24: “Shadows and Flame” (S2E8)

[00:00:00] Hmm?

[00:00:01] Ah!

[00:00:03] Oh...

[00:00:05] Ah...

[00:00:05] Ah...

[00:00:05] There are ways of keeping you alive.

[00:00:09] Melon, must I show you my mastery of that craft as well?

[00:00:17] Craft?

[00:00:21] Your only craft is treachery.

[00:00:24] So pure it shall betray the very hand that forges it.

[00:00:28] Your words... are empty.

[00:00:33] No...

[00:00:33] No, hear me.

[00:00:35] Hear me!

[00:00:39] Shadow of Morgoth!

[00:00:43] Hear the dying words of Celebrimbor!

[00:00:47] The Rings of Power shall destroy you.

[00:00:53] And in the end, I foresee one alone shall prove your utter ruin!

[00:01:03] I am their master.

[00:01:17] No...

[00:01:18] No...

[00:01:20] You are their prisoner.

[00:02:12] Greetings ring bearers, sword wielders, Alvin Smiths and Dark Lords.

[00:02:16] Welcome to our podcast, I'm Anwen.

[00:02:19] And I'm Penny.

[00:02:21] And this is The Cast of the Rings episode 24.

[00:02:25] This episode, we are going to cover the Rings of Power season 2 finale, episode 8, Shadows and Flame.

[00:02:34] I can't believe that it's come around already.

[00:02:37] The finale, the season's over!

[00:02:39] It went by very fast.

[00:02:41] I think because they dropped three at once at the beginning and we scrambled so much to get the season off the ground.

[00:02:51] Exactly.

[00:02:52] And then it was like, now we're halfway done!

[00:02:55] It just happened really quickly.

[00:02:56] Yeah.

[00:02:57] It was really only six weeks because it was so crunched in the middle.

[00:03:02] And especially this last bit, because we took a little bit of a break to get our thoughts together.

[00:03:06] It's kind of, it feels like forever since we're podcasters.

[00:03:10] And we had an episode without each other.

[00:03:13] So yeah, it's all come together now for the finale and it's very exciting to be here.

[00:03:17] Yeah, we haven't podcasted together since episode five.

[00:03:21] Yeah, so much has happened.

[00:03:23] It's wild.

[00:03:26] Absolutely.

[00:03:27] What did you think of the episode overall?

[00:03:28] I thought it was really dense.

[00:03:36] Like a lot happened, not dense in a bad way, but like that there was a lot going on.

[00:03:42] I think they did a good job of wrapping up some of the smaller, less interesting storylines and setting up season three.

[00:03:51] But I mean, the sort of best parts were all the Sauron parts and they were amazing.

[00:03:58] Just amazing.

[00:03:59] How about you?

[00:04:01] Yeah.

[00:04:01] Yeah, I loved it.

[00:04:03] I had that sense after watching it the first time of just like I'd been hit by a train.

[00:04:10] Like what just happened?

[00:04:12] So much happened that it was really hard to, and my biggest sense was of relief.

[00:04:17] Like, oh great, we don't have to podcast on this in two days from now because it's just so intense and so much.

[00:04:23] So I'm really glad that we've had the space to be able to get our thoughts together.

[00:04:27] But overall, I was very, very impressed with what they managed to fit in within the episode.

[00:04:33] There are some parts I think that felt a bit rushed that maybe it would have been great to have one more episode.

[00:04:38] I think they could have taken a little bit more time, but in general, it was very skillful what they did manage to cover in the time that we had.

[00:04:46] And I kind of knew that we were in good hands within about the first five minutes when they pretty much sewed up the Dwarven storyline and got that done.

[00:04:55] And I was like, okay, cool. They know what they're doing now. They've found their stride.

[00:04:59] And the main things that I was excited to and hoping to see all happen.

[00:05:04] So I've got a little list here and we'll cover all of them.

[00:05:07] But Adar's Redemption, Revendale, Sauron and Galadriel fighting, the Balrog, Calabrim Banner, which we'll go into, Gandalf and Narsil.

[00:05:18] Like all of these things were like, yes, so satisfying. They did it.

[00:05:21] And I was really super surprised.

[00:05:23] The only thing that I found really surprising actually was, and we'll talk about this too, but Kemin showing up at Palagi, I was like, what?

[00:05:32] That was quite a big shock for me.

[00:05:34] But everything else was kind of as I expected, but more.

[00:05:37] So I was really happy with that. I was thrilled with it overall.

[00:05:40] Yeah. Awesome.

[00:05:44] Well, I think we need to just settle in because we're going to be here for a while.

[00:05:48] This is going to be a bumper episode and so much to talk about.

[00:05:52] Where do you want to start, Penny?

[00:05:54] Well, let's start with King Durran and the Balrog.

[00:05:58] I thought that scene was really powerful, even though it was quite short.

[00:06:04] That it reminded me a lot of an addiction story.

[00:06:08] And we've talked about the ring as addiction metaphor.

[00:06:13] When, you know, first he breaks through the rock and he's like, look, my son, look at all of our wealth.

[00:06:18] You know, he's all excited about it.

[00:06:20] And then the cinematography was amazing how the light of the fire slowly washes over their faces.

[00:06:26] And then you see them see, I assume the Balrog, but we don't see it yet.

[00:06:32] And then the change on the king's face.

[00:06:36] I was like, I guess he literally hit rock bottom.

[00:06:41] Like, you know, they say that in addiction, like you have to hit rock bottom before you'll get sober.

[00:06:46] And he sobered up fast.

[00:06:48] He's like, whoa, that's a that's a big fiery monster.

[00:06:52] And I OK, I'm taking off the ring and you're king now.

[00:06:56] I'm going to jump off this cliff in a very like.

[00:07:00] I mean, if you're going to go out, go out in complete glory like that, like leaping into the Balrog's face with an axe was pretty cool.

[00:07:10] And it looked cool. And this, you know, the last couple of sentences he says to his son, you know, it wasn't me letting you lift my hand.

[00:07:22] It was you getting stronger was was beautiful because these two have had a very contentious relationship and and they knock heads a lot.

[00:07:31] And and because it's because they're very similar.

[00:07:34] And, you know, his last words to his son were letting his son know, like, I see you and I know that you're strong and you're going to be a good king.

[00:07:44] And I've always known it.

[00:07:45] And, you know, we might fight.

[00:07:49] And I might be a, you know, tough old guy, but like, I love you.

[00:07:53] My son, King Durin calls him King Durin and then leaps into the thing.

[00:07:57] I thought it was really moving and beautiful, but I also thought it was really just kind of funny.

[00:08:01] I was like, that's like literal rock bottom.

[00:08:03] He got to the bottom of the mountain.

[00:08:05] There's rocks there.

[00:08:06] Rock bottom.

[00:08:07] Yeah.

[00:08:08] Yeah.

[00:08:08] And also the Balrog as a representation or an emblem of the addiction.

[00:08:14] Like this is the monster within.

[00:08:17] It's literally the monster deep down within that, you know, can cause havoc to your life type thing.

[00:08:22] So, yeah, beautifully symbolic.

[00:08:25] When when Prince Durin finds Deesa and Deesa says it's the ring that has him and then they kissed.

[00:08:31] I was like, oh, no, they've kissed.

[00:08:33] And is that a goodbye?

[00:08:35] Is one of them going to going to not make it?

[00:08:37] But I thought it was beautifully done where she was sort of there because I, you know,

[00:08:41] we've both loved Deesa and Durin's relationship all the way through.

[00:08:44] And so I think it's really nice that she was there with him when that happened, but also

[00:08:49] slightly background.

[00:08:50] So she was there.

[00:08:51] She was backing him up, but she wasn't directly involved with what was happening.

[00:08:54] I think it was important that it had to be between Durin and his father.

[00:08:56] Yeah, I agree.

[00:08:57] At the end there.

[00:08:59] I loved how when he breaks through and you look down and you see that whole mine full

[00:09:04] of that whole cavern full of me thrill.

[00:09:06] It was very similar to the part in the Fellowship of the Ring when they're going through the

[00:09:10] mines of Moria and they're going along that little kind of ledge and they look down and

[00:09:14] they see this whole cavern.

[00:09:16] Visually, it was almost identical.

[00:09:18] And I loved that because it's really recognizable to us.

[00:09:20] That's the part that was sealed up.

[00:09:22] And then, you know, later on gets opened again and all that sort of stuff.

[00:09:25] It was really cool.

[00:09:26] It tied everything in nicely.

[00:09:28] And the Balrog looked pretty much identical to the Peter Jackson version as well.

[00:09:33] So I think that's what everyone was wanting to see.

[00:09:35] And with the whip of fire as well, coming and grabbing Durin's ankle was incredible.

[00:09:41] I saw a meme floating around the internet that said,

[00:09:45] oh, I'm so glad they cast the same actor as the Balrog from Fellowship.

[00:09:50] I am.

[00:09:51] That's great.

[00:09:52] I love that.

[00:09:53] Because it does look very similar, even though the CGI has clearly improved.

[00:09:57] You know, in the last 20 years.

[00:10:00] But they kept the look and feel very close.

[00:10:05] And I also loved that it's very neatly kind of and literally sealed back up.

[00:10:12] So a lot of the criticisms that people were having in anticipation of the Balrog showing up were,

[00:10:18] it's way too early.

[00:10:19] It's not supposed to show up until the Third Age and that's when Moria falls and all that sort of stuff.

[00:10:24] This is really cool because we got to see it, but it looks like it's kind of sealed back up.

[00:10:29] So it still stays within the kind of canon of the story that, yay, we got to see the Balrog,

[00:10:34] but it's actually, I think Khazad-Dum's going to be fine for a bit.

[00:10:37] Was that the impression that you got?

[00:10:38] Yeah, I think so too.

[00:10:39] I think now we're going to deal with, you know, internal dwarf politics because there are people apparently who don't support Durin for to become king.

[00:10:52] They think, you know, there were problems with his father towards the end there, so they think he wasn't the preferred heir.

[00:10:57] And there's always, at least my readings of history and also things like Game of Thrones, you know, when a king dies,

[00:11:08] that's a time when people are going to try to get power and move up in the world.

[00:11:13] And there's always unrest around succession of power.

[00:11:16] So that's going to be interesting next season to see who are these other people.

[00:11:22] I love the way they sewed that up too, because it does sort of sow the seeds for the next season,

[00:11:28] but it felt like a bit of a completion for the story for now, but it's not, well, this is all over.

[00:11:33] We still know there's going to be drama and excitement happening for the dwarves moving forward.

[00:11:37] So that was really good.

[00:11:39] I really enjoyed that too.

[00:11:41] It was awesome.

[00:11:42] I thought, you know, later the dwarves show up to Eregion, you know, after they said they would be there,

[00:11:48] but they do get there eventually and help the elves.

[00:11:52] I was just saying like, you know, if you're late somewhere, like the best excuse in the world has to be,

[00:11:58] oh, I had to deal with a balrog first.

[00:12:00] Like, no one's going to question you and be like, oh, you should have done that faster.

[00:12:05] Like, no, that's all right.

[00:12:07] Balrog, you get a pass.

[00:12:09] And Navi's like, oh, Duren's in mourning.

[00:12:11] It's like, he doesn't mention the balrog.

[00:12:15] Yeah.

[00:12:15] I guess his dad dying is the biggest thing, but yeah, it was very well done.

[00:12:20] And I came to the titles and I really enjoyed watching the titles previously, but because they really haven't changed a lot,

[00:12:28] I don't think I generally skip them.

[00:12:30] But I needed the titles because I sat there going, that was one of the most intense cold opens I have ever seen.

[00:12:37] Yeah.

[00:12:37] And I actually needed the titles to recover.

[00:12:39] I was sitting there just kind of fanning myself and going, oh my God, that was incredible.

[00:12:43] And I needed those couple of minutes of the titles to kind of reset and get to the next scene.

[00:12:48] So it was very well timed and very well placed.

[00:12:51] And as I said before, it made me go, okay, they've got this.

[00:12:54] I think we're going to get a good coverage of everything.

[00:12:58] And in general, that's a good indication for me of this season as a whole that I really think the showrunners have found their stride.

[00:13:05] So the first season was really trying to find their feet and establish so many situations and characters and civilizations.

[00:13:12] And now they've just really got the pacing so much better.

[00:13:15] And throughout the season, I think it's improved too up to this point where I think it was very, very well done.

[00:13:21] Everyone I've talked to who are fans of the show and have been watching all agree.

[00:13:26] They're like season one was good, but it suffered under the weight of the world building.

[00:13:31] It was a little clumpy and slow.

[00:13:36] This season is just like full speed ahead.

[00:13:41] And it's been like I liked first season, but season two is so good.

[00:13:46] Just so good.

[00:13:47] Yeah.

[00:13:48] I've also heard of quite a few people who either didn't watch the whole first season or fell off partway through or watched it and didn't like it and weren't going to watch the second season.

[00:13:58] And then on recommendation from other people have gone back in and gone, yes, I see what you're saying.

[00:14:03] Definitely.

[00:14:04] Yeah.

[00:14:04] Season two has really kicked it up, which just makes me so excited for the next three seasons.

[00:14:08] If we do get to see them, you know, that they're just going to keep getting better and better.

[00:14:13] And I'm super excited for it.

[00:14:15] Me too.

[00:14:16] Even though we have to wait a really long time.

[00:14:20] I know.

[00:14:21] At least two years, I assume.

[00:14:23] Exactly.

[00:14:26] A lot of my notes are kind of in order of the episode because I just had so much to write down and think about.

[00:14:34] But it might be a good idea to go right to where we go next in the episode, which is over into the east and talk about what's happening there.

[00:14:43] Yeah.

[00:14:43] So we have the dark wizard asking the stranger to join him.

[00:14:49] And the stranger says, well, what does that kind of mean?

[00:14:54] And then you get this whole scene where he's basically holding Nori and Poppy at knife point and pretending like he's just not that threatening.

[00:15:06] But then he kind of is.

[00:15:07] And I quite liked that the dark wizard was a bit ambiguous in this scene.

[00:15:11] We kind of weren't sure.

[00:15:12] Is he a good guy?

[00:15:13] Is he a bad guy?

[00:15:15] Yeah.

[00:15:16] And yeah, I just I found it really interesting that they used old friend a couple of times because that's very reminiscent of Saruman.

[00:15:26] And we've talked before about maybe potentially as Saruman.

[00:15:28] And I think we can talk a little bit about it here and not just in the spoiler section because lots of people are speculating.

[00:15:34] Now that we know it's Gandalf and Gandalf and Saruman kind of go together.

[00:15:38] Yeah.

[00:15:38] A lot of people are wondering if it's him.

[00:15:40] And the criticism of that, obviously, is that Saruman was good to start with right through until, you know, partway through the Third Age when he kind of came under Sauron's spell.

[00:15:50] So there's a lot of chit chat around whether he's an earlier version of Saruman and then is he going to die?

[00:15:56] And then is he going to come back and be the good version or is he not Saruman at all?

[00:16:00] But the fact that they used old friend twice was very interesting to me because that's exactly what Saruman calls Gandalf.

[00:16:08] And the physical markers are still very Saruman.

[00:16:13] And yes, it's completely possible that we don't really know what the blue wizards are supposed to look like.

[00:16:19] So they could look like that.

[00:16:21] I mean, it's kind of a standard wizard look.

[00:16:23] But his staff looks like Saruman's staff to me.

[00:16:27] It's got a similar design.

[00:16:30] And the old friend thing, I don't know.

[00:16:34] I thought the scene between the two of them was interesting.

[00:16:38] The dark wizard keeps changing the subject.

[00:16:42] The stranger keeps sort of trying to pin him down and be like, but are you trying to ally with Sauron?

[00:16:48] And he's like, oh, you and I should ally.

[00:16:50] And he just keeps not answering the stranger's questions.

[00:16:55] And then finally, he sort of says, what frustrates me, and it happens in modern politics all the time, is, well, if Sauron wins, there's going to be so much suffering.

[00:17:07] So I'm basically the lesser of two evils.

[00:17:11] You should ally with me.

[00:17:12] And at least we'll be better than if Sauron wins.

[00:17:16] And it's like, but you're still like a bad guy.

[00:17:20] You aren't good.

[00:17:23] And the stranger clearly wants to be wholly good.

[00:17:29] He's not interested in power.

[00:17:31] That's why he passed the test.

[00:17:32] It's because he only wants power as a tool, not for its own sake.

[00:17:38] Yeah.

[00:17:39] But he also says something about we would be his successors or we would take over and be better than him or something like that.

[00:17:48] Which sounded dark to me, like, hang on, are you saying that you would, you know, that you would be taking over as the evil?

[00:17:58] I think from his perspective, it's not good evil.

[00:18:02] It's in charge, not in charge.

[00:18:04] And he's like, we would be in charge.

[00:18:06] And wouldn't that be better than Sauron?

[00:18:08] Yeah.

[00:18:09] But it's like, maybe.

[00:18:10] But like, we've already seen that you practice blood magic and you're okay with killing innocent hardfoots.

[00:18:18] And you did something to these nomadic people that they have to wear these metal masks.

[00:18:23] We don't know what, but that was you.

[00:18:26] Like, you're not a nice person.

[00:18:28] We don't want you in charge either.

[00:18:30] And he has no problem with trashing their entire home.

[00:18:33] Yeah.

[00:18:34] That's the other thing.

[00:18:35] One of the things that I feel has not been, like, explained the best is why is, so I understand Galadriel thinking that Sauron's a threat.

[00:18:48] Because it's been thousands of years.

[00:18:50] She's been looking for him ever since he kind of disappeared.

[00:18:53] Obviously, now we've got the in-story, back-story of him being slimed for a couple of thousand years.

[00:18:59] But for these other people, especially, I mean, we don't know the age of these.

[00:19:04] We don't really know how long the Dark Wizards have been there.

[00:19:08] We don't actually know how long the Mystics have been around or these masked people.

[00:19:14] We know that the lifespan of the Harfoots and the Stores is not long, you know, maybe around 100 years.

[00:19:23] Why is this whole idea that Sauron is such a threat there?

[00:19:26] There.

[00:19:27] Because in the story, he's really only been back in his non-slime form for maybe some months.

[00:19:37] Yeah.

[00:19:38] And no one knows that he's back yet.

[00:19:40] No one knows until, you know, he's showing his face in Eregion and people realize that Anatar is Sauron and stuff.

[00:19:46] But in this other area, why is everyone so stressed out about Sauron when he hasn't been around for several thousand years?

[00:19:51] Did you kind of feel like that was explained or did you get an idea of that?

[00:19:55] I think Tom Bombadil clearly knows what's up, right?

[00:20:00] And he has powers we don't understand.

[00:20:02] So he knows that Sauron is a threat and is coming.

[00:20:05] I assume the dark wizard with his powers knows that Sauron is a threat and that it's a future threat, right?

[00:20:16] That it's like he knows he's not there right now.

[00:20:18] But he's like, that's coming.

[00:20:20] And who knows?

[00:20:21] Maybe he has a volunteer.

[00:20:23] Maybe, you know, wizards have ways of knowing things.

[00:20:26] Or maybe when he was meeting with Tom Bombadil, Bombadil was like, it's your job to oppose Sauron the same way he said it to the stranger.

[00:20:34] And and so he knows it.

[00:20:37] And maybe he's spreading fear.

[00:20:39] Right.

[00:20:39] Maybe he's told all these nomads and mystics and everyone like I'm I was sent from the Valar to oppose Sauron.

[00:20:49] And you all have to help me oppose Sauron.

[00:20:52] So you have to do what I say, you know?

[00:20:55] Yeah.

[00:20:55] And that sort of shows the opposite of what we see from Gandalf, because, yes, we know that the the wizards, the Astaria, sent by the Valar to assist against Sauron.

[00:21:04] That's their job.

[00:21:06] But what they're supposed to do is they're supposed to do that in a subtle way.

[00:21:09] They're supposed to come in and basically rally the peoples of Middle Earth to fight this evil, but not have a really strong individual part in it themselves.

[00:21:19] And they're supposed to not really say who they are as well.

[00:21:21] They're not supposed to go around going, I am an emissary of the Valar.

[00:21:25] They're supposed to just be these wise kind of beings that come in and help to influence in a positive way.

[00:21:30] And so it's almost like the Dark Wizard is if he's one of the, you know, Astarri, he's kind of missing the brief from the beginning in terms of how he's supposed to influence these these peoples, which is which is really interesting.

[00:21:45] And again, if he's if he's Saruman, I just don't see how that fits.

[00:21:48] Yeah.

[00:21:49] But in saying that, I, you know, there's been a few things where I've gone, oh, how is that going to work?

[00:21:55] And then it did work.

[00:21:56] You know, the very beginning, I was like, I don't want this to be Gandalf.

[00:21:58] It's wrong.

[00:21:59] They've made it work.

[00:22:00] They've made it work really well.

[00:22:01] So I trust them to, you know, show us.

[00:22:04] And I just think there's been so many mystery boxes all the way through.

[00:22:07] They have to leave the season with having at least one mystery to go.

[00:22:10] Who's this guy?

[00:22:12] They've finally solved the two seasons worth of Is It Gandalf and now we have to play Is It Saruman for a bit.

[00:22:17] Yeah, seriously.

[00:22:19] I have to admit this wasn't my favorite part of the finale.

[00:22:23] I was like, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:22:24] We kind of all predicted that this is exactly how this would go.

[00:22:27] We even predicted that Gandalf would find his staff from that tree that was, you know, special to the stores.

[00:22:34] So it all sort of went the way we thought it was going to go more or less.

[00:22:39] So I just didn't find it to be that interesting.

[00:22:45] I was like, yeah, it's Gandalf.

[00:22:46] We knew that already.

[00:22:48] Thank you.

[00:22:49] Yeah.

[00:22:50] I'm glad it's over.

[00:22:51] Yeah, I found it satisfying to see.

[00:22:54] But I also, because everything else was so exciting, I did find it a little bit distracting to go back there.

[00:23:01] Yeah.

[00:23:02] Did you notice that when Nori was sitting there packing up all of the stuff and doing a bit of sorting and tidying,

[00:23:11] she had Gandalf's staff next to her and she just shoved it off the shelf onto the ground?

[00:23:15] Yeah.

[00:23:16] I noticed that on like my third viewing and I went, hey, that's the staff.

[00:23:20] Which, you know, to her, it's just a broken piece of wood.

[00:23:23] Yeah, it was great.

[00:23:25] It was really cool.

[00:23:26] This is completely not relevant to the story, but I couldn't help noticing that Gandalf's hair looked fire,

[00:23:33] like really looked good.

[00:23:35] And you're a curly haired person.

[00:23:36] I'm a curly haired person.

[00:23:37] I was like, I want to know what products he's using that is keeping his hair like in those perfect,

[00:23:44] like, oh, I just woke up like this waves.

[00:23:48] Especially in the desert.

[00:23:50] Yeah.

[00:23:50] I was like, how is he doing that?

[00:23:51] He looks amazing.

[00:23:52] Also Farazon.

[00:23:53] Farazon has amazing, beautiful waves as well.

[00:23:57] I was like, and he's got those white streaks.

[00:23:59] Farazon's hair is also really on point.

[00:24:01] That's a lot of good hair.

[00:24:03] Yeah.

[00:24:04] Even, even Annatar wearing the Halbrand costume.

[00:24:07] Yeah.

[00:24:07] I think they curled his hair up a little bit there.

[00:24:09] It was less kind of straggly, scruffy Aragorn and more kind of Jon Snow-like.

[00:24:14] Yeah.

[00:24:14] He looked good.

[00:24:15] When he, when he showed up as, as Halbrand, I was like, that's like clean, pretty Halbrand.

[00:24:20] It's not exactly the Halbrand she remembers.

[00:24:23] It's like magical, better looking Halbrand.

[00:24:26] So well done.

[00:24:28] Beautiful.

[00:24:29] Hair tangent.

[00:24:31] All right.

[00:24:32] I think we'll probably, we'll probably pop back into the east towards the end when we're

[00:24:36] talking about how the episode wrapped up, but that's kind of it for now.

[00:24:40] I think it was good to just pop back there and see what was happening and, and then we

[00:24:45] can get back into some more action.

[00:24:47] Shall we go over to Numenor next?

[00:24:49] Yeah.

[00:24:49] I think that's a great place to go.

[00:24:52] Awesome.

[00:24:54] Yeah.

[00:24:55] So, so Farazon's there and he's gathering the faithful and, you know, they're basically

[00:25:01] playing the absolute politician game of, of, of spinning what happened.

[00:25:06] So in the last few episodes, we saw that Mariel had to undergo the sea trial and they were

[00:25:12] expecting it was a really good way to just get rid of her.

[00:25:14] But now when that happened, it's clear that the Valar do support her.

[00:25:18] So they had to spin that.

[00:25:20] And his way of spinning it was, they say that Mariel bewitched the sea and that the way

[00:25:25] that she was able to do that is because she has this, this ally with cunning powers.

[00:25:29] So they're pretty much saying to everybody that she's got Sauron on side and that's why

[00:25:34] she's able to, to influence the Valar, which I thought was very clever and horrible.

[00:25:39] And technically true because she was allied with Halbrand, not knowing that he was Sauron.

[00:25:46] So it's not exactly a lie.

[00:25:49] It's just a misrepresentation of the situation.

[00:25:53] Yeah.

[00:25:54] And also I'm like, where is your proof?

[00:25:57] What are you going to tell everyone you looked in the Palantir?

[00:26:00] Because that was part of your argument against Mariel to begin with was the Palantir.

[00:26:06] So at the end they show her sort of standing trial.

[00:26:11] And I'm like, how is he going to, what's his evidence?

[00:26:15] Like, how is he going to back up his claims?

[00:26:19] I just think he, he can say what he wants now because he's rounded up the faithful.

[00:26:23] He's basically said that if you're faithful to the Valar and to the old ways that you are

[00:26:29] now a traitor and he's got everybody locked up.

[00:26:32] So I think he can kind of do what he likes.

[00:26:34] And even if there are people in the general population who don't agree with it, they're

[00:26:37] going to be afraid of being locked up too.

[00:26:39] So it's absolutely classic kind of tyrannical thing to do.

[00:26:43] Um, and yeah, we, we, we see the leaves of the trees are falling so we can see that the

[00:26:50] Valar are, you know, uh, you know, not, not supporting what's happening.

[00:26:55] Um, I quite liked Earyan starting to redeem herself.

[00:26:59] I was finding her so irritating and I actually loved seeing her use some of that power that

[00:27:06] she had to, to help Elindiel.

[00:27:09] So, you know, she, she, she was told to round up the faithful and she didn't know why.

[00:27:14] And then when she sees what's happening, she's like, oh no, I'm out of here.

[00:27:17] And she backs out the door and you can see Farazan give, give her that kind of look under

[00:27:21] his eyebrows as she leaves.

[00:27:24] And then she heads out.

[00:27:25] And then when they're about to find Elindiel, she basically uses her authority to say, move

[00:27:31] along, which I thought was really, really cool.

[00:27:33] Oh, it was fantastic.

[00:27:34] She was full snotty when she was like, shall I tell Farazan about your subordination?

[00:27:39] I was like, yeah, yeah.

[00:27:41] Use it girl.

[00:27:42] How dare you?

[00:27:43] Um, I did think, why is Elindiel now working in a bar?

[00:27:48] Was that what he, I couldn't really tell like where he was or what he was doing.

[00:27:51] It did look like he was wiping the table.

[00:27:54] Yeah.

[00:27:54] He was wiping tables in the pub.

[00:27:56] It's like, well, I suppose he's got to earn a living now.

[00:27:57] He's not the sea captain.

[00:27:59] But isn't he like a wealthy, doesn't he have like a home outside the city and, and wealth?

[00:28:05] Like I would have just, if I were him in that situation, I guess he doesn't want to leave

[00:28:09] the queen, but I would have been like, let's go to my country house.

[00:28:12] Like I, I wouldn't have stayed.

[00:28:13] There had to be a way for her to find him and then for him to, to, to run off.

[00:28:17] So I could, I could buy it.

[00:28:19] Yeah.

[00:28:20] That's all good.

[00:28:20] And then of course he goes off to, um, to convince Miriel to leave.

[00:28:25] Um, and, and she, that she refuses to leave.

[00:28:28] She's going to stay there and stay with her people.

[00:28:31] Captain goes down with the ship.

[00:28:34] Yeah.

[00:28:34] And then she gives him Narsil and it was, it was such a beautiful scene, but I kind of

[00:28:39] wanted it to be longer.

[00:28:40] It was so short and I love everything between these two, all the scenes that they've had

[00:28:43] together.

[00:28:43] I just think are captivating and they've got such amazing chemistry.

[00:28:46] I also wanted to know more about Narsil and I, I imagine you have some more to, to help

[00:28:52] us out, but she's like, it's called Narsil.

[00:28:55] And then he picks it up and he's so mimicked exactly Aragorn's movements when he got Narsil

[00:29:02] in Fellowship of the Ring.

[00:29:04] That had to be completely intentional.

[00:29:07] The camera work was similar.

[00:29:09] His motions were similar.

[00:29:10] The way he held the sword was similar.

[00:29:12] Um, but I was like, is this an, I don't know the background.

[00:29:17] Is Narsil an existing blade or did she have it made for him?

[00:29:21] Is it like, is there something special about it?

[00:29:25] Because I know what's special about it by the time we get to Lord of the Rings, but at

[00:29:29] this point, is it just a nice sword?

[00:29:31] Like what's the story?

[00:29:33] Yeah.

[00:29:34] Yeah.

[00:29:34] So we actually, um, see the sword in the background in season one.

[00:29:39] So there's the first part where you see her kind of walking through when she's looking towards

[00:29:42] the Palantir.

[00:29:43] There's a bunch of different kind of relics in the background and you could see Narsil

[00:29:47] very, very, um, clearly in the background there, but yeah, right in the back.

[00:29:51] Um, and they've obviously, uh, followed the design of the, um, of what we see in the Lord

[00:29:59] of the Rings when we, when we see the sword later and both of those designs are based on

[00:30:04] John Howe, who's one of the, um, one of the, the concept artists who's worked on both productions.

[00:30:09] So it's really cool that you see it looking the same.

[00:30:11] We know it's the same sword.

[00:30:13] And, uh, yeah, she doesn't, she doesn't really say much.

[00:30:16] She just says, this is Narsil.

[00:30:17] And you can tell that he knows that it's really special, which is, which is cool.

[00:30:22] And like you say, we get that same drawing of the sword in the same way that Aragorn does

[00:30:27] later.

[00:30:27] Um, so the sword itself, it was, um, it's very old.

[00:30:31] So it was, it was forged probably in the first age.

[00:30:34] It was forged by Telkar, who was a really famous dwarven smith.

[00:30:39] And he was probably top three smiths ever along with Thaenor and Calabrimbor.

[00:30:44] So he was this really, really famous renowned smith, um, who made this sword.

[00:30:49] And not, you don't really see anything, any mention of it or, or what happened with it,

[00:30:53] or it doesn't really come into the stories, um, during the second age until Elindiel gets

[00:30:57] it.

[00:30:58] So this is really the first kind of time that we see, we know that it's existed for a long

[00:31:01] time, but this is the first time that we see it in the story, um, when Elindiel gets it.

[00:31:06] Um, and Narsal is a Quenya name.

[00:31:09] It means red and white flame.

[00:31:11] And I think he says in this scene, the white flame, when he turns it over and he sort of

[00:31:15] sees that little sigil on the, on the scabbard.

[00:31:17] Um, and we do know from the books and movies that it is a very important sword later.

[00:31:22] I'm going to leave that for the Galadriel's mirror spoiler section, just because people

[00:31:25] might not want to know, but, um, yeah, we've got a little bit more on that, um, in case anyone

[00:31:29] is, um, very fresh and just wants to see what happens in this story.

[00:31:33] Um, but yeah, I think I would have liked, I think it got across the importance of it,

[00:31:39] but I just would have liked a little bit more time with these two and a little bit more

[00:31:44] in the scene.

[00:31:45] Um, I saw, I've seen a couple of memes about this actually.

[00:31:51] And one of them was, it was really funny.

[00:31:53] It was like, Hey, let's get out of here.

[00:31:55] No, I'm going to stay, but I would never leave you.

[00:31:58] Here's a sword.

[00:31:59] Ooh, shiny.

[00:32:00] Okay.

[00:32:00] Bye.

[00:32:04] She kind of distracts him and changes the subject.

[00:32:06] He goes, but how, why would you think that I would ever be so cowardly as to leave you?

[00:32:10] And she's like, here's a sword.

[00:32:11] Ooh.

[00:32:12] Yeah.

[00:32:12] She does say that it's a command that he leave, that he reclaim his lordship and his

[00:32:21] destiny.

[00:32:23] And I think making it a command is the only way she was going to get him to do it.

[00:32:28] Yes.

[00:32:28] He, he would only do it under those circumstances.

[00:32:31] And, and I do like that reminder for us all that he, he does have noble blood.

[00:32:36] He does come from a line of Kings.

[00:32:37] He's not just a sea captain.

[00:32:39] So it's nice to have that reminder now and to know that he's going to go off and do that.

[00:32:43] And it does keep more to the law that she's going to stay there, um, in the city and, you

[00:32:47] know, stuff will ensue later on.

[00:32:50] It makes me sad because I think that that was the last scene we're going to get with the

[00:32:54] two of them.

[00:32:55] Right.

[00:32:56] They're separated.

[00:32:56] Now their stories are going in different directions.

[00:32:58] And I loved them together.

[00:33:01] I thought they had a wonderful mutual respect, even though he was very deference to her because

[00:33:09] she was the queen.

[00:33:10] She was very appreciative of his integrity and his value and his faith.

[00:33:18] And I just, I loved them together.

[00:33:21] I mean, I'm not a big shipper, but I was like, kiss, kiss, kiss before you say goodbye.

[00:33:30] I loved them too.

[00:33:31] And I loved that.

[00:33:32] And we mentioned it in another episode.

[00:33:34] I loved that.

[00:33:36] I also wanted them to kiss, but I loved that they didn't.

[00:33:39] And I loved that little forehead touch that they had that just felt so much more intimate

[00:33:43] and powerful because I don't think it is just a romantic love.

[00:33:46] I think that they're so drawn to each other.

[00:33:48] They respect each other.

[00:33:49] There's kind of a noble, courtly kind of love there as well as the, as the, they kind of

[00:33:54] fancy each other type thing.

[00:33:55] And so, yeah, I don't, I don't feel that it is the last time we'll see them together.

[00:34:01] So he's headed off to the other side of the island.

[00:34:04] She's going to stay in the city, but there's still a lot more that has to happen in Numenor

[00:34:08] before, before the end of that storyline.

[00:34:11] So I think they're going to probably have another scene or two together.

[00:34:17] I don't know what that'll look like, but I feel, I feel like that's coming.

[00:34:20] I don't think Elendil's gone from the city and that's it.

[00:34:23] Okay, good.

[00:34:24] He did mention his son, Anarion, which is good.

[00:34:28] Cause I know a lot of fans are like, what about Anarion?

[00:34:31] Like they've been wanting to know.

[00:34:32] So he, he name dropped him.

[00:34:34] So we know that Anarion is in the West and that's where Elendil is headed.

[00:34:38] And then of course his escape is exactly the vision he had in the Palantir.

[00:34:43] And you see in the background, like all this smoke rising from the city.

[00:34:49] And when we saw the soldiers running around, like rounding up the faithful,

[00:34:54] there wasn't fire involved.

[00:34:56] So I'm like, what is causing that smoke?

[00:34:58] Is there the breakout of civil war?

[00:35:00] Are people resisting?

[00:35:01] Like what's happening in Numenor in the background?

[00:35:07] We, we don't know.

[00:35:08] Maybe we'll find out in season three.

[00:35:10] Yeah.

[00:35:11] It wasn't, it wasn't that clear, but it was super satisfying to see his vision come true.

[00:35:15] And that was him leaving the city.

[00:35:17] I thought that was very well done.

[00:35:19] That was really cool.

[00:35:21] All right.

[00:35:22] I think that's probably about it for Numenor.

[00:35:25] Yeah.

[00:35:26] It was just enough to, to finish up the storyline and set the table for season three.

[00:35:31] It was like the perfect amount of that story for this finale.

[00:35:34] Yeah, exactly.

[00:35:35] Just like with the dwarves, it was like, that's what we wanted to see.

[00:35:38] And let's move on to the good stuff.

[00:35:42] Yeah.

[00:35:42] I mean, it was good, but also the even more exciting stuff.

[00:35:45] What do you want to talk about next?

[00:35:47] Yeah.

[00:35:48] Let's just deal with Pilar Gear and, and what happened there and get that out of the way.

[00:35:54] Cause I was like, I don't care about these stories at all.

[00:35:58] I don't care about Estrid.

[00:35:59] I have no investment in the Isildur Estrid romance.

[00:36:02] I just don't care.

[00:36:03] I care about Theo and his story.

[00:36:06] And, um, I continue to just hate Kemen.

[00:36:11] Uh, I thought it was so interesting that when Isildur walks up and is like, is that Kemen?

[00:36:16] Kemen, that Kemen says, your sister will be so pleased to hear that we found you.

[00:36:21] I'm like, you didn't find him.

[00:36:23] Like, what are you talking about?

[00:36:24] You didn't find him.

[00:36:25] You just were, he like, he came up to you.

[00:36:28] But then they have a little like Nepo baby face off, right?

[00:36:32] Where they're like, my dad's is, no, my dad is the king now.

[00:36:36] And it's just like, it was such an icky little face off.

[00:36:39] But between the two of them, even though I like Isildur, I didn't really enjoy him being

[00:36:43] like, but my dad is the captain to the queen.

[00:36:46] And then Kemen threatens to kill the horse.

[00:36:49] And I was like, come on, man.

[00:36:51] I already hated you.

[00:36:52] Like, don't threaten the horse.

[00:36:55] He's doing such an amazing job.

[00:36:57] I just love that actor.

[00:36:58] He's so good.

[00:36:59] And like, from the beginning, you know, when we first saw him and he was so nicey-picey

[00:37:04] and he was, you know, like trying to flirt with the Yarian and it was, you know, trying to

[00:37:09] get respect from his dad.

[00:37:10] And it was like, oh, this poor little guy.

[00:37:12] And now he's just like, I just think that he's doing such a phenomenal job, really portraying

[00:37:18] this absolutely hateful character.

[00:37:21] And just the face acting that he's doing, you know, when he stands there and he sees Isildur

[00:37:26] and the reaction and the myriad of emotions that are crossing his face, he hasn't learned to control

[00:37:33] that yet as a character, you know.

[00:37:36] The actor's doing an amazing job of showing that.

[00:37:38] Right.

[00:37:39] He doesn't have Farazan's diplomacy.

[00:37:41] Farazan is so cagey.

[00:37:44] And Kemen is right on the surface.

[00:37:46] Exactly.

[00:37:47] And Farazan has learned to wait and watch.

[00:37:50] So very many scenes that you see with Farazan, he is just sitting and watching and letting

[00:37:55] stuff happen and not showing anything on his face.

[00:37:57] He's got a really good poke face.

[00:37:59] But Kemen is just letting everything show.

[00:38:01] And his, you know, he gets off the ship and he's all cocky and he's all like, I don't

[00:38:06] care who you and your mother are kind of thing to Theo.

[00:38:09] But then when he sees Isildur, he's like, oh my God, what am I going to do with this information?

[00:38:13] Oh, wait, hang on.

[00:38:14] I'm annoyed, but I have to pretend that I'm pleased to see him.

[00:38:17] And all this happens within a split second, which is really beautiful.

[00:38:21] And I noticed actually for the first, I didn't notice the first couple of times, he's wearing

[00:38:25] a sling.

[00:38:26] Yeah, his arm is hard.

[00:38:27] Yeah.

[00:38:28] Yeah.

[00:38:28] He's got a belt sling.

[00:38:29] And some people were saying, how can you have your shoulder dislocated and have no repercussions?

[00:38:34] So I really liked that little touch.

[00:38:35] But yeah, it was really cool to see that scene between the two of them.

[00:38:39] And I feel the same with you about Isildur and Estrid.

[00:38:44] I'm not too bothered by whether they're together or not together.

[00:38:48] But I did like how Isildur is basically reacting to Kemin and saying, yep, this is how things

[00:38:56] are.

[00:38:56] And Kemin goes, no, it's not.

[00:38:58] And this is Isildur.

[00:38:59] You know, he doesn't know this information about how things have gone down and moving

[00:39:02] off.

[00:39:03] So he's pretty upset by it, obviously.

[00:39:07] I did find it.

[00:39:08] One thing I did find a bit confusing, and it wasn't, I don't think, explored as much as

[00:39:12] it could have been, was the whole thing between Estrid and Hagen.

[00:39:16] And so she says, yeah, okay, he's building me this house, but I'm not happy about it.

[00:39:21] And then, you know, she and Isildur kiss, and it's all very sweet and music and everything

[00:39:25] like that.

[00:39:25] And he says, come with me to Numenor.

[00:39:27] And then it looks like she's going to go because they're standing there by the ship.

[00:39:30] And he goes, oh, hey, can she come with me, pretty much?

[00:39:34] And it seemed to me like Kemin is saying, okay, you're allowed to come because you are

[00:39:40] kind of noble blood, but no one else can come.

[00:39:44] And then Isildur says, yeah, but can't we make an exception because I am kind of noble

[00:39:47] and special, and can't she come with me?

[00:39:49] And Hagen's just standing there.

[00:39:50] Yeah.

[00:39:50] And he's not saying anything.

[00:39:52] Yeah.

[00:39:52] Or doing anything.

[00:39:53] And then at the end, when Isildur gets on the ship without her, he like holds her hand.

[00:39:59] Hagen is like, whatever.

[00:40:02] If you stay, you stay.

[00:40:03] And if you go, you go.

[00:40:04] I'm fine either way.

[00:40:05] Like, he doesn't seem to care.

[00:40:09] Yeah.

[00:40:09] But yeah, I mean, I wonder whether that's intentional.

[00:40:11] You know, she says that she mistook his, potentially mistook his kindness just for love.

[00:40:16] Maybe he's just a very calm, mellow, kind person.

[00:40:18] And he loves her and he does want her to be happy.

[00:40:22] And maybe if she was to go, he was actually going to be okay with that.

[00:40:25] But that's too good to be true.

[00:40:26] Yeah.

[00:40:27] You want someone to be pissed off the pipe for you.

[00:40:29] It just added to my whole, like, I don't care about this story.

[00:40:32] It's just dumb.

[00:40:34] I have a feeling that the order that Kemen gives to the people that they have to bring

[00:40:39] him timber to make an armada is going to really upset the Ents.

[00:40:45] And I'm hoping it means we get the Ents back in season three.

[00:40:49] Yes, because he says they're just trees.

[00:40:50] And I'm like, oh, they're not just trees, Kemen.

[00:40:52] You better look out.

[00:40:53] And the idea of one of those Ents picking Kemen up and, like, shaking him makes me really

[00:40:59] happy.

[00:41:00] Just like, argh.

[00:41:02] Yeah.

[00:41:03] It was cool.

[00:41:04] Like I said, it was a surprise to see him there.

[00:41:06] But I do like how they're moving that story along.

[00:41:08] And that's pretty true to the story as well.

[00:41:10] You know, that was a Numenorean outpost.

[00:41:12] And I think it's really cool that they've brought them back there and they're kind of

[00:41:14] taking control.

[00:41:16] I did really like the scene with Isildur and Theo.

[00:41:19] I thought it was lovely how Theo kind of brought up again about their mums.

[00:41:23] And they had this really connecting moment.

[00:41:26] And it was really special.

[00:41:29] And again, it made me think, I wonder if Theo going to become the Witch King because

[00:41:34] he's close to Isildur.

[00:41:35] And there's going to be some betrayal later on, way later on in the story.

[00:41:39] I don't know if they're going to be able to manage that.

[00:41:41] But I think it was really cool, you know, with quite a lot of time without seeing them

[00:41:45] to have them tied up together at the end as well and have their storyline kind of,

[00:41:50] yeah, just kind of completed for now.

[00:41:53] And then we'll see what happens.

[00:41:54] Their relationship is nice, Theo and Isildur.

[00:41:57] It's very much sort of brotherly mentor, mentee.

[00:42:01] And you get the sense that Isildur is like, oh, I never thought of myself as being the older

[00:42:07] brother, right?

[00:42:07] I've always been the screw up baby of the family.

[00:42:10] And now here's this younger person looking up to me.

[00:42:14] I kind of like it.

[00:42:16] He's had a chance to be a mentor.

[00:42:17] And I think it's one of the first steps for him towards becoming a leader, you know, as

[00:42:22] he does become later.

[00:42:23] And I did like his, I wasn't a big fan of him in season one.

[00:42:29] And I mean, again, I think the actor's doing an amazing job.

[00:42:32] But the character itself, I found him quite annoying in season one.

[00:42:35] And in season two, he's definitely grown on me a little bit.

[00:42:38] And especially with this kind of development of him admitting that he's basically admitting

[00:42:44] that he was kind of sheltered and spoiled, you know, and he basically says, I hadn't realized,

[00:42:48] you know, that there are bigger things here in Middle Earth than I had imagined, which is

[00:42:53] really nice to hear, you know, given what we...

[00:42:55] Yeah, he's matured a lot.

[00:42:57] I think being, you know, tied up by spiders really gave him some time to think.

[00:43:03] That helped.

[00:43:03] And a little bit of time in the belly of the nameless thing in the swamp.

[00:43:08] A little bit of mud time.

[00:43:10] That helped.

[00:43:12] Yeah.

[00:43:13] That's all good.

[00:43:14] I think that's probably it for Palagir.

[00:43:16] And I think we need to get into the main meat of the story.

[00:43:21] Yeah.

[00:43:22] The best stuff.

[00:43:23] There are so many approaches to what's left to talk about, right?

[00:43:30] There's like Annatar and Celebrimbor.

[00:43:33] There's basically the sack of Eregion.

[00:43:36] There's Galadriel and Adar.

[00:43:38] There's Galadriel and Annatar.

[00:43:40] There's just, there's a lot.

[00:43:41] It's so good.

[00:43:42] But let's kind of go in order and start with Sauron and Celebrimbor.

[00:43:46] Yeah.

[00:43:46] Because this is what we've been leading up to all season long.

[00:43:50] And it was, oh, it was just incredible to watch.

[00:43:57] And just Charlie Vickers.

[00:43:59] I mean, I don't know if they're going to give out any nominations, acting nominations for this show.

[00:44:04] But both the Charlies need a nomination.

[00:44:07] Because they're just incredible.

[00:44:09] They're both wonderful and together they are magical.

[00:44:14] Their chemistry together is fantastic.

[00:44:16] That scene was so powerful.

[00:44:18] When he says, look what you've done to yourself.

[00:44:23] I wanted to reach through the screen and like smack him.

[00:44:27] Like, you did it.

[00:44:28] You did this.

[00:44:29] But he, his perspective is consistent.

[00:44:32] Sauron thinks, I'm just trying to help.

[00:44:35] Why can't you just do what I tell you to do?

[00:44:38] I'm just trying to, I'm trying to share your magic rings with the world.

[00:44:43] Like, why are you forcing me to torment you?

[00:44:45] And then he like reaches over and like twangs one of the arrows, which you know is wildly painful to Celebrimbor.

[00:44:52] And it's like, are you, you have no self-awareness.

[00:44:57] No.

[00:44:57] And it's that classic narcissist thing of him playing the victim.

[00:45:01] So he's saying, but I, but you know, I only wanted to share these with the world.

[00:45:05] You're the one who's stopping me from doing this.

[00:45:07] So he's kind of making it seem as though Celebrimbor is holding him back from this noble cause.

[00:45:12] So he's, he's painting Celebrimbor as the villain and you know, that, that he's standing there all regal in his robes and there's Celebrimbor on the ground, covered in blood and stuck with arrows and the most vulnerable, you know, tragic position.

[00:45:27] And for him to say, look what you've done to yourself.

[00:45:29] And he looks so psychotic.

[00:45:32] I just think Charlie Vickers, I mean, he's scared.

[00:45:34] He scared me.

[00:45:36] That scene, his eyes, the way his eyes looked, there's this something about this sort of shiny quality to them that is really terrifying.

[00:45:44] And then tweaking the arrows, you know, we see in the book, it mentions that he, he tortures Celebrimbor.

[00:45:52] And most of what we see in the appendices and then also quite a lot in this and more than other works as well.

[00:46:00] They just mention it in one line.

[00:46:02] So basically Sauron tortured Celebrimbor to find out where the rings were.

[00:46:07] That's pretty much it.

[00:46:08] You don't get dialogue.

[00:46:09] You don't get how he tortured in.

[00:46:11] You don't get detail.

[00:46:13] But we do know that he was also shot with a lot of arrows and I loved that they combined the two.

[00:46:17] They didn't have him pulling out fingernails.

[00:46:19] They didn't have him, you know, branding him or all these other torture devices.

[00:46:22] They basically used what was already in the story, shot him with arrows and then tweaking the arrows was the torture, which was so well done.

[00:46:30] And just so horrible.

[00:46:33] And Celebrimbor was visibly in pain, but refusing to give Sauron the satisfaction, right?

[00:46:45] He wasn't screaming or crying.

[00:46:47] And then he starts talking about, oh, it must be around noon.

[00:46:51] And the kingfishers used to be able to hear them coming to the river.

[00:46:55] And I was like, he knows he's about to die and he just wants to remember the beauty of his city.

[00:47:04] And also to thwart Sauron.

[00:47:06] So he's just talking about anything else other than the rings because he's like, I'm not going to tell you what you want to know.

[00:47:12] And it was so powerful and sad.

[00:47:18] And I had so much respect for Celebrimbor being able to sort of swallow his pain and be defiant to the very last moment.

[00:47:34] Yes, he kept his dignity.

[00:47:36] He's so dignified.

[00:47:37] And, you know, when they first sort of introduced Celebrimbor in season one, he sort of seemed a bit like the bumbling uncle a little bit.

[00:47:45] And I wasn't sure how they were going to, you know, explore this whole part of the story.

[00:47:52] But the way they have slowly built this up over the season has been incredible to show how and why he was able to be influenced and sucked in.

[00:48:04] And there's also a part that he said in the previous episode where he kind of knew, part of him knew, but he also just wanted the thing.

[00:48:12] Yeah.

[00:48:13] So he admits to why he was able to be influenced.

[00:48:17] And but at the end, he keeps his dignity and he doesn't plead.

[00:48:23] He doesn't beg.

[00:48:24] He's he doesn't even ask him to stop.

[00:48:26] He's just basically there and knows that his time is coming soon.

[00:48:30] And but I did look there was one look where I think it was right after when Sauron says, look what you've done to yourself.

[00:48:38] And Celebrimbor looks at Sauron like he can't believe the madness.

[00:48:41] He looks at him like you are off for the charts.

[00:48:45] And it's incredible.

[00:48:47] And I just love how he says, but the rings are beyond your reach as I shall be ere long for soon.

[00:48:52] I shall go on the shores of the morning born hence on a wind that you can never follow.

[00:48:56] And he's just quietly saying this.

[00:48:58] And that that's a torture to Sauron because Sauron knows that he can't.

[00:49:02] You know, he's he he's.

[00:49:08] I've lost my words because I'm so it's the ultimate thing to do to a narcissist is the thing that that narcissists crave more than anything else is attention and drama.

[00:49:23] And if a narcissist can get attention from you, they start with usually they start with kindness and love.

[00:49:30] They love bomb.

[00:49:31] Right.

[00:49:31] And that's what that's what he did in the beginning.

[00:49:34] You're so brilliant.

[00:49:35] I just want to help you realize your craft.

[00:49:37] Blah, blah, blah.

[00:49:38] You're the best Smith in the world.

[00:49:39] Blah, blah, blah.

[00:49:40] Blah, blah, blah, blah.

[00:50:11] Blah, blah, blah.

[00:50:12] He's like, you could you could feel this tension in him where he's like, oh, just cry already.

[00:50:18] Like, why aren't you screaming in pain?

[00:50:20] And then, you know, he says after that speech is when Anatar says, like, oh, I can keep you alive for a long time.

[00:50:27] I'm the master of my craft.

[00:50:29] And Celebrimbor, that's what that that is too much for Celebrimbor.

[00:50:33] He's like, craft, that's not a craft.

[00:50:35] Oh, you're a master of his treachery.

[00:50:37] And it will betray the very hand that forges it.

[00:50:40] And I'm like, so Celebrimbor has a little prophetic powers as well.

[00:50:45] Right.

[00:50:45] He's like, I've seen it.

[00:50:46] Yeah.

[00:50:47] You're going to be a prisoner of the rings.

[00:50:49] And yeah, that there's one that's going to be your undoing.

[00:50:53] And I'm like, all right.

[00:50:53] So, you know, that's prophecy.

[00:50:55] That's that's good.

[00:50:56] I love when he called him a shadow of Morgoth.

[00:50:59] Like, you're not even you're not even the real bad guy.

[00:51:02] You're just like a cheap knockoff of the bad guy.

[00:51:06] Yeah.

[00:51:06] And that's it.

[00:51:07] Like, I've learned a little bit more about narcissism as well through watching this.

[00:51:12] And that my understanding is that often narcissist is quite addicted to that attention and their admiration from the person that is their target.

[00:51:20] So in that way, you can also see why he wants to keep Celebrimbor alive.

[00:51:25] So it's not just about him wanting to get the information about the rings.

[00:51:28] He needs to keep him alive.

[00:51:30] Because like you say, that's his supply.

[00:51:31] That's the way he gets his admiration and feeds his addiction pretty much.

[00:51:37] And what I loved was at that part where Celebrimbor had had enough and he is basically right.

[00:51:44] I'm just going to wind him up now.

[00:51:46] So he kills me quickly.

[00:51:47] And I think it was very intentional of him.

[00:51:49] Oh, yeah.

[00:51:50] And, you know, when Annatar first shows up, he calls Celebrimbor the Lord of the Rings as a compliment.

[00:51:55] And I think that helps to suck Celebrimbor in and to say, yeah, wow, this is cool.

[00:51:59] I can be this amazing, you know, smith.

[00:52:02] But I just loved how Celebrimbor turned that name back on Sauron.

[00:52:07] You're their prisoner.

[00:52:08] You're the Lord of the Rings.

[00:52:09] And he says that one alone will be his ruin.

[00:52:13] And I also loved it.

[00:52:14] That was a bit ambiguous.

[00:52:15] He could mean one ring, but he could also mean one person.

[00:52:17] I love that.

[00:52:18] It could be one alone will be your ruin.

[00:52:21] And we know from the stories later that that's Frodo and potentially, depending on your thoughts, Sam is the one that actually defeats him.

[00:52:29] Yeah.

[00:52:29] Yeah.

[00:52:30] So there's a lot that he could be saying in that.

[00:52:33] And I love that he doesn't say one ring will be your ruin.

[00:52:35] He just says one alone.

[00:52:36] And I just think that was beautifully written.

[00:52:40] And then, of course, Sauron goes into that absolute rage.

[00:52:44] And he stabs him with the spear and then raises him up against the column.

[00:52:49] And this is such a great nod to the book.

[00:52:52] So we've talked about this quite a lot before in the spoiler section for people who didn't want to be spoiled with this.

[00:52:56] But we can talk about it now that in the book, as I said, he was tortured to find out the location of the of the rings.

[00:53:05] In the book, he does give away the location of the seven and the nine, but he does not give away the location of the three.

[00:53:11] And he's shot through with arrows.

[00:53:13] And then he's raised on a pike and he's paraded as a banner in front of the Alpen army.

[00:53:18] So that's why I said before, Calabrim banner.

[00:53:20] Yeah.

[00:53:20] That's a word that's been going around on the interwebs.

[00:53:23] People wanted to see the Calabrim banner.

[00:53:25] I didn't.

[00:53:25] And I loved that they paid tribute to that by raising him up on the pike.

[00:53:33] But I loved that it was just the intimate scene between the two of them.

[00:53:36] I don't think they needed the extreme graphicness of what it would have been like to have him on a pike in front of the army.

[00:53:45] I think this was perfect.

[00:53:46] It was beautifully done enough to be paying tribute to the book, but also that it was just between the two of them.

[00:53:54] And then you see Sauron's tears.

[00:53:58] And part of me was it's so complex.

[00:54:01] There's so many reasons for Sauron to cry in this moment.

[00:54:04] And part of me was thinking, is it is it just remorse?

[00:54:07] Is he sad that he's lost Calabrim boar?

[00:54:10] Is it his own loss because he didn't get the rings?

[00:54:14] I think he did admire and respect Calabrim boar, even though he was his victim.

[00:54:18] I think he had admiration for him.

[00:54:19] I think right up to the end, there was a part of him that was like, but we're friends.

[00:54:26] Why don't you understand that I love you?

[00:54:29] And I talked with somebody on the internet about this, that in Sauron's head, he's a good guy.

[00:54:38] He's just trying to help.

[00:54:40] And he's so misunderstood and lonely.

[00:54:45] And his relationship with Calabrim boar was very satisfying for him for a long time because they both are Smiths and they like creating things.

[00:54:55] And there were genuine bonds there about bonding over method.

[00:55:00] And remember how excited they were when they were talking about making an alloy in season one?

[00:55:07] And that was a genuine connection.

[00:55:10] Yeah.

[00:55:10] And he's lost like, he's lost who he thinks is his best friend.

[00:55:16] And this is typical of narcissists is that they don't have an ongoing memory of the pain they cause other people.

[00:55:25] Once they're done causing the pain, it's over for them.

[00:55:28] And so in his mind, there was still a chance that Calabrim boar was going to be like, no, you're right.

[00:55:35] We should share these rings with the world.

[00:55:38] And they were going to be together.

[00:55:42] And he's genuinely sad.

[00:55:45] Yeah, he is.

[00:55:46] And that'll come up later in the scene with him and Galadriel as well, just in terms of him still thinking that he can win someone over.

[00:55:54] We'll talk about that too later, but it did remind me of this scene too.

[00:55:58] I think he does mourn the loss of that talent.

[00:56:01] So he mourns that connection that they had, the loss of the talent of Calabrim boar.

[00:56:06] But he's also annoyed that he's lost his target.

[00:56:08] You know, he's lost his obsession and he's probably disappointed in himself.

[00:56:11] At heart, narcissists are very insecure.

[00:56:14] And he's disappointed that he had lost the plot and killed him in a rage.

[00:56:17] He's spent a lot of time trying to be very measured and very calm.

[00:56:21] And, you know, think of every single scene where someone touches him and you can tell that he's, he hates that, but he's kept it very buttoned down and very, very inside.

[00:56:33] And then I think, lastly, I think the other complex part of it is that I think it's also sadness and bitterness for himself that he can never have the integrity and the dignity and that inner beauty that Calabrim boar has.

[00:56:47] He knows that Calabrim boar has that and he will never have it.

[00:56:50] And he can have all of these facades that he creates and all of these pretend relationships that he fosters, but he'll never have those true and real things because of who he is.

[00:57:00] And I think he realizes that.

[00:57:03] I found a really cool interview with Charlie Vickers.

[00:57:07] I'm afraid I don't know the source because I found it on somebody's comment on some Facebook thing somewhere.

[00:57:13] But this is Charlie's words.

[00:57:16] So he, somebody asked him, was the tear planned?

[00:57:21] You know, did you, did you sort of plan to cry in that scene?

[00:57:24] And he says, I don't know.

[00:57:26] It just happened.

[00:57:26] That is the honest truth.

[00:57:28] As an actor, you just put yourself in the moment.

[00:57:30] And if something happens, it happens.

[00:57:32] It never happened to me before as Sauron and I didn't want to block that.

[00:57:36] If they use it, they use it.

[00:57:37] And they did use it.

[00:57:39] But you can justify it so many different ways.

[00:57:41] He had a great partner in Celebrimbor who was the greatest of Alvin Smiths, someone he revered and respected.

[00:57:46] They could have done really great things together.

[00:57:48] Celebrimbor could have been an amazing tool, but he killed him.

[00:57:51] And I don't think he wanted to kill him in that moment, but he lost control, which is very Sauron.

[00:57:56] If anything, the tear is probably more about his own reflection on himself, what he has become, and his history with Morgoth.

[00:58:02] Morgoth was very nihilistic and destroyed everything.

[00:58:05] He was out of control all the time, wrecking stuff.

[00:58:07] Sauron didn't want to be like that.

[00:58:09] And then Celebrimbor says to him, you've become a slave to the rings.

[00:58:12] They are your master.

[00:58:14] Sauron loses control and kills him when in fact he needed him to tell him where the nine rings were.

[00:58:18] There's a lot of sadness and anger and grief at the fact that he's seeing reflected in his own actions.

[00:58:24] Exactly what he doesn't want to become.

[00:58:25] But then interestingly, when Glug the Orc comes in, you see this really quite fast transition into,

[00:58:31] how can I twist this now?

[00:58:32] And he calls him an uric to try and get him on side, which I think is really cool writing.

[00:58:36] That transition is quite unhuman.

[00:58:38] So I really liked that because it showed that he, first of all, was so into the character and into the moment that the tears just came.

[00:58:47] You know, he was in that space.

[00:58:48] And then that recognition that he can be that moved by something, that affected by something.

[00:58:56] And then quick as anything, turns around and goes, how can I now?

[00:58:59] Like you say, you forget instantly the pain that you've caused.

[00:59:02] And so now what can I do to twist this situation to my benefit?

[00:59:05] It's an incredible writing.

[00:59:09] And for anyone who has experienced narcissistic abuse, it's incredibly familiar.

[00:59:17] To me, it's very familiar.

[00:59:19] And also cathartic.

[00:59:24] Seeing it portrayed in this way, in these sort of epic proportions of good versus evil,

[00:59:31] it's comforting to me to see that even Caleb Rimbore fell victim to this.

[00:59:37] And that it's not always something that you can see.

[00:59:42] And it's not something you can always defeat.

[00:59:45] And regular people fall victim to narcissists all the time.

[00:59:50] And it's not a moral failure to do so.

[00:59:54] Because they are very, to borrow a phrase from Tolkien, Trixie.

[01:00:02] Hmm.

[01:00:04] Absolutely.

[01:00:05] And, you know, I just want to sort of make it clear for people as well.

[01:00:09] You know, often in just normal life, people can accuse someone of being narcissistic or a narcissist.

[01:00:16] And that can just be used as a word to describe somebody's personality traits or the way somebody acts.

[01:00:23] But narcissistic personality disorder is actually a mental health disorder that can be diagnosed.

[01:00:30] And we did get some really interesting information sent through from Jason,

[01:00:35] who has done a bit of research of his own around narcissism.

[01:00:38] And I'd like to read that now because I think it gives a really good, clear indication.

[01:00:43] So we're not just talking about somebody who is a bit mean.

[01:00:46] We're talking about an actual, you know, an actual disorder.

[01:00:49] Right.

[01:00:50] A diagnosable condition.

[01:00:51] A diagnosis.

[01:00:52] Yeah.

[01:00:53] And so this is a disorder that's in the DSM-5, which is the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders.

[01:01:00] And so that's what psychiatrists use to diagnose people based on specific outlines of what their behaviour is.

[01:01:08] So there's nine main factors and five of the criteria need to be present to meet this diagnosis.

[01:01:16] So the factors are grandiose sense of self-importance, exaggerates achievement and talents, expects to be recognised as superior without commensurate achievements.

[01:01:26] The second one is fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty or idea of love.

[01:01:32] Sarah's definitely got that happening.

[01:01:34] Belief in being special and unique and can only be understood by or should be associated with other special or high status people.

[01:01:41] Requires excessive admiration.

[01:01:44] A sense of entitlement or especially favourable treatment or automatic compliance with his or her expectations.

[01:01:51] Interpersonally exploitative.

[01:01:53] Takes advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends.

[01:01:56] Lacks empathy.

[01:01:57] Unwilling to recognise or identify with the feelings and needs of others.

[01:02:01] Envious of others or believes that others are envious of him.

[01:02:03] Or her arrogant, haughty behaviours or attitudes.

[01:02:07] And Jason felt like Sauron at least meets seven of those, but probably actually all nine if we really look into it.

[01:02:13] There's a little bit of room for the grandiosity in the fact that he is like a supernatural being of the Valar.

[01:02:23] And so, I mean, he is kind of special.

[01:02:26] Yeah.

[01:02:27] Yeah, exactly.

[01:02:28] Yeah.

[01:02:28] That's one of those ones where it's actually, yeah, he's in a fantasy.

[01:02:32] He's not actually going to be diagnosed by a psychiatrist in this situation.

[01:02:36] Right.

[01:02:36] He's not human.

[01:02:37] And so his outsized expectations of, you know, his own abilities and his own powers and the outcome are, they're not as unrealistic as they would be in a human.

[01:02:48] Exactly.

[01:02:50] Yeah.

[01:02:50] And then Jason went on to explain a little bit about his thoughts regarding how this diagnosis fits in with Sauron.

[01:02:58] He says,

[01:03:30] He says,

[01:03:58] same time be sharing other people with love bombing moving on to new sources of narcissistic

[01:04:02] supply and side note from me I think we saw that a little bit with um Murdania yeah all the while

[01:04:09] the first person is feeling like it's their fault this is happening trying to get back to the initial

[01:04:13] high of the relationship but from what I've heard and read it's impossible to get it back sometimes

[01:04:17] the narcissist will throw out little bits of praise called breadcrumbing to make the person think it's

[01:04:21] possible but really they're just stringing them along and then when things go really bad the

[01:04:25] narcissist will bad mouth the person to all their mutual friends make it seem like they're coming

[01:04:29] from a place of care like isn't it too bad he's having such a hard time with things or you know

[01:04:33] rings again Sauron totally did this to the point where everyone just accepted him as the new leader

[01:04:38] of Eregion narcissists are often really charming and so people don't see through all of this there's a

[01:04:43] lot more but I agree that the writers of the rings of power must have done some research into narcissism

[01:04:47] and I agree with all of that thank you so much Jason it's a really good description of what we saw

[01:04:52] and it's so well portrayed and so well written on screen that you know the writers either have

[01:04:58] personal first-hand experience or they've done the proper research into what this looks like

[01:05:02] and it's beautifully done it's really really well done I hope that it helps some people I hope that

[01:05:09] there are people who see the pattern maybe listen to us talk about it and say oh that's a pattern

[01:05:16] in a relationship in my own life and if the pattern continues it's never going to be better

[01:05:25] I need to end this relationship and get out of it to that end we are going to include some

[01:05:31] some resources in the show notes if you're in a situation that you need help getting out of there

[01:05:38] are resources out there yeah we'll put a few links in the show notes and we really hope that

[01:05:46] that that might help someone and it's interesting for people from an outside perspective who have

[01:05:51] been lucky enough to never deal with anybody who's a narcissist to to look at and recognize what

[01:05:55] that is and you know we are aware that this is probably triggering for some people both watching

[01:06:00] the show and potentially the conversation that we've just had so please do reach out and have a

[01:06:05] wee look at those show notes if you'd like to to find out a little bit more information and look

[01:06:08] after yourself and remembering as well it's not always a romantic relationship as Jason said often it can be

[01:06:13] you can experience it at work you can experience it with family with friends and it's really important

[01:06:19] to be able to recognize those signs and and you know do something about that before it gets too

[01:06:24] damaging so yeah it's tragic as we saw it never ends well exactly yeah and just so beautifully

[01:06:35] shown on the screen and I think respectfully as well and realistically I mean as much as you can be

[01:06:40] realistic when you're talking about elves and and Maya but you know in terms of the personal relationships

[01:06:45] that happen it was beautifully done so I really enjoyed the way that they were able to to recreate

[01:06:51] that on screen and yeah that scene is as as painful as it is to watch I could watch it a hundred times

[01:06:59] just for the acting and for the the poetic nature of how they manage the dialogue and everything was just

[01:07:04] so incredible loved it I saw um I watched a lot of videos of the cast over the last week or so you know

[01:07:14] both official interviews and then there were a few where they had cast members interviewing each other

[01:07:20] and the actor who plays Gil Gallad was interviewing the two Charlies and he says to Charlie Edwards

[01:07:29] so what do you think is in store for you in season three and then they all just like cracked up it was

[01:07:34] so funny and so cute and I was like I'm pretty sure Charlie Edwards is moving on to other projects like this

[01:07:40] is I think that's a wrap on Charlie Edwards for Rings of Power maybe there'll be a flashback or something but

[01:07:47] I don't think he has a big role in season three he he did die yeah I think he's I think he's done and

[01:07:54] and I actually saw an interview with one of the other interviews I saw with Charlie Vickers was

[01:07:59] something about what are they going to do are they still going to do the banner are they still going

[01:08:04] to you know but I just think that's done I think they've they've paid enough tribute to it and some

[01:08:09] of the behind the scenes stuff um when they you know in all tv shows and movies when it's someone's

[01:08:15] last day on set they everybody usually goes to set for their last shot and everyone claps and there's

[01:08:20] usually a wee speech and stuff like that um but it seemed very much like a series wrap

[01:08:24] for him um yeah that he's not coming back so yeah I think he's done a phenomenal job and yeah

[01:08:29] I'm I'm excited to see what Charlie Edwards is going to do next because now that I'm aware of

[01:08:35] him as an actor I'm going to start looking for him and seeing his other projects he's so good

[01:08:42] yeah well I think we should move over to Adar and I think you should talk about him because I know that

[01:08:47] he's been a favorite of yours for a while yeah I do love Adar I love this character I think

[01:08:51] the concept of somebody who started off as an elf wanted power was corrupted became the leader of the

[01:09:00] Uruk but that his whole goal with the Uruks was for them to to live like the other free peoples of

[01:09:07] middle earth he's like we just want a homeland and we want you to leave us alone and then he gets

[01:09:11] obsessed with with Sauron and he gets manipulated by Sauron into bringing his army to Eregion right

[01:09:17] that's what Sauron wanted all along and the scene where Galadriel is brought to him right she turns

[01:09:24] herself in after she's uh she's gotten a handful of people out of Eregion through this dwarf tunnel

[01:09:31] and then there's orcs waiting for them there and they bring her to Adar and he's facing away from her

[01:09:37] and then she sees her ring on his hand and he turns around and he's beautiful right he's like this

[01:09:44] handsome elf man and she's like like the the shock for her and then you know he's like when I looked

[01:09:52] like this before I had a different name she asked him the name and then he's like uh that name doesn't

[01:09:56] matter that was the name that was given to me Adar is the name I earned and and they start to form

[01:10:04] a real alliance and he says you know if we defeat Sauron I'll take my Uruk home and and let's have peace

[01:10:12] and let's heal this rift between elves and Uruk and it's such a hopeful moment where I'm like she even

[01:10:21] says like but I've killed so many of your people he's like I forgive you like let's put it behind us

[01:10:25] and you know we've both done horrible things both sides have done things like let's just let's move

[01:10:31] forward and it's a beautiful vision right a world where the Uruk get to just be people and not be

[01:10:36] like you know basically slave army and and then um his Uruk lieutenant glug like fully betrays him

[01:10:49] like almost brutus versus caesar betrays him right lures him in stabs him and then there's that really

[01:10:56] violent like multiple stabbing scene very caesar right and um and his last words are something like

[01:11:05] my children and then and then anatar sauron is standing over him and says they're not children

[01:11:11] anymore that scene I was sad to lose Adar and I was sad that he didn't get to see his vision

[01:11:20] and of course I know that sauron was going to win in this I knew I mean I knew he was going to get the

[01:11:27] orc army because he has the orc army in lord of the rings but I there was a moment where I really was

[01:11:33] like oh that that's such a beautiful vision that we could heal the the wounds between orcs and elves and

[01:11:39] and at I really wanted it I wanted it so much and I'm also really sad that I'm pretty sure that's

[01:11:48] the last we're going to see of Adar like that I think he's gone I don't think he's coming back I

[01:11:54] also wonder if he gets to go to I'm sorry I've forgotten the name of the place where elves go when

[01:11:59] they die oh yeah so first they go to the halls of Mandos where they kind of get judged and then they

[01:12:04] can be reincarnated um into sometimes their same body and other times a different body um but I don't

[01:12:12] think they're going to visit that in this show I think that when you dig you're dead in this show so

[01:12:16] we saw that with Madania we see that with Calabrimbo he mentions the kind of next stage I guess but

[01:12:22] poetic about it so that could just be heaven yeah I think the representation in this is that it's kind

[01:12:28] of heaven it's a little bit like that with the undying lands as well that sense that you get with

[01:12:32] Frodo going off at the end you know they're literally physically living in another part of the

[01:12:37] world but it's the representation is that it's heaven I think that's where they're going with this

[01:12:41] that when you die you die you know that you've sort of seen a few elf deaths and it's very sad and

[01:12:45] it wouldn't be as sad if you went well that's fine they're just going to pop back up again later

[01:12:49] um I don't I agree I think that's the end for him and very poetic that it was the same way that

[01:12:55] he and his orcs killed Sauron you know that we saw in the in the first um part of this season

[01:13:02] exactly the same way being surrounded and multiple orcs stabbing him um and yeah he was beautiful

[01:13:08] I loved I loved that he was facing away and then turned around and we saw all of those old wounds

[01:13:15] healed um and so sad that when he took the ring off they all came back that it came back yeah and

[01:13:23] it's interesting that he says he was known by another name because there's been lots of

[01:13:26] speculation out there on the internet about who he could be and is he one of the oldest elves from

[01:13:32] Valinor or was he one of the first elves that was created in Middle Earth um and a lot of people

[01:13:38] saying that because you notice that he has a gauntlet or a glove on his left hand and you never

[01:13:42] see his left hand a lot of people were saying that it potentially could be one of the um the earlier

[01:13:48] elves who um whose hands were burnt by the Silmarils so I've got a bit of background about that

[01:13:54] this is from Tolkien Gateway so basically after the War of Wrath when Morgoth was defeated um the last

[01:14:00] two remaining uh members of Faenor's family his last two sons Maitros and Maglos um demanded the Silmarils

[01:14:08] from Eonwe so Eonwe is the herald of Manwe who's that the main boss Valar guy um but Eonwe refused to

[01:14:17] give them to them because of their many evil deeds so you know we've talked a little bit before and you

[01:14:22] can go back into all the history to find out about Faenor and his sons and all the nasty things they did

[01:14:27] so he basically says no you can't have the Silmarils um but the two brothers still wanted

[01:14:32] them so they crept into the the camp and they stole the jewels um but even though they got caught

[01:14:38] Eonwe actually let them go each brother took one jewel but because of their evil deeds they that this

[01:14:45] caused the jewels to burn their hands so in the same way that the Silmarils burnt Morgoth it

[01:14:49] actually burnt these elves because they'd done done evil and so each of them had a burnt hand from the

[01:14:56] the Silmarils um Maitros in despair cast himself into a fiery fisher um Magloa was the last surviving

[01:15:04] son threw her Silmaril into the sea and legend says that he still wanders the shores of the world singing

[01:15:10] laments for his despair and his regret um possibly later casting himself into the sea and meeting his doom

[01:15:16] so there's all this speculation oh my goodness could it be one of these guys because you know he was he

[01:15:21] was after the Silmarils and he burned his hand and that's why we don't see Adar's hand um but both of

[01:15:26] those elves were known very well to Galadriel and Elrond so yeah it's clear that they're not trying to

[01:15:31] intend it to be one of them it's more likely that he was one of the earliest elves um created in Middle

[01:15:37] Earth and he does talk earlier in the show about how he first came under service to Sauron um that part

[01:15:43] sort of seems to be a bit of a show creation um I mean it's known that Sauron was in charge of

[01:15:48] breeding orcs and raising armies and so on but it's not really anything about him having these 12

[01:15:54] dudes and giving them wine on the mountaintop kind of thing so I think that was a bit of a

[01:15:57] representation but I like how all of this stuff this background information and the idea that he's

[01:16:03] wearing this glove and he had this other name but he's not revealing it to us maybe for rights reasons

[01:16:09] because we can't say the names of some of the people in the other stories um but I think it was a

[01:16:14] nice tribute to that sort of first age elf history but without actually naming anyone I liked how they

[01:16:20] did it it was really cool um and I agree that he did seem to have that connection with Galadriel

[01:16:25] and they're they're about to make that sort of patch to fight Sauron but I loved that um I guess

[01:16:33] progression she first calls him Orc and then she moves to calling him Uruk and this is the first time

[01:16:39] so he turns around she sees his beautiful face and she says Ada and I loved that that she used his

[01:16:45] his chosen name you know his earned name um which was really beautiful and then just that betrayal

[01:16:50] the betrayal you know poor old Glug the the daddy Orc um you know he just wanted his family to be okay

[01:16:56] and somewhere to live and he switched allegiances and it did not pay off you know I felt something for him

[01:17:02] you know because we saw him from the start that he just wanted this home for his family and um and

[01:17:07] that's it you don't you don't switch your allegiance to someone like Sauron who's just going to use you

[01:17:12] to whatever yeah yeah exactly yeah so sad I also liked that Adar immediately took the ring off and gave

[01:17:22] it back to Galadriel because he didn't want more power for himself he really wanted the alliance with her

[01:17:30] and he wanted to earn her trust and so he immediately without any hesitation gave the ring back to her

[01:17:39] knowing probably that it would cause him to turn back into his you know scarred veiny self and

[01:17:45] I think he also was like I've earned this face as well as this name

[01:17:52] absolutely and I know at the start we kind of um when they switched actors there was part of me that

[01:17:59] really missed the um the portrayal previous of the previous actor that kind of got across a bit

[01:18:06] more of the tragedy and the sadness of this character and at first this new actor seemed to be a little bit

[01:18:13] more um warlike and a little bit less caring overall a little bit less um emotionally scarred than the

[01:18:21] previous portrayal but looking at it now and seeing what he's done with it I almost feel that that's

[01:18:25] intentional that that he started out that way and then he's moved towards this this portrayal at the

[01:18:31] end when he is really Adar the elf rather than Adar the orc father and um yeah I'm looking at a picture

[01:18:38] of him now and yeah just beautifully portrayed and you could see the sadness there and his eyes and

[01:18:43] the nobility

[01:18:47] it's so sad that his that his uruks betray him it's a horrible way to to die

[01:18:54] yeah yeah he's another one of those actors where like some of them you see interviews and you kind of

[01:19:00] can see that they're that character and there's some that you see like so Charlie Vickers is one like

[01:19:05] you see interviews with him and he's just this cheerful Aussie bloke and you can't believe that

[01:19:09] he's so right yeah and um it's it's a it's a little bit the same um with this actor as well

[01:19:15] like sometimes I look at him in interviews and and I'm like he just Sam Hazeldean he's just like

[01:19:21] chit-chatting away and he seems like a really nice bloke and stuff and he's like he's Adar it's amazing

[01:19:27] this thousands and thousands of years old and just does such an incredible job it's really cool

[01:19:33] R.I.P. Adar should we get into the uh what I think is sort of a the heart the climax of the episode

[01:19:45] absolutely and so we're talking Galadriel

[01:19:48] yeah

[01:19:50] um so so their scene starts with her saying this was your design all along and he's like

[01:19:58] you think too much of me and we've been debating this over the season right is he

[01:20:03] is he a puppet master or an opportunist and he sort of confirms he's a little bit of a puppet master

[01:20:11] but also a lot of an opportunist he's like you know the road goes ever winding and even I can't see

[01:20:19] all the paths and you know things work out the way they work out and he just keeps making decisions

[01:20:26] that benefit him as he goes along but he doesn't get everything he wants

[01:20:32] um I thought that was a nice confirmation of something that we had been wondering for a long

[01:20:38] time and then um the I've said before I see a lot of Buffy the Vampire Slayer in Galadriel and

[01:20:47] the whole scene you know this fight scene with Annatar the sword fight reminded me so much of Buffy

[01:20:57] season two finale when she has the big sword fight showdown with Angelus and sorry listeners if

[01:21:08] you're not Buffy fans but Angelus is a character that had been good and turns evil and he and Buffy were in

[01:21:16] love and then he becomes her greatest adversary and they fight and first of all I thought the fighting

[01:21:23] style was similar physically similar but also the way that he was playing with her memories of the

[01:21:32] good things and the bond that she had with Hal Brand sort of rubbing her face in it it was very

[01:21:39] unjealous and it was very painful and yet she was defiant and ultimately was able to not succumb to his

[01:21:50] mind control literal mind control um it made me really want to go back and watch Buffy season two

[01:21:58] um finale again because I was like god there's so many similarities there but um I don't want to get

[01:22:07] into a whole I have a separate podcast about Buffy called still slaying if you want to hear about it but

[01:22:13] the the way that he was manipulating her emotionally at the same time that he was fighting her physically

[01:22:19] I thought was really moving also using the crown as a weapon was just cool that was a cool move every

[01:22:27] time he trapped her sword with it and then he would like rotate his wrist I was like oh that is so cool

[01:22:34] just it was really cool I loved how um when he says the road goes ever winding that's a very Tolkien

[01:22:41] style line um it's a bit reminiscent of the of the walking song that Bilbo sings the road goes ever on

[01:22:47] and on I quite liked that um but yeah to to represent that that things have happened that he didn't expect

[01:22:54] but he will always twist them to his own his own benefit and I loved the progression over this scene

[01:23:00] um he's not fighting very hard at first he's toying with her and he still thinks that he can get her

[01:23:06] on side he still he still believes that I think um you know he uses her brother's line to find the

[01:23:12] light we must first touch the darkness so he's trying to remind her of the darkness that she does

[01:23:17] have within he's seen that and he's trying to remind her and use that as a um as a kind of weapon to

[01:23:23] to bring her in um and she says to him we're not alike it's just another illusion and he says not all

[01:23:29] of it and then he puts on his hell brand skin you know we talked about this before that stops her in

[01:23:34] her tracks yeah it really does because she remembers that connection that she felt to him and and that

[01:23:40] she did have with him earlier and he's got these big sad puppy dog eyes looking at her and and you

[01:23:46] know I don't think for a second that she falls for it but she she's um conflicted for a little bit

[01:23:52] within herself of remembering the feelings that she'd had it was another thing that really reminded

[01:23:57] me of angel and buffy because he has said several times like the way I felt fighting by your side if

[01:24:04] I could just I thought if I could just hold on to that feeling and he's he's trying to draft off her

[01:24:11] goodness and light for his own redemption right he thinks she's so good if I ally with her if I make

[01:24:18] her my queen then I won't be that bad and I can be redeemed but it's like a vampire he wants to suck

[01:24:24] the goodness out of her and use it for his own ends he's not selfless he's not trying to actually

[01:24:30] redeem himself he's just feeling sorry for himself and he's grasping at straws and he thinks he can like

[01:24:36] feed off of her light and goodness it's it's I mean it's evil big surprise Sauron is evil

[01:24:45] it it is and then he he tries another trick putting on the Galadriel skin so he he appears as Galadriel

[01:24:53] and she has to fight herself and I love that it was so symbolic you know she's battled her own conflicting

[01:24:57] desires and throughout so it was really cool that she had to yeah so she had to fight herself but I also

[01:25:03] loved the styling of that it's quite hard to see when they're moving fast but the the Sauron Galadriel

[01:25:08] was very clean and shiny and kind of looked all perfect um while the the real Galadriel had already

[01:25:15] started to become a little bit scarred and dirty and grubby and um her hair was messier and I loved

[01:25:20] that they had the difference between those two it was beautifully done wonderful attention and then he

[01:25:24] becomes then he becomes Calabrimbor and he says are they not the seeds you planted and again that's

[01:25:31] getting into her mind you started this this was your fault there was things that you did in the

[01:25:36] beginning to make this come about and and to play on that guilt with her as well I was sure he was

[01:25:41] going to become Finrod as well her brother I was certain he was going to pull that out I'm glad he

[01:25:45] didn't he he brought up the line which was cool and he says to her I see you I know your mind the

[01:25:52] door is still open and he has this evil little smile like it's sort of a cross between evil and

[01:25:58] innocent there's part of him that's like I think I think she I can still talk when they're over I

[01:26:02] think she likes me yeah yeah the door's still open I'm still offering everything and he looks hopeful

[01:26:08] even um and then oh I watched this maybe five or eight times when she says the door is shut and

[01:26:17] kicks him in the face that's pretty satisfying she kicks him in the face so hard that it slams him

[01:26:24] like three or four meters back into this big boulder and I just thought it was so great and that's when

[01:26:29] he loses it so again it's a really similar thing to with Calabranboa when he knows that that door is

[01:26:36] shut and he gets into a rage um and he it just gets really intense and I think it was um a fairly

[01:26:43] matched fight you know like I could tell that she wasn't going to win she she's not going to win

[01:26:48] she is one of the oldest and strongest and most battle-hardened elves in Middle Earth and even

[01:26:54] though he is Maya he is still in an earthly form so his body we've seen his body can still be overcome

[01:27:00] um but so I think they're quite evenly matched and she has a ring which helps yeah but but he he was

[01:27:08] she was never gonna and and if everything else you know was the same and she didn't jump off the

[01:27:14] cliff she would have lost that fight um and then yeah she cuts him and I just could not help but

[01:27:22] think of um dodgeball when he goes nobody makes me bleed my own blood because he just

[01:27:27] he just looks to her how dare you how dare you cut me um I cannot stop anytime someone cuts anyone

[01:27:35] in any show I can't stop thinking of that oh I've been still I love him

[01:27:42] um and that's when he stabs her and um he says that incredible line and I think you you've got a

[01:27:47] clip of it the the line that he says to her after he stabs her with the with the crown

[01:27:54] I would have placed a crown upon your head I would never have rested

[01:28:01] until all Middle Earth had been brought to its knees to worship the light of its queen

[01:28:30] even in wanting to make her a queen he doesn't understand that Galadriel doesn't want to be

[01:28:37] worshipped that's not her goal right he's like I would have made you a queen and I would have

[01:28:42] made everyone bow down to your light like that's not what light is for that's not the point of being

[01:28:49] good and light is to make people bow down to you and he just so fundamentally misunderstands good

[01:28:56] yeah I think he misunderstands good but I think he does see something in Galadriel that is there and

[01:29:03] is there from the writings that she she did actually want power she wanted some she wanted

[01:29:08] a people to rule over in a land of her own so that was a motivating factor for her from the beginning

[01:29:13] um but it's not because she wants to dominate necessarily because I think she is of course inherently good

[01:29:20] um but he does miss the point with her that he's just like but everyone's going to worship us and

[01:29:25] think that we're great yeah that's not what she wants um and and you can see that later she does

[01:29:30] you know eventually get her her own realm but it's secret it's hidden it's not and she's more of a

[01:29:36] leader not a not a ruler it's different yeah definitely yeah and then yeah the way he stabs her with

[01:29:44] that crown the way he used it in the in the fight um like you say twisting the sword around and then

[01:29:50] the way he stabs her with it it was brutal um and then she falls down there and he takes the nine

[01:29:56] and um and she says to him you wish to heal middle earth heal yourself and he again he thinks that

[01:30:03] she's going to give him the ring she's holding it he gets that little smirky smile oh yeah it's cool

[01:30:09] you're going to give it over me and everything's going to be cool um and I loved how she goes to tip

[01:30:14] the ring and it was sort of reluctant to leave her hand just like the one ring with bilbo when he

[01:30:19] was like a little sticky or something sticks yeah I love that and and then and then she falls and

[01:30:26] I loved that it was really the only way to get away he was he was convenient cliff

[01:30:32] yeah and then glug comes up and is like you know what are your orders dark lord and and sauron

[01:30:38] just stabs him and I was like was he always planning to kill glug because you can never

[01:30:44] trust a traitor or was he just so upset at losing gladriel in that moment that he was just lashing

[01:30:51] out maybe both I don't know but of both yeah he means nothing to him yeah he's not like oh it's

[01:30:58] like it's like you know when people are angry and they punch a wall or break a plate he just was like

[01:31:04] yeah it's it's a bit like my dania yeah you know glug had served his purpose don't need him anymore

[01:31:11] off you go that was really it um and his look on his face when he turns around you know I'm sure he

[01:31:17] knows that she survived this fall um and yeah but he's kind of now right I have to get on with the

[01:31:23] next with the next job which is gathering my orcs and then you know heading off into into mortar and

[01:31:28] regrouping I guess uh because he also hears the uh the horns of the dwarves and so he knows that um

[01:31:35] that the dwarves have come to assist at the at the last minute yeah and he's he has accomplished

[01:31:39] everything he wanted to accomplish he destroyed a region he got the nine rings and he has an orc army

[01:31:48] he's he's ready to move to the next step you know regrouping in mordor and also distributing the nine

[01:31:54] rings yeah he's um he's definitely leveled up that's for sure getting closer and closer to the

[01:32:01] sour and that we know from from the lord of the rings so it's it's perfect in this sort of um 40

[01:32:07] of the way through this this story where we've got to with him and I'm impressed how how well they've

[01:32:12] done that over the season it's been amazing to go from our brand to this I hadn't done that math

[01:32:17] 40 we are two out of five seasons that's 40 yep that's it and I was just so excited to see the dwarves

[01:32:27] show up yeah I was you know it's in the story that they show up but you know Eregion still falls

[01:32:33] and I think they portrayed this nicely so they show up and this is a way for our leaders and um

[01:32:38] some of the population to get away um but also that the city is is destroyed and I love when um

[01:32:45] Gil-galad and Elrond have been taken by the orcs and they're being marched through the city

[01:32:49] I love how Gil-galad um turned the ring around so you couldn't see the stone did you notice that

[01:32:54] it was quite exciting it it turns it around and hit it which was really cool and I just love

[01:32:59] Elrond he took like at least five of those orcs out yeah um just in that little struggle I love when

[01:33:04] he's like not the books no not the books kill us but not the books it was so cute I was like

[01:33:10] orcs don't care about books no take me not the scrolls and you know he's a scholar so he's

[01:33:16] visibly devastated that they're destroying this this um this library and it is really really sad

[01:33:21] um and then of course we see our beautiful Aron dear he is alive we knew he was alive

[01:33:29] again I've seen a little bit on the internet people whining about we didn't see the scene of

[01:33:34] him being healed and why wasn't he dead and look he he was still moving when Adar left him

[01:33:39] in the last episode um he was still crawling and yes he had he'd been stabbed but um that might

[01:33:45] have killed a human but elves can survive many wounds and he actually said himself um previously

[01:33:50] we can survive many wounds that would kill a mortal um and I'm totally fine with that I don't think it

[01:33:57] felt too much like a yada yada over it I feel like they're just like well it's Aron dear he's fine he

[01:34:02] shows up I was very happy to see him there is a small contingent on the internet that thinks

[01:34:06] that's not Aron dear that's that's uh Sauron pretending to be Aron dear I'm like uh

[01:34:14] I mean some people just want too much complication it's it's yeah no I I think that's unlikely um

[01:34:22] I have a question so yeah Tolkien didn't believe that there were creatures of pure evil is that is

[01:34:31] that right is there yeah a version of the story where Sauron is redeemable um he's he's definitely

[01:34:40] known to be wanting to redeem himself early on so he does want to heal Middle-earth the way that he

[01:34:45] goes about it is not ideal but he does he does actually want to and there's a point where um earlier

[01:34:51] in the story where uh after Morgoth is defeated where the Valar say okay actually you know you can

[01:34:58] redeem yourself um all you have to do is come back to Valanor and behave and be good um and he

[01:35:04] refuses he just says nah actually I think I'll just stay here and be the dark lord so he does have

[01:35:09] there is an actual point where he has a choice and he's offered redemption he's offered forgiveness

[01:35:13] and um he just doesn't like the terms so he makes a very clear choice and then I think they've kind of um

[01:35:20] I guess represented that in a subtle way in this series to show that when he is hellbrand maybe

[01:35:28] he does actually want to redeem himself and do and do good um but then they've moved it into the

[01:35:34] I want to save Middle-earth um but I'm going to do it in a really evil way so I think it's very true

[01:35:40] to his character for sure and you know some people who only see this the story on the surface

[01:35:45] um do say that Tolkien's characters are really black and white they're they're either good or

[01:35:51] they're bad and they're not everyone's just about everyone's quite a gray character in this maybe

[01:35:55] apart from Sam he's pure but um you know like a lot of them have complexities and I really like

[01:36:01] that about it so I think it's great um and we see we see Galadriel she's fallen down and then

[01:36:08] obviously um you know Alrond and uh Gilgalad and Arondia get away with the rest of the of the

[01:36:15] elves and they find Galadriel lying there in the forest and oh I loved Gilgalad in this scene I

[01:36:22] just thought he was awesome you know I've had my moments where he's just all snobby and kingly and

[01:36:26] blah blah but I just thought he was great you know I don't know what it is about him and Alrond but when

[01:36:32] they're grubby they are fine yeah I mean there was a lot of gorgeousness happening in those final

[01:36:39] scenes yeah the three of them the three of those those guys and all grubby in that forest yeah totally

[01:36:45] I I loved how Gilgalad was speaking elvish when he's trying to heal her and he calls her Alatariel

[01:36:50] which is another of her names it's her Tuliri name and that was really cool and I mean Alrond puts

[01:36:56] on the ring so you know the the power of Gilgalad's ring is not enough we know that she's been stabbed

[01:37:02] by this um this crown and uh he Alrond has this moment where he realizes that he can help and that

[01:37:10] maybe the rings are good for a purpose um he puts on the ring and I loved how he just looks straight

[01:37:16] down the camera like it's a really intense look that he's putting this on and um and then this helps to

[01:37:23] heal her and so I really liked this scene I think the her fighting Sauron hand to hand is a show

[01:37:30] creation you don't really get that in the in the lore um in this this part of the story um but I love

[01:37:37] that they used the symbol of being stabbed with Morgoth's crown so it's the evil that she had been

[01:37:43] fighting for thousands of years represented again in this reforged crown that's now Sauron's

[01:37:49] and it's also similar to the Morgul blade so we've seen this in Lord of the Rings before where the

[01:37:54] witch king stabs Frodo and there's a darkness to that weapon that stays with you so in Frodo's case

[01:38:01] part of the actual sword itself remained in the wound and it began to lead him into this wraith world

[01:38:06] and then later on he was healed by Alond in Rivendell um and for Frodo he he felt that pain and that

[01:38:12] despair on every anniversary of the of the event um but he was finally free of it when he crossed the

[01:38:19] sea to Valinor and I really think that um this visual representation of Galadriel being stabbed by the

[01:38:25] crown is a really good explanation of later why the darkness kind of remains in her to an extent

[01:38:31] and she's always bound to Sauron in that way and we see this later in the books and we see it in

[01:38:37] the movies where you know she's on by the mirror with um Frodo and she says you should have a dark

[01:38:43] queen and you can sort of see that torment and that um that conflict within her and the darkness within

[01:38:49] her I love how they've kind of you know retrofit this part to that I just think it fits so nicely

[01:38:55] with the theme of the story and with her character I thought it was the whole like to find the light

[01:39:00] you must first touch the darkness there's no such thing as pure light or pure dark at least not in

[01:39:08] Tolkien's universe and I think that's true of our universe as well there are there are people who have done

[01:39:15] just unspeakably evil things but I don't believe that there are humans who have no good in them or

[01:39:26] humans that don't have you know temptations or darkness in them either I just I don't believe in

[01:39:31] that I agree yep yeah so that was that sort of scene where I guess we'll come back we'll maybe

[01:39:41] come back to to where they go next I did want to just sort of wrap up the the little main ending

[01:39:47] part that we see in Rune um again I was a bit distracted to go back there after all this

[01:39:55] I know I was like they should have just wrapped all that stuff up at the midpoint of the episode

[01:40:00] and been done with Rune yeah I kind of went oh we're back here again wait I have to just reset my brain

[01:40:06] to being there um but I did I did like the way they did it in the end so I did I did enjoy the

[01:40:13] the voiceover that Poppy did it was a way to wrap it up and it was very reminiscent of um of Sam's

[01:40:20] speech in the two towers and um I don't know if you remember but there's a part in Oz Gilead where

[01:40:26] um they're basically you know this is all very very despairing and it's a bit um it's a bit uh

[01:40:32] Empire Strikes Back like in terms of end of the second movie things have all gone to crap let's uh try and

[01:40:37] kind of find the light and um I think it's really cool because I think you know Poppy and Sam are two

[01:40:44] similar characters yeah they're the friendly loyal sidekick of the main hobbit type thing um but I did

[01:40:50] weave everything together nicely it is very like Sam's speech in the two towers and I've got Sam's

[01:40:56] speech here he says it's like in the great stories Mr Frodo the ones that really mattered full of darkness

[01:41:02] and danger they were and sometimes you didn't want to know the end because how could the end be happy

[01:41:06] how could the world go back to the way it was when so much bad had happened but in the end it's only a

[01:41:11] passing thing this shadow even darkness must pass a new day will come and when the sun shines it will

[01:41:17] shine out the clearer those were the stories that stayed with you that meant something even if you

[01:41:21] were too small to understand why but I think Mr Frodo I do understand I know now folk in those stories

[01:41:27] had lots of chances of turning back only they didn't because they were holding on to something

[01:41:31] that there's some good in this world Mr Frodo and it's worth fighting for

[01:41:36] and I loved that her speech was reminiscent of that partly because of the way the characters are

[01:41:40] quite similar but also because it kind of just tied everything up nicely so she said she says

[01:41:46] some things can't be fixed some things lost are lost forever no matter how hard we fight how much

[01:41:52] it hurts or how much our hearts yearn to put them back together because this world is so much bigger

[01:41:57] than any of us and sometimes the winds blowing against us are just too strong at those times we've just

[01:42:03] got to accept it what's broke is broke and won't fix and all anybody can try and do is to build

[01:42:09] something new and I thought that was really lovely it was a nice um reflection on grief and on what

[01:42:17] it's like to lose someone and and what to do next that's always with you but you have to move on and do

[01:42:22] the next thing and it tied in really nicely as a voiceover for the little scenes that we see

[01:42:28] to tie up this whole season so it flicks between different scenes and we see Durin's funeral scene

[01:42:35] we see the elves being led by Elrond leaving Eregion we see Isildur on the ship back to Numenor and

[01:42:42] Estrid standing there with Hagen we see Miriel in chains before the court of Farazan we see Elendil

[01:42:49] leaving the city just like he did in this vision and we see Sauron standing there with Fayanor's hammer

[01:42:54] and it was a really cool device so while I was distracted when we went back to Rune I loved what

[01:42:59] they did with it and it did tie everything nicely together at the end and sort of show us where we're

[01:43:04] leaving each thread which was cool and then there's the scene at the very end where Galadriel wakes up

[01:43:11] and she's healed and they're talking about what they're going to do next and Eregion asks her what

[01:43:17] she thinks they should do I would remember the counsel of our dear friend

[01:43:25] Philip Bimble greatest of Elven Smiths and remind our people which is not strength

[01:43:40] to overcomes darkness but light and the sun yet shines

[01:44:00] the music is really helping but that I find to be very moving and I realized it's a paraphrase of a

[01:44:15] Martin Luther King Jr sermon it's one of his most famous sermons uh entitled loving your enemies

[01:44:22] and he preached returning hate for hate multiplies hate adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid

[01:44:30] of stars darkness darkness darkness only light can do that hate cannot drive out hate only love can do

[01:44:39] that and it's words I try to live by in my life you know there are dark things in our world like there

[01:44:48] are in Tolkien's world and we fight against them but I also try to fight against darkness by spreading

[01:44:57] love I try to be giving and loving even to people I don't know and it's why I you know volunteer for

[01:45:06] a local homeless shelter and I take food to a local community fridge where people could just take food if they

[01:45:15] want food and and I think that violence isn't the answer to problems and it should only be used to

[01:45:26] stop other violence and and never to to try to solve anything it's just how I believe and

[01:45:35] I don't know this is a little I'm a little schmaltzy but you know try to be the light in the world

[01:45:41] I would ask our listeners that's beautiful I love that I exactly and I and I love how you've you've linked it

[01:45:49] back to that to that sermon and um you know it's a it's a an interesting way to look at the world and I

[01:45:56] think it's the right way to look at the world and um I was having a chat with someone the other day

[01:46:01] just about how how you help to teach your kids that and I one of the things that I try and teach my kids

[01:46:08] is to look for the good in everyone and this is not a way to be sucked in by stuff or be taken advantage

[01:46:14] of always look for the good in someone but also be cautious and be wary and you know but to see first

[01:46:20] that there's a good in each person in each situation is a good way to look at the world

[01:46:25] in the same way that you can protect yourself in other ways but also um to to keep that in mind

[01:46:31] and the world is a better place if everyone does that so agreed I I love that they brought this in and

[01:46:38] I think it's a big development for Galadriel too from when we see her in the very start of the first

[01:46:46] season it's only about finding Sauron and defeating him it's only about looking for the darkness

[01:46:51] she's a pure soldier and getting on yeah and this now especially when you have um

[01:47:00] Galad is sort of saying what what are we going to what are we going to do here we've got this

[01:47:04] choice basically and it's the sword or the shield are we going to come out and attack fully or are we

[01:47:10] going to regroup and use the shield and I think that they've chosen the shield obviously they're

[01:47:16] going to just kind of regroup at this point um but they're going to consolidate what they have

[01:47:22] which is the goodness and the lightness and and go from there and I thought it was beautifully done

[01:47:29] and Rivendell this is Rivendell so they they mentioned it um in the beginning they said that the the

[01:47:36] escaping to the north a valley to the north of here and so they've placed that nicely geographically

[01:47:42] that we know that that's Rivendell and they've made it look similar enough to what we've seen before

[01:47:47] in the artwork um of Alan Lee and John Howe and obviously translating into the what we see on screen

[01:47:52] and the Lord of the Rings that this looks like Rivendell with these beautiful trees and these rocks and

[01:47:57] this hidden kind of valley which is really cool I've always wanted to go to Rivendell I

[01:48:01] I um it's my favorite fictional location that's beautiful isn't it when I used to do the Lord of

[01:48:09] the Rings tours everyone was like oh oh my god do we get to see Rivendell and unfortunately um Rivendell

[01:48:14] was almost entirely in the studio um and with the background digital there was a few parts that they

[01:48:22] did that were kind of walking through this one little kind of you know just a local kind of um city

[01:48:29] park that they used to kind of show some of the the little walking to and fro on the grass bits

[01:48:34] but there's not really a location that you can visit so much um there's a there's a spot that they

[01:48:39] did use in Wellington and I think they've actually they've had more license recently to go back and

[01:48:45] actually build some things that look like the sets so there's a spot that you can go to um in

[01:48:51] Wellington that that kind of is Rivendell but it's not the same as some of the other locations that are

[01:48:55] so obvious of what it is but yeah beautiful I uh I just um recently started rereading

[01:49:01] the fellowship of the ring and I got to the part where they're in Rivendell and the way that Bilbo

[01:49:09] describes Rivendell is it's the perfect place if you want to sing or feast or read or talk or just sit

[01:49:18] and think I think I'm paraphrasing that is not exactly how he said it but to me I was like that's

[01:49:24] where I want to go I want to go to a place like that where where you can do all those things or

[01:49:29] any of those things or nothing and and it's you know there's all this music all the time and people

[01:49:35] are constantly creating art it's it sounds like heaven to me and then it's also this place where

[01:49:42] people go when they have questions because they seek the wisdom of Elrond and there's you know

[01:49:48] they're just starting I'm at the part of the book where they're just starting the council of Elrond

[01:49:52] and I'm like yeah like he now that I've seen this show and I understand about what they lost at

[01:49:59] Eregion I understand better what he created at Rivendell because he wanted a place of peace and

[01:50:06] protection and healing but also education and art and creation and for him those things are

[01:50:14] intrinsically related you can't have protection without art yeah definitely yeah

[01:50:21] I love that and it's cool when you sort of see you know there's obviously all of the rest of the elves

[01:50:26] there and then you've got Galadriel and Arundir and Gilgalad but seeing Elrond himself in Rivendell

[01:50:32] was really cool to see that kind of origin story I love that I love that Arundir is like he's like

[01:50:39] really moved up in the world from being like just some soldier to being at the top of that cliff with

[01:50:46] like three of the most powerful elves that exist and he's like he's right up there with them I'm

[01:50:52] I'm psyched great and when he shows back up and and and Galadriel says oh dear and he comes over and

[01:50:58] the fact that he was he felt close enough to her to actually take her hands you know when she's this

[01:51:05] this noble elf was really cool I loved that that connection and it gives me hope that we're going to

[01:51:11] our friend Ismael um continue in the next few seasons because I think they've put him into this

[01:51:17] place where he's this character that's going to mean a lot and he's not canon so they can do what

[01:51:21] they like with him and I hope that what they like is to keep him around because we love him

[01:51:26] oh Ismael if we ever get to talk to you we'll tell you how much we love you

[01:51:31] we will all right there's one last little bit I think um Gandalf he's he gets his staff

[01:51:40] he gets his name and he goes back to visit our friend Tom the very very end and um I love how he

[01:51:50] says I was meant to choose friendship over power I was meant to find this meaning his staff and it's

[01:51:57] really similar to Gandalf and the Lord of the Rings telling Frodo that he was meant to have the

[01:52:01] ring and it was meant to come to him so there's just some semblance of kind of fate there or destiny

[01:52:06] um and we all knew it was a test of course you have to choose a friendship and in doing so then

[01:52:12] you will find your destiny all of that stuff very cute little scene loved how they they ended with

[01:52:17] them singing it was beautifully done it was really cool and that that song is actually um on the

[01:52:22] soundtrack as well and then the other thing that I loved in that scene was Tom's hedgehog teapot

[01:52:27] how cool was that internet is on fire about that teapot people are like I don't want to buy the clothes

[01:52:34] I want this teapot like they need to get that into manufacturing right away I mean it's Amazon

[01:52:41] they're missing an opportunity there is so much merch you could do from this show and I just haven't

[01:52:46] really seen any but I would get that teapot I've seen a lot of clothes that sort of mimic the feel

[01:52:52] of the elven clothes I've seen some dresses and I've seen a lot of hoodies that have you know like

[01:52:58] symbols from various characters on them and of course I have a great eye of Sauron t-shirt that I

[01:53:05] wear and I think is hilarious because it's like I'm rooting for the devil I think that teapot will sell

[01:53:10] out in like minutes if they make it it's incredible yeah I saw um I saw on Facebook someone had made a

[01:53:18] cosplay of Arondia's um breastplate and shoulder plates um all hand carved look exactly so beautiful

[01:53:25] I saw that too I was like blown away by the artistry and I was like hand carved that whole face and

[01:53:31] everything like amazing so beautiful and then someone said why does it have a belly button

[01:53:38] it does have a belly button and I didn't really notice that I feel like I feel like the one that

[01:53:43] he's wearing um you can sort of see abs on it but the belly button is not very obvious when you see

[01:53:50] it on screen I hadn't noticed it before oh pretty funny because it's like a tree person so although I

[01:53:56] don't think it's an ant the the armor looks like a tree person to me so I guess I thought that the

[01:54:04] marks weren't abs but they were like you know like the rings of a tree or a knot or something like that

[01:54:11] yeah it's beautifully done yeah and I thought it was really cool how he talks about his name so

[01:54:18] you've got the you've got the uh stores saying thanks grand elf thanks grand elf and then it becomes

[01:54:24] gandalf and um I quite like that so the thing about the the wizards as I said before they

[01:54:34] weren't supposed to go around saying who they were and what they were there for and very few of the

[01:54:39] inhabitants of middle earth knew who they really were their story didn't share that information

[01:54:44] most of them believed that they were elves or wise men and the name gandalf represents that

[01:54:49] interpretation so it means wand elf because the men that gave him that nickname believed that he was an

[01:54:55] elf so that actually does fit a lot of people saying oh it's too cutesy grand elf becoming gandalf it's

[01:55:00] like but um I actually quite like it I'm okay with it and the other reason I like it is a little bit

[01:55:05] personal um when I was doing the lord of the rings tours um my dad was also a tour guide um at one

[01:55:11] point for them and we had to have passenger licenses so we could drive people around and when you get a

[01:55:18] passenger license you have to have your registration card to display um like you know like a taxi driver

[01:55:23] an uber driver has their little card with their name on it and their picture and um my dad's um

[01:55:30] passenger driver name was grand elf because he used to like to dress up as gandalf and he looked exactly

[01:55:37] the same as him and um and he's a granddad and so the grandkids called him grand elf and so I really

[01:55:44] liked that they used the name grand elf in this it was a really cool connection for me so

[01:55:47] that is really cute I think that's just about it I think we've covered it I had a couple of little

[01:55:57] wee tiny notes apart from the hedgehog teapot that was one of them Sauron's little bow and his hairdo

[01:56:03] I've seen heaps of memes and videos about this as well you know he's got this incredible costume

[01:56:08] and he's got this beautiful elven hair and the back of his hairdo is like this little bow

[01:56:14] yeah tied out of his hair and I saw this little video and it was like Sauron before he starts his

[01:56:20] day of torture and domination and it's like him doing his hair and putting a little tie in it and

[01:56:25] stuff was super cute and then our friend Greg was commenting on this and saying hey sorry to

[01:56:29] disappoint you but he doesn't have to actually do his hair he just snaps his fingers and he

[01:56:33] looks how he wants but and then somebody else was like actually it's a wig if you're gonna go there

[01:56:40] like let's go all the way there he's an actor and he's wearing a wig but um someone puts it on

[01:56:46] floor and while he's sitting having his coffee in the morning and that the tutorial somebody had a

[01:56:51] good tutorial on how to do the bow and it didn't look that difficult now I have curly hair so I'd have

[01:56:58] to first straighten my hair to do it but I'm a little tempted to try it yeah sounds good we'll start

[01:57:04] this new trend and the only other little note I had was um there was a scene with um Nori and Gandalf and

[01:57:13] she says if I had my druthers and I don't know if everyone's would be familiar with that phrase um

[01:57:20] apparently it's actually a United States phrase it's not that common elsewhere um and it evolved

[01:57:27] from a pronunciation of I'd rather so your druthers are the things you'd rather do so I'd rather

[01:57:33] means you're druthers um is that something that you hear a lot Penny or that you're familiar with

[01:57:39] my father used to use that phrase that word a lot but I don't hear it in regular conversation

[01:57:47] that much and I've used it from time to time and had people say what and then I say oh it means I'd

[01:57:55] rather or druther and they and they sort of look at me like I'm insane and then usually when I say

[01:58:01] things that are not common usage in the U.S. somebody will be like oh you lived in Europe and

[01:58:07] then they just assume that it's something from my European time but um yeah uh I yeah my dad said it

[01:58:15] all the time I think it's old-fashioned that's cool I think so I love antiquated language like that

[01:58:21] when it pops up I think it's really cool I think it's a shame when things get lost

[01:58:26] brilliant so much to get into and there is so much more to come so please stay with us

[01:58:31] and we just have one piece of news this week because uh we have a mountain of feedback to get

[01:59:09] through so would you like to start us off with our news of sure it's called the rings of power finale

[01:59:13] charlie vickers on salron's rampage from hollywoodreporter.com and it's a q a format

[01:59:21] congratulations first of all on a wicked season why don't we start by you telling me your initial

[01:59:26] reaction when you read the script for this season finale the thing I was really excited excited by

[01:59:33] was the mind prism thing that's what the showrunners call it and kelebrimbor trying to fight against it

[01:59:39] but in the finale that particular scene where sauron kills kelebrimbor I was really excited to do that

[01:59:45] because it's an iconic tolkien image kelebrimbor's body being full of arrows and then hoisted high

[01:59:51] on a spear both edwards and I when we read it we were just like this is going to be really cool

[01:59:58] I I love that these two are like such buddies in real life all right um we see that sauron is

[02:00:04] emotional in that scene killing kelebrimbor is not easy for him what does that tell us about his character

[02:00:11] it's funny it's one of those things where I did the scene and I wasn't expecting to get emotional

[02:00:15] it's not like it was a planned thing it just happened and then when you talk about it you have

[02:00:21] to go back and try and unpack why and sometimes there is no explanation for these things but in

[02:00:27] thinking about why he might have been feeling like that there's a lot of different things I think you

[02:00:31] do see him kill people in this show and he often kills them quite matter-of-factly let's say

[02:00:36] it's different with kelebrimbor because he has been a partner in crime and someone sauron really

[02:00:42] respects and someone he could have used there's also this huge anger in himself in this moment

[02:00:48] that he's been defeated because kelebrimbor has hidden these rings sauron needs the rings yet

[02:00:54] kelebrimbor wants to die before he tells sauron where the rings are and sauron says there are ways of

[02:01:00] keeping you alive something like that so he clearly wants to torture him until he finds out

[02:01:05] but it's just like the way kelebrimbor tells him that he's now a slave to these creations

[02:01:10] I think it probably hits home for sauron and he loses control and kills him and I think that makes

[02:01:17] him really angry and upset because it's so un-sauron to be out of control it is more interesting to watch

[02:01:23] than him just dispatching everyone and the interviewer goes on we finally see this battle

[02:01:30] with galadriel which had been brewing for a while first things first is sauron in love with

[02:01:35] galadriel he talks about making her his queen and charlie responds I don't think he's in love with

[02:01:40] her in the human sense of the word I bring my humanity to the role that everyone watches it

[02:01:44] through this prism of humanity so you see characters with chemistry and you see there's a romantic thing

[02:01:49] there and that's how we watch things because it's part of our lives I think that's great for people to

[02:01:54] feel this way about the show or about different relationships but I think for sauron in romantic

[02:01:58] love it isn't something he goes around thinking where's my girlfriend at because he's an angel and I

[02:02:03] think that's probably the same for galadriel I don't see it as romantic love I see it as this kind of

[02:02:08] connection that's on another level to anyone else that he's walked past on the street he sees this

[02:02:12] high elf and he's like oh she operates on a similar plane to me where I can connect with her on things

[02:02:17] that I couldn't connect with joe blogs in the corner and the blacksmith but I think it's fun if

[02:02:21] people want to read into whatever they want I quite like that that he says that and that actually goes

[02:02:28] along really well with that one um diagnostic criteria about only being able to associate

[02:02:33] with high or high status beings um that that really is right she's worthy of him there's lots more in

[02:02:39] that article yeah exactly um the article is really long it's quite a long interview there's lots more in

[02:02:45] there about filming the scenes with um charles edwards who played killer brimboar there's a bunch of stuff

[02:02:50] about filming with morford clark who plays galadriel and um also charlie's hopes and thoughts on season

[02:02:55] three so we'll code the link in the show notes but it's a really cool article to go back and have a

[02:02:59] look at um overall and we got heaps of listener feedback this week um including some from from

[02:03:07] new listeners which is always very exciting so would you like to start us off sure this first one is

[02:03:13] from rita cantinella or l who says i've enjoyed the show so much this season and this finale was

[02:03:20] incredible i can't believe how sauron managed to manipulate me as a viewer at one point i felt like

[02:03:27] i was rooting for him which was a tad concerning i think i have a soft spot for an intelligent villain

[02:03:33] who doesn't have to lie in order to get his way charlie vickers knocked it out of the park this season

[02:03:39] and i want to watch everything he's in now i have a few questions if galadriel had fallen into the

[02:03:46] shadow realm would she have become a barrow white also did isildur leave barak behind that boy needs

[02:03:54] his horse thanks rita um so galadriel yeah if she'd fallen into the shadow realm um she wouldn't have

[02:04:03] become a barrow white so barrow whites are um they are creatures from the shadow realm but they are

[02:04:08] specific creatures that are uh inhabit the bones of the the buried kings and the barrow downs but she

[02:04:15] would have probably become a wraith so in a similar way that we see um the kings of men become ring

[02:04:20] wraiths and a similar way that we see um frodo almost becoming a wraith um i believe that's where

[02:04:27] they were kind of going with that and they could see you know you could see that dark wound spreading

[02:04:30] and you could see galad saying we're losing her to the shadow or the shadow realm or the darkness or

[02:04:35] something like that i believe that's where they were going um i don't really know what the precedent is

[02:04:41] for elves doing that you know we know it can happen to men we know it can happen to hobbits but

[02:04:46] i think that's where they were kind of you know they were showing us the danger of that or the implied

[02:04:50] danger of that um and yeah beric was he on the ship i don't we didn't see him he may have been on

[02:04:57] the ship or not i after that comment from kevin i would not have been leaving beric there behind

[02:05:02] to be to be eaten so i really hope he came with him for sure that's awesome thanks reda and we got

[02:05:11] a comment from mark mcburney who says again i loved this episode shame we've got to wait two years for

[02:05:16] the next one calibrin ball using tolkien jesus's own manipulation was some real life reverse psychology

[02:05:21] and wonderfully done tolkien jesus versus scolidrill was choreographed beautifully and the dialogue was

[02:05:27] not wasted wasted i did however really want to see tolkien jesus put on his morgoth crown of thrones

[02:05:32] and i know you all called the stranger being gandalf but for me after two seasons i kind of wish it was

[02:05:38] some someone else now for a surprise hoping to see some real tension build between the elves and dwarves

[02:05:43] next season and all the rings to be worn thanks mark i love that you keep calling him tolkien jesus

[02:05:49] it's just really funny uh claire johnson writes in i love this whole season and the finale

[02:05:57] was outstanding one quibble did gil gallad do his healy elf ring thing off screen to fix arondir

[02:06:05] because he popped back up no worse for wear not that i'm complaining happy face emoji

[02:06:11] he might have that might have happened and we just didn't see it i imagine after

[02:06:17] healed gladriel he just like went around the whole camp and healed everybody who still had injuries

[02:06:23] yeah i think so it's a it's a little bit of a um a lucy with her little vial of um of healing juice

[02:06:30] in the lion the witch in the wardrobe um yeah i think we've covered that i i don't think he was

[02:06:35] mortally wounded and he recovered either just by himself or or from some of that that healing power

[02:06:39] and it's it's very it's a very high chance that there's a lot of scenes that were filmed and then

[02:06:43] just deleted for time so potentially that could be something that was intended and we agree with you

[02:06:49] we're not complaining either as you know and we heard from erica price who says finally the balrog

[02:06:57] what a cool slow motion attack by king duran the score for this entire opening was so stirring

[02:07:01] my heart breaks for prince duran next season we should get lots of dwarf drama they didn't even

[02:07:06] distribute the other rings yet oh now we know elendil has narsil this very long shot showing the

[02:07:12] urdic swarming erigion and the elves fighting back was so well executed i re-watched it several times

[02:07:17] we were wondering how much of calibrin was torture they would show and this is pretty brutal

[02:07:22] just how did galadriel survive that fall helendil is of course leaving just as a stildur is returning

[02:07:28] home how much longer will he not know his son is alive at least another two years wink i love tom's

[02:07:34] hedgehog teapot i really hope we get more of him next season gandalf finally gets his name and star

[02:07:39] i'm guessing it's now safe to assume this other wizard is saruman gulgald's funny little dig at

[02:07:44] galadjil's peaceable company was cute i love this season way better than season one i know we've all

[02:07:49] been thinking our own's hair was nothing extra fine lately i was watching the behind the scenes and

[02:07:53] that's his real hair jealous and i can't leave our art on dear those elves are a plucky bunch i'm so

[02:07:59] glad to have him returning next season don't forget cheeky beric he was positively blushing after

[02:08:04] a stildur's compliment thank you so much for your insightful commentary

[02:08:09] thanks erica that's awesome oh there's a lot to unpack in there um yeah i where what am i looking

[02:08:20] at here i think um alron's hair is amazing i totally agree and i actually saw um the actor

[02:08:28] robert arameo in some interviews where it's even longer so i'm kind of thinking is he growing it out for

[02:08:34] another show or is he growing it out for season three because we might see that transition from

[02:08:39] season one alron hair gets longer and we're moving towards council of alron alron with the long long

[02:08:44] elf here who knows but i've also seen him on the press tour with a crew cut like very very close cut

[02:08:53] hair so uh hmm we'll see they can do a lot with wigs but it's pretty awesome to know that that was his

[02:09:02] real it's beautiful beautiful there yep love that um and also yeah you mentioned we forgot to say

[02:09:10] actually so thanks erica for mentioning it but there was a there was a one shot in that battle in

[02:09:14] the region um they sometimes call it in the industry a one-er so it's basically where you have

[02:09:19] one long continuous shot in the camera without cutting away to a different shot and it was amazing

[02:09:26] i actually looked at it was about 30 seconds which is huge for a battle scene which normally you've got

[02:09:31] maybe two to four seconds maximum per shot and it basically follows the the bomb or firebomb coming

[02:09:38] in and then it follows some elves running around and then one of the elves leaps up onto a kind of

[02:09:43] roof and then he goes along this kind of corridor he jumps off that and then he goes towards his other

[02:09:48] door then the camera turns around um and then it's uh you see galadriel and the other elves come in

[02:09:53] and then you see the orcs attack them and then you see them run off it's a massive long scene and it's

[02:09:57] well worth watching again with that in mind that it was shot in one lot so you think about the setup

[02:10:02] the choreography um and the camera work involved for that it is really incredible i think it's awesome

[02:10:07] yeah and then we had a reply from elma who replied to erica i really don't think that other wizard is

[02:10:15] saruman the reason i say that is because in the fellowship of the rings gandalf leaves the shire

[02:10:19] to set council from his friend colleague saruman at this point gandalf looks up to him but then

[02:10:24] finds out that saruman is evil um yeah we talked about that a little bit um it's either saruman and

[02:10:32] they're going to make some kind of story work that he is a bit evil for now and he's going to come

[02:10:37] good again before he becomes evil i'm about 80 20 that it's not saruman at this point but

[02:10:43] i guess we'll see see what happens we heard from friend of the podcast rima who was our guest for

[02:10:51] episode six when i was not available and she says thank you rings of power for raising the bar making

[02:10:58] i love you sound inadequate next to i would have placed a crown upon your head i would have never

[02:11:05] rested until all middle earth had been brought to its knees to worship the light of its queen

[02:11:10] i've watched that scene too many times to count while repeating the mantra he's so evil he's so evil

[02:11:15] in my head like it's an affirmation what i wouldn't give if galadriel was an i can fix him girly

[02:11:22] during their fight scene when he switched back to hall brand i would have folded like a napkin

[02:11:27] i'm no better than a man the look of pain on galadriel's face as she hesitated with her sword

[02:11:33] was so heartbreaking charlie vickers was perfect he was gaslighting everyone so well leading everyone

[02:11:40] that you feel what he wants you to feel and you could argue if he truly felt any love or affection

[02:11:47] for galadriel but he made you feel as if he did rings of power choosing to give the villain a backstory

[02:11:55] can be dangerous for those of us that love the bad boys sauron in lord of the rings for me was one

[02:12:00] dimensional no doubt the bad guy get rid of him no attachment to him at all in rings of power they

[02:12:06] they cast charlie vickers as sauron they knew what they were doing um so not only is he gorgeous but

[02:12:14] we get a backstory and not just any story but it's about the rings of power sauron in lord of the rings

[02:12:20] he's bad he needs to be defeated but halbrand anatar is given emotional depth and now i'm down bad

[02:12:26] did they have to show him crying he's passionate for what he wants i felt sympathy for him and i

[02:12:33] shouldn't but i do i cannot see him as a fearsome cruel tyrant anymore he is also a man that has

[02:12:39] suffered pain fear and corruption at the hands of morgoth similar vibes as with anakin skywalker am i

[02:12:46] right yeah um yeah but okay yes i know sauron is bad and has thrown all the red flags this is why in

[02:12:56] my opinion charlie vickers deserves an emmy he truly understands the character and is playing him

[02:13:01] masterfully in season two he's gaslighting everyone and truly believes he can bring balance to middle

[02:13:07] earth and heal it he doesn't see himself as the bad guy it's like kelle brimbor told him he deceives

[02:13:13] even himself did you notice every time someone asks if he was sauron he always answered i've had many

[02:13:21] names he despised that name it means quote the abhorred close quotes because he doesn't see himself

[02:13:29] that way his performance was so good i was swooning sauron is the great deceiver and it swept up so many

[02:13:36] of us as we watched each week that you totally buy how everyone around him except a few that fell for it

[02:13:43] when gladriel says before she falls from the cliff heal yourself the best f you get therapy line ever

[02:13:51] reema goes on i still feel sympathy for him though he couldn't break the cycle of trauma from morgoth i think

[02:13:57] in season one he had moments he wanted to and the season two flashback with the old man about choosing

[02:14:02] good every day he was drawn to galadriel and her light was drawn to numenor and its beauty so much

[02:14:08] that he wanted to stay and be what he is a craftsman for nothing is evil in the beginning even sauron was

[02:14:13] not so but his choices kept him on that path and once he chooses it he cannot come back some of the best

[02:14:19] scenes in season two were between anatar and calabrimbor i'm really going to miss those not the gaslighting

[02:14:25] manipulation and torture both actors were such a joy to watch and had amazing chemistry it was such

[02:14:30] an amazing interesting dynamic to see anatar manipulating calabrimbor to make the rings but

[02:14:35] then also admire a fellow craftsman the best elvish craftsman alive in fact then the final scene between

[02:14:42] them was so brilliant calabrimbor speech to him about not being a master of the rings but their prisoner

[02:14:46] so good and anatar's tears were they regret or was it because calabrimbor told him that when he died he

[02:14:52] will return to valinor the place sauron will never be able to return because of the choices he's made

[02:14:57] the rings are beyond your reach as i shall be soon i shall go to the shores of the morning born hence

[02:15:03] by a wind you can never follow i never let you lift your hand it was you just you getting stronger

[02:15:09] forgive me my son king durin r.i.p. king durin the third i loved that storyline this season and my heart

[02:15:15] breaks for prince king durin the fourth but are we just going to ignore the balrog is in their basement no

[02:15:21] one was talking about that at all it sure looked amazing though the budget went hard on this episode

[02:15:26] elindiel and queen miriel sigh elindiel and narsil double sigh it was like a callback to aragon

[02:15:33] needless to say i'm obsessed patiently waiting for season three and while i bide my time i started

[02:15:37] re-watching season one of rings of power and planned a second re-watch this year of the lord

[02:15:41] of the rings trilogy thank you amon and penny for your fantastic coverage yes fun fact my daughter

[02:15:46] and her friends are dressing up as lord of the rings characters for halloween this year she's going as

[02:15:50] arwen i beg to take along as galadriel although i saw a badass sauron cosplay costume recently that

[02:15:56] i would die to wear cheers rima could totally pull it off too i can totally picture her in a sauron

[02:16:03] cosplay outfit yeah and she's got the height as well she would totally yeah she's very tall

[02:16:08] yeah that would look great i love that i love i love your deep dive there into sauron and i loved

[02:16:14] rima that you kind of kept flipping to and fro but he's bad but then i also feel sorry for him but he's

[02:16:19] actually really bad but i still feel sorry that was great um it's such a testament to the writing and

[02:16:25] the acting it really really is yeah um and and i do like that comparison with anakin you know we i was

[02:16:30] talking about this the other day that you know we when we first see darth vader again it's just a very

[02:16:35] one-dimensional bad character and then when you get to see the backstory it is really interesting to see

[02:16:40] this kind of humanity and the steps that someone can take to towards the darkness so that was really

[02:16:46] cool i'm not with you though rima in terms of feeling sorry for him i just don't like i can see

[02:16:51] the steps that he's taken but i don't i i'm i think we've we've had a lot of chats in our group about this

[02:16:57] and i feel very strongly about people who um who have finally chosen darkness and have told you who they

[02:17:05] are and they act that way i'm just like no sorry you're done you can't save him there's no amount

[02:17:10] of love that will save him at this point that's it but yeah i totally agree with you about the

[02:17:15] acting and about how much they um they they really make us feel that for him and uh it's it's the same

[02:17:22] thing that rita was saying earlier that she's actually feeling like what wait how did you get me to

[02:17:27] root for him this is amazing it's pretty incredible we got an email from ra hill who says hey

[02:17:35] friends great cast of the rings episode on episode 7 of rings of power been enjoying your banners and

[02:17:41] debates this season just to clarify the topic of melian as a maya slash valar tolkien didn't really

[02:17:48] distinguish them as two distinct races he describes the mayar as the lesser while the valar literally

[02:17:55] meaning powers are simply the greater spirits ones who partook in the entering the world after its

[02:18:02] creation in letter 212 he says this the valar or powers rulers were the first creation rational

[02:18:11] spirits or minds without incarnation created before the physical world strictly these spirits were called

[02:18:18] aynor the valar being only those from among them who entered the world after its making and the name is

[02:18:26] properly applied only to the great among them who take the imaginative but not the theological place

[02:18:32] of gods and in letter 153 but they are only created spirits of high angelic order we should say with

[02:18:41] their attendant lesser angels of sauron he says in letter 156 so sauron had recourse to guile he submitted

[02:18:50] and was carried off to numenor as a prisoner hostage but he was of course a divine person in the terms of

[02:18:57] this mythology a lesser member of the race of valar and of melian he says in the very beginning of

[02:19:03] chapter 4 of the silmarillion of thingal and melian melian was a maya of the race of the valar so for

[02:19:11] the show to condense this simply to of the valar isn't really wrong at all if we can see in texts that

[02:19:18] these spirits were not really different races thanks for reading i'm very excited for the finale and for

[02:19:23] your discussion afterwards peace so ra has a lot of uh knowledge here this is some deep research thank

[02:19:32] you so much for this yeah thank you this is fantastic so um as as well as all of the the uh

[02:19:38] released books um official books that we have from tolkien there's a bunch of other um backgrounds that

[02:19:43] we get including a whole lot of letters that have been published as well and um i really love that

[02:19:48] you quote um all of the parts that are relevant to this maya versus valar um debate um which has

[02:19:55] really given us a great insight into it and i think that rennie mentioned that um in the coverage for

[02:20:01] episode seven that uh i understand that potentially maya does not um appear in the lord of the rings or the

[02:20:10] indices so there might be a rights issue in terms of using that word um and as you say here in your

[02:20:17] email um it's almost that they're not really separate races it's almost like the maya are kind of a subset

[02:20:22] of the valar so you can be a maya and a valar um so i guess one of the reasons for them describing

[02:20:28] malian as a as a valar here when they're talking about uh i think it's when adar is talking to

[02:20:34] alrond about how he can see malian in him um it's not wrong it's just that's the words that they had to

[02:20:40] choose to to get that across um potentially from a rights issue or just because we've heard the name

[02:20:45] valar lots but they haven't had the chance to bring up the name maya and what that means and if you

[02:20:50] don't know the deep law then it's going to be going over you here so that is awesome thank you so much

[02:20:54] for your email i really appreciate it we also got an email from michael michael says hello this is my

[02:21:00] favorite rings of power podcast i know this says more about me than you but i wish you dropped the

[02:21:05] podcast sooner after the episodes waiting four or five days to listen to your wonderful insights is

[02:21:10] unique to podcast kit it's the only pod that doesn't drop within 24 hours after the episode

[02:21:14] i feel like sauron annatar checking in on calibrin war on the status of the nine rings opening up spotify

[02:21:20] every few hours to see if it dropped perhaps i need to bewitch you all into a spellbound time

[02:21:25] loop while you create podcasts specifically for me i'm just i'm just impatient do you record days after

[02:21:31] you for your own time constraint related reasons if so i respect that or does podcast

[02:21:36] tickets sit on the pod episodes for a few days before they release for a strategic reason

[02:21:40] nevertheless thank you for going so deep into this content and enriching the show experience as much

[02:21:45] as you do wonderful stuff hopefully we get season three quicker than we get season two cheers to the

[02:21:50] upcoming finale of this delightful season go towards goodness mike oh thank you so much michael i really

[02:21:56] appreciate that um and it's a really good question and i know for myself being a fan of a lot of

[02:22:01] podcasts um i feel exactly the same as you i'm refreshing my feed all the time to see if it's

[02:22:07] dropped and um yes it is it is purely a um a scheduling issue for us so for we live in two different time

[02:22:15] zones i'm in new zealand and um penny is in the east coast of the united states so um the only time that

[02:22:22] we are both awake and not at work is in the weekend the podcast oh sorry the episode drops for me here in

[02:22:30] new zealand on thursday night um and we don't have a chance to record until either the saturday or the

[02:22:36] sunday morning here um new zealand time so it is a couple of days late and then by the time you've

[02:22:41] got editing and um and releasing it does appear on your feed later we have been lucky enough to get the

[02:22:47] episode sent to us ahead of time by amazon thank you so much amazon and we hope that it happens again

[02:22:52] for next season this was really helpful in order to get those first few episodes out really quickly so

[02:23:00] and get those done uh and yeah it's it is it is an issue we've had sometimes where i thought well maybe

[02:23:06] we can try and squeeze it in earlier but the other reason is that we do want to make sure we've had time

[02:23:11] to get our thoughts together and for people to send their feedback in as well and to make sure that

[02:23:15] we're nice and prepped for it so it's just a little treat that you have to wait for but thank you for

[02:23:19] your question i'm sure there probably been other people who have have thought the same thing as well

[02:23:23] all right we also had a bunch of voicemails would you like to start us off with those penny sure

[02:23:32] hi everyone it's sam my voice is a little orcish right now from so much joy and fun at the zed head

[02:23:42] meetup i really really really loved this episode um i it it was just fantastic and had everything

[02:23:53] i wanted and more i know that i picked penny's brain forever over the episode and and and when

[02:24:03] you'd be so proud of penny like holding it down for the rings of power she answered all of our very

[02:24:10] many questions and it was highly highly appreciated um she's just such an awesome person and i yeah this

[02:24:20] episode was just so awesome um i'm super excited to see where it goes we all know at our how to go and

[02:24:29] man was he a great character i think when i think about like the mvps of characters i didn't know i

[02:24:36] wanted i think he definitely ranks up there um just a really tragic character and um yeah i i know a lot

[02:24:46] of fans are wondering if we'll hear more about him and i know he was creative for the show so that's okay

[02:24:52] with me that um we just kind of put it all together uh yeah i just thought everything was so good and

[02:24:59] sad at the same time i mean charlie vickers just bravo i mean creating a character as nuanced as he did

[02:25:10] i never expected to be drawn to sour on as a character i mean we kind of joke about it fans are like who can fix

[02:25:20] him and it's fine for a fictional character obviously in real life we would all run the opposite direction

[02:25:29] safely behind a tv screen knowing that he's actually a delightful person in real life the actor and this is

[02:25:35] just a performance i think it allows us to exercise that idea of the path that we would not take

[02:25:43] and i think sauron's such a great example of that creationism almost of like you know he he reflects

[02:25:50] the darkness in all of us and also the tragedy um he he was a good character until he wasn't um and became

[02:26:00] sauron so i just find it so fascinating to see his his determination that he's right and then also this doubt

[02:26:07] that comes with it of he himself is not perfect as as we saw when he killed uh kelebrimbor and you know

[02:26:16] he obviously that was an impulse and he himself is not this perfection that he wants to attain

[02:26:21] so i just i'm fascinated to see where they go with all of this um and and how they finally get to

[02:26:28] more of a weakness for him because he's kind of terrifying right now there is no way to really

[02:26:34] kill him without that crown that he has um so yeah i'm super excited i keep thinking of just the

[02:26:42] phenomenal death of king duran and just king gil galad saying like he was so excited um so i'm just super

[02:26:53] pumped for the next season and i can't wait to see where they all go with this um i did have a quick

[02:26:59] question i've been poking poor benny's brain about this i do know that when the elves die they goes to

[02:27:05] the they go to the halls of valar um do when they're reincarnated if the valar reincarnate them

[02:27:12] are they like in human form or like little baby elf form and is it the same form or do they take on a

[02:27:17] different beings form so that was just all of the stuff in my brain it kind of softens the edges of

[02:27:24] the elves deaths because like they're gonna be reborn and it's fine because they all live forever

[02:27:29] so thank you so much for this podcast i i know it's a huge labor of love for you guys and it's been

[02:27:34] truly phenomenal i would not love the show nearly as much without having you guys there so thank you

[02:27:41] thank you thank you thank you thank you i adore it i look forward to it and yeah i can see you guys in

[02:27:47] two years thanks so much sam that was brilliant uh your question about the elves yeah so they they go to

[02:27:54] the halls of mandos and they stay there for a indeterminate time um they're basically judged and if they're

[02:28:00] deemed worthy they can be reincarnated they are reincarnated as elves um often but not always in the same

[02:28:07] body as before and it's not clear whether they start from the beginning as baby elf or whether

[02:28:11] they just get straight back into their grown-up elf form it's all a little bit vague so um i think

[02:28:16] leave that to your own imagination about what happens with them um i i love what you said about

[02:28:21] gilgala that moment where he goes dwarves was just classic loved it so great so sam alluded to the fact

[02:28:29] that we had last weekend a zed head meetup zed heads is the name for the patreon group that uh is part of

[02:28:38] podcastica if you want to become a member of the patreon group we have a lot of fun together there's all

[02:28:45] kinds of activities that happen in addition to in-person meetups that happen about once a year

[02:28:53] there's also game nights and special call-in shows there's exclusive content that you can get

[02:28:59] and there's a link in the show notes for how to join the patreon group if you're interested we

[02:29:05] really do have a good time together it's well worth the very small investment to become a member

[02:29:10] yeah it's fantastic and i think a lot of the feedback we've had from people is that

[02:29:16] if you don't have anybody else to geek out with in your life and this is one of the reasons why you

[02:29:21] spend time with us each week listening to the podcast um we all have so much in common in terms of

[02:29:27] the shows that we watch and that we love um and then you know we get to know each other really well

[02:29:31] as people and and you know find out about each other and spend that time together which is so much

[02:29:36] fun so highly recommend if you're looking for a really fun and caring community to be part of as well

[02:29:42] yeah sam and i had a hour and 15 minute uber ride together and basically the entire ride was rings of

[02:29:50] power talk and she did pepper me with questions and i was like i've been doing a really good job

[02:29:55] listening to anwin i'm so proud of myself that's awesome next time that happens just facetime me and

[02:30:00] i'll join in but it'd be great i was probably asleep yeah it was definitely during your nighttime

[02:30:06] that's great all right our next voicemail is from taylor hey guys so i am a new listener to your podcast

[02:30:17] i discovered it just a few weeks ago i've listened to three episodes now and i've got to say you guys do a

[02:30:24] great job penny and anwin the insight you guys give is just makes it more immersive and this show uh

[02:30:31] it just makes the lord of the rings experience and journey so awesome and um i'm so glad i discovered

[02:30:38] this podcast but i'm gonna try to crank through this as quick as i can there's a lot to unpack and i'm

[02:30:42] anxious to hear what you guys think but this episode wow did they really have to cram a lot in

[02:30:48] and they did uh to answer some questions and so um i don't know how i'm gonna wait two years i know

[02:30:54] we're all thinking the same thing but just a few notes i'm gonna try to hit them within the time i

[02:30:59] have but um king duran started off like epic his death scene was epic the only thing that i would say

[02:31:06] like against that was i wish that he would have sealed the cave off himself before running off into

[02:31:13] the balrog because everybody knew he was gonna die um but it would have been neat to see him seal

[02:31:18] the cave save his son and you know i am curious um you know what happens to prince duran with the

[02:31:26] rings does he you know what does he do with the ring and um with the king with king duran did he have

[02:31:32] a realization you know in the moment or was it about rescuing the ring did the ring want to be saved

[02:31:39] and so that's why he took it off or was there something you know and i'd be anxious to hear what

[02:31:44] you guys think about that what what realization did he have in that moment to take the ring off

[02:31:48] um and then go sacrifice himself or did the ring influence that uh gandalf getting his staff was

[02:31:55] super cool i've been waiting for that it's been building up um i wish there was a little more to it

[02:32:00] than just a foot bump on a stick and then he picks it up but hey we got the staff i'm ready to roll with

[02:32:06] it what's next for nori that would be my second question um and saruman is this is this a dark

[02:32:14] saruman that maybe he dies and gets resurrected into a saruman the white i don't know but that's

[02:32:20] kind of where i'm thinking it's going um numenor the fall is just billowing and ready to burst holy cow

[02:32:27] i'm here for it um elendil sword look we all know whose sword that is um and i'm excited to see

[02:32:37] what he does with it and where that goes heck yes uh kelle brimbor epic death speech i've listened to

[02:32:44] it countless times his dying words are just they hit me in the chest and how scary is sauron like

[02:32:52] oh my gosh that scene i could watch it over and over um at our one of my favorite scenes in the

[02:32:57] episode it was beautiful the alliance was just stripped away by glug and the betrayal was poetic

[02:33:04] because it's the same thing that happened to sauron so like wow what a full circle gladriel uh

[02:33:12] sauron's final attempt to deceive her and bring her in failed is this going to be a version of her we see

[02:33:19] coming up that's the less commander version and more the ethereal version from lord of the rings um

[02:33:25] and do we get a dark is this how gladriel kind of is a little darker in lord of the rings you know

[02:33:31] that stab to the chest and the crown is that a connection to just to sauron and morgoth and

[02:33:37] does that kind of give her that dark that darkness deep inside that we've seen in lord of the rings

[02:33:42] that she taps into so where does she go from here and do we see the rise of rivendell i think you know

[02:33:50] i think they're kind of alluding to that a little bit so yeah i mean i guess the main questions are uh

[02:33:55] what happens you know with gladriel uh king durin and his sacrifice and what happens with uh his son

[02:34:02] durin and then saruman you know is you know that and then nori so i know that's a lot but i got a lot

[02:34:10] of things i need to know so help me out guys i wish i was there hashing this stuff out with you uh for

[02:34:16] two hours um but hey cheers have a good one oh that's awesome thank you so much taylor i love your

[02:34:24] insights i think we had similar thoughts on galadriel and about the darkness and how it

[02:34:29] maybe affects her later on that was really cool um yeah saruman i think we covered that too

[02:34:35] not sure is it him isn't it i guess we'll see with that one um i really love what you said about durin

[02:34:41] and was it really him taking the ring off or was it a self-preservation of the ring trying not to be

[02:34:47] destroyed um i love that thank you for that point yeah i didn't think of that at all and it's no

[02:34:53] now it's all i'm going to be thinking about yeah but i think i think that even if it was and it was

[02:34:58] the ring trying to preserve itself just as we've seen before with the one ring sometimes it abandons its

[02:35:03] wearer so that it can be saved or go to the next one even if it was after he'd taken it off and he'd

[02:35:08] put it on the rock what he does to sacrifice himself to save his son and the words that he says to his

[02:35:15] son he's saying that without the ring's influence he's no longer wearing it anymore and he is there

[02:35:19] saying it was never you um it was never me letting you win it was you growing stronger and he

[02:35:25] acknowledges like you said penny acknowledges the strength of his son um so so even if it was the ring

[02:35:30] that did that i think it still does as not a poor reflection on durian at all i think he redeemed

[02:35:36] himself and came back around to being the good king that we know he is so that was really beautiful um

[02:35:42] that was cool well what do you think is going to be next for nori it seems to me that she's going to

[02:35:49] lead the stores back to where she started and join together with the harfoots and maybe she's about to

[02:35:59] found the shire yeah i think that's where they're going season wide i think that it might not be until

[02:36:07] later but then again it also depends on um what they're going to do we've talked a lot before about

[02:36:14] they've been condensing this time period is a by about a couple of thousand years really between

[02:36:19] the rings being forged and what happens later with um isildur and elendil so they're condensing that

[02:36:26] timeline but they will still have to have some sort of time jump i think at some point because all of

[02:36:32] that stuff happens later in the lives of those two characters so when we see elendil and um isildur

[02:36:37] um taking on sauron later you know we've all most of us have seen all of the rings we know that

[02:36:42] happens um that is has to be a bit later it can't be the next year they've already founded kingdoms and

[02:36:51] built cities they have they have and they've already had you know seildur's had children and you know

[02:36:56] that it's it's got to be minimum 10 years but probably 20 that that we have to sort of see and so i

[02:37:03] don't know how that will affect what we see with the harfoots we do know that hobbits live for

[02:37:08] you know bilbo was was one of the older ones he was 110 but they they've got a fairly similar to

[02:37:14] human lifespan maybe 90 years old or so so i don't know how much they're going to be able to do a jump

[02:37:20] with them but i think we are eventually seeing going to see the founding of the shire there's also a

[02:37:25] third um strand of um of pre hobbits called the fallow hides and so i wonder whether we're going to

[02:37:32] meet them as well because we have the harfoots in the first season the stores in the second season

[02:37:37] and i think it'd be quite cool if we got to see the fallow hides as well and then they all

[02:37:40] team up and then go off and become hobbits so yeah that's going to be quite cool to see

[02:37:47] and yeah get them out of the east and back doing something else different so that'll be great thank

[02:37:51] you so much taylor really enjoyed your voicemail and i do hope that you call back again um really enjoyed

[02:37:56] your insights yeah thanks for finding us we have a voicemail from hello ladies this is denise

[02:38:03] offering some feedback on the season two finale of reeds of power first off i want to say i appreciate

[02:38:08] your thoughts from last week as to where you think the series will end fantastic finale this is how

[02:38:14] finale should be shout out to hkgg aka daddy king because man he did look like a daddy in his armor

[02:38:22] this season has me thinking amazon should have led with morgoth because this show spurs people to learn

[02:38:28] more about the first age when you have nuggets like the scene of annatar holding faenor's hammer which is

[02:38:33] such a powerful callback i also absolutely love the way the episode kept rounding the story arc bases

[02:38:39] in order to wrap things up nice and tidy let's talk numenor it's unfortunate that they're spending so much

[02:38:45] time on the seal door because aside from the one other event involving the fall of numenor he just doesn't

[02:38:51] matter in rings of power it really is about ellen deal i am also not a fan of the show making muriel blind

[02:38:57] i like how she was a warrior queen in season one but then making her blind is just sidelined her

[02:39:04] this episode is starting to show how varis farazan is starting to make his moves the one issue i have

[02:39:11] with the show is that it really hasn't clearly delineated why farazan is doing what he's doing against

[02:39:18] the faithful he articulated it briefly but i don't think viewers understand it is literally the driving

[02:39:24] force for everything he does kelle brimbor we know that kelle brimbor's death scene was coming but man

[02:39:30] annatar made us feel it the way he ran kelle brimbor through with that steel pike and then ran his body

[02:39:37] up the column and then stuck him there made me grab my chest that's true evil people and there's still more

[02:39:43] come from annatar adar betrayed so did not see that coming you should have heard the gas that came out

[02:39:50] of my mouth on that one and the way annatar gained his retribution against adar that was karmic betrayal

[02:39:56] and from adar's own son no less galadriel and annatar squaring up that was visceral the way annatar drove

[02:40:04] the crown and galadriel's chest and then dragged her across that rock all the while still trying to convince

[02:40:10] her to join him was crazy and by the way that area looks like the same area where galadriel gandalf

[02:40:17] saruman and elrond all met to discuss saruman in the hobbit movies um we found out that the wanderer

[02:40:24] is gandalf so that's settled looks like amazon finally scored the rights and with that i assume the dark

[02:40:28] wizard is saruman erandir is alive that's all that matters and the fact he's now part of the uh fab four

[02:40:36] life is good and finally pour one out for king duran that shot of him leaping out towards the balrog

[02:40:42] as the rocks collapsed behind them that was just epic he went out like a boss this was a fantastic

[02:40:49] finale and i look forward to hearing everyone's thoughts on it um have a good day that's awesome

[02:40:55] thank you denise um yeah pharazon's reasons for being against the faithful so we kind of saw a

[02:41:03] little bit of that in his conversation with keaman earlier on in the season when he's talking about

[02:41:08] the first glimmers of him wanting to seek immortality so he he basically wants to rest power

[02:41:15] but there's been a um i agree with you denise i think if you don't know the background it could be

[02:41:21] a little confusing but from my perspective um there's a lot of background in new menore where they went

[02:41:26] to and fro between supporting the old ways and the vala and then not supporting them so various kings

[02:41:31] along the way have have been on one side or the other and basically it was already a little bit

[02:41:37] marginalized in terms of um the king ta palantir being um being locked away for his beliefs and and

[02:41:43] people moving away gradually from the old ways and i think he's just taken it that one step further

[02:41:50] and um and that's his way of gaining power basically is to kind of marginalize that even

[02:41:54] further and make it become treason so i think that's what we're seeing there any other thoughts about that

[02:42:03] one penny um i don't know if it's safe to assume that the dark wizard is saruman but um we've talked

[02:42:11] about that a lot yeah that's great thank you denise thank you our next voicemail is from hugh i love the

[02:42:24] name hugh okay hello penny and when my name is hugh my first time uh ever communicating with you guys i

[02:42:33] just recently found your podcast and thoroughly enjoy it so the season finale what stuck out to me most

[02:42:41] was terrible editing uh erin dears there had to have been a healing scene they cut otherwise it's absurd

[02:42:48] and there had to be a scene where soon to be discovered gandalf is making the decision whether

[02:42:57] or not to uh go after the staffs in that valley there had to be a scene there uh instead all of a

[02:43:04] sudden he just appears with the hobbits anyway um lots of bad editing it was too bad a problem and that's it

[02:43:12] all right i agree i did have in my notes oh so suddenly he's just at the store settlement all

[02:43:20] right like it it was a little abrupt yeah and i think i think some of it just really is timing i

[02:43:27] think i think that they made some choices i think the the actual edit itself in terms of um what we see

[02:43:34] in each scene i think has done well but i think it's a storyline perspective that you mean hugh like

[02:43:39] they have missed some stuff out they've made some editing choices of of deleting some scenes because

[02:43:45] i do believe that there was probably some stuff there filmed the same with that on dear being

[02:43:49] healed as well that they just for time reasons had to had to pull out and i i think no no if you

[02:43:54] want to be kind you could say maybe it's just the showrunners giving us the credit that we know that this

[02:43:59] other thing happened but i agree that it can be sometimes dissatisfying when you didn't get to see

[02:44:04] that but you kind of suddenly go hey what wait they're just here now all of a sudden

[02:44:08] yeah it's a little awkward i'm hoping that in the tradition of the peter jackson films there will be

[02:44:15] extended editions at some point released that will be twice as long and we'll get all kinds of great

[02:44:21] deleted scenes that would be great because there's so much content that i'm sure that there'll be a lot

[02:44:26] in there um and thanks for finding us here we love hearing from new listeners and thank you so much

[02:44:30] for calling in we really appreciate it we also got a voicemail from alma and alma was also at the zed

[02:44:39] head meetup and uh asked me a lot of questions and uh she said maybe this time i'll send in a voicemail

[02:44:45] and i encouraged her too so i'm very excited that she did good work hi everyone this is alma i was just

[02:44:55] doing my calling for the finale of the rings of power um first off i just can't believe it's over

[02:45:05] and wow what an amazing season it has been it had everything i could possibly want from a series and um

[02:45:17] and so many emotional moments um the first the first thing is the balrog oh my goodness the scene that first scene

[02:45:33] was so amazing and what a way to go if i was king duran

[02:45:41] there would be no other way to go that was just epic and and of course yes very um emotional i did cry

[02:45:49] during that part and um let's see what else it just looks fantastic um

[02:45:57] now the next part is oh i had a question so

[02:46:03] uh the ring the king was wearing he took it off and just left it so i'm assuming it just stays

[02:46:14] um gone or does duran actually pick it up i don't know i guess that's probably a spoiler question

[02:46:23] um but i don't know i i was kind of i was left with that question oh so what's gonna happen with the ring

[02:46:30] so we move on uh let's see i can't remember the order i've watched i watched the episode i don't know a few times

[02:46:41] and um but i'm forgetting um so we see elindor is leaving

[02:46:50] uh dumindor i can't wait for that next season i i can't wait to

[02:46:55] have him come out and reunite with isildur and um hopefully we see that in motion and um

[02:47:07] the only thing that i'm kind of a little disappointed was in is that isildur didn't really

[02:47:16] have too many scenes this season and um so his story i'm assuming his story is going to get better

[02:47:23] next season um but yeah i was that was the only thing and um and how about that that um

[02:47:32] i forget his name uh farazar's son oh i just want to choke him i couldn't believe he had said something

[02:47:40] about killing poor little barrick the the heroic horse oh i wanted to kill him but anyways moving on

[02:47:50] let's see what other cool part oh i know adar is a villain but his demise just seemed so cruel i felt so

[02:48:03] bad and i kept i felt bad for him and um i got a little emotional about it but it just seemed like he

[02:48:12] wasn't quite as evil as obviously sauron and of course that brings me to sauron

[02:48:20] i just love that villain i love him i don't know i i spoke to penny a little bit about it and i i

[02:48:30] just can't put my finger on it it just it's like it's the villain you love to hate and hate to love i

[02:48:36] don't know but um let's see what else um there's so many things and i know this message is getting

[02:48:44] long so i'll probably um just cut it off here there was just oh oh the grand elf

[02:48:53] well we found out that the stranger is indeed who we thought he was oh well who we hoped he was

[02:49:02] gandalf and i thought that that was cute how everybody was calling him the grand elf and he just

[02:49:09] made it into gandalf which is just so perfect anyways i look forward to hearing to the cast and um

[02:49:16] getting a little bit more of um galadriel's mirror um until next time see you guys thanks alma

[02:49:27] that was great i loved it that was like revisiting the whole episode again just through your voicemail

[02:49:32] i think you might have to have a um a debate with denise um about the merits of a seal door because it

[02:49:37] sounds like you love him and denise is not such a fan

[02:49:42] i hope he does have at least something more interesting going on next season i think that

[02:49:47] maxim baldry the actor uh is is very talented and i'd like to see him have something more interesting

[02:49:54] to do i i just don't want estrid to be a part of it yeah i don't know where they're going to go with

[02:50:00] that um because as i said he he has to get married and he has some kids so it's got to come up soon i

[02:50:06] just don't know whether it's going to be her or not i don't think it matters too much i'm not too

[02:50:09] bothered by it i'm more interested in the stuff that he does that has to do with um plot i'm not

[02:50:15] going to go into it spoiler stuff um and alma stay tuned for galadriel's mirror i think that

[02:50:22] we're going to address some of your questions yeah we'll talk about the about duran's ring there

[02:50:27] and uh i think i might throw in some of sealed or as well since that's been brought up a couple of

[02:50:31] times as well so that's all good perfect all right we have two voicemails from renee and i'll play the

[02:50:41] first one here hi ladies this is renee calling in about the rings of power the finale you guys were

[02:50:48] absolutely correct adenar he lived i'm not sure if i pronounced his name right but the cute elf

[02:50:55] i'm so happy to see that he lived and penny you said on last week that this show has a lot of

[02:51:03] beautiful scenery the cinematography is beautiful the wardrobe is beautiful the hair is beautiful but this

[02:51:10] show can be very barbaric and it truly was when they showed saran torturing celebrant bar

[02:51:18] that was really sad and like you said penny he celebrant bar i mean i'm sorry saran is

[02:51:25] a narcissist he is the definition if you look up narcissist in the dictionary i'm sure his name is by it

[02:51:31] because he's going to tell celebrant bar look what you did to yourself it's like sir you're psycho

[02:51:37] you're sick in the head because like how dare you but celebrant bar he went out the way that he wanted

[02:51:44] to go out you know because sir ron was going to continue to torture him and he made sure he didn't

[02:51:51] by telling him that you're the lord of the rings so he went out like a gangster like a straight g

[02:51:58] and the adar adar i said last week that i wasn't going to have any sympathy for him but i did it was

[02:52:06] that was sad that they murdered their father like that because clearly he loved them because when they

[02:52:11] show him as a regular elf he was handsome and he wanted to save his kids he really he felt like those

[02:52:18] were his children and they betrayed him and they're going to regret it because saran does not care about

[02:52:25] them all at all he just wants to use them and they should have seen that because they killed the

[02:52:32] head orc in charge he killed the head orc in charge but i knew he was going to die because

[02:52:37] it's like sir you betrayed your father so saran know that you would not have a problem betraying him

[02:52:45] so they should know i mean i mean i hate that they did that that was sad not the orcs i don't care

[02:52:51] about the orcs but adar i did care about and the dwarves definitely sad and deesa whoever did her

[02:52:59] bust down they laid that that bust down was laid to the gods when i say laid whatever it was the

[02:53:05] quick we were sewing or whatever they laid it it was beautiful it was absolutely gorgeous she looked so

[02:53:12] regal she really did and i'm gonna miss you guys i am and after all of my other shows go off i'm

[02:53:21] gonna go back and i'm gonna do a re-watch and i'm gonna really study it and when we come back in two

[02:53:26] years hopefully not two years but i'm sure it's gonna be two years i'm going to be able to pronounce

[02:53:31] those names to the t and you guys are going to be so proud of me all righty i will talk to you guys

[02:53:36] later peace and love thanks renee i love your accent renee mentioned in a voicemail i think on walking dead cast

[02:53:44] or um the cast of us that she is of gulla heritage and i am so fascinated and i want to just have

[02:53:52] like a whole long conversation with her about it the gulla are a group of people that lived

[02:53:59] or still live um off the carolina coast and they have a really beautiful culture there's an amazing

[02:54:07] episode of united shades of america all about the gulla culture and that's how i learned about them and

[02:54:13] i recommend it and i really renee sometime we're gonna just have to schedule a sit down

[02:54:17] oh that sounds amazing i've never even heard of that culture before thank you i'll have to look

[02:54:23] into that and we always love hearing from you renee thank you so much she has so much to say

[02:54:27] so she sent in a second voicemail and the email just says i forgot to talk about gandalf so hi ladies

[02:54:35] i am so sorry i totally forgot to mention grand elf you guys were absolutely correct you're always

[02:54:42] correct gandalf is the grand elf and i like how they just turned grand elf into gandalf i think that

[02:54:48] is super cute they ran it all together like how i run my words together when i get to talking all fast

[02:54:55] so i just had to call back and say that all right i'll talk to you guys in two years hopefully not

[02:54:59] but i'm pretty sure it is all right peace and love bye thanks jenna yeah i i think it is going to be

[02:55:05] two years but we're we're going to hopefully not be that long we'll we'll get keep some content coming

[02:55:09] out there um i also loved what you said about disa's hair just magnificent yeah it was so beautifully

[02:55:15] beautifully done and they've given her a lot of variety with her hair in terms of those kind of

[02:55:20] updos and weaves and then with the long hair falling down her back as well and yeah just she is such

[02:55:26] a queen yeah all of the styling around disa has been phenomenal i love her makeup i love when she had

[02:55:33] those little jewels on her forehead i love the way she has gold dust like embedded into her fingers

[02:55:39] and her skin uh her wardrobe i just love disa so much yeah and the way her eyes glow especially when

[02:55:46] she's really passionate about something they kind of like glow like fire yeah she's great we need to

[02:55:50] just we need more of her yeah i was i seriously was worried for her in this season i thought they

[02:55:56] were going to take her out especially with the you know when she was down in the in the mines

[02:56:00] with the um with other dwarves and when disa when durin was hearing about her and then

[02:56:05] right at the end when they kissed and i thought oh no it's all over but no she's just way too much

[02:56:09] i remember the very first image that we saw of her and both you and i said oh she's going to be a

[02:56:13] fan favorite she is just amazing it's really she's wonderful yeah well thank you so much everybody for

[02:56:20] all your messages we really love hearing from you and um please if you haven't written us a message or

[02:56:26] you're still getting your thoughts together we'd we'd still love to hear from you we are going to be

[02:56:31] um doing a season two wrap up so we'd still love some more feedback if you've got thoughts in general

[02:56:36] on the season as a whole or on the first two seasons i do know that some people have gone back

[02:56:41] and and done a re-watch um already of the first season or about to um i i actually have started

[02:56:46] a re-watch with my kids which has been really cool and when when you've seen season two and you go back

[02:56:52] to season one there's a lot to pick up in there in terms of the character development and little treats

[02:56:56] so it's well worth doing and i think a lot of people will be doing that so please send in some

[02:57:01] feedback and if you do want to write in or leave us a message you can find all of our contact information

[02:57:06] at podcastica.com and while you're at podcastica.com you can check out some of the other podcasts

[02:57:14] you know we we assume that rings of power isn't coming back for probably two years but there's tons

[02:57:20] of other podcasts to listen to if you like me right now i'm also podcasting about the marvel show agatha

[02:57:28] all along on the marvel tv cast for podcastica and that show and this show have some kind of funny

[02:57:35] overlaps because that show is also about the pursuit of power and how power corrupts and it's been really

[02:57:44] interesting working on both shows at the same time i've really been having a good time with that

[02:57:50] yeah you guys are smashing it over there it's a really awesome podcast to listen to and to be honest

[02:57:55] i was completely lost by that first episode and your podcast helped me so much so i highly recommend it

[02:58:02] thank you so much and then there's so much other great content at podcastica there's right now

[02:58:08] strange indeed is covering the great british bake-off which is a little bit of a genre departure for

[02:58:14] them because they usually do these really dark and twisty shows and they're having a great time with

[02:58:18] it there's a brand new sports podcast i haven't even listened to it yet called sports castica and

[02:58:24] i've heard great things about it i'm not really that into sports but i'm very interested in what they're

[02:58:29] doing and uh from is in full swing the daryl dixon show is in full swing there's just so much to listen

[02:58:37] to yeah there's a it's a busy month for podcaster shows and then we've got quite a few more coming

[02:58:43] up over the next few months as well so heaps to delve into there and lots of um of older shows

[02:58:48] that you can listen to the coverage of as well um i believe yellow jackets is coming back and you can

[02:58:53] go back and listen to their previous seasons um you've got the handmaid's tale and heaps of other

[02:58:59] interesting and quite often dark shows to look into but a bit of variety for everyone so so go ahead and

[02:59:05] check those out oh and we'll be back for war of the rohiram that comes out i believe in december so

[02:59:11] anwin and i will be back for that definitely yep so lots of things coming up and for now what we're

[02:59:17] going to do is uh take a little bit of a dive into galadriel's mirror a few little bits to talk about

[02:59:24] this week because um there was some things that obviously deep law that's going to be covered and

[02:59:29] also speculation about what might happen in the future season so if you don't mind spoilers um please

[02:59:35] stay with us otherwise we will see you soon will you look into the mirror what will i see

[02:59:44] things that were things that are

[02:59:50] and some things that have not yet come to pass so lots of things did get tied up this this uh season

[02:59:58] finale and we did get a chance to actually bring some of the things out of the mirror and into the main

[03:00:03] podcast so we talked about caliber and war and a bunch of other stuff there but there's a few

[03:00:07] things that i did want to mention here especially given some of the questions that we had in the

[03:00:11] listener feedback so i'm going to start with the fate of durin's ring so in this episode we saw

[03:00:18] king durin take the the dwarven ring off and place it on the the rock next to him and then he got

[03:00:24] um he basically attacked the balrog the balrog flicked his whip all of the rock fall came down and it

[03:00:31] looked looked looked like the the ring was trapped there so we kind of want to know what's going

[03:00:35] to happen with the ring so durin's ring was the first of the seven dwarf rings to be forged um

[03:00:41] and it was the last to be recovered by sauron so sauron got most of them back but this was the last one

[03:00:47] became known as the ring of thror so this ring initially was given to king durin by calibrin

[03:00:53] war and it actually remained in his house um for thousands of years so it's not lost that's the first

[03:01:01] thing it's not lost for good in that cave they're going to get it back somehow so the kings of durin's

[03:01:06] folk uh they proved resistant to the magic of of the rings um we've talked about that before dwarves are

[03:01:12] quite hard to tame and you can't really influence them or change them that much um but the rings

[03:01:18] basically amplified the wearer's kind of natural skills um which made them more greedy than they

[03:01:23] were before and it made them exceedingly rich so much much later we see in the hobbit um the king

[03:01:29] under the mountain thror so he's he's an elven king i'm sorry a dwarven king um he's basically has the

[03:01:35] ring and um smalg descended on the lonely mountain and drove the dwarves off into exile and after this

[03:01:42] kingdom was destroyed by smalg um thror passed the ring to his son thrain thrain later on set out to

[03:01:49] regain this kingdom um but he was captured by the spires of sauron and sauron took the ring of thror by

[03:01:56] force in the dungeons of dolgodur so that's how sauron got the ring back but a lot of the dwarves

[03:02:02] didn't actually know what had happened to it and they thought that it was still in moria they thought

[03:02:06] it was lost there when thror was killed um so that was one of the reasons that balin wanted to

[03:02:12] reclaim moria um and the hobbit and at the council of elrond gandalf actually told glowing that balin

[03:02:18] would not find the ring in moria because it was given to thrain so gandalf actually knew the real

[03:02:23] story he knew that it was taken off and by sauron later on so yep we will see that ring again i'm sure

[03:02:28] but um it doesn't get into sauron's hands for a very long time so it stays with the dwarves for a while

[03:02:35] so there you go there's the dwarven ring uh we also have narsil which i was excited to see and yeah

[03:02:44] we talked a little bit about the origins of narsil but most of us will know if we've seen the lord of

[03:02:49] the rings or we've read the books what importance that this sword is going to have later on so this is

[03:02:57] the very same sword that elindiel carries into the battle of the last alliance and this is the sword that

[03:03:02] um that is used basically to to defeat sauron for a time so sauron kills elindiel and breaks his sword

[03:03:12] narsil into two pieces underneath him and the light of narsil was extinguished at that time

[03:03:18] isildur took up the sword and he used its shard to cut the one ring from sauron's hand

[03:03:24] and then he took the shards of narsil back home with him and these shards were then taken by

[03:03:30] isildur's squire to rivendell and elrond foretold that it would be reforged one day to make into a

[03:03:37] new sword but it wouldn't be reforged until the one ring was found again and sauron returned and

[03:03:43] the shards then became one of the heirlooms of the kings of anor and later on the ranges of the north so

[03:03:49] the heirs of isildur this is one of the heirlooms and we do see it in the movies you see it there where

[03:03:54] there's a scene with aragorn and bottom here when they're walking through those shadowy halls of

[03:03:59] rivendell in the evening and you can see the shards of narsil on a on a sort of plinth there

[03:04:04] so they become this kind of heirloom and elrond actually in the book he delivers these shards

[03:04:10] of narsil to aragorn when aragorn was 20 this is when aragorn went and hung out in rivendell for a

[03:04:15] while but they didn't actually reforge it until the war of the ring so at the end of the third age when

[03:04:21] you have that big battle that's when um anduril was formed so they took the shards of narsil they

[03:04:27] reforged it into a new sword called anduril the flame of the west and this became aragorn's sword

[03:04:33] so aragorn of course the heir to isildur he gets this reforged sword and he carries a sword through

[03:04:40] his journeys in the fellowship of the ring and he fought with it in lots of different circumstances

[03:04:46] um and he referred to it as the sword that was broken or the sword reforged so lots of cool and

[03:04:52] important stuff is going to happen with this sword which is why all of the people who know the law

[03:04:57] completely geeked out at seeing it on screen here properly for the first time and to see elendil wield

[03:05:02] it was pretty cool wasn't it we were still on screen it was exciting yeah and the fact that they had him

[03:05:08] mimic the motions of vego mortensen as aragorn in the films was so i thought loving just a tribute to

[03:05:20] how meaningful aragorn and the sword are to fans yeah definitely it was really great i loved it

[03:05:27] we also had a little bit of talk about a seal door so um sounds like some of our listeners have

[03:05:34] had enough of him and don't really want to see him much we have some of our listeners adore him and

[03:05:38] want more of a seal door so this is always great i think when you have a bit of division because it

[03:05:42] shows that someone is doing a good job it shows that they're portraying this character in a way that's

[03:05:47] um that's captivating and um as you say maxine baldry is doing an amazing job with the seal door

[03:05:52] and i like him more in this this season um he's on the ship he's heading back to numenor

[03:05:59] um yeah like we said it's a bit sad that elendil's left town and he's gone to the to the other coast

[03:06:05] so hopefully they are going to cross paths again soon um those of us who know what happens next with

[03:06:12] numenor so numenor is going to fall we've heard this a few times the fall of numenor

[03:06:17] but a seal door and elendil are going to survive along with their brother and arian

[03:06:21] um we don't know the fate yet of a yari in because she's made up but made up for the show but a seal

[03:06:29] door elendil and anarian are going to escape the fall of numenor on these nine ships and they're

[03:06:34] going to head out to middle earth and they're going to found the kingdoms of gondor and anor

[03:06:38] but the most important job that a seal door is going to have in numenor before that happens

[03:06:43] is that he is going to take a cutting or a seedling from the white tree and he is going to

[03:06:49] um rescue that sneak in sneak in and grab it and he's going to take that to middle earth and that

[03:06:54] is going to become the white tree of gondor so that's his main job that's the main thing that i

[03:06:59] can't wait to see i'm sure we're going to see that on screen so that's going to be really exciting

[03:07:07] and what else have i got probably just one more little point really and that is the shot that we see

[03:07:14] of sauron at the very end with faenor's hammer so faenor's hammer we've talked about before this is

[03:07:21] the hammer that was originally just sitting there on display in calibrin boys workshop and then he

[03:07:27] ended up using it to forge the rings and at the end we see sauron holding it and kind of contemplating

[03:07:36] and i've there's been a few theories bandied about is he going to use that hammer to forge the one ring

[03:07:42] and the other thought that i had actually was in this design we can see that the the hammer itself is

[03:07:49] inlaid with a lot of gold um and i wondered whether he was going to take the gold from that

[03:07:54] hammer and actually use that to make the one ring to make into the one ring because is that gold from

[03:08:01] valinor the same way that galadriel's dagger was in the first season yes definitely yep so it's got some

[03:08:10] power and in it um and i think that it's a very good option that he might do that either one would be

[03:08:16] pretty cool to see and either one i guess would fit in with what we know about the story so

[03:08:20] that's going to be pretty exciting to see yeah anything else penny from your perspective uh about

[03:08:28] spoilery speculations no i don't think so although i'll probably have new stuff when we do our wrap-up

[03:08:35] episode yeah it's going to be cool to look back at the season um as a whole we didn't have that much

[03:08:40] chance to do that this episode just because this is a very long episode i think this is definitely the

[03:08:45] longest we've gone yeah and it's going to be good to be able to go back and wrap it up um so we will

[03:08:51] have an episode coming out in the next few weeks um with a wrap-up and we are hoping to have that um

[03:08:57] as a crossover podcast with some special guests and uh beyond that we have also got the uh war of the

[03:09:04] roherum coverage to look at in december as well and then my aim as well is to uh hopefully cover the

[03:09:12] hobbit movies which we said we were going to do um last year and didn't happen so that might be a good

[03:09:18] way to kind of get a bit more perspective now that we've got some of these characters um a bit more

[03:09:22] depth to their to their backgrounds so that's going to be really exciting as well so stay tuned there is

[03:09:27] a lot more to to hear um over the next few months but for today that is our show thanks for listening

[03:09:34] everyone i can't believe the season is over yep as we begin the long dark night of waiting for season

[03:09:40] three we should remember the counsel of our dear friend calibre and boar greatest of alvin smiths

[03:09:46] yes we should remind our people that it is not strength that overcomes darkness but light

[03:09:53] and the sun yet shines

[03:09:56] and the sun yet shines

[03:09:58] and the sun yet shines

[03:09:58] Thank you.