21. "Halls of Stone" (S2E5)

[00:00:02] AHH!

[00:00:03] Hmm?

[00:00:04] Hmm?

[00:00:04] And get to the door.

[00:00:06] Get to those who dwell above.

[00:00:08] Slaves to the Sun.

[00:00:13] Change to a ceaseless rhythm of waking and sleep.

[00:00:30] Cazak doom.

[00:00:32] We are free of its turn.

[00:00:41] We bring the sun to us.

[00:00:46] At last.

[00:00:48] It is daybreak once more.

[00:00:51] And our mountain.

[00:01:39] Greatings, guestlet elves, treasureless daughters,

[00:01:42] Shrine destroying sons and fiery rumblings from the deep.

[00:01:45] Welcome to our podcast. I'm Annwen.

[00:01:48] And I'm Penny.

[00:01:49] And I'm Veronica.

[00:01:51] And this is The Cast of The Rings episode 21.

[00:01:55] In this episode we're going to be covering season 2 episode 5 of The Rings of Power.

[00:02:00] Tiedled a halls of stone.

[00:02:03] And we are thrilled to welcome you Veronica.

[00:02:05] Thank you so much for coming on and gisting with us.

[00:02:08] Thanks for having me.

[00:02:09] I'm really excited to be here and talk about all the things.

[00:02:13] Lord of The Rings with you guys.

[00:02:15] So what we normally do when we have a guest is to start out with asking you.

[00:02:19] What your history is worth at all the rings.

[00:02:21] Your first memory of it.

[00:02:23] Books, movies, any of it.

[00:02:25] And yeah.

[00:02:26] How did you first come to Tolkien?

[00:02:28] Yeah.

[00:02:28] So you know, growing up we did have that sort of old old cartoon of the Hobbit on our VCR shelf.

[00:02:37] So we did have that.

[00:02:39] But I feel like that's something that like it didn't really like click with me until I found the Hobbit in the school library.

[00:02:46] And I read that book over and over again.

[00:02:49] I remember just time my mom like it's not just a story mom like he created this whole world.

[00:02:54] And there's languages and just being enamored.

[00:02:56] And this is before easy access to the internet and things.

[00:03:02] And so at that time I only knew about the Hobbit and I probably read it through over 20 times before one day I'm in the school library.

[00:03:09] And I stumble across the three volumes of Lord of The Rings.

[00:03:13] And I could have fainted.

[00:03:15] I pick it up and realize it's another story about more Hobbits.

[00:03:20] And I could have cried.

[00:03:22] I checked out the first book on a Friday.

[00:03:26] And you know those books.

[00:03:28] It's just a cliffhanger.

[00:03:30] It's one book, you know it should not be three books.

[00:03:33] And I blasted through it and finished it on like Saturday night.

[00:03:37] And then I had to wait a whole full weekend Sunday until I could get to school on Monday and check out the next two books in this series.

[00:03:46] And I took both the next two because I knew was not going to be in this position again.

[00:03:51] Yeah, I just fell in love with them and could not convince anyone in my family to read them even though it was all I talked about,

[00:03:59] Incessantly probably all from late elementary into middle school until the movies came out.

[00:04:06] And then finally my parents watched it and were like, Oh, these are amazing.

[00:04:09] Okay, we'll read the books.

[00:04:11] A little a little irritated.

[00:04:14] But finally happy to have more people sort of interested in talking about it.

[00:04:21] So yeah, they hold a really, really special place in my heart and look at them very, very fondly.

[00:04:27] And I'm just thrilled that we are seeing another iteration of Tolkien on the screen fantastic.

[00:04:35] That's brilliant.

[00:04:36] And what do you think so far of the rings of power?

[00:04:38] You know, I like it.

[00:04:41] It's hard.

[00:04:42] I've had a hard time knowing how to recommend it to people because I do have such a deep deep love for the world that Tolkien has created that to me.

[00:04:53] There's it would have to be pretty wrong for me not to be enjoying it on screen.

[00:04:58] And so I'm like incredibly biased and I'm incredibly huge fan of it.

[00:05:02] I think the show has been beautiful.

[00:05:04] I've been really enjoying the story.

[00:05:07] I think to me if I step back and had to give a critique, I think it's just a difficult.

[00:05:15] Difficult thing to portray because there's so much deep lore.

[00:05:20] And so they're I think they're constantly towing the line between making it approachable and engaging for the light fan.

[00:05:28] Without making the deep fans that know the lore and an out very upset because of the changes they're making.

[00:05:36] And so I think it's a very, I think it's a big challenge like I don't know what the answer would be.

[00:05:42] I think the only thing I think they could probably have done to ease some of that for the more casual fans would be to get rid of a few of the mysteries.

[00:05:52] Like I feel like they try to make everything a mystery.

[00:05:56] I mean we've we're now halfway into season two and we still don't know.

[00:06:00] I mean I think on this podcast at least everyone's an agreement that it is gammed off, but you know things like that like the stranger sort of dragging out as mystery for so long and so many of the characters being mysterious.

[00:06:14] I think is a little hard.

[00:06:18] I'm thankful for this podcast because it keeps me straight on it and so I wonder if that's hurting some of the more casual fans of Tolkien from being able to engage in the show just because it's a lot to follow.

[00:06:32] But I think it's beautiful and fun and the last episode got me between Tom Bombadil and the ends and Barrow White.

[00:06:41] And I felt like they hit all the things that had been missed in previous iterations of these things on screen and so yeah I love it.

[00:06:50] I think it's beautiful and I hope they get all five seasons is that what they had initially planned for.

[00:06:57] Yeah that's right yeah five seasons and I believe that confirmed season three now, but I love what you say about that fine line that they're walking because I think that's true.

[00:07:08] I think that they are assuming that probably the majority of people who are watching or at least half have seen the pedagex and movies.

[00:07:17] There'll be aware that there'll be some people who haven't seen them and then there's this other section of people who have read all the books and know all the lore and all this sort of stuff and I think that they're getting that just right in terms of.

[00:07:30] I think that's the thing that they're dropping in hints that they know the lore, that they're paying attention to it and paying tribute to it is really satisfying for people who do know it.

[00:07:39] And not to annoying hopefully for people who don't know it so I think the balance is right there but I definitely agree with what you're saying about the mystery box especially in the first season.

[00:07:48] I think the mystery of Hellbrand's Souron was cool like it was awesome and I know a lot of people didn't get that and we're shocked which was cool.

[00:07:54] I think that was one that made sense and felt like an appropriate payoff but some of, I don't know, I feel like some of the other things like it would be helpful if I think they made it slightly less mysterious or made it not last so long until we get the answer.

[00:08:10] I agree, the stranger not knowing his own identity has like we get it, it's not like can we please get some resolution on that story and move on.

[00:08:24] Yeah, I'm guessing well, I kind of know I guess because it's journalists who've seen up to episode 7 and they're saying that we are going to find out since stuff so that's good but yeah I don't think they should have waited till the end of season 2 for sure.

[00:08:38] It's just it's been a little much.

[00:08:41] Yeah. All right so for this episode we've got halls of stone and yeah I guess a lot happened in terms of just sort of plot points and characters rather than all those new characters we got introduced to last last episode, this was a lot about moving this story forward towards the kind of climax.

[00:09:01] So what were your thoughts for I'm a character in terms of what stood out for you the most and what do you want to start talking about.

[00:09:09] You know I think what stood out for me the most was how they're trickling in this episode we see and I won't go into details because we're going to hit on it as we go but trickling in we got to see a lot of new powers of the rings and so for me that was one of the themes that stuck out throughout this episode was getting new insight into what these rings can do and the powers they wield over.

[00:09:33] The world but also the people involved with them and so I think that being said where I would start is just literally in the halls of stone.

[00:09:44] So let's go maybe talk about King Duren and I think that's one of the examples that we have of both sides of these rings of power both giving him an ability to do something that at least on the surface is really helpful to his people and.

[00:10:04] You know being able to be that in tune to the mountain that he was able to do very directed digs to get their light back.

[00:10:12] It is a pretty good thing right but we still have few drawbacks this episode to including that there seems to be some blind spots that he has.

[00:10:24] We saw Disa encounter a threatening roar from the depths and try to get King Duren to listen and he seems unwilling to accept that he could have a blind spot.

[00:10:38] He seems so certain that the ring has given him full insight into his mountain and everything that is under it and that they are safe because of it.

[00:10:49] And so that was concerning and then also I think the other thing that we saw with King Duren is the hold that this ring already has on him and.

[00:11:01] First thing that we see is just that he accuses is it, Narvee of, did you take the ring like where is that he's misplaced it's right in front of him but it was almost that you know that billbow moment of like give me the ring.

[00:11:15] And so I thought that was interesting and then also you know we saw him increasingly sinking into greed this episode and I'd written in my notes at first is this just the typical like.

[00:11:28] Dwarf getting overwhelmed by he now can suddenly see all the riches that he's sitting on top of us he getting that and at one point in the episode prince Durin comments like greed is not something my father has struggled with before and so that to me indicated again like this is another piece of the ring taking hold of him in a negative direction.

[00:11:51] I started it was interesting and concerning to see all that happening on screen.

[00:11:58] And we've talked about it before with the three rings and it's actually true of the Dwarven rings as well that it pretty much enhances your usual abilities and skills.

[00:12:07] It doesn't give you any new powers necessarily but in the hances what you already had so he was probably a fairly skilled delve master maybe didn't have it hasn't done it recently because he's got you know teams of people.

[00:12:18] But potentially he already had that skill and so he kind of enhances it.

[00:12:23] I liked how the ring almost such like a magnet to the wall and they had that kind of kind of sound which was really cool to sort of show that it's been attracted to where where he's going.

[00:12:34] And yeah so the greed kind of thing is again it's that the dwarves aren't going to be as easily swayed as some of the other people's by the rangs or by sour on but it definitely makes them more greedy.

[00:12:49] So we're a maybe a little bit greedy before I know Prince during says that his dad wasn't too greedy but it's part of the dwarven kind of nature and so for him to be exposed to the ring and then and then have that enhanced and become more greedy.

[00:13:04] I thought it was pretty intense how this new ring tribute this tax that he's basically doubling the cost of all of the goods and because I do you know 50% tax is pretty steep.

[00:13:18] But like let's start at 10% go from there and calling it a ring tribute is it's tribute is a creepy word for a tax yeah yeah.

[00:13:29] I don't like it.

[00:13:31] Yeah, I think it is a king society a patriarchal society so I guess it's but yeah I watched the inside the episode feature it I don't know what to call it.

[00:13:46] I think it's a great deal with Felicia day and the actor who plays Prince Durin.

[00:13:51] Oh my god, I'm so bad with names oh wait a way in.

[00:13:54] Oh, I know.

[00:13:55] Oh, wait an Arthur was on and talking about this episode and the way he described what Prince Durin was going through watching his father.

[00:14:08] Change before his eyes and feeling like he was losing his father.

[00:14:14] It really reminded me of stories and my own experience with seeing a parent start to age and go through either dementia or Alzheimer's or something similar or I think it's probably similar if they go through any other kind of sort of.

[00:14:34] Fateful disease where you're you're sitting there or you know standing there.

[00:14:41] And you can see in front of your eyes that you're losing parts of this person and it made the the story so poignant for me to think about it from that perspective because.

[00:14:54] losing anybody you love is is horrible but losing a parent has this particular twist of making you realize your own mortality and humbling you in a way that that losing other people doesn't.

[00:15:12] And once I made that connection in my head and then I watched the episode again, I was like on the verge of tears every scene between the two darence because.

[00:15:21] Prince Durin is so confused and doesn't know what to do and it made his conversation with Kella Brimbo or even more intense for me because.

[00:15:32] I was like this is his desperate attempt to get some kind of help and.

[00:15:38] I don't know what he thinks Kella Brimbo can do.

[00:15:42] Like he'd have to like physically rest the ring from King Durin, I mean it could cause war and but he's yeah he doesn't have anywhere else to turn he's got Disa and he's got.

[00:15:54] Kella Brimbo that's it.

[00:15:56] Yeah I think I think you went to Kella Brimbo to kind of just check you know like what because he asks him what what what did you do differently what happened with these rings it was different to the Alvin brings and Kella Brimbo says we you know we used the same materials the same process everything was the same and.

[00:16:12] That kind of confused during a little bit and then of course he's got Disa like you say and I think it's really cool to see.

[00:16:19] I like what you're saying about that feeling of losing appearance and I feel like it's making during a decent even closer because they're super close already.

[00:16:27] And I love that you see that you know the look on Durin Prince Durin's face it is horrified when he's seeing his father talk about this stuff and.

[00:16:35] Just looks really horrified by and I just thought to myself he needs his buddy our on to this point to to bounce his stuff off because they both and really fair agreements about all this room.

[00:16:46] Yeah Elron would be like the rings have to be destroyed.

[00:16:49] I can't tell you.

[00:16:52] Very consistent Elrod.

[00:16:55] I thought like the other thing Penny that also was sort of heartbreaking to me because I also watched that piece and then rewatched it was.

[00:17:03] Similarly more in tune to sort of the pain in that relationship and I think what hurt me the most about all of it was there right at the end.

[00:17:14] When the king is talking to Prince Durin and he's suddenly saying all the things that Durin has probably waited his whole life for his father to say to him to say you are enough you are the prince I want you by my side I need you like how confusing when you.

[00:17:33] Like how do you accept that right when you're watching them sort of lose themselves and and how confusing that must be and that's you know he walked back to desad that moment and.

[00:17:44] I felt like you saw sort of the shock on his face both the fear but also sort of confusion of.

[00:17:51] Like I like what I just heard but I don't like you know what led to its delivery and and what I believe it I wanted to hear it for so long but.

[00:18:03] Is he just saying these things to divert me from my concerns about the ring is it a lie.

[00:18:09] It's it is it's heartbreaking.

[00:18:12] Yeah and also just verping where when durin says power over rock so that echoes the whole power over flesh thing here from.

[00:18:20] It's our on and and and and it's just disturbing and you know we know that he's not he's not extremely one over or dark you know turns super dark but he isn't influenced by I think there was a really nice subtle line to put in there so that we kind of recognize it.

[00:18:37] And I love the effect on desad as well you know he does that that they've speech to his people and.

[00:18:45] It's very stirring and rousing and everyone cheers about then it goes over to desad and her other stones singer friend and they look very concerned and I thought fair enough you know like they've been working at this.

[00:18:57] They're all lives is incredible power that they have and the some this skill and then suddenly during puts on a ring and he kind of puts them out of a job.

[00:19:06] Yeah, it's pretty horrible.

[00:19:09] Yeah, and also the way she described it as being a spiritual pursuit and not just a career and and that she she described it as cheating and I thought that was so interesting because.

[00:19:25] There are so many things in this world like tools or or I don't know it's kind of like AI and how I see so much AI generated art and I'm like yeah, but you didn't really make that like.

[00:19:40] Yeah, cheating.

[00:19:45] Yeah, that that was interesting you know what I loved about that conversation between desad and during is that he was like you were the one in the beginning and she's like I know I know I know it was such an honest conversation like she's like yes.

[00:20:00] I did think it was a good idea now. I know something else like let's just move on from that.

[00:20:06] Yeah, tell people married couple.

[00:20:08] Yeah, I continue to just love their relationship and and I again, I say, Deez, I'm a president. She's just awesome.

[00:20:19] She's definitely been one of my favorite characters in the series. She's delightful.

[00:20:25] I did think in this episode it was weird the moment where the.

[00:20:32] What's that called the tuning stone was rolling away from her is she is that level of clumsiness like I know the stone rolling something I think more was happening there but the way she kept running into everyone and tripping like that didn't feel like the character they set her up to be.

[00:20:50] I did love that goofy to me and I and I was like, oh they're kind of making her look foolish. I don't like it and then I very quickly put it out of my mind.

[00:21:01] Yeah, I mean what came next made it okay, but it just threw me out first so it's like what's happening here like this is not and not who I picture her as like bumbling through the market but.

[00:21:14] I don't know if she's gone out of her way. She's like a really well respected like high up member of dwarfs society, I think a lot of people would be like what you want me to help you like.

[00:21:26] Yeah, I don't know it's storing a necessity to get her in that conveniently close by but undiscovered cave.

[00:21:33] Yeah, so was the idea then that this tuning stone was almost be like is the tuning stone have a connection to the mountain like was there something more supernatural happening there that it was pulling it down to the water so she would end up there or.

[00:21:52] Right, or we suppose to believe it was clumsily keep rolling down this I mean I feel like to me it felt like something sort of leading intentional that's happening there but.

[00:22:04] Yeah and it's hard to say you know this world is sort of that the magic is kind of all around but not always over it so it could be something that was yeah being called to.

[00:22:15] And then when she called to the stone was at her call that caused the rumbling of what we are assuming is going to become the bell rock coming up.

[00:22:25] Always it just because that just happened to be when she was down there and that happened because if she can speak to the mountain and then the bell rock is deep in the mountain and can eat it to it is that something that helps.

[00:22:36] The bell rock awakened I'm not sure that's sort of what I felt watching that scene was that she was.

[00:22:43] That her call had sort of stirred it further and just attracted it to that particular location.

[00:22:51] Right like I think that the realm that the bell rock lives in if this is the bell rock is it's a pretty gigantic cavern underneath the mountain like it way below the mountain and then she when she sang it was like oh let's go over there like.

[00:23:07] I don't think she woke it up because we saw it sort of waking up last season yeah and this is where you're going to get all of the absolute.

[00:23:20] I don't know where to use the people who are really.

[00:23:24] Adements about the law and things being wrong at the wrong time and all that sort of stuff when they make comments about this show it's too early the bell rock starts supposed to wake up until the third age line on a.

[00:23:33] But I don't mind like it is it is earlier than in the book but they can make it work I think and I think we need a bigger three as well to to cause I do them at this point and you know who's to say that the bell rock didn't stay.

[00:23:46] I think it's a little bit more interesting to me as well so a lot of the time you see in talking works.

[00:23:52] The introduction of a character or the beginning of a main sort of story for first for a three but there's also a huge amount of gaps you know this hundreds and thousands of years all the way throughout where he doesn't mention anything that happened and so you can imagine that some of the stuff could have happened earlier and yeah I'm fine with it if it works for the story.

[00:24:15] I mean there would have been a way for them to depicted this all happening over a thousand to be yours and I don't think it would be as interesting if they weren't condensing some.

[00:24:27] Exactly even something down to you know underta was actually an arigion for about 500 years making the rings they're not going to show that.

[00:24:37] What you don't want five seasons of just ringing that's crazy.

[00:24:43] I think that would have been a hit.

[00:24:46] I had forgotten that the dwarves do like a column response thing so when they did the like casadom.

[00:24:54] I got like a lot excited again. I was like oh I forgot about that it's so cool.

[00:24:58] It's really cool isn't it? And what about the the council you know he brings the the dwarf emissaries all in so.

[00:25:06] It was going to be the kings and then it's just the minions and I thought it really reminded me of the the pirates council and pirates.

[00:25:14] Yeah yeah and I was expected them to each bring out their little piece of eight.

[00:25:20] I was cool and he's offering the rings to each of their leaders but with a very high text so we find out again later it's half this stuff you know he's become negan.

[00:25:35] He's going to start carrying a bat or no he'll just a barbed wire wrapped around his axe from the start wearing a leather jacket.

[00:25:45] And I love how they actually showed him saying okay who put these restrictions and about the the mining and obviously says to him it was you and then he says not we're going to just ignore that so it shows again that switch and his character is not just that he's getting a little bit greedy or it's that he's actually going against what his previous caution dictated.

[00:26:04] I thought that was really really clever.

[00:26:06] Okay so.

[00:26:09] I've a pro of nothing else I absolutely loved the line are you explaining delvecraft to me.

[00:26:17] Now you know what man's planning feels like.

[00:26:21] Don't explain it.

[00:26:24] They killed me I thought it was so funny and the look on his face how like during an army we're like oh whatever okay.

[00:26:33] You know what you need to do king.

[00:26:36] Um that was fantastic I have been in this situation where somebody is explaining something to me that I know so well that I got that angry and it was.

[00:26:44] It was last year when I told a friend I was starting a buffy the vampire slater podcast.

[00:26:50] And he proceeded to tell me why a buffy is actually an interesting show that I should take seriously.

[00:27:00] I did.

[00:27:01] And I was like did you think I didn't know any of that?

[00:27:06] Like started a podcast on a show that you know nothing about it's not the best start like okay.

[00:27:15] All right yeah it was very weird and I got like really really upset and angry with him about it was like that was just so insulting.

[00:27:22] Oh now you have a good line to do.

[00:27:24] Are you explaining delve crafty and anyone who has not watched the show will be like what what explaining what delve craft.

[00:27:34] What are you talking about.

[00:27:36] That's the best.

[00:27:37] You can't beat him confused and that would also be good on a t-shirt.

[00:27:42] Are you planning to sell craft to me?

[00:27:44] That's a good one.

[00:27:45] I love the the close up that we get of the Steven Ring so it starts with during this ring really super close up like you're almost in

[00:27:54] the stone and then it pulls out new see the seven rings.

[00:27:57] I'll probably talk a little bit more about them in the spoiler section but I'll go into a little bit here.

[00:28:02] So the seven dwarf friends of the rings of power given to seven dwarf lords by Sauron and the guys of Anata and there's a little bit of contradiction sometimes in the writing about who actually gave him the ring where it was Anata where it was Calibre and Bois so both are actually stated in the book.

[00:28:19] The dwarf lords proved resistant to the malevolent magic of the rings because the dwarf themselves is quite sturdy to hard to tame and there's sort of inner thoughts of quite head in as well.

[00:28:31] The rings that we they were used only for the gaining of wealth and like I said before they kind of amplified the natural skills of the wearer and their desire for dominion.

[00:28:41] So that made them greedy and it made them extremely wretched as well.

[00:28:44] And the rings actually gave them the power to multiply whatever they mind.

[00:28:49] I think they're taking that kind of literally here in terms of the tax and also you know him getting more greedy with what they're going to mind too.

[00:28:55] And they kind of that greed and that wrath and the dwarves.

[00:28:58] So in the end it sort of didn't benefit Sauron in terms of him being able to dominate them but it did kind of bring more evil to the world.

[00:29:05] I guess that kind of benefited him long term.

[00:29:08] So I'll say a bit more about that in the school decision.

[00:29:11] That view of the seven rings was really cool wasn't it when they sort of pulled out and you can see also one of them.

[00:29:16] I don't understand what is the like stand or container that they're on.

[00:29:22] It looks like a big bowl and the rings are along the rim.

[00:29:28] Yeah, I think someone just carved that up ready so that looks all nice when he's showing the show in the inner series.

[00:29:34] I mean it's pretty but I was like what is the huh?

[00:29:36] Okay.

[00:29:38] Yeah, don't normally have a seven sided bowl just hanging around in your rooms.

[00:29:43] No that's unusual.

[00:29:45] I thought it was interesting that all seven were gifted to Durran and that it was up to him to distribute them.

[00:29:52] That seemingly his will and under whatever terms he decides to the other dwarf lords.

[00:29:59] That was not what I was expecting.

[00:30:02] Yeah, that's all come to a ragion to get them.

[00:30:06] I thought so too.

[00:30:08] Yeah, I agree.

[00:30:10] I wonder if they just sort of doing that as a way to again show his kind of greed and power that he's going to have control over it.

[00:30:18] And potentially that they wanted to keep just for a show purposes they wanted to keep.

[00:30:23] Calibre and boron and a tire just quite secluded and busy in their own kind of dealings would have been a bit distracting to have seven dwarf lords hanging around in the in the forge.

[00:30:34] Yeah, I think that's where it comes from.

[00:30:37] Yeah.

[00:30:38] Or anything else on the on the dwarves and cusard doom.

[00:30:42] Oh, like us also like elves and worms aren't like historically great friends and so probably having.

[00:30:48] During kind of be the one to reach out to them could also make sense to like they might be less likely to come here what.

[00:30:56] Kilimanburg had to say versus during exactly yeah and so cusard doom and irregion have got a good relationship, but I think that's quite unique in the dwarven elven kingdoms that the other dwarves would likely not have as good relations with the elves so you're right.

[00:31:11] Yeah, that's true.

[00:31:14] Right.

[00:31:14] Wow, where should we go next, Penny?

[00:31:17] I want to talk about shipping and in this case, I you know when I was sort of poking around the internet getting ready for this episode.

[00:31:29] I noticed a lot of heladriel shipping going on which is how brand gladriel people can't seem to settle on a name for gladriel adar but I did see a lot of fan art.

[00:31:43] Depicting the two of them getting together and also galadar.

[00:31:47] Oh, galadar.

[00:31:49] Galadarian.

[00:31:51] Yeah, I don't know.

[00:31:53] There's also some speculation that he is um, caliborn and that she's going to save him and he's going to turn into caliborn and I don't even like that's so ridiculous that I don't think we need to save it through the spoiler section like that's ridiculous.

[00:32:12] And I got me thinking about like shipping in the fandom.

[00:32:17] So, and I found this great website called shipping.fandom.com.

[00:32:22] And the term apparently originated in the expiles fandom in the 90s.

[00:32:28] Lots of fans wanted molder and scully to get together and first they started calling themselves relationshipers than our shipper than shipper.

[00:32:37] And there were also fans who called themselves no romos, which is they don't want romance between those two characters.

[00:32:47] And this was around 1996 and it was turned into a verb around 1998.

[00:32:56] So I, this is my chance to use my college education. I'm very excited about this.

[00:33:01] In one of my film classes we learned about fan fiction and it's, it's real beginnings in sort of the modern era, which was in the 70s.

[00:33:12] There was this movement among it's so strange suburban housewives who liked Star Trek and they would write.

[00:33:22] Kirk slash, spark fan fiction where the two of them had a relationship and it came to be called slash fiction because of how they put a slash between the two names.

[00:33:33] Whatever you put two same sex characters together in your fan fiction it's called slash when it's two women it's fem slash and if it's a heterosexual couple it's hit.

[00:33:47] So there's all these terms that have grown out of it but in the 70s this was of course pre internet.

[00:33:55] These women would create you know, zines and like get them zero octet at whatever was the equivalent of kinkos in the 70s and pass them out among themselves and they would travel around the country in this very grassroots way in the, in the United States.

[00:34:10] And from one of my film classes we got a bunch of copies and read them in class and how cool and also the fan art which there was a lot of fan art.

[00:34:22] Proposing different ways that Vulcan genitalia would be different from us.

[00:34:27] So when you get to that alien stuff and can get real weird real weird real fast.

[00:34:33] Fem slash became a popular term in the late 90s most people think it's started with zina and Gabrielle.

[00:34:42] Oh, yeah.

[00:34:45] And then comes portment toast so the thing that we all now take for granted, you know the reshone, the whole Adriale we know immediately what those mean.

[00:34:56] And so we started with sort of started by pop slash which was pop music fandom and they would write fiction about like members of in sync or back she boys being together.

[00:35:08] And they started combining the names of the singers so like jola is Joey futon and Lance Bass from in sync.

[00:35:15] It's spread to other fandoms and also to just general celebrity talk in 2002 Ben Affleck in Jennifer Lopez started being referred to as benefit and Brad Pitt and Jolini Jolie were brinjalina.

[00:35:30] And the sort of spun out that we have like in the buffy universe there's like spuffy or bangel and you have to choose what team you're on and we take it for granted now, but it's actually not that old of a tradition in fandoms.

[00:35:44] I do think they're telling a story of some kind that is hinting at a romantic desire from hellbrand to gladriel and last season they definitely had chemistry, especially.

[00:36:00] Especially after the battle when they had that like connecting moment and before he tells her he's sowron but she knows she's drawn to him, she's admitted it that she feels this draw and he this week when he was like.

[00:36:15] Everything that happened with Miradani at he you know his his touching hair and telling her that she looked like ladreal was like a compliment and then part of me was like is he got.

[00:36:28] I mean, it's not a compliment though because he really look at a compliment you by Tony look like another only because she's like famous for her.

[00:36:38] I know, but still that was like this still is a little like I mean, it's still a lot.

[00:36:43] But like it's a backhanded car that we're a lot of other sort of predatory things about that conversation like how he's like oh, I'm going to tell you a secret because you're special don't talk to anyone else about this horrible traumatic experience you just had.

[00:36:59] Now it's just our secret and don't talk to Calibre and more because it's a secret and it's just a thing that predators do where they get you to keep one secret.

[00:37:09] And then maybe tell a little lie and then a slightly bigger secret and maybe a little bit of a bigger lie and the next thing you know they're like you're in too deep your mind I own you.

[00:37:18] And he's doing this to her he's separating her from her peers don't talk to anyone else and he's telling her he's like sort of love bombing her he's like you're special I've noticed that you're special and you're so strong to survive that traumatic experience and and at the same time he's doing another narcissist manipulation which is projecting his own.

[00:37:37] Fault which is being a fire demon beast onto Calibrembor right so that he's undercutting any future suspicion Calibrembor has about him.

[00:37:49] By sort of like softening the ground with me or Donia and being like you can't trust Calibrembor I'm so worried about him I really hope I can heal him but you know just keep it to you just between us just a secret between the two of us and.

[00:38:03] It made my skin crawl and then when he touches her hair I was like oh he doesn't actually he's not actually attracted to her it's only that she kind of superficially looks like Galadriel who he has.

[00:38:16] I think part you want attraction and part just like fetishization of like she could save me.

[00:38:24] Yeah, she's powerful and he can see that you know he projected a in season one that idea of her being this sort of all powerful but a step below him queen by his side you know and I think.

[00:38:37] He gives him a kind of that wishes that that could happen because he does still like he knows he's bad but he still thinks he has good intentions right like he's not like haha I'm going to destroy the world he's like haha I'm going to save the world in the way I think is best right I mean I'll throw it.

[00:38:54] Yeah, he wants to control it and I think he he does genuinely feel that if Galadriel went to his side that she would be able to help with that and I agree I think he does have those kind of feelings for her and I think.

[00:39:08] Galadriel you know I agree Penny when after that battle but before she found out he was there on the head that real chemistry and I think.

[00:39:15] Once it's revealed that he's there on she's even more frightened of that of that link because she knows that it's probably because of some of the darkness in here so he she knows that he's recognized the darkness in here and they're very careful to explain that quite a few times throughout that.

[00:39:31] You know to reach the light you have to sometimes touch the darkness and I think he's seen that and he minute pulates it.

[00:39:37] Yeah and she basically says to Elrond I don't trust myself around him please babysit me.

[00:39:43] She likes the bad boy.

[00:39:44] I mean you're shocked.

[00:39:45] Yeah, she likes the bad boy.

[00:39:46] Don't we all.

[00:39:47] What do you guys think about sort of the fandom.

[00:39:52] Shipping them all of the whole Adrienne and like these romantic like drawings that I found and people really really wanting it to happen.

[00:40:03] I don't know I kind of love that I mean it's.

[00:40:06] It's that ultimate fantasy right of like.

[00:40:10] Galadriel could turn I mean it's Greece right it's turned the good guy bad or turn the I mean turn the bad guy good or turn the good girl bad or maybe a little bit of both and they live happily ever after even.

[00:40:22] I mean I think it makes sense to want that.

[00:40:26] I don't really want that to play out on screen because I know how terrible he is and how wonderful she is but I think it's a understandable classic fantasy.

[00:40:37] I agree.

[00:40:37] I think it's really typical of humans to want that to happen and I don't mind it if it sort of sits outside what we're seeing on the show you know of course.

[00:40:46] I don't want them to happen in the show but I understand where where people go with that.

[00:40:52] I agree about about Anata there and has seen with Medaniators absolute classic narcissistic cult leader behavior that's splitting of people that transferring the other people's fault your own faults onto other people.

[00:41:07] It was you know classic and.

[00:41:09] Being the comforter at that end.

[00:41:12] Yeah.

[00:41:12] All them after Kelo Brembo was kind of like rough and mean.

[00:41:16] And it was like I'm the kind hearted one it would be okay.

[00:41:20] Yeah, he was playing good cop wasn't he he was trying to play and the fact that he did that in air shot of Kelo Brembo where he's actually saying look you know I know he's being a little bit harsh and everything but everything's going to be fine.

[00:41:32] Yeah, absolutely typical behavior I think it was yeah I think it's I think it's normal for people to want that and.

[00:41:40] Yeah, I'd part of it doesn't sit well with me big whenever I'm goes oh you know that's cool because he's the bad boy and there's always a distraction that people have for this bad boy but.

[00:41:50] I've got feelings about that I am I'm I've got two kids and I'm very careful to help them understand that if somebody says to you oh you know I'm really bad I'm really bad for you I'll end up hurting you just believe them and run a mile please like don't try and think that you can fix them at top so kind of.

[00:42:10] But I really like you but I don't think I deserve you because I'm so broken just run.

[00:42:16] Yeah, sorry sorry.

[00:42:18] I wish you had been my mom.

[00:42:20] I could have avoided some stuff.

[00:42:23] I think especially when you cast somebody like Charlie Vickers and I don't find his anatar persona to be particularly attractive but his whole brain persona was really appealing.

[00:42:37] I mean he he almost had the aeragorn grubbiness down almost nobody can nobody can ever top legal martensan but he was you know similar and he did a pretty good job of like oh I just want to.

[00:42:53] I live a wholesome life as a Smith and just stay here no more and not be a king like he was pretty convincing.

[00:43:02] But once he turned into anatar all my attraction for him was like from gone I was like oh this guy is a creep yeah.

[00:43:10] Amazing acting isn't it like it really I do really believe it's a different.

[00:43:13] It's a different person you know and it's it's both of them are versions of saron not the actual proper saron both of them are kind of skins.

[00:43:26] But yeah completely different I love what they've done with the the costuming in the hair and make up and the acting that goes along with that just really does you can understand why caliber and boys sucked in.

[00:43:38] Yeah, he's made him exceptionally tall or is the or is Madonna tiny because when she was standing next to him it was a huge gap in their heights and I was like wait is he like.

[00:43:53] Like you know Gandalf is sort of taller than a normal human I was like his he is on the tar like.

[00:43:59] Bigger because he's he's not pretending not to be an elf he says he's a messenger from the ballar so and he could be like amaya which he is.

[00:44:10] I kind of want to go back to season one and look at him standing beside caliber and more there and now because now that you say this like it does feel like since he's come out as an attire that he definitely feels taller.

[00:44:24] Yeah, it's just got a better presence he's he's blowing and he's kind of got those bigger kind of robes and it stands differently.

[00:44:32] I do find the hype thing a little bit challenging and some scenes in this show because.

[00:44:37] I'm glad you're supposed to be almost seven feet tall she's really tall and when they've shown her next you know particularly next to to how brand she's really small.

[00:44:48] And then how brand again yes and in next to caliber they're kind of similar heights her man caliber and born in these scenes so you ought to be interesting to go back and have a look at that.

[00:44:56] I think a huge amount of it is that we just maybe perceive him as taller because he's just got more more presence and how brand kind of milked his humble humble kind of.

[00:45:06] Yeah, persona yeah but modernias I think Tony.

[00:45:11] Yeah yeah well while while we're there in the forward show we show we get into all of that.

[00:45:17] Yeah yeah but I I loved with how it sort of starts out you know caliber and born and honor to kind of are doing about men and they're talking about whether the men deserve their rings or not.

[00:45:28] caliber was kind of standing up to honor to.

[00:45:31] Doesn't really make much difference but all the way throughout honor tower will give him a little nugget like yeah you're right kind of things he's kind of you know building him up and manipulating him through out.

[00:45:41] And we're I was interesting that Anata was saying that he fears new men or sort of trying to convince caliber and more that the men need the rings and that they that he's worried about what might happen there and so therefore they need some he doesn't even mention power or control but he's basically sort of saying we need this to help them.

[00:45:59] And then it's all about the balance yeah yeah yeah and then when he when when he started to name you know he's basically saying looks not all mean a bad some of them are amazing some of them.

[00:46:11] And so I think that's the thing that's been a little bit of this real heroes and that when the darkness comes they stand up and he starts naming all these heroes of men and you can see caliber and boss sort of start to waver with that.

[00:46:21] I'll go into a little bit into this three men that he that he named so these are all historical heroes from from the first age pretty much so he mentions air in del which we've heard of before.

[00:46:33] He was our own father he was known as half album so he was half elf half men.

[00:46:40] But it's interesting that they talk about him in the category of man you know because his his half.

[00:46:46] His parents were one of the three known elf human parents to or the man and he drilled the elf.

[00:46:51] And you're into a part of the battle to overthrow more golf has shipped vingolote was blessed by the valour it was filled with a shining white flame and he was sent to the skies so he's the one who sells across the sky with the silver or bound upon his brow.

[00:47:06] And then it's the morning star so he did a whole bunch stuff in the first age.

[00:47:09] He slew the great dragon and color on the black and when in color gone was slain and cast down.

[00:47:18] That was the event along with the war of rough that led to that ruin of the laryon civil irandis that ancient elf area that we talked about before.

[00:47:27] And because Erian del and his wife, Allowing both had human and elf blood after all these events the valour gave them in the offspring the choice of which kindred they could choose to live as elf or man.

[00:47:38] And then that choice also passed to their children so remember and the Lord of the Rings are on get to choose with as she wants to be a human or an elf so that continues on.

[00:47:47] So that's Erian del and yeah going into Erian del's father so he mentions to war as well and I think this is the first mention that we've had of to war and the rinsor cell.

[00:47:58] Yeah.

[00:47:59] He was a man of the first age as well. He was a hero of the adine so the adiner those ones that turn later into nomenorians and the do not die.

[00:48:09] He was chosen by the valour, Allmo so almost the king of the sea he's kind of like the sea valour a bit like Neptune really.

[00:48:16] He was chosen to be the last hope of the Noldo elves. He had all kinds of first age adventures that you can go and read about but included fighting more Goth and the fall of Gondolin which was this hidden alven city.

[00:48:28] He married Eidrel, which was the hiking high-alvin king to Gond's daughter.

[00:48:34] And then once their son Erian del had reached adulthood he and Eidrel went off into the west and he became the only man to be accepted as one of the elders.

[00:48:43] So elder is another name for the alven race and he shared an emotional life in valonor with his wife.

[00:48:51] And then the final one, Beren so if you've read any of the summer and if you haven't read it's summer and you just want to go and we read one cool story in it read Baron and Luthian because it's an awesome tale.

[00:49:04] So Baron was a man of the first age. He was a hero from the worldhouse of Beawar.

[00:49:09] And his father, Bada here was Slain by Saran's Orcs and then Beren swore us to the Venchum.

[00:49:15] So he went off and he flew the Orcs that killed his dad and he took back the ring of Bada here.

[00:49:21] And again tying a nicely to a character that we know from this show. The ring of Bada here was the origin in Alvin Ring and it was given to him by Finnrod.

[00:49:29] Remember Gledre was brother that we see in the start of the show. He gave it to Bada here and it became an heirloom and there's eventually handed down to Arragorn.

[00:49:38] And you can actually see him wearing it in the movie. It's wearing this ring with a little green stone on it.

[00:49:44] And so Beren fell in love with Luthian who was an Alvin princess and Luthian was half-half and half-myer. So her mother was actually Melian, who was a Maya who chose to live in Middle-earth.

[00:49:55] So of course Luthian's father didn't think that.

[00:49:59] His half-myer half-alvin daughter was far too good for Beren, just a human man.

[00:50:05] So he set this impossible task for him. Yep, he can marry my daughter.

[00:50:08] A few bring back one of the stolen silmers from Morgoth's crown. So he's a pretty impossible task for anybody especially a man.

[00:50:16] So off Beren went with again with Finnrod, our friend Gledre was brother and he was imprisoned by Saran and Finnrod was eventually killed.

[00:50:25] And then Luthian came along and said, I'm not having this. You don't miss it by boyfriend and she pretty much kept Saran's butt.

[00:50:32] She's a, yeah, and she's saved Beren. She had lulled Morgoth's court to sleep and then they ended up getting the resumor from the crown which was pretty cool. So for Felda's mission.

[00:50:43] But then a wolf but Beren turned off with the, with the, with the jewel in it.

[00:50:47] And Beren on Luthian ended up getting rescued by the Eagles.

[00:50:51] They came back without the silmers, but he pretty much won a hand on a technicality because

[00:50:57] her father blessed him anyway, because technically he had got the silmers in his hand. He just didn't have his hand anymore.

[00:51:03] Yeah. So that's pretty cool and this is whole other thing where they die and come back to life. But anyway read the story. It's really, really cool.

[00:51:12] I thought it was interesting. So this is these three men that he brought up as examples to Keller Brembo of how you can have some of them.

[00:51:20] I hear as you can trust them. I thought it was hilarious because all the many names were kind of thorns and him and Morgoth's side.

[00:51:27] Yeah, that would be the ones he knows about.

[00:51:32] Yeah, true. You just got the other ones but yeah. I thought that was really interesting how he brings them up on it. And it does kind of help just weigh Keller Brembo a little bit.

[00:51:40] It's so funny that the conversation that they have and the one they had last week where Keller Bremboer

[00:51:47] is really racist against humans. Oh, yeah. And it's so hard for me because I'm like, Anotar is the villain.

[00:51:58] You're being a jerk. Like, I'm like, you know, Bremboer. Like he's like, oh men have brought this on themselves.

[00:52:05] And I'm like, where have I heard that rhetoric before? Like it's, you know, they're burning down their own cities. It's, um, it's racist and it's so hard.

[00:52:15] I struggle with this a lot with this show and some other fantasy shows where there are races that are different. Like race races.

[00:52:24] It among humans. Like there's not really any difference between the so called races of humans. We're all human.

[00:52:31] But there are differences between humans, new menorians, elves, dwarves, hobbits. Like they have completely different biologies. They are different species, right?

[00:52:43] So yeah, it, it changes the analysis for me in some ways and in other ways I'm still like that's really just prejudice and naughty of you, Keller Bremboer.

[00:52:55] But I, I don't want to feel that way about him.

[00:52:58] No, I was going through the same thing. Penny of that same thought process. Like I wrote down his racist and then I like stopped for a minute. I was like, what he is being racist against men. But also he's not completely wrong. Like elves are, you know, they're immortal. They're a different level. And they are

[00:53:19] have more force, I and calmer than men and don't make the same decisions that lead to the destruction of the world. So it was like he's not wrong. But I also don't think.

[00:53:31] What he's saying is a reason not to help men because they're not all bad and not all the destruction they cause is with pure ill intent.

[00:53:42] And so I think like I came to the end of like both things are true. Like he's not wrong and elves probably are like able to think on a different level than men, but that's not a reason to not want to help them.

[00:53:55] Yeah, but is it a reason to not trust them with rings of power?

[00:53:59] I don't know. I don't it's complicated because it's like you said it's different. It's not the same as what we refer to as races. It is quite it's even beyond species like it's immortal's with different.

[00:54:15] I don't know magical makeup even and so I was also trying to decide.

[00:54:21] And there was a cheeky part of me that was like maybe women would be a good idea. Like yeah, like talking about me.

[00:54:29] Yeah, maybe women would not be as easily corrupted as men. Now I believe women are capable of evil. You know, I'm being cheeky just that's my theme with the show is like we need more women.

[00:54:42] Yeah, well it did take a woman to knock down the highest man that gets a ring eventually. So I am no man.

[00:54:51] What are best lines and like I never don't cry.

[00:54:55] Yeah, yeah, I definitely agree with what you're saying Veronica the I think both things are true as well. And I think there's you can't you can't really even expect elves to understand men.

[00:55:07] You know, because they have a completely different way of thinking and of viewing and of being in the world with being immortal. So I think it's hard for them to understand them.

[00:55:16] Or to see them as on any kind of equal level. They're not they're not ever going to because they are so different.

[00:55:22] But yeah, the question of whether they can be trusted with it is a is a really huge one and and caliber more comes to the conclusion that no. So he no no matter how unattar is being convincing with him.

[00:55:33] He uses all these lines like we'll take the perfection of the three thrice perfected. We have to make nine and we'll draw strength from the three and we'll redeem the seven and it sounds quite convincing.

[00:55:43] But caliber and more eventually just says no that's the final answer is no and is that chilling moment where unattar starts walking away and he goes you're right.

[00:55:51] I'll just make them myself.

[00:55:54] Oh no, so scary.

[00:55:57] And then they start making the rings and Nadania tries one on and I didn't know what was happening at first.

[00:56:05] I was so confused by all the stuff flying around and at first I didn't even think of you know because we've seen it before.

[00:56:12] We've seen people being invisible and I didn't think about that and so I did enjoy it more and we're sticking in third watch.

[00:56:20] So the nine don't have been necessarily take you to the shadow world right away and the law but they do and the law they also made quite a few practice rings first.

[00:56:29] So this isn't necessarily one of what ends up being the nine but is obviously manipulating them and purposefully creating the situation where she's going to go into the shadow world.

[00:56:41] I believe that unattar did that on purpose. He's found someone who he believes he can manipulate and I don't think it was a mistake or an accident that she put on the ring.

[00:56:50] And had this experience of going to the shadow world.

[00:56:53] I think he purposefully made this scary invisible ring first to scare Madania but also to appeal to Calibran Bois Pride because Calibran Bois comes down and of course only he knows how to make it better.

[00:57:05] Pardon me was like why are they storing the animal in the ceiling?

[00:57:10] Yeah, that means it's been to me.

[00:57:12] I think it's maybe just how they move it like they pull it up and then move it to a different area but why not just put on a trolley like they're really strong now.

[00:57:18] I was like in just a bit of a thought.

[00:57:19] I thought maybe like the road runner was going to pop out.

[00:57:23] Yeah, it felt very loony to us.

[00:57:26] Yeah so Madania she goes and she tries to ring on and she goes invisible so she goes into the shadow world.

[00:57:33] The unseen world.

[00:57:34] And we've seen it before and the Lord of the Rings often photographs to ring on you can see him go into the shadow world.

[00:57:41] So everything in the world so Arda is another name for the world here that we've got in the rings of power.

[00:57:46] Everything in the world of Arda falls into either the scene or the unseen world.

[00:57:51] So the unseen world is this kind of like parallel world really which is it's neither good nor evil and it does contain both good and dark and bright beings spiritual beings.

[00:58:01] Talke and didn't go into a huge amount of detail about it but the idea of a fairy realm or a parallel dimension is really common in folklore going back thousands of years in our own human folk folklore you know.

[00:58:14] And in this world wizards and also elves who've been to Valinore exist in both the scene and the unseen world.

[00:58:22] And the wizards form is slightly different in the unseen.

[00:58:26] The one ring which obviously we see later where we know it and we're familiar with it from the movies and the book.

[00:58:32] It shifts its way to the Raith world so the Raith world is kind of part of the unseen world.

[00:58:39] And it's sort of the so-turn at kind of aspect of reality and in the Raith world the where I can see the forms of other people.

[00:58:46] So the where are themselves in our world when they put the ring on scenes invisible but then they become visible to creatures of the unseen realm.

[00:58:53] So remember photo puts the ring on and then the ring raps can actually see how many can sort of see their form as well.

[00:58:59] And that they're the most obvious example like use of the unseen creatures are the ring raps because they're kind of invisible and formless in our world but you can sort of see their form a little bit more.

[00:59:11] The men who became the ring raps they sort of had this dual existence that were kind of in both as well though an our world the scene world and then also in the Raith world.

[00:59:19] And they have been actually set in the dark fading after time.

[00:59:23] There is interesting that that so obviously Madonna goes into this world and she sees this creature and she describes this horrifying creature with this skin of flame kind of things as she's seeing sirens true form.

[00:59:36] She's standing right there she's seeing him she can't see any of the other elves because my guess is that the other elves have not seen the light of the other north so they are just you know fresh middle of the elves and so they don't have a presence in the unseen world.

[00:59:50] But she technically would be able to see Calibrembor because Calibrembor is from Balon or and he would have some sort of presence or visibility in the unseen world.

[00:59:59] But I think what they did here was really clever where she puts the ring on Calibrembor is in a different part of the forge and she sees an attack she sees sirens true form is completely terrified starts kind of flailing around and kind of trying to grab things and she grabs the like hammer.

[01:00:18] Kind of as a told as a weapon and then Calibrembor arrives so she I sort of feel like maybe she would have just seen him in her panic at the end when she's about to take the ring off or he takes to ring off her own hand.

[01:00:31] And I think that that makes it even more plausible for.

[01:00:37] An attack convinced her later that it was Calibrembor that she saw because she maybe even has some sort of memory of seeing a version of Calibrembor in this world while she's flailing around with this kind of shadow creature.

[01:00:48] Is that what you guys got from that or took me a couple of goes to watch it and really see and understand that was that sort of your thoughts as well.

[01:00:56] That's why it was definitely sour on that she saw and when she's describing it they cut to his face and he's like, oh, yep, that's me like he you know he had a little guilty look on his face.

[01:01:12] But convincing her that it was Calibrembor was master stroke in terms of manipulating and damage control.

[01:01:22] Yeah.

[01:01:23] Yeah, it was just terrifying wasn't it when you see her being one over to that story you know because he does make it sound convincing.

[01:01:33] And yeah I do think especially after the second and third watch I do think he did it all on purpose.

[01:01:38] He let her see the spirit realm he wanted someone to kind of be on his side in the kind of mission to undermine Calibrembor.

[01:01:46] And later on and you can kind of see you know eventually you know they're talking about what to do to fix the problem in Calibrembor.

[01:01:57] He's got the answer to fixing it, you know he's about to say it when Prince Durin arrives and he says to Durin it's the same process as same materials and all the tools.

[01:02:07] And yeah it's all coming from Anata as that that scene that we saw was it last episode or the one before we're.

[01:02:14] Anata takes a myth real and passes it through both hands and holds on to for a bit and puts all those evil into it that's gone into there.

[01:02:21] Yeah, and that scene that there happens next with Anata and Calibrembor you know basically again masterful manipulation tempting him to back out and saying well it's it's our fault.

[01:02:35] We we ended up lying and this is what put the issues into the dwarven rings and you know maybe you should just go and confess to go go lad.

[01:02:45] And this is this is the classic manipulation as well give someone two options.

[01:02:49] The one that is really unpellatable to them to in order to make them come back to your idea that you had in the first place and make them think it was their idea.

[01:02:57] And then he's just all and that's at Calibrembor was like yeah we're doing this project and he starts telling off the Smiths you know he starts getting like really mean boss man to the Smiths.

[01:03:08] And they this is a really good kind of confirmation for them and particularly for Madania and you see her exchanging a look with Anata at that point that he's been driven to obsession and it gives Anata that the little opening to play the good cop.

[01:03:22] You know really works really well on Madania especially because you think she's seen that Calibrembor and so she's like okay and now we can believe on the top because he's you know he's the one.

[01:03:34] And you start to see Calibrembor really struggling you know he's he's starting to crack and it's best setting that they bring it all out in the open with Anata saying to him as one who's so masterfully minute plates and visuals be mindful knowing as minute palating you.

[01:03:48] I know he's doing it like the call is coming from inside the house.

[01:03:53] I thought it was so interesting that he said to Calibrembor you know we introduced to seat into the process and and I was thinking you know we talked about this a little bit last time like what was he actually doing how did he actually influence the rings.

[01:04:10] Is it just that he has like his touch and his intent of malice when he touched the myth real went into the rings or.

[01:04:20] Or and is it the act of getting a good person to do a bad thing like lie is it the ability to corrupt this good person that is the power itself.

[01:04:36] I was comparing it in my head to the creation of core cruxes in the Harry Potter universe that you have to do an act of great evil in order to create the horror crux.

[01:04:49] And that the you know the great evil in that story is usually murder but like it could be a great evil to corrupt a good being and get a good being to go against their nature and.

[01:05:02] There there's a really great series about this or story line about this in supernatural where.

[01:05:12] Now the demons want to free Lucifer who's been trapped in a cage and the first step to freeing him turns out to be corrupting a good man in hell and so they they really really get into this.

[01:05:31] What it took to corrupt someone and the power of the actual corruption in that show and if you haven't watched supernatural at least the first five seasons or really really worth your time.

[01:05:43] I I'm sort of fascinated by this idea that it's not just sower on's power but it's the fact that he has been able to negatively influence others that sort of creates is for expanses power amplifies his power.

[01:06:01] Definitely because otherwise you know he's a master Smith he learned at the foot of our way he could go and just make the rings himself it has to be.

[01:06:09] Coming from a goodness or on a good intent to start with that he twists and that that's it's really nicely with the whole theme and and talking from the very beginning that.

[01:06:19] The the bad guys can't create something evil right off the bat they can only twist and deform what is already good.

[01:06:27] It happened with the orcs you know they made from ours it happened with everything else the trolls are kind of made in a and mockery of the ends everything that has been has been twisted from something that was originally good so it really sits nicely with that theme.

[01:06:42] I have seen some people speculating especially with that scene where he passes the me through through his hand as it like a slight of hand trick where did he put something else in there as well.

[01:06:51] I don't think he put anything else physical in there I think it really was just his mouse you know getting bored into it yeah exactly like the wording of when he makes the one ring as well.

[01:07:01] He has to have influence over but he can't just go and make it himself it has to be a kind of group project with the hours.

[01:07:09] I think they've portrayed that really nicely on screen.

[01:07:12] The phrase group project is really funny maybe think of them all like in a high school classroom and.

[01:07:20] He's just not pulling his way I'm doing all the work.

[01:07:25] It's really cool.

[01:07:27] I thought everything about him in his manipulation has been so masterful like I had such a hard time at the end of last season trying to understand how is he coming back here.

[01:07:38] To make more rings right and I feel like they've done it so well in his transformation and in his manipulation of color brim board and even like what you were saying earlier.

[01:07:50] He could have taken the tactic of saying let's because you cover more because you were deceitful but he says we like he softens it and this is wearing this together.

[01:08:01] Still giving him the guilt and the distrust of himself but it makes it to where otherwise what might have been like I'm taking a back how dare you accuse me to.

[01:08:14] Oh we did this bad thing together and even those little things like I just feel like it's been written really well for me to believe that he could have corrupted killer born in this way.

[01:08:28] Yeah yeah really surprisingly well.

[01:08:31] There was also interesting the line that Madonna says about I think he's been here I think he's been here among us all along because when they played that in the trailer I didn't show who said it but I 100% assumed it was glad real she sounds like glad real when she says that line and when they played it in the trailer that's what made me think I will maybe all of the unattased off it's going to be a flashback that's right.

[01:08:52] Yeah and so I do love what you're saying Veronica I agree that it's really clever how they've done it that it can be convinced it's not that he comes along and color brim ball goes oh you look a bit like help brand are you someone different like you literally stood in front of them is how brand and says guess what I'm not how brand I've been sent by the Valar and this is my job.

[01:09:14] And so you can see why he's convinced and you can also see why he's manipulated and they're starting to crack and crumble so it's very well done.

[01:09:23] The next place I want to go to is the doors of Duran.

[01:09:26] Oh yes.

[01:09:29] Yeah we're still in the forge.

[01:09:33] It was really cool to see and when I sort of saw the start of the scene and you could see Navi stand in there and then you could see

[01:09:45] And he says you know it's the doors that only visible by moonlight and it only opens to friends we can see the pattern I think they had to make us be able to see the pattern carved into the rock so we knew what it was but technically that's invisible to the eye.

[01:10:00] I would have quite liked for it to be unveiled and moonlight so we could see that I thought what have been really cool for was by the window and it was just as blank stone and then they drew the curtain or something I thought that would be quite cool but never mind we get to still see it.

[01:10:12] Really familiar picture.

[01:10:14] The doors themselves look exactly like they do in the Lord of the Rings movies and the reason for that is that they're based on drawing by Tolkien himself.

[01:10:23] Apart from the maps and the writing that was the only drawing in the first edition of Lord of the Rings so he actually drew that door himself and it's a very familiar sight to most of us.

[01:10:34] Many of the books and visions that we've got have got a picture of that in there.

[01:10:38] There is so much merch available here that is a depiction of that door.

[01:10:45] I've seen it on hoodies, I've seen it on jewelry, I've seen it on notebooks, there's just like this everywhere.

[01:10:50] The number of tattoos that we've brought up.

[01:10:54] Totally.

[01:10:56] It's a really cool design and these doors are supposed to be designed with even the joins were invisible to the eye so you can't actually see even the door shape not just the pattern on it.

[01:11:06] They're supposed to be matched so perfectly with the mountain rock that when they were closed the doors could not be seen at all.

[01:11:11] They just look like the rock.

[01:11:13] Navi made the slabs out of this grey material.

[01:11:16] It's actually stronger than stone that don't go into what the material is and it's enlarged with a field in which a calibre and more had made.

[01:11:24] And their field is kind of a derivative of the material and it can only be seen in style art and moonlight.

[01:11:30] And then when visible when the style art and moonlight headset you can see this kind of silver like an alien.

[01:11:35] It shows the pattern of a hammer and an animal, which is the inlums of during.

[01:11:40] The shows a crown and seven stars so it's probably during crown.

[01:11:45] Two trees are mounted by present moons and it's probably symbolizing the trees of the high elves and we can see a single star as well, which is the emblem of the house of fair nor.

[01:11:55] And now on the top left and right corners there are the 10 white symbols for C in and D so calibre and boi, Navi and then during as well this pretty cool.

[01:12:06] The inscription on the on the door reads in in Duden Arden Mordia, Piedum, Malon, Amino, Navi, Hein, Effant, Calabron Boer or Arigian, Tefant, Ethu, Hien and Gandalf translates us to the other other walkers that we see him and with them the fellowship for the rank.

[01:12:24] The doors of Duden, Lord of Moria, speak friend and enter. I, Navi, made them Calabron Boer of Holland drew these signs.

[01:12:33] So that's what he says in the book we don't get the Navi and the Calabron Boer but in the movie he just says the speak friend and enter.

[01:12:39] And so the inscription's got the clue and the password is there.

[01:12:42] From it inside you could open the doors just by pushing against them but you should took the power a couple of people should do so.

[01:12:48] But when the fellowship of the ring enters Moria through the doors initially the other stuck there and they can't figure out how to open it.

[01:12:56] And in the book it was actually Mary Brandy, about who basically gives Gandalf the answer by saying what does it mean speak friend and enter.

[01:13:03] And Gandalf realizes that the correct translation is to actually say the word friend and Sundaram so they say melon and the doors open.

[01:13:11] So it was really cool tieback for people. You don't need to read the book, you don't need to know anything about it but if you've seen the movies then this is a really familiar.

[01:13:18] So it was pretty awesome to see.

[01:13:21] And it was last episode right that we saw the similar like map with the writing glowing in the moonlight. Is that right?

[01:13:31] Was that like a couple of tests?

[01:13:33] Yeah, I thought it was cool that we also got to see. We just seen these little tidbits of things that come back up in the later times.

[01:13:45] And it's just another one of those clues then the writers and the showrunners they really do know their law so they're not just, you know, creating this new show out of some of the bits of material they are very careful about going back and finding which bits they can and obviously they've got the rights to use everything from the Lord of the Rings and the Appenuses.

[01:14:04] But they have to apparently go back to the Tolkien estate for every single piece of stuff that they want to include. So initially they didn't actually have the rights to use the name Anata because Anata doesn't appear and talk about Saran's fair form and the appendices of the Lord of the Rings but they don't mention the name Anata.

[01:14:23] So they actually had to go back specifically and say yep can we please use this name because we need it and they just got granted it. So yeah each piece of new law that they want to add they have to go back and get specific permission which is pretty cool.

[01:14:37] I imagine the Tolkien estate is pretty happy with how respectful and loving the show has been to date and probably things that they were jealously guarding before the production even started.

[01:14:50] Now they're like, yeah we'll sell you that. Like we've got to be some trust now.

[01:14:57] Yeah definitely. Yeah and Simon Tolkien is a consultant on the show as well so they have actually got direct contact with with the family and yeah I think the more that we see on screen and the more that they see how respectful it is.

[01:15:10] So I think they're going to be more lenient with what they offer, what they allow which is really cool.

[01:15:15] Shall we head on over to Numanor?

[01:15:18] Yeah. My heading for this section is called Numanor is in disarray slash.

[01:15:24] Kemen is the worst.

[01:15:29] Kemen is the worst.

[01:15:32] Let's check him.

[01:15:35] Yeah it's awful.

[01:15:37] We we start with Farazon and has some kit, Kemen speaking there and it's interesting you know he's standing there holding the sector so Farazon is now the boss who's overthrown Muriel.

[01:15:53] And I thought it was important that he's actually holding it. You know he's not he hasn't just received it and put it down somewhere he's holding it he's he really needs that in once that power.

[01:16:03] I quite like to out if you noticed on part of the handle of the sector ahead of sea urchin on it like a little round sea urchin.

[01:16:11] And you see how we call that a kena.

[01:16:12] It's a really a bit of a delicacy here but I thought it was a really cool part of the design.

[01:16:16] And the sector he talks about it not being enough for him and he starts you know talking about immortality and he talks to Kemen about being able to see it a sea of from Minotama.

[01:16:29] So you know Minotama we've talked about that before that's the highest peak on Numanor and it was this kind of holy holy mountain.

[01:16:35] The sacred to the old Numanorians the ones who are faith-borne were devoted to Edo and the Vela.

[01:16:44] And basically anyone who climbed the mountain was required to be an absolute silence.

[01:16:50] And the tradition was really really strong only person who was allowed to speak when they climbed the mountain was the king or queen.

[01:16:55] They could ask other prayers that were required during the three prayers which were these sacred beasts.

[01:17:01] Birds and animals did not approach the site of Minotama and only the eagles of man way were seen circling over the summit.

[01:17:08] And we saw one of the eagles last episode they were regarded as sacred guardians of the mountain and all of the land.

[01:17:15] There was the highest peak of the region.

[01:17:18] There was 3000 feet tall apparently and it had this kind of flat in the summit so it was really big kind of area that you could contain a whole bunch of people if they had root religious ceremonies there.

[01:17:27] There was no structure at the top of it so these ceremonies took place in kind of open year and it was said that on a clear day the far side might see Toli or a sea.

[01:17:37] So he talks about that too, so we hit here, he had mentioned it as a sea.

[01:17:40] So it is a sludge island.

[01:17:43] It was created when the elves were invited to Vela Norse.

[01:17:46] So remember way back when the Vela said okay, you can come over here and live with us in the undying lands.

[01:17:53] There was two hard for them to go the long way through the icy north so this stage the undying lands and the Lurther connected at the top with this kind of icy wasteland.

[01:18:03] So Ulmo that sea boss of the sea, he actually uprooted an island from mid-Lurther and he put all the elves on it and he towed the Movea to Vela Norse.

[01:18:11] It was kind of like this sort of, it was a little jump on and he pulled them all over.

[01:18:18] And so that was Toli Russia and it actually stopped kind of when it was most of the way there.

[01:18:23] So it didn't get all the way to Vela Norse but it was pretty close and eventually the light from Aman which is that land where Vela Norse reached it and beautiful plants and trees grew there.

[01:18:33] And the ancestor of the White Tree of Numanor grew there on Toli Russia.

[01:18:37] So some really cool background kind of lore there and he just kind of mentions it.

[01:18:43] The main reason why he's mentioning it is that we can see him start to talk about immortality.

[01:18:49] So he's been yearning to be the king, he is now the king, he's taken advantage of this kind of political upheaval.

[01:18:55] And he starts talking about immortality.

[01:18:58] And I really loved, I loved watching him but I mostly really loved watching him and so the actor who plays chemically on what I'm saying.

[01:19:08] I think he's doing such a phenomenal job.

[01:19:10] Just the way his face looked in reaction to what Fadazon was saying.

[01:19:15] He was pretty terrified by it and not just by what he was saying about his ambition but also by you know Fadazon says this horrible thing about his mother.

[01:19:25] He was pointing that he was going to have this terrible dark mess and what I think to say is son.

[01:19:31] I'm not even going to tell you until you do something bad for me.

[01:19:35] Yeah, if you make me proud, I'll tell you, I was like, you're going to dangle his dead mom in front of him like that.

[01:19:42] Like, chemin is the worst but Fadazon created exactly.

[01:19:47] What a horrible father.

[01:19:49] And I've seen all over the internet.

[01:19:53] I've seen lots of comparisons with chemin and job free from game of thrones and I actually commented on one of them and I said, I think yeah, I think he's got the potential to go super dark even darker than he's gone now.

[01:20:07] But I think job free started as a psychopath whereas I think chemin seemed kind of nice and he's just been manipulated and turned.

[01:20:14] So it was pretty horrible and really the look on his face was incredible when he was reacting to that from his father.

[01:20:22] Yeah, I was like, I was thinking about what we talked about a couple of weeks ago when the C-Sarpant saw how brand in the water and was like, oh, I'm out of here.

[01:20:33] I was like, when the scary thing is afraid and that's like, that's a really bad sign.

[01:20:39] And chemin who is a very social-climy like entitled, you know, kind of an even before this episode, he's like, oh my dad is going off the rails and I was like, if Fadazon's ambition is scaring chemin, like that's a whole other level of scary.

[01:21:05] It reminds me of some politicians that are in our world who have had their lieutenant's turn on them because they're like, I know this person behind closed doors and they are a horrible person.

[01:21:20] And chemin is like, oh dad is horrible but because it's dad.

[01:21:24] Yeah, and he doesn't really have any choice I don't think he kind of has to go all in. And so his obviously is to follow the orders and I wasn't sure whether Fadazon's order was to dispend the C-Guard order to set this established the shrine but I think it's probably both.

[01:21:38] I think he gave him these two jobs to do because he goes down there and he starts to spend the C-Guard order.

[01:21:44] We'll have to hand in at their outputs and their swords and everything. That scene was so moving. What did you think of that scene with Alenejo?

[01:21:52] It was so deadport society, right?

[01:22:08] And they were all like, you don't get it. And they just kept calling him captain that was so moving and beautiful.

[01:22:15] I didn't completely understand the look on Ellen Deals face because he sort of stops and then decides to leave.

[01:22:26] And I couldn't tell if he was like, if I turn around and acknowledge this, something bad is going to go down between the kingsmen and my sailors.

[01:22:36] I have to just walk away.

[01:22:38] Yeah, and Mary I'll see no matter what they take from you, you have to just stay steady.

[01:22:44] And I think that was where he was going from. He really wanted to talk back to them, but he just decided to walk away.

[01:22:52] And it does show as well with Kim and sang, he's nobody's captain.

[01:22:57] That he doesn't understand, but it doesn't matter whether you take away his official rank or his sort or anything.

[01:23:01] It's not about that. It's about the ties of respect that they have for him and that what it was for main true.

[01:23:06] So I loved that, the fact that they were still there like that. Oh, it was beautiful.

[01:23:11] And he had to hand in the sword that Mary I gave him as well as horrible.

[01:23:15] Yeah, I thought it was so interesting when Arian pulls Valen Deals side and is like, you know, I could probably talk to someone about.

[01:23:24] And he was just like, you're not my friend.

[01:23:27] Like, I don't want your special treatment. I don't want to be part of your gross club.

[01:23:31] Like, yeah, I loved that moment between the two of them because I remember and season one thinking that he had like a thing for her.

[01:23:40] Yeah, yeah. And now he's like, you're gross. I dodged a bullet.

[01:23:46] But it's what happened is that conversation intended to set up.

[01:23:54] What's her name?

[01:23:55] Yeah.

[01:23:56] I'm not.

[01:23:57] Arian is setting up for her to the next time we see her having some doubts about the side she's chosen because here is this person,

[01:24:07] and even though they were odds of their political views, she still had love for right and now Kevin has thrust a sword through him.

[01:24:18] Well, we can be sure that he's not going to tell you.

[01:24:20] I think he's going to do everything he can to make sure that she doesn't find that it was him that killed Valen Deals.

[01:24:26] Or that in his version of the story, you know, it was self-defense.

[01:24:31] It was heroic and yeah, he was attacked exactly.

[01:24:35] I mean, he kind of was attacked.

[01:24:37] That's not false, but Valen Deals had walked away.

[01:24:40] Had lead him go and walked away.

[01:24:42] Stabbing him in the back.

[01:24:44] I mean, that is the last one.

[01:24:44] With his hands up.

[01:24:46] Yeah.

[01:24:47] Oh my god.

[01:24:48] I know.

[01:24:49] That was a really powerful scene, the whole that whole scene in the shrine with Kim and, oh, I such a coward as well.

[01:24:57] You know, destroying that relic like holding it up on that look on his face when he just dropped it.

[01:25:01] Oh, God.

[01:25:02] It was every high school bully.

[01:25:04] He was like, you know, like, oh, why are you hitting yourself?

[01:25:07] Like he was such a jerk.

[01:25:09] Oh, I hated him.

[01:25:10] So I put out a question to my, my Facebook friends of who are some other just insufferable, spoiled

[01:25:17] brat villains that you could think of.

[01:25:20] And of course, many people mentioned job free.

[01:25:22] Job free is a great example, especially in season one before he has real power, but he's still like,

[01:25:28] Oh, the army should report to me.

[01:25:31] He's the worst.

[01:25:32] And then they also brought up Prince Egon before he becomes King Egon and House of the Dragon.

[01:25:40] In the first season before he's king, he is he isn't annoying, petulant, spoiled brat.

[01:25:49] Somebody said Ramsey Snow slash Bolton.

[01:25:52] And I was like, I don't know if he was ever spoiled, but he certainly a villainous entitlement jerk.

[01:25:58] I couldn't think, oh, there were some people that essentially.

[01:26:02] Yeah, Sebastian Milton.

[01:26:04] I mean, it's dead on for Sebastian Milton.

[01:26:07] And then some people said a couple of characters that I am not personally familiar with, which is Nelly from Little House of the Prairie.

[01:26:14] And I'm not sure if that is such a perfect one. Yes, she's the worst.

[01:26:19] Yeah, okay, that reaction tells me all I needed to know about that.

[01:26:23] And the other one was over Rucosol, which I think is from Charlie and Chocolate Factory, right?

[01:26:29] Yeah, I've never seen any of those movies or read the book.

[01:26:35] But I'm giving Penny a shock to look just for on the listeners, and we're equally involved at that.

[01:26:40] That's homework.

[01:26:41] Hi, my favorite.

[01:26:41] Yeah, I am.

[01:26:44] I, it's a trope, right? This spoiled brat.

[01:26:48] Like, do you know who my father is? Like, this character who is doesn't understand about respect and authority?

[01:26:56] They think titles are more important than actual experience.

[01:26:59] They think that, you know, that their father being powerful is enough to scare everyone into respecting them.

[01:27:08] And they're incredibly obsessed with the idea of being respected.

[01:27:11] And so like when Ellen Till goes off to hit him, he's like, maybe you don't know.

[01:27:15] I've been promoted to and it's like it's too late.

[01:27:18] Ellen Till's hitting you in the face.

[01:27:20] You know what I am?

[01:27:22] This is going to ruin the world tour guys.

[01:27:24] Yeah, exactly.

[01:27:25] It was also, it was cool how they kind of both fell in deal and a lindil kind of take turns at holding each other back,

[01:27:32] because leading up to that point, that each wanted to have a go at them and they both kind of had a turn at holding them back.

[01:27:38] But it was as soon as Kim and destroyed the relic, a lindil just punched on an eye-loved there.

[01:27:44] But Kim and you know, such a coward like he needs a soldiers to hold a lindil down in order for him to try and land a punch, which was just awful.

[01:27:54] Did you see when he did there too before he started to...

[01:27:57] Oh, I mean when he struck this chin, oh, so terrible.

[01:28:02] Such a good night was just yeah, it was horrible.

[01:28:04] And I actually truly thought that he was going to drown the lindil once he grabbed him and held him under, because it was for long enough that I thought, oh my god, this is how he's going to go.

[01:28:14] And then eventually of course, the lindil breaks his elbow or has dislocated his shoulder already, really does to really throw them down.

[01:28:23] And then he shows him mercy and as a lindil who's convincing him, don't do it, don't do it.

[01:28:28] And then he stands there and he's holding his arms up.

[01:28:32] And then as stamped in the back, oh my god.

[01:28:35] And I just screamed out, no!

[01:28:39] It broke my heart.

[01:28:40] And I didn't even know I was that attached to the lindil, but I love her.

[01:28:44] Now I am.

[01:28:45] Yeah.

[01:28:45] And I think for me it was Elandil and that was the most heartbreaking he's holding, Valandil, who he probably feels responsible for this, because he started the fight and then told him to back.

[01:28:59] And he has to feel like, I mean, he thinks his shoulder is dead, right?

[01:29:03] Yeah.

[01:29:03] And so he has to feel like losing his son all over again and that he's failed once again.

[01:29:07] His daughter is on the side that is perpetuating what just happened.

[01:29:13] His wife is dead.

[01:29:14] Like he must, myriol is telling him, fall in line.

[01:29:18] He must be also alone in such a failure in this moment.

[01:29:22] And it really broke my heart, especially on second watch.

[01:29:27] Like when I was like, sharp, that would happen.

[01:29:29] You could just sit with what he must be feeling.

[01:29:33] It was the end of the heartbreaking.

[01:29:35] He lost dying in his arms and then came in being like, make sure they know he started it.

[01:29:41] Yeah.

[01:29:44] And Elandil holding him and he wasn't able to hold a seal, so it's sort of like he's losing both again at the same time.

[01:29:51] And he's holding him and he had become like a son to him, you know, over the last few months or whatever it is.

[01:29:58] But I think over the years is probably gotten to know him very well, not just as a seal does for him, but as you know one of his main sea guards.

[01:30:06] I love him so much.

[01:30:07] And I just, I love that they used the name Valindil as well.

[01:30:12] So in Valindil was quite an important numinorian name.

[01:30:15] There's actually the name of one of Elandil's ancestors, a previous king of numinore.

[01:30:22] And later on, I don't think it's too much of a spoiler to know that a seal delivers because we know that happens.

[01:30:27] But later on, a seal, her name is his son Valindil.

[01:30:30] So I quite like that they've had this character who was his close friend who's now died, so it kind of makes a bit of poetic sense that he would name his son after him.

[01:30:38] And the name Valindil is a queen your name and it means love of the villa.

[01:30:42] So I think it's really cool because it shows his, you know, faithfulness to the cause.

[01:30:49] And I just wanted to do a huge shout out to the actors that played Valindil and Kemen.

[01:30:55] I think they've done such an incredible job.

[01:30:57] And I'm a little bit feeling a little bit proud of them because they're both Kiwi boys from the sealers.

[01:31:03] And yeah, so the actor who played Valindil is Alex Terrent and actor who plays.

[01:31:11] Kemen is Leon Wadden.

[01:31:13] And they're both from New Zealand and they're both trained at Twifakari, which is our national drama school.

[01:31:17] And so I kind of was watching them on screen going, this is a really big show.

[01:31:20] We've got these two Kiwi boys, yeah.

[01:31:22] It's a tradition and a lot of the rings to have quite a few Kiwi actors because it was films here.

[01:31:26] But I just thought they did really well. They're two really important characters so far.

[01:31:30] And I thought they were great. And I just, I just picture them, you know, in between takes on set just going, well, how cool is this?

[01:31:36] I think it's a little bit of a riveting really fantastic performances from both of them.

[01:31:43] Yeah, and I'm looking forward to seeing even more what we get from Leon Wadden because, you know, he's said an interviews how dark he goes.

[01:31:49] And I think this is just the start. So it's going to be really cool to see.

[01:31:53] Some people might have seen Alex Terrent before he was an NCI S Miami.

[01:31:56] So I haven't watched that show, but yeah, I can imagine he does a good job there as well. And so I thought that was awesome.

[01:32:03] One thing in the Numenor plot line that I didn't really completely follow was Miriel's logic.

[01:32:11] So she asks Ellen Diel what he saw on the Palantir and he tells her about his vision.

[01:32:16] And she's like, this is good. Numenor is on a different path. Don't miss everything out.

[01:32:21] And there's on being king must be changing things. This is good. And granted the path that she had been seeing was pretty terrifying.

[01:32:30] But Ellen Diel's vision, Numenor was burning.

[01:32:33] I mean, it's not like it was a hopeful vision. It was just not a wave taking over the city.

[01:32:41] It was burning. I think it was like smoke and stuff coming out of the city.

[01:32:46] And he looked, he didn't look happy. You know, running.

[01:32:52] Yeah, that was an escape. I just was like, I don't think this means it's a good path. It's just a different path.

[01:32:59] Yeah, I've got a bit more to say on that in the spoiler section. Just in case people don't want to know sort of some more future have things there.

[01:33:06] But yeah, I agree, initially just on screen you kind of like hang on what is her gain here.

[01:33:11] And she was all fired up before and now she is advising caution.

[01:33:16] Which I do think, you know, even if you don't know the rest of what happens, I do think it's probably advisable right now because you kind of want to see what happens next with the dust settling.

[01:33:25] And you sort of don't want, I think she doesn't want, she's in trouble now because he's obviously going to get thrown in jail.

[01:33:31] But I think she didn't want him to be, you know, I guess a target.

[01:33:39] Yeah, a target or kind of like how back from what he might possibly be able to do later for here. I think that she wanted the two of them to both be able to fly under the radar a little bit for a while.

[01:33:50] And that's what I want to know. So yeah, was it what happens with that?

[01:33:54] I had another thought which is that Ferrison encountered how brand in season one.

[01:34:00] They, they had conversations and new each other. And I was wondering, was he always going to be this, you know, evil or greedy or ambitious or did something that happened between him and how brand sort of nudge him in this direction?

[01:34:17] I got the sense in season one that he was definitely like a manipulator. He was definitely someone who wanted power, but this like,

[01:34:29] elves are mocking us with their immortality. Like, this is another level that I don't know if I saw coming from two.

[01:34:38] I don't think you can have those eyebrows and not be an evil person.

[01:34:44] I literally, I actually wrote that in my notes. I was like, I mean what other end could Ferrison go to with those eyebrows?

[01:34:53] Like you're destined to pay a matter of time.

[01:34:55] It's like he's holding his hands down at his side so he doesn't toilet some stash.

[01:34:59] I was saying, okay, you see the twirling of the mustache. Like he could twirl those eyebrows.

[01:35:05] I'd want that. Oh, yeah, yeah.

[01:35:07] Either a villain or a mad scientist.

[01:35:11] Yes, I've got a bit more on that and the glitches, Mariah as well.

[01:35:16] But for now, I can say, I think they've been clever at not making that obvious either way from the first season.

[01:35:23] That year we see him considering and kind of maybe having the potential.

[01:35:28] I'd be interested to go back and rewatch again because I know what happens later.

[01:35:32] I had already thought about him from the very first time we saw him.

[01:35:36] But I'm interested to see how obvious that was for someone completely fresh to this world, you know from the beginning.

[01:35:42] So I think they were careful not to make it too over either way with her, and particularly with Halberand.

[01:35:49] I just really love the ceremony with the shells with the candle in it.

[01:35:54] Like that was so cute. And like, I was trying to think of some situation in my life where I would need to have a shell candle ceremony

[01:36:01] just because I don't know. I haven't been in the shells, you know, seeing little boats and things.

[01:36:08] Lenten, that's just really a sweet ceremony really gives me a little.

[01:36:12] I felt so bad for the priest.

[01:36:14] Oh, I know. Yeah.

[01:36:16] And I love how all the rituals that we've seen in Nomenal Acne,

[01:36:19] did to the sea because remember they put their shells on the grave as well.

[01:36:24] And having these little shells with the candles floating out was beautiful too.

[01:36:28] Yeah. And yeah, that thing about her.

[01:36:32] What is it like the new highway?

[01:36:33] It's going to be going through the show.

[01:36:35] It's basically a good afternoon.

[01:36:37] This has been condemned.

[01:36:38] Yeah, yeah.

[01:36:40] Everybody get out.

[01:36:41] The government needs your land.

[01:36:43] Move. Yeah.

[01:36:45] I'll go back to the acto place, Kim and two.

[01:36:48] I really hope that he is able to get their recognition for the acting and have that separated from his character.

[01:36:54] I know that these horrible characters in the past have had problems with that.

[01:36:59] And I understand that actor who played Joffrey didn't do any more acting after that because he got so much.

[01:37:04] But she's in something now.

[01:37:06] Oh, yeah.

[01:37:07] Okay, cool.

[01:37:07] We've got a lot of trouble and did say like I'm done with acting, but I saw he's in something that came out this year.

[01:37:13] I really hope people can can separate it, especially given that the unmodum hasn't done a huge amount before.

[01:37:19] And it's, you know, the start of what I hope is a really promising career for him.

[01:37:23] I hope that he doesn't get too much hate from people because I think he's done such a great job.

[01:37:28] I feel like for some reason it's always the young actors that get that so harshly and I think hopefully he's just old enough that he's not getting the like petulant child label, which is like,

[01:37:40] For some reason, I feel like those ones like we saw it with like Lizzy and the walking dead and John.

[01:37:46] Yeah.

[01:37:47] And it's like, what's this face from Harry Potter or Drico.

[01:37:50] Oh yeah.

[01:37:51] Drico.

[01:37:52] Like I for some reason, it's it's gross because you would think it would be the opposite right that we would be nicer to children.

[01:37:58] But it does seem there's some sort of cultural thing that like when they're a terrible young actor that they just like the recovery from that is very difficult and it's really gross that people do that.

[01:38:11] And it's frustrating because you're playing the character.

[01:38:14] This is a real person.

[01:38:16] It's also so much hatred from the audience is an talent like this is an actor who is performing at the top of his game.

[01:38:25] Like, yes, we don't like the character but we should all be impressed by the acting and yet there are people who just can't seem to separate it.

[01:38:34] Yeah.

[01:38:36] I mean, I hope he has already enough of the confidence in him.

[01:38:41] He's a lot older than a lot of those other actors that you mentioned.

[01:38:44] He's like 35 or something and he looked, he looks like younger but he's 35 so I think they're actually he can manage to yell that that's hard off him because I want to see more.

[01:38:53] He does have kind of a punchable face.

[01:38:56] He does does the guy belt bells a guard, punchable face.

[01:39:01] And like, Arian.

[01:39:03] I mean, she went from me thinking like, ah, she's so pretty too.

[01:39:07] Look at that smug.

[01:39:09] Explain it.

[01:39:10] I'm like, I just, oh yeah.

[01:39:12] And it's all in how she's carrying herself.

[01:39:15] She's the same person.

[01:39:16] She's just as pretty as she was before but like something about her performance makes me just hate her.

[01:39:22] And that's impressive.

[01:39:23] All right.

[01:39:24] Shall we move on back from Numa Noa, back over to I think really the only thing that we haven't covered so far is the the little bit that we saw right at the end of Alps and Edda.

[01:39:36] I actually, I really like Gilgain lad now.

[01:39:39] You know, he's, he's, I didn't like him so much in the fuses and I like him now.

[01:39:43] And but I just, I really want him to get out of his office and start, I don't know because he feels like this manager who's standing in his office being told what to do by his minions.

[01:39:53] He's got some really cool strong counts on me.

[01:39:55] Because I like that Alps who's trying to tell him where to go and put his, put his armies.

[01:39:59] She was great and you know every time I see a strong female character on screen, I think a deep penny and how much we're in the house.

[01:40:04] I'm just enjoying that extra layer in the season.

[01:40:08] So I'm just really looking forward to Gilgain lad taking off his some flurry crown and there's some silky robes and just getting out there and actually fighting is going to be awesome.

[01:40:17] But even you know, even when Al Ronda arrives, which also by the way I love that running scene through the forest and our own story is tomato running.

[01:40:24] Oh, that was so great. We need reps is cloak off.

[01:40:27] Oh, it's the best.

[01:40:28] Yeah.

[01:40:28] He doesn't want to see the armies and he says that he can't defeat Adar and Sarah on alone.

[01:40:33] And I kind of thought they were going to cut to something else in terms of who is going to help defeat them.

[01:40:40] And I'm not sure whether that's what they intended when they cut over to Adar and that walks.

[01:40:46] As a, or as a kind of the scene that we see, you know that trope where if they tell us the plan on screen it's not going to work but if they don't ask the plan then we'll find out later what happened in the does work.

[01:40:56] Part of me thought it was a bit of that and you know I've talked about it before we're no one said again because it's a story thing.

[01:41:03] But yeah, that they get some help later. So yeah, that's part of it was me.

[01:41:07] Oh, I wonder if that's what we're seeing on screen.

[01:41:10] But then you know we cut over to to Galadriel being taken by Adar.

[01:41:15] I went back and watched that her scene together from season one when she has captured him and they have you know their conversation and she's really.

[01:41:27] She's really aggressive with him. It's amazing. He's like tied up and she's like you're one of those, you know, elves that was corrupted. I heard about that when I was a child you're one of them aren't you?

[01:41:39] And he's like, oh yeah.

[01:41:41] And then she's like, he's like, I killed Zauron. She's like, I don't believe you.

[01:41:45] And then she threatens him and he's like, oh, I'm not the only one who's been permanently changed by darkness.

[01:41:54] And in that moment even in season one, I was like, there's like a little like spark or something here.

[01:42:02] There's like he likes her. He like respects her and he wants to connect with her. He doesn't want to like he didn't want her to hate him.

[01:42:12] I think in season one. I think he was like, if you got to know me, you would actually agree with stuff and last week I remember when you know he was like a star shines on our meeting thinking,

[01:42:23] Is he going to try to ally with Galatriel? Like, I don't know if that's going to work but I mean it might work like, I mean she's so powerful and and he's got a point they have an enemy in calm.

[01:42:35] I can't blame her guy for trying. I would want to ally with Galatriel. He also gave a speech at the beginning of that episode,

[01:42:43] To the orcs to the orcs army before they go into attack the Southlands and do all stuff that they do in its episode six or done.

[01:42:51] And he's like, you're free and he gives a whole speech about how they're not slaves and and that this is a battle for to have a homeland and to be safe and to be free

[01:43:02] And I just love how it makes me have sympathy for the orcs. Like, they've always been portrayed.

[01:43:12] Yeah, they've always been portrayed as just like evil monsters.

[01:43:17] Like not a lot of subtlety and and now there's this whole new layer that I'm enjoying and now I feel bad about how I know they're going to end up.

[01:43:27] Yeah, but I also like how, even though we know there's a battle coming up.

[01:43:33] The players aren't really completely set. You know, so like who was this big army of orcs going to be fighting for?

[01:43:39] We don't actually know yet and I like how we don't know that it's going to be really cool to see.

[01:43:44] And I love also how Galadriel never looks scared. I just hate love better about her character. She's standing there completely surrounded by orcs and she ducks annoyed about you.

[01:43:54] And she looks scared. And yeah, she's she's there suddenly and then of course, you know, she's she's standing in there. She pulls out a prison shake.

[01:44:04] I wrote in my notes. I was like, look at how confident she is completely unarmed.

[01:44:09] She's not unarmed. She's a good girl.

[01:44:12] Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no. That was so great. And yeah, I love the interactions between her and I was going to say relationship but I don't want to use that word because like he's

[01:44:23] there are people out there shipping and I'm just like, oh, that's not that's not happening.

[01:44:28] Galadriel. Yeah, but I just like, but I love their interactions because I do think that he

[01:44:37] I think he respect her and I think he does see the darkness in her as well in the same way that's our on does.

[01:44:44] But he's also wanting to use her for his own ends as well.

[01:44:48] So it is an interesting pairing, I think. I'll call it a pairing rather than a relationships.

[01:44:55] It'll be interesting to see where they take that for sure. And it was kind of a nice, you know, so much else happened in this episode and it was one of those other things we are.

[01:45:05] You just think, oh, that's the end of the thing, oh, suddenly we've got this other little extra bit to watch at the end. She's really cool.

[01:45:10] I loved that they had her in this like sort of prison cart and then when they sort of pulled the curtains off and she was in there and she's looking around there. All the orcs were like,

[01:45:23] Ooh, it's scary. Galadriel, the orc killer. Like, she's so beautiful.

[01:45:29] And the idea that she's like the figure that strikes terror into the monsters is like, well, it's very buffy but it's also very satisfying.

[01:45:38] And I love the look on her face. Like she's like, yeah, you better be afraid of me.

[01:45:47] Yeah, I love that and it's just a new mention, Buffy, because I love the visual contrast to which is often the case.

[01:45:53] And Buffy, you know, and Buffy, she's she's got the shiny blonde hair and the little sparkly hair clips and everything, but then she just kicks all the demons butts.

[01:45:59] And then in this, you've got the same visual contrast, we have got Galadriel who's this fairly, I guess, in relation to the orcs, fairly short little.

[01:46:07] Alphlady with the blonde hair, and the beautiful light kind of coloured arma, and amongst all these dark bruthing orcs.

[01:46:13] It's a really cool and the confidence too, it's very Buffy, Buffy will be surrounded by vampires and Be like, alright? Bring it on. Like, yeah.

[01:46:23] Yeah.

[01:46:25] And you know, I know there's been a lot of criticism with sort of how pageal it.

[01:46:29] I feel like I've used the word page on the 25th times in this episode, but sort of how

[01:46:33] page like glad girls character has been in comparison to the glad girl that we see

[01:46:39] in Lord of the Rings. Right? And I don't hate it. I think she's been so fun to watch and I'm okay

[01:46:44] with her being a younger, more like spitfire version of herself and she, you know, with age and

[01:46:55] time becomes more reserved. But I felt like in this episode when she stepped out

[01:46:59] among those that works with that bravery, like I could for the first time really, really see

[01:47:05] the echoes of who she becomes. Right? Like it's definitely more in your face. It's not the

[01:47:13] reserved but it's that confidence that she had that I think carries through to what we see in

[01:47:19] Lord of the Rings as well. And I liked feeling that through line for the first time, even though

[01:47:26] been fine and enjoyed the difference in her character, it hasn't been a bother to me. It felt good

[01:47:34] to feel the connection, I think this episode in that for me. Yeah and you can actually see the

[01:47:39] combo at times in the Hobbit movies and I've only really, I think I've only seen all of them once

[01:47:45] or maybe even twice. I don't know them anywhere as well as I know the Lord of the Rings movies.

[01:47:51] But that randomly, well because pretty much all my friends, even where I just order the

[01:47:56] algorithm set up, the one that popped up the other day was actually a clip of when

[01:48:03] Galadriel and Gandalf go to Dogaldo and they come to Starron and his decommence of form. And

[01:48:10] that's actually a really cake-ass battle scene. You see Galadriel take Blanchett, white robe,

[01:48:15] Galadriel actually fighting. But there's a lot more. Yeah yeah and I love that because it kind of

[01:48:21] of a combo of the lady, of the words being all ethereal and peaceful with this young

[01:48:30] fighter, Galadriel that we see. So it's actually quite cool and I'd like to make me kind of want to go

[01:48:33] back and see those movies again because it's a bit of a bit of a blend of the two which is nice.

[01:48:41] Lots of dead moms on this show. Is Neil Dorzmarm, Duransmarm, Heemman's mom, Theosmarm,

[01:48:49] El Ronsmarm, I don't know. Is she just gone or is she dead unclear to me? Yeah, gone, gone and yeah.

[01:48:56] That's a very distant season. All the mom, Norris Mom because she has a stepmom,

[01:49:01] Maryel's mother, Estrid's mother, it's just a lot of dead moms. Yeah, just a lot of dead moms.

[01:49:07] All the different moms doesn't see that. Have parents, uh, Gladriel, no parents. It's a little

[01:49:13] annoying, but it's also of its time. You know, so many, so many stories are motivated by

[01:49:23] men losing the women that they love and then they go and do something about it and the stories all

[01:49:27] about the man. I do like the way that rings a power has started layering other women into the story

[01:49:33] so that it makes up for some of that. But like, people who are writing new stories can we have

[01:49:41] less dead moms? Yeah, and look, it's not just of its time but it's of Tolkien. So he lost his

[01:49:47] has dad first and then his mom when he was really young and was an orphan and that shaped a huge

[01:49:53] amount of his life and he was very, very close to his mother and she was the one that kind of

[01:49:57] instilled the love of languages and the love of literature and I'm so you can kind of see where a lot

[01:50:02] of this comes from, from his history and then a lot of what you see as well is the concept of

[01:50:11] a slightly older and more wiser female appearing as well because he met has his wife when

[01:50:18] he was very young. I think he was 14 or 15 and she was maybe 18 or 19 there was a bit of an age gap

[01:50:23] at that time then they met when they were living together in this pretty much an orphanage and so

[01:50:29] I think you see a lot of that theme as well throughout so all of the elf men,

[01:50:34] pairings are a man with a female elf who is older, wiser, more ethereal. You know there's

[01:50:41] all these things that are really, you can really see where it all came from. It's a little

[01:50:45] normal. So I think it's definitely obvious and I do, yeah and I do agree with what you're saying

[01:50:51] you know about how the balance fat nicely it's very obvious in this show but they've also

[01:50:56] balanced it with other strong female characters as well so yeah it's it's going to be interesting

[01:51:02] to see who else pops up and what else we're going to see moving forward. Yeah, any other nice

[01:51:09] beauty? At first I was confused by the tuning crystal I thought it was a palentere but

[01:51:13] I got over that. Yeah it was sort of a looks completely spherical but when they went

[01:51:18] you turn it over it looks like it was sort of amethyst like wasn't it? Head sort of crystals on

[01:51:21] but I think it was broken. I think it was a sphere until it got broken in the cave and it

[01:51:29] was a dark scene I think which also like the on first watch I didn't catch the broken edge to see

[01:51:36] the amethyst inside and I had the same feeling because it was also like leading her and then

[01:51:41] like broke at this romantic event as time and just with the dark screen I also had that

[01:51:49] for a minute honey. Yeah I just had a couple of notes I love all the scenes with Mary-Al and

[01:51:56] Elendio we just got a short one in this one but throughout the both seasons I've really enjoyed

[01:52:02] their their work to get earth it was really great. Did you notice the pregnant elf in the form?

[01:52:08] Oh cool! Oh, cool! Yeah one of the most written! That's a nice touch. You see here at the

[01:52:14] start they're very one of the very first scenes where they were all talking about it and then I think

[01:52:18] she was the one that nearly got squashed by the end of. Yeah we've been. No don't do it.

[01:52:23] And they don't do that but yeah when I'm taking notes on my phone if I'm watching the show

[01:52:28] my speak to text on my phone makes caliber and boss name Kelly Bimbo.

[01:52:34] I'm always correct me. That's fantastic. Kelly Bimbo. Yeah is Yeldo

[01:52:38] always turns into is a door and Barazon is always Verizon which is kind of appropriate because

[01:52:50] Verizon is a little bit evil as well. But hello love fair. A couple of little little callbacks

[01:52:58] as well I loved as I mentioned before the naming of the men you know he just drops the three

[01:53:03] names but then and it's they're allowed to drop those names because all three names are mentioned

[01:53:07] and load of the rings but we don't get the backstory but yeah I shared it with you so now you've

[01:53:12] got it. Durin panicking without the ring was like you say Veronica very good callback to Bilbo

[01:53:18] panicking when he thinks he's lost the ring. It's also a little bit like the way an addict would behave.

[01:53:24] Like where's my yes, where's my alcohol? Which is it where's it? That is how I feel like the rings

[01:53:29] that's the ring hold that they get. It does. Yeah it's a lovely addiction. Yes.

[01:53:35] And in the final one was in the shrine when they are talking about the far green country

[01:53:41] and the swift sunrise so that's directly from the talk that Gandalf has with pepper when

[01:53:47] Pippens asked me about what it's like after he died and he talks about that so I loved that

[01:53:51] because that was a direct callback to the book and also what they used in the movie of the

[01:53:56] little of the rings too so that was really nice. It's also just beautiful. Yeah I did actually have

[01:54:02] one like super random note. It was just something I jotted down. I really loved that scene and the

[01:54:08] framing of the scene when King Durin was sort of busting through and the sunlight came down on

[01:54:14] him. It was really beautiful but as they got the shot where you're sort of looking down from

[01:54:19] the hole with the light coming in you see him. Like the dwarves costume being like their makeup I

[01:54:28] guess is already just hilarious to be like when seeing the actors without the makeup and then

[01:54:32] seeing them with it how different they look because of their noses and stuff. But in that moment

[01:54:37] where the light shining down like it felt like I was looking at a gym hence in Puppet. Okay Durin

[01:54:42] like it could have been a moment from like the dark crystal or something like and Jim Henson

[01:54:47] I mean that's a compliment like Jim Henson puppets are gorgeous but it was funny to me and now I

[01:54:53] unsee it and especially with Disa then later in the episode being sort of like clumsy and so

[01:54:59] me and like going to the market place like to me the dwarves have become a little bit like I'm entering

[01:55:04] a gym Henson world you know it's also what is the show that it's a gym Henson show where they go

[01:55:12] underground. Frogle rock? Frogle rock? Frogle rock? Yeah it's like a little fraggle rock being

[01:55:18] underground anyway so yeah from now on I don't think I'm gonna be able to unsee that's hilarious.

[01:55:24] Now I'm gonna see it too. I mean I love Jim Henson so I do too.

[01:55:31] And it's I think it's hard to see how to make a distinction it's hard not to cross the line between

[01:55:38] being interesting and extreme you know and the dwarves have got really big hair and they're really

[01:55:46] specific looking and it's hard to not cross the line into comico I think with that and when you say

[01:55:51] them acting comically that's where you get it a little bit yeah I do and it's okay like

[01:55:56] because I was I know I complained earlier about Disa being a little clumsy and just because I don't

[01:56:01] feel like that's how they've set her character at previously but in general like like you said like

[01:56:06] it is actually inherent to the dwarves to be slightly comical like if you think about the dwarves

[01:56:12] in the hobby and if you think about the moments with Gimli and Lord of the Rings like definitely

[01:56:18] yeah they were that is part of them so it's okay yeah I feel like if Jim Henson were still

[01:56:24] alive he would probably be maybe involved with a production like this I can see them calling on him

[01:56:31] for the you know the monster effects and and creating you know because like he did Yoda

[01:56:38] yeah yeah definitely yeah that's cool if he was alive we would get another season of the dark

[01:56:45] crystal TV show um I don't know if anyone else watched that I did not because I'm still afraid

[01:56:51] from the dark crystal movie I loved it I was such a scaredy cat kid for some reason I could

[01:56:57] watch that movie and not be afraid I mean the sketch sketchies definitely oh there's a lot of

[01:57:06] a fan of you know obviously why I'm a fan of Laura the Rings like that world building and magical

[01:57:13] creatures and the imagination that goes into building those worlds and so I think

[01:57:20] the amazement with the dark crystal outweighed the fear factor for me yeah I think it's up there

[01:57:27] with the neverning story in terms of geostalk or true yeah it really is

[01:57:34] with awesome all right well that was an amazing discussion um I think we're going to take

[01:57:39] a short break and we will be back with heaps more so stay with us and with back and we just have

[01:58:17] one piece of news this week this is from emission.com and this is entitled The Rings of Power

[01:58:23] doesn't need to stick to cannon at honnors talking by expanding it the Rings of Power season 2

[01:58:28] is the latest in a long line of adaptations to draw heat for making changes to the source material

[01:58:32] but I'm here to argue this is the best way to honour JR Tolkien and his works now here me out

[01:58:37] I know that something of a controversial stance but let's take the case of the Orc baby

[01:58:42] as the most recent example of the kind of pushback of crime video show draws.

[01:58:46] Art and fans on the internet express their displeasure with the show revealing a family of

[01:58:50] walks complete with a little un-decrying it as an unforgettable twist on Tolkien's treatment of

[01:58:56] though not only can you find the seeds of such an idea in Tolkien's writings anyway

[01:59:00] but expanding on the source material and my opinion has never been an act of disocration

[01:59:05] instead of the way I see it it's another form of reverence. But I hear you cry how can

[01:59:10] meddling with the source material possibly be showing it respect let me explain no one can deny that

[01:59:15] Tolkien is a legendary writer his sprawling effect that is little order of the rings saga and all

[01:59:19] its accompanying writings elevates him to immortality and the literary and cultural canon

[01:59:24] his works have ended up pretty much on the same level as our foundational myths and

[01:59:29] fairy tales at this point most who was idea of an elf or a dwarf as the type Tolkien wrote about

[01:59:34] after all and what do people long to do with such fundamental stories why reenbent

[01:59:39] murk-course retell them over and over diving into them as living breathing worlds that can be

[01:59:44] shifted and changed and played with a realm of endless possibility right for interpretation

[01:59:48] treating Tolkien's works is sacred leaves and through a frozen but seeing them as an oasis

[01:59:53] of potential of seedlings to grow rather than preserve is placing Tolkien on the same level as

[01:59:58] those famous storytellers of old which is surely with a fantasy but Jooseau belongs.

[02:00:03] This heaps more in the article so we'll link it in the show notes and it is really cool and I love

[02:00:08] first of all I love the analogy of the of the seedling to grow which is really cool

[02:00:13] and then it also echoes what Tolkien said himself that we've mentioned before about it become being

[02:00:18] a broad canvas that other artists can can answer and I really love that and it just as

[02:00:24] it such a good answer to all those people that they're who are freaking out about any tiny little

[02:00:27] changes in the law. Yeah, I really like the way it was written as well so it's really nicely said

[02:00:35] yeah I agree and I feel like you know I had heard that I definitely heard it when you

[02:00:41] guys last season talked about some of Tolkien's sort of opinions on this and I may have seen it before

[02:00:47] but I think it just may be love him even more because not only did he create this world but he said

[02:00:53] go play like go play and you know what I mean that to me is such a gift that he's given

[02:00:59] and as long as you're honoring the themes that the image of friendship and and go to

[02:01:05] evil and like coming together to defeat evil like I think you're still honoring Tolkien and

[02:01:11] that's why no matter what people sort of complain about the series that's why it almost

[02:01:18] like I get emotional I feel like Terry I'd right now just talking about it because

[02:01:22] I just think it's so beautiful that we're getting this and yeah he gave us this gift not only

[02:01:29] the story but the the gift to go play and explore the world further and I just love it thanks for

[02:01:35] reading that article. Oh absolutely yeah I agree for sure. I went looking for an article for this week

[02:01:42] and I clicked on a lot of articles that had headlines like Ellen Deals Vision explained

[02:01:49] and then it would just be a description of what we had seen on the screen. I was like that's

[02:01:53] fun and do you not know what the word explain means? But there were a lot a lot of articles about

[02:02:00] rumors of cancellation because the ratings for season two are lower than the ratings were

[02:02:07] for season one but ratings might not be the right word viewership numbers but they're still quite

[02:02:16] high and the show is doing very well compared to other streaming shows that are out there right now.

[02:02:22] It's always in the top like three of shows that are happening that are dropping you know at the same

[02:02:30] and Jeff Bezos has said on numerous occasions that this is a passion project for him

[02:02:37] and that he wants to see it through and wants to complete it and I'm not the biggest fan of him as a

[02:02:45] person but he does have the money and power to stand behind that and season three is already in

[02:02:54] so I don't think it's being canceled I think there is just some malcontents who are spreading rumors

[02:03:01] and well that's the ultimate clickbait isn't it? If you know that 40 million people are watching

[02:03:05] this show and you put out an article that says rumored that it's going to be canceled. Guess what?

[02:03:10] 40 million people are going to click on it because they worried about it in the game so it's

[02:03:14] self-fulfilling in terms of just getting the clicks and they often don't have anything real to talk

[02:03:20] they just said potentially Amazon might cancel it because of first there's no actual

[02:03:25] news or information. Yeah and season three is confirmed yeah you're right it's in development

[02:03:29] and it's all happening so once have done season three I think it would have to be like failing

[02:03:35] miserably to cancel season four and five so I don't think we're in any danger at this point.

[02:03:40] Yeah I think it's going to be completed and I also would not be surprised if like five or ten

[02:03:46] years from now we get a different Lord of the Rings related series. Yeah definitely that would be

[02:03:54] awesome I would love to see some first-age stuff. Oh would be amazing and in the meantime we have

[02:04:03] got the Rehera movie to look forward to the end of this year and then it's also just been confirmed

[02:04:07] that the hunt for Gotham is going to be two movies so that'll be interesting to see how they

[02:04:12] have they do that as well but we've got a bit of fodder over the next several years and you might

[02:04:16] have done it at least six more years of this show. I don't know if it's true or not but I saw a quote

[02:04:20] attributed to Ian McCallan that said if they want me to play Gandalf they better hurry up.

[02:04:27] Well yeah I've actually seen that that Emma Callen and Orlando Bloom have been in talks

[02:04:33] with Andy Circus about it so yeah I'd be interested to see what they do with that and where they

[02:04:40] go from either way any material any Lord of the Rings that we can see on our eyeballs is

[02:04:46] yeah if they get Vigo back I will lose it. I think there will be a lot of us that would just

[02:04:55] faint. Well yeah and like because you know they aged them up in the in Arwen's vision they age

[02:05:02] to be King Alissa and I can just see Veronica Fano herself we can't see you as but I'm the same

[02:05:10] oh Fika but in the in the scene where we are when's having the vision when you know when

[02:05:16] runs tell him her life is going to be like and it actually is true it all turns out but you get to see

[02:05:21] older Arragorn older King Alissa and that's the ageie is now so like they were just to have to put

[02:05:28] on the slightly longer work and then that's Vigo he's still looking good and I think would be amazing.

[02:05:33] I don't want them to age him down I don't want him to play the main character and being

[02:05:37] you know whatever they do with CGI to make you look younger I wanted to be older Arragorn telling

[02:05:43] the story and they're seeing a younger one on screen I think it would be great.

[02:05:47] I am totally on board for that idea yeah Andy Circus if you're listening that's what we want

[02:05:55] so just give us it. We got a good chunk of list of feedback this week Veronica would you like to

[02:06:03] start us off? Yeah we had a comment on Facebook from Mark with Bernie he said I thought this episode

[02:06:09] was excellent. Sorrow and masterfully deceiving Kelo Bremboer and King Durin struggled to control

[02:06:16] himself around the ring were both great and nicely pasted throughout the episode.

[02:06:21] The new menorese sections have been my least favorite this season but even those were really good

[02:06:25] on this one. I am my agree I agree I have not I think you two may differ I have not loved

[02:06:33] new menorese. I love new menorese. I like with the dwarves I like when we're with

[02:06:38] the laddriel and I love when we are with the Hobbits or what are things? Parharco. Yeah

[02:06:46] but yeah I agree with Mark though I felt like I didn't dislike new menorese week who's still engaged.

[02:06:54] Well there's so many civilizations that there is something for everyone so I believe that everyone

[02:06:58] has different favorites I love them. We also got a message from Yumi or Komoto. I was so happy to

[02:07:05] see an end wave. I think I was more excited about that than seeing Gombedo laughing face and I'm almost

[02:07:10] done listening to episode 19 of your podcast I've watched the first three episodes twice so far

[02:07:15] and we'll go again and pay closer attention to keeping in mind what you and Penny mentioned.

[02:07:20] I'm just amazed at your knowledge and I'm thankful for referring information to this similar then.

[02:07:24] Thanks Yumi. This didn't appear on our main Facebook page just as actually it

[02:07:28] comes into my page because Yumi is a friend of mine and we actually met when she came on one

[02:07:33] of the Lord of the Rings tours that I was so sure about. So it was really cool when I had just

[02:07:37] asked her if I was allowed to use her who had come in here but it was really great to hear from

[02:07:42] you Yumi and hopefully you can come there and visit again sometime in the middle of your

[02:07:46] great to see you. And we also got a comment on Facebook from Greg Schwam who has been my co-host

[02:07:53] on a couple of podcasts before she Hulk and extraordinary. He says I have a little one sleeping

[02:08:00] or I would leave a voicemail. I like the similarities between Dern the third and Bilbo but Dern is

[02:08:07] so much more affected because of Dwarven greed. It's really tying the room for this world together.

[02:08:14] That's a big loveowski joke especially using the same wording and tone as Bilbo did with Gandalf.

[02:08:21] Loved all the amazing Dwarf action this episode. I feel so bad for Disa. She's really struggling.

[02:08:27] Your husband losing his inheritance, she's good. Losing her rock singing capability,

[02:08:32] really starting to lose it. Her profession being replaced so casually by a ring goes complete

[02:08:38] bat bleep. After she told Dern the fourth to swear he wouldn't wear a ring. I was waiting to see it

[02:08:45] ready on him. Oh I don't think that's gonna happen. I wondered that though when he saw

[02:08:50] when they had that moment of I promise I would say I was like, but I just see yeah, I hope not God.

[02:08:57] All right he goes on. I don't really understand what the deal is with Galadriel and why

[02:09:02] Adar is keeping her alive. Does he really think she will one be willing to treat with the elves on

[02:09:07] behalf or two actually convince Gil Gallad, Gil Galas, Gil home, Gil whatever the high came to

[02:09:16] work with the Orcs. It seems like it's against their very nature. Apparently she was willing to and

[02:09:22] then it didn't matter because GG, the HK felt that Sauron was the architect of the whole scheme.

[02:09:29] Shocker! And that leads us to Arreggion and oh my God she went into the shadow realm.

[02:09:36] Really loved the Bicci Sauron scenes, really cemented into my mind what a

[02:09:42] expletive deleted, exxbredive deleted or he is. Although it is tough to know that he ends up winning in

[02:09:50] the end. I guess not in the end, but at least getting what he wants by the end of this series.

[02:09:57] Lastly I want to comment again on how amazing the lore they are flushing out is. The stories

[02:10:02] that this is based on are apparently great. But my understanding is that it's described the

[02:10:07] same way talking rights with minimal dialogue and a lot of description. Seeing and hearing the conversations

[02:10:13] take place in the personalities interact, I feel they've done a phenomenal job and I can't wait to see

[02:10:18] more. Awesome podcasting! Thank you so much. Thanks Greg. Thanks Greg. We didn't need a

[02:10:25] voice ma, we can just imagine your voice because we know it's so well we can imagine all of the

[02:10:30] things that you're saying when you write it like this is fantastic. I am really disappointed

[02:10:34] Penny that you didn't try to go for the deep baritone. No it could go to deep and

[02:10:39] great voice is quite beautiful. Greg and I interviewed one of the actors from extraordinary

[02:10:45] and right when we got on the phone with him he was like Greg you have such a great voice

[02:10:49] it's great for broadcasting it's like a classic broadcast or voice. Penny you're nice.

[02:10:56] It was really funny and I was like don't take it personally don't take it personally. Greg

[02:11:01] really does have a great voice. I mean I love Greg and his voice but I like your accent so much

[02:11:06] pet me so. Oh my big fan of your voice. Thank you. Everyone doesn't like their own voice right?

[02:11:13] It's like something I've had to really struggle with and get past in order to to podcast and when I

[02:11:19] was just recording but not editing it was easier once I started editing my own voice. Yeah I would be like

[02:11:25] there were times that I had to stop and walk away from the computer because I'd be like oh I hate that

[02:11:30] shut up Penny. I'm not crazy. The voices are podcast that are beautiful like there's so many

[02:11:37] of the hosts and Pocka Ska that like I could just listen to them reading I don't know the newspaper

[02:11:44] to me every day and yeah and it's the variation too. Yeah and the variation of them that's what I like

[02:11:51] um Penny about the podcast that you do with Greg is that your voice is contrast nicely and

[02:11:55] this is same thing with Jason and Lucy like it's really cool to have kind of slightly different

[02:11:59] accents and different timbres of voice which is cool. I love femme Greg how you say Gigi the HK

[02:12:06] that's gonna be how he is in my mind now and it actually reminds me of your time I haven't seen it before

[02:12:11] but every time one of them comes in and goes hi King oh say they're going hi King.

[02:12:17] Hi King that's hilarious. Oh I've also seen on the internet that there's a whole

[02:12:24] Guil Daddy movement. Oh there's like a little like a man's of Guil Gallaud who are calling him either

[02:12:30] Guil Daddy or Guil Guil Daddy which is appropriate when we're discussing Greg too because he may

[02:12:36] have a nickname on it's a beautiful. I love that and actually the actor that plays

[02:12:45] on Guil Gallaud as well when you look at interviews he's one of the ones who sounds and looks

[02:12:49] more the most different from his character even though you know his face is not very different

[02:12:53] sometimes he's got a bit of facial here or whatever but he's so different in his accent you know

[02:12:57] because he's American as well so it sounds really different from Guil Gallaud so it's quite cool to see

[02:13:03] I love that. All right we got a few voice-bows this week as well.

[02:13:10] All right the first one is from Denise and it's for episode four. Hello ladies this is Denise

[02:13:17] offering some thoughts on episode four of Rings of Power. I kind of wanted to touch base a little bit

[02:13:25] on the three episode arc because there has been several podcasts have been talking about

[02:13:30] whether or not they should have dropped the three episodes at once or should have waited.

[02:13:35] But I personally was happy that they dropped the three episodes it gave us an opportunity for

[02:13:43] us to revisit the the eight arcs that we have been tracking since season one you know of course

[02:13:50] with Guil Gallauds or the Elrond, Sauron and Kellebremboard, Durlin and the Dwarves, the Suley

[02:13:56] Dwarves and Theo otherwise known as dumb and dumb are all things newmanor, ajar and his

[02:14:02] Mary band of works and of course the wanderer and the hobbits that's because basically that's what they

[02:14:09] are so it was nice to kind of do that once over the world there's also another kind of

[02:14:15] thought that I've been harboring in the back of my mind the actress who plays Guil Gallaudriel

[02:14:21] and her name escapes Mary now but she talked about there is a kiss in season two

[02:14:26] of Rings of Power and all I can say is that if better not be between her and Sauron because

[02:14:32] I will stroke if it is. I know that she is struggling with her feelings for Sauron because when

[02:14:41] she first met him she met him as Hallbrand and she was drawn to him for quite a bit and then found

[02:14:48] out that of course he was Sauron so I'm sure she's struggling with those feelings but I hope

[02:14:53] that show the show doesn't go there and have her kiss him if she kisses Elrond or well like

[02:14:59] goes on but she kisses Sauron I will stroke anyway it was great to see Tom Bombadil is nice to see

[02:15:07] that to show dedicated a lot of scream time to his character I was in shock that he was in as much as he

[02:15:18] was which is fine I'm not sure about whether or not he's going to show up in a future episodes

[02:15:23] of season two but it was nice to see him. I am a little bit concerned about Elrond and his

[02:15:31] attitudes towards Guiladriel he was really pissy in this episode towards her and he's the one

[02:15:36] that decided to go out and join this mission to go see about Killa Brimboer whether or not Sauron

[02:15:44] is there and deal with that whole matter and he's just so angry at Guiladriel right now

[02:15:49] and I'm just like what I reached through the screen and tell Elrond just take a down an

[02:15:54] notch guy just will support Guiladriel she needs you right now because she is struggling emotionally

[02:16:00] with Sauron right now so that's my issue that's my thoughts great episode look forward to your

[02:16:08] thanks to nice that was a lot um I love the idea that if she kisses Sauron you're going to stroke out

[02:16:16] that's just a lot of passion to have for a show and I really appreciate that kind of passion from

[02:16:22] a fan I hope you don't actually stroke out if that happens I hope that's a metaphor yeah

[02:16:28] I think it's going to be Killa Brimboer kissing Anna Tar by the end

[02:16:32] I'm sure they would be the most awkward kiss to have them like this too would be pretty

[02:16:38] interesting I could see Anna Tar forcing a kiss on Guiladriel yeah that's what i could

[02:16:48] see too. What's the blend of mirrored mirrored mirrored mirrored mirrored mirrored mirrored mirrored mirrored

[02:16:52] I could see that yeah well apparently it is actually um Guiladriel so we're more

[02:16:58] focused on the fact that I haven't read the whole article but when she spoke about the

[02:17:02] kiss it's Guiladriel's kiss it's going to shock and it's she specifically said it's been a

[02:17:06] shock viewers so yeah there's I can see your shipping bit Veronica

[02:17:11] I can't let her we want to let her I really don't even mean to wish you see an easy name come

[02:17:20] yeah I don't know I hope it's unwell I just felt yeah whatever the shock is I hope it's done well

[02:17:28] and yeah I hope it's true to her character mostly is the thing that I don't want them to.

[02:17:32] I guess stay on it. It could also be her in a somewhat like dream seeing state

[02:17:39] because she did already have that like vision where Kalebermourer came to her and then

[02:17:44] like got attacked by the tree or whatever so it could be her kissing saran but not actually

[02:17:50] I think I'm right it could be a vision of what it might be like if she joined Timber something

[02:17:55] oh there she doesn't have her ring ring now I don't know

[02:18:00] you sure still had some visions anyway without the way that's just a chance so maybe

[02:18:04] let's say it's good really to be shocked but not so shocked that Denise strikes out

[02:18:12] because Denise we want to keep hearing from you

[02:18:15] we also got a voicemail from our good friend Steve. Hello the cast of the ring

[02:18:21] this is Steve and this is for the rings of power season two I'm so trying to get caught up on

[02:18:28] the season I'm sorry I had been listening to the podcast as much as I can I'm not really

[02:18:32] not even caught up on the podcast but that first episode really helped me I'm glad I didn't

[02:18:36] try to live Steve it because half of it would have been huh what time frame is this who is this what

[02:18:42] eight are hall brand what um wait I thought it was just him and Glanzreal on that wreckage

[02:18:50] is this a flashback is this a new I don't know so that's why I kind of haven't the

[02:18:55] city thing in but I do appreciate your podcast I appreciate the mentions on when it was so

[02:19:00] great to meet you just a few months back in in the trip to New Zealand and I can't wait to again

[02:19:07] listen and get caught up and finally send a live Steve of course half that live Steve will

[02:19:12] probably be huh who is this wait what time frame are they in wait are these the elves or the

[02:19:19] dwarves or is this what heaven what I don't know I really need their podcast so anyway I appreciate

[02:19:25] you guys much love thank you so much can't wait to see whoever from the zeds is going to be

[02:19:31] in Galveston in a few weeks and yeah that's my plug for the patreon group to end the patreon

[02:19:37] group be part of the zed head community or not Adam you know it's great we love each other

[02:19:42] and it's a great time anyway thanks again I've gone way too long on saying nothing talked to you later

[02:19:50] thanks so much Steve are you're the best I absolutely love that we didn't get a live Steve but

[02:19:55] we got your own impression of yourself doing a live Steve and what they would have sounded like so

[02:19:59] thank you so much yeah it was very matter it was and it was it was wonderful to meet you

[02:20:05] a few months back where you came to visit our far green country and yeah I hope to see you again

[02:20:10] soon one day and thanks for the little plug for the patreon group too because I did want to

[02:20:14] mention that as well this time around if you're enjoying what we do and you really want to support

[02:20:20] the podcast connect work you can become a patreon and there is a really great way to support

[02:20:27] Jason who runs a network and all of the podcasts that you hear on the podcast connect work

[02:20:32] and it's a really great community to join a few join at a certain level you get to be part of

[02:20:36] the Facebook group and we have all kinds of social events we have um game nights and we have

[02:20:43] call-in shows just for patreon listeners and then we also have a whole bunch of meetups as well so

[02:20:48] over the last several years pretty much since um after the main part of the pandemic um the

[02:20:54] group has gotten together and various parts of most of the united states but also couple of

[02:20:58] meetups in Europe as well and it's just a really great way to connect with the fans um too so um

[02:21:04] peony just remind me the link I think it's patreon.com slash Jason Kabeesey is it right?

[02:21:09] yeah and we'll put it in the show right?

[02:21:11] Okay yeah it's a great place if you need some other fellow nerds to really nerd out about all the

[02:21:19] that podcast covers like we were just talking before the show and I found my people uh

[02:21:26] in this group so it's a lot of fun and sort of no matter what level you engage on like

[02:21:32] whether you're just chatting on Facebook about the most recent episode of the show or if you're

[02:21:38] going to the meetups like it's just been a really fun experience so I'm sure you can

[02:21:49] might be like to be involved in a podcast as well you can know that um all of us apart from Jason

[02:21:55] and Karen who started the started out as listeners and then we got to be part of the community

[02:22:00] left in voice males um started with some chat chats and things and then I'm went on to

[02:22:05] um to be involved in some of the podcast as guests and then went on to do our own podcasts as

[02:22:10] well so that's how we all got our start and it's just a really fun community to be part of.

[02:22:17] All right next voice male is also from Denise and it's about this episode.

[02:22:22] Hello ladies this is Denise, so I'm sending you some feedback on episode five.

[02:22:26] I did send some feedback for episode four but I missed your cut off so going forward I plan to

[02:22:32] send some feedback after each episode that I watch right after I watch it which is usually

[02:22:37] the minute it drops. So first and foremost, D-sum love that cave shot of her singing,

[02:22:44] reaching up into the air with that dim lid moonlight coming through at her searching for that

[02:22:51] tuning crystal that was a gorgeous shot. I swear to the show just loves to showcase her in that

[02:22:57] light that was just fantastic but I was glad she got out of there because I think she woke

[02:23:01] that bowerang and so I did not want her um being attacked by that bowerang so glad she got out of there.

[02:23:08] Farrison is coming into his power. I was really surprised that they accelerated his ascension to the

[02:23:14] throne of that was fast so they just kind of blew past all that other in between stuff which I think

[02:23:20] the show was going to be doing obviously but yeah we're going to see Farrison truly coming into

[02:23:26] his power here for sure and then of course HR wants to align with gladrial obviously in his pursuit

[02:23:35] of Sauron I thought he's going to kill her in Thor and a heap and be done with it but nope

[02:23:40] he's going to continue forward and of course a killer brimbrewer is starting to realize that

[02:23:47] Anatar may not be all who he is cracked up to be. That's a good thing so and there's some

[02:23:54] side commented I wanted to talk about a little bit or touch-based on a little bit and that is some

[02:23:59] of the fandom or so-called fans who are paving on the show I just saw a TikTok here not too long

[02:24:07] though where people were comparing cinematography, Lord of Rings, the cinematography to

[02:24:13] rings a power as if that was content and I was like where did you get your high school diploma from

[02:24:18] a cracker jack box? That's apples to you know benches. Stop that. So this is one of the few shows

[02:24:27] that I believe you need to read the books because when Anatar mentioned bearing and he was talking

[02:24:34] about oh we've had great you know men in the past who have risen up against you know great

[02:24:40] travails and I said do you not recall what you did to bear in. I mean I mean bearing and Lutheran is

[02:24:48] one incredibly powerful book it will drop your job from big pretty much from beginning to end

[02:24:54] it's just the most craziest book and for people to truly understand rings of power I think they

[02:25:00] need to really understand and read some of the books leading up to the second age and and I think

[02:25:06] that's a struggle for great many people in the fandom who just are trying to watch for the share

[02:25:11] enjoyment but realizing there I'm gonna have to go pick up the similarity. Otherwise I look forward

[02:25:16] to listening to your thoughts have a good day. I don't think that's Denise I don't think she

[02:25:24] is wrong but there is another option you can listen to this podcast and and when in Penny we'll

[02:25:32] break it down for you and then you don't have to read. That's it. Thanks to Denise I love what

[02:25:38] you say about the story of Beron and Lutheran and just to be clear Beron and Lutheran is a chapter

[02:25:44] in the Somerillion and then it is expanded in a longer version and is separately released book

[02:25:50] but it's always recommended that you read the chapter in the Somerillion first because it's quite

[02:25:54] cohesive and tells the whole story whereas the book itself is kind of edited by Christopher Tolke and

[02:26:01] actually kind of goes into different versions of the story so it's a bit more stop and start like

[02:26:06] you get this and then you get there and then my father wrote this my father wrote that. So if you just

[02:26:10] want the full story just go it's not a massively long chapter but it's in the Somerillion to just

[02:26:14] grab a copy and read that. Again the other option is the audiobooks are really good as well so

[02:26:22] I believe this one that's read by Andy Circus which is supposed to be amazing so that's

[02:26:27] highly recommended too just love everything he does and also has voices of credible so that's a

[02:26:33] good option and then the other thing with Somerillion too is that one of the things you can do is

[02:26:41] read each chapter and then go and find a podcast that covers the Somerillion in more detail.

[02:26:48] The one that I really love is the Laura Hounds and they are actually doing a month by month

[02:26:54] chapter by chapter of the Somerillion so each month alongside their rings of power and other shows

[02:26:59] it they cover they are doing a delve into each of the chapters of the Somerillion so

[02:27:05] and there are still only partway through so you have to have a bit of patience one month

[02:27:09] of your chapter or you can wait a year or so and then go back and do the whole lot but I found

[02:27:14] that really helpful reading the Somerillion to look at each chapter separately and have that

[02:27:18] kind of really broken down as to what it means and quite an easy to understand way. The way

[02:27:23] Tolkien writes these kind of older parts of the history he doesn't write in a kind of modern novel way

[02:27:31] where you introduce a character and you describe them and you talk about them and you tell the

[02:27:35] background and where they fit in the story. He just mentions all these names of characters and

[02:27:38] so it does take the second or third read through to actually understand what he's talking about.

[02:27:44] So I highly recommend that one if you want to go and have a little lesson of the Somerillion

[02:27:49] they call the Laura Hounds and there are a hopes of other ones out there as well that cover

[02:27:53] that background too so lots and lots of stuff to enjoy.

[02:27:58] Alright our final voice mail is from Sam. Hi Ann, what in Penny? Sam! Thank you so much for answering

[02:28:06] my questions from last week's episode. It helps a lot and I went back and we watched the episodes

[02:28:11] from this season with a little bit more information and that helped me just sort of put together more

[02:28:15] of the plot lines. I really really liked this week's episode and I think that is due in no small

[02:28:22] part to the fact we didn't have the hard-foot storyline. I know some people are really liking it but for

[02:28:27] me I just I'm not at all interested. I want to keep with the momentum of the other story lines

[02:28:33] so I mean it was just so good this week and I mean the first thing that comes to mind is

[02:28:40] Valindeele's murder. The cold blooded murder, it was awful and I actually watched the last half

[02:28:46] of that episode during my lunch break at work and I fell on guilt when he got home down in the back

[02:28:52] by Jafri Barathe in the second it seems like. I knew it was coming because they did

[02:28:59] or played that trope a bit before on other series. It's like I can kind of see this camera angle

[02:29:04] line up. It didn't matter it still startled me and broke my heart and I mean it went Ellen Deel

[02:29:12] like held him and was so upset I just saw a little cherry on because his poem was and through

[02:29:18] it and he is such a good man and it was just a beautifully shot and acted and I just thought

[02:29:26] such a wonderful scene putting inside the temple and I got with up with a camera and maybe everyone

[02:29:32] else saw this coming but I didn't. He was a nerdy kid in the first season and he was always trying

[02:29:36] to impress people. I did not see this sadistic twist in him coming like his dad gives him a little

[02:29:44] bit of power and now suddenly he is beyond cruel. I know in the behind the scene they said that

[02:29:51] he was trying to impress his dad and we had seen do cruel things. I'm like fit for a reason that

[02:29:59] hasn't done this kind of stuff like what are you talking about? Like I don't know it just

[02:30:04] it seemed to come out of nowhere and me it's because he's like a teenager I don't know but

[02:30:09] I gasped when he shattered the statue and I mean it was just all of it was awful but like trying

[02:30:17] to drown an unarmed man and then stabbing him in the back I mean and then washing the sword

[02:30:23] in the holy water like sir I hope you die an awful awful death like I have not hated the character

[02:30:31] this much in quite a while. It could've goes to the actor because he really sold it like I get

[02:30:37] why I am Aryan. All right and Ellen deals daughter I get why she's acting a little bit rougher

[02:30:45] with the power she's making given she's dealing with grief and you know I guess I'll give her

[02:30:49] some grace with that but Kenan's awful. I so I thought that was amazing. Another great storyline

[02:30:56] I thought was watching Sauron or Amitars just persuasion of Kalibdinboor it's really fascinating to

[02:31:07] watch him do it and I'm like oh this is some smart psychology tracks I like it.

[02:31:12] Is I'm looking for his why was Kalibdinboor's hand shaping at the end like like because he doesn't

[02:31:20] believe what he's saying or I don't know I didn't I didn't really understand that like what was going

[02:31:26] on for him. Another thing I didn't really understand when Murdanya was had the ring on and she was in

[02:31:35] the other plane of existence or whatever. She saw someone with broomskin and flames and is that

[02:31:43] Sauron's true form I tried googling it and Google like kept bringing up that he looks like an angel

[02:31:48] I don't know I'm really confused was that crispy critter that she saw

[02:31:53] Murdha I don't know I'm very confused so if you know that that will be great too

[02:31:58] and I just really I thought it was interesting how Sauron seems to be flirting with everyone

[02:32:06] he's like he looks like a couple of arguments or it just looks like you're trying to flirt with her

[02:32:11] so like on a harder note is I think we're kind of watching the flow of Kazaduma happen

[02:32:18] that was it's a little bit rough to watch I mean we know we know from fellowship

[02:32:22] of the ring it's not a spoiler because I do horrible things happen we know this and we're just sort

[02:32:29] of seeing this decline from this beautiful civilization and watching King Durin fall susceptible

[02:32:33] to whatever the ring is doing to him is really sad to watch kind of reminds me of like dementia

[02:32:40] or severe mental illness for a loved one like you just see this person disappear before you're

[02:32:46] rising you can't stop it and neither can they to a degree I'm really concerned that Prince Durin

[02:32:52] will be able to keep his promise to Disa and I don't want my favorite couple to go away so

[02:32:58] hoping that ends well but as we kind of know it doesn't so super super excited to hear the

[02:33:05] pod and I can't wait to hear what y'all have to say thanks Sam there's a lot there dip to think

[02:33:16] about yeah Anatar is flirting but like his eyes are dead inside so it's it's always just

[02:33:25] a population of the population yeah differently I think Calibre and Boy shaking is just an

[02:33:32] indication of him starting to lose the plot he's starting to crack under the pressure and you know

[02:33:37] if we've seen the trailers you can see that kind of extreme fear though so I think that's

[02:33:42] the beginning of what we're seeing we're starting to doubt himself and has even his reality I think

[02:33:46] yeah but yeah yeah and what you say about human I think they've planted the seeds quite nicely

[02:33:53] to show that he's not just good good, good suddenly evil I think we are seeing some

[02:33:58] regrets on his face and I think that he is wanting not only the not necessarily a

[02:34:04] great in this last scene but you can see I can see how he led to that final scene of killing

[02:34:10] Valindil partly for the wanting to impress his father but also the seeds of jealousy that we saw when

[02:34:18] Aarion offered to to basically pardon Valindil and you could see Kim and looking over and he

[02:34:24] really likes the Aarion so he's super jealous I think that that was what helps and rage him even more

[02:34:31] and the shrine there when he was about to attack Valindil so I think we've seen it grow yeah and also

[02:34:35] I can I can believe it I've seen in the pub Valindil really amasculated come in in front of his

[02:34:42] father and his girlfriend and I don't think Kim was going to get over that that was a that was a

[02:34:50] really really harsh moment for him he had it coming in my opinion but it sucks to be dressed down

[02:34:58] in front of your family and your girlfriend absolutely and Valindil is like everything he's not

[02:35:04] right he's like athletic and handsome and self assured there's a lot of jealousy there

[02:35:11] yeah and even just sort of knowing that that Valindil is so true and well to his one cause whereas

[02:35:18] Kim and his kind of being asked to take aside I think that probably adds to his kind of torment

[02:35:25] within and I hope that we still see him show some remorse and that's also where I see him as being

[02:35:31] really different from job-free that is not just like this awful person I think he's he's been

[02:35:35] led to make these choices and he's going to have to follow that path and deal with it but

[02:35:38] I don't think it's going to be easy for him that's why he's more like Sebastian Milton Sebastian

[02:35:45] yeah was a giant weenie but also his mother was a nightmare and she created him and

[02:35:52] fair zone is a horror person yeah you can see where it's coming from for sure yeah well that was

[02:36:00] brilliant thanks so much everybody for your feedback and if you want to write an all-leave us a

[02:36:05] as you can find all our content information at podcastgoed.com we would absolutely love to hear from

[02:36:10] you and if it's not for a currently episode and you're a little bit behind please just go ahead

[02:36:15] and send us a voice mail or you can catch us on our Facebook pages as well we'll put all the

[02:36:20] links in the show notes and well you're there at podcastgoed.com you can find all our other podcasts

[02:36:27] including the House of the Dragon which is wrapped up recently where Veronica is one of the hosts

[02:36:31] and I really really enjoyed listening to that so thank you Veronica what have you been listening

[02:36:36] too lately um you know I have still just been having all blasts with the main cast of us feed they've

[02:36:43] been going back and doing a rewatch of the walking dead and so we're in season three three yeah

[02:36:50] getting close to the end of season three or at least half about halfway through um I'm a few I

[02:36:55] think I'm like one episode behind right now but that has just been a real blast to go back and sort

[02:37:00] revisit it with everyone um and soon on that feed Darrell Dixon is coming back so I'm very excited

[02:37:08] about about Darrell Dixon I'm actually going to France next week and I'm gonna go see Montsait

[02:37:14] Michelle so a little bit of Darrell Dixon. Amazing tourism and it will be exciting to see that show

[02:37:21] come back and to see that coverage from podcast to go so that is so cool fantastic come on just

[02:37:28] think for us it's gonna be awesome that's fantastic you have to pose it darling I'll bring my

[02:37:33] I'll bring my love leather vest I never travel without it and again like nerdy or you have to be

[02:37:39] dirty definitely oh I'll skip plash in my hair all week you know why not look growth in France

[02:37:45] oh wait when he was there didn't he have a shower something at one point she takes a bath

[02:37:50] and I like it is a bath yeah because maybe he didn't know yeah so it'll be okay for me to be

[02:37:55] clean I do need to have some little suspenders I think yeah yeah suspenders and a little frame jumpa yeah

[02:38:04] also coming soon this is a little self-plug we're gonna start covering the new Agatha all

[02:38:10] along series that that's gonna be on Disney Plus it's starring Catherine Han who is brilliant in

[02:38:19] everything she does but was incredibly memorable in the wand of Disney series and

[02:38:25] the show drops on Wednesday the 18 and our coverage will come out several days after that they're

[02:38:35] dropping two episodes at once it's gonna take us a little while to cover the first drop

[02:38:39] and then we'll go we'll be weekly after that and we're really looking forward to it

[02:38:46] can't wait this is going to be amazing see I loved one division and her character was fantastic

[02:38:50] in there and this sort of spin-off all the next the next kind of part of the story is going to be great

[02:38:55] watch that I really enjoyed the trial and look some kind of a test is amazing like some of these

[02:39:00] are actors that I've loved for years and years and years and testing I also wanted to just remind

[02:39:09] people that in the US at least voter registration deadlines are coming up in a lot of states

[02:39:15] and wherever you are if you check vote dot gov or vote dot org or vote save america dot com all

[02:39:24] those places will help you figure out if you are registered to vote or not in your state

[02:39:29] if you need to update your registration how to update your registration all that information can be

[02:39:36] found I just I urge everyone to vote whichever side you're on please vote it's really important

[02:39:45] and worldwide as well whatever country you're in you can search that up as well and just see if

[02:39:50] registered to vote whether it's your country's elections or even local elections it's all really important

[02:39:56] to have you say so I agree get out there and see if you can have you say now we're going to venture

[02:40:04] into gladruals mera so this is where we're going to discuss possible spoilers well definite

[02:40:09] spoilers for what might happen in future episodes future seasons as well we'll compare how the

[02:40:16] compares discuss how the show compares to the book and some of the things that we might have a next

[02:40:21] so if you don't want to be spoiled we will see you next time but if you are keen join us now

[02:40:27] for gladruals mera will you look into the minute what will I see things that were

[02:40:36] things that are and some things that have not yet come to pass all right so I've got a few

[02:40:45] things to talk about this this week I want to start with the fate of the dwarven rings so we see

[02:40:52] in the episode the dwarven rings start to get handed out King Dron has has has ring and he's

[02:40:57] starting to talk to the emissaries about hand them out to the other dwarven kings the ring that

[02:41:03] that Dron gets is called the Ring of Thore and dwarven tradition it was said that Calibran

[02:41:08] Ballgate and this ring before the downfall of Eirigion but in other versions it says that

[02:41:14] it's unlikely because Calibran Ballgate was supposed to have yielded the seven all of the seven

[02:41:20] rings to saron after his torture so we've talked before about how saron is going to get pretty

[02:41:26] nasty with Calibran Ballgate the location of all of the dwarven rings out of him by torture

[02:41:32] but Tolkien did change his story quite often what is Surtian is that the ring of Thore was the first

[02:41:37] of the seven dwarven rings to be forged and it was the last one to be recovered by saron

[02:41:44] so in some versions like I said saron himself gave the dwarves their rings of power

[02:41:48] but and all of the versions pretty much this one here was given to Dron by Calibran Ball and

[02:41:54] supposedly remained in the line of the house of Dron for thousands of years so like with most of

[02:41:59] Tolkien you do get a little bit of variation in the story in terms of the background

[02:42:04] but I also wanted to read a little bit from the appendices of the Lord of the Rings because this

[02:42:08] gives us a really good description about what the Rings of Power the dwarven ones meant to

[02:42:15] the characters and how they were affected by them. As the dwarves now believe saron by his

[02:42:22] arts had discovered who had this ring the last to remain free and that the singular

[02:42:26] misfortunes of the ears of Dron were largely due to his malice for the dwarves had proved

[02:42:31] untamable by this means the only power over them that the rings wielded was to inflame their hearts

[02:42:36] with a greed of gold and precious things so that if they lacked them all other good things seemed

[02:42:41] profitless and there were filled with wrath and desire for vengeance on all who deprived them

[02:42:46] but there were made from the beginning of a kind to resist most steadfastly in a domination

[02:42:51] though they could be slain or broken they could not be reduced to shadows and slaves to another

[02:42:55] well and for the same reason their lives were not affected by any ring to either live longer or shorter

[02:43:00] because of it or the more did saron hate the possessors and desire to dispossess them. So really

[02:43:07] like that because it shows you a few different things so you've got the fact that the dwarves are not

[02:43:11] overly influenced by the ring in terms of being under the real power of saron it doesn't diminish

[02:43:16] their life or change their life or extend their life in the way like some of the other rings do

[02:43:20] and they couldn't be be dominated really by him which is one of the reasons why he yeah he didn't

[02:43:27] so I thought that was really cool to see and I like how they portrayed some of that in the

[02:43:33] and that you've pursued this time as well. So wait is Duran the fourth going to where the ring

[02:43:39] do we do you know if he's going to break? I haven't seen anywhere that he wears it. No I haven't

[02:43:46] seen anywhere that he wears it so I really hope that they don't go there they could do it for story reasons

[02:43:53] I'm not sure and it's quite put into that she makes him swear not to. Yeah I was going to say I can't

[02:43:58] imagine any other reason for that scene of having him swear not to other than

[02:44:03] that he's going to end up wearing it. Yeah yeah for sure yeah well hopefully they do it in a way

[02:44:11] that makes sense for us a little bit. The other thing I wanted to go into is phares on so we talked

[02:44:17] about how more really seeking immortality he's he's mentioned that already to come in on screen

[02:44:22] in the book it is much later when he's actually nearing the end of his life that he

[02:44:27] starts to really be tempted by the idea of immortality and trying to get it. So what happens is he

[02:44:33] takes this mighty army to mid-learth to confront sarans this is after what we're going to be seeing

[02:44:38] in the Battle of the Region and it's such a mighty and daunting army that saran actually still renders

[02:44:44] and hands himself in to phares on you know it's saran so he's probably doing it on purpose to

[02:44:50] get to his next part of his plot but phares I'd actually take some prisoner back to Numenor

[02:44:56] and over a number of years now I'm slowly corrupts phares on and he gives him the idea to sail

[02:45:02] to valenor and demand immortality and so it's right at that towards the end of his long life

[02:45:06] that phares on decides to do this and obviously they're crunching the timeline to make it make

[02:45:11] sense for us on screen and when he sails to valenor and demands immortality that's when it

[02:45:17] the god creator sends a wave to a gold for Numenor and that's how we see the downfall of Numenor

[02:45:25] and I've said it before it sounds terrible about I can't wait to say it's gonna be amazing.

[02:45:30] I don't want to happen but we know it's going to and it made me sort of think about the vision

[02:45:35] of the wave so Mary Mary I was had this vision every time she's locked and she mentioned this

[02:45:40] time that she's for years has locked into the palentere and seen the same vision and she was

[02:45:45] surprised when she finds out that Elendial did not see this vision of the wave. She says she thinks

[02:45:51] that the vision has changed. I personally don't think that it has changed I think each person at

[02:45:56] this point sees their own fate and the and the palentere and that if she were to put her hands

[02:46:02] on it again she'd probably still see it because that will be her fate and I think that that

[02:46:08] Elendial was seeing his fate which is to leave the city and go to the other side of the island

[02:46:12] because Elendial is the one along with in the story along with his two sons sealed or an anary on

[02:46:18] who take a fleet of nine ships and they actually get to a scape numenor and then go

[02:46:22] sit on the middle of the earth so I think he's seeing what's going to happen next for him

[02:46:27] when stuff goes even worse and numenor he's gonna or in this in the city he's gonna leave and go

[02:46:32] to the other side of the island. So Mary I'll see sees the vision of the wave and it's a very powerful

[02:46:39] vision and it is something that I hope they do show on screen for us because Mary I'll in the book

[02:46:47] when everything's happening with the wave coming she basically tries to get to the top of

[02:46:53] a minil timer that sacred peak before the island is an undated and completely flooded

[02:46:57] but the great waves sweeper off the side of the mountain so that's a really strong visual

[02:47:03] and I really do hope we see and they don't miss with that because I think a lot of the fans

[02:47:07] of the book who really want to see that and I've seen before I think as long as they stick with

[02:47:12] the main themes and the main facets of the characters on the flym with other changes but I think

[02:47:19] major character deaths have to stay the same is what they are in the book and that's one of the ones

[02:47:24] that I really want to see are haggling. That doesn't seem like something that they should change.

[02:47:30] Why? I mean it seemed like this episode that we left that the hypocrite ferries on is about to

[02:47:37] use the palliant here so why isn't he seeing the destruction that he's eventually going to

[02:47:43] cause if he's also looking into it? I don't know and I wonder whether they'll show us what he sees.

[02:47:53] Maybe he sees himself going towards a melon or and he just thinks oh cool yeah I can do that

[02:48:00] but he's only seeing part of his vision yeah it's it's not clear whether the the palliant here

[02:48:06] is not supposed to be a good or a bad thing those are the stones that that have various powers

[02:48:11] depending on who uses them and when and so I think maybe it just depends and it just absorbs

[02:48:16] what is right or true for that person and then they end up seeing that. Did he actually touch it

[02:48:21] in that he didn't actually touch it but he looked at you about to our yelled hypocrite.

[02:48:26] He was doing it. Yeah like I'd dare you take your place because of the priest.

[02:48:31] Yeah I know you would and still maybe angry. Yeah yeah definitely. The other thing too that I've

[02:48:41] seen a huge amount out there on the on the interwebs is speculating about what's going to happen

[02:48:46] to some of the characters and are they going to turn into some of the well-known characters

[02:48:50] that we know from the daughter of the rings the biggest one is is Kemen going to become a ring

[02:48:55] so we see him going down towards the start path. We do know that's three of the the rings of

[02:49:02] men I'd given to Numanorians so it's potential that he could be given one and could end up as a ring

[02:49:08] worth and there's a lot of people saying that they do think that he's going to end up

[02:49:12] the real big bad of the ring rathes the witch king of angmar so I don't know where they're going

[02:49:18] with that but I can see people speculating over that and yeah I think he's got a long way to go

[02:49:23] get to that point. Yeah if it is the case then yeah yeah for I won't get kidding him a minute

[02:49:31] him to be a little bit less than a shite head to end up as the witch king like or as the

[02:49:38] king of the ring rathes like he just seems like too much but he had to let it's a ratty child right now

[02:49:44] I mean I have a hard time believing he's who it comes the big bad yeah he I've also seen

[02:49:53] speculation that he will become the mouth of souron which was depicted in the movies as that like

[02:50:00] gruesome like giant tooth like that I could get out of it. Yeah I like that first like the physical

[02:50:07] representation of what I think he looks like inside. Yeah because he's more like a leaky and

[02:50:14] that could be that could be interesting and the other the other major one that I've seen as well

[02:50:18] is is the yoga going to become either a ring rath or some other dark force. The one that I've

[02:50:25] also seen is is you're going to become the king of the dead and I think out of all of the speculation

[02:50:31] that's probably the most realistic from what we've seen so far and that he has a relationship

[02:50:35] already with a sealed or they've talked together along with our endier as well about making

[02:50:41] promises and keeping promises so they've said the seeds are a little bit there where I

[02:50:45] have a potentially could make some kind of oath to sealed or in the break at later so

[02:50:48] that will be interesting to see where they go with the oh and that regard to. I hope it's that

[02:50:53] I don't want to see him become like true evil I feel like that fits more with the oh of like

[02:51:00] sort of messing things up because of emotions but not becoming like a ring rath.

[02:51:09] Yeah yeah yeah the hazard has the potential to become a leader potentially in that area and then

[02:51:15] and the actual area itself geographically suits that theory as well so again it's just I don't

[02:51:24] know how much time we're going to see past between now and what happens at the very end of the

[02:51:31] the series which I personally think that the series is leading up to the end of season five being

[02:51:36] the the bed of the last alliance when we see Sarah and have the ring cut from his hand so

[02:51:40] leaving us right up to the start the prologue of the the pet Jackson movies and so again crunching

[02:51:46] the timeline you know he's a human child at this point what are we going to see um in terms of

[02:51:51] his how much of his future are we going to see play out yeah it's hard to know. We've got a few

[02:51:57] years. Because even in just like another let what it's taken about two years for a new season to drop

[02:52:02] and so think about just the actor that's portraying the other himself is going to become a man.

[02:52:08] I mean he already even just from even during the first season he grew up quite a bit um and so

[02:52:15] I think you know he may grow into just a long and actual timeline timeline the the the man

[02:52:23] he's going to age into in the show potentially yeah yeah because he's actually the the actor

[02:52:30] plays him Tyroma herfadion is um 19 now so if you think about another six years um if they are

[02:52:37] dropping every two years then yeah we're different they're going to see him mature and I think

[02:52:41] I think we did see a difference you know between has been 17 and being 19 from season one to season two

[02:52:46] so it's going to be really obviously what they do with that for sure. And I've been also thinking

[02:52:52] a lot I really I'm with you Veronica I I do enjoy the half-its it's sometimes had to watch

[02:52:59] because I've said this before I think they aren't connected to the main story at this point and so

[02:53:05] sometimes when we pop over there too ruin it's kind of like oh it takes me out of the story a little bit

[02:53:09] but I don't enjoy what's happening there and I'm I think we talked about um you know

[02:53:15] it being really hard to wait to see if the stranger is Gandalf because you're all pretty sure

[02:53:19] years but it's dragging on and on and it's harder when you have an episode like this where

[02:53:23] they're not even in it. They're kind of like we have to wait another whole week um and I've been

[02:53:27] thinking a lot about that and looking forward to hopefully seeing them again next week um and just

[02:53:34] thinking about Bomberdill and how he's met with the with the stranger and I've made the

[02:53:39] prediction before that I think that um the stranger is Gandalf I think you know we've had it

[02:53:44] telegraphed so so well that he's got his data finder staff who's going to find his staff by the end

[02:53:49] of this season and I also think he's going to get his hat and if you've seen pictures of Tom

[02:53:54] Bomberdill we haven't seen him wearing his hat in this um and this portrayal but um he's very well

[02:53:59] known for having this pointy kind of wizard like hat and I think Bomberdill is going to give Gandalf

[02:54:03] his hat it's going to have his hat and his staff will be going to see that the end so that's

[02:54:07] going to be cool there happens. Still heaps people up there who say there's no way it can be it's

[02:54:12] just blue wizard and yeah I will find out I think the dark wizard is not going to be a

[02:54:24] mix so that they have one wizard that's twist no this is a blue wizard it's not a ceremony all

[02:54:29] haha thought it was but I don't think there's any way that they don't capitalize on

[02:54:35] on this being Gandalf even though it's the wrong timing and blah blah blah I think this was a

[02:54:40] thoughtful calculated decision that they made in condensing the timelines and still

[02:54:46] bringing in things that more casual viewers will connect with and I think it would be a missed opportunity

[02:54:52] for them to make it a random wizard even though if you're actually looking at the

[02:54:59] timelines and being a you know true to the lore it wouldn't be right but I think from a

[02:55:08] production standpoint makes a lot more sense that this is Gandalf and as a fan I wanted to be Gandalf

[02:55:14] like that's more heartwarming to me definitely and up the payoff for so many people who know

[02:55:21] nothing about lore to the rings you've probably still heard of Gandalf and you probably

[02:55:24] nobody looks like and I think the percentage of people who know that the wizard's appeared in the year

[02:55:30] 1000 of the third age yes really in the great screen before out of 40 million viewers I don't

[02:55:36] think it's that many so I think you're right I think they're just going to go with what works for most

[02:55:40] people in the same reason that they brought a harfots in this because people like me who my introduction

[02:55:46] to the world was the harbour and you know to not have half links in the story would feel

[02:55:55] somewhat empty to me and I think it's why that piece of this is still so important to me because

[02:56:03] half links are the heart that I feel like Tolkien inserted into into the harbour and into Lord of the Rings

[02:56:11] and if you're going to bring that to a mainstream I think it would be disappointing to a lot of

[02:56:17] people not to have hints of that whether it's accurate or not yeah agree yeah for sure

[02:56:27] fantastic well that was an epic journey into mid-earth and beyond thank you so much Veronica

[02:56:35] for joining us we really love having you here thank you guys for having me it was an honor

[02:56:40] and really fun and I think this is going to be a long podcast so hope everyone enjoyed listening to us talk

[02:56:46] because I got chatty and just loved getting to nerd out about what are the rings with the two of you

[02:56:52] so thank you you've you've come to the right place

[02:56:57] exactly thank you so much already everybody that's our show

[02:57:01] and thank you all of you for listening to us the songs of those we have lost year in full peace

[02:57:09] tonight we will help them find it until we meet again in a far green country under a swift sunrise