9: "Alloyed" (S1E8)

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[00:01:58] Well, I can't remember if I saw the Hobbit cartoon first. You know the one they used to play back in the 70s?

[00:02:08] They used to play that every year and I'd watch it anytime I knew it was on and loved it.

[00:02:14] But also my aunt would read The Lord of the Rings to me and I would beg her to read it to me and I loved that too.

[00:02:23] So, you know, that was when I was like 6, 7, 8 years old, maybe a little older.

[00:02:28] So I loved it since I was a kid and I was so excited when they were going to do the movies and I thought, you know, they were announced way ahead of time so I'd follow any bits of news and everything.

[00:02:42] And then I loved the movies and it's so weird now that the movies are 20 years ago because I just remember anticipating those and not having them, you know?

[00:02:51] And now that's what most people probably think of when they think of the story, but I still have a soft spot for the books.

[00:02:56] I read the trilogy myself a couple of times including all the back matter and the front matter and everything else, you know?

[00:03:04] I love how detailed and deep this world is and the languages that Tolkien created.

[00:03:13] I think he was such a huge nerd and geeked out on this stuff and I love it.

[00:03:20] So yeah, I just, I'm really into it.

[00:03:23] Yeah, I think I've heard before the definition of nerd or geek is not really what you're into but how far into it you get.

[00:03:31] And I think that's the case with Tolkien.

[00:03:32] He went far.

[00:03:33] Yeah, all that detail and background which just lends so much to the story.

[00:03:38] It's incredible.

[00:03:38] Which is great.

[00:03:40] Yeah, so as usually everyone we are going to have a section later on where we're going to discuss some things that might be spoilery for future seasons based on background that we've either read or speculating about upcoming plots and things.

[00:03:54] Saying that we do realize there was quite a lot revealed in this episode.

[00:03:57] So exciting to talk about most of that in the main section.

[00:04:00] But we will also have our Galadriel's Mara section where we're going to say a little bit more spoilery things and we'll give you the warning for that one as well when it comes up.

[00:04:08] So what did you think in general, Penny?

[00:04:12] I thought it was a little uneven.

[00:04:15] They packed a lot of story into the one episode.

[00:04:19] But overall it was very satisfying.

[00:04:22] I loved getting answers to questions that then just open up new questions.

[00:04:29] And of course the production values continue to be absolutely stunning and beautiful.

[00:04:35] Yeah.

[00:04:36] What about you, Jason?

[00:04:37] What are your thoughts overall?

[00:04:38] Yeah, I just hope we never get jaded to how not only great the production value is and amazing the visuals are but imaginative too.

[00:04:50] How they, what they choose to show like when the, do you call them mystics or witches or the three?

[00:04:57] I've been calling them mystics.

[00:04:59] Mystics.

[00:05:00] I was calling them witches.

[00:05:01] That's funny.

[00:05:02] Okay, either or right.

[00:05:03] So yeah, when this stranger like shines his light on them and they turn into these skull creatures but then they're like these like moths appear out of their heads and then their whole bodies just turned into moths and flutter away.

[00:05:16] Stuff like that all throughout is just so beautiful and interesting and I think it's definitely awesome to have a podcast where we get to gush about that stuff and not just let it go by without paying attention to it.

[00:05:29] Anyways, I thought the episode was awesome.

[00:05:32] It had three things we've been waiting for the revelation of who's Sauron more on the identity of the stranger and forging the rings of power and you know they didn't go too far with any of that but what we got was enough for me.

[00:05:44] It's the end of the first season and I was thrilled by all of it so I thought it was an awesome episode.

[00:05:50] By the way, I've also really been enjoying the podcast listening to you guys each week especially the depth of knowledge in the.

[00:05:59] The musical Adreals mirror segments and so that's been really fun to listen to as a fan.

[00:06:06] I did not get a chance to listen to last week's so I didn't get to hear what you said about how anyone could survive a lava tsunami.

[00:06:14] Did you talk about that?

[00:06:16] I'm sure you did.

[00:06:16] Yeah, mostly we said I guess we just have to accept it and move on.

[00:06:21] I guess so.

[00:06:23] That's ridiculous.

[00:06:24] And I missed the opportunity for a really good joke.

[00:06:29] One does not simply walk out of Mordor.

[00:06:35] Yeah, no definitely go back and listen to that one, Jason.

[00:06:39] We talked about it and most of our listeners who sent feedback and also touched on it so yeah it was pretty cool.

[00:06:47] But thank you so much.

[00:06:48] Thanks very much.

[00:06:49] I like your phrasing lava tsunami.

[00:06:52] I hadn't heard those two together before and it's very visceral.

[00:06:57] I mean, it's like you know, you just like a wave of lava and then the next episode of dust myself off.

[00:07:08] Walk past the dude on fire.

[00:07:11] Don't even look at him.

[00:07:12] Yeah, keep going.

[00:07:15] Yeah, I agree.

[00:07:17] I actually before this episode I did really enjoy it.

[00:07:21] I found it very satisfying with all of the things that were payoffs and I was worried that it would go the other way and not quite give us enough and just very gently tease some things which would have been okay to keep us interested for the next season.

[00:07:37] But I think they loaded this show up with so many mysteries that if there hadn't been the payoff at the end, it would have been really frustrating.

[00:07:48] So I think they got the tone right with that.

[00:07:51] Penny, I understand what you mean about the unevenness and I've got a bit more to say about that later in terms of how much time they spent on sort of each storyline.

[00:07:59] But overall, I think it was a really satisfying ending and kept us excited for the next season whenever that happens.

[00:08:08] But also made you feel like there was some sort of completion or resolution of some of the storylines that we've seen so far.

[00:08:14] So I was happy with the overall especially on the second watch.

[00:08:18] I think really just sinking into it and enjoying the story.

[00:08:22] All right, shall we get into our main points?

[00:08:24] Jason, would you like to go first?

[00:08:26] Sure.

[00:08:26] My first point is called the Rings of Power because we got the rings.

[00:08:32] Yay!

[00:08:33] I like that they're red, white and blue.

[00:08:35] I don't know.

[00:08:36] It's pretty patriotic.

[00:08:37] The British flag, the French flag, the American flag.

[00:08:40] I think it's fire, air, and water.

[00:08:44] Oh, yeah.

[00:08:45] Yeah.

[00:08:47] So I love that rings are such a key part of this series.

[00:08:52] I always liked magic objects.

[00:08:55] I love thinking about the keys and lock and key.

[00:08:58] I don't know if you guys watch that.

[00:09:00] But I've always thought rings are particularly special.

[00:09:04] I don't know if that's because my aunt read The Lord of the Rings to me,

[00:09:07] and that's what sort of ignited my imagination around rings or maybe that's why I like the story.

[00:09:11] Because I think it's probably that the story put that in me and the Hobbit cartoon and everything.

[00:09:18] But later I got into Dungeons and Dragons.

[00:09:22] And I rarely even played.

[00:09:24] I just looked through the books and guides and I'd pay a special attention to the magic rings that you'd like shoot fireballs or levitate or whatever.

[00:09:32] Green Lantern was always one of my favorite heroes.

[00:09:35] Later in life, in my 20s and 30s, I had this ring whenever I wore it.

[00:09:40] I felt more confident.

[00:09:41] It's kind of weird, but it's a psychological thing.

[00:09:44] So I was particularly fascinated with the poem about the rings, which they turned into a song at the end of this episode.

[00:09:52] Three rings for the Elven Kings under the sky.

[00:09:55] Seven for the dwarf lords and their halls of stone.

[00:09:58] Nine for mortal men doomed to die.

[00:10:01] One for the dark lord on his dark throne in the land of Mordor where the shadows lie.

[00:10:05] One ring to rule them all.

[00:10:06] One ring to find them.

[00:10:08] One ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them.

[00:10:11] I always wondered is that three or just one?

[00:10:12] Are they talking about the same one?

[00:10:14] One.

[00:10:15] When I was a kid.

[00:10:17] So, you know, of course we mostly saw only the one ring in the Lord of the Rings, which I with I think flashes of a couple others if you watch the special editions.

[00:10:25] But I always wanted to know more about the other all those other rings.

[00:10:30] And it's interesting to me that after thousands of pages written by Tolkien, they're still pretty mysterious.

[00:10:36] We know some, but there's more that could be explored.

[00:10:40] And so that's why when they titled this series, The Rings of Power, I was like, what a great title, you know, and it's taking place because I read that Netflix.

[00:10:50] What they wanted to do was like a an Aragorn spin off and, you know, like Marvel doesn't man that that just seems so uninteresting to me compared to what they're doing, which is exploring an unexplored time period.

[00:11:04] And with that, we get to explore the creation of these rings.

[00:11:08] So that's really cool.

[00:11:10] I know we're going to get to see, you know, or we're seeing now how they were created why and I hope we get to see what they can do too.

[00:11:19] But I also I think it's kind of cool that they only appeared in the final scene of the season and no one even wore them just to save it till the very last moment.

[00:11:29] But if they hadn't appeared at all, like you said, and when that would have sucked, I would have been so frustrated.

[00:11:35] So now we know why they were rings, why they were made that the elven light was fading and myth real could have strengthened it.

[00:11:45] But the dwarves wouldn't give it over so they need to leave for the undying lands or I guess the undying lands are somewhere else.

[00:11:51] So they won't fade away.

[00:11:54] But then Halbrand has this idea to strengthen the alloy of that little piece of myth roll that they had by adding other metals.

[00:12:05] I think it's kind of weird to make the founding of the rings based on something that's I think different than the books.

[00:12:11] I hope it's OK to say that.

[00:12:12] But the myth rule isn't like this in the books with these super it's a special metal but not like can save the elves if they had enough of it.

[00:12:21] But you guys have talked about how the story sometimes is different than the books and how the fans can be really upset about that.

[00:12:30] Sometimes I've tried to look at it as an adaptation kind of like The Walking Dead where some characters and story lines are completely different from the source material.

[00:12:39] But some are close to the same.

[00:12:41] And when I think about it that way it helps me not worry about the differences too much.

[00:12:46] But anyways so Halbrand comes up with the idea to amplify these rings as I said and earlier Kellibre Mor was already thinking there must be some way to do more with less talking about how the sun started as being no bigger than the palm of his hand.

[00:13:00] I don't think that's quite accurate but maybe in Lord of the Rings world.

[00:13:04] But maybe it is accurate.

[00:13:06] I don't know.

[00:13:06] Anyways I thought that the name of the episode Alloyed is clever because the first definition of alloy as a verb is to mix metals.

[00:13:17] But the second definition is to debase something by adding something inferior which I feel like has ominous implications for all this maybe.

[00:13:26] And I also wonder maybe during given that myth rule to Elrond was maybe not such a great thing.

[00:13:34] Because maybe the world would be better off if none of these rings were created.

[00:13:37] I don't know.

[00:13:38] I guess we'll see as we go along whether we think it was a mistake for any of them to be created at all.

[00:13:43] I mean there I think in Tolkien's time they were seen as a metaphor for nuclear power.

[00:13:50] So when Elrond and Kellibre Mor bring the idea to Gil-Galad and he says one object for all Middle Earth precisely what manner of object.

[00:14:00] And Kellibre Mor was it would be smaller than previously imagined something that could be carried.

[00:14:06] A scepter perhaps a sword or perhaps and I'm like a ring right you're gonna say ring in a crown and like no what.

[00:14:15] I thought that was deliberately funny for them to get us going everybody screaming at their TV a ring.

[00:14:21] And then Kellibre Mor says a circular form would be ideal allowing the light to arc back upon itself in one broken round building to a power that is all but unbounded.

[00:14:31] I thought that was kind of a beautiful description.

[00:14:34] And I like that Gil-Galad resists be like who's gonna wear this thing you you are and he's like I don't know about this so that's a sign that he's a he's a good king that he's resisting that.

[00:14:45] And then I'm realizing this point is very long maybe I'll just stop right there and let you guys do more because I have more to say about the rings of power but I think that's enough for now.

[00:14:56] Well, I have some stuff on the rings too so we can stay on that theme what about you Penny did you have anything to add at this time.

[00:15:05] Sort of yeah I had a some notes about the concept of alloys as a metaphor.

[00:15:12] Just that purity is not always the strongest thing there's a lot of people in the world who are sort of obsessed with different types of purity right there's like.

[00:15:21] There's a lot of people who care about bloodlines or if you watch you know House of the Dragon there's people in those movies and shows that care about bloodlines and you know there's like is something pure wool is it pure you know linen is it is it pure gold all these things but.

[00:15:41] As how brown points out that mixing things together can create strength and amplify the good qualities of both metals that are being mixed and I think it's sort of a metaphor for humans that you know we need to.

[00:15:55] We need to try to take power from each other and amplify each other instead of trying to separate from other humans.

[00:16:03] I think the lab could be commentary on in breeding as well.

[00:16:06] Yeah I think glad to know is also an alloy right she is the human or well Elvin in embodiment of the concept of dark and light together making somebody stronger and fiercer right she had to touch the darkness to find the light that was what her brother told her to do and.

[00:16:29] You know I'd are said she's been changed by darkness and she says at one point that she felt like there was darkness in her and that's why she couldn't go to Valinor.

[00:16:39] She is in.

[00:16:42] An an ally and I guess the whole rest of the show is going to be trying to find out if that darkness within her makes her stronger or diluted.

[00:16:54] Yeah that's a great point and our on does the same we've talked before about our on being half Elvin and that his human lineage and his small part of Maya lineage as well.

[00:17:06] Lends itself to him being able to see things with greater perspective so that he's not just that pure Elvin very one sort of sided way of thinking.

[00:17:16] And he's more like amenable to being friends with doors and things like that because he's yeah definitely because he's he's I'm.

[00:17:22] Understands what it's like to be a different race or have a perspective of a different race which is a really great lesson too I think.

[00:17:30] Yeah oh that's great yeah I had quite a bit about the rings to I thought also that the material would be a wild goose chase you know we've seen that for the last few episodes and why do they want this thing and it's sort of not canon that.

[00:17:45] Miss Rilla is going to save the elves and that the elves even really need saving that's a whole different point but I actually love how they decided to use the small piece that they already had to make the rings.

[00:17:57] And how they woke that into the story there was seven episodes with no whiff of the rings at all except the forge being built.

[00:18:05] And I expected that might we might see sort of a small clue at the end of this episode just even like I would have I would have even been satisfied with just a small way less than we got in terms of what they're doing with the rings or that they're going to be rings.

[00:18:20] But I just love also that they went there and they went all the way to making the three and Calibre and boys line if only there was some way of doing more with less like every single thing that happened I just kind of went yeah they're going there they do the next step it was so much fun.

[00:18:34] What I loved as well they never use the word rings and this episode.

[00:18:40] We see that they don't yeah they don't they don't say yeah go back and look.

[00:18:46] The evolution went from the weapons to the crown to something smaller and he's nearly finished maybe in the very last scene do they say something about it but I don't think so not when not when they're planning and I don't I didn't remember hearing it but correct me if I'm wrong go back and watch Jason.

[00:19:04] I loved when Hal Brand entered the forge I was waiting for that moment all season because you know I've been very much how brand is sour on the whole time and I was like he just got to get him to the house how they're going to get him to the house and then last week when he was injured and he needs elvish medicine I was like yes.

[00:19:22] And then as soon as he entered the forge I loved that and I just loved that whole tension with them and every line and every look that happened just solidified more and more that it was so I don't know loved it.

[00:19:36] The flattery that he gave and he says to Caleb Rimbaud the master I was apprentice to used to speak of the wonders of your craft so he could be talking about a couple of people there so it could be more goth because that was used to be his boss.

[00:19:49] But it could even be our lay you remember that Valar who's in charge of smithing and Sauron learnt from him before he turned to serve more goth so that's why he's a good Smith himself.

[00:20:01] He's got ideas that might work and he combines the idea of combining with other oars and then he's also humble so it sort of shows that really clever kind of trickery.

[00:20:11] He says oh excuse me but at the risk of sounding a fool and then he talks about combining them with other oars and Caleb Rimbaud realizes he might be on something and there's that close up of Halbrand handing the mystery back to him and the music swells and then Halbrand says call it a gift.

[00:20:26] And I loved that because you know one of Sauron's names was Anatar the Lord of Gifts.

[00:20:33] And I just love how that line that he says it's the absolute confirmation for book readers that he's Sauron but non book readers still don't know until later in the episode.

[00:20:41] So if you didn't know all that background about the giver of gifts and the fact that he was going to be there it's he could just still be Halbrand with some nice ideas you know but it was a really great validation for everyone who knew already.

[00:20:54] The three rings you're right Jason the ring of water, the ring of fire and the ring of air so Nenya is the ring of water that was made of Mithril with a stone of adamant.

[00:21:04] That was the white one and then you've got Nariah the ring of fire set with the ruby and Villia is the ring of air that's the mightiest of them and that's the gold one with the sapphire stone.

[00:21:13] And they were named after the three principal elements each of them matches the color of their stones and their names also match the fate of the three Silmarils.

[00:21:23] So out of the three Silmarils one went into the fire, one went into the water and one went into the air.

[00:21:28] So we don't know that much about their specific powers or whether they had that much to do with each element but we do see a few clues later on in the books and the movies about what happens with those.

[00:21:38] So it is going to be really cool to see what happens later with them and we might talk a little bit more in Gladrius mirror about that as well.

[00:21:47] I had a couple more things.

[00:21:49] Can I continue on this kind of exhaust the whole rings thing?

[00:21:54] I sort of wondered if Halberin told you know when Halberin told Gladriel we decided to make two.

[00:22:01] You're right they didn't say rings.

[00:22:02] I just looked at the transcript but you kind of knew.

[00:22:06] He said we're going to make two and she goes two crowns and he said no or something.

[00:22:12] I don't know but I wonder if he came up with that idea because he was hoping to wear one himself.

[00:22:19] You know, I think that would be pretty presumptuous but maybe he thought he could make a case for it as the king of the Southlands or something like that.

[00:22:26] Yeah, good luck getting that past Gilgallad because he's the one who sees that low man.

[00:22:32] Yeah, that's true.

[00:22:35] Yeah maybe not that's just a theory but then and you know she says later two divides so maybe he was hoping to divide.

[00:22:44] Gladriel doesn't tell them that Halbrand is Sauron.

[00:22:48] She just says Halberin's gone and you know don't worry about him.

[00:22:52] Don't ever talk to him again.

[00:22:54] I thought that was a bit of a mistake and I think Halbrand slash Sauron created that because he said to her the elves cast you out for dainting to beg them for a few petty soldiers.

[00:23:06] What will they do when you tell them that you were my ally when you tell them that Sauron lives because of you.

[00:23:12] And I think maybe that's why she didn't tell him but as the rings are being the final touches you know Elrond sees or no he finds the scroll and then she sees that he has it anyway.

[00:23:28] Then she says I want to you know we should make three.

[00:23:32] You think maybe she's going to say let's stop this whole thing but no she decides to make three.

[00:23:37] She says one will corrupt two will divide but with three there's balance.

[00:23:41] I love that.

[00:23:43] I also think three could potentially divide too but it is more stable like there's a better chance that if one person goes rogue you have the other two to sort of bring them back or something.

[00:23:53] When they placed the dagger into the forging fire you know Gladriels is that a dagger and they poured the melted metal into the mold and then they dropped the mithril in the mithril in the molten metal looks like the eye of Sauron.

[00:24:10] For a few seconds and I think that's just sort of a little nod that the rings are connected to him.

[00:24:17] He was right there helping make them and then we see the metalsmiths like shaping the rings and those stones he said Caleb Rimbour said he made those stones hoping to capture the essence of Middle Earth which I thought was cool and I hope we get more of what that meant.

[00:24:37] But I do yeah they're connected to the elements and then at the end we see the three rings from overheads and then that resolves into Hal Brand's eye gazing on Mount Doom so that's another connection with the eye of Sauron there.

[00:24:53] And I also feel like he's gazing at Mount Doom because he's going to go right over there and forge the one ring in the fires of Mount Doom you know I don't know do you think that's what why he's there.

[00:25:06] I think it's probably a couple of things you know he went to the elves and now he's been found out so where can he go.

[00:25:16] Well his people and people who want to worship him are in the Southlands which is now Mordor so it's a very logical next step for him to be like let me just go see what's going on over there and then he's like that mountain is giving me an idea.

[00:25:32] I mean I wonder I feel like he probably had this idea the whole time but I think yeah you're totally right that that's where he could have the most power right now.

[00:25:41] But I just wonder if he's like because I don't think the one ring is forged yet I could be wrong but I don't think so so I feel like that's one of the next things on his to-do list maybe.

[00:25:51] Yeah I mean the mystery as well is about the you know we know from the song and from the book and everything else that there's seven for the Dwarf Lords and nine for the Kings of Men and we haven't seen any of those yet.

[00:26:05] Whether they've been created in the background that I went back after watching the episode and read those sections from the book and it's not very clear that they were made before or after the three Elven Rings but the general just as they were before because they were sort of like almost like practice rings

[00:26:26] and it wasn't actually Calibre and all that made them it was some of his kind of a pretty lesser yeah lesser Smiths that made them under the guys of under the guidance of Anatar.

[00:26:38] They're going to be coming into the story later surely because we're going to see the Nazgul and the ringwraiths and all that stuff and maybe they it's less well documented in the story but we might see that as being the reason one of the reasons why you know that leads to things happening later with the Dwarfs that I won't go into.

[00:26:56] Yeah I read some things about all those other rings too but I thought I would save it for a gladrials mirroring because it's a bit too much.

[00:27:03] Yeah let's do that that sounds good brilliant anything else on the rings for anybody.

[00:27:10] Nope cool alright Penny what's your first main point we probably all had rings as a point.

[00:27:17] What do you want to go to next.

[00:27:20] Sympathy for the devil and the potential for redemption so sympathy for the devil is a very well known Rolling Stones song but it's also a phrase used to describe any fictional work actually doesn't have to be fiction any work that tries to look at a situation from the point of view of the villain especially when that villain is meant to be.

[00:27:46] Sort of larger than life evil like we're dealing with with sauron you know Lucifer Darth Vader like big evil.

[00:27:57] And I one thing that always sort of bothered me in the books was the monolithic nature of Mordor and the forces of evil and sauron it was just like they're bad and like.

[00:28:11] That's all we really ever know about what who they are and why they do the things they do and this show is already given us so much more texture right we know that as our wanted to create a land for his people.

[00:28:25] That's not an evil intention he just went about it in an evil way and sauron seemed to me like sincerely trying to find peace and.

[00:28:36] And gladrile sort of dragged him back into the world I mean he let her but.

[00:28:43] It's so much more interesting to know that there was a time when he didn't want to be sauron he really did want to stay in new manure and Smith for a while and just leave that behind him.

[00:28:56] And she couldn't help herself but dragging back in therefore fulfilling I don't know the prophecy or whatever that Gil glad was talking about that she would be responsible for bringing sauron back to Middle Earth after all this time.

[00:29:10] Well you know that metals shouldn't be forced to join but rather drawn or coax together.

[00:29:17] And it's something I've talked about before right like sometimes a soft approach is more effective than brute force and here's a perfect example of that.

[00:29:29] And I started to think about whether or not redemption is even a possibility for sauron.

[00:29:38] Galadriel thinks no right she says no penance can ever erase the evil that you have done and he throws it back in her face he's like that's not what you believe.

[00:29:47] You told me after our victory that whatever I had done before I could be free of it.

[00:29:51] And it's a big question for Galadriel to answer for herself is once darkness is in can you ever be free of the darkness and go back to the light.

[00:30:00] Sauron was was of the light before he allied himself with Morgoth right he was a Maya am I right about that.

[00:30:08] Fallen in yeah.

[00:30:09] And his big goals were precision and order right he liked things to be tidy and everybody to do what they're doing at what they're supposed to do and so he seeks control because he wants everybody to just be you know in order kind of like the emperor in Star Wars.

[00:30:30] And he decided that in order to get that kind of control he needed power and then to get power he allied himself with Morgoth and then was fully corrupted by Morgoth.

[00:30:40] But the question is whether they're still good in him that could be brought out.

[00:30:45] I mean we all know how the story ends but I think along the way he's going to waiver and we're gonna see him really struggling with that.

[00:30:53] Yeah it's definitely you know I have seen some some feedback I mean you know I don't know if you guys have been reading anything online but the comments on various pages are hilarious people like I don't know after eight episodes if they're not enjoying it they're still watching it and saying mean things about it.

[00:31:09] I'm just like one something else to do get a hobby.

[00:31:12] I have one of the case of Lord of the Rings I think a tiny bit of law knowledge is a dangerous thing like some people learn something and then they go oh well it's not this because of that and they just didn't go any deeper.

[00:31:24] So I have heard some people say well that's just ridiculous Sauron's bad why would he be repenting it is canon that he repented he in the books he did repent after Morgoth fell he did want to heal Middle Earth.

[00:31:36] He did want to restore order he wanted to rehabilitate and reestablish the area that was genuine and I think that's what we're seeing on screen at the moment that they're portraying that really well so part of it is a way to kind of I guess show more depth to the character of Sauron.

[00:31:57] But I don't think we're going to see any more.

[00:32:01] Wavering from him now I think that they know they know who he is they know he's there he's back unless they go to some other extreme and make him have a different fair face and come back and forge the other rings I just don't think they're going to go there though I think this is that he's emo Sauron now you saw him with his with his dark eyes and his big black cape entering into Mordor.

[00:32:23] And I think that's where he's going to rally the armies.

[00:32:26] The only thing I think that we're going to see that's a slight I guess variation from that but also true to the story is things that might happen later on with the new Manor and again I'm not going to go into detail about that outside of the mirror.

[00:32:39] But yeah I think I think they've done a nice job of showing the real parts of Sauron that did repent but the thing is that same in the book he sort of repented and wanted to save Middle Earth but in order to save it he had to control it and if you control something you have power over any really loved power so the more he got the more he wanted which continued sort of his journey down that dark path really.

[00:33:06] Yeah I find all this really interesting too.

[00:33:09] I think probably in the original trilogy the most interesting character at least in the movies in that regard was Saruman who was corrupted you know but Sauron was just a big eye that made orcs and sent them out to kill people.

[00:33:24] But I find the most interesting thing about the how Brand slash Sauron story is wondering how much of what he's saying is true and how much is a ruse because it's possible that everything is a lie and that everything is a manipulation and that everything he says you know he says to.

[00:33:44] Glad real I'd all that give it up you believe to me you saw strength in me you push me to heights no one else could have I will never forget that.

[00:33:51] I think that's true but it could be a lie it could just be a way to get her to think that she's the one whose idea was for him to come back and he pretended not to want to leave new manure because he reads people really well and suspected that she would push him you know.

[00:34:10] And I mean there's tons of examples like that where it seems like it was her idea but it could have been his and even like the idea of I want to heal this land and she says you'll and you'll do that by ruling and that's why I'll never join you.

[00:34:28] I mean on one hand this whole story is about these righteous kings not righteous but good Kings like Aragorn and Gil glad you know you need a good king in this world so it's not.

[00:34:43] It shouldn't just be seen as oh wait you want to be a king that rules this year a bad guy no that's what happens in this world you need good Kings.

[00:34:51] But also one of these witches says you know oh you're so wrong so I don't have it right in front of me here what they said but something about you're going to make everything that walks and crawls your slaves right so.

[00:35:09] They just presume that that's what he's all about I mean they got the wrong guy so how much do they really know but you could see it both ways at this point and I think it's kind of delicious to think that.

[00:35:23] Actually everything he's doing is a total manipulation he just wants power he wants to make the whole world his slaves he wants to subject the elves and yet he's so seductive that he's talking us into believing that there could be some other motive there.

[00:35:36] That would be the best most impressive thing this show could do in my opinion is to get us to believe that there's nuance there when there's not really because he's the devil and he's so tricky that we're falling for it.

[00:35:48] Yeah and I whether they went that deep with it or whether they didn't the portrayal of how brand is that as this Southlands man who you know this reluctant King was so well done like honestly from.

[00:36:02] Right up until the start of this this episode airing I'd say there were quite a few people that thought he was so on but very many people didn't and didn't get a clue about that especially if you haven't read the books.

[00:36:17] Yeah they did a really great job and they sort of throw us off by making him look a little bit Aragorn like and yeah sort of soft spoken voice and.

[00:36:24] I mean they've said a star and his fair face and you guys are like well he's not that fair face and I'm like yeah maybe that was on purpose because if they got like Harry Styles and it would have clearly been.

[00:36:34] Yeah he's sort of rugged but he's not like overly pretty yeah but he sort of fits the bill like could be yeah but the great casting right they could kind of go either way you know and.

[00:36:45] Yeah I agree and he and yeah he didn't like he says to her I never I never really lied to you and she sort of gets this realization on her face about that yeah it's quite amazing.

[00:36:57] It was a great moment all the back and forth between them and realizing away the whole time I was right there in front of me.

[00:37:04] Yeah yeah that that that goes quite nicely into one of my main points so I'll go with that next and I'm calling it the mind mailed sequence.

[00:37:15] So I'm getting into Galadriel's mind.

[00:37:19] She begins to realize there was just that very first moment when they're all standing there talking about whether to make you know what to make out of this material and Caleb Rambo was trying to convince Galad.

[00:37:30] And when he says his suggestions were about the key that unlocked the dam I loved that because we had the sword was the key that actually unlocked the dam none of them know that but I love that they gave us that little snippet for the audience.

[00:37:42] We're on the cusp of crafting a new kind of power not of strength but of spirit not of the flesh but over flesh and of course Galadriel her spidey senses perk up immediately because she heard those words from at our.

[00:37:54] When they were talking in the barn and he also had described the power of the unseen world so she was very hesitant right for like was where'd you hear that was how bring with you.

[00:38:04] Yeah yeah and even before she sort of challenged him on I loved just the way cuts to her face and just a little flicker of understanding that starting there I thought her acting was really great in this episode.

[00:38:17] And then so then she sends that Vulcan looking guy off Alph Librarian guy off to find some proof that Halbrand is not who he says he is.

[00:38:27] And then there's that scene in the courtyard between Halbrand and Galadriel where he thanks her for saving him and they're really really close physically and sort of intensely gazing and like I did see online you know some awful speculation that there'd be some kind of romantic connection between them.

[00:38:46] And of course there isn't but I love I loved how he says to her you believed in me you saw strength in me you pushed me to heights that no one else could have.

[00:38:53] I'll never forget that and then he sort of puts his hand tending on his shoulder and then he leans in any whispers I'll see to it that no one else does either.

[00:39:02] And I just loved it it was so menacing yeah there was a subtle change in music.

[00:39:07] Yeah and you know she's no dummy she's like she already knows and I think he knows that she knows now and that's him sort of warning her almost don't don't go there.

[00:39:15] But it was just beautiful just real really quiet but super menacing.

[00:39:20] And it was it was an obvious but subtle change in the music it wasn't like din din din but it was sort of like these kind of scary strings coming in.

[00:39:28] I see I was dumb I didn't even suspect him at this point at all that was all going over my head on first watch.

[00:39:34] I was like holy shit this stranger guy is Sarah and I never would have thought that.

[00:39:40] Have you not been listening to the podcast Jason?

[00:39:42] I have but I know everyone thought Halbrand was sorry but I thought we were wrong.

[00:39:49] No I didn't know for sure I thought there was a pretty good chance he was but then when they said the 3D mystics were like we bow to you Sarah and I was like holy shit they tricked us and that's what I thought until later in the episode.

[00:40:05] Beautiful I mean you were experiencing the show the way the creators wanted you to.

[00:40:12] Yeah I was but also I kind of feel like I actually feel like there's been moments throughout this season where I've questioned how much credit they give the audience because there's been a few things like the whole title changing to Mordor and there's been a few things that I thought were just really a little bit clunky or a bit obvious.

[00:40:35] But I absolutely loved that they did that whole double blind thing with you Sarah on because I just could hear like all of the people around the world who have been saying that stranger is Sarah on or along going I told you so I told you.

[00:40:50] And then I was still like no it's not haha that's really funny but then they kept it going for a number of scenes until we get.

[00:40:57] This reveal with the actual Sarah and so I thought it was clever.

[00:41:00] Yeah well I mean when he said I'm good you know when Norrie talked him out of it then I was like OK that means it must be Halbrand and I really liked that too because I.

[00:41:10] You know we all most people thought it was Halbrand and the writers knew that most people would be thinking that and so in order that wouldn't have not have been a good shock if they didn't do this as well.

[00:41:22] They had to throw in this left turn so that then it would be kind of a shock at least for me it was when oh no actually it is Halbrand.

[00:41:30] Exactly in my opinion.

[00:41:32] Yeah and you know we all thought that he said a lot of us thought that he was Sarah on because of a lot of hints that they were dropping but then of course is that whole kind of double bluff maybe they're dropping those to make us think it isn't it.

[00:41:44] Sure.

[00:41:44] All that sort of stuff but you know all those clues through the episode from that first moment that they met on the raft and he says looks can be deceiving.

[00:41:51] And I remember my husband as soon as that he said that line my husband goes Sarah.

[00:41:58] But it seemed like it could be too obvious.

[00:42:00] I mean he's a Smith you know all these little details about him that maybe like you said they were steering us down that road to pull this left turn so then when they said it was the stranger I'm like oh wow they totally got us.

[00:42:12] For me the biggest clue was the number of times that Halbrand talked about how long he had been searching for peace and he looks like we've said he looks 30 so how long could he have really been searching if he also had time to be a king.

[00:42:31] And it just seemed to me like that was him really saying he was sour on but I was maintained some skepticism.

[00:42:40] Yeah because TV shows do that sometimes they cast people who look way too young for the characters.

[00:42:46] Yeah and we talked about that in other episodes too about how there's this whole King that was promised thing and if he's 30 and he's been the king already and this is really small area how nobody know who he was kind of things so yeah we've kind of covered that but yeah absolutely agree it was really well done.

[00:43:03] It's a little suspension of disbelief that she had to go look at a scroll to figure out that this King was didn't have an air for a thousand years.

[00:43:13] Yeah it's kind of like as the new menorah library out of date like all she found is a still but she didn't find out how long yeah and maybe the elves have got the better library which kind of makes sense but yeah it's a shortcut to kind of her just being sure I guess.

[00:43:28] Yeah and then she's got her scroll and she confronts him by the river and she does the classic thing that you always tell people not to do in TV shows and movies is don't confront the bad guy in a secluded area.

[00:43:43] She's cocky.

[00:43:44] Yeah well she is and you know out of out of anybody there she's probably the best match for my guess nowhere near his power but she was very strong and I think he wanted to keep her on side longer.

[00:43:58] You know like he says I never lied and she says that he saved her on the raft and he says you saved me.

[00:44:04] She says he convinced myra and he says no you convinced her all of this is true all of this happens and she realizes that you can see that in her face.

[00:44:11] He says he fought beside her against the enemy so he must be talking about the common enemy being at our and I guess that's true at our killed him or tried to kill him or whatever he whether that was true or not that I said but anyway they're not they're not best friends will and I will be interested to see what happens with them

[00:44:30] or he or Sauron's a huge liar.

[00:44:32] Yeah yeah.

[00:44:35] And that line he says and again you know I said before that every every line that happens with how brand solidifies that he's Sauron and the next one that I loved that was really powerful was I have been awake since before the breaking of the first silence and that time I have had many names

[00:44:52] and his face is amazing.

[00:44:54] Yeah it is faces so impassive and she's just kind of like it's really him.

[00:44:59] That was a moment right there.

[00:45:00] You know yeah and hundreds and hundreds of years she's been chasing him and he's right in front of her and she had trusted him.

[00:45:08] Yeah it was incredible and I loved seeing her brother again I really like the actor I don't know what else he's been in but I want to see him again.

[00:45:16] He was so good and it was a really great performance because you could tell he was playing Sauron playing the brother which was great it wasn't just a similar representation of how he acted before because I think in the prologue he had a great

[00:45:31] beautiful peaceful Alvin quality to him and that real pure love for Galadriel that you could tell and this was a very different performance that was Sauron wearing the Finrod mask and that was amazing to watch.

[00:45:46] He's like it's all good baby kind of it's fine don't worry about it.

[00:45:49] Yeah and just that sort of slightly slight desperation kind of on his face he's trying to convince her.

[00:45:56] And Sauron at that point is still trying to convince her to join him.

[00:45:59] You know he's probably thinking that she's a good ally.

[00:46:01] She is one of the strongest beings on earth and as the brother he says he whispers touch the darkness once more and in reality he had said to her sometimes we cannot know the light until we have touched the darkness so again that's Sauron twisting the words and trying to use her brother's words to convince her to join him.

[00:46:20] Yeah and then they cut to being on the raft and he talks about wanting to repent and to heal Middle Earth and he wants her to join him and when the camera tilted around and you saw that reflection of Sauron and this evil queen by his side.

[00:46:36] I love that so much that was so powerful and really cool kind of callback I guess to you know we see that flash of Galadriel when she's been tempted by the ring with Frodo and Jus.

[00:46:50] You sort of see her go all that powerful and terrible I'll touch on that later point as well but I love that just little image that she sees oh wow I'd be next to you and I'd be a queen.

[00:47:01] And he says I alone can see your lights and I loved how he turned once she refused because it's that real close up they went right in on his face he's actually looking into the camera which is quite a rare technique to use unless you're on she hold can you break in the fourth wall.

[00:47:18] But actually looking right into the camera to to give us what she saw him looking intensely into her eyes and he looks he looks he's got this kind of beautiful look on his face and he sort of giving and promising and all this sort of stuff and then as soon as she refused his eyes went really bloodshot and dark circles

[00:47:38] and his voice changed and the music changed and he says what will you do what will they do when you tell him that you're my ally that's our lives because of you.

[00:47:47] And that was so intense I just I watched that a few times because it was just so exciting.

[00:47:53] That that sequence really reminded me of the way abusive like domestic partners treat their their victim right they say everybody else doesn't love you I'm the only one.

[00:48:08] That loves you I see the real you and then as soon as the person is like I don't think you're right for me they're like you're never going to make it out there without me.

[00:48:17] Like he turned on her so viciously and so quickly it just reminded me of like every like movie or TV representation of an abusive boyfriend I've ever seen it was it was startling in this show where I think of everybody being you know elevated and above sort of petty things

[00:48:38] and not.

[00:48:40] Yeah I think they had to do that they had they had to you know because otherwise we're like oh well hell brand okay he's evil Sauron but he hadn't done anything yet we had to we had to see the menace in him to buy it and to.

[00:48:52] Be scared and worried and excited about what happens next I think you really had to see that and I think he did an amazing job of it because he has been pretty mild mannered so far right yeah tricked us or tricked all of them.

[00:49:03] Have you guys seen that movie sleeping with the enemy.

[00:49:07] It's it's an old movie in the 80s yeah Julia Roberts it's the best example of domestic abuse I think I've ever seen in a movie it's really chilling just that.

[00:49:18] That's the one where she has the hand towels and it's like the hand towels slightly uneven and so she knows he's been there or something yeah that was chilling those amazing.

[00:49:27] Tangent.

[00:49:28] Yeah yeah and so then we've got glad real she she you know looks like she's drowning and then she wakes up with our on pulling out and they have that really touching moments where he reminds her how they met.

[00:49:42] And he says he says some words to her and alvish this is a quick test.

[00:49:48] And I actually couldn't find the translation for that.

[00:49:52] Kueth means life or living but I couldn't find any translation anywhere for tests so I'm not quite sure where they got that from but I guess he's saying you know you're alive this is real kind of thing you know something like that which I thought I thought it was really moving and I do really love the way that they have.

[00:50:08] Portraits the closeness of our on the gradual throughout so far and again it'll be interesting to see where they take that next.

[00:50:18] I had a couple other things on this so the whole thing you know her brother but really so I'm saying so I'm with seeking power not to destroy Middle Earth but to heal it just as your fellow elves are seeking to do and.

[00:50:33] He's he tells her you know if I was ever to be forgiven for what I did with morgue off I'd have to help heal and.

[00:50:41] You know he tells her week together we can save Middle Earth I'll bring the power you bring the light so you can you know steer me correctly do you think there's a chance that he's completely sincere in all of that.

[00:50:54] I think so.

[00:50:55] I think there's a slight chance but I would if I was in Vegas I would not bet on it I think it's most likely BS.

[00:51:04] I think there's a slight chance that I do agree that characters are more interesting when they have some shades and they're not just black or white and I think it lends more depth to him and it does fit with his with his history.

[00:51:19] Yeah again you know even just when he says when she says he'll or roll and he says well I don't see any difference I mean that kind of just sums him up right.

[00:51:28] Yeah I he wants to dominate yeah exactly he's a bad guy he thinks he's a good guy.

[00:51:35] He's like no I you know when morgue off died it felt like the fist that was clasped around my neck released and I could feel the light of the one.

[00:51:45] I mean maybe you're right Jason and all of that was lies and trickery but a lot of you know quote unquote bad guys think that they are the good guy and I think he truly thought like I'm going to heal Middle Earth and and Gladri will be the perfect partner for that.

[00:52:04] She's she's powerful and like we get along really well we have this chemistry we you know bring out the best in each other I think this could work this could be my ticket to Redemption.

[00:52:15] Yeah I mean I think you could be right you know I think maybe two equally interesting possibilities are that you're right that he because this is the way it works in the real world that people think that they they have the answers and they're self righteous right and so they get power and they impose that on people whether they want or not because they think that they're helping but it turns out they're not so much.

[00:52:45] So that could be where he's at but the other for me equally interesting possibility is that he's just a devious guy and he's full of shit and I usually like more nuance in my characters like that's one of the reasons why breaking bad and better cross all are my favorites because the characters have elements of humanity but also flaws but I don't know for this story about light and darkness it almost feels like it would be just as interesting for someone to be like a Satan figure who's just filled filled with lies and making us believe him.

[00:53:15] We've already talked about this but we're kind of repeating the same thing over again I think you could be right.

[00:53:19] Yeah, I want to take the Switzerland neutral ground here and say that I think it's actually a little bit of both I think that he did.

[00:53:27] He's open to the possibility of it.

[00:53:30] But I think at this stage in the story he's gone past that so he's using that as a means of trickery to suck her in but I think he's actually passed the point of wanting any redemption I do think he knows he's bad I think he knows that he wants domination and.

[00:53:44] That's where he's at this point in the story and we talked about Adar said earlier on that he had wanted to repent but this is centuries and centuries before I think he's got to the point now where he just wants to dominate and he's doing everything he can including tricking.

[00:54:01] Galadriel and pretending to be a nice guy.

[00:54:03] That's where I sit on it.

[00:54:04] I mean I wonder if they're because it's my impression that the other rings are not created yet and if it goes by the story.

[00:54:13] I don't want to get too much into it but he helps the elves create the other rings too.

[00:54:17] And so that would mean that he would need to go back and convince them to do that in future seasons.

[00:54:23] Well she didn't tell them why not to treat with him and at the end of at the very end of the episode when they're showing the three rings and the three of them are standing around them.

[00:54:35] Kelebrimbor looked like golemish he was greedy he looks so sad aside and greedy and I think she would have said those are precious.

[00:54:47] Seriously if I think that if Hallbrandt pops back up in Kelebrimbor's life when Galadriel is not standing right next to him and says like I could help you make some more powerful rings that Kelebrimbor will be 100% on board and he'll be like Galadriel never even told us why not to treat with him like whatever.

[00:55:05] Yeah and he said to Galadriel you can tell them the truth so that maybe that little piece of dialogue makes me think that he's planning on going back and saying hey I've been totally honest about everything.

[00:55:19] Yeah.

[00:55:21] Also Sauron says you know together we can save Middle Earth and I probably miss something but I don't understand like if not from him what are we saving Middle Earth from and why are the elves fading and why does the shadow spreading to darken and cover all the world if not coming from Sauron.

[00:55:41] I don't think we know that.

[00:55:43] We don't know.

[00:55:45] But maybe it's true that the damage done in the big war with Morgoth was so deep that the Earth, the Middle Earth needs more healing than we've even seen.

[00:55:59] I mean when we saw the humans in their village they didn't look like they were living well you know they were like struggling to get by everyone except for Bronwyn like had no teeth and was all wretched looking.

[00:56:12] I think there's a and the orcs are running rampant everywhere you know that Morgoth may have created the orcs but they're still running around Middle Earth murdering and killing and maybe one of the things he thinks he can heal is to either eliminate the orcs or channel them into something else or change them in some way so they're not like you know eating humans and stuff.

[00:56:40] That'd be a good start.

[00:56:42] Yeah, I think they've just we've talked about it on previous episodes about the sort of acceleration of this whole representation of the tree dying and the elves have to get out by next spring or they're all dead and you know that that's an embellishment or a kind of.

[00:56:59] I guess they've they've sped it up or they've made it more intense than it is from the from the books and you know sour and being evil and being alongside all of that is just part of it.

[00:57:10] And hopefully they'll explore somewhere in the next season which I think is going to be a bit more sour and centric than Galadriel centric.

[00:57:16] So we'll sort of see where that goes.

[00:57:20] All right, Jason what's your next point.

[00:57:25] The stranger and Nori.

[00:57:27] So these three mystic slash witches finally meet up with the stranger and they say we come to serve you Lord Sauron and I was like what oh my God.

[00:57:41] That guy's not fair face.

[00:57:43] What.

[00:57:45] And as I said, I thought I think that's great misdirection because we all thought the most likely version person to be Sauron was Halbrand and they knew we would think that so they threw this left turn and I bought into it.

[00:58:02] And then then when it was Halbrand it was a shock where it would have not been if they had just said Halbrand was Sauron.

[00:58:10] Yeah, we that's what we thought.

[00:58:12] So this was good.

[00:58:14] They say there's been a veil placed on the stranger's mind these mystics and the more his powers grow the more the veil will weaken.

[00:58:22] And you know he'll know it's true self and they've come to bring him to the land of run to the east and then he gets all agitated and so they put him to sleep.

[00:58:34] They're like he learned to control his powers and then Nori comes to him and I thought well you're about to try to wake up Sauron.

[00:58:42] You should just run away.

[00:58:44] And then the witches shoot.

[00:58:48] Saddock is that how you say it?

[00:58:51] Yeah.

[00:58:51] And then the stranger turns out to be this creepy witch in disguise which I just love that visual.

[00:59:01] It's so creepy how these witches disguised themselves and then reveal themselves by bending down and rising as their creepy selves with the kind of like ashes of their disguise falling off of them.

[00:59:13] It's scary and it's like man I would not want to see because it's like it's almost like the same feeling as a zombie you know you're it's your friend there and then next thing you know it's somebody wants to kill you.

[00:59:24] So yeah they're trying they're going to kill Nori and the stranger comes back all agitated and they're like master calm yourself and one of the witches says to the other which make him see so she grabs some fire in her hands and starts like blowing fire kisses at the heart with that.

[00:59:42] So such a cool sequence.

[00:59:44] The whole thing was incredible I thought.

[00:59:46] And then meanwhile Nori's trying to hand him his staff take it we need you just take it.

[00:59:51] He's like get away from me or I'll hurt you again.

[00:59:53] What?

[00:59:54] What have they done to you?

[00:59:55] They've showed me what I am only you can show what you are you choose by what you do you're here to help I know it.

[01:00:02] And this whole series has this theme of dark versus light and the allure of the dark and everything and this fits right in with this the stranger was touched by darkness but chose the light here.

[01:00:14] And the fire which is about to kill some hard foots the the matriarch and a couple others and then the stranger just puts out his fire and says from shadow you came from shadow I bid you return and then you hear he is in Sauron.

[01:00:32] He would never say that.

[01:00:34] And then he goes he is and he goes I'm good which I loved and then his then I thought okay it's Hal Brown but then his staff lights up like Gandalf's light that we've seen before and they're lit up like ghastly skull people.

[01:00:54] And then he turns them into moths or I mean that just whole thing as I said at the top of the podcast.

[01:01:02] I thought was really cool spectacular.

[01:01:05] And so then he reveals that he's an Ishtar or wizard and he remembers fragments of himself in his life but he has to go to ruin to discover the rest.

[01:01:16] And that's the place where they wanted to take him so that's where he's going to go and I have more to say about that in gladrius mirror but then the whole segment with Nori being sad that he's leaving.

[01:01:29] He really not coming with us are you and he goes be times our path are laid before us by the powers greater than our own in those moments it's our task to make our feet go where our hearts wish not to tread no matter the perils waiting us on the way.

[01:01:42] And I'm like wow I like this guy about 100% more now that he talks because before he was just this crazy disheveled.

[01:01:50] I'm like you really want to take this guy with you but now he's like all eloquent and has this great accent and everything.

[01:01:57] It's a big difference.

[01:01:58] And she says you know sounds a bit like an adventure and he goes oh alone is just a journey now adventures they must be shared I think she saw.

[01:02:06] Oh she's intrigued by that and he's like why don't you come with me but she resists but then it was so touching when her mother and father encouraged her to go.

[01:02:16] And I love the moment when her father was like oh you're going off and I haven't taught you a blooming thing and then she rattles off all these things that she's learned from him is so sweet.

[01:02:25] I was like almost in tears there and then saying goodbye to Poppy that really got me too although I thought Poppy might go with like Frodo and Sam or Mary and Pippin kind of thing but I guess not.

[01:02:33] And then I don't know the name of the new matriarch but she says nobody goes off trail and they all go nobody walks alone and that was really bittersweet to have somebody else saying it you know.

[01:02:46] Yeah yeah Malva is her name she's had a wee bit of a redemption arc isn't she.

[01:02:52] So I enjoyed all of that all of that storyline pretty much just as much as any other one because it was exciting and.

[01:03:03] It was touching and it was thrilling.

[01:03:07] And it looked amazing.

[01:03:08] The firefix were incredible weren't they I loved the fire.

[01:03:12] Yeah imagine it too.

[01:03:13] The two times that the witch shed her disguise Jason you're so right it was so creepy like when she was nori first her eyes went all white and it was like and I thought at first I was like oh is nori possessed.

[01:03:29] Like there was a spell on her and then of course she reveals herself and then the second time when she sort of steps out of the of the you know fluttering stranger ash and it was so creepy the way her body moved it didn't look human.

[01:03:49] I was I was like oh she's scary and then when they got killed I was like I kind of hope there's more witches when he gets to room.

[01:03:59] They were interesting.

[01:04:01] Yeah she was cool in particular wasn't she that one with the white eyes and the way she moved and there was one moment where she's crouching down and then she suddenly looks up and yeah that was really really tense as well I think they've been really clever.

[01:04:14] One of the things I think has been quite masterful has been the trailers what they've showed in the trailers all the way through so from the beginning when they had the teasers and then they've continued on.

[01:04:23] And I was horrified by the trailer last week of nori having the white eyes and looking possessed and I thought oh no please don't make them go there or make her be bad or be possessed by them or whatever.

[01:04:37] But it was it was such a perfect kind of outcome that it was actually shape shifting and it was trickery I loved that I thought it was so well done.

[01:04:43] It's especially creepy because not only is this person who you thought was your friend and that you're safe with not that person but then when they turn into one of those women it's like oh my god they're so scary looking creepy and bad.

[01:05:10] Yeah.

[01:05:11] And then later on the hobbits they can just blend into the background and not be seen.

[01:05:15] That was really clever.

[01:05:17] That's their skill they fade into the shadows kind of thing.

[01:05:21] I was also really surprised that Poppy didn't go with them.

[01:05:25] I mean they had a touching goodbye it was clearly very difficult for both Poppy and Nori but I just fully expected Poppy to be like wait for me and follow along behind maybe that'll happen in season two.

[01:05:38] Maybe it's interesting they didn't because even it would have been the predictable thing.

[01:05:45] Well they gave her something else to do to the right like they when Malva gets the map wrong and then Poppy comes over and reads it and she said oh why don't you be the trail finder and then Poppy gets that kind of look like oh yeah that could be me.

[01:05:59] So I think she's got a she's got a role but yeah I don't know maybe maybe they'll that'll come into it later.

[01:06:06] They might not even show the Harfoot anymore.

[01:06:09] They probably will but yeah I would be surprised if we don't see them again.

[01:06:15] Because actually that whole the Harfoot storyline I felt like that was the one that I was like when is this gonna really go somewhere this season and now with Nori going off with this wizard it feels like it's really just getting started but she's leaving her crew so I don't know.

[01:06:36] Yeah I feel like it was just a sort of I think it had two real purposes one was a vessel for the wizard so how do we introduce the beginning of who this is and then the other one was that it's Lord of the Rings and people want Hobbits.

[01:06:52] Exactly, absolutely.

[01:06:53] They put them in there.

[01:06:54] These early proto-hobbits it's familiar but it's a bit different.

[01:06:58] Totally.

[01:06:58] It's appealing it shows you the heart of the story and it shows you you know you've got all these men who are sort of gritty and Richard like you said Penny you've got these Hortie aloof elves you've got these dwarves who are a whole different thing in themselves.

[01:07:14] Hardy and boisterous.

[01:07:16] Yeah it does add balance to have this these sort of little you know the Hobbits are the kind of every man they're the kind of ones that we often relate to in the story so that's I think one of the reasons why they put them in there.

[01:07:27] And it'll be good to get one of those Hobbits out into the well I was going to say wilder wider world but they are migrants but still just more into the rest of the story you know I mean her foot's not Hobbits.

[01:07:43] Alright, Penny what's your next point?

[01:07:45] My next point actually follows on from part of what Jason said and it's about the role of faith in the story.

[01:07:53] We've seen it come up a few times over the course of the season in this one it was when the wizard says to Nori about their paths being laid before them by powers greater than our own and that it's their task to make their feet go where their hearts wish not to tread.

[01:08:08] Last episode we had King Durin saying that the elves fate was decided by wiser minds you know hundreds or thousands of years earlier.

[01:08:18] Galadriel to Theo after the volcano destruction when she was saying you know on days such as these we have to trust you know to the designs of these higher powers and then finally Miriel in this episode.

[01:08:31] And she's talked about faithful before and the faith of the Valar and the Valar are watching us and in this one it was my father once told me that the way of the faithful is committing to pay the price.

[01:08:43] Even if the cost cannot be known and trusting that in the end it will be worth it.

[01:08:48] And Ellen Dale says sometimes the cost is dear.

[01:08:52] She agrees.

[01:08:53] And he says we have little choice then but to keep serving and I for one will see to it that we make the end worth the price.

[01:09:02] The the use of faith in this world is so interesting to me because it's a world with like literal gods who have interacted with beings that are still alive right.

[01:09:14] We talked about this before that it must be easier to believe in God's when you can see physical evidence of them which is unlike you know our own universe where we were supposed to do.

[01:09:23] We're supposed to just take it on faith but I am very confused still by how having faith in a higher power that has designs that might require you to go places you don't want to go blow up a volcano and destroy an entire section of the country.

[01:09:41] Kill off an entire race of elves like how does that comfort someone who is going through a hard time to know that powers higher than their own have made a plan that might like kill a bunch of people.

[01:09:54] I don't really get it.

[01:09:57] But I know Tolkien was a devout Christian so he got it and maybe I just need to read more.

[01:10:02] Yeah well Tolkien was very adamant that the story is not allegorical in a religious sense and that it's you know he was very clear that he didn't want each of these things to represent real elements from religion but you look at it and it's pretty clear that it is.

[01:10:22] It's sort of like you can how much can you believe about what it says about their own work or the intention whether that was intention you might have intended it to be an allegory but it clearly has a lot of elements.

[01:10:32] There's archetypes too and it's hard to stay away from those especially in big epic stories like this.

[01:10:41] Yeah.

[01:10:42] But I don't know.

[01:10:43] I don't know that answer to that.

[01:10:45] I question a lot of things that people do in the name of faith throughout history so I can help you.

[01:10:53] Sorry.

[01:10:56] That's great.

[01:10:58] And that kind of is quite a good precursor to mine.

[01:11:02] My next point as well Penny which is all about becoming so it's about becoming who you are and.

[01:11:10] You know sort of I guess if you keep on that faith theme that the solidifying or the reaffirming of people's faith in themselves or in their path.

[01:11:20] A lot of characters have wondered throughout the season what path to take or they've chosen a path but then wavered a little bit and in this episode they all kind of make a final choice.

[01:11:32] So I'm just going to run through all the characters that we see that do that.

[01:11:34] So Nori she sort of played with being an adventurer throughout and she's had some moments of doubt whether that's who she is but in the end she does realize that she has to go and be a wanderer and that's backed up by her family and all her friends that she should do that.

[01:11:50] Her parents just know like come on.

[01:11:53] Yeah this is you.

[01:11:55] This is who you are.

[01:11:58] And then when the dweller casts the stranger down and Nori convinces him only you can show what you are you choose by what you do.

[01:12:09] And she's so determined that he's good that it helps him believe that he's good as well.

[01:12:14] So she has this sort of influence over him and it's her faith and her conviction in him that helps him realize which I thought was really beautiful.

[01:12:23] And the strangers began beginning to become more himself.

[01:12:26] We talked about him slowly throughout and been learning the language.

[01:12:30] I think he had a huge upswing in this episode suddenly his fluent which was kind of cool.

[01:12:35] He can feel the power swelling in him when there were three mystics tell him that he's Sauron and now that we know he's a wizard you know sent by the Valar.

[01:12:44] So him sort of getting all worked up at the mention of Sauron is really understandable because that's his main foe.

[01:12:49] That's what he sent there to help Middle Earth with.

[01:12:53] We talked about Poppy becoming the trail finder so that might be something that we see a bit more of later on.

[01:12:59] Miryel again once she made the decision to go to Middle Earth she was kind of all in you know we did see her waver a little bit in the first few episodes but once she decided that was it and now she's even more determined that's it she's going to take that path.

[01:13:12] And it will be interesting to see whether the sort of dying words of the of the old king make their way back to her with a forgotten name.

[01:13:24] Earean.

[01:13:25] Earean with Earean let's her know that that's what he'd said you know we have to go back to the old ways I think she's already on that path and she's kind of confirmed that with Elendil.

[01:13:35] Elendil as well he made all the choices that he did.

[01:13:39] He says because Elendil does not mean merely one who loves the stars you know we know that it means our friend as well so he commits wholeheartedly to this cause even though he thinks he's lost a cell door.

[01:13:51] Galadriel was tested again I thought her acting was spectacular in this episode and all of those real close ups on her face when you can sort of see her.

[01:14:04] Not wavering but almost being seduced by the words of Sauron and she's almost considered it and we've seen that before that's a it's from the books and it's from we've seen it in the other movies when she's sort of tempted by the power of the ring because she could be.

[01:14:20] All powerful if she if she went to that dark side and that moment where she holds the dagger to Sauron's neck was so satisfying because you're like yes this is who she is she's chosen her path.

[01:14:33] It was it was a little hard for me to believe that she would have struggled with any of that given that we've seen how focused she is and has been on her mission of killing Sauron this whole season that once she has him there that she would be like oh I'm so confused I don't know.

[01:14:50] For me for me that was just a really clear representation of how sneaky and powerful he is that he could even get inside her head and make a question it that it shows the weight that he carries.

[01:15:03] I just wanted to believe it I know what they were going for but I just wanted to believe it a little more.

[01:15:11] But she did decide to make the rings at the end knowing that he was the one behind it so she did kind of fall for it.

[01:15:21] Yeah I guess so yeah I mean yeah.

[01:15:25] The ring the rings themselves you know that she very clearly said they can only be amongst us it can only be about the elves and so.

[01:15:36] She's not making the rings because he says to make them to do what he wants she's they flipped it to say we need this to protect ourselves and he mustn't know about it.

[01:15:47] So that's the whole point of the Alvin rings is that they don't know he doesn't know he doesn't know but I just think.

[01:15:53] And maybe you and I want to agree on this which is one of the reasons why you wanted to have me on the podcast right.

[01:15:58] But yeah maybe there's a tragic element to it you know because I think the whole theme of the series of light and dark and the allure of the dark and how a couple of episodes ago in.

[01:16:08] Gail Adriel was with Adar and seemed like the villain right there I'm going to eradicate all your people I mean they're ugly orcs but they're still people right sort of anyway.

[01:16:17] It just seemed like wow she seems like she's really fully over on the dark side here just wants to kill out a kill off an entire race.

[01:16:26] You can definitely make an argument for why that's a good thing but anyway just the way she was right there I think that's part of her story is that she does touch the dark every once in a while and she has to be careful not to go too far even in the Lord of the Rings you know like you said about coming to the power so I think it's interesting if.

[01:16:47] Not telling the elves that that Hallbrand was sauron and going forward making the rings and even making one more so that she could have it.

[01:16:56] It might be a little bit of a set of is that the right thing to do in there you know.

[01:17:02] Yeah and it was impossible saying yeah it was impossible to to understand what was going on in her head in that final scene when they're all looking at the rings and and she looks up and sees Elrond come in and.

[01:17:17] He clearly looks conflicted about the scroll and worried yeah that was when she knew that he knew she first time she knew that he knew that Hallbrand was.

[01:17:27] Sorry I don't know if he knows that Hallbrand is sauron he just knows that Hallbrand isn't who he said he was right like he didn't have the extra clue of the like hour over the flesh and all that stuff he just knows that something is up.

[01:17:40] Yeah but the look on her face was so hard for me to read she looked like sad and happy and greedy there was a little greed in her eyes to like kill a brim bore and also like she was really like anticipating this power.

[01:17:57] It was a very confusing scene I rewound and watched her facial expression several times and finally I was like I have no idea what she's thinking.

[01:18:07] I mean that's what the series it's a major theme of the series is the pull of power and you know like when Frodo got to Mount Doom he decided not to throw the ring in at the end you know it's mine so I just think there's got probably a part of that with Gladriel the main character of this series too like the allure of power and maybe

[01:18:28] you might go a little too far with it they could corrupt a bit.

[01:18:32] Yeah.

[01:18:34] Maybe that's great.

[01:18:38] All right where are we up to.

[01:18:40] Penny I was at your turn.

[01:18:43] I forgot I don't know.

[01:18:45] I have a short point so I'll throw this in here.

[01:18:47] I was thinking a lot about the inaccuracy of legends and myths like you know the history of Middle Earth is thousands of years at this point in the story and even the elves are using like old songs in order to look up or learn about historical events and there's this you know legend of how myth will was created the battle and the tree and the lightning and the ball rug.

[01:19:14] And they don't know if it's true or not right but Gilgallad is resting his hopes on it and I was thinking about how in our modern time you know history or in our you know this world history is as they say written by the victors and it's often a compression a distortion of what really happened.

[01:19:31] The things that are written the poems the songs the movies the books all of them have editorial choices made in them all of them leave some things out all of them you know compressed several characters together.

[01:19:45] I was thinking about how the elves don't look like we think that they should look from Lord of the Rings and and you know I'm like maybe that's just the you know somebody wrote that story and they were like the elves they were all beautiful and fair and tall and they were just being poetic.

[01:20:00] You know the poem by long fellow about Paul Revere.

[01:20:04] I don't on when you're not American so you probably don't know it but it's pretty famous it starts off listen my children and you shall hear of the midnight ride of Paul Revere and it's about how he warned the American revolutionaries that the British were coming with this.

[01:20:21] It's my day twice by night or something yeah.

[01:20:24] Yeah this heroic horse ride well the truth is that when long fellow went to write that poem he was working with he didn't have a name in there it was just like a revolutionary did this wild ride and then when he came up with listen my children and you shall hear he was like oh Paul Revere rhymes he was a revolutionary and in reality Paul Revere was like not that much of a high figure in the revolution.

[01:20:51] At that point he was like sort of rank and file but because his name rhymed he has achieved this like next level of fame in American history and I was that's amazing.

[01:21:03] I was thinking about doubting every Beastie Boys song I don't think they're true.

[01:21:09] I'm just wondering if some of the legends and myths and songs that we've heard as part of Tolkien's histories are also just interpretations and that there's a lot of room for the story in the rings of power to go in different directions and then you know just understand later that those stories get compressed and interpreted for history books.

[01:21:33] Yeah I agree and I also think that Tolkien himself was very well aware of it he knew that some of his works contradicted other parts of his works and there's different legends and one of the really great things about Tolkien was that he wrote these stories in his tales but it was almost like he was the conduit he felt like they were real and he would talk about the stories being maybe this happened and then maybe that happened so he talked about it like it was a real story.

[01:22:03] It was a real thing that almost he was a historian rather than the creator of it and that does lend itself to there being much more interpretation about different people legends myths races that you know we talked from the very beginning that quote that Tolkien said about other painters wielding the brush to kind of fill out the richness of this of these stories.

[01:22:28] And that's what I think that the show runners and the creators of this show are doing.

[01:22:32] There's always going to be people who detract from it and say that's not what happened in the books but there's so much that they're taking that they're embellishing that they're able to go into more and that they're able to explore in different ways which is really beautiful and it's really interesting to watch and it also means they have a little bit more license to be able to go in different directions.

[01:22:52] The one thing I do think about that what you're saying Penny about the myths and the legends.

[01:22:58] I do find it strange that they've got these myths and legends that are lost in time and no one knows if it's true well half of these elves were alive.

[01:23:05] I know.

[01:23:07] First and second age they were around before the world was made.

[01:23:10] I think about that a lot.

[01:23:12] I'm like do you not remember do elves like have like they you know they have multiple thousand year lifespans but maybe their memories are only a couple of hundred years but they clearly remember Valor.

[01:23:23] Hard drive fills up you gotta erase some files.

[01:23:26] Well you can also argue that you know there's always an in book reason for everything and you could argue that a lot of the elves didn't talk to each other for a lot of time.

[01:23:35] There was a sundering of the Alps the different races went different ways and you know there's yeah they might have had some palanteres but they didn't have email or news flashes or anything it's like they might not know what happened in one area.

[01:23:48] It also occurs to me that the elves wrote a lot of these histories so of course they wrote them to make themselves look good in a lot of cases where maybe they weren't so even the fair face thing of Sauron like they were like we got tricked.

[01:24:03] Well he looked really good and he was really so convincing.

[01:24:08] Yeah like it's all interpretation and since you mentioned that the different races of elves split up like that's why they don't know each other's legends because those aren't necessarily truth their interpretations of truth so when they learn them they're like is that what really happened I don't know.

[01:24:27] Yeah I think it works as a whole for sure yeah.

[01:24:31] So my next point is callbacks there were so many things in this episode that brought the season to full circle in a really satisfying way but also callbacks to not only things that they had mentioned or scenes that they had shown in this series but and also the books and the Peter Jackson films as well.

[01:24:56] So I'm going to run through them so a little bit of a bullet point one I've got quite a few and it'll be cool to see how many people pick them up and also if there's any others that I missed as well.

[01:25:06] So from this show there was quite a few characters that called back to scenes that they'd had before or conversations that had before with other characters so Galadriel describing to Elrond her actions on the raft so she tells them what happened when she jumped off the ship and we remembered that really well.

[01:25:25] Calla Bramboa repeating Adda's words so we remember hearing him tell Galadriel the same thing in the barn.

[01:25:32] We've got Elendiel meaning not one not merely one who loves the stars that recalls his first conversation with Muriel when they're talking about him being our friend.

[01:25:41] We have Elrond repeating back to Gurgala's hope is never mere not even when it's meager so he kind of uses his own words to basically convince him to change his mind.

[01:25:51] Elrond and Galadriel discuss what they had said in episode I can't remember if it was episode one or two but she says you spoke of a mistake one that you said you would not make again and Elrond says you're making that promise very difficult to keep.

[01:26:05] And I had to remind myself what that promise was but remember he convinced her to get on the ship to Valinor by promising her if but a whisper of a rumor of a threat you perceive proves true I will not rest until it is put right.

[01:26:16] I don't think that's the promise he meant.

[01:26:20] I think she meant earlier in this episode he said I made the mistake of not trusting you before and I promise I won't do it again.

[01:26:28] I think it's that.

[01:26:30] And so she was like don't ask me questions you said you would just trust me.

[01:26:35] Yeah.

[01:26:37] Yeah that's like I totally get it yeah no you're probably right.

[01:26:41] But I think I think he's he could potentially also be calling back that he had to back her up on whatever she was saying so.

[01:26:51] Both is probably true but yeah no that's a good point thank you for that but it's kind of funny because he says it like I don't know half an hour earlier and now he's saying this is really hard promise to keep it's kind of like come on Elrond.

[01:27:04] Gala drill and her brother the you know we see the flashback to the beautiful scene by the river and he says did you lose your footing again Gala drill so that whole scene was pretty much a call back to the earlier one which was really great.

[01:27:16] And then there was a bunch also from the books in the movie so when the dweller lifted up the stranger with her staff and spins him around it was just like Saruman does to Gandalf at Orthank and the fellowship of the ring remember when he spins him around and throws him up on the ship.

[01:27:31] And then he goes on to the ceiling that was really similar.

[01:27:34] The half what's throwing throwing the rocks begins a tradition of rock throwing hobbits which is a bit of a theme all the way through all of the works.

[01:27:42] Bilbo throws stones at the spiders and Merckwood and Mary and Pippin throw rocks at the Eurex.

[01:27:48] It was noted by talking that Hobbits had exceptional aim when throwing so I really like that they showed that from early on that there's half of it to throwing rocks.

[01:27:57] We have Nori saying to the stranger only you can show what you are you choose by what you do really similar in the fellowship when Frodo says to Gandalf I wish it need not have happened in my time and Gandalf says so do I and so do all who live to see such times but that is not for them to decide all we have to decide is what to do with the time that has given us.

[01:28:16] So I love that that whole theme of choosing your path and forging your own way.

[01:28:20] And the stranger says to the mystics from Shadow you came to Shadow I bid you return.

[01:28:27] It's very like Gandalf to the Balrog when they're fighting in Khazad-Dum he says I am a servant of the secret fire wielder of the flame of Arnoir you cannot pass the dark fire will not avail you flame of Uduan go back to the Shadow.

[01:28:43] And Arnoir just means sun so he's basically welding the flame of the sun and I really like that he's asking these evil creatures to go back to the shadow just like the Balrog.

[01:28:53] The slow motion Poppy running towards Nori when they're saying goodbye that was so similar to Merriam Pippin running to Frodo lying in bed at the end of the return of the king when they reunite.

[01:29:04] I do think slow mo can be really effective.

[01:29:07] I just don't like it when they use it when someone's talking like a slow motion of someone running into someone else's arms that's fine it's emotional this music playing but when that's like.

[01:29:17] Poppy I was just kind of like that and it was the same with return of the king.

[01:29:22] Mr Frodo just doesn't do it for me anyway it was still emotional.

[01:29:29] Nori says she doesn't know the way to go at the end when she sets off with the stranger it's just like Frodo saying I will take the ring to Mordor though I do not know the way.

[01:29:38] And then right after that you get one of the biggest almost pretty much word for word callbacks so the stranger says when in doubt Alina or Brandy foot always follow your nose and this is a pretty much an exact copy of that iconic Gandalf line from the Lord of the Rings.

[01:29:55] The Fellowship of the Ring when in the minds of Mauryan they don't know which way to go and he says to Mary if in doubt Mary ad hoc always follow your nose so that was fantastic.

[01:30:06] How brandy and Galadriel on the raft I would make you a queen fair as the sea and the sun stronger than the foundations of the earth.

[01:30:13] I loved the use of those lines we see it in the movie and the scene in Lothlory where Frodo has freely offered the one ring to Galadriel.

[01:30:23] From the movie it's slightly shortened from in the book but I've got the quote from the book here which is really cool and it's actually what I really loved was that this representation of what he says has actually got more in common with the book phrase than what they used in the movie.

[01:30:39] So I thought that was a really great callback.

[01:30:42] She says and now at last it comes you will give me the ring freely in place of the dark Lord you will set up a queen and I shall not be dark but beautiful and terrible as the morning and the night fair as the sea and the sun and the snow upon the mountain dreadful as a storm in the lightning stronger than the foundations of the earth or shall love me and despair.

[01:31:02] So they used quite a bit of that for the movie but I love this see in the sun which hell brand says to her directly from the book which is really cool.

[01:31:11] And then the last one was when Norrie says I haven't an inkling which way to go.

[01:31:17] I loved the use of the word inkling the inklings were a group of friends including Tolkien CS Lewis and Charles Williams they're really close friends they were all writers they were scholars and during the 1930s and when they lived in Oxford they used to meet regularly to discuss philosophy and literature and to read aloud from their books as they were writing them to sort of get feedback from each other about them so that cute little use of the word inkling.

[01:31:41] I'm searching was intentional I thought that was really cute talking CS Lewis and who.

[01:31:46] Charles Williams I don't know him but I know CS Lewis wrote the Narnia books yeah yeah that's it and lots of similarities in terms of the like you say they're sort of archetypes and things and CS Lewis works as well.

[01:32:00] I think that's more overtly Christian though the CS Lewis but yeah yeah for sure yeah anything else that you picked up that I hadn't mentioned about callbacks or nods to.

[01:32:11] To various other interpretations.

[01:32:13] There was a wizard in it.

[01:32:17] And some hobbits is.

[01:32:20] Creatures there were rings stuff stuff and rings.

[01:32:26] Beautiful landscapes.

[01:32:30] Yeah oh now you made me sad because they've moved it away from New Zealand and I'm like I know it's gonna suck now it's going to be like some English pubs or something.

[01:32:41] I hope they're filming at Pinewood studios in the UK because there's actually a very tiny chance that I could get myself on the set.

[01:32:54] Cool that's exciting do you know someone there I have a good friend whose childhood best friend is a prop master for like tons of movies that are done at Pinewood and he regularly gets my friend on the sets.

[01:33:09] So all I think I would need to do is go to England and you know ask.

[01:33:16] Ask nicely yeah that's cool.

[01:33:18] I could totally see you doing that.

[01:33:22] Yeah you're convincing they have released where they're filming so obviously they're filming in the bulk of it in the UK but they have mentioned New Zealand as one of the filming locations and for season two so I think that's probably mostly just going to be a second unit filming.

[01:33:39] Landscapes and things to drop in the background but you know there is the potential that they could decide okay we really need this one scene in this big sweeping landscape and we need the people to really be there.

[01:33:49] It would be a lot cheaper for them to just you know fly them out there for a couple of weeks to do that one scene then to yeah well I would hope that it'll be more realistic and look better than to try and drop it into.

[01:34:02] You've got some beautiful pretty little English field and then they go and throw the New Zealand Southern Alps in the background digitally.

[01:34:11] Most people might not be able to tell but if you're from New Zealand you'll be grumpy about it.

[01:34:19] All right who's next Jason have you got any more main points.

[01:34:24] I mean yeah sort of we've already covered it a lot but it was just sort of light versus dark and how that's been a theme of the story and I went back and watched the first scene of the first episode again where her brother is saying to young Galadriel after those kids

[01:34:42] messed with her boat you know her paper boat.

[01:34:45] Do you know why a ship floats and a stone cannot because the stone sees only downwards the darkness of the water is vast and irresistible.

[01:34:53] The ship fills the darkness as well striving moment by moment to master her and pull her under but the ship has a secret for unlike the stone her gaze is not downward but up fixed upon the light that guides her whispering of grander things that then darkness ever knew.

[01:35:08] And she says but sometimes the light shines just as brightly reflected in the water as they do in the sky it's hard to say which way is up and which way is down how am I to know which lights to follow.

[01:35:20] And then he says to her something that we don't hear until later but it's sometimes to find the light we must first touch darkness right.

[01:35:29] And then later in episode five how brand is telling her you don't know what I did before I ended up on that raft you don't know how I survived how we all survived and when these people discover it they will cast me out so will you and she says sometimes to find the light we must first touch the darkness and he says but I'm actually saw her on and she's like oh never mind let me just kill you.

[01:35:53] I had to get that part.

[01:35:57] But anyway I think yeah you know it but that makes me wonder because that's how they introduce the season.

[01:36:06] It makes me wonder if there's still more left with him where he may try to convince her that he's on the up and up now and he won't just be the emo goth black and white villain.

[01:36:17] I don't know. I think it does seem like that's where he's in Mordor and he's got his cloak and everything but I feel like there's still got to be some sort of temptation to darkness stuff somewhere in the story after this.

[01:36:30] Well they've left it nicely open which is really good for keeping people interested and encouraging speculation about it which is one of the things that being great at doing.

[01:36:39] It gives us lots to talk about yeah.

[01:36:41] Yeah the giant marketing budget helps as well to keep it keep it fresh.

[01:36:46] It's so beautiful. I was just floored by the first episode and I immediately thought this is the most beautiful show I've ever seen and I've seen hundreds of them.

[01:36:57] Yeah it's a visual face isn't it. So amazing.

[01:37:02] Yeah Penny have you got any more main points to cover?

[01:37:06] Just in the notes.

[01:37:08] Cool what notes would you like to talk about?

[01:37:11] All right Jason might remember this from covering Fear the Walking Dead.

[01:37:16] It really bugged me when they first rode into Eregion and Galadriel gets off her horse and she's like we've ridden without rest for days and those horses could not have looked less winded.

[01:37:29] They weren't sweaty.

[01:37:31] They weren't breathing hard.

[01:37:32] Their heads weren't down like just like spritz them with water like do something.

[01:37:38] That really bugged me just being nitpicky.

[01:37:42] But more importantly I really want to know what is up with Eregion and the Palantir we got so little of that story it was just this moment and it was like I was like what?

[01:37:55] And like we never went back to it.

[01:37:56] We didn't even get to see what she saw.

[01:37:58] Yeah I'm dying to know.

[01:38:00] Yeah I feel like they're going to go more into the new menorah stuff in the next couple of seasons and it might not conclude next season.

[01:38:08] It might be season three or maybe even later it's so hard to know what the structure is going to be.

[01:38:14] With a character like that who's made up for the show and is potentially replacing Inarion the other brother who also got sadly passed over in the Lot of the Rings movies.

[01:38:26] They have mentioned him in the show but we haven't seen him yet so where else are they going to go in new menorah and hopefully that's part of it because otherwise it's just a random nicely dressed character for the made up for the show.

[01:38:41] I have to say her dress and her hair in that scene where she's drawing the king was amazing spectacular.

[01:38:48] Yeah.

[01:38:48] Costuming is amazing.

[01:38:49] The king says to her when he thinks she's Muriel he says I know what you've been doing in the dark of night when you thought all eyes were asleep which was another giant cliffhanger.

[01:39:02] I'm like what was she doing?

[01:39:05] Like I really want to know.

[01:39:07] I always wondered whether you know how he sometimes when he's been a bit delirious he's mistaken different people and he's kind of coming in out of consciousness and things.

[01:39:16] I wonder whether that line wasn't directed to Muriel and was maybe directed to Farazon.

[01:39:21] Oh.

[01:39:22] Because that could make sense later but yeah we'll see.

[01:39:26] Ellen Dill and Muriel are getting very close.

[01:39:31] They seem to have developed a deep understanding of each other and friendship.

[01:39:38] I don't get any like romantic vibes off of them but they do seem to be relying on each other although twice now when Muriel has asked Ellen Dilla question he's just stared at her instead of answering and I'm like rude she's blind tell her what you see.

[01:39:56] He's like I'll pretend I'm not here.

[01:40:01] Yeah I actually I love that actor who plays Ellen Dill and I love that he is like for me I don't know what anyone else thinks but for me he is just flirting with that line between incredible and slight overacting and he's just on the edge he's so dramatic and so intense.

[01:40:24] I have read some people say they don't think he's a good actor because they maybe think he's crossed that line but I just think he's so dramatic and puts across the feeling and the weight of what he's saying so well.

[01:40:35] And yeah I can't wait to see what happens with them and with Numanor next.

[01:40:41] And whether they're going to find a sealed or underneath the burning remains of that.

[01:40:46] Of that show back up on the horse and then just you mentioned a Aryan's gown but Galadriel's gown when she's in a Reggion was gorgeous and I realized that the elf elf style is very art nouveau.

[01:41:02] And that the dwarves by comparison are very art deco and there's a ton of art nouveau and art deco in New York City and I used to live there and I loved walking around and those were always my favorite buildings you know like the Chrysler building and Empire State Building.

[01:41:18] They're so elegant and beautiful and that gown of Galadriel's with the like asymmetrical gold beating.

[01:41:26] I imagine if they like offered that on Amazon Prime they would sell out in seconds. It was so beautiful.

[01:41:34] I could just picture all the cosplayers like immediately ordering 10 meters of crushed green silk velvet and lots of little drapey silver bits but yeah that styling is absolutely gorgeous and the art nouveau like you say that style where there's a lot of curves and sort of fine bended kind of lines

[01:41:53] and then with the dwarves looking more deco you've got a lot of angles and more sharper kind of you know chevrons and things like that.

[01:42:02] It's great how they've distinguished that style and I think a lot of that is to do with the early artists who kind of rendered those drawings well before the movie so a couple of the artists who were the concept designers on a lot of the Rings movies are Peter Jackson ones Alan Lee and I think it's Peter, John Lee.

[01:42:23] John Howe so John Howe and Alan Lee. They illustrated a lot of the earlier copies of the books and then so they use them for the films and so you get that same translation of what each race looks like.

[01:42:36] I think that a lot of credit can go to them for the styling of how things look in both kind of representations.

[01:42:46] Yeah I didn't really have many more notes we've covered a lot already. Just one little tiny one I had was you get some more half-foot speech like I really like their little turns of phrase that they have and the when Poppy is saying goodbye to Nori and she says,

[01:43:02] look after everybody and Poppy says, of course I will ankle head. I thought what's an ankle head that's a really funny expression.

[01:43:10] That was cute and all their little sayings they have like as much use as a square wheel that kind of thing is really cool like that.

[01:43:19] And then I guess the last point was just the song that they had at the end that was sung by Fiona Apple and Russian by Bear McCrary obviously with the words of Tolkien.

[01:43:29] They just announced that about a week before the episode came out and beautiful rendering of it. I thought it was cool and it sort of reminded me a little bit of the one that Bjork did for I think she did it for one of the Hobbit films.

[01:43:43] And yeah it's been a tradition to kind of at the end of each large movie and I guess now at the end of the series each season of Rings of Power that they're going to have a sort of named well-known artist do a song.

[01:43:57] So I thought that was beautiful and bringing the whole Rings of Power into fruition with actually mentioning the rings and the ring rhyme was really great.

[01:44:08] Any other notes?

[01:44:09] Yeah a couple cool moments. I liked when Elron and Galadriel were reunited and you know he kind of came to terms okay she's back and then he said I should have never sent you on that ship I should have trusted you it's a mistake I will not make again that was nice.

[01:44:28] Yeah.

[01:44:29] And I really love his character by the way he's pretty traditionally good from what I can tell and I think that's refreshing in this day and age used to be every character was like that and we needed some anti-heroes now every character is an anti-hero so to me someone like Elron is pretty refreshing.

[01:44:48] Yeah and a really important character and he's the only one of the only ones that we sort of see apart from Galadriel being there all the way through seeing all of the happenings of the first, the second and the third age so the two of them and that's what I like about the series that even though it's thousands of years before for the viewers it links for us that we can see these familiar characters that we know but we see them in an earlier stage of their life.

[01:45:15] And then with this series if they do end up doing any time jumps or anything like that we've still got the constant of having these two characters that are going to be there that whole time so it's lovely.

[01:45:26] Just the actor his look is very like you could see why they would say you're gonna be an elf you can't be anything else.

[01:45:34] Yeah and he's also he does a good job at he can be sly and even manipulative like when he pretended to lose the axe contest or whatever it was and revealed it later but in a way where you still feel that he's good and likable and honorable and everything.

[01:45:55] That's how I feel anyway.

[01:45:59] Also the moment where Hallbrand and Galadriel are what did you call it? What if you had a name for when they were in her headspace?

[01:46:09] The mind meld.

[01:46:10] The mind meld yeah and they're on the raft talking about the future and the camera turned upside down and we see their reflections in the water and he's like this armored king and she's his queen I guess that was pretty amazing.

[01:46:22] And then Galadriel didn't accept that so she was cast underwater and you saw her hair floating up and flashes of light almost like fireworks from above.

[01:46:34] That was pretty striking just some striking moments and then the last one no I guess no that's it.

[01:46:41] Yeah I'm also curious of what Earean or however you say it finds when she looks into the Palantir but we'll find out.

[01:46:50] I love that movie and TV trope where the cloth gets removed and the last second before it reveals then it cuts to something else.

[01:47:00] That's away yeah.

[01:47:00] It's so overused but it's so effective.

[01:47:04] Love it.

[01:47:06] Fantastic so we are going to take a little break there's lots more to come so stay with us.

[01:47:30] And we're back.

[01:47:31] We got quite a lot of news this week obviously with being the finale there was a huge amount out there particularly with lots of interviews with the cast members with some of the things that have been revealed and I always kind of wonder you know they released very soon after the episode comes out so I'm thinking these journalists must have done all these interviews the week before and had very watertight NDA agreements, non disclosure agreements with Amazon.

[01:48:01] Because all these huge publications released almost immediately after the episode came out so heaps and heaps to read out there online if you want to check it out.

[01:48:08] We've got a couple of pieces here to mention the first is from Digital Spy.

[01:48:13] The casting crew went back to work in early October 2022 however while that means that things are ticking along nicely it could still be a while before a second season lands.

[01:48:22] Season 1 took 18 months to film and while that was part and part likely due to the COVID-19 pandemic there's no denying that the high production values would have played their own part.

[01:48:31] That's understandable.

[01:48:33] The show is simply gorgeous and that takes extensive work which according to the head of Amazon Studios Jennifer Salke they are not willing to rush.

[01:48:40] Salke told Rarati,

[01:48:41] We want the shortest time possible between seasons but we want to keep the bar just as high so it will take what it takes but there's been some urgency around moving quickly which is why these guys have been writing all through their hiatus.

[01:48:52] We're moving fast.

[01:48:53] With that in mind we wouldn't expect anything until the end of 2023 but if we're being more realistic spring 2024 is more likely.

[01:49:02] That kid is going to grow up too fast.

[01:49:06] Oh Theo?

[01:49:06] Brian and son yeah.

[01:49:08] Yeah well maybe they'll use it and there might be a bit of a time jumps in the short time jump I'm not sure because I am excited to see the progression of what happens to him and potentially him getting older could be a good thing but I sort of love that.

[01:49:22] They're like we're going to do it as soon as we can but it's going to be ages.

[01:49:25] Yeah I mean movies take a couple of years at the shortest usually for sequels to come out so a series like this that's like an eight hour movie if they can do it in two years then that in my opinion great.

[01:49:40] That's achievement especially when it looks like this like we were talking before about this almost being like four movies in length certainly so you imagine you know four full movies.

[01:49:51] They did shoot the Lord of the Rings the main films all together in one hit so that was about a 15 month shoot for the Lord of the Rings movies but then of course you've got all of the post production all that sort of stuff so let's just see.

[01:50:07] And those were three years in a row right?

[01:50:10] They released them three years in a row yeah but the whole all of the principal photography was shot at once.

[01:50:16] So yeah I don't think we'll be looking at the end of next year I think it's definitely going to be a couple of years so we'll wait and see.

[01:50:25] We have another article from the Hollywood Reporter and it's an interview with Charlie Vickers who plays Hallbrandt.

[01:50:33] British actor Charlie Vickers talks about his dual identity role how some of Hallbrandt's seemingly non-sauron like moves makes sense and what comes next for the character.

[01:50:44] They asked him so when did you know?

[01:50:48] I didn't know for sure until the beginning of the third episode we filmed the first two episodes and then the show went on hiatus because of covid.

[01:50:56] Toward the end of the hiatus the showrunner sat me down and told me I filmed that sequence on the raft not knowing I filmed it as Hallbrandt wholeheartedly but I did have an inkling if I'm honest with you.

[01:51:09] My last two auditions were reading lines from Richard the third and we know he's not the greatest guy in the world and then the other audition lines were from Paradise Lost where you're literally giving the speech as Satan.

[01:51:22] So that gave me an inkling where that gave me an inkling there was something up so I was definitely suspicious but it wasn't confirmed until right before we started filming the third episode.

[01:51:35] That's a clue isn't it?

[01:51:37] Here read this line as Darth Vader.

[01:51:40] Okay now try this one from Hitler or something.

[01:51:45] They also asked actors on genre shows and movies often have to keep secrets but this was a pretty big one that had heavy speculations.

[01:51:54] Have you had any difficult moments not spilling this along the way?

[01:51:57] Since the first episode aired I've had friends saying to me you're Sauron.

[01:52:02] These are some of my closest friends and I've had to keep them hanging or just send them down another path.

[01:52:07] I've had people speculating I'm the witch king or the king of the dead, us included.

[01:52:12] I've had people showing me pictures of the king of the dead who's literally a skeleton and putting it next to my face and saying you look exactly like this guy.

[01:52:22] Even around cast members when I first learned about it, Galadriel actress Morphine Clark was the only one I could tell so it's a relief to be able to share it.

[01:52:31] That would be so hard wouldn't it? Don't you recon?

[01:52:33] I just remember how Kit Harrington had to keep the secret, a big secret in between season 5 and 6 or 6 and 7.

[01:52:42] And how he revealed on some late night show that he got pulled over by a cop for speeding or something

[01:52:49] and the cop was like I'll let you go if you tell me what happens and he did.

[01:52:54] He told the cop.

[01:52:55] That's hilarious. He flat out lied about that too in interviews.

[01:53:00] Oh all the time.

[01:53:00] Yeah we did a great job.

[01:53:02] Good job, you just lie.

[01:53:05] I don't know how they do it. I just don't think I could.

[01:53:08] I couldn't do it. I'd have to tell someone.

[01:53:11] Yeah even like we were lucky enough to get screeners from Amazon for this and we got them, Penny and I got them sent to us two days before each episode aired.

[01:53:21] Which was awesome thank you so much Amazon.

[01:53:24] Even keeping stuff a secret for two days was really hard.

[01:53:28] I've been talking to people about the show and they'd say something like well actually, enjoy the talk.

[01:53:35] But just to be clear Amazon she did keep the secret.

[01:53:38] She's just saying it was hard.

[01:53:39] I did, it was really hard but I managed it.

[01:53:42] Fortunately we could talk to each other.

[01:53:44] Yeah, Anwin and I sometimes had to email each other and be like can you believe? Oh my God it's crazy.

[01:53:51] It's so funny.

[01:53:53] We got some great listener feedback this week you guys and it's a finale episode and I'm glad everybody like sent something in.

[01:54:01] Alma Contreras actually sent in two notes on Facebook.

[01:54:05] The first one was OMGOMGOMG with three exclamation marks.

[01:54:10] The stranger is Sauron?

[01:54:11] For some reason I was totally not expecting that.

[01:54:14] LOL I was fooled just like Galadriel.

[01:54:16] So Hallbrand is Sauron and the stranger is a wizard.

[01:54:20] Phew I knew he wasn't Sauron.

[01:54:22] What a good episode this was can't wait for the cast so I can get more of what I missed.

[01:54:28] Owie that last scene was epic.

[01:54:30] And then she continues, a question just occurred to me.

[01:54:33] What made the three chicks think the stranger was Sauron?

[01:54:37] The fact that he fell from the sky?

[01:54:39] They really did fool me in the beginning that when the truth about Hallbrand came out I was sitting there stunned and confused.

[01:54:46] They're the same type of being right?

[01:54:49] Oh I don't know if they're Astari or if they're just like, you know witches or something.

[01:54:55] I don't think they are Astari or Maya I think they're just witches.

[01:54:59] No no no Sauron and the wizard.

[01:55:05] Yeah that's what I mean so if they're both Maya then the Sauron and this wizard guy then they might have some kind of a smell.

[01:55:15] You know power signature or whatever that would confuse these.

[01:55:18] I thought wizards were Astari and Sauron was a Maya but am I wrong and wizards are Maya?

[01:55:25] No you're both right.

[01:55:27] Astari are a form of Maya so the Maya when they're in Valinor and then they become wizards.

[01:55:34] They become Astari, the wizards who are sent.

[01:55:36] That's their form that they take when they come to Middle Earth to help the cause.

[01:55:44] Astari is like a subset of the Maya.

[01:55:47] Yeah so they are the same.

[01:55:51] Yeah I just think they're some kind of powerful mystic being but I don't think they're Maya.

[01:55:57] No no I wasn't saying they're Maya.

[01:55:59] I'm saying if Sauron and this wizard were both kind of the same type of being then these witches might confuse one for the other.

[01:56:06] Yeah no that makes sense for sure.

[01:56:09] Yeah easy to mistake it.

[01:56:10] Especially since they have a new form.

[01:56:12] No they take on a new form.

[01:56:14] Yeah.

[01:56:15] Okay Sherry, Morford says, hi Sherry.

[01:56:19] I thought this was a great finale got some answers to who Sauron is and what the stranger is.

[01:56:25] And Nori's goodbye to her family and Poppy had me crying.

[01:56:28] When she told her mom she'd be careful and her mom said no be bold.

[01:56:32] I about lost it.

[01:56:34] Can't wait to hear what y'all have to say about it so I can hear about all the stuff I'm sure I missed while watching.

[01:56:40] Thanks Sherry I felt the same when I cried also when the mom said no you'll be bold.

[01:56:47] So beautiful.

[01:56:48] Yep good performance has helped too with that they were really emotional.

[01:56:53] For sure yeah and we got some emails the first one is from Fiacra in Ireland and Fiacra says hello

[01:57:00] been listening to and enjoying the podcast all season and been meaning to write in after every episode

[01:57:04] with the end looming I thought I better stop procrastinating.

[01:57:08] One of the guys asked about the sword or key being Sauron's in an earlier episode the X-ray mentions

[01:57:13] the tower was built by men loyal to Morgoth although maybe Sauron oversaw the building of the tower

[01:57:18] and made the sword on his behalf.

[01:57:20] Since the tower was built in the first stage this would also explain why the braces were needed

[01:57:23] to hold the tower together after thousands of years.

[01:57:26] Hmm the map name change was fine we've been seeing the names of new locations on screen all season

[01:57:32] so it makes sense that Mordor would also be debuted this way.

[01:57:36] I wish people would stop obsessing over Halbrand and the stranger being Sauron.

[01:57:39] There is absolutely no way Halbrand is Sauron.

[01:57:42] I don't think we'll see him or mention any mention of the rings at all this season at most they might get a last

[01:57:47] seen reference such as Gilgallad introducing his new friend Sauron's Alvin Aelius.

[01:57:51] The showrunners themselves have said they wanted people to get to know and become invested

[01:57:55] in the world for a season before introducing the big evil.

[01:57:58] So now that I've said that online you can now expect Halbrand to go full Sauron

[01:58:01] and start badgering everyone about his new rings idea next episode.

[01:58:05] That's exactly what happened.

[01:58:07] Yeah I think Fyatra collated with feedback from...

[01:58:15] I do wish they would sit down and plan a sequence of events and travels with a map

[01:58:19] more carefully as the movements of the Numenorians made little sense the last two episodes.

[01:58:23] They were galloping east to Mordor but the sun was rising behind them.

[01:58:26] Meanwhile it was still dark in the village.

[01:58:28] If they'd gone through the future Black Gate pass and turned south and then east after rounding

[01:58:32] that spear they could have approached the village from the east and which would make it all work.

[01:58:36] But then the reverse journey in the last episode would have brought them closer to Mount Doom

[01:58:39] and they seemed to be in one and walk from escaping the smoke.

[01:58:42] Did they head to a camp prepared by the smaller group in the mountains while the main group

[01:58:46] raced towards the tower and village and then travelled the long route around to get to the

[01:58:49] ships again? It would have been easy to clarify all with a sentence or two or a quick

[01:58:53] Indiana Jones style lines moving on a map scene.

[01:58:56] I really hope the Balrog scene was just a nod to the distant future and we will not see the

[01:59:00] delving too deep in the rings of power unless they can force it back down and then explain

[01:59:03] why they never warned future generations about it or show how the records were lost.

[01:59:08] I do hope we see more Balrog somewhere though.

[01:59:10] Looking at the Middle Earth companion I see no entry for Durin IV.

[01:59:13] Could this imply that he never becomes king? Maybe ending as a Balrog snack or being

[01:59:17] exiled for treason after Deesus alarming tirade in the last episode.

[01:59:20] That was worrying. On a final note, I loved your jog on message to the haters.

[01:59:24] I've had to unsubscribe and hit do not recommend channel on YouTube quite a few times over the

[01:59:28] last two months. It's clear that many of these ardent defenders of Tolkien's legacy

[01:59:33] have either read very little, if any, of Tolkien's work or else have a surface

[01:59:36] knowledge of all the lore but no real understanding. It is shocking how often we hear them blathering

[01:59:41] on about it all being an allegory for World War I etc.

[01:59:44] When or if they had bothered to read the foreword of the Lord of the Rings did

[01:59:47] no Tolkien himself specifically denies this and talks about how much he dislikes

[01:59:50] allegories.

[01:59:52] Anyway, sorry about the long rambling email. Looking forward to your next episode and

[01:59:55] we'll miss you over the next two year wait for season 2 but now that I've discovered

[01:59:59] podcast I'll be listening to your sister shows once start of The House of the

[02:00:03] Dragon and She-Hulk after the Rings of Power finale. Awesome.

[02:00:08] That's fantastic. Wonderful! Yay!

[02:00:10] And then as I say, I think Fyatra wrote this collation of some feedback

[02:00:15] about the whole series because there was a second email that says

[02:00:19] Well, I managed to be so very wrong and yet slightly right in one paragraph.

[02:00:23] Loved this episode was totally taken in by the stranger as Sarah revealed

[02:00:27] then as soon as Hal Brand appeared in the forge I wondered if this was going to be a

[02:00:30] No, I'm Sarah on deal. It was all very well done but I'm still holding out hope

[02:00:34] the stranger is one of the blue or the brown wizard. So sad we'll be getting

[02:00:37] no more Lenny Henry but excited for season 2. No dwarves but in retrospect

[02:00:41] Deces I am Sarah on moment did feel like an end of season moment.

[02:00:45] That's fantastic. Thanks so much, Fyatra. So many great points in there.

[02:00:50] We also got another nice long email from Gail Cleary.

[02:00:54] She says Hi everyone. Well it's with a bit of a heavy heart that I am sending

[02:00:59] feedback on the last episode for two years but based on this first season

[02:01:03] I think it will be well worth the wait. This adaptation has been

[02:01:07] a wonderful exploration of Middle Earth. I keep reminding myself that

[02:01:11] this is only the first season and all the artists involved are just

[02:01:15] in the process of finding their groove learning to collaborate

[02:01:18] and growing their vision of Tolkien's world. I can't wait to see

[02:01:22] what things will look like by next season when they have really gelled as a team.

[02:01:27] Speaking of gelling let's talk about how things were blended up

[02:01:30] to achieve the desired properties in the final episode

[02:01:34] and perhaps find some answers to the most important question.

[02:01:37] Who are you? The stranger. This is both the most delightful

[02:01:42] and potentially most problematic character to ponder.

[02:01:45] The fire sisters revealed that the stranger had a veil placed in his mind

[02:01:49] when he was cast down. Well if he was cast down by celestial beings

[02:01:53] that may well be true. However it is also equally likely

[02:01:57] that he was sent down as Nori imagines and that losing memory

[02:02:01] is simply part of the process of transitioning from one realm to the next.

[02:02:06] The stranger is placed in the immediate position of having to choose

[02:02:10] whether he is evil or good. For the moment he listens to Nori

[02:02:13] who tells him labels don't matter. The question is not really who you are

[02:02:17] but what you do. Aristotle would be proud.

[02:02:21] And luckily the stranger also agrees and uses his staff

[02:02:25] to send the fire sisters back to the hell they came from.

[02:02:28] More problematically they strongly tipped the hat

[02:02:31] or the nose as it were that the stranger is Gandalf.

[02:02:35] It's too early for Gandalf. He doesn't appear until the third age.

[02:02:38] I was hoping beyond hope that the stranger was a blue wizard

[02:02:41] like Radagast or even Saruman who started off good and was later corrupted.

[02:02:46] From the point of view of fans who only watched the movies

[02:02:49] I can see why the showrunners would be tempted to make the stranger Gandalf.

[02:02:53] This would be a tectonic change though.

[02:02:55] Not to say they won't do good things with it

[02:02:58] and Gandalf is the best wizard in literature

[02:03:00] but I have some reservations about this.

[02:03:03] Galadriel. Well she is not our Galadriel yet

[02:03:06] but thankfully between dropping her rotten attitude

[02:03:09] and buying a clue she is turning into a richer character

[02:03:13] that we can start to feel invested in.

[02:03:16] She was also given a moment in which to choose who she will be.

[02:03:20] Will she alloy herself with evil?

[02:03:22] Is that a joke or a typo?

[02:03:24] I think it's a nice turn of phrase.

[02:03:26] Yeah, exactly.

[02:03:27] Will she alloy herself with evil under the pretext that she can keep it good?

[02:03:31] Well, good-ish.

[02:03:32] Well maybe not horrendously vile.

[02:03:34] Praise be that she rejects the literal devil's bargain.

[02:03:37] I've been awake since before the breaking of the first silence.

[02:03:41] Well crap.

[02:03:42] That sentence gave me a bit of an existential crisis.

[02:03:46] Glad it gave her a full on terror attack

[02:03:48] and she fought to what would have been her death had Elrond

[02:03:51] not pulled her from the river.

[02:03:53] The parallel between this choice and her later choice

[02:03:57] when offered the same amount of power by Frodo

[02:03:59] was so well conceived and constructed.

[02:04:02] Think of how great the impulse to seize that power must be

[02:04:05] if even she feared her ability to resist it a second time.

[02:04:09] It is such a giddy surprise each time the showrunners add depth

[02:04:13] to the movies I've watched at least a dozen times.

[02:04:15] One could even say they were blending them well.

[02:04:20] She goes on.

[02:04:21] Halbrand.

[02:04:22] I'm sure it came as a stunning disappointment to all the fans

[02:04:25] who thought Poppy was Sauron.

[02:04:28] That is in fact our man Halbrand.

[02:04:30] I do a little victory lap but it wouldn't feel unearned.

[02:04:33] I think the showrunners told us over and over again

[02:04:35] that he was Sauron since he was introduced.

[02:04:38] It was great fun having them toss all the red herrings at us.

[02:04:41] I hope they maintain this level of playfulness

[02:04:42] and engagement with the audience.

[02:04:45] Two.

[02:04:46] The rings.

[02:04:46] I have to say after the mousetrap level of insanity

[02:04:49] that went into crafting these,

[02:04:51] I was a bit taken aback that the rings have the look

[02:04:53] of something a child could fish out of the bottom

[02:04:55] of a box of cereal.

[02:04:57] We had better prizes back in my day during the first age.

[02:05:02] Gil Glad is obviously getting the red one.

[02:05:05] Gladreal is eventually getting the clear one

[02:05:07] and Elarond is eventually getting the blue one.

[02:05:10] I wonder if they will simply be simply given

[02:05:13] by the start of next season or if we'll get

[02:05:15] to see what leads Gil Glad to bestow the rings.

[02:05:19] Straight thoughts.

[02:05:20] Now that we're mostly done finding out about

[02:05:22] why Gandalf loves hobbits or hearfuts,

[02:05:26] I hope beyond hope that next season brings us

[02:05:28] much more solid wizard and hearfoot adventures

[02:05:31] and much less hearfoot floppin' on you-y.

[02:05:34] Me too.

[02:05:35] I hope that too.

[02:05:36] I could not help but notice that the main fire sister

[02:05:39] looked an awful lot like the witch king of Angmar

[02:05:41] while she was busy disintegrating.

[02:05:44] Did you notice that the Eye of Sauron appears

[02:05:47] in the molten metal for the rings

[02:05:49] just before the poor happens?

[02:05:51] Yes.

[02:05:53] Elarond is an orphan.

[02:05:54] Poppy is an orphan.

[02:05:56] They're both very loyal friends.

[02:05:59] Who else is excited to see Rune next season?

[02:06:03] Me.

[02:06:05] Yes.

[02:06:06] Barak is still digging.

[02:06:10] And remember kids, don't accept unasked

[02:06:13] questions for quote gifts.

[02:06:16] Namariye Gail.

[02:06:17] That's wonderful.

[02:06:18] Thanks so much Gail.

[02:06:20] I have got a couple of answers or responses

[02:06:23] to some of the things that you've said,

[02:06:24] but I'm going to leave them for the

[02:06:26] Gladriyes Mara section.

[02:06:27] Thank you again so much for your feedback

[02:06:30] and next season we really hope that you've

[02:06:31] sent us a voicemail.

[02:06:32] We want to hear what your voice sounds like.

[02:06:37] We had a couple of calls.

[02:06:39] Speaking of calls.

[02:06:41] The first is from Denise.

[02:06:44] Hi, this is Denise and I wanted to

[02:06:46] drop a voicemail to extend my thanks

[02:06:49] to the hosts of this show.

[02:06:51] I listened to this show week to week

[02:06:54] and I find it a joy to listen

[02:06:56] to both of you discuss the rings of power.

[02:06:59] I am one of those token fans who have

[02:07:02] not read any of the Legendarium prior

[02:07:04] to the Hobbit and Lord of the Rings.

[02:07:06] I have done my duty and went and

[02:07:09] purchased the Similary and the Unfinished

[02:07:11] Tales and the rest in order to prepare

[02:07:14] for season two because there were a lot

[02:07:16] of pieces in season one that I just

[02:07:18] did not understand.

[02:07:20] It is my understanding that they are

[02:07:22] also going to be publishing an exclusive

[02:07:25] book on the fall of New Menor in

[02:07:28] November and I plan to buy that as

[02:07:30] well and add that to the stack of

[02:07:32] my homework.

[02:07:33] But in the interim, I have been

[02:07:35] leveraging your podcast in order to

[02:07:38] get a better clarity on what the heck

[02:07:43] I am watching in some parts and pieces.

[02:07:45] Like if this is supposed to be a

[02:07:47] thousand years beforehand, why are we

[02:07:49] seeing Ysildur now?

[02:07:51] I know that the show is using what I

[02:07:53] like to call in Star Trek terms a

[02:07:55] slipstream timeline but even still

[02:07:58] I don't know how they are going to

[02:08:00] make some of these parts and pieces

[02:08:01] work and some of the history

[02:08:04] regarding some of these areas,

[02:08:06] some of these characters.

[02:08:07] I just didn't know but I come running

[02:08:11] to your podcast in order to understand

[02:08:13] better.

[02:08:14] So I want to say thank you and I look

[02:08:17] forward to you returning in season two

[02:08:20] and listening to you week to week.

[02:08:23] Thank you so much Denise.

[02:08:25] What a lovely phone call.

[02:08:27] That was a wonderful voicemail.

[02:08:27] That is so sweet.

[02:08:30] I feel very touched and also I hope

[02:08:33] you write in or call in again in

[02:08:35] season two with all your new knowledge

[02:08:37] from doing that homework.

[02:08:39] Fantastic and I love the Star Trek

[02:08:42] reference as well.

[02:08:43] I hope you notice the Vulcan Alph Librarian

[02:08:45] finding the scrolls for Caledriel too.

[02:08:49] If anyone else feels anything similar

[02:08:51] to that, a really great place to

[02:08:54] express that would be in the review

[02:08:57] section of Apple Podcast where you can

[02:08:59] write a review for the podcast and put

[02:09:01] it in there.

[02:09:02] Everybody else will know that you

[02:09:04] love the podcast and maybe they'll give it a shot too.

[02:09:08] Thank you.

[02:09:10] Our second voicemail is from our good friend Steve.

[02:09:14] Hello cast of the ring.

[02:09:16] This is Steve and this is for the season one finale.

[02:09:19] Wow hour and 12 minutes.

[02:09:20] It's gonna be a long one.

[02:09:21] What is this place?

[02:09:22] Is it Irring Garden?

[02:09:24] I can't speak.

[02:09:25] Oh, it's the bad ladies.

[02:09:27] They can shape shift or I don't know

[02:09:29] if they're ladies or not.

[02:09:30] Yeah, they look like ladies.

[02:09:31] OK, so the stranger is Sauron.

[02:09:33] Well, good Elrond.

[02:09:35] You're at least acknowledging that

[02:09:36] Gladgerill was right.

[02:09:37] Who is this now?

[02:09:38] Miriel with the queen with the king.

[02:09:40] Oh, so now we know the time.

[02:09:41] The great tree is dying.

[02:09:43] Crown or ring?

[02:09:45] That elven medicine really got

[02:09:48] hellbrand up and around quickly,

[02:09:49] didn't it?

[02:09:50] Hey, where's Rune?

[02:09:51] What?

[02:09:52] They just threw a knife at the old

[02:09:55] hot part foot man.

[02:09:57] Oh, don't threaten Norrie.

[02:10:00] That's his friend.

[02:10:01] But it didn't kill him and he just got

[02:10:02] that one in the foot.

[02:10:04] You throw rocks at her,

[02:10:05] she blows fire at you.

[02:10:07] Oh, the top of that staff looks like

[02:10:09] the eye.

[02:10:09] What did they just call him?

[02:10:10] Ishtar?

[02:10:11] They said he's not Sauron now.

[02:10:13] Oh, now I get it.

[02:10:14] OK, the king thought that the one

[02:10:16] girl who was whatever was his wife,

[02:10:19] the queen.

[02:10:20] OK, so the mithril is not allowing

[02:10:21] itself to be bonded to the other

[02:10:22] or that's weird.

[02:10:23] All or then a crown like a ring.

[02:10:26] What just happened?

[02:10:27] Did he send her somewhere?

[02:10:29] She changed clothes.

[02:10:31] Oh, it's in her head.

[02:10:32] This is how he's deceiving the elves

[02:10:34] by getting into their head.

[02:10:36] That was intense.

[02:10:38] OK, so Helbrand is Sauron and now

[02:10:41] where's he at?

[02:10:41] So they're going to make three crowns

[02:10:44] and the stranger has become very

[02:10:46] talkative all of a sudden.

[02:10:47] Norrie's going to go off with the

[02:10:48] stranger.

[02:10:49] Good advice, never squat by a river

[02:10:51] because you might need to drink downstream.

[02:10:53] Oh, the golden silver that's in her

[02:10:55] dagger is from Valinor.

[02:10:58] Gotcha.

[02:10:59] OK, so they did make rings and so

[02:11:01] these are the first three rings of

[02:11:02] the ten nine.

[02:11:03] How many rings are made?

[02:11:05] Oh, OK, so three rings for the elves,

[02:11:07] seven rings for the dwarves,

[02:11:08] nine for the mortal men and then

[02:11:10] one for the dark lord.

[02:11:11] Got it.

[02:11:12] Bring on season two.

[02:11:13] Nice to have this song right here

[02:11:14] at the end to kind of explain

[02:11:15] everything for me.

[02:11:17] Can't wait to hear you guys

[02:11:18] talk about it later.

[02:11:21] Thanks, Steve.

[02:11:23] That's wonderful.

[02:11:24] I love how it tied it all in

[02:11:26] together for you, Steve, at the end.

[02:11:27] That's brilliant.

[02:11:27] Thank you so much for your voice

[02:11:29] mail all season.

[02:11:30] They've been fantastic.

[02:11:31] We love a good life, Steve.

[02:11:35] Thanks everyone for all that

[02:11:36] incredible feedback.

[02:11:37] We've really, really enjoyed

[02:11:39] hearing what you will have to think

[02:11:40] about the show itself and also

[02:11:43] about our podcast.

[02:11:44] So we really appreciate it.

[02:11:45] Thank you.

[02:11:46] And even though this season has

[02:11:48] finished, we still really want to

[02:11:49] hear what you think.

[02:11:49] So if you feel like you had

[02:11:51] something to say but you didn't

[02:11:52] get it in in time,

[02:11:53] please still send us feedback.

[02:11:54] You can find all our contact

[02:11:56] information at podcast.com

[02:11:58] and we will promise to play

[02:12:01] there or read it out on some

[02:12:02] future episodes.

[02:12:03] While you're there, please be

[02:12:05] sure to check out our other shows.

[02:12:07] There's a bunch of them.

[02:12:08] Yeah.

[02:12:09] Well, as I mentioned,

[02:12:10] She-Hulk also concluded this

[02:12:13] week with a great finale

[02:12:14] episode.

[02:12:15] So, you know, check out She-Hulk

[02:12:17] Cast if you're a fan of

[02:12:19] silly superhero stories.

[02:12:23] Or Penny.

[02:12:23] Or me.

[02:12:24] My friends are pinning, so listen to the show.

[02:12:27] And I personally

[02:12:30] really enjoying House of the Dragon.

[02:12:32] It's another show

[02:12:33] with lots of lore behind it

[02:12:36] and on the Dragon Cast,

[02:12:38] Rima and Kristen and Renny,

[02:12:40] they just spell it all out

[02:12:43] and fill you in

[02:12:45] on all the backstory and the history.

[02:12:47] It's really interesting to listen to.

[02:12:49] We're giving them a run for their money

[02:12:50] on episode length this time though.

[02:12:52] Yeah, we are.

[02:12:54] Don't forget to 3 hours, but let's see.

[02:12:58] I find their podcast so helpful

[02:13:00] because I love the stories,

[02:13:02] but I'm not a book reader

[02:13:03] of the Game of Thrones books.

[02:13:05] And, you know, sometimes,

[02:13:07] especially with this last season being

[02:13:09] so kind of time-jumpy

[02:13:12] and so many different people,

[02:13:13] they all kind of look the same

[02:13:14] and have got similar names

[02:13:15] and they're talking really fast

[02:13:17] about their relationships

[02:13:18] and who's doing what to who.

[02:13:19] And I really find the podcast

[02:13:21] helpful to tease it all out for me.

[02:13:23] I also want to mention

[02:13:25] because if you are a fan of Penny,

[02:13:28] we're about to start a new podcast

[02:13:29] that's something pretty different

[02:13:31] from Rings of Power,

[02:13:32] but there's a Netflix show

[02:13:34] called Dead to Me that stars

[02:13:36] Christina Applegate and Linda Cardellini

[02:13:39] and it's kind of a dark comedy.

[02:13:42] It's very dry.

[02:13:43] I really enjoy it.

[02:13:45] It's got a lot of mystery elements to it.

[02:13:47] Two seasons have already aired

[02:13:49] and they're about to air the third

[02:13:50] and final season in November.

[02:13:52] And so Penny and me and Jade,

[02:13:55] our friend Jade,

[02:13:56] are going to cover the first two seasons

[02:13:58] over the course of like four episodes

[02:14:00] and then jump into season three

[02:14:02] once it comes out.

[02:14:03] So that'll be coming up soon.

[02:14:05] Thanks, Jason.

[02:14:06] And if you've enjoyed Jason

[02:14:07] today on

[02:14:10] Cast of the Rings,

[02:14:11] you might want to check out

[02:14:12] the Podcastica flagship show,

[02:14:15] Walking Dead Cast,

[02:14:16] where he weekly covers

[02:14:18] whatever random stuff

[02:14:20] the Walking Dead universe is putting out.

[02:14:22] Right now it's the final eight episodes

[02:14:24] of the last season

[02:14:26] and it's pretty exciting.

[02:14:30] Yeah, we've been...

[02:14:31] That's kind of where this all started.

[02:14:32] If you didn't know Podcastica

[02:14:35] 12 years ago,

[02:14:36] my friend Karen and I decided

[02:14:38] it would be fun to do a podcast

[02:14:39] and we started with the Walking Dead

[02:14:41] about three months before

[02:14:42] the show first aired

[02:14:44] and have podcasted about every episode since.

[02:14:46] And it spawned all these other amazing,

[02:14:49] fantastic

[02:14:51] and interesting podcasts

[02:14:52] that cover so many different TV shows.

[02:14:54] So you can find all of that

[02:14:55] at Podcastica.com

[02:14:56] all the shows that we cover

[02:14:58] and hopefully

[02:14:59] if this is the first way you've found us

[02:15:01] that might be a gateway for you

[02:15:02] to discover some more of the

[02:15:04] fantastic shows that we cover as well.

[02:15:06] And for this podcast

[02:15:08] as we discussed it is ages

[02:15:10] until the next season

[02:15:11] of the show comes out

[02:15:13] potentially up to two years.

[02:15:14] So what we'd love to do is for you to keep us

[02:15:17] in your feed because we will be popping back

[02:15:19] in every few weeks or so.

[02:15:21] We're going to...

[02:15:22] We're planning to review all three Lord of the Rings

[02:15:24] movies and the Hobbit movies

[02:15:26] along with some surprise episodes here and there

[02:15:29] to just keep us all excited during the long wait.

[02:15:31] It might be every month or so.

[02:15:34] We'll see what the timeline is, but

[02:15:35] keep us current because we want to make sure

[02:15:38] that we keep all of the listeners

[02:15:40] and keep ourselves excited

[02:15:42] and ready for the next season.

[02:15:44] So as I mentioned if you would like to

[02:15:46] put in some feedback regarding

[02:15:49] this last season

[02:15:50] then please do so and then we'll also put out

[02:15:52] on our Facebook pages

[02:15:55] about timings for when we're going to be doing those.

[02:15:57] So we'll give you plenty of wanting

[02:15:58] to send us some feedback if you want to do the

[02:16:00] rewatch of the movies with us.

[02:16:02] I'm excited to watch the Lord of the Rings

[02:16:04] movies. I've seen...

[02:16:06] Well, the Hobbit I've probably only seen once or twice

[02:16:08] each but the Lord of the Rings movies I have

[02:16:10] probably seen 20 or more

[02:16:12] times each and so I am

[02:16:15] super excited to do a rewatch

[02:16:16] with all of this extra information

[02:16:18] that we've gained not only from the Rings of Power

[02:16:20] Show but from all the extra research

[02:16:22] that I've been doing along the way. I don't hold

[02:16:24] all this stuff in my head in case anyone wondered

[02:16:26] that. Each week I have been doing lots

[02:16:28] of diving into the books and background

[02:16:31] information and the amount

[02:16:32] that I've learnt has been so thrilling to me

[02:16:34] and to kind of lend that to

[02:16:36] all the little lines that they say

[02:16:38] in the Lord of the Rings movies that

[02:16:39] Harkinback to this history

[02:16:41] is going to be really gratifying I think

[02:16:43] to be able to watch that so it's going to be really cool, really fun.

[02:16:46] If you decide to cover that

[02:16:47] old Hobbit cartoon, I don't know if it's

[02:16:49] still available but I could come on

[02:16:51] and be reverted back to a child again.

[02:16:54] Yeah, that'd be fun.

[02:16:56] There's lots of other things too.

[02:16:58] As well there's the radio plays and there's

[02:16:59] a whole bunch of different ones so yeah

[02:17:02] we'll be here waiting.

[02:17:04] So we

[02:17:05] did have a lot revealed in this episode

[02:17:09] secrets and things that have come up

[02:17:11] that we've had confirmed.

[02:17:12] So there's probably a little bit less to discuss

[02:17:14] in the Galadrials mirror section

[02:17:16] but we do want to have a chat about a few things

[02:17:18] so we're going to speculate about what

[02:17:20] we might see next season.

[02:17:21] So if you don't mind possible spoilers

[02:17:24] for future seasons please

[02:17:25] join us right now for Galadrials mirror.

[02:17:39] And some things

[02:17:41] that have not yet come to pass.

[02:17:44] And this is where we're going to discuss

[02:17:45] how the show compares with the book

[02:17:47] and some of the things that we think might

[02:17:48] happen next based on the source material.

[02:17:52] So I guess

[02:17:53] we've got a bit to talk about with the rings.

[02:17:56] We

[02:17:57] talked about the making of these three elven rings

[02:17:59] so in the book

[02:18:01] it's slightly different.

[02:18:02] Saron comes to the elves and he tells them

[02:18:04] that he was sent by the villa

[02:18:06] to help them

[02:18:07] and he shows them how to make these various rings

[02:18:09] and they actually first make the seven

[02:18:11] for the dwarven lords and nine for the kings of men

[02:18:13] and those are made by

[02:18:15] Lessa

[02:18:17] Smiths, not by Calibur himself.

[02:18:20] So we haven't seen them mentioned

[02:18:21] we haven't seen them shown here.

[02:18:23] I wonder if they're going to appear later

[02:18:24] or they're going to be revealed that they've already been made.

[02:18:28] It seems

[02:18:29] from the way they showed

[02:18:31] this particular object being made

[02:18:33] that

[02:18:34] they didn't mention rings until

[02:18:37] kind of really until

[02:18:38] Calbrand slash Saron had left.

[02:18:40] So I don't think they've shown them being made

[02:18:43] or that they even implied it

[02:18:45] so it will be really fascinating to see

[02:18:47] what they do with those because they have

[02:18:49] to sort of feature

[02:18:50] in future seasons to help lead to

[02:18:53] sort of the greedy dwarves

[02:18:54] and the creation of the Nazgul

[02:18:57] those nine ringwraiths

[02:18:59] who

[02:19:01] kings of men who are turned

[02:19:02] who appear before

[02:19:04] the war of the last alliance.

[02:19:06] One of the things that I did read

[02:19:07] because everyone keeps saying

[02:19:09] oh the Nazgul

[02:19:12] the witch king

[02:19:13] has to be a king before he's turned

[02:19:15] well actually in the writings if you read it

[02:19:17] it doesn't say that they were kings first

[02:19:18] it actually says that they received these rings

[02:19:21] and that they were kings

[02:19:23] potentially they rose to power

[02:19:25] because of the help of the rings

[02:19:27] so it will be quite interesting to see

[02:19:29] what they do with Theo in that regard

[02:19:30] because I have heard a few people say they think

[02:19:32] that Theo might end up becoming one of the

[02:19:34] the witch kings so

[02:19:35] wait and see what happens with that.

[02:19:37] See I was looking through the wiki and I read

[02:19:39] something a little different but it's on a wiki

[02:19:41] but it's the Lord of the Rings wiki you'd think that they would

[02:19:44] It's generally pretty accurate.

[02:19:46] Yeah so I read

[02:19:47] that the rings were all

[02:19:50] created for the elves originally

[02:19:53] and that it wasn't until there was

[02:19:54] open warfare with Sauron

[02:19:56] that the other rings went to men and dwarves

[02:19:59] that they were

[02:20:00] all originally forged for and by elves

[02:20:03] with Sauron's help except for the one ring

[02:20:04] and that

[02:20:07] when Sauron

[02:20:08] puts on the one ring the elves are immediately

[02:20:10] aware of him and take their rings off

[02:20:12] and they hide the three and pass one

[02:20:15] to the dwarves and Sauron gets

[02:20:16] angry and eventually recovers all

[02:20:18] the rings except for the three we just

[02:20:21] saw created for

[02:20:22] the elves and the one given to the dwarves

[02:20:24] and then it says six he gave to

[02:20:26] dwarves for seven in total

[02:20:28] but nine he gave to men knowing they would most easily

[02:20:31] bend to his will in time the nine

[02:20:32] men to whom the rings were given became ring

[02:20:34] wraiths or Nazgul

[02:20:36] the dwarves lords to whom the

[02:20:38] seven were given became wealthy beyond measure

[02:20:40] but they did not fall to Sauron's power they were

[02:20:42] essentially too tough in spirit to be dominated

[02:20:45] by the will of another even

[02:20:46] Sauron however the rings kindled in them

[02:20:48] an overwhelming greed for treasure and so

[02:20:50] the ruin was brought to each regardless

[02:20:53] but that's not what you just

[02:20:54] said that they were

[02:20:56] you said the dwarves

[02:20:58] and the men those rings were created first

[02:21:01] well no so they weren't

[02:21:02] created for the dwarves and the

[02:21:04] men to start with your oh but they were

[02:21:06] just created first they were created

[02:21:08] so they may have three over rings

[02:21:10] yeah so basically they made a bunch

[02:21:12] of rings and then once

[02:21:14] once they realized that Sauron

[02:21:16] was up to no good the elves made the three in secret

[02:21:18] he didn't know about them okay didn't know about the

[02:21:21] three elven rings and once he

[02:21:22] made the one ring

[02:21:24] he put it on they could sense that

[02:21:27] he'd made the one he knew by wearing

[02:21:29] that because it had dominion over the three

[02:21:31] he knew that they had made

[02:21:33] them and so they immediately took them off and hit them

[02:21:35] and then as you say

[02:21:37] the other rings ended up

[02:21:39] going to it was

[02:21:41] part of Sauron's plan to try and dominate everybody

[02:21:43] so he was able to recover these

[02:21:45] other rings that had been made these lesser rings

[02:21:47] and then dish them out to the dwarves

[02:21:49] and to the men

[02:21:51] and yeah I can't wait to see what they're going to do

[02:21:53] with that because again

[02:21:54] that could take a while but there's been so much

[02:21:57] condensing of the timeline in this

[02:21:58] story that we don't really know

[02:22:01] and in the book they make

[02:22:03] a bunch of the other rings and then it's

[02:22:05] another hundred years before they make the three

[02:22:07] rings and then it's another hundred years after that

[02:22:08] till he makes the one ring and then it's yeah there's all

[02:22:11] these long long gaps

[02:22:12] so they can kind of do what they want with the timeline

[02:22:14] if they're being free and easy with it

[02:22:16] and now that I've seen the whole first season

[02:22:19] I trust that they're going to do that in a way

[02:22:20] that makes sense for the story

[02:22:22] and again it's just really maintaining the theme

[02:22:25] without

[02:22:26] you know

[02:22:28] even if you have to play with the details

[02:22:29] yeah because they have these characters that they want us

[02:22:32] to feel connected to and they don't want

[02:22:34] to just say okay a hundred years later

[02:22:36] new cast except for the elves

[02:22:38] they want to show their whole story

[02:22:40] throughout the whole thing probably

[02:22:41] exactly yeah

[02:22:42] it was interesting to me at the end that they show

[02:22:45] the three rings with the three elves standing

[02:22:47] there around them implying that

[02:22:49] each ring was for each of them

[02:22:51] that's quite different to the

[02:22:53] book the ring of

[02:22:55] water we talked about Nenya the

[02:22:57] Mithril one with the stone of adamance the silvery kind of one

[02:22:59] that was only ever worn by

[02:23:01] Galadriel she's the only one who

[02:23:03] has that ring but the

[02:23:05] ring of fire the ruby one

[02:23:07] is originally worn by the ship builder

[02:23:09] elf Kurdan and Kurdan

[02:23:11] will appear in the next season he's been cast

[02:23:14] they haven't announced the casting yet but he is going to be

[02:23:16] an important character

[02:23:18] he has the ring initially

[02:23:20] and then he later gives it to Gandalf

[02:23:21] so Gandalf in the time of the Lord of the Rings

[02:23:24] movies and the horror movies actually has it

[02:23:25] in his position

[02:23:26] and do we see that on him

[02:23:29] at the very end

[02:23:31] or not I'm not sure

[02:23:33] you definitely see Galadriel's one

[02:23:35] because I don't think he's wearing it because he's afraid

[02:23:37] but I thought maybe at the very end but I don't know yeah

[02:23:41] when they're all getting on the ships

[02:23:42] maybe yeah

[02:23:44] yeah again that'll be a great way

[02:23:46] great thing to look out for when we

[02:23:48] rewatch I think we're going to be more

[02:23:50] more aware of

[02:23:52] the rings and when we watch

[02:23:53] the Lord of the Rings movies again

[02:23:56] the third ring the ring of air

[02:23:58] that was the one with the sapphire stone

[02:24:00] is originally worn by

[02:24:02] Galadriel and then he later gives it to Elrond

[02:24:04] so

[02:24:05] I think he died and then it was passed to Elrond

[02:24:08] yeah

[02:24:08] so he

[02:24:09] Kala Bramboy is there with his

[02:24:12] Dolem-like look like you said

[02:24:14] looking quite excited about these rings

[02:24:16] he doesn't get the rings so

[02:24:18] it will be interesting to see what they do in the show

[02:24:21] with who gets to keep them

[02:24:22] and whether that's important

[02:24:25] or whether they just go with

[02:24:26] directly what happens in

[02:24:28] the book and I do feel

[02:24:31] glad that they have announced that

[02:24:33] Curedown's going to be part of it because I sort of want

[02:24:35] I think the rings are so important that you do have to keep

[02:24:37] quite close to the intent

[02:24:39] and the purpose of the story for that

[02:24:42] anything else on the rings

[02:24:43] that we haven't touched on?

[02:24:45] I was just going to agree with

[02:24:46] the listener who said that they looked

[02:24:49] cheap

[02:24:51] I was sort of disappointed

[02:24:53] by the actual rings themselves

[02:24:55] I thought the stones looked cheap

[02:24:57] like just paste

[02:24:59] like costume jewelry and

[02:25:01] and that the

[02:25:02] the silver ring

[02:25:04] I didn't mind but the other two

[02:25:06] just seemed they looked like class rings

[02:25:09] like that

[02:25:10] they just didn't look that special to me

[02:25:14] yeah I agree

[02:25:14] they didn't have the same

[02:25:17] I don't know if weight is the right word

[02:25:18] but they didn't seem to have the same

[02:25:20] serious quality or

[02:25:23] fine quality that we would expect

[02:25:24] and you know we've seen these finally wrought pieces of

[02:25:27] jewelry in this show before

[02:25:28] and in the Peter Jackson

[02:25:30] version

[02:25:31] there is Nenya Galadriel's ring

[02:25:34] and that was visible

[02:25:36] in the show but also that they released it later

[02:25:39] as part of the official

[02:25:40] line of jewelry that you could buy

[02:25:42] along with the even star that

[02:25:44] that Arwen wore and that version of the ring

[02:25:47] looks very elven

[02:25:48] it's beautiful with lots of little filigree kind of parts around it

[02:25:51] delicate looking kind of

[02:25:52] yeah yeah and I would have kind of expected

[02:25:55] to see that with the other two rings

[02:25:56] as well they didn't look like they fit

[02:25:59] in the kind of style of the world that has been

[02:26:01] created in both the movies

[02:26:03] and the shows

[02:26:04] that's true I hadn't thought of that until you guys were all

[02:26:07] saying it now I like it less

[02:26:10] sorry

[02:26:11] hey there's what it is

[02:26:12] yeah they look like bubblegum

[02:26:15] prizes

[02:26:15] I always enjoy though a forge

[02:26:19] a forge theme

[02:26:20] I love watching the like melted metal

[02:26:23] like flow through the channel

[02:26:25] and then down the thing

[02:26:26] and then the hammer banging open the mold

[02:26:29] every time I see that

[02:26:30] in a movie or a TV show

[02:26:32] it's like my favorite part

[02:26:34] and it was so beautiful that forge how

[02:26:36] the molten metal went around those swirly kind of

[02:26:39] complicated patterns

[02:26:40] to fall down into the mold that was beautiful

[02:26:42] yeah

[02:26:44] so the rings, the things I find

[02:26:46] interesting about them are

[02:26:49] who

[02:26:50] they went to which you mentioned

[02:26:52] and you know

[02:26:54] how they were made and everything but also

[02:26:56] what powers they have because we know

[02:26:58] that the one ring will turn

[02:27:00] you invisible and then it will kind of

[02:27:02] scrape away at your soul

[02:27:04] over time and it also connects

[02:27:06] you directly with sauron

[02:27:08] and everything and these

[02:27:10] rings are so mysterious but

[02:27:12] what the wiki said

[02:27:14] was Narya the gold one

[02:27:16] with the red stone

[02:27:18] that eventually went to Gandalf

[02:27:20] but first went to Kerdan

[02:27:22] what's described as having the power to inspire

[02:27:24] others to resist tyranny, domination

[02:27:26] and despair in other words

[02:27:28] evoking hope from others around the wielder

[02:27:30] as well as giving resistance

[02:27:32] to the weariness of time

[02:27:34] but this is all just sort of

[02:27:36] vague stuff by the way they may

[02:27:38] it might shoot fire

[02:27:39] you know in the next season who knows

[02:27:43] Nenya

[02:27:44] the

[02:27:46] mithril one with the white stone

[02:27:48] or diamond maybe

[02:27:49] it has the power

[02:27:52] of preservation and protection

[02:27:54] gladrile use these powers to create

[02:27:56] sustain Lothlórien

[02:27:58] which is the next

[02:28:00] home right of the elves in Middle Earth

[02:28:03] and that's the one she's had the whole time

[02:28:06] as Antoine said

[02:28:07] and then Vilja is the strongest

[02:28:09] of the rings and

[02:28:12] I guess the exact power of that one's not

[02:28:15] not mentioned

[02:28:16] but there's some speculation that it controlled

[02:28:18] minor elements

[02:28:19] considering when Elrond summoned

[02:28:22] a torrent of water as the Nazgul

[02:28:24] attempted to invade Rivendell

[02:28:26] and it could have also possessed the power

[02:28:28] to see into the future as Elrond had

[02:28:30] the gift of foresight

[02:28:31] Yeah I like those

[02:28:34] it would be fascinating to see what they do with it

[02:28:37] and I am hopeful

[02:28:39] that they don't make them too

[02:28:41] overtly magical in terms of

[02:28:43] like say shooting fire or

[02:28:44] you know

[02:28:47] Cheap in the feel of it right

[02:28:49] Yeah I think it's better when it's subtle

[02:28:51] it's sort of like Gandalf on the bridge

[02:28:52] with the Balrog

[02:28:54] he commands and

[02:28:56] has some influence

[02:28:58] over fire due to his ring

[02:29:01] but it's not like

[02:29:02] actually shooting fire out of it

[02:29:04] it's better when it's subtle

[02:29:06] Yeah it's like with the one ring

[02:29:08] it just really weighs on

[02:29:10] Frodo's soul and it just feels like the existence

[02:29:13] of that ring

[02:29:14] creates a bad feeling

[02:29:16] you know and it's more about that

[02:29:18] it's like hope versus dread

[02:29:20] kind of thing that the rings inspire

[02:29:23] Yeah that Gandalf has this ring

[02:29:25] that helps to inspire hope

[02:29:26] and others and that's kind of his role in the story

[02:29:29] isn't it that he

[02:29:31] inspires hope

[02:29:32] and sort of action as well on some of the other

[02:29:34] races

[02:29:35] For sure

[02:29:37] What I don't understand is how these rings

[02:29:40] address the problem

[02:29:42] of the elves all dying

[02:29:44] like

[02:29:45] imminently in the spring

[02:29:47] they never really say like and then

[02:29:49] now the power of the mythril has been

[02:29:52] channeled and we can use it

[02:29:54] to heal all the elves

[02:29:56] it's like that problem went away

[02:29:58] It just seems like

[02:30:00] the existence of the rings

[02:30:02] staves off this fading

[02:30:03] Yeah they showed it very obviously

[02:30:06] with the mythril healing

[02:30:08] that leaf as a clue

[02:30:10] that was powerful and that was going to work

[02:30:12] so I think the idea that they've implied

[02:30:14] here is that initially they wanted

[02:30:16] to, they talked about

[02:30:18] saturating the elves with the power

[02:30:20] of this mythril

[02:30:22] I think the idea

[02:30:24] and they haven't said it overtly but I think the idea

[02:30:26] they're trying to get across is that if three

[02:30:28] of the most powerful elves are

[02:30:30] wearing these rings it gives some kind

[02:30:32] of protection to their whole

[02:30:34] race or their whole people

[02:30:35] to sort of stave off the darkness

[02:30:37] but they haven't said it explicitly

[02:30:39] It's like a passive power that just kind of happens

[02:30:41] and maybe

[02:30:43] they're not saying explicitly because it's not canon

[02:30:45] so it's kind of like the rings are there

[02:30:47] to protect them, yes they're there

[02:30:49] to protect them, they are

[02:30:51] the other rings are there for a sauron

[02:30:53] to dominate others but

[02:30:56] the rings themselves

[02:30:57] are not made of mythril

[02:30:59] to stop the elves from dying

[02:31:01] that's kind of a show thing

[02:31:03] an acceleration or an exaggeration

[02:31:05] of what's in the books

[02:31:06] But the books do say that once he put on

[02:31:09] the one ring he could

[02:31:10] tell the thoughts of the elves who were

[02:31:12] wearing the rings of power so they took them out

[02:31:14] off. Definitely, yes so he had

[02:31:16] domination over them where he had power, they linked to them

[02:31:19] and that's why

[02:31:21] the elves are able

[02:31:23] to wear them after

[02:31:25] when they know that sauron doesn't have

[02:31:27] the ring. Doesn't have it, yeah

[02:31:29] Yeah

[02:31:31] Alright, I wanted to

[02:31:33] briefly touch on

[02:31:35] Farazon

[02:31:36] so we see Farazon just

[02:31:38] really briefly in this episode

[02:31:41] instructing

[02:31:42] the stone masons

[02:31:44] or the artists to

[02:31:46] build a tomb for

[02:31:48] the king. They want

[02:31:50] to grant him the immortality and stone

[02:31:52] that no man, not even a king

[02:31:54] can attain in life. He gets

[02:31:56] this really intense look on his face

[02:31:58] when he sees this line and he is beginning to show his

[02:32:01] obsession with immortality

[02:32:02] and we're going to see this later

[02:32:05] in later seasons

[02:32:06] it's going to play a big part in the story of

[02:32:08] Numenor and as this is the spoiler section

[02:32:10] I can say what I want

[02:32:12] but yeah, we know later on

[02:32:14] that Farazon gets, becomes obsessed

[02:32:16] with immortality

[02:32:17] and basically goes to

[02:32:19] Valinor to demand that

[02:32:22] the Numenorians are given immortality like

[02:32:24] the elves

[02:32:25] and I just love what they're doing

[02:32:28] early, seeding the ideas

[02:32:29] of Farazon being

[02:32:31] having this obsession

[02:32:32] and this greed for immortality. I think they're doing it really

[02:32:35] cleverly and I think he's not too

[02:32:37] moustache twirling at this point

[02:32:38] but that if you know the story you can see it in him

[02:32:41] I think it's really well done, really well

[02:32:42] acted as well.

[02:32:46] I had a little bit more about the

[02:32:49] stranger and the three

[02:32:51] mystics so we talked

[02:32:52] about them coming from the east

[02:32:54] and in the books they do mention

[02:32:57] that the blue wizards were said to have

[02:32:58] settled in rune and that they may

[02:33:00] have formed mystic cults

[02:33:02] so this really works with the story

[02:33:04] at first I kind of thought, oh these

[02:33:06] mystical creatures, they're not like

[02:33:08] anything we've seen on screen before

[02:33:10] they didn't really even seem to be very close

[02:33:12] to anything that we've read about

[02:33:14] but it works if they have

[02:33:16] had blue wizards before

[02:33:19] or they are

[02:33:20] looking for Sauron

[02:33:22] or there's a lot of connection there

[02:33:24] with coming out of the east

[02:33:25] and what the showrunners have said about

[02:33:28] exploring areas of Middle-earth that we've never seen before

[02:33:30] it's going to be exciting to see what they do

[02:33:32] with Rune and what that looks like

[02:33:33] and what's going to happen there.

[02:33:36] Gail brought up about the stranger

[02:33:39] in her

[02:33:40] email too and I just wanted to address that a little bit

[02:33:43] so firstly

[02:33:44] the Astari are sent

[02:33:46] to Middle-earth by

[02:33:48] the Valar to assist

[02:33:50] against the evil

[02:33:52] that's there. So they're there to

[02:33:54] help the races of

[02:33:56] Middle-earth to defeat evil

[02:33:57] they're not allowed to directly intervene

[02:34:00] but they can assist and help them

[02:34:02] and encourage them to do things

[02:34:04] when I say directly intervene, they're not allowed to

[02:34:05] basically go and have a one on one battle

[02:34:08] with Sauron to try and kill them, they basically

[02:34:09] have to help the people to do it themselves

[02:34:13] and Tolkien mentions

[02:34:14] that when the Astari are sent

[02:34:15] they are disoriented at first

[02:34:18] because they have to get used to being in a corporeal form

[02:34:21] and so that's why we see

[02:34:22] them looking

[02:34:25] confused and not knowing how to speak

[02:34:27] in things. So the big question is

[02:34:28] who is it?

[02:34:31] Izzy Gandalf, there was

[02:34:32] mentioned from the very beginning that he could be Gandalf

[02:34:35] we've kind of toed and froed on that all the way through

[02:34:38] there are lots and lots of clues there

[02:34:40] I actually love

[02:34:41] how they're not naming him

[02:34:43] directly yet and even to the point

[02:34:46] of the mystic saying

[02:34:47] he is the other, he's a star

[02:34:49] he is and they go to say his name

[02:34:52] and then he goes I am good

[02:34:54] so I love that they didn't

[02:34:56] because it can still go

[02:34:58] either way. So

[02:34:59] it can actually work, a lot of people are saying

[02:35:01] it's way too early for Gandalf

[02:35:04] he didn't show up until a thousand years into

[02:35:05] the third age.

[02:35:07] Well there's a couple of reasons why that doesn't have

[02:35:10] to be a problem. One is that

[02:35:11] they are just massively condensing the timeline

[02:35:13] in this show.

[02:35:16] If a seal door and a lend deal

[02:35:17] are 1500 years too early

[02:35:20] why can't Gandalf be 2000 years too early?

[02:35:22] So I don't think that's enough

[02:35:24] of a reason for it to not be

[02:35:26] the other reason why it can work

[02:35:28] with Canon is that

[02:35:29] while it's believed that Gandalf and the other maya

[02:35:31] were sent to Middle-Earth in the third age

[02:35:34] to help with the rise of Sauron

[02:35:35] Tolkien actually did hint that some of the maya

[02:35:38] or Astari may have been to Middle-Earth

[02:35:40] before this point. In the book

[02:35:42] The History of Middle-Earth it is mentioned that a being

[02:35:44] named Olauren which is Gandalf's actual name

[02:35:47] became acquainted with Alves and Men

[02:35:48] before the events of the third age.

[02:35:51] So it's possible that

[02:35:52] that fits still with the Canon. This is

[02:35:54] just one of his earlier visitations

[02:35:56] so it could be

[02:35:58] that they reveal the strangest name as Olauren

[02:36:01] pre-Gandalf

[02:36:02] and that the show could end with him

[02:36:04] returning to the villa

[02:36:05] and then he could be sent again as Gandalf

[02:36:08] in the third age. So it can work

[02:36:10] I think they've dropped

[02:36:12] a huge number of clues

[02:36:14] that it is that they're pointing

[02:36:16] towards it being Gandalf.

[02:36:18] We talked already about the air-smelling

[02:36:20] sweeter and just follow your nose.

[02:36:22] Some of the things that he says to Nori

[02:36:24] about they agree upon

[02:36:26] about finding your own path

[02:36:27] and doing what you can with the time that's given

[02:36:29] all that kind of stuff.

[02:36:32] His use of fire

[02:36:33] control over fire, the

[02:36:36] moths that they put in there as well

[02:36:38] at the end, those creatures

[02:36:40] just disintegrating

[02:36:42] into moths is a bit of a callback

[02:36:45] to Gandalf talking

[02:36:46] to the moths.

[02:36:47] He's wearing these big grey cloaks, he looks kind of similar

[02:36:50] I mean all wizards kind of look wizzy, right?

[02:36:52] But I'm open to him

[02:36:54] still being another type of wizard

[02:36:56] if he turns out to be one of the blue wizards

[02:36:57] and that's great. I am far less

[02:37:00] worried about him being Gandalf if he is.

[02:37:02] At the start I was really opposed to it

[02:37:03] and now I can actually see how they've

[02:37:05] worked it in that if it is him

[02:37:07] I'm okay with it.

[02:37:09] Any other thoughts?

[02:37:11] I want it to be a different wizard just because

[02:37:13] we only ever get

[02:37:15] to meet Gandalf

[02:37:17] in the books and then they added

[02:37:19] Radagast into the Hobbit movie

[02:37:21] even though I don't think you ever meet him in the book, they just mention him.

[02:37:24] And

[02:37:25] I have always wanted to meet all the other

[02:37:27] wizards. I've been dying

[02:37:29] to meet them my whole life so

[02:37:30] I kind of hope it's not Gandalf just so that there's like

[02:37:33] another wizard that we get to meet

[02:37:35] but I'm fine with it either way.

[02:37:38] I feel the same.

[02:37:39] And I think hopefully

[02:37:41] Frodo is not in it, it's Nori

[02:37:43] so hopefully people are okay if there's

[02:37:45] another wizard and they're not like, I want Gandalf

[02:37:47] I don't think he... I think, I don't know

[02:37:49] I'm a novelty seeker so

[02:37:51] I'd rather see something that we haven't seen before

[02:37:54] It would be an earlier version

[02:37:55] so that would be different but

[02:37:57] we know there's five Ishtar sent

[02:37:59] to Middle Earth to aid against

[02:38:01] the threat of evil and Sauron

[02:38:03] and that's Gandalf, Saruman

[02:38:06] Radagast the Brown

[02:38:07] and the two blue wizards

[02:38:08] and the two blue wizards are the ones that we

[02:38:11] basically just know that there were two blue wizards

[02:38:13] as far as I know that's it

[02:38:14] but I think he's one of the blue wizards because

[02:38:17] they... it's canon

[02:38:19] that they came in the second age. You're right

[02:38:21] they're not really going with canon and

[02:38:22] they could just decide to bring

[02:38:25] Gandalf in to condense

[02:38:27] the timeline or as you said maybe he visited earlier

[02:38:29] but

[02:38:31] we do know that they came in the second age

[02:38:33] and there hasn't been much written about them

[02:38:36] so they could more... they could

[02:38:37] you know make up whatever they want

[02:38:40] and it would still

[02:38:42] you know not go against the text or anything

[02:38:44] also the actor has blue eyes

[02:38:46] so maybe that's a clue there

[02:38:48] and

[02:38:49] when asked by Vanity Fair

[02:38:51] whether the stranger is secretly

[02:38:54] Saruman, Radagast or Gandalf

[02:38:56] showrunner Patrick McKay said

[02:38:58] I would say those are not the only beings

[02:39:00] those names in that class

[02:39:02] so

[02:39:03] I don't know who knows if he's being

[02:39:06] honest but um

[02:39:07] that seems like a pretty big hint that it's not

[02:39:09] one of them.

[02:39:11] Yeah and the whole argument that art has to

[02:39:14] began off because he likes

[02:39:16] the half-whats and that means that he's got

[02:39:18] the affinity later with

[02:39:19] Hobbits, that could just be that all

[02:39:22] wizards who come along have an affinity with all creatures

[02:39:24] and all beings and that especially

[02:39:26] the

[02:39:27] not weaker but the less impactful

[02:39:30] races of Middle Earth need the most help

[02:39:32] and so they

[02:39:33] have that kind of closeness and that connection

[02:39:36] and maybe they all like sweet smells too

[02:39:39] Yeah

[02:39:39] they'll follow their nose so that could be it

[02:39:42] yeah they could go either way

[02:39:44] but I think either way they do go

[02:39:46] I think it's great that they haven't named him

[02:39:47] yet and again it's that little mystery

[02:39:50] to keep us going until

[02:39:51] the next season

[02:39:53] which is pretty cool

[02:39:55] um

[02:39:56] that's all I had for the

[02:39:58] people wanted to talk about

[02:40:01] um oh actually I have one more little

[02:40:03] point just about what

[02:40:05] I guess what happens next and any speculation

[02:40:07] about what they're going to do with the structure

[02:40:09] of the next four seasons so they have four

[02:40:11] seasons left to get up

[02:40:13] to basically

[02:40:15] describe or explain that they are going to

[02:40:17] take us right up to the

[02:40:19] the prologue of the Lord of the Rings

[02:40:21] movies so we're going to kind of

[02:40:23] end with

[02:40:25] the last alliance of elves

[02:40:28] and men so we're going to see

[02:40:30] you know the whole

[02:40:31] Isildur cutting the ring off the hand and all that kind of stuff

[02:40:33] but there's a lot of stuff that happens to lead

[02:40:35] up to there. Sauron's got to build up his

[02:40:37] army basically

[02:40:39] Numenor brings a bigger one

[02:40:42] and he surrenders as the whole

[02:40:43] fall of Numenor

[02:40:45] he convinces Varys on to seek immortality

[02:40:48] there's a lot to do and I'm really excited

[02:40:50] to see how they

[02:40:51] span that across the four seasons and which

[02:40:53] what each season is going to take. There's been

[02:40:55] a little bit of hinting about what's

[02:40:58] going to happen. They've definitely

[02:41:00] said that

[02:41:01] season two is going to be Sauron

[02:41:04] being his evil self so he's going to be

[02:41:06] gathering his armies and he's going to be

[02:41:07] doing the bad things

[02:41:09] they've already said that so that's going to be clear

[02:41:12] they've also teased

[02:41:14] that future seasons of the Rings of Power could jump

[02:41:16] forwards hundreds of years

[02:41:17] so Patrick McKay was

[02:41:20] speaking to Express.co.uk

[02:41:22] and he says

[02:41:23] maybe somewhere down the road we'll jump forward

[02:41:25] that's all part of it, the second ages of

[02:41:27] vast and epic time. We've made some choices in terms

[02:41:29] of what stories we want to tell and how to stitch

[02:41:31] them all together but it needs to have real

[02:41:33] breadth. So I wonder whether

[02:41:35] they might spend another season

[02:41:37] with some of the characters, the human

[02:41:39] characters and the half-oots that we know

[02:41:41] so we might still see

[02:41:43] obviously Nori on her little adventure

[02:41:46] the other half-oots maybe

[02:41:47] we still need to know what's going to happen

[02:41:49] with Bromwin and Theo, these humans that

[02:41:52] we've been introduced to they can't just

[02:41:53] be going off to

[02:41:55] Pallagia and that's it.

[02:41:57] So perhaps we'll see some conclusion

[02:41:59] or extension of what's going to happen with

[02:42:01] them and then they might do

[02:42:03] a bit of a jump but again

[02:42:05] I'm not really sure about that

[02:42:07] they've put a Lendil

[02:42:09] and a Seldur in the story at this time

[02:42:11] and yes the Numenoreans but they only

[02:42:13] live 200 years, they don't live hundreds

[02:42:15] and hundreds or thousands and we still need to get to the point

[02:42:19] but

[02:42:20] let's say they live

[02:42:22] 250 to 300 years

[02:42:24] at this point and a

[02:42:26] Seldur is kind of

[02:42:28] teenagerish in this

[02:42:29] he certainly acts like a bit of a petulant teenager

[02:42:32] but so

[02:42:33] we need to see him get to that sort of more

[02:42:35] kingly age but we're probably still only

[02:42:37] talking about another 100 years maybe

[02:42:39] we're not going to see a giant jump

[02:42:41] if we're going to end with that so

[02:42:43] have you had any thoughts about

[02:42:45] where they might be going with the next

[02:42:47] four seasons and any other structure?

[02:42:49] Could there be another Seldur?

[02:42:52] Have you guys thought about that?

[02:42:54] Like it takes on his name

[02:42:55] because he's got the right

[02:42:57] family and heritage and everything

[02:42:59] for it.

[02:43:01] No because Elendil and a Seldur

[02:43:03] are the and his brother

[02:43:05] and Arion are the only three

[02:43:08] Numenoreans that survived the fall

[02:43:09] of Numenore so they come to Middle-earth

[02:43:11] they set up the kingdoms of Gondor and Arnau

[02:43:13] and then they end up being there

[02:43:15] in the battle of the last alliance so

[02:43:17] it's definitely them but

[02:43:19] how they condense that and what else they throw

[02:43:21] in there I'm not sure.

[02:43:22] Could they extend the age of the Numenoreans?

[02:43:26] They've already talked about them

[02:43:27] living a few hundred years for sure

[02:43:29] but they can't really go beyond that

[02:43:30] so yeah we'll see what they do

[02:43:33] Penny have you had any thoughts or

[02:43:35] hopes or dreams for what happens in the

[02:43:37] next four seasons?

[02:43:39] I've been trying not to speculate

[02:43:41] too much because

[02:43:43] I think I'll just get obsessed

[02:43:44] and if I'm just

[02:43:46] waiting for what

[02:43:48] these showrunners are going to deliver

[02:43:50] I think I'll be a happier person

[02:43:55] but I have come to really

[02:43:57] love some of these characters and

[02:43:59] I'll be really sad if we

[02:44:01] don't get to spend

[02:44:02] more time with for example Poppy

[02:44:06] I really

[02:44:07] don't want

[02:44:08] that whole set of people

[02:44:10] to just go off and not be in the show

[02:44:12] anymore so I hope that there's a way

[02:44:15] that we circle back with them

[02:44:17] and that's it.

[02:44:19] I think we're just all in for a treat

[02:44:21] and we have to wait a really long time

[02:44:22] for that treat but it's going to continue on

[02:44:24] and I guess if each

[02:44:26] season takes two years to make then

[02:44:28] we're here for the next at least

[02:44:31] eight years so just to give us

[02:44:33] a little bit of a

[02:44:42] All right that's our show

[02:44:44] Thanks for listening everyone

[02:44:45] and thanks again Jason for joining us today

[02:44:48] Sure it was great

[02:44:50] I'm really glad that it worked out

[02:44:52] for both of you guys to do this podcast

[02:44:54] it was

[02:44:55] I was hoping it would and it did

[02:44:57] and that's awesome. It's been really really fun for me

[02:44:59] I love it. I loved getting to know you

[02:45:02] on when it's been really fun

[02:45:04] Yeah me too

[02:45:05] Same goes for you Penny it's been fantastic

[02:45:07] and I look forward to jumping

[02:45:09] in on the movies again

[02:45:11] in the future and

[02:45:12] for everybody else we will see you next time

[02:45:15] in Middle Earth. Please watch out for us

[02:45:17] in your feed. We are just going to

[02:45:19] pop up out of the undergrowth

[02:45:21] like half-foot and you'll see us there

[02:45:23] and in the meantime

[02:45:25] remember

[02:45:26] Alone it's just a journey

[02:45:28] Adventures must be shared

[02:45:31] And when in doubt

[02:45:32] Always follow your nose

[02:45:44] The nose always knows