549: "Guts" (TWD S1E2 Rewatch)

[00:00:00] Oh my God! Oh, this is bad. This is really bad. Think about something else. Puppies and kittens. Dead puppies and kittens. Hey Zedheads, welcome to our podcast. I'm Jason. And I'm Lucy. And this is Cast of Us

[00:01:00] episode 549. And this episode we're covering The Walking Dead, season one, episode two, episode three. Guts. Guts. Guts. It takes guts. So let's just get right into it. What did you…how was it to watch this in general again? Yeah, it was good. When's the last

[00:01:18] time you saw these? I feel like I've watched the pilot out of sequence more frequently. Me too. This episode, I think we last did a full rewatch. It must have been over like

[00:01:31] pre-Canada like five or six years ago. So it's been a while. Yeah, this one I liked it well enough, but it's hard following up from the strength of the pilot. Yeah, I remember

[00:01:44] feeling that when I first watched it because I was like, is it going to stay consistently as good? And I watched this one and I thought, nope, not quite. But now watching again, I

[00:01:54] very much enjoyed it because we know all the characters and it was interesting to go from a few characters to a bunch. And it was still, I would say a pretty focused, simple plot

[00:02:05] of just like, oh, we're stuck in the city. We need to get out. But it was very much more about the tension between the characters. And so it felt similar to The Mist, which

[00:02:15] we watched Karen and I in preparation for this, which is a Frank Darabont thing. And I suspect that helped him get the job as the showrunner for the first season because it's also about a bunch of characters trapped with monsters outside. And it even has Laurie

[00:02:29] Holden, Jeffrey DeMunn and Melissa McBride in it. If you guys haven't seen that, I would check it out. And the guy that he wanted for Rick, Thomas Jane is the main guy. That's right. Oh yeah. That's yeah.

[00:02:39] I think that's a really good thing. It would just be like The Misting Dead rather than The Walking Dead if they'd fully gone down that route. Yeah. I mean, who knows? Maybe it could have been fine, but I don't even want to think about

[00:02:52] that because it's the best. That's an AU that I do not want to partake in. Thank you very much. I'm really sick, by the way, in case you can't hear, but I'm going to push through. So do you mind if I go first?

[00:03:05] Not at all. You're on limited time, so go for it. I just want to say rawr. I just want to do my points before I turn like sure. Go off. I'm going to start with Merle because Merle

[00:03:19] it's first appearance and I think this episode actually would not have worked nearly as well without Merle as fucked up as this guy is. He's a chaos agent. He's the source of conflict and danger. He helped shed light on what the other characters, mostly Rick are made of,

[00:03:43] you know, and just how they handled them. It kept going with the idea that this show is disturbing and it was a different kind of disturbing, you know, like Gore at the time was shocking. Now it's not. But Merle now would be shocking. Like they wouldn't

[00:04:05] show Merle on a show now the way he was. I found it so uncomfortable rewatching it and it wasn't even just the use of language. It was like T-Dog gets a savage beating. Like

[00:04:17] a savage beating. I had forgotten that. I thought he was just a racist shit. I'd forgotten that he's actually absolutely unhinged. He's like a rabid dog. Like he's off the hook. I mean, yeah, he's all coked up and when he's like saying, let's vote, you know, who's the

[00:04:33] leader and they all raise their hand. That was disturbing because he's just got them under his thumb, right? And they have to say what they need to say to stay alive basically. So,

[00:04:46] yeah. And I felt, I remember feeling in season three that, ah, they're kind of softening him up a little bit. And that was sort of my criticism of Daryl at first too, that he comes on like this

[00:04:58] total dickhead and then they soften him up over the years. But I sort of rationalized that by saying, okay, well he was under this guy's influence. Exactly. I thought about that a lot. I was when I was watching Rick handcuffing, there's like two points, you know, like when

[00:05:16] you're playing a video game where it's like narrative and it's like these are the points that really change the narrative. And I was like, well, Glenn saving Rick is the story wouldn't happen without that. Rick would be dead. And then after that, Rick handcuffing Merle to that pipe.

[00:05:32] I don't think we would have Daryl in the way that we have him if that happened. Because Daryl confesses later, he's like Merle and I were going to rob you. So without getting rid of Merle for

[00:05:42] Daryl, I don't think we could have Daryl the way that he is. Yeah. And I mean, I still, I do have those feelings like over the years, the Walking Dead sort of fontified Daryl. Oh definitely.

[00:05:56] You never know. Happy Days was about this kid, Richie Cunningham. And he had this friend who was a motorcycle greaser type named Fonzie that was James Dean like and the audience loved him

[00:06:07] so much that the show ended up becoming about him and it kind of softened him up. And it feels like they did that a little bit with Daryl. But you can you can make it work because you could say,

[00:06:17] yeah, Daryl actually was this sensitive guy at heart and just being abused by his father and also his brother. And once he got out under their thumb and got around to better influences,

[00:06:30] he could change for the better. You know, there's also the thought I kept having watching this, which is, oh yeah, Martinez becomes a savior. I know. I had completely forgotten. This sweet father is becoming a savior. I'm like, oh, well, we'll revisit that. I'm sure

[00:06:48] that's not his name, though. What is his name? Oh, not Martinez. Sorry. It is Morales. Morales. Martinez is the other savior. Yeah. Or no, he's the Woodbury. Yeah. So but Merle. So

[00:07:04] I mean, it is disturbing, but I am drawn to things that show petty people like I always say George Cassandra is one of my favorite character and just like the idea of Andrea being so mad at Rick that

[00:07:17] she's about ready to shoot him in the head just because he fired his gun to save his own life and drew zombies in. And then you have Merle up on the roof. Boom, boom, boom. Yeah. For no reason.

[00:07:31] And that was funny. And just I mean, punching everyone. It was really harsh. But he's got his racist slurs and everything. It kind of remind me of the bear, the chaos. Yes.

[00:07:43] The chaos of the bear on the roof. I can buy that. Yeah, I did. It was hard to listen to. Like it was. I did find it really. And it's hard because like people like Merle do exist.

[00:07:56] And yeah, but I think now they would film that scene without some of the language. The N word in particular. Yeah. I mean, that's that's the difference, isn't it? It's like we're just we're not. And that's a good thing. It's a good progression that we're not doing that.

[00:08:09] But it was I found it when I was rewatching. I kind of fast forwarded some of that because I was like, oh, I don't want to watch it again. Yeah. He calls Andrea sugar tits and.

[00:08:18] Oh, yeah. Just got thrown off the roof. Such a charmer. Yeah. Yeah. And they they leave him up there. And you think, well, they probably should have if if it was somebody else or you

[00:08:29] just take the Merle-ness out of the equation, they should have just retreated but then made some noise somewhere else to draw the zombies away, then sneak back over and get it. Right. But I think him being such a douchebag is a factor for sure.

[00:08:42] Or use the damn hacksaw and like hack it, you know, like it's yeah. Yeah. It's hard. And, you know, props to T-Dog. He's the one that goes back like no one else goes back. The rest of them

[00:08:55] just run off. But then when he fell, that's an iconic scene. I'll never forget that the slow mo key going into the thing. And it just made me automatically feel like T-Dog's like a Charlie

[00:09:05] Brown type or something. I love seeing him. I love that character, I should say. So when he said when he tried to take control, Merle, he's like, all right, we're gonna have ourselves a little

[00:09:18] powwow and talk about who's in charge. I vote me. Anybody else? Huh? Democracy time, y'all. When he said that, I was like, oh, that reminds me of the famous line from Rick. This is not

[00:09:28] a democracy. I wondered if the writers had thought back on that or anything. The use of the N-word, I do want to talk about it a little bit. Rick and T-Dog also use it only to chastise Merle

[00:09:42] for using it today. That's unacceptable. Professors have been fired for doing that. I think, I don't know. Yeah, it's a good thing that they wouldn't say it now. But it is something

[00:09:57] that a guy like Merle would say. So there is a part of me that's like, like I've said before on the podcast, let's show how people really are. Let's not shy away from it. But if somebody argued,

[00:10:08] no, I don't want to hear that in any context, I would not argue back. Yeah, I think that's the thing. I think the thing I always come back to with it is like,

[00:10:16] there is never a situation where you need to use that word. Like, there's just not. Like, you can always use a different way of describing what you're trying to say. But with Merle, I agree

[00:10:26] it's a character choice. I think now it would hit even harder if they kept that in the script. But like when Rick repeated it, I was like, Rick, be there. But then I was like, it's fine.

[00:10:37] At the time, I mean, the context that he was coming from, he's saying this is not what we're about anymore. And it bothers me sometimes when people don't take that kind of thing into account.

[00:10:50] But on the other hand, we're clearly in a time now where everyone should know. No, don't do it. Yeah, just don't. There's literally no need. No one in the world needs to. But back then it was a little different. Back then in 2010.

[00:11:05] I know what Rick was trying to say. Look, there's that skin color and all that race and just doesn't matter anymore. Don't even do it. So anyway, he was trying to be against that. But then that whole exchange with Rick brings focus on societal norms having broken down.

[00:11:26] One of the things I like about the idea of an ongoing zombie movie, which is The Walking Dead, is to see if and how societal tendencies could change. And at first it seems like it's kind of

[00:11:38] business as usual for Officer Grimes here, punches Merle, cuffs him. And I love that all these people know each other. Rick's the new guy, but he sees the situation and he puts an end

[00:11:49] to it. And there's a really sweet moment where he looks at Glenn because Glenn's kind of his way into the script. And Glenn sort of shakes his head like, don't get involved. Don't get

[00:11:58] involved. He crazy. And Rick does it anyway, which I really like. Yeah, there's a little connection there. And like as you were alluding to last week, Rick is used to being the authority and

[00:12:08] he's comfortable with this kind of situation. He knows how to handle it. And I was writing in my notes, I argue he's still a hero. He he he's doing the right thing. But then he holds his gun right

[00:12:20] up to Merle's head just because Merle said, screw you. And I'm like, oh yeah, I wouldn't be comfortable seeing a cop do that. And then Merle says, you wouldn't shoot me. You're a cop. And

[00:12:31] Rick goes, all I am anymore is a man looking for his wife and son. Anybody that gets in the way of that is going to lose. And I'm like, holy shit. Rick from the very start had this darkness in him

[00:12:40] where he'll do anything to protect his family. It was there right away and it wasn't nearly as extreme as it gets because he would have pulled the trigger later on. I was going to say season

[00:12:50] four onwards, Merle's getting left on that roof and no one's giving a fuck. He's dead. I mean, Rick shot some dude. I forget who that was giving him gruff and just fucking killed him. Well,

[00:13:03] once we get to that part, because I think it was in like season four or three. Yeah. But and then along the lines of societal norms changing, Rick also encourages Andrea to take this mermaid

[00:13:13] necklace to the mall for her sister. And she's like, would it be considered looting? And I'm like, dude, everyone's dead. Come on. But Rick has that kind of piousness about him still sometimes

[00:13:25] in this episode. I find quite entertaining. You know, we'll come to it, I'm sure. But when he's like giving a little sermon about Wayne Dunlop. Oh yeah, we're going to get to that. Let me just

[00:13:34] finish up real quick on Merle. So this, yeah, when T-Dog throws the key down, he's chained to the roof. I guess all I have to say is that's it for him until season three because they go

[00:13:47] back for him and oh, he has one quick scene. He opens up the next episode. I let it run by accident last night and I was like, oh yeah, we come back to the roof and see Merle freaking out

[00:13:59] and then we see the Zeds starting to come in. Yeah, because I thought that was in this episode and I'm like, oh, I must have misremembered that. But it's next week. Yeah, I am because

[00:14:07] the other thing T-Dog does that is genuinely nice, all things considered, is he chains the door shut so that Merle has a fighting chance. But yeah, because I thought the same as you. And then

[00:14:18] literally I was sitting like doing notes for something and the next episode started and I was like, oh, we're back with Merle, which I'd forgotten because like you, I was like, oh, well,

[00:14:26] that's him until flashbacks in season two when Daryl sees him when he's like falling off his horse down the creek or something. But in real life, we don't see him again until we're three.

[00:14:42] And he comes back as a regular that season and I was glad he came back, but I don't know. We'll talk about that when it happens. I had Merle as a point too, just that he was much worse than I remembered. He's a fucking savage

[00:14:56] way that he beats T-Dog. I hate the racism. I hate the sugar tits stuff with Andrea. I hate how he tries to wheedle T-Dog into giving him the hacksaw and T-Dog just gets the measure of him and he's

[00:15:11] like, yeah, you're going to shoot that cop, aren't you? And Merle's like, no. I used to wish he wasn't in it at all. No, I think it's good having him in it. The discomfort I felt rewatching it was really just

[00:15:24] what a horrible character. Like, he's an awful person and I think Merle's meant to be a horrible person. I don't think he's meant to be a redeemable bad boy or someone who's really

[00:15:34] nice with kids. I think he's just a crap human. I just think he is. But the thing is, here's what I'll say as well. I find the bit where they leave him behind really upsetting as well because my

[00:15:49] empathy goes to Merle in that moment because no one deserves that. No one at this stage in The Walking Dead, by season five, everyone probably deserves it for different reasons. I mean, he came close to deserving it in just those few moments. He's ready to kill somebody

[00:16:06] if they don't just bow down to him. Absolutely. But the desperation in his eyes is just… Rooker's great. He plays that role really, really well and I do. That pain…I don't know how to

[00:16:21] describe the feeling that it gives me when it's this mix of pity and just anguish at what happens when T-Dog drops the key. It's partly because of what T-Dog has to live with with that and partly

[00:16:36] because it's just one of those shit accidents. Because it truly is an accident. He's trying to do a good thing and he ends up doing a worse thing. You just reminded me too because I think

[00:16:47] I always hoped that Merle would come back and that he would confront T-Dog. And then, and we're spoilery here just to remind you guys, T-Dog ended up dying before Merle came back into

[00:17:03] it. There was no reckoning there. And that was a bummer. And that was kind of like what they did with Madison and Alicia in Fear. It's like, come on if you're going to bother bringing him back we

[00:17:14] want to see these confrontations. Yeah. And I was like to myself…I remember when I was watching this the first time I was like…or at least this is what I think I would have thought…I was like

[00:17:25] this must be from the comic because it's kind of an out there thing that he would cut his hand off and stuff like that. I was like oh this must be in the comics. It's not. Merle is a show invention.

[00:17:34] No. Yeah. So interesting. In the comic when Rick goes to Woodbury and meets the governor, I think in the same issue they meet the governor chops Rick's hand off. And Rick is only one-handed.

[00:17:51] That was early on in the comic. So most of what we know of Rick in the comic he only has one hand. And so when they chopped Merle's hand off in the next episode…or Merle chops his hand off…I

[00:18:04] thought oh I wonder if that means they're not going to chop Rick's hand off because that would be weird to have two characters. And it did mean that. I also…the first time I watched the show

[00:18:14] I hadn't watched Arrested Development but there's a whole running gag in Arrested Development about somebody losing a hand and it's very heavily foreshadowed with a lot of comedic stuff. And so I was thinking of that. But I was also thinking of it when Merle stands up and goes

[00:18:27] show of hands and Peter and I burst out laughing because we're like well not for long for Merle. So yeah. Rooker was made to play that role but I don't know what that says about Rooker as a person

[00:18:40] that he's so good at that role. Well not a lot of people know this but he didn't actually have a script. They just said just go be yourself and we'll respond to that. We'll deal with the

[00:18:52] lawsuits and the…what do you call it…anti-social behavior complaints from your castmates. I'm just kidding by the way. That did not happen. It's interesting that I think Norman Reedus auditioned for Merle. I'm like oh wow.

[00:19:07] He could have played it. I don't think Daryl could have come back from what we've just saw. No. And I don't think Rooker could have played Daryl. No. Ew. Can you imagine? Uncomfortable. Yes. So that was one of my points as well. So back to you.

[00:19:22] Well I don't know why don't you do a fresh one. Go for it. I think I have decided that I'm going to track why Andrea is the worst because I feel like as a person since 2010 I've studied a lot. I got my degree. I've thought a lot

[00:19:43] about feminism, women supporting women, intersectional stuff and I'm just like yeah no she's still the fucking worst. I don't want to think that. I want to try and redeem her. This episode did not help. She's genuinely a very irritating character. From the start she's pretty annoying.

[00:20:00] She's so annoying and I just like I'm trying to quantify it. I'm trying to be like why is she the worst? Why is she so annoying? And I don't really have any answers. I think she just comes in

[00:20:11] so hot but isn't cool enough to pull it off. Like she comes in like Michonne comes in pretty hardcore and pretty violent and pretty like you know aggressive. Andrea comes in that way

[00:20:26] and is nowhere near as effective and nowhere near as cool and I just it made me very glad that things went the way they did and they didn't end up doing the straight from the comics Rick and Andrea

[00:20:36] love story. I can see how they're trying even in this episode to set up a connection between the two of them and I just praise the showrunners that that was not the journey that the characters took.

[00:20:48] Well when this episode aired I'm pretty sure Rick and Andrea were not together yet in the comics but… I would need to go and double check. I need to cross check my data.

[00:20:58] Yeah but Rick but Andrea and Dale were together and we always thought that's where it was going and I think that was the plan for the show. I think Dale thought that's where it was going along the way. And Andrea was much younger in the comic too.

[00:21:10] She's 25 in the comics and she's 36-ish here. So yeah we meet her. She is…I feel like quite a poorly written female character just at this stage. I think she's overly overly emotional, overly sappy. I don't know again this is me sounding like a real judgmental cow.

[00:21:33] The scenes with her and Rick with like talking about leaving the safety on and the necklace were a bit more enjoyable. That made sense because if you don't know how to use a gun then you don't know. Yeah and Rick is… I'm okay with that.

[00:21:46] He's showing her kindness there and getting the read of her a little bit. But other bits I just I still don't care much for her and I'm going to be thinking about the reasons why that is and whether I am just

[00:22:01] a women-hating misogynist or if Andrea actually is the worst and if so why. So that's my research project for this rewatch is can Andrea be redeemed? Let's forget about Negan. Let's talk about Andrea. I think we can go ahead and spoil that you're not a misogynist.

[00:22:18] Okay I don't know. Andrea makes me hate women and Laurie makes me think women can't drive. Yeah I mean that's where these sort of trying to push things forward progressively so that marginalized, oppressed and underrepresented groups get their due is so awesome and necessary

[00:22:42] and I'm all for it. But when that sometimes means ignoring something that somebody does because they're part of one of these groups that's fucking annoying. I don't like that because I don't like pretending something's not really the way it is and sometimes

[00:22:55] it's a little squishy and you know you have to talk through it and maybe you'll change your mind about it but I just you know what I mean like and I think with Andrea in particular if

[00:23:05] I remember right when Karen and I covered the series I had I came to her defense sometimes and we had Laurie holding on the podcast a couple times and I talked to her about the reaction to

[00:23:18] her character and everything like that so I don't think it's gonna be like all hate for me on Andrea but this episode I did find her pretty annoying when she comes at Rick right away pointing the

[00:23:28] gun at his head and I thought his reaction seemed a little bit unbelievably calm like huh what did I do something wrong and then later you find out that the safety was on so then it makes a little more sense.

[00:23:40] Yeah I liked that nod as well because I was like oh I'd be raging but yeah I think for me it's going to be about unpacking why she's irritating because I like one of the things to say I felt

[00:23:52] massively for Laurie Holden that she had such a shit reception as that character you know no kind of empathy from the audience in any sort of meaningful way you know she was written off

[00:24:02] the show she came on with Darabont Darabont left she was supposed to have the arc I mean she said that in one of her eggs interviews she's like I was supposed to go the whole way I was supposed

[00:24:10] to get to Alexandria I was supposed to be with Rick and none of that happened kudos to the show for cutting her loose when it wasn't working but I just I don't know it just didn't quite hit in

[00:24:23] in the way that it should with Andrea's character I just yeah we'll see I'm sure there will be moments where she's better and moments where she's worse but I just was reminded that watching her is not one of my enjoyable activities.

[00:24:37] Yeah for me like I loved the comic I was a fan of the comic for years before the show ever came on that's why I wanted to do a podcast about the show because I love the comic and Andrea was my

[00:24:51] favorite character in the comics she's even more than Rick and so that was part of why I was like what you're not from Andrea from the comics so it was harder to stand up for this character

[00:25:08] and like her when it's somebody you know they're kind of and ultimately I think the character I wanted. Darabont for better or worse brought with him a cast of people he liked yeah um Laurie Holden was one of them and she didn't quite fit

[00:25:24] what Andrea was in the comics which is a younger you know women are better when they're younger no I'm joking. No but she was also kind of just uh calm about things and and um had her shit together you know in the

[00:25:38] more than most of the other characters. Yeah whereas they bring her in as this kind of hysterical yeah mid-30s woman and I'm just like sure it feels and maybe it's just to have a better contrast to

[00:25:50] Laurie I don't know I don't know it's strange I mean we'll see where it ends up but well we know where it ends up. I mean little known but they just told Laurie Holden to just go in and be herself she didn't actually have a script

[00:26:01] but uh also like you know I hope she's doing better things than listening to this rewatch but if you are Laurie it's not about you.

[00:26:09] No no I honestly like if you want to go like I said go to podcastguy.com search up Laurie Holden I think we did two or three interviews and I enjoyed talking to her on the podcast and I've done panels with her I enjoyed talking to her on the panels too I felt like we had some kind of a connection that I didn't quite have with everybody else so

[00:26:30] I like her I mean but they kept giving Andrea like they had her shoot Daryl like that's not gonna make your character people like your character if you have them shoot Daryl.

[00:26:42] Like I cracked up when Glenn was like I need someone to come with me and Andrea's like I could he's like not you and I'm like oh Glenn speaking for the whole audience there just like no not you like him not you.

[00:26:53] They had her like shack up with the governor ignore a bunch of red flags and just all kinds of stuff you know. Shagging Shane in the Hyundai. And leave that fucking knife with Beth when she was suicidal that was my least favorite thing Andrea ever did.

[00:27:08] I hate Andrea I just. That's not Laurie Holden's fault. I hate her. That's not Laurie Holden's fault I don't think.

[00:27:17] I honestly think she's poorly written I think generally the show is strong but I will die on the hill that particularly in season one women are quite badly written. I think it's only in later seasons that they get more to go with.

[00:27:29] Yeah I mean and also maybe I mean I don't know if I'm believing this as I'm saying it but I always say you need flawed characters and she's one. She's I mean for sure she is one on that list. All right how about you?

[00:27:43] Anything else yeah okay comic stuff. So early on we were especially focused on how the show compared to the comic because we didn't have the show in our hearts yet. We had the comic in our hearts at least us comic fans did.

[00:28:00] Were you a comic fan before you started watching the show? No I got into the comics about I remember reading Glenn's death life that would have been about 2013. So around about then I went back and started reading them all.

[00:28:15] I mean I was reading it from 2004 you know for six years. It was my favorite comic and so I was like I'm gonna bring my comic to life.

[00:28:24] So then I remember seeing this first shot with Dale on top of the RV with his floppy hat and the camera pans through the camp to Jim with his beard and his baseball hat.

[00:28:34] Amy talking to Lori and little Carl playing with his truck and it all just looked right out of the comic and it was super thrilling. And if you weren't a fan of the comic it was just some people in a camp. It didn't matter.

[00:28:44] Yeah if you weren't a fan of the comic you're like they're camping. Okay fine. And I'm like oh my god there's Dale on his RV that's so cool. And then and Glenn he stepped right out of the page of the comic literally it felt like.

[00:29:01] And I'd say the ones who felt most straight out of the comic from this episode were Glenn, Carl and this guy Jim who's barely in the show. He wasn't really in the comic that much either but I'd say second tier Amy, Dale and Lori.

[00:29:16] You know they're pretty close. And then the least are as we said Andrea probably Shane and Rick not really. And then the people not even in the comic you mentioned Morales also Merle. And Darryl.

[00:29:32] And yeah Darryl although he wasn't in this episode but yeah T-Dog was not in the comic and neither was Jackie. There was a lot of speculation that T-Dog was a revamped Tyrese. Then Tyrese turns up in season 4. Tyrese Dog. Tyrese surname Dog.

[00:29:49] T-Dog I mean okay maybe you could have the nickname T-Dog when you're hanging out with your buddies but in the zombie apocalypse you go back to Theo not T-Dog. I think so. There is a little bit of like…

[00:30:05] Have they written him as a bit of a caricature in this episode? I'm a little bit like really? He's the racial tensions guy but I mean okay I don't know. I like I love him so much and I like the character of T-Dog too.

[00:30:17] Irony does so much with that character and you see I was one of the things I noticed with this. We find out later that T-Dog is he was driving a church van like he's inherently a really good guy

[00:30:28] and I think the fact that he does go back for Merle speaks to that and that's a kind of nice character beat there. Even in this he's like try a little positivity. I enjoyed him in this. Yeah.

[00:30:41] And last with the comics so we see Laurie and Shane getting it on in the grass and I was thinking I think I said this last week but Shane and Laurie knew that Rick was alive

[00:30:52] in the comic so it felt it was cheating they were cheating they knew it. Here Laurie thinks Rick is dead and I think that's what Shane told her so she doesn't think

[00:31:02] she's cheating but it does seem a little soon to be that excited about you know and I'm I feel judgmental saying that maybe some people don't agree and that's that's fine but that's how I

[00:31:17] felt like yeah I mean I guess we've we've seen that Laurie and Rick were having problems and I mean that does it does make me feel like that they're that excited that they were maybe already having an affair.

[00:31:29] Yeah I have thoughts about this because trigger warning for sexual assault because I'm going to talk about it I'm going to mention rape here. Rape by deception is a situation in which the perpetrator deceives the victim into participating

[00:31:44] in a sexual act to which they would otherwise not have consented had they not been deceived. Yeah happens in cults a lot. So Shane not coming out of this great because he has lied to Laurie and I don't I think if

[00:31:58] if she knew he if she knew Rick was alive we don't know she would have made the same decision. And absolutely I agree with you 100%. Bad like Shane's coming out of this rewatch worse than I remembered I think I'm feeling very like

[00:32:12] because I loved Jon Bernthal so much as an actor and I've been loving the bear I was like oh great Shane but these first two episodes I'm like oh my god problematic toxic man like awful.

[00:32:23] And then he does assault her physically in the CDC at the end of this. I wasn't I'm not I'm just gonna put this out there I wouldn't be super jazzed if someone

[00:32:34] jumped me from behind in the woods covered my mouth and said don't scream like I'm a bit like. A lot of women dig that kind of stuff though. Jason's like in my experience that's actually my top move.

[00:32:48] You know I think they're saying yes it's hard to hear but. Oh god you know you're just like oh. And no awful awful terrible behavior terrible behavior from Shane they make it clear to be absolutely crystal clear there is no doubt in my mind that Laurie is consenting

[00:33:07] to have sex with Shane in this episode he is not assaulting her in this episode however. But she doesn't know her husband. The overall situation is deceptive and the way he goes about it is very foolhardy and borderline toxic with the way he approaches things.

[00:33:24] But Shane is clearly living out some kind of fantasy that he's wanted for a long time of having Rick's life and his wife and his kid doesn't excuse it makes it a bit creepier if I'm honest.

[00:33:37] And I think I was going to ask you about this I think sex scenes got less graphic in The Walking Dead this feels like one of the more graphic sex scenes that they have. Yeah there was Abraham and Rosita later on I think that was. With Eugene watching.

[00:33:50] Whoa yeah. Yeah yeah that was but generally speaking I was like holy crap this is quite quite a lot. And I mean personally I think it's crazy that we're okay seeing people's heads chopped off but get sexual and everyone gets all uptight about it so.

[00:34:06] Yeah I mean I would like to point out hopefully not uptight about it just concerned about Laurie in this moment because it's uncomfortable knowing what we know and they do this big

[00:34:18] deal of like Rick's ring and like putting it to the side and like flipping her over so that they're not looking at each other which is something they spoke about at a Walker Stalker panel because I remember Sarah Wayne Calley's being like oh no we don't have

[00:34:30] to talk about that. And it's like. That was me I brought it up I asked them something about yeah how you flipped her over or something and he started smiling and she seemed uncomfortable and I was like oh crap I feel I feel bad about

[00:34:44] the way this is going right now. It was well received by the audience. It was but I was like oh I didn't want I could tell she was uncomfortable and I'm like

[00:34:52] oh no I don't I don't like this I should have framed in a different way but yeah John Bernthal was being his little impish self. Yeah. I don't want to say it seemed like they ended up everybody had fun with it but I could tell

[00:35:05] she wasn't totally comfortable with it so I felt bad yeah. It's a good acting decision though I think it makes sense and I think it is soon. I think I was thinking about that today because I was thinking about the fact that like all

[00:35:16] these women like we see Andrea do it we see Laurie do it have unprotected sex in the apocalypse like it's until Maggie and Glenn we don't really hear anyone talking about contraception at all and I was like that seems reckless because then they're all freaking surprised

[00:35:31] you know Laurie's like oh my god they're pregnant I'm like yeah no die like you're not old like obviously that's yeah and this is where we're seeing Judith get made yeah I'm like little ass kicker but it does make me wonder if like when you're in that much

[00:35:48] stress and panic do you just go into survival mode and you're just like fuck it we might be dead tomorrow like is that is that where your mind is at like I don't know it was it gave me much to think about. No excuse.

[00:36:01] Yeah it yeah um it also seemed to me like people at the camp knew they were at it like Amy had a bit of a look on her face when Laurie sort of wandered off.

[00:36:11] And I don't yeah I don't think they're being too they're not trying to hide that they're together. No so yeah Laurie and Shane was one of my points kind of the stuff at the camp they

[00:36:21] seem to be quite the duo he's getting close to Carl she seems happy with that he's being a son of a bitch to Amy and she's going off to kind of do the emotional labor of making

[00:36:30] everything okay much like some stereotypical gender roles and uh yeah it's it's interesting to see Shane is kind of like Daryl does in later seasons coming into his own as this like leader father figure and Rick's about to turn up and kind of fuck all that up for

[00:36:46] him which I think is the start of really dark Shane so it was nice to check in with the camp. He he's but I don't know if I would use that word coming into his own because that implies it's healthy and it doesn't feel healthy. Yeah.

[00:37:01] He's a dick. No he didn't I would say high on his own supply. He's taking charge for sure but he's kind of cocky and just dickish about the whole thing you know he's trying to protect people but you're right he lied to Laurie about Rick so.

[00:37:19] And like if I was being devil's advocate which is a position I don't love um I would say by lying to Laurie he enabled her to let him take her to safety like he had he had

[00:37:31] many reasons to believe that Rick would die but he didn't know it for a fact so he shouldn't have said that that was just wrong. I mean especially if he's gonna sleep with her. Yeah. You know. Yeah.

[00:37:45] Yeah but you're right though I mean it's because she's ready to go charging and try to save him but you know I mean they probably what he should have done is said Rick is alive

[00:38:00] or Rick Rick was alive when I last saw him and if you want to go try to find out if he's still alive we let's get some people together and do it right you know. Whereas instead he's happy to run with he's dead.

[00:38:14] Yeah exactly yeah and that's not good okay I'm gonna talk about just different things about the zombies. Amazing yes I've got a list about that too. So Morgan was the first to call them walkers last week and Glenn calls them geeks in their

[00:38:32] group except when he first says it to Rick in the tank over the radio you're surrounded by walkers he says so now Glenn's calling them walkers too even though he doesn't know

[00:38:44] Morgan yet so usually from here on out whenever they find a new group that group has a different name for the zeds biters infected skin bags rotters empties and my favorite the dead which

[00:38:58] I think a lot of people would say yeah empties from world beyond seems like Glenn's group is geeks in the comics they're called roamers lookers and even zombies and the dead too but

[00:39:10] then later when the show started calling them walkers I think they started doing that in the comics too or maybe that was in the game I can't maybe I'm wrong about that anyway we call them

[00:39:18] zeds the term zeds came because Karen and I thought we were clever calling listeners undead heads and then that kind of morphed into zed heads and then the zombies became the zeds I guess

[00:39:30] oh so that's just a little thing about the naming I think it's a bit of a flub actually to have Glenn refer to them as walkers without having had any contact with Morgan because that doesn't

[00:39:44] seem like the first thing you would think of necessarily but whatever I would love to see a flashback to like him delivering a pizza to Morgan or something in the early days

[00:39:57] you see them walkers that's a cool name for them yeah I like that that's right so since you have zombie stuff why don't we because I have more points but we'll we can just like go back and

[00:40:06] forth about the zombies right I loved the zed that Rick hits on his way out of the tank we get a really good view of his face his cheek is sort of sliced open um the detail on the zeds in this

[00:40:20] episode in the last one is much more fine like there's I think it's because they're all freshly turned um but there's a lot of really cool details on the sort of featured zeds that I enjoyed

[00:40:31] and that sort of face slash um whole thing really tickled me I thought that was fantastic yeah I love that and right when he gets out of the tank and you start shooting them

[00:40:44] and you hear them they're kind of moaning I did not remember that because I've always just sort of been critical and I still am though one of my least favorite things about The Walking Dead is

[00:40:54] it changed the way we think of the zombie sound they used to moan and now they go like this they're just like whispery growls with no voice in there and through the rest of this episode they do growl

[00:41:06] but their voices often come through sometimes they even the one in the sewer sounded almost otherworldly but um he was cool that was a cool reveal I'm gonna play a little bit of right after

[00:41:17] Rick shoots and if you listen you can be in between the gunshots you can hear the zombies vocalizing a little bit like right there see you here moaning a little bit

[00:41:45] like that um I feel like that's just another way that season one had the more I never thought about it this way until The Walking Dead but a little bit more humanized zombies a little closer to

[00:41:59] human and with the way Morgan's wife was and and the way they're smarter and they can climb fences and stuff and then over pretty quickly after this I think they decided to make them more like pests

[00:42:12] and they took away their voices and they made them less smart and they made them feel more disposable and I think that was on purpose because they knew that the characters were going to be killing them

[00:42:22] a lot and probably didn't want it to feel like they were killing people that had any of their humanity left but it also takes away some of the power of the what makes a zombie movie great is

[00:42:32] the tragedy of it and when there it doesn't feel like a tragedy anymore because it's just like killing a spider oh I know some people hate that too but anyway then um it takes away the

[00:42:43] little bit of the power of it and oh and just to show that at this time before The Walking Dead came on people thought of zombie sounds as moaning and not whispering or like that I would

[00:42:58] ask when we had The Walking Dead actors on for them to do their zombie sounds yes and uh here's Stephen Young so he thought of it as moaning and here's Andrew Lincoln's

[00:43:22] so it just kind of shows even the actors on the show thought of it differently back then now if you ask somebody especially if they're a Walking Dead fan to do a zombie sound they'll go like that

[00:43:31] that's so funny I hadn't really thought of that in fact I was going to play this during the um listener feedback section but I'll play it now just to illustrate the point and

[00:43:41] this is no shade uh Colin and his I think seven-year-old son called him with some zombie sounds because I asked the listeners to call in zombie sounds so we could put him in there

[00:43:49] and so this is great I'm glad you did the great zombie sounds for The Walking Dead but just shows how the perception of the zombie sound has changed here's Colin and his son here's my zombie noise and here's my son

[00:44:10] that's so good they're so good I know I love it you guys your son I think even had a better one Colin but you were good too but you see what I mean like it's not the moaning anymore

[00:44:24] mm-hmm fantastic though send in more noises everyone those were great yeah um okay my next point about zeds can zeds climb ladders I mean they can climb chain link fences you'd think they'd be able to climb ladders because Glenn looks down when they're about to ascend the ladder

[00:44:44] and says like uh-oh um because there is a zed starting to climb we don't see it climb any further it seems like there's maybe a cut scene there um but yeah he he is concerned that they

[00:44:55] will be able to so interesting that that is a threat at that point or thought to be a threat yeah I mean remember last week when we were talking about how I thought maybe the variants

[00:45:10] that showed up later in The Walking Dead that these were also variants like that and so I looked up the dialogue I was thinking of in that episode at season 11 episode 19 variant when we

[00:45:23] first met the variants and um someone said to Aaron how did how did a walker do that what do you think it was like an aberration or something and Aaron said well there's roamers and lurkers

[00:45:35] I mean we've all seen some that come back to the places that they remember I've heard stories about walkers like this that can climb walls and open doors I was never sure if they were just stories

[00:45:47] so I think they put that in there because they remembered that the walkers were different at first and it seemed like an error but they wanted to retcon it and make it all canon you know Aaron's

[00:45:59] like I watched a show once where yeah sure they could open the door there was like some guy and his wife I think yeah they were cheating yeah it was strange there was this racist on a roof

[00:46:13] mm-hmm so I do think at this point the idea was that they were more agile and capable and that Glenn was right to be worried about that but if starting probably next season they got dumber and less capable they most certainly did and that's another sort of

[00:46:34] stripping them of their humanity a little bit I say zombies have rights no I'm just kidding but um it just makes the hashtag not all zombies seem less human you know and less of a thread and

[00:46:46] less interesting and less um tragic and yeah I don't know I guess I'm really coming down to realize that because because as I'm watching it now I'm also I thought that I felt less whenever

[00:47:01] there was a zombie scene on The Walking Dead just because we were used to it and we were desensitized and I think that is somewhat of a factor but I'm realizing it was it's also just because of

[00:47:11] all this stuff I'm talking about now because when I'm watching this episode and I see Rick and uh Glenn underneath the truck and the zombies are shambling by it feel it still feels like

[00:47:24] scarier because of the way the zombies are more human I think I would agree with that I guess anything else about them uh they can smash doors with bricks yep so that's cool good

[00:47:41] yeah that's good they can't do that anymore except the variants and it's established in this episode that they are drawn to sound which they kept for the rest of the series and um we've they draw

[00:47:58] we see Glenn and Rick draw them away with sirens which we've seen I think Luke didn't he draw them away with music in season 10 or something yep they do that a lot I think Eugene did it in his

[00:48:10] van one time um it's established that of course they don't bother you if you smell dead which is how they figured out the guts thing and they kind of just intellectualized that like here's

[00:48:23] a theory and they tried it out and it worked uh I think it's crazy they brought something like that in so early but it followed the comic and um people figured it out independently elsewhere

[00:48:34] like in fear of the walking dead nick used to do it just for fun just for kids go out among the zombies and it's sort of the same concept with the whispers but that makes me wonder if the whisper

[00:48:45] mask the skins if it's smell-based do they always have to smell bad which this makes it even grosser to be wearing that yeah face mask of it proper grim um the guts looked amazing the whole walking scene was incredible it just felt so claustrophobic and

[00:49:04] um scary tense love that glenn barfed this is a very human moment I was like people threw up more this early on I feel yeah I think it was a little ridiculous that they had to chop

[00:49:18] up that guy so much they were really leaning into the horrificness of it because his stomach was already open just reach in there and pull some out right you know they were just they were really

[00:49:30] enjoying it I feel yeah they were getting into it so what about you know rick's how he handled that wayne dunlop and his pretty girl um I honestly find rick quite annoying in that scene like he's

[00:49:44] so pious he's like this man wayne dunlop he had 28 dollars in his pocket and a picture of a pretty girl and I'm like yeah we get it like it's it is funny though it's iconic but I think my favorite

[00:49:55] bit is he's like if I ever meet my wife and child again which he's gonna do in about two hours he's like I will tell them about wayne dunlop does he fuck like never mentioned him again literally

[00:50:07] never mentioned like wayne dunlop you know what a sacrifice man that's funny I loved it I thought yeah you're new in this world and you I just it's a sign that he doesn't want to forget that these

[00:50:24] used to be real people you know I know there's something really good hearted about that that I love it's a great bit of physical acting from Andrew Lincoln as well where he kind of goes to

[00:50:34] swing and then sort of slides back almost moonwalks back he's like no no we're gonna do this right we're gonna do this right yep gotta yeah I don't feel good about this yet and he

[00:50:44] just wants to pay respect to this person what was once a person and I very very much admire that impulse and I think it's great that he's so the opposite of that as the series progresses

[00:50:56] and it makes sense that you would get desensitized to the zombies if you were in this world you you couldn't let yourself feel this much about them every time when you had to kill so many it

[00:51:07] would just kill you it's like I think it's like soldiers in war I've never been in a war but just from what I've read and heard they have to start thinking of their enemy as not human or just you

[00:51:16] know I think as well it is about Rick establishing the tone like he's seen how lawless it is with Merle and it's seen how you know there's not really a cohesive kind of way of doing things

[00:51:32] like the group aren't together and I think this is him sort of setting the tone of like respect and lawfulness because I know what he says about you know I'm only a man trying to get back

[00:51:43] to his wife and kids but this is a Rick that still claimed civilization in many ways and I think this is this is very much about him establishing that as well and saying like no we're gonna do things

[00:51:53] right we're gonna do it polite you know yeah I get I don't necessarily see it that way as far as establishing a lawfulness but I do see it as him when you're doing something like this it is sort

[00:52:07] of like saying okay kids let me make sure that we're doing this right like he's putting himself in an authority position you know as the person who needs to be the one to show everyone else

[00:52:21] a teacher moment yeah and that could be seen as arrogant or something I can see that I don't know if that's what you're getting at but I don't know yeah I think it's just one of

[00:52:31] those things it's like all right I think it is that thing where when you know how different it becomes you're like okay but it's almost like a substitute teacher coming in and laying down the

[00:52:40] law of like right this is how we do things in my classroom and will it work who knows yeah if it was me and I was in that group and somebody did that I think I'd be like oh my god thank god this

[00:52:50] guy seems like a great leader and he's compassionate but he's doing what needs to be done like I would follow him you know that's I think how I would feel like thank god there's somebody like this

[00:53:01] here yeah I mean it was this or Merle like you know yeah exactly right and and I mean but to be fair Glenn is in there being a leader when it's time to go down to the sewer I don't want anyone

[00:53:13] else coming with me you go here you go here and he's got all the tactics down and it's very like I remembered Glenn as being more a little bit more comic relief and he is funnier here in early

[00:53:25] seasons than he ever was later on but he's also a leader from the start and um I did the I think the one time where I felt a little bit negatively towards uh Rick is after Glenn lays it all out

[00:53:38] like here's what we need to do he kind of pats him on the head almost like okay we all have our jobs buddy you know like yeah what the fuck was that all about okay kiddo yeah he's like he's smart you

[00:53:49] shut up I felt very sad when Glenn was like I hope you know maybe I hope that one day someone will put their neck on the line for me and I'm like oh I mean they do Glenn but also you deserve

[00:54:00] better you just deserved better anyway yeah that's my Glenn grief for the week um and just a couple other things about well one other thing about the zombies Rick says as they're doing the whole guts

[00:54:16] thing don't get any on your skin or in your eyes and that made me wonder if the writers had that in mind when Gabriel got sick after doing the guts thing and maybe he got some I think he did

[00:54:27] get some in his eyes I don't know yes he did I think he got a lot of poop in his eyes so what's next Glenn shaking his head at Rick I just loved how Glenn walked off the page and onto

[00:54:42] the screen I'd forgotten his kind of chat about um Clint Eastwood and his sort of exasperation with with Rick when he's trying to get him out of the tank uh and that iconic scene the inverse of Rick

[00:54:56] going into the city is Glenn bursting out in the red Dodge Challenger I want to say is that right yeah love it I always thought it was so I don't know when he gets back to the camp next episode

[00:55:07] everyone's like for fuck's sake Glenn and I'm like oh he just had his moment his hero moment but yeah it was pretty noisy I guess yeah no that's like and it's like Glenn he establishes

[00:55:20] his character right away he isn't afraid to say what he thinks like he's not trying to please anyone he'll call Rick a dumbass which is respectable like you know that he's honest you

[00:55:34] know but he's also heroic he'll go down into the sewer even though they kind of volunteered him which foreshadows him going down in the well for the well's ambience he's too he's like okay fine

[00:55:44] and I don't want you coming with me and he knows he knows his shit he yeah like you said he said he helped Rick because he wanted he hopes that someone would do the same for him someday it

[00:55:55] just shows right away that he's a good person and yeah that's why he's one of my favorite characters in the comics and the show and both the first and the second episode the first one

[00:56:07] being especially bleak ends on an upbeat note that has to do with Glenn hey you and the tank and this one ends on an up beat note with Glenn in the red Dodge Charger going woo so at least for

[00:56:17] now we're associating Glenn with all these good things later he knifes people in their sleep that wasn't so nice but um mostly it's good you know it is it really is he's yeah he's just the

[00:56:31] best I guess what I'm trying to say we love him invincible's back as well I've not watched it next week I think it's in the next week so okay yeah I'm in a young frame of mind

[00:56:41] yeah if you didn't know uh Robert Kirkman also wrote a comic called Invincible that was made into an animated series on Amazon Prime in the US and uh same as you can plays the main character

[00:56:56] invincible and it's very gory but it's a great show and it makes me so happy that Stephen Young still does it um like it's not bad feeling between him and Kirkman or anything like that um

[00:57:09] because he was no I think more because of the way Stephen Young talks about the show sometimes now like he's trying to cast the walking dead behind I know he was like he was psyched for Glenn's death

[00:57:18] originally I remember someone asked him about it and he was like yeah um but it felt a bit like maybe something had soured with the show overall whereas this there's quite a few Walking Dead cast

[00:57:27] members that guest voice on it so yeah no it's great it's worth watching yeah and I gotta say I just love this uh exchange between Rick when he's in the tank and Glenn where are you outside

[00:57:40] can you see me right now yeah I can see you you're surrounded by walkers that's the bad news there's good news no listen whoever you are I don't mind telling you I'm a little concerned in

[00:57:50] here oh man you should see it from over here you'd be having a major freak out yeah it's so funny he's great he's so great and this is like Rick being like what's your name and him being like

[00:58:02] we don't have time for this shit get out like it's yeah yeah and he has a bit more of an attitude in these first couple episodes than I think he did later on I feel like they hadn't I don't know

[00:58:13] if that came from the comic I can't remember I think it might have I think there's quite a lot of dialogue in this because originally this is this whole episode is just in the comic it's just

[00:58:21] Rick and Glenn escaping but they kind of introduced some of the other characters earlier because it's a really short season so yeah yeah yeah because they would sometimes take stuff from the comic

[00:58:35] and do it in the show but then find a new way with the character like with Maggie she comes in and she's propositioning Glenn for sex right away I'll sleep with you or I'll have sex with

[00:58:46] you and that to me doesn't really seem like how Maggie would be knowing her character now you know yeah I don't think you never saw her do that with anybody else not saying any judgment about it just

[00:58:59] seems different than how she was later but that's what she did in the comic so I think that's why they had her do it in the show so I have let's see two more quick points one is

[00:59:11] Department of Suspension of Disbelief I find it a little not believable that they would be scavenging in the middle of a big city because especially this early on the city's super dangerous as you can see here you know that is a really good point actually because like what

[00:59:31] the hell do you buy from department stores that you're going to need in this you know you want food water that's all big box stores that's the outskirts of town right and even if there was food

[00:59:40] in the city there's walkers are most dangerous in big numbers and that they're in the biggest numbers probably in the cities so I would yeah go to the suburbs before you go urban but you know

[00:59:53] that's just a nitpick it's dumb I mean we need adventure and stuff and I think that's a really it's a little bit suspension of disbelief that the radio and this tank would work and that Glenn

[01:00:07] could call into it somehow like why why would he be able to that actually yeah it's a good question Rick didn't have to hit that zed so many times with his axe but it was fun uh t-dog already mentioned

[01:00:24] just go by Theo and not having to suspend disbelief though is that they try to contact the others on their radio and can't get through because it's not fear the walking dead so

[01:00:41] and then last I wanted to you know continue on talking a little bit about my personal experience with some of these guys just go through it quickly but Chandler Riggs we had on the podcast early

[01:00:51] it was probably a little too early he was very young he was also on the phone in the back of his car and he couldn't hear us very well so it was tough to communicate Karen was much better with him

[01:01:02] than I was like they started talking about video games and stuff as he grew older and got more sophisticated I wanted to get him back on but his parents said no and I wondered if that they didn't

[01:01:14] love that interview you can go back and listen to it though I think it was okay but um I did do several panels with him and he was very thoughtful and soft-spoken good-natured guy nice guy

[01:01:26] talented he does yeah DJing and music and stuff uh we had Jeffrey Dimon on I got the timing wrong with him because I didn't realize he was still in Atlanta and he was a bit annoyed with me but when

[01:01:40] he heard how apologetic I was he totally came around and we became friends so that was good you didn't realize he was still in Atlanta how'd you yeah because they weren't filming so when when

[01:01:50] I interviewed him I for some reason assumed he was in LA and we were in the same time zone so so we had to reschedule the interview even though he had been ready to talk to me

[01:02:03] oh bless yeah so so I had to overcome that but I think it actually ended up making us feel more um connected because we had to I was like oh I'm so sorry man uh I did a great panel with him and

[01:02:16] Lori Holden once where they went into some detail about being mad I think it was about being mad about how AMC treated Darabont or and and I think that's maybe where you were saying earlier she

[01:02:27] talked about what was going to happen with her character because oh yeah it was also about being mad about how they treated her because she and Glenn Mazzara did not get along and he's the one

[01:02:38] who killed her off and then Gimple came in and redid her ending so it was better the way she liked it but anyways that panel got into the news like most of my panels didn't but that one did and

[01:02:51] so people read about it a lot because she was saying a lot of things that she hadn't said before I did a panel in Boston with Emma Bell who played Amy and I kind of had a crush on her after that we

[01:03:05] really clicked she was super fun and I talked to her a lot about Dallas because she was on this Dallas um revival where Larry Hagman came back and played J.R. Ewing and um I have a picture of

[01:03:19] her and me where it looks like we're boyfriend and girlfriend it was an accident but she was like on my shoulder she's really nice really nice she probably had no clue I what's she doing now

[01:03:31] Emma Bell I don't know I wonder google her she was great I really liked her as Amy I she's one of those people I was like oh she'll go off and do yeah bigger better things um but I don't know

[01:03:43] I couldn't name anything else she's been in Irony Singleton too I wanted to see more from him and I think he thought he would have more of a career and was surprised he didn't get much else but

[01:03:53] I thought he was great as T-Doc didn't he he wrote a book or something right yeah I think so oh Emma Bell had signed on to a series regular in Dallas the remake that's what

[01:04:05] I just said yeah you did just say that yeah yeah she was also with in a film with Dan Fogler there you go yeah I remember because I was like we were in Boston in this great hall that looked

[01:04:17] like a greenhouse and it was packed with people and I said okay if you guys want to ask questions just line up and nobody lined up and so I asked her all my Walking Dead questions and then I was

[01:04:29] like well I'm I'm a huge fan of Dallas I don't know if you guys are but I'm going to talk about Dallas so I just started talking with her about Dallas it seems like she's had uh she's been

[01:04:40] she's been busy she just hasn't had a big thing would be my summary like there's no gaps on the CV so then Sarah Wayne Cowleys she always seemed a little distant uh at conventions and the time I

[01:04:55] interviewed her on the podcast she was good but just seemed a little distant then one time I was in London backstage with her and I started gushing about that show Colony that she did with Josh

[01:05:06] Holloway and it was just starting and she was very flattered and all of a sudden like she opened up and oh you like it yeah I love it and it was uh not out in the UK yet so we didn't really talk

[01:05:19] about it much on stage but I ended I did end up talking about a little bit just like if it comes here you guys should watch it it was good I liked Colony yeah uh Irony Singleton was I did

[01:05:30] many panels with him he was always just a joy very emotionally open and he cried on a lot of panels and he always blamed me I was like I'm not doing it but uh he was just such a great guy I one time

[01:05:46] I asked him can you show me if you had become a zombie what your zombie walk would have looked like and he didn't want to do it and then he got an idea and got up and started doing the Michael

[01:05:55] Jackson thriller dance oh that was legend and then I can't go without mentioning Rooker I've done several panels with him he's scary he's unpredictable he he's fun too he'd ignore me he'd make fun of me he'd sometimes have fun telling stories with me sometimes he'd just go

[01:06:17] off into the crowd with his mic and just talk to people directly he'd do that a lot actually uh one time we had this baseball stadium as our backdrop in San Diego Petco Park

[01:06:27] and me and Mr. Blog Eric got him telling stories about his whole career because he has this long career like uh Days of Thunder with Tom Cruise and Henry Portrait of a Serial Killer and so then

[01:06:38] he really started getting into talking about stories about his career that was amazing uh one time he wanted me to do a stunt demo on stage and he ended up punching me in the stomach pretty

[01:06:48] hard oh my god but he um he's different from Merle but not entirely different but uh then one of the funniest story things I always think about is I was in London to do a panel with him

[01:07:03] and this woman who was like a geek press woman I asked her to do the panel with me and she'd never done a panel with him before and I told her look you have all these questions written down

[01:07:15] that's great but just be ready you may not ask any of those he might just ignore us the whole time he may tease you just got to be ready for anything and roll with it because it's really fun and the

[01:07:24] audience loves it and she's like okay and then he's he sat there and just was polite and answered every one of her questions and I think she thought I was fucking with her or something and I'm like

[01:07:35] I don't know what to say uh okay any notes yes long live Jackie although Jackie will not live long um city planners who knew that was a place I'd forgotten about Jackie and Jim um I'm going to be

[01:07:53] rooting for them this season I don't know Jim was always a bit of a I don't know like a depressed skinny man but it was nice to see them again because they were kind of big parts of the

[01:08:02] scene well not big parts but you know they were part of the fabric of the show at this point why would you be rooting for them you're are you a masochist they're gonna die soon

[01:08:11] I know but I just want to enjoy them while they're here yeah especially Jackie you know with your like blueprints um I enjoyed officer friendly um great great line there um really annoyed that Glenn and Rick didn't close the gate behind them when they went down the alley

[01:08:26] that seemed really dumb um I really liked that Amy called Shane a son of a bitch she's my sister you son of a bitch I was like yeah quite fucking right um I have my IMDB dive um it's not that a

[01:08:40] lot of it we've actually spoken about um you know how sometimes IMDB is just like people say things that happen in the episode that was some of it um so the IMDB dive mentions uh this was the lowest

[01:08:52] rated in the season in terms of viewers it only had 4.7 million when it aired which is funny because I think now that's good numbers for oh yeah a network show I think fear gets less than

[01:09:02] a million per episode I think oh my god and how many of that is us hate watching it um the zombie with the rocks gets mentioned as being potentially a continuity error

[01:09:12] um apparently the SWAT squad were called for uh a sniper alert when Rooker was firing the gun off the roof of the building um and had to be told that they were actually filming so it was safe

[01:09:24] they thought it might be an actual it's just Michael Rooker and they're like we know him and then they doubled down and said bring another helicopter as I mentioned earlier uh there are more people in the department store than in the comic because they wanted to introduce

[01:09:39] characters earlier because it's a six episode season yeah there is a musician called Craig Wilde or Craig Baginski who appears as a zombie in this who apparently has been a zombie at least

[01:09:51] four times in television so if any fans uh shout out when I was uh an extra I found out from some of the other extras that if you were featured too much which meant you get more makeup because

[01:10:06] you're going to be more visible then they might stop using you after a while because you'd be too recognizable. Recognizable, that kind of makes sense doesn't it? Yeah you don't want to see the same zombie. We already killed this guy.

[01:10:20] Robert Kirkman established that Zeds don't attack each other um because of the smell um interesting given what we just saw in Daryl Dixon. Yeah but I can excuse that because he was all amped up on something. Yeah well that's why I

[01:10:33] think it's interesting because they're clearly giving them they're giving them something that overrides their natural yeah proclivities um the department store is called Bradbury's which may be a reference to Ray Bradbury the science fiction writer um and Merle makes a reference to being

[01:10:50] Sunny Sunshine which is actually a reference to an African-American child actor um so possibly another bit of a racial a little bit of racism there just some casual racism from Merle um and

[01:11:02] for my apocalypse timeline we are plus 60 days into the apocalypse um all of this happens on the same day in which Rick has a shower with Morgan and Dwayne at the police station in the morning

[01:11:14] so he's had a hell of a day. Oh yeah. I thought that was quite interesting I was like oh how nasty to have gone from like I've had a shower I feel human to like I'm covered in guts and I've sweated

[01:11:27] you go back and back to that shower. So only day 60 we only see one day in this episode yeah so yeah I mean it makes sense he rides into Atlanta and gets trapped and has to make himself or make

[01:11:40] his way out all while the sun's still out. Oh that was the point that annoyed me this is my other note like nobody nobody thinking it's gonna rain the thunder is coming there the lightning and they're

[01:11:55] all just like oh yeah it's raining oh no I didn't think of that. Also when Rick and Glenn are talking in the tank and Glenn says you know go to the right of the tank both Peter and I in unison went

[01:12:07] which right which right but you know clearly Rick knew which one he meant so I won't dwell on that. Yeah yep cool all right I had a few notes um I liked when Glenn said uh as they were putting guts

[01:12:21] on themselves oh god this is so bad and Rick's like think about something else puppies and kittens and T-dog said dead puppies and kittens. T-dog you wang! That was so funny. I think that prompts the barfing

[01:12:38] and uh I think it's kind of funny that they're foraging for mushrooms early on and then years later we got fungal zombies on The Last of Us I don't know. Yeah I was like wow that's hella early

[01:12:48] to be foraging but I guess smart thinking. And did you have a only on the walking dead moment? Oh so many I think only on the walking dead would we see people literally hanging intestines

[01:13:02] over their shoulders with like bits of like foot and hand there seems like a mild one but you know no I mean hanging intestines on yourself that's kind of intense I would say I was I was gonna say

[01:13:15] only on the walking dead would characters be standing around chit-chatting while an angry mob of zombies is pounding on a thin layer of glass between you and them. Just looking at them like

[01:13:25] oh huh look at that they're mad. Yeah look at that they're gonna get in pretty soon probably. What is the definition of looting? They seem angry that we're here. Should I take this necklace? Is it pretty do you like it is it pretty?

[01:13:34] What do you guys think? Zombies? That one doesn't like it. All right back it's time for listener moans groans and grunts. First up we have Gloria Lettery-Hernan who says looking forward to this can't wait to see some

[01:14:13] season one peeps and she's put three zombie emojis and I'm gonna name them Jackie, Jim and Morales. So cute. Jennifer McGinley says if I ever find my family I'm gonna tell them about Wayne Dunlop

[01:14:28] but you didn't though did you Mr Grimes? Nope you were orange backpack guy Rick right from the off. Yes he was. Maybe it was off screen. Maybe. When Rick and Michonne meet up in the

[01:14:43] spin-off he should be like I need to tell you about Wayne Dunlop. He's like who the fuck? Wayne Dunlop spin-off. Now Alma Contreras says I love these first episodes everyone is so grossed out and disturbed by having to kill walkers let alone slather themselves with the guts.

[01:15:02] My fave scene is Glenn and Rick walking with the walkers. Come to think of it this whole episode is outstanding. Nice. Jim Hall says walkers in this episode display some impressive running skills it's a good start of bonding for Rick and Glenn.

[01:15:18] Merle gets left behind which is worrying for him yeah I'd say so. Rick reuniting with Carl, Lori and Shane is such an emotional scene that gets me every time wait we didn't see that

[01:15:29] that's next week right? Yeah. Jim is looking into the future. Spoilers I remember falling in love with the show then because it was about family not zombies. Lori can't believe her eyes she's

[01:15:40] just had sex in the woods with Shane and Shane seemed shocked to see Rick too hmm wonder why? I also love Glenn driving back in his red sports car alarm blaring but that noise is most likely

[01:15:51] what draws the walkers to the quarry in the next few days. Oops! I do love these first yeah that's pretty dumb actually I do love these first few episodes though I love how Rick is seen as an

[01:16:00] immediate leader as he's dressed as a police officer and he just slots in this position straight away to the Atlanta scavenge group and then over Shane at the quarry. Yeah he does. That's what he does yep for better or worse. Chandra Wright says again I thought the walkers

[01:16:14] moved uncharacteristically fast you know Chandra neither of us said that but they were quite fast in this episode yeah that was another of the sort of variant characteristics that they displayed yeah they were running after the charger Glenn was driving using rocks to smash things and good

[01:16:28] lord that one guy scale defense those early day zombies were downright spry the axe aka hatchet Rick Carrey's made its first appearance here I never realized that seeing Jackie and knowing

[01:16:40] what's coming the moment Rick told Andrea how to take the safety off her gun because she might have a reason to use it someday it was pretty tragic even though I didn't really like what her character

[01:16:48] developed into she shoots herself she does she'd been bit I found myself paying special attention to Morales because I knew he would later fall in with the saviors yes and our boy Darrell is going

[01:17:00] to pop him without a thought yeah Merle started out as quite the asshole but honestly his character grew on me a little towards the end and I think Mark Michael Rooker is a lot of fun to watch

[01:17:10] I don't think catching his own be chopping up and spreading all over you would have been the naturally obvious way to evade them Rick went dark fast I mean yeah yeah yeah I know records

[01:17:23] uh what's his name Merle he he grew on you and there's a part of me that's like well they had this abusive father and I always think about this quote from uh Samantha LaRusso Daniel LaRusso's

[01:17:37] daughter in Cobra Kai who said something like you know everyone's got a sob story but that doesn't give you the right to be a bully so I I go back and forth between how much I think where I usually go

[01:17:50] is if people are remorseful then I have a lot of empathy but you still need to face consequences for what you did but I don't want to start talking about Negan so let's move on we've got a few

[01:18:00] seasons to go yeah oh god yeah that's right talk about Negan again uh Dabolino Bob Grippy says the very first scene flipped over truck equals apocalypse right from the start Shane was

[01:18:13] dipping his fries in Rick's burger ketchup oh I guess this is back to um the first episode the conversations they have is one of those everyday talks where they're unified with some stuff different points of view on other stuff and you never know there was an undercurrent of

[01:18:28] betrayal brewing even back then was there probably right from the start Shane was probably my favorite character he was that loyal friend and partner on duty on duty partner and Rick's only visitor in the

[01:18:39] hospital at the time back in 2010 I thought Rick waking up at the hospital was too derivative as that was the place where Alice woke up in the original Resident Evil and Jim in 28 Days Later

[01:18:49] yep prior to Lenny James being in the episode I like the show once he showed up I was absolutely hooked it was Morgan and that was the heart and his struggle to deal with his turned wife

[01:19:02] leaving him to tears over the matter that part in particular always makes me get teary totally yeah I so enjoy I didn't even remember enjoying his performance because we always like the more

[01:19:12] Lenny James was in it the more you realized how great he was so now going back I have a new appreciation for his performance in the pilot yeah absolutely um Dina from Massachusetts says

[01:19:24] dear Lucy and Jason I think I mentioned Jason at the meetup in Boston that I listened to original coverage during my rewatch a year ago I've no idea how I found out your coverage of the rewatch of

[01:19:34] The Walking Dead is just awesome the analytical deep dive that you bring is absolutely brilliant such witness richness richness that was me Dina sorry uh you may not hear from me a lot probably

[01:19:44] a good thing because I am now on rewatch round three and maybe six times with certain episodes it's like crack although I haven't tried crack my son the one heading to film school no longer has

[01:19:54] a snobby attitude to our little show the Daryl Murrell gladiator scene finally snagged him when Daryl Turrell Daryl Daryl Turrell Murrell off sorry Daryl tells Murrell off try saying that quickly

[01:20:06] and storms back to the prison he said yeah now I get why I now get why Daryl is your favorite character I am a fabulous mother and can now die in peace congratulations Dina um I don't

[01:20:17] understand why just because you've seen it three times means that we're not going to hear from you I'm sure you have thoughts that you've never shared with anyone absolutely tell us what they are

[01:20:28] um p.s you asked me to tell you about my former romance novelist days so you can only blame yourselves for dismissive I hopped on the e-pub train in the early 2000s after I gave up on New

[01:20:38] York publishing and when I got the rights back in 2012 I published on Amazon I made about five dollars they are romance novels but they are also love letters to places Jason you may appreciate

[01:20:49] this as you once roamed the same streets in the 1990s I'd walk to work from back bay to Cambridge and pass this gloriously dilapidated Manchester called Charlesgate because I was a broken and

[01:20:59] tortured soul I fell in love these were the early days of the internet so I had to do all my research at the library and Emerson's college archives as the college used it as a dorm at that point

[01:21:09] and of course it was supposedly haunted some film bought it some firm bought it and during reconstruction the lead architect took me on a tour and showed me all these hidden walls and

[01:21:17] blueprints and I was in heaven anyway the book is about the building in the 1990s and 1890s a family curse and a pirate ghost my other two books were also love songs to places one is set in Santa Cruz

[01:21:29] Lost Boys Jason don't forget to re-watch and the other is about an old cake factory near Boston now I write for myself I just write for myself and I blush recently I wrote a 10 installment fanfic

[01:21:42] about Daryl do not scorn me Dina I would never scorn a fanfic writer don't worry about that uh Dina goes on it was for a good cause my bestie had to go away for a month I could only receive

[01:21:52] letters she has a crush on Daryl as he is broken and tortured like my building so she asked for a naughty Daryl story it was a lot of fun to write and it was more fun to torture my 17 year old

[01:22:02] every time he spotted me at my laptop he said mom are you writing porn again jeez so of course she received a bonus blooper reel about children interrupting a mother writing very bad porn

[01:22:11] example there may have been a line about a possum pocket however the non-blooper reel was pretty good porn I may have a new career Dina I want to read this thing our listeners are going to want

[01:22:22] this we're going to want this this is you know what you're doing girl you got to get this out there do it send links I mean um I know Claire Letterer she writes it's another listener of

[01:22:34] ours who's uh guested with us occasionally she writes Walking Dead fan fiction and posts it I don't know if you've thought about posting it um Dina but um yeah I think people are going

[01:22:45] to want this so Claire's stuff is great as well and yeah we love to share it we love to see if you could yeah I'll look up your um your Amazon fiction that's already up there and put a link in

[01:22:55] the show notes just in case people want to check it out get those five dollars up that was great all right we have a few calls here's uh Penny on episode one I just finished my re-watch of

[01:23:10] the pilot of Walking Dead and it is still so affecting even though I've probably watched it 20 times I had the hardest time ever not letting it just roll over to the next episode I often

[01:23:31] watch Walking Dead just in the background it's my comfort show I know that's weird what really struck me this time around was how visceral all the dead bodies were we've gotten kind of hardened

[01:23:47] to it after watching this for 12 years but seeing it all through Rick's eyes and just how gruesome it was and how sad he was and revolted he was really brought it home to me this way in a way

[01:24:05] that I haven't felt in a long time I'm so glad you guys are doing a re-watch I'm really excited to watch the show with you slowly it's gonna be great ciao ciao yeah I felt the same way I mean

[01:24:24] if you've listened to the podcast you've heard us say that uh Penny mentioned you mentioned that you had a hard time not going forward and watching the next one which reminds me our schedule our

[01:24:37] recording schedule for season one is kind of weird because Lucy has a lot of work trips and things this month so we're kind of batch recording sometimes so but we're releasing weekly so I would

[01:24:54] recommend I'm going to put up posts I just decided for all of the season one episodes at the Podcastica Facebook group and you can watch them at your own pace and write uh send in your

[01:25:07] feedback then if you want to and then we'll have feedback whenever we end up recording and season two will be saner yeah yeah hopefully yeah all right so what we will we'll figure it

[01:25:20] out so here's Elena from Massachusetts hey hi Jason and Lucy it's Elena calling from Massachusetts and um I'm listening to your first episode of the Walking Dead re-watch which I've been so looking forward to you guys doing I've watched the series I've watched the first like maybe I

[01:25:40] think four seasons three times um and then the rest maybe just once or twice but anyway listening to you I'm getting chills listening to you describe your feelings of watching re-watching uh the first

[01:25:56] episode because I didn't have I don't have cable I didn't have cable when Walking Dead came out so it wasn't until 2011 when I would buy I bought the first season on iTunes um I was convinced to

[01:26:12] do it by this guy who was ringing me up at a CVS we were talking about horror films and he said oh have you watched The Walking Dead I said no you know my best friend has told me about it but I

[01:26:23] don't have cable and he's like oh you can buy it on iTunes so I bought um I bought the I bought it and I remember watching that first episode and I watched it the day before Hurricane Irene hit

[01:26:43] oh my goodness the east coast of course it um affected New York a lot more than it affected Boston Massachusetts but we lost power for the first time like ever where I had where I was

[01:26:56] living and um it affected me I was so involved with this story that I remember being scared to go outside and I was like I have to go to the shed to get I don't know like a flashlight or something

[01:27:10] and I walked outside and I'm walking to the shed and I'm looking around and you know everything's laid laid waste and I'm just like oh my god if there's a zombie over there what am I gonna do

[01:27:23] so I was really careful and walking around and when you know brought a knife with me to go into the shed in case there was a zombie in there I could I could um you know bust its head but

[01:27:35] anyway just listening to this is bringing back such fond memories of being scared out of my wits and loving that first season and loving that first episode I'm so glad you guys are doing

[01:27:48] this rewatch I am I am so excited anyway thanks for all of the all of the entertainment and I just love listening to you guys and um anyway thanks for doing this it's it's just the best thanks bye

[01:28:04] I'm glad there was nobody innocent out there just like hanging out because they may have been stabbed um that happens to me a lot when I watch horror movies almost every time I get more freaked

[01:28:15] out like walking down my hall and going anywhere dark I'm sure that's that's such a nice email a nice voicemail to receive it's funny and uh Elena wrote to us after she sent in her voicemail it

[01:28:31] says hi Jason and Lucy a few minutes ago I sent a voice message expressing my excitement for your Walking Dead rewatch while I was laughing on the message I wanted to let you know how much your

[01:28:40] podcast means to me during these brutally horrific times we're all living in I'm having a pretty rough time keeping things together the world feels broken and the horror is unrelenting listening to your podcast is providing momentary psychic relief which I'm so grateful I couldn't have

[01:28:55] possibly verbalized this on the message without breaking down but I do want you and all the hosts on the PodcastCon network to know that you're reaching people on a deeper level than you may

[01:29:05] realize oh Elena I hope things get easier yeah I just try to pretend it's not happening and have fun shove our fingers in our ears and hope for the best la la let's watch a show it's all good but I'm happy we can be a distraction for you

[01:29:29] all right that is our show episode 549 thanks so much for listening everybody hope you're enjoying this I'm having a great time I wasn't sure how much fun it would be but it's really fun no it's good fun next episode will be The Walking Dead season one episode three

[01:29:44] tell it to the frogs which is the one with the frog zombies if I remember right frogpocalypse if you want to write in or leave us a voice message about frogpocalypse you can find all our contact information at podcastica.com and send in your ribbit sounds

[01:30:04] and while you're there please check out our other podcasts one of which is Yellowjackets WTF another off-season show but we record try to record monthly and if you haven't checked out that show it's pretty crazy it's super fucked up and awesome there's great music and good acting and

[01:30:22] I love it I was on a non-podcast, a network podcast oh what was that it's called Vulgar History and I was talking about some of my academic research with my good friend Ann Foster so you can check that out it just got released today

[01:30:39] but we recorded a couple weeks ago I remember that yeah okay that's great how was it great good fun not as good right though yeah it was good it was different Jason it was just different okay sometimes different is good

[01:30:54] that's awesome you send me a link and I'll put it in the show notes I will okay I will great I'm gonna listen to it all right and also this episode is made possible by Patreon supporters like Sarah Goodman who pledged their support at patreon.com

[01:31:07] slash Jason Kovacic so thank you so much to Sarah and that is it that is our show thanks for listening don't get fit Bronson Adams