17: "Elven Kings Under the Sky" (S2E1)

[00:00:05] [SPEAKER_01]: And with a new age I bring a new vision, a path to unconditional conquest.

[00:00:22] [SPEAKER_01]: For I seek a new kind of power, not of the flesh but over flesh.

[00:00:31] [SPEAKER_01]: Power of the unseen world, one we shall use to enslave the peoples of Middle-earth to

[00:00:38] [SPEAKER_01]: our very will.

[00:00:40] [SPEAKER_01]: Many orcs will die, but out of the chaos we will forge a new and perfect order.

[00:00:51] [SPEAKER_01]: No longer will we be hunted as the demons who broke Middle-earth, but rather worshiped as

[00:00:59] [SPEAKER_01]: the saviours who finally healed it by bringing its peoples together to rule them all as

[00:01:06] [SPEAKER_01]: one.

[00:01:28] [SPEAKER_00]: Greetings slimy, slithery Dark Lords, insect-crunching wanderers and bearded silver fox shipwrights.

[00:01:34] [SPEAKER_00]: Welcome to our podcast.

[00:01:36] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm Anwen.

[00:01:37] [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm Penny.

[00:01:39] [SPEAKER_00]: And this is the Cast of the Rings, Episode 17.

[00:01:42] [SPEAKER_02]: In this episode we're going to cover Season 2, Episode 1 of The Rings of Power, titled

[00:01:48] [SPEAKER_02]: Elven Kings Under the Sky.

[00:01:52] [SPEAKER_00]: We're finally here, Penny.

[00:01:55] [SPEAKER_00]: And it's...

[00:01:56] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm a little bit speechless.

[00:01:58] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm kind of...

[00:01:58] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know where to start.

[00:02:00] [SPEAKER_00]: We're here and we get to talk about Episode 1, Season 2.

[00:02:03] [SPEAKER_00]: How are you feeling?

[00:02:04] [SPEAKER_00]: Finally.

[00:02:07] [SPEAKER_02]: I didn't love the episode.

[00:02:09] [SPEAKER_02]: But I think the reasons that I didn't love it is that it was like a lot of

[00:02:14] [SPEAKER_02]: setup and exposition.

[00:02:15] [SPEAKER_02]: And I understand why they dropped three episodes at once, because I bet that episodes 1, 2

[00:02:22] [SPEAKER_02]: and 3 together are good.

[00:02:25] [SPEAKER_02]: But that just one is like...

[00:02:27] [SPEAKER_02]: It's not quite there.

[00:02:29] [SPEAKER_02]: That's my prediction since neither of us has watched two or three yet.

[00:02:34] [SPEAKER_00]: I feel the same.

[00:02:35] [SPEAKER_00]: And I think it's because...

[00:02:37] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think it was a wise move doing all three.

[00:02:40] [SPEAKER_00]: And I think we'll definitely be able to confirm that suspicion once we have watched

[00:02:44] [SPEAKER_00]: the first three episodes.

[00:02:45] [SPEAKER_00]: And we wanted to record separately for our own thoughts to kind of be clear on each

[00:02:49] [SPEAKER_00]: one and for those people who don't have time to go and binge all three at once and

[00:02:52] [SPEAKER_00]: they want to watch an episode, listen to us and then watch another episode.

[00:02:56] [SPEAKER_00]: That's all good.

[00:02:57] [SPEAKER_00]: And yeah, I definitely agree.

[00:02:59] [SPEAKER_00]: I think it was a lot of setup because after I finished watching, I went, okay,

[00:03:03] [SPEAKER_00]: so much happened.

[00:03:04] [SPEAKER_00]: But wait, not really much happened.

[00:03:06] [SPEAKER_00]: A couple of things happened.

[00:03:09] [SPEAKER_00]: But lots of setup and quite a bit of backstory too.

[00:03:12] [SPEAKER_00]: So yeah, let's see how we go.

[00:03:14] [SPEAKER_00]: As soon as we finish recording, we're getting to watch episode two.

[00:03:17] [SPEAKER_00]: So we'll see how that translates.

[00:03:21] [SPEAKER_00]: Definitely missed a couple of the civilizations.

[00:03:25] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, we've got no dwarves, we've got no Nomenoreans.

[00:03:28] [SPEAKER_00]: We haven't seen Isildur coming out of the ruins yet.

[00:03:33] [SPEAKER_00]: We haven't seen Theo.

[00:03:34] [SPEAKER_00]: We haven't seen Arondir.

[00:03:36] [SPEAKER_00]: And it was just really important.

[00:03:38] [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, what's this season going to be about?

[00:03:40] [SPEAKER_00]: It's going to be about some rings.

[00:03:41] [SPEAKER_00]: It's going to be about Sauron.

[00:03:42] [SPEAKER_00]: So let's really set that up.

[00:03:44] [SPEAKER_00]: So that was good.

[00:03:45] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:03:46] [SPEAKER_00]: So do you want to get us started?

[00:03:47] [SPEAKER_00]: What's your first thing that you'd like to talk about?

[00:03:50] [SPEAKER_02]: Let's just start at the very beginning, which is a very good place to start, I'm told.

[00:03:56] [SPEAKER_02]: And go get into the Sauron Adar origin story that we saw.

[00:04:03] [SPEAKER_02]: I first my first reaction was an Adar backstory.

[00:04:07] [SPEAKER_02]: Like I was so excited and we talked about it last time when I was like, I hope we get to learn about Adar.

[00:04:12] [SPEAKER_02]: And so, yay. Thank you.

[00:04:14] [SPEAKER_02]: Rings of power. You heard me and gave us some Adar story.

[00:04:19] [SPEAKER_02]: I thought that the casting and styling and depiction of the origin story Sauron was a weird choice in all the times when the elves narrate about the defeat of Morgoth and Sauron taking over.

[00:04:39] [SPEAKER_02]: The images that were shown are always this larger than human, intimidating, dark figure in a cloak with the Sauron crown on.

[00:04:50] [SPEAKER_02]: And then in that scene, we got this like sort of I mean, he looked like an elf.

[00:04:55] [SPEAKER_02]: He had the pointy ears and the long blonde hair.

[00:04:58] [SPEAKER_02]: And he was wearing like some kind of like shiny, pretty fabric.

[00:05:02] [SPEAKER_02]: And he was sort of erudite.

[00:05:07] [SPEAKER_02]: And I actually wrote down Prissy and I kept thinking like, first of all, he reminded me so much of Michael Sheen in the Twilight movies.

[00:05:18] [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you. That's in my notes too.

[00:05:21] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm not crazy.

[00:05:22] [SPEAKER_00]: I had a few crossed Michael Sheen from Twilight, Simon Pegg and Aegon from The House of the Dragon.

[00:05:28] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, my God. Because the speech he gives is so like weak and needy.

[00:05:37] [SPEAKER_02]: It's like nobody is like a narcissist. Right.

[00:05:40] [SPEAKER_02]: It's like classic abusive behavior.

[00:05:41] [SPEAKER_02]: He's like, nobody else will love you.

[00:05:43] [SPEAKER_02]: Only I will. I'm your only choice.

[00:05:45] [SPEAKER_02]: You have to follow me.

[00:05:46] [SPEAKER_02]: You better believe me. Like disbelieve me at your own peril.

[00:05:50] [SPEAKER_02]: He just seemed like such a weenie.

[00:05:53] [SPEAKER_02]: Like no wonder that one or tried to assassinate him.

[00:05:56] [SPEAKER_02]: And then at our I really enjoyed at our like reversing the crown and stabbing him with it.

[00:06:02] [SPEAKER_02]: I thought that was really cool.

[00:06:04] [SPEAKER_02]: And the look on at our space was so interesting to watch, especially the second time through when I knew what was going to happen.

[00:06:12] [SPEAKER_02]: And he was listening to the speech and he's looking out at the orcs and he's looking at Sauron and he has this sort of inscrutable look on his face.

[00:06:20] [SPEAKER_02]: But you can tell he's not happy about it.

[00:06:23] [SPEAKER_02]: Like, he's like, oh, I hate this guy.

[00:06:26] [SPEAKER_02]: And we find out later in the episode when at our tells Hall brand who he doesn't realize is Sauron about his beginnings and how Sauron is the one who gave him this drink that made him into what he is now or something.

[00:06:40] [SPEAKER_02]: Wasn't completely clear that he hates Sauron and you know, was he planning to kill him all along?

[00:06:48] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know where it wasn't like a spontaneous thing when he picked up the crowd, but like the crown.

[00:06:53] [SPEAKER_02]: But like it was interesting to watch his face because he was like.

[00:06:58] [SPEAKER_02]: Hate this guy and then the orcs are all grumbly mumbly right there like Sauron lies.

[00:07:03] [SPEAKER_02]: And I'm like, even the orcs don't like him.

[00:07:06] [SPEAKER_02]: Like he he sucks.

[00:07:10] [SPEAKER_02]: I it was not what I expected.

[00:07:13] [SPEAKER_02]: And then I started thinking again about what we talked about last time about sort of unreliable narratives and and written histories and poetry.

[00:07:21] [SPEAKER_02]: And you know, most of the histories are written by elves and from elves perspectives, and they weren't in that room.

[00:07:27] [SPEAKER_02]: And so it was what they thought happened.

[00:07:31] [SPEAKER_02]: And then I was like, was that mark that Galadriel has been chasing all over Middle Earth, the mark of Sauron ever Saurons or was it always at ours?

[00:07:42] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that's an interesting one because.

[00:07:44] [SPEAKER_00]: I couldn't see very clearly, but that looked like the brand that they branded onto the Southlands man when he swore allegiance onto.

[00:07:53] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think so.

[00:07:54] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I don't know.

[00:07:55] [SPEAKER_00]: This is a this is a show thing and the whole thing with Adar is a show thing rather than a book thing.

[00:08:01] [SPEAKER_00]: So again, we've talked about this a lot.

[00:08:03] [SPEAKER_00]: They can kind of do what they like when there's gaps in the law and they're using new characters to help move the story along.

[00:08:11] [SPEAKER_00]: And as long as it's well explained and I do like I do like the character of Adar, I think it's really great to have a character who is.

[00:08:20] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, this is a very light and dark show.

[00:08:22] [SPEAKER_00]: You've got the good guys and you've got the bad guy and then you've got this Adar in between who's kind of he's not a good guy, but he's got some good morals.

[00:08:33] [SPEAKER_00]: He looks after his team.

[00:08:34] [SPEAKER_00]: He loves his his Orc children.

[00:08:37] [SPEAKER_00]: And he's the enemy of our enemy.

[00:08:40] [SPEAKER_00]: So does that make him good or, you know, like it's ambiguous, which I really like.

[00:08:44] [SPEAKER_02]: It's much more nuanced than just straight up good versus evil.

[00:08:49] [SPEAKER_02]: Sauron is more nuanced as well.

[00:08:52] [SPEAKER_02]: There's definitely an implication in this episode and there were like direct references in the first season that he is looking for a way to leave evil behind him.

[00:09:04] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, he's like, I do want to go towards the good, but then he just constantly makes evil choices.

[00:09:11] [SPEAKER_00]: Exactly.

[00:09:12] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and can't help himself.

[00:09:13] [SPEAKER_00]: There's that kind of pivotal moment where he's there and he looks over towards the sort of smoke and ruin of Mordor and then he makes that choice to go with the people to get this new life or whatever it is over the sea.

[00:09:25] [SPEAKER_00]: But then he just can't help himself.

[00:09:26] [SPEAKER_00]: He's like, oh, that amulet might come in handy.

[00:09:29] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to rip that off.

[00:09:30] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, leave this guy here to die and take the amulet with me.

[00:09:34] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I did find a lot of that backstory very satisfying in terms of how did he, we asked this a lot.

[00:09:42] [SPEAKER_00]: How did he get there?

[00:09:42] [SPEAKER_00]: Where did it come from?

[00:09:44] [SPEAKER_00]: He's never lied.

[00:09:45] [SPEAKER_00]: He said to Galadriel, took it off a dead man and he did.

[00:09:49] [SPEAKER_00]: And to see what had happened, I quite liked the thing I did like about the

[00:09:56] [SPEAKER_00]: having a different actor to play that earlier Sauron.

[00:10:01] [SPEAKER_00]: Partly it reminds us and sets us up that Sauron can take different forms.

[00:10:06] [SPEAKER_00]: So I think it was good to see that.

[00:10:09] [SPEAKER_00]: I think some of the visuals they did were really good.

[00:10:13] [SPEAKER_00]: When he gets all upset and gross, his face goes all dark and veiny, just like how Brans did on the raft in the dream sequence.

[00:10:21] [SPEAKER_00]: I thought that was cool.

[00:10:22] [SPEAKER_00]: It was so creepy when he went all slimy and he went down the cracks into the caverns.

[00:10:30] [SPEAKER_00]: And it was disgusting.

[00:10:32] [SPEAKER_00]: It was like seaweed or spaghetti, like coated in oil.

[00:10:36] [SPEAKER_00]: It was beautifully done, but super gross.

[00:10:39] [SPEAKER_00]: And the sound was amazing.

[00:10:41] [SPEAKER_00]: Listening with headphones was incredible.

[00:10:43] [SPEAKER_00]: So squelchy and slithery and quite a horror movie like when he's the little slimy blob and he's lying on the ground.

[00:10:51] [SPEAKER_00]: And then that cart rolls over him and he goes up on the wheel.

[00:10:55] [SPEAKER_00]: There was just something so terrifying about that moment.

[00:10:58] [SPEAKER_00]: And I watched a couple of times, both times I just gasped and went, huh.

[00:11:03] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it was you knew that that driver was going to be a meal.

[00:11:12] [SPEAKER_02]: And I'm glad that they didn't go with the sort of cartoony option where the cart is rolling along.

[00:11:19] [SPEAKER_02]: The driver gets pulled into the shadow and then he steps out and sits in the driver's seat.

[00:11:25] [SPEAKER_02]: I almost expected it.

[00:11:27] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it was a bit slower, wasn't it?

[00:11:29] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:11:30] [SPEAKER_02]: And then the cart was stopped.

[00:11:31] [SPEAKER_00]: It was more kind of slow and menacing.

[00:11:33] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:11:34] [SPEAKER_02]: And then he climbs out and he does look a little bit like, I got to get used to this new body.

[00:11:40] [SPEAKER_02]: I could not help thinking about and comparing the spaghetti monster Sauron to Vecna from

[00:11:52] [SPEAKER_02]: Stranger Things season three, the season with them all when Vecna was eating rats and stuff

[00:12:00] [SPEAKER_02]: to grow. And I can't be alone in making that comparison.

[00:12:06] [SPEAKER_02]: It seems incredibly obvious to me.

[00:12:08] [SPEAKER_02]: That's just Stranger Things season three. I did not enjoy it. I thought it was really gross.

[00:12:13] [SPEAKER_02]: And I kept looking away from the screen. I did not like it at all.

[00:12:17] [SPEAKER_00]: I liked how gross it was because we do watch a lot of dark stuff and it's quite nice to be

[00:12:23] [SPEAKER_00]: grossed out by something. It actually reminded me of an old movie from the 80s, Creep Show 2.

[00:12:30] [SPEAKER_00]: There's this one story in that it's an anthology movie. There's this one story

[00:12:38] [SPEAKER_00]: this dark, black, goopy, oily slime in this lake and it gets these teenagers who are on a raft

[00:12:43] [SPEAKER_00]: and it kind of reminded me of that. And so it gave me flashbacks to the teenager

[00:12:48] [SPEAKER_00]: watching horror movies. So really well done and really good visual representation I think

[00:12:54] [SPEAKER_00]: of we know we're learning that Sauron can take different forms and to show how that

[00:13:01] [SPEAKER_00]: in the book it's very vague. It's kind of he came back and he had a new form or he then took this

[00:13:10] [SPEAKER_02]: form or you don't actually see that happen. Yeah, it seems a little more ephemeral and

[00:13:15] [SPEAKER_02]: I always pictured it because they also often refer to him as the shadow,

[00:13:20] [SPEAKER_02]: the shadow reforms. So I had always pictured it as being sort of smoky, mystical mist,

[00:13:28] [SPEAKER_02]: not visceral, oily, slimy like tentacles. That was surprising.

[00:13:36] [SPEAKER_00]: The one thing you said about that early Sauron and him being a bit prissy and being very

[00:13:43] [SPEAKER_00]: particular kind of thing. It sort of does fit with Sauron in that Sauron was all about order.

[00:13:49] [SPEAKER_00]: So Morgoth the first evil, Sauron's boss, he was just a chaos demon pretty much. He wanted

[00:13:55] [SPEAKER_00]: watch the world burn. He wanted to smash everything and Sauron is a different type of evil. He wants

[00:14:00] [SPEAKER_00]: order, he wants to control everything but he wants everything to be in its place and to be

[00:14:04] [SPEAKER_00]: ordered. So I think that visual representation of him did fit quite well with that and I

[00:14:10] [SPEAKER_00]: loved the bit where his eyes opened and then suddenly everything just froze. I was like oh

[00:14:15] [SPEAKER_02]: now we know how the north became frozen. That was quite a cool look. That was amazing and

[00:14:20] [SPEAKER_00]: scary, really scary. Yeah and now we know how Brand was doing before he got on the raft.

[00:14:27] [SPEAKER_00]: It was actually quite a quick step to that. Like okay he's got this form now and then he

[00:14:32] [SPEAKER_00]: goes on the raft. The timeline was interesting. On the screen there it says the beginning of

[00:14:38] [SPEAKER_00]: the second age and this tracks with when Adar says that he killed him. So right after

[00:14:43] [SPEAKER_00]: Morgoth was defeated he and Adar thinks that he killed Sauron. But I didn't think it was very

[00:14:52] [SPEAKER_00]: clear how long he was slimy for. I kind of expected another time indication on the screen.

[00:14:58] [SPEAKER_00]: When I thought about it after I thought I think maybe they don't really want to point

[00:15:02] [SPEAKER_00]: it out because they're crunching so much of the second age into a short span of time.

[00:15:06] [SPEAKER_00]: You know in reality book wise this is about 1500 years between

[00:15:10] [SPEAKER_00]: Morgoth being defeated and the rings being made. But they don't need to tell us that.

[00:15:16] [SPEAKER_02]: They don't really need us to know that. I think that they are being intentionally vague

[00:15:22] [SPEAKER_02]: at this point because we're going to see some of that time I think in between Slime Monster

[00:15:29] [SPEAKER_02]: and the raft. More time passed than we think. When he shows up at like on his way to the south

[00:15:36] [SPEAKER_02]: and meets the bizarrely friendly old man he's dressed differently and he's carrying a sword.

[00:15:46] [SPEAKER_02]: So something has happened in that time. I mean he had to travel across the country as well but

[00:15:53] [SPEAKER_02]: I think we're going to find out that other things happened and he's been active in the world doing

[00:16:00] [SPEAKER_00]: other evil things during that time. Good okay and that fits with something

[00:16:03] [SPEAKER_00]: that I'll probably talk about in our Galadriel's Mirror spoiler section because

[00:16:08] [SPEAKER_00]: there's some stuff and things so we'll go into more later but I like that that tracks.

[00:16:14] [SPEAKER_02]: I went back and rewatched the beginning of season one episode one when the specifically

[00:16:21] [SPEAKER_02]: part when Galadriel and her team of mutinous elf warriors go to that same place for Odwaith

[00:16:30] [SPEAKER_02]: and you know they climb the ice mountain. In her narration she says it's been centuries since

[00:16:38] [SPEAKER_02]: Morgoth was defeated so I think that means that it's centuries between when Adar crushes him

[00:16:46] [SPEAKER_02]: with the crown and he gets on the raft. I think centuries have passed.

[00:16:49] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes yes I think centuries many centuries passed with him being a slime monster in the cave

[00:16:57] [SPEAKER_00]: and then I think more time than is obvious passed between the cart and the raft so yeah

[00:17:03] [SPEAKER_00]: definitely agree. At first I was really confused when he meets those travelers and I really

[00:17:08] [SPEAKER_00]: liked the actor who played the old man and I liked his kind of attitude it was really cool

[00:17:13] [SPEAKER_00]: but I was confused by the smoke over the trees because it looked like an eruption and I thought

[00:17:17] [SPEAKER_00]: hang on Mount Doom hasn't erupted yet what's going on? I think this is the angle and the

[00:17:21] [SPEAKER_00]: way that it looked there was fire and stuff it really confused me. I thought it was Mount Doom

[00:17:25] [SPEAKER_02]: erupting. Yeah but it couldn't have been so it must have just indicated because what the

[00:17:31] [SPEAKER_02]: old man says to him is there's an army of orcs attacking humans so that must be just like

[00:17:37] [SPEAKER_02]: general destruction of war like fire they set maybe they set fire to the villages or something

[00:17:42] [SPEAKER_02]: if he had said in that conversation they set fire to all our houses then that would

[00:17:48] [SPEAKER_00]: have explained the smoke. Yeah I just think it was the angle and yeah just I don't know

[00:17:53] [SPEAKER_00]: I've been having um eruption dreams lately because of watching Mount Doom again recently.

[00:17:59] [SPEAKER_02]: That's great that must be really wonderful for your for your rest.

[00:18:04] [SPEAKER_00]: It's either eruptions or tsunamis but anyway let's not go there um so yeah when I saw the old man

[00:18:12] [SPEAKER_00]: with the amulet I thought oh no it's you sort of see these characters it's like lady in the

[00:18:16] [SPEAKER_02]: cart she dead and then you see the man with the amulet he dead. Yep no we're not gonna

[00:18:22] [SPEAKER_02]: don't bother to learn his name he's not gonna be here for very long. And then it was

[00:18:28] [SPEAKER_00]: cool to see the sea monster attacking um some more shots of that under the ship which was really

[00:18:34] [SPEAKER_00]: cool and then the sea monster there's Sauron under the under the water and he's just you

[00:18:41] [SPEAKER_00]: know it doesn't appear to need to breathe they're just sort of hanging out there looking

[00:18:43] [SPEAKER_00]: and then the sea monster comes up to to chomp on him and then the sea monster swims

[00:18:47] [SPEAKER_00]: away and I'm just like yeah when the scary thing is scared that's when you know

[00:18:51] [SPEAKER_02]: that you're facing some people. That's never a good sign and he didn't even do anything he

[00:18:55] [SPEAKER_02]: stared down the sea monster and the sea monster was like oh no and like turned tail and ran.

[00:19:02] [SPEAKER_02]: One thing I wondered was you know he's on the ship and he's talking to the old man and

[00:19:07] [SPEAKER_02]: he sort of feels the bottom of the boat and then he's like grab onto something and then

[00:19:11] [SPEAKER_02]: the sea monster attacks and I was like I wonder if the sea monster was attracted to him

[00:19:19] [SPEAKER_02]: and that's why it attacked in the first place. It was clear that he could sense it

[00:19:23] [SPEAKER_02]: but I also wondered if like Sauron has such an aura of evil that like dark creatures are just

[00:19:29] [SPEAKER_00]: drawn to him. Yeah possibly yeah it was scary. It was scary but cool. I didn't go back to look

[00:19:38] [SPEAKER_00]: at the the original raft scene but I wonder if they reshot a couple of the shots of his face

[00:19:46] [SPEAKER_00]: because when he helps her up onto the raft he has got such the evil more uh uh uh uh kind

[00:19:52] [SPEAKER_02]: look that he didn't have in the other episode. That was pretty uh it was fun especially because

[00:19:59] [SPEAKER_02]: like we talked about last time that it was like fun to see if he looked evil the first time

[00:20:03] [SPEAKER_02]: watching the show again and then this time I said it out loud I was like well this time

[00:20:08] [SPEAKER_00]: he looks evil. Definitely and remember the actor didn't know he was Sauron in that first

[00:20:14] [SPEAKER_00]: episode on the raft so yeah they've definitely gone back and fixed that up but it's cool it's

[00:20:19] [SPEAKER_00]: you're seeing it from the different perspective which is really good. Yeah anything else on

[00:20:25] [SPEAKER_02]: uh on early Sauron? We still don't really know why they call Adar Lord Father do we?

[00:20:32] [SPEAKER_00]: Not really I wondered about that actually this episode was when one of them said

[00:20:37] [SPEAKER_00]: Adar was that the first time they named him? Is that because he sort of seemed like Sauron's

[00:20:42] [SPEAKER_00]: sidekick to start with and then when they stabbed Sauron and then turned to him I

[00:20:48] [SPEAKER_00]: wonder whether that was them naming him Adar or had they called him that before because

[00:20:51] [SPEAKER_00]: he was around to help create them? I don't know. Yeah it's we still don't really know how orcs

[00:20:57] [SPEAKER_02]: were created we got a little bit of the Adar story about you know there were 13 chosen he

[00:21:04] [SPEAKER_02]: got chained to a mountain then he drank this stuff and whatever happened after that happened

[00:21:10] [SPEAKER_02]: after that we don't know what happened to the other 12 and we don't know how the orcs

[00:21:15] [SPEAKER_02]: were created yet I hope those things get filled in. Yeah there was some really cool

[00:21:20] [SPEAKER_00]: uh orc close-ups with their the makeup and the prosthetics is fantastic and I'm pretty

[00:21:25] [SPEAKER_00]: sure I spotted a female orc this time. Really oh that's exciting. Go back and look I'm not

[00:21:32] [SPEAKER_00]: certain but uh it looked like it so that was kind of cool. I've been wondering about female

[00:21:37] [SPEAKER_02]: orcs for literally years so um that is exciting news.

[00:21:44] [SPEAKER_00]: Fantastic all right um I would really love to talk about Cirdan. Oh yeah let's do it.

[00:21:51] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah first of all so handsome. Yeah I know isn't he oh he's just beautiful uh I've been

[00:21:58] [SPEAKER_00]: waiting to see him for for a long time um Cirdan's pretty well known in in the books

[00:22:04] [SPEAKER_00]: he was one of the highest and the most noble of the of the cinder so he was the lord of the

[00:22:09] [SPEAKER_00]: that area that region there um during the first age so that was the coast of Beleriand. You

[00:22:14] [SPEAKER_00]: remember when um Arondir and Adar were talking about Beleriand that was this really

[00:22:18] [SPEAKER_00]: beautiful elf area that was um ruined in that war with Morgoth

[00:22:22] [SPEAKER_00]: and he's the master of the grey havens. He was one of the wisest and most foresighted

[00:22:28] [SPEAKER_00]: he's the oldest elf remaining in middle earth and he was one of the very few to have a beard so

[00:22:34] [SPEAKER_00]: in the writings they you know most people go oh elves don't have beards but yep some of them

[00:22:38] [SPEAKER_00]: did especially the really older ones um in the stories he has a really long beard but I

[00:22:43] [SPEAKER_00]: like the choice that they made with the shorter beard it's a little bit more trim and it sort

[00:22:47] [SPEAKER_00]: of um yeah distinguishes him from all of those long bearded wizardy types that we are

[00:22:56] [SPEAKER_00]: at birth was Noe and he was the most skilled of his people in shipcraft

[00:23:00] [SPEAKER_00]: so just go to a little bit of background as well just to remind everybody um how things

[00:23:04] [SPEAKER_00]: happened at the beginning so elves were originally created in middle earth but not long after they

[00:23:10] [SPEAKER_00]: were made they were invited by the valar to live in Valinor so remember Valinor is that

[00:23:15] [SPEAKER_00]: blissful land where all the valar the sort of god-like holy creatures live. Some of

[00:23:20] [SPEAKER_00]: elves decided to go these included the Vanir and the Noldor so that includes Galadriel's people

[00:23:26] [SPEAKER_00]: and some chose not to go and they're named the Avari or the unwilling there's this other group

[00:23:32] [SPEAKER_00]: called the Teleri and they decided to go to Valinor but they were the last ones to leave

[00:23:37] [SPEAKER_00]: some of them made it to Valinor some abandoned the journey part way and stayed in

[00:23:41] [SPEAKER_00]: middle earth some of them became the Sindarin elves so that's Legolas's family

[00:23:47] [SPEAKER_00]: and some stayed near the sea and became known as the sea elves so Noe took the name Curran which

[00:23:52] [SPEAKER_00]: means shipwright and because he was really busy building these ships he actually left it too late

[00:23:57] [SPEAKER_00]: to leave into the west he could see the others it's quite tragic he could see the others leaving

[00:24:01] [SPEAKER_00]: but he was warned by the valar that his ship would not endure the journey and neither would

[00:24:05] [SPEAKER_00]: any other ship for many years until his work became very worthy and he would be very

[00:24:10] [SPEAKER_00]: important so he kind of watched them all sail off to these golden lands and he never got

[00:24:14] [SPEAKER_00]: to go there so he never saw the light of the trees even though he's the oldest the oldest elf

[00:24:18] [SPEAKER_02]: and that's so lonely I know oh that jeds such a different light on his lines in the

[00:24:27] [SPEAKER_00]: episode okay yeah doesn't it yep and and I like that his portrayal of you know he does

[00:24:33] [SPEAKER_00]: look sad he looks yearning he looks out into the west he's out there looking at the sunset

[00:24:39] [SPEAKER_00]: so he stayed there in middle earth he made a home in the gray havens and he made all the

[00:24:43] [SPEAKER_00]: ships that took the adine to numinoor so remember those those really courageous worthy men of middle

[00:24:49] [SPEAKER_00]: earth who helped to defeat morgoth and then they were rewarded with their island of numinoor

[00:24:54] [SPEAKER_00]: and they became the numinorians so he took the adine there to numinoor and he also shipped

[00:24:59] [SPEAKER_00]: everyone else off who got to go to valinor in the west and you've seen the lord of the rings

[00:25:05] [SPEAKER_00]: bovies he's he's the dude there in the gray havens that send the fellowship and everyone

[00:25:09] [SPEAKER_00]: gets to go to valinor off he basically has dear liz i'll stay here till the end

[00:25:14] [SPEAKER_00]: love the character I loved the casting I thought the portrayal by ben daniels was

[00:25:19] [SPEAKER_00]: amazing I just couldn't wait to see him and we go into that little village and then we go into his

[00:25:24] [SPEAKER_00]: his shipbuilding yard and I just was like oh where there he is and um I last saw the actor

[00:25:30] [SPEAKER_00]: in interview with the vampire he played Santiago and oh my god the difference he was so dark

[00:25:36] [SPEAKER_00]: cynical he was really deliciously savage and camp in that and this is so different he's quiet

[00:25:42] [SPEAKER_00]: and he's wise and he's measured and he's got the serenity about him that is just beautiful to

[00:25:47] [SPEAKER_00]: watch I couldn't take my eyes off him and he says to to alrond you do your father proud

[00:25:54] [SPEAKER_00]: um and oh that look on alrond's face when he's has his father mentioned is really sad as

[00:26:00] [SPEAKER_00]: so of course kia rand new iarendal alrond's father um a little bit more history as well and you know

[00:26:08] [SPEAKER_00]: you can delve right into this if you want to read all the all the backstories um but

[00:26:13] [SPEAKER_00]: generally the survivors of a bunch of those early wars um mingled there at the havens

[00:26:19] [SPEAKER_00]: and iarendal married alwing who was an alvin princess and a couple years later they had

[00:26:24] [SPEAKER_00]: these twins um alrond alros and alrond actually were they twins I'm not certain on

[00:26:29] [SPEAKER_00]: their brothers and um iarendal began his voyage in search of his parents so iarendal's parents

[00:26:35] [SPEAKER_00]: to and edrill were one of those three elf human pairings you know we always hear about there's

[00:26:40] [SPEAKER_00]: only ever three elf and human couples um so this was with this was one of them to to and edrill

[00:26:48] [SPEAKER_00]: and um to was a man who's one of the edine and so basically curran helped uh built

[00:26:54] [SPEAKER_00]: this ship for the purpose of iran deal to go off and search and also to head off to um to

[00:27:01] [SPEAKER_00]: velenor and his ship was called vingalote and guided by the light of the silmaril

[00:27:06] [SPEAKER_00]: iran deal navigated this ship vingalot through the shadowy seas over there towards um velenor

[00:27:13] [SPEAKER_00]: it was the first mortal to be able to to do that and then he was not allowed to return

[00:27:19] [SPEAKER_00]: to middle earth except um to join the host of the velar in that final battle

[00:27:25] [SPEAKER_00]: and a really cool thing that oh i don't know if we ever see it on screen we saw a tiny moment

[00:27:29] [SPEAKER_00]: of it in the prologue but um with his ship he actually slew and callaghan the black which

[00:27:35] [SPEAKER_00]: is the greatest dragon that ever lived go iran deal very cool and um after that you

[00:27:42] [SPEAKER_00]: know we had this we've heard this story a couple of times both in this show and also

[00:27:45] [SPEAKER_00]: in the lord of the rings um iran deal has that silmaril that magical jewel on his

[00:27:50] [SPEAKER_00]: brow and he sailed his ship into the sky and that's the morning star now so anytime you see

[00:27:55] [SPEAKER_00]: al ronde hear mention of his father i was saying oh there's so much amazing backstory and all we

[00:28:00] [SPEAKER_00]: know is that al ronde is sad because he never really got to know his parents kind of in

[00:28:04] [SPEAKER_00]: adulthood so this is all this backstory we don't see curran on on screen for a really

[00:28:09] [SPEAKER_00]: long time he's got a couple of important bits to do but i love knowing all that

[00:28:12] [SPEAKER_00]: grand stuff um so hopefully that's a bit helpful for people to understand a wee bit about him

[00:28:18] [SPEAKER_00]: what did you think of him um going and almost dropping the rings into the so i

[00:28:26] [SPEAKER_02]: rewound that scene several times because i couldn't understand exactly what happened

[00:28:33] [SPEAKER_02]: so he's he goes to drop the rings into this giant like chasm and at the bottom of the sea

[00:28:39] [SPEAKER_02]: and then something like rocks the boat and like throws the rings back on board

[00:28:46] [SPEAKER_02]: was it a wave was there something there did something hit his hand what did you see

[00:28:53] [SPEAKER_00]: i didn't see anything i saw the the boat rock and so yeah i don't know what we're supposed

[00:29:02] [SPEAKER_00]: to think there is there some other massive force that is trying to kind of still

[00:29:08] [SPEAKER_02]: influence what is happening right or is it just the rings themselves protecting themselves

[00:29:13] [SPEAKER_00]: yeah maybe you know things like that happen we've seen that happen before with the ring

[00:29:18] [SPEAKER_00]: falling at gladiol's feet we saw it happen and lord of the rings with the ring tumbling out of

[00:29:22] [SPEAKER_00]: um you know out of golem's hand and yeah it's it's not clear yeah but thank goodness he

[00:29:30] [SPEAKER_02]: didn't throw them in the in the chasm be a very short show and that was the end of it um

[00:29:35] [SPEAKER_02]: and then he he's tempted so quickly he's like oh those rings didn't go in the ocean

[00:29:42] [SPEAKER_02]: i'm gonna open the bag and look at them even though he up until this time has said like no

[00:29:46] [SPEAKER_02]: no no i don't i don't want to look at them and then um we don't get to see it but then later

[00:29:52] [SPEAKER_02]: he shows up in linden and and he's talking about perfection and that kella brimbor has

[00:29:59] [SPEAKER_02]: created perfection and earlier he had said to the shipwright student that perfection only exists

[00:30:06] [SPEAKER_02]: in valinor and after he sees and puts on one of the rings he says no perfection is here this

[00:30:15] [SPEAKER_02]: is perfection and i i think the pursuit of perfection and the idolization of perfection

[00:30:25] [SPEAKER_02]: is i don't know if i can say this fascist and i don't have a lot of respect for the concept

[00:30:35] [SPEAKER_02]: of perfection because i think perfection is static and that life is moving and dynamic and

[00:30:43] [SPEAKER_02]: and anytime that you stop moving it's you might as well be dead so perfection to me is

[00:30:50] [SPEAKER_02]: it's not a goal you want because it's a dead goal i'm not sure if i'm making sense but

[00:30:57] [SPEAKER_02]: it made me kind of sad that kurdan who i want so badly to revere he has all the trappings of

[00:31:05] [SPEAKER_02]: someone to revere right he's he's beautiful and he's got that presence that regal presence

[00:31:11] [SPEAKER_02]: and he's a teacher and he's a gentle teacher and all these things and then i was like

[00:31:16] [SPEAKER_02]: he just cares about perfection that's it i was i was disappointed

[00:31:23] [SPEAKER_00]: yeah i had a lot of thoughts about that as well and i think what we're seeing on screen there

[00:31:32] [SPEAKER_00]: is the power of the rings so i think they had to get it across that these rings are

[00:31:40] [SPEAKER_00]: very powerful they're magical they're captivating and they do create desire

[00:31:47] [SPEAKER_00]: or infatuation in the wearers and even though the three rings are good and you know so far

[00:31:55] [SPEAKER_00]: as we know the stage sarin doesn't have influence over them i think what we're seeing is

[00:32:02] [SPEAKER_00]: we had to see those three be happy about the rings and putting them on yeah in order to kind

[00:32:08] [SPEAKER_02]: of move the story along further for me they didn't sell it with kurdan i thought with

[00:32:18] [SPEAKER_02]: galadriel they really did sell her like irresistible draw to the ring and when she

[00:32:26] [SPEAKER_02]: when it fell at her feet and she picked it up that moment had a lot of magic in it

[00:32:30] [SPEAKER_02]: i i could have used like a little more magic with with here done on maybe on the ship even

[00:32:38] [SPEAKER_02]: if there had been like a glimmer of light that came out of the bag or something to indicate

[00:32:43] [SPEAKER_02]: that there was magic at work i think that would have helped me because as it was i was just

[00:32:47] [SPEAKER_00]: like that was us yeah and again it's for it's for drama you know yeah in the book he

[00:32:55] [SPEAKER_00]: doesn't try and destroy them right off the bat and it's not really described that much

[00:33:02] [SPEAKER_00]: kyrdan is really interesting because you know one of the very handy and helpful things about

[00:33:09] [SPEAKER_00]: tolkien's work is that it's all indexed so if you want to go to the back you you go okay

[00:33:14] [SPEAKER_00]: kyrdan where does he appear in it gives you all the page listings it's like lord of the rings

[00:33:19] [SPEAKER_00]: silmarillion tales of middle earth everything you can look them up but with kyrdan he's

[00:33:24] [SPEAKER_00]: got this long long list of many many pages that he's that he's on but not a huge amount

[00:33:30] [SPEAKER_00]: of it is description or story just about him a lot of it as he's just mentioned and then they

[00:33:34] [SPEAKER_00]: went to the great grey havens of kyrdan and then you know 50 pages later and then the the

[00:33:41] [SPEAKER_00]: men who who served kyrdan did this and it's a lot of mentions but not a lot of detail

[00:33:48] [SPEAKER_00]: when i was also thinking about him i was thinking okay who's the oldest in middle earth

[00:33:54] [SPEAKER_00]: he's the oldest elf and i found this really cute and handy table on the internet oldest

[00:33:59] [SPEAKER_00]: characters in the lord of the rings and it says kyrdan is over 10 000 years old which is pretty

[00:34:04] [SPEAKER_00]: cool tree beard is the oldest living thing in middle earth according to gandalf tom bombadil

[00:34:11] [SPEAKER_00]: is the oldest thing in middle earth according to himself and and then gandalf saruman and

[00:34:18] [SPEAKER_00]: sauron older than the universe although their physical bodies are only about 2000 years old

[00:34:24] [SPEAKER_02]: that was really helpful that's a great chart that's really funny yeah i was gonna say so

[00:34:30] [SPEAKER_02]: i did a little bit of of review on um the the history of the creation of middle earth like the

[00:34:38] [SPEAKER_02]: valar the maya the astari and i i get very confused about who's who and what's what and

[00:34:47] [SPEAKER_02]: i think part of my problem is that the maya are sort of divided into a couple of groups

[00:34:52] [SPEAKER_00]: and that the astari are maya right that's right yep okay so so the maya with so just going back

[00:34:59] [SPEAKER_00]: to the start so you've got eru aluva ta who's the the creator god and he created the valar

[00:35:05] [SPEAKER_00]: and the valar are these sort of higher order of they're not gods but they're sort of almost

[00:35:09] [SPEAKER_00]: like angels they're sort of holy holy spirits um and then they all had a bunch of not quite

[00:35:16] [SPEAKER_00]: servants but a bunch of um of other beings that were uh slightly lower in status to them

[00:35:22] [SPEAKER_00]: and usually were sort of assigned to each of the valar so you had um you know you had ala who

[00:35:27] [SPEAKER_00]: was one of the valar who um was the he ended up creating the dwarfs and he was the kind

[00:35:32] [SPEAKER_00]: of smithing guy the creator guy and um there was a bunch of um of of maya who served him

[00:35:39] [SPEAKER_00]: so sauron was one of those ones who served ala and you had all the different ones so you

[00:35:43] [SPEAKER_00]: got yvanna who's the the one who looked after all the earth and then this different

[00:35:47] [SPEAKER_00]: that kind of served her and so uh the istari yep they all started as maya um they were

[00:35:55] [SPEAKER_00]: assigned to a different particular one of the valar and then a small subset of those maya

[00:36:02] [SPEAKER_00]: were sent as messengers or helpers to middle earth in human-like form and they were the

[00:36:10] [SPEAKER_00]: istari they were the wizards um so yeah they're all the same class pretty much

[00:36:14] [SPEAKER_00]: all the wizards sauron and even um ungoliant who's that giant spider who is the the ancestor of

[00:36:21] [SPEAKER_00]: shilob um that was she was a maya and um so were the balrogs also so yeah there's a bunch

[00:36:30] [SPEAKER_00]: of them that were have given different physical forms when they kind of arrived to middle earth

[00:36:35] [SPEAKER_02]: thank you but i'm gonna have to keep reviewing it because it it gets mixed up in my head but

[00:36:42] [SPEAKER_02]: it's i love the richness of middle earth and that it has this entire mythology behind it it

[00:36:51] [SPEAKER_02]: it makes it sort of infinitely interesting you can dive as deep into it as you want to

[00:36:58] [SPEAKER_02]: but it does mean that sometimes i get confused yeah and that's where some of these websites

[00:37:03] [SPEAKER_00]: are really helpful like i've said before i do not hold all of this information in my head

[00:37:07] [SPEAKER_00]: and i love dipping and delving into the books themselves the actual source material but

[00:37:11] [SPEAKER_00]: there's a heap of really interesting stuff on the internet there and on each of our episodes

[00:37:16] [SPEAKER_00]: show notes we do put some links for some really great websites and you can just go down a rabbit

[00:37:22] [SPEAKER_00]: hole because you click on something you go okay i want to know about curadan and then

[00:37:25] [SPEAKER_00]: you click on that and then there's a bunch of different links within that two

[00:37:29] [SPEAKER_00]: different areas or peoples of middle earth and you click on that and then it always tells

[00:37:32] [SPEAKER_00]: you okay so who was their parent and who was their spouse and then what happened did they

[00:37:36] [SPEAKER_00]: do and which battles were they in and you could just be there forever so it is it is

[00:37:40] [SPEAKER_02]: the people who created those websites i salute you amazing isn't it yeah so amazing

[00:37:48] [SPEAKER_00]: yeah i think it probably would have been helpful for talking if he'd had that kind

[00:37:52] [SPEAKER_00]: of database type thing when he was actually writing because everything was pretty much on

[00:37:56] [SPEAKER_00]: paper and you know a huge depth of knowledge but um yeah it's a really nice way to kind

[00:38:02] [SPEAKER_00]: of sort it out all right i i think we sort of started touching on the um on the rings

[00:38:09] [SPEAKER_00]: so was there anything else about curadan particularly or did you want to have a chat

[00:38:14] [SPEAKER_00]: about the um the rings my next my next topic is named arguing over jewelry oh i wrote ring drama

[00:38:23] [SPEAKER_02]: so yeah let's get into the rings which what which make like a little magical tinkly noise

[00:38:30] [SPEAKER_00]: sometimes even when they're not moving they do they have they have that um sort of yeah

[00:38:37] [SPEAKER_00]: sparkly tinkly noise um whenever you see them or when you see the vessel in which they're being

[00:38:44] [SPEAKER_00]: carried you know they're in that little pouch it's like oh a special ring theme that opening scene

[00:38:50] [SPEAKER_00]: where you see uh galadriel and al ron's car chase through middle earth i had to kind of

[00:38:57] [SPEAKER_00]: get my head around it and i was like yeah okay i know it's two years since the show

[00:38:59] [SPEAKER_00]: came out but we have done a very recent rewatch and then i went actually hang on

[00:39:02] [SPEAKER_00]: they're both wearing the same clothes as they were in the final episode of season one did she

[00:39:09] [SPEAKER_00]: chase him all the way from irregion i think so that's about a thousand miles so i'm kind of

[00:39:15] [SPEAKER_00]: like a little bit of license there with the distance you know horses go about 30 miles a

[00:39:20] [SPEAKER_00]: day maximum so it would take them a month if they were for real um running horses that

[00:39:24] [SPEAKER_00]: distance but yeah for dramatic purposes it's cool yeah that's definitely what they imply

[00:39:30] [SPEAKER_02]: and that he got there slightly earlier than she did and was able to send guards back to

[00:39:36] [SPEAKER_02]: to capture her exactly yeah yeah as if she wasn't gonna go right to the king anyway but

[00:39:42] [SPEAKER_00]: no but my question was so so if they yeah so so if they're implying that it's a short

[00:39:49] [SPEAKER_00]: distance and they just galloped off and he she chased him all the way and kept just saying

[00:39:52] [SPEAKER_00]: give them to me give them to me that kind of makes sense if they did take longer it

[00:39:57] [SPEAKER_00]: makes sense because why didn't she tell him on the way about sour and this is one of my biggest

[00:40:01] [SPEAKER_00]: problems here with gladiola like as soon as she knew that that how brand wasn't the king

[00:40:06] [SPEAKER_00]: of the southlands she told our ron den calabrian born not to trust him and not to treat with

[00:40:11] [SPEAKER_00]: him but she didn't tell them right away that he was sour and i was like why and i wonder

[00:40:16] [SPEAKER_00]: was she just ashamed that she was taken in by him you know after searching for him all this

[00:40:20] [SPEAKER_02]: it seems like it and i think she was also afraid that i think there's a lot going on there this

[00:40:29] [SPEAKER_02]: is where galadriel starts to get interesting is when i think about this stuff because

[00:40:34] [SPEAKER_02]: i think she wanted those rings and she knew if she said sour hall brand is sauron that

[00:40:42] [SPEAKER_02]: like everything would stop and everyone would be like we got to think about what that means

[00:40:47] [SPEAKER_02]: got to think about with these like whether or not we want to use these rings it's a really big

[00:40:51] [SPEAKER_02]: deal we got to call a council let's get all our elders together whatever it is and so she was just

[00:40:57] [SPEAKER_02]: like don't trust him anymore and she's like give me the ring i want the ring i want the ring

[00:41:01] [SPEAKER_02]: she just wanted it and she knew like when the king questioned her she tried to sort of

[00:41:07] [SPEAKER_02]: weasel out of answering it even then and i think she knows that she really opened the

[00:41:15] [SPEAKER_02]: up to a huge risk and she's ashamed of it and also a little bit afraid of like

[00:41:21] [SPEAKER_02]: getting punished for it the king should have thrown her in prison yeah i mean i get i

[00:41:28] [SPEAKER_00]: definitely get galad's point but also depending on which way you look at it everybody was

[00:41:34] [SPEAKER_00]: taken in by hellbrand it wasn't just here so the new minorens were taken in our own was to

[00:41:38] [SPEAKER_00]: an extent as well we don't see a lot of it calabrian war definitely was um i kill galad is

[00:41:44] [SPEAKER_00]: haughty about it he just tells her off and last season he was annoyed that she hadn't found

[00:41:50] [SPEAKER_00]: sauron and now he's really annoyed that she has found him yeah he blames everything on her

[00:41:57] [SPEAKER_00]: and then he did a lot of finger wagging like literal finger wagging he wagged his finger just

[00:42:02] [SPEAKER_00]: repeatedly auron'd you go back and look at that scene and check it out it's quite funny

[00:42:06] [SPEAKER_00]: he's kind of unbearable i i'm not a fan i'm not a fan of galad no no i hope he redeemed

[00:42:14] [SPEAKER_00]: himself a bit but um yeah so super haughty and al ron jumps with the rings i find it so hard

[00:42:23] [SPEAKER_00]: to see a girl i drew on al ron being odds because i do think they set up really nicely

[00:42:27] [SPEAKER_00]: in that first season how close they are and it was a bit awful to see them feel betrayed

[00:42:32] [SPEAKER_02]: by each other yeah they were bickering like little kids which yeah did underline for me the

[00:42:39] [SPEAKER_02]: long history that they have i was like people who are not close don't bicker in that particular

[00:42:44] [SPEAKER_02]: familiar way yeah because they've hurt each other i thought his jump from the cliff was

[00:42:51] [SPEAKER_02]: so telegraphed like the camera was like here's el ron and there's a cliff and el ron and a

[00:42:57] [SPEAKER_02]: cliff look at the cliff look at el ron's like oh jump already like i i just we all knew what

[00:43:03] [SPEAKER_02]: he was gonna do it was a beautiful waterfall yeah i liked the moment where you can see al

[00:43:07] [SPEAKER_00]: ron's face where the moment she realized that was that was nicely done but i'm like why did it

[00:43:12] [SPEAKER_00]: take you that long to realize we knew he was going off that cliff for the last 20 seconds or so

[00:43:18] [SPEAKER_00]: and then later on um you know curdan brings the rings and they all put them on

[00:43:22] [SPEAKER_00]: and the the tree sparkles into life and al ron still seems pretty upset about it

[00:43:28] [SPEAKER_00]: i think he's still really convinced that the the rings can be used for evil yeah yeah i'll

[00:43:34] [SPEAKER_00]: probably talk a bit more about that in this in the spoiler section um but you know going back

[00:43:38] [SPEAKER_00]: to what you were saying all three of the elves that put the rings on look really enchanted by

[00:43:43] [SPEAKER_00]: them kirdan you know he says he finally believes that there's perfection outside of

[00:43:48] [SPEAKER_00]: valinor um gil gallard just manages to find one spare finger to slide it on with the rest

[00:43:52] [SPEAKER_00]: of us all of his king bling that he's got there he's like oh i've got one spare finger

[00:43:59] [SPEAKER_00]: without a giant rock on it um and then galadriel looks very kind of golemy my precious when she

[00:44:05] [SPEAKER_00]: when she sees the ring too which is interesting and we do know that she had some ambitions and

[00:44:10] [SPEAKER_00]: some thirst for power um in the silmarillion it says that she had dreams of far lands

[00:44:16] [SPEAKER_00]: and dominions that might be her own in order to order as she would without tutelage so

[00:44:21] [SPEAKER_00]: you know she she had this kind of not greed but she did have ambition to to have a little

[00:44:26] [SPEAKER_00]: power um but she that's also always tempered with that kind of noble spirit that she's got

[00:44:31] [SPEAKER_00]: that she she has this reverence and this respect for the valar and for what's supposed

[00:44:35] [SPEAKER_00]: to be good in middle earth um you know going back to her i guess i'm really rereading the

[00:44:42] [SPEAKER_00]: silmarillion now and it is interesting to see what we're what we're getting shown here

[00:44:48] [SPEAKER_00]: in this in this season because we're we're getting shown what looks like a much younger

[00:44:54] [SPEAKER_00]: seeming and sort of impetuous and impudent galadriel especially when she's in any scene

[00:44:58] [SPEAKER_00]: with with gil garland and he's wagging his finger at her in the book she's older than

[00:45:03] [SPEAKER_00]: gil garland and she's actually older than calabrian boar and she founded erigia on the

[00:45:07] [SPEAKER_00]: city with calabrian boar and her husband calaborn um and but we're just sort of seeing

[00:45:12] [SPEAKER_00]: this kind of young and wild kind of running around trying to do stuff galadriel and yeah

[00:45:18] [SPEAKER_00]: i just really really recommend reading a bit of background about her she's a really cool

[00:45:23] [SPEAKER_00]: character um back back in the history when morgoth destroyed those beautiful two trees of velanor

[00:45:31] [SPEAKER_00]: and galadriel's uncle feyanoa who we've heard about quite a bit before um he convinced heaps

[00:45:36] [SPEAKER_00]: of the elves to rebel against the valar and actually leave and chase him into middle earth

[00:45:40] [SPEAKER_00]: galadriel was the only woman of the noldor who who did that who stood up and left

[00:45:44] [SPEAKER_00]: velanor to go and help defeat morgoth um and it also says again with the ambition

[00:45:48] [SPEAKER_00]: she's eager to see those wide unguarded lands and rule a realm of her own so she's got this

[00:45:54] [SPEAKER_00]: ambition but she's also got this loyalty and honor and i do think we see her wrestling with

[00:45:58] [SPEAKER_00]: both of those um and this it's it's subtle if you don't know the backstory but if you do

[00:46:02] [SPEAKER_00]: know the backstory i think it's interesting to see that portrayal because she is sort

[00:46:06] [SPEAKER_00]: of struggling with both of those things because they are a little bit opposite um

[00:46:11] [SPEAKER_00]: and then yeah you mentioned gil garland should have should have sent her sent her away he

[00:46:17] [SPEAKER_00]: mentions the uh the etanmores and the etanmores is this bleak kind of wild mountainous area

[00:46:22] [SPEAKER_00]: that's infested with trolls and i love this little link because you know uh tolkien was

[00:46:28] [SPEAKER_00]: really good friends with cs lewis who wrote all the narnia chronicles and so tolkien has the

[00:46:34] [SPEAKER_00]: etanmores and um cs lewis has the etansmore really really similar and it's also a rough

[00:46:41] [SPEAKER_00]: stony area but it's invested with giants and not trolls so it's really nice to see

[00:46:45] [SPEAKER_00]: that link between them with the with their friendship and a similar land yeah

[00:46:52] [SPEAKER_00]: oh that's really funny i was struck again by the rings just not looking as good as

[00:46:57] [SPEAKER_00]: i wanted them to look i just think they look like they come from the two dollar shop

[00:47:02] [SPEAKER_02]: they're pretty cheesy uh they're they're a little over oversized you know they're kind of

[00:47:16] [SPEAKER_02]: with the ring when they put the rings on and and the light and the trees bloom and everything

[00:47:22] [SPEAKER_02]: was pretty cheesy and the way it was filmed there were a lot of shots of people's faces

[00:47:34] [SPEAKER_02]: you know having like awe or whatever about the rings and not a lot of dialogue and not a lot

[00:47:40] [SPEAKER_02]: of movement of people i thought it was strange and stilted and um i it didn't sell it for me

[00:47:50] [SPEAKER_02]: there was something awkward about it that just didn't work for me and then until they pulled

[00:47:55] [SPEAKER_02]: back and we could see it from a distance this like basically tiny sun on the edge of this cliff

[00:48:01] [SPEAKER_02]: that was you know the light of these of the power of these rings that was beautiful but

[00:48:08] [SPEAKER_02]: like when she goes to put the ring on and they just show l ron go no it's like really calm

[00:48:17] [SPEAKER_02]: voice and it's just his face and there's no context i thought it was filmed really strangely

[00:48:25] [SPEAKER_00]: yeah i think it's very sort of simplified and i know we've talked about this before

[00:48:31] [SPEAKER_00]: that the this whole theme of the elves fading and and being in trouble and they're

[00:48:36] [SPEAKER_00]: dying by next spring if they haven't got the the mithril and these magic rings and things

[00:48:40] [SPEAKER_00]: and the tree is kind of a symbol of that and then putting on the rings under the tree the

[00:48:45] [SPEAKER_00]: tree suddenly heals um it's very dramatic and it's very sudden and it's it's a theme that's

[00:48:51] [SPEAKER_00]: that's how they're sort of portraying this this concept um it's very fantastical and very

[00:48:57] [SPEAKER_00]: obvious and um very overt the way they're doing it um i think they did do it kind of

[00:49:03] [SPEAKER_00]: and i just yeah maybe it makes more sense when we've seen the whole season because

[00:49:08] [SPEAKER_00]: i think there's a lot to have happen and they just want to get into the action so

[00:49:12] [SPEAKER_00]: like you said at the very top of the podcast this is a lot of setup so we need the pieces

[00:49:18] [SPEAKER_00]: to be put into place for the next part to happen so perhaps that's why why we're seeing

[00:49:23] [SPEAKER_00]: that but yeah i i we've talked about it in the past where there's a lot of detractors

[00:49:31] [SPEAKER_00]: out there who don't like the rings of power and is a very vocal on the internet and i had

[00:49:37] [SPEAKER_00]: kind of thought two years later if they're not into it they just wouldn't be talking about it

[00:49:40] [SPEAKER_00]: but they're back i follow quite a few lord of the rings groups on facebook and i've had to

[00:49:46] [SPEAKER_00]: unfollow them all for a bit because every single post is just nonsense people like 300

[00:49:53] [SPEAKER_00]: comments about how terrible it is and how it's an abomination and how it's like all the stuff

[00:49:59] [SPEAKER_02]: just go away and don't watch it and don't talk about it there's a lot to love i'm picky and

[00:50:09] [SPEAKER_02]: and i'm watching it very closely because of this podcast if i weren't watching it so closely

[00:50:15] [SPEAKER_02]: i don't think i would have i would have thought it was as cheesy like i think

[00:50:21] [SPEAKER_02]: doing the podcast makes me have sort of higher expectations and higher standards

[00:50:25] [SPEAKER_00]: yeah but i'm still overall enjoying it yeah i think if you're not delving into it so much

[00:50:32] [SPEAKER_00]: you can just take it as pure entertainment and just let it wash over you and really enjoy that

[00:50:36] [SPEAKER_00]: and i hope that a lot of people are doing that because i do know there's lots of people out

[00:50:40] [SPEAKER_00]: there enjoying it as well um and yes just try not to listen to those detractors because

[00:50:45] [SPEAKER_00]: it's sort of like people think that they can prove how big a fan they are of Tolkien if

[00:50:50] [SPEAKER_00]: they don't like the rings of power and how you could never be a fan and like it and so

[00:50:54] [SPEAKER_02]: it's actually not true so yeah yeah jog on and it yeah there's like i am not um i don't believe

[00:51:01] [SPEAKER_02]: in gatekeeping fandoms i i don't believe in these like purity tests like are you really a fan

[00:51:08] [SPEAKER_02]: only if you like it in this one particular way are you a fan and a lot of times those

[00:51:14] [SPEAKER_02]: gatekeepers and and tests are very misogynistic or racist or both and

[00:51:21] [SPEAKER_02]: they're just a way for some people who maybe don't feel good about themselves to to feel

[00:51:28] [SPEAKER_02]: superior to other people in some way that they've created in their own mind it's yeah

[00:51:33] [SPEAKER_00]: honestly it's a waste of energy yeah i i did hear a cool thing um that henry cavill said

[00:51:39] [SPEAKER_00]: after the witcher and people some people were saying oh what do you what do you say to all

[00:51:44] [SPEAKER_00]: the hate out there or the people who think it's too different from the books or you know

[00:51:48] [SPEAKER_00]: it's not not okay and he said i don't see it as hate i see it as passion so if someone's really

[00:51:55] [SPEAKER_00]: into something and they want to defend it then that's cool that's their deal that's their

[00:51:58] [SPEAKER_00]: passion that's great i'm not going to um to to argue against it i thought that's quite a nice

[00:52:02] [SPEAKER_00]: way of looking at things but you know sometimes you have to limit the amount of passion

[00:52:07] [SPEAKER_02]: that you see from people that's negative like that just don't read it yeah uh that is that

[00:52:14] [SPEAKER_02]: is a very uh open-minded and charitable view of he's just lovely though isn't he

[00:52:20] [SPEAKER_02]: aspects of the fandom yeah he seems to be a solid person yeah we love henry

[00:52:27] [SPEAKER_00]: um yeah i didn't i didn't have a lot else on the rings apart from what we might talk about

[00:52:31] [SPEAKER_00]: in this spoiler section um i had mostly a bunch of little notes here did you have any

[00:52:38] [SPEAKER_02]: things that you wanted to talk about um yeah i want to talk about present-day sauron

[00:52:46] [SPEAKER_02]: and why he goes to the southlands and surrenders himself to adar i can't decide if he actually

[00:52:58] [SPEAKER_02]: cared about the humans who were being enslaved and sincerely wanted to free them or if it was

[00:53:07] [SPEAKER_02]: all a ploy to try to get adar and the orc army out of mordor and bring them into conflict with

[00:53:17] [SPEAKER_02]: the elves so that the two armies could sort of destroy each other and that he's just playing

[00:53:23] [SPEAKER_00]: everybody yeah i think um playing everybody is always your go-to explanation for anything that

[00:53:31] [SPEAKER_00]: sauron ever does i don't think he does anything by accident i think he does everything to his

[00:53:36] [SPEAKER_00]: advantage uh and i we've talked about sauron wanting to repent or wanting to do good

[00:53:44] [SPEAKER_00]: and we've seen that and we've read about it but we've also seen it a little bit um

[00:53:50] [SPEAKER_00]: when he is being how brand when he takes that step to go on the ship um you know even maybe

[00:53:55] [SPEAKER_00]: when he is helping the new menorians it's always hard to tell whether it's a a different

[00:54:02] [SPEAKER_00]: for him or whether that's part of it but i do think now that we're just seeing him dark like

[00:54:07] [SPEAKER_00]: i don't think he's doing anything for the good of anybody else at this point i think

[00:54:11] [SPEAKER_00]: as soon as we saw him looking off into mordor at the end of that first season i was like okay

[00:54:16] [SPEAKER_00]: he's he's bad sauron now that's what he's doing so it's really about like you say

[00:54:21] [SPEAKER_00]: figuring out whether he's there to get them on side or whether he's there to

[00:54:28] [SPEAKER_00]: distract them he's obviously just got no fear at going in there he can just go in there and

[00:54:33] [SPEAKER_00]: you know he just hangs out with that wag for a while and is kind of tortured and beat up

[00:54:38] [SPEAKER_00]: doesn't really care um waldrake was so horrible to him oh can i just say not rip but good

[00:54:45] [SPEAKER_02]: riddance waltry yeah no one wag food no one's gonna mourn waldrake he's there's no one

[00:54:53] [SPEAKER_02]: there being like no not waldrake yeah he's a horrible person i loved the character and

[00:54:59] [SPEAKER_00]: i loved the portrayal of him i thought it was really well acted but just you're just

[00:55:03] [SPEAKER_02]: so punchable i was like go away yeah and being you know he sort of got the the ramsey bolton

[00:55:12] [SPEAKER_02]: um outcome there being uh eaten by his own warg i enjoyed that a lot i enjoyed that exact

[00:55:21] [SPEAKER_02]: scene when he's like so you're gonna kill me before you leave aria and then you know sauron

[00:55:29] [SPEAKER_02]: leaving the camp hears the warg attack happen and he's like

[00:55:36] [SPEAKER_02]: where i was like yeah he got it you know and you're like oh no i'm rooting for sauron like

[00:55:42] [SPEAKER_00]: oh no yeah and i i had seen a couple of of interviews and moments from people when they've

[00:55:50] [SPEAKER_00]: you might find yourself rooting for the bad guy at times in this and i do like that um complexity

[00:55:56] [SPEAKER_00]: and uh yeah i liked again a representation of sauron's power when he's sitting there

[00:56:02] [SPEAKER_00]: confronted by the warg and it's just um suddenly becomes this kind of compliant puppy dog

[00:56:08] [SPEAKER_00]: and yeah does does what he says so i thought that was really cool um yeah i like i did

[00:56:14] [SPEAKER_00]: the scenes with edda and sauron and i just i found it so satisfying to get what their backstory was

[00:56:21] [SPEAKER_00]: so to know you know that little part at the start whatever faults that um opening part had

[00:56:26] [SPEAKER_00]: we do know why and when they came to odds and it's just interesting that edda doesn't

[00:56:33] [SPEAKER_00]: recognize him in this form um yeah and yeah i'm getting used to the new actor for edda

[00:56:41] [SPEAKER_00]: i think he's got the same sort of gravitas as as um the previous one but i don't think he has the

[00:56:47] [SPEAKER_00]: same kind of tragic depth as the original edda i think a little later yeah yeah i think he was

[00:56:57] [SPEAKER_00]: kind of weighed down by a bit more sadness the first the first iteration of him um and

[00:57:04] [SPEAKER_00]: yeah so so hellbran goes there right and he and he he hands himself in and he says that

[00:57:09] [SPEAKER_00]: to negotiate or whatever um and he tells edda that the elves basically have found sauron now

[00:57:14] [SPEAKER_00]: he doesn't mention the name sauron he basically just says oh they've got this ancient sorcerer

[00:57:19] [SPEAKER_00]: who's helping them do the things and then obviously edda and war dreg and all his other

[00:57:25] [SPEAKER_00]: minions are sort of putting it together oh do you really think sauron could be alive

[00:57:29] [SPEAKER_00]: and then the first one they mentioned sauron is actually war dreg coming in to

[00:57:33] [SPEAKER_00]: to taunt him with the food and saying tell tell old world drink everything you know about

[00:57:37] [SPEAKER_00]: sauron and that's the first time you hear the mention um and so yeah i kind of i was the same

[00:57:45] [SPEAKER_00]: as you what's his game like what's he what's he doing there because he you know if he is

[00:57:51] [SPEAKER_00]: going to end up you know attacking the good side he is going to need an army so he he's

[00:57:57] [SPEAKER_00]: got to have a bunch of orcs who are on his side so it's difficult to know what his game

[00:58:03] [SPEAKER_02]: is there with edda it'll all be revealed i'm sure yeah um and we also we learned with the war

[00:58:12] [SPEAKER_02]: again the sea creature that he has whether it's control over dark creatures or an understanding

[00:58:21] [SPEAKER_02]: or an ability to speak to them whatever it is he's able to to work his will through them

[00:58:28] [SPEAKER_02]: that's an interesting thing to know about sauron i didn't know that he had that power it makes

[00:58:33] [SPEAKER_02]: sense um and he vows he's he's told he has to kneel and vow to addar and he vows to serve

[00:58:41] [SPEAKER_02]: quote the lord of mortar to the end of my days and his which is as a lawyer i'm like

[00:58:48] [SPEAKER_02]: he didn't say the words you asked him to say like you gotta go back in there and

[00:58:54] [SPEAKER_02]: re-question your witness like that's not okay and in my notes i wrote tricksy hobbit says

[00:59:00] [SPEAKER_02]: i just uh it's it's careful wording and he does that a lot and it is something that appeals to

[00:59:08] [SPEAKER_02]: the lawyer part of me is when people are clever with their statements he's clever with words

[00:59:14] [SPEAKER_00]: he doesn't lie or refuse things he just sees them in the way that suits him sauron serves

[00:59:20] [SPEAKER_00]: and that's where that's where he's going with that and even with his face in the mud next to

[00:59:26] [SPEAKER_00]: addar's boots he he says the words and then he almost sort of smiles and smirks as well

[00:59:33] [SPEAKER_00]: you can see him going i'm not seeing what you think i'm seeing exactly and i am the dark lord

[00:59:40] [SPEAKER_02]: i'm like addar you're smarter than this listen to the actual words he said but

[00:59:45] [SPEAKER_00]: it's a tv show yeah there you go and they've got to let him go so he can um he can head on out to um

[00:59:52] [SPEAKER_00]: back to eurigion yeah um so so this is right at the very end we see him um go to to eurigion

[01:00:00] [SPEAKER_00]: and um yeah most of what i want to say about that is probably in the spoiler section but

[01:00:06] [SPEAKER_00]: one of the things i can say i guess is um you know the obviously the message didn't

[01:00:11] [SPEAKER_00]: apparently didn't get to calabran boran time that that how brand is sauron or maybe it did

[01:00:16] [SPEAKER_00]: but one thing that's notable i think is that we don't really see a proper reaction from

[01:00:20] [SPEAKER_00]: calabran bore when he says how brand arrive they say there's a someone to negotiate from

[01:00:25] [SPEAKER_00]: the southlands and then he shows up and then you see calabran was face is quite neutral and

[01:00:30] [SPEAKER_00]: then the the elf um elf smith um there's another another woman for you with a line

[01:00:37] [SPEAKER_00]: yeah she has a name too yeah yeah i saw that on the subtitles meridonia yeah yeah um so she says

[01:00:45] [SPEAKER_00]: shall we let him in pretty much and then you just sort of see

[01:00:49] [SPEAKER_00]: calabran was face and you're not sure what's going to happen and yet such the teaser i'm

[01:00:53] [SPEAKER_00]: excited to go straight into the second episode again after we record because i'm like what's

[01:00:58] [SPEAKER_02]: gonna happen if the second episode doesn't pick right up there i'm gonna be so frustrated

[01:01:02] [SPEAKER_02]: yeah it's very it would be interesting incredibly believable if the second episode completely

[01:01:11] [SPEAKER_02]: focuses on like the dwarves and our own deer and the humans and we don't even see elves at

[01:01:18] [SPEAKER_02]: all until the third episode again it'll drive me crazy but i won't be surprised we'll go

[01:01:23] [SPEAKER_00]: we'll go there and we are recording in fairly quick succession um just a couple of days in

[01:01:29] [SPEAKER_00]: between episode one and two so as soon as we've recorded episode two that's it we can watch

[01:01:32] [SPEAKER_00]: episode three the irony is um of course we got screeners again from amazon thank you amazon

[01:01:39] [SPEAKER_00]: it's awesome to have these episodes in advance um but the great irony of that is that we are

[01:01:44] [SPEAKER_00]: spacing them out for ourselves in these first three so some people will have seen all three

[01:01:47] [SPEAKER_00]: and we haven't yet so um yeah don't spoil us no

[01:01:54] [SPEAKER_00]: yeah and yeah that's pretty much all i have to say about about how brand's coming back

[01:01:59] [SPEAKER_00]: to um eureka on except to say that i was really surprised that that happened i didn't

[01:02:04] [SPEAKER_02]: expect that at all yeah i didn't either and he told adar and waldrag you know i have the

[01:02:09] [SPEAKER_02]: trust of the elves and i was like no you don't but um i guess maybe he does have the

[01:02:18] [SPEAKER_02]: of kill we don't know yet we don't know we don't know but they let him in like they

[01:02:22] [SPEAKER_00]: didn't kill him on sight that's something no so either the message didn't get through yet or

[01:02:30] [SPEAKER_00]: there's other stuff going on yeah yeah stay with us for the spoilers if you want to

[01:02:35] [SPEAKER_00]: to dive into that with us all right so one other whole storyline we haven't touched on at

[01:02:43] [SPEAKER_00]: is our little ramble to the east by the stranger and nori what are your thoughts on that

[01:02:52] [SPEAKER_02]: um i thought that the song turning out to be directions was cute i've seen it before in other

[01:03:02] [SPEAKER_02]: fantasy and science fiction novels um but it was cute but then it was a little ridiculous

[01:03:10] [SPEAKER_02]: how they were like oh it's the song that means we go this way we were found like it seemed very

[01:03:16] [SPEAKER_02]: fast and like the directions were not that hard considering they had been wandering lost for

[01:03:21] [SPEAKER_02]: like however long they were supposedly lost i'm glad poppy's back in the mix she's adorable

[01:03:27] [SPEAKER_00]: that's nice yeah uh my question was they knew about saddock's book and so why didn't they

[01:03:37] [SPEAKER_00]: fosuk through that before nori left to see if there was anything helpful yeah or take it with

[01:03:42] [SPEAKER_00]: them yeah that's a little but it's a good storytelling device that they had to get lost

[01:03:48] [SPEAKER_00]: and then they found her and yeah yeah it's cute you had you had to have a bit of a journey

[01:03:51] [SPEAKER_00]: i mean obviously they're there now i think we're going to see the action kick up

[01:03:53] [SPEAKER_00]: into what happens in ruin but again set up for the rest of the season and just really nice

[01:03:59] [SPEAKER_00]: to see that relationship between nori and the stranger i definitely think he's channeling

[01:04:07] [SPEAKER_00]: ian mckellan now his mannerisms are getting more and more gandalfy as we go yeah um i loved

[01:04:13] [SPEAKER_00]: the how he put his hands to the earth when he was trying to get the tree to bloom and the

[01:04:18] [SPEAKER_00]: gravel moved it kind of looked a bit like when desa resonated the stone and also in the

[01:04:23] [SPEAKER_00]: opening titles when you see all those little granules moving around i thought that was great

[01:04:28] [SPEAKER_00]: um this the subtitles say that he's speaking quenya which is the older of the two main alvin

[01:04:35] [SPEAKER_00]: languages um that quenya was spoken by the elves who made it to velanor so it's sort of

[01:04:39] [SPEAKER_00]: an older one used often in record keeping or kind of more formal environments it's a little

[01:04:45] [SPEAKER_00]: bit like latin i guess um generally in middle earth most elves spoke sindarin which is a

[01:04:50] [SPEAKER_00]: bit more simplified form of alvish but i like that the subtitles mentioned that it was quenya

[01:04:55] [SPEAKER_00]: that's what he would speak um yeah it's a nice detail ancient yeah i thought the explosion of

[01:05:02] [SPEAKER_02]: bugs out of the tree and then nori's reaction being joyful like i was like ew oh like i just

[01:05:09] [SPEAKER_02]: i went through a whole roller coaster of emotions there like yeah are they gonna i expected him to

[01:05:15] [SPEAKER_02]: like have the tree bear fruit i was not ready for bugs it was a nice change and i really

[01:05:22] [SPEAKER_00]: liked how it uh it just was another example of half-foots living off the land and making

[01:05:29] [SPEAKER_00]: the most of what they have and the resources around them she goes you know she would have

[01:05:34] [SPEAKER_00]: loved a nice juicy apple but hey that's protein there's heaps of it there yeah that that moment

[01:05:41] [SPEAKER_00]: where he talks about the the legs wriggling in his throat was so cute yeah and gross

[01:05:47] [SPEAKER_02]: really gross to me i've never eaten a bug i hope i never have to eat a bug um i can't imagine being

[01:05:54] [SPEAKER_02]: hungry enough to want to eat a bug uh it's pretty gross what did you make of the

[01:06:00] [SPEAKER_02]: mysterious skull mask horse people um well oh you probably know who they are no but watching

[01:06:09] [SPEAKER_00]: with my husband i was like oh it's the sand men that's what i said i was like sand people

[01:06:15] [SPEAKER_02]: walk single file to hide their numbers like i just yeah and they're in a desert everything about

[01:06:22] [SPEAKER_00]: that was star wars was he yeah even i feel a little bit even like the the the skull people

[01:06:31] [SPEAKER_00]: sand people pov with the kind of distorted lens kind of thing yeah with the legs they're very

[01:06:37] [SPEAKER_02]: star warsy rustic telescope they had going there yeah the whole thing was just very star

[01:06:43] [SPEAKER_00]: wars yeah um i mean yeah i don't i don't really know who they are but i think it is you know

[01:06:51] [SPEAKER_00]: leading us towards that mysterious stuff that's going to happen in rune we've seen the mystics

[01:06:56] [SPEAKER_00]: they came from that area and um yeah so they're definitely setting up what we're going to meet

[01:07:01] [SPEAKER_02]: there i'm excited about rune because it's an area of middle earth we've never seen on screen

[01:07:08] [SPEAKER_00]: ever we've never seen it and it's it's very little described as well in the book so they do

[01:07:14] [SPEAKER_00]: have a bit of license to do what they like with it which is going to be cool it's a different

[01:07:18] [SPEAKER_00]: you know a lot of middle earth is is green and beautiful and verdant and um

[01:07:23] [SPEAKER_00]: mountainous and lots of lakes and rivers and um you know it's new zealand it was and um

[01:07:30] [SPEAKER_00]: and now it's this this whole different landscape that's um dry and arid and crumbly

[01:07:36] [SPEAKER_00]: it's going to be really cool to see what they do with that i must say i did notice that this

[01:07:43] [SPEAKER_00]: season is not filmed in new zealand i don't know if people who are not from here would notice

[01:07:47] [SPEAKER_00]: obviously the the desity parts are you know would never have probably been filmed here

[01:07:52] [SPEAKER_00]: anyway but um although we do have some sort of volcanic desity areas in the north island

[01:07:58] [SPEAKER_00]: but um there are a few scenes where i just went oh i can tell it's being filmed in england

[01:08:03] [SPEAKER_00]: and i think they've got that second unit where they maybe uh digitally add some of the new zealand

[01:08:08] [SPEAKER_00]: mountains to the background or whatever but i felt it and i just thought that's sad i i thought

[01:08:14] [SPEAKER_02]: that the the snowy scenes with the spaghetti monster looked very alpine i was like that that

[01:08:23] [SPEAKER_02]: is a swiss mountain i think um it just didn't look like the mountains from lord of the rings

[01:08:30] [SPEAKER_00]: to me yeah it's hard to tell because there are um and well that we literally they're called the

[01:08:36] [SPEAKER_00]: southern alps the main mountain range in the south island of new zealand uh there's a lot

[01:08:40] [SPEAKER_00]: of areas there that look you know really similar to that or really similar to the

[01:08:44] [SPEAKER_00]: to the swiss alps or even the andes the um a young mountain range that's still very

[01:08:50] [SPEAKER_00]: pointy and um and tall you know so it's there are some scenes i couldn't necessarily

[01:08:55] [SPEAKER_00]: tell whether that was new zealand or not new zealand it was just the feeling overall

[01:08:58] [SPEAKER_00]: and also i'm very attuned to seeing um the different types of native trees that we have

[01:09:04] [SPEAKER_00]: here and it's really obvious to me in the previous season and also in all the lord of

[01:09:09] [SPEAKER_00]: the rings and hobbit movies that you're looking at new zealand forest and the types

[01:09:14] [SPEAKER_00]: of the ways the trees look and even that scene where aorund and galadriel are having their

[01:09:19] [SPEAKER_00]: car chase through the forest it just doesn't look like new zealand to my eyes i think

[01:09:23] [SPEAKER_00]: there's a lot of people who won't tell the difference and that's fine but yeah i mean i

[01:09:27] [SPEAKER_02]: think most people won't know and uh i thought i did think that the the car chase scene was

[01:09:35] [SPEAKER_02]: really beautiful i thought the the contrast of the sort of teal cloaks and the yellow

[01:09:44] [SPEAKER_02]: trees was was quite beautiful yeah i had one of those moments where i was like i want to live

[01:09:49] [SPEAKER_00]: in lothlorien like yeah i often have those moments yeah um i liked the call the callback

[01:10:02] [SPEAKER_00]: there's a couple of callbacks there um when gandalf was at saruman remember he says but

[01:10:07] [SPEAKER_00]: we still have time time enough to counter saruan if we act quickly and saruman says time

[01:10:12] [SPEAKER_00]: what time do you think we have and we saw that and this as well aorund says the same

[01:10:17] [SPEAKER_00]: to galadriel what time do you think you have and i think that was a direct callback which was kind

[01:10:23] [SPEAKER_00]: of cool to see i like these little easter eggs that they drop in i didn't notice that good

[01:10:27] [SPEAKER_00]: catch it's only because i've seen the movies about 500 times so no all the lines off by

[01:10:36] [SPEAKER_00]: that's pretty much all i have have you got any other notes a couple of little things um

[01:10:43] [SPEAKER_02]: the whole three brings balance concept that glad rail is resting so much faith on seems

[01:10:53] [SPEAKER_02]: faulty to me it's just as likely that there can be three opposing sides

[01:11:01] [SPEAKER_02]: than that there will be two opposing sides i don't i don't think that concept holds water

[01:11:09] [SPEAKER_02]: and i think maybe we're gonna see that it doesn't um and the other one is what do you think was

[01:11:17] [SPEAKER_02]: hallbrand's motivation for taking the king amulet thing from the old man was it oh i could

[01:11:24] [SPEAKER_02]: use this to pretend to be king or was it this old man told me that you know fates can

[01:11:32] [SPEAKER_02]: change and that's something i want to believe in for myself and my own possible redemption

[01:11:38] [SPEAKER_02]: what do you think was happening in his head right there i love the ambiguity of it because

[01:11:44] [SPEAKER_00]: i think that when he first saw it and he asked him about it and then he was sort of convinced

[01:11:48] [SPEAKER_00]: to go with them that was the side of me that believed that he was wanting redemption and

[01:11:54] [SPEAKER_00]: that he wanted to take it to choose a good path but the look that he gave the old man

[01:11:59] [SPEAKER_00]: when he decided not to lift the beam off him and rescue him but just to rip the

[01:12:04] [SPEAKER_00]: the amulet from him i was like that's him just taking advantage of that and being able to use

[01:12:09] [SPEAKER_00]: that later that's not him oh thank you so much for your wisdom and i'm sorry i can't save you

[01:12:16] [SPEAKER_00]: but i'll take this amulet to remember you by the look on his face was yep that's gonna

[01:12:21] [SPEAKER_02]: come in handy to me that's what i took from it yeah like saving you was never something i

[01:12:26] [SPEAKER_02]: would have even considered yeah for sure um and i just want to give a shout out to the

[01:12:32] [SPEAKER_02]: producers for giving us some women we had women smiths we had women shipwright students

[01:12:40] [SPEAKER_02]: we had some women elf guards and uh thank you just thank you yeah that was it was great i

[01:12:48] [SPEAKER_00]: loved that although i did think of you when um we had a few of those veiled elf women yeah

[01:12:53] [SPEAKER_02]: i don't get that why why why are they veiled and they never talk yeah but no it was cool i

[01:13:02] [SPEAKER_00]: know who came and told skogala that they hadn't found our ronde yet and their armor was really

[01:13:07] [SPEAKER_02]: cool as well yeah because he was so clever to hide under a bridge yeah yeah no one will see

[01:13:14] [SPEAKER_00]: him there we've we've scoured everywhere that water meets the land you didn't look under the

[01:13:19] [SPEAKER_00]: bridge and it's not that far away like you know the grey havens are in linden they're

[01:13:25] [SPEAKER_00]: that area yeah fantastic well we'll take a little break but stay with us there's heaps more to come

[01:13:53] [SPEAKER_00]: and we're back we have got a couple of news articles this week uh there is a huge amount

[01:14:00] [SPEAKER_00]: out there um with all the journalists getting their advanced copies their screeners of the

[01:14:06] [SPEAKER_00]: episodes they were able to do very generic reviews of the first few episodes of the

[01:14:12] [SPEAKER_00]: without saying much at all and i just try to avoid those ones there's not much point to it

[01:14:19] [SPEAKER_00]: and so i picked a couple of articles this week that were a little bit more

[01:14:24] [SPEAKER_00]: interesting i think so this first one here is from the new zealand herald

[01:14:27] [SPEAKER_00]: and the title is why new zealand will always be the heart of the rings of power so that's

[01:14:33] [SPEAKER_00]: an article that's close to my heart as you'll probably know entertainment editor jenny mortimer

[01:14:39] [SPEAKER_00]: sat down with charlie vicars who plays sauron makala kavanagh nori tyro mohefadden theo and

[01:14:46] [SPEAKER_00]: leon wadham kemon from the lord of the rings the rings of power cast in sydney to talk

[01:14:51] [SPEAKER_00]: about the upcoming season and what viewers can expect to see unfolding in middle earth this

[01:14:55] [SPEAKER_00]: time around season one of the hit show produced by amazon studios was filmed in new zealand

[01:15:00] [SPEAKER_00]: but production for season two was shifted to the united kingdom but the cast revealed that

[01:15:09] [SPEAKER_02]: what do you miss most about new zealand markella said the people charlie said the pies and the

[01:15:16] [SPEAKER_02]: people i miss being in auckland the life in auckland is very nice leon said the studio was

[01:15:22] [SPEAKER_02]: 30 minutes from my house london is so far from my house i really miss the crew i really miss

[01:15:29] [SPEAKER_02]: the team no question but we're blessed to have a great one in london too that's great i love

[01:15:34] [SPEAKER_00]: how charlie mentions the pies so if you're from the u.s you often would think of pie as

[01:15:38] [SPEAKER_00]: being sweet you know you guys have a lot of fruit pies and lemon pie and all like all the pumpkin

[01:15:43] [SPEAKER_00]: pie all that stuff pies in new zealand you're referring to the meat pie so the absolute

[01:15:47] [SPEAKER_00]: classic is the mince and cheese pie so if you ever get to come to new zealand please

[01:15:52] [SPEAKER_00]: try them out they are awesome she goes on to ask leon you were born and raised in

[01:15:58] [SPEAKER_00]: aotearoa but moved to london for the second season what was it like shifting production from

[01:16:02] [SPEAKER_00]: your home base leon says it was bananas because it never crossed my mind that was

[01:16:07] [SPEAKER_00]: a possibility what was heartening was getting to london and all of these sets and costumes that

[01:16:11] [SPEAKER_00]: had been made by incredible crafts people in new zealand were still there we were still working

[01:16:15] [SPEAKER_00]: with these things to walk into a studio i'd never seen before and still see stuff that

[01:16:20] [SPEAKER_02]: i remember from home that was a great way to start oh that's wonderful she asks

[01:16:26] [SPEAKER_02]: she goes on to say the rings of power is an intense and at times dark show did the cast

[01:16:31] [SPEAKER_02]: still manage to make room to enjoy funny moments on set charlie says i worked a lot with charlie

[01:16:38] [SPEAKER_02]: edwards who plays kella brimbor and he's hilarious unintentionally hilarious a lot of the time as

[01:16:44] [SPEAKER_02]: well he trips over a lot never really sits still we have these robes that are really

[01:16:49] [SPEAKER_02]: long and elves aren't allowed to look down there's a very strict set of rules you have to

[01:16:53] [SPEAKER_02]: abide by if you're an elf you have to sit up straight you just have to be elvin so we can't

[01:17:00] [SPEAKER_02]: where we're going a lot of the time because the studios are dark and you can never look at your

[01:17:04] [SPEAKER_02]: feet he was falling downstairs he didn't actually fall down the stairs but yeah he

[01:17:10] [SPEAKER_02]: does a lot of fun things that's a little bit mean yeah i do like how he says you can't you

[01:17:18] [SPEAKER_00]: can't tell without seeing it in rishan down but when he says if you're an elf you have to

[01:17:22] [SPEAKER_00]: just be elvin he doesn't mean elvin as an e l v e n he's saying elvin as an elving you've

[01:17:28] [SPEAKER_00]: to be elving which i thought was quite cool love that oh elves be elving i get it yeah elves

[01:17:36] [SPEAKER_00]: be elvin yeah that's kind of cool um elves gonna elve uh did any of you manage to steal anything

[01:17:44] [SPEAKER_00]: from the set to keep as memorabilia tyro i've got an ear of our on dear from season one i

[01:17:50] [SPEAKER_00]: think it's sitting in my mom's wardrobe markella says how did that even happen and tyro said

[01:17:55] [SPEAKER_00]: i think he just ripped it off and went here you go buddy what a weird thing to keep

[01:18:02] [SPEAKER_02]: our second article comes from billboard.com and it's about the music from the rings of power

[01:18:08] [SPEAKER_02]: season two for those working behind the scenes amazon's sprawling stunning and spendy fantasy

[01:18:14] [SPEAKER_02]: series the lord of the rings the rings of power is marked by a secrecy not unlike the

[01:18:24] [SPEAKER_02]: i would come home after working for 12 hours and my wife would go how's it going and i'd go the

[01:18:31] [SPEAKER_02]: project is going okay recalls composer bear mccreary of the show's first season my daughter

[01:18:36] [SPEAKER_02]: was seven at the time she would have gone to school and said it the secrecy was crazy

[01:18:42] [SPEAKER_02]: the second season which premieres on prime video on august 29th was a similarly stealthy

[01:18:47] [SPEAKER_02]: production when woodwind and brass players gathered at london's air studios lindhurst

[01:18:52] [SPEAKER_02]: a deconsecrated victorian church that producer george martin turned into a top-notch recording

[01:18:58] [SPEAKER_02]: facility in 1992 in late april to record part of its score the tv show's name was markedly

[01:19:04] [SPEAKER_02]: absent from the sheet music even though there's a code name they know when they see my name

[01:19:10] [SPEAKER_02]: and hear these tunes admits mccreary who writes every musical cue for the show save

[01:19:14] [SPEAKER_02]: howard shaw's opening theme it feels like coming back to school after a summer off and

[01:19:19] [SPEAKER_00]: friends the article continues though mccreary's dramatic nuanced score fills the hexagonal high

[01:19:26] [SPEAKER_00]: ceilinged air studios with a tense grandeur he's aware that most viewers will experience it in an

[01:19:31] [SPEAKER_00]: entirely different setting with that in mind he sometimes spins the rings of power mixes on

[01:19:36] [SPEAKER_00]: his cell phone to ensure the most salient melodic elements come through clearly i want

[01:19:40] [SPEAKER_00]: to make sure that the show and score sounds good even in a terrible listening environment

[01:19:44] [SPEAKER_00]: thank you so cognizant of yeah it's really nice because it's true a lot of people do

[01:19:49] [SPEAKER_02]: we don't all have like perfect surround sound setups no that's it and a lot of people watch

[01:19:57] [SPEAKER_00]: tv shows on their computer now even on their phone or ipad so yeah i think it's great

[01:20:02] [SPEAKER_00]: he's also cognizant of social media responses to his score and was pleased when a few savvy

[01:20:06] [SPEAKER_00]: fans figured out that his theme for hellbrand is the theme for the perfidious sauron played

[01:20:11] [SPEAKER_00]: backwards spoiler the two were revealed to be one and the same in the season one finale yeah if

[01:20:15] [SPEAKER_00]: you're not up to speed with that then yeah you listen to the wrong podcast i like to encode

[01:20:22] [SPEAKER_00]: messages into the score says mccreary who reveals that he's burying the musical easter

[01:20:26] [SPEAKER_00]: eggs even deeper on season two now that i know people are digging i can be even more subtle

[01:20:31] [SPEAKER_00]: that's really cool i love that and there was some more information in the article just about

[01:20:35] [SPEAKER_00]: some of the locations that we haven't seen before seen yet so there's some stuff that he

[01:20:39] [SPEAKER_00]: on about rune so definitely recommend reading the rest of that article if you're interested

[01:20:44] [SPEAKER_00]: and we'll put the link for that in the show notes as well brilliant i'm sure there'll be

[01:20:49] [SPEAKER_00]: more news coming through as we um as we move through the episodes uh we didn't get any

[01:20:54] [SPEAKER_00]: listener feedback um yet for this episode because uh literally just screened last night

[01:21:01] [SPEAKER_00]: we're recording a little bit earlier than usual um so please feel free if you'd like to leave

[01:21:06] [SPEAKER_00]: feedback for season four episode one um we will play it on the next recording and

[01:21:12] [SPEAKER_00]: episode two as well in episode three if you watch them all at once and you just want to

[01:21:17] [SPEAKER_00]: leave some general feedback about all three please go ahead and send that in and just make

[01:21:21] [SPEAKER_00]: sure that you let us know it's about the first three episodes we can then read that out

[01:21:26] [SPEAKER_00]: too we have separate facebook posts for each episode on all of our facebook pages so

[01:21:31] [SPEAKER_02]: just go ahead and leave what you like there and don't forget we love voicemails so please

[01:21:39] [SPEAKER_02]: feel free to send us one of those with your thoughts on the show or any questions that you

[01:21:45] [SPEAKER_02]: might have for us about something we've talked about on here that would be fantastic and to

[01:21:50] [SPEAKER_00]: find all that contact information you can go to podcastica.com you can send the voicemails

[01:21:55] [SPEAKER_00]: directly from the website there or we you can easily record into a voice memo on your

[01:22:03] [SPEAKER_00]: smartphone and then just email that through to talk at podcastica.com and we're looking

[01:22:08] [SPEAKER_00]: forward to and excited about all of your feedback for these first few episodes and

[01:22:14] [SPEAKER_02]: while you're over there at podcastica.com you should check out some other podcastica shows we

[01:22:20] [SPEAKER_02]: have so much great content on podcastica to take a look at we cover a wide variety of shows

[01:22:29] [SPEAKER_02]: there's science fiction there's horror there's comedies there's a lot of marvel coverage

[01:22:37] [SPEAKER_02]: and we sometimes cover movies sometimes mini series there's just something for everybody

[01:22:44] [SPEAKER_02]: and I personally am very devoted to the cast of us and they're doing a re-watch of The Walking Dead

[01:22:53] [SPEAKER_00]: right now and that's been really fun to listen to. Yeah it's fun doing all these shows that are

[01:22:58] [SPEAKER_00]: sort of re-watches because you can go back and see and then they're quite good because

[01:23:01] [SPEAKER_00]: you can kind of dip into them and out of them as you like as well which is which is

[01:23:05] [SPEAKER_00]: really fun. The website there at podcastica.com is really easy to navigate around and there's

[01:23:10] [SPEAKER_00]: pictures of all of the different podcasts that we cover and different shows that we cover so

[01:23:14] [SPEAKER_00]: go ahead and have a look at that and for now what we're going to do is we are going to

[01:23:20] [SPEAKER_00]: have a chat about some things that might be a little bit spoilery so if you haven't listened

[01:23:25] [SPEAKER_00]: to us before this is our section that we call Galadriel's Mirror and this is where

[01:23:29] [SPEAKER_00]: we're going to discuss how the show compares with the book and some of the things that might

[01:23:33] [SPEAKER_00]: we think might happen next based on the source material so if you do not want to be spoiled

[01:23:38] [SPEAKER_00]: just finish now and we will catch you next time otherwise please stay with us for Galadriel's Mirror.

[01:23:45] [SPEAKER_01]: Will you look into the mirror? What will I see? Things that were,

[01:23:53] [SPEAKER_00]: things that are, and some things that have not yet come to pass.

[01:24:01] [SPEAKER_00]: All right well here we are in Galadriel's Mirror and yeah there's a little bit to talk

[01:24:07] [SPEAKER_00]: about this time. We were talking before about Elrond being against, very against the rings

[01:24:13] [SPEAKER_00]: even after they look like they're going to be saving their elves and I think you know part

[01:24:19] [SPEAKER_00]: of this is that you do have to create a little bit of tension in the story between different

[01:24:24] [SPEAKER_00]: people with different opinions on things. He's kind of right so like he even though it's true

[01:24:33] [SPEAKER_00]: that Sauron didn't make the rings and so he doesn't have influence over them.

[01:24:37] [SPEAKER_00]: He is connected to them so later on we know that when he makes the one ring when he puts the ring

[01:24:42] [SPEAKER_00]: on he becomes aware of the presence of the other three and so at that point the elven ring

[01:24:48] [SPEAKER_00]: bearers take them off and they hide them so Elrond does have a point I think that there's

[01:24:53] [SPEAKER_00]: you know Sauron is going to have something to do with them. What did you think about

[01:24:58] [SPEAKER_00]: Penny? Did you think that was sort of? I thought he was making very good points

[01:25:05] [SPEAKER_02]: about even if Sauron never touched the rings that they don't know what his larger plan is

[01:25:13] [SPEAKER_02]: and how using the rings might be fitting into Sauron's plan and you know he decides he

[01:25:21] [SPEAKER_02]: wants to destroy the rings but I think at first when he first goes to the king

[01:25:26] [SPEAKER_02]: that he just wants everybody to like take a breath and think about it seriously and have

[01:25:32] [SPEAKER_02]: a conversation and it's only when he sees that the king and Galadriel are so determined to put

[01:25:37] [SPEAKER_02]: those rings on that he goes to Cirdan and says they need to be destroyed. I'm not convinced

[01:25:44] [SPEAKER_02]: that before that he was 100% sure we can't use the rings. I think their attraction to

[01:25:52] [SPEAKER_00]: convince him. Yeah I agree and again it's that visual representation isn't it that you see them

[01:25:59] [SPEAKER_00]: looking greedy and then you have to sort of see the reaction to that and that there's someone

[01:26:02] [SPEAKER_00]: opposed to it. A little bit different from the source material and you know initially in

[01:26:11] [SPEAKER_00]: the books Galadriel didn't trust Annatar when Annatar comes in his form so we know from the

[01:26:17] [SPEAKER_00]: books that Sauron shows up to the elves to help them make the rings in the form of Annatar

[01:26:22] [SPEAKER_00]: this elven looking dude. Galadriel didn't trust him in that form so they've gone quite a different

[01:26:29] [SPEAKER_00]: route here with her on that. Also in the book Cirdan advised against the creation of the rings

[01:26:36] [SPEAKER_00]: of power so that fits with him kind of wanting to destroy them after they've been created but

[01:26:42] [SPEAKER_00]: we don't meet him before these three rings are created so he advised against the rings.

[01:26:48] [SPEAKER_02]: It doesn't seem like he knew about them until after.

[01:26:52] [SPEAKER_00]: No no and in the book also he's sort of like Galadriel he their weariness and their kind of

[01:27:03] [SPEAKER_00]: counsel of let's not do this went unheeded because of the ambition of the smiths the

[01:27:10] [SPEAKER_00]: elven smiths was too high so Calabrian Bor and the smiths were like yeah now we're going to

[01:27:18] [SPEAKER_00]: then later when the three rings were hidden Calabrian Bor basically gave the ring to Cirdan

[01:27:26] [SPEAKER_00]: so that's when he accepted Narya so that's different from in the show where it's pretty

[01:27:32] [SPEAKER_00]: much Gil-galad handing them out. It was Calabrian Bor who gave one.

[01:27:38] [SPEAKER_02]: And Cirdan took one for himself he just was like yeah this one's for me.

[01:27:42] [SPEAKER_00]: Well that's it true yeah he just he already had it on he was the first to wear the bling

[01:27:48] [SPEAKER_00]: and that all happened really close to the time in the book where Sauron basically comes out of

[01:27:56] [SPEAKER_00]: hiding and destroys Eregion so he's he forges the one ring he destroys Eregion and he invaded

[01:28:06] [SPEAKER_00]: the rest of Eriador as well that Holberg region into the west but he didn't attempt to take

[01:28:11] [SPEAKER_00]: the Greyhavens or Linden and that's because he felt like they were too strong because they had

[01:28:16] [SPEAKER_00]: the help of the new Menorians so that's all stuff that we're probably going to see later on

[01:28:20] [SPEAKER_00]: but just a little bit of interesting history about that as well.

[01:28:24] [SPEAKER_00]: So we're gonna we're gonna see a lot of stuff with Sauron slash Halbrand slash Anatar so we

[01:28:32] [SPEAKER_00]: see him coming back there at the end of the of the season and like we speculated last

[01:28:36] [SPEAKER_00]: week how are we going to see this portrayed so we know that Anatar Sauron in fair form

[01:28:44] [SPEAKER_00]: comes to Eregion he gets in with the Elven smiths and he makes the rings so in the

[01:28:50] [SPEAKER_00]: lore he makes a seven and the nine first then the elves make the three in secret after that

[01:28:56] [SPEAKER_00]: and then he goes and makes the one ring I'm still nervous that they're going to mess with

[01:29:00] [SPEAKER_00]: order of that yeah especially now that we see how brands come back and that we see

[01:29:05] [SPEAKER_00]: we've seen him we've sort of seen his backstory I'm a little heartened by your point that

[01:29:10] [SPEAKER_00]: there's more time than we think between the cart and the raft and so what I am still holding

[01:29:17] [SPEAKER_00]: out hope for is that that was when he became Anatar and went to Eregion and got in with

[01:29:24] [SPEAKER_00]: with Calabranbor the side that is making me not believe that is that they've suddenly

[01:29:28] [SPEAKER_00]: got this new forge or why are they going to have this new forge if they've already made the three

[01:29:32] [SPEAKER_00]: unless it's going to lead to them making the seven and the nine after it and so I don't have

[01:29:37] [SPEAKER_00]: a huge amount of hope that they're going to stick to the order of the rings and it does

[01:29:40] [SPEAKER_00]: disappoint me a little bit I think it's going to upset quite a lot of fans but as long as

[01:29:45] [SPEAKER_00]: they can do it in a way that makes sense for this story then I'm open to it you know I've

[01:29:51] [SPEAKER_00]: got a bit more as well about Sauron's backstory too I'm going to go back to some lore again

[01:29:57] [SPEAKER_00]: now so you remember in the Lord of the Rings when they're out on the road and Aragorn is singing

[01:30:03] [SPEAKER_00]: that song and Frodo asks him about it Frodo can't sleep and he hears Aragorn singing there by the

[01:30:07] [SPEAKER_00]: swamp and Aragorn tells him that it's the lay of Luthien an elf maiden who fell in love with

[01:30:13] [SPEAKER_00]: a mortal man and Frodo says what happened to her and Aragorn says she died and that's pretty

[01:30:19] [SPEAKER_00]: much it that's all we get but I really wanted to encourage people if you read nothing

[01:30:25] [SPEAKER_00]: else of the Silmarillion because the first part can be quite hard to get into the tale of Beren and

[01:30:30] [SPEAKER_00]: Luthien which is a chapter in the Silmarillion and it's also available as a separate book

[01:30:34] [SPEAKER_00]: it's really really cool there's so much great stuff that Luthien does

[01:30:39] [SPEAKER_00]: including rescuing her lover Beren and defeating Sauron at one point as well which is

[01:30:45] [SPEAKER_00]: which is super super cool there is actually a little bit that I want to read you out of

[01:30:49] [SPEAKER_00]: the Silmarillion out of that part of the tale that gives you a wee bit of a background

[01:30:55] [SPEAKER_00]: to Luthien and to Sauron in the book so again we get a lot of simplification in the TV show

[01:31:02] [SPEAKER_00]: where you have a lot of then Morgoth was defeated you know and you hear this one line

[01:31:08] [SPEAKER_00]: well in the book it's years and years of different battles and then he did this and

[01:31:11] [SPEAKER_00]: then they did this and then they destroyed this area and then they fixed this area there's a

[01:31:15] [SPEAKER_00]: lot of stuff simplified for the show but in this one particular part Beren and Luthien

[01:31:22] [SPEAKER_00]: have gone to go and find Morgoth and find the crown with the Silmarils in it and then this

[01:31:28] [SPEAKER_00]: happens Sauron sprang upon Luthien she swooned before the menace of the foul spirit in his

[01:31:33] [SPEAKER_00]: eyes and the foul vapor of his breath but even as he came falling she cast a fold of her dark

[01:31:39] [SPEAKER_00]: cloak before his eyes and he stumbled for a fleeting drowsiness came upon him then Hoan

[01:31:44] [SPEAKER_00]: sprang and side note Hoan is this kind of awesome wolf creature who's a servant of the

[01:31:52] [SPEAKER_00]: there befell the battle of her one and wolf Sauron and the howls and banging echoed in the

[01:31:57] [SPEAKER_00]: halls and the watches on the walls of Eredwether and across the valley heard it afar and were

[01:32:02] [SPEAKER_00]: dismayed but no wizardry nor spell neither fang nor venom nor devil's art nor beast strength

[01:32:07] [SPEAKER_00]: could overthrow one of Elinor and he took his foe by the throat and pinned him down

[01:32:12] [SPEAKER_00]: then Sauron shifted shape from wolf to serpent and from monster to his own accustomed form

[01:32:17] [SPEAKER_00]: but he could not elude the group of one without forsaking his body and utterly

[01:32:21] [SPEAKER_00]: ere his foul spirit left its dark house Luthien came to him and said that he should be stripped

[01:32:26] [SPEAKER_00]: of his raiment of flesh and his ghost to be sent quaking back to Morgoth and she said

[01:32:31] [SPEAKER_00]: there everlastingly thy naked self shall endure the torment of his scorn pierced by his eyes

[01:32:36] [SPEAKER_00]: unless thou yield to me the mastery of thy tower then Sauron yielded himself and

[01:32:42] [SPEAKER_00]: Luthien took the mastery of the island all that was there and Hoan released him and

[01:32:46] [SPEAKER_00]: immediately he took the form of a vampire great as a dark cloud across the moon and

[01:32:51] [SPEAKER_00]: he fled dripping blood from his throat upon the trees and he came to Tuana Fuin and

[01:32:56] [SPEAKER_00]: dwelt there filling it with horror.

[01:32:58] [SPEAKER_00]: Oh that's beautiful.

[01:32:59] [SPEAKER_00]: That's the kind of goodness you get in those stories and so yeah you've got Luthien

[01:33:05] [SPEAKER_00]: there defeating Sauron at one point and then after that he didn't play a lot of

[01:33:10] [SPEAKER_00]: part in the events of the rest of the first age so maybe he's hiding from Morgoth's

[01:33:15] [SPEAKER_00]: or wrath and then after Morgoth is defeated and then taken to Valinor in chains that's

[01:33:23] [SPEAKER_00]: when Sauron seemed to repent and kind of pleaded for mercy.

[01:33:28] [SPEAKER_00]: He asked Aeonwe who was the most powerful mire who led the Valar in that war and he

[01:33:34] [SPEAKER_00]: asked him for mercy and potentially he might have just only been daunted by the fact

[01:33:39] [SPEAKER_00]: that they'd won but at the same time he was unwilling to return for judgment so

[01:33:45] [SPEAKER_00]: he said give me mercy and they said well yeah come to Valinor and we'll judge you

[01:33:48] [SPEAKER_00]: and he said oh no I don't really want to be judged and so he ran off and that's

[01:33:51] [SPEAKER_00]: when he hid in Middle-earth.

[01:33:53] [SPEAKER_00]: That's what Sauron is like and so then after he remained hidden for about five

[01:33:58] [SPEAKER_00]: centuries that's when he started to reveal himself again and around sort of that

[01:34:04] [SPEAKER_00]: thousand years into the second age he'd gathered power and he established Mordor

[01:34:08] [SPEAKER_00]: and began to build the dark tower near Mount Doom and that's when he gathered

[01:34:13] [SPEAKER_00]: the orcs and the trolls and all these nasty creatures.

[01:34:16] [SPEAKER_00]: He corrupted a various races of men as well like the Easterlings and the Harajrim

[01:34:21] [SPEAKER_00]: and this passion that he had for order had led him to this desire he wanted to be a god

[01:34:26] [SPEAKER_00]: king he wanted to wield absolute temporal power over the whole world and so this is when he

[01:34:32] [SPEAKER_00]: gets his armies different from the show but of course he also did realize that men were

[01:34:37] [SPEAKER_00]: easier to sway than other peoples and so he first of all sought to bring the

[01:34:43] [SPEAKER_00]: elves into his service because they're more powerful than men so he thought well

[01:34:46] [SPEAKER_00]: men are easy to get on my side but I also need these elves because they are the bomb.

[01:34:50] [SPEAKER_00]: So that's when he put on his fair face called himself Anatar the lord of gifts

[01:34:55] [SPEAKER_00]: and then he assumed the guise of an emissary of the Valar so he basically comes along as

[01:35:01] [SPEAKER_00]: Anatar and says the Valar sent me to help you and yeah exactly so yeah he's pretty

[01:35:13] [SPEAKER_00]: quite a departure on the show from the books. This whole Halbrand side quest completely different

[01:35:18] [SPEAKER_00]: and what we're seeing here when he shows up at the end it's the exact opposite of what we

[01:35:23] [SPEAKER_00]: thought was going to happen you know Sauron's come back to Eregion in Halbrand form so

[01:35:29] [SPEAKER_00]: what's going to happen next? Part of me wonders if showing us the other form of

[01:35:33] [SPEAKER_00]: Sauron at the start is a vehicle for showing that we're going to see him differently

[01:35:40] [SPEAKER_00]: to the way Kalabrinbor sees him so when Kalabrinbor sees Anatar are we seeing the

[01:35:48] [SPEAKER_00]: sort of Charlie Vickers and the blonde wig version but is Kalabrinbor going to see

[01:35:52] [SPEAKER_00]: someone different? And the question still remains is this going to happen now or is this going

[01:35:58] [SPEAKER_00]: to happen in flashback so is it going to be that Anatar was already there all along

[01:36:05] [SPEAKER_00]: and Kalabrinbor has been brainwashed pretty much.

[01:36:09] [SPEAKER_00]: Have you got any different thoughts on that from when we last discussed it?

[01:36:13] [SPEAKER_02]: The only so I was pretty convinced of the Anatar story happened during that time between the

[01:36:22] [SPEAKER_02]: and the raft but there have been some promotional photos of Sauron in his Anatar form

[01:36:34] [SPEAKER_02]: with what looks like the destruction of Eregion behind him and since Eregion isn't destroyed yet

[01:36:43] [SPEAKER_02]: it follows that that's going to happen after what we've just seen so I don't know what to

[01:36:50] [SPEAKER_02]: think. I'm with you that I hope they don't switch the order around of things from how

[01:36:56] [SPEAKER_02]: they were in the book I agree that a lot of fans would be pretty upset by that by such

[01:37:01] [SPEAKER_02]: a big change but I'm willing to keep an open mind about it. Yeah I'm open to it if they

[01:37:07] [SPEAKER_00]: explain it well and what we see now is we don't know how that's going to be explained.

[01:37:14] [SPEAKER_00]: My big questions are Kalabrinbor can see Halbrand at the gate and he's been even

[01:37:18] [SPEAKER_00]: he doesn't know he's Sauron yet he's been told not to trust him so what's going to happen with

[01:37:23] [SPEAKER_00]: that and so yeah it's it's going to be interesting to see what happens with that.

[01:37:32] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah and yeah we're in a few minutes when we get to watch episode two then it's gonna be all

[01:37:36] [SPEAKER_00]: good. I can't wait I'm so excited. Yeah fantastic was there anything else that you

[01:37:42] [SPEAKER_02]: had thought of? What are the names of the three rings the elf rings?

[01:37:47] [SPEAKER_00]: So we've got Nenya, Narya and Vilya and I sometimes forget which ones are which but Narya is

[01:37:57] [SPEAKER_00]: the ring of fire that's the one the red one that Kurdan gets and the other two I forget

[01:38:03] [SPEAKER_02]: I've got it written down somewhere. I think Nenya is the one that Galadriel wears.

[01:38:10] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah there are so many names and words to remember in this mythology that it's easy to

[01:38:18] [SPEAKER_00]: lose track. It's quite good to sort of have yeah all the information at your fingertips and

[01:38:23] [SPEAKER_00]: again it's it's we'll put the the links in the show notes for all of the places that you

[01:38:28] [SPEAKER_00]: can go to look it up but I think we're going to get some more detail around that as well

[01:38:32] [SPEAKER_00]: and you know we're going to get to see some more rings I think pretty soon

[01:38:35] [SPEAKER_00]: in the next um in the next couple episodes. I think you're right.

[01:38:39] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah was there anything else spoilery that you had Penny? That's everything I've got covered.

[01:38:45] [SPEAKER_02]: I just want to keep an eye on the orc origins. I know that it was an aspect of this world

[01:38:55] [SPEAKER_02]: that troubled Tolkien and that he changed his mind about often and that it's very unsettled

[01:39:02] [SPEAKER_02]: how orcs were created whether they are corrupted beings or original beings or redeemable

[01:39:09] [SPEAKER_02]: or pure evil and I am really hoping that we get more information about that.

[01:39:17] [SPEAKER_02]: I find that topic really interesting and I'm hoping that we get a lot more of it. I think

[01:39:22] [SPEAKER_02]: that's the entire purpose of the creation of the Adar storyline. Yeah I hope we get some

[01:39:28] [SPEAKER_00]: more on that too and it is one of those things where Tolkien changed his mind a few times about

[01:39:33] [SPEAKER_00]: the origins and it's really interesting to read not just the Simrulean but the other

[01:39:41] [SPEAKER_00]: histories and stories of Middle-earth that you can go into where a lot of those books are

[01:39:47] [SPEAKER_00]: they're edited by Christopher Tolkien, Tolkien's son and he would often say okay I found this

[01:39:54] [SPEAKER_00]: piece of paper from my dad who said this and then I found this other writing and then but

[01:39:57] [SPEAKER_00]: he said this and then he changed his mind right before he died to this other thing so it is quite

[01:40:02] [SPEAKER_00]: cool to see the evolution of those stories and again as one of those reminders that Tolkien sort

[01:40:07] [SPEAKER_00]: of felt that he was the conduit for these stories. It wasn't necessarily that I've changed

[01:40:11] [SPEAKER_00]: my mind when I made this stuff up, it was perhaps this could have actually happened and

[01:40:15] [SPEAKER_00]: this could have actually happened and he treated it as though it was history and he

[01:40:18] [SPEAKER_00]: was delving into it and I really like that. I think that's really cool.

[01:40:28] [SPEAKER_00]: All right well I think that's everything for this week and we're going to run away and

[01:40:33] [SPEAKER_00]: instantly watch episode two so please join us next time. That's our show for today.

[01:40:39] [SPEAKER_00]: Thanks for listening everyone. We will see you again very soon in Middle-earth.

[01:40:45] [SPEAKER_00]: It is strange how that which is left behind can be the heaviest burden to carry.

[01:40:53] [SPEAKER_00]: Elves gonna elve!