Part 1: Season 2 Wrap-up Crossover with TV Podcast Industries

[00:00:00] Hmm? Ah!

[00:00:03] Hmm...

[00:00:04] Podcasts to go!

[00:00:06] Some things lost, are lost forever. No matter how hard we fight, how much our hearts yearn.

[00:01:09] Cause this world's so much bigger than any of us. And sometimes the winds blowing against us are just too strong.

[00:01:30] At those times, Mr. Burrows said, we've just got to accept it. What's broke is broke and won't fix.

[00:01:55] And all anybody can do is try and build something new.

[00:02:43] Greetings, half-worts, wizards, alban heroes and dark lords. Welcome to our podcast. I'm Anwen.

[00:02:48] I'm Penny.

[00:02:50] I'm Derek.

[00:02:51] And I'm John.

[00:02:53] And this is The Cast of the Rings, Episode 25.

[00:02:56] This episode, we're going to be discussing The Rings of Power Season 2 as a whole.

[00:03:03] And welcome to Derek and John. It's so great to have you here.

[00:03:07] Ah! Delighted to be here with you guys.

[00:03:09] Excellent.

[00:03:10] Yeah, thank you so much for having us. It's really great to be here.

[00:03:13] Yeah.

[00:03:14] Fantastic. And tell us all about your podcast. Where are you coming to us from?

[00:03:18] We're coming from Dublin in Ireland with our podcast, TV Podcast Industries.

[00:03:23] We've had a few iterations in our 10 years of doing podcasting.

[00:03:30] And we started off with Gotham, looking at the Batverse, then added The Defenders with the Marvelverse.

[00:03:39] And then we just moved into sort of, I guess, other properties.

[00:03:44] So like The Rings of Power with TV Podcast Industries.

[00:03:48] So yeah, we've been doing it for a while.

[00:03:50] And weirdly, the stars all aligned in this autumn with us doing Agatha all along, The Penguin and The Rings of Power.

[00:04:01] So sort of three massive sort of shows for our kind of podcasts.

[00:04:07] Yeah.

[00:04:07] So yeah, really good.

[00:04:09] Pretty huge. Yeah.

[00:04:09] That's our 10th anniversary.

[00:04:10] It's how it always works for us.

[00:04:12] It works out really well.

[00:04:13] So we started out with a bat show in 10 years ago and then we're doing Penguin right now, which is another iteration of a bat TV show.

[00:04:19] So that's great fun, isn't it? I love that.

[00:04:21] That's beautiful.

[00:04:22] It's really full circle.

[00:04:24] I love that.

[00:04:25] And at the end of the show, we will give some links to where we can find you.

[00:04:31] And yeah, let's get into it.

[00:04:33] I guess just to make everybody aware who's listening that we basically spoiler filled for all of season one and two of The Rings of Power.

[00:04:42] And our discussion might include things from The Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit as well.

[00:04:47] But we do try to avoid any spoilers of things that might happen in the show that's moving forward.

[00:04:52] So you can make sure that you're spoiler free by listening to this season two wrap up.

[00:04:57] So what were your general thoughts?

[00:04:59] Would you like to start, Derek?

[00:05:01] I absolutely loved the second season of Rings of Power.

[00:05:04] I was a big defender for the first season of Rings of Power.

[00:05:06] I really enjoyed having the TV show, but I think because we've covered so many TV shows over the year, over the years, one of the things I am always conscious of that is when you're setting up a big show like The Rings of Power in this world, you have to do set up.

[00:05:21] People may know The Lord of the Rings.

[00:05:23] They may know the books.

[00:05:24] But the first season of the show had to set up all of those characters.

[00:05:27] And the second season is where all the movement starts to happen.

[00:05:29] And I think they did such a great job.

[00:05:32] The balance of the storylines amongst the characters and they felt much, much bigger and much more epic in the second season than they did in the first.

[00:05:41] The first seemed to have one massive epic episode, which was Adar, I think, episode six of season one.

[00:05:48] Whereas this season seemed to have big moments almost every single episode and great character interaction.

[00:05:52] So I loved this.

[00:05:54] This was one of my favorite shows to watch this year.

[00:05:57] Excellent.

[00:05:57] That's the same for me.

[00:05:59] I mean, I think I just have one word, which is fab.

[00:06:04] I really just enjoyed the whole scope of this second season.

[00:06:10] It was epic.

[00:06:12] It was gorgeous.

[00:06:13] But also then the just really excellent kind of intimate character moments, certainly around Anatar and Kellan Brimboar.

[00:06:24] And I think that relationship really, really interesting.

[00:06:29] And I think, you know, it kind of the development of the relationships as well, such as with Elrond and Galadriel as well.

[00:06:37] So I thought this was superb.

[00:06:39] And I think a bit like as Derek says, just the epic sort of set pieces that they had in this season were really good.

[00:06:47] I mean, the only thing I would say is because of some of the focus.

[00:06:52] And I mean, that's natural.

[00:06:53] I guess I kind of wanted more of the Numenoreans to some extent.

[00:07:00] And certainly I think that Isildur maybe didn't get as much time as I would have liked.

[00:07:08] I would like to have seen a bit more in that kind of area of Middle Earth as well.

[00:07:13] So, but equally, it doesn't take away from the fact that I thought this was just a fabulous season and all the way through absolutely fixed to it for me.

[00:07:28] That's right.

[00:07:30] I agree completely that season one was beautiful and enjoyable and entertaining, but it bore the burden of world building.

[00:07:42] And you could feel it.

[00:07:44] There was some clumsiness and clunkiness to it.

[00:07:47] And season two, just like with a couple of little exceptions, just like saying everything was firing on all cylinders.

[00:07:57] And the characters were deeper and richer than they were in season one.

[00:08:02] The action scenes were amazing in season two.

[00:08:05] We had so much going on, almost too much going on sometimes.

[00:08:10] There were definitely times when I was like, there's too many stories.

[00:08:13] I just need one fewer stories.

[00:08:15] But I also think that the depth of the sort of Tolkien themes was better in season two.

[00:08:26] And we had Ents.

[00:08:29] So, you know, whenever I get Ents, I'm happy.

[00:08:33] So we had Ents and that sort of thing.

[00:08:35] Absolutely.

[00:08:36] Yeah.

[00:08:36] Really nice Ents as well with Blossom.

[00:08:39] I thought that was a really nice touch, actually.

[00:08:42] Yeah.

[00:08:43] Absolutely beautiful.

[00:08:45] Yeah, I agree with everything you've all just said.

[00:08:48] I agree, Penny, that the first season was kind of weighed down by that world building.

[00:08:55] And they had a lot of work to do to set all of that up.

[00:08:57] And I think that that work has now paid off where they're able to ramp up the pacing a little bit more.

[00:09:03] I do think, again, the pacing was as good as it could have been within the eight episodes.

[00:09:08] And they are contractually bound to have only eight episodes.

[00:09:11] That was the rule pretty much for getting the rights.

[00:09:14] It's that they were only allowed to have five, eight episode seasons.

[00:09:17] I think there's enough content in each season to have gone ten easily.

[00:09:20] And you can see that, I think, sometimes in some scenes, especially towards the end where you think, oh, that felt a bit rushed.

[00:09:26] Or was there anything that was a little bit missing there?

[00:09:27] Yeah.

[00:09:28] But in general, I think they had really just settled into that writing and the pacing of it.

[00:09:33] And the actors really settled into their characters and got to know what they were doing even more and getting straight into the story.

[00:09:40] Yeah.

[00:09:40] I was lucky enough to just have rewatched all of season one and season two over the last three weeks since the show ended with my kids.

[00:09:48] And it was really cool to see their reactions.

[00:09:51] So half the time I was kind of watching them instead of watching the screen, especially with moments like the Sauron reveal.

[00:09:58] When Halbrand reveals that he's Sauron, it was so much fun watching their faces.

[00:10:03] And my son at the moment is reading Lord of the Rings and he's up to the Council of Elrond.

[00:10:07] So when he got to see the Barrow of Wights and Tom Bombardo, it was just so exciting and so much more depth to it.

[00:10:12] It was really, really cool.

[00:10:13] Of course, yeah.

[00:10:13] Loved that.

[00:10:14] And I think that was really fun doing the rewatch.

[00:10:18] You know, obviously when we podcast, we watch each episode usually three times.

[00:10:22] But watching all of it again after seeing all of it was really cool and not having to wait a week in between.

[00:10:28] We pretty much did one a night for about a week and so much fun to see that.

[00:10:34] And just little parts that they put in that pay off later.

[00:10:37] So the visions that Galadriel Gilgalad had in each of their season two kind of flash forwards were all scenes that we did see later.

[00:10:45] So when you get to see them the second time, you recognize them.

[00:10:48] And then even just little things like Gilgalad mentions a mountain falling and a river running dry.

[00:10:54] And that all sounds very apocalyptic and scary when he sees it.

[00:10:58] But then when you've seen it the whole season, you go, oh, he's actually witnessed the fall of Eregion in that vision, which was very cool.

[00:11:06] And I guess the other thing sort of working through it again was dealing with my feelings around Sauron.

[00:11:12] Realizing about how I knew quite early on that he was Sauron pretty much from the raft.

[00:11:17] But I still did kind of bond and have that feeling of feeling sorry for Halbrand in season one, especially when he's talking to Galadriel after that village battle.

[00:11:24] But seeing it again and seeing that, I guess when you're not waiting a week in between and you're watching every night, that build up of tension and that build up of abuse between him and Calabrimboa was just more intense and more scary.

[00:11:41] It was just much like a faster pace that you had to kind of work your way through.

[00:11:45] And yeah, it was it was pretty intense.

[00:11:47] But overall, I agree.

[00:11:49] Totally loved it.

[00:11:50] Even better than season one.

[00:11:52] And yeah, that's it.

[00:11:53] We're fully hooked.

[00:11:55] Excellent.

[00:11:55] Excellent.

[00:11:56] Because it is a weird one.

[00:11:57] And certainly not to complain about podcasting about a show as great as this, but it is a slightly odd one the way that we all watch the show because you're you kind of stunt yourself watching it because you're watching three episodes, an episode three times and then waiting a week and then watching another episode three times.

[00:12:12] So you're you're while you're going really in depth in it.

[00:12:14] You are you are cutting the pace, the pacing yourself, I suppose, which is not how it's intended to be watched by the by the showrunners.

[00:12:20] So they intend you to sit down, watch the episode and then go on to the next episode.

[00:12:23] But we are kind of stunt ourselves because we're trying to get all the detail and bring the episode eight of everything we can get out of it.

[00:12:29] So, yeah.

[00:12:30] Yeah.

[00:12:30] Yeah.

[00:12:31] Thoroughly recommend the rewatch in that case for anybody, whether you've watched each episode three times or you've just watched it once a week.

[00:12:39] Go for it.

[00:12:39] Excellent.

[00:12:40] That's great.

[00:12:41] All right.

[00:12:41] So I thought today what we might do is go over some of our favorite characters or pairings of characters.

[00:12:47] Would you like to start us off, John?

[00:12:50] Yeah, sure.

[00:12:51] And mine are a little strange other than Elrond, I would say.

[00:12:55] And I'll come.

[00:12:56] I'll come to him last.

[00:12:59] I picked Glug, the kind of Uruk that was Adar's kind of sidekick, just mainly because I thought it was a really interesting point of view coming through, sort of just sporadically sort of littered through the season.

[00:13:14] And ultimately because he kind of betrays Adar and suddenly realizes probably very quickly that things were a lot better under Adar as he gets sort of run through by Sauron.

[00:13:34] And Sauron doesn't suffer fools gladly.

[00:13:39] And to him, Glug was a fool trying to sort of persuade him to retreat or to, you know, give up the ground because of the dwarves arriving.

[00:13:53] And but I kind of like that point of view that, you know, always wanting something different or new.

[00:14:02] And in the end, it's kind of the grass is greener on the other side.

[00:14:05] So I kind of like that perspective here with Glug.

[00:14:08] And so that's kind of one of the characters.

[00:14:13] And I guess the pairing with Adar just, you know, he was challenging him.

[00:14:18] It was just that slow sort of feeling of being disenfranchised from the cause of having an Uruk homeland.

[00:14:28] All those kind of senses feeding into his decision and sort of losing the faith with his, I guess, his leader in Adar.

[00:14:42] And ultimately finding out that his choice, his decision has not gone down very well.

[00:14:50] And indeed, he's dead by the end of it.

[00:14:52] So and again, it was it was in a sense him delivering similar information to Adar as he did with Sauron.

[00:15:01] And of course, the outcome being very different.

[00:15:04] So I kind of like this.

[00:15:06] Yeah, I think it also just speaks more widely to, I guess, the Uruks and the Orcs and their relationship with Sauron,

[00:15:16] I guess ultimately being sort of pulled under his control.

[00:15:22] And just because as well, we do see it is Glug with his wife and child.

[00:15:28] So again, one of those images that we have from this season that in some ways may be split viewers in terms of what they thought.

[00:15:38] But equally, Uruks have got to come from somewhere.

[00:15:41] And they're not Uruk-hai, so they're not being born from the earth.

[00:15:46] And so some, you know, there's got to be mummy Uruk and daddy Uruk to provide baby Uruk.

[00:15:52] So I guess, you know, I kind of like that.

[00:15:56] I like this idea of them trying to have their homeland.

[00:16:00] And I thought that was painted quite nicely through Glug, which, as you were saying, Anwen, given the scope, the depth of the material that they're using,

[00:16:13] having those little elements beyond just the big epic pieces, I think, as well, is quite, you know,

[00:16:21] it's a good thing for the writers to be able to do, to just layer in different perspectives and scales to this series.

[00:16:31] So that's kind of my first one.

[00:16:34] And it's such an interesting choice, isn't it?

[00:16:36] Because, you know, throughout all the different versions of Lord of the Rings, the cartoon version, the different adaptations that we've had,

[00:16:42] we haven't really spent any time with Uruks or Uruks.

[00:16:44] We've just seen them as wave after wave of bad guys being thrown in to be killed.

[00:16:49] So the choice of the showrunner to put these front and center and have some characters having other interactions

[00:16:54] and maybe questioning the plan of their great leader as he starts to turn them back into wave after wave of Uruks being shattered on the walls of Eregion, you know.

[00:17:03] I thought it was a really great choice for the show.

[00:17:05] Yeah.

[00:17:05] And I mean, also, I think, you know, say from like Return of the King, you know, it's that disfigured orc that's leading the force, the orc forces there.

[00:17:15] And, you know, yes, very recognizable.

[00:17:18] But again, it's in a military setting.

[00:17:20] And so as is Glug, but as I say, there's other elements sort of coming into his conversation.

[00:17:28] And yeah, so I really kind of I had a soft spot for Glug and then realized, oh, no.

[00:17:35] Oh, well.

[00:17:36] So he's made the response decision.

[00:17:38] Yeah, I definitely agree about Glug.

[00:17:41] And I think it's just it's personalizing it, almost humanizing.

[00:17:46] I know he's an orc, but humanizing him to the point where we've never, ever seen them have to make some kind of moral decision.

[00:17:53] I think that's what made him have some depth as a character.

[00:17:56] So he had to try and choose between the best outcome for all of the people, which Adar was obviously going for, compared with the best outcome for him.

[00:18:05] So he wanted to go and be with his wife and his child.

[00:18:07] And that's part of the reason why he wanted to retreat.

[00:18:09] Adar said no.

[00:18:11] But it's more of a conflict within, which we've never seen before.

[00:18:14] As you say, it's just always been there's this wave of evil, yucky creatures.

[00:18:19] And it was really cool to see them bring a little bit more depth to that race that we haven't seen before.

[00:18:24] Yeah.

[00:18:25] Yeah.

[00:18:25] I like it because it's so true to Tolkien and the way he felt about evil, that there is no pure evil and that there's no irredeemable beings.

[00:18:38] And the orcs that we see in the Lord of the Rings and especially in the Lord of the Rings movies are cannibals.

[00:18:48] They're bloodthirsty.

[00:18:50] The Uruk-hai are these, you know, uber orcs.

[00:18:54] But even the regular orcs that we meet are, you know, vile and disgusting.

[00:18:59] And they don't have any depth to them at all.

[00:19:02] And in addition to Gloog, we also got like little tiny glimpses of orc culture, I guess, for lack of a better word.

[00:19:10] I was really taken with in the Siege of Eregion.

[00:19:14] There was that orc drummer who was so enthusiastic about drumming.

[00:19:19] And the orcs that worked that it wasn't a battering ram, but whatever that device was.

[00:19:25] I loved that they were called in the credits orc engineers.

[00:19:29] It was just this window into this idea that orcs are not just monsters.

[00:19:36] And it makes the way that they are in Lord of the Rings more tragic than scary because I realized that thousands of years of Sauron's rule has turned them into these monsters.

[00:19:50] That they had an opportunity under Adar to go in a different direction and actually become like a viable part of Middle-earth.

[00:19:59] Yeah.

[00:19:59] Yeah.

[00:20:00] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:20:01] Yeah, definitely.

[00:20:02] And I think that is the tragedy of it and sort of expressed through Gloog.

[00:20:09] So and yeah, so that's Gloog.

[00:20:12] One that I always going to pick because it's such the coolest concept for a monster.

[00:20:18] And that's the Balrog, ultimately.

[00:20:21] Absolutely.

[00:20:21] You know, we got the Balrog here in the halls of Kazak Doom with, I mean, just epic shots.

[00:20:33] Again, I think some of the shots in this season were just, I think we were describing them.

[00:20:41] You could paint them, you know, just freeze frame and you could hang it on the wall.

[00:20:46] And it was really, really good.

[00:20:48] And that one with King Durin sort of launching at the Balrog with his axe.

[00:20:55] Mm-hmm.

[00:20:55] And I just thought was superb.

[00:20:58] I want that on my wall.

[00:20:59] Yep.

[00:20:59] I mean, it is just the, I think it's one of the greatest concepts of a monster.

[00:21:06] This sort of, I think I was just saying earlier, you know, a walking furnace that lives in the depths, you know, a relic of Morgoth's era that's sort of been brought back into being with the gradual sort of hatred being brought back into the world through Annatar.

[00:21:31] And I just really, really enjoyed it.

[00:21:35] And I think because it was also, you know, with Deezer, Prince Durin, King Durin, seeing that taking place in their homes, seeing what they've gone through this season, it was just really good.

[00:21:49] And I just thought it was epic.

[00:21:51] That opening of, was it episode six or seven?

[00:21:55] It was just like a little mini movie in like the first five minutes.

[00:22:00] And I thought literally, yeah, we got to the end of it.

[00:22:02] And both of us were kind of sweating at the end of the scene because it was so stressful.

[00:22:05] And we went, wow, the credits are just coming now.

[00:22:08] That's literally just the start.

[00:22:10] Yeah, we had the same reaction.

[00:22:13] Usually after watching the first lot of credits, I would fast forward when I watched each episode.

[00:22:18] But I think it was actually episode.

[00:22:21] It was the very start of the final episode, episode eight.

[00:22:23] And I needed the credits to just debrief myself, just chill out from that.

[00:22:29] It was one of the most intense cold opens I've ever seen.

[00:22:33] And we were worried at the beginning of how are they going to tie up all these storylines within one episode?

[00:22:38] And when they managed to do that storyline, and I think it was only six or seven minutes, it was quite short.

[00:22:44] But I had faith, okay, they're going to wrap it up.

[00:22:46] They're going to make it.

[00:22:47] But it was so intense and so dense that by the time of the end of it, I was like, okay, I need these credits.

[00:22:51] I just need to chill out.

[00:22:52] It's going to be okay.

[00:22:54] And there was a lot of worry, I think, as well, amongst the fandom that the Balrog was being awoken way too early.

[00:23:00] So in the books, it doesn't actually wake up until, you know, they're always around.

[00:23:04] They've been around since the fall of Morgoth.

[00:23:05] But he doesn't wake up in Moria or Kaza Doom until the third age.

[00:23:10] So there's a lot of worry about that.

[00:23:12] But I think they did tidy that up quite nicely in that he's sealed back up again.

[00:23:17] So they can have him come back when they need to, or they can have him not.

[00:23:20] And I think it still works.

[00:23:21] There's nothing to say that he didn't rise earlier.

[00:23:24] It's just that the books and the story that we know, he comes in the third age later on.

[00:23:28] So I think they did that pretty well.

[00:23:31] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:23:33] Yeah.

[00:23:34] And finally, it's Elrond.

[00:23:37] I just, I think this season, I just liked this version of Elrond sort of being slightly rebellious to his king and slightly sort of cold to Galadriel.

[00:23:54] I thought it was just good to see Elrond sort of asserting himself.

[00:24:04] You know, I liked him being on the run.

[00:24:06] I liked just how icy he was towards Galadriel, really.

[00:24:11] And ultimately, you know, the trust being broken.

[00:24:17] I mean, let's say, I mean, I'm not necessarily, I wouldn't say I know Tolkien hugely well.

[00:24:25] But for me, this was in some ways a bit of a revelation that this sort of degradation of their relationship a little bit.

[00:24:34] And certainly even just from season one, it was, you know, Galadriel having to, in a sense, fess up.

[00:24:42] And also being blamed by her king for, you know, and Elrond for sort of not recognizing the evil, you know, by her side.

[00:24:56] And also how it then plays into sort of the manipulation that Annatar has, you know, as to whether, is Elrond's kind of view of Galadriel, is it fully justifies?

[00:25:12] Is it a little harsh, you know, given, you know, she's been coaxed by the master of deceit in Annatar and Sauron.

[00:25:25] So I really enjoyed how this played out between Elrond and Galadriel, in particular on their kind of, their journey to try and get to Kellenbrimbor as well along the road.

[00:25:42] Just the distrust coming through and all of that, I found just added really nice layers of complexity to this relationship that we, for me, I've known and sort of really enjoyed from the Lord of the Rings movies, as well as the books.

[00:26:05] So that was, that was really great sort of thread through this series for me.

[00:26:14] And indeed, I know there was possibly the, you know, there was the kiss as well, which got a lot of people talking.

[00:26:23] But I think for me, that was, you know, him trying to get her to escape.

[00:26:29] So again, it was just, you know, realizing how far it had gone and the need to pull together, how then they were able to kind of reconcile with one another, I think here.

[00:26:41] So I, that's my kind of final sort of character here.

[00:26:47] Yeah.

[00:26:48] I think the thing you have to remember about Elrond too, because I did see a bit of commentary about how he was really harsh with Galadriel.

[00:26:56] So there's kind of two parts to it.

[00:26:57] There's the fact that he's upset that she was kind of taken in by Sauron.

[00:27:01] But the second part about the Rings, we have to remember that Elrond has a pretty, pretty traumatic history with the jewelry of Middle-earth.

[00:27:12] So if you go back all the way to the Silmarils, the Silmarils were what was responsible for him losing his parents, his kin being all slain, he and his brother being kidnapped.

[00:27:24] And all the stuff that happened later on was because of this greed for these three magical jewels.

[00:27:29] Now, obviously they're different jewels that are in the Elven Rings, but I think if you know his history, you can kind of understand a little bit more about his hesitation about using this.

[00:27:37] And, you know, the Silmarils were supposed to be for good, but they caused a lot of grief.

[00:27:42] So I think that's part of what drives Elrond in a lot of those moments, especially with his mistrust of the Rings.

[00:27:49] And then also kind of according to that with Galadriel as well.

[00:27:53] Yeah.

[00:27:54] Yeah.

[00:27:54] A lot going on for him.

[00:27:55] It's really interesting.

[00:27:56] I think I mentioned on our podcast about Elrond's kind of journey in this season of the show.

[00:28:02] Just a great meme that was out during the season just had Elrond looking at the ring, going destroy the rings.

[00:28:08] And then it cut Elrond in the preview of Lord of the Rings saying destroy the rings.

[00:28:15] And then when he goes at the Council of Elrond saying destroy the rings.

[00:28:19] So this man never changes.

[00:28:20] He wants all of these rings to be destroyed at first sight.

[00:28:23] He's consistent for sure.

[00:28:24] He's very consistent.

[00:28:25] Yeah.

[00:28:27] Yeah.

[00:28:27] No, absolutely.

[00:28:28] And I mean, that's what I liked here.

[00:28:32] I think seeing Elrond and his reaction to everything sort of unfolding.

[00:28:39] And initially, you know, not having been a part of it.

[00:28:42] I mean, even just from throwing himself off the cliff and sort of going on the run.

[00:28:48] Challenging not just Gladwell, but as king.

[00:28:51] And then just the necessity of having to, you know, work together, but still have this distrust.

[00:29:02] Maybe, yeah, as you say, not so much for Gladwell, but because of the rings and because of the person, you know, behind them.

[00:29:12] I mean, you know, the big thing he is kind of wary of is that, well, we don't know whether, you know, or he's like, he doesn't know whether Annatar or Halbrand, as he knows him, had any input into those rings.

[00:29:31] And so, you know, that's his kind of big concern that there may have been.

[00:29:37] And so they may be tainted even more so.

[00:29:42] This led to one of my favorite conversations between two characters, and that's Cerdon and Elrond.

[00:29:48] When Elrond, you know, he went to Cerdon for help destroying the rings.

[00:29:53] And Cerdon, you know, eventually succumbed to the beauty of the rings.

[00:29:57] And they have this conversation about separating the art from the artist, which I think is such a fascinating and layered concept and extremely relevant to modern society.

[00:30:13] I think when we talked about it on the podcast, I brought up people like R. Kelly and Michael Jackson.

[00:30:21] And Bill Cosby, like, how do you know when you can separate the art from the artist and when you can't?

[00:30:28] And Elrond's fear in this case isn't just about, like, he's a bad man, so we shouldn't, you know, enjoy his art.

[00:30:36] It's that he might have put evil in the art.

[00:30:39] And so it's another level of the argument.

[00:30:42] But I think it's a conversation that, as a society, we should keep having.

[00:30:48] And so I'm glad that the show put it out there in such an express way.

[00:30:53] Absolutely.

[00:30:54] Absolutely.

[00:30:54] And who better to do it than Ben Daniels?

[00:30:56] I just thought he was great as Cerdon.

[00:30:58] He's had such a big year this year being on Interview of the Vampire as well, which finished about two weeks before we saw him on Lord of the Rings.

[00:31:06] I loved him in this role.

[00:31:08] I would have loved to have seen more of him.

[00:31:10] There's a moment when we were wondering at the end when they all join up to save Galadriel and they use the rings to help heal her.

[00:31:16] And you're going, where's Cerdon?

[00:31:17] He has one of the rings, doesn't he?

[00:31:18] Can he not just hop over?

[00:31:18] I really wanted to see him.

[00:31:20] For me, he is Bel Rio from the second season of Foundation.

[00:31:25] And I loved him so much in that role that when I realized he was Cerdon, I, like, lost my grip.

[00:31:31] I was so excited.

[00:31:32] I was like, oh, my God, I love him.

[00:31:33] And then he was only in, like, two episodes.

[00:31:35] I know.

[00:31:36] It wasn't enough.

[00:31:37] I really wanted to see more of him as well.

[00:31:39] We came straight off the back of watching Interview of the Vampire, and I loved the comparison there.

[00:31:43] These two immortal figures, but they could not be more different, you know, morally, personality-wise.

[00:31:49] Everything was so delicious to see.

[00:31:51] Really, really enjoyed him.

[00:31:52] I wish there was more.

[00:31:53] But hopefully we're going to see a bit more of him later.

[00:31:55] I mean, it's kind of true to the books.

[00:31:57] Like, Cerdon pops up in the books many, many, many times, but usually just referenced in one sentence.

[00:32:03] You'll hear, and they went to see Cerdon, the great shipwright.

[00:32:07] Or they went to the Great Havens where Cerdon ruled.

[00:32:09] And there's not actually a lot of, almost no dialogue and hardly any action with him in it.

[00:32:14] It's just he gets mentioned.

[00:32:15] So maybe that's going to be his role in this series as well.

[00:32:18] But he just pops up and does a couple of things and then pops up.

[00:32:21] That might be.

[00:32:22] Don't just do two days of filming with Ben Daniels and then spread it out across the next three seasons.

[00:32:26] Yeah.

[00:32:27] That might work for sure.

[00:32:29] Oh, that was awesome.

[00:32:30] Thanks so much, John.

[00:32:31] Those are great characters.

[00:32:32] I really loved delving into those guys, especially the Balrog.

[00:32:36] That's really cool.

[00:32:37] Absolutely.

[00:32:37] That guy.

[00:32:38] That's the delving.

[00:32:38] That guy, the Balrog.

[00:32:41] I wonder if he's got a wife and kids.

[00:32:44] I know.

[00:32:44] Is there Lady Balrog?

[00:32:46] Or maybe that is the Lady Balrog.

[00:32:48] That could be a woman.

[00:32:49] We don't know.

[00:32:49] Absolutely.

[00:32:50] What does he do all day just down there in the mine?

[00:32:53] Anyway, that's all good.

[00:32:54] Awesome.

[00:32:54] Thank you so much.

[00:32:55] Penny, would you like to take us into some of your favorites?

[00:32:59] Sure.

[00:32:59] And in a surprise to no one, I chose Disa and Duran as one of my favorite pairings of the season and of the show so far because I loved them in season one as well.

[00:33:12] And I love so many things about Disa and Duran together.

[00:33:18] The love they have for each other is palpable.

[00:33:24] And I hope to someday have a relationship like theirs where they respect each other.

[00:33:30] They are honest and direct with each other.

[00:33:33] They're caring with each other.

[00:33:35] But neither of them takes any garbage from the other one.

[00:33:38] Right?

[00:33:38] They say their mind.

[00:33:39] They're very direct.

[00:33:41] And I love the way she pushes him to be more honest and direct with his father.

[00:33:49] She has that great scene with King Duran where she sort of is like, you and your son need to talk to each other.

[00:33:55] Like, get your head out your butt and talk to your son.

[00:33:59] And I think that it's a rare person who can do that with a king and have the king actually listen.

[00:34:12] She's got a power in her own right, not just because she's married to the prince of Khazad-dum.

[00:34:19] But, you know, she's the stone singer.

[00:34:21] She's well respected by the other dwarves.

[00:34:24] And she's also funny.

[00:34:27] Like, I enjoy that.

[00:34:29] She's glamorous.

[00:34:30] I love the way they style her with like, there's so much like gold dust and her glowing eyes.

[00:34:36] And she's got these like gems on her forehead and, you know, her robes that are always like silk and these elaborate, you know, embroideries and stuff.

[00:34:47] She's everything that I think a princess should be.

[00:34:50] Right?

[00:34:50] She's fierce.

[00:34:53] But also, she never surrenders one ounce of her femininity.

[00:34:57] It's like this beautiful combination of strength and softness.

[00:35:00] And I love the effect she has on Duran.

[00:35:07] And I love how much he loves her.

[00:35:09] Like, whenever she does something really fierce and amazing, he's always like, oh, I love you.

[00:35:14] Like, it's so charming to me that he, that his attraction to her is about her strength.

[00:35:22] And at the same time, though, he's not like, let me lean on her and she can take care of me like she's my mommy.

[00:35:29] Right?

[00:35:29] He's like, I have to step up to be worthy of this woman who is so formidable.

[00:35:38] And I just found their relationship to be aspirational.

[00:35:44] Absolutely.

[00:35:44] Absolutely.

[00:35:45] And I do think they t-shirted on the line and I think a lesser show would have gone for it where Disa is trying to get Duran to step back and talk to his father and telling him, if you wear a ring, then our relationship is over.

[00:36:01] And I think a lesser show would have had a breakup between the two of them and put the two of them on separate sides.

[00:36:05] But they did such a great job of keeping the two of them together, showing how powerful the two of them are as a couple and being united throughout the season.

[00:36:12] There was never a point where you thought they'll walk away from each other.

[00:36:15] They just did a great job of writing that arc for them, I thought.

[00:36:18] Yeah, they're just such great characters there.

[00:36:20] Yeah.

[00:36:21] No, absolutely.

[00:36:21] I mean, Disa, I absolutely adore from season one.

[00:36:25] And, you know, no surprise because she is, you know, the stone singer.

[00:36:34] And that song from the first season, just absolutely incredible.

[00:36:40] And I'm so pleased they did it again in the second season.

[00:36:46] And I think what makes Disa's journey really interesting is the fact that that skill, that knowledge is taken away from her by King Duran using the ring.

[00:37:02] You know, I think he has a really great line where he says, you know, I can see the mountain.

[00:37:09] They hear the mountain, but I can see it.

[00:37:11] You know, he's dig there, dig there, giving him the sight of the mountain rather than the resonance of it.

[00:37:21] And it's just like that kind of that contrasting sort of perspective of how you view the mountain.

[00:37:29] One in terms of with Disa, I guess, arguably more in harmony.

[00:37:36] And whereas with King Duran, it's one of effectively exploitation of exploiting the wealth of the mountain to its own catastrophe.

[00:37:49] I mean, I guess in a sense that you modern day climate change, but in a mountain with dwarves.

[00:37:56] And so really, really interesting.

[00:37:58] I absolutely love these two.

[00:38:01] Like you say, Penny and Disa and Prince Duran.

[00:38:04] Yeah, and I think it's also a bit of a commentary too on you could look at it as climate, but also technology.

[00:38:12] And we know that Tolkien had strong feelings about the advancement of technology and what that meant to the natural world.

[00:38:22] And you can kind of see a similarity there between Disa having this knowledge and this kind of organic knowledge and this understanding of how to manage something more naturally.

[00:38:33] And then you kind of get this sudden magic or technology coming in.

[00:38:37] You know, I guess Tolkien would never have imagined a world with the internet and with AI, but you could see it in that as well.

[00:38:44] He suddenly can see everything.

[00:38:46] He's like AI.

[00:38:47] He can see everything.

[00:38:49] He can make these decisions based on all of this information that he suddenly got with no effort whatsoever.

[00:38:55] Whereas Disa has this natural ability plus years and years of training and experience to understand it more organically.

[00:39:01] So it's a really interesting commentary, I thought, when they sort of showed all of that.

[00:39:05] And I think everyone can take a different kind of aspect out of that as well.

[00:39:09] Yeah.

[00:39:09] There's a really nice moment where I think the crystal ball that she's buying for her daughter, it rolls down.

[00:39:20] Whilst a little contrived, I love the ending of that where she kind of sings into the void with the water.

[00:39:29] And it's just answered by the growl of the Balrog that kind of ripples the water up towards.

[00:39:36] I just thought that was so, again, another one of those things where it was very, just how that was shot.

[00:39:42] I thought it was really, really good.

[00:39:44] I love that scene.

[00:39:46] Yeah.

[00:39:50] As long as I'm talking about dwarves, I also wanted to talk a little bit about King Durin and Prince Durin and their relationship.

[00:39:58] And we saw it go through so much change and strife this season as, you know, they argued about whether or not to work with the elves.

[00:40:12] And then they argued about whether or not to give the elves the mithril.

[00:40:16] And then they argued about, you know, the rings.

[00:40:20] And then, you know, it all comes to a head after King Durin puts on the ring and gets more and more corrupted by it.

[00:40:27] And we talked about this also earlier in the season that it's a great metaphor for what a lot of people go through when their parents develop, you know, dementia or Alzheimer's or something like that.

[00:40:41] Or what happens when a loved one succumbs to an addiction and you start to see them, you lose them.

[00:40:50] You see a different side of them.

[00:40:52] You lose the parts of them that you loved.

[00:40:54] They become almost unrecognizable to you as the corrupting influence or the disease or the addiction, you know, takes them away.

[00:41:03] And the sadness that Durin was feeling, Prince Durin was feeling about it was so moving and beautiful to watch.

[00:41:13] Again, this is a very, like, masculine character, right?

[00:41:18] He's got all the trappings of sort of traditional masculinity, yet he was able to show real vulnerability and sadness and caring and love for his father mixed in with all of the sort of machismo of the dwarves, which I thought was really beautifully handled by that actor whose name I have now forgotten.

[00:41:42] And the ending that the two characters had where King Durin, you know, says, like, I was never letting you raise your hand.

[00:41:49] It was you getting stronger and calls him King Durin and takes the ring off.

[00:41:55] It was a nice way to cap that relationship.

[00:41:59] It happened a little quickly for my taste, but that's OK because we got the Balrog jump and that was awesome.

[00:42:05] But I'm looking forward to seeing more of how the aftermath of losing his father and the ensuing political situation affects Prince Durin and the other dwarves next season.

[00:42:23] I think they set up a really interesting story there.

[00:42:26] Yeah, definitely.

[00:42:27] Yeah.

[00:42:30] Yeah, they've set it up that there's a brother that has a claim to the throne as well, which is something that we hadn't seen at all in the previous couple of seasons.

[00:42:37] You kind of think, OK, he's had to go through this whole thing where he's just lost his father.

[00:42:41] He's seen his father die in a warrior's death.

[00:42:43] Fabulous, fabulous scene.

[00:42:45] But now he could have a challenge from his brother coming in.

[00:42:48] It's not as simple as him taking over and becoming the leader of the dwarves there.

[00:42:52] So that's very interesting for the next season, isn't it?

[00:42:55] Yeah, that's going to be fun to watch.

[00:42:56] And guaranteeing that we'll see them again, which is great.

[00:42:59] Of course, we always need more dwarves, for sure.

[00:43:02] I really liked that too, Penny, that relationship between the two Durins.

[00:43:06] And it's quite a hard balance to strike between the tension between a father and son like that, but also showing the tenderness.

[00:43:14] And it wasn't that they necessarily flipped back and forth between those two, but just that both of those were always there.

[00:43:21] So throughout their lives.

[00:43:22] And I think that's probably common in a lot of parent-child relationships.

[00:43:25] And I think especially when there's a power structure involved, you know, when you are the king and then you've got the heir to the throne, there's always going to be that tension there as well.

[00:43:34] But obviously that tenderness that we got to see too, which was really beautiful.

[00:43:37] I really loved the way they portrayed that.

[00:43:39] And I think the Durin, the elder, the way that the actor portrayed him in so many moments, he was completely still.

[00:43:50] So especially when he's listening.

[00:43:52] So if he's listening to Durin or he's listening to Deesa, or even when he's listening to Navi, he's not sort of just looking around and thinking of the next thing or whatever that he's going to say or whatever he's going to decree.

[00:44:02] He really listens and he focuses on them and he's very still.

[00:44:06] I loved that as an acting choice.

[00:44:07] I thought it was awesome.

[00:44:10] Farazhan is very similar.

[00:44:12] He's always listening and watching and it is a really powerful tool of anybody who's in a power structure is listening to the people around you.

[00:44:26] And understanding exactly what's going on before you say anything.

[00:44:30] It's just smart.

[00:44:32] It is.

[00:44:33] It is.

[00:44:33] It shows his power really as well, doesn't it?

[00:44:36] Because he is a leader for a reason.

[00:44:39] Fantastically played.

[00:44:39] And again, I forgot the name of the actor, of course.

[00:44:42] And my mouse isn't working, so I can't pop over and find out his name.

[00:44:45] But we know him from Trainspotting.

[00:44:47] That was his most famous role before this.

[00:44:49] And he just looks unrecognizable in this role, like most of the cast when they've got their full makeup on.

[00:44:55] But he is a great actor.

[00:44:57] He's been in quite a lot of things.

[00:44:59] But yeah, Trainspotting is certainly one big movie.

[00:45:05] Unforgettable, I think.

[00:45:07] Yeah.

[00:45:08] And I think the actor's Peter Mellon.

[00:45:11] But who did he play in Trainspotting?

[00:45:13] He was the drug dealer who gives the full gang all their drugs, basically.

[00:45:17] Oh my God, he was!

[00:45:19] Oh, you've just blown my mind.

[00:45:21] There you go.

[00:45:22] There you go.

[00:45:22] Would you like to start with a super?

[00:45:23] You want to go straight to the hard drugs, yes.

[00:45:26] That's incredible.

[00:45:27] Yeah.

[00:45:28] Yeah, he's brilliant.

[00:45:29] And getting to keep his own accent as well, which is pretty cool in both movies as well.

[00:45:34] Exactly.

[00:45:34] Which is great.

[00:45:35] Exactly.

[00:45:35] Yeah.

[00:45:36] Oh, that's awesome.

[00:45:37] I love that.

[00:45:38] I just want to talk a little bit about Adar and his relationship with Galadriel and how their conversations were so illuminating of each of their motivations and characters.

[00:45:55] And it really took me from feeling just sympathy for Adar and his cause of wanting a homeland for his people to literally wanting him to win.

[00:46:13] I liked his vision that he had for elves and orcs working together to defeat Sauron and to work toward a future where they could both exist.

[00:46:25] I was really inspired by that.

[00:46:26] And his death was hard on me.

[00:46:31] And I think that Galadriel developed serious respect for him by the end of their relationship and that seeing him killed the way he was by his own children was heartbreaking for her as well.

[00:46:48] Now, it got short-circuited because, of course, Sauron showed up in that moment, so she had to focus elsewhere.

[00:46:53] But up until that moment, I think she was coming to terms with the idea of allying with Adar and actually starting to think it wasn't just their only resort, but actually a good idea.

[00:47:09] It's another tragic loss.

[00:47:11] It's like that Adar could have done amazing things with the orcs.

[00:47:15] Like he wanted to live in peace.

[00:47:17] He didn't want to rampage all across Middle-earth.

[00:47:19] Like, that's amazing.

[00:47:20] He was a visionary and a lot of visionaries die young.

[00:47:24] And I guess for an elf or uruk, that's young.

[00:47:28] So, what is he, like 5,000 years old or something that's young?

[00:47:31] Exactly.

[00:47:34] Exactly.

[00:47:35] And his mind does change over the course of the season as well.

[00:47:38] Early on, he's not willing to work with Galadriel.

[00:47:42] He's speaking about taking her ring and using it.

[00:47:45] But by the end of the season, once he's had the ring and has seen himself back to his elvish form, he is going to work together with anybody that can take down Sauron, I suppose.

[00:47:55] But I do think he had a very good point.

[00:47:58] They were never going to let them go back to Mordor.

[00:48:01] Once they had, even if they joined up, even if they had beaten Sauron, the orcs would have been slaughtered by the elves or by whoever survives.

[00:48:09] There was no chance they were getting away with it.

[00:48:11] So, I thought that was quite interesting.

[00:48:12] That was the perspective he came from.

[00:48:13] They all look at us as monsters and they're going to still treat us like monsters, even if we help here, even if we join up.

[00:48:19] We won't be treated the same as the men or the dwarves teaming up with the elves.

[00:48:23] We will still be treated as the evil from Mordor.

[00:48:27] I think it was possible.

[00:48:29] I think that there is an alternate universe where the orcs could have retreated to Mordor.

[00:48:36] And if they proved themselves to not want to have war, that the elves would have left them alone.

[00:48:43] I think it could have happened.

[00:48:46] But I am notoriously idealistic.

[00:48:50] So, maybe I'm wrong.

[00:48:52] We'd hope so.

[00:48:53] We'd hope so.

[00:48:55] I wanted to just bring up Gil-Galad because one of my favorite things about any show that I podcast about is sort of following along with the fandom online.

[00:49:04] And when I first saw somebody online call him Gil-Gadaddy, it just killed me.

[00:49:12] I thought it was so funny.

[00:49:14] And then, you know, I started seeing a lot of memes and things about, you know, how, I mean, this is a very good looking cast.

[00:49:23] And so, there were a lot of people who were like really in the tank for Annatar.

[00:49:29] And there were a lot of people who were shipping Gladriel and Halbrand.

[00:49:34] Even after he turns into Annatar, they were calling it Haladriel.

[00:49:39] And all that kind of internet fandom, I just find so entertaining.

[00:49:45] And it's just, it comes from a place of mostly joy, right?

[00:49:50] It's like, I love this show.

[00:49:52] I want to make something about it.

[00:49:54] So, there's like memes and there's fan art and there's jokes and there's fan fiction and all that stuff.

[00:50:00] It just makes the world a little bit richer that there's people out there who are so inspired by this material.

[00:50:06] I love it.

[00:50:07] And, you know, Gil-Gadaddy, he is very, he's a zaddy.

[00:50:13] He's beautiful.

[00:50:14] I saw one last night on one of the Rings of Power websites or Facebook pages.

[00:50:20] And it said something about what's up with me that I'm really into all of these older men.

[00:50:26] And it showed like Keller Brimboar and it showed Elendil.

[00:50:30] And then it showed Gil-Gadad.

[00:50:33] And I'm like, oh, I guess I'm not in that demographic.

[00:50:36] It's just like eight years younger than me or something.

[00:50:39] And it's like, yeah.

[00:50:40] Or unless they're talking about the characters being, you know, in their 200s and 500s.

[00:50:44] That's true.

[00:50:44] That's true.

[00:50:45] He's an older man for sure.

[00:50:46] He's thousands of years older than me.

[00:50:48] So, there you go.

[00:50:49] But yeah, he's a fantastic looking man.

[00:50:51] We remember him from Jessica Jones season two.

[00:50:53] I think he was Jessica's boyfriend.

[00:50:56] Benjamin Walker.

[00:50:56] Yeah.

[00:50:57] Yeah.

[00:50:58] Yeah.

[00:50:58] So, I remember him well from that because we covered another show.

[00:51:01] And he was in Abraham Lincoln Vampire Hunter as well.

[00:51:04] Which I think I want to go back and see now because I do really enjoy him as an actor.

[00:51:08] And he's also one of the most interesting ones to see in interviews as well because he's so, so different.

[00:51:12] He's got this quite full on American accent.

[00:51:14] And he's just really kind of cheeky and sardonic.

[00:51:17] And I think it's really cool to see, you know, just little elements of that come through in his acting of Gil-Galad.

[00:51:24] But yeah, just gorgeous.

[00:51:26] Love it.

[00:51:27] His battle scenes were also really beautiful.

[00:51:30] The way he worked with that long halberd spear, whatever that thing is called.

[00:51:38] You know, it was very circular.

[00:51:40] He was always, there was a lot of spinning and swinging.

[00:51:43] And he is quite a bit larger than all the other men in the cast.

[00:51:48] Like when you see them in like interviews or photos of them on red carpets or whatever,

[00:51:52] he's like shoulders and head above most of the other members of the cast.

[00:51:57] He's a big guy.

[00:51:58] But he moved still like an elf.

[00:52:01] He had the elegance and grace that like, for example, our own deer really exemplifies.

[00:52:08] And I really enjoyed that we got more of him this season than we did in season one.

[00:52:13] In season one, he was kind of boring.

[00:52:14] But this season we got to know him.

[00:52:17] And I said a couple of times it was so exciting to see him out of the office because, you know,

[00:52:22] he's tall and he's imposing and he's wearing his golden robes

[00:52:25] and his special little like leaf, golden leaf circle on his head and everything.

[00:52:29] But then you can imagine if you were to actually see him on a battlefield,

[00:52:32] he's so tall and all this golden armor.

[00:52:35] And then he's got Agloss's spear and just the moves that he did.

[00:52:39] Yeah.

[00:52:39] Every time he moved and did anything on that battlefield, I was cheering.

[00:52:42] I thought he was awesome.

[00:52:43] It's really cool.

[00:52:44] Yeah.

[00:52:45] Yeah.

[00:52:45] He's great.

[00:52:45] I think early on in the season, I did not complain, but I was comparing how great

[00:52:52] Morsford Clark's Elvish was and saying how much better it is hearing her speak than hearing

[00:52:58] Benjamin Walker's Elvish through Gil-Galad.

[00:53:01] And I think the next episode, he had a brilliant episode.

[00:53:03] His acting was absolutely unpointed.

[00:53:05] I said, I will never complain about an actor acting again.

[00:53:07] So I'm not here to judge their acting.

[00:53:10] He obviously just had.

[00:53:12] It's difficult to get Elvish.

[00:53:13] Some actors do it really well.

[00:53:15] I think Morsford Clark, because she's Welsh, her accent works really well with Elvish.

[00:53:20] And him trying to do a British accent from an American accent going into Elvish is probably

[00:53:24] very difficult.

[00:53:25] And I can't do it most of the time.

[00:53:27] The sounds, I think, you know, for Morford, the sounds are natural to her.

[00:53:31] And Tolkien based some of his Elvish off Welsh.

[00:53:33] So I think it was probably pretty, pretty natural to her.

[00:53:36] But yeah, I think they've all done an incredible job with him.

[00:53:39] And I loved his singing as well.

[00:53:40] Oh, absolutely.

[00:53:42] He did a great job.

[00:53:43] So yeah, I can't wait to see more because we know he's going to be around for a while.

[00:53:46] So yeah, that was awesome.

[00:53:48] Thanks so much, Penny.

[00:53:49] That was a great journey into some of those characters.

[00:53:53] How about you, Derek?

[00:53:55] I'm going to take us off to Rune, because we can finally say it.

[00:53:59] We have Gandalf, finally named in the show.

[00:54:05] And really what I want to talk about is actually Gandalf and Tom Bombadil, because I think seeing

[00:54:10] Tom Bombadil on screen and seeing the two of them acting together added a great dimension

[00:54:14] to the show.

[00:54:16] And I'm also being a bit cheeky because this is the bit that a lot of people that aren't

[00:54:20] massive Lord of the Rings fans complain about, the slowing down and the movement to the Harfoots.

[00:54:25] But it's something I absolutely love.

[00:54:27] We cover other fantasy shows on TV podcast industry.

[00:54:30] We've covered two seasons of Wheel of Time, for example.

[00:54:32] I'm not a big fan of Wheel of Time books.

[00:54:34] We've covered the show and I've enjoyed the show.

[00:54:36] But they are standard fantasy tales.

[00:54:39] They are a journey and they're standard characters becoming heroes.

[00:54:42] Whereas Lord of the Rings, for me, has always had that extra element with the Harfoots, the

[00:54:47] hobbits, the hope that's in the world underneath all of the darkness and all the big battles

[00:54:53] and all the people stabbing each other.

[00:54:55] We have a story of the Harfoots and Gandalf learning who he is with the help of friends.

[00:55:01] And that is really important to me.

[00:55:03] I feel like if we didn't have it in the show at all, it would be a lesser show.

[00:55:07] So while it's not everybody's favorite, I can understand that.

[00:55:10] But I feel it's really essential to the show.

[00:55:12] And having this introduction of Tom Bombadil, a character that I loved in my readings of

[00:55:18] Lord of the Rings many times, really enjoyed his segments.

[00:55:21] And he's always left out when they have an opportunity to include him in movies or in

[00:55:25] other translations, they've left him out.

[00:55:28] So bring him in here, played by Rory Kinnear, an actor I absolutely loved in almost everything

[00:55:32] he's done.

[00:55:33] He's just excellent on screen.

[00:55:36] Every time you see him, I'm going, yes, that's exactly my vision of this character in the book

[00:55:40] for me.

[00:55:41] I love his singing voice.

[00:55:42] I love his song.

[00:55:43] His song, the ballads of old Tom Bombadil.

[00:55:47] That was in my head for weeks.

[00:55:49] We were talking about it earlier.

[00:55:51] We were covering Agatha all along, which has a song in it that went through my head for

[00:55:54] weeks.

[00:55:54] And it would just alternate between down the road and the old Tom Bombadil song.

[00:55:59] So both of them would just go back and forth.

[00:56:01] So just really great to have them on here and really great to have a bit of joy and hope

[00:56:05] in the show, as well as just the battles for saving Middle Earth from the good guys and

[00:56:10] the bad guys.

[00:56:11] We also have that tale here.

[00:56:15] But I suppose I do have to address that thing of the stranger.

[00:56:19] So I do have a little bit of a negative on this, this keeping the stranger as the name

[00:56:25] of a character for a season and a half was absolutely wrecking my head.

[00:56:30] We all knew it was Gandalf from the first time he appeared in season one.

[00:56:35] And having it stretched out for as long as it was, it kind of to me, I was going when

[00:56:40] the reveal came, it just felt really late and there was still no reason for it.

[00:56:44] All of the scenes were so short with the characters.

[00:56:46] You could have had that reveal in episode three of season two and maybe done a little

[00:56:51] bit more with Gandalf for the rest of the season.

[00:56:54] It was a bit frustrating.

[00:56:55] And I feel like now that we have the Dark Wizard introduced, played by Kieran Hines, I feel

[00:57:00] like this is something the showrunners are now going to do every season.

[00:57:03] It feels like they want to have one character who doesn't have a name and they're going to

[00:57:07] stretch it out for a season.

[00:57:08] And it feels like now that's a core of how they're writing their rings of power story

[00:57:14] arc for a season.

[00:57:14] You must have one character, doesn't have a name.

[00:57:16] And by the end of the season, it will be revealed.

[00:57:18] And then we'll replace it with another character for season four.

[00:57:21] And then we'll replace it with another character for season five, something like that.

[00:57:23] So it was my only frustration about that side of the story.

[00:57:28] Yeah, I agree.

[00:57:29] I agree about that.

[00:57:30] And I think it was, you know, people who know the story knew for sure it was Gandalf so

[00:57:35] early on, you know, even before all these little breadcrumbs that they dropped.

[00:57:39] But the breadcrumbs were so obvious that I think even people who aren't that familiar

[00:57:43] with it probably guessed.

[00:57:44] And I don't think there's going to be that many people who, after 16 episodes, go, what?

[00:57:49] It's Gandalf?

[00:57:50] You know, like, what's the point in keeping it that long?

[00:57:52] And I also think that, you know, because I loved that storyline as well.

[00:57:57] I loved the idea of the hobbits or the halfwits.

[00:58:01] I loved getting to see Bombardoo.

[00:58:03] I loved getting to see Gandalf.

[00:58:04] But I almost think that keeping their climax at the end amongst all of the other stuff

[00:58:09] that was happening in Eregion diminished that, diminished the importance of it.

[00:58:13] I would have rather seen another peak kind of at episode four where that story would

[00:58:17] have happened.

[00:58:18] And it would have given it more weight when the other stuff around Anatar and Calabrimbo

[00:58:24] was still winding up.

[00:58:25] I think they could have, I don't know, I'm not an editor, but there could have been a way

[00:58:28] to do it which gave it more weight then and didn't detract as much as I felt it detracted

[00:58:34] a little bit from bouncing back and forth between the action and the final episode.

[00:58:39] Yeah.

[00:58:39] Yeah.

[00:58:40] Bombardoo.

[00:58:40] Oh my God, how amazing.

[00:58:41] Loved him.

[00:58:43] So good.

[00:58:44] That was fantastic.

[00:58:47] Awesome.

[00:58:47] Anything else from the from the lands of Rune, Derek?

[00:58:50] Well, the only other thing, and again, it's almost a criticism, but it's the farewell between

[00:58:56] Gandalf and the Harfoots.

[00:58:58] I felt like this was the first time the show might be capitulating to that critical audience

[00:59:03] who does want the battle scenes and that's all they want.

[00:59:07] And I feel really sad.

[00:59:09] I hope there's a storyline for the Harfoots.

[00:59:10] I hope we get to see them go and discover the Shire and we think that's where we're

[00:59:15] going, but they could easily hold off on that for season five and leave them out of

[00:59:21] the next season.

[00:59:21] And if they do that, that feels like something that could be capitulating to to that critical

[00:59:26] audience.

[00:59:27] But I did enjoy it.

[00:59:28] I thought it was I thought it was nice to see that side of that side of Middle Earth

[00:59:33] as well.

[00:59:33] We haven't seen Room before.

[00:59:34] And so seeing seeing that different part of the of the of Middle Earth.

[00:59:40] And I did like, as I say, the twist on the dark wizard, who, again, we don't know the

[00:59:46] name of, but we believed Saruman.

[00:59:49] But the producers of the show have said it's absolutely not Saruman.

[00:59:52] Don't believe.

[00:59:53] But how can it not be Saruman?

[00:59:56] Don't do it to us again.

[00:59:57] But I liked him being on the hunt for Gandalf and when they meet him, having this twist

[01:00:03] in who he is.

[01:00:05] He's a friend of Gandalf.

[01:00:06] He knows who he is.

[01:00:06] He knows his name, knows his history and says to him, I can give you all this knowledge

[01:00:10] if you join and work with me.

[01:00:11] I thought that was a great twist on that storyline.

[01:00:14] Yeah, I really did like it was something I was I enjoyed tuning into.

[01:00:18] But then it was a drip fed so short.

[01:00:20] It was like three or four minutes of a of an hour long episode.

[01:00:23] I think we could have got a bit more.

[01:00:24] Yeah, and the showrunners are being very obtuse.

[01:00:29] They are trying to sort of play the Tolkien card in a way, you know, how Tolkien wrote these

[01:00:35] stories, but he basically, you know, came across as being the conduit.

[01:00:42] He didn't make everything up.

[01:00:44] He was a historian who found out all the stuff about these different cultures and was the

[01:00:49] one who wrote it down.

[01:00:50] And in the interviews, they've been quite funny because they've sort of said, oh,

[01:00:54] we don't believe that it is Saruman.

[01:00:56] No, we're pretty sure that it's not.

[01:00:57] We're pretty certain that it's going to turn out to be someone that's not Saruman.

[01:01:01] I'm like, you know who he is.

[01:01:02] You're just not saying it.

[01:01:04] And I think it I think it can't be Saruman.

[01:01:06] I just think when I first saw him, I thought he looked, you know, had all these clues, but

[01:01:10] I just don't think they can make him be Saruman.

[01:01:12] It just doesn't suit and fit with this story later unless they go through some kind of he

[01:01:16] dies and then comes back and he's born anew and all this sort of stuff.

[01:01:20] I just think it works so much better if it is one of these culty blue wizards.

[01:01:24] And potentially, you know, he says to Gandalf, oh, you're the one who convinced me to come.

[01:01:28] Well, the two blue wizards, one convinced the other.

[01:01:31] So it could be that his little bit of amnesia when he first comes to Middle Earth and and

[01:01:36] wakes up is that he forgets which of the other wizards or the other Astari was the one

[01:01:42] who convinced him.

[01:01:43] So he thinks that maybe he's the other blue because I don't think he ever says his name.

[01:01:47] He doesn't say any of Gandalf's actual names to him.

[01:01:50] So it's not clear who he thinks he is.

[01:01:53] He just says old friend.

[01:01:54] So, yeah, let's just hope it's not.

[01:01:56] I think that would be a disappointment to me.

[01:01:58] I could live with Gandalf because they've kind of explained it well enough.

[01:02:01] But I think that, yeah, Saruman being evil and then turning good and then turning evil

[01:02:05] again.

[01:02:06] It's just too messy.

[01:02:09] Yeah.

[01:02:09] Yeah.

[01:02:10] OK.

[01:02:10] I mean, I know for me, I think, yeah, we discussed as well around the half foots.

[01:02:17] And I mean, for me anyway, personally, I actually kind of think it's critical that they keep

[01:02:23] them.

[01:02:23] I think it really is like integral to, I think, Tolkien's writing that it's yes, there are all

[01:02:34] these lords and kings and so on.

[01:02:37] But it is the it's the non titled smallest of folk that actually can affect change despite

[01:02:45] all these big, powerful balrogs and huge armies.

[01:02:53] And, you know, it's a theme that runs through, you know, whether it's an act of kindness and

[01:02:59] it's an act or a choice to to help or to hinder, to save or to kill those small moments and

[01:03:09] are the key points to the determination of the big canvases.

[01:03:16] And I think getting rid of the half foots would for me anyway, I think it would be a mistake

[01:03:23] because I think it's also that contrast.

[01:03:25] It it's it's the contrast to the elves and Sauron that these, you know, for want of a

[01:03:39] better word, I guess just normal folk living their lives and having consequence in the world,

[01:03:47] you know, and affecting that world as well.

[01:03:52] And so I really do hope they keep them.

[01:03:55] But I know what you mean at the end there.

[01:03:58] It was like, oh, no, this doesn't sound great.

[01:04:00] Our parts are parts of the church.

[01:04:02] Yes.

[01:04:03] Yeah, I think they'll stick around.

[01:04:05] I agree.

[01:04:05] I think they are a really vital part to demonstrate that kind of every man, little folk type thing.

[01:04:11] And also on a on a wider level that, you know, with the ultimate ending of this whole story,

[01:04:19] with Sauron being completely defeated with the ring going into Mount Doom and him not knowing

[01:04:24] or taking into any account the fact that there's these hobbits, these halflings, he paid no

[01:04:29] attention to them whatsoever.

[01:04:30] They had no impact on anything.

[01:04:32] It's not even that clear if he knew about them until he, you know, heard Gollum's ramblings

[01:04:37] about the Shire.

[01:04:39] And the idea that we can see them from this very early stage, just living their lives and

[01:04:44] cruising along is quite nice to know that they were there all along.

[01:04:48] And Sauron never really knew about them or paid any attention to them.

[01:04:51] So I think it would be great to have them.

[01:04:53] And it's a great visual contrast to all of the other races, as well as the kind of social

[01:04:59] contrast.

[01:05:00] And, you know, we've met the Harfoots, we've met the Stores.

[01:05:03] We know that there's a third strand of pre-hobbits called the Fallowhides.

[01:05:06] So I think it would be really cool if we got to meet them in season three and then potentially

[01:05:10] we could have season four and five leading towards them, settling the Shire, which would

[01:05:15] be really nice and a good kind of way to reach the other part of the story that we know.

[01:05:19] I think it would be really cool.

[01:05:20] So fingers crossed, I think, just to Petty's point earlier on, there's some wonderful creative

[01:05:25] stuff out there within the Rings of Power community.

[01:05:27] But as you guys have said before, there's some dark holes that you fall down with of

[01:05:32] the of the complainers who have been there since since since Tolkien and have been there

[01:05:38] since Peter Jackson was was making his movies saying it's not how I would have done it

[01:05:43] and much worse.

[01:05:44] So so I sometimes wonder if they if they will eventually affect the creation of the show.

[01:05:49] They haven't yet, as far as I can tell.

[01:05:50] And my my favorite review of this of this season of the show was in Empire magazine, where

[01:05:55] they said these showrunners made the show they wanted and they didn't care who wanted to watch

[01:06:00] it at all.

[01:06:00] They made the show they wanted.

[01:06:02] So hopefully they continue with that.

[01:06:04] Yeah.

[01:06:05] And season two was locked down before season one was was shown.

[01:06:10] So, you know, they may make some small changes in editing and things.

[01:06:13] But the storyline, they basically had to propose the five season storyline to to Amazon and to

[01:06:19] the Tolkien estate from the beginning.

[01:06:20] So I think the obviously small changes throughout that.

[01:06:24] But I think the structure is going to remain pretty much the same from what they had originally

[01:06:28] laid out.

[01:06:29] There's just so much material that you have to stick to a structural.

[01:06:31] You're never going to get through it.

[01:06:33] Absolutely.

[01:06:34] Five seasons for sure.

[01:06:35] Absolutely.

[01:06:37] Excellent.

[01:06:37] Yeah.

[01:06:37] So that's so those are my my big character pairing is got off Tom Bombadil.

[01:06:41] We've talked about some of the other ones already.

[01:06:42] I just wanted to just one of my other big ones was at our arc.

[01:06:46] But we have kind of talked about that already.

[01:06:48] So I think I'll hand it over to Anne.

[01:06:49] Who are your big pairings and characters?

[01:06:52] Thank you.

[01:06:52] Well, I've got it.

[01:06:53] I've got a few.

[01:06:54] But my first one that I do really want to talk about is Galadriel and Sauron.

[01:06:58] So we saw Galadriel and Halbrand together for most of season one.

[01:07:03] And then for this season, they were apart for most of the season until the very end.

[01:07:07] And you saw them have their own individual arcs throughout that time, but always kind of linked as well.

[01:07:13] And, you know, there's been a lot of talk about Galadriel being being gullible and how she fell for Halbrand slash Sauron's kind of tricks.

[01:07:24] And I really can see why she fell for Halbrand as an ally.

[01:07:28] You know, like I'm not sure about a lot of people talk about these romantic feelings and blah, blah.

[01:07:33] Maybe there's a little hint to that in that post battle scene in season one after the battle in the village.

[01:07:37] But there's a spark that they could have developed if they wanted.

[01:07:41] I'm really glad they didn't.

[01:07:42] But she so badly wanted to seek out the evil in Middle Earth for thousands of years.

[01:07:47] She'd been searching for him.

[01:07:48] And she so badly wanted to find an ally for that that she kind of talked herself into him and talked him into being the king of the Southlands.

[01:07:59] And I really liked how they portrayed that both through season one and then her kind of regret of that during season two as well.

[01:08:07] And, you know, like I said before, there's a lot of people shipping them, which is like, you know, even when he's clearly evil.

[01:08:16] And I've just got really big issues with this.

[01:08:19] I've got strong feelings about it.

[01:08:21] I understand the concept.

[01:08:23] You know, Penny, you talked about the fan art and the fan fiction, all that stuff.

[01:08:26] It's fun.

[01:08:27] I like seeing that.

[01:08:28] It's kind of cute.

[01:08:30] But and I understand the concept of living out scenarios through fantasy that you wouldn't ever actually live out in real life.

[01:08:37] You know, the bad boy concept or the kind of, you know, he's really evil, but he's so hot.

[01:08:42] That kind of stuff.

[01:08:44] Like for me, he's so abhorrent to me once he's Anitar.

[01:08:48] So how brand I got, even though I knew he was Sauron, I was kind of like, oh, this is kind of the repentant Sauron.

[01:08:52] And maybe he will try and swing one way or the other or whatever.

[01:08:55] He's got some quality that is appealing.

[01:08:58] But as soon as he's Anitar, I just found him repulsive in a good way, like amazing acting.

[01:09:05] But just the character himself, especially as he starts to unravel and he gets his little glinty eye and his little twitchy cheek.

[01:09:11] And, you know, he is a beautiful man.

[01:09:14] Once again, beautiful cast.

[01:09:16] But he's so, so evil as this character and terrifying how manipulative he is.

[01:09:22] You know, we'll go on later to talk about he and Calabrimboar.

[01:09:26] But the writers clearly understood this narcissistic abuse and what that looks like.

[01:09:31] And it's just for me, that transition from him and Galadriel's relationship to him being between him and her and Halbrand, the first season,

[01:09:42] and then her and Sauron in the second season is really incredible to see that transition and how they did it.

[01:09:48] But I thought it was cool on the second watch to go back and see Galadriel's vision that she has earlier in the season.

[01:09:55] Is the Halbrand version of Sauron that we see in their final battle?

[01:09:59] It's really quick.

[01:09:59] And so I think that if you weren't aware of it and you were just watching it, you go, oh, she sees the Halbrand.

[01:10:04] But it's the kind of shiny, curly-haired, battle-ready Halbrand that we see in their final battle together.

[01:10:12] I thought that was really cool how they tied the two of them.

[01:10:15] As I say, they spent the season apart, but they kept tying the two of them together.

[01:10:19] And filmically, I think it was done in a way that was quite similar to Aragorn and Arwen in the Lord of the Rings movies,

[01:10:25] where they spent most of the time physically apart.

[01:10:27] But they kept having those links to each other through thoughts or daydreams or visions or dreams.

[01:10:32] And I think they tied the two of them really closely together, which was cool.

[01:10:37] And the idea for Sauron that, you know, because again, the whole romantic thing,

[01:10:44] I don't think that he had a romantic vision of her or romantic feelings for her.

[01:10:50] I think they'd had this really powerful respect for her.

[01:10:53] He admired her power.

[01:10:54] He maybe even admires her light, you know, because he doesn't have the light.

[01:10:58] So he kind of wants that for himself.

[01:11:00] And he sees it in her and he wants to own it.

[01:11:03] You know, because make no mistake, he would still rule her if she joined him.

[01:11:08] You know, he talks about making her his queen and so on.

[01:11:10] But he would still be the boss.

[01:11:11] It's not an equal partnership that he's offering.

[01:11:15] And I love that fight between them.

[01:11:17] So when he still thinks he can convince her to join him, you know, it's so well done.

[01:11:22] And the first half of the fight is he's sort of toying with her and, you know, just fighting, you know, kind of just he's not giving his all to the fight.

[01:11:32] And after she says to him that the door is shut and she actually draws blood, he realizes that he hasn't convinced her.

[01:11:39] And he's just furious.

[01:11:40] And that's when it lets loose.

[01:11:42] And the rest of the battle is just no holds barred.

[01:11:44] It's just incredible.

[01:11:45] Fabulous.

[01:11:46] And I love how she said that, you know, he says the door is still open and she says the door is shut.

[01:11:52] And then it gets really into it.

[01:11:53] And I loved that.

[01:11:55] And it was just such fortuitous timing.

[01:11:59] My son, as I told you, was reading The Lord of the Rings and he'd just been reading Galadriel's Mirror.

[01:12:03] And there's a little part there where Galadriel is talking to Frodo.

[01:12:08] And she's talking about Sauron.

[01:12:10] And I've actually got the quote here.

[01:12:11] She says to Frodo, I perceive the Dark Lord and know his mind or all of his mind that concerns the Alps.

[01:12:18] And he gropes ever to see me and my thought.

[01:12:21] But still the door is closed.

[01:12:23] And we had just read that line together just before we saw this episode.

[01:12:27] And I love that they just always dipping into the law to find the words, you know, door is shut, door is closed, slightly different language.

[01:12:34] But I just love that they have that same imagery.

[01:12:36] And, you know, the idea that the link between Galadriel and Sauron is always there, you know, even thousands of years later going into the Third Age.

[01:12:45] For me, it gives even more weight to the scene in the movie and the books when she's tempted by the one ring.

[01:12:50] And she understands that pull that Sauron has for her and what he's offering kind of, you know, because it's almost still him and the ring offering it to her there, which is really cool.

[01:13:00] Yeah.

[01:13:01] And then when he shapeshifts into her and you've got two Galadrials fighting and he says, they could no longer distinguish me from the evil I was fighting.

[01:13:11] That's the line that she says to Halbrand in The Forge and Numenor in season one, which was very cool.

[01:13:17] Again, going back and watching it twice.

[01:13:19] And then Calabrimbor, are they not the seeds you planted?

[01:13:23] And I thought that was interesting that they included that line because that was from her vision in Lindon, which means, and for him to say it to her now in the Calabrimbor skin, means that either Sauron caused her to have that vision and planted it in her head then, or he can see into her mind now.

[01:13:41] So she's still not able to fully block him from her mind, which is, again, strengthens that bond between them.

[01:13:47] I think that was really interesting that they included that.

[01:13:49] And it took a little bit of reflecting and watching a few times to make me wonder about that because it's quite quick and in the heat of battle.

[01:13:56] But, you know, obviously he was there as Halbrand when she said that first line.

[01:14:00] But the line from Calabrimbor, how did he know that?

[01:14:03] Did he cause the vision or was he, can he still get into her mind, which is really cool.

[01:14:09] And then she's right on the edge of the cliff and she says, you want to heal Middle Earth.

[01:14:14] And he still has this kind of beatific smile as though he thinks that she's going to come around again and actually give him the ring.

[01:14:21] And then she jumps, of course.

[01:14:23] So I love this bond.

[01:14:25] I wonder if they'll continue their bond through the next seasons because, you know, story-wise so much else happens with Sauron and all of the other civilizations that's not related to Galadriel.

[01:14:37] I think it's been a great device to tell the story so far, but I don't, I'm curious as to see whether they'll continue that link or not.

[01:14:45] Yeah.

[01:14:46] What do you guys think?

[01:14:47] Do you think they're going to continue that bond between the two of them?

[01:14:49] Because it's been very close between the two of them for the two seasons.

[01:14:53] Yeah.

[01:14:54] I mean, I hope so.

[01:14:55] Because I think you're right.

[01:14:57] It's just that whole mechanism of having them linked is just really, really good.

[01:15:06] Aragon and...

[01:15:09] Arwen.

[01:15:10] Arwen, that's it.

[01:15:13] I'll stop again.

[01:15:14] Because with Arwen and Aragon, that is some of my favorite parts of Peter Jackson's movies, actually.

[01:15:25] Along with the score that kind of underlines them, it is really, really powerful.

[01:15:34] And I think it's a really powerful mechanism here as well.

[01:15:37] I think...

[01:15:39] So I hope so.

[01:15:43] I think it's been so well done for these first two seasons.

[01:15:50] I'm guessing they will do because there is that connection there.

[01:15:54] And as you say, it goes through to the Third Age.

[01:15:58] So I'm looking forward to what they can do with it, really.

[01:16:04] Even, you know, maybe it's a question of his mind as elsewhere.

[01:16:08] I mean, I know that's a little flippant.

[01:16:10] But, you know, that he...

[01:16:14] You know, he's looking for a queen.

[01:16:16] He thinks that Galadriel is his queen.

[01:16:21] That that kind of persists.

[01:16:25] You know, that Galadriel is, in some ways, a weakness for Sauron.

[01:16:30] And that would be kind of interesting to explore.

[01:16:35] You know, in the same way that Halbrand was a weakness for Galadriel.

[01:16:40] I mean, who doesn't like a Northern English accent anyway?

[01:16:43] That's all I'll say.

[01:16:45] That's why everyone shipped him then.

[01:16:48] And certainly I did.

[01:16:49] But I mean, I think, you know, moving into Anastar,

[01:16:54] where it takes more of a Southern English accent,

[01:16:56] then, yeah, you can see that it gets a little more evil.

[01:17:00] And...

[01:17:00] I love it.

[01:17:04] Well, I mean, it's that image of Season 2.

[01:17:08] You know, that angelic sort of reveal of Anastar coming out of the forge.

[01:17:14] It's, again, another painting, really.

[01:17:17] It's so...

[01:17:18] It just seers into your mind.

[01:17:21] And I think, you know, like we were saying,

[01:17:25] it's the fact that it's so angelic,

[01:17:28] yet there's a darkness around the eyes in the makeup that they do,

[01:17:33] which is so brilliant.

[01:17:34] And just to give that hint of the malevolence underneath this beauty,

[01:17:39] you know, coming out of the forge is so good.

[01:17:42] As well as, you know, Charlie Vickers' portrayal here.

[01:17:48] And just...

[01:17:49] It's so well done.

[01:17:51] But those little touches are so good.

[01:17:53] And I think that's, you know...

[01:17:55] Speaking of little touches,

[01:17:57] that link between Gladfield and Sauron,

[01:17:59] little touches through the remaining seasons,

[01:18:04] would just be, like, really good, I think.

[01:18:08] And to have that relationship across the space of Middle Earth.

[01:18:15] I think so.

[01:18:16] And like I said, I think, you know, he's got so much else to do.

[01:18:18] But if they can maintain that link,

[01:18:19] it'll strengthen it even more.

[01:18:21] And we get to the Lord of the Rings

[01:18:22] and we see the bond that they have

[01:18:24] or the connection that they have.

[01:18:25] And even in The Hobbit, too.

[01:18:27] I'm going to be doing a rewatch of The Hobbit movies.

[01:18:30] And there's a couple of really good scenes in there

[01:18:34] around Galadriel and Sauron, too.

[01:18:35] So just seeing that through line, I think, is great.

[01:18:38] And what a fun luxury for the showrunners to be able to do

[01:18:42] is to go back and create all of this stuff as a background,

[01:18:46] I think, is really great.

[01:18:48] Absolutely.

[01:18:48] Absolutely.

[01:18:49] I have to ask, since you've mentioned it,

[01:18:51] are you going to do the extended Hobbits or theatrical Hobbits?

[01:18:53] Well, it's going to depend, actually,

[01:18:55] because I believe they've taken Lord of the Rings and Hobbit

[01:18:58] off Amazon Prime.

[01:19:00] And so Amazon has just announced just today, actually,

[01:19:05] today or yesterday,

[01:19:06] that they're going to be releasing a purchasable gift set,

[01:19:12] box set, you know, basically streaming

[01:19:14] or online digital box set of the Lord of the Rings movies

[01:19:18] with a whole bunch of extra stuff.

[01:19:20] I don't know what that means to The Hobbit,

[01:19:22] but I know, I do understand that.

[01:19:24] I haven't checked my New Zealand Amazon yet,

[01:19:26] but I understand that they've recently taken

[01:19:28] the Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit off.

[01:19:30] And, you know, smart move if you're a business person.

[01:19:33] You get people all excited about Lord of the Rings again,

[01:19:36] and then you remove the free streaming off there

[01:19:38] and you make them pay for it.

[01:19:40] So I can understand it,

[01:19:41] but we have all of the extended editions on DVD

[01:19:43] of the Lord of the Rings, but not of The Hobbit.

[01:19:45] So whichever way I can watch them, we will see.

[01:19:49] And Sam is going to co-host with me as well.

[01:19:51] So we'll coordinate on that, I think, in the new year

[01:19:54] and see what we can come up with.

[01:19:56] But have you seen both versions, John and Derek?

[01:20:00] I literally re-watched the three extended Hobbits

[01:20:03] about a month ago.

[01:20:05] I really enjoyed them so much more

[01:20:07] than theatrical versions.

[01:20:09] I've been so much more.

[01:20:10] We'll try and find them.

[01:20:11] I mean, even if it's actually buying the DVDs

[01:20:14] and then extending our collection,

[01:20:16] you know, I think that's what I'm going to have.

[01:20:17] There you go.

[01:20:17] Why not?

[01:20:18] Why not?

[01:20:19] See, look at me.

[01:20:20] I just completely derailed the conversation.

[01:20:22] Talk about something else.

[01:20:23] You can't derail Tolkien by talking about Tolkien.

[01:20:27] You're good.

[01:20:27] You're good.

[01:20:28] No, that's awesome.

[01:20:29] All right.

[01:20:30] So I also have a couple more characters to get through.

[01:20:33] I wanted to make a quick mention

[01:20:34] about Miriel and Elendiel.

[01:20:36] I have loved every scene with these two.

[01:20:39] The first season, some of their scenes were so dramatic

[01:20:44] that they almost seemed too weighty,

[01:20:46] like bordering on crossing the line

[01:20:49] from dramatic to overdramatic.

[01:20:52] But by season two, I really buy their connection,

[01:20:55] you know, even more.

[01:20:57] And I really loved the chemistry between the two of them.

[01:21:00] And I'm fascinated by this connection that they have,

[01:21:03] which started as respect.

[01:21:05] She respected him and trusted him as her captain.

[01:21:07] And he had this loyalty to her as his queen.

[01:21:10] But then they bonded in the pyroclastic cloud,

[01:21:13] you know, like you do.

[01:21:14] And he kept the secret of her blindness for a while

[01:21:20] until they got back to safety.

[01:21:22] And in season two, their bonds seemed to grow deeper

[01:21:24] and deeper until finally they were willing to die

[01:21:26] for each other.

[01:21:27] So you have this scene, which I know we'll talk about later

[01:21:30] with the sea trial.

[01:21:31] But they got to the point where they would give up their life,

[01:21:34] you know, to save the other.

[01:21:36] And the scene in the prison cell between the two of them

[01:21:38] was so moving.

[01:21:40] All this powerful chemistry and her basically saying,

[01:21:43] what about my heart?

[01:21:44] So, you know, they're admitting their love for each other,

[01:21:47] really, that goes beyond this kind of courtly,

[01:21:49] you know, soldier or captain and queen love.

[01:21:53] And yet still they didn't kiss,

[01:21:55] which I thought was even more intimate.

[01:21:57] You know, they had this moment where they pressed

[01:21:58] their foreheads together and it was so beautiful

[01:22:00] and so poignant.

[01:22:03] You know, and now they've said goodbye.

[01:22:05] And we just, we don't know if they're going to see

[01:22:06] each other again.

[01:22:08] The chaos in Numenor is going to deepen.

[01:22:10] And, you know, we won't give away spoilers

[01:22:12] for people who don't know, you know,

[01:22:14] the ending of her story.

[01:22:15] But we just don't know.

[01:22:17] And I love that.

[01:22:18] I love that.

[01:22:19] That's something exciting to look forward to

[01:22:21] about whether that was the end

[01:22:22] or whether we're going to see them again.

[01:22:24] Certainly if they don't actually meet on screen,

[01:22:26] I think we'll see the impact of each other

[01:22:28] and their loss between the two of them.

[01:22:30] And I just thought it was beautifully done,

[01:22:32] beautifully acted.

[01:22:33] Again, two more beautiful creatures.

[01:22:35] Who couldn't look at both of them all day?

[01:22:37] Absolutely.

[01:22:38] Absolutely.

[01:22:39] I have to say that the whole Numenor storyline

[01:22:41] throughout this season has been really well handled

[01:22:44] to a point where we were going,

[01:22:45] why can't this be another spin-off show

[01:22:48] where it's Numenor like Game of Thrones?

[01:22:52] Because there's so much going on there.

[01:22:53] They have so many movements,

[01:22:55] so many different characters

[01:22:56] that get a bit of screen time.

[01:22:58] But it could be so deep

[01:23:00] and you could have full episodes based in Numenor.

[01:23:03] It's beautifully made.

[01:23:04] I really, really enjoyed it.

[01:23:06] But having that as an addition to the story

[01:23:09] of the Rings of Power has been really, really good.

[01:23:12] It's done a great job.

[01:23:13] It was one of the things

[01:23:14] that I was looking forward to the most

[01:23:15] because we hadn't seen it on screen.

[01:23:17] And I just think it was beautifully done.

[01:23:20] And again, they're condensing the timeline.

[01:23:22] So if you read the history of Numenor,

[01:23:24] there's stuff that goes on around that political stuff

[01:23:26] about the faithful and the king's men and so on

[01:23:28] that actually was going on for generations.

[01:23:30] And we're only sort of seeing it now

[01:23:32] within this one set of people.

[01:23:36] So I agree.

[01:23:37] I could just watch that.

[01:23:38] I could watch that all day as well.

[01:23:40] It was wonderful.

[01:23:42] And speaking of being able to watch people all day,

[01:23:44] I do need to mention my boy, Arondia.

[01:23:48] It's no secret that I adore him.

[01:23:52] Just a beautiful character played by a beautiful human.

[01:23:55] And in season one, I loved how he was just really different

[01:23:59] to the elves that we've seen before.

[01:24:00] You know, he's a soldier.

[01:24:02] He's more of a common elf.

[01:24:03] You know, all these other elves that we see

[01:24:05] are all kings and princes and princesses and lords.

[01:24:10] And I just love it.

[01:24:11] You know, he's still elegant like the other elves are,

[01:24:14] but he's just so grounded.

[01:24:16] And it's like he's part of the land.

[01:24:18] You know, he's a wood elf.

[01:24:19] The way they designed his breastplate to look like a tree

[01:24:24] is just incredible.

[01:24:26] He also has, you know, he involved himself

[01:24:28] with the village that he was protecting as well.

[01:24:31] He got to know the people and fell in love with one of them.

[01:24:34] You know, I loved his fighting style.

[01:24:36] He's so acrobatic, but in a really different way to Legolas.

[01:24:40] So he's our touchstone for the outfit

[01:24:43] that flies around and does cool stuff.

[01:24:45] You know, Orlando Bloom portraying Legolas was really light

[01:24:49] and he sort of seemed to float over everything.

[01:24:52] Arandir keeps really low to the ground

[01:24:54] and he sort of spins and does all these kicks

[01:24:56] and he just looks totally awesome.

[01:24:59] You know, season two, we see this whole new kind of layer

[01:25:02] of him as well dealing with grief.

[01:25:04] And we know for outside story reasons

[01:25:06] that Nazanin Boneyardi was not going to return to play Bronwyn.

[01:25:10] She chose not to come back for season two.

[01:25:13] But still, that first scene in season two

[01:25:16] where we see Arandir, he sweeps in

[01:25:18] and he saves Isildur and Estrid.

[01:25:21] But then he just picks up the stack of firewood

[01:25:23] for the funeral pyre and he trudges off slowly

[01:25:26] saying, I have my own business to attend to.

[01:25:28] It was just heartbreaking.

[01:25:29] You know what he's going to do.

[01:25:32] I loved that he was suspicious of Estrid

[01:25:34] and the scene with the nameless thing was really great.

[01:25:38] You know, when they get sucked into that swamp,

[01:25:42] giving all of us Gen X people a bit of a bad flashback

[01:25:46] to the swamps of sadness and the never-ending story.

[01:25:50] Absolutely.

[01:25:51] They got spat out and I think that was the first time

[01:25:54] we see him smile as well when he's got dinner on a stick there.

[01:25:58] But the best scene with him was with Winterbloom, the Entruth.

[01:26:03] And, you know, she's about to destroy them

[01:26:06] and she's distraught over the loss of all of her trees

[01:26:10] that she had grown from seedlings.

[01:26:14] And he connects with her by speaking Elvish

[01:26:17] and then he soothes her with this promise of protecting the forest.

[01:26:22] It was so beautiful.

[01:26:23] I could just watch that a hundred times.

[01:26:25] Sometimes he, you know, he identifies with her grief.

[01:26:28] And I know Ismael Cruz Cordova,

[01:26:30] he brought his own experience to this scene

[01:26:32] because he's lost his sister in real life.

[01:26:34] And it was just so sad to watch.

[01:26:36] My heart went out to the character and to the actor as well,

[01:26:39] just watching that scene.

[01:26:40] I thought it was so beautifully, beautifully done

[01:26:42] and a little bit too short.

[01:26:43] I could have watched that a bit longer, you know.

[01:26:45] It was gorgeous.

[01:26:47] Then, of course, he comes back and kicks butt later.

[01:26:50] He survives a stabbing by Adar

[01:26:52] and he ends up with the most powerful elves in Middle Earth

[01:26:57] standing there on the cliff above Rivendell.

[01:27:00] In an interview, Ismael called them the Avenge Elves.

[01:27:04] Which is like, he's finally one of the important dudes.

[01:27:09] He's standing with the Avenge Elves.

[01:27:11] And then Ben Walker is like, assemble, Avenge Elves, assemble.

[01:27:15] It was really cute.

[01:27:16] But yeah, a lot of people were worried

[01:27:19] that he had been killed by Adar.

[01:27:21] And I was like, nah, there's no way.

[01:27:22] He's too much of a fan favourite and he's just awesome.

[01:27:25] Some of these non-canon characters,

[01:27:26] you can do what you like with them.

[01:27:28] And I think they're really important to have

[01:27:29] to drive the story along as you go through.

[01:27:31] So let's wait and see what happens with him.

[01:27:34] Absolutely.

[01:27:35] I would just have liked a line though.

[01:27:38] I know we, I'm sure we all said it on our podcast

[01:27:40] about the show.

[01:27:41] So having him stabbed, falling down off screen

[01:27:44] and then literally just walking back in next episode,

[01:27:47] not even mentioning it.

[01:27:47] Nobody mentioned it at all.

[01:27:49] I was kind of going, could you just say,

[01:27:51] oh, that was a bit tough.

[01:27:52] I'm glad somebody was able to put a bandage on me

[01:27:54] or something.

[01:27:56] Or someone, you know, healed him with a ring

[01:27:58] or something like that.

[01:27:59] Something, yes.

[01:28:00] I mean, I just wonder whether a huge amount

[01:28:03] of these scenes were filmed

[01:28:04] and then just cut for timing reasons, you know.

[01:28:06] And we just, they can assume that we can assume

[01:28:09] that just happened.

[01:28:11] And so, yeah, would have been good to see.

[01:28:13] Yeah.

[01:28:14] Yeah.

[01:28:15] And wasn't there, there was another element of that

[01:28:18] where the Tolkien estate asked for more from Adar

[01:28:21] when they saw the Adar character.

[01:28:23] They asked for more to be added.

[01:28:24] So you would assume that that battle scene

[01:28:26] in episode seven didn't exist

[01:28:28] before the estate asked for more from Adar.

[01:28:31] So perhaps having that extra scene with Arandir

[01:28:35] with Adar wouldn't have existed at all.

[01:28:37] So when they filmed the finale, maybe they didn't need

[01:28:39] to reference it.

[01:28:40] Yeah.

[01:28:41] I understand he was actually in the original script

[01:28:43] going to die quite a lot earlier

[01:28:45] and they wanted more of him.

[01:28:47] So I think it's great.

[01:28:48] I think they did a great job with him.

[01:28:49] And, you know, if we can, if that means

[01:28:51] that we sacrifice a few more seconds

[01:28:53] of Adar and dear healing, then we'll live with that.

[01:28:56] That's all right.

[01:28:58] And then my last honorable mention

[01:29:01] is Valendiel and Kemen,

[01:29:03] played by my Kiwi boys, Alex Tarrant

[01:29:05] and Leon Warden.

[01:29:06] I just loved their scenes together

[01:29:08] and how they each started out as these young men

[01:29:11] that fate kind of threw together.

[01:29:14] And they took very, very different paths.

[01:29:16] You know, just Valendiel was so loyal

[01:29:21] and steadfast.

[01:29:21] He's proud.

[01:29:22] He's valiant.

[01:29:23] And then you've got Kemen

[01:29:25] with this awful background of his

[01:29:27] with obviously just this father

[01:29:29] who doesn't respect him.

[01:29:31] And, you know, that scene where he told him

[01:29:33] that his mother had foresaw him

[01:29:35] that he was going to be,

[01:29:37] just terrible things were going to happen to him.

[01:29:39] I mean, who says that to their kid?

[01:29:40] It was horrible.

[01:29:41] Just led to all of these bad choices,

[01:29:43] which I think are going to escalate

[01:29:44] and get even more dark and terrible.

[01:29:47] Who knows where they're going to lead?

[01:29:48] I think some people have got theories,

[01:29:50] but we might keep it spoiler free.

[01:29:54] But, yeah, Leon Wadham's amazing face acting,

[01:29:58] I think through all those scenes,

[01:29:59] was incredible.

[01:30:00] Just the different conflicts and emotions

[01:30:02] that you see crossing over his face

[01:30:04] as he's trying to present this image of toughness.

[01:30:07] And really, he's just lost

[01:30:09] and he just has to take this path.

[01:30:11] Yeah, I thought they're incredible.

[01:30:12] I loved them together.

[01:30:14] And R.I.P. Valendiel.

[01:30:17] Absolutely.

[01:30:18] Absolutely.

[01:30:20] Not only who tells their child

[01:30:22] that their mother had visions of them

[01:30:24] and all the bad things they're going to do,

[01:30:25] but who says to their child,

[01:30:27] and I'll tell you what those visions are

[01:30:28] if you carry out this mission for me,

[01:30:30] and then says,

[01:30:31] you didn't carry out the mission,

[01:30:32] so I'm not telling you.

[01:30:33] It's the most abusive parenting.

[01:30:36] Absolutely.

[01:30:37] It's absolutely cool.

[01:30:38] Yeah.

[01:30:39] If you do this for me,

[01:30:40] I'll get you a present for Christmas,

[01:30:41] but then you didn't do it,

[01:30:42] so you're not getting your presents, basically.

[01:30:44] A present is one thing.

[01:30:46] The words about you from your dead mom,

[01:30:48] I mean, you don't hold that over your kid.

[01:30:51] That's unconscionable.

[01:30:53] Absolutely.

[01:30:54] Yeah, and that's it.

[01:30:55] I kind of like,

[01:30:56] yeah, everyone talks about Kemin

[01:30:58] having a punchable face

[01:30:59] and just being a detestable character

[01:31:01] and being like Joffrey and so on.

[01:31:02] I do have a lot of heart and feelings for Kemin

[01:31:06] because I just think he's,

[01:31:09] yes, he made choices

[01:31:10] and he could have chosen otherwise,

[01:31:12] but I can see how he made those choices as well

[01:31:14] from this background,

[01:31:15] and it just makes him a more layered

[01:31:17] and complex character, which I like.

[01:31:18] Especially if he gets super evil later,

[01:31:20] but just because, you know,

[01:31:21] you got to see him at the beginning.

[01:31:22] And when he first, in season one,

[01:31:24] when he first met Iari,

[01:31:25] and I was like,

[01:31:26] aw, they're so cute.

[01:31:27] He seems nice.

[01:31:27] And so it's really cool to see

[01:31:29] the descent into the darkness with him.

[01:31:31] So yeah, that was awesome.

[01:31:33] And like I've said before,

[01:31:35] having these two Kiwi boys

[01:31:36] in a huge production is pretty fun.

[01:31:39] So that's awesome.

[01:31:41] All right.

[01:31:41] Well, we have covered a huge number of the characters,

[01:31:45] but the biggest pairing,

[01:31:48] I think for everybody,

[01:31:49] we would agree that it is Anatar and Kelle Brimboa.

[01:31:53] Who would like to start off

[01:31:54] with their thoughts about these two?

[01:31:56] I'll go.

[01:31:59] I, the story of Kelle Brimboa and Anatar

[01:32:02] was very personally affecting to me.

[01:32:06] I have personal experience

[01:32:08] with a narcissistic abuser.

[01:32:09] And so watching it play out on screen

[01:32:13] and having it be so realistic and believable,

[01:32:18] the way that Anatar was able to manipulate

[01:32:22] not just Kelle Brimboa,

[01:32:24] but the people around him

[01:32:26] and the things that he did,

[01:32:28] like gaslighting him,

[01:32:31] you know, like creating a fake environment

[01:32:33] so that he didn't know what was real

[01:32:35] and what wasn't real

[01:32:36] and smearing his reputation

[01:32:38] with his, with the other people in the forge

[01:32:41] so that when he did wake up

[01:32:44] to what was going on,

[01:32:45] they didn't believe him

[01:32:46] and he couldn't get help.

[01:32:47] Those things were so emotionally impactful.

[01:32:53] I think that there are a lot of people

[01:32:56] in the world who have suffered

[01:32:57] from a narcissist

[01:32:59] and being able to see it depicted on screen

[01:33:02] in this way

[01:33:04] and having the character of Anatar

[01:33:06] so obviously evil

[01:33:08] was sort of a bomb.

[01:33:13] Like I was like,

[01:33:14] yeah, don't depict the narcissist

[01:33:16] as just being like full of themselves.

[01:33:18] That's not what it is.

[01:33:19] It's this completely like inability

[01:33:22] to see other people

[01:33:24] as anything other than tools

[01:33:26] that relate to you

[01:33:27] and how they relate to you

[01:33:29] and anything else about them

[01:33:29] just doesn't matter.

[01:33:30] And I have the deepest respect

[01:33:34] for the writers

[01:33:35] and how they handled that

[01:33:37] and I thought that the performances

[01:33:39] were absolutely stellar.

[01:33:42] I love that Charlie Vickers

[01:33:44] and Charlie Edwards

[01:33:45] are really good buddies off screen.

[01:33:48] They seem to love each other

[01:33:50] and they joke around a lot

[01:33:52] and I just,

[01:33:53] I have this sort of image in my mind

[01:33:55] of how it must have been on set

[01:33:56] to be like,

[01:33:57] cruelty, cruelty, cruelty,

[01:33:58] jokey, jokey, jokey,

[01:34:00] cruelty, cruelty, jokey.

[01:34:01] Like I just,

[01:34:02] I think it must have been

[01:34:03] a really weird experience

[01:34:04] for both of them.

[01:34:06] I did see a really funny interview

[01:34:08] where Ben Daniels,

[01:34:10] they did this thing

[01:34:10] where actors were interviewing each other

[01:34:12] and Ben Daniels asked Charlie Edwards

[01:34:14] what he thinks is next for his character

[01:34:17] and Charlie Edwards was like,

[01:34:19] uh, he's quite dead.

[01:34:22] He's not coming back yet.

[01:34:23] I don't think anything is up

[01:34:25] for my character next.

[01:34:26] It was really funny.

[01:34:28] I think the Charlies

[01:34:29] are going to miss working together.

[01:34:30] I think they,

[01:34:31] they developed quite a real life bond,

[01:34:33] but, um,

[01:34:35] that story was the linchpin

[01:34:37] of the whole season.

[01:34:38] I mean, it's where we,

[01:34:40] we got to witness

[01:34:44] why Sauron is evil, right?

[01:34:46] All of season one,

[01:34:48] even if you like

[01:34:49] are friends with Anwen

[01:34:51] and she told you that

[01:34:52] Halbrand is probably Sauron,

[01:34:53] so you had it in the back of your head.

[01:34:55] It was like,

[01:34:58] either it was a potentially repentant Sauron

[01:35:01] or it was,

[01:35:03] he was playing such a good deceptive game

[01:35:05] that it seemed like he was repentant.

[01:35:07] But at no point in season one

[01:35:09] until the very end,

[01:35:10] did he do anything evil,

[01:35:13] right?

[01:35:14] And then,

[01:35:17] to see

[01:35:19] the evil

[01:35:20] and to understand

[01:35:21] that the reason Sauron is evil

[01:35:23] is because

[01:35:24] he doesn't have empathy

[01:35:27] and,

[01:35:28] and literally can't

[01:35:30] be a good person

[01:35:32] because of that

[01:35:33] was,

[01:35:33] was wonderful.

[01:35:35] because even in the Lord of the Rings

[01:35:37] books and the movies,

[01:35:39] and I'll be honest,

[01:35:41] I have not seen all the Hobbit movies,

[01:35:42] but I read the Hobbit books.

[01:35:43] Sauron is this

[01:35:45] ambiguous,

[01:35:46] vague figure of evil

[01:35:47] and he's evil

[01:35:49] because you're told he's evil

[01:35:50] and you know he's evil

[01:35:51] and that's it.

[01:35:52] Being able to see him

[01:35:54] be evil on screen

[01:35:56] in front of us

[01:35:57] day to day

[01:35:58] with a character

[01:35:59] that we had great affection for

[01:36:03] was so much richer

[01:36:05] of an experience

[01:36:06] than him being a great eye

[01:36:08] in the sky

[01:36:08] to me.

[01:36:09] Absolutely, yeah.

[01:36:11] Yeah.

[01:36:11] Like,

[01:36:12] it's interesting that

[01:36:13] the flashback to Halbrand

[01:36:16] effectively from season one

[01:36:18] and it,

[01:36:19] you,

[01:36:19] you see him

[01:36:21] that moment with the ship

[01:36:23] as it's sort of about to

[01:36:26] sort of go down

[01:36:27] and capsize

[01:36:29] and whether he saves

[01:36:31] the man

[01:36:31] that sort of stopped him

[01:36:33] on the road

[01:36:34] and you realize

[01:36:35] that even being good

[01:36:37] is a tool for him.

[01:36:38] It's,

[01:36:39] I think,

[01:36:40] I think the line

[01:36:41] is something along

[01:36:41] the lines of,

[01:36:43] you know,

[01:36:44] I'll choose,

[01:36:45] I think he talks

[01:36:46] to the guy,

[01:36:48] the old man

[01:36:49] to say

[01:36:49] sort of,

[01:36:52] you know,

[01:36:52] I'll be good today

[01:36:54] because that's what

[01:36:55] I need to do

[01:36:56] kind of thing

[01:36:56] and that's just

[01:36:59] so,

[01:37:00] like,

[01:37:01] horrific

[01:37:01] when you think about it

[01:37:04] in the whole of this

[01:37:06] and I mean,

[01:37:07] yeah,

[01:37:07] I mean,

[01:37:08] I can't really

[01:37:11] say an awful lot more

[01:37:13] than what Penny said.

[01:37:15] This is really the glue

[01:37:17] for season two

[01:37:19] and it's played

[01:37:22] so well

[01:37:23] and I like the contrast.

[01:37:24] I like that

[01:37:25] Anatar is

[01:37:26] this angelic figure

[01:37:29] and,

[01:37:30] as I say,

[01:37:31] but you,

[01:37:33] but the evil,

[01:37:34] the narcissism,

[01:37:35] the depravity,

[01:37:37] depravity of us,

[01:37:38] the viciousness

[01:37:39] and the lack

[01:37:41] of empathy

[01:37:41] and it's even like

[01:37:43] with,

[01:37:44] was Halbran's

[01:37:45] that kind of,

[01:37:46] it's almost like,

[01:37:47] you know,

[01:37:48] he's the grubby

[01:37:49] down on his luck

[01:37:50] almost.

[01:37:50] So there's a sympathy

[01:37:51] there,

[01:37:52] even though in the end

[01:37:54] you,

[01:37:55] really what this season

[01:37:56] is saying is that

[01:37:57] you're hoodwinked.

[01:37:58] That's why

[01:37:59] Galadriel was hoodwinked

[01:38:01] as well

[01:38:02] and,

[01:38:03] but these two

[01:38:05] like,

[01:38:05] were just

[01:38:07] absolutely

[01:38:09] superb,

[01:38:09] I think.

[01:38:10] I mean,

[01:38:10] it was,

[01:38:11] the narcissistic

[01:38:13] bully,

[01:38:14] I mean,

[01:38:14] just turning it on,

[01:38:16] well,

[01:38:16] it's,

[01:38:17] you know,

[01:38:17] your fault,

[01:38:18] Kevin Brimble,

[01:38:19] you're,

[01:38:19] you know,

[01:38:20] you're the one

[01:38:21] that is making me

[01:38:22] do these things.

[01:38:23] I mean,

[01:38:24] it's just so,

[01:38:25] like,

[01:38:25] you can't really,

[01:38:28] you don't have an answer

[01:38:29] to that kind of rationale

[01:38:31] and,

[01:38:32] and that's really,

[01:38:33] really frightening

[01:38:34] and I think

[01:38:36] it was just a superb

[01:38:39] and pairing

[01:38:40] and it's like we

[01:38:42] kind of say

[01:38:43] a lot

[01:38:44] in,

[01:38:45] in a lot of the shows

[01:38:46] that we cover,

[01:38:47] sometimes there are moments

[01:38:48] where it's like,

[01:38:49] it's like a stage play

[01:38:51] and because it was

[01:38:52] sort of in that

[01:38:53] forge

[01:38:55] set

[01:38:56] for so long,

[01:38:57] it almost becomes

[01:38:58] like a stage play

[01:39:00] and like,

[01:39:00] you can

[01:39:00] almost just look

[01:39:02] at this

[01:39:04] throughout the whole season

[01:39:05] and just the,

[01:39:06] the elements

[01:39:07] as it plays out

[01:39:08] and,

[01:39:09] yeah,

[01:39:10] I mean,

[01:39:10] the,

[01:39:11] the,

[01:39:11] it was really

[01:39:12] great,

[01:39:13] the,

[01:39:13] the intimacy,

[01:39:15] the degradation

[01:39:16] of it

[01:39:18] to the point

[01:39:19] where,

[01:39:20] you know,

[01:39:21] the reality

[01:39:21] is being changed

[01:39:23] for him as well

[01:39:24] and,

[01:39:25] okay,

[01:39:26] it's,

[01:39:27] you know,

[01:39:29] it's magic

[01:39:30] in that sense,

[01:39:31] it's the,

[01:39:32] the power of Sauron

[01:39:33] but it also speaks

[01:39:34] to the fact

[01:39:35] that

[01:39:38] evil people

[01:39:39] change

[01:39:40] other people's

[01:39:41] reality

[01:39:42] just by being evil

[01:39:44] and,

[01:39:45] so yeah,

[01:39:45] really good.

[01:39:47] Yeah,

[01:39:47] I,

[01:39:47] I agree,

[01:39:49] I,

[01:39:49] I thought

[01:39:49] the pairing

[01:39:50] of the two of them

[01:39:50] and the acting

[01:39:51] was incredible.

[01:39:52] I was worried

[01:39:53] at the very beginning,

[01:39:54] especially sort of season one

[01:39:55] when we first see

[01:39:56] Caleb Rimbaw,

[01:39:57] he kind of was a little bit

[01:39:58] bumbling uncle

[01:39:59] kind of like,

[01:40:00] you know,

[01:40:01] he,

[01:40:02] he was,

[01:40:02] he was quite gentle

[01:40:03] and he was,

[01:40:04] you know,

[01:40:05] a little bit flippant

[01:40:06] about some things

[01:40:07] and I wondered

[01:40:08] how they were going

[01:40:09] to get across

[01:40:10] both aspects

[01:40:11] of him being

[01:40:13] extremely knowledgeable,

[01:40:14] extremely well respected

[01:40:16] and incredible

[01:40:17] craftsman

[01:40:18] and also to show him

[01:40:20] being manipulated

[01:40:22] and eventually

[01:40:23] tortured and killed

[01:40:24] by,

[01:40:24] by Sauron

[01:40:26] and I was nervous

[01:40:27] about how that was

[01:40:28] going to be portrayed

[01:40:29] but I was

[01:40:30] thoroughly satisfied,

[01:40:31] like I just don't think

[01:40:32] they could have done

[01:40:33] a better job

[01:40:33] and one of the things

[01:40:34] that I loved about it

[01:40:35] so much was

[01:40:36] the fact that

[01:40:37] Charles Edwards

[01:40:38] was able to

[01:40:39] get across

[01:40:40] and maintain

[01:40:41] Caleb Rimbaw's

[01:40:42] dignity

[01:40:43] throughout

[01:40:43] so at the beginning

[01:40:45] he kind of,

[01:40:45] again,

[01:40:46] he sort of tricked

[01:40:47] and he,

[01:40:48] you know,

[01:40:48] there's that sort of moment

[01:40:49] where I guess

[01:40:50] where he sort of turns

[01:40:50] and it was,

[01:40:51] it's right after

[01:40:52] Madania puts the ring on

[01:40:54] and,

[01:40:55] and they realise that they,

[01:40:57] you know,

[01:40:57] he realises that

[01:40:58] they do need his help

[01:41:01] from then on

[01:41:03] he was able to maintain

[01:41:05] the dignity

[01:41:06] of Caleb Rimbaw

[01:41:08] even right to the end

[01:41:09] when he's being tortured

[01:41:10] and he's lying there

[01:41:11] and,

[01:41:12] and,

[01:41:12] you know,

[01:41:13] and he says those words

[01:41:14] to,

[01:41:14] to Sauron

[01:41:15] um,

[01:41:16] he's just so sure

[01:41:18] in himself

[01:41:18] and in his own goodness

[01:41:19] and in the fact

[01:41:20] that he's going to be

[01:41:20] going to Valinor

[01:41:21] and so on

[01:41:22] where,

[01:41:23] um,

[01:41:23] where Sauron won't be

[01:41:24] so I just thought

[01:41:26] it was,

[01:41:26] it was so beautifully

[01:41:27] portrayed

[01:41:27] and so well done

[01:41:28] and that,

[01:41:29] that,

[01:41:29] the tear that rolled down

[01:41:31] Sauron's face

[01:41:32] at the end there

[01:41:33] was really moving as well

[01:41:35] so many theories

[01:41:37] about what that tear

[01:41:38] might have meant

[01:41:39] um,

[01:41:40] but yeah,

[01:41:41] just an incredible

[01:41:41] amazing scene

[01:41:42] and I think they paid

[01:41:43] good tribute

[01:41:44] to the Celebrim banner

[01:41:45] which we've been calling it

[01:41:47] um,

[01:41:47] without actually showing

[01:41:48] so in the,

[01:41:49] in the book

[01:41:49] he's put on a pike

[01:41:50] and paraded in front

[01:41:51] of the Elvish army

[01:41:53] I think that would have

[01:41:54] been too gruesome

[01:41:55] and I loved that

[01:41:56] like,

[01:41:56] like you say

[01:41:57] John,

[01:41:58] that kind of intimacy

[01:41:59] of them being

[01:42:00] in the forge together

[01:42:01] and just having

[01:42:01] that kind of scene

[01:42:02] and they still

[01:42:03] paid tribute to it

[01:42:04] by having him

[01:42:04] raised up on the,

[01:42:05] on the pike

[01:42:06] against the column

[01:42:06] I thought it was

[01:42:07] really well done

[01:42:08] Yeah,

[01:42:09] yeah,

[01:42:09] absolutely,

[01:42:10] absolutely

[01:42:10] I can't doubt

[01:42:11] anything else

[01:42:12] you've all said

[01:42:13] the best things

[01:42:14] about,

[01:42:14] about these two characters

[01:42:15] they've been,

[01:42:16] they've just been

[01:42:16] so fantastic on screen

[01:42:17] they've been,

[01:42:17] it's so good

[01:42:18] to watch together

[01:42:19] and I do love the,

[01:42:21] again,

[01:42:21] I'll,

[01:42:21] I'll bring in a meme

[01:42:22] since I have nothing

[01:42:22] else to say

[01:42:23] I do love

[01:42:24] that they have,

[01:42:26] have Calibur

[01:42:26] going outside

[01:42:27] with his morning coffee

[01:42:28] as the city burns

[01:42:29] and the idea

[01:42:30] that all of the elves

[01:42:32] are looking up

[01:42:32] and I'm going,

[01:42:33] is he not noticing

[01:42:34] what's going on

[01:42:35] in the city

[01:42:35] right underneath his feet

[01:42:36] he's walking out

[01:42:38] as if it's a beautiful

[01:42:38] day outside

[01:42:39] I always thought

[01:42:40] that was quite funny

[01:42:40] so,

[01:42:40] but yes,

[01:42:41] they're wonderful

[01:42:42] performances

[01:42:43] and wonderful characters

[01:42:43] I really enjoyed them

[01:42:46] brilliant,

[01:42:47] well,

[01:42:47] we have,

[01:42:47] we have done

[01:42:48] a pretty good job

[01:42:49] I think about

[01:42:49] covering

[01:42:51] all of the characters

[01:42:52] that we enjoyed

[01:42:53] from season two

[01:42:55] we're going to go

[01:42:55] into a little bit

[01:42:56] of feedback now

[01:42:57] about season two

[01:42:58] would you like

[01:42:59] to start us off

[01:43:00] there Derek?

[01:43:01] Absolutely,

[01:43:02] yes,

[01:43:02] our first piece of

[01:43:02] feedback comes in

[01:43:03] from Alma Contreras

[01:43:04] who says,

[01:43:04] well,

[01:43:05] I love the hell

[01:43:05] out of the elves

[01:43:06] they are so regal

[01:43:07] and beautiful

[01:43:08] that being said

[01:43:09] I just can't help

[01:43:10] loving the big bad

[01:43:10] villain Sauron

[01:43:11] I wonder what

[01:43:12] that says about me

[01:43:14] I really hope

[01:43:15] we see a little

[01:43:16] more character

[01:43:16] development with

[01:43:17] the sealed door

[01:43:17] so I can switch

[01:43:18] my alliance

[01:43:18] as of now

[01:43:19] we haven't had much

[01:43:20] but what we know

[01:43:21] is he will become

[01:43:22] a great leader

[01:43:22] slash king

[01:43:23] and I can't wait

[01:43:24] to see that unfold

[01:43:25] I also can't wait

[01:43:26] to see the dwarf

[01:43:27] and men rings

[01:43:27] get distributed

[01:43:29] though I do think

[01:43:30] this will take

[01:43:31] more than the next

[01:43:32] season

[01:43:32] Penny and Anwen

[01:43:33] you ladies have done

[01:43:34] a fantastic job

[01:43:35] with this podcast

[01:43:35] thank you for all

[01:43:36] y'all put into it

[01:43:37] thanks Alma

[01:43:38] that's a great

[01:43:39] compliment for Penny

[01:43:40] and Anwen

[01:43:41] they have done

[01:43:41] a fantastic job

[01:43:42] I've enjoyed

[01:43:42] listening along

[01:43:43] every single week

[01:43:44] to the podcast

[01:43:44] as well

[01:43:46] thanks guys

[01:43:47] yeah good stuff

[01:43:49] thanks Alma

[01:43:50] we also have

[01:43:51] some feedback

[01:43:52] from Mark McBurney

[01:43:54] Mark says

[01:43:56] I enjoyed

[01:43:56] the first season

[01:43:57] but it did feel

[01:43:58] slow at times

[01:43:59] as they were

[01:43:59] world building

[01:44:00] so season 2

[01:44:01] was a big

[01:44:02] improvement

[01:44:03] as the storytelling

[01:44:04] was much bigger

[01:44:05] and better

[01:44:06] highlights of

[01:44:07] the season

[01:44:08] Sauron revealing

[01:44:09] himself as

[01:44:10] Tolkien Jesus

[01:44:11] to

[01:44:12] Kellen Brimbo

[01:44:12] was beautifully

[01:44:13] done

[01:44:14] the siege

[01:44:15] of Eregion

[01:44:15] was brilliant

[01:44:16] from start

[01:44:17] to finish

[01:44:17] and for me

[01:44:18] rivaled only

[01:44:19] by the battle

[01:44:20] at Helm's Deep

[01:44:21] the fight scene

[01:44:22] between

[01:44:22] Collateral

[01:44:23] versus Tolkien

[01:44:24] Jesus

[01:44:24] choreographed

[01:44:25] brilliantly

[01:44:26] although I

[01:44:27] would have

[01:44:28] loved to have

[01:44:28] seen him

[01:44:29] don the helmet

[01:44:30] of Morgoth

[01:44:31] at the end

[01:44:31] I was not

[01:44:32] invested in

[01:44:33] the Numenor

[01:44:34] aspect of this

[01:44:35] season

[01:44:35] until the

[01:44:36] death

[01:44:36] of

[01:44:37] Volandil

[01:44:37] but it

[01:44:38] really did

[01:44:39] pick up

[01:44:40] from there

[01:44:40] so I'm

[01:44:41] happy about

[01:44:42] that

[01:44:42] the low

[01:44:43] point

[01:44:44] the unveil

[01:44:45] of the

[01:44:45] stranger

[01:44:46] was too

[01:44:46] long

[01:44:47] and drawn

[01:44:47] out

[01:44:48] and even

[01:44:48] a little

[01:44:49] underwhelming

[01:44:50] for me

[01:44:50] in the end

[01:44:51] as for

[01:44:52] season

[01:44:52] three

[01:44:53] I'm

[01:44:53] mainly

[01:44:53] looking

[01:44:54] forward

[01:44:54] to the

[01:44:54] divide

[01:44:55] between

[01:44:55] the

[01:44:55] elves

[01:44:56] and the

[01:44:56] dwarves

[01:44:57] and to

[01:44:57] see

[01:44:57] how it

[01:44:58] builds

[01:44:58] from here

[01:44:59] thanks so

[01:45:00] much

[01:45:01] Mark

[01:45:01] you had

[01:45:02] some really

[01:45:02] good

[01:45:03] highlights

[01:45:03] that you've

[01:45:04] picked out

[01:45:04] there

[01:45:05] and

[01:45:07] certainly

[01:45:08] echoing

[01:45:09] a lot

[01:45:09] of what

[01:45:10] we've been

[01:45:10] discussing

[01:45:11] around

[01:45:12] season

[01:45:12] two

[01:45:13] as well

[01:45:13] absolutely

[01:45:14] Tolkien

[01:45:14] Jesus

[01:45:15] I like

[01:45:16] that

[01:45:17] that always

[01:45:18] cracks me up

[01:45:19] when we get

[01:45:19] feedback from

[01:45:20] Mark

[01:45:21] it's pretty

[01:45:22] hilarious

[01:45:22] it's more

[01:45:23] like

[01:45:23] anti-Christ

[01:45:24] than

[01:45:24] Christ

[01:45:25] but

[01:45:25] true

[01:45:28] although

[01:45:29] we didn't

[01:45:29] mention it

[01:45:30] there

[01:45:30] but I

[01:45:30] did love

[01:45:31] seeing him

[01:45:32] use

[01:45:32] Morgoth's

[01:45:33] helm

[01:45:33] in the

[01:45:34] battle

[01:45:34] with

[01:45:35] Galadriel

[01:45:35] that was

[01:45:35] fantastic

[01:45:36] wasn't it

[01:45:37] oh that

[01:45:37] was so

[01:45:37] cool

[01:45:39] coming up

[01:45:40] in part

[01:45:41] two

[01:45:41] on TV

[01:45:41] podcast

[01:45:42] industries

[01:45:43] okay

[01:45:44] we'll talk

[01:45:44] about that

[01:45:45] later

[01:45:45] we also

[01:45:46] heard

[01:45:47] from

[01:45:47] Madhavi

[01:45:48] and I

[01:45:49] want to

[01:45:49] thank you

[01:45:50] for sending

[01:45:50] us how

[01:45:51] to pronounce

[01:45:51] your name

[01:45:52] from Australia

[01:45:53] who says

[01:45:55] ooh a

[01:45:56] crossover of

[01:45:56] two podcasts

[01:45:57] I already

[01:45:58] listened to

[01:45:58] I love it

[01:45:59] when that

[01:45:59] happens

[01:45:59] I do too

[01:46:00] which is

[01:46:01] why we

[01:46:02] proposed

[01:46:03] to do

[01:46:04] this

[01:46:04] crossover

[01:46:06] my favorite

[01:46:07] character

[01:46:07] is young

[01:46:08] Elrond

[01:46:08] he is

[01:46:09] sweet

[01:46:09] and adorable

[01:46:10] yet still

[01:46:11] a bad

[01:46:11] arse

[01:46:11] in his

[01:46:12] own way

[01:46:13] I really

[01:46:14] admire

[01:46:14] his capacity

[01:46:15] to deeply

[01:46:15] care for

[01:46:16] and respect

[01:46:17] others

[01:46:17] including

[01:46:18] non-elves

[01:46:19] the power

[01:46:19] of his

[01:46:20] friendship

[01:46:20] and loyalty

[01:46:21] and his

[01:46:21] strong sense

[01:46:22] of morals

[01:46:23] I love

[01:46:24] Arondir as

[01:46:25] our top

[01:46:25] combat

[01:46:26] elf

[01:46:26] I like

[01:46:26] that

[01:46:27] combat

[01:46:27] elf

[01:46:27] even if

[01:46:29] he was

[01:46:29] a bit

[01:46:30] broody

[01:46:30] this season

[01:46:31] he isn't

[01:46:32] just fine

[01:46:33] and graceful

[01:46:33] and pretty

[01:46:34] like some

[01:46:34] elves

[01:46:35] he really

[01:46:36] embodies

[01:46:36] elven strength

[01:46:37] power

[01:46:38] and resilience

[01:46:39] too

[01:46:39] I was really

[01:46:40] sad at the

[01:46:41] loss of

[01:46:41] Bronwyn

[01:46:41] she was

[01:46:42] an incredible

[01:46:42] character

[01:46:44] I hated

[01:46:45] watching the

[01:46:46] Numenor

[01:46:46] storyline

[01:46:47] it was like

[01:46:48] watching a

[01:46:48] catastrophic

[01:46:49] car accident

[01:46:50] in excruciatingly

[01:46:51] detailed

[01:46:52] slow motion

[01:46:52] it made me

[01:46:54] so angry

[01:46:54] every time

[01:46:55] Farazan

[01:46:56] Kemen

[01:46:56] and

[01:46:57] Arian

[01:46:57] were on

[01:46:58] screen

[01:46:59] on the

[01:46:59] other hand

[01:47:00] our

[01:47:00] hobbit

[01:47:00] storyline

[01:47:01] was a

[01:47:01] breath

[01:47:01] of fresh

[01:47:02] air

[01:47:02] and made

[01:47:02] me love

[01:47:03] them more

[01:47:03] with every

[01:47:03] episode

[01:47:04] nori is

[01:47:05] the kind

[01:47:05] of person

[01:47:06] every society

[01:47:07] needs

[01:47:07] someone who

[01:47:08] is different

[01:47:09] sees things

[01:47:09] differently

[01:47:10] and has

[01:47:10] the courage

[01:47:11] to do

[01:47:11] things

[01:47:11] differently

[01:47:12] people like

[01:47:13] her are

[01:47:13] change makers

[01:47:14] the ones

[01:47:15] who speak

[01:47:15] up and

[01:47:15] take action

[01:47:17] I'm a

[01:47:18] rings of

[01:47:18] power viewer

[01:47:19] who hasn't

[01:47:19] read the

[01:47:20] books and

[01:47:20] saw the

[01:47:20] movies 15

[01:47:21] years ago

[01:47:22] so I

[01:47:22] barely remember

[01:47:23] a thing

[01:47:23] every time

[01:47:24] Anwen would

[01:47:25] say

[01:47:25] as we

[01:47:26] know

[01:47:26] followed by

[01:47:27] a lord of

[01:47:28] the rings

[01:47:28] fact I

[01:47:29] would laugh

[01:47:29] to myself

[01:47:29] and think

[01:47:30] oh I

[01:47:30] didn't know

[01:47:31] that

[01:47:32] you're not

[01:47:33] alone

[01:47:34] Madabi

[01:47:35] there were

[01:47:36] definitely

[01:47:36] times when

[01:47:37] Anwen brought

[01:47:38] up things

[01:47:38] that I

[01:47:38] was like

[01:47:38] did we

[01:47:39] know

[01:47:39] that

[01:47:39] okay

[01:47:41] I really

[01:47:42] appreciated

[01:47:43] all the

[01:47:43] backstory and

[01:47:44] lore from

[01:47:44] Anwen for

[01:47:45] the past

[01:47:45] two seasons

[01:47:46] it made

[01:47:46] the story

[01:47:47] and the

[01:47:47] characters

[01:47:47] make so

[01:47:48] much more

[01:47:48] sense to

[01:47:49] me

[01:47:49] and it

[01:47:49] really

[01:47:50] helped me

[01:47:50] with the

[01:47:50] world building

[01:47:52] because on

[01:47:52] its own

[01:47:53] I was actually

[01:47:54] a bit

[01:47:54] disappointed

[01:47:54] with the

[01:47:55] world building

[01:47:55] to be honest

[01:47:56] people going

[01:47:57] in with no

[01:47:57] knowledge

[01:47:58] deserve to

[01:47:58] have it

[01:47:59] still make

[01:47:59] sense

[01:48:02] something I

[01:48:03] wanted more

[01:48:03] details on

[01:48:04] which relates

[01:48:05] to world

[01:48:05] building too

[01:48:06] is the

[01:48:06] crafting of

[01:48:06] the rings

[01:48:07] I want to

[01:48:07] understand more

[01:48:08] about how

[01:48:09] they were

[01:48:09] made and

[01:48:09] how they

[01:48:10] work

[01:48:10] they vaguely

[01:48:11] implied the

[01:48:12] essence of

[01:48:12] the people

[01:48:13] crafting them

[01:48:13] influences

[01:48:14] the end

[01:48:14] product

[01:48:15] and that

[01:48:16] the

[01:48:16] mythril

[01:48:16] does

[01:48:16] something

[01:48:17] but how

[01:48:17] and why

[01:48:18] where's

[01:48:19] the world

[01:48:19] building

[01:48:19] for how

[01:48:19] much magic

[01:48:20] works

[01:48:20] in this

[01:48:21] world

[01:48:21] and how

[01:48:22] magical

[01:48:23] craft

[01:48:23] smithing

[01:48:23] works

[01:48:24] how were

[01:48:25] the

[01:48:25] three

[01:48:25] elven

[01:48:25] rings

[01:48:25] made

[01:48:26] differently

[01:48:26] so they

[01:48:26] have

[01:48:27] slightly

[01:48:27] different

[01:48:27] properties

[01:48:28] how were

[01:48:28] the dwarven

[01:48:29] rings

[01:48:29] made

[01:48:29] differently

[01:48:30] I was

[01:48:31] so surprised

[01:48:31] they didn't

[01:48:32] put the

[01:48:32] effort into

[01:48:32] working out

[01:48:33] these crucial

[01:48:33] details

[01:48:34] I had been

[01:48:35] looking forward

[01:48:35] to being

[01:48:35] shown how

[01:48:36] much of a

[01:48:36] genius

[01:48:37] colour

[01:48:37] brimble is

[01:48:38] not just

[01:48:38] told

[01:48:38] regardless

[01:48:39] he went

[01:48:40] out like

[01:48:40] a badass

[01:48:40] and I

[01:48:41] was really

[01:48:41] proud of

[01:48:41] him at

[01:48:42] the end

[01:48:43] thanks

[01:48:43] Maravi so

[01:48:44] much for

[01:48:45] your kind

[01:48:45] words about

[01:48:46] the podcast

[01:48:47] I really

[01:48:47] appreciate

[01:48:47] it and

[01:48:48] I love

[01:48:49] that we all

[01:48:50] have different

[01:48:50] opinions about

[01:48:51] the different

[01:48:52] civilizations

[01:48:52] and that

[01:48:53] there's

[01:48:53] something for

[01:48:54] everyone

[01:48:54] everyone has

[01:48:55] different

[01:48:55] favorites

[01:48:56] just regarding

[01:48:57] the rings

[01:48:58] I definitely

[01:48:59] see what

[01:48:59] you're saying

[01:49:00] it's not

[01:49:01] that they've

[01:49:01] missed out

[01:49:02] anything from

[01:49:02] the books

[01:49:03] and from

[01:49:03] the lore

[01:49:03] the lore

[01:49:04] is actually

[01:49:04] pretty vague

[01:49:05] so you have

[01:49:06] the crafting

[01:49:06] of the rings

[01:49:07] it's basically

[01:49:08] mentioned

[01:49:09] they don't

[01:49:09] say how

[01:49:10] they do it

[01:49:10] or what

[01:49:11] makes them

[01:49:11] special

[01:49:11] or anything

[01:49:12] the only

[01:49:13] the only thing

[01:49:13] that you can

[01:49:14] really say

[01:49:14] is that

[01:49:15] Sauron

[01:49:16] didn't have

[01:49:16] any hand

[01:49:17] in touching

[01:49:17] the three

[01:49:17] elven rings

[01:49:18] therefore they

[01:49:18] were pure

[01:49:19] and they

[01:49:19] had their

[01:49:19] own qualities

[01:49:20] in them

[01:49:20] from the

[01:49:21] elven

[01:49:23] materials

[01:49:23] that went

[01:49:24] into them

[01:49:24] and the

[01:49:25] people that

[01:49:25] made them

[01:49:26] the rings

[01:49:27] of men

[01:49:28] and the rings

[01:49:28] of dwarves

[01:49:29] were made

[01:49:29] by Sauron's

[01:49:30] hand

[01:49:30] and so therefore

[01:49:31] he passed

[01:49:31] his evil

[01:49:32] into them

[01:49:33] in terms

[01:49:34] of the actual

[01:49:34] physical crafting

[01:49:35] and what

[01:49:36] made them

[01:49:36] that way

[01:49:37] there's no

[01:49:37] detail

[01:49:37] so they

[01:49:38] haven't

[01:49:39] actually got

[01:49:39] anything

[01:49:39] really to

[01:49:40] work with

[01:49:40] and I

[01:49:41] mean potentially

[01:49:42] it could have

[01:49:42] been clunky

[01:49:42] if they tried

[01:49:43] to add

[01:49:44] a detail

[01:49:44] there

[01:49:45] I think

[01:49:45] they did

[01:49:46] quite well

[01:49:46] with

[01:49:47] they used

[01:49:48] quite a lot

[01:49:48] of kind

[01:49:49] of stylistic

[01:49:51] visuals

[01:49:52] around that

[01:49:52] you know

[01:49:53] with the

[01:49:53] swirling

[01:49:53] of the

[01:49:54] molten

[01:49:54] metals

[01:49:55] that go

[01:49:55] into it

[01:49:56] and the

[01:49:56] sort of

[01:49:56] background

[01:49:57] music

[01:49:57] and the

[01:49:57] kind

[01:49:57] of

[01:49:58] flitting

[01:49:58] between

[01:49:59] one

[01:49:59] character

[01:50:00] and the

[01:50:00] next

[01:50:00] as you

[01:50:00] show

[01:50:01] them

[01:50:01] being

[01:50:01] crafted

[01:50:01] I

[01:50:02] think

[01:50:02] that

[01:50:02] was

[01:50:02] a

[01:50:03] kind

[01:50:03] of

[01:50:03] a

[01:50:03] not

[01:50:03] a

[01:50:03] glossing

[01:50:04] over

[01:50:04] but a

[01:50:04] kind

[01:50:05] of a

[01:50:05] generalised

[01:50:06] way

[01:50:06] of

[01:50:06] showing

[01:50:06] how

[01:50:06] these

[01:50:07] were

[01:50:07] made

[01:50:07] and how

[01:50:08] I guess

[01:50:09] the main

[01:50:09] point

[01:50:10] that you

[01:50:10] could see

[01:50:10] there was

[01:50:11] one point

[01:50:12] where

[01:50:13] Sauron

[01:50:13] or Anatar

[01:50:15] passed

[01:50:15] the

[01:50:15] methril

[01:50:16] from one

[01:50:16] hand

[01:50:16] into the

[01:50:17] other

[01:50:17] and held

[01:50:17] it for

[01:50:18] as long

[01:50:18] as he

[01:50:18] could

[01:50:18] before

[01:50:18] he put

[01:50:19] it in

[01:50:19] when he

[01:50:20] was

[01:50:20] constructing

[01:50:21] the

[01:50:21] dwarven

[01:50:22] rings

[01:50:22] and so

[01:50:22] I think

[01:50:23] that's

[01:50:23] all that

[01:50:23] we could

[01:50:23] really

[01:50:24] see

[01:50:24] there

[01:50:25] but

[01:50:26] yeah

[01:50:26] I'm

[01:50:26] so

[01:50:27] glad

[01:50:27] that

[01:50:27] you're

[01:50:27] enjoying

[01:50:27] it

[01:50:28] and

[01:50:28] that

[01:50:28] we're

[01:50:29] helping

[01:50:29] with

[01:50:30] some

[01:50:30] of

[01:50:30] the

[01:50:30] background

[01:50:31] for

[01:50:31] you

[01:50:31] we

[01:50:32] never

[01:50:32] know

[01:50:32] how

[01:50:33] much

[01:50:33] any

[01:50:33] of

[01:50:33] our

[01:50:33] listeners

[01:50:34] know

[01:50:34] beforehand

[01:50:35] and so

[01:50:35] we're

[01:50:36] really

[01:50:36] thrilled

[01:50:36] to be

[01:50:37] able

[01:50:37] to help

[01:50:37] you

[01:50:37] enhance

[01:50:38] your

[01:50:38] enjoyment

[01:50:38] of

[01:50:38] the

[01:50:38] show

[01:50:39] so

[01:50:39] thank

[01:50:39] you

[01:50:39] and I

[01:50:39] hope

[01:50:40] that

[01:50:40] you

[01:50:54] three

[01:50:54] or

[01:50:54] four

[01:50:54] times

[01:50:55] every

[01:50:55] single

[01:50:55] podcast

[01:50:57] obviously

[01:50:58] as you

[01:50:58] know

[01:50:59] we've

[01:51:00] used

[01:51:01] other

[01:51:01] antonyms

[01:51:02] and

[01:51:02] synonyms

[01:51:02] for it

[01:51:02] as well

[01:51:03] so

[01:51:04] yeah

[01:51:04] it's

[01:51:05] tricky

[01:51:05] we can't

[01:51:06] assume

[01:51:06] we can't

[01:51:06] assume

[01:51:07] what

[01:51:07] people

[01:51:07] know

[01:51:07] and

[01:51:08] also

[01:51:08] as I

[01:51:09] say

[01:51:10] thank

[01:51:11] you

[01:51:11] for

[01:51:11] your

[01:51:11] kind

[01:51:11] words

[01:51:12] about

[01:51:12] the

[01:51:13] law

[01:51:13] knowledge

[01:51:13] and

[01:51:13] stuff

[01:51:14] I

[01:51:14] do

[01:51:15] have

[01:51:15] a

[01:51:15] bit

[01:51:15] of

[01:51:15] background

[01:51:15] but

[01:51:16] I

[01:51:16] tell

[01:51:16] you

[01:51:16] what

[01:51:16] Google

[01:51:17] and

[01:51:17] Tolkien

[01:51:18] gateway

[01:51:18] is

[01:51:18] your

[01:51:19] friend

[01:51:19] if

[01:51:19] you

[01:51:19] want

[01:51:20] to

[01:51:20] go

[01:51:25] to

[01:51:25] Lord

[01:51:25] of the

[01:51:25] Rings

[01:51:26] books

[01:51:26] with

[01:51:27] lots

[01:51:27] of

[01:51:28] the

[01:51:30] law

[01:51:40] too

[01:51:40] there's

[01:51:41] a lot

[01:51:41] of

[01:51:42] resources

[01:51:42] on

[01:51:42] YouTube

[01:51:43] as

[01:51:43] well

[01:51:43] there's

[01:51:44] a

[01:51:44] number

[01:51:44] of

[01:51:45] very

[01:51:45] dedicated

[01:51:46] Tolkien

[01:51:47] nerds

[01:51:48] who

[01:51:48] have

[01:51:49] put

[01:51:49] together

[01:51:49] these

[01:51:50] collections

[01:51:51] of

[01:51:52] short

[01:51:52] videos

[01:51:52] where

[01:51:53] it's

[01:51:53] like

[01:51:53] 10

[01:51:54] minutes

[01:51:54] on

[01:51:54] the

[01:51:55] history

[01:51:55] of

[01:51:55] the

[01:51:55] dwarves

[01:51:56] 10

[01:51:56] minutes

[01:51:56] about

[01:51:57] the

[01:51:57] wizards

[01:51:57] and

[01:51:59] they're

[01:51:59] entertaining

[01:52:00] and

[01:52:00] they're

[01:52:00] well

[01:52:00] made

[01:52:01] so

[01:52:02] you

[01:52:02] can

[01:52:03] really

[01:52:03] go down

[01:52:03] a

[01:52:03] rabbit hole

[01:52:04] and

[01:52:04] then

[01:52:04] you

[01:52:05] think

[01:52:05] you're

[01:52:05] watching

[01:52:05] a

[01:52:06] couple

[01:52:06] of

[01:52:06] 10

[01:52:06] minute

[01:52:06] videos

[01:52:07] and

[01:52:07] the

[01:52:07] next

[01:52:07] thing

[01:52:08] you know

[01:52:08] it's

[01:52:08] been

[01:52:08] three

[01:52:08] hours

[01:52:09] like

[01:52:09] that

[01:52:09] will

[01:52:10] oh

[01:52:10] yeah

[01:52:10] there's

[01:52:10] so much

[01:52:11] yeah

[01:52:11] nerd

[01:52:12] of

[01:52:12] the

[01:52:12] rings

[01:52:12] is

[01:52:12] really

[01:52:12] good

[01:52:13] and

[01:52:13] rings

[01:52:13] and

[01:52:13] you

[01:52:15] could

[01:52:17] spend

[01:52:17] weeks

[01:52:18] looking

[01:52:18] all

[01:52:18] that

[01:52:19] stuff

[01:52:19] it's

[01:52:19] really

[01:52:19] cool

[01:52:19] you gotta

[01:52:20] head down

[01:52:21] a

[01:52:21] rabbit hole

[01:52:21] every once

[01:52:21] in a

[01:52:22] while

[01:52:22] right

[01:52:22] that's

[01:52:23] true

[01:52:23] i love

[01:52:24] that

[01:52:25] all right

[01:52:26] well i guess

[01:52:27] that's our show

[01:52:29] thanks for

[01:52:29] listening everyone

[01:52:30] and thank you

[01:52:31] so much

[01:52:31] derek and john

[01:52:32] for joining us

[01:52:33] and being here

[01:52:33] with us today

[01:52:34] this has been

[01:52:34] so much fun

[01:52:35] oh it's been

[01:52:36] fantastic

[01:52:37] hasn't it

[01:52:37] been really

[01:52:38] really good

[01:52:38] fun

[01:52:38] and we got

[01:52:39] more to do

[01:52:39] as well

[01:52:40] which is great

[01:52:40] so we don't

[01:52:40] have to say

[01:52:41] goodbye

[01:52:41] forever or

[01:52:42] anything

[01:52:42] we'll never

[01:52:43] be podcasting

[01:52:43] at the end

[01:52:44] which is

[01:52:44] great

[01:52:46] it's just

[01:52:47] a goodbye

[01:52:47] for now

[01:52:48] yeah

[01:52:49] great

[01:52:50] having a

[01:52:50] chat

[01:52:51] with

[01:52:52] with penny

[01:52:53] and with

[01:52:54] anwin

[01:52:55] here on

[01:52:55] the podcast

[01:52:56] so yeah

[01:52:57] really

[01:52:58] enjoyed it

[01:52:58] thank you so

[01:53:00] much and

[01:53:00] you can all

[01:53:01] catch the

[01:53:01] second part

[01:53:02] of this

[01:53:02] discussion

[01:53:03] on season

[01:53:03] two of

[01:53:04] the rings

[01:53:04] of power

[01:53:04] over on

[01:53:05] derek and

[01:53:05] john's podcast

[01:53:06] derek where

[01:53:07] can people

[01:53:07] find you

[01:53:08] absolutely

[01:53:09] yes you

[01:53:09] can find

[01:53:09] us over

[01:53:10] on tv

[01:53:10] podcast

[01:53:11] industry

[01:53:11] search

[01:53:12] any

[01:53:13] villainous

[01:53:14] or heroic

[01:53:14] podcast

[01:53:15] catcher of

[01:53:15] your choice

[01:53:16] i guess

[01:53:16] or pop

[01:53:17] on over

[01:53:17] the website

[01:53:17] at tv

[01:53:18] podcast

[01:53:18] industries

[01:53:19] dot com

[01:53:19] and you

[01:53:19] can find

[01:53:20] us over

[01:53:20] there

[01:53:20] at

[01:53:21] second

[01:53:21] part

[01:53:21] will

[01:53:21] be

[01:53:21] out

[01:53:21] very soon

[01:53:22] wonderful

[01:53:23] thank you

[01:53:23] and coming

[01:53:24] up next

[01:53:25] on this

[01:53:25] show

[01:53:25] over the

[01:53:26] next few

[01:53:26] months

[01:53:26] we will

[01:53:27] be covering

[01:53:28] the war

[01:53:28] of the

[01:53:28] rohiram

[01:53:29] and sam

[01:53:30] and i will

[01:53:30] be covering

[01:53:31] the hobbit

[01:53:31] movies

[01:53:32] possibly the

[01:53:33] extended

[01:53:33] versions

[01:53:34] and we

[01:53:35] will also

[01:53:35] have some

[01:53:35] other exciting

[01:53:36] treats for

[01:53:36] you our

[01:53:37] precious

[01:53:38] listeners

[01:53:38] come join

[01:53:43] us