23: "Doomed to Die" (S2E7)

[00:00:00] [SPEAKER_08]: Hmm? Ah!

[00:00:04] [SPEAKER_08]: Hmm...

[00:00:04] [SPEAKER_08]: I'm asking you...

[00:00:10] [SPEAKER_09]: I'm sorry.

[00:00:12] [SPEAKER_06]: I brought in here.

[00:00:16] [SPEAKER_06]: I'm sorry, I wasn't stronger.

[00:00:18] [SPEAKER_02]: Me, Therothus, was strong enough.

[00:00:22] [SPEAKER_02]: There might not be any one in Middle Earth who is...

[00:00:26] [SPEAKER_02]: But perhaps...

[00:00:29] [SPEAKER_02]: The else need only remember...

[00:00:31] [SPEAKER_02]: That it is not strength...

[00:00:34] [SPEAKER_02]: But ever comes darkness...

[00:00:38] [SPEAKER_02]: But light...

[00:00:40] [SPEAKER_02]: Army's may rise...

[00:00:44] [SPEAKER_02]: Hearts may fail...

[00:00:46] [SPEAKER_02]: Yet still, light in due...

[00:00:50] [SPEAKER_02]: That is mightier than strength...

[00:00:56] [SPEAKER_02]: For in its presence...

[00:01:00] [SPEAKER_02]: All darkness must flee.

[00:01:23] [SPEAKER_05]: Greetings, Elvin Archer's...

[00:01:25] [SPEAKER_05]: We're going to do Rook drummers, repeating mouses, desperate dwarf princes and laughing trolls.

[00:01:31] [SPEAKER_05]: Welcome to our podcast, I'm Penny.

[00:01:33] [SPEAKER_05]: And I'm Rene.

[00:01:35] [SPEAKER_05]: And this is The Cast of the Rings Episode 23.

[00:01:39] [SPEAKER_07]: This episode we're going to cover season 2 episode 7 of The Rings of Power,

[00:01:46] [SPEAKER_07]: Doomed To Die.

[00:01:48] [SPEAKER_05]: Welcome to The Podcast Rene.

[00:01:50] [SPEAKER_05]: Listeners, you may recognize Rene's voice as that of Arch Master Rene from the excellent house of the dragon coverage on podcastica.

[00:02:01] [SPEAKER_05]: Rene, how are you enjoying Rings of Power this season?

[00:02:04] [SPEAKER_07]: Well, I would like to say to the citizens of Middle Earth...

[00:02:08] [SPEAKER_07]: I bring you greetings from Westeros.

[00:02:13] [SPEAKER_07]: I imagine there's a lot overlap.

[00:02:15] [SPEAKER_07]: I'm sure there is.

[00:02:17] [SPEAKER_07]: Also, doesn't Annatar look like he could be a Targaryen 100%.

[00:02:24] [SPEAKER_07]: So, I think this season is much better than season 1.

[00:02:29] [SPEAKER_07]: As you and on one have been talking about in the podcast,

[00:02:34] [SPEAKER_07]: The Pace is much better than season 1.

[00:02:36] [SPEAKER_07]: They just had so much establishing to do in season 1 that now things can actually happen

[00:02:41] [SPEAKER_07]: and we can get character development and plot advancement.

[00:02:45] [SPEAKER_07]: So, I've liked it better than season 1.

[00:02:48] [SPEAKER_05]: Sometimes it's even a little too fast.

[00:02:51] [SPEAKER_05]: I'm like, whoa, we're already there.

[00:02:53] [SPEAKER_05]: But that's way better than slow.

[00:02:58] [SPEAKER_05]: And I've been impressed all the way along, of course, with the aesthetic elements of the show.

[00:03:04] [SPEAKER_05]: But the acting I think is even better this season than last season.

[00:03:09] [SPEAKER_07]: Definitely.

[00:03:11] [SPEAKER_07]: And I want to say about the podcast that I really appreciate.

[00:03:16] [SPEAKER_07]: Annwins expertise on the source material.

[00:03:19] [SPEAKER_07]: On when kind of plays the role in this podcast that I play on Dragoncast.

[00:03:27] [SPEAKER_07]: And with Tolkien, I've read The Hobbit and The Main trilogy.

[00:03:32] [SPEAKER_07]: And I've read the appendices of the main trilogy, which is the material that they have the rights to for this series.

[00:03:39] [SPEAKER_07]: But I haven't read The Silmerillion.

[00:03:43] [SPEAKER_07]: So, Anwins is always listening to Galadriel's mirror section.

[00:03:48] [SPEAKER_07]: And Anwins just giving a lot of great background that is new to me because I haven't read The Silmerillion.

[00:03:53] [SPEAKER_07]: So, I just really appreciate what she's doing on the podcast.

[00:03:57] [SPEAKER_05]: I do too.

[00:03:58] [SPEAKER_05]: I love listening to her.

[00:04:00] [SPEAKER_05]: And it's funny because I think a lot of people think I'm as knowledgeable as she is.

[00:04:05] [SPEAKER_05]: Because you know, when they're listening, they're swept up in what she's saying.

[00:04:08] [SPEAKER_05]: And they don't really notice that mostly what I'm saying is, yeah.

[00:04:12] [SPEAKER_05]: Oh, that's so interesting.

[00:04:16] [SPEAKER_05]: It's been really, really fascinating learning from her.

[00:04:20] [SPEAKER_05]: And it has inspired me that I am going to try again to read The Silmerillion.

[00:04:26] [SPEAKER_05]: I tried when I was first reading The Lord of the Rings books and obsessed with them.

[00:04:31] [SPEAKER_05]: But I was like fifth grade or something.

[00:04:33] [SPEAKER_05]: I just didn't have it in me to get through The Silmerillion.

[00:04:36] [SPEAKER_05]: But I think we'll good for you for getting out.

[00:04:39] [SPEAKER_07]: The main books in the fifth grade because I started them when I was about 14.

[00:04:46] [SPEAKER_07]: And I stopped because the ring raves and the orcs were just too scary.

[00:04:51] [SPEAKER_07]: Oh, they are scary.

[00:04:53] [SPEAKER_07]: And I didn't go back to them until I was like 30.

[00:05:00] [SPEAKER_05]: That's fantastic.

[00:05:01] [SPEAKER_05]: I, at the time I lived overseas.

[00:05:06] [SPEAKER_05]: My family, we were military family, so we traveled a lot.

[00:05:10] [SPEAKER_05]: And we didn't have American television.

[00:05:12] [SPEAKER_05]: So I became an absolute rabid reader.

[00:05:17] [SPEAKER_05]: I read every book in the house and had weekly library trips where I would just like,

[00:05:24] [SPEAKER_05]: unload, like take a whole shelf and be like, I'll take all these.

[00:05:27] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.

[00:05:28] [SPEAKER_05]: So I was just like a crazy advanced reader at a young age because of it.

[00:05:34] [SPEAKER_05]: I think it's actually a good thing.

[00:05:36] [SPEAKER_05]: The funny side effect of those years and that happened to be Germany is that there,

[00:05:41] [SPEAKER_05]: there's a chunk of American pop culture that people my age will talk about that I just missed entirely.

[00:05:49] [SPEAKER_05]: I don't know what that is.

[00:05:50] [SPEAKER_05]: I don't know what you're talking about because it's like I was in Germany and it's like it didn't happen for me.

[00:05:56] [SPEAKER_05]: But it's like, um, we left the states when who shot J R was the big singer.

[00:06:06] [SPEAKER_05]: And I didn't find out who shot J R for four years.

[00:06:12] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.

[00:06:14] [SPEAKER_05]: I missed, I missed all of it.

[00:06:16] [SPEAKER_05]: Now, and then somebody would show up with a teacher that said, I shot J R.

[00:06:21] [SPEAKER_05]: And I'm really like, wait, who did shoot J R?

[00:06:24] [SPEAKER_05]: Like, so confused by it.

[00:06:28] [SPEAKER_07]: Anyway, didn't that all turn out just to be a dream?

[00:06:31] [SPEAKER_07]: The whole show or no, just that season.

[00:06:35] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, just that season.

[00:06:36] [SPEAKER_05]: I don't know something like that.

[00:06:38] [SPEAKER_07]: I recall that somebody, somebody who,

[00:06:42] [SPEAKER_05]: it was Wally who died and then turned out to his death was a dream.

[00:06:46] [SPEAKER_07]: Oh, that's his same thing as a dream.

[00:06:49] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.

[00:06:50] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.

[00:06:51] [SPEAKER_07]: Anyway, I'm so glad that we have much better television shows now.

[00:06:59] [SPEAKER_07]: There are, they're like novels in themselves even if they're not based on novels that they tell a coherent story with the beginning in a million and

[00:07:09] [SPEAKER_07]: a new one.

[00:07:09] [SPEAKER_07]: Then, just episodic TV, which is all that there was in the broadcast era.

[00:07:16] [SPEAKER_07]: So yeah, I'm, I'm much happier with the state of television these days than when I was a kid for sure.

[00:07:23] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, the quality is so much higher and the attention.

[00:07:26] [SPEAKER_07]: Also when I was a kid, TV was so sexist, misogynist, and enforcing of heteronormative patriarchy that I'm surprised I was able to grow up at all.

[00:07:39] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.

[00:07:39] [SPEAKER_05]: I mean, the only heroes that little girls had were, we had, when I was little, Wonder Woman, Charlie's Angels and these were, I mean they were heroic women but they were also hypersexualized.

[00:07:53] [SPEAKER_07]: Oh yeah.

[00:07:54] [SPEAKER_05]: So the message was like, if you want to be a main character, first of all there's generally only room for one woman in a story Princess Leia, you have to be super hot.

[00:08:05] [SPEAKER_05]: Right.

[00:08:05] [SPEAKER_05]: That's it.

[00:08:06] [SPEAKER_05]: Those are the choices.

[00:08:07] [SPEAKER_05]: Otherwise you're like a side character and you might not even have a name.

[00:08:12] Right.

[00:08:13] [SPEAKER_05]: Um, it's so much better now.

[00:08:15] [SPEAKER_07]: So much better.

[00:08:16] [SPEAKER_07]: We still have room, improvement but it is better.

[00:08:20] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, and continues to get better and better.

[00:08:23] [SPEAKER_07]: So let's get into it.

[00:08:24] [SPEAKER_07]: Where do you want to start?

[00:08:27] [SPEAKER_07]: Well, first I would like to start by saying, I think this is the best episode of the entire series so far.

[00:08:35] [SPEAKER_07]: In part because it is focused rather than scattered among too many storylines.

[00:08:42] [SPEAKER_07]: I think I think you know, a good episode that has up to maybe three storylines by the way, that more than that, it just, you know, it's unalty.

[00:08:52] [SPEAKER_07]: It's unwieldy.

[00:08:54] [SPEAKER_07]: And I also like that some of the storylines converge in this episode, you know, in a really satisfying way.

[00:09:00] [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.

[00:09:01] [SPEAKER_07]: But I would like to start for my first point with trying to fill in a bit for an one with some of the lore.

[00:09:10] [SPEAKER_07]: So I want to start with the title of the episode which is Doom to die.

[00:09:15] [SPEAKER_07]: And that comes from the ring verse that we hear in the main Lord of the Rings series.

[00:09:22] [SPEAKER_07]: There is a line inscribed in the one ring that can't be seen unless the ring is heated in the main trilogy Gandalf knows about this.

[00:09:30] [SPEAKER_07]: So he tosses it in the fire and the script appears.

[00:09:34] [SPEAKER_07]: And it's written in an elephant's script from Oregian, and now we're seeing Oregian.

[00:09:40] [SPEAKER_07]: And it's in the black speech translated into English.

[00:09:44] [SPEAKER_07]: It says, one ring to rule them all, one ring to find them, one ring to bring them all, and in the darkness bind them.

[00:09:54] [SPEAKER_07]: And so that's written on the one ring, which doesn't exist yet in this series.

[00:10:01] [SPEAKER_07]: But the rest of the verse was written and kept as part of Elven Lore and it goes, three rings for the Elven Kings under the sky.

[00:10:11] [SPEAKER_07]: Seven for the doorflords in their halls of stone.

[00:10:14] [SPEAKER_07]: Nine for mortal men, Doom to die, one for the Darth Lord on his dark throne, in the land of Mordor where the shadows lie.

[00:10:23] [SPEAKER_07]: One ring to rule them all, one ring to find them.

[00:10:27] [SPEAKER_07]: One ring to bring them and in the shadows bind them in the land of Mordor where the shadows lie.

[00:10:35] [SPEAKER_07]: So Episode 1 was called Elven Kings under the sky.

[00:10:40] [SPEAKER_07]: The line from the verse.

[00:10:42] [SPEAKER_07]: Episode 5 was called Pals of Stone, again from the verse, and this one is Doom to die.

[00:10:48] [SPEAKER_07]: So we have the three groups who have rings of power referred to as they're described in the verse in the episode titles, this season which I think is pretty cool.

[00:11:01] [SPEAKER_07]: And the first line of dialogue in this episode is Kellebrimborsing, nine, nine for mortal men.

[00:11:16] [SPEAKER_07]: Any still inside Sauron's illusion at that point making the rings, and the line in the verse is nine for mortal men, Doom to die.

[00:11:25] [SPEAKER_07]: So the next words, the ones who doesn't say are the title of the episode.

[00:11:30] [SPEAKER_07]: So it's like a mic drop title of the episode only it's unvoiced.

[00:11:35] [SPEAKER_07]: You have to know what the poem is to realize that those are the next.

[00:11:39] [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, it's so I just thought that was all pretty cool.

[00:11:41] [SPEAKER_05]: It's like a little signal or easter egg for the fans.

[00:11:46] [SPEAKER_05]: Exactly.

[00:11:47] [SPEAKER_05]: We've talked about this a lot that there's sort of different groups of fans.

[00:11:52] [SPEAKER_05]: There's the Tolken scholars, right?

[00:11:55] [SPEAKER_05]: Red everything, possibly have a Ph.D. in Tolken.

[00:11:59] [SPEAKER_05]: Like, yeah, there's those people.

[00:12:01] [SPEAKER_05]: Then there's the, and I sort of lumped those people together with just the super fans who've read pretty much everything or a lot of the side books and,

[00:12:09] [SPEAKER_05]: you know, regularly visit onering.net or Tolken Gateway.

[00:12:15] [SPEAKER_05]: Then there's the people who read the Lord of the Rings and the Hobbit probably when they were kids and then saw the movies and loved them.

[00:12:22] [SPEAKER_05]: And then there's the just saw the movies, bands.

[00:12:26] [SPEAKER_05]: And then there's people who are watching the show who have not seen the movies and have not read the books.

[00:12:31] [SPEAKER_05]: And the universe is just the show for them.

[00:12:35] [SPEAKER_07]: We can't imagine that.

[00:12:37] [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, I cannot imagine watching this series if you haven't watched the main trilogy.

[00:12:45] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, and I imagine that if they watched and liked season one,

[00:12:48] [SPEAKER_05]: they probably watched the main trilogy after that.

[00:12:52] [SPEAKER_05]: But I'm in a couple of different fan groups online and some of the comments people make.

[00:12:56] [SPEAKER_05]: Make me think that there are people who are just watching the show.

[00:12:59] [SPEAKER_05]: They'll say things like, is it me or souran kind of evil?

[00:13:04] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, souran is kind of evil.

[00:13:06] [SPEAKER_05]: You're right. That's very, very, very evil.

[00:13:10] [SPEAKER_05]: And I'm like, oh, this is the show washer.

[00:13:12] [SPEAKER_05]: This is not a person who has in the movies or read the books.

[00:13:16] [SPEAKER_05]: And I'm glad because this is an important fandom to me or universe to me and for it to grow,

[00:13:25] [SPEAKER_05]: you need to attract new fans.

[00:13:27] [SPEAKER_05]: And there are some super fans who are very annoyed by new fans.

[00:13:31] [SPEAKER_05]: But yes, I think a new fan is a good thing.

[00:13:34] [SPEAKER_05]: A new fan is someone who will go on to read the books and keep this universe going and give it a life.

[00:13:42] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, companies like Amazon are reason to make a barren and luthion TV show or we don't be awesome.

[00:13:49] [SPEAKER_05]: You know, like I want to see this show succeed and then I want to see more, you know,

[00:13:56] [SPEAKER_05]: the whole universe projects in the future.

[00:14:01] [SPEAKER_05]: And this show by all accounts is doing very well even though season two's ratings are a little lower than season one's.

[00:14:07] [SPEAKER_05]: They're still very, very high.

[00:14:10] [SPEAKER_05]: And I think that if they continue to be high that we're going to see another show.

[00:14:16] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, that would be great.

[00:14:19] [SPEAKER_05]: So I think that the circle back to your point,

[00:14:22] [SPEAKER_05]: I think that the creators are very aware of these different group of fans and they add things like making those the titles and referencing that verse.

[00:14:33] [SPEAKER_05]: Or the more sophisticated fans so that they have something to be like,

[00:14:37] [SPEAKER_05]: Ah, I get an extra thing and they're serving all of the different levels of fans simultaneously,

[00:14:43] [SPEAKER_05]: which is not an easy thing to do.

[00:14:45] [SPEAKER_07]: No, it's really not easy.

[00:14:48] [SPEAKER_07]: Especially the Lord of the Rings fandom, like Star Wars fandom, has kind of a toxic wing.

[00:14:58] [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, they, they, in the Lord of the Rings fandom,

[00:15:03] [SPEAKER_07]: they're self-declared protectors of the canon and they hate any deviation.

[00:15:09] [SPEAKER_07]: And they're the ones who hate black elves and, you know,

[00:15:16] [SPEAKER_07]: they luckily, they're not like, they're not the core audience for these expansions of the universe.

[00:15:23] [SPEAKER_07]: They can, they can just go read the books and just stay with the books and just be fine and leave everybody else alone.

[00:15:30] [SPEAKER_07]: Because Token himself said, I created this world and other people can play in it.

[00:15:38] [SPEAKER_05]: Exactly. And that's what this is. And like I said, I want more shows.

[00:15:45] [SPEAKER_05]: So I am open to changes that make that possible and modernize the material.

[00:15:51] [SPEAKER_05]: Token was writing, you know, between World War One and World War Two,

[00:15:56] [SPEAKER_05]: the world was the way it was at that time.

[00:15:59] [SPEAKER_05]: I think if he were alive today in writing, he would have written very differently.

[00:16:05] [SPEAKER_07]: He would have put in some women. Yeah, hopefully.

[00:16:09] [SPEAKER_07]: Well, and you know, I think that there is a larger audience than the toxic wing of the super fandom,

[00:16:18] [SPEAKER_07]: who would not watch a show that was comprised of nothing but white men.

[00:16:24] [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah. And no women, no people from other racial backgrounds.

[00:16:33] [SPEAKER_07]: And you know, that's not just the world that we live in today.

[00:16:39] [SPEAKER_07]: Women, people of color, form a very large audience who have money to spend on going to the movies,

[00:16:47] [SPEAKER_07]: on merch, on subscribing to Amazon, etc., etc., etc., and so the companies who are making this know that.

[00:16:56] [SPEAKER_07]: And they're going to do things to attract those audiences.

[00:17:00] [SPEAKER_07]: And so that makes the source material.

[00:17:04] [SPEAKER_07]: You know, it's elastic enough to absorb that.

[00:17:08] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, I, we are so on the same page.

[00:17:13] [SPEAKER_05]: Well, what's your first point, Benny?

[00:17:15] [SPEAKER_05]: Something I've come back to time and time again this season is Anatar and his narcissistic abuse of caliber and bore.

[00:17:24] [SPEAKER_05]: Yes. And the people around him. This episode was haunting because caliber and bore figures it out, right?

[00:17:34] [SPEAKER_05]: He figures out he's being manipulated.

[00:17:36] [SPEAKER_05]: He figures out that there's an illusion around him and what the illusion is.

[00:17:42] [SPEAKER_05]: And he figures out that his city that he loves is under siege.

[00:17:45] [SPEAKER_05]: And Anatar's response to this is, you sought peace. I gave it to you.

[00:17:52] [SPEAKER_05]: Like this is what you wanted, which is a narrative trope as old as time.

[00:17:55] [SPEAKER_05]: Right? It's the monkeys paw. It's the genie in the lamp.

[00:17:59] [SPEAKER_05]: It's be careful what you wish for and he's the Lord of gifts.

[00:18:02] [SPEAKER_05]: But the gifts he gives have a twist.

[00:18:05] [SPEAKER_05]: And then, um,

[00:18:15] [SPEAKER_05]: I mean, not to believe caliber and bore and actually defear him.

[00:18:19] [SPEAKER_05]: And, and it works, right? She's like, no, you're the problem, right?

[00:18:23] [SPEAKER_05]: And then of course, Anatar kills her, which is incredibly upsetting because she dies thinking that caliber and bore killed her.

[00:18:31] [SPEAKER_05]: And it's a very disturbing death. She gets thrown into a basically a pit of works.

[00:18:38] [SPEAKER_05]: It's very upsetting. And, you know, just last episode, Anatar was like,

[00:18:42] [SPEAKER_05]: I'll see that you're duly rewarded and we know that this is his reward for her is to, is to killer.

[00:18:48] [SPEAKER_05]: And he doesn't so easily without even changing his facial expression. He's just a flip of the wrist.

[00:18:54] [SPEAKER_05]: And then, Anatar shackles caliber and bore to his desk and is like finished the rings.

[00:19:00] [SPEAKER_05]: And he like stands over and watching him work. And he gives him this speech about how it pains him to have to do this to, to kill a brim bore.

[00:19:10] [SPEAKER_05]: How he himself was tortured by morgoth, which is a new thing that was not in any of the books.

[00:19:16] [SPEAKER_05]: It's entirely possible that that's what would have happened because morgoth was just a horrible monster we wanted to destroy everything.

[00:19:24] [SPEAKER_05]: But it's also a classic of abusers to say like, well I was abused and somehow they think that justifies them abusing others. It does not.

[00:19:34] [SPEAKER_05]: If you're out there, it does not excuse you abusing other people.

[00:19:39] [SPEAKER_05]: It's true that most abusers were themselves abused, but it is not true that everyone who's abused goes on to be an abuser.

[00:19:49] [SPEAKER_05]: That's right.

[00:19:50] [SPEAKER_05]: Anatar also goes a step further and says, you are the author of your own torment. You forced me to do this. This was your choice.

[00:20:00] [SPEAKER_05]: I am but a victim of your obstinance. And this is another thing that abusers do. They say, you made me do it.

[00:20:09] [SPEAKER_05]: If you hadn't made me mad, I wouldn't have hit you. If you had, you know, made dinner on time.

[00:20:14] [SPEAKER_05]: I wouldn't have hit you. Like whatever the reason is that the abusers give.

[00:20:19] [SPEAKER_05]: They try to make the victim feel bad for their own behavior and create this narrative where the victim thinks,

[00:20:25] [SPEAKER_05]: maybe there is a perfect set of behaviors and words that I can say and do, that will prevent my abuse. There isn't.

[00:20:34] [SPEAKER_05]: An abuser is going to find a way to abuse. And it hit me really hard.

[00:20:41] [SPEAKER_05]: Kelli Brimbore to his credit in the moment is like, oh, you are the great deceiver. You've even deceived yourself.

[00:20:47] [SPEAKER_05]: A lot of people in that position who've been beaten down by an abuser will be like, you're right. I did choose this. I made it happen.

[00:20:54] [SPEAKER_05]: Because the psychological torment is as effective as the physical torment that an abuser is putting the person through.

[00:21:02] [SPEAKER_05]: And they can turn the abuser on them. They abused victim on themselves.

[00:21:07] [SPEAKER_05]: Whoever is writing anatar, whoever's in the writers room putting this together, I think has personal experience with abuse.

[00:21:15] [SPEAKER_05]: And has done a lot of reading on narcissists. It is, it is pitch perfect and disturbing and haunting.

[00:21:25] [SPEAKER_05]: And also I think an important story to tell because a lot of people don't recognize the signs of abuse when they see them.

[00:21:32] [SPEAKER_05]: And maybe after seeing this pattern in this show, it will help somebody out there be like, oh, that's kind of like what my, you know, husband parent boyfriend girlfriend boss has been doing to me.

[00:21:47] [SPEAKER_05]: And it will help them to get out of that situation.

[00:21:51] [SPEAKER_05]: You also need therapy, by the way, if you've been through that, but that's a separate, separate podcast not something podcast to cover really covers.

[00:21:59] [SPEAKER_05]: I thought also it was really interesting when Anatar is talking about his own resistance to more golf torture that he says that it almost turned into a game.

[00:22:11] [SPEAKER_05]: And that it was a contest of who's will is mightier.

[00:22:15] [SPEAKER_05]: And then Kela Brimboer says that whose will is mightier before he does the incredibly heroic gesture of cutting off his own thumb.

[00:22:25] [SPEAKER_05]: Thereby possibly ending any chance he would ever have of smithing again.

[00:22:30] [SPEAKER_05]: Yes.

[00:22:32] [SPEAKER_05]: In order to resist Anatar, it's inspiring in heroic what he does. It blew me away. I was very impressed.

[00:22:39] [SPEAKER_07]: Especially since we're given a very clear view of how is important.

[00:22:46] [SPEAKER_07]: Important his hands being whole is at the beginning when he takes the last ring that he's making and it's the band and he has.

[00:22:57] [SPEAKER_07]: Like pliers in each hand and twist it to join it. He can only do that with thumbs on both hands. He'll never be able to do that again.

[00:23:06] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, it's a huge sacrifice and it only takes him a moment to steal himself to do it. It's an incredibly powerful moment where he sees the you know he's trying first to get it off his hand to get the shackle off his hand.

[00:23:23] [SPEAKER_05]: He can't do it. I assume that that shackle was probably made by Kela Brimboer's forge. That is a strong shackle and you know he sees whatever that tool is that's the press or stamp whatever that thing is.

[00:23:37] [SPEAKER_05]: Yes. And he looks at his hands and it doesn't take him long to make the decision to do it. There's a momentary pause and he says whose will is my dear and does it and then he doesn't even scream that was I know.

[00:23:50] [SPEAKER_05]: I was like elves are way mightier than me.

[00:23:55] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, I would pass out.

[00:24:01] [SPEAKER_05]: That scene. I feel like that scene should be like taught in like psychology grad school like watch this this is everything a narcissistic abuser does and Kela Brimboer's ability to resist it is superhuman.

[00:24:17] [SPEAKER_05]: And we should all have a lot of compassion for people who are going through that because most people don't come out of it that quickly and at least he gets his his integrity back.

[00:24:30] [SPEAKER_05]: Yes.

[00:24:32] [SPEAKER_05]: I happen to know what's going to happen to him next and that's for people who've listened to Gledriel's mirror also know what's going to happen to him next so yes there's that.

[00:24:42] [SPEAKER_05]: And then he goes out and he he's trying to like get away with the rings and the soldiers are like oh we have to take you back for your own.

[00:24:51] [SPEAKER_05]: For your own protection the Lord of a Reggie on commanded it and then Gledriel shows up and I thought this was hilarious she's like no this is the Lord of a Reggie on and they're all like oh you're right.

[00:25:03] [SPEAKER_05]: And like immediately changed and they're on his side I was like that was a little easy.

[00:25:07] [SPEAKER_05]: I thought so too.

[00:25:09] [SPEAKER_05]: But then we see of course that they that and it's our has prepared for this exact eventuality and he has control over all of them and as horrifying as that scene was it was really cool the way it was shot with you know he's encircled by these elf warriors and the camera is above.

[00:25:30] [SPEAKER_05]: And he just turns his wrists again and they all turn face each other with their swords simultaneously all stab each other and then fall in a perfect circle it was beautiful.

[00:25:42] [SPEAKER_05]: And terrifying which is yes very token right like tokens world is the world where there are horrifying monsters and absolute beauty and sometimes those things mixed together.

[00:25:56] [SPEAKER_05]: And that was a scene I was like god that's gorgeous that is so beautiful and then he grabs one of the elf swords and does the last elf warrior himself and it's like at that moment Kelle Brimborn knows that.

[00:26:10] [SPEAKER_05]: But he has the satisfaction that Giladriel took the rings and love the city and he doesn't actually know where she went.

[00:26:19] [SPEAKER_05]: Right so he can't give up her yeah he knows probably the belt that tunnel she took but after that she could be anywhere and he knows that no matter how much.

[00:26:30] [SPEAKER_05]: And he's out on an at our torture system he can't directly give up her location and that is hopeful and also very smart.

[00:26:39] [SPEAKER_05]: The look on her face when he you know gives her the rings and they have that amazing speech about.

[00:26:47] [SPEAKER_05]: Strength isn't what defeat star comis it's light.

[00:26:50] [SPEAKER_05]: She knows that he knows that he's going to his death in order to protect these rings.

[00:26:57] [SPEAKER_05]: And she knows that he just said goodbye to her without them actually saying it and the look on her face is like I am so sad but I have to wait till later to be sad because I got a run right now.

[00:27:12] [SPEAKER_05]: This episode I've watched it four times and every time.

[00:27:17] [SPEAKER_05]: I cry in that scene and every time I have to pause several times during the episode to sort of think about what I've just seen.

[00:27:27] [SPEAKER_05]: The abuse and Kelle Brimborn standing up to it is so moving yes close my mind.

[00:27:34] [SPEAKER_07]: Yes.

[00:27:37] [SPEAKER_07]: I agree it is inspiring and one of my points flows right out of that it's about how good Charlie Vickers is as an nantar.

[00:27:51] [SPEAKER_07]: He's just so good I think he said you thought the acting was better this season.

[00:27:57] [SPEAKER_07]: I think he's so much better as on natar as then he was his all brand and he was just like the.

[00:28:06] [SPEAKER_07]: Dim store Ergon.

[00:28:09] [SPEAKER_07]: Yes, all brand and as a herborn as a herborn but as an natar he's terrifying and he's and he's so beautiful and.

[00:28:20] [SPEAKER_07]: The fact that he's so beautiful.

[00:28:24] [SPEAKER_07]: Amplifies how terrifying he is when he gives that abusers speel to Kelle Brimborn about how Kelle Brimborn is brought his suffering on himself.

[00:28:37] [SPEAKER_07]: He really comes across as menacing in an underplayed way that is therefore terrifying.

[00:28:47] [SPEAKER_07]: He's very calm very calm and his facial expressions when he's causing the elving guards to kill each other as you just described.

[00:28:56] [SPEAKER_07]: They're just as nicely underplayed he's he's he's creating this this chaos and slaughter and his faces perfectly still.

[00:29:09] [SPEAKER_07]: His his hands move in that great flick of the wrist with the fingers croaked in this weird way but his face never moves and.

[00:29:22] [SPEAKER_07]: I think that's just so well done also he did something that I don't even know how he did there was a at the beginning of the episode.

[00:29:31] [SPEAKER_07]: I'm going to tell a Brimborn tells him he's not done with the rings yet his face is just his left cheek twitches.

[00:29:39] [SPEAKER_07]: I mean it twitches visibly it's like I don't have that kind of muscle control of my cheek muscles but Charlie Vickers certainly does you know who else can do that.

[00:29:50] [SPEAKER_05]: One of the actors in Shogun had an ability to twitch one cheek and did it when his character who is a very well respected samurai warrior is upset about something.

[00:30:04] [SPEAKER_05]: And he's generally what he's upset about his relationship with his wife and just as cheek with twitch and I would rewind and watch and rewind and watch.

[00:30:13] [SPEAKER_05]: I was like how is he doing that and same with Charlie Vickers it is subtle and and beautiful he also does like something with his eyes where like.

[00:30:25] [SPEAKER_05]: He just narrows them like the tinyest bit and because the rest of his face is so placid it speaks volumes.

[00:30:35] [SPEAKER_05]: It's amazing to see like interviews with Charlie Vickers in his you know his own personality where he's just this like cheerful bloke who's like show is so fun to work on and he and Charles that were to play as killer Brimborn or like the best of friends it is so weird.

[00:30:53] [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah well just shows what a good actor he is because he just really embodies that evil of of saueron and you know one of the things that George are a Martin to bring my two fandoms together here talks about is that in real life.

[00:31:18] [SPEAKER_07]: The difficulty is often telling good from evil right that in in bad fantasy the bad guys are always ugly and they always were black and the good guys are always beautiful.

[00:31:35] [SPEAKER_07]: And he subverts that consistently in in his own work and here I think we're seeing on a tar that the Lord of gifts he is his beautiful and the production design emphasizes this in an interesting way.

[00:31:52] [SPEAKER_07]: Everybody else is filthy dirty. Kelle Brimborn or gets the first hint that something is not right when he sees his own dirty reflection in the mirror because in the illusion he's clean also but the Elvin warriors they're all dirty.

[00:32:13] [SPEAKER_07]: And then the Elvin warriors are down in the dirt and you know they start out clean but they get dirty real fast.

[00:32:22] [SPEAKER_07]: But no matter what happens no matter how much smoke he walks through on a tar remains completely clean his hair is immaculate his closures mac or maculate there's no dirt on him anywhere which of course makes sense because he is the most powerful being around because he's a Maya and.

[00:32:44] [SPEAKER_07]: So he has magical ways of keeping his clothes clean I guess.

[00:32:49] [SPEAKER_05]: It's about the stranger hasn't figured that out yet because he's no.

[00:32:56] [SPEAKER_07]: But that you know his his perfect appearance and his beauty.

[00:33:06] [SPEAKER_07]: Seek to hide.

[00:33:09] [SPEAKER_07]: The evil of his intentions.

[00:33:12] [SPEAKER_07]: And when we see him doing these evil actions the fact that they're coming from somebody who's so serene.

[00:33:25] [SPEAKER_05]: So so clearly clean so beautiful just makes it chilling yeah I've known people in real life who when they're angry they get calm yes and those people are scary yes.

[00:33:42] [SPEAKER_05]: And truly dangerous yeah like a person who gets calm is a person who.

[00:33:49] [SPEAKER_05]: Has already gone through all of the thought process and is ready to act if you think one more step toward them right people who are distraught can be manipulated as at our points out.

[00:34:01] [SPEAKER_05]: At the very end of the episode when he captures Elrond and he says have you forgotten your room.

[00:34:08] [SPEAKER_05]: I assume room mill is some Elvin philosopher poet don't make war angry and.

[00:34:16] [SPEAKER_05]: It's true when you're angry you could be manipulated when you're emotional you could be manipulated coming from a place of calm is a place of power and anathar has just like he owns that.

[00:34:29] [SPEAKER_05]: He's so calm and and even when he's deeply upset about something like you said it's a twitch and then he immediately smooths it out.

[00:34:41] [SPEAKER_05]: His clothes over the course of the season have been so interesting once he made the switch from how brand to anathar at first he was in white robes that were sort of like rough spun fabrics he looked very sort of jesusy.

[00:34:59] [SPEAKER_05]: Every outfit we've seen since then has gotten fancier and darker and his outfit in this episode was regal it had those like scales over one side that were metal and he had this big ostentatious belt.

[00:35:15] [SPEAKER_05]: He's dressing as a lord now not as like a humble message or from the vialar right not hiding it.

[00:35:22] [SPEAKER_05]: And he's got everyone in this city completely you know snowed they're like oh he's our lord now we just that that guy that we've known for three weeks.

[00:35:34] [SPEAKER_05]: He's in charge is caliber and more who we haven't seen in person in a long time won't give orders like none of them are are like forcing their way in there to check they've all just accepted that and it's our speaks for caliber and more and that.

[00:35:48] [SPEAKER_05]: And that caliber and more would be like no we don't need to defend ourselves against an army of works like they've all just fallen for these lies and.

[00:35:58] [SPEAKER_05]: And these are superhuman beings right elves are ancient and wise and have perceptions beyond perceptions of humans but.

[00:36:08] [SPEAKER_05]: And so it's out on is is the king of all deceivers you know is had a lie better than anyone knows how to lie and he's tricked them all and it it's so sobering because I think it happens in real life all the time that people tell a story.

[00:36:26] [SPEAKER_05]: And another person believes it and if you believe a lie long enough you don't even remember where you heard the lie that's right and when someone confronts you with the truth you're like no no no I know this other thing is true I know it.

[00:36:41] [SPEAKER_05]: And it's really hard to break that whole that a lie has over someone once they've internalized it.

[00:36:51] [SPEAKER_05]: I'm going to drop that subject now because.

[00:36:54] [SPEAKER_05]: All right I'll talk politics.

[00:36:57] [SPEAKER_05]: You're next point.

[00:36:59] [SPEAKER_05]: Speaking of politics let's talk about dwarf politics yeah so.

[00:37:05] [SPEAKER_05]: El Rond goes to Durin despite being banned from all dwarven lands to ask for help against the orcs and we don't see the outcome of that conversation until later when Durin rallies the dwarf warriors and he has this amazing.

[00:37:21] [SPEAKER_05]: And so that's what I want to talk about is actually the story that the

[00:37:21] [SPEAKER_05]: we have in the world that we are going to do this today.

[00:37:22] [SPEAKER_05]: We have the rousing speech where instead of going doing the kezad doom chant that they usually do the dwarves start yelling barruk kezad.

[00:37:34] [SPEAKER_05]: And in to flourish that means axis of the dwarves it's the door of a battle cry.

[00:37:39] [SPEAKER_05]: Apparently we have heard this before in one of the Lord the rings trilogy movies and one of the hobbit trilogy movies I don't remember it from Lord of the rings

[00:37:47] [SPEAKER_05]: And I've only seen the first Hobbit movie which I hated so I never watched the other two.

[00:37:53] [SPEAKER_05]: Good choice. Thank you. I thought it was a good choice.

[00:37:57] [SPEAKER_05]: But he recruits these doors. First, he and Disa, right? They're ready to just the two of them.

[00:38:03] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah. Stand against all these minor dwarves and protect Kazat Doom from this evil that Disa

[00:38:09] [SPEAKER_05]: knows is behind these rocks. And I was not prepared for Narvee to throw down his accent

[00:38:15] [SPEAKER_05]: like we're joining you. And I was like, yay! It was such an exciting moment and I was so happy.

[00:38:21] [SPEAKER_05]: And I was like, finally we have some hope. And then, you know, Duran rallies all the dwarves to his

[00:38:25] [SPEAKER_05]: cause. We're going to go help a Regionne because we care more about loyalty than greed.

[00:38:31] [SPEAKER_05]: Everything was like going in the right direction and it was so exciting. And then this moment where

[00:38:37] [SPEAKER_05]: first of all, the dwarf armor that Duran is wearing amazing. And then Narvee comes running out of the

[00:38:45] [SPEAKER_05]: Disa sent me to tell you, you have to call the army back, the king. And we it's seen the king

[00:38:52] [SPEAKER_05]: frustrated. Pick up his accent walk off. And now we know that what he did was attack all of these

[00:38:59] [SPEAKER_05]: dwarves who were guarding the mine and cut through them like stalks of wheat, which I assume is the

[00:39:05] [SPEAKER_05]: power of the ring. And it has to be has to be. Because otherwise he's like an old dwarf and he's one

[00:39:12] [SPEAKER_05]: person. And Duran is faced with this horrible conundrum. I promised Elrond, I was going to bring him

[00:39:21] [SPEAKER_05]: an army to help him save a Regionne. But my wife and my people are in danger here. Who do I

[00:39:30] [SPEAKER_05]: owe a higher loyalty to? Like he said loyalty more important than greed, more important than this

[00:39:38] [SPEAKER_05]: but loyalty to his own people is that more important than loyalty to Elrond. Yes, but

[00:39:45] [SPEAKER_05]: Elrond's cause is also defeating Sauron. So I wouldn't want to have to make that decision.

[00:39:54] [SPEAKER_05]: How do you decide that? I don't know how you decide that. And it looks, it certainly

[00:39:59] [SPEAKER_05]: looks like the decision Duran made was to stay in Kazadum and to close the doors of Kazadum

[00:40:05] [SPEAKER_05]: and deal with dwarf business. But we didn't see him make that decision. We don't see it happen.

[00:40:11] [SPEAKER_07]: So I don't know what is coming in episode 8. My question was, does it really take the entire

[00:40:18] [SPEAKER_05]: dwarf army to stop King Duran? Yeah, but what we don't know is has the ballerog already been awakened?

[00:40:28] [SPEAKER_05]: Like yeah, it could question. In Duran they're up against or are they now also up against

[00:40:33] [SPEAKER_05]: the ballerog or some other horrible monster from the D pretty sure it's the ballerog. But it could be

[00:40:40] [SPEAKER_05]: another monster. We don't we didn't get to see it, so we don't know yet. I assume we're going to

[00:40:47] [SPEAKER_07]: get to see exactly what went down in the finale. They have so much to wrap up in the finale.

[00:40:56] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, it's going to be like a four hour episode. I don't know if they're going to do it.

[00:41:00] [SPEAKER_05]: Because we still have new menor in the stranger there. We didn't touch this week.

[00:41:05] [SPEAKER_07]: We still have the character that I think of as Gandalf's the blue.

[00:41:11] [SPEAKER_07]: Because he's either Gandalf or he's a blue wizard, so I just think of him as Gandalf's the blue. That's probably

[00:41:16] [SPEAKER_07]: the way to think of it. Yeah. And the harfots and yeah, they're so much going to get to and not to mention

[00:41:24] [SPEAKER_07]: what's going on at haring. So so much to get to. Yeah, it's it's going to be a packed episode

[00:41:31] [SPEAKER_05]: for the finale. The dwarves are a favorite of mine and I'm pretty distressed that what's going

[00:41:39] [SPEAKER_05]: to end up happening is King Duran is going to be taken out and the ballerog is going to attack

[00:41:46] [SPEAKER_07]: and Prince Duran is going to put on the ring. Oh, yeah. Wow. Good screenwriting, Penny.

[00:41:58] [SPEAKER_05]: You know, he doesn't want to wear the ring. He thinks the ring is evil. But if you're confronted

[00:42:03] [SPEAKER_05]: with a ballerog, you use whatever weapon you can. And if the ring is sitting right there,

[00:42:09] [SPEAKER_07]: how would you not put it on? So he would do it as an act of self-sacrifice knowing

[00:42:17] [SPEAKER_05]: that it was going to corrupt it. Yeah. Wow, that would break my heart and yeah, certainly

[00:42:23] [SPEAKER_05]: break Diza's heart. Yeah. Diza is such a fan favorite. People in the fanboards are all like,

[00:42:31] [SPEAKER_05]: is Diza dead? And I'm like, they can't kill Diza. They can't. They cannot kill Diza. Fans would

[00:42:37] [SPEAKER_07]: cry it. They yeah, that's like Lord of the walking dead. If Daryl dies, we write it. We're going to

[00:42:43] [SPEAKER_07]: have that slogan. Yeah. You just plugged Disa in there if Disa dies, we write it. Yeah, people love her

[00:42:49] [SPEAKER_05]: and it's universal. I haven't heard one person on the internet say a bad thing about Diza,

[00:42:55] [SPEAKER_05]: which is pretty unusual. Yeah, it is. Usually there's someone who will say a bad word just so

[00:43:00] [SPEAKER_05]: they can be different from everyone else. Even if they don't really believe it. But everyone

[00:43:04] [SPEAKER_05]: is like Disa. Yeah. Oh my God. She's amazing. Her hair, her voice, her clothes. Like, ah, um,

[00:43:11] [SPEAKER_05]: their relationship, like everything I love Disa and Daryl together. And I think it'll break

[00:43:16] [SPEAKER_05]: her heart to see him put on the ring. You know, he promised or he wouldn't. There's only one

[00:43:22] [SPEAKER_05]: reason they they wrote him making that promise into the story is so that he would break it.

[00:43:27] [SPEAKER_05]: That's a point. And the only thing that would make him break it is if he has to to save his people.

[00:43:34] [SPEAKER_05]: So that's my prediction for episode eight. Yeah, good prediction. Yeah. Where do you want to go next?

[00:43:42] [SPEAKER_07]: Well, let's move from dwarf politics to Burrick politics. Oh, good stuff. Yeah. And at

[00:43:48] [SPEAKER_07]: ours, the trail of his children. His desire for revenge against Sauron is so great that he is

[00:43:59] [SPEAKER_07]: willing to sacrifice this group that he has sworn to protect. And so you really see it in the

[00:44:11] [SPEAKER_07]: relationship between Adara and his lieutenant, Gluge and Gluge asked him to retreat during the

[00:44:21] [SPEAKER_07]: battle because the elves attack is much more successful than expected. And Gluge says,

[00:44:29] [SPEAKER_07]: you told us you loved us and Adara says that he does love them with all the heart that I have left.

[00:44:39] [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, that's a telling at the telling line with all the heart that I have left. And he says he loves

[00:44:44] [SPEAKER_07]: them too much to let them become Sauron's slaves. And the implication is that if the only way to

[00:44:52] [SPEAKER_07]: prevent that is for them all to die, that these weapons come in. Yeah. But what Gluge sees is just

[00:45:00] [SPEAKER_07]: that Adara is letting the Urrick speak defeated and killed by the elves. And so that's how it seems

[00:45:07] [SPEAKER_07]: to him. And the last straw for Gluge is when Adara says send him in, meaning the troll. Yeah.

[00:45:13] [SPEAKER_07]: And Gluge objects that he will kill our own kind and add arms just anyway, so that when

[00:45:21] [SPEAKER_07]: at the end when Adara orders the advance, Gluge doesn't go with them. Yeah, he stays back. He stays back.

[00:45:30] [SPEAKER_05]: Adara isn't completely wrong. No, no, Sauron does want to enslave the Orcs. We all saw that in the

[00:45:43] [SPEAKER_05]: middle of earth. You want to enslave everybody, so everybody will do exactly what he thinks they should

[00:45:47] [SPEAKER_05]: do and everything will be neat and tidy for what's. And he will create a perfect and lasting piece.

[00:45:54] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, of fascism. Yes. And Adara isn't wrong that ultimate evil needs to be resisted. And if

[00:46:08] [SPEAKER_05]: ultimate evil is using violence, the resistance has to be violence. That's how war happens.

[00:46:15] [SPEAKER_05]: Right? It's not always about like two sides that want the same land or something. Sometimes it's

[00:46:21] [SPEAKER_05]: about evil advancing and good saying we can't let you go any further. Yeah. And

[00:46:30] [SPEAKER_05]: and if you're going to go to war and you're going to command an army, you have to be willing

[00:46:36] [SPEAKER_05]: to let some of them die. That's just the reality of war. If you try to protect every single

[00:46:44] [SPEAKER_05]: member of your army, you will lose and lose all of them. And Adara has done this calculation,

[00:46:52] [SPEAKER_05]: Gluge on the other hand is thinking about his baby. Right? Gluge is like, I've got a, I got an

[00:46:57] [SPEAKER_05]: Orc lady in a baby at home. I want to go back to more to our, maybe they won't follow us. Maybe

[00:47:03] [SPEAKER_05]: we'll have a better chance defending more to her than we have attacking a Region. Like,

[00:47:07] [SPEAKER_05]: he sees this possibility because he's not in charge. I'm a little surprised with all of his

[00:47:13] [SPEAKER_05]: back talk to Adara that Adara hasn't just killed him or fired him yet. Yeah. But I appreciate Gluge.

[00:47:20] [SPEAKER_05]: I think the actor Robert Strange is doing a wonderful job. Yes. Under all that makeup, it's hard

[00:47:25] [SPEAKER_05]: to do, but he does a great job. Yeah. He makes me feel so much sympathy for his character,

[00:47:33] [SPEAKER_05]: but also for all of the Uruk that they are also people, a people that want to live and have babies

[00:47:42] [SPEAKER_05]: and grow crops and have a life. Now the battle scenes certainly paint the Uruk as blood thirsty

[00:47:54] [SPEAKER_05]: as enjoying the violence. There's that one that kills Elrond's horse and like, like, like,

[00:48:02] [SPEAKER_05]: pretty reprehensible in battle. But the show has done a good job of showing that not all of them

[00:48:10] [SPEAKER_05]: are like that. And that Adara is pushing them into this. He's in charge. It's his decision.

[00:48:18] [SPEAKER_05]: The Uruk didn't just like all run to a Region and add our follow them and be like, well, as long as

[00:48:22] [SPEAKER_05]: we're here, like they didn't start this war, but they're certainly the ones who are dying in it.

[00:48:31] [SPEAKER_05]: But also you can't have war without some people dying and I think that Adara is kind of right

[00:48:40] [SPEAKER_05]: to be resisting Sauron. It's unfortunate that Sauron has maneuvered it so that by resisting

[00:48:47] [SPEAKER_05]: him, they are also destroying a Region which is what he wanted all along. And I think it's very

[00:48:55] [SPEAKER_07]: difficult for Adara to convey to anyone who doesn't already know how powerful Sauron is.

[00:49:04] [SPEAKER_05]: Right. I don't know our orcs or Uruk as long lived as elves. Like Adara, that's a good question.

[00:49:15] [SPEAKER_05]: It is an elf who has been around since the beginning of time. And he has seen Sauron do evil things

[00:49:22] [SPEAKER_05]: and he tried to kill Sauron and all this stuff. But are there a Ranganfile orcs who have also

[00:49:29] [SPEAKER_05]: been around that long or almost that long? I don't have a good sense of their lifespan.

[00:49:35] [SPEAKER_07]: Well, so here's where I can fill in a little bit for on one about work floor.

[00:49:42] [SPEAKER_07]: Tolkien changed his mind about the origin and condition of the orcs. And so there's different

[00:49:52] [SPEAKER_07]: bits of notes and stories and what have you that are in the materials that his son

[00:50:01] [SPEAKER_07]: Christopher Tolkien sorted through that give different different origins, different

[00:50:08] [SPEAKER_07]: descriptions of orcs how they came about and their identity and what have you. So I think that it

[00:50:16] [SPEAKER_07]: might not there might not be a definitive answer to your question of what is an orc life span

[00:50:24] [SPEAKER_05]: I'd like to know but maybe the show will will decide to answer that question at some point.

[00:50:32] [SPEAKER_05]: But it does seem like the globe at least doesn't fear Sauron enough. Right.

[00:50:43] [SPEAKER_05]: But it also seems to me that Adar's personal feelings about Sauron are at play just as much

[00:50:50] [SPEAKER_05]: as his desire to not see his people enslaved by him exactly. It's all it's personal. Yeah, yeah.

[00:50:58] [SPEAKER_05]: Although he remains calm at all times we never see him really get riled up. No, he's he's very good

[00:51:06] [SPEAKER_05]: at staying calm even when things are going completely crazy all around him which is just you know how

[00:51:12] [SPEAKER_05]: we get that scene between him and Elrond at the end of the episode. I thought that it was so

[00:51:18] [SPEAKER_05]: interesting to see how the orcs treat their dead and that they apparently they burn them and

[00:51:25] [SPEAKER_05]: Adar kneels over the dead bodies and says inflames you return to darkness and he's crying

[00:51:32] [SPEAKER_05]: and Godreal sees this and she's sort of like that's interesting and then she's like

[00:51:35] [SPEAKER_05]: whatever and it looks like Timmy like she rolls her eyes when she walks away. And it got me thinking

[00:51:41] [SPEAKER_05]: about different funeral rights and things that I've seen in fantasy and science fiction and

[00:51:47] [SPEAKER_05]: if I were an academic it'd be an interesting paper right like how many different fictional races

[00:51:53] [SPEAKER_05]: treat their dead and what are the words that they say over their dead and how does that compare

[00:51:58] [SPEAKER_05]: to how humans treat their dead? My favorite is from the hundred of the space the sky crew say

[00:52:06] [SPEAKER_05]: in peace may you leave this shore in love may you find the next safe passage on your travels

[00:52:11] [SPEAKER_05]: until our final journey to the ground may we meet again. And the the grounders in that show

[00:52:19] [SPEAKER_05]: different tribe of humans simply say your fight is over.

[00:52:25] [SPEAKER_05]: Simpler it's very straightforward but I love safe passage on your travels. I just I love the idea that

[00:52:34] [SPEAKER_05]: that death is just a journey to another way of existence and that you know will meet again

[00:52:39] [SPEAKER_05]: on the other side is it's really beautiful and I thought inflames you returned to darkness was

[00:52:44] [SPEAKER_05]: also beautiful and the fact that the orcs care about their dead and honor their dead is another

[00:52:49] [SPEAKER_05]: layer to their society because what we saw in in Lord of the Rings was primarily the Urokaye

[00:52:57] [SPEAKER_05]: who are this new race of orcs created by Saraman and their reaction to a dead orc was to eat it.

[00:53:05] [SPEAKER_05]: And so our interpretation of orcs is that they're just like violent cannibalistic killing machines

[00:53:13] [SPEAKER_07]: but these orcs have a culture which is the first time we've ever seen orcs portrayed that

[00:53:23] [SPEAKER_07]: way and I wonder how much of that is at ours in Florence making these these orcs

[00:53:35] [SPEAKER_07]: his children how much of that culture he's created with for them with them yeah and so you know

[00:53:46] [SPEAKER_05]: he's not in Lord of the Rings so somewhere in the next several thousand years of mineral Earth

[00:53:51] [SPEAKER_05]: he dies and the orcs fall under the control of Sauron it's only and does Sauron allow them to

[00:54:00] [SPEAKER_05]: keep this culture or does he suppress it? Yeah, suddenly I want to know orc history which is wild

[00:54:07] [SPEAKER_05]: the show has done wild things yeah let's talk about the troll for a second yes roll was amazing

[00:54:15] [SPEAKER_05]: it was so scary so big it took I mean he was covered with arrows and and sword stabs

[00:54:24] [SPEAKER_05]: and whatever that wooden thing that like swung around and whacked him in the gut and cut him open

[00:54:31] [SPEAKER_05]: and it took so much to kill the troll and in the end he's like oh oh yeah it's like dying and laughing

[00:54:37] [SPEAKER_05]: with like blood coming out of his mouth so gross so scary um I love that Gil Gallad sliced his like a

[00:54:45] [SPEAKER_05]: killies tendon and basically like crippled him and bronned down that was strategic fighting right

[00:54:52] [SPEAKER_05]: like you can't you can't just stab him in the heart and kill him so at least kill his mobility

[00:54:58] [SPEAKER_05]: to him down yeah um I it reminded me a lot of the giant zombie in game of thrones in

[00:55:11] [SPEAKER_05]: the episode the longest night when they were attacking winter fell and how

[00:55:21] [SPEAKER_05]: Rion was pierced by many arrows but she still managed to get her shot in and explode that thing

[00:55:30] [SPEAKER_05]: and I was like oh it's Leon a mormon like I was so happy for her to be that brave I was not

[00:55:36] [SPEAKER_05]: happy that we lost Rion because now we're back down to only one speaking female elf yeah I was so

[00:55:45] [SPEAKER_05]: excited this season to have two more named women in the elf world who aren't wearing vails like oh yeah

[00:55:53] [SPEAKER_05]: and they both died in this episode yeah that hurt me that really hurt yeah but uh that's

[00:56:00] [SPEAKER_05]: of the troll when um at our sends it in and then the troll true to what glug predicted just uses

[00:56:08] [SPEAKER_05]: orcs as like you know living shields she takes them up and catches the arrows with them because

[00:56:14] [SPEAKER_05]: he I mean we saw from the first moment that damn rod was on screen that his reaction to getting

[00:56:21] [SPEAKER_05]: a messenger elf was to take that orc was to take the orcs head off and bring it back he's uh

[00:56:28] [SPEAKER_05]: he's just a killing machine he is sort of a mindless cultureless like violence engine but

[00:56:37] [SPEAKER_05]: even though he dies he had a huge impact on that battle and is the reason that the walls of a

[00:56:43] [SPEAKER_05]: Region yeah he took the wall down yeah um so strategically at our was right to send him in

[00:56:50] [SPEAKER_05]: and he was like my orcs are dying left and right anyway so

[00:56:54] [SPEAKER_05]: like the fact that this troll was gonna kill some of them does not matter to me at all at this point

[00:56:58] [SPEAKER_05]: I just need him to take down that wall it was an impressive scene and it was cool it was just cool

[00:57:05] [SPEAKER_05]: I mean one of my favorite scenes from fellowship with the ring is the cave troll because

[00:57:09] [SPEAKER_05]: it's so big and it's so scary and it's so clear that that it would take you know dozens of

[00:57:18] [SPEAKER_05]: fighters to take down a cave troll and this he'll troll it took dozens of very skilled elf warriors

[00:57:27] [SPEAKER_05]: to take it down yes um amazing really cool special effects too did you listen to the closing credits on

[00:57:37] [SPEAKER_05]: oh you know they have you metal song yeah that's that's damn rods it's like it's called something

[00:57:42] [SPEAKER_05]: like ballad for damn rod or something like that and it's just like really aggressive heavy metal song which is so

[00:57:51] [SPEAKER_05]: um such a contrast to most of the music that we get in this is it is and bear McCreary wrote that

[00:57:58] [SPEAKER_05]: yeah it's amazing it's I'm not really a metal fan but I listen to our whole thing because I was like

[00:58:03] [SPEAKER_05]: I can't believe we're getting this in a Lord of the Rings show yeah this is a dedication to

[00:58:10] [SPEAKER_05]: having a variety of music and of portraying all of the different races of middle-earth as complete

[00:58:16] [SPEAKER_05]: beings it's just it's part of the show from you know soup to nuts it's like costumes it's

[00:58:21] [SPEAKER_05]: special effects all of these creatures matter to the people who are creating the show whether they are

[00:58:27] [SPEAKER_05]: you know good guys or bad guys or whatever they all have well-rounded

[00:58:32] [SPEAKER_05]: something you know like creation to them and uh it makes it makes it so much more

[00:58:38] [SPEAKER_05]: visceral and meaningful when they die even I mean we don't get a lot of troll character development

[00:58:44] [SPEAKER_05]: but enough that when he died and he was laughing I was like why was he laughing?

[00:58:50] [SPEAKER_05]: I want to know that's interesting yeah I hope we get more trolls there's got to be more than one

[00:58:57] [SPEAKER_05]: troll in middle-earth otherwise how would they oh yeah there's lots of them yeah so I hope we get more

[00:59:04] [SPEAKER_07]: where do you want to go next oh can we talk about the most outrageous thing that happened in the

[00:59:10] [SPEAKER_07]: oh my god I don't know how you ranked that but okay

[00:59:14] [SPEAKER_07]: Elrond kissing gladriel oh yeah a lot of chatter about that on the internet yeah

[00:59:21] [SPEAKER_07]: you know so the camera pulls back to show us that it was a diversion so that Elrond could pass

[00:59:28] [SPEAKER_07]: her the pin that she uses to pick the lock of her shackle but while they're kissing that soaring rising

[00:59:37] [SPEAKER_07]: music speaking music says it's a romantic kiss and that is just so wrong because Elrond is

[00:59:47] [SPEAKER_07]: gladriel's son-in-law right although not yet right I don't know yeah chatter daughter well not in the show

[00:59:54] [SPEAKER_05]: but in the lore oh he's already married gladriel's been married since the first stage

[01:00:00] [SPEAKER_07]: and we're in the second age but does she have a daughter yet in the lore she does in the show she

[01:00:07] [SPEAKER_07]: doesn't appear to yeah we don't we at least we have a senior uh yeah I was Celebrion and she

[01:00:15] [SPEAKER_07]: and Elrond are married so Elrond's kissing is mother-in-law yeah it's a little weird but it's

[01:00:21] [SPEAKER_05]: a diversion and you're right the music made it seem like oh there's something there and if you

[01:00:28] [SPEAKER_05]: didn't know the backstory you would fully expect that they're gonna explore romance between these two

[01:00:33] [SPEAKER_05]: in the future the look on her face as he pulls away was really entertaining it was like surprise but

[01:00:40] [SPEAKER_05]: also like like a little respect like yeah that was a good diversion man like I got to

[01:00:48] [SPEAKER_05]: I got to not show that it was a diversion so I got to act like it was a real kiss but

[01:00:53] [SPEAKER_05]: interesting yeah I can't believe at our fell for that I know he like he should have said say

[01:01:01] [SPEAKER_05]: farewell from there you could say farewell to her but they let him like go right up to her and touch her

[01:01:06] [SPEAKER_07]: and everything that was dumb and yeah you know glug says he's unarmed well he's not unarmed he had a pin

[01:01:16] [SPEAKER_05]: he had all of his armor and everything like yeah that was just um really short sighted on the

[01:01:23] [SPEAKER_05]: part of the orcs orcs at our um but uh I do think it got the internet talking which maybe was

[01:01:33] [SPEAKER_04]: the point of it really was just to titulate the fans and get people to say like but he's

[01:01:40] [SPEAKER_05]: son and law I've seen a lot of memes showing um Elrond and Arwen from the movies and he's like

[01:01:48] [SPEAKER_05]: standing next to her and then somebody has put in I I kissed your grandma one time um as just like

[01:01:55] [SPEAKER_05]: a little meme that's floating around um it's a little irresistible Robert Arameo is so charming

[01:02:03] [SPEAKER_05]: and this season they've given him the this like long curly hair that I find really adorable it's

[01:02:09] [SPEAKER_05]: floppy and soft and and beautiful and um if I didn't know about colabrian and and you know the

[01:02:17] [SPEAKER_05]: future in the lore I would be rooting for these two as a couple because don't doesn't didn't

[01:02:24] [SPEAKER_05]: Galadriel say in season one that her husband has been dead for a long time. I you know she might have

[01:02:30] [SPEAKER_07]: and that might not even have registered on me because it no right like he's still alive in the Lord of

[01:02:38] [SPEAKER_05]: Rings movies. Yes we see we see him and it has led to some speculation that Adar is

[01:02:46] [SPEAKER_05]: is Cellebore in her husband? I know I've seen that and that doesn't make any sense. No that's

[01:02:53] [SPEAKER_05]: clearly not the case but it does make me think that Cellebore is not dead she just thinks he's dead

[01:02:59] [SPEAKER_05]: and at some point in this show she's gonna find him. I hope um and she's not gonna get together

[01:03:08] [SPEAKER_05]: with El Rund but they sure would be a cute couple. Well then it would be it would be much more like

[01:03:17] [SPEAKER_07]: in George Rarmarton incessed. Yeah I mean you know I suppose your mother and a son and

[01:03:27] [SPEAKER_07]: precisely incess but it's not it's it's creepy great. It's it's still creepy yeah um I

[01:03:38] [SPEAKER_05]: I thought that scene was really interesting Adar tries to trade

[01:03:45] [SPEAKER_05]: Galadriel's life for the ring and of course everybody is remembering that Galadriel made El Rund

[01:03:50] [SPEAKER_05]: promise that defeating Sauron comes before saving her life so yes everyone should have known

[01:03:56] [SPEAKER_05]: he wasn't gonna make that trade. He was right and saying it would be foolish to bring the ring

[01:04:02] [SPEAKER_05]: with me but apparently he brought the ring with him. It did come on. Yeah the wording of that sentence

[01:04:10] [SPEAKER_07]: took a note of the wording of that and it's not worded in a way that it's a denial that he did

[01:04:22] [SPEAKER_07]: because in a subjunctive that would have been foolish of me had I brought it. Yeah that's that's

[01:04:30] [SPEAKER_07]: uh that's some lawyer speak there. It's totally yeah he doesn't say he didn't. I mean he basically is like

[01:04:38] [SPEAKER_05]: speech writer slash lawyer for King Gil now right getting of the show so yeah he's he's good with words

[01:04:45] [SPEAKER_05]: and he's careful with the words he uses and yeah he didn't lie. No he just misdirected

[01:04:53] [SPEAKER_05]: and that's although I think Elves can lie too. I don't think that there's some kind of like

[01:04:59] [SPEAKER_05]: you know like mystical no I think they think lie things stopping them from lying but I

[01:05:04] [SPEAKER_05]: if I were at our I would have been like that's an interesting way you said that.

[01:05:10] [SPEAKER_05]: I bet you have the ring with you and he was right. I don't know why Elrod would bring the ring

[01:05:18] [SPEAKER_05]: with him into battle unless I guess he was gonna try to give it back to Giladriel I don't know.

[01:05:23] [SPEAKER_07]: Or he didn't think there was any place safe to leave it if he didn't carry it with him but yeah

[01:05:28] [SPEAKER_07]: in a battle anybody can die in a battle and if he dies then the ring is up for grabs so it does seem

[01:05:34] [SPEAKER_05]: like a very bad choice. Yeah um it occurred to me that Gilad Gala probably had his ring with him

[01:05:41] [SPEAKER_05]: also in battle but um at our didn't get a chance to you know choke him and steal it from him. No

[01:05:49] [SPEAKER_07]: that's the way. Yeah Gilad Gala wasn't captured as far as I could see. Yeah I imagine that

[01:06:01] [SPEAKER_05]: that the other elf warriors would you know move heaven and earth to prevent Gilad Gala from being captured

[01:06:09] [SPEAKER_05]: yeah as their hiking. Elrod this was a really meaty episode for Robert Armeo. Elrod

[01:06:18] [SPEAKER_05]: had a lot to do a lot of different things to do in the inside the episode he talks and so

[01:06:25] [SPEAKER_05]: just the head of the special effects talk about how he didn't know how to ride a horse before this. Yes

[01:06:31] [SPEAKER_05]: so he had to learn how to ride a horse and then ride a horse in close formation with other

[01:06:37] [SPEAKER_05]: people riding horses which terrifies me just to look at. I'm not sure that was really him because

[01:06:42] [SPEAKER_07]: the helmet hides the face that's in the long shots of the charge. It's definitely him though

[01:06:48] [SPEAKER_07]: there's one scene where they're they're coming straight on to the camera but they're they're

[01:06:54] [SPEAKER_07]: not charging at that point it's just a walk but that's definitely him on that horse and he

[01:06:59] [SPEAKER_07]: he stops that horse and the horse throws it's had a little bit and he manages yeah yeah. He

[01:07:05] [SPEAKER_05]: sort of joked about it in the inside the episode like oh yeah he was like don't lean to your

[01:07:10] [SPEAKER_05]: right because you'll hit that brand. Oh ho ho ho I was like oh my god I know you've got to act

[01:07:16] [SPEAKER_05]: and also not get killed like it's there's a lot going on there. Here put on all this armor

[01:07:22] [SPEAKER_05]: it's gonna make it heavy and hard for you to move and also the helmet might make it a little

[01:07:26] [SPEAKER_05]: hard for you to have peripheral vision alright don't hit that tree like that's a lot to to manage

[01:07:31] [SPEAKER_05]: all at once. I also think he was having the time of his life right definitely it's got to be so fun

[01:07:38] [SPEAKER_05]: to play I did think it was funny the the special effects guide said and he's never done

[01:07:44] [SPEAKER_05]: any fighting before and I was like nope he fought in game with drones

[01:07:49] [SPEAKER_05]: he he fought against the um didn't he fight the scene because he plays young Ned Stark

[01:07:55] [SPEAKER_07]: didn't he fight the sword of the morning at the tower and they fight outside the tower of joy

[01:08:01] [SPEAKER_05]: yeah I was like nope he's he's handled a sword before. Yeah I was like so excited I could like yell at the

[01:08:08] [SPEAKER_05]: TV um but uh I doubt he's fought from horseback before. Right which is amazing all together yeah

[01:08:17] [SPEAKER_07]: yes it looked amazing there's a move that his horse does which I'm I'm 100% sure that there

[01:08:23] [SPEAKER_07]: was a stunt writer writing for that part where the the horse rears up and then it

[01:08:30] [SPEAKER_07]: bucks and kicks out its feet and kicks an orc right in the chest nice yeah that is a that is a real

[01:08:37] [SPEAKER_07]: move historically that war horses were taught to do and you see the descendant of that in

[01:08:46] [SPEAKER_07]: like the the liposong stallions at the Spanish writing school in Vienna they they do that they perform

[01:08:53] [SPEAKER_07]: that move of course they're not taking anybody there's just doing the move yeah doing the move in

[01:08:58] [SPEAKER_07]: the air but um I'm not sure how they did that stunt but I think that that was a real horse doing

[01:09:05] [SPEAKER_07]: that maneuver but I guarantee it wasn't Robert Hermione right yeah that was an expert writer

[01:09:10] [SPEAKER_05]: I was in you know once and I was so excited to see the liposonger stallions and we went to you know

[01:09:17] [SPEAKER_05]: the place where you see them and they were like oh no they're on vacation and oh and

[01:09:25] [SPEAKER_05]: I have never been able to get out of my head the image of a bunch of horses like at the beach

[01:09:31] [SPEAKER_05]: on the lounge with like drinks little promise yeah I'm like oh yeah well they just sort of

[01:09:37] [SPEAKER_05]: vacation they work very hard but it's still on my you know bucket list to see that yes

[01:09:43] [SPEAKER_07]: and I have been able to see them at the Spanish writing school it was great yeah they're amazing

[01:09:50] [SPEAKER_07]: they are amazing I had one of their notes about the Elm's horses which is I love the look

[01:09:58] [SPEAKER_07]: of the gold armor that they have beautiful but I really hope it's only gold plating

[01:10:03] [SPEAKER_05]: because gold is way too soft to make good armor yeah it should be steel yes or I guess if they

[01:10:12] [SPEAKER_05]: had enough of it mid-throw and that would be a lot of mid-throw yeah that would be yeah um

[01:10:19] [SPEAKER_05]: yeah that's true I hadn't thought about that aspect of gold that it's a soft metal

[01:10:23] [SPEAKER_05]: yeah it's very soft it wouldn't stop an arrow yeah but the armor was exceptionally

[01:10:29] [SPEAKER_05]: beautiful on those horses the the team that puts together all of the costumes on this show

[01:10:36] [SPEAKER_05]: I hope they do you know some more extensive behind the scenes features about things like

[01:10:44] [SPEAKER_05]: the costumes I never can tired of seeing that stuff yeah they did great ones on Showgun and I

[01:10:50] [SPEAKER_05]: have gone back and rewatched the costume one like five times it's just so interesting how they put

[01:10:56] [SPEAKER_05]: those things together and the attention to detail and the differences between the different

[01:11:06] [SPEAKER_05]: who do that kind of work there this must be the dream job of a person who has like studied medieval

[01:11:13] [SPEAKER_05]: armor oh yeah to be like oh we need you to create armor for you know a race of elves in the

[01:11:20] [SPEAKER_05]: second age of middle earth and there's somebody who's like Christmas my birthday the person my

[01:11:26] [SPEAKER_05]: place is like all rolled into one that yes um so exciting I I I always think about the crafts people

[01:11:33] [SPEAKER_05]: I I was think about like somebody had to like you know hand so that to get it to look like that

[01:11:41] [SPEAKER_05]: like that that the hours and hours of work behind every shot in this in the series is just it's hard

[01:11:47] [SPEAKER_05]: to get your head around it sometimes you want to talk about our own dear next or no I don't want

[01:11:54] [SPEAKER_07]: to talk about our own dear because he could be dead I 100% do not think our own dear is dead

[01:12:01] [SPEAKER_05]: I sure hope not um and I'll tell you why I don't think he's dead when at our first of all okay

[01:12:08] [SPEAKER_05]: our ring dear sees at our and shoots an arrow at him and I didn't catch this the first time I watched it

[01:12:13] [SPEAKER_05]: at our caught the arrow in his hand yes amazing alright then he stabs our on dear with his own arrow

[01:12:21] [SPEAKER_05]: which has got to be like just adding insult to injury like that's my own arrow and then steps

[01:12:27] [SPEAKER_07]: can I just point out that arrows do not make good stabbing weapons no because it's almost impossible

[01:12:32] [SPEAKER_07]: to hold the shaft tightly enough to actually stab it into somebody yeah maybe elf arrows or maybe

[01:12:39] [SPEAKER_05]: I don't it doesn't make a lot of sense but then he stabs him in the other side and it's away from

[01:12:45] [SPEAKER_05]: camera so we can't really see it and it looks like from his motion it looks like he stabs him with

[01:12:50] [SPEAKER_05]: a dagger but then in Aaron dear falls away he's holding like a big huge long sword yes I'm like that

[01:12:57] [SPEAKER_05]: didn't quite add up but when he pushes Aaron dear down our and dear is fully still moving

[01:13:04] [SPEAKER_05]: yes he is and alert so I don't think he's dead and I don't think that they would let a character

[01:13:10] [SPEAKER_05]: of his like importance to the show die in such a like offhand way I sure hope not so I think he's

[01:13:19] [SPEAKER_05]: injured and alive and what's gonna happen to him in the next episode who knows but I really

[01:13:26] [SPEAKER_05]: hope that he's still with us for the whole series because I absolutely love Aaron dear he does

[01:13:31] [SPEAKER_05]: the best elf stuff right he he's an archer first of all which I associate with elves more than swords

[01:13:39] [SPEAKER_05]: and he does all the flips and jumps and sliding down things like balancing on things that like

[01:13:47] [SPEAKER_05]: that we all loved when Lego lost it at it it's so fun to watch him on screen is rail

[01:13:53] [SPEAKER_05]: cruise cordava is such a gifted physical actor yes and his ability the way he is so sad that it like

[01:14:03] [SPEAKER_05]: is emitting from my television oh my god that sadness is palpable that is a gift because in real

[01:14:11] [SPEAKER_05]: life he seems to always be happy every video I've ever seen of him he seems like the sweetest

[01:14:17] [SPEAKER_05]: happiest friendliest guy and then as our on dear he is tragic he's so tragic you know he's lost

[01:14:24] [SPEAKER_05]: bronwyn he says like he's taken everything for me like milling at ours his life's purpose at this point

[01:14:31] [SPEAKER_05]: the scene between him and gladriel was was great he saves her with his you know excellent

[01:14:38] [SPEAKER_05]: archery and then he's willing to spend his life to try to kill at our and she's this you know we need

[01:14:44] [SPEAKER_05]: all the shearers and convince him to join the battle with her which I don't know I wonder if he had

[01:14:53] [SPEAKER_05]: attacked at our in that moment and actually succeeded in killing him would the work army have been like

[01:14:58] [SPEAKER_05]: oh let's go home like what if you had none of them were like dying to attack a regeon it's

[01:15:05] [SPEAKER_05]: so what if taken over and said okay we're out here yeah he seemed to be second and command so he

[01:15:09] [SPEAKER_05]: would have been like oh we retreat retreat like let's get out of here you are a drummer you could still drum

[01:15:17] [SPEAKER_05]: so I don't know it might have been worth letting him try to go on us suicide mission to to kill

[01:15:23] [SPEAKER_05]: adar but I am glad that we got to see him sort of accidentally end up in charge of all the other

[01:15:29] [SPEAKER_05]: archers and then and then that moment when he realizes he's standing on the battlefield next to

[01:15:35] [SPEAKER_05]: high king and he's sort of like oh I need to bow or something wow I'm not gonna be done with the king

[01:15:41] [SPEAKER_05]: it that was pretty pretty cool there's no other Sylvan elves there so he is so out of his element

[01:15:49] [SPEAKER_05]: and I wonder like what the king was thinking if he was like how did I get here how did this guy

[01:15:54] [SPEAKER_05]: yeah let's see do I care um if he if he dies in the next episode I'm gonna be insoluble it's

[01:16:03] [SPEAKER_05]: gonna really upset me so let's all hope that doesn't happen yeah um elves have good medicine so

[01:16:11] [SPEAKER_05]: they should have there much harder than humans so that's true you might be okay you might be okay

[01:16:17] [SPEAKER_05]: the battle scenes were brutal well lit without looking like fake day fake night time

[01:16:27] [SPEAKER_05]: yes I thought that was very artfully done yes and you could see what was happening which was great yeah

[01:16:33] [SPEAKER_05]: and i've seen several people say are you disappointed we didn't get a big battle in

[01:16:38] [SPEAKER_05]: house of the dragon watch episode seven it rings a power because you know George R. Martin

[01:16:44] [SPEAKER_05]: famously didn't like writing battles he usually would skip to the end of the battle in the aftermath of

[01:16:51] [SPEAKER_05]: and we only got a handful of battles in the game of throne show yeah and um i think there are

[01:16:58] [SPEAKER_05]: people who just love seeing them i'm not i'm not like show me about all like that's not what

[01:17:03] [SPEAKER_05]: I come to TV for but when I get one I want it to be like this I want it to look like chaos and confusion

[01:17:11] [SPEAKER_05]: and and mud and blood on the ground and people being you know beheaded and people being shot

[01:17:18] [SPEAKER_05]: by the arrows of their own side because everything is crazy and all around you and i love that

[01:17:25] [SPEAKER_05]: every now and then a character has a moment of stillness where they look around and then they're back

[01:17:30] [SPEAKER_05]: in the fray it's it's um it reminds me of uh the beautiful battle of the bastards when uh there were

[01:17:37] [SPEAKER_05]: a couple of moments when john snow was able to like take a breath and look around and then he pulled

[01:17:42] [SPEAKER_05]: right back into it and it was so that episode is famous for reason it that battle was visceral

[01:17:49] [SPEAKER_05]: and amazing and i think this holds up to the same standard um yes yeah it was gorgeous and i've

[01:17:58] [SPEAKER_05]: seen some people saying it's better than helm's deep in the two towers um i don't like to make

[01:18:05] [SPEAKER_05]: those kind of comparisons i think they're both fantastic there was the moment

[01:18:11] [SPEAKER_05]: of the sunrise when they expect the el the dwarves and i'm like that is a blatant

[01:18:18] [SPEAKER_05]: like callback to helm's deep totally and i'm there for it that kind of thing i love right where

[01:18:24] [SPEAKER_05]: they're like look to the north and and you see this one elf come over the hill and he's sort

[01:18:30] [SPEAKER_05]: of listing to the side in this hell and you're like that's not Gandalf on shadow facts no it really isn't

[01:18:38] [SPEAKER_05]: oh no and then for el ront repeating during will come during will come yeah was it just about broke my heart

[01:18:48] [SPEAKER_05]: because his belief in his friend was so strong and he he was still saying it even after

[01:18:53] [SPEAKER_05]: that elf was like he's close the doors to cazadum they're not coming and he's like during will come

[01:18:59] [SPEAKER_05]: turn look um i mean and his heart was broken yes that's why he was captured by adar is he

[01:19:06] [SPEAKER_05]: trying to give it up at that point even though after the elf whose name is what volt vollegeel

[01:19:12] [SPEAKER_05]: delivers his message that the the dwarves aren't coming gale gallad basically is like

[01:19:19] [SPEAKER_05]: all right rally the troops yeah he just he's like i we can't stop fighting so right

[01:19:27] [SPEAKER_05]: let's keep going and he was amazing on the battlefield his weapon was this very long

[01:19:35] [SPEAKER_05]: spear with like a blade at either end which reminded me very strongly of the Japanese Naganata

[01:19:42] [SPEAKER_05]: which was primarily used by women samurai because it's a little bit later weight and has a longer

[01:19:48] [SPEAKER_05]: reach which allowed them to fight against men more effectively with their smaller size and shorter arms

[01:19:56] [SPEAKER_05]: and in the hands of gale gallad who is not a small person yeah it was impressive he was just

[01:20:05] [SPEAKER_05]: slicing down enemies with it and i could watch that all day he was spinning and whirling around

[01:20:11] [SPEAKER_05]: with it it was so beautiful in his like flashy armor and the fact that that el rond was like you

[01:20:17] [SPEAKER_05]: shouldn't be here and he's like the king plongs where you know where the battle is the most yeah

[01:20:22] [SPEAKER_05]: yeah like i'm the king that doesn't mean i sit out battles and to his credit adar also was like

[01:20:28] [SPEAKER_05]: he was in the battle too yes he wasn't sitting it out and i think it takes a special kind of

[01:20:35] [SPEAKER_05]: leader to be at the front and token likes to write leaders who are in it with their with their

[01:20:42] [SPEAKER_05]: arm you know theater in it with his army airborne in it with his army like they don't sit back

[01:20:50] [SPEAKER_07]: and let other people do their fighting for them um one of the things that i liked about the battle was

[01:20:58] [SPEAKER_07]: um the elements of siege warfare of pseudo medieval siege warfare i really loved the trevishes

[01:21:08] [SPEAKER_07]: yeah and trevishes are you know a historically real thing but one of the things i liked about

[01:21:17] [SPEAKER_07]: these fantasy trevishes was when adar's forces used them to damn the river yeah and they need

[01:21:26] [SPEAKER_07]: do that because the orcs can't swim so in order to get across they have to damn why they do that

[01:21:35] [SPEAKER_07]: and then they have that siege engine that they call a ravager um that is purely an invention

[01:21:44] [SPEAKER_07]: of the show there's no historical reality to a to a gadget like that and it's very mechanically

[01:21:52] [SPEAKER_07]: sophisticated because it's like a battering ram but um they drive anchors into the wall and then

[01:22:02] [SPEAKER_07]: they have coils springs that they wind by you know the orcs pushing they're like levers

[01:22:11] [SPEAKER_07]: attached to the springs and then they release those springs and it drives the battering ram

[01:22:18] [SPEAKER_07]: forward like a piston and as far as i know pre and dustrilly there was no such thing as a

[01:22:26] [SPEAKER_07]: piston so but yeah impressive engineering yeah it's quite a piece of engineering but it looks

[01:22:33] [SPEAKER_05]: very cool yeah and then so elron you know broke the ropes holding part of it yeah and you know that

[01:22:42] [SPEAKER_05]: lacked the troll yeah but it it didn't completely disabled the device because it was still a

[01:22:48] [SPEAKER_05]: battering ram that the people could then use to finish the job so what a brilliant piece of war

[01:22:56] [SPEAKER_05]: machinery and um i love that in the credits there are people credited as orcs engineers

[01:23:04] [SPEAKER_05]: i didn't notice that that is good i was like did they go to MIT like where did that engineer get his degree

[01:23:11] [SPEAKER_05]: like i'm just very impressed with the work engineering and the black they're called engineers

[01:23:15] [SPEAKER_05]: it's so cool yeah i didn't know that that wasn't an existing type of war machine that's cool

[01:23:24] [SPEAKER_05]: good invention of the show yeah so i have started in my notes calling

[01:23:31] [SPEAKER_05]: gill gallet gill gaddatti and i can't stop it i can't stop myself once i heard that i was like

[01:23:39] [SPEAKER_05]: that's too cute i have to keep saying it um because and he's not even really my type i don't

[01:23:47] [SPEAKER_05]: particularly like you know i mean like he's a good looking guy but it's not because i'm attracted to him

[01:23:52] [SPEAKER_05]: i just think it's a funny name and i think you know the fandom that has decided that

[01:24:00] [SPEAKER_05]: Pedro Pascal is daddy there's a lot of daddy stuff about him on the internet and it's spreading to other

[01:24:06] [SPEAKER_05]: fandoms and and it's i don't know i just i find it all kind of funny um i'm not daddy isn't a word i use for

[01:24:17] [SPEAKER_05]: people i'm romantically interested in i find that creepy but creepy for whatever reason gill gaddatti

[01:24:24] [SPEAKER_05]: just cracks me up too much and you can't stop it oh i said it to some friends of mine and they were all

[01:24:30] [SPEAKER_05]: like gill gaddatti and then they couldn't stop it either so it's just it's addictive um that's funny

[01:24:38] [SPEAKER_05]: so uh ready i'm all done with with the things i wanted to talk about what do you have left

[01:24:44] [SPEAKER_07]: i just have notes left i have all all we covered all of my major points go for it um i've

[01:24:52] [SPEAKER_07]: noticed a couple of callbacks to the main trilogy um gladriel with the cloak over her head

[01:25:00] [SPEAKER_07]: moving among the orcs is reminiscent of Frodo and Sam wearing ork armor in more door oh yeah

[01:25:07] [SPEAKER_07]: and traveling with the orcs for a while um and our and deer running down the wall and on to

[01:25:14] [SPEAKER_07]: the troll is reminiscent of legolas running up onto the elephant yep yeah very cool yeah

[01:25:24] [SPEAKER_07]: when at our and when elrond and at our or negotiating um at our says to elrond you have the beauty

[01:25:32] [SPEAKER_07]: of your four mother million of the valar and i did a uh double take about that because uh

[01:25:43] [SPEAKER_07]: million is elrond's great great grandmother but she wasn't one of the valar she was a Maya

[01:25:50] [SPEAKER_07]: but i what i found out i did a little bit of research and what i found out is that the term

[01:25:55] [SPEAKER_07]: Maya does not appear in the main trilogy of the books um or in the appendices so they don't have

[01:26:03] [SPEAKER_07]: the right to use the term for the half of the day of the valar it only that Maya only appears

[01:26:10] [SPEAKER_07]: in the silver-illine itself so unless they get the right to use that term they won't ever be able

[01:26:17] [SPEAKER_07]: to return to refer to any of the beings who are Maya which includes sauron yep as

[01:26:24] [SPEAKER_07]: Maya in in the show so i thought that was interesting that is interesting yeah i clocked that too

[01:26:30] [SPEAKER_05]: and i and i thought wasn't she a Maya and then i just forgot about it and moved on so i'm glad

[01:26:37] [SPEAKER_05]: you brought it up that's so interesting so when i was practicing law at least at first i was an

[01:26:43] [SPEAKER_05]: intellectual property lawyer so questions of rights and how that affects the results in the creative

[01:26:51] [SPEAKER_05]: output i find particularly fascinating and the way that the creators of this show have to dodge

[01:26:57] [SPEAKER_05]: and weave around yes elements of the lore in order to respect the rights that they have and haven't

[01:27:03] [SPEAKER_05]: been granted is it's like a whole other layer of enjoyment of the show for me just because of my background

[01:27:10] [SPEAKER_07]: yeah you know it it's kind of a a daffed undertaking you're going to tell stories that are

[01:27:21] [SPEAKER_07]: the silver-illine but you don't have the rights the silver-illine so you're just going to use the

[01:27:27] [SPEAKER_07]: bits from the appendices to to build a foundation to either almost creating a parallel

[01:27:37] [SPEAKER_07]: version out of what they have the rights to and i think people who complain about

[01:27:43] [SPEAKER_07]: the way that the show deviates from the source material you know those dozen people in the

[01:27:49] [SPEAKER_07]: world who've actually read the silver-illine aren't giving them credit for telling a story that

[01:27:57] [SPEAKER_07]: they don't have rights to but doing it legally yeah i dance they're doing and uh and when

[01:28:04] [SPEAKER_05]: pointed out that one of the things they don't have the rights to is the name and guitar and so

[01:28:10] [SPEAKER_05]: they must have gone back and gotten special permission for just that name uh because if he didn't

[01:28:17] [SPEAKER_05]: have a name i guess they could just call him lord of gifts right you could just say i am the lord of gifts

[01:28:23] [SPEAKER_07]: but if somebody's gonna say but what's your name dude yeah or messenger i guess they could

[01:28:30] [SPEAKER_05]: call him messenger or something but yeah it's much better with the name and they must have gotten you

[01:28:35] [SPEAKER_05]: know special extra license for that and i have one of the things that i liked in this episode was

[01:28:41] [SPEAKER_07]: the way that calibremboer and sauron sort of fence over his identity and first calibremboer says

[01:28:49] [SPEAKER_07]: you are he aren't you and just he and they capitalize he in the in the captions um and

[01:29:00] [SPEAKER_07]: but he doesn't say sauron at first but then later he says you are sauron and uh you know i thought

[01:29:10] [SPEAKER_07]: was powerful the way that they worked up to calibremboer realizing his true identity and then

[01:29:18] [SPEAKER_05]: naming him we haven't really talked about the the scene first when when calibremboer notices the

[01:29:27] [SPEAKER_05]: mouse pattern and then and that's our comes into the room and he's like wait wait for it

[01:29:34] [SPEAKER_05]: and you know the mouse does its thing and and it has like why am i looking at a mouse

[01:29:40] [SPEAKER_05]: and calibremboer's like he so befuddled at this point that he doesn't realize he needs to

[01:29:45] [SPEAKER_05]: give context to his words that's right like the mouse and people were like what are you talking

[01:29:49] [SPEAKER_05]: about and even when he goes to talk to me or donia he's like he the candles and she's like what

[01:29:56] [SPEAKER_05]: what what are you what um i thought that was very realistic actually because he is so distressed

[01:30:03] [SPEAKER_05]: he's not even thinking straight at that point um and the scene between him and calibremboer was so

[01:30:10] [SPEAKER_05]: moving not just because they were saying goodbye but also because they were confessing to each other

[01:30:16] [SPEAKER_05]: that they had each fallen for sauron's lies not been strong enough to resist them and that he had

[01:30:24] [SPEAKER_05]: offered them each something they wanted and that it was their own desires that did them in

[01:30:30] [SPEAKER_05]: that was really powerful and i think it's the way that a lot of evil happens in the world

[01:30:37] [SPEAKER_05]: is that people are tempted by something they want and they justify doing things they know are wrong

[01:30:45] [SPEAKER_05]: in order to get the thing they want and they lie to themselves yes um it was a it was a

[01:31:00] [SPEAKER_05]: we're going to take a little break and we'll be back with some fantastic listener feedback

[01:31:26] [SPEAKER_05]: and we are back we have a couple of pieces of feedback that are about episode six that we didn't

[01:31:33] [SPEAKER_05]: get in the last episode so we'll start there ready want to read the first one there?

[01:31:39] [SPEAKER_07]: yes the first is from all my contrabas who we this episode was amped up such a great episode

[01:31:46] [SPEAKER_07]: oh sauron is doing just what i thought with kelebremboer so sad sauron's manipulation knows no

[01:31:53] [SPEAKER_07]: bounds why is no one listening to collagrial how cool was it when ferazon touched the magic

[01:32:00] [SPEAKER_07]: bowling ball i forget what it's called it's a palentir by the way alma uh so did that vision he had

[01:32:06] [SPEAKER_07]: tell him how brand was sauron i feel like all he saw was power and the sweetest moment thus far was

[01:32:13] [SPEAKER_07]: copy having a kiss there's a lipsy moji can't wait to hear y'all thoughts smiley face kissy face

[01:32:21] [SPEAKER_05]: emoji thanks i never know how to describe emojis yeah i always sort of make it up as i go along

[01:32:28] [SPEAKER_05]: i first of all magic bowling ball that's hilarious uh secondly i'm not sure if he saw that how

[01:32:35] [SPEAKER_05]: brand was sauron or if he just saw that how brand was like more important than he thought he was

[01:32:42] [SPEAKER_05]: is part of all this big story that's unclear i this is a good opportunity to talk about how cool

[01:32:49] [SPEAKER_05]: the effect is that they've chosen for when someone touches the palentir yes it like crackles out and

[01:32:54] [SPEAKER_05]: takes over the whole screen that's yes that is just gorgeous and i think ferazon saw

[01:33:02] [SPEAKER_05]: his own future and he saw things that are powerful and things that are dark and things that

[01:33:10] [SPEAKER_05]: are going to have an effect on him i don't think we saw everything that he saw i agree um i agree with you

[01:33:20] [SPEAKER_05]: about poppy having a kiss that was real cute um even if that guy tasted like lizard

[01:33:28] [SPEAKER_05]: yeah i don't even want to know what lizard tastes like like oh gross oh i'm like chicken i have

[01:33:34] [SPEAKER_05]: eaten alligator i guess that's kind of like a lizard and it did taste like chicken

[01:33:40] [SPEAKER_05]: erica price says greetings starting off strong with arndir easily dispatching some wayward orks

[01:33:46] [SPEAKER_05]: but what's on the map i couldn't read it is that from elrun's company uh that map was a map

[01:33:52] [SPEAKER_05]: for the orks to follow to get to a reggaeum is arndir going to rescue gladriel

[01:33:58] [SPEAKER_05]: Kelly bimbo i died laughing last week that's what um voice detects here's when i think

[01:34:09] [SPEAKER_05]: much putty in sauron's hands oh look anatar has shiny new black robes this is probably a bad

[01:34:16] [SPEAKER_05]: sign did he say precious twice yes he did it yes he did love the seaside scenes in numanor

[01:34:23] [SPEAKER_05]: i wonder where this location is because it's absolutely stunning all hail queen mirial only two more

[01:34:30] [SPEAKER_05]: ache yeah i can't believe that we're already at the end of the season that's shocking

[01:34:37] [SPEAKER_05]: and i also want to know where that location was and i saw the name and i didn't recognize it

[01:34:43] [SPEAKER_05]: in one of the like behind the scenes things so and i thought it was the same location that was used

[01:34:48] [SPEAKER_05]: in an episode of foundation so i spent a bunch of time like fast-forwarding through episodes of

[01:34:53] [SPEAKER_05]: foundation to find the scene and it doesn't look like it at all yeah i just just remember that

[01:34:59] [SPEAKER_05]: yeah thanks erka so now we're at episode seven feedback

[01:35:07] [SPEAKER_07]: all right and we have all my contranas again

[01:35:12] [SPEAKER_07]: holy cow would a great episode the siege of arigion was the brutal battle we did not get in house

[01:35:18] [SPEAKER_07]: of the dragon ll that's all that that's did not get yet in houses we did get the dragon battle

[01:35:26] [SPEAKER_07]: so that's true yeah no but really it was super brutal i started losing it when elron's horse was

[01:35:33] [SPEAKER_07]: murdered i know that's that was terrible and we've got a crying emoji and a mad facing emoji

[01:35:41] [SPEAKER_07]: then core blind kelebrembo kelebrembo just broke my heart i was glad to see his eyes were finally

[01:35:48] [SPEAKER_07]: open to the great deceiver brownie face i'll be at a little too late kelebrembo or did try to

[01:35:55] [SPEAKER_07]: the rings right yes i think you did yeah he threw him in the in the forge fire no effect

[01:36:02] [SPEAKER_05]: that he didn't even get hot and then he tried to smash him no effect yeah because they're too powerful

[01:36:07] [SPEAKER_07]: for that in distant mark yeah our endier no please tell me he is not dead we told you he is not dead

[01:36:14] [SPEAKER_07]: penny told you that i'm not sure penny sure yeah i'm version and where the hell is Doran and the

[01:36:25] [SPEAKER_07]: two my eyes to teary face emoji this episode was so full of emotions i look forward to

[01:36:32] [SPEAKER_07]: you're the cast but can i say how much i hate trolls yeah yes yeah or with you there although i

[01:36:40] [SPEAKER_05]: kind of also love them because it was fun to watch mark make Bernie writes in well that was tremendous

[01:36:48] [SPEAKER_05]: if people thought the battle of the bastards was good then they really need to watch this because

[01:36:52] [SPEAKER_07]: that rivals home steep itself high praise all right yeah karen schmilk cone says for a serious episode

[01:37:01] [SPEAKER_07]: i have one silly thing to point out the extra excited drummer or at the beginning of the attack

[01:37:08] [SPEAKER_07]: on the city he was like i've been waiting my whole life to drum an army into battle he was pretty

[01:37:14] [SPEAKER_05]: enthusiastic he was he was very cute we got an email from matchman who says hello ladies i just

[01:37:22] [SPEAKER_05]: decided you'll quick note i listened to your season one podcast while i was living in Washington DC

[01:37:27] [SPEAKER_05]: and now i am listening to season two whilst i am living in Wellington New Zealand oh my god i

[01:37:33] [SPEAKER_05]: wish i was in Wellington New Zealand all right your breakdown and insight is quite helpful and enjoyable

[01:37:37] [SPEAKER_05]: to listen to thank you the only thing i would ask is if you could fix pennies audio levels she

[01:37:43] [SPEAKER_05]: comes in much quieter including when there are guests if it's raining and it's spring and Wellington

[01:37:48] [SPEAKER_05]: i can't hear her no matter how much i turn up the volume i listen through apple podcast in case that

[01:37:53] [SPEAKER_05]: makes a difference keep up the great work best matchman well that i spent a bunch of times

[01:37:59] [SPEAKER_05]: since receiving your email trying to figure out why that is and i got a lot of advice from

[01:38:05] [SPEAKER_05]: other podcaster and i am working on my tech and hopefully it is better with this episode and i

[01:38:12] [SPEAKER_05]: am in the key working on it because i understand how frustrating that can be thank you for

[01:38:18] [SPEAKER_05]: it out we got a bunch of voice mail including one from our own dear and when i will play it now

[01:38:26] [SPEAKER_01]: hey penny and archmaced really how are you guys doing thank you so much for what i'm sure is going to

[01:38:34] [SPEAKER_01]: be an awesome coverage of this incredibly epic episode i just finished watching it and i can't even

[01:38:41] [SPEAKER_01]: organise my thoughts it was so full on so intense i love how they started with kind of some

[01:38:46] [SPEAKER_01]: quieter plot moments and then built it up absolutely heartbreaking seeing our friend brimby

[01:38:53] [SPEAKER_01]: caliburimbois is descended to being completely dominated but man i loved how he figured out

[01:39:00] [SPEAKER_01]: there little time loop that was very cool and how he cut his thumb off that actually went there

[01:39:05] [SPEAKER_01]: i was like are they going to do this they're totally did it and midania oh my goodness i just

[01:39:11] [SPEAKER_01]: could not get over it that the way that happened i'm speechless i'm really pleased at the show

[01:39:19] [SPEAKER_01]: and as i'm not afraid to shock us and that was definitely shocking so i guess all those people who

[01:39:24] [SPEAKER_01]: thought that she was maybe um glad you're a daughter calibrean she's not um what else

[01:39:33] [SPEAKER_01]: i don't dear he's surely not dead i had to watch this second time to make sure that he was

[01:39:38] [SPEAKER_01]: crawling when at i walked away and i'm pretty um assertion that he's going to be okay and everything

[01:39:45] [SPEAKER_01]: else that happened it was just yeah variant ends my only gripe was i did find a little bit

[01:39:53] [SPEAKER_01]: challenging with what was actually happening with how many pieces of the army were in different places

[01:39:59] [SPEAKER_01]: and at the end why without only 20 hours left that was a bit distracting to me but it was all

[01:40:05] [SPEAKER_01]: that to see our lovely high oven king go galard gg the hk swinging his spear egg loss and

[01:40:15] [SPEAKER_01]: he was absolutely badass that was totally worth it to see him out of the office and on the

[01:40:20] [SPEAKER_05]: battlefield anyway thanks again and see you next week bye! Thanks and when you are a missed i

[01:40:35] [SPEAKER_05]: also heard from Renee i believe this is Renee's first time calling in to this particular podcast

[01:40:41] [SPEAKER_05]: and her voicemail had an accompanying email that said lordi lordi miscordi angry emoji and grimoji

[01:40:49] [SPEAKER_05]: headblown emoji what in the what what cry cry cry cry for crying emojis so let's hear what she has to say

[01:40:58] [SPEAKER_00]: i and when hype and he i am calling in about the rooms of power this episode here has my

[01:41:06] [SPEAKER_00]: nerve so freaking messed up i was super excited super stoked when it started i was like yes just

[01:41:13] [SPEAKER_00]: reminds me of the battle of the master's from game of thrones this is going to be so epic

[01:41:19] [SPEAKER_00]: which it was but oh mg i am sick i cannot believe this this is it just turned out horrible

[01:41:28] [SPEAKER_00]: started out so good for it to end so horrible error on i mean i was living him i'm like

[01:41:35] [SPEAKER_00]: error on has the rick-dryx here going on is so thick and nice and pretty and error on

[01:41:41] [SPEAKER_00]: has a little gangster in him i was like okay error on i see you at first i thought you you know

[01:41:47] [SPEAKER_00]: i don't know i wasn't checking for you but i was checking for you in this episode because i love when

[01:41:53] [SPEAKER_00]: he told error on you with a door told hit error on that you're just a courtyere more suited to

[01:42:02] [SPEAKER_00]: more suited to willing to scroll down the sword and then error on responded back you have never

[01:42:07] [SPEAKER_00]: seen me will either i was like yes gangster gangster i love it and just episode it's just it just went

[01:42:16] [SPEAKER_00]: down here it went down here it went down here rip-backs because i was i was i just i just knew

[01:42:23] [SPEAKER_00]: that prince d'oron and d'yza and the rest of the ills were going to say today like

[01:42:27] [SPEAKER_00]: prince d'oron said he believes in loyalty but i understand he had to save his home but oh man

[01:42:34] [SPEAKER_00]: i am man this episode i'm telling you i just cannot take it the orcs they are super duper ugly

[01:42:41] [SPEAKER_00]: so ugly i mean they're trying to make people have sympathy i have no sympathy for them there

[01:42:47] [SPEAKER_00]: is super duper ugly eight r is super duper ugly and i want them all today really really really bad

[01:42:54] [SPEAKER_00]: and sell a brim by i feel so sorry for him so wrong like you told so wrong you really are

[01:43:01] [SPEAKER_00]: a great deceiver you can deceive yourself he reminds me of someone else i know who's lying

[01:43:06] [SPEAKER_00]: lie to their lives that lies because he definitely he's a manipulator because he knows that

[01:43:13] [SPEAKER_00]: he's telling the lie just like the other person i mentioned names and the elves man he had them

[01:43:19] [SPEAKER_00]: under their kids control but i was so glad when they found me realized that it was still wrong

[01:43:25] [SPEAKER_00]: so wrong and not sell a brim by but give me permission to name because i do myself names and these

[01:43:29] [SPEAKER_00]: names are really hard to pronounce so yeah forgive me and then at worst this name anodar aradir aradir

[01:43:39] [SPEAKER_00]: o mg police i i never read the books and i don't have a desire to read the books but i may have to

[01:43:46] [SPEAKER_00]: go in and read the books because police tell me that aradir is not dead i will i'm my good

[01:43:52] [SPEAKER_00]: oh my goodness i just knew he was going to be a part of the cast forever and please just don't tell

[01:43:58] [SPEAKER_00]: me that he's dead like this episode i could uh the giant the troll whatever the heck he was

[01:44:05] [SPEAKER_00]: he reminded me of um one one in the game of thrones i sell he was on the batide and i was so glad

[01:44:11] [SPEAKER_00]: we're naked together as a team and took his big ass out i'm so glad that they did that but this

[01:44:17] [SPEAKER_00]: episode i cannot read it or read that enough this episode has me all messed up because i thought

[01:44:23] [SPEAKER_00]: he was hit somewhere and i'd be down who are already peace in the touch you guys they're the by yeah

[01:44:31] [SPEAKER_05]: thanks Renee uh listeners may not know that Renee just gave Elron the highest of high praise

[01:44:40] [SPEAKER_05]: because she loves Rick Grimes with like a deep passion yes and so comparing him to Rick Grimes

[01:44:48] [SPEAKER_05]: is a huge compliment and calling him a little bit gangster she's right that was an amazing line

[01:44:54] [SPEAKER_05]: like you haven't seen me wheeled either and uh i really appreciate her perspective uh one thing

[01:45:01] [SPEAKER_05]: uh aradir is not in the books so that will not help you answer any questions reading the books he

[01:45:07] [SPEAKER_05]: is a show creation and i think you know by now that we love him and we don't want him to be dead

[01:45:13] [SPEAKER_05]: and uh we love the actor and the only thing good that would come out of them killing

[01:45:21] [SPEAKER_05]: our own dear in this show would be if then is male cruise kordova gets cast in like 75 other

[01:45:28] [SPEAKER_05]: things yes because he would suddenly be very much more available that's it that's the only

[01:45:35] [SPEAKER_05]: upside i could see to that happening oh let's see we got another voicemail from Denise loyal listener

[01:45:43] [SPEAKER_03]: hello ladies is Denise offering some feedback on episode seven that brings a power

[01:45:48] [SPEAKER_03]: this was my far the best episode of the series the special effects in the battle sequences were amazing

[01:45:54] [SPEAKER_03]: on par with the hop at the battle of five armies and some areas even better i was like it's raining

[01:46:01] [SPEAKER_03]: works everywhere the up close impersonal scenes throughout the battle in this episode

[01:46:06] [SPEAKER_03]: rival that of the battle of Helm's deep uh which is my favorite TV movie battle ever now i ask you

[01:46:13] [SPEAKER_03]: where the heck was high king gild galad otherwise known as hk gg is turned by one of your

[01:46:19] [SPEAKER_03]: listeners throughout the battle we see him in the beginning shots at the battle and then

[01:46:25] [SPEAKER_03]: nowhere to be seen until they were down to the last twenty elves he is the high king after all

[01:46:29] [SPEAKER_03]: and while elrond is his harald he should have been more prominent because as we know he will

[01:46:35] [SPEAKER_03]: prove to be a significant battle warrior later down the line i have to say i was impressed by the fact

[01:46:42] [SPEAKER_03]: energar was able to hold kill a brimbor in a mental holodec for weeks on end

[01:46:47] [SPEAKER_03]: call attack but i was also impressed with how kill a brimbor's mind knew something was wrong

[01:46:51] [SPEAKER_03]: and was fighting backs subconsciously with the repeated sightings of the mouse they kept

[01:46:57] [SPEAKER_03]: harking that mouse so much i thought so if i was going to step on it glad we were spared that

[01:47:02] [SPEAKER_03]: now let's talk about the kiss i believe this was the kiss that uh more for Clark reference

[01:47:07] [SPEAKER_03]: in her pressur but i'm concerned still that there may be another one out there lurking with

[01:47:14] [SPEAKER_03]: saran which will be pretty good nothing better happen to erandier he's my favorite character

[01:47:19] [SPEAKER_03]: in a show they can kill off eight eight our twenty ways to sunday but they better not lay a

[01:47:24] [SPEAKER_03]: finger on erandier and protect durin and deset all cost would have fantastic couple

[01:47:29] [SPEAKER_03]: but a fantastic relationship i love the way they communicate and they communicate

[01:47:35] [SPEAKER_03]: for connection and i just love that but by question two you ladies is this with one episode

[01:47:42] [SPEAKER_03]: left and three more seasons to go i'm wondering where they plan to end the series whether at

[01:47:47] [SPEAKER_03]: events surrounding nomenor or at the battle of bar door where ill sealed her cuts off saran's ring

[01:47:52] [SPEAKER_03]: in uh lure the rings if they do the doot nomenor story right then we are in for several treats

[01:47:59] [SPEAKER_03]: in terms of special effects and a first not even seen in the movies which is we will get to see

[01:48:05] [SPEAKER_03]: inside saran's layer inside mordor so unless i miss the memo i'd like to know where you think

[01:48:12] [SPEAKER_03]: the series will end uh thank you ladies and i let's look forward to hearing your thoughts

[01:48:18] [SPEAKER_05]: thanks Denise i am ennwin and i have talked about this a bunch of times and she believes that

[01:48:25] [SPEAKER_05]: the series will end basically at the opening sequence of the fellowship of the ring movie

[01:48:32] [SPEAKER_05]: which is is ill door cutting the ring off saran's finger i think that's as good a gas as any

[01:48:39] [SPEAKER_05]: i don't know the lure like she does obviously but it makes sense to me that that's where it would end

[01:48:45] [SPEAKER_05]: or you know somewhere around that is where it will end i i don't have that's where i assume

[01:48:54] [SPEAKER_05]: it will end yeah now how they're gonna end this season i have no idea

[01:48:59] [SPEAKER_05]: because yeah like we talked about there's so much going on i i don't know what's going to be

[01:49:04] [SPEAKER_05]: the cliffhangers i don't know what's going to get resolved uh i don't know how they're going to do it

[01:49:11] [SPEAKER_05]: in less than four hours i can't wait for episode eight so up until now we've had screeners

[01:49:19] [SPEAKER_05]: and so and when and i were able to watch the next episode immediately after we recorded

[01:49:25] [SPEAKER_05]: the podcast for an episode but we don't have episode eight nobody got episode eight

[01:49:30] [SPEAKER_05]: so we're waiting along with everybody else and it's saturday so five days

[01:49:38] [SPEAKER_05]: yeah five days i don't know how we're gonna make it

[01:49:46] [SPEAKER_05]: our final voicemail comes from Sam

[01:49:50] [SPEAKER_06]: oh what a fantastic episode i'm so happy and i'm so excited i hope other people are and i can't wait

[01:49:57] [SPEAKER_06]: listen to the podcast and hear listener feedback just truly incredible episode it's

[01:50:03] [SPEAKER_06]: everything i've ever wanted from this show and more and i figured an honor of such an incredible

[01:50:09] [SPEAKER_06]: episode i would do in in the morium for this episode so r ip to the ones we've lost r ip

[01:50:17] [SPEAKER_06]: to merdonia calibrin borne may have forgotten your name but unfortunately for you sour on

[01:50:23] [SPEAKER_06]: did not what a horrific way to die speaking of horrific deaths that runs horse

[01:50:30] [SPEAKER_06]: r ip to that cutie pie who high kicked and orphaned the face just did

[01:50:37] [SPEAKER_06]: your death was not in vain it gave us the sexier side of the all-around and i for one thank you for

[01:50:43] [SPEAKER_06]: it all right p to rean you know like a boss when you pull that arrow out of your own body

[01:50:50] [SPEAKER_06]: and use it to make the explosion though and kill a bunch of works respect enjoy the lar but

[01:50:57] [SPEAKER_06]: the the lar yeah all right he did orcs i'm wondering how bad you must smell dead as opposed to a

[01:51:05] [SPEAKER_06]: r ip goodzilla your orcs match was what i got a little too much and it's been floating through

[01:51:13] [SPEAKER_06]: my head since i for saw you still kind of thinking about it we know that these newer generation

[01:51:18] [SPEAKER_06]: of orcs were birthed rather than created birth this ginormous creature i don't know if i want to

[01:51:28] [SPEAKER_06]: but that was just running through my head of oh no out uh r ip to a reggan i mean the city's going

[01:51:35] [SPEAKER_06]: right what is left standing in that city is either on fire and orc ledon it's not coming back

[01:51:43] [SPEAKER_06]: r ip to Durans dead dwarves they're not adding in desa there precious desa king Durin is going to

[01:51:51] [SPEAKER_06]: go on from murdering his own kinfolk to releasing the ballrog the monster what in the family

[01:51:58] [SPEAKER_06]: annihilators happening in our precious misty mountains or righgan has my attention has my interest

[01:52:03] [SPEAKER_06]: has my focus but Kazadoum has my heart and it has since season one who I'm nervous for them

[01:52:11] [SPEAKER_06]: and almost all right p to my dinner yeah no i was eating dinner and i was finishing up the

[01:52:16] [SPEAKER_06]: episode and killed rembor went to go chop off his thumb and i had to read flesh squelchins

[01:52:21] [SPEAKER_06]: while also hearing the noise i'm not ready who's will is my dear indeed sir thankfully i did not

[01:52:31] [SPEAKER_06]: vomit but i was definitely caught off guard as was my stomach so just some quick points like

[01:52:37] [SPEAKER_06]: Durans break heart speech i loved it uh l rod is so sexy i'll dirty it up in angry and fighting

[01:52:44] [SPEAKER_06]: yes sir where where is this ben i appreciate this side of him too you can add ar was like

[01:52:53] [SPEAKER_06]: you have the beauty of your former mother until you everyone knows his own spirit speaking of attractive

[01:53:00] [SPEAKER_06]: yes Gilgazati riding in on your white horse to save the day he doesn't know where comes just

[01:53:10] [SPEAKER_06]: go back to your hill and be buried sir you've been hiking and you've been around for

[01:53:17] [SPEAKER_06]: centuries and in other battles that the best you got with my gosh it's embarrassing i'm embarrassed for

[01:53:25] [SPEAKER_06]: watching color rembor story like especially with the background you gave anlin is so heartbreaking

[01:53:33] [SPEAKER_06]: like you guys as you do with this pod like made me appreciate the story in the character so much more

[01:53:38] [SPEAKER_06]: and seeing everything he's going through adds so much context and it just breaks my heart i mean

[01:53:45] [SPEAKER_06]: bravo to Charles Edwards i'm i'm so attached to him and he's so relatable at this point also

[01:53:53] [SPEAKER_06]: if i have any of you find what salaron is doing to color rembor as familiar did that is a bad

[01:54:01] [SPEAKER_06]: relationship whether it's work family friends romantic get out it's real bad i mean like what in the

[01:54:09] [SPEAKER_06]: darvo is salaron doing to poor color rembor it is heartbreaking i i did kind of crack up a little

[01:54:16] [SPEAKER_06]: bit as he was walking through a city that's being decimated he looks like that meme of that dog

[01:54:21] [SPEAKER_06]: that a cartoon dog that's in a room where it's all on fire and the dog is like it's fine

[01:54:26] [SPEAKER_06]: we just believe that bug is in my brain air and deer perfect every time i see him i'm happy and

[01:54:32] [SPEAKER_06]: hopeful no matter what's going on if he dies we write right i mean this this can happen so i have

[01:54:37] [SPEAKER_06]: two more questions and you guys are so wonderful impatient with my questions i do google and try to

[01:54:41] [SPEAKER_06]: figure it up for him on the little lost sound doesn't lie technically so when he said morgoth

[01:54:47] [SPEAKER_06]: tortured him i'm very confused because of stuff i've read briefly has said that he was a disciple

[01:54:52] [SPEAKER_06]: and followed morgoth in middle earth but morgoth tortured him under a confused we could add some

[01:54:58] [SPEAKER_06]: background that would really help me and then we know it's all on can mine control the soldiers that

[01:55:02] [SPEAKER_06]: have sort of bought and dim being a good being what were the elves plans once they found sauron

[01:55:09] [SPEAKER_06]: because we know that they you know not spoilers we know it's in the movies they they get the ring

[01:55:13] [SPEAKER_06]: from him and it because it has his power and that's how they're able to defeat him partially he doesn't

[01:55:19] [SPEAKER_06]: have that yet so like what what were their plans he's so powerful and is so hard to kill yes you

[01:55:24] [SPEAKER_06]: have eight hours crown from sauron that he has but they neither have the crown no about it or

[01:55:32] [SPEAKER_06]: the only person who does gladrial is no longer there so like what was their plan once they

[01:55:36] [SPEAKER_06]: approached him it seemed like we saw what would have happened so i'm very confused if you can help me

[01:55:41] [SPEAKER_05]: over great thank you guys thanks am i love the r ip in moriam sequence that's hilarious um

[01:55:49] [SPEAKER_05]: i uh morgoth torturing sauron is not in the lore it does say that he is a disciple but that

[01:55:58] [SPEAKER_05]: doesn't mean it didn't happen because as we talked about the lures and always reliable yes and also

[01:56:05] [SPEAKER_07]: there there is a reference to uh this situation between morgoth and sauron as it is in the lore

[01:56:14] [SPEAKER_07]: when sauron says um morgoth wanted to destroy it and i wanted to perfect it and that is very much

[01:56:24] [SPEAKER_07]: the case morgoth was a destroyer he he did wanted destroy everything wanted destroy middle earth

[01:56:32] [SPEAKER_07]: and sauron wanted to run things uh he he wanted to make the middle earth cranes run time

[01:56:42] [SPEAKER_07]: thank you called him a fascist earlier penny and i think that's that's very accurate

[01:56:46] [SPEAKER_07]: he wanted to be in control so there was a difference in approach between them there was a

[01:56:52] [SPEAKER_07]: disagreement between them if you really wanted to stretch you could say sauron's desires being

[01:57:00] [SPEAKER_07]: thwarted by morgoth's desire to destroy was a form of torture although what he says makes it sound

[01:57:07] [SPEAKER_07]: like it was actual physical torture although i don't quite know how you physically torture

[01:57:13] [SPEAKER_07]: of being that is spirit i guess you and if you're incarnated as he is as anatar then

[01:57:23] [SPEAKER_07]: he could be physically tortured but yeah it's not yeah it's not clear morgoth's torturing

[01:57:30] [SPEAKER_05]: sauron is not in the lore i mean morgoth is a god and who knows what methods

[01:57:40] [SPEAKER_05]: a god might have to inflict pain on any being whether it be spiritual or corporeal it's

[01:57:49] [SPEAKER_05]: i mean we're talking about gods once you get into the realm of gods it's like i don't know what they do

[01:57:53] [SPEAKER_07]: yeah the valar are god-like beings and the mya are it kind of like archangels

[01:58:02] [SPEAKER_07]: in christian theology yeah what was the second question oh i don't remember this

[01:58:11] [SPEAKER_07]: second question because i figured something that we answered in the podcast

[01:58:16] [SPEAKER_05]: i think it is if it's not sam let me know and and we'll put it in next week's podcast

[01:58:23] [SPEAKER_05]: i'm sorry i should have written it down while you were while your voicemail was playing but i did not

[01:58:29] [SPEAKER_05]: i'm not perfect for which you will be tortured yes yes i deserve it i've brought it on myself

[01:58:38] [SPEAKER_05]: you've brought it on yourself and i'm the author of my own torment actually that's pretty true

[01:58:55] [SPEAKER_05]: if you want to write in or leave us a message and join the conversation you can find all

[01:59:00] [SPEAKER_05]: our contact information at podcastica and we also put it in the show notes for every episode so

[01:59:05] [SPEAKER_05]: you have to do as like scroll down on your podcast player and the information is right there

[01:59:10] [SPEAKER_07]: while you're at podcastica.com check out some of our other shows

[01:59:16] [SPEAKER_05]: yeah so i also podcast about the new marvel show agatha all along it's a little bit lighter

[01:59:25] [SPEAKER_05]: and uh silly er then rings of power but it is also about the temptations of power and evil

[01:59:34] [SPEAKER_05]: and human greed so there are some similar themes yes and i have watched the first

[01:59:43] [SPEAKER_07]: only the first episode so far and listen to your podcast and the podcast was super helpful

[01:59:49] [SPEAKER_07]: because the marvel universe is probably the one that i know the least about and pay the least

[01:59:56] [SPEAKER_07]: attention to so the things that you've filled in really help me understand and appreciate

[02:00:03] [SPEAKER_07]: that first episode better and i have to admit i felt really dumb after you pointed it out but i

[02:00:10] [SPEAKER_07]: didn't realize the show that the beginning of the episode was oh was a fake was a yeah so i was

[02:00:20] [SPEAKER_07]: as soon as you said then i said of course i was but it made me you know think back on it

[02:00:25] [SPEAKER_07]: differently so i really appreciated that podcast episode and i will continue to listen to the

[02:00:33] [SPEAKER_05]: i'm so excited that you're listening also uh this week season three of from

[02:00:39] [SPEAKER_05]: premier and the what is from podcast is going strong they had a special guest on their first

[02:00:46] [SPEAKER_05]: episode and it was somebody really critical to the first episode so i suggest listening to that

[02:00:53] [SPEAKER_07]: and that's strange right about the one is from podcast is that they get cast members on all the

[02:00:59] [SPEAKER_05]: it's great yeah it's really it's really fantastic um the strange indeed podcast is starting

[02:01:05] [SPEAKER_05]: their coverage of great British bake-off so if all this gloom and doom and evil and quest for power

[02:01:12] [SPEAKER_05]: has got you a little down maybe people talking about icing and flower will make you feel better

[02:01:20] [SPEAKER_05]: and of course the Darrell Dixon spin off of the walking dead comes back this weekend

[02:01:27] [SPEAKER_05]: and our own the cast of us will be following that and uh podcasting about that

[02:01:33] [SPEAKER_05]: and i'm a huge walking dead fan i wouldn't miss it for the world i'm very excited about it

[02:01:38] [SPEAKER_07]: i've been uh been listening to the rewatch podcast and i got behind and i just caught up in time

[02:01:46] [SPEAKER_07]: for the rewatch hiatus for the uh the walking dead colon darindic Darrell Dixon colon the

[02:01:57] [SPEAKER_05]: colon we have more titles we're gonna add on to the it's two-minute it's too long of a title

[02:02:02] [SPEAKER_05]: a little bit like this show which is like a lot of the rings the rings of power it's just too many

[02:02:07] [SPEAKER_05]: words it's too many words hey everybody if you're in the u.s check your voter registration make sure

[02:02:15] [SPEAKER_05]: your register to vote go to vote dot org that's a nonpartisan site their entire purpose

[02:02:21] [SPEAKER_05]: is helping you figure out if you are registered and how to register if you're not registered

[02:02:27] [SPEAKER_05]: please vote voting matters don't throw away your vote please participate in our democracy

[02:02:33] [SPEAKER_05]: if you're outside the u.s i assume you should vote in your country as well i just don't

[02:02:40] [SPEAKER_05]: have the information about that yes definitely the is important

[02:02:46] [SPEAKER_05]: without an anlan here this week we're not gonna have a glad reels mirror section so that is our show

[02:02:52] [SPEAKER_05]: next week though season two finale expect big big yes thanks for listening everyone

[02:03:04] [SPEAKER_05]: and a huge thank you to you Renny for joining me this week when i am short one anlan

[02:03:08] [SPEAKER_05]: it's been hard continuing on without her but as we know true creation requires sacrifice