508: "Endure and Survive" (The Last of Us S1E5)

[00:00:00] Hmm? Ah! Ah! Let's get down! Joel! Eyes on me. Eyes on me. You don't have to worry about what to say. We don't want to hurt you. We want to help you. Okay.

[00:00:23] Okay, um, I don't know what the next step is with something like this, but if I lower my gun, we didn't hurt you, so you don't hurt us. Right? That's right. That's a weird fucking tone, man! That's just the way he sounds. He has an asshole voice. Joel, tell him he's okay. Everything is great. Dude! Fuck!

[00:01:18] Hey Zed Heads, welcome to the podcast. I'm Jason. And I'm Lucy. And I'm Ben. And this is The Cast of Us, episode 508. On this episode, we're covering The Last of Us, season one, episode five, Endure and Survive. Which is what the show is asking us to do. We will kill your favorite characters every week. And you're just gonna endure it. You're gonna survive, and you're gonna love it.

[00:01:42] And for anyone who's watching this on YouTube, I'm currently dressed like a Jawa because it's freezing in my house, so we're dressing again with a hood on. Yeah, we're purple. I don't usually dress like this, but we are. We don't mention it enough, but we're posting these on YouTube every week. The main episodes, not the listener feedback episodes, but we also do a live instant reaction right after the show with different Zed Heads.

[00:02:03] It's Alex is hosting those, and those are really fun. They're just usually like 20, 25 minutes. So just search out Podcastica on YouTube if you're interested in either of those things. Yeah. Yeah, I got to do one a couple weeks ago. They're a lot of fun. Yeah. I think Rima did this week's. Yeah, she did with Rinaldi and Alex. I want to do another one too. Oh, Rinaldi, amazing. So this week it's Last of Us, as Lucy said, Season 1, Episode 5, Endure and Survive. What did you think of this one, Lucy?

[00:02:34] I'm going to be honest, I didn't love it. It's probably my least favorite of the ones so far, but there were bits I really liked about it. And I'm trying to get my head around why there were maybe bits I didn't like so much. So I'm looking forward to talking about it. Talk it out. Yeah. Ben, what about you? I actually really enjoyed it. It's not my favorite episode of the series so far. I mean, that Episode 3 is going to hang on to that rain for as long as I can see that it's going to, but it's up there on my list.

[00:03:04] It's a man. This episode makes the series four out of five for episodes that made me sob this season. So, I mean, with last episode being the one that didn't, but it was only setting me up for the heartbreak that I felt this one. Yeah. It was almost like one long episode, really, last week and this week. Yeah.

[00:03:28] Yeah. No, I liked it a lot. The action was so incredible. I'm all about the zombies slash infected. That was amazing. I thought Henry and Sam were great characters, very well acted. So I really, really enjoyed watching both of those actors.

[00:04:09] Mm-hmm. My favorite. It's like saying that very good 28 day aged steak wasn't cooked quite as well as the one I had last week. Like, you know, I still enjoyed it. They're all good. There were some bits. Yeah, they're all good. There were just some bits where I was like, eh. Yeah, yeah. I'm excited to hear about it. Why don't you go first?

[00:04:33] So I'll start negative. I found the pacing of this episode a little bit off and I know what they're trying to do in the sense of they were bringing us up to the point that we left at last week.

[00:04:49] But that annoyed me a little bit. I felt like we didn't need that flashback or we could have had it the week before. Now then I thought that logically through in my head and was like, if we'd had it the week before, it would have felt weird because coming straight off the Bill and Frank episode, it would have been too much time without Joel and Ellie.

[00:05:06] But I just felt it could have maybe been edited down a little bit like it was nice to fill in the blanks, especially with a week's gap in between. But it pulled me out of the pacing a little bit like we ended on a real kind of moment of I don't want to say cliffhanger because I don't know if that's the right use of that term, but we ended on a moment last week. I think it is. Yeah, that's a cliffhanger, right? I was keen to see what happened next.

[00:05:32] I did. Yeah, I could I I think we did get some stuff from the backstory that was interesting. I thought the scenes of seeing Kansas City being overthrown were gruesome in the best way. Like I really enjoyed seeing the violence of that overthrow and seeing that it was actually quite a horrific act brutal that had taken place. But those five to ten minutes we spent catching up, I was itching to know what was going to happen next.

[00:05:58] And that kind of put me on edge a little bit for the rest of the episode because I was like, right, I just want to catch up to where we were. I guess the feeling I got at the end of this episode was sort of like. Maybe my expectations for the show are a little wrong in some ways, because I don't there's a way this story could go, which is like the X-Files Monster of the Week style episodes where every week we see a different slice of life in the apocalypse.

[00:06:23] And that's great. And I would like that. But I felt like we were getting to some forward movement with the story. And this felt at the end a bit like, oh, OK, that was a diversion from the main journey and it was horrible and harrowing. But what did we learn that we hadn't learned before? And I'm kind of like, I really want to see where this goes next week now. Like, I don't know, I thought we'd be at a further point at the end of this episode. However, what we did see was very nuanced, very well acted.

[00:06:52] Although I agree with you, Jason, there were two instances that I thought were speechifying where I was like, nah, this could have been better done, to be honest. And one of them was Kathleen. Yeah, if it was the same as me, it was when Kathleen's talking about her brother and how she he wouldn't have. She's not like him. He was kind and she's not. And he wouldn't have wanted her to he would want her to forgive.

[00:07:18] But forget that, you know, all of that, which I'll get more into later. But then the second one, kind of, but not as bad, was when Henry was telling Joel about what happened with Sam, you know. Am I the bad guy or am I a guy who did a bad guy thing? And I'm like, oh, we can kind of. And don't get me wrong, the actor was amazing. I thought Henry and Sam were both wonderful. And I was so heartbroken to see them go. But I guess there's another thing. Although Peter and I disagreed about this.

[00:07:47] So I was like, well, it's quite obvious no one's sticking around because it's about Joel and Ellie, right? And Peter's like, oh, I didn't assume that. I kind of thought there would be room for someone like, I don't know, Kathleen to stay around as an antagonist or for Henry to join them. And I was like, oh, no, maybe I'm being too limited about this. I'm like, well, it's always going to be Joel and Ellie. Well, it's starting to feel formulaic now. Yeah, a little bit. Meet new characters, you fall for them or not, and then they die. And then they die. But that, you know, that said, that sounds like a really kind of me being really harsh on it.

[00:08:16] But yeah, there was just a little bit with the pacing that I thought was a bit. But and the kind of this will be my money point. The rest will all be nice. This will be my money point because I'm like, I'm just starting off on a bummer. I'm sitting here in my hood looking like some kind of ghost of Christmas future. Like, well, I didn't like this at all, which is not what I'm saying. The tunnels were a bit of a let. I was really set for some tunnel action. And they were like the tunnels that could be infected there. It was a bit of a bait and switch. Yeah, then it was like, we're out of the tunnels now. We're in the car park. And I'm like, oh, oh, OK.

[00:08:46] I felt like that, too. But I think it was it was purposeful to get us like anticipating. And then, oh, what? What? They made it through. Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, my God. Yeah. I mean, the image of the infected coming up out of the sinkhole was worth it. Like that was. Yeah. I really, really like that. Yeah. So you're talking about, you know, how they went back in time and filled in the gaps. And so that makes it sound like you knew that's what was happening because I didn't. At first, I thought I didn't.

[00:09:16] I wasn't clear where we were in the timeline when we were seeing all this revolution stuff. It took me a bit to kind of figure it out. In fact, I don't think I really got it until it said 10 days later. And then you see Sam and Henry looking out the window and see Joel. And I'm like, oh, OK, that was 10 days before. So but you're saying you knew as you were watching it that it was earlier. I thought it had to be because I was like, well, we know that we came in after the revolution. Yeah. And if this isn't the revolution, I'd hate to say what a Friday night looks like in Kansas City.

[00:09:46] So you didn't pick up on the fact that it was that it was a prequel to everything that had happened when they were interacting with the doctor who was shot in the last episode. I mean, I did. I guess you're right. Both of you have a very good point there. I just didn't I wasn't clear, I guess, on how far before. But it doesn't really matter how far before Lucy's point still stands that it's before and you're filling in the gap. So, yeah, I was surprised how soon before it was. I understood that it was before.

[00:10:14] But when it said I was like, oh, this is good. I thought the revolution had happened maybe a year ago. Like I didn't realize it had been that soon. Yeah, I was the same way. Like seeing how the how the resistance and Kathleen's people were all they seemed pretty settled in their positions. I was the same way. I thought this was something that had probably happened, if not months to a year or two previously before Joe and Ellie had arrived in Kansas City. I didn't find out that it was only 11 days. I thought it felt really fresh.

[00:10:42] Like we were saying, I think it was Eric was saying, you know, maybe a little bit of a thing that takes you out of it is that the hero happens to come to town right as something is going on. Yeah. You know, and it felt like with Kathleen there with the doctor at gunpoint trying to suss out the collaborators. That seems like something that would happen pretty quickly after, you know. OK, that's a good point. Yeah.

[00:11:09] It feels like all three of us had different pieces of the jigsaw puzzle. I know, I know. We got the right picture. I feel dumb for even asking, did you know it was earlier? Because you totally have like the doctor was alive. It looked like the day. Yeah. I genuinely think you could re-edit it and have it just start with that revolution and tell it the other way around. Like see Henry and Sam. But then I think you're with the problem. You're away from Joel and Ellie for too long. Yeah. And you're like, oh, we've already had that with Bill and Frank. Like, do we need to get back to the main thing?

[00:11:37] I liked it because last episode, Joel and Ellie come into this situation. And, you know, you guys kind of pushed the point that it was them not really knowing exactly what happened. Well, it was more Ream and Eric who I was on with. But anyway, because it was in midst of the chaos. Right. But then this week, it's really all about Henry and Sam. So we're getting the story from their point of view.

[00:12:05] And I felt like, you know, kind of a Pulp Fiction kind of thing where you see it from a different perspective. I'm not saying you're wrong for not liking it, but I thought it worked. I liked it. I liked it. I liked seeing their perspective of it. Like when you converge and you see the laundromat from another side, like that was fun. And it felt almost, there's something about that that felt almost gamic of like looking out a window and sort of seeing something else happening, which I really enjoyed. But I like that word gamic. I've never heard that before. I hope you use it a lot. I think I've just made it up. Hi, everyone. Urban dictionary there, please.

[00:12:35] Gamic. That's my word. It can be used in many different contexts. Yeah, I just, I think it could have been maybe a shorter montage. Maybe would be my argument. It's like there were, it's a story that luxuriates in storytelling, which is great. But I would have maybe had it be a little shorter. That would be it. But I mean, like I say, it's like, I would just have rather had less butter on my mashed potatoes, but like they were fine as they were. So thank you, you know. So that was my point. I've never heard that listed as less butter on my mashed potatoes.

[00:13:03] But I personally like more butter on my mashed potatoes, but okay. You want some mashed potatoes with your butter. All right. Then what's your first point? Well, I kind of want to jump on top of that too and almost come to the defense of that a little bit. Because one of the things, I actually enjoyed the fact that we got a little bit of Sam and Henry before catching up with Joel. Because to me, that's almost kind of like the Rosencrantz and Guildenstern of The Last of Us is seeing the story being told from the perspective of two different characters.

[00:13:32] And, you know, seeing that, you know, playing catch up. It's almost like the previously on The Last of Us, but seeing it from a different perspective. I kind of liked because it gave us a little bit more of a backstory and a connection to Sam and Henry. So by the time they do meet up, we do feel a little bit more connected to these characters other than just these two people that are pointing guns at Joel and Ellie. Yeah. I mean, this show is all about getting us really to care about people before they die. So we'll cry. Go on. Yeah. No, you're absolutely right.

[00:14:01] But I mean, so using that 10 to 15 minutes of the episode to give us that more backstory of Sam and Henry, I think eliminated the opportunity that they would have had to make in creating more exposition during Sam and Henry and Joel and Ellie's interactions with each other. We would have had more talkative scenes. Yeah. It was showing versus telling. Because, yeah, because we would have had to explain their situation even more rather than having just seen it for the 10 to 15 minutes that we just did.

[00:14:31] So I actually appreciated the fact that they gave us that alternate timeline leading up to that moment again. And it was cool to see the doctor there and going, oh, that fucker did know where they were. He was a liar the whole time. Yeah. I mean, he never denied it. He just didn't answer. He just didn't answer the question. But it was very interesting to me, too, touching based on the whole revolution of the hunters taking over Fedra.

[00:14:59] It's very interesting to find out later on when Joel and Henry are talking, finding out how bad. And Joel, having already known that Kansas City, Fedra were known for being these ruthless people. And when you get this perspective of the hunters and what they're doing to Fedra, it's very clear that in this world, oftentimes violence begets violence.

[00:15:26] Oh, those images at the start with the body with the knives in and the guy getting hanged. And laughing as they're doing it. Yeah. I mean, the guy's hoisting the guy up and they're just giggling about it. I mean, just the scene of them driving down the street, dragging the body with all the knives inside one, like at least 20 to 30 knives inside this body.

[00:15:49] Like if this is if these people are tame compared to it's it begs the question that either one, these guys are just as bad as Fedra or if they're not. How bad was Fedra? Yeah. Yeah. You know, that this is not even living up to how they were. We do learn something about Fedra that I think it's Joel that says, I've heard the Kansas City Fedra was bad.

[00:16:19] And we know in Boston, Fedra is already militaristic and fascist and they hang people for leaving without authorization. They hang people for coming in without authorization. And also people just seem to be scraping by. But we don't really know all that much more. We also know that there's a group of rebels there, the Fireflies fighting against them. So there's got to be unrest. But we don't really know how bad it's gotten with them.

[00:16:42] But when he said the Fedra in Kansas City got particularly bad, Henry said, I mean, yeah, Henry said something about, yeah, it's been 15 years of rape and torture or something like that. Yeah. So it's, you know, it helps you have at least a little bit of sympathy for these resistance, this group of resistance. Does it though? Because I like seeing how violent they were in return. I didn't really feel any.

[00:17:10] I didn't feel any remorse for that. Yeah, I know. I mean, I'm just saying like you. I mean, you can under. Yeah, you can understand their position of wanting to overthrow. Yeah, well, let's say your wife was raped or your daughter by Fedra, you know, repeatedly, which is horrible to even have to voice out loud. But I'm just trying to understand how you could get to the point where you would laugh about hoisting someone up hanging. They're not mustache twirling villains.

[00:17:36] They're people who have felt deeply, deeply wronged, you know. There's an interesting contrast, I think, to Terminus in The Walking Dead.

[00:18:13] Yeah, I was thinking about that just now. A flash to the villains being brutalized by people who took over their colony. And it gives you this different sense. But I think there was something about the. So the termites are, I don't know, they're very methodical and violent and have a system. I mean, it's similar. Yeah, it's very similar. But there was something about the out and out anarchy of the overthrow that I think was really chilling. It is.

[00:18:42] But like another, I hope people don't mind if we talk parallels with The Walking Dead. I presume most people have seen it. But if not, you'll forget. I've never seen the show, so I don't know. Yeah. We're not familiar. Another similarity is they sort of dehumanize people that aren't in their group. And, you know, Gareth and them, we know what they do. I won't even say what they do because that would be a big spoiler, but it's bad. But they're very nonchalant about it.

[00:19:06] And here Kathleen has her people ambushing anybody that comes into town, trying to kill them and take their supplies. So it's kind of similar, you know. And it's happy to just be like, kill all those people and get rid of the bodies. It's cleaner. Yeah. Right. Next thing. Yeah. I mean, that's what I said earlier is like the violence begots violence. It's like these guys have, they literally, they've taken over the position of Fedra, but they have just, they're just replacing them. They're not changing anything.

[00:19:34] That's what Craig Mazin said in one of those post videos that sometimes in history, often the revolutionary force that takes over is worse than whoever they just ousted. So that's what they're drawing from. And can I go to my first point? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. So I'll go to the brutality of Kathleen and her group. And so, yeah, we start with this night. The resistance group defeated Fedra. They're going, at first it seems very triumphant.

[00:20:03] You hear freedom, freedom, freedom. And then, fuck you, Fedra. Fuck you, Fedra. So a little bit more of an edge. But you see the flares going off. It's reminiscent of like Fourth of July, you know, Independence Day. And spirits are high. You see them laughing. But then we cut to people being dragged, beaten with blunt weapons, choked, glass smashing against a guy's head. Laughter, screams of pain. One guy shot directly in the head. This guy hanged.

[00:20:33] And guy on the loudspeaker saying, Kansas City belongs to the people. A collaborator surrender now and you will receive a fair trial. Right? Right. You know how. Yeah, right. So right away, there's a focus on capturing and we later learn killing collaborators. And I just think about how often an organization takes on the personality traits of its leader. I used to work at Apple. And it was kind of like that with Steve Jobs. We all knew that he was a stickler for like elegant design.

[00:21:00] And that just really permeated every department, including mine, which we wrote the instruction manuals. You know, here with the resistance, it's all about Kathleen's desire for revenge against the people who got her brother killed. And we see that scene, you know, where Lucy and I said she was speechifying. What I did like about that is she's talking about, you know, my brother would have told me to forgive. And then you see that shift in her. But no, like, I, you know, what good would that do?

[00:21:26] And it just really gave that feeling that we all kind of know where we know the more like peaceful thing, calm thing to do. But we're like, no, man, I was wrong. You know, we've all had that feeling like, fuck that. And this is on a more deeper scale. But she was wrong because her brother was killed.

[00:21:46] And now she's fueled by that hatred and considers anyone who collaborated with Fedra as subhuman, no matter what their situation was, including Henry, who was trying to keep his eight-year-old brother alive. And so I think this whole group is like an extension of her like a cult. And as Perry, her right-hand man said, nothing happened with the resistance until her brother, who was the leader of the resistance, died and she was in charge.

[00:22:13] So that shows that even though they describe her brother, Michael, with just such reverence, even Henry did. I would follow him anywhere. He was forgiving. That the people know that it was Kathleen who got results. That hatred and desire for revenge fueled their successful revolution. So they feel beholden to her, I guess.

[00:22:38] And so I think, you know, there's kind of a point to that, that sometimes you got to get brutal. You got to get into your animal nature, especially in a situation of war like this. Like, I mean, I don't know. I can't really talk intelligently about this, but I can sort of understand like if he was trying to be peaceful and it wasn't getting anywhere and Fedra was still like torturing and raping people. And then she came in and got more brutal about it.

[00:23:07] It is war. But then afterwards, that perspective, that vibe doesn't serve them well anymore. They have to then become more switch gears and become more civilized. Melanie Linsky said in the behind the scenes video at the end, quote, Kathleen would say her absolute moral code is one of her strengths. I think it's one of her weaknesses. You need to have empathy for the positions that people are in.

[00:23:36] And I love when actors can differentiate themselves from their characters. A lot of them won't do that, but I was glad she did. So this reminds me of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission in South Africa, which was a court-like body established by the new South African government in 1995 to help heal the country and bring about reconciliation of its people by uncovering the truth about human rights violations that happened during the period of apartheid,

[00:24:05] which is where people of different races were segregated and discriminated against on the grounds of their race. And their commission's emphasis was on gathering evidence and uncovering information from both victims and perpetrators, but not on prosecuting individuals for past crimes.

[00:24:24] They were just investigating human rights and allowing victims opportunity to tell their story, granting amnesty, constructing an impartial historical record of the past, drafting a reparations policy. It was all about trying to figure out a way to peacefully move forward.

[00:24:44] There was justice in holding people accountable of human rights violations, but it wasn't about just nailing everybody like these guys are wanting to do that had anything to do with it. You know, it was a way to integrate and move forward peacefully. And it was hailed as a huge success, a model for building peace and justice. And, um, I just think that something like that was, uh, needed here.

[00:25:09] Of course, then it would be a really boring TV show and we needed Kathleen and her, she, she really became like a comic book villain at the end when she was saying that, you know, well, I like wanting Henry to come out from behind the car. And he's like, what about Sam? And she goes, Nope. The girl Ellie is with the man who killed Brian and Sam. Well, Sam's with you. So she's just going to kill these kids and that's it. That's pretty bad. Yeah. It's just, there's a point, isn't there?

[00:25:37] When you've usurped power, where you have the option to model how you want things to be going forward. And that's a really crucial point that if you go straight in with revenge in your heart, which is completely understandable, but just do what has always been done. Why change? Like, that's the thing. It's how you deal with that vacuum, isn't it? Yeah. And in the end, I mean, they don't want, these people don't want a violent culture.

[00:26:00] And in the end, you know, Kathleen was killed by this clicker child, which I think was a bit on the nose, but it's karma. It's very karmic. Right. And, and I think, and I thought, you know, well, my first thought was, yeah, get her. Like she's the worst. But also her people are probably better off without her, you know, at this point. Her people are probably gone at this point.

[00:26:25] I don't know how many, I mean, yeah, there were a lot of soldiers there. Yeah. I think that was all of them. Maybe you're right. Well, I mean, but here, and here's the note that I was going to make on Kathleen as well. Like it's, it's very interesting how we're seeing things from different perspectives with this particular episode is because upon my second viewing of this, I started to watch Kathleen a little bit closer in the episode. And I saw her very differently in this episode than I did in the last episode.

[00:26:51] And it seems almost a little differently than you guys are saying how you saw her too. It's because once she, I mean, we know her motivation for wanting to finally build this resistance that took over. Cause from what I can understand in the timeline, it's her, is her brother was killed and that's what led to all of this. And then finally taking over, because if it's only been 11 days, I can't see that having happened. Obviously Henry turned her brother over when Fedra was still in charge.

[00:27:18] So, but he was the leader of, there was a resistance and he was the leader of it. Yes. But then by killing the leader, they inflamed the rest of them to actually go for it. Exactly. But that scene with her talking to Perry, she's standing in her own bedroom. She's standing in a bedroom that, that, that she grew up in, which to me literally speaks out. You are living in the past. I mean, I, I, I completely understand her motivation and everything, but she's using this new power that she has.

[00:27:48] After taking over the revelation for this short-sighted one way of thinking of Henry is the prime objective. It, and she's using, yeah. It's all about her personalizing all of this. And, and she's like the King, you know, or the queen, whatever she says goes, she tells Perry burn the bodies. And, and so that's why I feel like it's very cultic. It's like, she's, it's all about what she wants. Yeah. I mean, and she's using all, she's using all of this power that she has to kind of achieve this one goal.

[00:28:17] But in the meantime, the kingdom is falling apart because they're running by their own. So all this violence and everything that's happening is literally because they have a leader, but who, who's not leading. In my opinion. Yeah. The way I see it. She doesn't care about their. I mean, just the fact that she's, she's sending what easily is 50 troops and all these vehicles to chase after four people. I mean, that's how short-sighted and two of them are children.

[00:28:47] Right. So, I mean, like two of them are children and one of them is, I mean, I don't know what Henry's age is, but I'm assuming early to mid twenties at the oldest. The actor's like around 28. Well, yeah, I was thinking about this. If his, if Sam's his brother and Sam's eight. Yeah. He must be, he must've been a teenager when Sam was born at most. So, yeah. Yeah. You know?

[00:29:13] So, so I mean, like you're using all of this manpower to chase after four people. And like I said, two of whom are children. Like that to me is a very short-sighted personalized goal. And it was very irresponsible of Kathleen as well. But I think even Perry hints at that as well. At times when he's like, are we really making a priority of this? This is going to take all these men. And she says, well, is he seventh on your list? Because, you know, so I saw Kathleen very differently.

[00:29:42] It's not to say I didn't think she's a great character, but I, I just found her very, again, short-sighted, selfish. Yeah. I found her. In that, that way. A little too, is myopic the right word? Just single-minded. It almost felt cartoony to me, especially by the end. It was like, really? You're going to kill these kids? Okay.

[00:30:07] I think Perry was quite interesting because I thought we were heading for Perry stops her from doing something bad or is... Pulling a mercer. Yeah. Has, yeah. But no, Perry's just like, you go, Kathleen. And then gets like his head ripped off. So I was like, oh, well, Perry, nice knowing you. I kind of like that because you can tell he's there sort of being like... It's real. Maybe you should, you know, do we really need to focus on this? And right now? And he's trying to temper her.

[00:30:36] But then when she really calls him on it, he's like, hey, you were the one that got results were behind you. That did feel like something that would really happen. Yeah, absolutely. It was a bit of a surprise, but... Yeah. Yeah. All right. Lucy, your turn. All righty. I thought one of the best parts of this episode was Ellie. I thought Ellie was great in this episode. I, in particular, Ellie highlights her being the ambassador for Joel.

[00:31:03] I thought it was just great, like explaining that his... I laughed out loud at the, his asshole voice remark. That's a weird fucking tone. And she's like, he has an asshole voice. And he's like, everything is great. And she like hits him like for fuck's sake. Yeah, I love that. And I love that. Because they took a tense standoff and made it hilarious. And it was great because I thought the same thing when Henry's like, I don't know what the next step is with something like this, you know, pointing his gun at Joel.

[00:31:32] But if I lower my gun, we didn't hurt you. So you don't hurt us. Right. And Joel's like, that's right. And I'm like, I don't believe him either. And then when, and then Henry goes, that's a weird fucking tone, man. And Ellie's like, that's just the way he sounds. He has an asshole voice. Joel, tell him it's okay. Everything is great. Dude.

[00:31:57] I've spoken a lot about like, Joel warming to Ellie because of that's the, that's, that's really important part because, you know, we're introduced to this world through the loss of his daughter. And that's lovely. But what I loved in this episode is you see that Ellie's opened up to Joel a lot as well. Like she feels a protectiveness to him or like an attachment to him. Um, and there was so many lovely moments. She's this translator. Yeah. She's this translator.

[00:32:22] She sees an opportunity for like kinship and her, I loved watching her like, um, Bella Ramsey did an amazing, just little bit of acting where, um, when Henry and Sam start signing and you can see Ellie, her hands sort of waver in the air cause she's just taking it in and she's obviously processing like, oh, okay, this is how they communicate. Um, this kid is profoundly deaf. Like what's, what's going on here? And I just felt that she and her relationship with Sam being kind of a big sister to him

[00:32:52] and reading that comic with him was just lovely. Um, and it brought this like lighthearted normalcy to it that I just think really stood out as a really kind of wonderful development of Ellie's character to show some kindness alongside some of her more, I don't know, darker tendencies that we've seen in recent episodes. I liked that Joel looked to her as almost an equal when he made sure she had her gun before they went in the tunnels and the two of them.

[00:33:20] I need you two to tell me what was said because I kept missing it when I was watching it where Henry says something like, oh, it's all fine down here. And they're like, shut up. But then they both turn around to him and yell, not like that. Is it how he's holding his gun? Is that a callback to last week? He says, uh, he says, you see, it's empty. The plan is good. That part. He says the plan is good. And they say, no, not yet. But then he says, yeah, he says something else. And then they both go, not like that.

[00:33:49] And I'm like, no, no, no, no, no, no. That's not what it was. He goes, uh, Joel's like, the plan is good. We've been down here two seconds. We don't know anything. And Henry goes, your dad's kind of a pessimist. And they're both, he's not my dad. I'm not her dad. Yeah. Oh, that's it. Okay. Okay. I was confused for him. And I was like, when did they say not like that? And then I couldn't understand what they were saying. Cause that, that really, it was funny. Right. Now that you know what it was. And it's sort of them both like, what? No, come on.

[00:34:19] Like they're kind of like a rom-com. This is kind of a creepy way to talk about it. Yeah. The couple where they're like, no, no, no. I would never. Oh my God. No, no. Yeah. Of course not. I mean, they're trying not to be, feel connected, but it's, no one believes it. That imparts a lot more meaning to Henry's later thing of like, you may not be her dad, but you're someone's. You were somebody's father. Yeah. Which is a lovely line. And, and oh my God, the scene at the end threw me a, because I thought Henry had been

[00:34:49] bitten, not Sam. I was like, well, one of them has been, which one is it? Cause I was like, they can't both have gotten out of this. Okay. And it sort of dawned on me in that scene where he's talking to Ellie that, oh no, this is Sam. Yeah. Well, when he said, when you're a monster, when you become a monster, are you still you inside? And it's like, uh, well, that goes back to something I had mentioned way back in the beginning when we first started podcasting on this is that whole question of if you become infected, are you still inside? Yeah. Yeah.

[00:35:17] And this is the first time it actually comes up, uh, through Sam and his. Yeah. I mean, it's a great thing for him to say. It's so tragic. And, and, uh, he showed his bite almost immediately, but, but there's a beat in there where I feel like most people watching would go, oh man, the only reason he would ask that is because

[00:35:40] he's been bitten and, and, uh, and what does that say about how this poor little kid is what's going through his head is sitting here. You know, he's just like, what's going to happen to me? It's just so sad. Yeah. I mean, I don't know. Did you think that, like, did you have a chance to understand what that meant before he actually showed the bite? I thought it was either he'd been bitten or he'd seen Henry be bitten. It was one or the other. Um, cause I, yeah, it was just such a well done scene.

[00:36:09] For a couple of reasons. And I think giving you the space to have those slow moments of realization, um, and Ellie saying my blood is medicine and, and it, it, it does actually advance the story a little bit as well. Hey, because it shows us that it's not as simple as she's got magic blood. I mean, I don't think any of us thought it was that simple. Like we're just going to drain Ellie of all blood and we'll cure everything, but it did show that they do need to develop it further. Cause although she's immune, it's not as simple as I give you some of my blood and you'll be fine.

[00:36:38] And the clever thing, I think one of the many things that I loved about having Sam be deaf is it gave a mechanic where Ellie could sleep in the same room as him all night and not be attacked because he's not going to get triggered by noise from her. So that reveal in the morning, although we all, I think we all knew in our heart that it was probably coming was very well done. The way it went from this very slow paced scene that was just really wonderfully acted by both

[00:37:04] those young actors to this screaming fight. And I really believe that Bella Ramsey's life was in danger in that scene when she was screaming, Joel, Joel. I was like, Oh my God, Ellie's going to know. Oh, this is so bad. Um, I just thought it was fantastic. I thought she was just so good in this episode. And I thought that really made the ending and that moment where you see her leave that note on Sam's grave, uh, and kind of turn into Joel almost when she's like, which was West? Let's go. Like she's, she's mirroring what he does.

[00:37:33] And that's, you know, they're becoming a real bonded duo, um, for better or for worse. And yeah. Oh, just horrible. And I did look up, I could not remember what the hell those things were called that Sam has around his neck. Did you guys remember the name? The Etch-a-Sketch or no? No, it's called a magic slate. It's not an Etch-a-Sketch. Oh, yeah. Okay. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I had to look it up, but like every review I've read of this episode is like, so I had to dig in my memory.

[00:38:02] Etch-a-Sketch would be a lot harder if you sit and kind of spell things out with two Yeah, because it's all, it's just, it's all one connected line. It's all one connected line. I'm scared of Scorpius. And then the moment you screw up, you just have to shake it and start over. Shake it all. I think you guys just wrote the SNL sketch there. I think that's going to be on next week. The Etch-a-Sketch thing. But yeah, apparently it's called a magic slate. So there you go. I learned that from a reviewer I read today on AV Club. But yeah, Ellie to me was the MVP, one of the MVPs of this episode.

[00:38:31] I thought it was a really good one for her generally. Absolutely. Well, that kind of leads me into my second point, if we don't mind, if we go, go into that is that you talked a little bit about, obviously, Ellie's impact on Joel in this episode. And we kind of see that by the end, because like you said, as you mentioned in the beginning, he has his asshole voice and he's speaking very monotoned and makes you scared to think what is really going on in his head.

[00:38:57] And by the end of the episode, we see that as kind of, we see Ellie's influence on him as in how he sees the world change in the moment that he confronts the sniper. Because the old Joel probably would have just shot on sight to end everything right then and there. But the fact that he has the gun pointed on the sniper and he says, stop, I'll give, like, give us an hour and we'll go. Joel and the moment of panic in his voice when he sees, that's probably not how this is going to go down.

[00:39:26] There's actually panic and worry in Joel's voice that he's going to have to do something he doesn't want to do, which is something the old Joel would have done probably without hesitation. Well, I feel like that's a bit of an inconsistency, to be honest, because last episode, he killed Brian with his own knife. But that was before Henning Sam, though. Yeah, that's what I was going to say. This is before Henry and Sam.

[00:39:52] This is before he's seeing how Ellie's interacting with Sam. He's getting, he's seeing more shades of gray from hearing Henry's story rather than just the pure black and white that he's used to. Oh, okay. So this has kind of changed Joel. Right, he's giving this guy a chance to be a human being and not just a bad guy. Yes, exactly. Kind of, like Henry and Sam are. Yeah. Especially because he was like a million years old. I mean, I can sort of buy that.

[00:40:21] But on the other hand, Joel's 56 years old. He's been through a lot. It seems like a pretty big shift to go from, I will just kill anyone who threatens me to, I'm going to give this guy a chance just because he met some nice people. You know, in the last couple of days. Like he's, but okay, fine. But I, yeah, I don't know. I'm with Ben on this one. Yeah. I'm of the belief that if, if they were not interacting with Henry and Sam, if had they

[00:40:47] not met Henry and Sam and they went through this situation on their own, Joel would have shot without hesitation. Hmm. He would have ended the situation right then and there. So he was a cold blooded killer until he met Henry and Sam and now he's nice. All right. Yeah. Well, 100%. That's kind of simplifying it a little too much. I'd say that's, yeah. But on the other hand, he's testing, he's feeling out new ways of being. And I think that is one where it's very, and also the other thing with the Brian situation

[00:41:17] is it was the, it was a very hurried, very hectic, very adrenaline field situation. Whereas this is one dude in an empty house. He's their only thing. And he's just asking him for more time. He's just appealing to the humanity of it because what he's learned from Henry is that, or what he's remembered from Henry is that there's humanity on either side of it. I mean, to me, it's like he, uh, this guy, Brian was clearly not a threat anymore. He was crying for his mother.

[00:41:47] He was also going to die though. That's the thing. It's like, I know Joel did finish him off, but in a way. Well, not necessarily. He could have been helped. Like the guy was like, can you get me to my mother so I can be helped? You don't know for sure. Um, but, um, now he's got this guy who was trying to kill them all with his sniper gun, you know, same thing. Yeah. But on the other side of things, on the other side, moving on from that though, um, on the

[00:42:12] other side of things too, I think we're also seeing a definite change in Ellie too, because I think we're seeing by the end of everything, because of what happens with Henry and Sam, Sam in particular, and then Henry's response to it. I think we're seeing a little bit of a loss of Ellie's innocence because by the time they're shoveling, you know, Lucy, you kind of touched on this too. So, Joel is the one there that's kind of thinking about everything and bringing it all in. And Ellie's the one that's like, let's go.

[00:42:42] She's kind of hardened from this now. She's becoming a little bit less, um, she's becoming a little bit more immune to this world now, which is kind of a shame because, you know, they're coming, you know, at the dynamic between the two of these characters, between Joel and Ellie, as far apart as they are, they're now starting to converge a little bit more towards the middle. Yeah. That's what we're saying. And there was a very telling moment where Joel runs almost to hug Ellie when he's trying

[00:43:10] to get her away from, you know, after they've shot Sam, Joel runs for her. He goes, but Henry stops him by pointing the gun at him. And I wouldn't have seen Joel doing that two episodes ago, but there's something instinct. It's like she's kicked in his fathering instincts again, like on quite a base level where he's like, I have to go get my kid. Um, which we've not seen before because that's, I also think that's the most distressed we've seen Ellie is that moment where she's just absolutely freaked out.

[00:43:35] Like we've seen her scared before, but I think that is probably the most traumatic thing that's happened to her up to this point. And he goes for it, but it's prevented from doing so. And yeah, that whole exchange was all instinct on everyone's parts, including Sam. Well, yeah, well, yeah, because even after, even after Sam is dispatched by Henry, like and, and, and Ellie is safe, Joel turns his attention towards Henry because he knows what's in Henry's mind right now.

[00:44:05] And he tries to prevent that as well. Yeah. Don't, don't, don't. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, um, I, uh, I agree this has changed Ellie and that she's probably moving more towards being a little more calloused like Joel, but also this is right after it happened. And I could, you know, anytime someone dies, you're going to be in a bad mood for a while, you know? And so I, I, um, I guess what I'm just saying is I don't think she's just going to start talking

[00:44:34] like this now or anything like that, even though that's going to develop her asshole voice. Yeah. Ellie's going to find her asshole voice. Like she might be a little more like, but you know what I'm saying? Just right now they just had to bury bodies. She needs time to process it. Yeah. We also learned, um, her, something that you can often speculate about, but not know about characters, which is her greatest fear, which is ending up alone, which I thought was a very interesting thing to learn about Ellie. Cause she comes across as quite a solitary person.

[00:45:01] But the fact she shared that with Sam was very heartbreaking and the stay awake with me killed me. I was gone at that point. I was like, Oh God, the Bill and Frank emotions are coming back. Well, when they said stay awake from me, I'm like, I just remembered back to the car when she said she wasn't tired. And I think that was a deliberate callback. It's like, uh, she's not going to last. I thought about that too. When you see her sleeping, I was like, Oh, she did it again. She felt asleep. Yeah. She promised she wouldn't.

[00:45:30] And as far as like Ellie putting her blood, like cutting her hand open and putting the blood on the wound. I saw that kind of like a twofold thing is in one Ellie. I truly believe that she believed that would help Sam. But at the same time, it was also a comfort to Sam because if he was going to go in, in the middle of the night, as he did, at least he's going with the comfort or the belief that would calm him that maybe this helped.

[00:45:59] So I saw that as both an attempt to fix and to comfort. Yeah, absolutely. And it was really, really dumb of her not to go and tell Joel. That's when you can tell that Ellie's still a kid. You're like, maybe tell a parent, maybe tell an adult that that just happened. That was, yeah, that was bad. Well, my next point is Henry and Sam's deaths, which was kind of the defining moment of this episode. Very, very tragic.

[00:46:27] Even more sad because Henry's not a violent person. Even in the apocalypse, he's never killed anyone, never even been violent, aside from having turned in Michael. But that was indirect. But he's never, you know, I believe him that he's never probably never even held a gun. You know, he reveals later that the gun he was pointing at Joel earlier was unloaded. And this is one thing, by the way, that Fedra has allowed him that he can have a violence

[00:46:56] free life so far anyway in this post-apocalyptic world. I would say that was one thing that really worked with the flashback was realizing that their guns weren't loaded. That made what came after very much. Changed the narrative a lot. Yeah, I like that. So yeah, in the apartment complex, Sam asks Ellie, are you scared? And of course, he's scared because he knows he's been bitten. And if you turn into a monster, is it still you inside?

[00:47:25] And I wonder if she didn't tell, if Ellie didn't tell Joel and Henry because maybe she was worried they would kill Sam. Maybe she wanted to see if it would work. And she wanted to see if this thing worked first. Yeah, I don't know. Or maybe she just honestly believed that she fixed, like she helped him. That's pretty naive. I would guess that she hoped, but you know what I mean? Like, I don't know. Maybe if you're, what is she, 14 years old, you might actually believe it.

[00:47:56] So then, yeah, Henry says, stay awake with me. She says, I promise. And they hug, which was really sweet. And then, of course, cut to Ellie asleep. And Sam with his back turned. And we all know what that means. Creepy. And then when he attacked and they spill out the door and Joel instinctively goes towards her to help. But then Henry points his gun at him and fires at his feet. And Sam's on top of Ellie growling her and Ellie screaming, Joel, Joel, Joel.

[00:48:24] And then Henry just turns and shoots Sam. And that was so shocking to see. It just immediately changed everything. And it was so fast. Like he was shooting at Joel to keep him away and then just shot Sam to protect him. And I think that happened without much thought. Oh, 100%. And then it was all quiet. And Henry's in shock. And we see blood pour onto the floor from Sam. And then Henry points the gun at Joel. And Joel's like, easy, easy, easy. Give me the gun, Henry.

[00:48:53] And he's all, what did I do? What did I do, Sam? And he's never done anything violent. And the first violent thing he does is kill his brother. It's his worst fear. Infected brother. The thing that he's worked against that whole time. It's his sole purpose, I think, has been to care for this kid. And so, I mean, for one thing, this is, this is, it's so horrible.

[00:49:19] And also, it's one of the things that moves me so much about zombie and zombie-esque stories. Is this person that you cared for is suddenly this monster. It's just so tragic, right? And, and this show just did it so well. Something that The Walking Dead rarely did. It did sometimes. But man, this is like the worst case scenario for someone. And, and one of the things that makes zombie-esque things unique.

[00:49:48] So then Henry turns the gun on himself and we, they don't show it. You see Ellie's face as the shot goes off. Yeah. And I felt, I just thought about listeners and viewers and felt bad for them. I, that's how I felt in that moment. Like, oh, this is going to bum everyone out. Yeah. It just, it made me sad. But one of the things I found interesting too, was the dynamic that shortly before that,

[00:50:14] Henry was willing to give himself up for Sam, knowing full well that Kathleen was going to kill him. But I mean, so I found it interesting that- Well, he told them get ready to run. So he was at least hopeful that they could maybe get away. Well, I mean, I mean himself. Kathleen was going to kill him, not necessarily Sam. Oh, I see. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But so I found it interesting that Henry was willing to let Sam live without him, but he was in no way able to live without Sam. No. Yeah. Which just further proves like, you're right. Sam was his motivation for moving on.

[00:50:43] I mean, so here's another suicide. You know, we talked about suicide last week, much different this time. For Bill, it was about feeling like he'd lived this full life and not wanting to go on without Frank. For Henry, it wasn't just about not wanting to go on without his little brother. I think it was also about feeling like he failed his brother, which protecting him was his only purpose in life. And just being horrified that he just killed his brother, or at least he felt that's what he did.

[00:51:11] It was a terrible, terrible trauma response to what had just happened. Yeah. It was a split second decision. Bill had more time to consider his decision. We actually don't know how much time, you know, the least amount of time he had was a day. But I suspect Bill had been thinking about that for a long time because he knew that Frank was dying. You know? I also think as well, the discussion we had on the listener feedback podcast was really interesting and informative.

[00:51:36] And I think the thing that we all overlooked is I think there was no indication that Bill was mentally unwell. And I think we started a conversation about suicidal ideation and mental health, which is a very valuable and important conversation to have. But with Bill, there was no indication that it was actually anything to do with his mental health. It was to do with his life as he wanted it to be lived. Whereas this instance was very much fueled by trauma, a kind of relationship that, you

[00:52:06] know, a feeling that you hadn't protected someone, seeing your worst fear come to life before your eyes and worse, knowing that your worst fear happened because you caused it in the sense that he killed the person he was trying to protect. So they're quite different scenarios, but they raise similar questions. I mean, for me, I don't totally agree with that perspective because I think if you feel like your partner's gone and you can't manage to live, you don't want to live anymore, that says something about your mental health.

[00:52:35] But otherwise, I agree with what you're saying. I think it does, but maybe not in a clinical depression sense. Yeah. Like, you know what I mean? I'll go with that. Yeah. Maybe it does though. You can definitely be bummed out, especially if Jenny's in earshot. Jason, definitely make it sound like you'd be sad if she died. Like, no, I'm not saying that at all. I'm not saying also that it's not a clinical depression thing, but maybe not necessarily.

[00:52:58] And then Joel and Ellie, Barry, Henry and Sam, and she writes, I'm sorry on the magic pad. And it is starting to feel like death of the week. You know, as I mentioned earlier, the show is really good at making us care about characters and then killing them. And I think some people are like, okay, what was the point of this? Just to care about people and feel sad they died. And I think that it's all a reflection on Joel and Ellie.

[00:53:28] Like Henry and Sam are kind of a mirror of Joel and Ellie, protector and protected, you know, for the most part, even though Ellie's a badass. Um, it's a reminder to Joel that he's now attached, you know, and, and Ellie too. I think that's another reason why they're kind of down because they don't want to end up alone. And this just shows them that they could, you know? And so it's like, uh, just so scary.

[00:53:54] And, and when Joel said to Henry, I think it's easier when you're a kid anyway, you don't have anybody else relying on you. That's the hard part. That's what it's about. Like these relationships, it's, it's a reminder that with love eventually comes pain. And I think that's a major theme of this series with love. There comes pain. It's there between Kathleen and her brother, Michael, between Bill and Frank, between Henry and Sam, between Joel and Sarah, Joel and Tess.

[00:54:20] And potentially, and this is kind of the main point between Joel and Ellie. Like they're just constantly being reminded if I get attached to this person, then I'm going to open myself up to the possibility of a world of hurt. So I don't know if that helps, uh, justify why we have to keep caring about people and seeing them die. But I think it really does feed into that theme of with love comes pain, you know? Oh, I've stopped loving. Yeah. I've stopped loving people. That's the moral. I'm done. Yeah.

[00:54:50] I don't like anyone anymore. Sorry, guys. Just, just never get attached to any characters. I understand. I'm done. But I mean, even, even to the people, even to the people that might question like, hey, what is the point of this episode? Like it's, I honestly, I firmly believe that the interactions with, that Joel and Ellie have with Sam and Henry are absolutely further character development of Ellie and Joel. Yeah. So, I mean, if you're looking for a point of this episode, that's absolutely it right there. Yeah.

[00:55:15] I mean, I, that it's character development in that they, they are bonding, but it's, it's making them feel like the more they bond, the more they have to lose. I think there's also a sweet, something to gain too. There's a sweet little motif that, uh, links Kathleen and Henry and Joel. And that's brother, brotherly love because Kathleen's, um, avenging the death of her brother. Henry's protecting his brother.

[00:55:43] And, uh, Joel's trying to get to his, Joel's trying to get to his, which I was like, yeah, that's neat. And that's a not typical kind of love. Like usually it's romantic love or something like that. Um, it's nice to see that as a motivational factor. Like it is a show. I really think they're sticking to their mission statement of being a show about love in all its forms. Um, and that was fun. I realized that and was like, oh, yeah, brothers. Okay. Lucy, your turn. Oh, well, I just threw out my golden point about brothers.

[00:56:12] So I'm, I'm screwed now. I don't love anyone. I don't have any points left. Um, I really enjoyed the infected action sequence. And with that, I am going to hand my point over to you two, who I'm sure will have much more intelligent and awesome things to say about the infected. But I thought the contortionist child infected will haunt my nightmares. For the foreseeable future. Um, it was just a wonderful scene.

[00:56:41] Seeing everything just run out of that literal hell hole. Um, that moment where the truck falls in, you hear the noises and then they burst out. Incredible. I'm guessing that's a bloater. The big Uruk high looking dude. That's a bloater. Okay. That's correct. Yeah. So, wow. Bloaters are grim.

[00:57:02] So are they like very, I got the sense they are not the speediest or most skilled, but they're the hardest to kill. Is that correct? And they're violent. Like if you get attacked by one. I mean, what they do is, and I'll talk a little bit about the game here because the way he acted in the show is very similar. I mean, I could just talk about what he did in the show. He stood there and faced off against Perry. Right. Right.

[00:57:31] And that, that happens in the game. They'll just face off against you and, um, then they'll just run right at you. Yeah. Which is what he did. So they do, they can be fast. They're not too nimble, but they can charge at you. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. And poor Perry lost his head. I did have a little, I was toying with a theory that Perry had a real soft spot slash love for Kathleen. And I was like, oh, well, I guess that's probably how he wanted to go. Um, but seeing so much for no gore. Oh my God.

[00:58:01] So grim. Ripped it right off. Yes. Ripped his head right off. Well, to all, I mean, and to all the people that were like, what, like we haven't gotten much infected. We have like, we've only gotten, we haven't gotten a lot in the past two episodes. They made up for it in this episode in the, cause that was actually my next point as well was the, the cracking open, the cracking open of the infected pinata. As I call it. But yeah, I mean, we got bloaters, we got clickers. I think it correct me if I'm wrong.

[00:58:29] There might've even been some shamblers in there. Uh, I don't know, which are another evolution of this because everybody seemed pretty fast. And I, from, I was watching pretty closely the next one. And most of them, I think were clickers, which, you know, when you think about the fact that as Henry had told Joel, like they drove 13 years ago, they drove them underground. And that's where they've been keeping them. So it makes sense. They're like advanced forms.

[00:58:57] They're evolving while they're under there. Exactly. But it also raised a question. And you, you kind of touched on a little bit with the child clicker. It raised a question that I've never really asked in playing the game in that it, once you're infected, it seems age progression stops. Yeah, I guess so. Huh? Because clicker implies advanced, like you've been an infected for a long time, but it was still a child's body.

[00:59:22] So a child clicker means that, like, that child was infected probably the 13 years ago, if not before. Yeah. And just stayed that down there the whole time, evolving into a clicker, but the body never grew. So once you're infected, age progression stops, which kind of. Hey, that's a bonus. As much as I, as much as I hate to say, it's immortality. As, as much as I hate to say this, relates them more to zombies than just infected humans.

[00:59:51] It's, yeah, it's, it's a, something in common with zombies. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. That your, your age progression stops. So, but I was right there with you too, Lucy and Jason on that child clicker. Like, and I looked into it a little bit. I saw an article pop up. I don't know if it's in the news or not, so I won't say too much, but the little girl that played that role is a contortionist. Oh, I mean, the way she flopped over into the back seat of the car, it felt very childlike, which was really. Really?

[01:00:20] Cause you have all like, oh, that's so horrible. And oh my God, Ellie's in danger. And oh, that was kind of cute. The little girl that plays her is like a nine year old who was a fan of the games apparently and sent in an audition tape. Never done any acting of any kind before, but sent in an audition and they loved her. So they made her that role. That's amazing. I mean, they said in the behind the scenes that they had, um, stunt and movement people as the infected.

[01:00:47] And I think that's so smart because, um, like in the walking dead, they just kind of act drunk and they'll, they'll take anyone for that job. I, I did it. Yeah. Uh, but when you, I just love the movement when it's, you know, I always say this, but herky jerky. And if you get someone who really understands and is a good at movement, they can just make it look super creepy. So that was, that was great.

[01:01:14] I mean, and we found out earlier too, in the scene within the second episode with the museum, how they used fans who just knew the movement and sounds of the clickers. Right. I just love the fact that Neil and Craig are start, are bringing in fans to play these roles. And I just, I think that's so great of them. It really speaks to the vibe of the whole production because you can tell, I mean, Neil Druckmann is the guy who created the game.

[01:01:38] So clearly he's a fan and just the way that even like when it says 10 years later, it's the same font I think is in the game. Just so using the same composer, like they're fans of this game. And so when something works really well in the game is impactful or looks good or whatever, they're going to bring it into the show. And, and that, I think that spirit is right down to letting the fans of the game who are good at doing this movement actually be in the show too. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:02:07] One more, one more thing to mention about this. And then I'll pose a question to you both before we move on to yours, Jason. But I found out too, I looked into it. The, that bloater suit cost about half a million dollars. Oh my God. And took the actor almost an hour to get into every time they did it. But it makes me pose the question too. And this is another question I thought of other than the child clicker is that if Fedra was driving these guys underground and keeping them underground, keeping Kansas City clear of infected.

[01:02:37] Wouldn't that necessarily mean that Henry and Sam were brought, Sam in particular, because he was born after all this happened. Have they ever interacted with infected before? When would they have had an opportunity? I think not because they're impressed that Ellie's seen a clicker. Yeah. Yeah. So that whole, that, I mean, talk about going from one end of never interacting to a hundred of them at once. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:03:06] Like that's a hell of a way to be introduced to the infected in this world. Oh yeah. Yeah. They, I mean, cause I said Henry had never been violent and I remember right throughout that whole attack, he didn't do anything then either. Yeah. Ellie was knifing infected to try to save them, but they just crawled under that car and were like just trying to kick him away. Well, he says to Joel, that's yeah. Why he needs him. He's like, I know the way, you know, violence.

[01:03:35] Well, I mean, having, you know, you look at Joel, who's been interacting with these for most of his life to Henry, who's never interacted with them at all. And how they, how, like how they behave when that happens, it really makes you realize that it's this world and the world that they're living in, mainly the infected that is really driving these people to become who they're becoming. Mm-hmm.

[01:03:58] Because Henry's never hurt anybody other than turning in Kathleen's brother and he's, and he seems like a nonviolent person, but that's because he's never really interacted with this world yet. He's never had his hand forced. Yeah. He's, yeah. I mean, it's like us, you know, it's like the United States, but on a much smaller scale. We're all here protected, living in civilization.

[01:04:23] And we need a military for, to, to enable that as much as some of us don't like that. That's true. It is. If we didn't have the military, we couldn't have the lifestyle that we have. And that's kind of how he is. It's on a much smaller scale, but same thing. Yeah. But that's it for me. All right. For that point. So my infected attack, I'll try not to repeat stuff.

[01:04:49] That big truck barreling through, crashed into the house, caught fire, exploded. And then what's her name? Kathleen comes out and tells Henry to come out and he steps out. But then the ground beneath the truck gives and it falls underground. I guess, so, you know, they had said that there were infected in tunnels, that Fedra said they cleared it out, but that was three years ago and maybe there's one or two more. So that's what this is, right?

[01:05:17] The truck fell down into those same tunnels. Same network of tunnels. No, I thought about that too. And I almost wonder if maybe this is a tunnel that was dug out by the infected. For it to be so far outside of the city. Yeah, because it was, it was, yeah, pretty far into, because when they came out of the tunnel, they were right in that suburban neighborhood. But then this house was much further down the road.

[01:05:44] It makes me think that them driving them underground and keeping them underground means they were finding their own way out by digging. Digging tunnels? Yeah. That's a funny thing to think. They're all out. Well, the movement, the scrabbling would do it, would it not? That's true. If you push things, but is that what we saw last week with the ground? You know, they opened the door and they were like, oh shit. Yeah, that's one thing I wanted to, because I don't, I don't, was that the same bloater that we just saw now? He's like roaming around underneath.

[01:06:13] I don't necessarily think that was a bloater. I think that was just the number of infected were just causing that. I would say it adds credence to Ben's theory that it's the amount of stuff that's down, people infected, that's down there that's pushing it. You can only keep so much in a small contained space. They're like moles. Well, I mean, you know, you think about the fact that like, if you put, if you take a bottle of Pepsi and you drop in a Mento and you close it off, what's going to happen? That gas is going to make it explode. It's going to find a way out.

[01:06:42] I guess. I mean, look how big the hallways were though, when Joel and Henry, you know, they were all down in there. There was a lot of space. They could have locked a door though and then had them behind it. Yeah, that's true. Although, do they breed or do they make little Cordy babies? Does that happen? Or is it a finite number? The only way they make more is by biting more humans. Well, you know, it's boring down there. I just thought they might entertain themselves. Yeah. I don't know. Maybe they do. They're all fucking away.

[01:07:09] Now I'm just getting the image of like infected playing cards while they're trying to keep themselves company while they're- Listening to podcasts. Trapped underground. Like, I've heard the cast of us is really good. Like, oh yeah, click, click. They really like us. Yeah, they love us. Keep leaving reviews. So, so then the, so yeah, I mean, Jenny thought, what did they bury, did people bury them down there? But I think it has to do with the tunnels because they kept mentioning the tunnels and that they were underground.

[01:07:33] Anyways, then you hear growling and then all the gunmen are focused on it. And when they come pouring out, it was so cool. It reminded me of World War Z, the movie. Yes. It was kind of like that, right? Fast horde of Zeds. So then it was great to see this, the face off between the group of militants with their automatic weapons, just firing into the Zeds.

[01:08:02] But the Zeds were so unified and fast and lethal. They just, the humans were flailing, you know? I mean, they look like a unified force too. They were all moving in the same direction, the infected. And then just the scene of chaos with the truck running some of them down and the Zeds ripping some people apart. It was incredible.

[01:08:24] And then this low growl from the sinkhole and the bloater comes out and hammer fists the guy, boom, and grabs another guy and just throws him down on the ground like a rag doll. And they're machine gunning him and he doesn't even seem to notice. That was just incredible. Well, if you think about it too, the resistance probably has not interacted with infected either. Yeah. Because it was Fedra that was keeping them underground. They took over Fedra. They've never interacted with these guys before either.

[01:08:53] But what else are you going to do? I mean, they're firing their guns at him. I don't know if you had interacted with him, you'd know what to do besides that. Oh, I'm not saying the panic's not real. Yeah. And then Ellie locks that one in the car and she's clawing at it. And then she goes and knives, tries to say. I felt, oh, yeah, the whole time we see Joel like just basically trying to protect Ellie. Anytime there's a Zed about to get her, he snipes it. And then at one point there's a whole bunch that are going to converge on her.

[01:09:23] And luckily a car comes by and runs them over. And that's called plot armor. Yeah. But it felt that felt gamey. That felt quite gamey to me that moment. I don't know. It felt like a cut scene or something. Yeah. I don't know. It worked. I don't know. Yeah. I don't know. Yeah. And then Kathleen, you know, they're running away. Ellie, Henry and say, oh, yeah, I was going to say it looked like Ellie. Maybe I misread this, but looked up at Joel like and motioned over to Henry and Sam like, I'm going to go help them.

[01:09:53] Okay. And he nodded, but he's so far away. I don't know if that's what was really going on. Anyway, she goes and helps him and then they run off. And then that's when I realize I'm just saying what happened. But Kathleen pops up about to shoot them. And then there's one last look at the battlefield before they and just just like utter chaos, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, killing fierce, you know, humans flailing. And then immediately cut to some apartment with one light on. You hear crickets. It's nice and peaceful and quiet. I like that cut.

[01:10:23] I love that cut. I thought that cut was great. What an amazing sequence. Yeah, it was fabulous. And Joel just screaming run out the window. I just loved that. Like, yeah. Yeah. Well, I loved I love the fact that it was like it was Joel screaming out the window run. And then as soon as they noticed the truck barreling through pushing cars out run was also what was written across the front. Yes. That was awesome. So if you didn't get run from one from one side, you've got it from the other. Yeah.

[01:10:52] Telling you what to do. Okay. Ben? I'll just I'll just make one more one more note and then the rest of that one more point that everything I'll have as kind of notes. I just think. And I'll try not to dive too far into this because I know we're going to go into game talk, too.

[01:11:11] But like, I just think this episode is another perfect example of how Neil and Craig are able to appeal to both non view non game players and game players in. They follow the story just closely enough that we as gamers know what's coming and know what to expect, but throw in enough changes that it still keeps us interested. Absolutely. Because I mean, there are we'll talk more about this in game.

[01:11:40] We'll talk about what they are. Yeah. The difference. Yeah. There's definitely some differences in this episode. But for the most part, there were so many great moments pulled from the game. But enough differences that I was like, yeah, like I'm going to keep watching this. Even if there wasn't, I'd still keep watching. Yeah. But it keeps us guessing, which is great. Yeah. Yeah. It doesn't it's not it doesn't make it 100% predictable.

[01:12:31] Mm hmm. Even when there's something new or different, then it's like a new experience. So I like that. Well, because even the changes that they made in this episode to, you know, to what we know from the game, I think makes certain elements hit even harder. Okay. Anything else about that? No, that's everything else I have is for Game Talk. So we'll wait till then. Yeah, it's great. I love we have this Game Talk segment. Okay. I had a little bit more to say about just Henry and Sam as a pair.

[01:13:00] I love the chemistry between these two characters and the actors, the warmth and connection between them. Lamar Johnson is Henry. He's, I think, around 28. Sam is Kivan Montreal Woodard. He's actually deaf. He got a lot of the crew members learning sign language. I was happy in the behind the scenes that they showed after the episode that that actor's

[01:13:27] ASL instructor or advisor that was with him was also the main character in Baby Driver. That was the actor that played his grandfather. Oh, that's nice. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. So he was a familiar face when I saw him on screen together. I was like, oh, I know who that is. I didn't recognize. I like the way their relationship, like we see that they're desperate.

[01:13:54] They have 20 cans of food, which should, Henry says, last 11 days. I worked it out mathematically. That's about two thirds of a can per person per day among the three of them, Henry, Sam and the doctor. Then we see 10 days later because he had said it would last 11 days. So it's a great way to depict the desperation. And the doctor's been gone. And we know he's been captured and will soon be killed. And then, you know, Henry's worried. I mean, Sam's worried.

[01:14:23] And it was such a sweet moment when Henry said, well, there's one problem, though. This place is ugly. And handed Sam the crayons. That just like it gave Sam a purpose, something to do. It showed that Henry, I think Henry values that this kid can draw and spread joy through his drawings. And also that, I mean, we'd already seen that he drew those pictures last week when Kathleen found their hideout.

[01:14:51] But this adds like meaning and emotion to it. That it was just something nice his brother did for him to make him feel loved. And Kathleen was right. In that room last episode, she said Henry will let himself go hungry, but he'd never let it happen to Sam. And that's exactly what we saw play out. Yeah, because they ran out of food. And that's what caused them to risk going out into the streets. And when Sam said, you know, the doctor wasn't coming back and they need to leave. I mean, Henry said that.

[01:15:21] And Sam said, did they kill him? And Henry pauses and goes, probably yes. I loved that. I was glad he was honest. I loved that. I was like, this is such a cool relationship because he's not mollycoddling him. And the hug they had after was just so sweet. Sometimes you just need a hug. Yes. And then he paints his superhero mask on him and shows him his reflection. And Sam smiled. And all of that really just warmed my heart, you know. And make it even more sad about what happened to them.

[01:15:48] From an ex-babysitter to the general public, don't put paint for walls on your face if you can help it. But I'll let it go. For the cuteness of this moment, I was like, you know what? It's fine. It's fine. I'll let it go. I'll let it go. But I was like, oh, I hope that doesn't have chemicals in it. Because that could be really. Anyway, it's fine. Hopefully it was water based. And so then they go out. And that's when they see Joel on this firefight. And I mean firefight. And Henry immediately is like, new plan. So he's like, I want to get this guy to help.

[01:16:17] Which I like that relationship between the two of them where Joel needed Henry to show him the way out. And Henry needed Joel to. Because he knew how to kill infected. That was great. And I liked to as soon as Henry told Joel that he was a collaborator. Joel's like, I don't work with rats. It's like he's judgmental of Henry just like Kathleen is. Because he's kind of, he's not exactly a rebel, but he dwells, Joel, he dwells on the fringes of his own society in Boston.

[01:16:47] He doesn't consider Federer to be his friends. But then later he shows some understanding saying if Henry was collaborating to protect Sam that he understands. So it's like they, they really are the mirror image of each other. Just understanding that the people in your life that you love and care about the most are the most important thing. That's where they're on the same wavelength. And he tells Joel he turned in Michael to get drugs for Sam's leukemia.

[01:17:16] And I do think that Joel would have allowed Henry and Sam to travel with them to Wyoming. I believe that too. Oh, I absolutely believe he would have. Yeah. Not at the start, but after they went through the, when they'd gone through the tunnels and once they'd been through the attack, there was definite kind of dad to dad energy. You know, easier when you're a kid anyway, nobody else relying on you. Model is shit. Like that kind of crap parent chat was great. I loved it.

[01:17:42] And it's kind of another example as to what we mentioned earlier is that how Joel and Ellie's interactions with Sam and Henry have kind of changed Joel to that degree too. Because before that he would have never let them tag along. No. Yeah. I mean, he got to know them. Yeah. So, but yeah. Yeah. Okay. Notes. Lucy. I've got so many. Shout out to Rima who pointed out. And I think I'd read this elsewhere as well is that Joel is wearing Frank's shirt from now on. I also.

[01:18:12] The flannel. The flannel. I also really liked the music at the end of this episode. It was Agnes Obel, Fuel to Fire. So that's for your Spotify. I had a little reflective slash nostalgic moment where they were looking out over the city and the from the boardroom and the horizon of Kansas City slash Calgary is very similar to the horizon that we used to see from our apartment block in Saskatoon.

[01:18:41] So I was like, oh, hi, Canada. Nice to see you. Kathleen's mom is alive. That was just a random tidbit. It was like Perry's like, oh, your mom told me. I was like, huh. Okay. Kind of really intrigued to know what Kathleen's mom is like, where she is. Does she live in a warlord palace? Like, what's her deal? So interesting tidbit. And that moment kind of humanized them a little bit more too. Like, she's like, who told you I was here? Your mom. And he was just like, we wondered where you were. Yeah. And kind of laughed.

[01:19:10] He loves Kathleen. He's like sucking up to her mom. Perry totally has a boner for Kathleen. I believe it. Quarantine zones have mains water. We learned that the doctor was rattling off what they should have food, water, bullets. Mentions that the quarantine zone main is connected to the apartment block. There was a scene that I should have mentioned when I was talking about Ellie that I loved, which is when they're eating with Henry and Sam. They're eating Puritan. Does Puritan stew exist in America as well?

[01:19:40] Because it's definitely a big Canadian brand or was historically. I don't know it. I don't know it either. They clearly picked some up in Calgary while they were in Kansas City. When they asked where they got the food from and Ellie said, Bill, and they ask, where is he? And they say he's dead. And Ellie just doesn't bother to fill in that like they didn't kill him or anything. It just sort of hangs there. I thought that was quite funny. They were like, okay. And she's like, yeah, moving on. The underground classroom where the kids had been playing with the drawings.

[01:20:10] Very Stranger Things season four. Very Girl with all the Gifts. And very Us. Jason, you and Karen and I covered that film. The Jordan Peele one. Oh, yeah. With the underground people. It really reminded me of that. I was like, oh. I can see that one. Yeah. I've made a note that I again should have mentioned earlier that Ellie is both kid and adult at different points in this episode. And it kind of highlights that teenage stage of like not being one or the other.

[01:20:38] And I love that she kind of is bragging to Henry and Sam that she knows Joel and he's just going to go blue, blue, blue, blue, blue. And then he'll say, okay, yeah, we can do that anyway. I thought that was a nice touch of humor. Yeah. Yeah. I think when Craig Mazin and Neil Druckmann, I think we're talking about that on the official podcast, they said this isn't even exactly. I can't remember. But they were saying, yeah, there's that age in there where you're kind of like, fuck you. Now give me a hug or something. Yeah, it is. It is.

[01:21:06] And Sam is still at the give me a hug age, whereas Ellie's got the fuck you as well. I love that Joel said the shooter has shit aim. I just thought that way. I don't know. I just like that. But also there's a moment where he really confronts Ellie and says, do you trust me? And Ellie has to really ask herself that. And I think the answer is yes. But it was nice to see that be kind of explicitly like eye to eye. I felt Kathleen, although she speechified, had some really good lines. I thought you're informers in form was very funny.

[01:21:35] And then when they said, you know, we told you everything. And she goes, yeah, of course you did. You're rats. When she said that, I thought they're all dead. Oh, yeah. Yeah. She doesn't give a fuck. She's like, yeah, you're all dead. She says it ends the way it ends, which was quite poetic, given that she then gets killed. I thought what she said was interesting about kids die, Henry, they die all the time. And this is what happens when you fuck with fate.

[01:22:02] Because I think that tells you a lot about Kathleen's perspective of like in this ruthless world. The needy or dependent maybe don't have long to go or like a survival of the fittest thing. I don't agree that Sam should have died. I'm just putting this out there before people are like, Lucy said that they should kill all children. That is not what I'm saying.

[01:22:22] What I'm saying is she raised an interesting question of whose needs trump whose and what's it worth exchanging a life for. And I think if it's your kid. That theme may come up again later. Yeah. And if it's your kid and they're dying of leukemia, bloody hell, you're going to move heaven and earth to get them the medication. But I thought it was interesting that she, as a villain, asks a question that I think is actually quite crucial to a lot of these kind of situations that you find yourself in an apocalypse drama.

[01:22:52] Endure and survive was the motto of a comic called Savage Starlight. And I loved that Ellie learned how to sign the saying. There was a nice bit of mirroring where Joel says, we are, we ate, we didn't kill each other. Let's call this a win. And then once they're through the tunnel, Henry says, let's call this a success and say our fond farewells. And my last thing is a question that I think may come up in Game Talk, which is where are the fireflies in Kansas City? Why are they not a part of anything that's happening?

[01:23:23] I don't know. Do they just not have big subscribers there? They're just not big in Kansas City. Yeah. My impression is the fireflies just aren't, you know, everywhere. Okay. That was, I just wondered if it was like. Yeah. I think they're only in certain locations. Okay. That's me. That's my note. To scale. Yeah. Ben? I guess the really only other thing I can say is that, and this is kind of, we talked about this during the feedback episode about Adrian

[01:23:52] Curry's tweet about Melanie Linsky and body shaming. Watching this episode, that tweet pissed me off even more because Melanie Linsky is so fucking good. She is. That's really the only note I have that's not Game Talk. Amazing. Yeah. I think I appreciate, even though I hate Kathleen more now, I also appreciate her character more in this episode than I did last time.

[01:24:16] Well, because I'm so used to seeing Melanie Linsky playing these roles that, and like, this is very different from anything I've ever seen her play before in this darker, you know, grittier character. Because Lucy, like you said in that conversation, like children, kids die, kids die all the time. I remember the first time I watched it, I was like, Jesus, that's dark. Mm-hmm. But I mean, so she's definitely playing, like, I remember Melanie Linsky from Two and a Half Men, which is a comedy, you know, Yellow Jackets and other things, but this is so much different, and she's so good at it.

[01:24:46] Mm-hmm. That, like, I just appreciated Melanie Linsky even more from watching this episode. Yeah. That's great. Yeah. I agree. All right. We had mentioned that FEDRA stands for Federal Disaster Response Agency in the game. We saw a sign that says that, so now it's official show canon, unless I missed that we'd already seen it before, which you probably have, but anyway, that's what it is.

[01:25:13] One of the listeners, I think it was Sydney Seidel, mentioned that this show spares us the gore sometimes and doesn't show major deaths on screen. We did not see Tess die. We didn't see Frank or Bill die. And once again, we didn't see Henry being, you know, killing himself. We did see Sam, though, and that was really shocking, and Kathleen, and definitely Perry, which was awesome.

[01:25:43] Awesome. That was. Heads rolled. Agreed. Rock. Wow. So if you thought they were going to spare us that, not so much. I think they're really concerned about the emotional impact of each moment. And when it's maybe when it's someone we really care about, like they should have done with Glenn on The Walking Dead, that probably would have been better to spare us that.

[01:26:07] But when it's someone that we've come to hate, which they were working really hard to make us hate Kathleen, they just show a zombie chomping right down on her. Yeah. You know, it's interesting. And last, I liked this line when Joel said to Henry, what's that comic book say? Endure and survive. And Henry goes, endure and survive. That shit's redundant. I love that. I'm going to Kansas City.

[01:26:36] Kansas City, here I come. I'm going to Kansas City. Kansas City, here I come. All right, we're back. It's time for some news.

[01:27:04] So I was on news gathering duty this week. I will say because the episode aired early because of the Super Bowl, some of the usual outlets have been a little bit quieter. So I imagine the feedback episode will be slightly more news heavy than this one. However, I've got three interesting articles, one about Melanie Linsky, one about the bloater and of course one about the little contortionist who's haunting all my nightmares. So thoroughly recommend.

[01:27:33] Vulture.com interviewed Melanie Linsky about her experience on The Last of Us. I'm going to read a couple of excerpts, but I really recommend listening, reading rather the whole thing. First question was, Kathleen is not in the game. How was she described to you and how much did you get to know about the game before doing the series? It's worth saying I misread this and thought Kathleen is not in the game was like a comment on her character. And then I was like, oh, no, wait, no, the video game. That's what they're asking her about rather than just not being very tuned into what's going on.

[01:28:03] So Melanie Linsky says, I knew about the game because it's my husband's favorite game of all time. I heard him talk about it with absolute reverence, but I've never been able to play video games or focus on them. I tune out a bit. But I knew Craig personally, which I think we covered in last week's news episode. He called me and said, I'm going to ask you to play a war criminal. He said, imagine if you were Jesus's sister and your brother was this wonderful person whom everybody adored and respected. And you were fine, but nobody really felt that way about you. Then he's brutally murdered.

[01:28:33] Your world is upended and you're forced to step into the position he had. The interviewer says, I wonder if having a sibling who is so revered would push her further towards ruthlessness. Maybe she'd have had a sense of resentment about it. Melanie Linsky says, I think a lot of close relationships are a mixture of reverence and resentment. She had all those feelings. I wanted her to carry herself in this very unassuming way and for her voice to be kind of small. She's a person who's been overlooked, literally.

[01:28:58] What an interesting thing for that woman to be placed in this particular role than find herself filled with that power. And finally, they ask, did you build an idea in your mind of what she was like when she was younger? Linsky says, I think she had a colder view of the world. She wasn't a person who connected easily. It's complicated being the little sister of somebody who connects with people, inspires people. It's a wonderful human looking out for everyone else. On the one hand, he kept her safe through a chaotic childhood and the end of the world.

[01:29:25] But at the same time, she looked at what he was doing and was like, it's not going to be effective. You're not ruthless enough. So it's a great interview and I really recommend reading the full thing. But those were the three parts I thought was really interesting. If you send me a link, I'll put the link in the show notes for people if they want to check out the rest. Slashfilm.com spoke about the child clicker and the headline really tells you all you need to see,

[01:29:52] which is the child clicker's audition tape for The Last of Us was pure nightmare fuel. So I hope I never have to watch that video. But they talk a little about what we discussed earlier and saying that plenty of audition tapes were received featuring lots of high skilled contortionist kids. Now, that's something I really don't need to think about, but I am now.

[01:30:14] But according to Maison, Cowton, so the actress who plays this contortionist child is called Sky Cowton. According to Craig Maison, Cowton was the most terrifying. It was so creepy that they had no choice but to hire her. Once they married her natural skill with the magic of post-production, poor Kathleen didn't stand a chance. Maison said she's this beautiful little girl, but it's so creepy how she can move her body like that.

[01:30:40] And so it was a combination of her performance and then Weta kind of creating, taking, drafting off what Barry Gower had created with prosthetics, then making this little girl. And I insisted that our child clicker wear a Blues Clues t-shirt because I'm really sick. And I just love that contrast of innocence and horror. That's amazing. Because I'm really sick. Because I am sick. I love it. That's awesome.

[01:31:06] And finally, it's Variety again, talking about The Last of Us Bloater, how HBO made the video game Clicker Monster. So Barry Gower, who we just heard mentioned, he's the prosthetics designer on The Last of Us, and he birthed the bloater for its live action debut. The four-time Emmy winner is a master at creating grotesque special effects and monsters. Very relevant to Podcastica, he's the architect behind Vecna on Stranger Things and the Night King on Game of Thrones and many more.

[01:31:35] The bloater, made of a bulky practical suit and some CGI, is his greatest creation. Adam Basil, a 6'6 UK stuntman who worked on Game of Thrones with Gower, had the perfect build, girth and fitness for the bloater. Gower recommended him for the job to the showrunners, then made a complete cast of Basil's body to shape the monster. We had a whole copy of his body that we modelled the bloater prosthetics over in modelling clay. We casted out a foam rubber and foam latex, which is very lightweight.

[01:32:05] It's almost like upholstery foam. That was modelled and cast into separate sections, top, half, head, arms and legs. We had a team who fabricated these parts together. We had a zipper up the back and around the waist that we could zip them together. This is my favourite sentence. He had all these pendulous folds of fungus, which hid zippers and poppers. To make the fungus pieces stand out, the suit was covered in a... This is a disgusting article. His suit was covered in a slimy lubricant.

[01:32:34] Gower says the suit would be soft, but very slimy and wet. We covered him in this gel-like solution, which gave a gloss to all the fungus. Oh God, I haven't eaten my dinner yet. Why am I reading this? We had lots of little spines and spiky hairs punched into his body, like little growths burrowing out. To get the shapes to read, we had to cover them in a gloss. It was like a texture that we were building up. We were repeatedly going in and gelling him up more, covering him in this lube so he was nice and shiny.

[01:33:02] Gower estimates that the entire bloater suit weighed 40 kilograms or more, roughly 88 pounds, which was a heavier build than Vecna. On top of the bloater, there were 10 to 15 stunt performers in clicker costumes and 40 to 60 infected extras who wreaked havoc on the Kansas City cul-de-sac in The Last of Us. It took a team of 65 prosthetic artists five hours to finish all the makeup. Since the clicker attack takes place at night, the makeup process would start around 3 or 4 p.m. to begin shooting at 9 p.m.

[01:33:32] So, yeah, a lot of prosthetic prowess went into that, although I don't think I'll be eating any slimy mushrooms anytime soon. Oh, that's horrible. So that was the news. That was amazing. I like that. That's awesome. I love the fact that they use mostly practical effects too. I mean, I'm sure there's CGI in there, but the more practical that you use in sequences like that, the better. Pendulous folds and slime. Oh, dude, that's awful.

[01:34:03] It's like poorly written erotica. You're like, oh, God, pendulous folds. Some people get into that. No, thank you. All right. Let's move in. That was awesome. Let's move into game talk. I'm going to go through what happens in the game. Feel free to jump in, Ben, if you have any color commentary, and then we'll just talk about more notes. So Joel and Ellie are making their way through in the game Pittsburgh after this ambush when they entered and lost their truck.

[01:34:31] They fight a lot of people that are called hunters in the game. Same thing as Kathleen's people. They had overthrown Fedra. They're making their way through some apartments and a man grabs Joel and they start fighting and Joel's beating the hell out of him. And Ellie yells, stop, because then you see that it's Henry and Sam is there with his gun pointed at Joel. And Henry, by the way, is played by Brandon Scott in the game who played Nick in Dead

[01:35:00] to Me, this other show that I covered on podcast. Oh, pretty cool. So Henry just says he and Sam are from another group and he thought Joel was a hunter. But then when he saw Ellie, he knew he wasn't because he says the hunters don't keep kids around. So that's sort of a thing with the hunters in the game. So they decided to help each other escape the city. They, you know, you have to fight more hunters along the way.

[01:35:27] And then Henry at some point says he's also looking for the fireflies and he planned to meet his group at a radio tower just outside of Pittsburgh. Later, at some point, they're being chased and they get separated. And Henry has to abandon Joel and Ellie to save Sam. And Joel and Ellie end up falling in the river and they get knocked out and they wake up on this beach with Sam and Henry and they end up forgiving them. And they walk along the beach.

[01:35:57] They find this boat and there's a note inside from someone named Ish. That's one of my notes. Yeah. So in the show, when they find the remains of this underground community, there's a drawing of Danny and Ish, our protectors. There's a lot about them in the game that you find out through notes. What did you want to say about that, Ben? No, that was pretty much it. Is that like, I, I got, I just smiled a little bit when I saw them see the picture on the wall with the art protectors.

[01:36:26] And one of them was called Ish because I am familiar with those notes. So I think in the game, if I remember correctly, Ish is a character that comes into that area after everybody who was living. Okay. Go ahead. Yeah. So, so you find several notes that tell a story. He was out to sea after the outbreak. Then he lived in the sewer by himself and he went out looking for supplies. He found this family and traded supplies with them, but he went back to the sewer and he got lonely.

[01:36:53] So he went back to the family and said, Hey, you can come live with me in the sewers. And that eventually became this community. They invited more people in. They created, they had a school, they had showers and beds. They had the kids paint the front doors to look like a castle, like we saw in the show. So, and at some point this character, Danny came in and they became the protectors. And that's when the kids drew a picture of them.

[01:37:16] But at some point someone left the safe house door open, a horde of infected flooded in. And we learned that Ish and someone named Susan and a few of the children did manage to escape and they took shelter in the suburbs. And then we don't know what happened to them after that. So it kind of leaves it open. Yeah. Cause you have to, in the game, you have to fight your way through the remnants of some of those infected that are left behind as you're, as you're working your way through the sewer system. Yeah.

[01:37:46] Yeah. You're fighting infected and people throughout all of this. I wonder if they cut any fight scenes in the tunnels or any just, I wonder if there was maybe more to it when they were filming, but yeah, I don't know. I think if I, if I remember correctly too, Jason in the game, while you're going through the sewers, I know you mentioned that Ellie and Joel become. Separated from Sam and Henry when they take off and then they're reunited on that. Yeah. I'm still going with all that stuff. Oh, go ahead. So, cause I think you're going to say where I'm about to go.

[01:38:14] So Joel and Henry and Sam and Ellie end up going through the sewers to get to the radio tower. They find issues place. They find zombie or infected there. They find skeletons of kids. It's really dark. Um, then they get separated again. Is that what you're going to mention? Yeah. That's where I was going to mention. Where it's this time, Sam and Joel together and Henry's with Ellie and, uh, they're behind this door and they can talk to each other through it, but there's zombies coming. So they're like, you better protect her.

[01:38:43] And then they have to fight more, um, infected. And eventually they ended up back together. They get to this suburban neighborhood and there's sniper fire. Now in the show, when, um, Joel, Ellie, Henry, and Sam come out of that tunnel into this neighborhood and they're joking around and Ellie's making fun of how Joel talks and everything. And then, you know, that part I'm talking about, Lucy, when they first come into the neighborhood

[01:39:09] and it seems like a quiet moment where they're just goofing around and then there's a shot from out of nowhere. And only when there's that shot, do we see the perspective where it's the house at the end of the street with a field of cars and the sniper inside. If they had shown that perspective right when they came out of the tunnel, any gamer would just tense up because we've all been killed many times by that sniper. Like dozens. We've all been there.

[01:39:40] Right, Ben? Oh, Rima made the joke about it in our chat that like how quickly they made it through that scene where it took her like 45 minutes. Yeah. 45 minutes. That's on my second playthrough. On my first playthrough, it probably took me over an hour. Yeah. That scene is burned into our brains. I mean, we've spent so much time there and just like in the show, um, Joel, you know, he takes cover behind cars, but you need to go to the left through those houses that are on the left.

[01:40:08] You eventually figure that out and he figured it out right away or else like us, he would have died. Imagine if they actually filmed it as just as though it was the video game would be what? 20 hours long, correct? So just Joel failing to do. Well, the other, the other big difference in the game too, is that when you go to the left through those houses, there are hunters there patrolling. Oh, I forgot about that. You have to take out. You have to either avoid or take out other hunters. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:40:34] So then in the game, he reaches the house, he goes upstairs, but the snub, uh, the sniper jumps him and they fight and Joel kills him. Okay. And that would have been a boring, typical action movie stuff, but instead they made it this emotional thing where Joel's trying not to have to kill him. So that was better. Um, then he's up there, he looks out the window, he sees that hunters have come and he has to snipe them so they don't get Ellie and Henry and Sam. Cause if they do, you lose too, if any of them get killed.

[01:41:01] And then the Humvee comes and crashes into a house and then infected show up, not from a sinkhole. They just heard the fight and it's, is it daytime still? Or is it? I think it's, yeah, I think it's like sun sunrise. Okay. Okay. I think the sun is coming up because I think when they, as they leave into the cul-de-sac in the game, it is nighttime, but I think it's so late that as you're going through all this, the sun is coming up. Sun's coming up. Yes.

[01:41:28] And so anyway, after a long fight with the zombies and the people, they eventually escape not knowing Sam was bitten. They get to this radio tower. Um, Ellie had, so one part where they were all exploring, um, Sam wanted this toy robot that he found in a bookstore or something. And Henry said, no, we don't need things like that anymore. And Ellie grabbed it. And, um, then here in the radio tower, she gives it to him and says, if, if he doesn't know about it, he can't take it away.

[01:41:57] And then she goes to bed somewhere else. And we see, um, Sam dropped the robot. Like he doesn't care. And then he pulls up his leg, uh, pant leg to reveal he's been either scratched or bitten, but Ellie doesn't see it in the game. So in the morning when Ellie asks where Sam and Henry goes, Oh, I let him sleep in for once. Why don't you go wake him up? She goes in and then she gets attacked. And then that scene plays out almost exactly like we saw Joel goes for his gun. Henry shoots at him.

[01:42:26] And then Henry shoots Sam and gets really distraught and shoots himself. And it was just as shocking in the game as it was in the show. Yeah. Oh, for certain. Yeah. One of the things that like that also different is that when Joel and Ellie first meet Sam and Henry, it's not an office building. It's actually just in like an apartment somewhere in Pittsburgh. So they're not in this high rise. Um, one of the other big differences that we mentioned that has really been mentioned

[01:42:54] too, is that, uh, Sam and Henry, uh, Sam in particular in the game is not deaf. Uh, Lucy, you kind of touched on that a little bit earlier. There's no, he's not deaf at all. And he, there's no mention of leukemia at any point. They're just two normal people. I love the Easter egg of the Savage Starlight comic because that is directly from the game. Yeah. I have some information on that since you just brought it up.

[01:43:19] So in the, in the game, you find these comics and you can collect them and you can read the blurb on the back to get to the story. There's 14 issues. The synopsis for the whole story is set in the year 2186. The plot of Savage Starlight centers on Dr. Daniela star's adventures in space. She discovers a method of traveling faster than light via jump drive and soon finds that a group of hostile extraterrestrials known as the travelers are threatening mankind.

[01:43:47] And then they have issue six, uh, Henry and, um, I mean, Sam and Ellie, it's called accretion. It's got the same cover as in the game. Mike Oming did the art and the blurb for that issue says Daniela and captain Ryan have been down into the arena where the hungry eyes of the travelers watch as they are forced to fight to the death. Will she put aside her feelings for the captain to fight for her own survival? And, uh, there's a dark horse logo on the comic, which is a real comic book company that

[01:44:16] actually published a real last of us comic called the last of us American dreams. That is another story about Ellie. I'm really glad to know that. I wonder, cause in the walking dead, often you'd get a Kirkman comic, invincible or something. So I was like, is this real? Is it in the game? Like, that's cool. Yeah. Yeah. So the comic isn't real, but it is in the game. It is straight out of the game as is to the edge of the universe and back in Doran survive. That's also a direct line, right? Oh yeah. The game as well.

[01:44:43] Uh, the only other thing I'll have to say, and then I'll turn it back over to you if you have any other final notes too, is that I, you know, you talk about how, you know, the Henry and Sam interaction, how it plays out at the end, almost identically to the game. Um, um, you know, as somebody who knew that was coming, uh, you know, watching the game, as long as they kept up to it, it still hit me just as hard.

[01:45:08] And it like getting all these new interactions of, you know, seeing Henry signing to, to Sam because he's deaf, knowing that what Henry has gone through to protect Sam, all these new added elements that weren't in the game added to these characters, I think made that moment even more impactful because even though I knew it was coming, the moment Henry turns his gun on himself and ends his own life, instant sobbing from that moment on, even though I

[01:45:37] knew it was going to happen. It's still, that's why I say this episode is four out of five for making me sob. Yeah. I always find myself in denial in these situations. Sometimes even when I've already seen a movie, there's a part of me that's like, no. And so I was like, maybe they won't do it. Right. I still feel that rewatching stuff. I'm like, nah, they're not. No. Imagine this time. Maybe this time. It'll just go. Nope. Still happened. Still happened. Damn it.

[01:46:06] I'm watching an alternate cut where it never happens in this one. Yeah. But yeah. And I knew they probably would go there. But one thing I really like about, like we said before, the creators of the show are fans of the game. One of them was the creator of the game. And they really keep the moments from the game that really hit. And two of those in this episode were the way Henry and Sam went out. And also just that whole sniper sequence. Because if you play the game, you had trouble there.

[01:46:35] So I'm glad they keep this stuff. I'm going to say something that will sound like an insult, but for me is actually a massive compliment. It feels to me that The Last of Us, the TV show, is like the best kind of fan fiction, which is taking the canon of what we know and embellishing bits where there's room to move things around and improving things where it wasn't done the way even the game creator would have liked the first time around. And I just think that's great.

[01:47:01] I think the filling in of backstory, the adding different elements, the tweaking things, that's just such an act of love. And that's the kind of thing that really good fan fiction can do is add that element to it. I've never thought about fan fiction that way. That's cool. And I think Neil Druckmann has even said that himself in that like this show has given him the opportunity to do things that he never was able to do in the game or would have never worked in the game. Or sometimes he says, damn, I wish I would have thought of that for the game. I would have done this differently. Like the whole tendril thing and how they connect.

[01:47:31] He was like, yeah, I wish we could have gotten some great gameplay out of that. Yeah. So yeah, I'm loving all the changes that they're making. Yeah. Just a couple other things. I don't remember if there was a bloater here before. No. I don't think so, right? No. There wasn't. The first interaction we get with the bloater is during the Bill storyline. Yeah. So when they go to find Bill and then Bill, I think sends them looking for a battery to power his truck or something.

[01:47:59] They end up in a high school gymnasium and one of those bloaters comes in and it's just chasing after Joel. You have to like hit it with everything you've got until it finally dies. And last is just to say, who was it? I think it was Rima said that she'd read that the people who watched the show in advance before

[01:48:24] before it actually aired said they appreciated the game more after seeing the show. And I'm getting that now because I really feel like I understand the hunters more for one thing than I did just from playing the game. You know, it makes me want to go back and play the game like a sixth freaking time just to... Oh, I'm going to, but I'm waiting till the series is over. Yeah. I'm psyched to play it for the first time. I'm starting to wonder if I should set out of Game Talk because I'm getting, if I'm planning on playing it, but also I'll forget. Yeah. I'm dumb.

[01:48:54] I forget. Stuff like that too. So yeah, I don't think people knew that you've decided to play it right since you podcasted last. Yeah. My friend, my friend is going on a long trip and they have a PlayStation and they have said that I can borrow it. And I made that sound like I'm murdering my friend. I'm not. They are actually going traveling. They're going on a long trip. I'll send their boarding pass. I can prove it. I can prove I've not stolen the PlayStation. But yes, they and their wife have very kindly said that we can borrow the games one and two and play them while they're away.

[01:49:22] So I think Peter might play and I might watch because he's better at video games than I am, but we'll see. So are you going to play? We'll live stream it. Are you going to play two as well? I don't know. I can't decide. I might. I don't know. I might consult with y'all about what you think. I think you should not. Is the series taking us all the way through both or just the first game? The first season is just the first game. Yeah. Yeah. Maybe I'll hold back then.

[01:49:47] The second game, I would say if you didn't want to be spoiled on the first game, you definitely don't want to be spoiled on the second game. Okay. That's what I think. Okay. I'll bear that in mind. All right. That is our show. Episode 508. Thanks everybody for listening as always. Love you guys. We're going to do our feedback episode in a few days.

[01:50:14] If you want to write in or leave us a message, you can find all our contact information at podcastica.com. And while you're there, be sure to check out our other shows because we have a few at the moment, I believe. Yeah. If you guys haven't had a chance to listen to It's Showtime, folks, that's our movie-centered podcast. We've just put that out whenever one of us feels like talking about a movie. And the most recent one was Ben and Kristen talking about everything everywhere all at once. And that was great. And I love that movie.

[01:50:43] I love that movie so much. It was so much fun to talk about that with Kristen. Yeah. Very cool. Next episode of this podcast is, as I mentioned, the listener feedback for this episode, Endure and Survive. And this episode is made possible by Patreon supporters like Matthew Rimmer, who've pledged their support at patreon.com slash Jason Cabassi. So thank you so much to Matthew. Thank you, Matthew. Matthew doesn't have to listen to the ads. All right. That is our show.

[01:51:13] Thanks for listening. Don't get bit Jeff Sharp.