different people and where it was Duran out for a hunt and he came across Arond

[00:39:57] reading one of his books in a tree. How did they meet? Was it a diplomatic mission? Exactly. It would be so good to know that. Because at this point in the story, there's supposed to be this already this quite good relationship between

[00:40:12] the Alves of Eregion and the Dwarves of Khazad-Dum. In fact, Eregion was founded and built so close to Khazad-Dum just because of that they wanted to have this trade and this relationship. So it would be really cool to see how they did meet

[00:40:26] but they portrayed it so beautifully on screen. I thought it was really, really well done. There's a lot of tenderness there and there's another relationship that felt very lived in. Even from the first moment, Duran's anger you could tell when he first saw Elrond again

[00:40:40] was a love-based anger. He was hurt, like really, really hurt by his friend and it felt like he had been for many years. There was a gravity to it. Yeah, it was summering. He was there for 20 years thinking about how his friend had let him down

[00:41:01] and it was beautifully portrayed. I did love that. I also loved, I adored Arondia. I just loved him. He was so beautiful to watch. It was great to see an elf much more grounded and part of the land and kind of grimy.

[00:41:20] We did get used to in the Lord of the Rings scene the Alves, even Legolas who was out and about fighting he never got a speck of dust on him. He was always so beautifully groomed. That's true. Most of the other elves we see are always like

[00:41:35] in these sparkly, long flowing gowns or in these peaceful forests or in their Art Deco homes. But yeah, Arondia is out in the world. He is. He's grimy. He's a fighter. His action scenes were some of my favorite moments in the whole show.

[00:41:55] The scene where they're in the tunnels and he's attacking the orcs with the chain and doing those big aerial kind of jumps over them. I could just watch that again and again and when he caught the arrow and then fired it back again, just amazing. Absolutely loved it.

[00:42:11] I thought he and Bronwyn were great together. I really liked their chemistry. It was so kind of yearning and forbidden and just beautifully hand-overed. Yeah, it was so sweet. He was so shy. I just, in the rewatch that I did today,

[00:42:30] I saw the scene where he basically proposes to her just before the battle. He's like, let's go and have a garden. When this is over it's going to be you and me. We'll get a house. It will be great. That's really beautiful.

[00:42:44] And he knows that everyone's going to hate them but I guess the danger that they're facing and the danger he already faced in Adar's prison was enough to push him past that and to be like, I just want to be with the person I love.

[00:43:00] Yeah, I am really fascinated to see where they go with that whole civilization because off they go to the Bay of Palagiar or wherever they've gone and we didn't really see anything else of them in that finale of what's going to happen to them.

[00:43:14] So I will be interested to see how they bring them back into the main kind of story of what happens next. That's going to be cool. I want to talk a moment about Isildur. We talked already a little bit about his relationship with Elendil.

[00:43:30] It was interesting how they portrayed Isildur. Just for those of us who know the story, we kind of go with the idea that most people from who are watching this show and listening to us probably have seen the Peter Jackson films.

[00:43:45] So we know that Isildur features in the prologue of those and we know where he ends up. I won't say anything more in case people haven't. I wonder with this building of Isildur's character because let's face it, he's a little bit annoying, right?

[00:44:02] He doesn't have that much consideration for other people. He acted really irrationally on the boat trying to get himself out of the navy, but he ended up getting his two friends kicked out as well. That really sort of inconsiderate grabbing of the apple taking two bites,

[00:44:21] giving his horse only one bite and then throwing it off the side of the boat was just... He just seems like... Spoiled. Yes, spoiled. Not wanting to listen to his dad until that very last scene when they're talking about the horse. I wonder whether they're setting him up

[00:44:38] to be like that or that we're going to see him grow because Isildur in the books, he does a lot of really great stuff before he does the thing at the end that isn't as great. He ends up doing some really, really good important stuff

[00:44:55] and so I really want to see them build hopefully in the next season him up to be more of a sympathetic and believable and heroic character because that is what he becomes. I'm just not quite sure why they're going already with this kind of petulant teenager thing

[00:45:09] but I'm hoping he's got a good arc that shows that. Now he is missing, right? He's missing presumed dead on the field of battle. He is stuck in Mordor. We know he's alive because he shows up later in the story but he's in Mordor. He's trapped somewhere.

[00:45:26] Is he someone's prisoner? I think he's going to have a lot of growth to go through getting himself out of there. Yeah. And I think we've got Barak obviously galloping off to go and find him. I did find, I've been reading recently

[00:45:43] The Unfinished Tales which is a collection of writings put together by Tolkien's son Christopher Tolkien where he collected a whole bunch of writings and journal entries and letters and all kinds of background scribblings and notes from Tolkien that lend more kind of weight

[00:46:02] and more background to the stories that we know. It's a really interesting book just kind of dipping in and out of different chapters but there is a thing in there about the Numenoreans and their horses. I thought I'd just read it out. Oh cool.

[00:46:14] This kind of shows you that it was really cool. It lends a little bit more weight to the scene where the Seldor and Elendil talking about the horses and how they bond with their riders. So it's pretty cool. It says, In Numenor all journeyed from place to place

[00:46:30] on horseback for in riding the Numenoreans both men and women took delight and all the people of the land loved horses treating them honorably and housing them nobly. They were trained to hear and answer calls from a great distance and it is said in Old Tales

[00:46:43] that where there was great love between men and women and their favorite steeds they could be summoned at need by thought alone. That's pretty cool right? So here's my question. Is Barak the ancestor of Shadowfax? Oh I don't know. I'm just trying to think.

[00:47:03] Right if he's like a magical horse and Shadowfax is a magical horse where did he come from? I don't know where Shadowfax came from. That's a good point. I have to look that up. It doesn't sort of say anything necessarily about them being magical

[00:47:18] in Numenor but just that the bond was so great and this kind of shows maybe that's why Barak ran off is that actually could a Seldor have called either intentionally or unintentionally his wounded line there. That whole time because Elendil was trying to calm Barak

[00:47:37] and Valendil, his Seldor's friend was like he's been like this like nobody can calm him. I think the whole time Barak was like no, Seldor is alive. I'm not getting on that boat and so he was fighting and fighting and fighting and then Elendil just let him go

[00:47:53] because I think Seldor is probably if he called for Barak that's one thing but he's probably unconscious. Even so Barak was like he's alive and I'm not leaving. Yeah. That's pretty cool isn't it? I love, I love that's one of the great things I love

[00:48:08] about dipping in and out of the books is to find these little background pieces and of course they don't have the license to the unfinished tales or the Silmarillion or anything else apart from Lord of the Rings and the Appendices but there are pieces of information in there

[00:48:22] that they can use to build on so they can't directly talk about any scenes or anything specific but that piece of information about them being bonded to their horse they can use that as part of the background of these Numenoreans

[00:48:34] so I do really like that and I enjoy it. That's really cool. What about other characters? Is there anybody else that stood out for you that you wanted to talk about? Yeah, I think Adar is a fascinating character. I mean obviously he's not a favorite

[00:48:50] in terms of like someone I like but the story of someone who was whether voluntarily or not made twisted and turned into an agent of Morgoth who seems to legitimately hate Sauron and oppose Sauron who has fulfilled this plan that everyone on Middle-Earth thought was Sauron's plan

[00:49:14] and that Sauron was the leader. It's been Adar because Sauron's been off doing his Hallbrand thing and so he's a strong, powerful leader and he has this whole freedom of my people cause that's actually pretty sympathetic. I don't think the way to get a land for your people

[00:49:33] is to explode a volcano and kill everyone but wanting a place where the orcs can live in peace is a noble ambition and he was willing to do all this violence to humans but I can kind of understand where he's coming from a little bit.

[00:49:53] I think he's really layered and I think I really want to see in season two some information about what may have transpired between him and Sauron in the past. Yeah, that'd be great to see because it's clear when you go back and look at it knowing for certain

[00:50:13] that Hallbrand is Sauron that's seen between them when he says, do you remember me? So there's a couple of different options he could be saying, no I don't because Sauron's Hallbrand has taken a form that Adar doesn't recognise or it could be that he does recognise

[00:50:32] that it's him but he just doesn't want to acknowledge it either in front of Galadriel or just in general that he doesn't want to acknowledge it. So it will be interesting to see if they touch on that because Sauron's now gone back to Mordor

[00:50:47] he's going to bang into Adar and the Orcs and obviously want to be the big boss again so it will be really cool to see. I can't wait for a scene between those two again. It's going to be great. When I was looking, Hallbrand says

[00:51:02] after the battle when he's injured in that ridiculous scene where he then gets on a horse in Gallup's he says I will not abandon these lands to burn and he says to Galadriel and neither will you and I really believed him about that.

[00:51:19] Like I don't think that he would have ever maybe not ever but that he would have used the key and unleashed Mount Doom like that because he was trying to supposedly heal Middle Earth and bring order and that was chaotic and destructive.

[00:51:40] I think he's going to oppose Adar but I think he might think he's still trying to be the good guy in season two. Yeah, again, I wonder how much they're condensing the timeline again with that because we've seen all this stuff about him

[00:51:54] wanting to help and to heal and I've heard lots of differing opinions on Sauron and all over the internet on different podcasts and things. Some people thought it was really obvious that Hallbrand was Sauron, some people thought it really was and had no clue.

[00:52:12] Other people thought he's definitely penitent and wants to heal Middle Earth and he's being sincere when he says to Galadriel your goodness can help me and help Middle Earth. Other people were like, no, he's just the biggest trick ever so he's pure evil.

[00:52:28] But I did have a little bit again to read about Sauron along those lines because I do feel like that they are perhaps condensing it to show us his kind of not necessarily repentant but his side that wants to help and to rehabilitate Middle Earth

[00:52:48] and then they're going to go further and further towards the darkness. So there's a section in the Unfinished Tales which says Sauron endeavored to keep distinct his two sides, enemy and tempter. When he came among the Noldor he adopted a specious, fair form a kind of simulated anticipation

[00:53:07] of the later Astari and a fair name, Artano Heismith or Alendiel meaning one who is devoted to the service of the Valar Aule. The note goes on to say that Galadriel was not deceived saying that this Alendiel was not in the train of Aule in Valinor

[00:53:23] but this is not decisive since Aule existed before the building of Arda and the probability is in fact that Sauron was one of the Aulean Maya corrupted before Arda began by Malkor. In a letter written in September 1954 my father said, so this is Christopher Tolkien writing

[00:53:41] my father Tolkien said at the beginning of the second age Sauron was still beautiful to look at or could still assume a beautiful visible shape and was not indeed wholly evil not unless all reformers who want to hurry up with reconstruction and reorganization are wholly evil

[00:53:56] even before pride and the lust to exert their will eat them up. The particular branch of the Hiaos concerned the Noldor or Lora Masters were always vulnerable on the side of science technology as we should call it they wanted to have the knowledge that Sauron genuinely had

[00:54:11] and those of Auregion refused the warnings of Gil-galad and Elrond the particular desire of the Auregion elves an allegory if you like of the love of machinery and technical devices is also symbolized by their special friendship with the dwarves of Moria.

[00:54:27] So there's a couple of things in there pretty much confirming that Sauron is not wholly evil that he did want to have this kind of reorganization and then also touches on the fact that Gil-galad and Elrond didn't trust him

[00:54:41] and it was basically just Calibre and Boa who kind of fell for his charms so I do like that I think they've got the the tone of him right where it's difficult to tell whether he's being tricksy or whether he really does believe that and I like that

[00:54:54] because maybe he doesn't even know this point. Yeah, I mean and a lot of actors who play villains always say nobody thinks they're the bad guy I don't know if the same thing is true for non-human like super beings like Sauron like the Astari but he

[00:55:16] he thinks he's gonna do good he thinks he has good intentions but he knows and recognizes evil in the past I like to believe that there's no such thing as a 100% evil human I spent a lot of time today wondering if I could apply that to

[00:55:36] you know the various races of Middle Earth but I would like to believe that 100% evil does not exist. So I think there's some good in it. Yeah and certainly Tolkien was of that perspective he was a Catholic and he believed that everybody was redeemable

[00:55:54] whether they chose that path of redemption but everybody had the capacity to repent and to go a different choose a different path. I like what you say about bad guys not knowing they're bad guys or believing that they're doing good I think it makes them more complex characters

[00:56:10] and more interesting. It's the old Thanos thing isn't it from the Marvel Universe where he felt that he was saving and helping the Earth by getting rid of 50% of the population that was his mission and he didn't think he was the bad guy

[00:56:22] so yeah it's a cool concept. I wanted to talk a little bit about Galadriel She's a character. Yeah they've chosen to I guess focus this first season on her in terms of being the main I guess the main character a lot of ways in terms of

[00:56:46] leaving this story along or that a lot of it's told from her perspective. Yeah I did really like having the chance to look back over the season as a whole with Galadriel I've seen a lot of criticisms of her character again I think overall they got it right

[00:57:01] It was nice to have the perspective of the whole season and especially the scenes with her in Theo to kind of humanise her a little bit more because there were times there where she was really annoying really so single minded and so intense with her

[00:57:22] thoughts and her actions Some people have said that they didn't think she would ever have been tempted by this offer of power from Sauron I disagree I think it's there in the writings I've got another little reading for you guys from the unfinished tales. She's much more

[00:57:40] context then most people if you've read The Lord of the Rings and you've seen the movies and you haven't read anything else it is a fairly shallow or one sided version of Galadriel that we get beautifully portrayed by Kate Blanchett

[00:57:58] the power and the majesty and the wisdom and the age is amazingly portrayed but that's Galadriel after having been there for thousands of years and we've had time in sort of seclusion but we're getting to see the younger Galadriel and also having already gone through

[00:58:16] this temptation so she's learned from this Exactly, yeah and we see the echo of that when she's tempted by the ring when Frodo has it that's one of the reasons I think it's so true to her character There's a section here that says

[00:58:31] it's got a good description so there's a history of Galadriel which is really interesting reading there's a wee section here to describe Galadriel She was strong of body, mind and will a match for both the law masters and the athletes of the Eldar

[00:58:46] in the days of their youth even among the Eldar she was accounted beautiful and her hair was held a marvel unmatched it was golden like the hair of her father and her foremother Indus but richer and more radiant for its gold was touched by some memory

[00:58:58] of the star like silver of her mother the light of the two trees Loralyn and Tilperian had been snared in her tresses many thought that the saying first gave to Feanor the thought of imprisoning and blending the light

[00:59:10] of the trees that later took shape in his hands as the Silmarils for Feanor beheld the hair of Galadriel with wonder and delight he begged three times for a dress but Galadriel would not give him even one hair these two Kinfolk the greatest of the Eldar of Valinor

[00:59:22] were unfriends forever Galadriel was born in the bliss of Valinor but it was not long in the reckoning of the blessed realm before that was dimmed and thereafter she had no peace within for in that testing time amid the strife of the Noldor

[00:59:37] she was drawn this way and that she was proud strong and self-willed as were all the descendants of Finway say Finafin and like her brother Finrod of all her kin the nearest to her heart she had dreams of far lands and dominions

[00:59:49] that might be her own to order as she would without tutelage so that tells me she did want to rule in Middle-Earth she did want some power and to rule over people and to have a place of her own I think that that

[01:00:04] that lends weight really well to the fact that she was tempted by Sauron's kind of offer and later by the ring I think her sort of longevity and her strength was really believable when she was so feisty

[01:00:16] with the Numenorians and so single-minded and when she first got there and she's like this is all we have to do and she doesn't have time to play around she's been on this mission this whole time and she really needs to kind of move things along

[01:00:28] I saw some criticism that she was ever charmed by Hal Brand at all because in the story they say that she wasn't she was suspicious of him from the start but again they condensed the storyline and they sort of managed to show

[01:00:40] that initial redemption his desire for redemption before he turned back to darkness and I think Gladria caught him at that time you know but again he says I never lied to you she just basically made assumptions of who he was and what he stood for

[01:00:55] the other little thing that I do love from that little reading there was it makes it even more significant later when you realise that she gives Gimli three of her the strands of her hair of how special she felt he was

[01:01:07] and that she actually would give that up when she had been asked by one of the most powerful elves previously and said no I thought that was really a really cool idea she's also I thought the casting was interesting in the story she's actually older than Calibrembour

[01:01:29] so I thought the age that they cast Calibrembour was interesting and the age that they cast her of course elves live for thousands and thousands of years or forever so a couple of hundred years here on there probably doesn't make very much difference

[01:01:41] but as humans we're used to seeing someone and assuming number of years or a certain generation older than the others Feanor was Galadriel's uncle but was actually Calibrembour's grandfather she's even older than Gilgallad he was her brother's grandson which makes her his...Gilgallad's great aunt

[01:02:02] she's shown as this feisty young thing and I think it works for the purposes of the story especially since he's the king she has to pay heed to that but I guess I wasn't so keen on Calibrembour being kind of like the bumbling uncle

[01:02:20] Yeah I was about to say he's like somebody's uncle He's sort of... yeah because he's ancient as well and he's wise and he's supposed to be kind and gentle but it doesn't have to make him a fool He didn't seem...

[01:02:38] he reminded me more of Bilbo than he did of any other elf within all of the Middle Earth stories He didn't seem particularly connected to the to the world around him the way elves always have that that coolness

[01:02:56] that like makes you think that they're part tree or something that they just are connected to them but he seems like a human Yeah that's one of the reasons why I thought it would have been nicer to have a longer extended period of him and Halbrand working together

[01:03:14] where it just seemed like he's this amazing smith He's the grandson of Feanor He's got all this skill and Halbrand just kind of comes in and goes oh we have all manner of different kind of you know what does he say something about

[01:03:38] metal as rare as hens teeth are I'm from Have you thought about mixing them together it just felt a little bit too... it was quick It was delicious to watch but it was a bit quick and contrived

[01:03:50] so it would have been nicer to see that take place over longer and I think it would have given more gravity to Calla Brambore and his already wisdom and knowledge that he had already but again it's kind of a little bit nitpicky

[01:04:05] I thought overall it was still great and it will be really interesting to see talking about Galadriel whether they continue to have her central to the story over the next few seasons because I don't know that they would have to for storytelling purposes it depends on what

[01:04:23] they cover with each season whether they're in a lindel or we're going to focus more on what's happening back in Uenoa or how much are we going to see of the dwarves how much are we going to see of the Harfoots

[01:04:38] it's going to be really interesting to see Yeah especially the Harfoots now that Nori and the stranger have left them behind it's like is there going to be any reason to go back to see them again until the end when you know they have a big party

[01:04:53] Yeah it's going to be really cold and we just have to let it all wash over us but we're in for the long haul we're talking four more seasons and if they take two years to do each one then you know it's going to be the year

[01:05:08] it's going to be 2030 before we see this finale out so let's be patient and lots of stuff to dig into in the meantime if you do want to get into stuff there's no rush if you're out there and you're going to do a

[01:05:23] rewatch of the show take your time Yeah exactly You can just watch one episode every couple of months and you'll probably be good And then you have plenty of time to listen to our podcast so that's good Totally yeah because some of those episodes ran pretty long

[01:05:41] so there you go Any other favourite characters or scenes anything that Auset stood out to you? I mean there's so many scenes that I loved as ridiculous as it was I really enjoyed the after the volcano orange cloud it was just really cool to see

[01:06:04] and I'm a sucker for good costumes and all of the costumes were beautiful but especially Gladrials gown in the last episode I was like why isn't Amazon already selling this? They have a fashion section on Amazon Prime like sell that dress but yeah it was so beautiful

[01:06:28] and the Numenorean armour so beautiful Gorgeous I loved how they was almost like a blend of the kind of gondor and Rohan you know the helmets had that long tail to it which we see later with the Rohans colour and texture of it was a bit more gondorian

[01:06:46] I thought that was beautiful as well There's a page that I follow on Facebook which is Lord of the Rings Costuming and Cosplay or something like that And it's amazing just seeing what people do and what they come up with and there was one I saw where

[01:07:04] a woman made Gladrials armour from the final episodes there and incredible detail and she formed this out of foam and all these different kinds of materials the time and skill that people put into those things but I would have thought it would be a pretty good line

[01:07:22] to have some official cosplay merchandise as well from Amazon Come on Amazon you're a giant but you're letting me down Awesome Anything else? I wish I were more educated about music because I feel like there's a lot to be said

[01:07:43] about the music on the show and I am just not qualified to do it but I have been very much enjoying the music and hearing from other people that it's also great for them

[01:07:58] One of the things that I love about music is that I didn't notice it much and that sounds weird but if you notice there being too much too little or it not sitting right then it's not a good thing

[01:08:07] if you don't notice it much and it just lends credence and power and weight to the story and each scene that you're doing then that's a great thing and I think Beme Aquari did an incredible job with the music in this

[01:08:19] There was an interview with him recently on theonering.net which is really cool to listen to as well so you can go and have a wee look at that yeah I had no problem with the music at all I think keeping some of this sort of tone

[01:08:34] and feel of how it shows original score from the Lord of the Rings but also being a little bit different again was really well done. I think he got that balance really really perfect Alright so we are going to take a short break

[01:08:51] and we're going to come back for some news and some listener feedback so stay with us Okay we're back and we have a couple of pieces of news and I did scour the internet to try and find any information

[01:09:13] on the filming we know that it started for season 2 but there isn't anything new since we last recorded obviously keeping pretty hush hush with all of that but we did have a couple of quite interesting articles here. The first one is from cbr.com and it says

[01:09:41] Most of the skeptical fans were upset that the series were reportedly playing fast and loose with some of Tolkien's law While those fans' complaints were justified on some fronts their initial skepticism hindered their ability to enjoy the Rings of Power at all. That's why some reviews

[01:09:56] of the Rings of Power went very good. The thing is recent numbers have shown that a lot of the negative press was put out by a small vocal group of narrow minded fans The reason that some fans didn't like the series was due to law based decisions

[01:10:08] Lord of the Rings fans take Tolkien's material very seriously so when the Rings of Power started making some changes to canon like the new Origin of Mithril, it didn't vibe with some fans including me. On the flip side of the criticism

[01:10:21] many fans really did like the Rings of Power Basically the series reviews matched the pre-release sentiments Those who wanted to like the Rings of Power liked it but those who were skeptical didn't like it because they never gave it a chance

[01:10:33] It's interesting to note however that there were a lot more fans who liked the series than disliked it. During the series run Parrot Analytics found that the audience demand was 34.5 times the demand of the average TV series in the United States Likewise Nielsen's ratings show an impressive

[01:10:48] 988 million minutes of viewing time in the US during the week of September 12-18 All of this information together makes it clear there were a few vocal viewers who really didn't like the series while the majority of viewers thought it was pretty good

[01:11:01] Another bit of proof is that a chart from IMDb reflecting user ratings for the series most of the reviews were either 1 or 10 stars with very little ratings in the middle Again that chart combined with negative comments seems to show

[01:11:15] that a lot of viewers gave the Rings of Power negative reviews based on its non-adherence to the Tolkien material, not on its own merit Hopefully viewers will be a little more open minded in season 2 That's really interesting That 34.5 times the average TV series is a staggering number

[01:11:36] It's mind blowing isn't it? Yeah, there's been... I have also read that Amazon has been pretty quiet about ratings or viewings in general I'm not even sure how they measure it But it's interesting that we get two different numbers there from different

[01:11:54] organisations who rate it or track the numbers But yeah, that whole the loud vocal minority is really key and that's what we saw obviously from the beginning as well that people who were review bombing on Rotten Tomatoes and everything it was just a bunch of really noisy people

[01:12:13] but clearly there are millions and millions and millions of people who did watch it and not get too annoyed by it That's good From Esquire.com This is just a piece of a much larger article J.R.R. Tolkien's source material is narratively thin

[01:12:30] consisting largely of battles and successions Rings of Power showrunners have grafted connected tissue onto this sparse scaffolding shading in the thoughts, feelings and choices that propel familiar characters to each predetermined plot point We know where these characters are going but if there's one thing Tolkienites understand

[01:12:51] it's that it's the journey that shapes and changes us not the destination Where Tolkien gave us only the destination Rings of Power back fills the journey Take Lord Elrond for example How did he become such a legendary statesman able to build consensus between mortal and immortal races

[01:13:10] Rings of Power imagines his years as a rookie diplomat building out a formative and often touching friendship with the Dwarven Prince during the fourth As strange new worlds accomplishes with Spock suddenly Elrond's canonical future makes more sense

[01:13:25] To be clear the Star Trek and Lord of the Rings fandoms are not without their own share of bad behavior and for some fans even simply enlarging the canon is still a bridge too far But Gandalf wasn't in Middle-Earth during the Second Age

[01:13:39] These personicity purists argue taking aim at the all too likely theory that Rings of Power's mysterious stranger is, in fact, the notorious wizard Gandalf Sure, Gandalf the Grey had yet to arrive in Middle-Earth during the Second Age setting encompassed by Rings of Power

[01:13:56] but during this timeline he was knocking around the continent by other names in other forms where can obsessed fans might see a limitation any good storyteller would see a tantalizing mystery Tolkien himself often amended and expanded his own work

[01:14:12] so why shouldn't Rings of Power take some creative liberties especially with the author's grey areas Isn't it more fun to think about what could be true rather than what must be true? I like that, I like the kind of open-mindedness of it

[01:14:27] and that concept of leaving yourself open to exploring mysteries It's a great article and for those of you who are Star Trek fans as well I highly recommend it, we'll put the link in the show notes because it really does go into depth about both the Star Trek

[01:14:42] kind of world and the Tolkien world so it's pretty cool I'm a fan of both so I really enjoyed it I haven't watched Strangereal Worlds yet but it's coming up in my list Neither have I, we're really behind there's Discovery and there's Picard and there's Strangereal Worlds

[01:14:59] and yeah I've heard that Strangereal Worlds is one of the better of the three so definitely keen to dive into that one Alright so we got some good listener feedback as well this week from people wanting to give us their thoughts on the season

[01:15:14] as a whole do you want to get started with our comment from Facebook? Sure, Jody Langridge wrote in to say I'm very much looking forward to hearing your recap of the season as I have enjoyed the podcast a lot

[01:15:27] Thank you! I have never read the books or watched any of the movies so I watched this series without any expectations There was so much going on, a lot of locations and names that are sometimes hard to follow Having the podcast every week was just a wonderful help

[01:15:41] with remembering how everyone fit into the storyline So thank you all for doing such a great job On one in Penny, your passion for this world is just a joy to listen to Well I could read this comment all day Thank you so much Jody!

[01:15:56] Overall I enjoyed the season very much and it was over too soon It was just beautiful to watch and I hope that continues for the next season after the filming location change Yes we're worried about that too It was great having all the red herrings throughout

[01:16:10] keeping us all guessing as to who was the bad guy I think my favorite character at this point is Duren and any scene he is in with any other character especially his scenes with Elrond I am not too emotionally invested in any of the others yet

[01:16:24] maybe after another season that might happen I would like to see a softer side of Galadriel she is always so stern and serious Relax gal, maybe get a massage Thanks again and looking forward to hearing other listener feedback on the season A little elf emotion

[01:16:40] Oh thanks so much Jody! That's brilliant I love to hear your message Thank you, I appreciate it We both agree about Duren and Elrond for sure Adorable Now we got a fantastic email from Jordan Jordan says, hi Ann-Win and Penny

[01:16:59] We really wanted to love this show as a family of Tolkien and Lord of the Rings fans However we couldn't focus on the main story as the show was so poorly done I don't feel like sugarcoating anything so these are my honest opinions summed up

[01:17:11] Please note that I am not too fast on the lore of the Tolkien universe this is more about the actual show than accurate lore What I enjoyed New Tolkien content is always a good thing

[01:17:21] One thing that pulled me through the show was the fact that it was tied to the Tolkien universe Finding out more about Mithra was pretty cool The stranger and his character development was interesting Adar was probably the best character, a really enjoyable villain

[01:17:35] and some of the scenery was spectacular What I didn't enjoy The writing was by far the worst aspect of the show The half-foot plotline was generally boring and when it was exciting it was always centered around the stranger The dialogue was stilted Poor Galadriel deserved more consistent characterization

[01:17:51] and the ability to not contradict herself every 10 seconds I felt the plotlines were really predictable I guessed about half of what eventually unfolded The pacing was inconsistent especially when it came to the half-foot We found it so hard to stay engaged with that plotline

[01:18:04] because very little actually happened Use of plot armor, especially Bromwyn and her elf friend Arondir She'd been impaled then had her wound cauterized and in the next scene she looked clean, perfectly healthy and able-bodied In the episode where the orcs attack the villagers

[01:18:18] the army of Numenor arrives right on time to save the villagers there was no communication between them The Sauron reveal went from 0 to 100 very quickly A few scattered hints in episodes 1 through 7 then in episode 8 you get hit on the head with all these major clues

[01:18:33] In the first few episodes I didn't want to believe it was Halbrand because I found it a bit ridiculous that he could be Sauron It could have been worse though The creation of Mount Doom was disappointing I felt the ancient broken sword had so much potential

[01:18:45] it could have done anything, being used by anyone to have it unlock a lake that channeled into a dormant volcano was pretty underwhelming The orcs built many channels so the water could flow into the volcano

[01:18:54] but what if they didn't? Would the water just fall into the valley and do nothing? For a show with a billion dollar budget the experience was rather mundane The bad writing was much more funny than the sad attempts at humor throughout the show

[01:19:05] There were many other instances of poor writing but the above is what I can remember off the top of my head We really wanted to enjoy Rings of Power as a family but it was very hard to watch at points

[01:19:14] and the most epic battle was staying the distance to watch each episode in one sitting Overall, I would give this show around 4 out of 10 as it had so much potential but they failed to make it a good project Don't let me deter you from watching Rings of Power

[01:19:25] if you haven't already as everyone will experience different levels of enjoyment Best regards, Jordan Age 14 Thanks so much, Jordan and first off what a beautifully written email I absolutely love that you have put so much thought and time into sending your thoughts in and for a 14 year old

[01:19:43] there is some really gorgeous writing so thank you for that and I love your honesty we don't want to just hear all of the people who raved and loved it we want to hear some of the criticisms too so I appreciate that

[01:19:55] and some of the things that you've pointed out I think we've already discussed here today in terms of some of the dialogue being stilted and some of the pacing and things like that as well I guess my only justification

[01:20:09] that I would want to argue a point with you is Bronwyn, I did agree that she was healthy really quickly but again it was those magical elven seeds we might have to blame it on that in terms of how she healed so quickly what do you think, Penny?

[01:20:23] I still don't know how they all got so clean Ash is very hard to clean it's really difficult to get off of your skin and your hair I really appreciate Jordan's point of view and as you said the letter writing is fantastic the language is really great

[01:20:41] I think it's just that different types of things matter more to me as a viewer than matter to Jordan I am much more into the visuals than I am the words so I can get very swept up in that

[01:20:54] but if the stilted dialogue was something you couldn't ignore it would really bother me Exactly, it's harder to get past for sure for some people absolutely and I think the fact that his letter was so well written does show me that words are really important to Jordan

[01:21:14] and so that was obviously more important than some of the visuals and some of the lore so we really appreciate your feedback thanks so much Jordan I hope you'll give Season 2 a try and come back to the podcast and you can write in and tell us what's wrong

[01:21:28] Yeah, and maybe some of those things might work themselves out so I'll be really keen to hear if you do give the rest of the seasons a try and I'm glad you managed to stick it out to kind of see the arc of the whole season

[01:21:40] so write in again and we'll see what you think Great, we got a few voicemails so I will start by writing them Hi, I know this is over This is Karen Just after Episode 6 I had to say that I was most amazed that in Steve's live Steve

[01:22:03] that he was not as overly blown away as I was with the Mountain Volcano Ghost Boom I mean I was standing up going Holy many bad words I could not believe because my first thought was like oh my god they're going to flood the village

[01:22:23] they're going to flood the whole valley and I was like how are they going to escape that and then suddenly it's like going under them and I'm like wait a second and when it goes into the mountain and it's hitting the lava I was just like holy shit

[01:22:41] and I was like really kind of glad I was glad my daughter was I think already asleep when I was watching this so she didn't hear me swear but then pissed that I had no one to share this with so again I am so happy for these podcasts

[01:22:57] and I hope that you listen to this belated recording of me because I just had to share how just freaking blown away I was by that I was not expecting that at all I could not believe that was the endgame so yeah wild alright bye

[01:23:15] we have another voicemail from Karen that is more of a all season review Hi Penny and Anwen it's Karen I I really enjoyed this I know you guys are doing a recap I just finished the last episode just loved the way they pulled it together and I

[01:23:43] was just like no that's not so wrong and then Paul Bruns up and they're giving them all the really good advice and I'm like wait a second and of course everything works out but I wanted to say that I really enjoyed this as someone who

[01:24:01] read not the Simmerillian but the other books got really really into Peter Jackson's Lord of the Rings and I felt like this was very faithful I mean you know the elves felt like elves the dwarves felt like dwarves they were just yeah that's exactly what I expected

[01:24:21] I know you guys were talking last week about Galadriel giving advice to Theo and I was like yeah that's what an elf would say wouldn't be all comforting like oh maybe they're still alive just giving you some bigly poetic thing about oh well

[01:24:35] we can't worry about what is unknown it's just such an elf thing to say so like I totally get that I also wanted to say from the last episode I think or the next last episode I agree I think with you guys theory about the Harfuts being very

[01:24:51] life is very black and white for them there's not a lot of gray and that's why they kind of go back and forth with the stranger and and that seems to make a lot of sense Nori needs to like you know keep the faith as it were and

[01:25:09] one last thing Penny said something last week like oh what happens in Mordor there's no sun there can't be any plants or animals what are they gonna what are they gonna eat and of course my brain instantly went well boys I guess meat is back on the menu

[01:25:23] so I just I had to say that I was like I hope somebody I don't know if anybody else had that same reaction that's exactly where my brain went despite the fact that I don't think they actually have restaurants

[01:25:37] in Mordor so they wouldn't know what a menu is but it's just such a great line and I love it and I don't care that it doesn't really work but like I was saying I just very much enjoyed this whole show I'm not the most critical

[01:25:55] viewer in the world I know this I just like a lot of stuff but if I continue to like it afterwards I know it actually is good so I really I kind of want to go back again at some point and watch it again

[01:26:09] and see what I miss I'll probably just wait until they're about to release season 2 because there's way too many other things I have to watch but anyway I've really been enjoying your podcast it's really been helpful for me to feel like I have someone to

[01:26:23] quote unquote talk about this with so yay that's I'm gonna stop there bye Karen thank you so much for calling in and I can't wait for your feedback when we're in season 2 two years from now yeah fantastic thanks so much Karen I really love

[01:26:43] your it's not like the live Steve but it's like you kind of relate what you said at the time I love when you're like I said this and then I said that that's fantastic I feel like I was in the room with you and I know that

[01:26:55] Karen watches a lot of shows with her kids and well her older kid is off to college but her daughter and I love that this is a show that families can watch together that it's not you know too racy or difficult and that you know younger

[01:27:11] kids can get exposed to these big themes it's lovely yeah it's great we won't tell your daughter that you were swearing though all right I've got another voice message here this one is from our friend Derek in Ireland hi I'm an impenny this is Derek here

[01:27:29] Dublin sending some feedback in for the Lord of the Rings the Rings of Power wrap up podcast that you've got I absolutely adored watching the Rings of Power every week it's such a great show an absolute epic watching it felt like a movie every week

[01:27:43] everything from the score from Bair McCreary and Howard Shaw was awesome theme just setting it up every time was really really enjoyable Loved Morphid Clark and her version of Gladriel this powerful leader and great fighter kind of put out to pasture when her vengeance became a problem

[01:27:59] just one of my favourite early storylines for the show you just really feel her frustration about this idea that she knows Sauron's there in the background that he has to be taken out and then the quest that she goes on to save Middle-Earth from the Orc army

[01:28:13] and gathering all the Numenoreans together but then it's all her fault she's the one that mistakenly brings back Sauron to this newly formed Mordor just a really big great arc for the show really enjoyed it loads of the great characters in the show as well

[01:28:27] and on dear the gorgeous incredible Elf I could watch a whole show with him and Bronwyn battling Orcs and bringing up Theo hope we get a lot more of them in season 2 the Harfuts particularly Norrie and Poppy were just the heart of the show

[01:28:41] I loved watching their adventures and learning more about their nomadic ways and their mantra of nobody goes off trail and nobody walks alone which kept the whole group alive for so long but Norrie was fighting against that idea of leaving people behind that they should all work together

[01:28:55] and now she's gone off with the Stranger it's really sad, it was a touching moment when she left her family behind but I was really sad to see that Poppy stayed behind as well because it feels like the story of the Harfuts is kind of over

[01:29:07] as Norrie goes off with the Stranger their relationship and their dynamic has just been so lovely to watch throughout the season so I do hope we check in with them in the future as well I think Blackbirders loved Lennie Henry and this role really, really good

[01:29:21] could have dominoed his Irish accent though it was a bit distracting as we've known Lennie Henry for so many years in various roles and he doesn't do a great Irish accent unfortunately I did talk about this show for hours but I will leave it with the excellent

[01:29:37] relationship between Elrond and Duran having that rekindling of their old friendship and this idea of the Colonel Elves not noticing 20 or 30 years passing by and the hurt that can cause to their friends that was really good. And then just a supportive relationship between Disa and Doreen.

[01:29:56] You could really feel their love come through the screen. Every scene they had together in The Minds of Moria was absolutely fantastic. The Minds of Moria themselves were amazing to see on screen. Really, really enjoyed that.

[01:30:06] Here's hoping poor Beric the horse won't spend the next two years looking for a seal door as we wait for the next season of The Rings of Parity Return. So much for the podcast as well.

[01:30:16] Really enjoyed listening to that every week just to round out my week of Lord of the Rings hoping to hear more from you guys soon. Bye. Thanks, Derek. Oh, thanks. Thanks so much, Derek. It sounds like we're on the same page about some of the things there.

[01:30:30] And I was really pleased to hear your thoughts on the Irish accents as well with the half. Which obviously didn't bother you too much with the rest of them, just with the with Zedock Barros, Lenny Henry's portrayal is slightly different.

[01:30:44] And of course, Derek hosts his own podcast, the TV podcast industries. And I highly recommend those guys. They cover all kinds of shows they've done. Pennyworth, Umbrella Academy, pretty much every single Marvel show.

[01:30:58] They covered Rings of Power as well if you want to get some more rings and power effects. And they do a really great job over there. So go and have a wee look for TV podcast industries and that'll

[01:31:07] that'll fill you with some many more hours of happy listening. And our final voicemail comes from former guest host Lucy. Lucy. Hi, Ann-Wen. Hi, Penny. It's Lucy from The Walking Deadcast here to offer some feedback on the overall season one wrap up episode for the Rings of Power.

[01:31:29] I have been so bad at keeping up with my shows in the last two months because Deadcast is back. Lord of the Rings is on. Game of Thrones is finishing and everything just feels like it's going full speed to Christmas.

[01:31:40] But last weekend I did take the time to sit and watch the final two episodes of the series. I still loved it overall. I think it was a beautiful, beautiful show. I've never seen such a... Oh, my cat is disagreeing with me.

[01:31:53] I've never seen such a kind of wonderfully rendered world on screen. And I think it blew a lot of the effects in shows like House of the Dragon out of the water in terms of how it looked.

[01:32:04] There were some things that I think were maybe a bit more heavy handed. And I think unfortunately the way I would think of this season as a whole is maybe just a little bit uneven. Like when it was good, it was brilliant.

[01:32:14] So I really loved the Sauron reveal. I thought Morphid Clark as Galadriel was wonderful. I really enjoyed every minute of Elrond and Duran. I thought that was all brilliant. But I had a harder time with the Harfutes. I found them less engaging.

[01:32:30] And I think my enjoyment of Numenor was just driven quite a lot by my deeper love for Ellen Day-Lynnis Yildur as I kept telling my friends, those dudes could get it. Anyway, overall, I am looking forward to season two and spending some of that journey with you both.

[01:32:44] Thank you so much for giving us such fantastic coverage. It was a real privilege to be a guest host and to be able to discuss it with you both. Penny, I can't wait to see you in San Francisco

[01:32:53] and Anne-Wynne the road goes ever on and on till we meet again. Thanks for everything that you do. Love you, Luz. Thank you, Lucy. That's so lovely. And we really hope that you can find some space to guest on season two when that comes around.

[01:33:10] Who knows what other shows are going to be covered at that time? So we'll cross our fingers for you. Thank you. Many years in the future. I have to agree with you about Ellen Deal and Yildur, very easy on the eyes as is Yildur's friend, Valendil. Quite handsome.

[01:33:28] Yeah, yeah, he's a he's a good Kiwi bloke. That one, the guy who plays Valendil. So it's nice to see New Zealand actors in there as well. And yeah, I have to say, Elendil for sure. He's he's pretty gorgeous, isn't he?

[01:33:42] Yeah, Yildur is just too young for me, but also quite beautiful. I can appreciate him from afar. Yeah, for sure. Well, thanks everybody so much for the amazing feedback. If you do want to write in or leave us a message, you can do that at any time.

[01:33:58] You can find all of our contact information at podcast.com. Whether it's about a specific episode as you're watching it or whether it's the series in general, please let us know. And while you're there, be sure to check out some of the other shows that podcastica covers.

[01:34:15] As Lucy just mentioned, Walking Dead cast is going strong right now. There are only a few episodes left of The Walking Dead. And we're having a finale party in San Francisco. All the information about it is on podcastica.com.

[01:34:33] If anybody doesn't know about it yet and decides they want to go. And there's other great stuff on podcastica right now. We were covering Dead to Me, The Netflix Show and Jonathan and his friend James are covering Andor.

[01:34:50] Jonathan was one of our guest hosts on on Cast of the Rings. On one, is there anything you're watching or listening to these days? Oh, look, we are doing our best to catch up. We've also been quite behind. Are we finally finished Umbrella Academy last night?

[01:35:06] Actually, I love Umbrella Academy. Yeah, it's going to be interesting to see what they do with the final season. I think there's one more. Maybe I heard that. But yeah, I didn't enjoy it as much as the other ones, but we are also catching up on Andor.

[01:35:19] We're only two episodes in. So apologies, Jonathan. I have been quite behind. I'm really keen to try and binge and get caught up with you guys for the final episode. We'll see what we can do over the next week.

[01:35:30] But so much out there, so much to listen and listen to and watch. So we're never stuck for choice, are we? No, we're very lucky. So next up on this podcast, we will be taking a break for a few weeks

[01:35:43] and hopefully coming back maybe in December to start our coverage of the Peter Jackson films, starting with Lord of the Rings, the Fellowship of the Ring and Penny, we'll have a chat about that. I think, is that news to you? No, no, no. Put that on the agenda.

[01:35:59] I'm like, yeah, let's do it. I knew we were doing the movies. I just didn't know if we were going to start with the Hobbit movies or the Lord of the Rings movies. Yeah, I'm not sure. We'll have a chat about it and we'll certainly let everybody know.

[01:36:10] But brush up on your stuff. And if you want to watch along with us, then we'll certainly let you know. We'll put a post out on all our usual Facebook pages to let you know what we're going to be doing.

[01:36:21] But we are really keen to hear your thoughts on them. So we'll give you a little bit of warning when we're going to do that and you can watch. It's funny because I kind of always think of the Lord of the Rings movies first because they're released first.

[01:36:32] But if we're doing it in chronological order, then it definitely makes sense to do the Hobbit. So let's see. We'll keep you posted. Yeah, we'll let you know. Yeah. All right, that's our show. Thanks for joining us, everyone.

[01:36:44] And remember, a bird in shed may either be halved or doubled depending on the heart that receives it. And sometimes to find the light, we must first touch the darkness.